1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE


       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING


       3                         COMMITTEE






       6             Proceedings held on Monday, November 3,


       7   2008, commencing at 5:03 p.m., City Hall, Council


       8   Chambers, 1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before


       9   Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State


      10   of Florida at Large.




      12   PRESENT:


      13        ART GRAHAM, Chair.

                STEPHEN JOOST, Vice Chair.

      14        JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.

                RAY HOLT, Committee Member.

      15        JACK WEBB, Committee Member.

                DON REDMAN, Committee Member.



      17   ALSO PRESENT:


      18        BILL BISHOP, City Council Member.

                MICHAEL CORRIGAN, City Council Member.

      19        WARREN JONES, City Council Member.

                CLAY YARBOROUGH, City Council Member.

      20        JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

                SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

      21        BILL KILLINGSWORTH, Planning and Dev Dept.

                STEVE SMITH, Planning and Development Dept.

      22        JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.

                SHANNON ELLER, Office of General Counsel.

      23        DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.

                MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.

      24        MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.


      25                         -  -  -





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   November 3, 2008                        5:03 p.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good afternoon, everybody.


       5             Let the record show it is 5 o'clockish.  It


       6        is Monday, November 3rd.  This is the Land Use


       7        and Zoning Committee meeting.


       8             If we start over here on our right with


       9        Mr. Crofts, let's introduce ourselves.


      10             MR. CROFTS:  John Crofts, Planning and


      11        Development Department.


      12             MR. KELLY:  Sean Kelly, Planning and


      13        Development.


      14             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Bill Killingsworth,


      15        Planning and Development.


      16             MR. McEACHIN:  Joel McEachin, Planning and


      17        Development.


      18             MS. ELLER:  Shannon Eller, General


      19        Counsel's Office.


      20             MR. TEAL:  Jason Teal, General Counsel's


      21        Office.


      22             MR. REDMAN:  Don Redman, Council


      23        District 4.


      24             DR. GAFFNEY:  Councilman Gaffney,


      25        District 7.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  Ray Holt, District 11.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Art Graham, District 13.


       3             MR. JOOST:  Stephen Joost, Group 3


       4        at-large.


       5             MR. WEBB:  Jack Webb, City Council,


       6        District 6.


       7             MR. CORRIGAN:  Michael --


       8             MR. WEBB:  Corrigan.


       9             MR. CORRIGAN:  -- Corrigan, City Council,


      10        District 14.


      11             Thank you, Mr. Webb.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let the record show that


      13        Richard Clark has an excused absence, and I


      14        think we're ready to roll.


      15             As our practice normally is, if we have


      16        visiting councilmembers, such as Mr. Corrigan,


      17        here, we'll take their bills up first, and then


      18        we'll do everything else pretty much in order.


      19             So, Mr. Corrigan, what is your wish?


      20             MR. CORRIGAN:  I'll do it either way, sir.


      21             I have two items.  Item number 7 and item


      22        number 80 on your agenda.  The item number 7 is


      23        an appeal and item number 80 is another bill


      24        that I have.  I'll take either order you'd like


      25        to do it in, Mr. Chairman.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  You said 80 and number 7,


       2        correct?


       3             MR. CORRIGAN:  That is correct.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let's go ahead and do


       5        number 80.


       6             Turn to page 20.  Get that out of the way,


       7        send some people home.


       8             2008-923.  We have an amendment.


       9             MR. HOLT:  Move the amendment.


      10             MR. WEBB:  Second.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment has been moved


      12        and seconded.


      13             Any discussion on the amendment?


      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Can we hear the amendment?


      16             MS. ELLER:  Mr. Chairman, the amendment


      17        will be your recommendation regarding the


      18        special magistrate's recommended action to the


      19        council, and I believe Dylan Reingold is here to


      20        explain what your options are, and I think


      21        Councilman Corrigan also has a presentation for


      22        you-all to consider on the amendment.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Reingold.


      24             MR. REINGOLD:  To the committee,


      25        essentially right now what you have before you





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        is a special magistrate hearing.  And, as


       2        Ms. Eller stated, Councilmember Corrigan, I


       3        think, is going to kind of explain the history.


       4        I don't want to steal his thunder.


       5             But what the amendment would be from the


       6        committee is to either accept, reject, or accept


       7        with modifications the special magistrate's


       8        recommendation.


       9             And, with that, I guess I will turn it over


      10        to the councilmember.


      11             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      12             I'll give a little bit of background since


      13        a number of you on this committee weren't here,


      14        and I'll try to be as brief as possible.


      15             This particular issue is located at the


      16        intersection of Herschel Street and Lakeside


      17        Drive in my district.  Back in 2004, we did


      18        months of negotiations with the developer and


      19        the neighbors and finally passed a PUD


      20        application that was approved by this council in


      21        2004.


      22             The main focus -- one of the main focuses


      23        of it was the height of the finished building.


      24        There is a commercial building located just next


      25        to this development that has a maximum roof





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        height of 55 feet.  That was an area of great


       2        concern during our negotiations of this PUD back


       3        and forth.


       4             We eventually -- this council passed an


       5        amendment -- or passed the PUD that capped the


       6        height of the buildings at 55 feet.  The -- what


       7        we considered the height at that point was the


       8        peak of the roof.


       9             We found out during our negotiations and


      10        after the PUD was verified that that's actually


      11        the eave height of the building, so the actual


      12        buildings being built, the peak of the roof is


      13        higher than 55 feet.  So that's quite upsetting


      14        to the neighborhood because they thought they


      15        were getting one thing and now they're getting


      16        another.


      17             Then the developer has -- now has three


      18        buildings.  Originally, there was one building,


      19        now has three buildings, and he filed a minor


      20        modification request to increase the one


      21        building to 65 feet, so even 10 feet higher than


      22        they were already.


      23             The Planning Commission reviewed the


      24        documentation and denied the minor


      25        modification.  This LUZ Committee then upheld





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        the Planning Commission's decision to deny that


       2        minor modification, then Council supported the


       3        LUZ's work.


       4             Now, the developer had sought review by a


       5        special magistrate in a special magistrate


       6        proceeding.  The special magistrate looked at


       7        the facts of the case and he said that the City


       8        should grant the minor modification to allow the


       9        increase of height by another story on that


      10        building.


      11             He said that no further changes to the PUD


      12        should happen unless there's extraordinary


      13        circumstances.  There have been a number of


      14        changes in this PUD in the process, and he says


      15        no more, no more changes after this point.


      16             And the part that really has some concern


      17        that this committee should really focus on is


      18        that they reviewed the legality of a


      19        councilmember's involvement in a PUD


      20        verification process.


      21             If you're a district councilperson, you


      22        know that when a PUD comes back for substantial


      23        compliance to what we passed, we review it and


      24        then have a chance to send comments to them.


      25        And the special magistrate really questioned





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        that and said that that was -- he thought above


       2        what we should be allowed to be able to do, and


       3        issued a 26-page order.  He substituted his


       4        opinion over the City Council's on the impact of


       5        the view corridors and everything else that will


       6        happen because of this increased height.


       7             His decision was based on the expectation


       8        that the developer had a conversation with me.


       9        After I initially questioned the PUD


      10        verification on this, I met with the developer


      11        and one of the neighbors to talk about what --


      12        what I thought the issues were, and the


      13        developer thought that that was the final


      14        ruling.  They thought that I was the -- they


      15        called me a "super councilmember" as part of


      16        this process, and I didn't have a


      17        properly-noticed public meeting with the


      18        developer.


      19             So really what I had was just some opinion


      20        conversations, which I then disclosed during


      21        this -- the appeal process.  They said that the


      22        councilmember's conversation shouldn't trump the


      23        council and the council's decision, the PUD


      24        deal.


      25             And he also said in the order that he





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        confused -- that in the order he presented, he


       2        confused the minor modification process with


       3        what -- the PUD verification process that we all


       4        look at as district councilpeople.  So he really


       5        had some confusion in that and probably didn't


       6        totally understand the processes that we used.


       7             So having said all that, there's several


       8        things that I'd wish this committee would do.  I


       9        would like this committee to reject the increase


      10        in height as the special magistrate suggested.


      11        I'd like to accept his recommendation as to


      12        limit future changes in this PUD.


      13             The reason you do a PUD -- and I don't have


      14        to remind this group, it's a planned unit


      15        development.  Well, if you're still planning,


      16        they probably shouldn't have passed the PUD, so


      17        they need to stop making changes to this PUD


      18        that was approved four years ago.


      19             And I'm -- I regret -- probably


      20        hesitantly -- probably accept his recommendation


      21        in part to review the legality of our PUD


      22        verification process.


      23             They brought up some pretty good points I


      24        think we need to consider, and I personally have


      25        been and will continue to work with the General





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Counsel's Office to do legislation to address


       2        the issues that were raised in the hearing, and


       3        then I'll bring that legislation back to this


       4        committee prior to introduction to be able to


       5        have your -- this committee's opinion on it


       6        before I introduce it to the full council.


       7             So there's four things -- or five things,


       8        Mr. Chairman.  Well, really four actions:


       9        Reject the height; accept his recommendation to


      10        limit changes; accept his recommendation to


      11        review the legality of our PUD verification


      12        process; and then, finally, work on legislation


      13        to address the issues that were raised at the


      14        hearing.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, Mr. Corrigan, I can


      16        tell you, because I lived the whole site plan


      17        verification thing -- I think it started in my


      18        district, and it kind of mushroomed from there,


      19        so -- and on top of that, I think you are a


      20        super councilmember.


      21             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  That being said, committee


      23        members, we have a request for -- I think it was


      24        four amendments, or we'll call it the Corrigan


      25        amendment.  But since he is not on this





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        committee --


       2             MR. WEBB:  Move the amendment.


       3             MR. HOLT:  Second.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and a second


       5        on the Corrigan amendment.


       6             We'll call it the Webb amendment.


       7             And we are -- discussions on the Webb


       8        amendment?


       9             Mr. Joost.


      10             MR. JOOST:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      11             Through legal, the magistrate recommended


      12        the increase in height, and I guess what I'm


      13        kind of reading between the lines is that he


      14        implied that there must be an issue with some of


      15        the legality of where we came down on this, and


      16        that -- you know, and that's why we should be


      17        reviewing these legal issues.


      18             If we go against the magistrate's


      19        recommendation, what are the legal implications


      20        of our actions?


      21             MR. REINGOLD:  To Councilmember Joost,


      22        first off -- there were a lot of parts to that


      23        question.  I'll try to deal with them as best I


      24        can in the order that they were presented.


      25             First off, the first question that the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        special magistrate had was -- the special


       2        magistrate was given the job of determining


       3        whether the decision of not allowing the


       4        increase in height was unreasonable or unfairly


       5        burdened the use of the property.


       6             In the special magistrate's order, the


       7        special magistrate talks about how that there


       8        will be a partial but minimal viewshed blockage


       9        for a few units, but such restriction is not


      10        significant given, you know, the other units in


      11        the building.


      12             On top of that, though, the special


      13        magistrate did state that MLG/Ortega had a


      14        reasonable expectation that the City's Planning


      15        and Development Department and Councilmember


      16        Corrigan would not oppose the height increase.


      17             Additionally, the special magistrate


      18        discussed the issue that the actions of the City


      19        representatives are an important consideration


      20        in this proceeding.


      21             So there was kind of a combination, as


      22        Councilmember Corrigan talked about.  His first


      23        thought was maybe it has a minimal impact on the


      24        view corridor, but also to look at the


      25        additional actions of the City's representatives





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        in coming up with a determination as to whether


       2        ultimately the decision of the City was


       3        unreasonable and unfairly burdened the property.


       4             Now, to go to the question of the future,


       5        sort of where we go from here, is -- first off,


       6        I will tell you there is a pending writ of


       7        certiorari petition that has been filed, that


       8        has been put on hold for the determination of


       9        the special magistrate proceeding.


      10             That simply would require an answer brief


      11        from the City.  The issues at hand in that case


      12        would be whether we offered due process; whether


      13        there was proper notice; whether we applied the


      14        correct law; and, finally, whether there was


      15        substantial competent evidence on the record to


      16        justify the decision.


      17             That's one aspect of future legality.  And


      18        it's not a damages claim; it's just a simple,


      19        straight-up review of the record.


      20             After that -- I mean, the applicants


      21        certainly have the right to file whatever


      22        other -- other lawsuits they may care to bring.


      23        It's kind of an awkward position for me to


      24        advise you as to what lawsuits they could


      25        bring.  They could bring a Bert Harris Act





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        claim, they could bring a takings claim.  I


       2        mean, there are other, you know, options


       3        available to them.


       4             But those are sort of where we are, how we


       5        got here, and where they could go from there.


       6             MR. JOOST:  Just as a follow-up, why did


       7        the magistrate come to a conclusion that the


       8        developer or the condominium people would have a


       9        reasonable expectation that this height


      10        restriction would not be imposed?


      11             I mean, why would they -- was there


      12        existing evidence or existing cases before where


      13        we had allowed this and therefore they have a


      14        reasonable expectation of this height?  I mean,


      15        why would the magistrate say that?


      16             MR. REINGOLD:  To Councilmember Joost, to


      17        go into the history of the case a little bit


      18        more, to answer your question, what essentially


      19        happened -- and Councilman Corrigan was


      20        getting -- or addressing this issue -- was


      21        during the PUD verification process, the


      22        Planning Department had rejected the plans that


      23        had been brought to the Planning Department.


      24        There were supposed to be three buildings, one


      25        at 65 feet in height, one at 55 feet in height,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        and another one at 55 feet in height.


       2             The Planning Department met -- the


       3        applicant met with the Planning Department and


       4        also the councilmember, and the Planning


       5        Department or the councilmember made clear to


       6        them, well, if you don't like it, you can come


       7        in for a PUD to PUD verif- -- you know, I mean,


       8        rezoning.  You can go for a minor mod.  You


       9        know, there are aspects of this that you can


      10        do.  There are processes that you can utilize to


      11        change the PUD.


      12             The applicant talked to the Planning


      13        Department and Councilman Corrigan and said,


      14        well, I'll do 65 feet on one building, 55 feet


      15        on another, and 45 feet on a third building.


      16        And they said, and we'll come in for a minor mod


      17        for the increase in height for 65 feet.  From


      18        the record information, it appears that the


      19        Planning Department had agreed we'd support you


      20        on the increase of height from 55 to 65 feet.


      21             Councilman Corrigan has stated all along, I


      22        stated this was a minor mod; this doesn't come


      23        to me; this doesn't come to the City Council;


      24        that's a Planning Commission decision.


      25             And the applicants have essentially stated





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        we felt that that meant that Councilmember


       2        Corrigan would support us.


       3             I'm of the opinion -- and I made this case


       4        very clear at the special magistrate hearing --


       5        even if the councilmember had said he would


       6        support it, he certainly doesn't have the right


       7        to bind the City Council to any future decision.


       8             So, in my opinion, they had been -- it had


       9        not been a justifiable expectation on their


      10        part, knowing that if it -- it was going to go


      11        to Planning Commission.  And then, if appealed,


      12        it would have to go to City Council and it would


      13        go to 19 council members and not one.


      14             That was kind of the issue with respect to


      15        the expectations of the developer.


      16             MR. JOOST:  And I'm sure Councilman


      17        Corrigan would like to speak for himself.


      18             On the other two, on the 55 and 45, those


      19        buildings, have those -- I'm assuming that's


      20        passed and they're ready to go on to those two?


      21             MR. REINGOLD:  They've actually almost


      22        completed building the 45-foot building.  I


      23        think they're under construction on the 55, and


      24        the whole issue right now is whether the final


      25        building will be 55 or 65 feet.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. JOOST:  And my last question would be,


       2        in your vast experience, how often do we go


       3        against what a judge/magistrate recommends in


       4        our council history?


       5             MR. REINGOLD:  In the three-and-a-half


       6        years that I've been here, I think this is the


       7        first one that I've seen -- that I've been


       8        involved with under Section 70.51.  I don't --


       9        so I don't recall us going either way with


      10        respect to a decision in this regard.


      11             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan.


      13             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      14             I'd just like to further clarify to


      15        Councilmember Joost and the committee, there was


      16        a great deal of discussion about this meeting


      17        that the developer and a neighbor and I had.


      18        And, as Mr. Reingold said, they asked at that


      19        meeting to the Planning Department, would you


      20        support this minor modification of 65 feet?  And


      21        the Planning Department's reaction was, I don't


      22        think we would oppose that.


      23             They turned and asked me, and I said -- and


      24        I would swear to this on a Bible under oath, I


      25        said, I believe those go to the Planning





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Commission.  The Planning Department verified


       2        that, and then they -- I said, so, therefore, I


       3        don't need to have an answer because it does not


       4        come to us.


       5             I knew -- I know the law that I operate


       6        under.  I knew that if I took a position there,


       7        it would have jeopardized my ability to come to


       8        LUZ and discuss it or take a position there, so


       9        I did not take a position at that meeting, and


      10        now I'm glad I didn't because I still have the


      11        ability to come and talk to you.


      12             Remember, this started out as one building


      13        at the maximum height of 55 feet.  It's now


      14        turning to three buildings with the 45, 55, and


      15        now they're asking for a 65 foot height.  It's


      16        the fourth time that this committee has had to


      17        take time and taking time away from other issues


      18        you could be discussing to discuss this.


      19             So I appreciate your patience and your


      20        understanding and hope that I have your support.


      21             Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan, did you have a


      23        town meeting when you first dealt with this


      24        entire piece of property?


      25             MR. CORRIGAN:  Councilmember Graham, we had





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        a town meeting.  We also had another meeting the


       2        night of LUZ.  We went into the Renaissance Room


       3        for all the parties to come in kind of separate


       4        for them to air some differences.  It was


       5        deferred several times.  I think there was a


       6        total of about 14 meetings that took place


       7        leading up to this with various different


       8        entities trying to come up with a compromise, so


       9        it's been very well vetted.


      10             The problem is the people that are being


      11        cut out now is the public.  The developers had


      12        all these other special meetings and everything


      13        else in this case and the public has never had


      14        much of a chance to give their input again.


      15             If they'd done what I suggested originally,


      16        which was a PUD to PUD change to do the changes,


      17        we wouldn't be sitting here having this


      18        discussion tonight.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Corrigan.


      20             Well, I know this is -- we're not going to


      21        fix the whole PUD process in this -- this bill


      22        that's before us, but, you know, any one of you


      23        council members that had a town meeting and


      24        talking about a rezoning understand, when you


      25        walk out of that town meeting, all those





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        constituents think that they made a deal and


       2        they've worked out what this PUD is going to


       3        look like.


       4             And when that PUD changes on them, they


       5        look at you thinking that you have lied to them


       6        and you've misled them, and so that's why this


       7        process is just -- you know, it's a great


       8        process if you can lock it down.


       9             And that's also why we went round and round


      10        and round with the whole site plan verification,


      11        because that's one of those things when you work


      12        it out and the constituents think that they cut


      13        a deal and it's going to be a certain height,


      14        it's going to be so far from the road, there's


      15        going to be so much foliage, it's going to be


      16        this and that, you know.  And if that doesn't


      17        come out that way, you are the one that lied to


      18        them, you're the one that misled them.


      19             So I can understand where Mr. Corrigan is


      20        coming through with this thing, and he wants to


      21        make sure that his constituents get what they


      22        agreed to.


      23             That all being said, I don't see anybody on


      24        the queue, so we are on the Webb amendment.


      25             All in favor say aye.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.


       3             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


       5        approved the amendment.


       6             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended.


       7             MR. JOOST:  Second.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill has been moved and


       9        seconded as amended.


      10             Any discussion on the bill?


      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the


      13        ballot.


      14             (Committee ballot opened.)


      15             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)


      16             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      17             MR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      18             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      19             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      20             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      22        the vote.


      23             (Committee ballot closed.)


      24             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nays.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        approved 2008-923 as amended.


       2             Now we're going back to which page,


       3        Mr. Corrigan?


       4             MR. CORRIGAN:  Mr. Chairman, page 4,


       5        item 7.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Committee members, page 4,


       7        item 7.  We have an appeal.


       8             That being the case, we are going to let


       9        the applicant come forward and give his song and


      10        dance on why he thinks he needs what he needs.


      11             Let's do the ex-parte before the appeal.


      12             Mr. Joost.


      13             MR. JOOST:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.


      14             I had ex-parte communications with


      15        Mr. Bajalia and Mr. Skinner on November 3rd at


      16        the location, and we discussed various aspects


      17        of the project.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Corrigan.


      19             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      20             I had ex-parte on this issue about a year


      21        and a half ago or maybe just over a year ago


      22        with both Mr. Bajalia and Riverside Avondale


      23        Preservation Organization that this area is --


      24        this appeal is in.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Webb.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. WEBB:  Likewise, Mr. Chairman, I


       2        declare ex-parte.  Approximately a month ago, I


       3        had a conversation with the applicant in this


       4        matter regarding the quality of the vinyl


       5        siding.


       6             Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Dr. Gaffney.


       8             DR. GAFFNEY:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.


       9             I wish to declare I had a meeting with the


      10        applicant and also with Riverside historic


      11        preservation, ex-parte communication.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman.


      13             MR. REDMAN:  Yes.  I'd like to declare


      14        ex-parte communication I had approximately a


      15        month ago with the applicant and residents of


      16        the Avondale association.


      17             Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  And I will also say that I


      19        met with the applicant, and I've also met with


      20        the -- some representatives of RAP on this issue


      21        as well.


      22             That all being said --


      23             Okay.  Mr. Yarborough.


      24             MR. YARBOROUGH:  I didn't know this was up


      25        tonight.  I should mention, though, I had





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        ex-parte with Mr. Ernie Isaac briefly about this


       2        over breakfast on Memorial Day, May 26th, about


       3        7:30 in the morning, just very briefly, but we


       4        did talk about it.


       5             Thank you.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.


       7             And, by the way, welcome.


       8             That all being said, Mr. Bajalia, we will


       9        let you give your side of the story, and then


      10        we'll let anybody else that came to speak to


      11        this get three minutes to speak, and then we'll


      12        let you rebut, and then we'll close the public


      13        hearing and we'll go on from there.


      14             That all being said, we will open the


      15        public hearing.


      16             Go ahead.


      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      19             My name is George Bajalia.  I live at 4638


      20        Swileon Lane in Jacksonville.


      21             I'm a Jacksonville native, have been -- as


      22        many of you are and love Jacksonville and like


      23        to do anything to help serve and improve


      24        Jacksonville.


      25             The building in question is in the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Riverside area, in between Park and King and


       2        St. Vincent's Hospital on King Street.  I've


       3        owned the building since January 1982, nearly


       4        27 years.  And I've lived on and off in the


       5        Riverside/Avondale area my -- for much of my


       6        life.


       7             And I do agree with the Historic


       8        Commission's desire to maintain the integrity of


       9        the area, yet have alternative views as to how


      10        to do that as many historic areas have done


      11        around the United States.


      12             The building -- you'll see -- the area may


      13        be difficult.  I don't know if you can see it,


      14        but I -- there's a handout that you have that


      15        shows the zoning -- Riverside Avenue zoning


      16        overlay map, which identifies where the building


      17        is, and the recent zoning overlay map that was


      18        done earlier this year -- which there was a


      19        town hall meeting with Mr. Corrigan, Mr. Kelly,


      20        and many others there -- that identifies the


      21        property in an office/commercial area, not in a


      22        residential historic area.


      23             As I said, I've owned it for a long time,


      24        since 1982.  It currently serves as lower price


      25        apartments.  And my desire is to upgrade the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        property to a -- more of a professional use,


       2        which is what the area has, and at a cost


       3        effective way.


       4             And the vinyl siding, the product has


       5        improved over the years.  I'm sure -- I believe


       6        there are some people here that could talk


       7        specifically about the product.  I have a couple


       8        of samples of the product that I'm happy to pass


       9        around.


      10             And it's a cost effective way to improve


      11        the building, to provide lower cost maintenance


      12        over the life of the product, over -- and also


      13        for me to convert -- to have enough funds to


      14        convert the inside of the building.


      15             As mentioned, it's located on King Street


      16        in a commercial area.  The building includes


      17        major additions.  I -- many years before I


      18        bought it, probably two-thirds of the exterior


      19        of the building was -- was modified.  The front


      20        area was modified, the back area was modified,


      21        and some of the side areas were modified.


      22             So the siding that we're referring to here,


      23        much of the siding is not original historic


      24        siding.  It's -- it's siding that was put in in


      25        the -- I don't even know when it was put in.  It





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        was before I owned it in 1982, but it's not


       2        original.


       3             In 2006, I made some improvements to the


       4        building because there was a lot of -- a lot of


       5        wood that was deteriorating.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  We can't see that from


       7        there.  You'll probably have to put it back on


       8        that easel.


       9             Thank you, sir.


      10             MR. BAJALIA:  The top photos, which are


      11        also, I believe, in your slide -- probably


      12        slide 2.  Slide 2, 9, and 10 is the building


      13        before I made the improvements.  You'll see that


      14        there's a lot of the wood deteriorating and the


      15        soffits and the fascia board and some of the


      16        siding.


      17             And I made a number of improvements to the


      18        building.  And in 2006, early 2007, the


      19        bottom -- the bottom three photos are the result


      20        of those improvements, which basically is the


      21        best you get with the improvements that I made.


      22             And I've researched the product and found


      23        that the product and the installation of the


      24        product is very high standards, much higher


      25        standards than in 1998 when the rules changed





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        and did not allow vinyl siding.  I think the


       2        rules changed here in 1998, and the product has


       3        improved significantly since then.


       4             I believe all of you many have received a


       5        package from the Vinyl Siding Institute, which


       6        I've passed around some information as well.


       7             The improvements I'm requesting is a triple


       8        vinyl clapboard, which meets high quality


       9        standards.  And here's an example (indicating).


      10        I'll pass around an example of what these look


      11        like.


      12             Once you see that, you'll see that the


      13        vinyl siding -- the manufacturers have put a lot


      14        of research and development and a lot of work


      15        into trying to provide siding that meets many


      16        historical standards.


      17             There's also trim and -- trim and millwork


      18        that you also have in your handouts that also


      19        improve the architectural integrity of the area,


      20        which I intend to do as well.


      21             Nearly all of King Street, from College


      22        Street to the river, are commercial buildings.


      23        And this is one of the only buildings that's not


      24        commercial, and I intend to -- and it's


      25        currently zoned for office or residential





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        multifamily, and I intend to eventually convert


       2        it to a professional use.


       3             Approximately eight buildings within two


       4        blocks of my building have vinyl or aluminum


       5        siding on it.  You can refer to slides 5 through


       6        8 in the PowerPoint presentation that you have.


       7        And that was all done before 1998, before the


       8        guidelines came into effect.


       9             And as you can see in almost every case,


      10        the -- ten years later the product is in good


      11        condition.  And if you compare it to my


      12        building, it's in much better condition than my


      13        fooling with the siding that's deteriorating.


      14             I note -- I'd like to note slide 4 in your


      15        handout shows the exterior consistencies which


      16        is the reason for my request.  Since most of the


      17        building is not a historic structure, the


      18        product, the wood does not maintain very well,


      19        and I'll have to continually repair and replace


      20        the siding as I upgrade the building


      21        continually, probably every three to five years,


      22        which is really not cost effective.


      23             I'm almost done.


      24             You'll see on this -- on this board and


      25        also in -- I believe it's slide -- slides both





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        9 and 10.  I compare a rendering of the building


       2        with siding only on it, with no architectural


       3        trim, to the building as it was before the


       4        improvements and the building as it is today.


       5        And you can see that, at least in my view, it's


       6        a much better looking product and probably more


       7        particularly meets the areas -- of upgrading the


       8        area and, once again, cost effective to make


       9        sense for me to do other things with the


      10        property.


      11             One of the other things I've researched


      12        is -- all the buildings here (indicating) and


      13        maybe one or two others.  I compared the value


      14        of those buildings to the value of buildings


      15        within two or three buildings of similar size


      16        with wood siding.  And at least half the cases,


      17        the value of the building with vinyl or aluminum


      18        siding is greater than the value of the building


      19        with wood siding.


      20             And I have a handout, if you're interested,


      21        to show you each of those buildings and the


      22        value.


      23             As I mentioned, the cost of this product is


      24        much less than just repair and replacing certain


      25        pieces of the wood siding.  And what I estimate





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        from some contractors' estimates, it's half the


       2        cost.


       3             Today, if I were to repair and replace some


       4        of the bad wood on the building versus apply a


       5        quality vinyl siding product with architectural


       6        features, it will probably be -- it will be


       7        approximately one half the cost of the repair


       8        and replacement of wood, which I'll have to do


       9        in three to five years as well.


      10             I appreciate your time and you considering


      11        my request, and be happy to answer any questions


      12        at any point in time.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.


      14             Do we have any public comment cards on


      15        this?


      16             MS. ALLEN:  (Tenders speaker cards.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Our first speaker is


      18        Kay Ehas, followed by Greg Thomas.


      19             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      21             My name is Kay Ehas.  I reside at 2322


      22        Dellwood Avenue, Jacksonville, Florida 32204.


      23             I'm also the chair of the board of


      24        Riverside Avondale Preservation.


      25             You know, adding vinyl siding to a historic





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        structure is one of the instigating factors for


       2        the neighborhood movement to become a historic


       3        district, and I would have to disagree that the


       4        majority of the wood on Mr. Bajalia's property


       5        is the original wood.


       6             I'd like to speak briefly on our main point


       7        in opposing the vinyl siding, and then the next


       8        four speakers will elaborate on those points.


       9             Vinyl is actually an inferior product that


      10        results in damage to the historic structure.


      11        The long-term cost of vinyl is actually greater


      12        than the long-term cost of wood siding.


      13             Allowing vinyl in this house means you'll


      14        have to approve vinyl for any structure within


      15        our historic -- city's historic district,


      16        effectively destroying the historic character,


      17        the economic value, and the cultural legacy


      18        these districts give to the city of


      19        Jacksonville.


      20             And if you grant the appeal, it will be the


      21        first time, to our knowledge, that vinyl siding


      22        will be allowed in any historic district in the


      23        United States where municipalities have adopted


      24        the Secretary of Interior's guidelines as we did


      25        in 1998.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             In fact, the historic districts Mr. Bajalia


       2        cites in his materials as allowing vinyl siding


       3        do not allow vinyl siding.  That's a fact.  It's


       4        been -- staff has researched it, we've


       5        researched it.


       6             Various Florida courts, as well as the


       7        United States Supreme Court, have upheld the


       8        decisions of Historic Planning Commissions in


       9        similar cases to this.  At -- also the structure


      10        in question, if renovated appropriately,


      11        qualifies for a property tax exemption and for


      12        tax credits.


      13             Thank you for your time.


      14             And Greg Thomas is next.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Ehas.


      16             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      17             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      18             I'm Greg Thomas.  I reside at 2818 Lydia


      19        Street in Riverside.


      20             I am an architectural project manager with


      21        Richard Skinner & Associates, architects, and I


      22        serve as the chair of RAP's Design Review


      23        Committee.


      24             Prior to moving to Jacksonville in 2006, I


      25        worked in an architectural preservation firm in





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        New Orleans for over ten years, and I feel that


       2        I'm fairly qualified to speak on the issue


       3        before us.


       4             Before I make a few points, did everyone


       5        receive a packet from our organization?


       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (Nod heads.)


       7             MR. THOMAS:  Because the rest of us will be


       8        referring to that packet as we speak.


       9             I'd like to briefly point out the physical


      10        harm that the vinyl siding would do to this or


      11        any historic building.


      12             Generally speaking, there are two types of


      13        physical damage that will occur.  The first and


      14        the obvious one is the structural harm in the


      15        form of water damage, rot, termites, and mold.


      16        And the second type, which is just as important


      17        from a preservation standpoint, is the damage


      18        that will be done to the physical


      19        characteristics of the building that make it a


      20        contributing structure to the historic landscape


      21        of our city.


      22             To the structural damage, it's just poor


      23        building practice, poor building science to put


      24        vinyl siding and soffits over an existing


      25        building.  The construction technology that was





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        available in the early 20th century required


       2        that a wood structure be able to breathe, not


       3        only through its windows and doors, but through


       4        the walls, the eaves, and maintained a moisture


       5        content that was healthy.  It did not promote


       6        decay, provide breeding grounds for mold or


       7        offer food for wood-destroying insects.


       8             Vinyl siding by design, despite all the


       9        improvements that have been made over the years,


      10        lets rain and moisture underneath it and it


      11        keeps it there.


      12             Its application introduces thousand of nail


      13        holes into the existing wood siding and trim


      14        that it would be applied over, and yet it can't


      15        be caulked or waterproofed because it is so


      16        thin.  It leaves the job of moisture control to


      17        the surface underneath it that's now full of


      18        thousands of nail holes, which, you know, of


      19        course, doesn't really make a lot of sense.


      20             The wood structure can't breathe the way it


      21        was meant to, and its integrity as a weather


      22        barrier is compromised.  The problems start


      23        arising, sick building syndrome, et cetera.


      24             As to the aesthetic damage, it's not about


      25        whether we like the look of vinyl or not.  These





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        standards place value on the physical


       2        characteristics and aesthetic features which


       3        make the building a document of its place and


       4        time in history and worthy of preserving.  And


       5        by applying this vinyl, those features would be


       6        irreputably lost.


       7             And if you refer to page 6 of the handout,


       8        we have a good example of the three buildings in


       9        a row.  Mr. Bajalia is in the middle.  And you


      10        can see that, even though it's dilapidated,


      11        those features are still in intact.  We've got


      12        beaded board soffits, eave brackets, the fine


      13        wood lap siding, the routed corner boards, just


      14        to name a few.


      15             And the building on the right, which has


      16        been covered in vinyl, all of those features are


      17        lost and cannot be regained.


      18             And those are the things that would help


      19        qualify this building for tax credit and also


      20        make it a valuable record of what's in the city.


      21             Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      23             The next speaker is Jeffrey Graf, followed


      24        by Jennifer.


      25             (Audience member approaches the podium.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Holt.


       2             Hold on just a second.


       3             Mr. Holt.


       4             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


       5             I'd just like to ask a question.  I guess


       6        the last speaker would be as good a person as


       7        any judging from your background to ask this


       8        question.


       9             What exactly would you guys feel like would


      10        meet the requirements that you would recommend?


      11             And I'd also like to ask Mr. Bajalia what


      12        the cost difference would be between what you


      13        folks would expect to meet the requirements and


      14        what he's proposing, what the cost difference


      15        would be.


      16             Is that a question that you can answer?


      17             MR. THOMAS:  We recommend like material,


      18        meaning wood.


      19             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  And do you guys have an


      20        idea of what the cost difference would be


      21        between that and what he's proposing?


      22             MR. THOMAS:  We're going to get into that a


      23        little bit, but at this point, I don't think --


      24             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Well, if you're going to


      25        answer the question later, that's fine.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. THOMAS:  -- we have enough information


       2        to give you an apples-to-apples comparison.


       3             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Mr. Bajalia, could you


       4        come up and answer that question for me first so


       5        that later when they answer it, I'll have a


       6        background.


       7             (Mr. Bajalia approaches the podium.)


       8             MR. BAJALIA:  I had an estimate of the --


       9        of siding replacement and repair of the bad wood


      10        on the building and windows of $50,000 compared


      11        to siding and windows of $22,000.


      12             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Thank you.


      13             I'll just wait to hear their answer later.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead, sir.


      15             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Okay.  Mr. Chairman,


      16        Jeffrey Graf, 1873 Greenwood Avenue,


      17        Jacksonville.


      18             I am the vice chair of Riverside Avondale


      19        Preservation.


      20             If you have your handout with you, I'd like


      21        to have you look at the bottom of page 13 where


      22        there is a quote -- excuse me while I put my arm


      23        extenders on here -- from a Daniel Buckles


      24        (phonetic), who says vinyl siding does not


      25        increase the value of one's home and in some





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        cases can actually diminish its value if the


       2        home has historic value as located in a nicer


       3        neighborhood.


       4             In fact, this, as everybody knows, is


       5        located in a historic district.  And the issues


       6        and citings that we mentioned from JHPC earlier


       7        on in our package, if held up, which we're


       8        advocating, would, in fact, protect this


       9        building because it would not allow the vinyl


      10        siding.


      11             And Mr. Bajalia talks about his quotes.  If


      12        you look at the bottom of page 14, you can see


      13        his numbers are at least what we had.


      14             Moving on to page 15, some examples of his


      15        vinyl pricing quote versus a wood price, about


      16        the fifth bullet point down on the vinyl price,


      17        we noticed in looking at his estimates that


      18        nothing that was on the wood estimates was


      19        included in the vinyl price.


      20             Now, we know there's certainly wood items


      21        that wouldn't be, but there are items that


      22        should be on both sides of the ledger, if you


      23        will.


      24             If you look at the wood price side of his


      25        cost estimate, about five lines down, you see





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        that the wood price includes stucco repairs and


       2        foundation work.  Two more lines down from that,


       3        it includes electrical work and interior


       4        repairs.  Two more lines down from that, it


       5        includes two rear windows.


       6             So as best we can tell from reading the


       7        information that was supplied to us, they're not


       8        apples-to-apples quotes.


       9             Direct your attention to the top of page 16


      10        where it's quoted a study from Tufts University,


      11        vinyl siding is now the most common siding


      12        material for low- to moderate-priced housing.


      13        If that's what it is, it is certainly not an


      14        upgrade for a building in the historic


      15        district.


      16             It goes on to talk about vinyl siding being


      17        maintenance-free.  It certainly is not.  After


      18        ten or so years, it's going to need painting.


      19        It will mold just like paint does.


      20             But it has another interesting side


      21        effect.  It if catches fire, the fumes are


      22        toxic, unlike wood.


      23             Moving on to page 18, a Consumer Reports


      24        study says over a cost-per-year basis, vinyl is


      25        not the cheapest either, among it, the higher,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        low-quality options.  Vinyl siding, according to


       2        what we've been able to tell, has a life span


       3        expectance of about half of what wood is.


       4             Mr. Bajalia bought this building in 1982


       5        when it was 67 years old.  He's owned it for 26


       6        or 27 years.  This building is 93 or 94 years


       7        old now.  And even given the lack of care that


       8        it's been given, this building is still


       9        standing.


      10             So, in closing, I don't think it's a quick


      11        fix.  It has a very negative short- and


      12        long-term effects, not only on the structure but


      13        the district and Jacksonville's city heritage.


      14             And, with that, I'd like to turn it over to


      15        Jennifer Mansfield.


      16             Thank you very much.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      18             Jennifer, you're up next, followed by


      19        Carmen Godwin.


      20             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      21             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.


      22             I'm Jennifer Mansfield.  I live at 2043


      23        College Street.


      24             One of Mr. Bajalia's arguments that we've


      25        become aware of is that the housing district was





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        established after he already owned the


       2        property.  That's, quite frankly, irrelevant.


       3        It was passed through a democratic process and


       4        is an ordinance of Jacksonville.  And,


       5        therefore, it applies to everyone.


       6             Courts, including the United States Supreme


       7        Court, have upheld historic district regulations


       8        and their application, even in the face of


       9        having to spend money in order to meet those


      10        standards.


      11             The ordinance must be applied evenly to


      12        everyone, and what applies to everyone else in


      13        the Riverside Avondale historic district must


      14        apply to Mr. Bajalia equally.


      15             The courts that have upheld similar design


      16        regulations, those regulations, just like


      17        Jacksonville, were based on the Department of


      18        Interior's design guidelines and despite the


      19        fact that -- some cost to the property owner in


      20        the district.


      21             Although the LUZ Committee's review is


      22        de novo, the LUZ is still required to apply


      23        those design regulations, just as the


      24        Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission


      25        did.  It does not matter what use the building





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        has in the district.  All buildings within the


       2        district have to have -- must comply with the


       3        design regulations.


       4             In essence, what Mr. Bajalia is asking is


       5        to be treated differently than anyone else


       6        because the factors that he's pointed out --


       7        such as he thinks that it looks better and the


       8        cost, value of his property, value of vinyl


       9        properties -- really are not considerations


      10        under the design regulations.  He's essentially


      11        asking you to ignore the design regulations.


      12             Approving vinyl siding would eviscerate the


      13        historic district ordinance and design


      14        regulations because, again, what applies to


      15        Mr. Bajalia also applies to everyone else in the


      16        district.  This is precedent setting.


      17             So granting this appeal, LUZ would be


      18        making a finding under the design regulations


      19        that vinyl is an acceptable alternative to wood


      20        siding, and thus everyone else who wants to do


      21        it would be able to do it because of that


      22        finding.


      23             This would be precedent setting, even in


      24        its own right.  It's even more so though because


      25        LUZ has previously denied an appeal of a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        homeowner in a historic district for vinyl


       2        siding.


       3             It's also our understanding that during the


       4        Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission's


       5        staff investigation of this, that not only did


       6        none of the historic districts mentioned by


       7        Mr. Bajalia approve of vinyl siding, but some


       8        actually laughed when asked the question.


       9             And so that is a demonstration of how


      10        farfetched and beyond the design regulations


      11        that this request is.


      12             Thank you.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      14             Carmen.


      15             (Ms. Godwin approaches the podium.)


      16             MS. GODWIN:  Thank you.


      17             Carmen Godwin, 2623 Herschel Street.


      18             Thank you.


      19             I'm the executive director of Riverside


      20        Avondale Preservation, and you've heard a lot of


      21        evidence tonight about why historic districts


      22        throughout the country do not allow vinyl


      23        siding.


      24             We ask that you trust those who are


      25        appointed by the City to make educated decisions





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        on historic landmarks and historic structures.


       2             The mayor appoints seven experts in various


       3        disciplines -- architecture, construction,


       4        preservation and law -- to serve on the


       5        Jacksonville Historic Commission.  These experts


       6        study the design regulations for the national


       7        historic districts of both Springfield and


       8        Riverside.  They understand these historic


       9        neighborhoods and the laws that govern


      10        alterations to property within those


      11        neighborhoods.


      12             While the group is not overly concerned


      13        with property values, their decisions help


      14        maintain and grow those values because they help


      15        retain the historic character of the


      16        neighborhoods and the specific building features


      17        of the unique structures within them.


      18             This seven-member panel of experts has


      19        never once approved the use of vinyl siding as a


      20        replacement material on a historic structure in


      21        either of our two historic districts, whether


      22        commercial, residential, office, whatever the


      23        use.


      24             And why do you think that is?  It's because


      25        they know and understand the Secretary of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Interior Standards, they know and understand the


       2        law contained with the design regulations and


       3        all the details within those regulations, and


       4        they know the irreparable damage that vinyl


       5        siding causes, not only to the wood structure,


       6        but to every single detail and unique feature on


       7        those structures which are removed and destroyed


       8        when vinyl siding is put on them.


       9             I know that tonight you've heard talk of


      10        precedence, and we really feel -- and I've


      11        spoken with SPAR as well -- that this is one


      12        precedent that neither one of our historic


      13        districts would be able to live with.


      14             Jacksonville's historic neighborhoods are


      15        original suburbs to downtown, and we want to


      16        maintain them.  They help make our city livable


      17        and interesting among other Florida cities.


      18             So please help us to maintain that historic


      19        character and please uphold the decision of the


      20        Historic Commission.


      21             Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      23             The next one is Joann Purdie.


      24             Does not wish to speak.


      25             Bob Chamberlain, followed by William -- and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        I'm going the butcher your last name --


       2        Leuthold.


       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, name and address for


       5        the record, and you have three minutes to


       6        speak.


       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Bob


       8        Chamberlain.  I live at 4733 Devon Lane,


       9        Jacksonville, but I work at 1234 King Street at


      10        First Guaranty Bank.


      11             It's important in the Riverside Avondale


      12        area that we maintain the integrity of the


      13        housing and also of our commercial areas.  We


      14        have, today, several buildings being remodeled


      15        along King Street, along Park Street, and in


      16        other areas, and they are fulfilling that by


      17        staying to the standards that are set by the


      18        historic district.


      19             I recommend that you deny the request of


      20        the applicant.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      22             William, followed by Doug Coleman.


      23             As I call your name, make your way down


      24        front, please.


      25             (Mr. Leuthold approaches the podium.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. LEUTHOLD:  My name is William Leuthold.


       2             I have just finished serving six years in


       3        the Jacksonville Historic Preservation


       4        Commission.


       5             I'm an architect in Jacksonville, have my


       6        office at 2742 Herschel Street, right around the


       7        corner from the subject property here.


       8             In serving on the commission, you probably


       9        have my comments as part of the minutes of the


      10        meeting in which it was stated the same thing


      11        that's been stated by the experts here today


      12        already and that the use of vinyl siding is


      13        never allowed in historic districts, the reason


      14        being that -- mostly that it destroys the fabric


      15        and the character of that individual structure.


      16             When you use vinyl siding on a structure,


      17        you end up -- can I hand out a couple of


      18        pass-outs?


      19             I just took one photograph that has a


      20        vinyl-sided structure on the top and a restored


      21        structure on the bottom.


      22             One of the instances -- one of the great


      23        things about historic architecture, the old


      24        structures that were build in town, is that they


      25        were -- they use simple detailing of quality





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        materials.  Vinyl is the opposite of that.


       2        Vinyl is a cheap material that is really more


       3        appropriate on a low-income house or even a


       4        mobile home.  Most of the mobile homes you saw


       5        for years had vinyl siding attached to them, had


       6        vinyl soffits.  What they were covering up was


       7        junky construction.


       8             But what happens here, if you allowed vinyl


       9        siding, would be you would start to cover up


      10        quality materials that were installed by


      11        craftsmen.  In doing that, you're taking away


      12        the character of that house.


      13             There are certain features of a house that


      14        need to be looked at.  In looking at this, the


      15        bottom one, you can see it's simple horizontal


      16        siding.  It meets a solid wood casing around the


      17        window.  There's a little bit of detail on the


      18        top of the window that's a little head trim


      19        there.  When you go with the vinyl, you start


      20        taking that off or you cover it up and destroy


      21        it by taking it off.


      22             The materials are not installed in a


      23        historic way.  When they put the trim on it,


      24        it's trim that's designed to mechanically fasten


      25        these items.  These lesser expensive, these





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        lower quality pieces.  That's very different


       2        from the way they put together the old houses,


       3        and part of that craftsmanship is very important


       4        in these structures.


       5             You also lose the frieze board, you lose


       6        trim under the soffits if you put the vinyl in


       7        the -- put the soffit in the cornice, and you're


       8        changing the direction of the material.  You're


       9        putting in a vented or a very cheap-looking


      10        product and, again, covering up quality


      11        materials that were installed by craftsmen at


      12        the time.


      13             I'll just pass this one more out.  This is


      14        one sheet.  I should have brought more, but I'll


      15        describe it first.  This is his building


      16        (indicating), and this is a building that was


      17        restored in the neighborhood (indicating).


      18             And just to show you the difference that


      19        you can get, in the restoration of this, the


      20        exterior -- there wasn't more than $30,000 that


      21        was spent on that, but -- and it could easily be


      22        done.


      23             He quoted a price, and in that price it --


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, your three minutes are


      25        up.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. LEUTHOLD:  Just remember in his price


       2        that that was to put cheap materials on there,


       3        not quality materials, and it hurts the historic


       4        structure.


       5             Thank you very much.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       7             Doug Coleman.


       8             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'll waive.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      10             Larry Craven.


      11             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Waive.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      13             Your wife.


      14             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I waive.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      16             Michael O'Connell.


      17             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I waive.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      19             Sally Robson.


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She's left.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let the record show that she


      22        was opposed to this as well.


      23             Bud Paka.


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Opposed.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Let the record show he was opposed.


       2             Kevin Kuzel.


       3             Kevin is followed by Wayne Wood.


       4             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  I do appreciate all you guys


       6        waiving and not being duplicative.  That makes


       7        this process a lot easier.


       8             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       9             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Kevin Kuzel.  I live at


      10        1130 Acosta Street in Riverside, and that's only


      11        two blocks away from 1609 King.


      12             I've been in Riverside for eight-and-a-half


      13        years, and I made some notes over here just to


      14        kind of sort out what had been said and things I


      15        don't need to cover.


      16             And one of the things I definitely want to


      17        say is my house has had wood siding on it for


      18        93 years, and I don't think there's any vinyl


      19        siding that's going to last anywhere near that


      20        long.


      21             Furthermore, I've got a study here, and


      22        this is from the Marshall -- or the Haag


      23        Engineering Company out of Dallas, Texas.  This


      24        is one -- if you go to the Internet, this is one


      25        of many, many studies that has been done by FEMA





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        and other engineering firms as well as other


       2        government organizations that have shown what


       3        hurricane damage and tropical storm damage can


       4        do to structures that are clad in vinyl siding,


       5        and every study shows the vinyl siding is


       6        substandard compared to wood.


       7             And we're in a period right now where we've


       8        got more hurricanes, more tropical storms than


       9        normal, so this is not -- this is not a good


      10        answer for storms.


      11             Finally, you know, we all in the historic


      12        district have to maintain the architectural


      13        integrity and heritage of the area, all the


      14        property owners.  These rules and laws apply to


      15        everybody, and I don't think that they should be


      16        changed for anybody.


      17             Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      19             Wayne Wood, followed by Louise De Spain.


      20             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      21             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Wayne Wood.  I


      22        live at 2821 Riverside Avenue, about


      23        four-and-a-half blocks from this site.


      24             And just by way of qualification, I'm the


      25        author of several books on Jacksonville





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        architecture, including Jacksonville


       2        Architectural Heritage, which may give some


       3        credence to what I have to say.


       4             You've heard some very good details that I


       5        think speak very straightforward to why this


       6        should be defeated.  I'd like to take a little


       7        bit bigger picture.


       8             Riverside Avondale is one of the largest


       9        historic districts in the south, perhaps even in


      10        the United States.  It is designated a historic


      11        district by the Secretary of State as a resource


      12        and a heritage site for the United States of


      13        America.


      14             As a separate level, the City of


      15        Jacksonville has voted and set up legislation


      16        that recognizes Riverside and Avondale as a


      17        historic district, and the Historic Preservation


      18        Commission is our expert that tells us how to


      19        safeguard that entity.


      20             Now, none of you are architectural


      21        historians and so you have to rely on the beauty


      22        of consolidation wisdom in appointing


      23        commissions to have expertise in this, and the


      24        preservation commission has said firmly that


      25        allowing vinyl siding on a building is against





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        the whole principle of the historic district.


       2             Historic districts give value to the city


       3        to save our unique resources.  And, you know,


       4        you can say, well, what is it if just one


       5        building gets messed up and is taken out of the


       6        historic district's character?  Well, that's the


       7        way we lose historic districts.


       8             I've been working in historic preservation


       9        in Jacksonville for 35 years, and I've seen one


      10        house go down, be demolished, and the next house


      11        go down, and then the whole neighborhood goes


      12        down.


      13             The whole purpose of the historic district


      14        legislation is to protect this very fragile


      15        resource.  And it is fragile.  And if you allow


      16        one building to supersede the guidelines that


      17        have been set up, have been voted on, they've


      18        been set up by the City and the United States


      19        government, which in the historic preservation


      20        guidelines is the Secretary of Interior, vinyl


      21        siding is not allowed for a very good purpose.


      22             Then you will have allowed a toehold into


      23        the deterioration of the whole historic


      24        district.


      25             It is your job -- I hope you feel it is to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        help protect these valuable resources, and to


       2        the good of the community sometimes has to


       3        supersede the wishes for shortcuts by


       4        individuals that would deteriorate the entire


       5        neighborhood.


       6             We're living in a world that is so


       7        artificial and is plasticized, and here we have


       8        a building in a historic district that's the


       9        real deal, it's made of wood.  There are


      10        buildings in Duval County that are over


      11        200 years old made of wood.  That building will


      12        be there a long, long time if it's maintained.


      13        And your vote against this will ensure that


      14        there is no chip in the armor of us trying so


      15        very hard to preserve what is valuable to this


      16        city, and it has been legislated and appointed


      17        as such, and it is our job to try to keep it so


      18        that generations from now our historic district


      19        will still be intact.


      20             Thank you.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      22             Ms. De Spain.


      23             (Ms. De Spain approaches the podium.)


      24             MS. DE SPAIN:  Louise De Spain.


      25             Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             I'm here representing SPAR and the


       2        Springfield historic district.  I just want to


       3        go on record that we also oppose the use of


       4        vinyl siding in our district as well.  That is


       5        officially representing SPAR.


       6             From the standpoint of a private citizen


       7        who had to take aluminum siding, vinyl siding


       8        off of a house that somebody had put on illegal,


       9        a house that I now own, the house is beautiful.


      10        It covered up all the beautiful historic


      11        character of my house because the siding was


      12        used.


      13             And so I would ask you to please oppose


      14        this because it doesn't do anything for the


      15        historic value of the house, and I had to pay to


      16        have it taken off.


      17             Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      19             That's all the speaker cards I have.  If


      20        there's nobody else that wants to speak --


      21             Mr. Bajalia, I will give you five minutes


      22        to rebut, and then we'll close the public


      23        hearing.


      24             (Mr. Bajalia approaches the podium.)


      25             MR. BAJALIA:  Five minutes.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Well, I'd like to thank you again and


       2        appreciate the passion of all the folks from the


       3        Riverside Avondale Preservation area.


       4             I'd like to say that I represent the silent


       5        majority.


       6             A couple of things that I want to point


       7        out:  First of all, vinyl siding is the number


       8        one siding used on homes in the United States,


       9        and I suspect that probably 75 to 80 percent of


      10        the people in this room, including all of you,


      11        have some aspect of vinyl in your home, whether


      12        it's soffit, fascia, or the actual siding.


      13             And so I -- while I do respect the past, I


      14        don't live in the past, and I don't believe that


      15        vinyl siding is low to moderate -- for low- to


      16        moderate-priced homes.  I don't have a low- to


      17        moderate-priced home and I have vinyl soffits


      18        and vinyl fascia board on stucco in my home.


      19             Number two, one of the speakers referred


      20        to -- that the siding was the original


      21        structure.  I'll point out, this -- this front


      22        area here (indicating) was an addition to the


      23        home and there's an equal addition in the back


      24        of the building as well as another -- another


      25        modification on this northwest side of the house





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        which is not the original structure, could not


       2        possibly be the original structure because there


       3        were major additions to the home.


       4             And so I'd like to point that out.


       5             I'm going to jump through some of these


       6        things.


       7             I don't think the hurricane argument was


       8        relevant because we're going to apply it to the


       9        existing structure.  We're not going to replace


      10        the existing structure.  And this is not a


      11        mobile home, which I think is what the


      12        implication was.


      13             First time -- I do understand it's the


      14        first time it's done.  And I, once again,


      15        respect the fact that the -- all these people


      16        stood up and agreed to -- or stating the case to


      17        keep it as it is and therefore spend my money.


      18             I don't -- I haven't found a price to their


      19        price.  I'm very interested in a grant to do


      20        what they've asked me to do.  But it just


      21        doesn't make economic sense, and I'm a business


      22        person, an investment person, and so it just


      23        doesn't make economic sense what they're


      24        saying.  And, therefore, if a grant is available


      25        to me, I'll take it and be happy to consider





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        what they're asking for.


       2             As far as other locations not allowing


       3        vinyl siding, I disagree with that, completely


       4        disagree with that, and will provide you a


       5        handout of the cities that have allowed siding


       6        in homes in historic areas.


       7             With respect to the value position that it


       8        impacts or negatively impacts the value of the


       9        house, I'll provide you another handout that


      10        shows the houses with vinyl siding on it that --


      11        and the comparable homes nearby that are either


      12        equally -- some are a little -- some of them are


      13        higher priced, some are lower priced, but for


      14        the most part there's -- the majority of them,


      15        the value of the vinyl or aluminum is higher.


      16             And when I speak of value, I speak of value


      17        as provided by the City of Jacksonville property


      18        appraiser's office, the market value.


      19             Okay.  Other cities that are not on that


      20        list are Pinehurst, North Carolina, which I


      21        believe you did get something from the


      22        Vinyl Siding Institute on; and Buckhead, in


      23        Atlanta, Georgia.


      24             With respect to the precedent, in all due


      25        respect, you know, times do change.  I mean,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        tomorrow we're going to have an election and


       2        we're going to have a precedent-setting election


       3        on -- whether it be a vice president or a


       4        presidential candidate.


       5             So it's just -- it's just -- if something


       6        makes sense and it's happening all throughout


       7        the country, just because one building that's in


       8        a commercial area that's not in a residential


       9        historic area as appointed in the zoning overlay


      10        map, to me, it doesn't make sense that this is


      11        not being considered since it is in a commercial


      12        area, and that I could be, you know, hamstrung


      13        to spend any money on the property.  And,


      14        therefore, it's going to look more like this


      15        (indicating) in the next three to five years.


      16             Once again, very interested in a grant if


      17        that's available to me.


      18             I disagree completely with the -- for the


      19        point that it's toxic.  Once again, number one


      20        siding product in the United States.  And,


      21        therefore, if it is toxic, every one of us ought


      22        to be considered with that.


      23             One last point.  The guidelines -- if


      24        that's okay, Mr. Chairman.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. BAJALIA:  I was not disagreeing that I


       2        should have a precedent because I've owned the


       3        building since the guidelines.  What I'm saying


       4        is the buildings here (indicating) are each


       5        ten years -- at least ten years old with a


       6        product that's -- a siding product that's on


       7        there, except for my rendering here, and they


       8        all look much better than my building.


       9             Once again, thank you for your time and


      10        everybody's time tonight.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      12             We will close the public hearing.


      13             And, Mr. Bajalia, I'll tell you, we allow


      14        vinyl siding at the beach if you want to move


      15        your house out there.


      16             MR. BAJALIA:  I know you do.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let's go with -- let's go


      18        with staff.


      19             MR. TEAL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      20             Through the Chair to the committee, this is


      21        an application that was actually three items.


      22        Mr. Bajalia got two out of the three that he


      23        wanted as it relates to this structure.  The


      24        third item was the vinyl siding, which you've


      25        heard about today.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             And, obviously, you've heard from


       2        representatives of both historic districts and


       3        the impact that the granting of this application


       4        would have on the contributing structures in


       5        those historic districts.


       6             Also, you've heard that the primary reason


       7        for the formation -- and I'm sure Councilmember


       8        Corrigan can testify to that since he was one of


       9        the driving forces behind the creation of the


      10        Riverside Avondale historic district -- was the


      11        application of vinyl siding to structures such


      12        as these.


      13             Mr. Bajalia pointed out several examples of


      14        where vinyl siding had been applied to


      15        structures, and he admits that those all


      16        occurred prior to the 1998 formation of the


      17        Riverside Avondale historic district.  There has


      18        never been an application approved in either


      19        historic district since their creation that


      20        would approve what he is proposing.


      21             In fact, of the 32 applications that were


      22        processed for certificates of appropriateness,


      23        eleven of those were to actually remove the


      24        vinyl siding, six of them were to repair the


      25        vinyl siding, and the remainder were to try and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        get vinyl siding, which were all universally


       2        denied by the commission.


       3             Not only that, the City Council has had one


       4        appeal of a vinyl siding in 2000, and that


       5        appeal was upheld.  The commission's decision to


       6        deny the vinyl siding was upheld by the City


       7        Council.


       8             So the precedent before the City of


       9        Jacksonville has been to deny vinyl siding for


      10        use in the historic districts.


      11             Mr. Bajalia made a lot of comments about


      12        how the folks were seemingly wanting to spend


      13        his money and that he was seeking a grant.  It's


      14        funny that he would mention that because, in


      15        essence, what the reason, in large part, for why


      16        we're here is because he hasn't spent any


      17        money.  He's owned the building for 27 years,


      18        and the reason it's in the condition that it's


      19        in is because of deferred maintenance of


      20        patchwork repairs and of Band-Aid applications


      21        since he's owned it.


      22             So, in large part, the 25 -- the 27 years


      23        that he's owned this building, the reason why


      24        it's in such bad shape is because of the fact


      25        that he himself hasn't put any money into it in





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        order to upkeep the building.


       2             He brought up the fact that all of these


       3        governments, local governments have -- have


       4        approved this vinyl siding for use in their


       5        historic districts.  Well, it's interesting that


       6        he would bring that up because staff called


       7        every single one of those local governments, if


       8        they exist.  Three or four of them don't even


       9        exist.  But every single one of them,


      10        universally, 100 percent, do not allow vinyl


      11        siding in the historic districts in the manner


      12        in which he's proposing it.


      13             So to make the argument that local


      14        governments across the country are using vinyl


      15        siding, flying in the face of Secretary of


      16        Interior reports that they've done of all of the


      17        reports, as testified by one of the speakers


      18        today as a historic preservationist/architect in


      19        New Orleans, flies in the face of reality in


      20        that none of these would have approved the vinyl


      21        siding as he's alleging.


      22             He said the rules changed in 1998.  The


      23        rules didn't change; they just became rules.


      24        That's when the historic district was formed.


      25        Every property owner was allowed to vote on the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        creation of the historic district.  It was a


       2        democratic process.  The ownership of all the


       3        properties overwhelmingly supported the


       4        formation of the historic district.


       5             Not only that, but the University of


       6        Florida actually conducted an economic analysis


       7        study in 2006 as to what's the economic reality


       8        of creation of a historic district and


       9        maintaining of a historic district across the


      10        state of Florida.


      11             Universally they have found that where


      12        historic districts were created and property


      13        regulations were in place to maintain the


      14        historic characteristics of those neighborhoods,


      15        every single one of those -- every single one of


      16        those entities, the historic districts have


      17        shown an increase in property value.


      18             So property values have increased because


      19        of the fact that historic districts are in place


      20        and because property owners can know what they


      21        can expect from their neighbors in that they


      22        know what's going to be allowed and what's not


      23        going to be allowed.


      24             Any vinyl siding, again, that's existing in


      25        historic districts was either done illegally or





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        was done prior to the formation of those


       2        historic districts.  There's never been an


       3        application approved to do that.


       4             HPC has never approved -- the Historic


       5        Preservation Commission has never approved the


       6        use of vinyl siding to replace wood siding.


       7             And he made the argument that including


       8        vinyl siding makes it cheaper to maintain and


       9        makes it more durable.  You've heard a lot of


      10        testimony tonight about how that's just simply


      11        not true, and I think the clearest example of


      12        that is the gentleman who spoke that said he's


      13        got the same wood siding on his house for


      14        96 years.


      15             So to say that vinyl siding is easier to


      16        maintain, it's more durable, it's longer lasting


      17        is not proven by, you know, the reality that


      18        exists in historic districts.


      19             Finally, he points out that because he is a


      20        commercial structure that -- or he wants to


      21        become a commercial structure that he ought to


      22        be allowed to do this.  I would point out that


      23        if he does do this with a commercial use, he is


      24        going to be giving up federal tax credits and


      25        property tax exemptions.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Commercial properties that maintain their


       2        historic features are -- you know, have federal


       3        tax credits available to them if they were to


       4        apply for them.  If you destroy that historic


       5        fabric, if you pave over that historic fabric,


       6        those tax credits are very unlikely to be


       7        granted.


       8             And, finally, I think the last point is


       9        with regard to his estimates for the cost to


      10        repair the vinyl siding and the wood siding.  He


      11        quoted $50,000 to do the wood and $22,000 to do


      12        the vinyl, but I think it is important to look


      13        at the evidence that's actually out there in


      14        his -- in his estimates.


      15             He's including in his $50,000 figure wiring


      16        inside and out, removing air-conditioning --


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Teal, you're being


      18        duplicative.


      19             MR. TEAL:  Okay.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  We've heard that.


      21             MR. TEAL:  With that, Mr. Chairman, I will


      22        wrap up and request that the decision and the


      23        past decisions by the Historic Preservation


      24        Commission and this council be followed and that


      25        the application and the appeal be denied.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Thank you.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       3             Mr. Corrigan.


       4             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       5             I didn't know if I'd ever get a chance to


       6        talk.  I appreciate it.


       7             A couple of things.  To the committee, one,


       8        I appreciate your patience during this appeal.


       9        Nobody likes appeals.  They're very


      10        frustrating.  I don't like them.  We try to get


      11        our different committees and councils to try to


      12        help us out to get -- save some of this work, so


      13        I apologize in advance about taking so much time


      14        to allow -- to do this tonight.


      15             There's really three basic points that you


      16        need to be considering.  One is vinyl siding has


      17        never been allowed in any historic district in


      18        Jacksonville.  You've heard from neighbors --


      19        residents, the neighborhood association and the


      20        businesses all which confirm that.


      21             Number two is we're talking about the law


      22        here.  These are not ideas that we think ought


      23        to be done or something else.  This is an


      24        ordinance that was passed by this council back


      25        in 1997, '98, and became law.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             It's -- to be -- using a couple of


       2        analogies for you.  If you live in a


       3        neighborhood that has covenants and restrictions


       4        and one of them is that you can't have a


       5        motorhome parked in your yard and you buy a


       6        motorhome and want to park it there, you don't


       7        have that choice.  You can't park it there.


       8        It's against the law.  You have to -- you'd have


       9        to park it where you can.


      10             But this is a little more stricter since


      11        this is actually a law.  This isn't a covenant


      12        and restriction.  It's more like a one-way


      13        street you go down and it's much easier and


      14        faster and less gas for you to turn the opposite


      15        way on a one-way street because you can


      16        accomplish that faster, but you can't do it


      17        because it's against the law.


      18             In this case, he's asking to do something


      19        that's against the law and shouldn't be allowed


      20        to be done.


      21             And it's interesting, much of the


      22        conversation you've heard during this discussion


      23        tonight, terms used by the applicant, who has


      24        done a great job trying -- we're trying to find


      25        compromise between him and I and the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        neighborhood, and there just isn't one here.


       2             He spoke a great deal about cost


       3        effective.  He talked about low maintenance


       4        cost.  He talked about the fact he'll have to


       5        continue to repair and replace the siding.  He


       6        said that cost is much less.  It's half the


       7        cost.  He said he's willing to look into the


       8        grant process.  He said it's the number one


       9        siding used in the United States.


      10             He never said that this is an economic


      11        hardship, that he has an economic hardship.  And


      12        one of the things you need to consider when you


      13        consider allowing something like this to happen


      14        is, is it an economic hardship on the applicant


      15        to be able to do this?  And I don't believe


      16        that's the case here.  And even if it was, you


      17        really would be setting a precedent.


      18             You think this appeal is long and tenuous


      19        and it's taking a lot of your time tonight, if


      20        you allow this one, you're going to have dozens


      21        of them coming behind him to do it because


      22        they're going to say it's a cheaper way to do


      23        it.  So it's just not the wrong way to go, it's


      24        not what the people in this area bought in this


      25        area and continue to buy in this area for.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        They're there because they want to avoid vinyl


       2        siding on the sides of their houses.


       3             I know there's a whole bunch of cities that


       4        allow vinyl siding on a house.  Jacksonville,


       5        Florida, happens to be on a list of those cities


       6        that allows vinyl siding, and I think it should.


       7             But my house, I painted it three years


       8        ago.  It's all wood.  I don't have any vinyl.


       9        Unlike the applicant, I don't have any vinyl on


      10        my house.  It's now been three years and I'm


      11        getting ready to paint it all over again.


      12        Should I strip every piece of paint off and


      13        start over?  I could get vinyl siding and apply


      14        to do it if I really wanted to go through that


      15        process that Mr. Bajalia has had to do.


      16             But you know what?  When I bought my house


      17        five years ago, I knew I was going to have to do


      18        it every three to five years.  And it's kind of


      19        a pride of ownership that I do that.  And


      20        there's thousands of people that are doing that


      21        in the historic districts in Jacksonville and


      22        they understand it.


      23             So while I sympathize with Mr. Bajalia and


      24        while I do want him to continue to fix up this


      25        property, I will tell you that I cannot and I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        urge you not to support his appeal because it


       2        will cast a dangerous precedent, and you will --


       3        as I said earlier, you will see many more of


       4        these in the historic district that I fought so


       5        hard to create back in 1997 will become eroded


       6        at a much faster pace than we have restored it.


       7             So thank you.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Corrigan.


       9             I don't have anybody else in the queue.


      10             MR. WEBB:  Move to deny.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved to deny.


      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded


      14        to deny the appeal.


      15             Any discussion on the amendment?


      16             Mr. Joost.


      17             MR. JOOST:  Mr. Bajalia, I'd like to ask


      18        you a question.


      19             MR. BAJALIA:  Yes, sir.


      20             MR. JOOST:  First of all, thanks for coming


      21        down.


      22             And I found your arguments somewhat


      23        persuasive, but after I had left your location


      24        when we had our meeting there, I actually did


      25        some research on vinyl, and what I'd found





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        out -- I'm trying to find the exact thing it


       2        says.


       3             What concerned me is during my research on


       4        the Internet, it said, unlike wood and masonry,


       5        vinyl siding presents its own breed of


       6        maintenance worries:  Moisture trapped beneath


       7        the vinyl will accelerate rot, promote mold,


       8        mildew, and invite insect infestation.


       9             Left uncorrected, dampness in the walls


      10        will cause wallpaper, paint -- blah, blah,


      11        blah -- to blister and peel.  To avoid hidden


      12        decay, you will want to frequently recaulk


      13        joints between the vinyl siding and adjacent


      14        trim.


      15             And then it talks about leaks, faulty


      16        gutters, and other sources of moisture which


      17        would cause extra repairs in the vinyl if not --


      18        your attention was not brought to it


      19        immediately.


      20             Would you like to rebut?  Is there any way


      21        you can rebut that?


      22             MR. BAJALIA:  Well, the -- there's a --


      23        there's a program certification process for


      24        installers to properly -- certified installers,


      25        of which I intend to use, to install the product





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        in the proper manner.  And I think that that in


       2        itself would prevent some of the issues that you


       3        pointed out.  Plus, it's also recommended that


       4        the vinyl siding is cleaned and pressure-washed


       5        once a year.


       6             And I think that that would -- I have some


       7        other -- another property with vinyl siding, and


       8        I do that once a year to prevent any mildew


       9        or -- on the building on the siding, and that's


      10        why it's preventive.


      11             I haven't experienced it.  I've prevented


      12        it from happening, and so that would be -- that


      13        would be my response to that, sir.


      14             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And then there was one


      15        other thing that I was reading where it said, if


      16        you had to put vinyl siding on, that you would


      17        have to replace a lot of the historic features


      18        on most older buildings.


      19             Can you rebut that?


      20             MR. BAJALIA:  Yeah.  The -- one of the


      21        handouts that I provided you was architectural


      22        millwork and trim accessories for -- that are


      23        used in historic districts, and I guess the


      24        cities -- the cities that were provided to me by


      25        the trade association and the manufacturers of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        the product.


       2             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And then one last thing


       3        that concerned me also regarding durability.  It


       4        says vinyl is less durable than wood and


       5        masonry.  Vinyl -- wind can get underneath the


       6        thin sheets of vinyl siding and lift the panel


       7        from the wall.  Wind-blown debris and strong


       8        hail can puncture vinyl.


       9             Can you rebut that?


      10             MR. BAJALIA:  Well, this product will be


      11        applied to the current structure.  It's not


      12        going to be replacing the current structure, so


      13        I'm not going to tear down -- I don't intend to


      14        tear down the wood siding.  But as far as


      15        puncture, it's a vinyl product.  So if somebody


      16        wants to puncture it, I suspect they can, as


      17        they probably could wood.


      18             MR. JOOST:  All right.  Thank you.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Anybody else on the


      20        amendment?


      21             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, all in favor


      23        say aye.


      24             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       3        amended this to deny the appeal.


       4             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended to deny


       5        the appeal.


       6             MR. HOLT:  Second.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and


       8        seconded as amended.


       9             Any discussion on the bill?


      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the


      12        ballot.


      13             (Committee ballot opened.)


      14             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)


      15             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      16             MR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      17             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      18             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      19             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      21        the vote.


      22             (Committee ballot closed.)


      23             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nays.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      25        denied the appeal 2007-1350.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. CORRIGAN:  Mr. Chairman, thank you very


       2        much.  I appreciate the committee's patience.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is that it, Mr. Corrigan?


       4             MR. CORRIGAN:  That is it, sir.  Thank you.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir, for


       6        visiting.


       7             Mr. Bishop, welcome.


       8             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  You had something that you


      10        wanted to bring up.


      11             MR. BISHOP:  Yes, sir.  It's item 39,


      12        2008-857.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Council members, page 12,


      14        2009-857 [sic].


      15             Would you like to start or should I just


      16        open and close the public hearing for you?


      17             MR. BISHOP:  Go ahead.  You can go ahead


      18        and take it in normal course.  That would be


      19        fine, Mr. Graham.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We will open the


      21        public hearing of 2008-857.


      22             Mr. Hainline.


      23             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)


      24             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Chairman, my name is


      25        T.R. Hainline, 1301 Riverplace Boulevard.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             I'm here representing Gate Petroleum.


       2             This is a transmittal of a land use


       3        amendment in the area where McCormick Road and


       4        the Wonderwood Expressway -- McCormick Road,


       5        slash, the Wonderwood Expressway intersects with


       6        Fort Caroline Road in Arlington.


       7             This amendment involves a proposed


       8        redevelopment at that intersection, specifically


       9        the demolition of an existing older gas station,


      10        convenience store and strip center at one site,


      11        then placing that site in the conservation land


      12        use category and donating it to the City as park


      13        and greenspace, and then the construction of a


      14        new gas station and convenience store with


      15        substantial design controls and buffers at a


      16        retention pond site that is owned by the JTA


      17        across the street.


      18             The idea of this redevelopment at this site


      19        arose several years ago as a result of the JTA's


      20        planned improvements on the Wonderwood


      21        Expressway.


      22             This proposal has been the subject of


      23        numerous community meetings.  Gate received


      24        positive feedback in the initial meetings, and


      25        so it proceeded with the next steps, which is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        this land use amendment of the JTA pond site,


       2        some preliminary designs, and then continued


       3        meetings with the area residents regarding the


       4        design and various conditions.


       5             We've moved from concept to specific


       6        design.  And as we've done so, questions and


       7        concerns have arisen specifically and


       8        particularly about the JTA's clearing of the


       9        site.  The site was once wooded and it has been


      10        cleared for the JTA's pond construction there at


      11        the site.


      12             Gate has been addressed -- asked to address


      13        not only issues of design controls and buffers


      14        for its convenience store -- the proposed


      15        convenience store, but also buffering and


      16        security and maintenance for the JTA pond.


      17             We're making every attempt to address these


      18        issues.  And even though we're only at


      19        transmittal, we're essentially -- we have


      20        PUD-ready plans and conditions here that we're


      21        ready to propose that deal with both the JTA


      22        pond and with the convenience store.  We've


      23        proposed those conditions there in the booklet


      24        that I have passed out.


      25             This is a step in a long process, and we





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        ask only that you approve this transmittal so we


       2        can continue that process, continue our


       3        discussions with the neighbors, with Councilman


       4        Bishop, with the Planning department; and then,


       5        of course, adoption of a plan -- a consideration


       6        of adoption of a plan amendment and a PUD would


       7        come up in February.


       8             But these discussions and this possible


       9        redevelopment and the positives of it, which


      10        involve land -- parkland on both sides of the


      11        road -- possible parkland on both sides of the


      12        road, the positives of this cannot continue and


      13        these discussions cannot continue without


      14        approving this transmittal tonight.


      15             We have -- I'm pretty much through with


      16        what I'm going to say, but we have some others


      17        coming up.  Jim Robinson is going to talk some


      18        about traffic conflicts at the existing site,


      19        Drew Frick will give you some history of this


      20        particular issue, and then Ken Wilson will go


      21        through the specific conditions.  And we're all


      22        here to answer any questions when they're


      23        through.


      24             Thank you.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Hainline.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       2             Jim, welcome.


       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       4             Jim Robinson.  My address is 6500 Bowden


       5        Road, Suite 290.


       6             I was asked to evaluate this site, both the


       7        existing store location in the triangle area, as


       8        well as its proposed relocated site across the


       9        street.


      10             And in the third page of your little


      11        booklet on this matter is an aerial photograph


      12        that shows this, and one of the things that I


      13        would briefly characterize as the difference


      14        between before and after is the nature of -- and


      15        number of traffic conflicts that exist.


      16             Today, the -- in the condition where the


      17        Gate store is located, traffic that is coming


      18        from the west headed east, in order to enter the


      19        store location --


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Jim, can I get you to flip


      21        that over so north is on top?  You kind of


      22        weirded me out.


      23             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thanks.


      25             MR. ROBINSON:  I'll leave that alone.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Anyway, the -- now you've got me flipped


       2        out.


       3             So we've got from the west to east and --


       4        for traffic to enter the store location, this


       5        entering off of McCormick has to actually make a


       6        U-turn at the location into a driveway that is


       7        very close to the intersection of this little


       8        cross-street here (indicating) or


       9        cross-connection between Fort Caroline and


      10        McCormick.


      11             Looking at this location during peak


      12        periods, both in the morning and the afternoon,


      13        that causes a lot of extra conflict coupled with


      14        traffic that's coming from Fort Caroline headed


      15        back to the west on McCormick with the very


      16        short distance from the intersection to the


      17        driveway.  Actually, even this afternoon a


      18        couple of near-miss rear-end collisions were


      19        witnessed.


      20             If the location of the store is over at the


      21        proposed site, then access is controlled in a


      22        very standard, signalized intersection,


      23        something that drivers are comfortable with


      24        negotiating and expect to -- as they would come


      25        and go.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             The other point about the site as it exists


       2        today -- it is true that the Gate station


       3        portion of the site is expected to have


       4        additional fueling stations in the new


       5        configuration.  And presumably if it were to


       6        stay and be redeveloped in the triangle, it


       7        would -- it would want to have those additional


       8        fueling positions as well.


       9             So it's likely that the after condition


      10        will, in fact, be an increase of traffic and


      11        that will be dealt with during concurrency, but


      12        that would only exacerbate the problem in the


      13        triangle area if there was more traffic there.


      14        It would be much safer to be in the proposed


      15        location.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      17             Drew.


      18             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Drew Frick with Gate


      20        Petroleum Company, 9540 San Jose Boulevard,


      21        Jacksonville, Florida 32257.


      22             I want to tell you a little bit about the


      23        history of this process because we've been


      24        working on it over four years.


      25             But before I start that, I wanted to make





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        it clear what we're not doing, and that is Gate


       2        has not done any clearing on the site.


       3        Everything that has occurred to date is the


       4        JTA.  They are working on a retention pond for


       5        that site.  That will go forward regardless of


       6        what happens with this transmittal and what


       7        happens with this Gate station.


       8             You've heard of the impacts from that.  You


       9        will hear of the impacts from that.  You've


      10        heard of the impacts to the triangle parcel.


      11        And what we did four years ago is we went to the


      12        community with an idea and a plan to try to


      13        offset some of those impacts and really come up


      14        with a community plan for this area and an


      15        overall improvement to the area, and what that


      16        involved and what evolved from that process was


      17        taking the existing uses on the entire triangle


      18        parcel -- there's both the Gate station as well


      19        as a strip center.  Those are outdated, 40 years


      20        old or so, and certainly in need of improvement.


      21             And what we have committed to do is to


      22        close, remove, and demolish those existing uses;


      23        to clean the site; donate it to the City in a


      24        clean, clear state; place it in conservation to


      25        prevent any future development of that site,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        which will certainly address the traffic impacts


       2        that we just heard of; as well as create a


       3        greenspace area and really a better front door


       4        for the community as a whole.


       5             Along with that, we worked on the retention


       6        pond site with the JTA.  Originally, it had the


       7        rectangular-shaped pond that you see all over


       8        town.  That was reshaped to be a more


       9        curvilinear-type design, hopefully more


      10        aesthetically appealing to the community.


      11             And in doing that, we're also able to


      12        create another -- a second greenspace area that


      13        we will donate to the City as well.  And that is


      14        here (indicating), adjacent to Buck Park and the


      15        Holly Oaks Community Club.


      16             So the first big benefit is, obviously, the


      17        greenspace areas that are created along


      18        Wonderwood Expressway to help alleviate some of


      19        the impacts that are already there and deal with


      20        the traffic safety issues that occur in and


      21        around the triangle parcel.


      22             We worked on relocating the Gate site


      23        across the road.  This is a four-way lighted


      24        interchange, so safety is also a big reason for


      25        doing that.  And then here recently, we have





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        worked with Councilman Bishop on creating a


       2        site-specific store, and his charge to us was to


       3        create a residential-looking convenience store.


       4             And if you flip through the packets that


       5        you have, you'll see some of the details of that


       6        architecture, and we've certainly gone to great


       7        lengths to try to create a residential-looking


       8        store.


       9             And in a minute, Ken Wilson will come up


      10        here and tell you about some specific conditions


      11        that we've also worked on with regards to that


      12        store.  One big one is that we have committed to


      13        maintaining this lake.  And if you look in your


      14        books, you'll also see some pictures of not only


      15        the rectangular ponds that the JTA uses -- they


      16        have so many ponds that at times they get a


      17        little overlooked as far as maintenance.


      18             And there's some pictures in that store of


      19        our Kendall Town development, which has a JTA


      20        pond in it that we maintain.  And having us


      21        there on the site to maintain that pond will


      22        improve the quality of that site.


      23             So we believe, from a community


      24        perspective, we've created some public use areas


      25        to offset the impacts, aesthetic controls,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        conditions on the actual use as well as improve


       2        the safety by relocating to a lighted


       3        interchange.


       4             I'll let Mr. Wilson come up here and tell


       5        you a little bit about the conditions we've


       6        worked out with the specific neighbors in the


       7        community to address their impacts.


       8             Thank you very much.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Drew.


      10             Ken.


      11             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      13             My name is Ken Wilson, 3929 Charter House


      14        Drive.


      15             You've heard the history, you've heard


      16        we've come through four years.  We haven't come


      17        through four years because it's been road


      18        blocked.  It's just been a lot to accomplish in


      19        four years.


      20             As we get to this point in our history, we


      21        have tried to address each of the concerns of


      22        the adjoining residents.  We're still working


      23        our way through some of those.  We also have


      24        tried to address some of the common sense


      25        concerns that you'd address in any situation





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        like this.


       2             I'd like to cover those with you if I can.


       3        A list of these are in the back of your booklet


       4        you have.  There's also sort of a bullet list of


       5        the 13 conditions back there that summarize


       6        them.


       7             The first one is to place the triangle


       8        properties in conservation land use.  You heard


       9        that.  That's pretty self-explanatory.  That


      10        would be done before we operate this store.  We


      11        cannot open the doors on the store without that


      12        happening.


      13             Donate the clean triangle property to the


      14        City.  We would be responsible for all cleanup,


      15        along with JTA, of the existing facilities, the


      16        fish market, the dry cleaners and the Gate


      17        station on the property.  We do all the


      18        environmental cleanup and site clearing.


      19             Limitation of use under neighborhood


      20        commercial.  What we're proposing is the land


      21        use change and ultimate zoning would only allow


      22        for a convenience store operation such as a Gate


      23        store on this site.  No other commercial use or


      24        any other use would be allowed.


      25             Access to McCormick was an issue with the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Holly Oaks Community Club.  We addressed that.


       2        We removed the access drive to McCormick -- to


       3        the Fulton right-of-way, excuse me, and our


       4        access will be solely to the McCormick


       5        right-of-way, which is now the Wonderwood


       6        Expressway, at the signalized intersection and


       7        possibly a right in, right out as depicted on


       8        the site plan.


       9             Architectural controls.  Those are pretty


      10        self-explanatory.  You've seen the quality of


      11        what we'll do.  Those will specifically be


      12        attached as depicted.  This isn't we're going to


      13        build it somewhat like this (indicating).  We'll


      14        build it like you see it as depicted.


      15             The buffers around the store.  The store


      16        will have a 50-foot natural buffer along the


      17        western property line abutting residential.  It


      18        will have a 25-foot landscape buffer along the


      19        southern property line abutting the lake, which


      20        is still several hundred feet before you get to


      21        the southern property line of the JTA property


      22        as depicted on the site plan.


      23             Limitation on store hours.  The operations


      24        of the store will be limited to 6:00 a.m. to


      25        11:00 p.m.  Deliveries, dumpster service will be





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        limited to 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.  Limitations


       2        on lighting controls and on lighting design,


       3        we've already gone through some specifications


       4        with Councilman Bishop.  We're working on an LED


       5        light system that would be recessed.  There


       6        would be no sort of lighting visible such as


       7        this to any of the adjoining neighbors.  You'd


       8        have to be directly under the canopy to see the


       9        light source.


      10             Our parking lot lighting would be handled


      11        the same way in some of the areas around where


      12        there's parking.  There would be no visible


      13        light sources.  And LED, if you're familiar with


      14        that, is a lower intensity lighting.


      15             Location and screening of dumpsters.  That


      16        has been moved to the eastern property, away


      17        from residential, and will be screened with


      18        construction materials similar to the building


      19        itself.  A buffer around the JTA pond -- an


      20        additional 25-foot buffer will be placed around


      21        the JTA pond.


      22             Security fencing provided around the entire


      23        property, securing the site from vagrants.


      24        Maintenance of the JTA pond is on Gate Petroleum


      25        Company.  We will maintain it.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             There's a couple of pictures in that


       2        brochure also of a typical JTA pond on


       3        Wonderwood --


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ken.


       5             MR. WILSON:  -- currently built and


       6        established.  You see what is typical of the


       7        Transportation Authority's maintenance.  I'm not


       8        picking on JTA.


       9             There's also a picture of the Kendall Town


      10        retention pond that has JTA water in it --


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ken.


      12             MR. WILSON:  -- from the interchange that


      13        we maintain.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Your time is up.


      15             MR. WILSON:  Okay.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  The next speaker is


      17        John Fox, followed by Dianne Wiles.


      18             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is John Fox.  I


      20        reside at 2046 Challeux Drive West,


      21        Jacksonville, Florida 32225.


      22             Thank you committee, chairman, and members


      23        for the opportunity to speak today.  I'm a


      24        resident of the Laudonniere neighborhood, and I


      25        am objecting to ordinance 2008-857 for the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        purpose of relocating the Gate gas station on


       2        the south side of McCormick Road.


       3             I have a list of items I'm entering in the


       4        public record tonight, which are being given to


       5        you right now.


       6             On page 1 is a June 2nd, 2006, letter to


       7        St. Johns River Water Management District in


       8        opposition to JTA's request for pond number 6


       9        redesign for the purpose of making the parcel of


      10        land a residential low density attractive for


      11        commercial development.


      12             On page 2 of the letter shows JTA pond


      13        number 6 design plan with a new Gate facility


      14        included on this, and this is dated 2006.


      15             Next on page 5 is a letter dated


      16        September 25, 2006, to Mike Saylor, director of


      17        Planning and Development --


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Fox, can I get you to


      19        slow down just a little bit.  It's kind of hard


      20        for our court reporter to keep up when you're


      21        reading something.


      22             MR. FOX:  Sure.


      23              -- which expressed our neighborhood's


      24        concerns with JTA's pond redesign in order to


      25        prepare the parcel of residential low density





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        land for relocation of the Gate station or a


       2        commercial development without having to go


       3        through the land use change process, which shows


       4        disregard for preserving the current residential


       5        land use and assumes that the land use change to


       6        neighborhood commercial is a done deal before


       7        the process is even started.


       8             On page 8 and 9, our supporting technical


       9        staff report comments evidencing commercial


      10        development intent by JTA, which we feel


      11        undermines Jacksonville's Planning and


      12        Development process.


      13             On page 11 is our objection to support in


      14        detail, which, in summary, notes the proposed


      15        ordinance is inconsistent with several elements


      16        of the 2010 comprehensive plan.  One of -- the


      17        Wonderwood connector corridor land use and


      18        zoning study dated April 2002 and adopted by the


      19        City Council, the neighborhood commercial land


      20        use category definition, and it generates


      21        several community safety concerns.


      22             On page 14 are comments addressing the


      23        staff report for the Planning Commission.


      24             On page 18 is a CPAC opposition letter.


      25             On page 20 is the Greater Arlington Civic





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Council opposition letter.


       2             On page 22 are petitions with 34


       3        Laudonniere neighbors' signatures in opposition


       4        to ordinance 2008-857 and the proposed


       5        relocation of the Gate station, which are


       6        represented by the shaded area that's on your


       7        screens in the neighborhood.


       8             The only one is the pie slice in the


       9        middle, and that was the letter that is in


      10        Gates' package.


      11             In addition, starting on page 48 are


      12        several miscellaneous letters of objection over


      13        the past three years.


      14             This is just a bad thing for the


      15        neighborhood.  We do not want it.


      16             And we thank you very much.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      18             Ms. Wiles followed, by Mr. Hawkins.


      19             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      21        Dianne Wiles, 10663 [sic], 32225.


      22             I'm passing out a couple of handouts.  The


      23        first one I'd like to go over is the stipulated,


      24        amended, and restated taking of this land.  I


      25        really just want to go over item number 6, which





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        is on page number 3, and it states, "The


       2        Jacksonville Transportation Authority agrees


       3        that any use or conveyance of the surplus land


       4        will be limited and restricted to those uses


       5        currently permitted either by right or by


       6        special exception under the existing land use


       7        designation of low density residential in either


       8        the primary or secondary zoning districts,


       9        except those uses as follows:  any uses


      10        consisting of adult entertainment, services" --


      11        and it goes on to say what is not allowed on


      12        this land.


      13             This is an eminent domain case.  I don't


      14        even know if this is legal.  I know there was a


      15        law passed this year -- actually in 2006, saying


      16        you can't take surplus land and convey it over


      17        to commercial enterprise or a private person, so


      18        I think a little bit of research needs to be put


      19        into that.


      20             Also, when this was from -- this is from --


      21        I'll submit this for the record (indicating); I


      22        didn't have time to make enough copies -- from


      23        John T. Davis to the development committee to


      24        recommend that the board authorize for this to


      25        go through.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             And one of the paragraphs he says,


       2        "Additionally, the City desires to have the site


       3        currently occupied by the Gate station in the


       4        JTA-owned commercial building to be cleared."


       5        I'm not sure who initiated this from the City.


       6        That sounds a little different.


       7             But anyway, to the pictures, I just wanted


       8        to go over a little bit with the pictures just


       9        to kind of show you up close and personal what's


      10        going on here.


      11             JTA actually only took five feet of the


      12        Gate property where they currently are.  They


      13        redesigned the road and moved it behind the Gate


      14        gas station and took most of the property from


      15        the post office that's behind there.


      16             The Gate gas station has been there for


      17        20 years.  That's where the community accepts


      18        it.  It is totally surrounded by roads.  Once


      19        everything opens back up, Fort Caroline will be


      20        open, Wonderwood.  They'll have an entrance on


      21        each side and they could actually demolish the


      22        unsightly strip center that's there and have


      23        three entrances.  And they don't abut any


      24        residential property where they are now, and it


      25        functions just fine.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             The applicant has stated that it's not


       2        functional.  I go in and out of that shopping


       3        center.  It functions just fine.


       4             A lot to get in in three minutes, five


       5        years of history.  I apologize.


       6             Number 2 is another view of the existing


       7        Gate gas station showing the JTA surplus land


       8        there in the triangle which they could turn over


       9        to Gate or sell to Gate -- I don't know what


      10        would be proper -- so that Gate could expand and


      11        add more gas pumps there.  Of course, you


      12        wouldn't be able to have a 16-pump gas station


      13        which they're proposing across the street.


      14             There's a lot of information here and not


      15        enough time to do it in three minutes, but I do


      16        greatly appreciate your time and the careful


      17        consideration to the legality of this.


      18             Thank you.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Dianne.


      20             Lad, followed by Karen Finnell.


      21             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      22             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Lad Hawkins.


      23        I live at 1924 Holly Oaks Lake Road West.


      24             I'm the president of the Greater Arlington


      25        Civic Council.  I'm on the CPAC Land Use and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Zoning Committee, and I'm a past president of


       2        the Holly Oaks Community Club adjacent to this


       3        proposed gas station site.


       4             Both the Greater Arlington Civic Council


       5        and the CPAC have unanimously opposed this for


       6        years.  Now, how anybody can come up here and


       7        say that this is something that this community


       8        wants -- I've been to two community meetings


       9        where there were a couple hundred people and


      10        everybody there opposed it, so I'm not seeing


      11        any people that think this is a great idea.


      12             Gate needs to stay right where they are.


      13        Right now they have a piece of land that is


      14        about an acre.  They're taking 2,160 feet off of


      15        that, which is only 4.9 percent.  This is a


      16        tiny, little strip.


      17             Under our zoning code, when eminent domain


      18        is involved, you can actually get a waiver for


      19        your setback, your 10-foot landscape from the


      20        road because it's eminent domain, so they could


      21        have the same exact area they have now.


      22             In addition to that, JTA owns the fish


      23        market and the cleaners, which is a chunk out of


      24        this property, which JTA has offered to give to


      25        Gate.  This adds another 12,506 square feet,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        giving Gate 1.28 acres in that triangle that


       2        they could develop a nice gas station.


       3             JTA has worked very hard to move this


       4        roadway over into the post office property so


       5        that the Gate property is virtually untouched,


       6        and there's no reason why they cannot stay where


       7        they are.


       8             The traffic here -- in their analysis, they


       9        say that there's so many square feet of building


      10        now and there's so many square feet later.


      11        That's all good and well, but they're going from


      12        four pumps to sixteen pumps.  And the traffic is


      13        going to increase from 312 to 360 percent.  It's


      14        a huge increase in traffic that's going to occur


      15        on this piece of property above and beyond what


      16        was in that triangle before.


      17             This is not appropriate.  It's spot


      18        zoning.  And, as such, the Wonderwood corridor


      19        study very clearly states that this is a -- this


      20        is something that will set a domino effect.  And


      21        once you approve a land use, a gas station in


      22        low density residential, then somebody down the


      23        road is going to come in and ask for the same


      24        thing and we're not going to be able to tell


      25        them no.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             The whole reason we had the Planning


       2        Department do this study was so that we could


       3        hold the line on this sort of thing, and this is


       4        exactly what we do not want to start.


       5             Thank you very much.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Lad.


       7             Karen, followed by Oz Baker.


       8             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       9             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hello.


      10             I'm Karen Finnell, 2066 Challeux Drive,


      11        Laudonniere, Jacksonville, Florida.


      12             First of all, I want to say I'm extremely


      13        opposed to ordinance 2008-857, and I would like


      14        to say I do not know what neighbors Gate refers


      15        to when they say they have talked to some of our


      16        neighbors and they are for this.  I have yet to


      17        have one person I know or anybody representing


      18        any part in the neighborhood stand up at any


      19        meeting and say they want it.


      20             Also, where the traffic light now is, we


      21        have to do a U-turn when we come out of our


      22        street to make a left going west.  The Gate


      23        station, where they propose it, is right smack


      24        in the middle of where the traffic light is.  It


      25        will be very dangerous to have that intersection





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        there with Gate as they propose.


       2             Over 30 years ago, my husband and I


       3        searched for a location to build a house.  We


       4        chose Challeux Drive because of the beauty of


       5        the property and of the neighborhood.  We built


       6        our house and left the entire lot as it is,


       7        retaining all the trees, bushes and undergrowth


       8        as nature grew them.  A Gate station would


       9        greatly reduce the way of life we currently


      10        enjoy and our tranquility.


      11             For more than 30 years, our neighborhood


      12        has coexisted with the current Gate station.  We


      13        endure the noise and lights there now.  The


      14        noise level will be quitely [sic] increased if


      15        the Gate station is moved to South McCormick.


      16        The safety of our homes will also be in more


      17        jeopardy, and any lights they use reflect or


      18        brighten our area.  The retention pond that JTA


      19        is building will amplify those problems.


      20             We do not want a Gate station at the


      21        proposed location.  There's enough property


      22        where the Gate station is now to build a bigger


      23        Gate station.  Maybe not 16 pumps, but more than


      24        the four they have now.


      25             If money is the only consideration that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Gate's using, then maybe they do need to build a


       2        16-pump station there.  If Gate truly cares


       3        about the neighborhood, then they will not move.


       4             Thank you.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Oz, followed by Brenda Fox.


       6             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, council.


       8             My name is Oz Baker, 2066 Challeux Drive


       9        West.


      10             The current gas station has been, you know,


      11        at that location about 35 years, as you've


      12        already heard.


      13             The JTA can make whatever deal necessary


      14        for Gate to develop its approximately 1.5 acres


      15        of that triangle land where it now sits.  We


      16        suggest that the extra land, which is the


      17        proposed gas station site, be incorporated into


      18        the Buck Park and Holly Oaks Forest Community


      19        and Swim Club.  This would provide a usable,


      20        expanded community gathering place and benefit


      21        the whole community.


      22             A gas station at this site will reduce our


      23        real property values greatly.  We have already


      24        had to endure noise, lights, and such strong


      25        vibrations through our homes and every cell of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        our body that they rival seismic activity.  A


       2        gas station will cause irreparable damage to our


       3        safety due to criminal activity which will


       4        endanger our children.  And you can imagine all


       5        the ways.  You've heard them before.


       6             Then there's the inherent dangers from fuel


       7        spills, fires, explosions, poisoning in the


       8        environment.  Frankly, oil and water don't mix


       9        well and would ruin any so said environmental


      10        preservation.


      11             We respectfully ask that -- a vote against


      12        this site to mitigate the deterioration of our


      13        safety and life-styles.  The so-called traffic


      14        problems with the new U-turn -- it didn't used


      15        to be that way.  It was created by the JTA and


      16        could be reversed.


      17             The part of the land that they said --


      18        which is actually south of McCormick and on


      19        McCormick Road where they said now they don't


      20        have as much land.  Well, they only used about


      21        five feet of their land.  They took the road


      22        into our properties on our side.


      23             And what they didn't show you -- I'm


      24        sorry.  What they didn't show you in this


      25        picture here is where all the trees were.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Can I pick this up?


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


       3             MR. BAKER:  Okay.  Great.  All right.


       4             This used to be all forest right here


       5        (indicating).  Okay.  With foxes, owls, all


       6        sorts of wildlife.


       7             Now the light -- the eastern light comes


       8        through the windows of our homes.


       9             We actually reside right here (indicating)


      10        at this property, but all these properties along


      11        here (indicating) in the -- I'm sorry.  They


      12        live right there.


      13             But the east light comes into the windows,


      14        and there's plenty of room right here


      15        (indicating).


      16             And when -- the other thing they had up


      17        here like this, they showed it all nice and


      18        green like a cartoon, you know.  But actually


      19        our home is right there.  And the 50-foot buffer


      20        of vegetation, that's ours.  You know, it's not


      21        like they're giving us anything.  They've


      22        actually promised a 20-foot buffer here


      23        (indicating), but they mowed all those trees


      24        down anyway.


      25             And then -- we don't need it in our





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        neighborhood, and we respectfully ask that you


       2        please vote against this.


       3             Thank you.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Baker, I've got a


       5        question for you.


       6             Now, it's my understanding that this was


       7        all done by JTA and not Gate; is that correct?


       8        All those trees you're talking about got mowed


       9        down?


      10             MR. BAKER:  Yes.  I kind of think JTA and


      11        Gate are kind of connected.  You know what I


      12        mean?


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


      14             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Applause.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Brenda Fox, followed by


      16        Jack Miller.


      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Brenda Fox,


      19        and I live at 2046 Challeux Drive.


      20             And I ask your patience.  This is a very


      21        emotional subject for me.


      22             I was raised adjacent to the gas station,


      23        just like I will be when this gas station gets


      24        here, so I know the effects of a gas station on


      25        a child when you are trying to play in your





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        yard, and I cannot go into all the specifics.


       2             Anyway, that's why I may give the facts to


       3        everybody else, and I ask your patience for me


       4        to try to read this e-mail that I received from


       5        a neighbor who could not be here.


       6             It says, "Please see the e-mail that we


       7        sent to Mr. Ken Wilson.  Since we cannot attend


       8        the meeting tomorrow, may we ask that you submit


       9        this e-mail into the record."


      10             It's very short.  It's page 49 of your


      11        booklet, but I wanted to be sure you hear it.


      12             It says, "Dear Ken.


      13             "This e-mail is from both Robena Crook


      14        (phonetic) and William and Stella Lane.  We were


      15        told that at the last meeting, in which neither


      16        of us attended, gas representatives may have


      17        said we were in favor of the Gate gas station


      18        relocation on McCormick.  That is not accurate.


      19        When you called Robena for a visit, you


      20        indicated that you had some ideas that could be


      21        of help to us."


      22             As I read this, I want you to realize that


      23        this has been a four-year nightmare for our


      24        neighbors.  This is not a day at work for us.


      25        This is energy zapping.  I'm sorry.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             To go on, it says, "The three of us met


       2        with you, at which time we shared our concerns


       3        with you regarding the Gate gas station as well


       4        as the JTA, and you presented some options that


       5        you may have and possibilities of getting us a


       6        fence regardless of Gate coming in.


       7             "During our discussion, none of us -- none


       8        of us indicated in favor of the Gate gas station


       9        being relocated to McCormick and any


      10        representation of such kind are inaccurate.


      11             "We appreciate your input and consideration


      12        of our concerns and regret any


      13        miscommunication.


      14             "Since we cannot attend the meeting


      15        tomorrow, we will give a copy of this e-mail to


      16        John Fox to insert into the record.


      17             "Sincerely, Robena Crook, William and


      18        Stella Lane."


      19             I have been praying for four years, and I


      20        pray that somehow you open your hearts and do


      21        not listen to the sales pitch and please listen


      22        to the people who will be affected.  Where they


      23        are now could be beautifully done if they wanted


      24        to do it.  They do not want to do it.


      25             And forgive me, but what more can it be





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        than greed when you could have maybe 10 there


       2        and you need 16 here.


       3             It would be beautifully done where it is.


       4        I please ask you to consider this.


       5             If you have any questions, I've been


       6        keeping up with everything for four years.  I've


       7        been losing the night sleep which didn't happen


       8        before.  I'm a child advocate and we like to


       9        spend time with children in our back yard.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ma'am.


      11             MS. FOX:  Does that mean my time was up?


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Your time is up.


      13             MS. FOX:  I'm sorry, sir.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's all right.


      15        Thank you.


      16             The last speaker is Jack Miller.


      17             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'll waive and stand


      18        opposed.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      20             That is all we have for the public hearing.


      21             If there's nobody else to speak, we will


      22        close the public hearing, and we will bring it


      23        back to the committee.


      24             Mr. Bishop, did you want to speak before or


      25        after we hear the amendment?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. BISHOP:  I'll wait till after the


       2        amendment.


       3             Thank you.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       5             Staff, let's hear the amendment.


       6             MS. ELLER:  To the committee, the amendment


       7        adds the language that was proposed by


       8        Mr. Hainline.  If you could confirm the subject


       9        of that, I'd appreciate it.  I think Mr. Crofts


      10        has the e-mail, but I'd prefer to have it read


      11        into the record.


      12             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)


      13             MR. HAINLINE:  As I understand, you're


      14        asking me to read the conditions into the


      15        record, which is fine.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.


      17             MR. HAINLINE:  Okay.  What we submitted was


      18        a list of conditions that had been requested


      19        by -- over the course of many community meetings


      20        and had been requested by Mr. Bishop to be


      21        placed into this transmittal legislation as


      22        conditions.


      23             So I'm going to read from the last couple


      24        pages from your booklet is where you can follow


      25        me, and stop me if at any point I've read enough





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        or I don't need to read any more.


       2             It would be to add a new Section 3, which


       3        is called "Approval subject to conditions."


       4             "The approval of the transmittal of this


       5        future land use amendment to the DCA and other


       6        State agencies for review is subject to the


       7        following conditions, which also shall be set


       8        forth in the application for planned unit


       9        development rezoning of the subject property as


      10        a companion to the adoption of this proposed


      11        amendment, in addition to any other conditions


      12        in the PUD rezoning which the City Council may


      13        deem appropriate.


      14             A.  Prior to the adoption of this


      15        transmittal ordinance an application for an


      16        amendment to the future land use map of the


      17        comprehensive plan shall be filed with the City


      18        of Jacksonville for the properties owned by Gate


      19        Petroleum Company, paren, approximately


      20        .55 acres at RE number such and such and


      21        approximately .23 acres at RE number such and


      22        such, closed paren, and the Jacksonville


      23        Transportation Authority, paren, approximately


      24        .5 acres with no RE number, close paren, located


      25        across McCormick Road and to the west of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        subject property, collectively the triangle


       2        properties, requesting that triangle properties


       3        be designated as conservation, paren, CSV, close


       4        paren.


       5             Alternatively, prior to the adoption of


       6        this transmittal ordinance, the owners of the


       7        triangle properties shall authorize or consent


       8        to such amendment being initiated by the City of


       9        Jacksonville and/or district councilperson,


      10        period.


      11             Come down, sub B.


      12             Prior to the issuance of any certificates


      13        of occupancy for proposed structures on the


      14        subject property, number 1, a bond shall be


      15        posted naming the City of Jacksonville as


      16        beneficiary for the demolition of all structures


      17        on the triangle properties, debris removal, and


      18        site stabilization by the owners of the triangle


      19        properties.


      20             And, 2, Title to the triangle properties


      21        shall be conveyed to the City of Jacksonville or


      22        its designee at no cost to the City of


      23        Jacksonville in satisfactory condition for use


      24        or development by the city as greenspace/public/


      25        community use, period.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Hainline.


       2             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't see any need in you


       4        reading all that.


       5             MR. HAINLINE:  Okay.  That's why I


       6        confirmed.  I mean, I'm happy to read or not


       7        read.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Shannon, is there anything


       9        specific you want to make sure that's in the


      10        record?  Other than that, let's move on.


      11             MS. ELLER:  The Planning Department


      12        indicated that there was potentially some


      13        removal of properties, so that would require a


      14        revised legal or a revised map.


      15             Can you guys confirm that for me, if that's


      16        part of this amendment or if that's not?


      17             MR. KELLY:  That's not one of the


      18        agreements.


      19             Through the Chair, it was to remove the


      20        access from Fulton Road as one of the


      21        conditions, so -- negating the need for the land


      22        use change on that portion of the property.


      23             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes, sir, Mr. Kelly.


      24             That certainly shows on the site plan that


      25        we have submitted in the booklets that there is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        no access over at Fulton.  However, if you want


       2        us to remove that from the transmitted


       3        amendment, we're happy to do that.  And if you


       4        want to either pick a number like 20 or 50 feet


       5        so you know that we're not going to access


       6        there, we can do that, or we can attempt to


       7        scale off at what looks like -- at what looks


       8        like at least 50 feet from Fulton, we can


       9        take -- we can take that property -- we can come


      10        back 50 feet off of Fulton with our plan


      11        amendment.  That way it's absolutely crystal


      12        clear that we will never, under any


      13        circumstances, be accessing Fulton with this.


      14             MS. ELLER:  Then just to confirm, the


      15        Planning Department will provide a revised map


      16        showing that revised property boundary for


      17        transmittal to be attached to the ordinance, and


      18        we can less and except that portion from the


      19        attached legal.


      20             MR. HAINLINE:  Okay.


      21             MS. ELLER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      22             MR. HAINLINE:  That's fine.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      24             Thank you, Mr. Hainline.


      25             MR. HAINLINE:  You didn't enjoy my





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        reading?


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  No, I did not.


       3             Okay.  We've got an amendment, and it was


       4        moved and seconded.


       5             Mr. Bishop.


       6             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       7             Most of my comments I will have we'll save


       8        until after the amendment is dealt with, but


       9        suffice it to say that the contents of the


      10        amendment are essentially what we discussed, are


      11        appropriate.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      13             I see nobody else wants to speak to the


      14        amendment.


      15             All in favor of the amendment signify by


      16        saying aye.


      17             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.


      19             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved


      21        the amendment.


      22             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended.


      23             MR. JOOST:  Second.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill has been moved and


      25        seconded as amended.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Mr. Bishop.


       2             MR. BISHOP:  As everyone has stated --


       3        thank you, Mr. Chairman -- on this whole thing,


       4        this has been a four-plus-year ordeal for a lot


       5        of folks for a lot of different reasons.  And


       6        it's interesting that every time there's a


       7        meeting or a discussion about this, something


       8        new pops up.


       9             This is the first time I'd seen a copy of


      10        this court order having to do with the


      11        condemnation of property, and it brings some


      12        interesting things to light because we did spend


      13        quite bit of time with the applicant to work out


      14        what -- in a sense, while it may not be ideal,


      15        certainly does do a number of things that can be


      16        positive.


      17             Number one, it does not increase the total


      18        net commercial in the area.  It moves it from --


      19        it does move it from one side of the street to


      20        the other.  The configuration of that road in


      21        there is an abomination and I think anybody --


      22        if you're here from JTA, you ought to be


      23        embarrassed by that thing because it's just a


      24        traffic travesty.


      25             And if you ask me later, I'll tell you what





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        I really think about it.


       2             But be that as it may, it isn't very good.


       3        And this does, I believe, help create a


       4        situation that would be safer than if the thing


       5        was in the middle of the triangle in some


       6        respects.  Not to say that that can't be fixed,


       7        it certainly can, but what they built doesn't


       8        work very well.


       9             It provides for an opportunity to provide


      10        for some increased park space.  It does provide


      11        for the maintenance of a pond that otherwise, as


      12        we all know throughout the city, would end up


      13        being a rat trap and a weed haven.


      14             And it does provide for the opportunity for


      15        that lake to become actually a public amenity on


      16        the park because it will be maintained and it


      17        will be contiguous with properties that will


      18        become expanded park space.  All those things


      19        are good.


      20             The bad part of it is it would get moved


      21        across the street.  And also this document does


      22        create some question that I think legally ought


      23        to be answered because, while I had a discussion


      24        with Mr. Kelly a second ago, neighborhood


      25        commercial zoning is an acceptable secondary





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        zoning district in LDR, which I found


       2        surprising, but it is -- that's what's in the


       3        code.


       4             This document would prohibit the sale of


       5        alcoholic beverages for either on- or


       6        off-premise consumption without permission -- or


       7        without approval of the defendants in the case,


       8        which would be the McCormick trust folks.


       9             Now, I don't know if anybody has asked them


      10        if this is a good idea and have they given their


      11        permission for this.  That's a legal question I


      12        think we ought to have answered somewhere along


      13        the line.


      14             If they say no, then what does that do to


      15        this whole thing and what does that do to their


      16        standing in this case?  That's just a question I


      17        ask because I don't know the answer to that.


      18             And, Ms. Eller, you might know, but I


      19        don't.


      20             Do you know?


      21             MS. ELLER:  No.  I haven't reviewed that


      22        document.


      23             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  I would suggest that it


      24        might be a good idea for you to do so before a


      25        vote is taken, that we don't go down a road





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        somewhere that we get ourselves in trouble.


       2             Now, granted, this is only transmittal


       3        round.  It's not the final round and it will


       4        come back again, but somewhere along the process


       5        that ought to be identified.  I guess that's my


       6        only real hangup at this point.


       7             There's a lot of good things about it,


       8        there's a lot of bad things about it.  At the


       9        end of the day, on balance, I think it's -- it


      10        has the opportunity to create something


      11        positive, even though it is not exactly the best


      12        thing in the world.


      13             But this little deal right here probably


      14        ought to get answered before we get down the


      15        road too far on this thing.


      16             Thank you.


      17             MS. ELLER:  To the Chairman, the -- if


      18        there are -- if it's a restriction regarding


      19        permitted uses, as long as the City does not


      20        permit those uses, you're in compliance, and


      21        that can be prohibited in the PUD.


      22             Neighborhood commercial in and of itself is


      23        a broad permission under land use, so I don't


      24        think that by designating it neighborhood


      25        commercial somebody can come back -- it's if we





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        ended up issuing a permit under the PUD for a


       2        convenience store to open with that use that


       3        we'd likely get into trouble.


       4             But, again, I haven't reviewed it, so I can


       5        review that in more detail for you.


       6             MR. BISHOP:  Through the Chair to


       7        Ms. Eller, I agree with that.  It does tend to


       8        say that.  What it would tend to me to say is


       9        that you would -- a convenience store, it would


      10        not be allowed to sell beer and wine is what


      11        would be allowed under -- at least according to


      12        this document.


      13             MS. ELLER:  (Nods head.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Webb.


      15             MR. WEBB:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      16             Through the Chair to General Counsel's


      17        Office.


      18             Shannon, one quick question for you.  If


      19        this is voted down this evening, what is the


      20        posture with respect to the next round of


      21        transmittals?


      22             MS. ELLER:  The typical transmittal cycles


      23        run six months apart, so if you vote this down


      24        this evening, the next transmittal cycle it


      25        could be brought before you again for





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        consideration.


       2             The reason why is because the transmittal


       3        is not the final vote on the land use.  If you


       4        transmitted it, it came back, and then denied it


       5        at the adoption round, it may come into play.


       6        There may be some res judicata -- administrative


       7        res judicata or limitations on bringing back the


       8        same application within a certain amount of


       9        time.


      10             But with regard to transmittal, again, it's


      11        the preliminary step.  If it's denied for


      12        transmittal at this point, there's nothing that


      13        prevents them from coming back in six months to


      14        try for transmittal again.


      15             MR. WEBB:  So (inaudible) the same effect


      16        and come back in six months?


      17             MS. ELLER:  Yes, sir.


      18             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Through the Chair, I


      19        guess -- I had a prior conversation with the


      20        developer.  I didn't declare it because it's


      21        not -- ex-parte is not necessary in this --


      22        inasmuch as this is legislative and not


      23        quasi-judicial.


      24             However, to the extent that we're tacking


      25        on conditions that would ultimately be





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        incorporated into a PUD, it is effectively


       2        quasi-judicial.


       3             But that -- having said that, I think that


       4        begs the whole question and another flaw in the


       5        process of the PUD process.  Maybe the zoning


       6        process that we were faced with, this is the


       7        tail wagging the dog again, and I think this


       8        raises a serious issue.


       9             And I did commit to the developer or the


      10        applicant that, you know, given -- I would defer


      11        to the district council representative on this


      12        insofar as he was supportive of it.  I don't


      13        hear that the district councilperson is, in


      14        fact, supportive of this project.


      15             That being the case, I do have some serious


      16        questions as to the propriety of the process as


      17        it's being outlined here for us.  Again, I go


      18        back to my comments.  This is the tail wagging


      19        the dog.


      20             Again, what we're doing is we're putting


      21        the transmittal that the comp- -- above -- and


      22        we're putting -- we're bootstrapping.  We're


      23        effectively making a determination as to what we


      24        want to put on this property and then going back


      25        and reinventing the wheel or modifying the comp





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        plan to provide for that appropriate use.


       2        Okay?  That -- that's a problem.  And I think


       3        that's something that we need to be very mindful


       4        of.  It's coming up in the context of this bill


       5        and another bill that's before us this evening.


       6             That being the case, notwithstanding my


       7        prior discussion with the developer, I'm not


       8        going to support this.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Yarborough.


      10             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Thank you, Mr. Graham.


      11             I appreciate yours and the committee's


      12        indulgence.


      13             I too had met with -- I met with Mr. Frick


      14        and Mr. Hainline last week and had expressed


      15        general support.  They listened to some concerns


      16        that I had, but tonight I have to say there were


      17        two serious questions that I have, even in light


      18        of that meeting.  And I know I'm not a voting


      19        member of the committee, but it will affect my


      20        final vote on this if it's at Council Tuesday,


      21        and one relates to what I was told last week.


      22             Mr. Frick, I believe you shared with me


      23        that Mr. Wilson had talked to Ms. Lane and some


      24        others that were on Challeux Drive South that


      25        are on -- that would abut the south part of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        property, just south of where the lake would be,


       2        and I believe -- and please correct me if I'm


       3        wrong -- you're Mr. Wilson.  I want to make sure


       4        it's right.  I know it's on the record.


       5             But to my recollection, you had said that


       6        after speaking with them that they were --


       7             (Mr. Wilson approaches the podium.)


       8             MR. WILSON:  Yes, please.


       9             MR. YARBOROUGH:  -- that they were not


      10        opposed to it.  And the reason I'm bringing that


      11        up is because Ms. Fox pointed out this letter


      12        from Ms. Crook and Mr. and Ms. Lane, Stella


      13        being one of those, that says they're -- they


      14        are not supportive of it.  So I just wanted to


      15        clarify it.  I really can't tell, so --


      16             MR. WILSON:  I understand.  I appreciate


      17        the opportunity to clarify that, Councilman.


      18             We did meet last Wednesday night at Benny


      19        Crook's home, and the Lanes live directly


      20        adjacent to them.  The discussion went


      21        comfortably well.  We had some give and take.


      22        We discussed the issues of security and


      23        buffering, noise.  A lot of things the


      24        conditions address.


      25             We ended that meeting talking about how the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        fencing would take place, what visual screening


       2        would be committed to and done by Gate.  And


       3        went over the conditions that you've read


       4        tonight, some of which we've added to since that


       5        time.


       6             At the end of that meeting with


       7        Ms. Crook -- the Lanes had departed at that


       8        point and gone home.  They were very


       9        complementary of the project at that point, but


      10        I wasn't representing what they said.


      11             But I asked Ms. Crook.  I said, based on


      12        the meeting this evening -- I don't want to


      13        misrepresent anything that's been said here --


      14        is it accurate to say that while you do not


      15        embrace Gate's zoning of this site for a


      16        convenience store, you would not oppose it if we


      17        meet these conditions?  And she said that's


      18        accurate.  You're welcome to make that statement


      19        to the councilmember and to my neighbors.


      20             So that was the nature of the response.


      21        There was no they've approved our zoning.


      22             Likewise, Mr. McDermott at the Holly Oaks


      23        Community Club, I don't feel I got a raving


      24        endorsement of the zoning.  However, he agreed


      25        he was not opposed to our zoning if we cured the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Fulton Road access driveway issue, which has now


       2        been cured.


       3             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Okay.  And I appreciate


       4        that.


       5             You said after the -- this was after the


       6        Lanes had left when that --


       7             MR. WILSON:  Yeah, the discussion about --


       8             MR. YARBOROUGH:  -- when that conversation


       9        transpired?


      10             MR. WILSON:  -- not opposing the zoning


      11        took place with Ms. Crook.


      12             At the same meeting, at that point the


      13        Lanes had just departed and left.  So the two --


      14        two parties that have indicated they would not


      15        oppose based on these conditions is


      16        Mr. McDermott at the Holy Oaks Club, and


      17        Ms. Crook.  Just those two.


      18             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Okay.  I appreciate that.


      19             Thank you, Mr. Wilson.


      20             Mr. Chairman, the other concern I had --


      21             And, Mr. Fox, if you could come up and


      22        answer one question for me.


      23             In the packet that you gave us, the 50-page


      24        packet or so, page 2 has a drainage map


      25        rendering, and it looks like many others that we





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        see.  It's got the reconfigured pond 6 and it


       2        says New Gate facility on it.  And the date here


       3        was interesting to me.  I think it reads


       4        June 30th of 2004.  I just wanted to see -- it


       5        says Boeing Engineering on it.  Where was the


       6        map?  Just so we know where the --


       7             MR. WILSON:  That map I received on


       8        June 1st, 2006, from JTA, from Bob Oakland


       9        (phonetic).


      10             MR. YARBOROUGH:  It was from JTA?


      11             MR. WILSON:  Yes.


      12             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Okay.  And you concur the


      13        date on here is June 30 of '04 that's on this


      14        drainage map here?


      15             MR. WILSON:  I believe so.


      16             I -- the date I received it was on June --


      17        like it was June 1st, 2006.


      18             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Okay.  I appreciate that.


      19        I just -- I wasn't sure who it was received


      20        from.


      21             Mr. Chairman, the reason I brought it up is


      22        because it's just very peculiar to me.  It says


      23        New Gate Facility on it, but this is dated over


      24        four years ago.  And I guess just the point I'll


      25        make is, how -- how it -- how, four years, ago





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        would anyone have known that there would be


       2        approval for a Gate station to be there?  It's


       3        just kind of interesting.


       4             It's a JTA map, so I think somebody else


       5        put a -- I don't know, just something that stood


       6        out that I hadn't seen before.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  It just looks like somebody


       8        just stamped an old map that says "New Gate


       9        Facility."


      10             MR. HAINLINE:  If you'd like clarification,


      11        we can provide that, but it's up to you.


      12             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Mr. Hainline, if you would


      13        like to try to clarify what I've asked -- that's


      14        the way it appears to me.


      15             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Yarborough, there were


      16        community meetings as of 2004 between Gate


      17        Petroleum and the neighbors.  It was no secret


      18        in 2004 what was being discussed.  Remember that


      19        Mr. Frick stood up and spoke and said this has


      20        been discussed for years.


      21             We submitted to the Planning Commission,


      22        and I can go back and get it and submit it to


      23        you, correspondence from -- who, at that time,


      24        were purported to us to be representatives of


      25        the neighborhood behind where they stated that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        there was no opposition to the Gate station.


       2             So the Gate station was openly being


       3        discussed between Gate and neighbors as of


       4        2004.  It was no secret then, it's no secret


       5        now.  So I don't know who wrote that on that JTA


       6        map, but it certainly was no secret then.


       7             MR. YARBOROUGH:  I appreciate you


       8        clarifying that.  I had not seen it.  I


       9        appreciate that.  And, like I said, it was dated


      10        June of '04.  And then two pages back, there's


      11        one from the same contractor of May of '06.  And


      12        all it says is future commercial development.


      13        It doesn't make any indication that it may or


      14        may not be a Gate station.


      15             MR. HAINLINE:  If it would be helpful to


      16        you, I can provide you with the letter from the


      17        community member regarding 2004 meetings when


      18        the Gate station --


      19             MR. YARBOROUGH:  I recall there were


      20        meetings at the time.  I did not know that that


      21        was discussed specifically at that time, though,


      22        so I appreciate that.


      23             Thank you.


      24             Thank you, Mr. Graham.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Joost.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. JOOST:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       2             A couple of questions.  First would be


       3        to -- through the Chair to legal.  Under this


       4        document right here, the Jacksonville


       5        Transportation Authority is the petitioner.


       6        Okay.  On page 3, paragraph 6, can you clarify


       7        to me exactly what that is saying?  And, you


       8        know, break it down.


       9             MS. ELLER:  (Peruses document.)


      10             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  While you're looking


      11        that over, I've got a couple of other questions


      12        or points I'd like to make.


      13             If this is turned down at this process and


      14        Gate doesn't go through with this, what are the


      15        residents left with?  I mean, they'll be --


      16        number one, I hear you, Mr. Webb, talking about


      17        we've got the tail wagging the dog, but -- and


      18        there may be flaws in the process, but you've


      19        got to look at what is there right now.  I mean,


      20        the land has already been cleared by the JTA,


      21        you know.  There's nothing that can be done


      22        about that.  That's all water under the bridge.


      23             If we don't do this, what kind of buffers


      24        will the residents have?  Will there be any


      25        buffers at all and they're just looking at





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        barren land or a lake?


       2             Can somebody from the Planning Department


       3        or over there tell me, if this doesn't go


       4        through, what will the residents be left with?


       5             MR. CROFTS:  Basically, they'll be left


       6        with what is there now.  They'll be left with a


       7        retention pond and a -- somewhat of a buffer on


       8        the west.  But, as I understand it, there is no


       9        basic buffer, just a wire fence on the south


      10        side.  It's pretty much open.  So it's the


      11        status quo.


      12             MR. JOOST:  It sounds pretty -- I mean,


      13        just to me, it sounds like they'll be left -- it


      14        will kind of look somewhat blighted.  I don't


      15        know if there's another word for it.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Bishop could answer for


      17        you.


      18             MR. JOOST:  Mr. Bishop.


      19             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


      20             Through the Chair to Councilmember Joost.


      21        JTA is responsible for replanting a buffer


      22        around the pond as a part of their work in


      23        building that retention pond.


      24             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And then my last


      25        question, I guess, would be for Mr. Bishop.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             As amended, do you want me to support this


       2        or not?


       3             MR. BISHOP:  That's a very good question,


       4        and the problem that I have with this is what I


       5        said at the very beginning.  This is not -- this


       6        is -- this has positives and it has negatives.


       7             In my ideal world, we would defer this


       8        until we could get answers to some of these


       9        things.  As I understand it, we've got a


      10        transmittal problem because this is a package,


      11        part of a bigger thing, and so therein lies the


      12        problem.


      13             At the end of the day, I'm probably going


      14        to do something I'm going to regret, but I'm


      15        going to say that I don't have a problem passing


      16        it because, again, it is only a transmittal.


      17        And I hate doing that.  I don't like doing that


      18        at all.


      19             But at the end of the day, there are still


      20        a lot of unanswered questions that if we can't


      21        get proper answers to them, we can kill it at


      22        the final.  And that doesn't hold up everybody


      23        else that's tagged along under this semiannual


      24        package.


      25             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.  I appreciate your





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        candor.


       2             Shannon, have you had a chance to read that


       3        paragraph?


       4             MS. ELLER:  I have.


       5             I'm hesitant to tell you exactly what it


       6        means because my --


       7             MR. JOOST:  I didn't understand it when I


       8        read it.  I mean, it says --


       9             MS. ELLER:  Well, I would like to first --


      10        I'd like to true up the legal description as


      11        to -- as to the property that it applies to, and


      12        then I'd like to see if this is the final final


      13        or if there was any subsequent action under this


      14        case number, and then to find out if there's


      15        been any -- you know, any discussions between


      16        JTA and anybody who could enforce this


      17        particular restriction, to find out if anything


      18        has been done to remove the restriction.


      19             So I just -- I can't provide an answer


      20        as -- I mean, on its face it says that whatever


      21        the subject property is, that if the JTA


      22        transfers it, that they would, as a condition of


      23        that transfer, not allow certain uses.


      24             But, again, I think that it needs to be


      25        vetted and, you know, I just need to get the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        whole picture on what this applies to.


       2             MR. JOOST:  I guess I have one more


       3        question for Mr. Wilson of Gate Petroleum.


       4             Can you come up here, sir.


       5             (Mr. Wilson approaches the podium.)


       6             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.


       7             Were you aware of this possible


       8        restriction?


       9             MR. WILSON:  No, I wasn't.  I'm not clear


      10        on -- I'm kind of in the same boat with you on


      11        this restriction.  I'm not aware of what that


      12        is.


      13             (Mr. Frick approaches the podium.)


      14             MR. JOOST:  Would it be beneficial to you


      15        if we deferred this?  We could figure out what


      16        exactly this means or no?


      17             MR. WILSON:  Can I allow Drew Frick to


      18        speak to that?


      19             MR. JOOST:  Yes, please.


      20             MR. WILSON:  I think he's more clear on


      21        that subject than I am.


      22             MR. FRICK:  I can speak to that.


      23             Drew Frick.


      24             This has been going on for a number of


      25        years.  And actually when it started, we were





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        working with both the JTA and the McCormick


       2        family on this whole process.


       3             During the process the McCormick family and


       4        the JTA went forward with the takings on that


       5        piece, so they were aware of everything that we


       6        were doing.  And I can't speak for the McCormick


       7        family, but they were working well with us on


       8        this very plan.


       9             On the zoning, I think the Planning


      10        Department can talk about it being allowed as a


      11        secondary use in that category.  Again, they


      12        were aware of this before they drafted that


      13        document.


      14             On the liquor sales, my understanding of


      15        what they were trying to do -- and it's not very


      16        well drafted -- is to prevent a liquor store


      17        from coming to that site.  And we will vet all


      18        that out, and we can do that between now and the


      19        rezoning, but it was not to prevent a Gate


      20        station from going on that use and something


      21        that sells beer or wine only for off-premises


      22        consumption.


      23             So I can ask -- I don't have the document


      24        in front of me.


      25             MR. JOOST:  Well, it says -- and we'll





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        provide a copy, but, I mean, it says, quote, and


       2        service of all alcohol beverages, including


       3        liquor, beer, or wine for on-premises


       4        consumption or off-premises consumption.


       5             MR. FRICK:  Right, Councilman Joost.


       6             And my point on that -- and I think it's


       7        poorly drafted, but what they were trying to do


       8        is say something that serves all of those:  a


       9        liquor store that has liquor, beer, and wine, or


      10        a bar that has liquor, beer, and wine.  They


      11        weren't intending to prevent beer and wine.


      12             It needs to be clarified and we'll get the


      13        clarification.  Certainly we can't get a zoning


      14        and work with the JTA on this unless we've got


      15        support of --


      16             Really that agreement is between the


      17        McCormicks and the JTA.  And the McCormicks can


      18        enforce it against the JTA, and we'll have to


      19        work with them to get that clarification, but --


      20             MR. JOOST:  Let me ask you this:  If -- I


      21        mean to me it's pretty clear.  It says liquor,


      22        beer, or wine.  I can't really read intent


      23        between the lines.  I mean, it's kind of like


      24        the election trying to read doubles.  That's


      25        probably bad to bring up now.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             But I can't read the intent on this.  I


       2        mean, to me, it's black and white.  It says


       3        including liquor, beer, or wine.  So if you're


       4        not allowed to sell beer or wine, does that


       5        change your business model?


       6             MR. FRICK:  It will do two things:


       7             Obviously, before the PUD goes forward,


       8        we'll have to work that condition out.  We do


       9        sell beer or wine.  That's a big part of our


      10        business.


      11             And, again, the word that I look at


      12        there -- and it's not well drafted -- is the


      13        "all."  They were looking at something that


      14        encompasses all three of these things.


      15             The zoning code -- I think they may have


      16        picked some of it up from the zoning code.  It


      17        makes distinctions at times between the sale of


      18        all liquors versus beer or wine, and I think


      19        they were trying to catch that broader category.


      20             I understand your point in reading it, and


      21        you can read it on a plain face way to say it


      22        looks like they wanted to exclude everything.


      23             We'll have to work that out with the


      24        McCormick family.  Again, that's an agreement


      25        between the McCormicks and the JTA.  And we will





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        be working with the JTA on acquiring a portion


       2        of this property to do the Gate station, and


       3        that Gate station we intend to have beer or


       4        wine.


       5             So the PUD that gets approved, they could


       6        certainly have beer or wine.  It would put us


       7        and you, rightly so, in a position where you


       8        approve something that's not allowed with what


       9        the JTA agreed with the McCormicks.  JTA would


      10        have to answer that, we'd have to answer to that


      11        and fix that problem, but we're going to do it


      12        well before then is my point, and we'll get


      13        clarification to that agreement between those


      14        two parties because, again, the McCormicks were


      15        side by side with us whenever we started this


      16        process, as well as the JTA.  Those three


      17        parties were working together towards this


      18        goal.


      19             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  I got you.


      20             One last question to legal.  I may think of


      21        something else.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  You said one last question


      23        three times already.


      24             MR. JOOST:  Yeah.  One last, last, last


      25        question.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             When you say "conveyance," does that mean


       2        it's actually restricted in the deed and title


       3        of the land and, therefore, at that point going


       4        forward you can no longer sell beer or wine


       5        because that's a restriction that the buyer


       6        agreed to and now that becomes part of the land


       7        deed or title?


       8             MS. ELLER:  Well, I think that, as Drew


       9        mentioned, it's poorly drafted, but I think the


      10        most restrictive reading would be that -- when


      11        it says any use or conveyance of the surplus


      12        land will be limited and restricted, I think the


      13        words "limited and restricted" could be read to


      14        put a deed restriction on it so that whoever


      15        acquired the land would be prevented from doing


      16        the things that are enumerated.


      17             But, as Mr. Frick mentioned, this is an


      18        agreement between JTA and the McCormicks, and so


      19        those two parties have the right to modify this


      20        upon agreement of those two parties.


      21             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Clear as mud because


      22        it's not perfect -- it's not clear to me that


      23        the JTA and the McCormicks have modified it.


      24             MS. ELLER:  You are correct.


      25             There's nothing that we have before us





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        tonight to confirm that the conditions, however


       2        poorly drafted in this particular document, have


       3        been modified.  All you have is the commitment


       4        from Mr. Frick that they've all been working


       5        closely together and that that issue will have


       6        to be ultimately resolved before this committee


       7        and the council makes their final decisions on


       8        the uses and the zoning.


       9             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And, I'm sorry, but it


      10        just keeps going on.


      11             Are we setting ourselves up for possible


      12        litigation down the road if we continue forward


      13        with this?


      14             MS. ELLER:  I don't think at this point


      15        we're setting ourselves up for litigation


      16        because, again, it's just a transmittal and the


      17        neighborhood commercial land use designation is


      18        just a policy decision regarding future uses on


      19        the piece of dirt.


      20             Ultimately, when you do approve a


      21        particular land use on adoption with its


      22        companion rezoning, you'll be taking a look at


      23        the uses.


      24             You know, whether or not it's appropriate


      25        for you to permit a use if you know that there's





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        some outside document that prevents it -- you


       2        know, it's not as if by approving it you're


       3        guaranteeing that it will happen.  But, again,


       4        it is an issue that will have to be resolved


       5        because, as I understand from the discussions


       6        here, you wouldn't want to grant a use through a


       7        PUD zoning that you know is somehow prohibited


       8        by this other document between two other


       9        parties.


      10             MR. JOOST:  One more question.


      11             Mr. Hainline --


      12             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)


      13             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes, sir.


      14             MR. JOOST:  -- would you rather proceed or


      15        defer until we get this straighten out?  Because


      16        I don't like doing something I'm not totally


      17        clear about.  And then if later on we go down


      18        this process and at some point we're going to


      19        get to the hour and to the point where we either


      20        do it or we don't do it -- and now we've had an


      21        11th hour change to the business model of Gate


      22        Petroleum, you guys want to go back and


      23        reconsider this situation knowing that there's


      24        probably -- I would say at this point at least a


      25        possibility, if not a probability, we're not





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        going to allow beer or wine sales at this


       2        location.


       3             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Joost, I would answer


       4        that pretty much the same way as I stated at the


       5        outset.


       6             We don't view this transmittal vote as an


       7        approval of the station there, as an approval of


       8        a PUD, as an approval -- as an adoption of an


       9        amendment.  We view this as a transmittal, which


      10        is a step in the process in which we continue


      11        discussions with Mr. Bishop; with the neighbors;


      12        with JTA; and, if necessary, having looked at


      13        all the legal documents, with the McCormicks and


      14        the JTA.


      15             This is just a step in the process, and a


      16        deferral of this would slow everything down for


      17        six months.  It wouldn't -- it wouldn't help us


      18        resolve or not resolve the issue one way or the


      19        other.  It would just be another slow-down in


      20        the process that has been slow to begin with.


      21             So we view this transmittal vote as simply


      22        a step in the process.  That is an issue which


      23        we will need to resolve.  If it doesn't resolve


      24        in a way that's satisfactory for us, we'll


      25        either withdraw the amendment or appear with





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        some modification at adoption time.


       2             But this is just a step in the process, and


       3        the way we look at that is one of many issues,


       4        in addition to our continuing discussions with


       5        Mr. Bishop and the neighbors to resolve that.


       6             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  I think that's -- that's


       7        fair enough.  I just don't want anybody to come


       8        back -- say we do move forward, and then come


       9        back in six months and say, well, we really


      10        hadn't anticipated this in --


      11             MR. HAINLINE:  No, sir.  Clearly --


      12        clearly, we're now -- and Mr. Frick was on


      13        notice of that provision.


      14             And when I was doing my reading of the


      15        conditions, you may have noticed that at the


      16        beginning, not only did we say the conditions


      17        that are in this, but we understand there may be


      18        additional conditions that Mr. Bishop, the