1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, December 2,
7 2008, commencing at 5:04 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 ART GRAHAM, Chair.
STEPHEN JOOST, Vice Chair.
14 REGGIE BROWN, Committee Member.
JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
15 RAY HOLT, Committee Member.
JACK WEBB, Committee Member.
16 DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
19 SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
BILL KILLINGSWORTH, Planning and Dev Dept.
20 KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
21
RICK CAMPBELL, Research Assistant.
22 MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
23
- - -
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 December 2, 2008 5:04 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everyone.
5 Let the record show it's Tuesday,
6 December 2nd. It's about four minutes after
7 5:00 p.m. This is the Land Use and Zoning
8 Committee.
9 And let's start over here with Mr. Crofts,
10 and let's introduce ourselves.
11 MR. CROFTS: My name is John Crofts. I'm
12 representing the Planning and Development
13 Department.
14 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
15 Development.
16 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
17 Development.
18 MS. ELLER: Shannon Eller, General
19 Counsel's Office.
20 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, Council
21 District 4.
22 DR. GAFFNEY: Councilman Gaffney,
23 District 7.
24 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt, District 11.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm Art Graham, District 13.
Diane M.
Tropia,
3
1 MR. JOOST: Stephen Joost, Group 3
2 at-large.
3 MR. BROWN: Reginald Brown, District 10.
4 MR. WEBB: Jack Webb, City Council,
5 District 6.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, I want to welcome
7 you to LUZ. I think you started off on a good
8 one.
9 Just for the information of the audience,
10 I'm going to go through the agenda real fast and
11 let everyone know the bills that we will be
12 voting on today. I decided to start doing this
13 several weeks ago so people don't sit in the
14 audience for a couple of hours and realize we're
15 not taking any action on their bill.
16 So I'll go through and let you know up
17 front if we're going to be voting on your bill
18 or not.
19 That all being said, we'll start with the
20 agenda on page 2. The entire first page,
21 2005-1228, 2006-24, and 2006-220, we're taking
22 no action on any of those.
23 2006-658, 2007-581, 2007-1086, we're taking
24 no action on those.
25 Top of page 4. 2008-414, -416, -418, we're
Diane M.
Tropia,
4
1 taking no action on those.
2 Top of page 5. -517-, -541, -542, -546, no
3 action on none of those.
4 Page 6. -549, -550, -552, -562, no action
5 on any of those.
6 Page 7. -565, we're taking action; -784,
7 we're taking no action; -799, we're taking no
8 action; -840, we're taking no action.
9 (Mr. Huxford enters the proceedings.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Page 8, -854, no action;
11 -880, no action; -889, we're taking action on
12 that one; -890, no action; -891, no action;
13 -892, we're taking action; -893, we're taking
14 action; -929, we're taking action on that one as
15 well.
16 -930, -931, -934, we're taking action on
17 those three. -935, no action; -936, no action;
18 -937, yes -- I'm sorry. -970, yes; -984, no
19 action.
20 All of page 12, we're taking no action.
21 All of page 13, we're taking no action.
22 Actually, we're referring -- we're amending or
23 rereferring one of those.
24 All of 14, we're taking no action.
25 All of 15, we're taking no action.
Diane M.
Tropia,
5
1 And that concludes the agenda.
2 Okay. That all being said, let's turn to
3 the top of page 5, 2008-517. There's a public
4 hearing. We'll open the public hearing.
5 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
6 public hearing and take no action.
7 Bottom of page 6. 2008-562, we'll open
8 that public hearing.
9 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
10 public hearing and take no action.
11 Top of page 7. 2008-565. We'll open that
12 public hearing.
13 We have one speaker, Joe Jamerson.
14 Sir, come on down.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Name and address for the
17 record, and you have three minutes to tell us
18 why.
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Joe Jamerson, 1755 Royal
21 Thank you.
22 I want to, first of all, thank you for
23 allowing me to speak on behalf of Mandarin
24 Assembly of God.
25 Ladies and gentlemen, we're asking you for
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 your support for our church, for our
2 congregation that consists of over 300 Mandarin
3 families as well as the many Mandarin residents
4 that look to our church to provide ministry for
5 their families.
6 We're asking you to support the Mandarin
7 community by granting a waiver on our request
8 for a new sign. The sign is precisely the same
9 size, the same shape, and the same location as
10 our current sign. The only difference is that
11 the new sign would have an LED message board.
12 The message board would be aesthetically
13 pleasing, the color of amber, not red.
14 To kind of briefly review how we've arrived
15 at where we are today, previously we were told
16 that our request for a new sign should pass
17 without -- the waiver without changes, but the
18 committee's recommendation was changed at the
19 last moment because of one person's voice. His
20 voice was heard over 300 people that represent
21 Mandarin, who are part of the ministries of our
22 campus.
23 Our church demonstrates the spirit of
24 cooperation as well as community. We've made
25 five concessions despite the fact that we were
Diane M.
Tropia,
7
1 told that we would not have to make any
2 compromises to be granted the waiver, and
3 despite the fact that our lone protester has
4 made no compromises. So our compromises have
5 been: We've changed the color of the sign from
6 red to amber. It's not going to be a
7 nonscrolling sign; it will be a stationary sign.
8 There was in our initial plan a little
9 round globe that was to be lit. That will not
10 be lit. The interior lit part of the sign will
11 be removed. And we've even consented to put a
12 timer on the sign so that the sign will be
13 turned off at night and then relit in the
14 morning so it will not present a safety hazard.
15 As a point of protest, you may hear that
16 Loretto Road is a typical residential street,
17 but the truth is it's a major thoroughfare and
18 it is by no stretch of the imagination a typical
19 residential street.
20 There's also already interior lit signage
21 at the convenience store that's very close to
22 the church as well as the end of both streets
23 and
24 And as just kind of an aside, we formerly
25 had an interior lit sign several years ago
Diane M.
Tropia,
8
1 before we bought our new property, and now we
2 have our other sign.
3 I want to assure you that all care has been
4 taken to assure the aesthetic appeal of our
5 sign, as our new sign will be much nicer than
6 the current one, which is kind of old and
7 rundown.
8 Finally, many in our community are asking
9 for a ministry for their children, their
10 families, education, as well as the Spanish and
11 Portuguese-speaking residents. Therefore, this
12 sign will enable us to better serve Mandarin.
13 We feel that it would be unfair and unjust to
14 deny the waiver request, especially after the
15 manner in which we have openly demonstrated our
16 spirit of compromise and community.
17 We're asking you to please grant our waiver
18 and we thank you very much for allowing us to
19 speak tonight.
20 Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
22 Your timing is pretty good. You had four
23 seconds left.
24 MR. JAMERSON: I worked on it today.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 Seeing there's no further speakers, we will
2 close that public hearing.
3 MR. WEBB: Move to grant.
4 MR. HOLT: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: There's an amendment to
6 grant and it's been seconded.
7 Can we hear from Ms. Eller?
8 MS. ELLER: Thank you.
9 Through the Chair, is -- the motion to
10 grant, does it include the conditions that were
11 read into the record by this previous speaker?
12 I heard about five conditions.
13 MR. WEBB: Through the Chair, I believe
14 they do, but I'll get confirmation of that from
15 Planning.
16 MR. KELLY: Through the Chair to
17 Councilmember Webb, I would reiterate, I guess,
18 the conditions of what we were -- the department
19 was contemplating, was that any internal
20 illumination would be limited to the changing
21 message device only.
22 Additionally, it will be a static message
23 and may not change more than once every three
24 minutes, that there be no scrolling or fade-in.
25 And, additionally, that the sign would
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 comply with the 20-foot setback of the district.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Let the record show I see
3 the applicant shaking his head yes.
4 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: So, Ms. Eller, that's yes.
6 MS. ELLER: Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have a motion and
8 a second on the amendment to grant the waiver.
9 Any further discussion?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the
12 amendment signify by saying aye.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
17 approved the amendment.
18 MR. WEBB: Move to grant.
19 MR. HOLT: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
21 seconded to grant.
22 Any further discussion on the bill?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
25 ballot.
Diane M.
Tropia,
11
1 (Committee ballot opened.)
2 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
10 the vote.
11 (Committee ballot closed.)
12 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
14 approved 2008-565.
15 2008-784. We will open the public hearing.
16 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
17 public hearing and take no further action.
18 -799, we'll open the public hearing.
19 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
20 public hearing and take no further action.
21 Top of page 8. 2008-854. We'll open the
22 public hearing.
23 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
24 public hearing and take no further action.
25 -889, we have a motion to withdraw.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. WEBB: Move to withdraw.
2 MR. JOOST: Second.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
4 to withdraw.
5 Any discussion on the withdrawal?
6 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
8 ballot.
9 (Committee ballot opened.)
10 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
18 the vote.
19 (Committee ballot closed.)
20 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
22 withdrawn -889.
23 You'll have to give me just a second. I'm
24 having a little problem with my queue here.
25 All right. We're good again.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 All right. Bottom of page 8 and top of
2 page 9, 2008-890 and -891, those are companions,
3 so we'll open that public hearing.
4 Seeing no speakers for neither one of
5 those, we'll continue that public hearing and
6 take no further action.
7 2008-892 and -893. We will open that
8 public hearing.
9 And I have several cards here, so we will
10 start at the beginning.
11 We're going to be speaking on both -892 and
12 -893 at the same time, so you come up and give
13 your name and address for the record and you've
14 got three minutes to speak.
15 And we will start off -- as I call your
16 name, make your way down front -- there's plenty
17 of empty seats -- so we can kind of expedite
18 this process.
19 Before we do that, let's do ex-parte
20 communications so you guys will know who's
21 talked to who.
22 Let's start on the end with Mr. Webb.
23 MR. WEBB: No.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: No.
25 Mr. Brown.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. BROWN: No.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost.
3 MR. JOOST: Yes. I've talked -- I've
4 spoken with Mr. Eric Green and Dave Kaufman of
5 the Port Authority in my office, and we just
6 discussed various aspects of the project.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir.
8 MR. WEBB: I apologize. I do rise to
9 declare ex-parte with Mr. Kaufman as well about
10 the project about two weeks ago.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: I didn't see you rise, sir.
12 MR. WEBB: I remain seated to declare
13 ex-parte. Thank you. Of course with my height,
14 it's hard to tell.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman -- no ex-parte
16 for Mr. Redman?
17 MR. REDMAN: No.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Gaffney.
19 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes. I too declare ex-parte
20 communication. I spoke with Mr. Green and
21 Mr. Kaufman in my office in reference to some of
22 the issues on that.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Holt.
24 MR. HOLT: Mr. Chairman, I have met with
25 Eric Green, Rick Ferrin, and Dave Kaufman today
Diane M.
Tropia,
15
1 and the day before yesterday. I also met with
2 Al Millar and Mickey Baldwin today, and had a
3 public meeting on this out in the community
4 about a year ago.
5 And those are the only people. I've met
6 with them on numerous occasions, but those are
7 the most recent.
8 Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I have taken a tour of the
10 facility with Eric Green, and I have met with --
11 specifically dealing with the -- with the
12 rezoning, I've met with Eric Green with the
13 Port.
14 Mr. Brown.
15 MR. BROWN: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
16 I also had a conversation with Mr. Green
17 and Mr. Kaufman on 12/1 just generalizing the
18 concerns that they had about Mayport.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I think that's it.
20 Let's go with the first speaker. Once
21 again, I'll call you two at a time. When you
22 hear your name, please make your way down front
23 so we can expedite this process.
24 I need your name and address for the
25 record. There's a digital clock in front of you
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 so you know you have three minutes to speak.
2 There's also this light tree here (indicating).
3 When the light turns yellow, know that you have
4 one minute left to conclude your comments.
5 That being said, we have several cards
6 here, so let's see if we can get through this.
7 The first one is Andrew Miller, followed by
8 Lucy -- I'm sorry if I butcher your last name --
9 Marhefka.
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Marhefka.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, ma'am.
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: That's all right.
13 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, name and address,
15 please.
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Andrew Miller.
17 Address is
18 Good evening, committee members. I want to
19 first thank you for taking the time to listen to
20 our concerns.
21 I object to the proposed amendment for many
22 reasons. First and foremost, there are known
23 and unknown environmental consequences to the
24 Timucuan Preserve, manatees in the
25 River. Bunker C fuel has been proven to
Diane M.
Tropia,
17
1 devastate and even kill human beings who breathe
2 in its emissions. And the agreed upon policies
3 of our comp plan are being subverted.
4 However, I understand and appreciate that
5 many of your concerns had to do with the
6 economic revitalization of the Village of
7 Mayport, and I agree that this is a valid
8 concern. It is to this concern that I wish to
9 speak to you tonight.
10 The proponents of the amendment have argued
11 that the cruise terminal will be a boom to the
12 local economy. But upon further review, any
13 benefit will be minimal, especially when
14 compared to the benefit provided by other
15 strategies, namely, the Mayport Visioning Plan.
16 The Mayport Visioning Plan centers around
17 the allure of ecotourism and thus provides a
18 better opportunity for economic growth and
19 security in the
20 Right now over 55 million
21 are classified as ecotourists, which means they
22 describe themselves as interested in nature,
23 culture, and heritage tourism, and this number
24 is growing.
25 Current estimates find that ecotourism is
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 among the fastest growing travel trends as
2 evidenced by the increase in recreational visits
3 to national parks from 220 million to
4 277 million in just 14 years, and that's an
5 increase of 25 percent.
6 Now, this increase in ecotourism represents
7 not just more people, but more money. Spending
8 on ecotourism activities rose almost 30 percent
9 in recent years. Due to increases like these,
10 ecotourism is estimated to soon be a $77 billion
11 market.
12 Now, this would represent 5 percent of
13 overall
14 word, ecotourism and all the money that is spent
15 on it is increasing, whereas traditional
16 tourism, on the other hand, which includes
17 cruises, is expected to experience no growth.
18
19 prime position to capitalize on these trends
20 because of its natural beauty and historical
21 significance. Such potential is evidenced in
22 other areas of
23 which has been ranked 11th in the world among
24 ecotourist destinations that give the most
25 enriching experience.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 But we can also look at Madeira Beach,
2 which now proudly boasts its John's Pass area, a
3 haven for ecotourists. John's Pass was a
4 long-standing fishing community that fell on
5 hard times and transformed itself into an
6 extremely successful working waterway. They
7 started with a 1,000-foot boardwalk that went to
8 public access to the water with restaurants and
9 shops. And it is now, according to the
10 Convention and Visitors Bureau, the most visited
11 destination in
12 of area that the Mayport Visioning Plan hopes to
13 emulate, and it is these examples of economic
14 success which ecotourism could bring to the
15 Mayport village, but you must first vote no on
16 this amendment.
17 Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, hold on a second. We
19 have a question for you.
20 Mr. Holt.
21 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
22 Thank you, sir, for coming down.
23 I saw you at the last council meeting and
24 wanted to make sure that you would be here
25 because it seems that you have some expertise in
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 this area. I wanted to get -- a couple of
2 questions for you.
3 One is, what do you feel like we -- I
4 guess, from a City standpoint or just from a
5 private investment standpoint could be done to
6 bring about ecotourism?
7 You know, we've been -- that plan has been
8 out there for eight years, and I don't see any
9 more investment than was out there eight years
10 ago in the way of charter fishing or kayaking or
11 anything like that. What do you think could be
12 done to improve that?
13 And, secondly, what is it that you feel
14 like the cruise terminal would do to harm the
15 prospect of ecotourism in the future?
16 MR. MILLER: Well, I'll address the first
17 question first. The first step would be to
18 reject the pending amendments. If the cruise
19 terminal is allowed to exist in Mayport,
20 ecotourism will fail.
21 MR. HOLT: Why?
22 MR. MILLER: Why? Because nobody -- no
23 ecotourist wants to go see the natural wonders
24 of a cruise ship. Tourism -- cruise ships
25 damage the environment in many ways. I could go
Diane M.
Tropia,
21
1 into those. They also would create a visual
2 blight for the Timucuan Preserve.
3 The second step would be to engage the
4 Mayport Civic Association and other community
5 organizations. They have the plan and they want
6 to talk to you, but they feel like they cannot.
7 To facilitate their plan, you need to
8 ensure that public access to the water is
9 ensured.
10 The third step would be to pressure the
11 municipal code officers to enforce the code.
12 Many of the areas in Mayport are -- have been
13 determined to be blighted, but these areas are
14 actually owned by three different companies and
15 they stand to gain from the blighted condition.
16 You also asked me how a cruise terminal
17 would hurt ecotourism. Ecotourists are
18 interested in three things: nature, culture,
19 and heritage. The ship itself and the effects
20 of the ship are incompatible with all these
21 interests.
22 A cruise ship that is taller than the
23 Statue of
24 related to the culture of the Timucuan Indians
25 and it's not related to the
Diane M.
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1 It also has absolutely no heritage, really.
2 Moreover, the effects of a cruise ship would
3 negatively affect ecotourism.
4 Speaking first to the effects on the
5 natural environment, which you asked me about,
6 right now the
7 river from the Timucuan Preserve. A cruise ship
8 will block out the view of the preserve 185 days
9 a year, or around there. Its bunker C fuel
10 emissions would degrade the air and water and
11 the ships present in the water would threaten
12 manatees, dolphins and other flora and fauna in
13 the area.
14 MR. HOLT: Let me stop you right there
15 because I think you're going into more of your
16 same speech you already said, and I wanted to
17 kind of focus in on the issue.
18 When we're talking about ecotourism, we're
19 essentially talking about, what, four or five
20 activities, fishing, kayaking, bird watching,
21 those kinds of things?
22 If somebody is coming here for charter
23 fishing, they're going to be going, I don't
24 know, five, ten miles out to do saltwater
25 fishing. If they're going kayaking in the
Diane M.
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1 Timucuan Preserve, they're going to be out on
2 the other side of the river back in there toward
3 Kingsley Plantation in that area.
4 And those things exist right now, and
5 nothing that you've said there really convinces
6 me that a cruise ship is going to chase people
7 off from that. If I'm out there kayaking up
8 through Sisters Creek or in the
9 inlet, I'm not going to be chased off by a
10 cruise ship. If I'm out fishing ten miles out,
11 I'm not even going to see it. So you haven't
12 convinced me that the cruise ship is going to
13 chase anybody off.
14 But my first question was, what can be done
15 to draw people in? And, I mean, for eight years
16 we've been -- had this plan of ecotourism and
17 the City has put many millions of dollars into
18 improvements in the area, but there's still been
19 no private investment.
20 Short of the City going out there and
21 starting a charter fishing company or a kayaking
22 program, I don't see what we can do. I mean,
23 the private entities kind of have to take over
24 and say, yeah, there's a good business plan here
25 to have charter fishing.
Diane M.
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24
1 And what is it that we can do more that we
2 haven't to spur ecotourism? Because I'm not
3 seeing it.
4 MR. MILLER: Well, I'll first take issue
5 with your statement that there's only certain
6 categories of ecotourism which you listed.
7 There's also historical tours, there's
8 sight-seeing, there's bike riding, there's
9 things like that.
10 The Mayport Visioning Plan envisions the
11 bike tour from north of the Timucuan Preserve,
12 through it, down to
13 possibly even all the way to
14 If there's a giant cruise ship terminal
15 there, plus a cruise, people are not going to
16 want to take that bike ride.
17 In addition, there's fishing that's
18 available right outside of
19 do not need to go ten miles inland or ten miles
20 out to sea. And I do think that anyone who
21 kayaks by the area would be scared off by 180 --
22 however tall that is cruise ship, 210 feet,
23 something like that.
24 What can you do differently? Like I said,
25 you can engage the Mayport Civic Association.
Diane M.
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25
1 Talks have broken off with them, and those
2 things need to be redone.
3 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you, sir.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
5 MR. MILLER: Thank you very much.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Lucy, followed by
7 Linda Moore.
8 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you for letting me
10 speak.
11 My name is Lucy Marhefka, 1539
12 Place,
13 I'm here to talk about the jobs that would
14 be lost if the Mayport cruise terminal project
15 is not approved. I also come before you as a
16 commercial fishing boat owner with my husband
17 Jerry. Thirty years ago, we docked the Bandit I
18
and II in
19 fuel, and bait from Matt Roland and subsequently
20 sold our catch.
21 I'm in favor of the building of the Mayport
22 cruise terminal. Why? Because I'm concerned
23 about the jobs that will be lost, including
24 mine. At a time when thousands of people in
25 this country are losing jobs, wouldn't it be
Diane M.
Tropia,
26
1 prudent to protect jobs where there is a
2 choice?
3 Cruise Services
4 services to Carnival's Fascination. Without a
5 cruise terminal, 70 of us with Cruise Services
6 will be out of work. That's not to mention
7 other agencies that provide services to the
8 JaxPort cruise terminal.
9 Most of us are retired folks, just like
10 some of the Mayport residents. We at Cruise
11 Services are not just a group of professional
12 people who work together. We are a team, we are
13 a family. To have the opportunity to work with
14 the public again gives retirement a whole new
15 meaning. I call it semi-retirement. For some
16 on the team, working at the port is a second or
17 third part-time job.
18 The beautifully-designed Mayport cruise
19 terminal is the perfect opportunity for Mayport
20 residents to show off their revitalized
21 village. Mayport will capture the attention of
22 many of the nearly 2,600 guests who have cruised
23 on Carnival's Fascination for 78 sailings per
24 year. Mayport will have the opportunity to
25 display its historical presence.
Diane M.
Tropia,
27
1 The
2 of interest to guests staying in the area before
3 and/or after their cruise. Restaurants and
4 shops could return and dot the waterfront so
5 guests can enjoy the ambience of Mayport.
6 That is not to mention overnight stays at
7 local hotels and motels. Mayport has done
8 little to show signs of progress while the
9 surrounding areas have prospered as a result of
10 keeping up with the times.
11 Long-standing Mayport businesses have
12 closed, leaving empty buildings to fall to
13 ruin. Commercial shipping is the shrimping --
14 pardon me -- is the main industry linked to
15 Mayport. Where are all the commercial snapper
16 boats that once fished out of Mayport?
17 Before blaming anyone else, look to those
18 government agencies that have put new rules and
19 regulations in place. They are responsible for
20 the demise of the fishing industry, not those in
21 favor of building a cruise terminal.
22 With the presence of the Mayport cruise
23 terminal, shrimp boats will still grace
24 Mayport. Old, broken-down docks will be
25 replaced with new docks where visitors and
Diane M.
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1 fishermen alike can access the boats at the
2 waterfront.
3 Your village is no different than any other
4 with historical values. Mayport is long overdue
5 for revitalization. The plans to spiffy up the
6 village have been gathering dust for years.
7 I hope you, the members of the City
8 Council, see building the Mayport cruise
9 terminal as an opportunity for Mayport's
10 heritage to be shown to the world.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am.
12 MS. MARHEFKA: Yes.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Your time is up, please.
14 MS. MARHEFKA: Okay. Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Linda Moore, followed by
16 Mayor John Meserve.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
19 I'm Linda Moore,
20
21 I have been the pier supervisor at the
22 current JaxPort location on
23 the past five years.
24 Tonight I have several of our staff that
25 has joined me -- you'll see them here -- and we
Diane M. Tropia,
29
1 serve as the Carnival Fascination at the cruise
2 terminal.
3 There are many reasons to expand and
4 locate -- relocate the cruise terminal. I'd
5 like to highlight three. One is growth, one is
6 employment, and one is the market share.
7 First on the growth, we continue to grow in
8 our cruise industry here, and we continue to
9 have customer satisfaction.
10 Each sailing, we handle about 2,200
11 guests. That's a minimum. It is our privilege
12 to show them the southern hospitality that we
13 have and to promote
14 surrounding area. Our goal is to exceed their
15 expectations and give them reasons to revisit
16 and tell others to come.
17 Just recently, on November 29th, at our
18 last cruise, a guest from upper
19 approached me and said they had booked three
20 cruises with Carnival Fascination and they were
21 bringing their friends. That's what we want to
22 hear.
23 I also want to tell you that our cruise
24 port has won top awards for customer
25 satisfaction nationally for two straight years.
Diane M.
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30
1 Happy customers equals positive returns to our
2 city, which promotes growth in our cruise
3 industry.
4
5 money, and energy from a number of sources to
6 the development of the cruise business. We do
7 not want to lose this business for
8
9 together and be proud of what we have to offer
10 the cruise industry.
11 Employment, jobs, of course, has been
12 addressed. The last one is the marketing. The
13 cruise industry has developed a new marketing
14 direction, which is the drive market, the guests
15 that could drive to a cruise terminal. And
16 during the past five years,
17 become known as having a cruise port. And
18
19 that fit that new trend for the cruise lines,
20 for the vacationer to actually drive.
21 They earn a value vacation. It gives them
22 an opportunity to stay in hotels, to visit our
23 attractions, to eat in our restaurants. I know
24 that Visit
25 done various pre- and post-cruise packages.
Diane M.
Tropia,
31
1 Years ago, they didn't have that to offer us.
2 So that too is a growth in the industry, the
3 traffic industry, the tourism industry for our
4 City, and it certainly has put the cruise
5 tourism designation on the map for
6 Jacksonville.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
8 MS. MOORE: Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mayor Meserve, followed by
10 Paul Parsons.
11 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, committee,
13 I would offer some documentation I'd like to
14 make a matter of the record and paraphrase from
15 it.
16 My name is John Meserve, 2126 Beach
17 Avenue.
18 I would start this -- start my comments by
19 stating I, in no way, represent anything of a
20 decision by the City of Atlantic Beach, rather
21 as a private citizen, but one who is relatively
22 knowledgeable. I started the Mayport Waterfront
23 Partnership, was its chairman for eight years,
24 and was engaged in trying to economically
25 redevelop the village for many more years.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
32
1 During that time, we enjoyed significant
2 success with infrastructure improvements. We
3 put in 5- or $6 million worth of systems,
4 including a sewer system, an alternative road
5 around the village, new streetlights and
6 sidewalks in the village, and an enhanced
7 vehicle waiting area for the ferry.
8 I absolutely strongly support the cruise
9 ship in Mayport Village, not just a -- it would
10 be the economic engine. And I will say that
11 there are probably -- I see two futures for
12 Mayport Village. One is cruise ship jobs,
13 economic stimulus for other growth out there.
14 The alternative is the ferry shuts down
15 because it loses a million dollars a year, and
16 that will go up in the future and there would be
17 no reason for the Port Authority to keep it
18 open. In my view, you shut it -- this City shut
19 it down because it was losing too much money.
20 The only way to keep it going and to keep the
21 shrimping industry is get economic development
22 in the village, and that means restaurants,
23 shrimp shacks out there that sell the product
24 locally and keep them going.
25 So the alternative is a village that sits
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
33
1 at the end of a three-mile stretch of road,
2 dead end, no economic redevelopment whatsoever.
3 The commercial -- if you don't know, the
4 commercial waterfront has a zoning overlay that
5 we put in place quite a few years ago that says
6 you can't build housing on the ground floor of
7 the commercial area, and that was our attempt to
8 make sure that we didn't let private people
9 simply build a bunch of private houses and
10 destroy the waterfront for anybody's use.
11 So I urge you at this -- that the village
12 has a wonderful history. It's not going to go
13 back to what it was 50 years ago, and we need to
14 put some economic stimulus so that the rest of
15 the empty properties out there will have an
16 economic incentive to redevelop and make it --
17 bring it to its full potential.
18 I drove ships in the Navy for 28 years, and
19 cruise ships do not destroy the environment and
20 they don't kill sea life. Certainly they can
21 have oil spills like anybody else, but we've got
22 17 ships that sit right out in that area in the
23 United States Navy at Mayport, they don't
24 destroy the environment, and a cruise ship is no
25 different.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
34
1 And so I urge you to keep this process
2 going, and I thank you very much.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mayor.
4 Commissioner Paul Parsons, followed by
5 Dan Turner, Jr.
6 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Commissioner Paul
8 Parsons, 1970 Mipaula Court, Atlantic Beach,
9 Florida.
10 I'm a commissioner in Atlantic Beach. I am
11 also past chairman -- after Mayor Meserve and
12 Mr. Tucker, past chairman of the Mayport
13 Waterfront Partnership.
14 I was chairman at the time that we invited
15 Mr. Holt out to come in and see our village and
16 enjoyed it and had a wonderful time at it.
17 There's some things that I thought about
18 for a long time about this and really didn't
19 know which way I was going to go with my support
20 one way or the other. And about nine months
21 ago, I made up my mind that I was going to
22 support the cruise ship terminal.
23 I'm like Mayor Meserve, that -- I feel that
24 if you don't do something out there, it's going
25 to turn into nothing. When you get rid of the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
35
1 ferry and everything else, it's going to turn
2 into a dead-end street and there won't be
3 anything out there but blight, and it's going to
4 be worse than it ever was.
5 I've been -- I was born and raised here,
6 been out there for all my life. Went out there
7 when I was a teenager. It is said that I had
8 family that lived out there in the 1850s, so
9 maybe I'm part Minorcan, I don't know, but I've
10 been out there for a long time.
11 As far as their land values go, I don't see
12 how this could actually hurt any land values
13 whatsoever. It's got to do nothing but help
14 it. They say they're losing their view from the
15 river. Well, for years and years and years,
16 you've had nothing but the seafood industry
17 there that blocked their view anyway. And
18 without doing something out there, we're going
19 to let it just go to nothing. And I have to
20 support it. I've talked to most of you
21 before -- some of you before about it, and I do
22 totally support it.
23 That's about all I've got to say about it.
24 I think it's a great deal. I think we need to
25 get it done.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
2 MR. PARSON: Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Dan Turner, Jr., followed by
4 Janice [sic] Thomas.
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Dan Turner,
7 Jr. I live at 2130 Mayport Road.
8 I differ with what Mayor Meserve says. I
9 mean, I haven't abandoned Mayport like some
10 people I know, but I'm not here to argue about
11 them or what their past mistakes were in not
12 developing the village.
13 But I do like to offer facts with documents
14 supporting, you know, the statements. You know,
15 one needs to keep in mind that three of the four
16 major cruise companies are convicted
17 environmental felons with those convictions
18 occurring since 1996 all the way up to 2008.
19 Carnival Cruise Lines have violated a Memorandum
20 of Understanding with the State of Florida three
21 times, been placed on probation for dumping
22 sewage in the water.
23 A floating city, a cruise ship discharges
24 approximately 1.3 million liters of waste per
25 day, more than the port city of Haines, Alaska,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
37
1 which produces over 1.1 liters per day. And,
2 you know, all these ships putting all this
3 garbage and sewage out in our oceans is going
4 to, you know, come back at us.
5 A single large ship visiting the port could
6 pump out as much as -- sulfur dioxide as 2,000
7 cars and trucks driving all year-round. That's
8 another report.
9 But, I mean, I could go on and on, show the
10 security. When a cruise ship comes in, the
11 Coast Guard has to go out there and circle
12 around the ship. Who's going to pay the taxes
13 on that? That's $25,000 per day. The taxpayers
14 get stuck with that bill. Who's going to pay
15 for the $60 million cruise ship terminal if they
16 put one in there or build one in there?
17 Taxpayers once again.
18 You know, the cruise ships don't put no
19 money out there. I've got the impacts here to
20 ripple effects. You know, they turn around --
21 once they get in, they turn around and they hire
22 their own touring companies so the money would
23 go back to the cruise ships, not to the
24 community. They pay no taxes to the City or
25 anything like this.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
38
1 But I'd be happy to give you-all these
2 reports to show you statistics after statistics,
3 what cost we are paying for these cruise ships
4 doing damage to our environment, the manatees,
5 the whales, the air we breathe.
6 Sixty thousand people die every year
7 because of ship emissions. They refuse to do
8 anything about burning bunker C fuel. Sure, we
9 might change fuel, but that still doesn't
10 resolve the fact that you've got them sandwiched
11 in the community itself.
12 I'm not going to abandon Mayport. I'm
13 going to fight till the end. If I have to go
14 all the way up to Washington, D.C., I'm going to
15 go all the way up there.
16 And now they're uncovering a lot of this
17 stuff that's going on. You know, I say the
18 Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, not to no
19 foreign flag cruise ship. Hotels might benefit
20 to some degree, but we don't benefit any.
21 Mayport won't get nothing out of the whole
22 deal. All that money goes back to the state, if
23 there's any, but somebody has got to foot the
24 bill somewhere.
25 Thank you very much.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
39
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on a second, sir. We
2 have a question for you.
3 Mr. Holt.
4 MR. HOLT: Sir, you were here the other
5 night at City Council and you had made reference
6 to the fact that there might be other
7 possibilities, other locations that would fit a
8 cruise terminal better.
9 Would you want to elaborate on some of the
10 other locations that you were talking about?
11 MR. TURNER: Well, there was one
12 location -- 2004, JaxPort did a study. They did
13 three studies on 100 acres of land. Sisters
14 Creek, they said, oh, that's a perfect site.
15 You could put in three cruise ships and
16 everything like this.
17 MR. HOLT: At Pine Island, you mean?
18 MR. TURNER: At Pine Island. And then all
19 of a sudden they back out of it.
20 MR. HOLT: Okay. Would the port --
21 MR. TURNER: In 2004, they met with --
22 Mayor Peyton did a tour of Mayport Village.
23 They had plans back in 2004 to put a cruise ship
24 in Mayport Village. Regardless of what grants
25 we apply for, regardless of what we're trying to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
40
1 do to improve our village, they turned a blind
2 eye to us.
3 MR. HOLT: Okay. So you would be more
4 supportive of it in Pine Island?
5 MR. TURNER: In Pine Island? Yeah, you can
6 put a cruise ship in Pine Island.
7 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you.
8 MR. TURNER: Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Janie Thomas, followed by
10 John Hannon -- Shannon.
11 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman,
13 Janie Thomas, 95289 Nassau River Road,
14 Fernandina Beach, executive director for the
15 Shrimp Producers Association.
16 I've been involved with the shrimping
17 industry for 35 years, and more so closely
18 related to all of the boats and the captains for
19 the last several years since I've retired from
20 the river myself.
21 We're not opposed to the cruise terminal.
22 We think it's a very good mix for our shrimping
23 industry and a way for us to survive. It's a
24 way for us to market our shrimp all over the
25 southeastern United States because I do believe
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 that the people travel over 500 miles. And I
2 don't mean just flying, I'm talking about
3 driving. They don't just spend one night here.
4 They spend several nights. And they're looking
5 for going to other places while they're going
6 here and they don't have to fight all the
7 traffic going to Canaveral and other areas.
8 We think that they will take these shrimp
9 back home with them, just like they did the
10 oranges years ago. And we'd like that to be on
11 the front page of everybody's agenda. Okay?
12 So we believe this project will revitalize
13 this Mayport area, the entire area. Hey, some
14 of it may even spill over to Fernandina -- we
15 hope so -- and create, ultimately, jobs. We
16 need them.
17 Thank you very much.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
19 John Shannon, followed by Dorothy Wardell.
20 Please make your way up front when I call
21 your name.
22 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: John Shannon, 2260
24 Cypress Landing Drive.
25 The lady that just spoke to you, I believe
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 she said she's from Fernandina. I believe
2 that's about 25, 30 nautical miles from
3 Mayport. I might be wrong. I believe it is.
4 First of all, I want to talk to you a
5 second, if I can, about the cruise ship docking
6 here, then I want to get into the noise, and if
7 anybody's done any appropriate traffic studies
8 on this.
9 Okay. We got a ship sitting in Mayport,
10 going to get on it, we're going to go to the
11 Bahamas. We're going to sit on some beautiful
12 beaches and we're going to snorkel and we're
13 going to scuba dive and we're going to sit there
14 with our little umbrella drinks and we're going
15 to spend our money and we're going to have us a
16 great time. Yeah. Sounds good, don't it? Book
17 me on.
18 Then I'm going to come back and I'm going
19 to get off that ship because, number one, I'm
20 wore out spending all my money and having such a
21 great time, all them beautiful beaches. And I'm
22 going to do what in Mayport? I'm going to look
23 across the street or, excuse me, the river and
24 see what? I'm going to go where? I'm going to
25 get on -- I'm going to -- it's the family.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Let's load up and go to the Jacksonville Zoo.
2 Yeah, right. Yeah. You believe that? I got
3 some land I want to sell you in the Everglades
4 back there.
5 Now, let's get more serious since we got
6 that out of the way because if it don't make
7 sense to you, I don't know what you're
8 thinking.
9 You got a ship at 7:00 a.m. to start
10 sounding off that will blow you out of your
11 chair at 300 feet easy. Immigration, deck one,
12 deck two, deck three, deck four. And then after
13 that, they get into telling you, okay, we're
14 going to start boarding. And this is how it
15 sounds to the people in Mayport. That's how it
16 sounds.
17 How would you like to wake up out of your
18 bed three days a week, four days a week to the
19 same thing?
20 We got a nuclear aircraft carrier coming.
21 It's going to get here. Our president-elect
22 isn't going to shoot it down. Everybody knows
23 that. It ain't going to happen.
24 The first black president of America is not
25 going to go against the Navy and say, no, you're
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 not going to do that. How would he like to go
2 down in history like that? I don't think so. I
3 wouldn't. I sure wouldn't.
4 You got a four gate and a five gate on A1A
5 going into Mayport Village. That aircraft
6 carrier along with them four frigates and them
7 two destroyers has got to be maintained, people
8 has got to get supplies in and out on this same
9 road that you want to tell me that you're going
10 to bring 2,000 people in a week, in the same
11 direction, and we're going to three lane it and
12 make one a turn lane? It won't fit. It can't
13 fit.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, your time is up.
15 MR. SHANNON: Thank you very much.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Dorothy Wardell.
17 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: She's not here?
19 Brian Paradise. It looks like Paradise.
20 I'm sorry. Maybe it's P-a-d-a.
21 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Brian is not here?
23 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: All right.
25 Barbara Goodman, followed by Danny
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 B-e-r-e-n-b-e-r [sic].
2 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. I'm Barbara Goodman,
4 representing the Timucuan Preserve/National Park
5 Service, 13165 Mt. Pleasant Road.
6 And while I greatly appreciate the speakers
7 that speak on behalf of protecting the preserve,
8 this time I respectfully disagree and would like
9 to put on record that the Timucuan Preserve does
10 not object to the changes in the comprehensive
11 plan and zoning in order to put a cruise
12 terminal at Mayport.
13 We look forward to working cooperatively
14 with the Port in addressing the challenges that
15 will come from traffic and viewshed impacts and
16 on keeping the ferry permanently in place.
17 We also look forward to working with the
18 Port on developing and expanding tourism
19 opportunities that will come as a result of a
20 cruise terminal in Mayport.
21 Currently, we have several bus loads of
22 cruise passengers who visit the preserve before
23 and after the cruises that are coming to
24 Jacksonville, and we expect that that would
25 expand once it moves to Mayport because of the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 proximity to both Fort Caroline and the Kingsley
2 Plantation.
3 We believe that this plan will bring the
4 needed economic stimulus to Mayport and
5 Jacksonville. And while it's a big change to
6 the area, will ultimately bring a positive
7 result.
8 Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Let me help you.
11 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Danny Berenberg. I'm the
14 managing partner of Gift Counsel. We are
15 located at 200 Executive Way in Ponte Vedra.
16 So I don't sound like I'm a foreigner here
17 to this conversation, my family settled
18 Pelotes Island just before statehood here in
19 Florida. That's ten generations back, so we've
20 had a lot of time here and we're a family that
21 enjoys going out to Mayport. We buy too much
22 seafood there and probably should stop that a
23 little bit.
24 But at any rate, my firm represents or has
25 represented a number of the attractions here in
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Jacksonville. We're a fund-raising
2 organization. We raise money for the zoo and
3 for the Times Union Center and for the
4 Equestrian Center, so we are involved in the
5 attractions to the community and what that does
6 for the broader Jacksonville community.
7 We've enjoyed those relationships and we've
8 enjoyed to see the tourism growing here. I'm
9 also a member of Visit Jacksonville, board of
10 directors. I'm honored to serve there, and I
11 figure -- I feel it's a real relevant matter to
12 the whole community, not just to Mayport, that
13 this cruise terminal be approved and brought
14 forward.
15 It's not just the Mayport community that's
16 involved here. It's all the attractions, it's
17 all the jobs, it's all the commerce. And as
18 I've come to the meetings, I think we lose track
19 of that Jacksonville is not made up of little
20 entities. It's one big community trying to help
21 each other.
22 I hope you'll give careful consideration to
23 this cruise terminal and to approve it. I think
24 it's needed, and I think it's the future.
25 Thank you very much.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
2 Donald Harris, followed by Dave Smith.
3 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
5 Donald Harris at I-95 North Airport Road,
6 represent MMI Hotel Group.
7 I really would like to support a cruise
8 line business in regards to hotels. I tell you,
9 we didn't have the cruise line -- we didn't have
10 the cruises this summer and it really impacted
11 our business on Airport Road. The majority of
12 the cruise line ships, probably anywhere from 6
13 to 7 percent. And we have one of the larger
14 hotels on Airport Road. We actually have four.
15 But it impacted the Holiday Inn there about
16 $300,000 a year.
17 And I think with everything that we got
18 happening with the economic times that we can't
19 afford to get -- to have $25 million worth of
20 economic impact to leave Jacksonville.
21 I really think that somehow we just got to
22 figure out a way for -- it's a cruise line,
23 Mayport, and everything that's happening at the
24 port, that we can work together. If there ever
25 was an opportunity for Jacksonville to get on
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 the map in kind of a middle-of-the-road market,
2 a cruise line, I think, is really our future.
3 Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
5 Hold on a second. We have a question for
6 you.
7 MR. JOOST: I'm sorry, sir.
8 I'm sorry. I didn't catch your name.
9 MR. HARRIS: Donald, Donald Harris.
10 MR. JOOST: Okay. Mr. Harris, did you say
11 your business was down 60 to 70 percent or
12 6 to 7?
13 MR. HARRIS: Six to 7 percent based on
14 occupancy points.
15 MR. JOOST: All right. Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on a second. We've got
17 one more.
18 Dr. Gaffney.
19 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 Mr. Harris, so from your expertise, how
21 does it impact the hotel industry as a whole if
22 you had to estimate?
23 I mean, is it seasonal or is it something
24 that really benefit you-all? Because -- excuse
25 me -- some of the individuals I know with the
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1 Omni Hotel.
2 Now, I was also told there's a
3 possibility -- we don't want to lose it downtown
4 and have another blighted building.
5 MR. HARRIS: Yes, sir.
6 DR. GAFFNEY: Is that a possibility?
7 MR. HARRIS: Well, one thing to kind of
8 answer the question -- I think it's two
9 questions. Yes, it is seasonally; and, yes, it
10 represents a huge part of our business during
11 the slowest part of the season. Typically --
12 and we call it, I want to say, our need period,
13 our value season. Our summer months ultimately
14 are slowest.
15 And I guess when we put together the cruise
16 line business here in Jacksonville and actually
17 got it in, it truly was a blessing for us
18 because that time of the year, we didn't have
19 any business. It's typically family reunions,
20 military reunions. It was just an added boost
21 for us. And it's just a segment of business
22 that we have kind of built into our projections,
23 but it is absolutely outstanding for us.
24 DR. GAFFNEY: Okay. Excellent.
25 Now, how many hotels do you represent,
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1 roughly?
2 MR. HARRIS: I represent roughly about five
3 hotels on Airport Road that we own and manage.
4 But for the most part -- I am the chairman
5 of the Airport Management Council as well as
6 past president of the Hotel/Motel Association,
7 so -- well, all the hotels in Jacksonville and
8 particularly all the hotels on Airport Road, so
9 we're probably talking about 2,000 rooms.
10 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you very much.
11 MR. HARRIS: Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
13 Hold on a second. One more question for
14 you.
15 MR. JOOST: Just a quick -- how many
16 employees is that?
17 MR. HARRIS: I have the same employees.
18 And if we just speak about my company alone, we
19 employ about 300 employees. And as far as
20 Airport Road, we probably represent about 500
21 employees.
22 And I've got to say, with the River City
23 Marketplace that was developed, one of the
24 things that we were hoping to have is to have
25 entertainment and having an opportunity for the
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1 cruise line travelers, the tourists to have an
2 opportunity to shop, to go to a movie, to go to
3 different restaurants.
4 So, in a sense, it really was a blessing
5 for us to have it. And I think all the more
6 reason -- when the folks was building the River
7 City Marketplace, they prospected, they put in
8 their projections that certain times of the year
9 they have a significant amount of cruise line
10 business, so now we do have something for them
11 to do. It really is a plus.
12 MR. JOOST: Just real, real quick because
13 you're in the hotel business.
14 My personal experience with cruises has
15 always been -- whenever I've taken one out of
16 Miami -- I think two times -- I've just flown
17 down the morning of, got a bus, and got on the
18 ship, and so -- which kind of coincides with
19 what some of the people here are saying.
20 But you're saying in your business, you're
21 really seeing people stay here overnight?
22 MR. HARRIS: Oh, yes, sir.
23 Yes, we probably have -- with all the
24 cruises that actually come to Jacksonville,
25 40 percent of them stay in the hotel. So if you
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1 have -- typically a ship that has 1,200 people,
2 you're going to have 8- or 900 rooms a night.
3 And we have a -- we had a specific cruise that
4 they sponsored 900 folks alone twice a year, and
5 they pretty much bought the ship, and they all
6 stayed at our hotel.
7 MR. JOOST: Well, thank you. That's useful
8 information.
9 MR. HARRIS: Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: David Smith, followed by
11 Alyce Decker.
12 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Dave Smith, and I'm
14 at 1053 Kings Road, Neptune Beach.
15 I've been attending City Council meetings
16 for eight years and speaking at most or all of
17 them, and I've never lied to the council and I
18 don't believe I've ever tried to exaggerate
19 things. And, at this point in time, I'm four
20 square in favor of the people of Mayport to
21 preserve their way of life and their
22 neighborhood.
23 You've heard people talk about improvements
24 the City has made. We're talking about
25 sidewalks, streetlights, and a sewer system,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 nothing more than any other average citizen has
2 been granted in the course of residence in this
3 area. If there are other -- other luxuries and
4 amenities beyond these which the City has given
5 Mayport, I'm not aware of them.
6 And, again, my information may not be
7 perfect, but I think City Council members suffer
8 that same problem sometimes too.
9 The idea that the ferry was going to shut
10 down at one point, I believe this is a matter of
11 theatrics. I never believed that the ferry
12 would shut down. A mere $200,000 a year to
13 operate this ferry which connects parts of
14 District 11 with each other and performs a
15 function in evacuation and national security,
16 that was never at risk, and I believe that you
17 know that and believe that too.
18 I've heard there's a lack of private
19 investment in Mayport. Well, the JPA is not a
20 private investor either, is it? How much money
21 has any cruise line devoted or promised to this
22 project? I'm not aware of any of that.
23 This is not about eminent domain exactly,
24 but it might as well be if you have a City that
25 will neglect sidewalks and lampposts leaning at
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1 an angle like this (indicating) because somebody
2 has knocked these cheap lampposts over and they
3 stay that way for weeks and months before the
4 City decides to do something. The media cries
5 blight. Sure. That's because the City has
6 neglected Mayport.
7 Finally, if the cruise line is not a
8 polluter, that opens up a world of
9 possibilities. Pine Island would be a great
10 choice, the Timucuan Preserve itself, or
11 Atlantic Beach on the ocean which has an
12 abundance of oceanfront land. So if it's not a
13 polluter, those are great choices besides
14 Mayport and evacuating an entire township.
15 Thanks for the chance to say these
16 comments.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
18 Ms. Decker, followed by Gary Crumley.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Alyce Decker.
21 I live at 109 Lost Beach Lane in Ponte Vedra.
22 I have been a member of the Mayport
23 Waterfront Partnership Board for nine years and
24 am currently a practicing urban planner with the
25 Mellgren Planning Group out of Fort Lauderdale
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1 in their St. Augustine office.
2 This requested land use change from the CGC
3 category to the water dependent/water related
4 zoning category is a decision with far-reaching
5 and unknown consequences. The decision of let's
6 move the cruise ship over there is not supported
7 by current due diligence from a city and a state
8 12 months into a national recession.
9 If the cruise ship industry should fail
10 after this change, any number of other kinds of
11 industrial uses would be allowed on this small
12 stretch of potentially public waterfront
13 property. The plan, again, in the visioning
14 statement for public access that the City
15 Council approved several years ago, as Mayor
16 Meserve referred, to would be lost.
17 There is no plan for consequences of the
18 effects of the recession on these parcels of
19 land should the cruise ship idea be abandoned
20 and other invasive uses be allowed.
21 This industry is counting on the declining
22 disposable income of a shrinking traveler base
23 for financial success, yet we are asked to trust
24 JaxPort's opinion that this will go well.
25 The word "trust," in all probability, it is
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1 anticipated, et cetera, vocabulary that is too
2 expensive for the City of Jacksonville in these
3 economic times.
4 Now, the dismissal of an admittedly
5 struggling shrimping industry would result in a
6 failed initiative for the City of Jacksonville,
7 and too much money has been spent by
8 Jacksonville to allow that public failure in the
9 citizens' eyes.
10 This land use change in this small
11 community and this particular project is the
12 wrong project in the wrong location at this
13 wrong economic time.
14 Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
16 Gary Crumley, followed by Terry Downey.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Gary R. Crumley,
19 landscape architect and vice chairman of the
20 Mayport Waterfront's Partnership. I've been a
21 practicing LA for 20 years and I've worked on
22 master planning and development of a variety of
23 different types.
24 Earlier today Mr. Graham asked me if I
25 would take a few minutes to put some thoughts
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 together on things that might help us, and
2 especially Ray Holt, on making the right
3 decisions.
4 Vision a better plan, one that might look
5 like John's Pass, just one of many villages we
6 could emulate. I pray you will make a smart
7 decision and save our village, not destroy it.
8 What kind of legacy do you want to leave
9 behind when you leave office?
10 Please do not vote on the JaxPort side, I
11 am begging you. You have the ability to help,
12 and now is the time to show what kind of persons
13 you really are.
14 Pertaining to the what-if scenario, I
15 cannot find a compromise that is fair to the
16 people. Homeland Security will destroy access
17 to the waterfront. The solution is quite
18 simple. Get JaxPort to work with the City and
19 do the following:
20 Number one, return the property to the City
21 and give it to the Parks Department for public
22 access. This is the best and highest use in
23 accordance with the comp plan.
24 If financial reimbursement is a
25 requirement, let JaxPort apply for a grant from
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1 the Stan Mansfield (phonetic) program and the
2 FCT. $7 million plus $6 million equals
3 $13 million, and I think that's a fair price for
4 their trouble, and then would allow them a
5 chance to look much better in the public eye.
6 Grant coordinator Renee Rossi at JaxPort can be
7 contacted to assist them.
8 Number 3, a group effort between the
9 Mayport Waterfront Partnership and the City
10 Council to reestablish the Community
11 Redevelopment Agency in the village has not only
12 been proven feasible but is long overdue.
13 Please make that a priority and allow the
14 TIF funding to put the money back in Mayport for
15 the community capital improvement projects that
16 could really make this a great community with
17 such projects as an amphitheater, a maritime and
18 history museum, and so forth.
19 Please encourage the JEDC and the Visit
20 Jacksonville council to get behind the water
21 taxi and scenic river cruise initiative. A lot
22 of ecotourism dollars are out there that will be
23 a benefit not only to the hotel lobby interests
24 as well as others. These dollars are spent
25 daily throughout the community, whereas the
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1 cruise ship cannot make that same commitment.
2 Make your commitment to attend your Mayport
3 Waterfront Partnership meetings. It's only once
4 a month and all your previous councilmen
5 attended. It's your obligation to fulfill that
6 need. It's a fair and equitable representation
7 that we seek. And, up to this point, we've been
8 lacking it.
9 Now, allowing the visioning process to be
10 completed by the City before any further action
11 is taken is tax dollars well spent for our
12 community.
13 Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
15 Hold on a second. We have a question for
16 you.
17 Mr. Holt.
18 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
19 Mr. Crumley, I wanted to ask you a couple
20 of questions about your opposition to this. I
21 wanted to try and get it concisely on which
22 issues, exactly why.
23 I've read what you wrote to our Chair, and
24 it seems from there that your focus is that the
25 moving forward with a cruise plan would
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1 eliminate the possibility of previous plans. Is
2 that your main opposition, or is your opposition
3 based more on the height of the ship that would
4 be there?
5 Can you concisely tell us what issues that
6 you're opposed to? Is it like I just said, the
7 cruise ship would kind of eliminate previous
8 plans for an amphitheater, history museums, and
9 so forth?
10 MR. CRUMLEY: The visioning process which
11 was created by the City of Jacksonville, yes,
12 would be set aside by this. That's a waste of
13 taxpayers' dollars. It's also flying in the
14 face of the Mayport zoning overlay district
15 ordinances which also provide for the
16 requirement of certain things to be done in that
17 area.
18 But my bigger concern is that we're looking
19 at trying to fit something that's so large in
20 scale into such a small community that it
21 doesn't take into effect the impact it's going
22 to have on the residences of the people living
23 there, and it doesn't look at the impact of the
24 visual statement that it makes for all the
25 people living on the Heckscher Drive side.
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1 MR. HOLT: Okay. So you're kind of
2 twofold:
3 Your concern is, one, that you think having
4 a cruise ship terminal there would eliminate the
5 possibilities that the Mayport visioning had
6 seen years ago, the amphitheater, maritime
7 history museum. That kind of thing. That's
8 one. And two is the massive ship being right
9 there on top of the Mayport Village. Am I
10 accurate?
11 MR. CRUMLEY: That would be an accurate
12 statement, but we also have to keep in mind that
13 there's an altruistic thing involved here. I
14 don't live in the village, but I serve the
15 village because I'm a neighbor and I'm a good
16 neighbor. I believe in standing up for the
17 rights of the people. And there's only 200
18 voters. They don't mean much in a million-plus
19 city.
20 MR. JOOST: Okay. I just wanted --
21 MR. CRUMLEY: But they're 200 people that
22 need your support.
23 MR. HOLT: I just wanted to stay confined
24 to the issues and understand fully what your
25 reason for opposing it is, and I think I
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63
1 understand that.
2 MR. CRUMLEY: We have a visioning process
3 that's in play right now with Chris Flagg and
4 other members of the City of Jacksonville that
5 the City is paying for. We need to give enough
6 time for that visioning session to be panned out
7 and the works that have been drawn and created
8 to be submitted to the City, and that has to be
9 done within the next 30 days.
10 MR. HOLT: Thank you. I understand.
11 Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Crumley.
13 MR. CRUMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Holt.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Terry Downey, followed by
15 Michelle Baldwin.
16 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Hello. My name is
18 Terry Downey. I live at 14309 Lackman Lane,
19 Jacksonville, Florida.
20 I don't live in Mayport. My mother-in-law
21 does. She's fifth generation Mayport. My
22 husband grew up there.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am, can I get you to pull
24 that mic down a little?
25 MS. DOWNEY: Okay. Is that better?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: You can tilt the entire
2 thing down.
3 MS. DOWNEY: I don't --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: There you go.
5 MS. DOWNEY: Okay.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: You can pick it up and move
7 it away from you.
8 MS. DOWNEY: Anyway, I object to the cruise
9 terminal in Mayport because it's not compatible
10 with the environment and the village. I have
11 been going in and out of Mayport for 25 years
12 now, and it's changed a lot. You know, the
13 shrimping industry has gone down, but they were
14 working to bring it back up, and you have to
15 give them the opportunity to do that.
16 They have worked very hard on their
17 visioning sessions. They have a dream that you
18 have to allow them to fulfill. Putting the
19 cruise terminal there is not going to allow that
20 to happen. You're talking about putting a
21 15-story boat, ship, whatever you want to call
22 it, all along their waterfront. It's going to
23 take up 210 feet for one boat, 210 feet for
24 another boat. Right now they only want two.
25 What's going to happen when they want four?
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1 There's not going to be any public access
2 to the river. They've fenced it in, they've
3 taken out all the buildings. The people that
4 have done that weren't the people that live
5 there, were the companies that bought the
6 property. They're looking to make it blighted
7 so they can get the other property and pave it
8 over.
9 There's an old lady that lives in Mayport
10 right now, there will be a garage next to her
11 house or right on top of it. Where's she going
12 to live? She's 86 years old. My mother-in-law
13 is 72. She's been living on the property she's
14 on all of her life.
15 You're going to have traffic coming in and
16 out of there that's going to exceed the road
17 capability. Now, maybe the new plans that you
18 have would allow for the expansion of the road,
19 and that's fine, but you've got other people
20 that live there that aren't going to be able to
21 get to their homes. Their homes. These are the
22 people that have lived there, their community.
23 They welcomed me and all of my family. You
24 can't destroy that for money.
25 I understand that these are tough economic
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 times and people need jobs, but you do not have
2 to destroy an entire community to do so. There
3 are other alternatives available, and they
4 should be researched. You should have an
5 environmental impact study done to make sure
6 that this is not the only alternative because
7 there are other alternatives that you can do.
8 You can't keep stepping on the citizens of this
9 city and this county simply to make money. It's
10 wrong. It's immoral.
11 These are the people that support you, that
12 put you in office and look to you to help to
13 protect their rights. If you step on them, what
14 are you doing? You're telling people that money
15 is more important than your citizenship and your
16 rights and that companies can come in and do
17 whatever they want to you, and that should not
18 be the case here.
19 Thank you very much.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
21 Michelle Baldwin, followed by Al Millar.
22 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
24 Michelle Baldwin, 46270 Ocean Street in
25 Mayport Village.
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1 I've heard a lot of points that have been
2 brought up, and one thing -- one question that
3 I've heard that I think I can help to answer is,
4 why does Mayport look the way it does right
5 now? We've had these revitalization plans that
6 have been put in place. $85,000 was spent on
7 studies. There was a master plan for the
8 revitalization of Mayport that was developed and
9 adopted in an ordinance in 2001. Why wasn't
10 that done?
11 The things and the money that was spent in
12 Mayport, the $9.7 million on revitalization was
13 spent under the ground in underground utilities
14 and sewers. That does not attract businesses.
15 It makes it convenient for more businesses to
16 come in, but it doesn't attract them.
17 There were 15 items in the master plan and
18 two of them were completed. The entire price
19 tag for that entire master plan was only
20 two-and-a-half million dollars.
21 Now, where the ball got dropped, I don't
22 know. I don't have that answer, but what I can
23 tell you is that the few items that were in that
24 master plan that I really, really sincerely hope
25 you will all take a look at are simple things,
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1 like a park that will overlook where the
2 lighthouse is to celebrate part of our history,
3 redevelopment of Helen Cooper Floyd Park to make
4 it more attractive and more accessible to all of
5 the people of Jacksonville to come to Mayport
6 Village. All kinds of small things like that.
7 Pavilions, park benches, things that wouldn't
8 have taken a whole lot of effort. And they
9 should have been done before the sewer system
10 came in. If they were, it would have attracted
11 more businesses and we wouldn't be in the
12 position we're in right now where we've had
13 conglomerates coming in, gobbling up the
14 property, knocking down the buildings.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
17 Al, followed by Pam Spencer.
18 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Learned Councilmen, my
20 name is Al Millar. My address is 4627 Ocean
21 Street, Mayport Village, Florida.
22 Geographically, I am 60 feet across the
23 street from this proposed cruise terminal.
24 Actually, Mr. Singleton is closer than I am.
25 Now, I'm not going to -- I've got a number
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1 of reasons why I think that it shouldn't be
2 there, but I'm not going to get into legalistic
3 things. I'm going to simply talk about what's
4 right and what's right.
5 I heard a lot about economics today.
6 Everyone said how many fill up the hotels and
7 how many dollars is going to get here and this
8 is what we need. I haven't heard a thing about
9 human life. You are City Council. You make
10 laws. You have the police power. You have a
11 right to protect the citizens. You talk about
12 the murder rate, what you're doing is you're
13 putting a proven killer in Mayport with no
14 restrictions. You could put restrictions on it,
15 but there are no restrictions.
16 What you are doing -- when you think of the
17 Iraq war, you think of how many dollars the war
18 cost, or do you think of how many citizens it
19 killed?
20 It's indisputable, and testimony from
21 California, 20 decades -- 20 years of it rather,
22 that bunker C kills. It kills children, it
23 kills adults, it kills people closest to the
24 source.
25 Right now in Jacksonville, we have an
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1 asthma epidemic. It also kills people who have
2 prior lung problems, such as I have COPD, and
3 yet no effort is made to do anything about it.
4 Carnival Cruise Line burns bunker C. Of
5 the five fuels, diesel fuels, bunker C is the
6 worst, and it creates 33- -- 28- to 33,000 parts
7 per million particulate, which is another
8 inconsistency.
9 Particulate, when it's combusted, it goes
10 up in the air and it hooks onto nitrogen
11 particles and sulfur sulfide. But everything
12 that goes up comes down. And it doesn't always
13 come down on the land, it comes down in your
14 river. You're saying we're trying to save the
15 river, yet you're dumping tons of nitrogen in
16 the river through a smoke stack.
17 And California adopted on July 24th of this
18 year very comprehensive studies. They said we
19 are satisfied that bunker C fumes, unrestricted
20 with catalytic converters, of which Carnival has
21 none, and other safety devices such as shore
22 power and other things like that, we are
23 convinced it kills people. We estimate it
24 kills -- and this is in the legislative record,
25 it kills ten persons a day. It creates
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1 something like six million lost job days,
2 six million lost school days, and all -- so
3 we're going to prohibit the use of it anywhere
4 within 24 miles of the coast of California.
5 You're going to allow such a thing to come
6 in -- and I don't know of anywhere in the United
7 States where it comes in a neighborhood 60 feet
8 away from them. Can you imagine? Two hundred
9 and eight feet tall, 60 feet. Well, I can't.
10 Thank you very much.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
12 Hold on a second, sir. We have a couple of
13 questions for you.
14 MR. MILLAR: Sure.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
16 MR. REDMAN: Mr. Millar, I know at the
17 council meeting the other night you said that
18 you were happy to have the Navy ships there at
19 Mayport.
20 MR. MILLAR: The Navy ships?
21 MR. REDMAN: They burn the same bunker fuel
22 that these cruise ships do.
23 MR. MILLAR: I understand that the Navy
24 ships are not allowed to use bunker C within
25 three miles of the coast of Florida. That's one
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1 thing I understand.
2 I also understand -- and it's highly
3 restrictive, but I understand that Navy ships
4 use shore power while in port. Most of your
5 cargo vessels are equipped -- they use -- they
6 don't use shore power, but they have an
7 independent auxiliary system that uses low
8 sulfur fuel when they're in port. They don't
9 use bunker C. Cruise ships have to burn a lot
10 more electricity. It's like lighting a hotel or
11 City Hall or the World's Fair or something.
12 You've got 3,000 rooms in that thing.
13 They have to burn so much electricity --
14 they've got either six to nine engines aboard
15 that ship. And when they come in port, they
16 turn them all off except one or two, and they
17 keep the generating system working.
18 MR. REDMAN: Mr. Millar, I spent three
19 years on a destroyer at Mayport, and they burn
20 fuel right in and out of the port.
21 MR. MILLAR: Yes, sir.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, I actually have a
23 question for you.
24 We are told -- and I guess I'll confirm
25 this when the Port comes up -- that when these
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1 ships come into port, they will not be burning
2 bunker C, that they'll actually be using diesel
3 when they come into port, so I think that
4 handles that first problem.
5 And you said there's several other
6 restrictions we should put on there. What other
7 restrictions are you looking for?
8 MR. MILLAR: Catalytic converters in the
9 smoke stacks, reduction units so they capture
10 the particles -- the particulates, so it doesn't
11 go in the river. I think that's one thing you
12 can do.
13 I think you could require advanced waste
14 water systems, which are used in some vessels --
15 the Princess cruise line, which they don't use
16 in any of the ships that sail in Florida.
17 And basically I think you'll -- make some
18 monitoring system. So instead of them checking
19 themselves -- every time someone has checked
20 themselves, it's a problem. You ought to have
21 some monitoring system. That's essential.
22 But I dispute the fact that -- in fact, I
23 talked to Mr. Brendan Corrigan, who is in charge
24 of cruise operations for Carnival, and he
25 advises when they come into port, they turn the
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1 engines off all except one or two. They don't
2 use independent systems. So I don't know where
3 your information is coming from, sir.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
5 MR. MILLAR: Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Pam Spencer, followed by
7 Dan King.
8 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. I'm Pam Spencer,
10 2084 Sallas Lane, Jacksonville, 32233.
11 I live off of Mayport Road, so I am close
12 to the village, and I do have a concern about
13 keeping this a working fishing village.
14 I think Jacksonville can become a tourist
15 destination, instead of a cruise ship, which
16 I've gone on cruises before. Anytime I've gone,
17 like Mr. Joost said, I've gone there and parked
18 my car, got on the cruise ship as soon as
19 possible because I know there's going to be a
20 lot of food so I didn't want to have a meal
21 beforehand. Afterwards, I got off and was ready
22 to go home and diet, not spend more money
23 visiting another site and so forth.
24 I don't think they're spending too many
25 night -- extra nights here in Jacksonville as
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1 far as the hotel industry goes, but let's look
2 at Jacksonville as a tourist destination, and
3 Mayport Village being the hook that we needed to
4 bring people in here.
5 We have the history. 1562, older than
6 St. Augustine, older than Jamestown. We can --
7 we can really utilize that, start marketing it,
8 get ourselves written up in different papers
9 across the country, get ourselves in travel
10 sections. And what could we do with that? We
11 could have a waterfront where people could walk,
12 sit on benches.
13 I drove past the other day coming off the
14 ferry. There was a pelican on each post along
15 the river, sea gulls, pelicans flying, container
16 ships going by. It's an interesting place if
17 you have a place to sit there. It's beautiful.
18 It's wonderful.
19 But then add the museums, add the
20 amphitheater, make it a place where people could
21 really learn about the history of Jacksonville,
22 which none of us know. Have it a place where
23 you can bike, have it a place where you can eat
24 Mayport shrimp, have it a place where you have
25 shops, have it something that's enjoyable.
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1 Have the water taxi that can take you all
2 over the other places in Jacksonville, the zoo,
3 Fort Caroline, kayaking on Dutton Island,
4 walking trails. Have the trolley from the
5 beaches go out to Mayport.
6 Have it where people from Jacksonville can
7 go to the beach for a weekend and not use their
8 car. They can take the trolley to Mayport, they
9 can take the water taxi to the zoo, they can
10 take their children to Fort George, to Kingsley
11 Plantation. They can learn more about the
12 history here. It's a place where people can go
13 for little money but yet spend a lot more money
14 in our city.
15 These hotel owners, would they rather have
16 people spend a week here or just one night
17 before they go on their cruise?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am, your time is up, but
19 I have a question for you.
20 MS. SPENCER: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Being the guy that chased
22 down money for the trolley in the past, it's a
23 very expensive product. How do you think -- how
24 do you propose running the trolley from the
25 beaches out to Mayport and who's going to pay
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1 for it?
2 MS. SPENCER: Well, I think, first of all,
3 you have to pursue the visioning plan, and you
4 have to have a draw for that. But I would think
5 if we had that attraction, eventually that
6 would, you know, fall in place. And I would
7 think the hotels that were benefiting from the
8 people staying and using that system to go out
9 there --
10 I don't know exactly how that money comes.
11 I have a feeling there's grant money that could
12 be utilized in some ways. I think the history
13 can bring money into that area. And I think we
14 need to utilize it, I think we need to keep it.
15 And you think of New England, when you go
16 to one of those fishing towns, would it be the
17 same if there was a 15-story cruise boat right
18 next to that village that you're going to see?
19 It's not compatible. It's not what will draw
20 people here.
21 And we haven't utilized international
22 tours. How many of these hotel owners are
23 getting international business? And
24 Jacksonville could be that draw. It really
25 could.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
2 MS. SPENCER: Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Dan King, followed by
4 Ted Corley.
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
7 I'm Dan King, 225 Coastline Drive.
8 I'm also a general manager of the Hyatt
9 Regency, Jacksonville Riverfront, and I'm here
10 to speak on behalf of my support of the cruise
11 ship terminal for Mayport.
12 You heard earlier the tremendous economic
13 impact that the cruise industry has had on
14 Jacksonville the four months alone this last
15 summer without the cruise lines. We saw
16 occupancy drop 6 to 7 percent on the Northside.
17 The cruise ship industry brings in guests.
18 Forty percent of the guests stay pre or post,
19 either before or after, spending money in
20 hotels, restaurants, transportation, retail.
21 That keeps people working. That adds jobs to
22 our community.
23 The impact of the Fascination that's out at
24 JaxPort, this year alone, in one year is going
25 to have 78 departures in a year, which
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1 represents $25 million of economic impact.
2 Florida is the cruise ship capital of the
3 year. Florida has had success in putting cruise
4 ships in all different areas of the state.
5 Surely, given the economic impact, there can be
6 a collaborative effort to keep the beauty of
7 Mayport as well as continue to provide jobs and
8 growth for this beautiful area of the country in
9 Florida.
10 Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
12 Ted Corley, followed by Paul Davis.
13 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
15 Ted Corley, 1547 Harbor Oaks Road,
16 Jacksonville, Florida.
17 I sent you an e-mail earlier today and I
18 certainly -- I think all of you know that I have
19 a great passion for Jacksonville. I believe
20 Jacksonville should be and will be, can be a
21 world-class city and a major vacation
22 destination.
23 One of the things that we keep hearing is
24 about all of this impact. According to the
25 airport, the JIA, there have been 39,800 fewer
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1 passengers fly into Jacksonville Airport this
2 year than the same time last year. Surely all
3 39,800 of those were not coming to get on the
4 boat, and so they didn't come because there was
5 no boat here. Tourism in Florida is down
6 significantly.
7 Across the state, hotel occupancy for the
8 first three quarters was down four-and-a-half
9 percent or 4.3 percent. Our occupancy rate in
10 Jacksonville is higher than the state, according
11 to Visit Florida. In Jacksonville, there is
12 about a 65 percent occupancy rate. Statewide is
13 only 62.6 percent. So we do better than the
14 average.
15 I believe that there can be a way to have a
16 cruise ship terminal and to have Mayport. I
17 don't believe that Mayport is the best place. I
18 believe that an investment in that community
19 will bring money to this community and to our
20 city and the cruise ships, but not in the face
21 of this small community. It will overwhelm, it
22 will destroy this community. We all recognize
23 that.
24 I looked online at Port Canaveral. Well,
25 yeah, they're -- they have a great place, but
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1 they're not sitting right in front of a village
2 of 200-plus people. They have great access and
3 great maneuverability there, but they do have
4 great tourist attractions, seafood centers,
5 shops all along there. And I believe we can
6 find a way to be compatible, but I do not
7 believe that Mayport is the place.
8 And I urge you, encourage you, don't allow
9 the JaxPort to take over this community because
10 it will overrun the community. They have no
11 defense but you and this city. And I'm asking
12 you to defend them to the best of your ability,
13 to protect their property rights, just as you
14 would anyone else's in this city. You've always
15 done a good job of that. I want to encourage
16 you to do a good job of that.
17 I also got this off the Web today. I
18 thought it was interesting since we've been
19 talking about -- "The Dirty Truth, Coming Clean
20 on Cruise Ships." This is online at Friends of
21 the Earth. I would encourage you to visit and
22 see how dirty cruise ships are. They are dirty
23 and do need to be cleaned up.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Pastor.
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1 Paul Davis, followed by Dorothea Cloer.
2 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Paul Davis. I
4 live at 2738 Elisa Drive East, here in
5 Jacksonville, a longtime resident.
6 Mr. Chairman, honorable councilmembers,
7 thank you for the privilege of speaking to your
8 group this evening. I come as a concerned
9 citizen, as a person who has chosen to raise my
10 family in Jacksonville.
11 My parents lived here. I joined the
12 military here, was a pilot in Vietnam. I have
13 chosen to come back here. I'm a small business
14 owner in Jacksonville, very concerned about the
15 future of our community, the economic future,
16 the place for families to come to and to live
17 and to grow the quality of life. I'm very
18 concerned about those things, as I'm sure
19 everybody else that has spoken this evening is.
20 I've come just to share my perspective from
21 a citizen standpoint. I do not live at
22 Mayport. I live on the south side of
23 Jacksonville.
24 I have watched opportunities come and go in
25 Jacksonville. I remember as a young boy my
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1 family coming and us going down to Mayport to go
2 down to eat. Some of the best seafood around
3 was at Mayport. And there were a lot of
4 choices, a lot of places to go. We'd have
5 relatives come to town and we were always --
6 that was one of the things we would do. I also
7 remember taking them to Marineland, which is no
8 longer there. Some of you can remember that.
9 There are clearly issues that need to be
10 addressed. And in your wisdom and with the
11 counsel that you have as far as zoning, building
12 permits, the environmental protection issues,
13 those kinds of things, I'm confident, can be
14 dealt with in a fair and equitable manner.
15 You know the old saying, everybody is for
16 progress, it's the change we resist. Well,
17 change is coming, folks. Do nothing and Mayport
18 will continue to change. It's unfortunate. I
19 love Mayport. I ride down there periodically
20 just to get away and to relax. It's a beautiful
21 place.
22 But you know what? Mayport is not a
23 destination. And some of the things that we've
24 heard tonight are great plans. They sound
25 wonderful. But I am of the opinion that it is
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1 private industry's position to grow and develop
2 things in our community. It's not always the
3 government's job. I think the government needs
4 to be there to support and do the basic
5 structure, but at the same time, it needs to
6 provide an environment for private industry to
7 do well, and I think --
8 We shot ourselves in the foot years ago
9 when we allowed the Saratoga to be hauled away
10 to the scrap yard versus having something down
11 on the river. I'd heard for 20 or 30 years now,
12 different administrations have talked about
13 making Jacksonville a tourist destination.
14 I remember as a young boy all of the
15 conventions in Jacksonville. And people used to
16 come here, Jacksonville was a destination. Now
17 we just enjoy the exhaust of tens of thousands
18 of cars that drive past Jacksonville going
19 someplace else.
20 And I think with wise heads and informed
21 information that people can put together a plan
22 that would allow Mayport to become a place to go
23 to, not just a cruise ship departure point. It
24 clearly will impact our community in a positive
25 way economically. It provides jobs. I think
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1 that is part of the responsibility the council
2 has. And I appreciate your attention to this.
3 I am very pro Jacksonville and I am very pro
4 Mayport.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, your time is up.
6 MR. DAVIS: And I think the two can work
7 and thrive together.
8 Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
10 Ms. Cloer --
11 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: -- followed by Mr. Patidar.
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Dorothea Cloer, 4226
14 Roxie Street in Mayport Village.
15 I'm going to apologize right from the
16 beginning. I'm not a public speaker, but I
17 would like to speak on this.
18 What I have to say is in two parts. First,
19 anybody that would drive over the bridge, Dames
20 Point Bridge, and look at what the old terminal
21 looks like and then turn around and drive into
22 Mayport can clearly see it does not belong.
23 I work for a limousine service. It's less
24 than two miles from the old terminal. I'm also
25 a dispatcher, and I take all their orders. I
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1 have never had more than one trip -- either bus,
2 limousine or sedan -- to the cruise terminal or
3 from the airport in a year's period.
4 I also work at the airport as a liaison
5 between the drivers of the buses, limousines,
6 and sedans. We never carry anyone from the
7 airport to the cruise terminal, never. I have a
8 roommate that has driven for Dana's Limousine
9 for seven years and I asked him last night, and
10 he has never taken anyone to the cruise
11 terminal.
12 Like Mr. Joost said, I've taken five
13 cruises. I have never done anything but cruise,
14 straight into town, straight after, straight
15 back to home.
16 I work at the airport, and I connect the
17 drivers to their passengers. I work out there
18 and I see the little lady that works for the
19 cruise, for Carnival out there, directing their
20 people straight from their flights to their
21 transportation. www.Carnival tells you right
22 here, the only offshore excursions Carnival
23 advertises for those in Jacksonville is a bus
24 trip to and from the airport, not to a hotel.
25 Also, Consumer Affairs gets more complaints
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1 about Carnival than any other cruise line
2 combined. Look it up on
3 www.ConsumerAffairs.com.
4 Thank you for letting me speak.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
6 Kirit Patidar, followed by Dave Kaufman.
7 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Kirit Patidar, 13846
9 Saxon Lake Drive, Jacksonville, Florida.
10 I was here last week on the other meeting
11 and again today. I think we should think of it
12 as a bigger picture than just Mayport itself. I
13 think we haven't really provided a gateway into
14 our city for tourism to develop. This is not a
15 tourism city to start. It doesn't -- it doesn't
16 matter what CVB says. People just don't come
17 here to go to the beach. We haven't really done
18 a good job with it. And this is our one
19 opportunity to get the people inside the town
20 and get them to stay the extra few nights, go on
21 those shipping -- fishing and deep sea fishing
22 tours.
23 Although I'm a hotel owner, a small hotel
24 owner on Mayport Road, I think jobs will be
25 brought by this. It's really hurting our
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1 industry. And to take this seed away that's
2 right at your threshold would make a big
3 difference either -- what direction this City is
4 going in. Is it going to be progress, or are we
5 going to do the same old thing again and again
6 and lose out again to other cities like we have
7 done in the past?
8 We had a Wal-Mart wanting to come on
9 Mayport Road a few years back, four or five
10 years back, turned it down. There's no
11 opportunity left on Mayport corridor for -- I've
12 got people wanting front desk jobs with a
13 bachelor's degree at 7.50 an hour. They don't
14 have a car. They have -- it's just a bad
15 problem.
16 At least this will be the seed to bring
17 some new jobs, a new generation, new people to
18 that area. So I would seriously take that into
19 consideration.
20 So thank you for your time. Appreciate it.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
22 Dave Kaufman.
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 Dave Kaufman, 2831 Talleyrand Avenue,
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1 Jacksonville Port Authority.
2 I'm the senior director of planning,
3 properties and environmental compliance for the
4 Port. I've been working on this project for
5 several years.
6 I would like to just remind the council
7 that the Port Authority and the City of
8 Jacksonville has now been in the cruise business
9 for approximately five years. It's been a very
10 successful business for us and the community.
11 And we have created a very interesting niche in
12 the industry for the cruise lines, and that is
13 really catering predominantly to a drive
14 market. And particularly in these economic
15 times that we're in, people are looking for ways
16 to economize. They're not willing to give up
17 their annual vacation, but they are trying to
18 economize that vacation. And being able to
19 drive to a terminal, eliminate the air piece of
20 that travel and take a cruise, which has proven
21 to be a very effective and efficient vacation
22 opportunity, really is something unique that
23 Jacksonville can offer.
24 I want to assure the council that the Port
25 Authority has done significant diligence on this
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1 issue. We have looked over the years,
2 recognizing very early on that if we're going to
3 remain viable in the industry, we had to get to
4 the other side of the Dames Point Bridge and the
5 power lines across Blount Island.
6 We have searched diligently up and down the
7 river from the mouth of Blount Island to look at
8 alternative sites. You've heard people discuss
9 a couple of those sites, Pine Island and
10 others. And I will tell you that at the end of
11 the day, given where Jacksonville's potential
12 market is, that we believe that the Mayport
13 terminal really represents not only perhaps our
14 only opportunity but, in fact, the best
15 opportunity, not just for the Port Authority but
16 for this community to really take advantage of
17 the cruise business.
18 At the Port, we look at the cruise industry
19 at various levels. We look at it as a good
20 revenue producer for the Port directly, which
21 are funds that then get plowed back into other
22 capital projects that we do, whether it be cargo
23 or other activities that support the Port, and
24 the creation of the thousands of jobs that we
25 do.
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1 We also look at the cruise as an
2 opportunity for this community, both in terms of
3 getting the recognition out nationally about
4 Jacksonville as a tourism destination -- and we
5 recognize that the best opportunity for this
6 community to capitalize on the spending
7 potential of these cruise passengers is to
8 locate the terminal in an area where we can best
9 capture that spending. And locating it in a
10 village where we can take advantage of all the
11 great ideas that the community has presented for
12 maritime museums and cultural museums and
13 activities and ecotourists, those are things
14 that we are firmly four square behind, firmly
15 support, think that those are the things that
16 this community ought to be offering to the
17 cruise lines who are looking for us to help them
18 sell Jacksonville, and I think there's
19 opportunities for us together to work to produce
20 those opportunities.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kaufman, we have a
22 question for you. Hold tight.
23 Mr. Holt.
24 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
25 Mr. Kaufman, we've heard a lot of folks
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1 here tonight talk about environmental issues and
2 pollution issues as a result of cruise ships.
3 Could you run through the issues one by one,
4 starting with air pollution?
5 We've heard people come up here tonight and
6 say that the fuel that they use has been proven
7 to kill children and cause health problems.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt, if I can get you
9 to wait until after I close the public hearing
10 and we can bring him back up here and answer
11 your list of questions.
12 MR. HOLT: Okay. All right. That would be
13 better.
14 Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
16 MR. KAUFMAN: Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't have any more cards
18 for this subject. Is anybody else here that
19 would like to speak to 2008-892 or -893?
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Cone on down, sir.
22 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Please fill out a card.
24 Sir, your name and address for the record.
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Mike Getchell,
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1 1185 Eagle Bend Court, Jacksonville, Florida.
2 I represent the Jacksonville Marine
3 Transportation Exchange, and I want to speak to
4 two points here.
5 One, there's been a lot of talk up here
6 about air pollution. I will not dispute
7 Mr. Millar's comments about Carnival Cruise
8 Lines. Perhaps burning bunker C -- it's 380
9 fuel. However, I will say that most prudent
10 ship operators, being the wise businessmen that
11 they are, will go ahead and have contingencies,
12 and those contingencies are the ability to burn
13 two types of fuel, whichever may be cheaper.
14 And most ship operating companies operating at
15 this time have that capability.
16 The second thing I want to address is the
17 suitability of Mayport and as -- and opposed to
18 the other areas in town around the river as far
19 as a suitable site is concerned.
20 Pine Island has been the only other site
21 that's been discussed. As far as the Harbor
22 Safety Committee is concerned here in town,
23 there's a lot of dredging that would have to
24 take place for that site to be suitable. And
25 plus, it sits at an intersection of probably the
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1 most dangerous intersection we have on the
2 river. You have the confluence of the Sisters
3 Creek, Intracoastal Waterway, and the St. Johns
4 River. There are large signs on the
5 Intracoastal Waterway warning boaters of keeping
6 their eyes out for large ships because large
7 ships can't see little boaters. That, plus
8 coupled with the tides and the currents in that
9 particular area are extremely dangerous.
10 The Army Corps of Engineers right now is
11 trying to come up with some remedy for that
12 situation. At present, they have not come up
13 with anything as of yet.
14 So, with that, I would caution anybody who
15 goes ahead and considers the Pine Island site,
16 that they'll have to take those things into
17 consideration.
18 Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
20 Sandra Tuttle.
21 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Sandra Tuttle, 1423
23 Roxie Street, Mayport Fishing Village.
24 I thank you all, the City Council men and
25 women, and respect you very much, and I hope
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1 that you'll listen carefully to what I have to
2 say.
3 I've heard a lot of people here tonight
4 speak. I respect them too and their right to
5 their opinions, but most of them are not
6 correct. Especially I would like to address the
7 fact to begin with that I do not believe that
8 this is a small scale land use amendment. I
9 believe it's much more.
10 Beyond that, I will say that we have worked
11 diligently. And as you know with anything you
12 do in the City, it takes a lot of time to get
13 the infrastructure, the design guidelines and
14 all the things in place to revitalize a town
15 like Mayport.
16 The Mayport people, the village, the
17 Mayport Village Civic Association, the oldest
18 one in Jacksonville, the Mayport Waterfront
19 Partnership, the Mayport Historical Preservation
20 Society, we all want change. We know we can
21 have change, we know that we have a history that
22 can bring to Jacksonville the greatest tourism
23 many -- in any place.
24 Take a look at John's Pass and Madeira
25 Beach, Pinellas County, a hundred little shops
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1 in that little, tiny village brings in more
2 money than anything in Pinellas County.
3 I want to address the fact that we were
4 filling out the grants. We qualify for the
5 Main Street grant program and many other grants
6 to do all the revitalization. The plans are
7 absolutely exquisite and beautiful, could be the
8 crown jewel of Jacksonville. There's no doubt
9 about this.
10 But for other people that have addressed
11 issues tonight, it's obviously, just obvious,
12 they have not been to the village. They don't
13 know the beauty and the things and the nice
14 homes and the people. The only blight there is
15 what has happened after Vestcor, the cruise and
16 JaxPort bought the land and destroyed, tore down
17 and devastated it.
18 We don't have blight. We clean our own
19 streets, we take care of our own cemeteries, we
20 have well-kept homes.
21 The other thing I want to address is the
22 Navy ships don't sit in the Timucuan Preserve.
23 And, yes, cruise ships do pollute. The facts
24 are there no matter what anyone says.
25 The manatees that are being killed are
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1 enormous. Four a month ago, 276 last year. A
2 bill will be addressed on Wednesday to this by
3 the State.
4 And another thing I'd like to say in due
5 respect to Ms. Thomas, who spoke, that said she
6 spoke for the fisherman. She might represent
7 maybe four to six fishermen. She does not
8 represent us. I am a fisherman. My husband and
9 I have a shrimp boat for 55 years. We've been
10 in the business, and I ask you to please do not
11 vote for this cruise ship industry in little
12 Mayport.
13 I think it's great to have a cruise ship --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am.
15 MS. TUTTLE: -- somewhere else.
16 But thank you, respectfully.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
18 MS. TUTTLE: And I pray for you all.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
20 MS. TUTTLE: God bless.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anybody else that's
22 here to speak on -892 or -893?
23 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, the public
25 hearing is closed.
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1 I have a question for Ms. Goodman.
2 (Ms. Goodman approaches the podium.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: I have to apologize. When
4 you were speaking, somebody was in my ear about
5 a different issue and I missed a lot of it, and
6 it was very short, so if you can give it to me
7 again.
8 MS. GOODMAN: Okay. Certainly.
9 Basically, what I had said is that we
10 are -- we don't object to having a cruise
11 terminal in Mayport, and we look forward to
12 working with the Port to address the challenges
13 that would come with a cruise terminal. We
14 recognize there are those.
15 But we believe that the economic stimulus
16 that will -- it will bring and the potential for
17 greater tourism are positives and we're in
18 support of that.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I heard a couple of people
20 speak of Pine Island. Would you guys support it
21 going to Pine Island?
22 MS. GOODMAN: We are on record opposing
23 Pine Island and actually worked very hard to
24 oppose it several years back when it was
25 suggested. It is -- both these areas are inside
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1 the Timucuan Preserve, but the Pine Island is a
2 land base inside the Preserve. And at Mayport,
3 it's just the St. Johns River, and its
4 association next to the Navy base makes it a
5 better location.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
7 Mr. Joost, was your question for
8 Ms. Goodman?
9 MR. JOOST: No.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Goodman.
11 MS. GOODMAN: Okay.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Stephen Joost first.
13 MR. JOOST: Thank you.
14 I saw Mr. Ferrin sitting in the audience,
15 and I'd like to bring you up to the hot seat so
16 I could ask you some questions.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: That will teach you for
18 showing up.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 MR. JOOST: And thank you for showing up
21 because this is a big and difficult decision for
22 myself and I know for many of my colleagues.
23 Your name and address for the record.
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right. My name is
25 Rick Ferrin. I'm the executive director of the
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1 Jacksonville Port Authority, which is located at
2 2831 Talleyrand Avenue in Jacksonville, Florida.
3 MR. JOOST: Mr. Ferrin, could you address,
4 number one, the -- whether the ships are going
5 to be burning diesel or using onshore power
6 hookups when they're docked, when they're docked
7 at Mayport.
8 MR. FERRIN: Through the Chair to
9 Councilman Joost, the vessels will be burning
10 fuel. They will not be hooked up to shore
11 power. The capability of being hooked up to
12 shore power will be -- we have planned to
13 integrate that into the design of the terminal
14 itself, but the vessels will be burning --
15 that's one -- it's one engine driving a
16 generator, and it does burn bunker C.
17 The vessel does, at a significant cost,
18 have the capability of changing to diesel fuel,
19 which is much lower in sulfur emissions.
20 MR. JOOST: Okay. When you refer to
21 bunker C -- because I noticed through my
22 research there was a move in the Port of Seattle
23 where the cruise ships were now burning a
24 1.5 percent sulfur versus the 2.7.
25 Are there any -- are there any plans, at
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1 least in our current plan, to mitigate the kind
2 of fuel that they're burning such as the Port of
3 Seattle has done?
4 MR. FERRIN: Councilmember Joost, we have
5 not mandated that. We actually now just simply
6 mandate that all of our tenants and customers
7 and the steamship lines that call in
8 Jacksonville abide by the emission standards as
9 prescribed by the State. And those are
10 standards, I believe, that are prescribed by the
11 state of Washington, which, in turn, are
12 different than the state of California.
13 Should the state of Florida modify its
14 standards, I can assure you that the Port of
15 Jacksonville will mandate that those standards
16 are met and complied with.
17 MR. JOOST: Okay. But -- so for now, they
18 can burn the higher sulfur compound?
19 MR. FERRIN: That's correct.
20 MR. JOOST: Okay. Waterfront use for the
21 private citizens, what have you done to mitigate
22 that?
23 MR. FERRIN: Well, one of the things that I
24 think Mr. Kaufman has probably pointed out is
25 that we're talking about a terminal that will
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1 handle not two or three or four vessels at any
2 one time. This is a terminal that will handle
3 one vessel at a time.
4 We are talking about a berth that's about a
5 thousand feet in length, and that's somewhat --
6 a little bit longer than the average -- than the
7 size of the largest vessels which are just small
8 enough to get through the Panama Canal. So
9 we're talking about a 900, 960-foot vessel. So
10 that --
11 The plan that we have is for a terminal
12 that will handle one vessel at a time, just one
13 vessel at a time. That means that if we have
14 one ship, that vessel calls three times roughly
15 every two weeks. If we have two vessels, you
16 just simply double that. If you have three
17 vessels, well, it's not quite a double because
18 if we had three vessels, we'd have it probably
19 going out on week-long cruises or maybe a
20 five-night cruise and a nine-night cruise every
21 two weeks to give you some variation.
22 So what that means is you've probably got
23 half of the month that you don't have a vessel
24 at the dock, that we're not operating the cruise
25 terminal. And during those periods, we would do
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1 our absolute utmost to make the facility
2 available to the local community for their use
3 and the waterfront accessible to the local
4 community as well.
5 MR. JOOST: Okay. So during half the
6 month, I can walk down the promenade --
7 MR. FERRIN: That is the plan.
8 MR. JOOST: -- if you will?
9 MR. FERRIN: Yes, sir.
10 MR. JOOST: Okay. Shrimpers and dockings
11 and available slips, what have you done to
12 mitigate that?
13 MR. FERRIN: There are the -- I would
14 probably ask Tony Orsini to come up and give you
15 the actual numbers and exactly where the boats
16 have gone and what's happened to the boats that
17 were derelict, that were not under power, that
18 were not working boats versus the boats that are
19 working.
20 And I think Tony can also explain what we
21 have in the future, the possibility of the
22 basin, use of the basin as a fishermen's wharf
23 area, and also the construction of some sort of
24 a berthing dock that might be just to the side
25 of the basin that we purchased.
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1 So, if I could, Councilmember Joost, I'd
2 ask Tony Orsini to come up and address that.
3 MR. JOOST: Okay. Tony.
4 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening,
6 Mr. Chairman, Councilmen.
7 My name is Tony Orsini. I'm the senior
8 director of the Jacksonville Port Authority,
9 2831 Talleyrand Avenue. And I am director of
10 cruise operations. I run the cruise board.
11 And to -- let's see. You want to talk
12 about the shrimp boats first. Let me talk
13 specifics about the shrimp boats.
14 When the Jacksonville Port Authority took
15 over the property owned by the Rolands, we went
16 out and did a survey of all the boats that were
17 tied up to that property, and we --
18 If you'll allow, I'm going to read off the
19 names of those boats. They were the Nancy Lee,
20 the Family Tradition, the Miss Yvonne, the
21 Miss Rosa, the Lindsey Nicole, the Captain
22 Flossy --
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, slow down a little
24 bit. Our court reporter is trying to keep up
25 with you.
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1 MR. ORSINI: I'm sorry. I'll give her a
2 copy of this.
3 The Captain Flossy, the Miss Lillia, the
4 Miss Aileen, the Lady Amelia, the Queen Bee, the
5 Brat, the Blue Runner, the Melinda Gail, the
6 Miss Marie, the Jessica Lynn, the Ragin Cajun,
7 and I'll try to pronounce this last one --
8 Nguyen, N-g-y-y-e-n.
9 Those were the boats that were at our
10 facility when we took ownership of the
11 property. There were five boats that were
12 identified during our purchase negotiations that
13 were active shrimpers that brought fish back in
14 and shrimp back in regularly to be processed and
15 sold. Those were the first five boats that I
16 read.
17 We agreed at that time that we would make
18 sure to provide those working boats with a berth
19 someplace so they could continue their
20 operation, and we have done so.
21 The Lindsey Nicole has elected not to use
22 our facility. They relocated to Gerald Pack's
23 property at Safe Harbor. But we provided dock
24 space at our Hornblower Marine facility for the
25 other four boats, and they are docked there
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1 currently and will stay there.
2 Of the other boats, there were six of the
3 smaller boats that elected to -- and, of course,
4 we asked them to leave, but they moved over to
5 Singleton's. Singleton's prepared some dockage
6 there, and they all moved over there and that's
7 where they've been for several months and seem
8 to be doing fine.
9 One of the boats that I really didn't count
10 as an active boat was the Captain Flossy. It
11 had not moved from the dock for more than a
12 year. I don't know how many years that it had
13 been sitting there, but it was not a fisherman.
14 It just sat there. And Miss Lillia, the
15 Miss Lillia had no engine in the boat and had
16 not moved for more than a year also.
17 So, in fact, we displaced a total of three
18 boats. And those three boats, I really don't
19 know where they went. They moved to other
20 facilities.
21 So in our promise to build on the new
22 facility, we have elected, first of all, to the
23 four boats that are tied up at Hornblower Marine
24 that, of course -- that facility would be
25 developed in the new terminal. We would rebuild
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1 the docks that are at the westernmost end of
2 where the Safe Harbor Marine is.
3 We own the basin that is right next to the
4 Coast Guard station, and there is 150 feet of --
5 150, 160 feet of dockage there that has fallen
6 into the river. There's nothing left but
7 pilings standing up, but we own that property
8 now, and so we would rebuild that facility to
9 dock those four boats and provide those boats
10 with continued dockage.
11 The basin that is alongside the Coast Guard
12 station offers a completely different and maybe
13 a new facility for the boaters. We're looking
14 at that in the future to develop that area and
15 to some type of a marina that would make room
16 for the commercial industry as well as the
17 recreational industry, but we have not settled
18 in on plans for that as yet.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost.
20 MR. JOOST: Okay. Because I -- last week
21 I actually went out there and talked with one of
22 the shrimpers as he's pulling up, and his main
23 concern was the docking capacity out there
24 because what they've done is they've doubled up
25 at Singleton's. And so when the waves and wakes
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1 from the other boats come in, they're banging up
2 against each other and causing damage to each
3 other's ships.
4 And he had said -- and I'm just repeating
5 what I was told -- he used to park down where
6 the Port Authority land was. And I don't know
7 if he's one of the four that you were talking
8 about, but he used to park at the other spot.
9 Now it's $300 a month, and his main concern
10 was docking capacity, and he told me --
11 MR. ORSINI: Well, I can tell you that --
12 MR. JOOST: And so in your plans, it's only
13 for the four shrimp boats?
14 MR. ORSINI: Yes. The immediate plans are
15 to continue the commitment that we made to those
16 four boats. Those are the immediate plans.
17 MR. JOOST: It seems like the need is --
18 just from my observation, is a little higher
19 than the four boats, judging by the number of
20 boats I saw tied up to each other --
21 MR. ORSINI: Well --
22 MR. JOOST: -- just because they said they
23 didn't have anywhere else to dock.
24 MR. ORSINI: Well, you know, the practice
25 of breasting boats on any dock is a common
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1 practice. That's been around for ages. And as
2 a matter of fact, when we took over the
3 property, most of the boats out there had --
4 were breasted up one, two boats on top of each
5 other with fenders in between.
6 MR. JOOST: Would they be able to --
7 MR. ORSINI: That's very common.
8 MR. JOOST: Let me ask you this: Would
9 they be able to double breast at your facility
10 since the four -- we could be talking about, you
11 know, eight or nine, ten boats.
12 MR. ORSINI: No. I think the practicality
13 of the boats of this size -- these are the
14 65-foot boats. These are the larger shrimp
15 boats, and the facility that we would provide
16 for them to -- for those boats would be four
17 boats because currently they're at our
18 Hornblower facility, and they are breasted at
19 the Hornblower facility right now.
20 MR. JOOST: Well, me, personally, I would
21 like to see some more shrimp boat capacity for
22 these guys. That was the main concern.
23 Mr. Ferrin, I'm just curious. How many
24 lease agreements and/or commitments are in place
25 right now for the new facility?
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1 MR. FERRIN: How many lease agreements are
2 in place for the new facility?
3 MR. JOOST: Or just say, you know,
4 commitment letters, memos of understanding,
5 whatever you have, if you will, for the new
6 terminal.
7 MR. FERRIN: We do not have any contracts
8 right now for the new terminal. What we do have
9 is we have various -- we have -- we have
10 letters, I believe. Again, I have to check with
11 David Kaufman to see whether it's a memorandum
12 or a letter.
13 But we do have tremendous interest that has
14 been shown by the cruise industry, by Royal
15 Caribbean, Norwegian Cruise Lines, and Carnival
16 in the development of a new cruise terminal that
17 does not have the air draft limitation, and also
18 puts them within a community.
19 So really what we have now is nothing
20 that's going to be binding in court. We have
21 nothing that says we have guaranteed income.
22 MR. JOOST: Right.
23 Okay. Here's -- just being a numbers guy,
24 here's my biggest hurdle, is -- is we're going
25 to build a long-term asset basically because we
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1 can't get a long-term commitment from the -- you
2 know, from Carnival, from the cruise liners.
3 What we're -- what we're doing is we're taking
4 short-term revenue to pay for a long-term
5 asset.
6 I know this doesn't directly address the
7 zoning, per se, but I do feel as an at-large
8 councilman and because we are a consolidated
9 city, governmental entity, I do feel that it is
10 a valid question. And help me get over that
11 hurdle because in this environment that seems --
12 that seems to be a -- you're asking me to take a
13 higher risk than what normally I would be
14 comfortable taking financially.
15 MR. FERRIN: Councilmember Joost, you're
16 right. In the Carnival business, the sorts of
17 commitments that we have are generally if
18 they -- if we are going to be building a
19 terminal as we did for TraPac, as we will for
20 Hanjin, we're looking at 30-year commitments,
21 possibly 30-year commitments with 10-year
22 options at the end of that, so we have long-term
23 commitments. That's much more than the norm in
24 the cargo industry.
25 In the past, when we have not had to make
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1 major investments or we had capital funds
2 available or these were long -- these were
3 facilities that we had had at the Port Authority
4 in our inventory for many years, we did not look
5 for these extremely long-term commitments.
6 But when we're out there building -- you're
7 absolutely correct. When we're out there
8 building a new facility, it is our -- it is our
9 policy to go out and get a long-term commitment
10 so that we have a guaranteed flow of income to
11 service the debt so we can maintain a debt
12 service coverage ratio that in turn maintains
13 our bond rating.
14 The cruise industry, I will tell you, is
15 truly an anomaly in that the cruise lines do not
16 and have never given long-term commitments on
17 the order of the major steamship lines carrying
18 cargo, whether it's a Hanjin or it's a Maersk
19 line or any one of the major steamship lines.
20 What we have seen is we've seen history.
21 David Kaufman, I can tell you, is very adept at
22 talking about the history of the cruise lines,
23 and I think he may have addressed this with you,
24 but you have a situation where, if you have a
25 cruise line -- and what we have seen in other
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1 ports like Galveston, what we've seen in other
2 ports like Tampa, when they come in and they
3 begin and they start an operation, they have
4 very thoroughly vetted or researched the market.
5 I think what we've done here in the past
6 five years is truly extraordinary. We have
7 shown that we do have a niche in this market.
8 That niche, as a lot of people this evening have
9 discussed, is a drive-to market. We are an
10 ideal drive-to market. We sit at a confluence
11 of interstate highways. You can reach a third
12 of the country by truck. And I know you've
13 heard this before, I apologize, but it works for
14 cargo, it works for passengers as well.
15 So I think we're ideally located. And
16 unless the cruise industry just completely
17 collapses for some reason, I think we're going
18 to be a viable home port.
19 I think that if we have the -- I mean, if
20 you take a look at what we've done in the last
21 five years, starting off with the -- with the --
22 excuse me -- with the Celebration, which was a
23 smaller vessel, which, I believe, was a
24 Holiday-class vessel, and she carried -- she
25 only carried about 1,650 passengers, and they
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1 replaced her and they brought in a Fantasy-class
2 vessel that carries well over 2,000 passengers.
3 If you look at the bookings that we've had
4 out of Jacksonville, where we are booking at 110
5 to 112 percent every single cruise, which means
6 more than double occupancy, you can see that we
7 have a good history, and that indicates that
8 they are committed to us.
9 What we hear from them --
10 MR. JOOST: Is that trend still holding
11 true through October?
12 MR. FERRIN: I would have to --
13 MR. ORSINI: Yes, it is.
14 MR. FERRIN: That's what I thought. I just
15 wanted to make sure.
16 MR. JOOST: I actually had done some
17 research, and it says, "Unlike the lodging
18 industry, the cruise companies are solely
19 dependent upon leisure travelers for their
20 business," so that kind of threw up a red flag
21 for me.
22 But it said, "The cruise lines had been
23 fortunate for much of the year in that top-line
24 demand remained relatively strong, even as the
25 economy has deteriorated. Booking trends had
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1 remained favorable and occupancy rates continue
2 to be solid."
3 And then it went on further to say,
4 "Although they anticipate some weakness in the
5 booking trends, much of the negative impact will
6 be offset by the dramatic decline in fuel prices
7 realized in recent months. As one might
8 imagine, for ships of such an enormous size, the
9 price of fuel is by far the most significant
10 operating expense in the cruise line industry.
11 "As fuel prices rose over the last year,
12 the operating margins of the cruise lines were
13 under pressure. But the fact that crude oil has
14 fallen by nearly two-thirds from its peak this
15 summer, this has significantly reduced the
16 company's operating expenses going forward, and
17 we believe that this reality is currently
18 reflected in the share price."
19 And they actually recommended a buy on this
20 particular cruise line industry, so . . .
21 And they further went on to say that, "We
22 continue to believe that many consumers would
23 prefer to cut back on day-to-day expenditures as
24 opposed to foregoing an annual vacation" and
25 that the perceived value offered by the cruise
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1 lines remains high relative to other potential
2 vacation trips.
3 Would you like to comment on that?
4 MR. FERRIN: Well, Councilmember Joost,
5 that's -- that's our position. I would agree
6 with that, that assessment.
7 What we have seen is -- if we have been in
8 a recession for the last year, we have not seen
9 a measurable or a tangible decrease in the
10 number of passengers wanting to go on cruises
11 out of Jacksonville.
12 We really -- we are a low-cost vacation
13 because that aviation element of the cruise
14 vacation is eliminated here, which eliminates
15 considerable cost and complication.
16 So I think that if we have families that
17 are looking for a low-cost vacation on the
18 four- or five-day scale, Jacksonville and the
19 cruises out of Jacksonville provide exactly that
20 opportunity.
21 I think also as you look at -- and back to
22 the previous question which ties in, is you look
23 at the history of the cruise lines here -- or
24 the cruise line, singular, here in Jacksonville,
25 it's been very positive.
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1 If you look at the history of the cruise
2 lines in other ports that have had a similar
3 sort of experience as that which they have
4 enjoyed here in Jacksonville over the last five
5 years, you've seen continued deployment and
6 deployment of larger and more vessels.
7 So while I don't think we're going to ever
8 get to a point where I've got a 20-year contract
9 with Carnival, nor do I think we're going to get
10 Carnival to come to the table and say we would
11 like to invest in the cruise terminal ourselves,
12 I think what we will be able to find is we will
13 be able to find a degree of certainty that will
14 allow us to either raise the money in the bond
15 market or find a private sector financier as a
16 three-P to join with us in a partnership, a
17 public/private partnership, for the development
18 of the cruise terminal.
19 MR. JOOST: Okay. And then one last
20 question as to procedure.
21 Personally, for me as a council member, I
22 would have liked your board to have taken a
23 position first and vetted a lot of this out,
24 especially on the financial side because, I
25 mean, really, within this body, we're
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1 determining more of the zoning issue, if you
2 will.
3 Can you explain to me why are we voting
4 tonight before your board has voted?
5 MR. FERRIN: Right. I understand that your
6 concern is that --
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
8 MR. FERRIN: -- Mr. Chairman, is that we
9 have maybe an egg in front of a chicken or a
10 chicken in front of an egg or a cart and a horse
11 in the wrong place, but I would respectfully
12 submit that what we are doing here is we are
13 trying to line up all of the things that we
14 need. We needed to purchase the property. We
15 needed to make sure that the zoning was in place
16 and that we could actually build the facility.
17 The whole idea here -- and with the
18 greatest respect for this body -- was that we
19 wanted to come and make sure that we could do
20 what we want to do, and that's build a cruise
21 terminal in Mayport. And I wanted to be able to
22 present that to the board of directors at the
23 Port Authority, along with a very comprehensive
24 look at the finances, of the economic history,
25 of the economic projections, how would we go
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1 about building it, how would we go about
2 financing it, and all of those decisions.
3 So at a workshop, I believe, on about the
4 26th of January, then the board members would
5 actually be able to make a decision of yes or
6 no, go for it, and not a condition decision that
7 would be conditioned upon going back to City
8 Council.
9 So I do beg your pardon for making -- maybe
10 coming to this body in advance. I know it seems
11 like maybe we should have gone to the board
12 first and then come to you afterwards, but I
13 think to be able to carry this thing forward in
14 a linear fashion so that we can get to a very
15 definite and well-defined decision point, we
16 needed to come to you first.
17 MR. JOOST: Okay. Well, Mr. Ferrin, thank
18 you for coming down tonight.
19 I have no further questions.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I was going to answer that
21 question for you because I figure by the time
22 we're done with you, the price you thought it
23 was going to be is probably not quite what it's
24 going to be.
25 MR. FERRIN: Actually a good point, yeah.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Anyway, we're actually going
2 to take a break here for about ten minutes
3 because our court reporter, her poor little
4 fingers need to rest. We normally go for about
5 two hours at a time.
6 So we're going to take about a five-minute
7 break, and so we'll just recess for five minutes
8 and we'll be back.
9 Thanks.
10 (Brief recess.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let's get back
12 to business.
13 We need to get in the proper order. We
14 have closed the public hearing on -892 and
15 -893. We need for somebody to move the bill
16 for -892.
17 MR. HOLT: Move the bill.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: And I need for somebody to
19 second it.
20 MR. JOOST: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We have moved and seconded
22 -892. Now, discussion.
23 Mr. Holt.
24 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
25 I have about six or seven issues that I
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1 want to go through one by one, and some of my
2 questions will be to the Planning Department and
3 some to the folks from the Port.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, just before you get
5 into that, remember we're on the land use now.
6 I don't know if -- what of your stuff has to do
7 with the PUD and what of it has to do with the
8 land use.
9 MR. HOLT: Okay.
10 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine.
12 MR. HOLT: It's pretty much all land use
13 related. I'm not going to get into the nuts and
14 bolts of the PUD.
15 Mr. Crofts or Mr. Kelly or whoever thinks
16 that they can answer this question best, when I
17 was looking into this issue, one of the things
18 that first struck me was that the CGC land use
19 does have an allowed use for a passenger
20 terminal, and so does the Mayport overlay. And
21 there is another passenger ship a couple of
22 parcels down that does day cruises. Can you
23 tell me why we're even here discussing this
24 considering those facts?
25 MR. CROFTS: Yes, sir.
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1 Through the Chair to Mr. Holt, the --
2 probably the -- a couple of the overriding
3 things here have to deal with the Port Master
4 Plan as it exists, which is a component of the
5 comprehensive plan in that it says that -- it
6 actually has a policy within the Port Master
7 Plan which requires, at this point, any
8 facilities that are of a cruise ship activity or
9 development that they actually have this
10 particular land use rather than a
11 commercial/general land use.
12 MR. HOLT: Can I stop you for just a
13 second?
14 So what you just said was the reason that
15 we're changing the land use is because in their
16 master plan they require that their cruise ship
17 terminal would have water dependent/water
18 related --
19 MR. CROFTS: In the existing --
20 MR. HOLT: -- not anything that we as a
21 City would require because we as a City and, I
22 guess, the State are perfectly fine with a CGC
23 land use for a cruise terminal?
24 MR. CROFTS: I would think that -- the
25 first part of your statement was correct. That
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1 was a large part of it, I think, as you go
2 through the interpretation of it, but there is
3 a -- the fact that the conservation coastal
4 management JaxPort sub-element requires it is a
5 primary stipulation in itself.
6 I think if you go back and look and
7 evaluate the land uses as well, you will see
8 that port related and port development and port
9 related land uses in the water dependent/water
10 related are oriented to these types of uses, so
11 I think it's inherent in the land use category.
12 Now, the fact that there's an existing
13 casino cruise ship terminal -- or facility out
14 there, it's not viewed in the same way, it's not
15 necessarily a port-related type of use and it's
16 more of a recreation, entertainment, which sort
17 of relates to a marina-type activity, which is
18 more in the CGC land use category.
19 But, first and foremost, it's already in
20 the comprehensive plan, in the Port Master Plan,
21 that these types of uses be this particular type
22 of land use.
23 MR. HOLT: Okay. So the difference, I
24 guess, between the SunCruz and this would be the
25 intensity and, therefore, everyone kind of felt
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1 like it was best to move into a land use
2 category that was securely okay for a major
3 cruise terminal?
4 MR. CROFTS: That would be a good
5 summarization.
6 What I've been trying to say here is the
7 fact that it is already, number one, a part of
8 the plan -- required as part of the plan, and
9 also the use is more related and part of the
10 water dependent/water related, which emphasizes,
11 if you look at the category, port-related uses
12 and development, which this particular use
13 embellishes.
14 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you.
15 Through the Chair to Mr. Crofts again,
16 there was some mention this evening about the
17 Navy possibly having a problem with this,
18 specifically for the height and possibly because
19 of traffic. Do we have any response from the
20 Navy that -- anything at all that would indicate
21 that they have a problem with this?
22 MR. CROFTS: As part of the land use and
23 the rezoning, there was communication, an
24 attachment that's provided as part of your
25 report, that says that the Navy has no objection
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1 to this particular use, and that is part of the
2 record and in your particular report to you and
3 the committee -- other committee members.
4 MR. HOLT: Who is it that we communicate
5 with over there? Who made the statement that
6 they have no problem with it, that they have no
7 objection?
8 MR. CROFTS: The --
9 MR. HOLT: I'm just asking this because --
10 I mean, that's very important to me, that we
11 support the Navy. And, frankly, if they had a
12 problem with it, there's no way I would sign off
13 on it. I would oppose it as well.
14 MR. CROFTS: As part of the -- you know,
15 the AICUZ process that we went through, we've
16 had, you know, the amendment to the zoning code,
17 Part 10. We've had extensive coordination with
18 Jax NAS, the Navy.
19 This particular communication was from a
20 gentlemen by the name of McCann [sic].
21 I would defer to Bill Killingsworth if he's
22 got that particular communication.
23 Bill or Kristen, if you wouldn't mind
24 interjecting.
25 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: Through the Chair to
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1 the council member, if you'll look on page 30
2 for the report to this, that's the e-mail from
3 the Navy. The e-mail was from a Michael McVann
4 (phonetic), and there he states that, "As we
5 have discussed, the existing Part 10 heightened
6 hazard surfaces use a step approach and do not
7 exactly replicate the sloped surfaces that the
8 Navy uses. Therefore, although the proposed
9 JaxPort PUD exceeds the Part 10 height zones for
10 Naval Station Mayport, they are well under our
11 seven-to-one transition slope service.
12 "Naval Station Mayport has no objection to
13 the proposed PUD zoning and land use amendment
14 for the Mayport cruise terminal."
15 MR. HOLT: Thank you, sir.
16 Okay. Through the Chair to Mr. Crofts
17 again, there's some changes to the road, to
18 Ocean Street, that are going to be made as part
19 of the PUD, but there's also a plan, I guess, by
20 FDOT to make some changes to Ocean Street, A1A
21 as it goes back out toward Atlantic Beach.
22 Could you tell us a little more in detail
23 what is going to be done? And, specifically, if
24 you could address the elevation of the road in
25 the area where there's been a flooding problem.
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1 I understand that if you have particularly
2 high tides, if the moon is right and the tide is
3 right, water floods the road and stops all
4 traffic. Is that going to be addressed in the
5 FDOT plans, and when will those road changes
6 occur?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I can actually answer that
8 question.
9 I spoke to DOT today, and that's going to
10 happen -- they're going to let the contract in
11 February of '09, and the project should
12 hopefully start in May of '09. And they plan on
13 actually raising that section of the road on top
14 of resurfacing all the way out to the end, to
15 the lighthouse.
16 MR. HOLT: Excellent. Thank you,
17 Mr. Chair.
18 And I guess this question could go to
19 either the Planning Department or somebody from
20 JaxPort if they want to jump in and give me some
21 information on this.
22 We've heard a lot about pollution tonight.
23 Let's start off with air pollution.
24 Mr. Crofts, do we have any information, do
25 we have any case law that supports the idea that
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1 cruise ship emissions have caused health
2 problems?
3 There was one gentleman who came up here
4 and said that it's been proven that bunker C
5 fuel kills children. Now, when you make a
6 statement like that, I guess it's coming from
7 some sort of case history. Do we have any
8 information on any health problems related to
9 cruise ships?
10 And if the JaxPort folks want to jump up to
11 the mic and tell me if they have any
12 information, that would be great too.
13 MR. CROFTS: To Mr. Holt, through the
14 Chair, for your particular interest, we have
15 provided somebody from our Environmental Quality
16 Division. Mr. Robinson is here this evening,
17 and I think he's prepared to address this
18 particular issue as it may exist in terms of the
19 potential impacts in air quality in the city of
20 Jacksonville, this particular use, as well as
21 provide maybe some more specific information
22 with regard to this particular bunker C fuel.
23 MR. HOLT: That would be great.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, name and address for
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1 the record, please.
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Richard
3 Robinson. I work for the Environmental Quality
4 Division, 117 West Duval Street, Jacksonville,
5 Florida 32202.
6 As far as the burning of bunker C fuel at
7 the dock, I have not been provided, really, any
8 information on how much fuel they plan to burn
9 in order to determine if there would be -- you
10 know, what the exact impact might be, but
11 currently, the City of Jacksonville is in
12 attainment with all the National Ambient Air
13 Quality Standards.
14 Looking at our emission inventory that's
15 been done, currently ship emissions in
16 Jacksonville count for approximately 4 percent
17 of the total mobile source NOx emissions and
18 2 percent of total NOx emissions from all source
19 categories.
20 MR. HOLT: And when you say shipping, you
21 mean all ships, not just cruise ships?
22 MR. ROBINSON: Right, all ships that would
23 enter Jacksonville.
24 Currently, the -- on October 9th of this
25 year, the International Maritime Organization
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1 has adopted some new standards for engines and
2 fuels for oceangoing vessels, and the EPA has
3 also proposed some more stringent standards for
4 these oceangoing vessels. It's certainly in the
5 proposed stage right now, which would reduce the
6 sulfur content and the NOx emissions from
7 oceangoing vessels. The standards, the way
8 they're proposed, though, would be phased in
9 over a period of years.
10 Also, as part of the standards, areas which
11 are considered a nonattainment for the National
12 Ambient Air Quality Standards, they have the --
13 they consider those emission control areas, and
14 the standards would be more stringent and phased
15 in sooner in those areas. So some areas, like
16 in California, that have had problems with their
17 air quality, the standards would be even more
18 stringent.
19 MR. HOLT: Mr. Robinson, let me stop you
20 right there and ask you a little more pointed
21 question.
22 Do you know of any cases locally or
23 anywhere else that cruise ship emissions have
24 caused a problem? Have they ever been cited, or
25 have you researched this and found any
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1 indication that cruise ship emissions have
2 caused health problems?
3 MR. ROBINSON: I have no information that
4 would actually support that.
5 Most information we look at is -- as far as
6 whether the ship emissions would have an impact
7 on us meeting the National Ambient Air Quality
8 Standards when it comes to public health issues,
9 that really has to be addressed by the Health
10 Department.
11 I haven't had a lot of time to do any
12 research on this subject. I haven't -- so I'm
13 not sure that -- I have not seen anything that
14 would indicate that.
15 MR. HOLT: Well, I appreciate you giving me
16 the information you have, and I'll do a little
17 more research between now and next week's
18 council meeting maybe with the FDEP.
19 But thank you very much, sir.
20 MR. ROBINSON: You're welcome.
21 MR. HOLT: Through the Chair, could I get
22 Mr. Kaufman or somebody -- whoever with the Port
23 you think would be best to handle this question,
24 and it is about the handling of waste water and
25 any other kind of water pollution from the
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1 cruise lines.
2 (Mr. Orsini approaches the podium.)
3 MR. HOLT: That would be a Tony issue?
4 Get the engineer out here.
5 MR. ORSINI: Through the Chair to
6 Mr. Holt -- yes, sir.
7 MR. HOLT: I've heard you describe the
8 process before, but there may be other folks
9 here who have not, and I'd like for you to
10 explain to us what exactly is coming off of
11 these ships and where it's coming off.
12 MR. ORSINI: Okay. Let's start with the
13 ship in the port. When she is tied up at the
14 dock, there is absolutely nothing that comes out
15 of the ship that goes into the water, nothing.
16 The ship discharges its waste water and its
17 garbage -- let me talk about those one at a
18 time.
19 There's a product called bilge water. That
20 is the water that collects in the bilge of the
21 ship and it is commonly referred to also as oily
22 waste. That material is taken off the ship by
23 pumps when it is at our dock. It is put into
24 tanker trucks, typically 8,000-gallon tanker
25 trucks, and then it is hauled off of the port by
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1 licensed contractors who are properly equipped
2 to handle and dispose of that waste.
3 The oily bilge water is done at the port.
4 It is done in an environmentally-controlled
5 fashion. There's booms around the trucks, booms
6 around the hoses. Nothing comes out that goes
7 into the environment except going into the
8 trucks and off for disposal.
9 The sewage, if we may talk about sewage
10 from the ship. Cruise ships do, and all
11 oceangoing vessels do discharge their sewage
12 waste at sea. Cruise lines, they go through --
13 they take their sewage through primary and
14 secondary treatment on board the ship and then
15 they discharge at sea no closer than 12 miles to
16 any shoreline and at a speed of no less than six
17 knots to avoid any concentration at sea.
18 They do the same with their gray water.
19 Gray water is laundry water. And although the
20 regulations allow them to dump gray water within
21 three miles of any shoreline, the cruise lines,
22 and Carnival especially, says that their policy
23 is to treat it also as they do sewage. It is
24 not discharged within 12 miles of any shoreline
25 and is also done at a minimum speed of six
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1 knots.
2 Garbage. Garbage is incinerated, and it is
3 incinerated no closer than 12 miles to any
4 shoreline also.
5 Let's talk about trash. There is a lot of
6 glass and metals that come off the ship in ways
7 of bottles and cans. The glass is taken off the
8 ship in two categories, in clear and in colored
9 glass. It is packaged, it is plastic wrapped.
10 It comes off the ships on pallets. It is put
11 into containers on our dock and contractors pick
12 this up and take -- and this glass is taken to
13 recycling centers.
14 They do the same with metals. They take
15 ferrous metals, they take aluminums. They
16 separate them. They are plastic wrapped,
17 palletized. They come off the ship, go into
18 containers. And, again, are taken off by
19 contractors and go to recycling centers.
20 And then there's a certain amount of
21 paper. The paper is separated into white paper
22 and to cardboards, and those are recycled also.
23 And then there's just plain trash that
24 comes off the boat. That does get, again,
25 wrapped up and palletized and it does go to
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1 landfills.
2 I think that covers just about everything
3 that comes off the ship.
4 There is some hazardous materials. Most of
5 the hazardous materials on the ship are
6 photographic materials. These are the chemicals
7 that they use to produce and print photographs.
8 These also are taken off the ship. They come
9 off and -- I believe it's 32-gallon
10 polypropylene drums, but they come off in sealed
11 drums and they are also taken by contractors
12 that are licensed to dispose of this type of
13 material.
14 MR. HOLT: If they even use that technology
15 anymore.
16 MR. ORSINI: Yes, they do a little bit.
17 MR. HOLT: Okay. Well, thank you very
18 much. You've answered the question very well.
19 MR. ORSINI: Thank you.
20 MR. HOLT: The environmental issues were
21 one of the things that I keyed in on. That was
22 very important to me, and I was glad that we had
23 some folks here to speak about the other
24 locations that have been considered, Pine Island
25 being the one that was considered for quite a
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1 while.
2 And, Ms. Goodman, I appreciate you coming
3 down and telling us what your organization --
4 how you feel about it.
5 You know, we have talked about ecotourism
6 and why it hasn't happened in eight years and
7 what a cruise terminal might do to improve or
8 detract from the chances of having more
9 ecotourism in the area.
10 Personally, I think that -- you know, we've
11 spent several million dollars out there to try
12 to work on the ecotourism plan, and I think we
13 could spend 40 million more building a
14 facility -- well, goodness.
15 We could bring in a lot of new attractions,
16 and I really don't think it would bring the
17 private investment that would be necessary. I
18 don't think it's enough to say, you know,
19 Mayport was here in 1562 and somebody landed
20 here. I don't think that people are going to
21 come there so that they can look at a lighthouse
22 through a fence.
23 I actually spoke with a gentleman who did
24 a study on this about eight years ago.
25 Dr. Stephen Holland from the University of
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1 Florida did our study on market opportunities
2 for ecotourism. Well, I called him up, and he
3 said, you know, I think that a cruise terminal
4 could have a positive impact on that. I
5 certainly don't see any possibility of a
6 negative impact.
7 So if we want to talk to the expert -- I
8 called him over at the University of Florida,
9 and he seemed to be of a positive outlook on the
10 cruise terminal and the impact that it might
11 have pre and post cruise excursions, and I'd
12 certainly love to see them too.
13 I'd love to see cruise ships have
14 excursions before and after, where they send
15 people out to Kingsley Plantation or golf
16 packages or whatever, out on the preserve to
17 kayak. I think it would be great, but the
18 economic impact was not really the issue to make
19 a land use decision on for me. I think it would
20 be wrong to make a decision on land use based on
21 whether it's going to bring jobs or not. As
22 many people said tonight, that would be unfair
23 and it would be greedy to make our decision
24 based on that. So if anybody is making their
25 decision based on how we're going to profit from
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1 the cruise terminal, I think that's wrong.
2 But having said all of that, I think it
3 comes down to an issue of property rights and
4 what's best for the community.
5 Most of this property, I believe, comes
6 from a gentleman named Matt Roland, who used to
7 run a seafood business, and most of the shrimp
8 boats would dock behind there and sell their
9 shrimp and seafood to him.
10 I looked at a story from the Times Union
11 earlier this year, and it says that -- where is
12 it? Mr. Roland said that at that point he had
13 ten shrimpers using his docks and only four of
14 them were making enough money to go out
15 regularly.
16 The shrimp and seafood business has gone
17 downhill for a variety of reasons, the main one
18 being imported seafood and recently the big
19 spike in the cost of diesel fuel.
20 But it comes down to a matter of property
21 rights. This gentleman sold his property to, I
22 believe, Vestcor, who, in turn, later sold it to
23 JaxPort, but he sold his property because he
24 couldn't make a go of it in that business. And
25 for us to tell later owners of that property
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1 that we think that they shouldn't be able to use
2 the property in a way that, as far as I can
3 tell, is perfectly legal -- and if we were to
4 deny it, it would put us in a legal bind because
5 I think that the court could, in turn, come back
6 and overturn any -- our decision if we denied
7 this.
8 They're in an area that is predominantly
9 water related/water dependent, and I think it's
10 a fair request that they go to the water
11 related/water dependent where they are.
12 I think I vetted all these issues pretty
13 well. I've gone through about six different
14 issues: pollution and the roadway and whether
15 the Navy approves and environmental issues.
16 I've spent probably 30 hours on this because
17 this is in my district, and I took it very
18 personally, making the right decision on this,
19 what is right for the community and what is the
20 right thing to do and the legal thing to do.
21 I'm going to support this. I think
22 ultimately we will find that this decision will
23 bring a better financial decision to the area.
24 I think it will be a good financial decision to
25 do that to the area, but that's not really the
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1 reason to make the decision.
2 I think ultimately we need to -- we need to
3 make a decision that -- as the legal one
4 considering the property rights that these folks
5 have, that's what we kind of deal with here in
6 Land Use.
7 I think I've covered the issue pretty
8 well. I may have other questions later, but at
9 this point I would just encourage my colleagues
10 to support it because I think it's the right
11 thing for the community and I think it's the
12 right decision.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Holt.
14 Mr. Redman.
15 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 And, thank you, Mr. Holt, for all the work
17 that you've done in negotiating and working with
18 both sides of this.
19 And I too think that this can be a viable
20 thing for the community as long as the
21 preservation of the community is taken into
22 consideration, you know, and preserving the
23 historic resources of the community and the
24 residential neighborhood. These fine people
25 deserve, you know, to be looked after and -- and
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1 the care that they want.
2 But there is one thing that was brought to
3 my attention, the parking garage. There's some
4 thought that this could be put on the other side
5 of the road, where you wouldn't have the dock
6 area, the waterfront covered by a parking
7 garage. Has that ever -- somebody from the Port
8 answer that for me?
9 (Mr. Kaufman approaches the podium.)
10 MR. KAUFMAN: Dave Kaufman, 2831 Talleyrand
11 Avenue.
12 Through the Chair, yes, Councilman Redman,
13 we did look at that option. In fact, the
14 original plan called for that arrangement, where
15 we would have the parking garage on the south or
16 east side of Ocean Street with the terminal on
17 the other side, the water side.
18 Several issues that we encountered in
19 trying to do that: One, it involved really
20 putting the -- what was probably -- what is the
21 largest of the structures into the residential
22 neighborhood and up against residential homes
23 much closer than we are today, and that became a
24 concern from several of the residents we
25 received phone calls from that were concerned
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1 that their home was now going to overlook this
2 five-story parking garage.
3 The other issues that we had were the
4 number of parcels that would need to be acquired
5 in order to accommodate that construction, which
6 would have involved a few residences as well as
7 a church that's in that area.
8 And then the third factor from an
9 operational perspective that caused us as much
10 concern, if not more, is the fact that you would
11 now end up with a transportation pattern where
12 passengers would be dropped off at the terminal,
13 the driver would then cross back across Ocean
14 Street, park his car, and then have to go back
15 across. So you've got this continual loop of
16 traffic across Ocean Street, which would impact
17 the traffic flow through the village.
18 By incorporating it all on the same side of
19 the road, we're able to have that traffic flow,
20 drop off your passenger and go directly into the
21 parking garage without having to back -- and
22 access Ocean Street again. And so we keep all
23 the traffic, once you've gone into the drop-off
24 area, off of Ocean Street and eliminate that
25 back-and-forth traffic flow.
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1 So I think it works better for the
2 community in this fashion.
3 MR. REDMAN: Thank you.
4 It was brought to my attention that some
5 people would like to have it on the other side
6 of the road so that the riverfront -- waterfront
7 would be accessible --
8 MR. KAUFMAN: Well, we think by placing the
9 garage where we did on the waterfront, which is
10 at the southern end of the property, we're up
11 against the Safe Harbor warehouse facility, so
12 it becomes more compatible at that end of the
13 property as opposed to in the middle of the
14 village.
15 And we also -- regarding the garage -- I
16 think it's important to understand that the
17 height of the garage is consistent with what the
18 Mayport overlay calls for, which is a maximum
19 height of 50 feet. We're not asking for a
20 waiver from that in any regard.
21 We've also built into the facade of the
22 garage -- actually, out in front of the facade
23 of the garage, sticks out about 18 feet from the
24 garage, the ground floor retail space so that as
25 you're walking down the street what you're
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1 encountering is, you know, the retail space with
2 the garage set off back behind it so you don't
3 have this wall effect, like you have on a lot of
4 urban garage structures.
5 MR. REDMAN: If that garage was a little
6 bit farther to the south and on the other side
7 of the road, it wouldn't be in between the
8 waterway and the houses, right?
9 MR. KAUFMAN: It would not be. You would
10 still have the traffic flow issue going back and
11 forth across Ocean Street. And that property
12 also is, as far as I'm conc- -- know at this
13 point, is not currently available.
14 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I have no further people on
16 the queue, so --
17 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think there's an
19 amendment.
20 MS. ELLER: There is an amendment. There's
21 a technical amendment.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. What is the technical
23 </