1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE


       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING


       3                         COMMITTEE






       6             Proceedings held on Tuesday, December 2,


       7   2008, commencing at 5:04 p.m., City Hall, Council


       8   Chambers, 1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before


       9   Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State


      10   of Florida at Large.




      12   PRESENT:


      13        ART GRAHAM, Chair.

                STEPHEN JOOST, Vice Chair.

      14        REGGIE BROWN, Committee Member.

                JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.

      15        RAY HOLT, Committee Member.

                JACK WEBB, Committee Member.

      16        DON REDMAN, Committee Member.



           ALSO PRESENT:


                JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

      19        SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

                BILL KILLINGSWORTH, Planning and Dev Dept.

      20        KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.

                FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.

      21        SHANNON ELLER, Office of General Counsel.

                RICK CAMPBELL, Research Assistant.

      22        MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.

                MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.


                                 -  -  -








           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   December 2, 2008                        5:04 p.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good afternoon, everyone.


       5             Let the record show it's Tuesday,


       6        December 2nd.  It's about four minutes after


       7        5:00 p.m.  This is the Land Use and Zoning


       8        Committee.


       9             And let's start over here with Mr. Crofts,


      10        and let's introduce ourselves.


      11             MR. CROFTS:  My name is John Crofts.  I'm


      12        representing the Planning and Development


      13        Department.


      14             MR. KELLY:  Sean Kelly, Planning and


      15        Development.


      16             MR. AVERY:  Ken Avery, Planning and


      17        Development.


      18             MS. ELLER:  Shannon Eller, General


      19        Counsel's Office.


      20             MR. REDMAN:  Don Redman, Council


      21        District 4.


      22             DR. GAFFNEY:  Councilman Gaffney,


      23        District 7.


      24             MR. HOLT:  Ray Holt, District 11.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm Art Graham, District 13.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. JOOST:  Stephen Joost, Group 3


       2        at-large.


       3             MR. BROWN:  Reginald Brown, District 10.


       4             MR. WEBB:  Jack Webb, City Council,


       5        District 6.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Brown, I want to welcome


       7        you to LUZ.  I think you started off on a good


       8        one.


       9             Just for the information of the audience,


      10        I'm going to go through the agenda real fast and


      11        let everyone know the bills that we will be


      12        voting on today.  I decided to start doing this


      13        several weeks ago so people don't sit in the


      14        audience for a couple of hours and realize we're


      15        not taking any action on their bill.


      16             So I'll go through and let you know up


      17        front if we're going to be voting on your bill


      18        or not.


      19             That all being said, we'll start with the


      20        agenda on page 2.  The entire first page,


      21        2005-1228, 2006-24, and 2006-220, we're taking


      22        no action on any of those.


      23             2006-658, 2007-581, 2007-1086, we're taking


      24        no action on those.


      25             Top of page 4.  2008-414, -416, -418, we're





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        taking no action on those.


       2             Top of page 5.  -517-, -541, -542, -546, no


       3        action on none of those.


       4             Page 6.  -549, -550, -552, -562, no action


       5        on any of those.


       6             Page 7.  -565, we're taking action; -784,


       7        we're taking no action; -799, we're taking no


       8        action; -840, we're taking no action.


       9             (Mr. Huxford enters the proceedings.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Page 8, -854, no action;


      11        -880, no action; -889, we're taking action on


      12        that one; -890, no action; -891, no action;


      13        -892, we're taking action; -893, we're taking


      14        action; -929, we're taking action on that one as


      15        well.


      16             -930, -931, -934, we're taking action on


      17        those three.  -935, no action; -936, no action;


      18        -937, yes -- I'm sorry.  -970, yes; -984, no


      19        action.


      20             All of page 12, we're taking no action.


      21             All of page 13, we're taking no action.


      22        Actually, we're referring -- we're amending or


      23        rereferring one of those.


      24             All of 14, we're taking no action.


      25             All of 15, we're taking no action.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And that concludes the agenda.


       2             Okay.  That all being said, let's turn to


       3        the top of page 5, 2008-517.  There's a public


       4        hearing.  We'll open the public hearing.


       5             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


       6        public hearing and take no action.


       7             Bottom of page 6.  2008-562, we'll open


       8        that public hearing.


       9             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      10        public hearing and take no action.


      11             Top of page 7.  2008-565.  We'll open that


      12        public hearing.


      13             We have one speaker, Joe Jamerson.


      14             Sir, come on down.


      15             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Name and address for the


      17        record, and you have three minutes to tell us


      18        why.


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Joe Jamerson, 1755 Royal


      20        Fern Lane.


      21             Thank you.


      22             I want to, first of all, thank you for


      23        allowing me to speak on behalf of Mandarin


      24        Assembly of God.


      25             Ladies and gentlemen, we're asking you for





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        your support for our church, for our


       2        congregation that consists of over 300 Mandarin


       3        families as well as the many Mandarin residents


       4        that look to our church to provide ministry for


       5        their families.


       6             We're asking you to support the Mandarin


       7        community by granting a waiver on our request


       8        for a new sign.  The sign is precisely the same


       9        size, the same shape, and the same location as


      10        our current sign.  The only difference is that


      11        the new sign would have an LED message board.


      12        The message board would be aesthetically


      13        pleasing, the color of amber, not red.


      14             To kind of briefly review how we've arrived


      15        at where we are today, previously we were told


      16        that our request for a new sign should pass


      17        without -- the waiver without changes, but the


      18        committee's recommendation was changed at the


      19        last moment because of one person's voice.  His


      20        voice was heard over 300 people that represent


      21        Mandarin, who are part of the ministries of our


      22        campus.


      23             Our church demonstrates the spirit of


      24        cooperation as well as community.  We've made


      25        five concessions despite the fact that we were





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        told that we would not have to make any


       2        compromises to be granted the waiver, and


       3        despite the fact that our lone protester has


       4        made no compromises.  So our compromises have


       5        been:  We've changed the color of the sign from


       6        red to amber.  It's not going to be a


       7        nonscrolling sign; it will be a stationary sign.


       8             There was in our initial plan a little


       9        round globe that was to be lit.  That will not


      10        be lit.  The interior lit part of the sign will


      11        be removed.  And we've even consented to put a


      12        timer on the sign so that the sign will be


      13        turned off at night and then relit in the


      14        morning so it will not present a safety hazard.


      15             As a point of protest, you may hear that


      16        Loretto Road is a typical residential street,


      17        but the truth is it's a major thoroughfare and


      18        it is by no stretch of the imagination a typical


      19        residential street.


      20             There's also already interior lit signage


      21        at the convenience store that's very close to


      22        the church as well as the end of both streets


      23        and St. Augustine and San Jose.


      24             And as just kind of an aside, we formerly


      25        had an interior lit sign several years ago





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        before we bought our new property, and now we


       2        have our other sign.


       3             I want to assure you that all care has been


       4        taken to assure the aesthetic appeal of our


       5        sign, as our new sign will be much nicer than


       6        the current one, which is kind of old and


       7        rundown.


       8             Finally, many in our community are asking


       9        for a ministry for their children, their


      10        families, education, as well as the Spanish and


      11        Portuguese-speaking residents.  Therefore, this


      12        sign will enable us to better serve Mandarin.


      13        We feel that it would be unfair and unjust to


      14        deny the waiver request, especially after the


      15        manner in which we have openly demonstrated our


      16        spirit of compromise and community.


      17             We're asking you to please grant our waiver


      18        and we thank you very much for allowing us to


      19        speak tonight.


      20             Thank you.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      22             Your timing is pretty good.  You had four


      23        seconds left.


      24             MR. JAMERSON:  I worked on it today.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Seeing there's no further speakers, we will


       2        close that public hearing.


       3             MR. WEBB:  Move to grant.


       4             MR. HOLT:  Second.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  There's an amendment to


       6        grant and it's been seconded.


       7             Can we hear from Ms. Eller?


       8             MS. ELLER:  Thank you.


       9             Through the Chair, is -- the motion to


      10        grant, does it include the conditions that were


      11        read into the record by this previous speaker?


      12        I heard about five conditions.


      13             MR. WEBB:  Through the Chair, I believe


      14        they do, but I'll get confirmation of that from


      15        Planning.


      16             MR. KELLY:  Through the Chair to


      17        Councilmember Webb, I would reiterate, I guess,


      18        the conditions of what we were -- the department


      19        was contemplating, was that any internal


      20        illumination would be limited to the changing


      21        message device only.


      22             Additionally, it will be a static message


      23        and may not change more than once every three


      24        minutes, that there be no scrolling or fade-in.


      25             And, additionally, that the sign would





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        comply with the 20-foot setback of the district.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let the record show I see


       3        the applicant shaking his head yes.


       4             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  So, Ms. Eller, that's yes.


       6             MS. ELLER:  Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We have a motion and


       8        a second on the amendment to grant the waiver.


       9             Any further discussion?


      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  All in favor of the


      12        amendment signify by saying aye.


      13             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.


      15             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      17        approved the amendment.


      18             MR. WEBB:  Move to grant.


      19             MR. HOLT:  Second.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill has been moved and


      21        seconded to grant.


      22             Any further discussion on the bill?


      23             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the


      25        ballot.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             (Committee ballot opened.)


       2             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


       6             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       7             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       8             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      10        the vote.


      11             (Committee ballot closed.)


      12             MS. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      14        approved 2008-565.


      15             2008-784.  We will open the public hearing.


      16             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      17        public hearing and take no further action.


      18             -799, we'll open the public hearing.


      19             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      20        public hearing and take no further action.


      21             Top of page 8.  2008-854.  We'll open the


      22        public hearing.


      23             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      24        public hearing and take no further action.


      25             -889, we have a motion to withdraw.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. WEBB:  Move to withdraw.


       2             MR. JOOST:  Second.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded


       4        to withdraw.


       5             Any discussion on the withdrawal?


       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the


       8        ballot.


       9             (Committee ballot opened.)


      10             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)


      11             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      12             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      14             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      15             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      16             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      18        the vote.


      19             (Committee ballot closed.)


      20             MS. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      22        withdrawn -889.


      23             You'll have to give me just a second.  I'm


      24        having a little problem with my queue here.


      25             All right.  We're good again.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             All right.  Bottom of page 8 and top of


       2        page 9, 2008-890 and -891, those are companions,


       3        so we'll open that public hearing.


       4             Seeing no speakers for neither one of


       5        those, we'll continue that public hearing and


       6        take no further action.


       7             2008-892 and -893.  We will open that


       8        public hearing.


       9             And I have several cards here, so we will


      10        start at the beginning.


      11             We're going to be speaking on both -892 and


      12        -893 at the same time, so you come up and give


      13        your name and address for the record and you've


      14        got three minutes to speak.


      15             And we will start off -- as I call your


      16        name, make your way down front -- there's plenty


      17        of empty seats -- so we can kind of expedite


      18        this process.


      19             Before we do that, let's do ex-parte


      20        communications so you guys will know who's


      21        talked to who.


      22             Let's start on the end with Mr. Webb.


      23             MR. WEBB:  No.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  No.


      25             Mr. Brown.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. BROWN:  No.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Joost.


       3             MR. JOOST:  Yes.  I've talked -- I've


       4        spoken with Mr. Eric Green and Dave Kaufman of


       5        the Port Authority in my office, and we just


       6        discussed various aspects of the project.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes, sir.


       8             MR. WEBB:  I apologize.  I do rise to


       9        declare ex-parte with Mr. Kaufman as well about


      10        the project about two weeks ago.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  I didn't see you rise, sir.


      12             MR. WEBB:  I remain seated to declare


      13        ex-parte.  Thank you.  Of course with my height,


      14        it's hard to tell.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman -- no ex-parte


      16        for Mr. Redman?


      17             MR. REDMAN:  No.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Dr. Gaffney.


      19             DR. GAFFNEY:  Yes.  I too declare ex-parte


      20        communication.  I spoke with Mr. Green and


      21        Mr. Kaufman in my office in reference to some of


      22        the issues on that.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Holt.


      24             MR. HOLT:  Mr. Chairman, I have met with


      25        Eric Green, Rick Ferrin, and Dave Kaufman today





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        and the day before yesterday.  I also met with


       2        Al Millar and Mickey Baldwin today, and had a


       3        public meeting on this out in the community


       4        about a year ago.


       5             And those are the only people.  I've met


       6        with them on numerous occasions, but those are


       7        the most recent.


       8             Thank you.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have taken a tour of the


      10        facility with Eric Green, and I have met with --


      11        specifically dealing with the -- with the


      12        rezoning, I've met with Eric Green with the


      13        Port.


      14             Mr. Brown.


      15             MR. BROWN:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.


      16             I also had a conversation with Mr. Green


      17        and Mr. Kaufman on 12/1 just generalizing the


      18        concerns that they had about Mayport.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  I think that's it.


      20             Let's go with the first speaker.  Once


      21        again, I'll call you two at a time.  When you


      22        hear your name, please make your way down front


      23        so we can expedite this process.


      24             I need your name and address for the


      25        record.  There's a digital clock in front of you





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        so you know you have three minutes to speak.


       2        There's also this light tree here (indicating).


       3        When the light turns yellow, know that you have


       4        one minute left to conclude your comments.


       5             That being said, we have several cards


       6        here, so let's see if we can get through this.


       7        The first one is Andrew Miller, followed by


       8        Lucy -- I'm sorry if I butcher your last name --


       9        Marhefka.


      10             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Marhefka.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sorry, ma'am.


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That's all right.


      13             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, name and address,


      15        please.


      16             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Andrew Miller.


      17        Address is 1001 1st Street, Neptune Beach.


      18             Good evening, committee members.  I want to


      19        first thank you for taking the time to listen to


      20        our concerns.


      21             I object to the proposed amendment for many


      22        reasons.  First and foremost, there are known


      23        and unknown environmental consequences to the


      24        Timucuan Preserve, manatees in the St. Johns


      25        River.  Bunker C fuel has been proven to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        devastate and even kill human beings who breathe


       2        in its emissions.  And the agreed upon policies


       3        of our comp plan are being subverted.


       4             However, I understand and appreciate that


       5        many of your concerns had to do with the


       6        economic revitalization of the Village of


       7        Mayport, and I agree that this is a valid


       8        concern.  It is to this concern that I wish to


       9        speak to you tonight.


      10             The proponents of the amendment have argued


      11        that the cruise terminal will be a boom to the


      12        local economy.  But upon further review, any


      13        benefit will be minimal, especially when


      14        compared to the benefit provided by other


      15        strategies, namely, the Mayport Visioning Plan.


      16             The Mayport Visioning Plan centers around


      17        the allure of ecotourism and thus provides a


      18        better opportunity for economic growth and


      19        security in the Village of Mayport.


      20             Right now over 55 million U.S. travelers


      21        are classified as ecotourists, which means they


      22        describe themselves as interested in nature,


      23        culture, and heritage tourism, and this number


      24        is growing.


      25             Current estimates find that ecotourism is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        among the fastest growing travel trends as


       2        evidenced by the increase in recreational visits


       3        to national parks from 220 million to


       4        277 million in just 14 years, and that's an


       5        increase of 25 percent.


       6             Now, this increase in ecotourism represents


       7        not just more people, but more money.  Spending


       8        on ecotourism activities rose almost 30 percent


       9        in recent years.  Due to increases like these,


      10        ecotourism is estimated to soon be a $77 billion


      11        market.


      12             Now, this would represent 5 percent of


      13        overall U.S. travel and tourism market.  So in a


      14        word, ecotourism and all the money that is spent


      15        on it is increasing, whereas traditional


      16        tourism, on the other hand, which includes


      17        cruises, is expected to experience no growth.


      18             Florida and Mayport specifically is in a


      19        prime position to capitalize on these trends


      20        because of its natural beauty and historical


      21        significance.  Such potential is evidenced in


      22        other areas of Florida like the Space Coast,


      23        which has been ranked 11th in the world among


      24        ecotourist destinations that give the most


      25        enriching experience.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             But we can also look at Madeira Beach,


       2        which now proudly boasts its John's Pass area, a


       3        haven for ecotourists.  John's Pass was a


       4        long-standing fishing community that fell on


       5        hard times and transformed itself into an


       6        extremely successful working waterway.  They


       7        started with a 1,000-foot boardwalk that went to


       8        public access to the water with restaurants and


       9        shops.  And it is now, according to the


      10        Convention and Visitors Bureau, the most visited


      11        destination in Pinellas County.  It is this type


      12        of area that the Mayport Visioning Plan hopes to


      13        emulate, and it is these examples of economic


      14        success which ecotourism could bring to the


      15        Mayport village, but you must first vote no on


      16        this amendment.


      17             Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, hold on a second.  We


      19        have a question for you.


      20             Mr. Holt.


      21             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


      22             Thank you, sir, for coming down.


      23             I saw you at the last council meeting and


      24        wanted to make sure that you would be here


      25        because it seems that you have some expertise in





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        this area.  I wanted to get -- a couple of


       2        questions for you.


       3             One is, what do you feel like we -- I


       4        guess, from a City standpoint or just from a


       5        private investment standpoint could be done to


       6        bring about ecotourism?


       7             You know, we've been -- that plan has been


       8        out there for eight years, and I don't see any


       9        more investment than was out there eight years


      10        ago in the way of charter fishing or kayaking or


      11        anything like that.  What do you think could be


      12        done to improve that?


      13             And, secondly, what is it that you feel


      14        like the cruise terminal would do to harm the


      15        prospect of ecotourism in the future?


      16             MR. MILLER:  Well, I'll address the first


      17        question first.  The first step would be to


      18        reject the pending amendments.  If the cruise


      19        terminal is allowed to exist in Mayport,


      20        ecotourism will fail.


      21             MR. HOLT:  Why?


      22             MR. MILLER:  Why?  Because nobody -- no


      23        ecotourist wants to go see the natural wonders


      24        of a cruise ship.  Tourism -- cruise ships


      25        damage the environment in many ways.  I could go





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        into those.  They also would create a visual


       2        blight for the Timucuan Preserve.


       3             The second step would be to engage the


       4        Mayport Civic Association and other community


       5        organizations.  They have the plan and they want


       6        to talk to you, but they feel like they cannot.


       7             To facilitate their plan, you need to


       8        ensure that public access to the water is


       9        ensured.


      10             The third step would be to pressure the


      11        municipal code officers to enforce the code.


      12        Many of the areas in Mayport are -- have been


      13        determined to be blighted, but these areas are


      14        actually owned by three different companies and


      15        they stand to gain from the blighted condition.


      16             You also asked me how a cruise terminal


      17        would hurt ecotourism.  Ecotourists are


      18        interested in three things:  nature, culture,


      19        and heritage.  The ship itself and the effects


      20        of the ship are incompatible with all these


      21        interests.


      22             A cruise ship that is taller than the


      23        Statue of Liberty is not natural.  It's not


      24        related to the culture of the Timucuan Indians


      25        and it's not related to the Village of Mayport.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        It also has absolutely no heritage, really.


       2        Moreover, the effects of a cruise ship would


       3        negatively affect ecotourism.


       4             Speaking first to the effects on the


       5        natural environment, which you asked me about,


       6        right now the Village of Mayport is across the


       7        river from the Timucuan Preserve.  A cruise ship


       8        will block out the view of the preserve 185 days


       9        a year, or around there.  Its bunker C fuel


      10        emissions would degrade the air and water and


      11        the ships present in the water would threaten


      12        manatees, dolphins and other flora and fauna in


      13        the area.


      14             MR. HOLT:  Let me stop you right there


      15        because I think you're going into more of your


      16        same speech you already said, and I wanted to


      17        kind of focus in on the issue.


      18             When we're talking about ecotourism, we're


      19        essentially talking about, what, four or five


      20        activities, fishing, kayaking, bird watching,


      21        those kinds of things?


      22             If somebody is coming here for charter


      23        fishing, they're going to be going, I don't


      24        know, five, ten miles out to do saltwater


      25        fishing.  If they're going kayaking in the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Timucuan Preserve, they're going to be out on


       2        the other side of the river back in there toward


       3        Kingsley Plantation in that area.


       4             And those things exist right now, and


       5        nothing that you've said there really convinces


       6        me that a cruise ship is going to chase people


       7        off from that.  If I'm out there kayaking up


       8        through Sisters Creek or in the Fort George


       9        inlet, I'm not going to be chased off by a


      10        cruise ship.  If I'm out fishing ten miles out,


      11        I'm not even going to see it.  So you haven't


      12        convinced me that the cruise ship is going to


      13        chase anybody off.


      14             But my first question was, what can be done


      15        to draw people in?  And, I mean, for eight years


      16        we've been -- had this plan of ecotourism and


      17        the City has put many millions of dollars into


      18        improvements in the area, but there's still been


      19        no private investment.


      20             Short of the City going out there and


      21        starting a charter fishing company or a kayaking


      22        program, I don't see what we can do.  I mean,


      23        the private entities kind of have to take over


      24        and say, yeah, there's a good business plan here


      25        to have charter fishing.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And what is it that we can do more that we


       2        haven't to spur ecotourism?  Because I'm not


       3        seeing it.


       4             MR. MILLER:  Well, I'll first take issue


       5        with your statement that there's only certain


       6        categories of ecotourism which you listed.


       7        There's also historical tours, there's


       8        sight-seeing, there's bike riding, there's


       9        things like that.


      10             The Mayport Visioning Plan envisions the


      11        bike tour from north of the Timucuan Preserve,


      12        through it, down to Mayport Village, and


      13        possibly even all the way to St. Augustine.


      14             If there's a giant cruise ship terminal


      15        there, plus a cruise, people are not going to


      16        want to take that bike ride.


      17             In addition, there's fishing that's


      18        available right outside of Mayport Village.  You


      19        do not need to go ten miles inland or ten miles


      20        out to sea.  And I do think that anyone who


      21        kayaks by the area would be scared off by 180 --


      22        however tall that is cruise ship, 210 feet,


      23        something like that.


      24             What can you do differently?  Like I said,


      25        you can engage the Mayport Civic Association.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Talks have broken off with them, and those


       2        things need to be redone.


       3             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       5             MR. MILLER:  Thank you very much.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Lucy, followed by


       7        Linda Moore.


       8             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       9             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you for letting me


      10        speak.


      11             My name is Lucy Marhefka, 1539 Ferndale


      12        Place, Jacksonville, Florida 32207.


      13             I'm here to talk about the jobs that would


      14        be lost if the Mayport cruise terminal project


      15        is not approved.  I also come before you as a


      16        commercial fishing boat owner with my husband


      17        Jerry.  Thirty years ago, we docked the Bandit I


      18        and II in Mayport Village where we bought ice,


      19        fuel, and bait from Matt Roland and subsequently


      20        sold our catch.


      21             I'm in favor of the building of the Mayport


      22        cruise terminal.  Why?  Because I'm concerned


      23        about the jobs that will be lost, including


      24        mine.  At a time when thousands of people in


      25        this country are losing jobs, wouldn't it be





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        prudent to protect jobs where there is a


       2        choice?


       3             Cruise Services USA provides guest handling


       4        services to Carnival's Fascination.  Without a


       5        cruise terminal, 70 of us with Cruise Services


       6        will be out of work.  That's not to mention


       7        other agencies that provide services to the


       8        JaxPort cruise terminal.


       9             Most of us are retired folks, just like


      10        some of the Mayport residents.  We at Cruise


      11        Services are not just a group of professional


      12        people who work together.  We are a team, we are


      13        a family.  To have the opportunity to work with


      14        the public again gives retirement a whole new


      15        meaning.  I call it semi-retirement.  For some


      16        on the team, working at the port is a second or


      17        third part-time job.


      18             The beautifully-designed Mayport cruise


      19        terminal is the perfect opportunity for Mayport


      20        residents to show off their revitalized


      21        village.  Mayport will capture the attention of


      22        many of the nearly 2,600 guests who have cruised


      23        on Carnival's Fascination for 78 sailings per


      24        year.  Mayport will have the opportunity to


      25        display its historical presence.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             The Marine Science Education Center will be


       2        of interest to guests staying in the area before


       3        and/or after their cruise.  Restaurants and


       4        shops could return and dot the waterfront so


       5        guests can enjoy the ambience of Mayport.


       6             That is not to mention overnight stays at


       7        local hotels and motels.  Mayport has done


       8        little to show signs of progress while the


       9        surrounding areas have prospered as a result of


      10        keeping up with the times.


      11             Long-standing Mayport businesses have


      12        closed, leaving empty buildings to fall to


      13        ruin.  Commercial shipping is the shrimping --


      14        pardon me -- is the main industry linked to


      15        Mayport.  Where are all the commercial snapper


      16        boats that once fished out of Mayport?


      17             Before blaming anyone else, look to those


      18        government agencies that have put new rules and


      19        regulations in place.  They are responsible for


      20        the demise of the fishing industry, not those in


      21        favor of building a cruise terminal.


      22             With the presence of the Mayport cruise


      23        terminal, shrimp boats will still grace


      24        Mayport.  Old, broken-down docks will be


      25        replaced with new docks where visitors and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        fishermen alike can access the boats at the


       2        waterfront.


       3             Your village is no different than any other


       4        with historical values.  Mayport is long overdue


       5        for revitalization.  The plans to spiffy up the


       6        village have been gathering dust for years.


       7             I hope you, the members of the City


       8        Council, see building the Mayport cruise


       9        terminal as an opportunity for Mayport's


      10        heritage to be shown to the world.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ma'am.


      12             MS. MARHEFKA:  Yes.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Your time is up, please.


      14             MS. MARHEFKA:  Okay.  Thank you.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Linda Moore, followed by


      16        Mayor John Meserve.


      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      19             I'm Linda Moore, 3802 Biggin Church Road,


      20        Jacksonville 32224.


      21             I have been the pier supervisor at the


      22        current JaxPort location on Heckscher Drive for


      23        the past five years.


      24             Tonight I have several of our staff that


      25        has joined me -- you'll see them here -- and we





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        serve as the Carnival Fascination at the cruise


       2        terminal.


       3             There are many reasons to expand and


       4        locate -- relocate the cruise terminal.  I'd


       5        like to highlight three.  One is growth, one is


       6        employment, and one is the market share.


       7             First on the growth, we continue to grow in


       8        our cruise industry here, and we continue to


       9        have customer satisfaction.


      10             Each sailing, we handle about 2,200


      11        guests.  That's a minimum.  It is our privilege


      12        to show them the southern hospitality that we


      13        have and to promote Jacksonville and the


      14        surrounding area.  Our goal is to exceed their


      15        expectations and give them reasons to revisit


      16        and tell others to come.


      17             Just recently, on November 29th, at our


      18        last cruise, a guest from upper Georgia


      19        approached me and said they had booked three


      20        cruises with Carnival Fascination and they were


      21        bringing their friends.  That's what we want to


      22        hear.


      23             I also want to tell you that our cruise


      24        port has won top awards for customer


      25        satisfaction nationally for two straight years.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Happy customers equals positive returns to our


       2        city, which promotes growth in our cruise


       3        industry.


       4             Jacksonville has already invested time,


       5        money, and energy from a number of sources to


       6        the development of the cruise business.  We do


       7        not want to lose this business for


       8        Jacksonville.  We feel like we can all work


       9        together and be proud of what we have to offer


      10        the cruise industry.


      11             Employment, jobs, of course, has been


      12        addressed.  The last one is the marketing.  The


      13        cruise industry has developed a new marketing


      14        direction, which is the drive market, the guests


      15        that could drive to a cruise terminal.  And


      16        during the past five years, Jacksonville has


      17        become known as having a cruise port.  And


      18        Jacksonville and Mayport are the perfect cities


      19        that fit that new trend for the cruise lines,


      20        for the vacationer to actually drive.


      21             They earn a value vacation.  It gives them


      22        an opportunity to stay in hotels, to visit our


      23        attractions, to eat in our restaurants.  I know


      24        that Visit Jacksonville here has promoted and


      25        done various pre- and post-cruise packages.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Years ago, they didn't have that to offer us.


       2        So that too is a growth in the industry, the


       3        traffic industry, the tourism industry for our


       4        City, and it certainly has put the cruise


       5        tourism designation on the map for


       6        Jacksonville.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


       8             MS. MOORE:  Thank you.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mayor Meserve, followed by


      10        Paul Parsons.


      11             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Mr. Chairman, committee,


      13        I would offer some documentation I'd like to


      14        make a matter of the record and paraphrase from


      15        it.


      16             My name is John Meserve, 2126 Beach


      17        Avenue.


      18             I would start this -- start my comments by


      19        stating I, in no way, represent anything of a


      20        decision by the City of Atlantic Beach, rather


      21        as a private citizen, but one who is relatively


      22        knowledgeable.  I started the Mayport Waterfront


      23        Partnership, was its chairman for eight years,


      24        and was engaged in trying to economically


      25        redevelop the village for many more years.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             During that time, we enjoyed significant


       2        success with infrastructure improvements.  We


       3        put in 5- or $6 million worth of systems,


       4        including a sewer system, an alternative road


       5        around the village, new streetlights and


       6        sidewalks in the village, and an enhanced


       7        vehicle waiting area for the ferry.


       8             I absolutely strongly support the cruise


       9        ship in Mayport Village, not just a -- it would


      10        be the economic engine.  And I will say that


      11        there are probably -- I see two futures for


      12        Mayport Village.  One is cruise ship jobs,


      13        economic stimulus for other growth out there.


      14             The alternative is the ferry shuts down


      15        because it loses a million dollars a year, and


      16        that will go up in the future and there would be


      17        no reason for the Port Authority to keep it


      18        open.  In my view, you shut it -- this City shut


      19        it down because it was losing too much money.


      20        The only way to keep it going and to keep the


      21        shrimping industry is get economic development


      22        in the village, and that means restaurants,


      23        shrimp shacks out there that sell the product


      24        locally and keep them going.


      25             So the alternative is a village that sits





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        at the end of a three-mile stretch of road,


       2        dead end, no economic redevelopment whatsoever.


       3             The commercial -- if you don't know, the


       4        commercial waterfront has a zoning overlay that


       5        we put in place quite a few years ago that says


       6        you can't build housing on the ground floor of


       7        the commercial area, and that was our attempt to


       8        make sure that we didn't let private people


       9        simply build a bunch of private houses and


      10        destroy the waterfront for anybody's use.


      11             So I urge you at this -- that the village


      12        has a wonderful history.  It's not going to go


      13        back to what it was 50 years ago, and we need to


      14        put some economic stimulus so that the rest of


      15        the empty properties out there will have an


      16        economic incentive to redevelop and make it --


      17        bring it to its full potential.


      18             I drove ships in the Navy for 28 years, and


      19        cruise ships do not destroy the environment and


      20        they don't kill sea life.  Certainly they can


      21        have oil spills like anybody else, but we've got


      22        17 ships that sit right out in that area in the


      23        United States Navy at Mayport, they don't


      24        destroy the environment, and a cruise ship is no


      25        different.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And so I urge you to keep this process


       2        going, and I thank you very much.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mayor.


       4             Commissioner Paul Parsons, followed by


       5        Dan Turner, Jr.


       6             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm Commissioner Paul


       8        Parsons, 1970 Mipaula Court, Atlantic Beach,


       9        Florida.


      10             I'm a commissioner in Atlantic Beach.  I am


      11        also past chairman -- after Mayor Meserve and


      12        Mr. Tucker, past chairman of the Mayport


      13        Waterfront Partnership.


      14             I was chairman at the time that we invited


      15        Mr. Holt out to come in and see our village and


      16        enjoyed it and had a wonderful time at it.


      17             There's some things that I thought about


      18        for a long time about this and really didn't


      19        know which way I was going to go with my support


      20        one way or the other.  And about nine months


      21        ago, I made up my mind that I was going to


      22        support the cruise ship terminal.


      23             I'm like Mayor Meserve, that -- I feel that


      24        if you don't do something out there, it's going


      25        to turn into nothing.  When you get rid of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        ferry and everything else, it's going to turn


       2        into a dead-end street and there won't be


       3        anything out there but blight, and it's going to


       4        be worse than it ever was.


       5             I've been -- I was born and raised here,


       6        been out there for all my life.  Went out there


       7        when I was a teenager.  It is said that I had


       8        family that lived out there in the 1850s, so


       9        maybe I'm part Minorcan, I don't know, but I've


      10        been out there for a long time.


      11             As far as their land values go, I don't see


      12        how this could actually hurt any land values


      13        whatsoever.  It's got to do nothing but help


      14        it.  They say they're losing their view from the


      15        river.  Well, for years and years and years,


      16        you've had nothing but the seafood industry


      17        there that blocked their view anyway.  And


      18        without doing something out there, we're going


      19        to let it just go to nothing.  And I have to


      20        support it.  I've talked to most of you


      21        before -- some of you before about it, and I do


      22        totally support it.


      23             That's about all I've got to say about it.


      24        I think it's a great deal.  I think we need to


      25        get it done.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       2             MR. PARSON:  Thank you.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Dan Turner, Jr., followed by


       4        Janice [sic] Thomas.


       5             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       6             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Dan Turner,


       7        Jr.  I live at 2130 Mayport Road.


       8             I differ with what Mayor Meserve says.  I


       9        mean, I haven't abandoned Mayport like some


      10        people I know, but I'm not here to argue about


      11        them or what their past mistakes were in not


      12        developing the village.


      13             But I do like to offer facts with documents


      14        supporting, you know, the statements.  You know,


      15        one needs to keep in mind that three of the four


      16        major cruise companies are convicted


      17        environmental felons with those convictions


      18        occurring since 1996 all the way up to 2008.


      19        Carnival Cruise Lines have violated a Memorandum


      20        of Understanding with the State of Florida three


      21        times, been placed on probation for dumping


      22        sewage in the water.


      23             A floating city, a cruise ship discharges


      24        approximately 1.3 million liters of waste per


      25        day, more than the port city of Haines, Alaska,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        which produces over 1.1 liters per day.  And,


       2        you know, all these ships putting all this


       3        garbage and sewage out in our oceans is going


       4        to, you know, come back at us.


       5             A single large ship visiting the port could


       6        pump out as much as -- sulfur dioxide as 2,000


       7        cars and trucks driving all year-round.  That's


       8        another report.


       9             But, I mean, I could go on and on, show the


      10        security.  When a cruise ship comes in, the


      11        Coast Guard has to go out there and circle


      12        around the ship.  Who's going to pay the taxes


      13        on that?  That's $25,000 per day.  The taxpayers


      14        get stuck with that bill.  Who's going to pay


      15        for the $60 million cruise ship terminal if they


      16        put one in there or build one in there?


      17        Taxpayers once again.


      18             You know, the cruise ships don't put no


      19        money out there.  I've got the impacts here to


      20        ripple effects.  You know, they turn around --


      21        once they get in, they turn around and they hire


      22        their own touring companies so the money would


      23        go back to the cruise ships, not to the


      24        community.  They pay no taxes to the City or


      25        anything like this.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             But I'd be happy to give you-all these


       2        reports to show you statistics after statistics,


       3        what cost we are paying for these cruise ships


       4        doing damage to our environment, the manatees,


       5        the whales, the air we breathe.


       6             Sixty thousand people die every year


       7        because of ship emissions.  They refuse to do


       8        anything about burning bunker C fuel.  Sure, we


       9        might change fuel, but that still doesn't


      10        resolve the fact that you've got them sandwiched


      11        in the community itself.


      12             I'm not going to abandon Mayport.  I'm


      13        going to fight till the end.  If I have to go


      14        all the way up to Washington, D.C., I'm going to


      15        go all the way up there.


      16             And now they're uncovering a lot of this


      17        stuff that's going on.  You know, I say the


      18        Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, not to no


      19        foreign flag cruise ship.  Hotels might benefit


      20        to some degree, but we don't benefit any.


      21        Mayport won't get nothing out of the whole


      22        deal.  All that money goes back to the state, if


      23        there's any, but somebody has got to foot the


      24        bill somewhere.


      25             Thank you very much.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Hold on a second, sir.  We


       2        have a question for you.


       3             Mr. Holt.


       4             MR. HOLT:  Sir, you were here the other


       5        night at City Council and you had made reference


       6        to the fact that there might be other


       7        possibilities, other locations that would fit a


       8        cruise terminal better.


       9             Would you want to elaborate on some of the


      10        other locations that you were talking about?


      11             MR. TURNER:  Well, there was one


      12        location -- 2004, JaxPort did a study.  They did


      13        three studies on 100 acres of land.  Sisters


      14        Creek, they said, oh, that's a perfect site.


      15        You could put in three cruise ships and


      16        everything like this.


      17             MR. HOLT:  At Pine Island, you mean?


      18             MR. TURNER:  At Pine Island.  And then all


      19        of a sudden they back out of it.


      20             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Would the port --


      21             MR. TURNER:  In 2004, they met with --


      22        Mayor Peyton did a tour of Mayport Village.


      23        They had plans back in 2004 to put a cruise ship


      24        in Mayport Village.  Regardless of what grants


      25        we apply for, regardless of what we're trying to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        do to improve our village, they turned a blind


       2        eye to us.


       3             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  So you would be more


       4        supportive of it in Pine Island?


       5             MR. TURNER:  In Pine Island?  Yeah, you can


       6        put a cruise ship in Pine Island.


       7             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Thank you.


       8             MR. TURNER:  Thank you.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Janie Thomas, followed by


      10        John Hannon -- Shannon.


      11             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Mr. Chairman,


      13        Janie Thomas, 95289 Nassau River Road,


      14        Fernandina Beach, executive director for the


      15        Shrimp Producers Association.


      16             I've been involved with the shrimping


      17        industry for 35 years, and more so closely


      18        related to all of the boats and the captains for


      19        the last several years since I've retired from


      20        the river myself.


      21             We're not opposed to the cruise terminal.


      22        We think it's a very good mix for our shrimping


      23        industry and a way for us to survive.  It's a


      24        way for us to market our shrimp all over the


      25        southeastern United States because I do believe





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that the people travel over 500 miles.  And I


       2        don't mean just flying, I'm talking about


       3        driving.  They don't just spend one night here.


       4        They spend several nights.  And they're looking


       5        for going to other places while they're going


       6        here and they don't have to fight all the


       7        traffic going to Canaveral and other areas.


       8             We think that they will take these shrimp


       9        back home with them, just like they did the


      10        oranges years ago.  And we'd like that to be on


      11        the front page of everybody's agenda.  Okay?


      12             So we believe this project will revitalize


      13        this Mayport area, the entire area.  Hey, some


      14        of it may even spill over to Fernandina -- we


      15        hope so -- and create, ultimately, jobs.  We


      16        need them.


      17             Thank you very much.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      19             John Shannon, followed by Dorothy Wardell.


      20             Please make your way up front when I call


      21        your name.


      22             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  John Shannon, 2260


      24        Cypress Landing Drive.


      25             The lady that just spoke to you, I believe





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        she said she's from Fernandina.  I believe


       2        that's about 25, 30 nautical miles from


       3        Mayport.  I might be wrong.  I believe it is.


       4             First of all, I want to talk to you a


       5        second, if I can, about the cruise ship docking


       6        here, then I want to get into the noise, and if


       7        anybody's done any appropriate traffic studies


       8        on this.


       9             Okay.  We got a ship sitting in Mayport,


      10        going to get on it, we're going to go to the


      11        Bahamas.  We're going to sit on some beautiful


      12        beaches and we're going to snorkel and we're


      13        going to scuba dive and we're going to sit there


      14        with our little umbrella drinks and we're going


      15        to spend our money and we're going to have us a


      16        great time.  Yeah.  Sounds good, don't it?  Book


      17        me on.


      18             Then I'm going to come back and I'm going


      19        to get off that ship because, number one, I'm


      20        wore out spending all my money and having such a


      21        great time, all them beautiful beaches.  And I'm


      22        going to do what in Mayport?  I'm going to look


      23        across the street or, excuse me, the river and


      24        see what?  I'm going to go where?  I'm going to


      25        get on -- I'm going to -- it's the family.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Let's load up and go to the Jacksonville Zoo.


       2        Yeah, right.  Yeah.  You believe that?  I got


       3        some land I want to sell you in the Everglades


       4        back there.


       5             Now, let's get more serious since we got


       6        that out of the way because if it don't make


       7        sense to you, I don't know what you're


       8        thinking.


       9             You got a ship at 7:00 a.m. to start


      10        sounding off that will blow you out of your


      11        chair at 300 feet easy.  Immigration, deck one,


      12        deck two, deck three, deck four.  And then after


      13        that, they get into telling you, okay, we're


      14        going to start boarding.  And this is how it


      15        sounds to the people in Mayport.  That's how it


      16        sounds.


      17             How would you like to wake up out of your


      18        bed three days a week, four days a week to the


      19        same thing?


      20             We got a nuclear aircraft carrier coming.


      21        It's going to get here.  Our president-elect


      22        isn't going to shoot it down.  Everybody knows


      23        that.  It ain't going to happen.


      24             The first black president of America is not


      25        going to go against the Navy and say, no, you're





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        not going to do that.  How would he like to go


       2        down in history like that?  I don't think so.  I


       3        wouldn't.  I sure wouldn't.


       4             You got a four gate and a five gate on A1A


       5        going into Mayport Village.  That aircraft


       6        carrier along with them four frigates and them


       7        two destroyers has got to be maintained, people


       8        has got to get supplies in and out on this same


       9        road that you want to tell me that you're going


      10        to bring 2,000 people in a week, in the same


      11        direction, and we're going to three lane it and


      12        make one a turn lane?  It won't fit.  It can't


      13        fit.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, your time is up.


      15             MR. SHANNON:  Thank you very much.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Dorothy Wardell.


      17             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  She's not here?


      19             Brian Paradise.  It looks like Paradise.


      20        I'm sorry.  Maybe it's P-a-d-a.


      21             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Brian is not here?


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.


      25             Barbara Goodman, followed by Danny





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        B-e-r-e-n-b-e-r [sic].


       2             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.  I'm Barbara Goodman,


       4        representing the Timucuan Preserve/National Park


       5        Service, 13165 Mt. Pleasant Road.


       6             And while I greatly appreciate the speakers


       7        that speak on behalf of protecting the preserve,


       8        this time I respectfully disagree and would like


       9        to put on record that the Timucuan Preserve does


      10        not object to the changes in the comprehensive


      11        plan and zoning in order to put a cruise


      12        terminal at Mayport.


      13             We look forward to working cooperatively


      14        with the Port in addressing the challenges that


      15        will come from traffic and viewshed impacts and


      16        on keeping the ferry permanently in place.


      17             We also look forward to working with the


      18        Port on developing and expanding tourism


      19        opportunities that will come as a result of a


      20        cruise terminal in Mayport.


      21             Currently, we have several bus loads of


      22        cruise passengers who visit the preserve before


      23        and after the cruises that are coming to


      24        Jacksonville, and we expect that that would


      25        expand once it moves to Mayport because of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        proximity to both Fort Caroline and the Kingsley


       2        Plantation.


       3             We believe that this plan will bring the


       4        needed economic stimulus to Mayport and


       5        Jacksonville.  And while it's a big change to


       6        the area, will ultimately bring a positive


       7        result.


       8             Thank you.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      10             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Let me help you.


      11             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Danny Berenberg.  I'm the


      14        managing partner of Gift Counsel.  We are


      15        located at 200 Executive Way in Ponte Vedra.


      16             So I don't sound like I'm a foreigner here


      17        to this conversation, my family settled


      18        Pelotes Island just before statehood here in


      19        Florida.  That's ten generations back, so we've


      20        had a lot of time here and we're a family that


      21        enjoys going out to Mayport.  We buy too much


      22        seafood there and probably should stop that a


      23        little bit.


      24             But at any rate, my firm represents or has


      25        represented a number of the attractions here in





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Jacksonville.  We're a fund-raising


       2        organization.  We raise money for the zoo and


       3        for the Times Union Center and for the


       4        Equestrian Center, so we are involved in the


       5        attractions to the community and what that does


       6        for the broader Jacksonville community.


       7             We've enjoyed those relationships and we've


       8        enjoyed to see the tourism growing here.  I'm


       9        also a member of Visit Jacksonville, board of


      10        directors.  I'm honored to serve there, and I


      11        figure -- I feel it's a real relevant matter to


      12        the whole community, not just to Mayport, that


      13        this cruise terminal be approved and brought


      14        forward.


      15             It's not just the Mayport community that's


      16        involved here.  It's all the attractions, it's


      17        all the jobs, it's all the commerce.  And as


      18        I've come to the meetings, I think we lose track


      19        of that Jacksonville is not made up of little


      20        entities.  It's one big community trying to help


      21        each other.


      22             I hope you'll give careful consideration to


      23        this cruise terminal and to approve it.  I think


      24        it's needed, and I think it's the future.


      25             Thank you very much.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       2             Donald Harris, followed by Dave Smith.


       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


       5        Donald Harris at I-95 North Airport Road,


       6        represent MMI Hotel Group.


       7             I really would like to support a cruise


       8        line business in regards to hotels.  I tell you,


       9        we didn't have the cruise line -- we didn't have


      10        the cruises this summer and it really impacted


      11        our business on Airport Road.  The majority of


      12        the cruise line ships, probably anywhere from 6


      13        to 7 percent.  And we have one of the larger


      14        hotels on Airport Road.  We actually have four.


      15        But it impacted the Holiday Inn there about


      16        $300,000 a year.


      17             And I think with everything that we got


      18        happening with the economic times that we can't


      19        afford to get -- to have $25 million worth of


      20        economic impact to leave Jacksonville.


      21             I really think that somehow we just got to


      22        figure out a way for -- it's a cruise line,


      23        Mayport, and everything that's happening at the


      24        port, that we can work together.  If there ever


      25        was an opportunity for Jacksonville to get on





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the map in kind of a middle-of-the-road market,


       2        a cruise line, I think, is really our future.


       3             Thank you.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       5             Hold on a second.  We have a question for


       6        you.


       7             MR. JOOST:  I'm sorry, sir.


       8             I'm sorry.  I didn't catch your name.


       9             MR. HARRIS:  Donald, Donald Harris.


      10             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Mr. Harris, did you say


      11        your business was down 60 to 70 percent or


      12        6 to 7?


      13             MR. HARRIS:  Six to 7 percent based on


      14        occupancy points.


      15             MR. JOOST:  All right.  Thank you.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Hold on a second.  We've got


      17        one more.


      18             Dr. Gaffney.


      19             DR. GAFFNEY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      20             Mr. Harris, so from your expertise, how


      21        does it impact the hotel industry as a whole if


      22        you had to estimate?


      23             I mean, is it seasonal or is it something


      24        that really benefit you-all?  Because -- excuse


      25        me -- some of the individuals I know with the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Omni Hotel.


       2             Now, I was also told there's a


       3        possibility -- we don't want to lose it downtown


       4        and have another blighted building.


       5             MR. HARRIS:  Yes, sir.


       6             DR. GAFFNEY:  Is that a possibility?


       7             MR. HARRIS:  Well, one thing to kind of


       8        answer the question -- I think it's two


       9        questions.  Yes, it is seasonally; and, yes, it


      10        represents a huge part of our business during


      11        the slowest part of the season.  Typically --


      12        and we call it, I want to say, our need period,


      13        our value season.  Our summer months ultimately


      14        are slowest.


      15             And I guess when we put together the cruise


      16        line business here in Jacksonville and actually


      17        got it in, it truly was a blessing for us


      18        because that time of the year, we didn't have


      19        any business.  It's typically family reunions,


      20        military reunions.  It was just an added boost


      21        for us.  And it's just a segment of business


      22        that we have kind of built into our projections,


      23        but it is absolutely outstanding for us.


      24             DR. GAFFNEY:  Okay.  Excellent.


      25             Now, how many hotels do you represent,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        roughly?


       2             MR. HARRIS:  I represent roughly about five


       3        hotels on Airport Road that we own and manage.


       4             But for the most part -- I am the chairman


       5        of the Airport Management Council as well as


       6        past president of the Hotel/Motel Association,


       7        so -- well, all the hotels in Jacksonville and


       8        particularly all the hotels on Airport Road, so


       9        we're probably talking about 2,000 rooms.


      10             DR. GAFFNEY:  Thank you very much.


      11             MR. HARRIS:  Thank you.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      13             Hold on a second.  One more question for


      14        you.


      15             MR. JOOST:  Just a quick -- how many


      16        employees is that?


      17             MR. HARRIS:  I have the same employees.


      18        And if we just speak about my company alone, we


      19        employ about 300 employees.  And as far as


      20        Airport Road, we probably represent about 500


      21        employees.


      22             And I've got to say, with the River City


      23        Marketplace that was developed, one of the


      24        things that we were hoping to have is to have


      25        entertainment and having an opportunity for the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        cruise line travelers, the tourists to have an


       2        opportunity to shop, to go to a movie, to go to


       3        different restaurants.


       4             So, in a sense, it really was a blessing


       5        for us to have it.  And I think all the more


       6        reason -- when the folks was building the River


       7        City Marketplace, they prospected, they put in


       8        their projections that certain times of the year


       9        they have a significant amount of cruise line


      10        business, so now we do have something for them


      11        to do.  It really is a plus.


      12             MR. JOOST:  Just real, real quick because


      13        you're in the hotel business.


      14             My personal experience with cruises has


      15        always been -- whenever I've taken one out of


      16        Miami -- I think two times -- I've just flown


      17        down the morning of, got a bus, and got on the


      18        ship, and so -- which kind of coincides with


      19        what some of the people here are saying.


      20             But you're saying in your business, you're


      21        really seeing people stay here overnight?


      22             MR. HARRIS:  Oh, yes, sir.


      23             Yes, we probably have -- with all the


      24        cruises that actually come to Jacksonville,


      25        40 percent of them stay in the hotel.  So if you





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        have -- typically a ship that has 1,200 people,


       2        you're going to have 8- or 900 rooms a night.


       3        And we have a -- we had a specific cruise that


       4        they sponsored 900 folks alone twice a year, and


       5        they pretty much bought the ship, and they all


       6        stayed at our hotel.


       7             MR. JOOST:  Well, thank you.  That's useful


       8        information.


       9             MR. HARRIS:  Thank you.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  David Smith, followed by


      11        Alyce Decker.


      12             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm Dave Smith, and I'm


      14        at 1053 Kings Road, Neptune Beach.


      15             I've been attending City Council meetings


      16        for eight years and speaking at most or all of


      17        them, and I've never lied to the council and I


      18        don't believe I've ever tried to exaggerate


      19        things.  And, at this point in time, I'm four


      20        square in favor of the people of Mayport to


      21        preserve their way of life and their


      22        neighborhood.


      23             You've heard people talk about improvements


      24        the City has made.  We're talking about


      25        sidewalks, streetlights, and a sewer system,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        nothing more than any other average citizen has


       2        been granted in the course of residence in this


       3        area.  If there are other -- other luxuries and


       4        amenities beyond these which the City has given


       5        Mayport, I'm not aware of them.


       6             And, again, my information may not be


       7        perfect, but I think City Council members suffer


       8        that same problem sometimes too.


       9             The idea that the ferry was going to shut


      10        down at one point, I believe this is a matter of


      11        theatrics.  I never believed that the ferry


      12        would shut down.  A mere $200,000 a year to


      13        operate this ferry which connects parts of


      14        District 11 with each other and performs a


      15        function in evacuation and national security,


      16        that was never at risk, and I believe that you


      17        know that and believe that too.


      18             I've heard there's a lack of private


      19        investment in Mayport.  Well, the JPA is not a


      20        private investor either, is it?  How much money


      21        has any cruise line devoted or promised to this


      22        project?  I'm not aware of any of that.


      23             This is not about eminent domain exactly,


      24        but it might as well be if you have a City that


      25        will neglect sidewalks and lampposts leaning at





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        an angle like this (indicating) because somebody


       2        has knocked these cheap lampposts over and they


       3        stay that way for weeks and months before the


       4        City decides to do something.  The media cries


       5        blight.  Sure.  That's because the City has


       6        neglected Mayport.


       7             Finally, if the cruise line is not a


       8        polluter, that opens up a world of


       9        possibilities.  Pine Island would be a great


      10        choice, the Timucuan Preserve itself, or


      11        Atlantic Beach on the ocean which has an


      12        abundance of oceanfront land.  So if it's not a


      13        polluter, those are great choices besides


      14        Mayport and evacuating an entire township.


      15             Thanks for the chance to say these




      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      18             Ms. Decker, followed by Gary Crumley.


      19             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Alyce Decker.


      21        I live at 109 Lost Beach Lane in Ponte Vedra.


      22             I have been a member of the Mayport


      23        Waterfront Partnership Board for nine years and


      24        am currently a practicing urban planner with the


      25        Mellgren Planning Group out of Fort Lauderdale





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        in their St. Augustine office.


       2             This requested land use change from the CGC


       3        category to the water dependent/water related


       4        zoning category is a decision with far-reaching


       5        and unknown consequences.  The decision of let's


       6        move the cruise ship over there is not supported


       7        by current due diligence from a city and a state


       8        12 months into a national recession.


       9             If the cruise ship industry should fail


      10        after this change, any number of other kinds of


      11        industrial uses would be allowed on this small


      12        stretch of potentially public waterfront


      13        property.  The plan, again, in the visioning


      14        statement for public access that the City


      15        Council approved several years ago, as Mayor


      16        Meserve referred, to would be lost.


      17             There is no plan for consequences of the


      18        effects of the recession on these parcels of


      19        land should the cruise ship idea be abandoned


      20        and other invasive uses be allowed.


      21             This industry is counting on the declining


      22        disposable income of a shrinking traveler base


      23        for financial success, yet we are asked to trust


      24        JaxPort's opinion that this will go well.


      25             The word "trust," in all probability, it is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        anticipated, et cetera, vocabulary that is too


       2        expensive for the City of Jacksonville in these


       3        economic times.


       4             Now, the dismissal of an admittedly


       5        struggling shrimping industry would result in a


       6        failed initiative for the City of Jacksonville,


       7        and too much money has been spent by


       8        Jacksonville to allow that public failure in the


       9        citizens' eyes.


      10             This land use change in this small


      11        community and this particular project is the


      12        wrong project in the wrong location at this


      13        wrong economic time.


      14             Thank you.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      16             Gary Crumley, followed by Terry Downey.


      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Gary R. Crumley,


      19        landscape architect and vice chairman of the


      20        Mayport Waterfront's Partnership.  I've been a


      21        practicing LA for 20 years and I've worked on


      22        master planning and development of a variety of


      23        different types.


      24             Earlier today Mr. Graham asked me if I


      25        would take a few minutes to put some thoughts





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        together on things that might help us, and


       2        especially Ray Holt, on making the right


       3        decisions.


       4             Vision a better plan, one that might look


       5        like John's Pass, just one of many villages we


       6        could emulate.  I pray you will make a smart


       7        decision and save our village, not destroy it.


       8             What kind of legacy do you want to leave


       9        behind when you leave office?


      10             Please do not vote on the JaxPort side, I


      11        am begging you.  You have the ability to help,


      12        and now is the time to show what kind of persons


      13        you really are.


      14             Pertaining to the what-if scenario, I


      15        cannot find a compromise that is fair to the


      16        people.  Homeland Security will destroy access


      17        to the waterfront.  The solution is quite


      18        simple.  Get JaxPort to work with the City and


      19        do the following:


      20             Number one, return the property to the City


      21        and give it to the Parks Department for public


      22        access.  This is the best and highest use in


      23        accordance with the comp plan.


      24             If financial reimbursement is a


      25        requirement, let JaxPort apply for a grant from





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the Stan Mansfield (phonetic) program and the


       2        FCT.  $7 million plus $6 million equals


       3        $13 million, and I think that's a fair price for


       4        their trouble, and then would allow them a


       5        chance to look much better in the public eye.


       6        Grant coordinator Renee Rossi at JaxPort can be


       7        contacted to assist them.


       8             Number 3, a group effort between the


       9        Mayport Waterfront Partnership and the City


      10        Council to reestablish the Community


      11        Redevelopment Agency in the village has not only


      12        been proven feasible but is long overdue.


      13             Please make that a priority and allow the


      14        TIF funding to put the money back in Mayport for


      15        the community capital improvement projects that


      16        could really make this a great community with


      17        such projects as an amphitheater, a maritime and


      18        history museum, and so forth.


      19             Please encourage the JEDC and the Visit


      20        Jacksonville council to get behind the water


      21        taxi and scenic river cruise initiative.  A lot


      22        of ecotourism dollars are out there that will be


      23        a benefit not only to the hotel lobby interests


      24        as well as others.  These dollars are spent


      25        daily throughout the community, whereas the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        cruise ship cannot make that same commitment.


       2             Make your commitment to attend your Mayport


       3        Waterfront Partnership meetings.  It's only once


       4        a month and all your previous councilmen


       5        attended.  It's your obligation to fulfill that


       6        need.  It's a fair and equitable representation


       7        that we seek.  And, up to this point, we've been


       8        lacking it.


       9             Now, allowing the visioning process to be


      10        completed by the City before any further action


      11        is taken is tax dollars well spent for our


      12        community.


      13             Thank you.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      15             Hold on a second.  We have a question for


      16        you.


      17             Mr. Holt.


      18             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


      19             Mr. Crumley, I wanted to ask you a couple


      20        of questions about your opposition to this.  I


      21        wanted to try and get it concisely on which


      22        issues, exactly why.


      23             I've read what you wrote to our Chair, and


      24        it seems from there that your focus is that the


      25        moving forward with a cruise plan would





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        eliminate the possibility of previous plans.  Is


       2        that your main opposition, or is your opposition


       3        based more on the height of the ship that would


       4        be there?


       5             Can you concisely tell us what issues that


       6        you're opposed to?  Is it like I just said, the


       7        cruise ship would kind of eliminate previous


       8        plans for an amphitheater, history museums, and


       9        so forth?


      10             MR. CRUMLEY:  The visioning process which


      11        was created by the City of Jacksonville, yes,


      12        would be set aside by this.  That's a waste of


      13        taxpayers' dollars.  It's also flying in the


      14        face of the Mayport zoning overlay district


      15        ordinances which also provide for the


      16        requirement of certain things to be done in that


      17        area.


      18             But my bigger concern is that we're looking


      19        at trying to fit something that's so large in


      20        scale into such a small community that it


      21        doesn't take into effect the impact it's going


      22        to have on the residences of the people living


      23        there, and it doesn't look at the impact of the


      24        visual statement that it makes for all the


      25        people living on the Heckscher Drive side.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  So you're kind of


       2        twofold:


       3             Your concern is, one, that you think having


       4        a cruise ship terminal there would eliminate the


       5        possibilities that the Mayport visioning had


       6        seen years ago, the amphitheater, maritime


       7        history museum.  That kind of thing.  That's


       8        one.  And two is the massive ship being right


       9        there on top of the Mayport Village.  Am I


      10        accurate?


      11             MR. CRUMLEY:  That would be an accurate


      12        statement, but we also have to keep in mind that


      13        there's an altruistic thing involved here.  I


      14        don't live in the village, but I serve the


      15        village because I'm a neighbor and I'm a good


      16        neighbor.  I believe in standing up for the


      17        rights of the people.  And there's only 200


      18        voters.  They don't mean much in a million-plus


      19        city.


      20             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  I just wanted --


      21             MR. CRUMLEY:  But they're 200 people that


      22        need your support.


      23             MR. HOLT:  I just wanted to stay confined


      24        to the issues and understand fully what your


      25        reason for opposing it is, and I think I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        understand that.


       2             MR. CRUMLEY:  We have a visioning process


       3        that's in play right now with Chris Flagg and


       4        other members of the City of Jacksonville that


       5        the City is paying for.  We need to give enough


       6        time for that visioning session to be panned out


       7        and the works that have been drawn and created


       8        to be submitted to the City, and that has to be


       9        done within the next 30 days.


      10             MR. HOLT:  Thank you.  I understand.


      11        Thank you.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Crumley.


      13             MR. CRUMLEY:  Thank you, Mr. Holt.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Terry Downey, followed by


      15        Michelle Baldwin.


      16             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Hello.  My name is


      18        Terry Downey.  I live at 14309 Lackman Lane,


      19        Jacksonville, Florida.


      20             I don't live in Mayport.  My mother-in-law


      21        does.  She's fifth generation Mayport.  My


      22        husband grew up there.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ma'am, can I get you to pull


      24        that mic down a little?


      25             MS. DOWNEY:  Okay.  Is that better?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  You can tilt the entire


       2        thing down.


       3             MS. DOWNEY:  I don't --


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  There you go.


       5             MS. DOWNEY:  Okay.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  You can pick it up and move


       7        it away from you.


       8             MS. DOWNEY:  Anyway, I object to the cruise


       9        terminal in Mayport because it's not compatible


      10        with the environment and the village.  I have


      11        been going in and out of Mayport for 25 years


      12        now, and it's changed a lot.  You know, the


      13        shrimping industry has gone down, but they were


      14        working to bring it back up, and you have to


      15        give them the opportunity to do that.


      16             They have worked very hard on their


      17        visioning sessions.  They have a dream that you


      18        have to allow them to fulfill.  Putting the


      19        cruise terminal there is not going to allow that


      20        to happen.  You're talking about putting a


      21        15-story boat, ship, whatever you want to call


      22        it, all along their waterfront.  It's going to


      23        take up 210 feet for one boat, 210 feet for


      24        another boat.  Right now they only want two.


      25        What's going to happen when they want four?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             There's not going to be any public access


       2        to the river.  They've fenced it in, they've


       3        taken out all the buildings.  The people that


       4        have done that weren't the people that live


       5        there, were the companies that bought the


       6        property.  They're looking to make it blighted


       7        so they can get the other property and pave it


       8        over.


       9             There's an old lady that lives in Mayport


      10        right now, there will be a garage next to her


      11        house or right on top of it.  Where's she going


      12        to live?  She's 86 years old.  My mother-in-law


      13        is 72.  She's been living on the property she's


      14        on all of her life.


      15             You're going to have traffic coming in and


      16        out of there that's going to exceed the road


      17        capability.  Now, maybe the new plans that you


      18        have would allow for the expansion of the road,


      19        and that's fine, but you've got other people


      20        that live there that aren't going to be able to


      21        get to their homes.  Their homes.  These are the


      22        people that have lived there, their community.


      23        They welcomed me and all of my family.  You


      24        can't destroy that for money.


      25             I understand that these are tough economic





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        times and people need jobs, but you do not have


       2        to destroy an entire community to do so.  There


       3        are other alternatives available, and they


       4        should be researched.  You should have an


       5        environmental impact study done to make sure


       6        that this is not the only alternative because


       7        there are other alternatives that you can do.


       8        You can't keep stepping on the citizens of this


       9        city and this county simply to make money.  It's


      10        wrong.  It's immoral.


      11             These are the people that support you, that


      12        put you in office and look to you to help to


      13        protect their rights.  If you step on them, what


      14        are you doing?  You're telling people that money


      15        is more important than your citizenship and your


      16        rights and that companies can come in and do


      17        whatever they want to you, and that should not


      18        be the case here.


      19             Thank you very much.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      21             Michelle Baldwin, followed by Al Millar.


      22             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      24             Michelle Baldwin, 46270 Ocean Street in


      25        Mayport Village.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I've heard a lot of points that have been


       2        brought up, and one thing -- one question that


       3        I've heard that I think I can help to answer is,


       4        why does Mayport look the way it does right


       5        now?  We've had these revitalization plans that


       6        have been put in place.  $85,000 was spent on


       7        studies.  There was a master plan for the


       8        revitalization of Mayport that was developed and


       9        adopted in an ordinance in 2001.  Why wasn't


      10        that done?


      11             The things and the money that was spent in


      12        Mayport, the $9.7 million on revitalization was


      13        spent under the ground in underground utilities


      14        and sewers.  That does not attract businesses.


      15        It makes it convenient for more businesses to


      16        come in, but it doesn't attract them.


      17             There were 15 items in the master plan and


      18        two of them were completed.  The entire price


      19        tag for that entire master plan was only


      20        two-and-a-half million dollars.


      21             Now, where the ball got dropped, I don't


      22        know.  I don't have that answer, but what I can


      23        tell you is that the few items that were in that


      24        master plan that I really, really sincerely hope


      25        you will all take a look at are simple things,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        like a park that will overlook where the


       2        lighthouse is to celebrate part of our history,


       3        redevelopment of Helen Cooper Floyd Park to make


       4        it more attractive and more accessible to all of


       5        the people of Jacksonville to come to Mayport


       6        Village.  All kinds of small things like that.


       7        Pavilions, park benches, things that wouldn't


       8        have taken a whole lot of effort.  And they


       9        should have been done before the sewer system


      10        came in.  If they were, it would have attracted


      11        more businesses and we wouldn't be in the


      12        position we're in right now where we've had


      13        conglomerates coming in, gobbling up the


      14        property, knocking down the buildings.


      15             Thank you.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      17             Al, followed by Pam Spencer.


      18             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Learned Councilmen, my


      20        name is Al Millar.  My address is 4627 Ocean


      21        Street, Mayport Village, Florida.


      22             Geographically, I am 60 feet across the


      23        street from this proposed cruise terminal.


      24        Actually, Mr. Singleton is closer than I am.


      25             Now, I'm not going to -- I've got a number





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of reasons why I think that it shouldn't be


       2        there, but I'm not going to get into legalistic


       3        things.  I'm going to simply talk about what's


       4        right and what's right.


       5             I heard a lot about economics today.


       6        Everyone said how many fill up the hotels and


       7        how many dollars is going to get here and this


       8        is what we need.  I haven't heard a thing about


       9        human life.  You are City Council.  You make


      10        laws.  You have the police power.  You have a


      11        right to protect the citizens.  You talk about


      12        the murder rate, what you're doing is you're


      13        putting a proven killer in Mayport with no


      14        restrictions.  You could put restrictions on it,


      15        but there are no restrictions.


      16             What you are doing -- when you think of the


      17        Iraq war, you think of how many dollars the war


      18        cost, or do you think of how many citizens it


      19        killed?


      20             It's indisputable, and testimony from


      21        California, 20 decades -- 20 years of it rather,


      22        that bunker C kills.  It kills children, it


      23        kills adults, it kills people closest to the


      24        source.


      25             Right now in Jacksonville, we have an





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        asthma epidemic.  It also kills people who have


       2        prior lung problems, such as I have COPD, and


       3        yet no effort is made to do anything about it.


       4             Carnival Cruise Line burns bunker C.  Of


       5        the five fuels, diesel fuels, bunker C is the


       6        worst, and it creates 33- -- 28- to 33,000 parts


       7        per million particulate, which is another


       8        inconsistency.


       9             Particulate, when it's combusted, it goes


      10        up in the air and it hooks onto nitrogen


      11        particles and sulfur sulfide.  But everything


      12        that goes up comes down.  And it doesn't always


      13        come down on the land, it comes down in your


      14        river.  You're saying we're trying to save the


      15        river, yet you're dumping tons of nitrogen in


      16        the river through a smoke stack.


      17             And California adopted on July 24th of this


      18        year very comprehensive studies.  They said we


      19        are satisfied that bunker C fumes, unrestricted


      20        with catalytic converters, of which Carnival has


      21        none, and other safety devices such as shore


      22        power and other things like that, we are


      23        convinced it kills people.  We estimate it


      24        kills -- and this is in the legislative record,


      25        it kills ten persons a day.  It creates





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        something like six million lost job days,


       2        six million lost school days, and all -- so


       3        we're going to prohibit the use of it anywhere


       4        within 24 miles of the coast of California.


       5             You're going to allow such a thing to come


       6        in -- and I don't know of anywhere in the United


       7        States where it comes in a neighborhood 60 feet


       8        away from them.  Can you imagine?  Two hundred


       9        and eight feet tall, 60 feet.  Well, I can't.


      10             Thank you very much.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      12             Hold on a second, sir.  We have a couple of


      13        questions for you.


      14             MR. MILLAR:  Sure.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman.


      16             MR. REDMAN:  Mr. Millar, I know at the


      17        council meeting the other night you said that


      18        you were happy to have the Navy ships there at


      19        Mayport.


      20             MR. MILLAR:  The Navy ships?


      21             MR. REDMAN:  They burn the same bunker fuel


      22        that these cruise ships do.


      23             MR. MILLAR:  I understand that the Navy


      24        ships are not allowed to use bunker C within


      25        three miles of the coast of Florida.  That's one





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        thing I understand.


       2             I also understand -- and it's highly


       3        restrictive, but I understand that Navy ships


       4        use shore power while in port.  Most of your


       5        cargo vessels are equipped -- they use -- they


       6        don't use shore power, but they have an


       7        independent auxiliary system that uses low


       8        sulfur fuel when they're in port.  They don't


       9        use bunker C.  Cruise ships have to burn a lot


      10        more electricity.  It's like lighting a hotel or


      11        City Hall or the World's Fair or something.


      12        You've got 3,000 rooms in that thing.


      13             They have to burn so much electricity --


      14        they've got either six to nine engines aboard


      15        that ship.  And when they come in port, they


      16        turn them all off except one or two, and they


      17        keep the generating system working.


      18             MR. REDMAN:  Mr. Millar, I spent three


      19        years on a destroyer at Mayport, and they burn


      20        fuel right in and out of the port.


      21             MR. MILLAR:  Yes, sir.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, I actually have a


      23        question for you.


      24             We are told -- and I guess I'll confirm


      25        this when the Port comes up -- that when these





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        ships come into port, they will not be burning


       2        bunker C, that they'll actually be using diesel


       3        when they come into port, so I think that


       4        handles that first problem.


       5             And you said there's several other


       6        restrictions we should put on there.  What other


       7        restrictions are you looking for?


       8             MR. MILLAR:  Catalytic converters in the


       9        smoke stacks, reduction units so they capture


      10        the particles -- the particulates, so it doesn't


      11        go in the river.  I think that's one thing you


      12        can do.


      13             I think you could require advanced waste


      14        water systems, which are used in some vessels --


      15        the Princess cruise line, which they don't use


      16        in any of the ships that sail in Florida.


      17             And basically I think you'll -- make some


      18        monitoring system.  So instead of them checking


      19        themselves -- every time someone has checked


      20        themselves, it's a problem.  You ought to have


      21        some monitoring system.  That's essential.


      22             But I dispute the fact that -- in fact, I


      23        talked to Mr. Brendan Corrigan, who is in charge


      24        of cruise operations for Carnival, and he


      25        advises when they come into port, they turn the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        engines off all except one or two.  They don't


       2        use independent systems.  So I don't know where


       3        your information is coming from, sir.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


       5             MR. MILLAR:  Thank you.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Pam Spencer, followed by


       7        Dan King.


       8             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       9             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.  I'm Pam Spencer,


      10        2084 Sallas Lane, Jacksonville, 32233.


      11             I live off of Mayport Road, so I am close


      12        to the village, and I do have a concern about


      13        keeping this a working fishing village.


      14             I think Jacksonville can become a tourist


      15        destination, instead of a cruise ship, which


      16        I've gone on cruises before.  Anytime I've gone,


      17        like Mr. Joost said, I've gone there and parked


      18        my car, got on the cruise ship as soon as


      19        possible because I know there's going to be a


      20        lot of food so I didn't want to have a meal


      21        beforehand.  Afterwards, I got off and was ready


      22        to go home and diet, not spend more money


      23        visiting another site and so forth.


      24             I don't think they're spending too many


      25        night -- extra nights here in Jacksonville as





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        far as the hotel industry goes, but let's look


       2        at Jacksonville as a tourist destination, and


       3        Mayport Village being the hook that we needed to


       4        bring people in here.


       5             We have the history.  1562, older than


       6        St. Augustine, older than Jamestown.  We can --


       7        we can really utilize that, start marketing it,


       8        get ourselves written up in different papers


       9        across the country, get ourselves in travel


      10        sections.  And what could we do with that?  We


      11        could have a waterfront where people could walk,


      12        sit on benches.


      13             I drove past the other day coming off the


      14        ferry.  There was a pelican on each post along


      15        the river, sea gulls, pelicans flying, container


      16        ships going by.  It's an interesting place if


      17        you have a place to sit there.  It's beautiful.


      18        It's wonderful.


      19             But then add the museums, add the


      20        amphitheater, make it a place where people could


      21        really learn about the history of Jacksonville,


      22        which none of us know.  Have it a place where


      23        you can bike, have it a place where you can eat


      24        Mayport shrimp, have it a place where you have


      25        shops, have it something that's enjoyable.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Have the water taxi that can take you all


       2        over the other places in Jacksonville, the zoo,


       3        Fort Caroline, kayaking on Dutton Island,


       4        walking trails.  Have the trolley from the


       5        beaches go out to Mayport.


       6             Have it where people from Jacksonville can


       7        go to the beach for a weekend and not use their


       8        car.  They can take the trolley to Mayport, they


       9        can take the water taxi to the zoo, they can


      10        take their children to Fort George, to Kingsley


      11        Plantation.  They can learn more about the


      12        history here.  It's a place where people can go


      13        for little money but yet spend a lot more money


      14        in our city.


      15             These hotel owners, would they rather have


      16        people spend a week here or just one night


      17        before they go on their cruise?


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ma'am, your time is up, but


      19        I have a question for you.


      20             MS. SPENCER:  Yes.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Being the guy that chased


      22        down money for the trolley in the past, it's a


      23        very expensive product.  How do you think -- how


      24        do you propose running the trolley from the


      25        beaches out to Mayport and who's going to pay





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        for it?


       2             MS. SPENCER:  Well, I think, first of all,


       3        you have to pursue the visioning plan, and you


       4        have to have a draw for that.  But I would think


       5        if we had that attraction, eventually that


       6        would, you know, fall in place.  And I would


       7        think the hotels that were benefiting from the


       8        people staying and using that system to go out


       9        there --


      10             I don't know exactly how that money comes.


      11        I have a feeling there's grant money that could


      12        be utilized in some ways.  I think the history


      13        can bring money into that area.  And I think we


      14        need to utilize it, I think we need to keep it.


      15             And you think of New England, when you go


      16        to one of those fishing towns, would it be the


      17        same if there was a 15-story cruise boat right


      18        next to that village that you're going to see?


      19        It's not compatible.  It's not what will draw


      20        people here.


      21             And we haven't utilized international


      22        tours.  How many of these hotel owners are


      23        getting international business?  And


      24        Jacksonville could be that draw.  It really


      25        could.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


       2             MS. SPENCER:  Thank you.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Dan King, followed by


       4        Ted Corley.


       5             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       6             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


       7             I'm Dan King, 225 Coastline Drive.


       8             I'm also a general manager of the Hyatt


       9        Regency, Jacksonville Riverfront, and I'm here


      10        to speak on behalf of my support of the cruise


      11        ship terminal for Mayport.


      12             You heard earlier the tremendous economic


      13        impact that the cruise industry has had on


      14        Jacksonville the four months alone this last


      15        summer without the cruise lines.  We saw


      16        occupancy drop 6 to 7 percent on the Northside.


      17        The cruise ship industry brings in guests.


      18        Forty percent of the guests stay pre or post,


      19        either before or after, spending money in


      20        hotels, restaurants, transportation, retail.


      21        That keeps people working.  That adds jobs to


      22        our community.


      23             The impact of the Fascination that's out at


      24        JaxPort, this year alone, in one year is going


      25        to have 78 departures in a year, which





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        represents $25 million of economic impact.


       2             Florida is the cruise ship capital of the


       3        year.  Florida has had success in putting cruise


       4        ships in all different areas of the state.


       5        Surely, given the economic impact, there can be


       6        a collaborative effort to keep the beauty of


       7        Mayport as well as continue to provide jobs and


       8        growth for this beautiful area of the country in


       9        Florida.


      10             Thank you.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      12             Ted Corley, followed by Paul Davis.


      13             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      14             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      15             Ted Corley, 1547 Harbor Oaks Road,


      16        Jacksonville, Florida.


      17             I sent you an e-mail earlier today and I


      18        certainly -- I think all of you know that I have


      19        a great passion for Jacksonville.  I believe


      20        Jacksonville should be and will be, can be a


      21        world-class city and a major vacation


      22        destination.


      23             One of the things that we keep hearing is


      24        about all of this impact.  According to the


      25        airport, the JIA, there have been 39,800 fewer





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        passengers fly into Jacksonville Airport this


       2        year than the same time last year.  Surely all


       3        39,800 of those were not coming to get on the


       4        boat, and so they didn't come because there was


       5        no boat here.  Tourism in Florida is down


       6        significantly.


       7             Across the state, hotel occupancy for the


       8        first three quarters was down four-and-a-half


       9        percent or 4.3 percent.  Our occupancy rate in


      10        Jacksonville is higher than the state, according


      11        to Visit Florida.  In Jacksonville, there is


      12        about a 65 percent occupancy rate.  Statewide is


      13        only 62.6 percent.  So we do better than the


      14        average.


      15             I believe that there can be a way to have a


      16        cruise ship terminal and to have Mayport.  I


      17        don't believe that Mayport is the best place.  I


      18        believe that an investment in that community


      19        will bring money to this community and to our


      20        city and the cruise ships, but not in the face


      21        of this small community.  It will overwhelm, it


      22        will destroy this community.  We all recognize


      23        that.


      24             I looked online at Port Canaveral.  Well,


      25        yeah, they're -- they have a great place, but





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        they're not sitting right in front of a village


       2        of 200-plus people.  They have great access and


       3        great maneuverability there, but they do have


       4        great tourist attractions, seafood centers,


       5        shops all along there.  And I believe we can


       6        find a way to be compatible, but I do not


       7        believe that Mayport is the place.


       8             And I urge you, encourage you, don't allow


       9        the JaxPort to take over this community because


      10        it will overrun the community.  They have no


      11        defense but you and this city.  And I'm asking


      12        you to defend them to the best of your ability,


      13        to protect their property rights, just as you


      14        would anyone else's in this city.  You've always


      15        done a good job of that.  I want to encourage


      16        you to do a good job of that.


      17             I also got this off the Web today.  I


      18        thought it was interesting since we've been


      19        talking about -- "The Dirty Truth, Coming Clean


      20        on Cruise Ships."  This is online at Friends of


      21        the Earth.  I would encourage you to visit and


      22        see how dirty cruise ships are.  They are dirty


      23        and do need to be cleaned up.


      24             Thank you.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Pastor.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Paul Davis, followed by Dorothea Cloer.


       2             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Paul Davis.  I


       4        live at 2738 Elisa Drive East, here in


       5        Jacksonville, a longtime resident.


       6             Mr. Chairman, honorable councilmembers,


       7        thank you for the privilege of speaking to your


       8        group this evening.  I come as a concerned


       9        citizen, as a person who has chosen to raise my


      10        family in Jacksonville.


      11             My parents lived here.  I joined the


      12        military here, was a pilot in Vietnam.  I have


      13        chosen to come back here.  I'm a small business


      14        owner in Jacksonville, very concerned about the


      15        future of our community, the economic future,


      16        the place for families to come to and to live


      17        and to grow the quality of life.  I'm very


      18        concerned about those things, as I'm sure


      19        everybody else that has spoken this evening is.


      20             I've come just to share my perspective from


      21        a citizen standpoint.  I do not live at


      22        Mayport.  I live on the south side of


      23        Jacksonville.


      24             I have watched opportunities come and go in


      25        Jacksonville.  I remember as a young boy my





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        family coming and us going down to Mayport to go


       2        down to eat.  Some of the best seafood around


       3        was at Mayport.  And there were a lot of


       4        choices, a lot of places to go.  We'd have


       5        relatives come to town and we were always --


       6        that was one of the things we would do.  I also


       7        remember taking them to Marineland, which is no


       8        longer there.  Some of you can remember that.


       9             There are clearly issues that need to be


      10        addressed.  And in your wisdom and with the


      11        counsel that you have as far as zoning, building


      12        permits, the environmental protection issues,


      13        those kinds of things, I'm confident, can be


      14        dealt with in a fair and equitable manner.


      15             You know the old saying, everybody is for


      16        progress, it's the change we resist.  Well,


      17        change is coming, folks.  Do nothing and Mayport


      18        will continue to change.  It's unfortunate.  I


      19        love Mayport.  I ride down there periodically


      20        just to get away and to relax.  It's a beautiful


      21        place.


      22             But you know what?  Mayport is not a


      23        destination.  And some of the things that we've


      24        heard tonight are great plans.  They sound


      25        wonderful.  But I am of the opinion that it is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        private industry's position to grow and develop


       2        things in our community.  It's not always the


       3        government's job.  I think the government needs


       4        to be there to support and do the basic


       5        structure, but at the same time, it needs to


       6        provide an environment for private industry to


       7        do well, and I think --


       8             We shot ourselves in the foot years ago


       9        when we allowed the Saratoga to be hauled away


      10        to the scrap yard versus having something down


      11        on the river.  I'd heard for 20 or 30 years now,


      12        different administrations have talked about


      13        making Jacksonville a tourist destination.


      14             I remember as a young boy all of the


      15        conventions in Jacksonville.  And people used to


      16        come here, Jacksonville was a destination.  Now


      17        we just enjoy the exhaust of tens of thousands


      18        of cars that drive past Jacksonville going


      19        someplace else.


      20             And I think with wise heads and informed


      21        information that people can put together a plan


      22        that would allow Mayport to become a place to go


      23        to, not just a cruise ship departure point.  It


      24        clearly will impact our community in a positive


      25        way economically.  It provides jobs.  I think





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that is part of the responsibility the council


       2        has.  And I appreciate your attention to this.


       3        I am very pro Jacksonville and I am very pro


       4        Mayport.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, your time is up.


       6             MR. DAVIS:  And I think the two can work


       7        and thrive together.


       8             Thank you.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      10             Ms. Cloer --


      11             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- followed by Mr. Patidar.


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Dorothea Cloer, 4226


      14        Roxie Street in Mayport Village.


      15             I'm going to apologize right from the


      16        beginning.  I'm not a public speaker, but I


      17        would like to speak on this.


      18             What I have to say is in two parts.  First,


      19        anybody that would drive over the bridge, Dames


      20        Point Bridge, and look at what the old terminal


      21        looks like and then turn around and drive into


      22        Mayport can clearly see it does not belong.


      23             I work for a limousine service.  It's less


      24        than two miles from the old terminal.  I'm also


      25        a dispatcher, and I take all their orders.  I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        have never had more than one trip -- either bus,


       2        limousine or sedan -- to the cruise terminal or


       3        from the airport in a year's period.


       4             I also work at the airport as a liaison


       5        between the drivers of the buses, limousines,


       6        and sedans.  We never carry anyone from the


       7        airport to the cruise terminal, never.  I have a


       8        roommate that has driven for Dana's Limousine


       9        for seven years and I asked him last night, and


      10        he has never taken anyone to the cruise


      11        terminal.


      12             Like Mr. Joost said, I've taken five


      13        cruises.  I have never done anything but cruise,


      14        straight into town, straight after, straight


      15        back to home.


      16             I work at the airport, and I connect the


      17        drivers to their passengers.  I work out there


      18        and I see the little lady that works for the


      19        cruise, for Carnival out there, directing their


      20        people straight from their flights to their


      21        transportation.  www.Carnival tells you right


      22        here, the only offshore excursions Carnival


      23        advertises for those in Jacksonville is a bus


      24        trip to and from the airport, not to a hotel.


      25             Also, Consumer Affairs gets more complaints





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        about Carnival than any other cruise line


       2        combined.  Look it up on


       3        www.ConsumerAffairs.com.


       4             Thank you for letting me speak.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


       6             Kirit Patidar, followed by Dave Kaufman.


       7             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       8             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Kirit Patidar, 13846


       9        Saxon Lake Drive, Jacksonville, Florida.


      10             I was here last week on the other meeting


      11        and again today.  I think we should think of it


      12        as a bigger picture than just Mayport itself.  I


      13        think we haven't really provided a gateway into


      14        our city for tourism to develop.  This is not a


      15        tourism city to start.  It doesn't -- it doesn't


      16        matter what CVB says.  People just don't come


      17        here to go to the beach.  We haven't really done


      18        a good job with it.  And this is our one


      19        opportunity to get the people inside the town


      20        and get them to stay the extra few nights, go on


      21        those shipping -- fishing and deep sea fishing


      22        tours.


      23             Although I'm a hotel owner, a small hotel


      24        owner on Mayport Road, I think jobs will be


      25        brought by this.  It's really hurting our





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        industry.  And to take this seed away that's


       2        right at your threshold would make a big


       3        difference either -- what direction this City is


       4        going in.  Is it going to be progress, or are we


       5        going to do the same old thing again and again


       6        and lose out again to other cities like we have


       7        done in the past?


       8             We had a Wal-Mart wanting to come on


       9        Mayport Road a few years back, four or five


      10        years back, turned it down.  There's no


      11        opportunity left on Mayport corridor for -- I've


      12        got people wanting front desk jobs with a


      13        bachelor's degree at 7.50 an hour.  They don't


      14        have a car.  They have -- it's just a bad


      15        problem.


      16             At least this will be the seed to bring


      17        some new jobs, a new generation, new people to


      18        that area.  So I would seriously take that into


      19        consideration.


      20             So thank you for your time.  Appreciate it.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      22             Dave Kaufman.


      23             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      25             Dave Kaufman, 2831 Talleyrand Avenue,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Jacksonville Port Authority.


       2             I'm the senior director of planning,


       3        properties and environmental compliance for the


       4        Port.  I've been working on this project for


       5        several years.


       6             I would like to just remind the council


       7        that the Port Authority and the City of


       8        Jacksonville has now been in the cruise business


       9        for approximately five years.  It's been a very


      10        successful business for us and the community.


      11        And we have created a very interesting niche in


      12        the industry for the cruise lines, and that is


      13        really catering predominantly to a drive


      14        market.  And particularly in these economic


      15        times that we're in, people are looking for ways


      16        to economize.  They're not willing to give up


      17        their annual vacation, but they are trying to


      18        economize that vacation.  And being able to


      19        drive to a terminal, eliminate the air piece of


      20        that travel and take a cruise, which has proven


      21        to be a very effective and efficient vacation


      22        opportunity, really is something unique that


      23        Jacksonville can offer.


      24             I want to assure the council that the Port


      25        Authority has done significant diligence on this





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        issue.  We have looked over the years,


       2        recognizing very early on that if we're going to


       3        remain viable in the industry, we had to get to


       4        the other side of the Dames Point Bridge and the


       5        power lines across Blount Island.


       6             We have searched diligently up and down the


       7        river from the mouth of Blount Island to look at


       8        alternative sites.  You've heard people discuss


       9        a couple of those sites, Pine Island and


      10        others.  And I will tell you that at the end of


      11        the day, given where Jacksonville's potential


      12        market is, that we believe that the Mayport


      13        terminal really represents not only perhaps our


      14        only opportunity but, in fact, the best


      15        opportunity, not just for the Port Authority but


      16        for this community to really take advantage of


      17        the cruise business.


      18             At the Port, we look at the cruise industry


      19        at various levels.  We look at it as a good


      20        revenue producer for the Port directly, which


      21        are funds that then get plowed back into other


      22        capital projects that we do, whether it be cargo


      23        or other activities that support the Port, and


      24        the creation of the thousands of jobs that we


      25        do.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             We also look at the cruise as an


       2        opportunity for this community, both in terms of


       3        getting the recognition out nationally about


       4        Jacksonville as a tourism destination -- and we


       5        recognize that the best opportunity for this


       6        community to capitalize on the spending


       7        potential of these cruise passengers is to


       8        locate the terminal in an area where we can best


       9        capture that spending.  And locating it in a


      10        village where we can take advantage of all the


      11        great ideas that the community has presented for


      12        maritime museums and cultural museums and


      13        activities and ecotourists, those are things


      14        that we are firmly four square behind, firmly


      15        support, think that those are the things that


      16        this community ought to be offering to the


      17        cruise lines who are looking for us to help them


      18        sell Jacksonville, and I think there's


      19        opportunities for us together to work to produce


      20        those opportunities.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Kaufman, we have a


      22        question for you.  Hold tight.


      23             Mr. Holt.


      24             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


      25             Mr. Kaufman, we've heard a lot of folks





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        here tonight talk about environmental issues and


       2        pollution issues as a result of cruise ships.


       3        Could you run through the issues one by one,


       4        starting with air pollution?


       5             We've heard people come up here tonight and


       6        say that the fuel that they use has been proven


       7        to kill children and cause health problems.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Holt, if I can get you


       9        to wait until after I close the public hearing


      10        and we can bring him back up here and answer


      11        your list of questions.


      12             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  All right.  That would be


      13        better.


      14             Thank you.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      16             MR. KAUFMAN:  Thank you.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't have any more cards


      18        for this subject.  Is anybody else here that


      19        would like to speak to 2008-892 or -893?


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Indicating.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Cone on down, sir.


      22             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Please fill out a card.


      24             Sir, your name and address for the record.


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Mike Getchell,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        1185 Eagle Bend Court, Jacksonville, Florida.


       2             I represent the Jacksonville Marine


       3        Transportation Exchange, and I want to speak to


       4        two points here.


       5             One, there's been a lot of talk up here


       6        about air pollution.  I will not dispute


       7        Mr. Millar's comments about Carnival Cruise


       8        Lines.  Perhaps burning bunker C -- it's 380


       9        fuel.  However, I will say that most prudent


      10        ship operators, being the wise businessmen that


      11        they are, will go ahead and have contingencies,


      12        and those contingencies are the ability to burn


      13        two types of fuel, whichever may be cheaper.


      14        And most ship operating companies operating at


      15        this time have that capability.


      16             The second thing I want to address is the


      17        suitability of Mayport and as -- and opposed to


      18        the other areas in town around the river as far


      19        as a suitable site is concerned.


      20             Pine Island has been the only other site


      21        that's been discussed.  As far as the Harbor


      22        Safety Committee is concerned here in town,


      23        there's a lot of dredging that would have to


      24        take place for that site to be suitable.  And


      25        plus, it sits at an intersection of probably the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        most dangerous intersection we have on the


       2        river.  You have the confluence of the Sisters


       3        Creek, Intracoastal Waterway, and the St. Johns


       4        River.  There are large signs on the


       5        Intracoastal Waterway warning boaters of keeping


       6        their eyes out for large ships because large


       7        ships can't see little boaters.  That, plus


       8        coupled with the tides and the currents in that


       9        particular area are extremely dangerous.


      10             The Army Corps of Engineers right now is


      11        trying to come up with some remedy for that


      12        situation.  At present, they have not come up


      13        with anything as of yet.


      14             So, with that, I would caution anybody who


      15        goes ahead and considers the Pine Island site,


      16        that they'll have to take those things into


      17        consideration.


      18             Thank you.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      20             Sandra Tuttle.


      21             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      22             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm Sandra Tuttle, 1423


      23        Roxie Street, Mayport Fishing Village.


      24             I thank you all, the City Council men and


      25        women, and respect you very much, and I hope





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that you'll listen carefully to what I have to


       2        say.


       3             I've heard a lot of people here tonight


       4        speak.  I respect them too and their right to


       5        their opinions, but most of them are not


       6        correct.  Especially I would like to address the


       7        fact to begin with that I do not believe that


       8        this is a small scale land use amendment.  I


       9        believe it's much more.


      10             Beyond that, I will say that we have worked


      11        diligently.  And as you know with anything you


      12        do in the City, it takes a lot of time to get


      13        the infrastructure, the design guidelines and


      14        all the things in place to revitalize a town


      15        like Mayport.


      16             The Mayport people, the village, the


      17        Mayport Village Civic Association, the oldest


      18        one in Jacksonville, the Mayport Waterfront


      19        Partnership, the Mayport Historical Preservation


      20        Society, we all want change.  We know we can


      21        have change, we know that we have a history that


      22        can bring to Jacksonville the greatest tourism


      23        many -- in any place.


      24             Take a look at John's Pass and Madeira


      25        Beach, Pinellas County, a hundred little shops





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        in that little, tiny village brings in more


       2        money than anything in Pinellas County.


       3             I want to address the fact that we were


       4        filling out the grants.  We qualify for the


       5        Main Street grant program and many other grants


       6        to do all the revitalization.  The plans are


       7        absolutely exquisite and beautiful, could be the


       8        crown jewel of Jacksonville.  There's no doubt


       9        about this.


      10             But for other people that have addressed


      11        issues tonight, it's obviously, just obvious,


      12        they have not been to the village.  They don't


      13        know the beauty and the things and the nice


      14        homes and the people.  The only blight there is


      15        what has happened after Vestcor, the cruise and


      16        JaxPort bought the land and destroyed, tore down


      17        and devastated it.


      18             We don't have blight.  We clean our own


      19        streets, we take care of our own cemeteries, we


      20        have well-kept homes.


      21             The other thing I want to address is the


      22        Navy ships don't sit in the Timucuan Preserve.


      23        And, yes, cruise ships do pollute.  The facts


      24        are there no matter what anyone says.


      25             The manatees that are being killed are





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        enormous.  Four a month ago, 276 last year.  A


       2        bill will be addressed on Wednesday to this by


       3        the State.


       4             And another thing I'd like to say in due


       5        respect to Ms. Thomas, who spoke, that said she


       6        spoke for the fisherman.  She might represent


       7        maybe four to six fishermen.  She does not


       8        represent us.  I am a fisherman.  My husband and


       9        I have a shrimp boat for 55 years.  We've been


      10        in the business, and I ask you to please do not


      11        vote for this cruise ship industry in little


      12        Mayport.


      13             I think it's great to have a cruise ship --


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ma'am.


      15             MS. TUTTLE:  -- somewhere else.


      16             But thank you, respectfully.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      18             MS. TUTTLE:  And I pray for you all.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      20             MS. TUTTLE:  God bless.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is there anybody else that's


      22        here to speak on -892 or -893?


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, the public


      25        hearing is closed.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I have a question for Ms. Goodman.


       2             (Ms. Goodman approaches the podium.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have to apologize.  When


       4        you were speaking, somebody was in my ear about


       5        a different issue and I missed a lot of it, and


       6        it was very short, so if you can give it to me


       7        again.


       8             MS. GOODMAN:  Okay.  Certainly.


       9             Basically, what I had said is that we


      10        are -- we don't object to having a cruise


      11        terminal in Mayport, and we look forward to


      12        working with the Port to address the challenges


      13        that would come with a cruise terminal.  We


      14        recognize there are those.


      15             But we believe that the economic stimulus


      16        that will -- it will bring and the potential for


      17        greater tourism are positives and we're in


      18        support of that.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  I heard a couple of people


      20        speak of Pine Island.  Would you guys support it


      21        going to Pine Island?


      22             MS. GOODMAN:  We are on record opposing


      23        Pine Island and actually worked very hard to


      24        oppose it several years back when it was


      25        suggested.  It is -- both these areas are inside





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the Timucuan Preserve, but the Pine Island is a


       2        land base inside the Preserve.  And at Mayport,


       3        it's just the St. Johns River, and its


       4        association next to the Navy base makes it a


       5        better location.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


       7             Mr. Joost, was your question for


       8        Ms. Goodman?


       9             MR. JOOST:  No.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Goodman.


      11             MS. GOODMAN:  Okay.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Stephen Joost first.


      13             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.


      14             I saw Mr. Ferrin sitting in the audience,


      15        and I'd like to bring you up to the hot seat so


      16        I could ask you some questions.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  That will teach you for


      18        showing up.


      19             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      20             MR. JOOST:  And thank you for showing up


      21        because this is a big and difficult decision for


      22        myself and I know for many of my colleagues.


      23             Your name and address for the record.


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Right.  My name is


      25        Rick Ferrin.  I'm the executive director of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Jacksonville Port Authority, which is located at


       2        2831 Talleyrand Avenue in Jacksonville, Florida.


       3             MR. JOOST:  Mr. Ferrin, could you address,


       4        number one, the -- whether the ships are going


       5        to be burning diesel or using onshore power


       6        hookups when they're docked, when they're docked


       7        at Mayport.


       8             MR. FERRIN:  Through the Chair to


       9        Councilman Joost, the vessels will be burning


      10        fuel.  They will not be hooked up to shore


      11        power.  The capability of being hooked up to


      12        shore power will be -- we have planned to


      13        integrate that into the design of the terminal


      14        itself, but the vessels will be burning --


      15        that's one -- it's one engine driving a


      16        generator, and it does burn bunker C.


      17             The vessel does, at a significant cost,


      18        have the capability of changing to diesel fuel,


      19        which is much lower in sulfur emissions.


      20             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  When you refer to


      21        bunker C -- because I noticed through my


      22        research there was a move in the Port of Seattle


      23        where the cruise ships were now burning a


      24        1.5 percent sulfur versus the 2.7.


      25             Are there any -- are there any plans, at





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        least in our current plan, to mitigate the kind


       2        of fuel that they're burning such as the Port of


       3        Seattle has done?


       4             MR. FERRIN:  Councilmember Joost, we have


       5        not mandated that.  We actually now just simply


       6        mandate that all of our tenants and customers


       7        and the steamship lines that call in


       8        Jacksonville abide by the emission standards as


       9        prescribed by the State.  And those are


      10        standards, I believe, that are prescribed by the


      11        state of Washington, which, in turn, are


      12        different than the state of California.


      13             Should the state of Florida modify its


      14        standards, I can assure you that the Port of


      15        Jacksonville will mandate that those standards


      16        are met and complied with.


      17             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  But -- so for now, they


      18        can burn the higher sulfur compound?


      19             MR. FERRIN:  That's correct.


      20             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Waterfront use for the


      21        private citizens, what have you done to mitigate


      22        that?


      23             MR. FERRIN:  Well, one of the things that I


      24        think Mr. Kaufman has probably pointed out is


      25        that we're talking about a terminal that will





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        handle not two or three or four vessels at any


       2        one time.  This is a terminal that will handle


       3        one vessel at a time.


       4             We are talking about a berth that's about a


       5        thousand feet in length, and that's somewhat --


       6        a little bit longer than the average -- than the


       7        size of the largest vessels which are just small


       8        enough to get through the Panama Canal.  So


       9        we're talking about a 900, 960-foot vessel.  So


      10        that --


      11             The plan that we have is for a terminal


      12        that will handle one vessel at a time, just one


      13        vessel at a time.  That means that if we have


      14        one ship, that vessel calls three times roughly


      15        every two weeks.  If we have two vessels, you


      16        just simply double that.  If you have three


      17        vessels, well, it's not quite a double because


      18        if we had three vessels, we'd have it probably


      19        going out on week-long cruises or maybe a


      20        five-night cruise and a nine-night cruise every


      21        two weeks to give you some variation.


      22             So what that means is you've probably got


      23        half of the month that you don't have a vessel


      24        at the dock, that we're not operating the cruise


      25        terminal.  And during those periods, we would do





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        our absolute utmost to make the facility


       2        available to the local community for their use


       3        and the waterfront accessible to the local


       4        community as well.


       5             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  So during half the


       6        month, I can walk down the promenade --


       7             MR. FERRIN:  That is the plan.


       8             MR. JOOST:  -- if you will?


       9             MR. FERRIN:  Yes, sir.


      10             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Shrimpers and dockings


      11        and available slips, what have you done to


      12        mitigate that?


      13             MR. FERRIN:  There are the -- I would


      14        probably ask Tony Orsini to come up and give you


      15        the actual numbers and exactly where the boats


      16        have gone and what's happened to the boats that


      17        were derelict, that were not under power, that


      18        were not working boats versus the boats that are


      19        working.


      20             And I think Tony can also explain what we


      21        have in the future, the possibility of the


      22        basin, use of the basin as a fishermen's wharf


      23        area, and also the construction of some sort of


      24        a berthing dock that might be just to the side


      25        of the basin that we purchased.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             So, if I could, Councilmember Joost, I'd


       2        ask Tony Orsini to come up and address that.


       3             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Tony.


       4             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening,


       6        Mr. Chairman, Councilmen.


       7             My name is Tony Orsini.  I'm the senior


       8        director of the Jacksonville Port Authority,


       9        2831 Talleyrand Avenue.  And I am director of


      10        cruise operations.  I run the cruise board.


      11             And to -- let's see.  You want to talk


      12        about the shrimp boats first.  Let me talk


      13        specifics about the shrimp boats.


      14             When the Jacksonville Port Authority took


      15        over the property owned by the Rolands, we went


      16        out and did a survey of all the boats that were


      17        tied up to that property, and we --


      18             If you'll allow, I'm going to read off the


      19        names of those boats.  They were the Nancy Lee,


      20        the Family Tradition, the Miss Yvonne, the


      21        Miss Rosa, the Lindsey Nicole, the Captain


      22        Flossy --


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, slow down a little


      24        bit.  Our court reporter is trying to keep up


      25        with you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. ORSINI:  I'm sorry.  I'll give her a


       2        copy of this.


       3             The Captain Flossy, the Miss Lillia, the


       4        Miss Aileen, the Lady Amelia, the Queen Bee, the


       5        Brat, the Blue Runner, the Melinda Gail, the


       6        Miss Marie, the Jessica Lynn, the Ragin Cajun,


       7        and I'll try to pronounce this last one --


       8        Nguyen, N-g-y-y-e-n.


       9             Those were the boats that were at our


      10        facility when we took ownership of the


      11        property.  There were five boats that were


      12        identified during our purchase negotiations that


      13        were active shrimpers that brought fish back in


      14        and shrimp back in regularly to be processed and


      15        sold.  Those were the first five boats that I


      16        read.


      17             We agreed at that time that we would make


      18        sure to provide those working boats with a berth


      19        someplace so they could continue their


      20        operation, and we have done so.


      21             The Lindsey Nicole has elected not to use


      22        our facility.  They relocated to Gerald Pack's


      23        property at Safe Harbor.  But we provided dock


      24        space at our Hornblower Marine facility for the


      25        other four boats, and they are docked there





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        currently and will stay there.


       2             Of the other boats, there were six of the


       3        smaller boats that elected to -- and, of course,


       4        we asked them to leave, but they moved over to


       5        Singleton's.  Singleton's prepared some dockage


       6        there, and they all moved over there and that's


       7        where they've been for several months and seem


       8        to be doing fine.


       9             One of the boats that I really didn't count


      10        as an active boat was the Captain Flossy.  It


      11        had not moved from the dock for more than a


      12        year.  I don't know how many years that it had


      13        been sitting there, but it was not a fisherman.


      14        It just sat there.  And Miss Lillia, the


      15        Miss Lillia had no engine in the boat and had


      16        not moved for more than a year also.


      17             So, in fact, we displaced a total of three


      18        boats.  And those three boats, I really don't


      19        know where they went.  They moved to other


      20        facilities.


      21             So in our promise to build on the new


      22        facility, we have elected, first of all, to the


      23        four boats that are tied up at Hornblower Marine


      24        that, of course -- that facility would be


      25        developed in the new terminal.  We would rebuild





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the docks that are at the westernmost end of


       2        where the Safe Harbor Marine is.


       3             We own the basin that is right next to the


       4        Coast Guard station, and there is 150 feet of --


       5        150, 160 feet of dockage there that has fallen


       6        into the river.  There's nothing left but


       7        pilings standing up, but we own that property


       8        now, and so we would rebuild that facility to


       9        dock those four boats and provide those boats


      10        with continued dockage.


      11             The basin that is alongside the Coast Guard


      12        station offers a completely different and maybe


      13        a new facility for the boaters.  We're looking


      14        at that in the future to develop that area and


      15        to some type of a marina that would make room


      16        for the commercial industry as well as the


      17        recreational industry, but we have not settled


      18        in on plans for that as yet.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Joost.


      20             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Because I -- last week


      21        I actually went out there and talked with one of


      22        the shrimpers as he's pulling up, and his main


      23        concern was the docking capacity out there


      24        because what they've done is they've doubled up


      25        at Singleton's.  And so when the waves and wakes





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        from the other boats come in, they're banging up


       2        against each other and causing damage to each


       3        other's ships.


       4             And he had said -- and I'm just repeating


       5        what I was told -- he used to park down where


       6        the Port Authority land was.  And I don't know


       7        if he's one of the four that you were talking


       8        about, but he used to park at the other spot.


       9             Now it's $300 a month, and his main concern


      10        was docking capacity, and he told me --


      11             MR. ORSINI:  Well, I can tell you that --


      12             MR. JOOST:  And so in your plans, it's only


      13        for the four shrimp boats?


      14             MR. ORSINI:  Yes.  The immediate plans are


      15        to continue the commitment that we made to those


      16        four boats.  Those are the immediate plans.


      17             MR. JOOST:  It seems like the need is --


      18        just from my observation, is a little higher


      19        than the four boats, judging by the number of


      20        boats I saw tied up to each other --


      21             MR. ORSINI:  Well --


      22             MR. JOOST:  -- just because they said they


      23        didn't have anywhere else to dock.


      24             MR. ORSINI:  Well, you know, the practice


      25        of breasting boats on any dock is a common





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        practice.  That's been around for ages.  And as


       2        a matter of fact, when we took over the


       3        property, most of the boats out there had --


       4        were breasted up one, two boats on top of each


       5        other with fenders in between.


       6             MR. JOOST:  Would they be able to --


       7             MR. ORSINI:  That's very common.


       8             MR. JOOST:  Let me ask you this:  Would


       9        they be able to double breast at your facility


      10        since the four -- we could be talking about, you


      11        know, eight or nine, ten boats.


      12             MR. ORSINI:  No.  I think the practicality


      13        of the boats of this size -- these are the


      14        65-foot boats.  These are the larger shrimp


      15        boats, and the facility that we would provide


      16        for them to -- for those boats would be four


      17        boats because currently they're at our


      18        Hornblower facility, and they are breasted at


      19        the Hornblower facility right now.


      20             MR. JOOST:  Well, me, personally, I would


      21        like to see some more shrimp boat capacity for


      22        these guys.  That was the main concern.


      23             Mr. Ferrin, I'm just curious.  How many


      24        lease agreements and/or commitments are in place


      25        right now for the new facility?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. FERRIN:  How many lease agreements are


       2        in place for the new facility?


       3             MR. JOOST:  Or just say, you know,


       4        commitment letters, memos of understanding,


       5        whatever you have, if you will, for the new


       6        terminal.


       7             MR. FERRIN:  We do not have any contracts


       8        right now for the new terminal.  What we do have


       9        is we have various -- we have -- we have


      10        letters, I believe.  Again, I have to check with


      11        David Kaufman to see whether it's a memorandum


      12        or a letter.


      13             But we do have tremendous interest that has


      14        been shown by the cruise industry, by Royal


      15        Caribbean, Norwegian Cruise Lines, and Carnival


      16        in the development of a new cruise terminal that


      17        does not have the air draft limitation, and also


      18        puts them within a community.


      19             So really what we have now is nothing


      20        that's going to be binding in court.  We have


      21        nothing that says we have guaranteed income.


      22             MR. JOOST:  Right.


      23             Okay.  Here's -- just being a numbers guy,


      24        here's my biggest hurdle, is -- is we're going


      25        to build a long-term asset basically because we





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        can't get a long-term commitment from the -- you


       2        know, from Carnival, from the cruise liners.


       3        What we're -- what we're doing is we're taking


       4        short-term revenue to pay for a long-term


       5        asset.


       6             I know this doesn't directly address the


       7        zoning, per se, but I do feel as an at-large


       8        councilman and because we are a consolidated


       9        city, governmental entity, I do feel that it is


      10        a valid question.  And help me get over that


      11        hurdle because in this environment that seems --


      12        that seems to be a -- you're asking me to take a


      13        higher risk than what normally I would be


      14        comfortable taking financially.


      15             MR. FERRIN:  Councilmember Joost, you're


      16        right.  In the Carnival business, the sorts of


      17        commitments that we have are generally if


      18        they -- if we are going to be building a


      19        terminal as we did for TraPac, as we will for


      20        Hanjin, we're looking at 30-year commitments,


      21        possibly 30-year commitments with 10-year


      22        options at the end of that, so we have long-term


      23        commitments.  That's much more than the norm in


      24        the cargo industry.


      25             In the past, when we have not had to make





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        major investments or we had capital funds


       2        available or these were long -- these were


       3        facilities that we had had at the Port Authority


       4        in our inventory for many years, we did not look


       5        for these extremely long-term commitments.


       6             But when we're out there building -- you're


       7        absolutely correct.  When we're out there


       8        building a new facility, it is our -- it is our


       9        policy to go out and get a long-term commitment


      10        so that we have a guaranteed flow of income to


      11        service the debt so we can maintain a debt


      12        service coverage ratio that in turn maintains


      13        our bond rating.


      14             The cruise industry, I will tell you, is


      15        truly an anomaly in that the cruise lines do not


      16        and have never given long-term commitments on


      17        the order of the major steamship lines carrying


      18        cargo, whether it's a Hanjin or it's a Maersk


      19        line or any one of the major steamship lines.


      20             What we have seen is we've seen history.


      21        David Kaufman, I can tell you, is very adept at


      22        talking about the history of the cruise lines,


      23        and I think he may have addressed this with you,


      24        but you have a situation where, if you have a


      25        cruise line -- and what we have seen in other





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        ports like Galveston, what we've seen in other


       2        ports like Tampa, when they come in and they


       3        begin and they start an operation, they have


       4        very thoroughly vetted or researched the market.


       5             I think what we've done here in the past


       6        five years is truly extraordinary.  We have


       7        shown that we do have a niche in this market.


       8        That niche, as a lot of people this evening have


       9        discussed, is a drive-to market.  We are an


      10        ideal drive-to market.  We sit at a confluence


      11        of interstate highways.  You can reach a third


      12        of the country by truck.  And I know you've


      13        heard this before, I apologize, but it works for


      14        cargo, it works for passengers as well.


      15             So I think we're ideally located.  And


      16        unless the cruise industry just completely


      17        collapses for some reason, I think we're going


      18        to be a viable home port.


      19             I think that if we have the -- I mean, if


      20        you take a look at what we've done in the last


      21        five years, starting off with the -- with the --


      22        excuse me -- with the Celebration, which was a


      23        smaller vessel, which, I believe, was a


      24        Holiday-class vessel, and she carried -- she


      25        only carried about 1,650 passengers, and they





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        replaced her and they brought in a Fantasy-class


       2        vessel that carries well over 2,000 passengers.


       3             If you look at the bookings that we've had


       4        out of Jacksonville, where we are booking at 110


       5        to 112 percent every single cruise, which means


       6        more than double occupancy, you can see that we


       7        have a good history, and that indicates that


       8        they are committed to us.


       9             What we hear from them --


      10             MR. JOOST:  Is that trend still holding


      11        true through October?


      12             MR. FERRIN:  I would have to --


      13             MR. ORSINI:  Yes, it is.


      14             MR. FERRIN:  That's what I thought.  I just


      15        wanted to make sure.


      16             MR. JOOST:  I actually had done some


      17        research, and it says, "Unlike the lodging


      18        industry, the cruise companies are solely


      19        dependent upon leisure travelers for their


      20        business," so that kind of threw up a red flag


      21        for me.


      22             But it said, "The cruise lines had been


      23        fortunate for much of the year in that top-line


      24        demand remained relatively strong, even as the


      25        economy has deteriorated.  Booking trends had





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        remained favorable and occupancy rates continue


       2        to be solid."


       3             And then it went on further to say,


       4        "Although they anticipate some weakness in the


       5        booking trends, much of the negative impact will


       6        be offset by the dramatic decline in fuel prices


       7        realized in recent months.  As one might


       8        imagine, for ships of such an enormous size, the


       9        price of fuel is by far the most significant


      10        operating expense in the cruise line industry.


      11             "As fuel prices rose over the last year,


      12        the operating margins of the cruise lines were


      13        under pressure.  But the fact that crude oil has


      14        fallen by nearly two-thirds from its peak this


      15        summer, this has significantly reduced the


      16        company's operating expenses going forward, and


      17        we believe that this reality is currently


      18        reflected in the share price."


      19             And they actually recommended a buy on this


      20        particular cruise line industry, so . . .


      21             And they further went on to say that, "We


      22        continue to believe that many consumers would


      23        prefer to cut back on day-to-day expenditures as


      24        opposed to foregoing an annual vacation" and


      25        that the perceived value offered by the cruise





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        lines remains high relative to other potential


       2        vacation trips.


       3             Would you like to comment on that?


       4             MR. FERRIN:  Well, Councilmember Joost,


       5        that's -- that's our position.  I would agree


       6        with that, that assessment.


       7             What we have seen is -- if we have been in


       8        a recession for the last year, we have not seen


       9        a measurable or a tangible decrease in the


      10        number of passengers wanting to go on cruises


      11        out of Jacksonville.


      12             We really -- we are a low-cost vacation


      13        because that aviation element of the cruise


      14        vacation is eliminated here, which eliminates


      15        considerable cost and complication.


      16             So I think that if we have families that


      17        are looking for a low-cost vacation on the


      18        four- or five-day scale, Jacksonville and the


      19        cruises out of Jacksonville provide exactly that


      20        opportunity.


      21             I think also as you look at -- and back to


      22        the previous question which ties in, is you look


      23        at the history of the cruise lines here -- or


      24        the cruise line, singular, here in Jacksonville,


      25        it's been very positive.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             If you look at the history of the cruise


       2        lines in other ports that have had a similar


       3        sort of experience as that which they have


       4        enjoyed here in Jacksonville over the last five


       5        years, you've seen continued deployment and


       6        deployment of larger and more vessels.


       7             So while I don't think we're going to ever


       8        get to a point where I've got a 20-year contract


       9        with Carnival, nor do I think we're going to get


      10        Carnival to come to the table and say we would


      11        like to invest in the cruise terminal ourselves,


      12        I think what we will be able to find is we will


      13        be able to find a degree of certainty that will


      14        allow us to either raise the money in the bond


      15        market or find a private sector financier as a


      16        three-P to join with us in a partnership, a


      17        public/private partnership, for the development


      18        of the cruise terminal.


      19             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And then one last


      20        question as to procedure.


      21             Personally, for me as a council member, I


      22        would have liked your board to have taken a


      23        position first and vetted a lot of this out,


      24        especially on the financial side because, I


      25        mean, really, within this body, we're





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        determining more of the zoning issue, if you


       2        will.


       3             Can you explain to me why are we voting


       4        tonight before your board has voted?


       5             MR. FERRIN:  Right.  I understand that your


       6        concern is that --


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead.


       8             MR. FERRIN:  -- Mr. Chairman, is that we


       9        have maybe an egg in front of a chicken or a


      10        chicken in front of an egg or a cart and a horse


      11        in the wrong place, but I would respectfully


      12        submit that what we are doing here is we are


      13        trying to line up all of the things that we


      14        need.  We needed to purchase the property.  We


      15        needed to make sure that the zoning was in place


      16        and that we could actually build the facility.


      17             The whole idea here -- and with the


      18        greatest respect for this body -- was that we


      19        wanted to come and make sure that we could do


      20        what we want to do, and that's build a cruise


      21        terminal in Mayport.  And I wanted to be able to


      22        present that to the board of directors at the


      23        Port Authority, along with a very comprehensive


      24        look at the finances, of the economic history,


      25        of the economic projections, how would we go





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        about building it, how would we go about


       2        financing it, and all of those decisions.


       3             So at a workshop, I believe, on about the


       4        26th of January, then the board members would


       5        actually be able to make a decision of yes or


       6        no, go for it, and not a condition decision that


       7        would be conditioned upon going back to City


       8        Council.


       9             So I do beg your pardon for making -- maybe


      10        coming to this body in advance.  I know it seems


      11        like maybe we should have gone to the board


      12        first and then come to you afterwards, but I


      13        think to be able to carry this thing forward in


      14        a linear fashion so that we can get to a very


      15        definite and well-defined decision point, we


      16        needed to come to you first.


      17             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Well, Mr. Ferrin, thank


      18        you for coming down tonight.


      19             I have no further questions.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  I was going to answer that


      21        question for you because I figure by the time


      22        we're done with you, the price you thought it


      23        was going to be is probably not quite what it's


      24        going to be.


      25             MR. FERRIN:  Actually a good point, yeah.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Anyway, we're actually going


       2        to take a break here for about ten minutes


       3        because our court reporter, her poor little


       4        fingers need to rest.  We normally go for about


       5        two hours at a time.


       6             So we're going to take about a five-minute


       7        break, and so we'll just recess for five minutes


       8        and we'll be back.


       9             Thanks.


      10             (Brief recess.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Let's get back


      12        to business.


      13             We need to get in the proper order.  We


      14        have closed the public hearing on -892 and


      15        -893.  We need for somebody to move the bill


      16        for -892.


      17             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  And I need for somebody to


      19        second it.


      20             MR. JOOST:  Second.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  We have moved and seconded


      22        -892.  Now, discussion.


      23             Mr. Holt.


      24             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


      25             I have about six or seven issues that I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        want to go through one by one, and some of my


       2        questions will be to the Planning Department and


       3        some to the folks from the Port.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Now, just before you get


       5        into that, remember we're on the land use now.


       6        I don't know if -- what of your stuff has to do


       7        with the PUD and what of it has to do with the


       8        land use.


       9             MR. HOLT:  Okay.


      10             MR. JOOST:  (Inaudible.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's fine.


      12             MR. HOLT:  It's pretty much all land use


      13        related.  I'm not going to get into the nuts and


      14        bolts of the PUD.


      15             Mr. Crofts or Mr. Kelly or whoever thinks


      16        that they can answer this question best, when I


      17        was looking into this issue, one of the things


      18        that first struck me was that the CGC land use


      19        does have an allowed use for a passenger


      20        terminal, and so does the Mayport overlay.  And


      21        there is another passenger ship a couple of


      22        parcels down that does day cruises.  Can you


      23        tell me why we're even here discussing this


      24        considering those facts?


      25             MR. CROFTS:  Yes, sir.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Through the Chair to Mr. Holt, the --


       2        probably the -- a couple of the overriding


       3        things here have to deal with the Port Master


       4        Plan as it exists, which is a component of the


       5        comprehensive plan in that it says that -- it


       6        actually has a policy within the Port Master


       7        Plan which requires, at this point, any


       8        facilities that are of a cruise ship activity or


       9        development that they actually have this


      10        particular land use rather than a


      11        commercial/general land use.


      12             MR. HOLT:  Can I stop you for just a


      13        second?


      14             So what you just said was the reason that


      15        we're changing the land use is because in their


      16        master plan they require that their cruise ship


      17        terminal would have water dependent/water


      18        related --


      19             MR. CROFTS:  In the existing --


      20             MR. HOLT:  -- not anything that we as a


      21        City would require because we as a City and, I


      22        guess, the State are perfectly fine with a CGC


      23        land use for a cruise terminal?


      24             MR. CROFTS:  I would think that -- the


      25        first part of your statement was correct.  That





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        was a large part of it, I think, as you go


       2        through the interpretation of it, but there is


       3        a -- the fact that the conservation coastal


       4        management JaxPort sub-element requires it is a


       5        primary stipulation in itself.


       6             I think if you go back and look and


       7        evaluate the land uses as well, you will see


       8        that port related and port development and port


       9        related land uses in the water dependent/water


      10        related are oriented to these types of uses, so


      11        I think it's inherent in the land use category.


      12             Now, the fact that there's an existing


      13        casino cruise ship terminal -- or facility out


      14        there, it's not viewed in the same way, it's not


      15        necessarily a port-related type of use and it's


      16        more of a recreation, entertainment, which sort


      17        of relates to a marina-type activity, which is


      18        more in the CGC land use category.


      19             But, first and foremost, it's already in


      20        the comprehensive plan, in the Port Master Plan,


      21        that these types of uses be this particular type


      22        of land use.


      23             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  So the difference, I


      24        guess, between the SunCruz and this would be the


      25        intensity and, therefore, everyone kind of felt





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        like it was best to move into a land use


       2        category that was securely okay for a major


       3        cruise terminal?


       4             MR. CROFTS:  That would be a good


       5        summarization.


       6             What I've been trying to say here is the


       7        fact that it is already, number one, a part of


       8        the plan -- required as part of the plan, and


       9        also the use is more related and part of the


      10        water dependent/water related, which emphasizes,


      11        if you look at the category, port-related uses


      12        and development, which this particular use


      13        embellishes.


      14             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Thank you.


      15             Through the Chair to Mr. Crofts again,


      16        there was some mention this evening about the


      17        Navy possibly having a problem with this,


      18        specifically for the height and possibly because


      19        of traffic.  Do we have any response from the


      20        Navy that -- anything at all that would indicate


      21        that they have a problem with this?


      22             MR. CROFTS:  As part of the land use and


      23        the rezoning, there was communication, an


      24        attachment that's provided as part of your


      25        report, that says that the Navy has no objection





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to this particular use, and that is part of the


       2        record and in your particular report to you and


       3        the committee -- other committee members.


       4             MR. HOLT:  Who is it that we communicate


       5        with over there?  Who made the statement that


       6        they have no problem with it, that they have no


       7        objection?


       8             MR. CROFTS:  The --


       9             MR. HOLT:  I'm just asking this because --


      10        I mean, that's very important to me, that we


      11        support the Navy.  And, frankly, if they had a


      12        problem with it, there's no way I would sign off


      13        on it.  I would oppose it as well.


      14             MR. CROFTS:  As part of the -- you know,


      15        the AICUZ process that we went through, we've


      16        had, you know, the amendment to the zoning code,


      17        Part 10.  We've had extensive coordination with


      18        Jax NAS, the Navy.


      19             This particular communication was from a


      20        gentlemen by the name of McCann [sic].


      21             I would defer to Bill Killingsworth if he's


      22        got that particular communication.


      23             Bill or Kristen, if you wouldn't mind


      24        interjecting.


      25             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Through the Chair to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the council member, if you'll look on page 30


       2        for the report to this, that's the e-mail from


       3        the Navy.  The e-mail was from a Michael McVann


       4        (phonetic), and there he states that, "As we


       5        have discussed, the existing Part 10 heightened


       6        hazard surfaces use a step approach and do not


       7        exactly replicate the sloped surfaces that the


       8        Navy uses.  Therefore, although the proposed


       9        JaxPort PUD exceeds the Part 10 height zones for


      10        Naval Station Mayport, they are well under our


      11        seven-to-one transition slope service.


      12             "Naval Station Mayport has no objection to


      13        the proposed PUD zoning and land use amendment


      14        for the Mayport cruise terminal."


      15             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, sir.


      16             Okay.  Through the Chair to Mr. Crofts


      17        again, there's some changes to the road, to


      18        Ocean Street, that are going to be made as part


      19        of the PUD, but there's also a plan, I guess, by


      20        FDOT to make some changes to Ocean Street, A1A


      21        as it goes back out toward Atlantic Beach.


      22             Could you tell us a little more in detail


      23        what is going to be done?  And, specifically, if


      24        you could address the elevation of the road in


      25        the area where there's been a flooding problem.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I understand that if you have particularly


       2        high tides, if the moon is right and the tide is


       3        right, water floods the road and stops all


       4        traffic.  Is that going to be addressed in the


       5        FDOT plans, and when will those road changes


       6        occur?


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  I can actually answer that


       8        question.


       9             I spoke to DOT today, and that's going to


      10        happen -- they're going to let the contract in


      11        February of '09, and the project should


      12        hopefully start in May of '09.  And they plan on


      13        actually raising that section of the road on top


      14        of resurfacing all the way out to the end, to


      15        the lighthouse.


      16             MR. HOLT:  Excellent.  Thank you,


      17        Mr. Chair.


      18             And I guess this question could go to


      19        either the Planning Department or somebody from


      20        JaxPort if they want to jump in and give me some


      21        information on this.


      22             We've heard a lot about pollution tonight.


      23        Let's start off with air pollution.


      24             Mr. Crofts, do we have any information, do


      25        we have any case law that supports the idea that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        cruise ship emissions have caused health


       2        problems?


       3             There was one gentleman who came up here


       4        and said that it's been proven that bunker C


       5        fuel kills children.  Now, when you make a


       6        statement like that, I guess it's coming from


       7        some sort of case history.  Do we have any


       8        information on any health problems related to


       9        cruise ships?


      10             And if the JaxPort folks want to jump up to


      11        the mic and tell me if they have any


      12        information, that would be great too.


      13             MR. CROFTS:  To Mr. Holt, through the


      14        Chair, for your particular interest, we have


      15        provided somebody from our Environmental Quality


      16        Division.  Mr. Robinson is here this evening,


      17        and I think he's prepared to address this


      18        particular issue as it may exist in terms of the


      19        potential impacts in air quality in the city of


      20        Jacksonville, this particular use, as well as


      21        provide maybe some more specific information


      22        with regard to this particular bunker C fuel.


      23             MR. HOLT:  That would be great.


      24             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, name and address for





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the record, please.


       2             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Richard


       3        Robinson.  I work for the Environmental Quality


       4        Division, 117 West Duval Street, Jacksonville,


       5        Florida 32202.


       6             As far as the burning of bunker C fuel at


       7        the dock, I have not been provided, really, any


       8        information on how much fuel they plan to burn


       9        in order to determine if there would be -- you


      10        know, what the exact impact might be, but


      11        currently, the City of Jacksonville is in


      12        attainment with all the National Ambient Air


      13        Quality Standards.


      14             Looking at our emission inventory that's


      15        been done, currently ship emissions in


      16        Jacksonville count for approximately 4 percent


      17        of the total mobile source NOx emissions and


      18        2 percent of total NOx emissions from all source


      19        categories.


      20             MR. HOLT:  And when you say shipping, you


      21        mean all ships, not just cruise ships?


      22             MR. ROBINSON:  Right, all ships that would


      23        enter Jacksonville.


      24             Currently, the -- on October 9th of this


      25        year, the International Maritime Organization





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        has adopted some new standards for engines and


       2        fuels for oceangoing vessels, and the EPA has


       3        also proposed some more stringent standards for


       4        these oceangoing vessels.  It's certainly in the


       5        proposed stage right now, which would reduce the


       6        sulfur content and the NOx emissions from


       7        oceangoing vessels.  The standards, the way


       8        they're proposed, though, would be phased in


       9        over a period of years.


      10             Also, as part of the standards, areas which


      11        are considered a nonattainment for the National


      12        Ambient Air Quality Standards, they have the --


      13        they consider those emission control areas, and


      14        the standards would be more stringent and phased


      15        in sooner in those areas.  So some areas, like


      16        in California, that have had problems with their


      17        air quality, the standards would be even more


      18        stringent.


      19             MR. HOLT:  Mr. Robinson, let me stop you


      20        right there and ask you a little more pointed


      21        question.


      22             Do you know of any cases locally or


      23        anywhere else that cruise ship emissions have


      24        caused a problem?  Have they ever been cited, or


      25        have you researched this and found any





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        indication that cruise ship emissions have


       2        caused health problems?


       3             MR. ROBINSON:  I have no information that


       4        would actually support that.


       5             Most information we look at is -- as far as


       6        whether the ship emissions would have an impact


       7        on us meeting the National Ambient Air Quality


       8        Standards when it comes to public health issues,


       9        that really has to be addressed by the Health


      10        Department.


      11             I haven't had a lot of time to do any


      12        research on this subject.  I haven't -- so I'm


      13        not sure that -- I have not seen anything that


      14        would indicate that.


      15             MR. HOLT:  Well, I appreciate you giving me


      16        the information you have, and I'll do a little


      17        more research between now and next week's


      18        council meeting maybe with the FDEP.


      19             But thank you very much, sir.


      20             MR. ROBINSON:  You're welcome.


      21             MR. HOLT:  Through the Chair, could I get


      22        Mr. Kaufman or somebody -- whoever with the Port


      23        you think would be best to handle this question,


      24        and it is about the handling of waste water and


      25        any other kind of water pollution from the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        cruise lines.


       2             (Mr. Orsini approaches the podium.)


       3             MR. HOLT:  That would be a Tony issue?


       4             Get the engineer out here.


       5             MR. ORSINI:  Through the Chair to


       6        Mr. Holt -- yes, sir.


       7             MR. HOLT:  I've heard you describe the


       8        process before, but there may be other folks


       9        here who have not, and I'd like for you to


      10        explain to us what exactly is coming off of


      11        these ships and where it's coming off.


      12             MR. ORSINI:  Okay.  Let's start with the


      13        ship in the port.  When she is tied up at the


      14        dock, there is absolutely nothing that comes out


      15        of the ship that goes into the water, nothing.


      16             The ship discharges its waste water and its


      17        garbage -- let me talk about those one at a


      18        time.


      19             There's a product called bilge water.  That


      20        is the water that collects in the bilge of the


      21        ship and it is commonly referred to also as oily


      22        waste.  That material is taken off the ship by


      23        pumps when it is at our dock.  It is put into


      24        tanker trucks, typically 8,000-gallon tanker


      25        trucks, and then it is hauled off of the port by





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        licensed contractors who are properly equipped


       2        to handle and dispose of that waste.


       3             The oily bilge water is done at the port.


       4        It is done in an environmentally-controlled


       5        fashion.  There's booms around the trucks, booms


       6        around the hoses.  Nothing comes out that goes


       7        into the environment except going into the


       8        trucks and off for disposal.


       9             The sewage, if we may talk about sewage


      10        from the ship.  Cruise ships do, and all


      11        oceangoing vessels do discharge their sewage


      12        waste at sea.  Cruise lines, they go through --


      13        they take their sewage through primary and


      14        secondary treatment on board the ship and then


      15        they discharge at sea no closer than 12 miles to


      16        any shoreline and at a speed of no less than six


      17        knots to avoid any concentration at sea.


      18             They do the same with their gray water.


      19        Gray water is laundry water.  And although the


      20        regulations allow them to dump gray water within


      21        three miles of any shoreline, the cruise lines,


      22        and Carnival especially, says that their policy


      23        is to treat it also as they do sewage.  It is


      24        not discharged within 12 miles of any shoreline


      25        and is also done at a minimum speed of six





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        knots.


       2             Garbage.  Garbage is incinerated, and it is


       3        incinerated no closer than 12 miles to any


       4        shoreline also.


       5             Let's talk about trash.  There is a lot of


       6        glass and metals that come off the ship in ways


       7        of bottles and cans.  The glass is taken off the


       8        ship in two categories, in clear and in colored


       9        glass.  It is packaged, it is plastic wrapped.


      10        It comes off the ships on pallets.  It is put


      11        into containers on our dock and contractors pick


      12        this up and take -- and this glass is taken to


      13        recycling centers.


      14             They do the same with metals.  They take


      15        ferrous metals, they take aluminums.  They


      16        separate them.  They are plastic wrapped,


      17        palletized.  They come off the ship, go into


      18        containers.  And, again, are taken off by


      19        contractors and go to recycling centers.


      20             And then there's a certain amount of


      21        paper.  The paper is separated into white paper


      22        and to cardboards, and those are recycled also.


      23             And then there's just plain trash that


      24        comes off the boat.  That does get, again,


      25        wrapped up and palletized and it does go to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        landfills.


       2             I think that covers just about everything


       3        that comes off the ship.


       4             There is some hazardous materials.  Most of


       5        the hazardous materials on the ship are


       6        photographic materials.  These are the chemicals


       7        that they use to produce and print photographs.


       8        These also are taken off the ship.  They come


       9        off and -- I believe it's 32-gallon


      10        polypropylene drums, but they come off in sealed


      11        drums and they are also taken by contractors


      12        that are licensed to dispose of this type of


      13        material.


      14             MR. HOLT:  If they even use that technology


      15        anymore.


      16             MR. ORSINI:  Yes, they do a little bit.


      17             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Well, thank you very


      18        much.  You've answered the question very well.


      19             MR. ORSINI:  Thank you.


      20             MR. HOLT:  The environmental issues were


      21        one of the things that I keyed in on.  That was


      22        very important to me, and I was glad that we had


      23        some folks here to speak about the other


      24        locations that have been considered, Pine Island


      25        being the one that was considered for quite a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        while.


       2             And, Ms. Goodman, I appreciate you coming


       3        down and telling us what your organization --


       4        how you feel about it.


       5             You know, we have talked about ecotourism


       6        and why it hasn't happened in eight years and


       7        what a cruise terminal might do to improve or


       8        detract from the chances of having more


       9        ecotourism in the area.


      10             Personally, I think that -- you know, we've


      11        spent several million dollars out there to try


      12        to work on the ecotourism plan, and I think we


      13        could spend 40 million more building a


      14        facility -- well, goodness.


      15             We could bring in a lot of new attractions,


      16        and I really don't think it would bring the


      17        private investment that would be necessary.  I


      18        don't think it's enough to say, you know,


      19        Mayport was here in 1562 and somebody landed


      20        here.  I don't think that people are going to


      21        come there so that they can look at a lighthouse


      22        through a fence.


      23             I actually spoke with a gentleman who did


      24        a study on this about eight years ago.


      25        Dr. Stephen Holland from the University of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Florida did our study on market opportunities


       2        for ecotourism.  Well, I called him up, and he


       3        said, you know, I think that a cruise terminal


       4        could have a positive impact on that.  I


       5        certainly don't see any possibility of a


       6        negative impact.


       7             So if we want to talk to the expert -- I


       8        called him over at the University of Florida,


       9        and he seemed to be of a positive outlook on the


      10        cruise terminal and the impact that it might


      11        have pre and post cruise excursions, and I'd


      12        certainly love to see them too.


      13             I'd love to see cruise ships have


      14        excursions before and after, where they send


      15        people out to Kingsley Plantation or golf


      16        packages or whatever, out on the preserve to


      17        kayak.  I think it would be great, but the


      18        economic impact was not really the issue to make


      19        a land use decision on for me.  I think it would


      20        be wrong to make a decision on land use based on


      21        whether it's going to bring jobs or not.  As


      22        many people said tonight, that would be unfair


      23        and it would be greedy to make our decision


      24        based on that.  So if anybody is making their


      25        decision based on how we're going to profit from





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the cruise terminal, I think that's wrong.


       2             But having said all of that, I think it


       3        comes down to an issue of property rights and


       4        what's best for the community.


       5             Most of this property, I believe, comes


       6        from a gentleman named Matt Roland, who used to


       7        run a seafood business, and most of the shrimp


       8        boats would dock behind there and sell their


       9        shrimp and seafood to him.


      10             I looked at a story from the Times Union


      11        earlier this year, and it says that -- where is


      12        it?  Mr. Roland said that at that point he had


      13        ten shrimpers using his docks and only four of


      14        them were making enough money to go out


      15        regularly.


      16             The shrimp and seafood business has gone


      17        downhill for a variety of reasons, the main one


      18        being imported seafood and recently the big


      19        spike in the cost of diesel fuel.


      20             But it comes down to a matter of property


      21        rights.  This gentleman sold his property to, I


      22        believe, Vestcor, who, in turn, later sold it to


      23        JaxPort, but he sold his property because he


      24        couldn't make a go of it in that business.  And


      25        for us to tell later owners of that property





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that we think that they shouldn't be able to use


       2        the property in a way that, as far as I can


       3        tell, is perfectly legal -- and if we were to


       4        deny it, it would put us in a legal bind because


       5        I think that the court could, in turn, come back


       6        and overturn any -- our decision if we denied


       7        this.


       8             They're in an area that is predominantly


       9        water related/water dependent, and I think it's


      10        a fair request that they go to the water


      11        related/water dependent where they are.


      12             I think I vetted all these issues pretty


      13        well.  I've gone through about six different


      14        issues:  pollution and the roadway and whether


      15        the Navy approves and environmental issues.


      16        I've spent probably 30 hours on this because


      17        this is in my district, and I took it very


      18        personally, making the right decision on this,


      19        what is right for the community and what is the


      20        right thing to do and the legal thing to do.


      21             I'm going to support this.  I think


      22        ultimately we will find that this decision will


      23        bring a better financial decision to the area.


      24        I think it will be a good financial decision to


      25        do that to the area, but that's not really the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        reason to make the decision.


       2             I think ultimately we need to -- we need to


       3        make a decision that -- as the legal one


       4        considering the property rights that these folks


       5        have, that's what we kind of deal with here in


       6        Land Use.


       7             I think I've covered the issue pretty


       8        well.  I may have other questions later, but at


       9        this point I would just encourage my colleagues


      10        to support it because I think it's the right


      11        thing for the community and I think it's the


      12        right decision.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Holt.


      14             Mr. Redman.


      15             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      16             And, thank you, Mr. Holt, for all the work


      17        that you've done in negotiating and working with


      18        both sides of this.


      19             And I too think that this can be a viable


      20        thing for the community as long as the


      21        preservation of the community is taken into


      22        consideration, you know, and preserving the


      23        historic resources of the community and the


      24        residential neighborhood.  These fine people


      25        deserve, you know, to be looked after and -- and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the care that they want.


       2             But there is one thing that was brought to


       3        my attention, the parking garage.  There's some


       4        thought that this could be put on the other side


       5        of the road, where you wouldn't have the dock


       6        area, the waterfront covered by a parking


       7        garage.  Has that ever -- somebody from the Port


       8        answer that for me?


       9             (Mr. Kaufman approaches the podium.)


      10             MR. KAUFMAN:  Dave Kaufman, 2831 Talleyrand


      11        Avenue.


      12             Through the Chair, yes, Councilman Redman,


      13        we did look at that option.  In fact, the


      14        original plan called for that arrangement, where


      15        we would have the parking garage on the south or


      16        east side of Ocean Street with the terminal on


      17        the other side, the water side.


      18             Several issues that we encountered in


      19        trying to do that:  One, it involved really


      20        putting the -- what was probably -- what is the


      21        largest of the structures into the residential


      22        neighborhood and up against residential homes


      23        much closer than we are today, and that became a


      24        concern from several of the residents we


      25        received phone calls from that were concerned





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that their home was now going to overlook this


       2        five-story parking garage.


       3             The other issues that we had were the


       4        number of parcels that would need to be acquired


       5        in order to accommodate that construction, which


       6        would have involved a few residences as well as


       7        a church that's in that area.


       8             And then the third factor from an


       9        operational perspective that caused us as much


      10        concern, if not more, is the fact that you would


      11        now end up with a transportation pattern where


      12        passengers would be dropped off at the terminal,


      13        the driver would then cross back across Ocean


      14        Street, park his car, and then have to go back


      15        across.  So you've got this continual loop of


      16        traffic across Ocean Street, which would impact


      17        the traffic flow through the village.


      18             By incorporating it all on the same side of


      19        the road, we're able to have that traffic flow,


      20        drop off your passenger and go directly into the


      21        parking garage without having to back -- and


      22        access Ocean Street again.  And so we keep all


      23        the traffic, once you've gone into the drop-off


      24        area, off of Ocean Street and eliminate that


      25        back-and-forth traffic flow.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             So I think it works better for the


       2        community in this fashion.


       3             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you.


       4             It was brought to my attention that some


       5        people would like to have it on the other side


       6        of the road so that the riverfront -- waterfront


       7        would be accessible --


       8             MR. KAUFMAN:  Well, we think by placing the


       9        garage where we did on the waterfront, which is


      10        at the southern end of the property, we're up


      11        against the Safe Harbor warehouse facility, so


      12        it becomes more compatible at that end of the


      13        property as opposed to in the middle of the


      14        village.


      15             And we also -- regarding the garage -- I


      16        think it's important to understand that the


      17        height of the garage is consistent with what the


      18        Mayport overlay calls for, which is a maximum


      19        height of 50 feet.  We're not asking for a


      20        waiver from that in any regard.


      21             We've also built into the facade of the


      22        garage -- actually, out in front of the facade


      23        of the garage, sticks out about 18 feet from the


      24        garage, the ground floor retail space so that as


      25        you're walking down the street what you're





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        encountering is, you know, the retail space with


       2        the garage set off back behind it so you don't


       3        have this wall effect, like you have on a lot of


       4        urban garage structures.


       5             MR. REDMAN:  If that garage was a little


       6        bit farther to the south and on the other side


       7        of the road, it wouldn't be in between the


       8        waterway and the houses, right?


       9             MR. KAUFMAN:  It would not be.  You would


      10        still have the traffic flow issue going back and


      11        forth across Ocean Street.  And that property


      12        also is, as far as I'm conc- -- know at this


      13        point, is not currently available.


      14             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have no further people on


      16        the queue, so  --


      17             MR. WEBB:  Move the amendment.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't think there's an


      19        amendment.


      20             MS. ELLER:  There is an amendment.  There's


      21        a technical amendment.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  What is the technical


      23        </