1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE

 

       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING

 

       3                         COMMITTEE

 

       4

 

       5

 

       6             Proceedings held on Monday, November 3,

 

       7   2008, commencing at 5:03 p.m., City Hall, Council

 

       8   Chambers, 1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before

 

       9   Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State

 

      10   of Florida at Large.

 

      11

 

      12   PRESENT:

 

      13        ART GRAHAM, Chair.

                STEPHEN JOOST, Vice Chair.

      14        JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.

                RAY HOLT, Committee Member.

      15        JACK WEBB, Committee Member.

                DON REDMAN, Committee Member.

      16

 

      17   ALSO PRESENT:

 

      18        BILL BISHOP, City Council Member.

                MICHAEL CORRIGAN, City Council Member.

      19        WARREN JONES, City Council Member.

                CLAY YARBOROUGH, City Council Member.

      20        JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

                SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

      21        BILL KILLINGSWORTH, Planning and Dev Dept.

                STEVE SMITH, Planning and Development Dept.

      22        JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.

                SHANNON ELLER, Office of General Counsel.

      23        DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.

                MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.

      24        MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.

 

      25                         -  -  -

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           2

 

 

       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S

 

       2   November 3, 2008                        5:03 p.m.

 

       3                         -  -  -

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good afternoon, everybody.

 

       5             Let the record show it is 5 o'clockish.  It

 

       6        is Monday, November 3rd.  This is the Land Use

 

       7        and Zoning Committee meeting.

 

       8             If we start over here on our right with

 

       9        Mr. Crofts, let's introduce ourselves.

 

      10             MR. CROFTS:  John Crofts, Planning and

 

      11        Development Department.

 

      12             MR. KELLY:  Sean Kelly, Planning and

 

      13        Development.

 

      14             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Bill Killingsworth,

 

      15        Planning and Development.

 

      16             MR. McEACHIN:  Joel McEachin, Planning and

 

      17        Development.

 

      18             MS. ELLER:  Shannon Eller, General

 

      19        Counsel's Office.

 

      20             MR. TEAL:  Jason Teal, General Counsel's

 

      21        Office.

 

      22             MR. REDMAN:  Don Redman, Council

 

      23        District 4.

 

      24             DR. GAFFNEY:  Councilman Gaffney,

 

      25        District 7.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           3

 

 

       1             MR. HOLT:  Ray Holt, District 11.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Art Graham, District 13.

 

       3             MR. JOOST:  Stephen Joost, Group 3

 

       4        at-large.

 

       5             MR. WEBB:  Jack Webb, City Council,

 

       6        District 6.

 

       7             MR. CORRIGAN:  Michael --

 

       8             MR. WEBB:  Corrigan.

 

       9             MR. CORRIGAN:  -- Corrigan, City Council,

 

      10        District 14.

 

      11             Thank you, Mr. Webb.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let the record show that

 

      13        Richard Clark has an excused absence, and I

 

      14        think we're ready to roll.

 

      15             As our practice normally is, if we have

 

      16        visiting councilmembers, such as Mr. Corrigan,

 

      17        here, we'll take their bills up first, and then

 

      18        we'll do everything else pretty much in order.

 

      19             So, Mr. Corrigan, what is your wish?

 

      20             MR. CORRIGAN:  I'll do it either way, sir.

 

      21             I have two items.  Item number 7 and item

 

      22        number 80 on your agenda.  The item number 7 is

 

      23        an appeal and item number 80 is another bill

 

      24        that I have.  I'll take either order you'd like

 

      25        to do it in, Mr. Chairman.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  You said 80 and number 7,

 

       2        correct?

 

       3             MR. CORRIGAN:  That is correct.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let's go ahead and do

 

       5        number 80.

 

       6             Turn to page 20.  Get that out of the way,

 

       7        send some people home.

 

       8             2008-923.  We have an amendment.

 

       9             MR. HOLT:  Move the amendment.

 

      10             MR. WEBB:  Second.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment has been moved

 

      12        and seconded.

 

      13             Any discussion on the amendment?

 

      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Can we hear the amendment?

 

      16             MS. ELLER:  Mr. Chairman, the amendment

 

      17        will be your recommendation regarding the

 

      18        special magistrate's recommended action to the

 

      19        council, and I believe Dylan Reingold is here to

 

      20        explain what your options are, and I think

 

      21        Councilman Corrigan also has a presentation for

 

      22        you-all to consider on the amendment.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Reingold.

 

      24             MR. REINGOLD:  To the committee,

 

      25        essentially right now what you have before you

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           5

 

 

       1        is a special magistrate hearing.  And, as

 

       2        Ms. Eller stated, Councilmember Corrigan, I

 

       3        think, is going to kind of explain the history.

 

       4        I don't want to steal his thunder.

 

       5             But what the amendment would be from the

 

       6        committee is to either accept, reject, or accept

 

       7        with modifications the special magistrate's

 

       8        recommendation.

 

       9             And, with that, I guess I will turn it over

 

      10        to the councilmember.

 

      11             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      12             I'll give a little bit of background since

 

      13        a number of you on this committee weren't here,

 

      14        and I'll try to be as brief as possible.

 

      15             This particular issue is located at the

 

      16        intersection of Herschel Street and Lakeside

 

      17        Drive in my district.  Back in 2004, we did

 

      18        months of negotiations with the developer and

 

      19        the neighbors and finally passed a PUD

 

      20        application that was approved by this council in

 

      21        2004.

 

      22             The main focus -- one of the main focuses

 

      23        of it was the height of the finished building.

 

      24        There is a commercial building located just next

 

      25        to this development that has a maximum roof

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           6

 

 

       1        height of 55 feet.  That was an area of great

 

       2        concern during our negotiations of this PUD back

 

       3        and forth.

 

       4             We eventually -- this council passed an

 

       5        amendment -- or passed the PUD that capped the

 

       6        height of the buildings at 55 feet.  The -- what

 

       7        we considered the height at that point was the

 

       8        peak of the roof.

 

       9             We found out during our negotiations and

 

      10        after the PUD was verified that that's actually

 

      11        the eave height of the building, so the actual

 

      12        buildings being built, the peak of the roof is

 

      13        higher than 55 feet.  So that's quite upsetting

 

      14        to the neighborhood because they thought they

 

      15        were getting one thing and now they're getting

 

      16        another.

 

      17             Then the developer has -- now has three

 

      18        buildings.  Originally, there was one building,

 

      19        now has three buildings, and he filed a minor

 

      20        modification request to increase the one

 

      21        building to 65 feet, so even 10 feet higher than

 

      22        they were already.

 

      23             The Planning Commission reviewed the

 

      24        documentation and denied the minor

 

      25        modification.  This LUZ Committee then upheld

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           7

 

 

       1        the Planning Commission's decision to deny that

 

       2        minor modification, then Council supported the

 

       3        LUZ's work.

 

       4             Now, the developer had sought review by a

 

       5        special magistrate in a special magistrate

 

       6        proceeding.  The special magistrate looked at

 

       7        the facts of the case and he said that the City

 

       8        should grant the minor modification to allow the

 

       9        increase of height by another story on that

 

      10        building.

 

      11             He said that no further changes to the PUD

 

      12        should happen unless there's extraordinary

 

      13        circumstances.  There have been a number of

 

      14        changes in this PUD in the process, and he says

 

      15        no more, no more changes after this point.

 

      16             And the part that really has some concern

 

      17        that this committee should really focus on is

 

      18        that they reviewed the legality of a

 

      19        councilmember's involvement in a PUD

 

      20        verification process.

 

      21             If you're a district councilperson, you

 

      22        know that when a PUD comes back for substantial

 

      23        compliance to what we passed, we review it and

 

      24        then have a chance to send comments to them.

 

      25        And the special magistrate really questioned

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           8

 

 

       1        that and said that that was -- he thought above

 

       2        what we should be allowed to be able to do, and

 

       3        issued a 26-page order.  He substituted his

 

       4        opinion over the City Council's on the impact of

 

       5        the view corridors and everything else that will

 

       6        happen because of this increased height.

 

       7             His decision was based on the expectation

 

       8        that the developer had a conversation with me.

 

       9        After I initially questioned the PUD

 

      10        verification on this, I met with the developer

 

      11        and one of the neighbors to talk about what --

 

      12        what I thought the issues were, and the

 

      13        developer thought that that was the final

 

      14        ruling.  They thought that I was the -- they

 

      15        called me a "super councilmember" as part of

 

      16        this process, and I didn't have a

 

      17        properly-noticed public meeting with the

 

      18        developer.

 

      19             So really what I had was just some opinion

 

      20        conversations, which I then disclosed during

 

      21        this -- the appeal process.  They said that the

 

      22        councilmember's conversation shouldn't trump the

 

      23        council and the council's decision, the PUD

 

      24        deal.

 

      25             And he also said in the order that he

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           9

 

 

       1        confused -- that in the order he presented, he

 

       2        confused the minor modification process with

 

       3        what -- the PUD verification process that we all

 

       4        look at as district councilpeople.  So he really

 

       5        had some confusion in that and probably didn't

 

       6        totally understand the processes that we used.

 

       7             So having said all that, there's several

 

       8        things that I'd wish this committee would do.  I

 

       9        would like this committee to reject the increase

 

      10        in height as the special magistrate suggested.

 

      11        I'd like to accept his recommendation as to

 

      12        limit future changes in this PUD.

 

      13             The reason you do a PUD -- and I don't have

 

      14        to remind this group, it's a planned unit

 

      15        development.  Well, if you're still planning,

 

      16        they probably shouldn't have passed the PUD, so

 

      17        they need to stop making changes to this PUD

 

      18        that was approved four years ago.

 

      19             And I'm -- I regret -- probably

 

      20        hesitantly -- probably accept his recommendation

 

      21        in part to review the legality of our PUD

 

      22        verification process.

 

      23             They brought up some pretty good points I

 

      24        think we need to consider, and I personally have

 

      25        been and will continue to work with the General

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           10

 

 

       1        Counsel's Office to do legislation to address

 

       2        the issues that were raised in the hearing, and

 

       3        then I'll bring that legislation back to this

 

       4        committee prior to introduction to be able to

 

       5        have your -- this committee's opinion on it

 

       6        before I introduce it to the full council.

 

       7             So there's four things -- or five things,

 

       8        Mr. Chairman.  Well, really four actions:

 

       9        Reject the height; accept his recommendation to

 

      10        limit changes; accept his recommendation to

 

      11        review the legality of our PUD verification

 

      12        process; and then, finally, work on legislation

 

      13        to address the issues that were raised at the

 

      14        hearing.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, Mr. Corrigan, I can

 

      16        tell you, because I lived the whole site plan

 

      17        verification thing -- I think it started in my

 

      18        district, and it kind of mushroomed from there,

 

      19        so -- and on top of that, I think you are a

 

      20        super councilmember.

 

      21             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  That being said, committee

 

      23        members, we have a request for -- I think it was

 

      24        four amendments, or we'll call it the Corrigan

 

      25        amendment.  But since he is not on this

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           11

 

 

       1        committee --

 

       2             MR. WEBB:  Move the amendment.

 

       3             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and a second

 

       5        on the Corrigan amendment.

 

       6             We'll call it the Webb amendment.

 

       7             And we are -- discussions on the Webb

 

       8        amendment?

 

       9             Mr. Joost.

 

      10             MR. JOOST:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      11             Through legal, the magistrate recommended

 

      12        the increase in height, and I guess what I'm

 

      13        kind of reading between the lines is that he

 

      14        implied that there must be an issue with some of

 

      15        the legality of where we came down on this, and

 

      16        that -- you know, and that's why we should be

 

      17        reviewing these legal issues.

 

      18             If we go against the magistrate's

 

      19        recommendation, what are the legal implications

 

      20        of our actions?

 

      21             MR. REINGOLD:  To Councilmember Joost,

 

      22        first off -- there were a lot of parts to that

 

      23        question.  I'll try to deal with them as best I

 

      24        can in the order that they were presented.

 

      25             First off, the first question that the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           12

 

 

       1        special magistrate had was -- the special

 

       2        magistrate was given the job of determining

 

       3        whether the decision of not allowing the

 

       4        increase in height was unreasonable or unfairly

 

       5        burdened the use of the property.

 

       6             In the special magistrate's order, the

 

       7        special magistrate talks about how that there

 

       8        will be a partial but minimal viewshed blockage

 

       9        for a few units, but such restriction is not

 

      10        significant given, you know, the other units in

 

      11        the building.

 

      12             On top of that, though, the special

 

      13        magistrate did state that MLG/Ortega had a

 

      14        reasonable expectation that the City's Planning

 

      15        and Development Department and Councilmember

 

      16        Corrigan would not oppose the height increase.

 

      17             Additionally, the special magistrate

 

      18        discussed the issue that the actions of the City

 

      19        representatives are an important consideration

 

      20        in this proceeding.

 

      21             So there was kind of a combination, as

 

      22        Councilmember Corrigan talked about.  His first

 

      23        thought was maybe it has a minimal impact on the

 

      24        view corridor, but also to look at the

 

      25        additional actions of the City's representatives

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           13

 

 

       1        in coming up with a determination as to whether

 

       2        ultimately the decision of the City was

 

       3        unreasonable and unfairly burdened the property.

 

       4             Now, to go to the question of the future,

 

       5        sort of where we go from here, is -- first off,

 

       6        I will tell you there is a pending writ of

 

       7        certiorari petition that has been filed, that

 

       8        has been put on hold for the determination of

 

       9        the special magistrate proceeding.

 

      10             That simply would require an answer brief

 

      11        from the City.  The issues at hand in that case

 

      12        would be whether we offered due process; whether

 

      13        there was proper notice; whether we applied the

 

      14        correct law; and, finally, whether there was

 

      15        substantial competent evidence on the record to

 

      16        justify the decision.

 

      17             That's one aspect of future legality.  And

 

      18        it's not a damages claim; it's just a simple,

 

      19        straight-up review of the record.

 

      20             After that -- I mean, the applicants

 

      21        certainly have the right to file whatever

 

      22        other -- other lawsuits they may care to bring.

 

      23        It's kind of an awkward position for me to

 

      24        advise you as to what lawsuits they could

 

      25        bring.  They could bring a Bert Harris Act

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           14

 

 

       1        claim, they could bring a takings claim.  I

 

       2        mean, there are other, you know, options

 

       3        available to them.

 

       4             But those are sort of where we are, how we

 

       5        got here, and where they could go from there.

 

       6             MR. JOOST:  Just as a follow-up, why did

 

       7        the magistrate come to a conclusion that the

 

       8        developer or the condominium people would have a

 

       9        reasonable expectation that this height

 

      10        restriction would not be imposed?

 

      11             I mean, why would they -- was there

 

      12        existing evidence or existing cases before where

 

      13        we had allowed this and therefore they have a

 

      14        reasonable expectation of this height?  I mean,

 

      15        why would the magistrate say that?

 

      16             MR. REINGOLD:  To Councilmember Joost, to

 

      17        go into the history of the case a little bit

 

      18        more, to answer your question, what essentially

 

      19        happened -- and Councilman Corrigan was

 

      20        getting -- or addressing this issue -- was

 

      21        during the PUD verification process, the

 

      22        Planning Department had rejected the plans that

 

      23        had been brought to the Planning Department.

 

      24        There were supposed to be three buildings, one

 

      25        at 65 feet in height, one at 55 feet in height,

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           15

 

 

       1        and another one at 55 feet in height.

 

       2             The Planning Department met -- the

 

       3        applicant met with the Planning Department and

 

       4        also the councilmember, and the Planning

 

       5        Department or the councilmember made clear to

 

       6        them, well, if you don't like it, you can come

 

       7        in for a PUD to PUD verif- -- you know, I mean,

 

       8        rezoning.  You can go for a minor mod.  You

 

       9        know, there are aspects of this that you can

 

      10        do.  There are processes that you can utilize to

 

      11        change the PUD.

 

      12             The applicant talked to the Planning

 

      13        Department and Councilman Corrigan and said,

 

      14        well, I'll do 65 feet on one building, 55 feet

 

      15        on another, and 45 feet on a third building.

 

      16        And they said, and we'll come in for a minor mod

 

      17        for the increase in height for 65 feet.  From

 

      18        the record information, it appears that the

 

      19        Planning Department had agreed we'd support you

 

      20        on the increase of height from 55 to 65 feet.

 

      21             Councilman Corrigan has stated all along, I

 

      22        stated this was a minor mod; this doesn't come

 

      23        to me; this doesn't come to the City Council;

 

      24        that's a Planning Commission decision.

 

      25             And the applicants have essentially stated

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           16

 

 

       1        we felt that that meant that Councilmember

 

       2        Corrigan would support us.

 

       3             I'm of the opinion -- and I made this case

 

       4        very clear at the special magistrate hearing --

 

       5        even if the councilmember had said he would

 

       6        support it, he certainly doesn't have the right

 

       7        to bind the City Council to any future decision.

 

       8             So, in my opinion, they had been -- it had

 

       9        not been a justifiable expectation on their

 

      10        part, knowing that if it -- it was going to go

 

      11        to Planning Commission.  And then, if appealed,

 

      12        it would have to go to City Council and it would

 

      13        go to 19 council members and not one.

 

      14             That was kind of the issue with respect to

 

      15        the expectations of the developer.

 

      16             MR. JOOST:  And I'm sure Councilman

 

      17        Corrigan would like to speak for himself.

 

      18             On the other two, on the 55 and 45, those

 

      19        buildings, have those -- I'm assuming that's

 

      20        passed and they're ready to go on to those two?

 

      21             MR. REINGOLD:  They've actually almost

 

      22        completed building the 45-foot building.  I

 

      23        think they're under construction on the 55, and

 

      24        the whole issue right now is whether the final

 

      25        building will be 55 or 65 feet.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           17

 

 

       1             MR. JOOST:  And my last question would be,

 

       2        in your vast experience, how often do we go

 

       3        against what a judge/magistrate recommends in

 

       4        our council history?

 

       5             MR. REINGOLD:  In the three-and-a-half

 

       6        years that I've been here, I think this is the

 

       7        first one that I've seen -- that I've been

 

       8        involved with under Section 70.51.  I don't --

 

       9        so I don't recall us going either way with

 

      10        respect to a decision in this regard.

 

      11             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan.

 

      13             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      14             I'd just like to further clarify to

 

      15        Councilmember Joost and the committee, there was

 

      16        a great deal of discussion about this meeting

 

      17        that the developer and a neighbor and I had.

 

      18        And, as Mr. Reingold said, they asked at that

 

      19        meeting to the Planning Department, would you

 

      20        support this minor modification of 65 feet?  And

 

      21        the Planning Department's reaction was, I don't

 

      22        think we would oppose that.

 

      23             They turned and asked me, and I said -- and

 

      24        I would swear to this on a Bible under oath, I

 

      25        said, I believe those go to the Planning

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           18

 

 

       1        Commission.  The Planning Department verified

 

       2        that, and then they -- I said, so, therefore, I

 

       3        don't need to have an answer because it does not

 

       4        come to us.

 

       5             I knew -- I know the law that I operate

 

       6        under.  I knew that if I took a position there,

 

       7        it would have jeopardized my ability to come to

 

       8        LUZ and discuss it or take a position there, so

 

       9        I did not take a position at that meeting, and

 

      10        now I'm glad I didn't because I still have the

 

      11        ability to come and talk to you.

 

      12             Remember, this started out as one building

 

      13        at the maximum height of 55 feet.  It's now

 

      14        turning to three buildings with the 45, 55, and

 

      15        now they're asking for a 65 foot height.  It's

 

      16        the fourth time that this committee has had to

 

      17        take time and taking time away from other issues

 

      18        you could be discussing to discuss this.

 

      19             So I appreciate your patience and your

 

      20        understanding and hope that I have your support.

 

      21             Thank you.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan, did you have a

 

      23        town meeting when you first dealt with this

 

      24        entire piece of property?

 

      25             MR. CORRIGAN:  Councilmember Graham, we had

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           19

 

 

       1        a town meeting.  We also had another meeting the

 

       2        night of LUZ.  We went into the Renaissance Room

 

       3        for all the parties to come in kind of separate

 

       4        for them to air some differences.  It was

 

       5        deferred several times.  I think there was a

 

       6        total of about 14 meetings that took place

 

       7        leading up to this with various different

 

       8        entities trying to come up with a compromise, so

 

       9        it's been very well vetted.

 

      10             The problem is the people that are being

 

      11        cut out now is the public.  The developers had

 

      12        all these other special meetings and everything

 

      13        else in this case and the public has never had

 

      14        much of a chance to give their input again.

 

      15             If they'd done what I suggested originally,

 

      16        which was a PUD to PUD change to do the changes,

 

      17        we wouldn't be sitting here having this

 

      18        discussion tonight.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Corrigan.

 

      20             Well, I know this is -- we're not going to

 

      21        fix the whole PUD process in this -- this bill

 

      22        that's before us, but, you know, any one of you

 

      23        council members that had a town meeting and

 

      24        talking about a rezoning understand, when you

 

      25        walk out of that town meeting, all those

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           20

 

 

       1        constituents think that they made a deal and

 

       2        they've worked out what this PUD is going to

 

       3        look like.

 

       4             And when that PUD changes on them, they

 

       5        look at you thinking that you have lied to them

 

       6        and you've misled them, and so that's why this

 

       7        process is just -- you know, it's a great

 

       8        process if you can lock it down.

 

       9             And that's also why we went round and round

 

      10        and round with the whole site plan verification,

 

      11        because that's one of those things when you work

 

      12        it out and the constituents think that they cut

 

      13        a deal and it's going to be a certain height,

 

      14        it's going to be so far from the road, there's

 

      15        going to be so much foliage, it's going to be

 

      16        this and that, you know.  And if that doesn't

 

      17        come out that way, you are the one that lied to

 

      18        them, you're the one that misled them.

 

      19             So I can understand where Mr. Corrigan is

 

      20        coming through with this thing, and he wants to

 

      21        make sure that his constituents get what they

 

      22        agreed to.

 

      23             That all being said, I don't see anybody on

 

      24        the queue, so we are on the Webb amendment.

 

      25             All in favor say aye.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           21

 

 

       1             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

       3             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       5        approved the amendment.

 

       6             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended.

 

       7             MR. JOOST:  Second.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill has been moved and

 

       9        seconded as amended.

 

      10             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      13        ballot.

 

      14             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      15             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      16             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             MR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      20             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      22        the vote.

 

      23             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      24             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nays.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           22

 

 

       1        approved 2008-923 as amended.

 

       2             Now we're going back to which page,

 

       3        Mr. Corrigan?

 

       4             MR. CORRIGAN:  Mr. Chairman, page 4,

 

       5        item 7.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Committee members, page 4,

 

       7        item 7.  We have an appeal.

 

       8             That being the case, we are going to let

 

       9        the applicant come forward and give his song and

 

      10        dance on why he thinks he needs what he needs.

 

      11             Let's do the ex-parte before the appeal.

 

      12             Mr. Joost.

 

      13             MR. JOOST:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.

 

      14             I had ex-parte communications with

 

      15        Mr. Bajalia and Mr. Skinner on November 3rd at

 

      16        the location, and we discussed various aspects

 

      17        of the project.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Corrigan.

 

      19             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      20             I had ex-parte on this issue about a year

 

      21        and a half ago or maybe just over a year ago

 

      22        with both Mr. Bajalia and Riverside Avondale

 

      23        Preservation Organization that this area is --

 

      24        this appeal is in.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Webb.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           23

 

 

       1             MR. WEBB:  Likewise, Mr. Chairman, I

 

       2        declare ex-parte.  Approximately a month ago, I

 

       3        had a conversation with the applicant in this

 

       4        matter regarding the quality of the vinyl

 

       5        siding.

 

       6             Thank you.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Dr. Gaffney.

 

       8             DR. GAFFNEY:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.

 

       9             I wish to declare I had a meeting with the

 

      10        applicant and also with Riverside historic

 

      11        preservation, ex-parte communication.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman.

 

      13             MR. REDMAN:  Yes.  I'd like to declare

 

      14        ex-parte communication I had approximately a

 

      15        month ago with the applicant and residents of

 

      16        the Avondale association.

 

      17             Thank you.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  And I will also say that I

 

      19        met with the applicant, and I've also met with

 

      20        the -- some representatives of RAP on this issue

 

      21        as well.

 

      22             That all being said --

 

      23             Okay.  Mr. Yarborough.

 

      24             MR. YARBOROUGH:  I didn't know this was up

 

      25        tonight.  I should mention, though, I had

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           24

 

 

       1        ex-parte with Mr. Ernie Isaac briefly about this

 

       2        over breakfast on Memorial Day, May 26th, about

 

       3        7:30 in the morning, just very briefly, but we

 

       4        did talk about it.

 

       5             Thank you.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.

 

       7             And, by the way, welcome.

 

       8             That all being said, Mr. Bajalia, we will

 

       9        let you give your side of the story, and then

 

      10        we'll let anybody else that came to speak to

 

      11        this get three minutes to speak, and then we'll

 

      12        let you rebut, and then we'll close the public

 

      13        hearing and we'll go on from there.

 

      14             That all being said, we will open the

 

      15        public hearing.

 

      16             Go ahead.

 

      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      19             My name is George Bajalia.  I live at 4638

 

      20        Swileon Lane in Jacksonville.

 

      21             I'm a Jacksonville native, have been -- as

 

      22        many of you are and love Jacksonville and like

 

      23        to do anything to help serve and improve

 

      24        Jacksonville.

 

      25             The building in question is in the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           25

 

 

       1        Riverside area, in between Park and King and

 

       2        St. Vincent's Hospital on King Street.  I've

 

       3        owned the building since January 1982, nearly

 

       4        27 years.  And I've lived on and off in the

 

       5        Riverside/Avondale area my -- for much of my

 

       6        life.

 

       7             And I do agree with the Historic

 

       8        Commission's desire to maintain the integrity of

 

       9        the area, yet have alternative views as to how

 

      10        to do that as many historic areas have done

 

      11        around the United States.

 

      12             The building -- you'll see -- the area may

 

      13        be difficult.  I don't know if you can see it,

 

      14        but I -- there's a handout that you have that

 

      15        shows the zoning -- Riverside Avenue zoning

 

      16        overlay map, which identifies where the building

 

      17        is, and the recent zoning overlay map that was

 

      18        done earlier this year -- which there was a

 

      19        town hall meeting with Mr. Corrigan, Mr. Kelly,

 

      20        and many others there -- that identifies the

 

      21        property in an office/commercial area, not in a

 

      22        residential historic area.

 

      23             As I said, I've owned it for a long time,

 

      24        since 1982.  It currently serves as lower price

 

      25        apartments.  And my desire is to upgrade the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           26

 

 

       1        property to a -- more of a professional use,

 

       2        which is what the area has, and at a cost

 

       3        effective way.

 

       4             And the vinyl siding, the product has

 

       5        improved over the years.  I'm sure -- I believe

 

       6        there are some people here that could talk

 

       7        specifically about the product.  I have a couple

 

       8        of samples of the product that I'm happy to pass

 

       9        around.

 

      10             And it's a cost effective way to improve

 

      11        the building, to provide lower cost maintenance

 

      12        over the life of the product, over -- and also

 

      13        for me to convert -- to have enough funds to

 

      14        convert the inside of the building.

 

      15             As mentioned, it's located on King Street

 

      16        in a commercial area.  The building includes

 

      17        major additions.  I -- many years before I

 

      18        bought it, probably two-thirds of the exterior

 

      19        of the building was -- was modified.  The front

 

      20        area was modified, the back area was modified,

 

      21        and some of the side areas were modified.

 

      22             So the siding that we're referring to here,

 

      23        much of the siding is not original historic

 

      24        siding.  It's -- it's siding that was put in in

 

      25        the -- I don't even know when it was put in.  It

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           27

 

 

       1        was before I owned it in 1982, but it's not

 

       2        original.

 

       3             In 2006, I made some improvements to the

 

       4        building because there was a lot of -- a lot of

 

       5        wood that was deteriorating.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  We can't see that from

 

       7        there.  You'll probably have to put it back on

 

       8        that easel.

 

       9             Thank you, sir.

 

      10             MR. BAJALIA:  The top photos, which are

 

      11        also, I believe, in your slide -- probably

 

      12        slide 2.  Slide 2, 9, and 10 is the building

 

      13        before I made the improvements.  You'll see that

 

      14        there's a lot of the wood deteriorating and the

 

      15        soffits and the fascia board and some of the

 

      16        siding.

 

      17             And I made a number of improvements to the

 

      18        building.  And in 2006, early 2007, the

 

      19        bottom -- the bottom three photos are the result

 

      20        of those improvements, which basically is the

 

      21        best you get with the improvements that I made.

 

      22             And I've researched the product and found

 

      23        that the product and the installation of the

 

      24        product is very high standards, much higher

 

      25        standards than in 1998 when the rules changed

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           28

 

 

       1        and did not allow vinyl siding.  I think the

 

       2        rules changed here in 1998, and the product has

 

       3        improved significantly since then.

 

       4             I believe all of you many have received a

 

       5        package from the Vinyl Siding Institute, which

 

       6        I've passed around some information as well.

 

       7             The improvements I'm requesting is a triple

 

       8        vinyl clapboard, which meets high quality

 

       9        standards.  And here's an example (indicating).

 

      10        I'll pass around an example of what these look

 

      11        like.

 

      12             Once you see that, you'll see that the

 

      13        vinyl siding -- the manufacturers have put a lot

 

      14        of research and development and a lot of work

 

      15        into trying to provide siding that meets many

 

      16        historical standards.

 

      17             There's also trim and -- trim and millwork

 

      18        that you also have in your handouts that also

 

      19        improve the architectural integrity of the area,

 

      20        which I intend to do as well.

 

      21             Nearly all of King Street, from College

 

      22        Street to the river, are commercial buildings.

 

      23        And this is one of the only buildings that's not

 

      24        commercial, and I intend to -- and it's

 

      25        currently zoned for office or residential

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           29

 

 

       1        multifamily, and I intend to eventually convert

 

       2        it to a professional use.

 

       3             Approximately eight buildings within two

 

       4        blocks of my building have vinyl or aluminum

 

       5        siding on it.  You can refer to slides 5 through

 

       6        8 in the PowerPoint presentation that you have.

 

       7        And that was all done before 1998, before the

 

       8        guidelines came into effect.

 

       9             And as you can see in almost every case,

 

      10        the -- ten years later the product is in good

 

      11        condition.  And if you compare it to my

 

      12        building, it's in much better condition than my

 

      13        fooling with the siding that's deteriorating.

 

      14             I note -- I'd like to note slide 4 in your

 

      15        handout shows the exterior consistencies which

 

      16        is the reason for my request.  Since most of the

 

      17        building is not a historic structure, the

 

      18        product, the wood does not maintain very well,

 

      19        and I'll have to continually repair and replace

 

      20        the siding as I upgrade the building

 

      21        continually, probably every three to five years,

 

      22        which is really not cost effective.

 

      23             I'm almost done.

 

      24             You'll see on this -- on this board and

 

      25        also in -- I believe it's slide -- slides both

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           30

 

 

       1        9 and 10.  I compare a rendering of the building

 

       2        with siding only on it, with no architectural

 

       3        trim, to the building as it was before the

 

       4        improvements and the building as it is today.

 

       5        And you can see that, at least in my view, it's

 

       6        a much better looking product and probably more

 

       7        particularly meets the areas -- of upgrading the

 

       8        area and, once again, cost effective to make

 

       9        sense for me to do other things with the

 

      10        property.

 

      11             One of the other things I've researched

 

      12        is -- all the buildings here (indicating) and

 

      13        maybe one or two others.  I compared the value

 

      14        of those buildings to the value of buildings

 

      15        within two or three buildings of similar size

 

      16        with wood siding.  And at least half the cases,

 

      17        the value of the building with vinyl or aluminum

 

      18        siding is greater than the value of the building

 

      19        with wood siding.

 

      20             And I have a handout, if you're interested,

 

      21        to show you each of those buildings and the

 

      22        value.

 

      23             As I mentioned, the cost of this product is

 

      24        much less than just repair and replacing certain

 

      25        pieces of the wood siding.  And what I estimate

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           31

 

 

       1        from some contractors' estimates, it's half the

 

       2        cost.

 

       3             Today, if I were to repair and replace some

 

       4        of the bad wood on the building versus apply a

 

       5        quality vinyl siding product with architectural

 

       6        features, it will probably be -- it will be

 

       7        approximately one half the cost of the repair

 

       8        and replacement of wood, which I'll have to do

 

       9        in three to five years as well.

 

      10             I appreciate your time and you considering

 

      11        my request, and be happy to answer any questions

 

      12        at any point in time.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.

 

      14             Do we have any public comment cards on

 

      15        this?

 

      16             MS. ALLEN:  (Tenders speaker cards.)

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Our first speaker is

 

      18        Kay Ehas, followed by Greg Thomas.

 

      19             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.

 

      21             My name is Kay Ehas.  I reside at 2322

 

      22        Dellwood Avenue, Jacksonville, Florida 32204.

 

      23             I'm also the chair of the board of

 

      24        Riverside Avondale Preservation.

 

      25             You know, adding vinyl siding to a historic

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           32

 

 

       1        structure is one of the instigating factors for

 

       2        the neighborhood movement to become a historic

 

       3        district, and I would have to disagree that the

 

       4        majority of the wood on Mr. Bajalia's property

 

       5        is the original wood.

 

       6             I'd like to speak briefly on our main point

 

       7        in opposing the vinyl siding, and then the next

 

       8        four speakers will elaborate on those points.

 

       9             Vinyl is actually an inferior product that

 

      10        results in damage to the historic structure.

 

      11        The long-term cost of vinyl is actually greater

 

      12        than the long-term cost of wood siding.

 

      13             Allowing vinyl in this house means you'll

 

      14        have to approve vinyl for any structure within

 

      15        our historic -- city's historic district,

 

      16        effectively destroying the historic character,

 

      17        the economic value, and the cultural legacy

 

      18        these districts give to the city of

 

      19        Jacksonville.

 

      20             And if you grant the appeal, it will be the

 

      21        first time, to our knowledge, that vinyl siding

 

      22        will be allowed in any historic district in the

 

      23        United States where municipalities have adopted

 

      24        the Secretary of Interior's guidelines as we did

 

      25        in 1998.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           33

 

 

       1             In fact, the historic districts Mr. Bajalia

 

       2        cites in his materials as allowing vinyl siding

 

       3        do not allow vinyl siding.  That's a fact.  It's

 

       4        been -- staff has researched it, we've

 

       5        researched it.

 

       6             Various Florida courts, as well as the

 

       7        United States Supreme Court, have upheld the

 

       8        decisions of Historic Planning Commissions in

 

       9        similar cases to this.  At -- also the structure

 

      10        in question, if renovated appropriately,

 

      11        qualifies for a property tax exemption and for

 

      12        tax credits.

 

      13             Thank you for your time.

 

      14             And Greg Thomas is next.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Ehas.

 

      16             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      17             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.

 

      18             I'm Greg Thomas.  I reside at 2818 Lydia

 

      19        Street in Riverside.

 

      20             I am an architectural project manager with

 

      21        Richard Skinner & Associates, architects, and I

 

      22        serve as the chair of RAP's Design Review

 

      23        Committee.

 

      24             Prior to moving to Jacksonville in 2006, I

 

      25        worked in an architectural preservation firm in

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        New Orleans for over ten years, and I feel that

 

       2        I'm fairly qualified to speak on the issue

 

       3        before us.

 

       4             Before I make a few points, did everyone

 

       5        receive a packet from our organization?

 

       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (Nod heads.)

 

       7             MR. THOMAS:  Because the rest of us will be

 

       8        referring to that packet as we speak.

 

       9             I'd like to briefly point out the physical

 

      10        harm that the vinyl siding would do to this or

 

      11        any historic building.

 

      12             Generally speaking, there are two types of

 

      13        physical damage that will occur.  The first and

 

      14        the obvious one is the structural harm in the

 

      15        form of water damage, rot, termites, and mold.

 

      16        And the second type, which is just as important

 

      17        from a preservation standpoint, is the damage

 

      18        that will be done to the physical

 

      19        characteristics of the building that make it a

 

      20        contributing structure to the historic landscape

 

      21        of our city.

 

      22             To the structural damage, it's just poor

 

      23        building practice, poor building science to put

 

      24        vinyl siding and soffits over an existing

 

      25        building.  The construction technology that was

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        available in the early 20th century required

 

       2        that a wood structure be able to breathe, not

 

       3        only through its windows and doors, but through

 

       4        the walls, the eaves, and maintained a moisture

 

       5        content that was healthy.  It did not promote

 

       6        decay, provide breeding grounds for mold or

 

       7        offer food for wood-destroying insects.

 

       8             Vinyl siding by design, despite all the

 

       9        improvements that have been made over the years,

 

      10        lets rain and moisture underneath it and it

 

      11        keeps it there.

 

      12             Its application introduces thousand of nail

 

      13        holes into the existing wood siding and trim

 

      14        that it would be applied over, and yet it can't

 

      15        be caulked or waterproofed because it is so

 

      16        thin.  It leaves the job of moisture control to

 

      17        the surface underneath it that's now full of

 

      18        thousands of nail holes, which, you know, of

 

      19        course, doesn't really make a lot of sense.

 

      20             The wood structure can't breathe the way it

 

      21        was meant to, and its integrity as a weather

 

      22        barrier is compromised.  The problems start

 

      23        arising, sick building syndrome, et cetera.

 

      24             As to the aesthetic damage, it's not about

 

      25        whether we like the look of vinyl or not.  These

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        standards place value on the physical

 

       2        characteristics and aesthetic features which

 

       3        make the building a document of its place and

 

       4        time in history and worthy of preserving.  And

 

       5        by applying this vinyl, those features would be

 

       6        irreputably lost.

 

       7             And if you refer to page 6 of the handout,

 

       8        we have a good example of the three buildings in

 

       9        a row.  Mr. Bajalia is in the middle.  And you

 

      10        can see that, even though it's dilapidated,

 

      11        those features are still in intact.  We've got

 

      12        beaded board soffits, eave brackets, the fine

 

      13        wood lap siding, the routed corner boards, just

 

      14        to name a few.

 

      15             And the building on the right, which has

 

      16        been covered in vinyl, all of those features are

 

      17        lost and cannot be regained.

 

      18             And those are the things that would help

 

      19        qualify this building for tax credit and also

 

      20        make it a valuable record of what's in the city.

 

      21             Thank you.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      23             The next speaker is Jeffrey Graf, followed

 

      24        by Jennifer.

 

      25             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           37

 

 

       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Holt.

 

       2             Hold on just a second.

 

       3             Mr. Holt.

 

       4             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 

       5             I'd just like to ask a question.  I guess

 

       6        the last speaker would be as good a person as

 

       7        any judging from your background to ask this

 

       8        question.

 

       9             What exactly would you guys feel like would

 

      10        meet the requirements that you would recommend?

 

      11             And I'd also like to ask Mr. Bajalia what

 

      12        the cost difference would be between what you

 

      13        folks would expect to meet the requirements and

 

      14        what he's proposing, what the cost difference

 

      15        would be.

 

      16             Is that a question that you can answer?

 

      17             MR. THOMAS:  We recommend like material,

 

      18        meaning wood.

 

      19             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  And do you guys have an

 

      20        idea of what the cost difference would be

 

      21        between that and what he's proposing?

 

      22             MR. THOMAS:  We're going to get into that a

 

      23        little bit, but at this point, I don't think --

 

      24             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Well, if you're going to

 

      25        answer the question later, that's fine.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           38

 

 

       1             MR. THOMAS:  -- we have enough information

 

       2        to give you an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

       3             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Mr. Bajalia, could you

 

       4        come up and answer that question for me first so

 

       5        that later when they answer it, I'll have a

 

       6        background.

 

       7             (Mr. Bajalia approaches the podium.)

 

       8             MR. BAJALIA:  I had an estimate of the --

 

       9        of siding replacement and repair of the bad wood

 

      10        on the building and windows of $50,000 compared

 

      11        to siding and windows of $22,000.

 

      12             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Thank you.

 

      13             I'll just wait to hear their answer later.

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead, sir.

 

      15             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Okay.  Mr. Chairman,

 

      16        Jeffrey Graf, 1873 Greenwood Avenue,

 

      17        Jacksonville.

 

      18             I am the vice chair of Riverside Avondale

 

      19        Preservation.

 

      20             If you have your handout with you, I'd like

 

      21        to have you look at the bottom of page 13 where

 

      22        there is a quote -- excuse me while I put my arm

 

      23        extenders on here -- from a Daniel Buckles

 

      24        (phonetic), who says vinyl siding does not

 

      25        increase the value of one's home and in some

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           39

 

 

       1        cases can actually diminish its value if the

 

       2        home has historic value as located in a nicer

 

       3        neighborhood.

 

       4             In fact, this, as everybody knows, is

 

       5        located in a historic district.  And the issues

 

       6        and citings that we mentioned from JHPC earlier

 

       7        on in our package, if held up, which we're

 

       8        advocating, would, in fact, protect this

 

       9        building because it would not allow the vinyl

 

      10        siding.

 

      11             And Mr. Bajalia talks about his quotes.  If

 

      12        you look at the bottom of page 14, you can see

 

      13        his numbers are at least what we had.

 

      14             Moving on to page 15, some examples of his

 

      15        vinyl pricing quote versus a wood price, about

 

      16        the fifth bullet point down on the vinyl price,

 

      17        we noticed in looking at his estimates that

 

      18        nothing that was on the wood estimates was

 

      19        included in the vinyl price.

 

      20             Now, we know there's certainly wood items

 

      21        that wouldn't be, but there are items that

 

      22        should be on both sides of the ledger, if you

 

      23        will.

 

      24             If you look at the wood price side of his

 

      25        cost estimate, about five lines down, you see

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           40

 

 

       1        that the wood price includes stucco repairs and

 

       2        foundation work.  Two more lines down from that,

 

       3        it includes electrical work and interior

 

       4        repairs.  Two more lines down from that, it

 

       5        includes two rear windows.

 

       6             So as best we can tell from reading the

 

       7        information that was supplied to us, they're not

 

       8        apples-to-apples quotes.

 

       9             Direct your attention to the top of page 16

 

      10        where it's quoted a study from Tufts University,

 

      11        vinyl siding is now the most common siding

 

      12        material for low- to moderate-priced housing.

 

      13        If that's what it is, it is certainly not an

 

      14        upgrade for a building in the historic

 

      15        district.

 

      16             It goes on to talk about vinyl siding being

 

      17        maintenance-free.  It certainly is not.  After

 

      18        ten or so years, it's going to need painting.

 

      19        It will mold just like paint does.

 

      20             But it has another interesting side

 

      21        effect.  It if catches fire, the fumes are

 

      22        toxic, unlike wood.

 

      23             Moving on to page 18, a Consumer Reports

 

      24        study says over a cost-per-year basis, vinyl is

 

      25        not the cheapest either, among it, the higher,

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           41

 

 

       1        low-quality options.  Vinyl siding, according to

 

       2        what we've been able to tell, has a life span

 

       3        expectance of about half of what wood is.

 

       4             Mr. Bajalia bought this building in 1982

 

       5        when it was 67 years old.  He's owned it for 26

 

       6        or 27 years.  This building is 93 or 94 years

 

       7        old now.  And even given the lack of care that

 

       8        it's been given, this building is still

 

       9        standing.

 

      10             So, in closing, I don't think it's a quick

 

      11        fix.  It has a very negative short- and

 

      12        long-term effects, not only on the structure but

 

      13        the district and Jacksonville's city heritage.

 

      14             And, with that, I'd like to turn it over to

 

      15        Jennifer Mansfield.

 

      16             Thank you very much.

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      18             Jennifer, you're up next, followed by

 

      19        Carmen Godwin.

 

      20             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      21             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.

 

      22             I'm Jennifer Mansfield.  I live at 2043

 

      23        College Street.

 

      24             One of Mr. Bajalia's arguments that we've

 

      25        become aware of is that the housing district was

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           42

 

 

       1        established after he already owned the

 

       2        property.  That's, quite frankly, irrelevant.

 

       3        It was passed through a democratic process and

 

       4        is an ordinance of Jacksonville.  And,

 

       5        therefore, it applies to everyone.

 

       6             Courts, including the United States Supreme

 

       7        Court, have upheld historic district regulations

 

       8        and their application, even in the face of

 

       9        having to spend money in order to meet those

 

      10        standards.

 

      11             The ordinance must be applied evenly to

 

      12        everyone, and what applies to everyone else in

 

      13        the Riverside Avondale historic district must

 

      14        apply to Mr. Bajalia equally.

 

      15             The courts that have upheld similar design

 

      16        regulations, those regulations, just like

 

      17        Jacksonville, were based on the Department of

 

      18        Interior's design guidelines and despite the

 

      19        fact that -- some cost to the property owner in

 

      20        the district.

 

      21             Although the LUZ Committee's review is

 

      22        de novo, the LUZ is still required to apply

 

      23        those design regulations, just as the

 

      24        Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission

 

      25        did.  It does not matter what use the building

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           43

 

 

       1        has in the district.  All buildings within the

 

       2        district have to have -- must comply with the

 

       3        design regulations.

 

       4             In essence, what Mr. Bajalia is asking is

 

       5        to be treated differently than anyone else

 

       6        because the factors that he's pointed out --

 

       7        such as he thinks that it looks better and the

 

       8        cost, value of his property, value of vinyl

 

       9        properties -- really are not considerations

 

      10        under the design regulations.  He's essentially

 

      11        asking you to ignore the design regulations.

 

      12             Approving vinyl siding would eviscerate the

 

      13        historic district ordinance and design

 

      14        regulations because, again, what applies to

 

      15        Mr. Bajalia also applies to everyone else in the

 

      16        district.  This is precedent setting.

 

      17             So granting this appeal, LUZ would be

 

      18        making a finding under the design regulations

 

      19        that vinyl is an acceptable alternative to wood

 

      20        siding, and thus everyone else who wants to do

 

      21        it would be able to do it because of that

 

      22        finding.

 

      23             This would be precedent setting, even in

 

      24        its own right.  It's even more so though because

 

      25        LUZ has previously denied an appeal of a

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           44

 

 

       1        homeowner in a historic district for vinyl

 

       2        siding.

 

       3             It's also our understanding that during the

 

       4        Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission's

 

       5        staff investigation of this, that not only did

 

       6        none of the historic districts mentioned by

 

       7        Mr. Bajalia approve of vinyl siding, but some

 

       8        actually laughed when asked the question.

 

       9             And so that is a demonstration of how

 

      10        farfetched and beyond the design regulations

 

      11        that this request is.

 

      12             Thank you.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.

 

      14             Carmen.

 

      15             (Ms. Godwin approaches the podium.)

 

      16             MS. GODWIN:  Thank you.

 

      17             Carmen Godwin, 2623 Herschel Street.

 

      18             Thank you.

 

      19             I'm the executive director of Riverside

 

      20        Avondale Preservation, and you've heard a lot of

 

      21        evidence tonight about why historic districts

 

      22        throughout the country do not allow vinyl

 

      23        siding.

 

      24             We ask that you trust those who are

 

      25        appointed by the City to make educated decisions

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           45

 

 

       1        on historic landmarks and historic structures.

 

       2             The mayor appoints seven experts in various

 

       3        disciplines -- architecture, construction,

 

       4        preservation and law -- to serve on the

 

       5        Jacksonville Historic Commission.  These experts

 

       6        study the design regulations for the national

 

       7        historic districts of both Springfield and

 

       8        Riverside.  They understand these historic

 

       9        neighborhoods and the laws that govern

 

      10        alterations to property within those

 

      11        neighborhoods.

 

      12             While the group is not overly concerned

 

      13        with property values, their decisions help

 

      14        maintain and grow those values because they help

 

      15        retain the historic character of the

 

      16        neighborhoods and the specific building features

 

      17        of the unique structures within them.

 

      18             This seven-member panel of experts has

 

      19        never once approved the use of vinyl siding as a

 

      20        replacement material on a historic structure in

 

      21        either of our two historic districts, whether

 

      22        commercial, residential, office, whatever the

 

      23        use.

 

      24             And why do you think that is?  It's because

 

      25        they know and understand the Secretary of

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           46

 

 

       1        Interior Standards, they know and understand the

 

       2        law contained with the design regulations and

 

       3        all the details within those regulations, and

 

       4        they know the irreparable damage that vinyl

 

       5        siding causes, not only to the wood structure,

 

       6        but to every single detail and unique feature on

 

       7        those structures which are removed and destroyed

 

       8        when vinyl siding is put on them.

 

       9             I know that tonight you've heard talk of

 

      10        precedence, and we really feel -- and I've

 

      11        spoken with SPAR as well -- that this is one

 

      12        precedent that neither one of our historic

 

      13        districts would be able to live with.

 

      14             Jacksonville's historic neighborhoods are

 

      15        original suburbs to downtown, and we want to

 

      16        maintain them.  They help make our city livable

 

      17        and interesting among other Florida cities.

 

      18             So please help us to maintain that historic

 

      19        character and please uphold the decision of the

 

      20        Historic Commission.

 

      21             Thank you.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.

 

      23             The next one is Joann Purdie.

 

      24             Does not wish to speak.

 

      25             Bob Chamberlain, followed by William -- and

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           47

 

 

       1        I'm going the butcher your last name --

 

       2        Leuthold.

 

       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, name and address for

 

       5        the record, and you have three minutes to

 

       6        speak.

 

       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Bob

 

       8        Chamberlain.  I live at 4733 Devon Lane,

 

       9        Jacksonville, but I work at 1234 King Street at

 

      10        First Guaranty Bank.

 

      11             It's important in the Riverside Avondale

 

      12        area that we maintain the integrity of the

 

      13        housing and also of our commercial areas.  We

 

      14        have, today, several buildings being remodeled

 

      15        along King Street, along Park Street, and in

 

      16        other areas, and they are fulfilling that by

 

      17        staying to the standards that are set by the

 

      18        historic district.

 

      19             I recommend that you deny the request of

 

      20        the applicant.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      22             William, followed by Doug Coleman.

 

      23             As I call your name, make your way down

 

      24        front, please.

 

      25             (Mr. Leuthold approaches the podium.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           48

 

 

       1             MR. LEUTHOLD:  My name is William Leuthold.

 

       2             I have just finished serving six years in

 

       3        the Jacksonville Historic Preservation

 

       4        Commission.

 

       5             I'm an architect in Jacksonville, have my

 

       6        office at 2742 Herschel Street, right around the

 

       7        corner from the subject property here.

 

       8             In serving on the commission, you probably

 

       9        have my comments as part of the minutes of the

 

      10        meeting in which it was stated the same thing

 

      11        that's been stated by the experts here today

 

      12        already and that the use of vinyl siding is

 

      13        never allowed in historic districts, the reason

 

      14        being that -- mostly that it destroys the fabric

 

      15        and the character of that individual structure.

 

      16             When you use vinyl siding on a structure,

 

      17        you end up -- can I hand out a couple of

 

      18        pass-outs?

 

      19             I just took one photograph that has a

 

      20        vinyl-sided structure on the top and a restored

 

      21        structure on the bottom.

 

      22             One of the instances -- one of the great

 

      23        things about historic architecture, the old

 

      24        structures that were build in town, is that they

 

      25        were -- they use simple detailing of quality

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           49

 

 

       1        materials.  Vinyl is the opposite of that.

 

       2        Vinyl is a cheap material that is really more

 

       3        appropriate on a low-income house or even a

 

       4        mobile home.  Most of the mobile homes you saw

 

       5        for years had vinyl siding attached to them, had

 

       6        vinyl soffits.  What they were covering up was

 

       7        junky construction.

 

       8             But what happens here, if you allowed vinyl

 

       9        siding, would be you would start to cover up

 

      10        quality materials that were installed by

 

      11        craftsmen.  In doing that, you're taking away

 

      12        the character of that house.

 

      13             There are certain features of a house that

 

      14        need to be looked at.  In looking at this, the

 

      15        bottom one, you can see it's simple horizontal

 

      16        siding.  It meets a solid wood casing around the

 

      17        window.  There's a little bit of detail on the

 

      18        top of the window that's a little head trim

 

      19        there.  When you go with the vinyl, you start

 

      20        taking that off or you cover it up and destroy

 

      21        it by taking it off.

 

      22             The materials are not installed in a

 

      23        historic way.  When they put the trim on it,

 

      24        it's trim that's designed to mechanically fasten

 

      25        these items.  These lesser expensive, these

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        lower quality pieces.  That's very different

 

       2        from the way they put together the old houses,

 

       3        and part of that craftsmanship is very important

 

       4        in these structures.

 

       5             You also lose the frieze board, you lose

 

       6        trim under the soffits if you put the vinyl in

 

       7        the -- put the soffit in the cornice, and you're

 

       8        changing the direction of the material.  You're

 

       9        putting in a vented or a very cheap-looking

 

      10        product and, again, covering up quality

 

      11        materials that were installed by craftsmen at

 

      12        the time.

 

      13             I'll just pass this one more out.  This is

 

      14        one sheet.  I should have brought more, but I'll

 

      15        describe it first.  This is his building

 

      16        (indicating), and this is a building that was

 

      17        restored in the neighborhood (indicating).

 

      18             And just to show you the difference that

 

      19        you can get, in the restoration of this, the

 

      20        exterior -- there wasn't more than $30,000 that

 

      21        was spent on that, but -- and it could easily be

 

      22        done.

 

      23             He quoted a price, and in that price it --

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, your three minutes are

 

      25        up.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             MR. LEUTHOLD:  Just remember in his price

 

       2        that that was to put cheap materials on there,

 

       3        not quality materials, and it hurts the historic

 

       4        structure.

 

       5             Thank you very much.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

       7             Doug Coleman.

 

       8             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'll waive.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      10             Larry Craven.

 

      11             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Waive.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      13             Your wife.

 

      14             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I waive.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

      16             Michael O'Connell.

 

      17             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I waive.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      19             Sally Robson.

 

      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She's left.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let the record show that she

 

      22        was opposed to this as well.

 

      23             Bud Paka.

 

      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Opposed.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           52

 

 

       1             Let the record show he was opposed.

 

       2             Kevin Kuzel.

 

       3             Kevin is followed by Wayne Wood.

 

       4             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  I do appreciate all you guys

 

       6        waiving and not being duplicative.  That makes

 

       7        this process a lot easier.

 

       8             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

       9             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Kevin Kuzel.  I live at

 

      10        1130 Acosta Street in Riverside, and that's only

 

      11        two blocks away from 1609 King.

 

      12             I've been in Riverside for eight-and-a-half

 

      13        years, and I made some notes over here just to

 

      14        kind of sort out what had been said and things I

 

      15        don't need to cover.

 

      16             And one of the things I definitely want to

 

      17        say is my house has had wood siding on it for

 

      18        93 years, and I don't think there's any vinyl

 

      19        siding that's going to last anywhere near that

 

      20        long.

 

      21             Furthermore, I've got a study here, and

 

      22        this is from the Marshall -- or the Haag

 

      23        Engineering Company out of Dallas, Texas.  This

 

      24        is one -- if you go to the Internet, this is one

 

      25        of many, many studies that has been done by FEMA

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           53

 

 

       1        and other engineering firms as well as other

 

       2        government organizations that have shown what

 

       3        hurricane damage and tropical storm damage can

 

       4        do to structures that are clad in vinyl siding,

 

       5        and every study shows the vinyl siding is

 

       6        substandard compared to wood.

 

       7             And we're in a period right now where we've

 

       8        got more hurricanes, more tropical storms than

 

       9        normal, so this is not -- this is not a good

 

      10        answer for storms.

 

      11             Finally, you know, we all in the historic

 

      12        district have to maintain the architectural

 

      13        integrity and heritage of the area, all the

 

      14        property owners.  These rules and laws apply to

 

      15        everybody, and I don't think that they should be

 

      16        changed for anybody.

 

      17             Thank you.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      19             Wayne Wood, followed by Louise De Spain.

 

      20             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      21             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Wayne Wood.  I

 

      22        live at 2821 Riverside Avenue, about

 

      23        four-and-a-half blocks from this site.

 

      24             And just by way of qualification, I'm the

 

      25        author of several books on Jacksonville

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           54

 

 

       1        architecture, including Jacksonville

 

       2        Architectural Heritage, which may give some

 

       3        credence to what I have to say.

 

       4             You've heard some very good details that I

 

       5        think speak very straightforward to why this

 

       6        should be defeated.  I'd like to take a little

 

       7        bit bigger picture.

 

       8             Riverside Avondale is one of the largest

 

       9        historic districts in the south, perhaps even in

 

      10        the United States.  It is designated a historic

 

      11        district by the Secretary of State as a resource

 

      12        and a heritage site for the United States of

 

      13        America.

 

      14             As a separate level, the City of

 

      15        Jacksonville has voted and set up legislation

 

      16        that recognizes Riverside and Avondale as a

 

      17        historic district, and the Historic Preservation

 

      18        Commission is our expert that tells us how to

 

      19        safeguard that entity.

 

      20             Now, none of you are architectural

 

      21        historians and so you have to rely on the beauty

 

      22        of consolidation wisdom in appointing

 

      23        commissions to have expertise in this, and the

 

      24        preservation commission has said firmly that

 

      25        allowing vinyl siding on a building is against

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           55

 

 

       1        the whole principle of the historic district.

 

       2             Historic districts give value to the city

 

       3        to save our unique resources.  And, you know,

 

       4        you can say, well, what is it if just one

 

       5        building gets messed up and is taken out of the

 

       6        historic district's character?  Well, that's the

 

       7        way we lose historic districts.

 

       8             I've been working in historic preservation

 

       9        in Jacksonville for 35 years, and I've seen one

 

      10        house go down, be demolished, and the next house

 

      11        go down, and then the whole neighborhood goes

 

      12        down.

 

      13             The whole purpose of the historic district

 

      14        legislation is to protect this very fragile

 

      15        resource.  And it is fragile.  And if you allow

 

      16        one building to supersede the guidelines that

 

      17        have been set up, have been voted on, they've

 

      18        been set up by the City and the United States

 

      19        government, which in the historic preservation

 

      20        guidelines is the Secretary of Interior, vinyl

 

      21        siding is not allowed for a very good purpose.

 

      22             Then you will have allowed a toehold into

 

      23        the deterioration of the whole historic

 

      24        district.

 

      25             It is your job -- I hope you feel it is to

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           56

 

 

       1        help protect these valuable resources, and to

 

       2        the good of the community sometimes has to

 

       3        supersede the wishes for shortcuts by

 

       4        individuals that would deteriorate the entire

 

       5        neighborhood.

 

       6             We're living in a world that is so

 

       7        artificial and is plasticized, and here we have

 

       8        a building in a historic district that's the

 

       9        real deal, it's made of wood.  There are

 

      10        buildings in Duval County that are over

 

      11        200 years old made of wood.  That building will

 

      12        be there a long, long time if it's maintained.

 

      13        And your vote against this will ensure that

 

      14        there is no chip in the armor of us trying so

 

      15        very hard to preserve what is valuable to this

 

      16        city, and it has been legislated and appointed

 

      17        as such, and it is our job to try to keep it so

 

      18        that generations from now our historic district

 

      19        will still be intact.

 

      20             Thank you.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      22             Ms. De Spain.

 

      23             (Ms. De Spain approaches the podium.)

 

      24             MS. DE SPAIN:  Louise De Spain.

 

      25             Thank you.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             I'm here representing SPAR and the

 

       2        Springfield historic district.  I just want to

 

       3        go on record that we also oppose the use of

 

       4        vinyl siding in our district as well.  That is

 

       5        officially representing SPAR.

 

       6             From the standpoint of a private citizen

 

       7        who had to take aluminum siding, vinyl siding

 

       8        off of a house that somebody had put on illegal,

 

       9        a house that I now own, the house is beautiful.

 

      10        It covered up all the beautiful historic

 

      11        character of my house because the siding was

 

      12        used.

 

      13             And so I would ask you to please oppose

 

      14        this because it doesn't do anything for the

 

      15        historic value of the house, and I had to pay to

 

      16        have it taken off.

 

      17             Thank you.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.

 

      19             That's all the speaker cards I have.  If

 

      20        there's nobody else that wants to speak --

 

      21             Mr. Bajalia, I will give you five minutes

 

      22        to rebut, and then we'll close the public

 

      23        hearing.

 

      24             (Mr. Bajalia approaches the podium.)

 

      25             MR. BAJALIA:  Five minutes.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             Well, I'd like to thank you again and

 

       2        appreciate the passion of all the folks from the

 

       3        Riverside Avondale Preservation area.

 

       4             I'd like to say that I represent the silent

 

       5        majority.

 

       6             A couple of things that I want to point

 

       7        out:  First of all, vinyl siding is the number

 

       8        one siding used on homes in the United States,

 

       9        and I suspect that probably 75 to 80 percent of

 

      10        the people in this room, including all of you,

 

      11        have some aspect of vinyl in your home, whether

 

      12        it's soffit, fascia, or the actual siding.

 

      13             And so I -- while I do respect the past, I

 

      14        don't live in the past, and I don't believe that

 

      15        vinyl siding is low to moderate -- for low- to

 

      16        moderate-priced homes.  I don't have a low- to

 

      17        moderate-priced home and I have vinyl soffits

 

      18        and vinyl fascia board on stucco in my home.

 

      19             Number two, one of the speakers referred

 

      20        to -- that the siding was the original

 

      21        structure.  I'll point out, this -- this front

 

      22        area here (indicating) was an addition to the

 

      23        home and there's an equal addition in the back

 

      24        of the building as well as another -- another

 

      25        modification on this northwest side of the house

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        which is not the original structure, could not

 

       2        possibly be the original structure because there

 

       3        were major additions to the home.

 

       4             And so I'd like to point that out.

 

       5             I'm going to jump through some of these

 

       6        things.

 

       7             I don't think the hurricane argument was

 

       8        relevant because we're going to apply it to the

 

       9        existing structure.  We're not going to replace

 

      10        the existing structure.  And this is not a

 

      11        mobile home, which I think is what the

 

      12        implication was.

 

      13             First time -- I do understand it's the

 

      14        first time it's done.  And I, once again,

 

      15        respect the fact that the -- all these people

 

      16        stood up and agreed to -- or stating the case to

 

      17        keep it as it is and therefore spend my money.

 

      18             I don't -- I haven't found a price to their

 

      19        price.  I'm very interested in a grant to do

 

      20        what they've asked me to do.  But it just

 

      21        doesn't make economic sense, and I'm a business

 

      22        person, an investment person, and so it just

 

      23        doesn't make economic sense what they're

 

      24        saying.  And, therefore, if a grant is available

 

      25        to me, I'll take it and be happy to consider

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           60

 

 

       1        what they're asking for.

 

       2             As far as other locations not allowing

 

       3        vinyl siding, I disagree with that, completely

 

       4        disagree with that, and will provide you a

 

       5        handout of the cities that have allowed siding

 

       6        in homes in historic areas.

 

       7             With respect to the value position that it

 

       8        impacts or negatively impacts the value of the

 

       9        house, I'll provide you another handout that

 

      10        shows the houses with vinyl siding on it that --

 

      11        and the comparable homes nearby that are either

 

      12        equally -- some are a little -- some of them are

 

      13        higher priced, some are lower priced, but for

 

      14        the most part there's -- the majority of them,

 

      15        the value of the vinyl or aluminum is higher.

 

      16             And when I speak of value, I speak of value

 

      17        as provided by the City of Jacksonville property

 

      18        appraiser's office, the market value.

 

      19             Okay.  Other cities that are not on that

 

      20        list are Pinehurst, North Carolina, which I

 

      21        believe you did get something from the

 

      22        Vinyl Siding Institute on; and Buckhead, in

 

      23        Atlanta, Georgia.

 

      24             With respect to the precedent, in all due

 

      25        respect, you know, times do change.  I mean,

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        tomorrow we're going to have an election and

 

       2        we're going to have a precedent-setting election

 

       3        on -- whether it be a vice president or a

 

       4        presidential candidate.

 

       5             So it's just -- it's just -- if something

 

       6        makes sense and it's happening all throughout

 

       7        the country, just because one building that's in

 

       8        a commercial area that's not in a residential

 

       9        historic area as appointed in the zoning overlay

 

      10        map, to me, it doesn't make sense that this is

 

      11        not being considered since it is in a commercial

 

      12        area, and that I could be, you know, hamstrung

 

      13        to spend any money on the property.  And,

 

      14        therefore, it's going to look more like this

 

      15        (indicating) in the next three to five years.

 

      16             Once again, very interested in a grant if

 

      17        that's available to me.

 

      18             I disagree completely with the -- for the

 

      19        point that it's toxic.  Once again, number one

 

      20        siding product in the United States.  And,

 

      21        therefore, if it is toxic, every one of us ought

 

      22        to be considered with that.

 

      23             One last point.  The guidelines -- if

 

      24        that's okay, Mr. Chairman.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           62

 

 

       1             MR. BAJALIA:  I was not disagreeing that I

 

       2        should have a precedent because I've owned the

 

       3        building since the guidelines.  What I'm saying

 

       4        is the buildings here (indicating) are each

 

       5        ten years -- at least ten years old with a

 

       6        product that's -- a siding product that's on

 

       7        there, except for my rendering here, and they

 

       8        all look much better than my building.

 

       9             Once again, thank you for your time and

 

      10        everybody's time tonight.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      12             We will close the public hearing.

 

      13             And, Mr. Bajalia, I'll tell you, we allow

 

      14        vinyl siding at the beach if you want to move

 

      15        your house out there.

 

      16             MR. BAJALIA:  I know you do.

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let's go with -- let's go

 

      18        with staff.

 

      19             MR. TEAL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      20             Through the Chair to the committee, this is

 

      21        an application that was actually three items.

 

      22        Mr. Bajalia got two out of the three that he

 

      23        wanted as it relates to this structure.  The

 

      24        third item was the vinyl siding, which you've

 

      25        heard about today.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           63

 

 

       1             And, obviously, you've heard from

 

       2        representatives of both historic districts and

 

       3        the impact that the granting of this application

 

       4        would have on the contributing structures in

 

       5        those historic districts.

 

       6             Also, you've heard that the primary reason

 

       7        for the formation -- and I'm sure Councilmember

 

       8        Corrigan can testify to that since he was one of

 

       9        the driving forces behind the creation of the

 

      10        Riverside Avondale historic district -- was the

 

      11        application of vinyl siding to structures such

 

      12        as these.

 

      13             Mr. Bajalia pointed out several examples of

 

      14        where vinyl siding had been applied to

 

      15        structures, and he admits that those all

 

      16        occurred prior to the 1998 formation of the

 

      17        Riverside Avondale historic district.  There has

 

      18        never been an application approved in either

 

      19        historic district since their creation that

 

      20        would approve what he is proposing.

 

      21             In fact, of the 32 applications that were

 

      22        processed for certificates of appropriateness,

 

      23        eleven of those were to actually remove the

 

      24        vinyl siding, six of them were to repair the

 

      25        vinyl siding, and the remainder were to try and

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           64

 

 

       1        get vinyl siding, which were all universally

 

       2        denied by the commission.

 

       3             Not only that, the City Council has had one

 

       4        appeal of a vinyl siding in 2000, and that

 

       5        appeal was upheld.  The commission's decision to

 

       6        deny the vinyl siding was upheld by the City

 

       7        Council.

 

       8             So the precedent before the City of

 

       9        Jacksonville has been to deny vinyl siding for

 

      10        use in the historic districts.

 

      11             Mr. Bajalia made a lot of comments about

 

      12        how the folks were seemingly wanting to spend

 

      13        his money and that he was seeking a grant.  It's

 

      14        funny that he would mention that because, in

 

      15        essence, what the reason, in large part, for why

 

      16        we're here is because he hasn't spent any

 

      17        money.  He's owned the building for 27 years,

 

      18        and the reason it's in the condition that it's

 

      19        in is because of deferred maintenance of

 

      20        patchwork repairs and of Band-Aid applications

 

      21        since he's owned it.

 

      22             So, in large part, the 25 -- the 27 years

 

      23        that he's owned this building, the reason why

 

      24        it's in such bad shape is because of the fact

 

      25        that he himself hasn't put any money into it in

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           65

 

 

       1        order to upkeep the building.

 

       2             He brought up the fact that all of these

 

       3        governments, local governments have -- have

 

       4        approved this vinyl siding for use in their

 

       5        historic districts.  Well, it's interesting that

 

       6        he would bring that up because staff called

 

       7        every single one of those local governments, if

 

       8        they exist.  Three or four of them don't even

 

       9        exist.  But every single one of them,

 

      10        universally, 100 percent, do not allow vinyl

 

      11        siding in the historic districts in the manner

 

      12        in which he's proposing it.

 

      13             So to make the argument that local

 

      14        governments across the country are using vinyl

 

      15        siding, flying in the face of Secretary of

 

      16        Interior reports that they've done of all of the

 

      17        reports, as testified by one of the speakers

 

      18        today as a historic preservationist/architect in

 

      19        New Orleans, flies in the face of reality in

 

      20        that none of these would have approved the vinyl

 

      21        siding as he's alleging.

 

      22             He said the rules changed in 1998.  The

 

      23        rules didn't change; they just became rules.

 

      24        That's when the historic district was formed.

 

      25        Every property owner was allowed to vote on the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           66

 

 

       1        creation of the historic district.  It was a

 

       2        democratic process.  The ownership of all the

 

       3        properties overwhelmingly supported the

 

       4        formation of the historic district.

 

       5             Not only that, but the University of

 

       6        Florida actually conducted an economic analysis

 

       7        study in 2006 as to what's the economic reality

 

       8        of creation of a historic district and

 

       9        maintaining of a historic district across the

 

      10        state of Florida.

 

      11             Universally they have found that where

 

      12        historic districts were created and property

 

      13        regulations were in place to maintain the

 

      14        historic characteristics of those neighborhoods,

 

      15        every single one of those -- every single one of

 

      16        those entities, the historic districts have

 

      17        shown an increase in property value.

 

      18             So property values have increased because

 

      19        of the fact that historic districts are in place

 

      20        and because property owners can know what they

 

      21        can expect from their neighbors in that they

 

      22        know what's going to be allowed and what's not

 

      23        going to be allowed.

 

      24             Any vinyl siding, again, that's existing in

 

      25        historic districts was either done illegally or

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           67

 

 

       1        was done prior to the formation of those

 

       2        historic districts.  There's never been an

 

       3        application approved to do that.

 

       4             HPC has never approved -- the Historic

 

       5        Preservation Commission has never approved the

 

       6        use of vinyl siding to replace wood siding.

 

       7             And he made the argument that including

 

       8        vinyl siding makes it cheaper to maintain and

 

       9        makes it more durable.  You've heard a lot of

 

      10        testimony tonight about how that's just simply

 

      11        not true, and I think the clearest example of

 

      12        that is the gentleman who spoke that said he's

 

      13        got the same wood siding on his house for

 

      14        96 years.

 

      15             So to say that vinyl siding is easier to

 

      16        maintain, it's more durable, it's longer lasting

 

      17        is not proven by, you know, the reality that

 

      18        exists in historic districts.

 

      19             Finally, he points out that because he is a

 

      20        commercial structure that -- or he wants to

 

      21        become a commercial structure that he ought to

 

      22        be allowed to do this.  I would point out that

 

      23        if he does do this with a commercial use, he is

 

      24        going to be giving up federal tax credits and

 

      25        property tax exemptions.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           68

 

 

       1             Commercial properties that maintain their

 

       2        historic features are -- you know, have federal

 

       3        tax credits available to them if they were to

 

       4        apply for them.  If you destroy that historic

 

       5        fabric, if you pave over that historic fabric,

 

       6        those tax credits are very unlikely to be

 

       7        granted.

 

       8             And, finally, I think the last point is

 

       9        with regard to his estimates for the cost to

 

      10        repair the vinyl siding and the wood siding.  He

 

      11        quoted $50,000 to do the wood and $22,000 to do

 

      12        the vinyl, but I think it is important to look

 

      13        at the evidence that's actually out there in

 

      14        his -- in his estimates.

 

      15             He's including in his $50,000 figure wiring

 

      16        inside and out, removing air-conditioning --

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Teal, you're being

 

      18        duplicative.

 

      19             MR. TEAL:  Okay.

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  We've heard that.

 

      21             MR. TEAL:  With that, Mr. Chairman, I will

 

      22        wrap up and request that the decision and the

 

      23        past decisions by the Historic Preservation

 

      24        Commission and this council be followed and that

 

      25        the application and the appeal be denied.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           69

 

 

       1             Thank you.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

       3             Mr. Corrigan.

 

       4             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

       5             I didn't know if I'd ever get a chance to

 

       6        talk.  I appreciate it.

 

       7             A couple of things.  To the committee, one,

 

       8        I appreciate your patience during this appeal.

 

       9        Nobody likes appeals.  They're very

 

      10        frustrating.  I don't like them.  We try to get

 

      11        our different committees and councils to try to

 

      12        help us out to get -- save some of this work, so

 

      13        I apologize in advance about taking so much time

 

      14        to allow -- to do this tonight.

 

      15             There's really three basic points that you

 

      16        need to be considering.  One is vinyl siding has

 

      17        never been allowed in any historic district in

 

      18        Jacksonville.  You've heard from neighbors --

 

      19        residents, the neighborhood association and the

 

      20        businesses all which confirm that.

 

      21             Number two is we're talking about the law

 

      22        here.  These are not ideas that we think ought

 

      23        to be done or something else.  This is an

 

      24        ordinance that was passed by this council back

 

      25        in 1997, '98, and became law.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           70

 

 

       1             It's -- to be -- using a couple of

 

       2        analogies for you.  If you live in a

 

       3        neighborhood that has covenants and restrictions

 

       4        and one of them is that you can't have a

 

       5        motorhome parked in your yard and you buy a

 

       6        motorhome and want to park it there, you don't

 

       7        have that choice.  You can't park it there.

 

       8        It's against the law.  You have to -- you'd have

 

       9        to park it where you can.

 

      10             But this is a little more stricter since

 

      11        this is actually a law.  This isn't a covenant

 

      12        and restriction.  It's more like a one-way

 

      13        street you go down and it's much easier and

 

      14        faster and less gas for you to turn the opposite

 

      15        way on a one-way street because you can

 

      16        accomplish that faster, but you can't do it

 

      17        because it's against the law.

 

      18             In this case, he's asking to do something

 

      19        that's against the law and shouldn't be allowed

 

      20        to be done.

 

      21             And it's interesting, much of the

 

      22        conversation you've heard during this discussion

 

      23        tonight, terms used by the applicant, who has

 

      24        done a great job trying -- we're trying to find

 

      25        compromise between him and I and the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           71

 

 

       1        neighborhood, and there just isn't one here.

 

       2             He spoke a great deal about cost

 

       3        effective.  He talked about low maintenance

 

       4        cost.  He talked about the fact he'll have to

 

       5        continue to repair and replace the siding.  He

 

       6        said that cost is much less.  It's half the

 

       7        cost.  He said he's willing to look into the

 

       8        grant process.  He said it's the number one

 

       9        siding used in the United States.

 

      10             He never said that this is an economic

 

      11        hardship, that he has an economic hardship.  And

 

      12        one of the things you need to consider when you

 

      13        consider allowing something like this to happen

 

      14        is, is it an economic hardship on the applicant

 

      15        to be able to do this?  And I don't believe

 

      16        that's the case here.  And even if it was, you

 

      17        really would be setting a precedent.

 

      18             You think this appeal is long and tenuous

 

      19        and it's taking a lot of your time tonight, if

 

      20        you allow this one, you're going to have dozens

 

      21        of them coming behind him to do it because

 

      22        they're going to say it's a cheaper way to do

 

      23        it.  So it's just not the wrong way to go, it's

 

      24        not what the people in this area bought in this

 

      25        area and continue to buy in this area for.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           72

 

 

       1        They're there because they want to avoid vinyl

 

       2        siding on the sides of their houses.

 

       3             I know there's a whole bunch of cities that

 

       4        allow vinyl siding on a house.  Jacksonville,

 

       5        Florida, happens to be on a list of those cities

 

       6        that allows vinyl siding, and I think it should.

 

       7             But my house, I painted it three years

 

       8        ago.  It's all wood.  I don't have any vinyl.

 

       9        Unlike the applicant, I don't have any vinyl on

 

      10        my house.  It's now been three years and I'm

 

      11        getting ready to paint it all over again.

 

      12        Should I strip every piece of paint off and

 

      13        start over?  I could get vinyl siding and apply

 

      14        to do it if I really wanted to go through that

 

      15        process that Mr. Bajalia has had to do.

 

      16             But you know what?  When I bought my house

 

      17        five years ago, I knew I was going to have to do

 

      18        it every three to five years.  And it's kind of

 

      19        a pride of ownership that I do that.  And

 

      20        there's thousands of people that are doing that

 

      21        in the historic districts in Jacksonville and

 

      22        they understand it.

 

      23             So while I sympathize with Mr. Bajalia and

 

      24        while I do want him to continue to fix up this

 

      25        property, I will tell you that I cannot and I

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           73

 

 

       1        urge you not to support his appeal because it

 

       2        will cast a dangerous precedent, and you will --

 

       3        as I said earlier, you will see many more of

 

       4        these in the historic district that I fought so

 

       5        hard to create back in 1997 will become eroded

 

       6        at a much faster pace than we have restored it.

 

       7             So thank you.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Corrigan.

 

       9             I don't have anybody else in the queue.

 

      10             MR. WEBB:  Move to deny.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved to deny.

 

      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded

 

      14        to deny the appeal.

 

      15             Any discussion on the amendment?

 

      16             Mr. Joost.

 

      17             MR. JOOST:  Mr. Bajalia, I'd like to ask

 

      18        you a question.

 

      19             MR. BAJALIA:  Yes, sir.

 

      20             MR. JOOST:  First of all, thanks for coming

 

      21        down.

 

      22             And I found your arguments somewhat

 

      23        persuasive, but after I had left your location

 

      24        when we had our meeting there, I actually did

 

      25        some research on vinyl, and what I'd found

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           74

 

 

       1        out -- I'm trying to find the exact thing it

 

       2        says.

 

       3             What concerned me is during my research on

 

       4        the Internet, it said, unlike wood and masonry,

 

       5        vinyl siding presents its own breed of

 

       6        maintenance worries:  Moisture trapped beneath

 

       7        the vinyl will accelerate rot, promote mold,

 

       8        mildew, and invite insect infestation.

 

       9             Left uncorrected, dampness in the walls

 

      10        will cause wallpaper, paint -- blah, blah,

 

      11        blah -- to blister and peel.  To avoid hidden

 

      12        decay, you will want to frequently recaulk

 

      13        joints between the vinyl siding and adjacent

 

      14        trim.

 

      15             And then it talks about leaks, faulty

 

      16        gutters, and other sources of moisture which

 

      17        would cause extra repairs in the vinyl if not --

 

      18        your attention was not brought to it

 

      19        immediately.

 

      20             Would you like to rebut?  Is there any way

 

      21        you can rebut that?

 

      22             MR. BAJALIA:  Well, the -- there's a --

 

      23        there's a program certification process for

 

      24        installers to properly -- certified installers,

 

      25        of which I intend to use, to install the product

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           75

 

 

       1        in the proper manner.  And I think that that in

 

       2        itself would prevent some of the issues that you

 

       3        pointed out.  Plus, it's also recommended that

 

       4        the vinyl siding is cleaned and pressure-washed

 

       5        once a year.

 

       6             And I think that that would -- I have some

 

       7        other -- another property with vinyl siding, and

 

       8        I do that once a year to prevent any mildew

 

       9        or -- on the building on the siding, and that's

 

      10        why it's preventive.

 

      11             I haven't experienced it.  I've prevented

 

      12        it from happening, and so that would be -- that

 

      13        would be my response to that, sir.

 

      14             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And then there was one

 

      15        other thing that I was reading where it said, if

 

      16        you had to put vinyl siding on, that you would

 

      17        have to replace a lot of the historic features

 

      18        on most older buildings.

 

      19             Can you rebut that?

 

      20             MR. BAJALIA:  Yeah.  The -- one of the

 

      21        handouts that I provided you was architectural

 

      22        millwork and trim accessories for -- that are

 

      23        used in historic districts, and I guess the

 

      24        cities -- the cities that were provided to me by

 

      25        the trade association and the manufacturers of

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           76

 

 

       1        the product.

 

       2             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And then one last thing

 

       3        that concerned me also regarding durability.  It

 

       4        says vinyl is less durable than wood and

 

       5        masonry.  Vinyl -- wind can get underneath the

 

       6        thin sheets of vinyl siding and lift the panel

 

       7        from the wall.  Wind-blown debris and strong

 

       8        hail can puncture vinyl.

 

       9             Can you rebut that?

 

      10             MR. BAJALIA:  Well, this product will be

 

      11        applied to the current structure.  It's not

 

      12        going to be replacing the current structure, so

 

      13        I'm not going to tear down -- I don't intend to

 

      14        tear down the wood siding.  But as far as

 

      15        puncture, it's a vinyl product.  So if somebody

 

      16        wants to puncture it, I suspect they can, as

 

      17        they probably could wood.

 

      18             MR. JOOST:  All right.  Thank you.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Anybody else on the

 

      20        amendment?

 

      21             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, all in favor

 

      23        say aye.

 

      24             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           77

 

 

       1             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've

 

       3        amended this to deny the appeal.

 

       4             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended to deny

 

       5        the appeal.

 

       6             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

       8        seconded as amended.

 

       9             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      12        ballot.

 

      13             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      14             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      15             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      16             MR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      21        the vote.

 

      22             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      23             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nays.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      25        denied the appeal 2007-1350.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           78

 

 

       1             MR. CORRIGAN:  Mr. Chairman, thank you very

 

       2        much.  I appreciate the committee's patience.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is that it, Mr. Corrigan?

 

       4             MR. CORRIGAN:  That is it, sir.  Thank you.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir, for

 

       6        visiting.

 

       7             Mr. Bishop, welcome.

 

       8             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  You had something that you

 

      10        wanted to bring up.

 

      11             MR. BISHOP:  Yes, sir.  It's item 39,

 

      12        2008-857.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Council members, page 12,

 

      14        2009-857 [sic].

 

      15             Would you like to start or should I just

 

      16        open and close the public hearing for you?

 

      17             MR. BISHOP:  Go ahead.  You can go ahead

 

      18        and take it in normal course.  That would be

 

      19        fine, Mr. Graham.

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We will open the

 

      21        public hearing of 2008-857.

 

      22             Mr. Hainline.

 

      23             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)

 

      24             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Chairman, my name is

 

      25        T.R. Hainline, 1301 Riverplace Boulevard.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           79

 

 

       1             I'm here representing Gate Petroleum.

 

       2             This is a transmittal of a land use

 

       3        amendment in the area where McCormick Road and

 

       4        the Wonderwood Expressway -- McCormick Road,

 

       5        slash, the Wonderwood Expressway intersects with

 

       6        Fort Caroline Road in Arlington.

 

       7             This amendment involves a proposed

 

       8        redevelopment at that intersection, specifically

 

       9        the demolition of an existing older gas station,

 

      10        convenience store and strip center at one site,

 

      11        then placing that site in the conservation land

 

      12        use category and donating it to the City as park

 

      13        and greenspace, and then the construction of a

 

      14        new gas station and convenience store with

 

      15        substantial design controls and buffers at a

 

      16        retention pond site that is owned by the JTA

 

      17        across the street.

 

      18             The idea of this redevelopment at this site

 

      19        arose several years ago as a result of the JTA's

 

      20        planned improvements on the Wonderwood

 

      21        Expressway.

 

      22             This proposal has been the subject of

 

      23        numerous community meetings.  Gate received

 

      24        positive feedback in the initial meetings, and

 

      25        so it proceeded with the next steps, which is

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           80

 

 

       1        this land use amendment of the JTA pond site,

 

       2        some preliminary designs, and then continued

 

       3        meetings with the area residents regarding the

 

       4        design and various conditions.

 

       5             We've moved from concept to specific

 

       6        design.  And as we've done so, questions and

 

       7        concerns have arisen specifically and

 

       8        particularly about the JTA's clearing of the

 

       9        site.  The site was once wooded and it has been

 

      10        cleared for the JTA's pond construction there at

 

      11        the site.

 

      12             Gate has been addressed -- asked to address

 

      13        not only issues of design controls and buffers

 

      14        for its convenience store -- the proposed

 

      15        convenience store, but also buffering and

 

      16        security and maintenance for the JTA pond.

 

      17             We're making every attempt to address these

 

      18        issues.  And even though we're only at

 

      19        transmittal, we're essentially -- we have

 

      20        PUD-ready plans and conditions here that we're

 

      21        ready to propose that deal with both the JTA

 

      22        pond and with the convenience store.  We've

 

      23        proposed those conditions there in the booklet

 

      24        that I have passed out.

 

      25             This is a step in a long process, and we

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           81

 

 

       1        ask only that you approve this transmittal so we

 

       2        can continue that process, continue our

 

       3        discussions with the neighbors, with Councilman

 

       4        Bishop, with the Planning department; and then,

 

       5        of course, adoption of a plan -- a consideration

 

       6        of adoption of a plan amendment and a PUD would

 

       7        come up in February.

 

       8             But these discussions and this possible

 

       9        redevelopment and the positives of it, which

 

      10        involve land -- parkland on both sides of the

 

      11        road -- possible parkland on both sides of the

 

      12        road, the positives of this cannot continue and

 

      13        these discussions cannot continue without

 

      14        approving this transmittal tonight.

 

      15             We have -- I'm pretty much through with

 

      16        what I'm going to say, but we have some others

 

      17        coming up.  Jim Robinson is going to talk some

 

      18        about traffic conflicts at the existing site,

 

      19        Drew Frick will give you some history of this

 

      20        particular issue, and then Ken Wilson will go

 

      21        through the specific conditions.  And we're all

 

      22        here to answer any questions when they're

 

      23        through.

 

      24             Thank you.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Hainline.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           82

 

 

       1             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

       2             Jim, welcome.

 

       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

       4             Jim Robinson.  My address is 6500 Bowden

 

       5        Road, Suite 290.

 

       6             I was asked to evaluate this site, both the

 

       7        existing store location in the triangle area, as

 

       8        well as its proposed relocated site across the

 

       9        street.

 

      10             And in the third page of your little

 

      11        booklet on this matter is an aerial photograph

 

      12        that shows this, and one of the things that I

 

      13        would briefly characterize as the difference

 

      14        between before and after is the nature of -- and

 

      15        number of traffic conflicts that exist.

 

      16             Today, the -- in the condition where the

 

      17        Gate store is located, traffic that is coming

 

      18        from the west headed east, in order to enter the

 

      19        store location --

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Jim, can I get you to flip

 

      21        that over so north is on top?  You kind of

 

      22        weirded me out.

 

      23             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thanks.

 

      25             MR. ROBINSON:  I'll leave that alone.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           83

 

 

       1             Anyway, the -- now you've got me flipped

 

       2        out.

 

       3             So we've got from the west to east and --

 

       4        for traffic to enter the store location, this

 

       5        entering off of McCormick has to actually make a

 

       6        U-turn at the location into a driveway that is

 

       7        very close to the intersection of this little

 

       8        cross-street here (indicating) or

 

       9        cross-connection between Fort Caroline and

 

      10        McCormick.

 

      11             Looking at this location during peak

 

      12        periods, both in the morning and the afternoon,

 

      13        that causes a lot of extra conflict coupled with

 

      14        traffic that's coming from Fort Caroline headed

 

      15        back to the west on McCormick with the very

 

      16        short distance from the intersection to the

 

      17        driveway.  Actually, even this afternoon a

 

      18        couple of near-miss rear-end collisions were

 

      19        witnessed.

 

      20             If the location of the store is over at the

 

      21        proposed site, then access is controlled in a

 

      22        very standard, signalized intersection,

 

      23        something that drivers are comfortable with

 

      24        negotiating and expect to -- as they would come

 

      25        and go.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           84

 

 

       1             The other point about the site as it exists

 

       2        today -- it is true that the Gate station

 

       3        portion of the site is expected to have

 

       4        additional fueling stations in the new

 

       5        configuration.  And presumably if it were to

 

       6        stay and be redeveloped in the triangle, it

 

       7        would -- it would want to have those additional

 

       8        fueling positions as well.

 

       9             So it's likely that the after condition

 

      10        will, in fact, be an increase of traffic and

 

      11        that will be dealt with during concurrency, but

 

      12        that would only exacerbate the problem in the

 

      13        triangle area if there was more traffic there.

 

      14        It would be much safer to be in the proposed

 

      15        location.

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      17             Drew.

 

      18             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Drew Frick with Gate

 

      20        Petroleum Company, 9540 San Jose Boulevard,

 

      21        Jacksonville, Florida 32257.

 

      22             I want to tell you a little bit about the

 

      23        history of this process because we've been

 

      24        working on it over four years.

 

      25             But before I start that, I wanted to make

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           85

 

 

       1        it clear what we're not doing, and that is Gate

 

       2        has not done any clearing on the site.

 

       3        Everything that has occurred to date is the

 

       4        JTA.  They are working on a retention pond for

 

       5        that site.  That will go forward regardless of

 

       6        what happens with this transmittal and what

 

       7        happens with this Gate station.

 

       8             You've heard of the impacts from that.  You

 

       9        will hear of the impacts from that.  You've

 

      10        heard of the impacts to the triangle parcel.

 

      11        And what we did four years ago is we went to the

 

      12        community with an idea and a plan to try to

 

      13        offset some of those impacts and really come up

 

      14        with a community plan for this area and an

 

      15        overall improvement to the area, and what that

 

      16        involved and what evolved from that process was

 

      17        taking the existing uses on the entire triangle

 

      18        parcel -- there's both the Gate station as well

 

      19        as a strip center.  Those are outdated, 40 years

 

      20        old or so, and certainly in need of improvement.

 

      21             And what we have committed to do is to

 

      22        close, remove, and demolish those existing uses;

 

      23        to clean the site; donate it to the City in a

 

      24        clean, clear state; place it in conservation to

 

      25        prevent any future development of that site,

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           86

 

 

       1        which will certainly address the traffic impacts

 

       2        that we just heard of; as well as create a

 

       3        greenspace area and really a better front door

 

       4        for the community as a whole.

 

       5             Along with that, we worked on the retention

 

       6        pond site with the JTA.  Originally, it had the

 

       7        rectangular-shaped pond that you see all over

 

       8        town.  That was reshaped to be a more

 

       9        curvilinear-type design, hopefully more

 

      10        aesthetically appealing to the community.

 

      11             And in doing that, we're also able to

 

      12        create another -- a second greenspace area that

 

      13        we will donate to the City as well.  And that is

 

      14        here (indicating), adjacent to Buck Park and the

 

      15        Holly Oaks Community Club.

 

      16             So the first big benefit is, obviously, the

 

      17        greenspace areas that are created along

 

      18        Wonderwood Expressway to help alleviate some of

 

      19        the impacts that are already there and deal with

 

      20        the traffic safety issues that occur in and

 

      21        around the triangle parcel.

 

      22             We worked on relocating the Gate site

 

      23        across the road.  This is a four-way lighted

 

      24        interchange, so safety is also a big reason for

 

      25        doing that.  And then here recently, we have

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           87

 

 

       1        worked with Councilman Bishop on creating a

 

       2        site-specific store, and his charge to us was to

 

       3        create a residential-looking convenience store.

 

       4             And if you flip through the packets that

 

       5        you have, you'll see some of the details of that

 

       6        architecture, and we've certainly gone to great

 

       7        lengths to try to create a residential-looking

 

       8        store.

 

       9             And in a minute, Ken Wilson will come up

 

      10        here and tell you about some specific conditions

 

      11        that we've also worked on with regards to that

 

      12        store.  One big one is that we have committed to

 

      13        maintaining this lake.  And if you look in your

 

      14        books, you'll also see some pictures of not only

 

      15        the rectangular ponds that the JTA uses -- they

 

      16        have so many ponds that at times they get a

 

      17        little overlooked as far as maintenance.

 

      18             And there's some pictures in that store of

 

      19        our Kendall Town development, which has a JTA

 

      20        pond in it that we maintain.  And having us

 

      21        there on the site to maintain that pond will

 

      22        improve the quality of that site.

 

      23             So we believe, from a community

 

      24        perspective, we've created some public use areas

 

      25        to offset the impacts, aesthetic controls,

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           88

 

 

       1        conditions on the actual use as well as improve

 

       2        the safety by relocating to a lighted

 

       3        interchange.

 

       4             I'll let Mr. Wilson come up here and tell

 

       5        you a little bit about the conditions we've

 

       6        worked out with the specific neighbors in the

 

       7        community to address their impacts.

 

       8             Thank you very much.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Drew.

 

      10             Ken.

 

      11             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      13             My name is Ken Wilson, 3929 Charter House

 

      14        Drive.

 

      15             You've heard the history, you've heard

 

      16        we've come through four years.  We haven't come

 

      17        through four years because it's been road

 

      18        blocked.  It's just been a lot to accomplish in

 

      19        four years.

 

      20             As we get to this point in our history, we

 

      21        have tried to address each of the concerns of

 

      22        the adjoining residents.  We're still working

 

      23        our way through some of those.  We also have

 

      24        tried to address some of the common sense

 

      25        concerns that you'd address in any situation

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           89

 

 

       1        like this.

 

       2             I'd like to cover those with you if I can.

 

       3        A list of these are in the back of your booklet

 

       4        you have.  There's also sort of a bullet list of

 

       5        the 13 conditions back there that summarize

 

       6        them.

 

       7             The first one is to place the triangle

 

       8        properties in conservation land use.  You heard

 

       9        that.  That's pretty self-explanatory.  That

 

      10        would be done before we operate this store.  We

 

      11        cannot open the doors on the store without that

 

      12        happening.

 

      13             Donate the clean triangle property to the

 

      14        City.  We would be responsible for all cleanup,

 

      15        along with JTA, of the existing facilities, the

 

      16        fish market, the dry cleaners and the Gate

 

      17        station on the property.  We do all the

 

      18        environmental cleanup and site clearing.

 

      19             Limitation of use under neighborhood

 

      20        commercial.  What we're proposing is the land

 

      21        use change and ultimate zoning would only allow

 

      22        for a convenience store operation such as a Gate

 

      23        store on this site.  No other commercial use or

 

      24        any other use would be allowed.

 

      25             Access to McCormick was an issue with the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           90

 

 

       1        Holly Oaks Community Club.  We addressed that.

 

       2        We removed the access drive to McCormick -- to

 

       3        the Fulton right-of-way, excuse me, and our

 

       4        access will be solely to the McCormick

 

       5        right-of-way, which is now the Wonderwood

 

       6        Expressway, at the signalized intersection and

 

       7        possibly a right in, right out as depicted on

 

       8        the site plan.

 

       9             Architectural controls.  Those are pretty

 

      10        self-explanatory.  You've seen the quality of

 

      11        what we'll do.  Those will specifically be

 

      12        attached as depicted.  This isn't we're going to

 

      13        build it somewhat like this (indicating).  We'll

 

      14        build it like you see it as depicted.

 

      15             The buffers around the store.  The store

 

      16        will have a 50-foot natural buffer along the

 

      17        western property line abutting residential.  It

 

      18        will have a 25-foot landscape buffer along the

 

      19        southern property line abutting the lake, which

 

      20        is still several hundred feet before you get to

 

      21        the southern property line of the JTA property

 

      22        as depicted on the site plan.

 

      23             Limitation on store hours.  The operations

 

      24        of the store will be limited to 6:00 a.m. to

 

      25        11:00 p.m.  Deliveries, dumpster service will be

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           91

 

 

       1        limited to 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.  Limitations

 

       2        on lighting controls and on lighting design,

 

       3        we've already gone through some specifications

 

       4        with Councilman Bishop.  We're working on an LED

 

       5        light system that would be recessed.  There

 

       6        would be no sort of lighting visible such as

 

       7        this to any of the adjoining neighbors.  You'd

 

       8        have to be directly under the canopy to see the

 

       9        light source.

 

      10             Our parking lot lighting would be handled

 

      11        the same way in some of the areas around where

 

      12        there's parking.  There would be no visible

 

      13        light sources.  And LED, if you're familiar with

 

      14        that, is a lower intensity lighting.

 

      15             Location and screening of dumpsters.  That

 

      16        has been moved to the eastern property, away

 

      17        from residential, and will be screened with

 

      18        construction materials similar to the building

 

      19        itself.  A buffer around the JTA pond -- an

 

      20        additional 25-foot buffer will be placed around

 

      21        the JTA pond.

 

      22             Security fencing provided around the entire

 

      23        property, securing the site from vagrants.

 

      24        Maintenance of the JTA pond is on Gate Petroleum

 

      25        Company.  We will maintain it.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           92

 

 

       1             There's a couple of pictures in that

 

       2        brochure also of a typical JTA pond on

 

       3        Wonderwood --

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ken.

 

       5             MR. WILSON:  -- currently built and

 

       6        established.  You see what is typical of the

 

       7        Transportation Authority's maintenance.  I'm not

 

       8        picking on JTA.

 

       9             There's also a picture of the Kendall Town

 

      10        retention pond that has JTA water in it --

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ken.

 

      12             MR. WILSON:  -- from the interchange that

 

      13        we maintain.

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Your time is up.

 

      15             MR. WILSON:  Okay.

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  The next speaker is

 

      17        John Fox, followed by Dianne Wiles.

 

      18             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is John Fox.  I

 

      20        reside at 2046 Challeux Drive West,

 

      21        Jacksonville, Florida 32225.

 

      22             Thank you committee, chairman, and members

 

      23        for the opportunity to speak today.  I'm a

 

      24        resident of the Laudonniere neighborhood, and I

 

      25        am objecting to ordinance 2008-857 for the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           93

 

 

       1        purpose of relocating the Gate gas station on

 

       2        the south side of McCormick Road.

 

       3             I have a list of items I'm entering in the

 

       4        public record tonight, which are being given to

 

       5        you right now.

 

       6             On page 1 is a June 2nd, 2006, letter to

 

       7        St. Johns River Water Management District in

 

       8        opposition to JTA's request for pond number 6

 

       9        redesign for the purpose of making the parcel of

 

      10        land a residential low density attractive for

 

      11        commercial development.

 

      12             On page 2 of the letter shows JTA pond

 

      13        number 6 design plan with a new Gate facility

 

      14        included on this, and this is dated 2006.

 

      15             Next on page 5 is a letter dated

 

      16        September 25, 2006, to Mike Saylor, director of

 

      17        Planning and Development --

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Fox, can I get you to

 

      19        slow down just a little bit.  It's kind of hard

 

      20        for our court reporter to keep up when you're

 

      21        reading something.

 

      22             MR. FOX:  Sure.

 

      23              -- which expressed our neighborhood's

 

      24        concerns with JTA's pond redesign in order to

 

      25        prepare the parcel of residential low density

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           94

 

 

       1        land for relocation of the Gate station or a

 

       2        commercial development without having to go

 

       3        through the land use change process, which shows

 

       4        disregard for preserving the current residential

 

       5        land use and assumes that the land use change to

 

       6        neighborhood commercial is a done deal before

 

       7        the process is even started.

 

       8             On page 8 and 9, our supporting technical

 

       9        staff report comments evidencing commercial

 

      10        development intent by JTA, which we feel

 

      11        undermines Jacksonville's Planning and

 

      12        Development process.

 

      13             On page 11 is our objection to support in

 

      14        detail, which, in summary, notes the proposed

 

      15        ordinance is inconsistent with several elements

 

      16        of the 2010 comprehensive plan.  One of -- the

 

      17        Wonderwood connector corridor land use and

 

      18        zoning study dated April 2002 and adopted by the

 

      19        City Council, the neighborhood commercial land

 

      20        use category definition, and it generates

 

      21        several community safety concerns.

 

      22             On page 14 are comments addressing the

 

      23        staff report for the Planning Commission.

 

      24             On page 18 is a CPAC opposition letter.

 

      25             On page 20 is the Greater Arlington Civic

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           95

 

 

       1        Council opposition letter.

 

       2             On page 22 are petitions with 34

 

       3        Laudonniere neighbors' signatures in opposition

 

       4        to ordinance 2008-857 and the proposed

 

       5        relocation of the Gate station, which are

 

       6        represented by the shaded area that's on your

 

       7        screens in the neighborhood.

 

       8             The only one is the pie slice in the

 

       9        middle, and that was the letter that is in

 

      10        Gates' package.

 

      11             In addition, starting on page 48 are

 

      12        several miscellaneous letters of objection over

 

      13        the past three years.

 

      14             This is just a bad thing for the

 

      15        neighborhood.  We do not want it.

 

      16             And we thank you very much.

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      18             Ms. Wiles followed, by Mr. Hawkins.

 

      19             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.

 

      21        Dianne Wiles, 10663 [sic], 32225.

 

      22             I'm passing out a couple of handouts.  The

 

      23        first one I'd like to go over is the stipulated,

 

      24        amended, and restated taking of this land.  I

 

      25        really just want to go over item number 6, which

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           96

 

 

       1        is on page number 3, and it states, "The

 

       2        Jacksonville Transportation Authority agrees

 

       3        that any use or conveyance of the surplus land

 

       4        will be limited and restricted to those uses

 

       5        currently permitted either by right or by

 

       6        special exception under the existing land use

 

       7        designation of low density residential in either

 

       8        the primary or secondary zoning districts,

 

       9        except those uses as follows:  any uses

 

      10        consisting of adult entertainment, services" --

 

      11        and it goes on to say what is not allowed on

 

      12        this land.

 

      13             This is an eminent domain case.  I don't

 

      14        even know if this is legal.  I know there was a

 

      15        law passed this year -- actually in 2006, saying

 

      16        you can't take surplus land and convey it over

 

      17        to commercial enterprise or a private person, so

 

      18        I think a little bit of research needs to be put

 

      19        into that.

 

      20             Also, when this was from -- this is from --

 

      21        I'll submit this for the record (indicating); I

 

      22        didn't have time to make enough copies -- from

 

      23        John T. Davis to the development committee to

 

      24        recommend that the board authorize for this to

 

      25        go through.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           97

 

 

       1             And one of the paragraphs he says,

 

       2        "Additionally, the City desires to have the site

 

       3        currently occupied by the Gate station in the

 

       4        JTA-owned commercial building to be cleared."

 

       5        I'm not sure who initiated this from the City.

 

       6        That sounds a little different.

 

       7             But anyway, to the pictures, I just wanted

 

       8        to go over a little bit with the pictures just

 

       9        to kind of show you up close and personal what's

 

      10        going on here.

 

      11             JTA actually only took five feet of the

 

      12        Gate property where they currently are.  They

 

      13        redesigned the road and moved it behind the Gate

 

      14        gas station and took most of the property from

 

      15        the post office that's behind there.

 

      16             The Gate gas station has been there for

 

      17        20 years.  That's where the community accepts

 

      18        it.  It is totally surrounded by roads.  Once

 

      19        everything opens back up, Fort Caroline will be

 

      20        open, Wonderwood.  They'll have an entrance on

 

      21        each side and they could actually demolish the

 

      22        unsightly strip center that's there and have

 

      23        three entrances.  And they don't abut any

 

      24        residential property where they are now, and it

 

      25        functions just fine.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           98

 

 

       1             The applicant has stated that it's not

 

       2        functional.  I go in and out of that shopping

 

       3        center.  It functions just fine.

 

       4             A lot to get in in three minutes, five

 

       5        years of history.  I apologize.

 

       6             Number 2 is another view of the existing

 

       7        Gate gas station showing the JTA surplus land

 

       8        there in the triangle which they could turn over

 

       9        to Gate or sell to Gate -- I don't know what

 

      10        would be proper -- so that Gate could expand and

 

      11        add more gas pumps there.  Of course, you

 

      12        wouldn't be able to have a 16-pump gas station

 

      13        which they're proposing across the street.

 

      14             There's a lot of information here and not

 

      15        enough time to do it in three minutes, but I do

 

      16        greatly appreciate your time and the careful

 

      17        consideration to the legality of this.

 

      18             Thank you.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Dianne.

 

      20             Lad, followed by Karen Finnell.

 

      21             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      22             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Lad Hawkins.

 

      23        I live at 1924 Holly Oaks Lake Road West.

 

      24             I'm the president of the Greater Arlington

 

      25        Civic Council.  I'm on the CPAC Land Use and

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           99

 

 

       1        Zoning Committee, and I'm a past president of

 

       2        the Holly Oaks Community Club adjacent to this

 

       3        proposed gas station site.

 

       4             Both the Greater Arlington Civic Council

 

       5        and the CPAC have unanimously opposed this for

 

       6        years.  Now, how anybody can come up here and

 

       7        say that this is something that this community

 

       8        wants -- I've been to two community meetings

 

       9        where there were a couple hundred people and

 

      10        everybody there opposed it, so I'm not seeing

 

      11        any people that think this is a great idea.

 

      12             Gate needs to stay right where they are.

 

      13        Right now they have a piece of land that is

 

      14        about an acre.  They're taking 2,160 feet off of

 

      15        that, which is only 4.9 percent.  This is a

 

      16        tiny, little strip.

 

      17             Under our zoning code, when eminent domain

 

      18        is involved, you can actually get a waiver for

 

      19        your setback, your 10-foot landscape from the

 

      20        road because it's eminent domain, so they could

 

      21        have the same exact area they have now.

 

      22             In addition to that, JTA owns the fish

 

      23        market and the cleaners, which is a chunk out of

 

      24        this property, which JTA has offered to give to

 

      25        Gate.  This adds another 12,506 square feet,

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           100

 

 

       1        giving Gate 1.28 acres in that triangle that

 

       2        they could develop a nice gas station.

 

       3             JTA has worked very hard to move this

 

       4        roadway over into the post office property so

 

       5        that the Gate property is virtually untouched,

 

       6        and there's no reason why they cannot stay where

 

       7        they are.

 

       8             The traffic here -- in their analysis, they

 

       9        say that there's so many square feet of building

 

      10        now and there's so many square feet later.

 

      11        That's all good and well, but they're going from

 

      12        four pumps to sixteen pumps.  And the traffic is

 

      13        going to increase from 312 to 360 percent.  It's

 

      14        a huge increase in traffic that's going to occur

 

      15        on this piece of property above and beyond what

 

      16        was in that triangle before.

 

      17             This is not appropriate.  It's spot

 

      18        zoning.  And, as such, the Wonderwood corridor

 

      19        study very clearly states that this is a -- this

 

      20        is something that will set a domino effect.  And

 

      21        once you approve a land use, a gas station in

 

      22        low density residential, then somebody down the

 

      23        road is going to come in and ask for the same

 

      24        thing and we're not going to be able to tell

 

      25        them no.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           101

 

 

       1             The whole reason we had the Planning

 

       2        Department do this study was so that we could

 

       3        hold the line on this sort of thing, and this is

 

       4        exactly what we do not want to start.

 

       5             Thank you very much.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Lad.

 

       7             Karen, followed by Oz Baker.

 

       8             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

       9             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hello.

 

      10             I'm Karen Finnell, 2066 Challeux Drive,

 

      11        Laudonniere, Jacksonville, Florida.

 

      12             First of all, I want to say I'm extremely

 

      13        opposed to ordinance 2008-857, and I would like

 

      14        to say I do not know what neighbors Gate refers

 

      15        to when they say they have talked to some of our

 

      16        neighbors and they are for this.  I have yet to

 

      17        have one person I know or anybody representing

 

      18        any part in the neighborhood stand up at any

 

      19        meeting and say they want it.

 

      20             Also, where the traffic light now is, we

 

      21        have to do a U-turn when we come out of our

 

      22        street to make a left going west.  The Gate

 

      23        station, where they propose it, is right smack

 

      24        in the middle of where the traffic light is.  It

 

      25        will be very dangerous to have that intersection

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           102

 

 

       1        there with Gate as they propose.

 

       2             Over 30 years ago, my husband and I

 

       3        searched for a location to build a house.  We

 

       4        chose Challeux Drive because of the beauty of

 

       5        the property and of the neighborhood.  We built

 

       6        our house and left the entire lot as it is,

 

       7        retaining all the trees, bushes and undergrowth

 

       8        as nature grew them.  A Gate station would

 

       9        greatly reduce the way of life we currently

 

      10        enjoy and our tranquility.

 

      11             For more than 30 years, our neighborhood

 

      12        has coexisted with the current Gate station.  We

 

      13        endure the noise and lights there now.  The

 

      14        noise level will be quitely [sic] increased if

 

      15        the Gate station is moved to South McCormick.

 

      16        The safety of our homes will also be in more

 

      17        jeopardy, and any lights they use reflect or

 

      18        brighten our area.  The retention pond that JTA

 

      19        is building will amplify those problems.

 

      20             We do not want a Gate station at the

 

      21        proposed location.  There's enough property

 

      22        where the Gate station is now to build a bigger

 

      23        Gate station.  Maybe not 16 pumps, but more than

 

      24        the four they have now.

 

      25             If money is the only consideration that

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           103

 

 

       1        Gate's using, then maybe they do need to build a

 

       2        16-pump station there.  If Gate truly cares

 

       3        about the neighborhood, then they will not move.

 

       4             Thank you.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Oz, followed by Brenda Fox.

 

       6             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, council.

 

       8             My name is Oz Baker, 2066 Challeux Drive

 

       9        West.

 

      10             The current gas station has been, you know,

 

      11        at that location about 35 years, as you've

 

      12        already heard.

 

      13             The JTA can make whatever deal necessary

 

      14        for Gate to develop its approximately 1.5 acres

 

      15        of that triangle land where it now sits.  We

 

      16        suggest that the extra land, which is the

 

      17        proposed gas station site, be incorporated into

 

      18        the Buck Park and Holly Oaks Forest Community

 

      19        and Swim Club.  This would provide a usable,

 

      20        expanded community gathering place and benefit

 

      21        the whole community.

 

      22             A gas station at this site will reduce our

 

      23        real property values greatly.  We have already

 

      24        had to endure noise, lights, and such strong

 

      25        vibrations through our homes and every cell of

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           104

 

 

       1        our body that they rival seismic activity.  A

 

       2        gas station will cause irreparable damage to our

 

       3        safety due to criminal activity which will

 

       4        endanger our children.  And you can imagine all

 

       5        the ways.  You've heard them before.

 

       6             Then there's the inherent dangers from fuel

 

       7        spills, fires, explosions, poisoning in the

 

       8        environment.  Frankly, oil and water don't mix

 

       9        well and would ruin any so said environmental

 

      10        preservation.

 

      11             We respectfully ask that -- a vote against

 

      12        this site to mitigate the deterioration of our

 

      13        safety and life-styles.  The so-called traffic

 

      14        problems with the new U-turn -- it didn't used

 

      15        to be that way.  It was created by the JTA and

 

      16        could be reversed.

 

      17             The part of the land that they said --

 

      18        which is actually south of McCormick and on

 

      19        McCormick Road where they said now they don't

 

      20        have as much land.  Well, they only used about

 

      21        five feet of their land.  They took the road

 

      22        into our properties on our side.

 

      23             And what they didn't show you -- I'm

 

      24        sorry.  What they didn't show you in this

 

      25        picture here is where all the trees were.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           105

 

 

       1             Can I pick this up?

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.

 

       3             MR. BAKER:  Okay.  Great.  All right.

 

       4             This used to be all forest right here

 

       5        (indicating).  Okay.  With foxes, owls, all

 

       6        sorts of wildlife.

 

       7             Now the light -- the eastern light comes

 

       8        through the windows of our homes.

 

       9             We actually reside right here (indicating)

 

      10        at this property, but all these properties along

 

      11        here (indicating) in the -- I'm sorry.  They

 

      12        live right there.

 

      13             But the east light comes into the windows,

 

      14        and there's plenty of room right here

 

      15        (indicating).

 

      16             And when -- the other thing they had up

 

      17        here like this, they showed it all nice and

 

      18        green like a cartoon, you know.  But actually

 

      19        our home is right there.  And the 50-foot buffer

 

      20        of vegetation, that's ours.  You know, it's not

 

      21        like they're giving us anything.  They've

 

      22        actually promised a 20-foot buffer here

 

      23        (indicating), but they mowed all those trees

 

      24        down anyway.

 

      25             And then -- we don't need it in our

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           106

 

 

       1        neighborhood, and we respectfully ask that you

 

       2        please vote against this.

 

       3             Thank you.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Baker, I've got a

 

       5        question for you.

 

       6             Now, it's my understanding that this was

 

       7        all done by JTA and not Gate; is that correct?

 

       8        All those trees you're talking about got mowed

 

       9        down?

 

      10             MR. BAKER:  Yes.  I kind of think JTA and

 

      11        Gate are kind of connected.  You know what I

 

      12        mean?

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.

 

      14             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Applause.)

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Brenda Fox, followed by

 

      16        Jack Miller.

 

      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Brenda Fox,

 

      19        and I live at 2046 Challeux Drive.

 

      20             And I ask your patience.  This is a very

 

      21        emotional subject for me.

 

      22             I was raised adjacent to the gas station,

 

      23        just like I will be when this gas station gets

 

      24        here, so I know the effects of a gas station on

 

      25        a child when you are trying to play in your

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           107

 

 

       1        yard, and I cannot go into all the specifics.

 

       2             Anyway, that's why I may give the facts to

 

       3        everybody else, and I ask your patience for me

 

       4        to try to read this e-mail that I received from

 

       5        a neighbor who could not be here.

 

       6             It says, "Please see the e-mail that we

 

       7        sent to Mr. Ken Wilson.  Since we cannot attend

 

       8        the meeting tomorrow, may we ask that you submit

 

       9        this e-mail into the record."

 

      10             It's very short.  It's page 49 of your

 

      11        booklet, but I wanted to be sure you hear it.

 

      12             It says, "Dear Ken.

 

      13             "This e-mail is from both Robena Crook

 

      14        (phonetic) and William and Stella Lane.  We were

 

      15        told that at the last meeting, in which neither

 

      16        of us attended, gas representatives may have

 

      17        said we were in favor of the Gate gas station

 

      18        relocation on McCormick.  That is not accurate.

 

      19        When you called Robena for a visit, you

 

      20        indicated that you had some ideas that could be

 

      21        of help to us."

 

      22             As I read this, I want you to realize that

 

      23        this has been a four-year nightmare for our

 

      24        neighbors.  This is not a day at work for us.

 

      25        This is energy zapping.  I'm sorry.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           108

 

 

       1             To go on, it says, "The three of us met

 

       2        with you, at which time we shared our concerns

 

       3        with you regarding the Gate gas station as well

 

       4        as the JTA, and you presented some options that

 

       5        you may have and possibilities of getting us a

 

       6        fence regardless of Gate coming in.

 

       7             "During our discussion, none of us -- none

 

       8        of us indicated in favor of the Gate gas station

 

       9        being relocated to McCormick and any

 

      10        representation of such kind are inaccurate.

 

      11             "We appreciate your input and consideration

 

      12        of our concerns and regret any

 

      13        miscommunication.

 

      14             "Since we cannot attend the meeting

 

      15        tomorrow, we will give a copy of this e-mail to

 

      16        John Fox to insert into the record.

 

      17             "Sincerely, Robena Crook, William and

 

      18        Stella Lane."

 

      19             I have been praying for four years, and I

 

      20        pray that somehow you open your hearts and do

 

      21        not listen to the sales pitch and please listen

 

      22        to the people who will be affected.  Where they

 

      23        are now could be beautifully done if they wanted

 

      24        to do it.  They do not want to do it.

 

      25             And forgive me, but what more can it be

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           109

 

 

       1        than greed when you could have maybe 10 there

 

       2        and you need 16 here.

 

       3             It would be beautifully done where it is.

 

       4        I please ask you to consider this.

 

       5             If you have any questions, I've been

 

       6        keeping up with everything for four years.  I've

 

       7        been losing the night sleep which didn't happen

 

       8        before.  I'm a child advocate and we like to

 

       9        spend time with children in our back yard.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ma'am.

 

      11             MS. FOX:  Does that mean my time was up?

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Your time is up.

 

      13             MS. FOX:  I'm sorry, sir.

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's all right.

 

      15        Thank you.

 

      16             The last speaker is Jack Miller.

 

      17             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'll waive and stand

 

      18        opposed.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      20             That is all we have for the public hearing.

 

      21             If there's nobody else to speak, we will

 

      22        close the public hearing, and we will bring it

 

      23        back to the committee.

 

      24             Mr. Bishop, did you want to speak before or

 

      25        after we hear the amendment?

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           110

 

 

       1             MR. BISHOP:  I'll wait till after the

 

       2        amendment.

 

       3             Thank you.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

       5             Staff, let's hear the amendment.

 

       6             MS. ELLER:  To the committee, the amendment

 

       7        adds the language that was proposed by

 

       8        Mr. Hainline.  If you could confirm the subject

 

       9        of that, I'd appreciate it.  I think Mr. Crofts

 

      10        has the e-mail, but I'd prefer to have it read

 

      11        into the record.

 

      12             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)

 

      13             MR. HAINLINE:  As I understand, you're

 

      14        asking me to read the conditions into the

 

      15        record, which is fine.

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.

 

      17             MR. HAINLINE:  Okay.  What we submitted was

 

      18        a list of conditions that had been requested

 

      19        by -- over the course of many community meetings

 

      20        and had been requested by Mr. Bishop to be

 

      21        placed into this transmittal legislation as

 

      22        conditions.

 

      23             So I'm going to read from the last couple

 

      24        pages from your booklet is where you can follow

 

      25        me, and stop me if at any point I've read enough

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           111

 

 

       1        or I don't need to read any more.

 

       2             It would be to add a new Section 3, which

 

       3        is called "Approval subject to conditions."

 

       4             "The approval of the transmittal of this

 

       5        future land use amendment to the DCA and other

 

       6        State agencies for review is subject to the

 

       7        following conditions, which also shall be set

 

       8        forth in the application for planned unit

 

       9        development rezoning of the subject property as

 

      10        a companion to the adoption of this proposed

 

      11        amendment, in addition to any other conditions

 

      12        in the PUD rezoning which the City Council may

 

      13        deem appropriate.

 

      14             A.  Prior to the adoption of this

 

      15        transmittal ordinance an application for an

 

      16        amendment to the future land use map of the

 

      17        comprehensive plan shall be filed with the City

 

      18        of Jacksonville for the properties owned by Gate

 

      19        Petroleum Company, paren, approximately

 

      20        .55 acres at RE number such and such and

 

      21        approximately .23 acres at RE number such and

 

      22        such, closed paren, and the Jacksonville

 

      23        Transportation Authority, paren, approximately

 

      24        .5 acres with no RE number, close paren, located

 

      25        across McCormick Road and to the west of the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           112

 

 

       1        subject property, collectively the triangle

 

       2        properties, requesting that triangle properties

 

       3        be designated as conservation, paren, CSV, close

 

       4        paren.

 

       5             Alternatively, prior to the adoption of

 

       6        this transmittal ordinance, the owners of the

 

       7        triangle properties shall authorize or consent

 

       8        to such amendment being initiated by the City of

 

       9        Jacksonville and/or district councilperson,

 

      10        period.

 

      11             Come down, sub B.

 

      12             Prior to the issuance of any certificates

 

      13        of occupancy for proposed structures on the

 

      14        subject property, number 1, a bond shall be

 

      15        posted naming the City of Jacksonville as

 

      16        beneficiary for the demolition of all structures

 

      17        on the triangle properties, debris removal, and

 

      18        site stabilization by the owners of the triangle

 

      19        properties.

 

      20             And, 2, Title to the triangle properties

 

      21        shall be conveyed to the City of Jacksonville or

 

      22        its designee at no cost to the City of

 

      23        Jacksonville in satisfactory condition for use

 

      24        or development by the city as greenspace/public/

 

      25        community use, period.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           113

 

 

       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Hainline.

 

       2             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't see any need in you

 

       4        reading all that.

 

       5             MR. HAINLINE:  Okay.  That's why I

 

       6        confirmed.  I mean, I'm happy to read or not

 

       7        read.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Shannon, is there anything

 

       9        specific you want to make sure that's in the

 

      10        record?  Other than that, let's move on.

 

      11             MS. ELLER:  The Planning Department

 

      12        indicated that there was potentially some

 

      13        removal of properties, so that would require a

 

      14        revised legal or a revised map.

 

      15             Can you guys confirm that for me, if that's

 

      16        part of this amendment or if that's not?

 

      17             MR. KELLY:  That's not one of the

 

      18        agreements.

 

      19             Through the Chair, it was to remove the

 

      20        access from Fulton Road as one of the

 

      21        conditions, so -- negating the need for the land

 

      22        use change on that portion of the property.

 

      23             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes, sir, Mr. Kelly.

 

      24             That certainly shows on the site plan that

 

      25        we have submitted in the booklets that there is

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           114

 

 

       1        no access over at Fulton.  However, if you want

 

       2        us to remove that from the transmitted

 

       3        amendment, we're happy to do that.  And if you

 

       4        want to either pick a number like 20 or 50 feet

 

       5        so you know that we're not going to access

 

       6        there, we can do that, or we can attempt to

 

       7        scale off at what looks like -- at what looks

 

       8        like at least 50 feet from Fulton, we can

 

       9        take -- we can take that property -- we can come

 

      10        back 50 feet off of Fulton with our plan

 

      11        amendment.  That way it's absolutely crystal

 

      12        clear that we will never, under any

 

      13        circumstances, be accessing Fulton with this.

 

      14             MS. ELLER:  Then just to confirm, the

 

      15        Planning Department will provide a revised map

 

      16        showing that revised property boundary for

 

      17        transmittal to be attached to the ordinance, and

 

      18        we can less and except that portion from the

 

      19        attached legal.

 

      20             MR. HAINLINE:  Okay.

 

      21             MS. ELLER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      22             MR. HAINLINE:  That's fine.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

      24             Thank you, Mr. Hainline.

 

      25             MR. HAINLINE:  You didn't enjoy my

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           115

 

 

       1        reading?

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  No, I did not.

 

       3             Okay.  We've got an amendment, and it was

 

       4        moved and seconded.

 

       5             Mr. Bishop.

 

       6             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

       7             Most of my comments I will have we'll save

 

       8        until after the amendment is dealt with, but

 

       9        suffice it to say that the contents of the

 

      10        amendment are essentially what we discussed, are

 

      11        appropriate.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.

 

      13             I see nobody else wants to speak to the

 

      14        amendment.

 

      15             All in favor of the amendment signify by

 

      16        saying aye.

 

      17             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

      19             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved

 

      21        the amendment.

 

      22             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended.

 

      23             MR. JOOST:  Second.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill has been moved and

 

      25        seconded as amended.

 

 

 

 

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       1             Mr. Bishop.

 

       2             MR. BISHOP:  As everyone has stated --

 

       3        thank you, Mr. Chairman -- on this whole thing,

 

       4        this has been a four-plus-year ordeal for a lot

 

       5        of folks for a lot of different reasons.  And

 

       6        it's interesting that every time there's a

 

       7        meeting or a discussion about this, something

 

       8        new pops up.

 

       9             This is the first time I'd seen a copy of

 

      10        this court order having to do with the

 

      11        condemnation of property, and it brings some

 

      12        interesting things to light because we did spend

 

      13        quite bit of time with the applicant to work out

 

      14        what -- in a sense, while it may not be ideal,

 

      15        certainly does do a number of things that can be

 

      16        positive.

 

      17             Number one, it does not increase the total

 

      18        net commercial in the area.  It moves it from --

 

      19        it does move it from one side of the street to

 

      20        the other.  The configuration of that road in

 

      21        there is an abomination and I think anybody --

 

      22        if you're here from JTA, you ought to be

 

      23        embarrassed by that thing because it's just a

 

      24        traffic travesty.

 

      25             And if you ask me later, I'll tell you what

 

 

 

 

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       1        I really think about it.

 

       2             But be that as it may, it isn't very good.

 

       3        And this does, I believe, help create a

 

       4        situation that would be safer than if the thing

 

       5        was in the middle of the triangle in some

 

       6        respects.  Not to say that that can't be fixed,

 

       7        it certainly can, but what they built doesn't

 

       8        work very well.

 

       9             It provides for an opportunity to provide

 

      10        for some increased park space.  It does provide

 

      11        for the maintenance of a pond that otherwise, as

 

      12        we all know throughout the city, would end up

 

      13        being a rat trap and a weed haven.

 

      14             And it does provide for the opportunity for

 

      15        that lake to become actually a public amenity on

 

      16        the park because it will be maintained and it

 

      17        will be contiguous with properties that will

 

      18        become expanded park space.  All those things

 

      19        are good.

 

      20             The bad part of it is it would get moved

 

      21        across the street.  And also this document does

 

      22        create some question that I think legally ought

 

      23        to be answered because, while I had a discussion

 

      24        with Mr. Kelly a second ago, neighborhood

 

      25        commercial zoning is an acceptable secondary

 

 

 

 

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       1        zoning district in LDR, which I found

 

       2        surprising, but it is -- that's what's in the

 

       3        code.

 

       4             This document would prohibit the sale of

 

       5        alcoholic beverages for either on- or

 

       6        off-premise consumption without permission -- or

 

       7        without approval of the defendants in the case,

 

       8        which would be the McCormick trust folks.

 

       9             Now, I don't know if anybody has asked them

 

      10        if this is a good idea and have they given their

 

      11        permission for this.  That's a legal question I

 

      12        think we ought to have answered somewhere along

 

      13        the line.

 

      14             If they say no, then what does that do to

 

      15        this whole thing and what does that do to their

 

      16        standing in this case?  That's just a question I

 

      17        ask because I don't know the answer to that.

 

      18             And, Ms. Eller, you might know, but I

 

      19        don't.

 

      20             Do you know?

 

      21             MS. ELLER:  No.  I haven't reviewed that

 

      22        document.

 

      23             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  I would suggest that it

 

      24        might be a good idea for you to do so before a

 

      25        vote is taken, that we don't go down a road

 

 

 

 

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       1        somewhere that we get ourselves in trouble.

 

       2             Now, granted, this is only transmittal

 

       3        round.  It's not the final round and it will

 

       4        come back again, but somewhere along the process

 

       5        that ought to be identified.  I guess that's my

 

       6        only real hangup at this point.

 

       7             There's a lot of good things about it,

 

       8        there's a lot of bad things about it.  At the

 

       9        end of the day, on balance, I think it's -- it

 

      10        has the opportunity to create something

 

      11        positive, even though it is not exactly the best

 

      12        thing in the world.

 

      13             But this little deal right here probably

 

      14        ought to get answered before we get down the

 

      15        road too far on this thing.

 

      16             Thank you.

 

      17             MS. ELLER:  To the Chairman, the -- if

 

      18        there are -- if it's a restriction regarding

 

      19        permitted uses, as long as the City does not

 

      20        permit those uses, you're in compliance, and

 

      21        that can be prohibited in the PUD.

 

      22             Neighborhood commercial in and of itself is

 

      23        a broad permission under land use, so I don't

 

      24        think that by designating it neighborhood

 

      25        commercial somebody can come back -- it's if we

 

 

 

 

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       1        ended up issuing a permit under the PUD for a

 

       2        convenience store to open with that use that

 

       3        we'd likely get into trouble.

 

       4             But, again, I haven't reviewed it, so I can

 

       5        review that in more detail for you.

 

       6             MR. BISHOP:  Through the Chair to

 

       7        Ms. Eller, I agree with that.  It does tend to

 

       8        say that.  What it would tend to me to say is

 

       9        that you would -- a convenience store, it would

 

      10        not be allowed to sell beer and wine is what

 

      11        would be allowed under -- at least according to

 

      12        this document.

 

      13             MS. ELLER:  (Nods head.)

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Webb.

 

      15             MR. WEBB:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      16             Through the Chair to General Counsel's

 

      17        Office.

 

      18             Shannon, one quick question for you.  If

 

      19        this is voted down this evening, what is the

 

      20        posture with respect to the next round of

 

      21        transmittals?

 

      22             MS. ELLER:  The typical transmittal cycles

 

      23        run six months apart, so if you vote this down

 

      24        this evening, the next transmittal cycle it

 

      25        could be brought before you again for

 

 

 

 

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       1        consideration.

 

       2             The reason why is because the transmittal

 

       3        is not the final vote on the land use.  If you

 

       4        transmitted it, it came back, and then denied it

 

       5        at the adoption round, it may come into play.

 

       6        There may be some res judicata -- administrative

 

       7        res judicata or limitations on bringing back the

 

       8        same application within a certain amount of

 

       9        time.

 

      10             But with regard to transmittal, again, it's

 

      11        the preliminary step.  If it's denied for

 

      12        transmittal at this point, there's nothing that

 

      13        prevents them from coming back in six months to

 

      14        try for transmittal again.

 

      15             MR. WEBB:  So (inaudible) the same effect

 

      16        and come back in six months?

 

      17             MS. ELLER:  Yes, sir.

 

      18             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Through the Chair, I

 

      19        guess -- I had a prior conversation with the

 

      20        developer.  I didn't declare it because it's

 

      21        not -- ex-parte is not necessary in this --

 

      22        inasmuch as this is legislative and not

 

      23        quasi-judicial.

 

      24             However, to the extent that we're tacking

 

      25        on conditions that would ultimately be

 

 

 

 

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       1        incorporated into a PUD, it is effectively

 

       2        quasi-judicial.

 

       3             But that -- having said that, I think that

 

       4        begs the whole question and another flaw in the

 

       5        process of the PUD process.  Maybe the zoning

 

       6        process that we were faced with, this is the

 

       7        tail wagging the dog again, and I think this

 

       8        raises a serious issue.

 

       9             And I did commit to the developer or the

 

      10        applicant that, you know, given -- I would defer

 

      11        to the district council representative on this

 

      12        insofar as he was supportive of it.  I don't

 

      13        hear that the district councilperson is, in

 

      14        fact, supportive of this project.

 

      15             That being the case, I do have some serious

 

      16        questions as to the propriety of the process as

 

      17        it's being outlined here for us.  Again, I go

 

      18        back to my comments.  This is the tail wagging

 

      19        the dog.

 

      20             Again, what we're doing is we're putting

 

      21        the transmittal that the comp- -- above -- and

 

      22        we're putting -- we're bootstrapping.  We're

 

      23        effectively making a determination as to what we

 

      24        want to put on this property and then going back

 

      25        and reinventing the wheel or modifying the comp

 

 

 

 

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       1        plan to provide for that appropriate use.

 

       2        Okay?  That -- that's a problem.  And I think

 

       3        that's something that we need to be very mindful

 

       4        of.  It's coming up in the context of this bill

 

       5        and another bill that's before us this evening.

 

       6             That being the case, notwithstanding my

 

       7        prior discussion with the developer, I'm not

 

       8        going to support this.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Yarborough.

 

      10             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Thank you, Mr. Graham.

 

      11             I appreciate yours and the committee's

 

      12        indulgence.

 

      13             I too had met with -- I met with Mr. Frick

 

      14        and Mr. Hainline last week and had expressed

 

      15        general support.  They listened to some concerns

 

      16        that I had, but tonight I have to say there were

 

      17        two serious questions that I have, even in light

 

      18        of that meeting.  And I know I'm not a voting

 

      19        member of the committee, but it will affect my

 

      20        final vote on this if it's at Council Tuesday,

 

      21        and one relates to what I was told last week.

 

      22             Mr. Frick, I believe you shared with me

 

      23        that Mr. Wilson had talked to Ms. Lane and some

 

      24        others that were on Challeux Drive South that

 

      25        are on -- that would abut the south part of the

 

 

 

 

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       1        property, just south of where the lake would be,

 

       2        and I believe -- and please correct me if I'm

 

       3        wrong -- you're Mr. Wilson.  I want to make sure

 

       4        it's right.  I know it's on the record.

 

       5             But to my recollection, you had said that

 

       6        after speaking with them that they were --

 

       7             (Mr. Wilson approaches the podium.)

 

       8             MR. WILSON:  Yes, please.

 

       9             MR. YARBOROUGH:  -- that they were not

 

      10        opposed to it.  And the reason I'm bringing that

 

      11        up is because Ms. Fox pointed out this letter

 

      12        from Ms. Crook and Mr. and Ms. Lane, Stella

 

      13        being one of those, that says they're -- they

 

      14        are not supportive of it.  So I just wanted to

 

      15        clarify it.  I really can't tell, so --

 

      16             MR. WILSON:  I understand.  I appreciate

 

      17        the opportunity to clarify that, Councilman.

 

      18             We did meet last Wednesday night at Benny

 

      19        Crook's home, and the Lanes live directly

 

      20        adjacent to them.  The discussion went

 

      21        comfortably well.  We had some give and take.

 

      22        We discussed the issues of security and

 

      23        buffering, noise.  A lot of things the

 

      24        conditions address.

 

      25             We ended that meeting talking about how the

 

 

 

 

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       1        fencing would take place, what visual screening

 

       2        would be committed to and done by Gate.  And

 

       3        went over the conditions that you've read

 

       4        tonight, some of which we've added to since that

 

       5        time.

 

       6             At the end of that meeting with

 

       7        Ms. Crook -- the Lanes had departed at that

 

       8        point and gone home.  They were very

 

       9        complementary of the project at that point, but

 

      10        I wasn't representing what they said.

 

      11             But I asked Ms. Crook.  I said, based on

 

      12        the meeting this evening -- I don't want to

 

      13        misrepresent anything that's been said here --

 

      14        is it accurate to say that while you do not

 

      15        embrace Gate's zoning of this site for a

 

      16        convenience store, you would not oppose it if we

 

      17        meet these conditions?  And she said that's

 

      18        accurate.  You're welcome to make that statement

 

      19        to the councilmember and to my neighbors.

 

      20             So that was the nature of the response.

 

      21        There was no they've approved our zoning.

 

      22             Likewise, Mr. McDermott at the Holly Oaks

 

      23        Community Club, I don't feel I got a raving

 

      24        endorsement of the zoning.  However, he agreed

 

      25        he was not opposed to our zoning if we cured the

 

 

 

 

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       1        Fulton Road access driveway issue, which has now

 

       2        been cured.

 

       3             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Okay.  And I appreciate

 

       4        that.

 

       5             You said after the -- this was after the

 

       6        Lanes had left when that --

 

       7             MR. WILSON:  Yeah, the discussion about --

 

       8             MR. YARBOROUGH:  -- when that conversation

 

       9        transpired?

 

      10             MR. WILSON:  -- not opposing the zoning

 

      11        took place with Ms. Crook.

 

      12             At the same meeting, at that point the

 

      13        Lanes had just departed and left.  So the two --

 

      14        two parties that have indicated they would not

 

      15        oppose based on these conditions is

 

      16        Mr. McDermott at the Holy Oaks Club, and

 

      17        Ms. Crook.  Just those two.

 

      18             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Okay.  I appreciate that.

 

      19             Thank you, Mr. Wilson.

 

      20             Mr. Chairman, the other concern I had --

 

      21             And, Mr. Fox, if you could come up and

 

      22        answer one question for me.

 

      23             In the packet that you gave us, the 50-page

 

      24        packet or so, page 2 has a drainage map

 

      25        rendering, and it looks like many others that we

 

 

 

 

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       1        see.  It's got the reconfigured pond 6 and it

 

       2        says New Gate facility on it.  And the date here

 

       3        was interesting to me.  I think it reads

 

       4        June 30th of 2004.  I just wanted to see -- it

 

       5        says Boeing Engineering on it.  Where was the

 

       6        map?  Just so we know where the --

 

       7             MR. WILSON:  That map I received on

 

       8        June 1st, 2006, from JTA, from Bob Oakland

 

       9        (phonetic).

 

      10             MR. YARBOROUGH:  It was from JTA?

 

      11             MR. WILSON:  Yes.

 

      12             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Okay.  And you concur the

 

      13        date on here is June 30 of '04 that's on this

 

      14        drainage map here?

 

      15             MR. WILSON:  I believe so.

 

      16             I -- the date I received it was on June --

 

      17        like it was June 1st, 2006.

 

      18             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Okay.  I appreciate that.

 

      19        I just -- I wasn't sure who it was received

 

      20        from.

 

      21             Mr. Chairman, the reason I brought it up is

 

      22        because it's just very peculiar to me.  It says

 

      23        New Gate Facility on it, but this is dated over

 

      24        four years ago.  And I guess just the point I'll

 

      25        make is, how -- how it -- how, four years, ago

 

 

 

 

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       1        would anyone have known that there would be

 

       2        approval for a Gate station to be there?  It's

 

       3        just kind of interesting.

 

       4             It's a JTA map, so I think somebody else

 

       5        put a -- I don't know, just something that stood

 

       6        out that I hadn't seen before.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  It just looks like somebody

 

       8        just stamped an old map that says "New Gate

 

       9        Facility."

 

      10             MR. HAINLINE:  If you'd like clarification,

 

      11        we can provide that, but it's up to you.

 

      12             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Mr. Hainline, if you would

 

      13        like to try to clarify what I've asked -- that's

 

      14        the way it appears to me.

 

      15             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Yarborough, there were

 

      16        community meetings as of 2004 between Gate

 

      17        Petroleum and the neighbors.  It was no secret

 

      18        in 2004 what was being discussed.  Remember that

 

      19        Mr. Frick stood up and spoke and said this has

 

      20        been discussed for years.

 

      21             We submitted to the Planning Commission,

 

      22        and I can go back and get it and submit it to

 

      23        you, correspondence from -- who, at that time,

 

      24        were purported to us to be representatives of

 

      25        the neighborhood behind where they stated that

 

 

 

 

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       1        there was no opposition to the Gate station.

 

       2             So the Gate station was openly being

 

       3        discussed between Gate and neighbors as of

 

       4        2004.  It was no secret then, it's no secret

 

       5        now.  So I don't know who wrote that on that JTA

 

       6        map, but it certainly was no secret then.

 

       7             MR. YARBOROUGH:  I appreciate you

 

       8        clarifying that.  I had not seen it.  I

 

       9        appreciate that.  And, like I said, it was dated

 

      10        June of '04.  And then two pages back, there's

 

      11        one from the same contractor of May of '06.  And

 

      12        all it says is future commercial development.

 

      13        It doesn't make any indication that it may or

 

      14        may not be a Gate station.

 

      15             MR. HAINLINE:  If it would be helpful to

 

      16        you, I can provide you with the letter from the

 

      17        community member regarding 2004 meetings when

 

      18        the Gate station --

 

      19             MR. YARBOROUGH:  I recall there were

 

      20        meetings at the time.  I did not know that that

 

      21        was discussed specifically at that time, though,

 

      22        so I appreciate that.

 

      23             Thank you.

 

      24             Thank you, Mr. Graham.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Joost.

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. JOOST:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

       2             A couple of questions.  First would be

 

       3        to -- through the Chair to legal.  Under this

 

       4        document right here, the Jacksonville

 

       5        Transportation Authority is the petitioner.

 

       6        Okay.  On page 3, paragraph 6, can you clarify

 

       7        to me exactly what that is saying?  And, you

 

       8        know, break it down.

 

       9             MS. ELLER:  (Peruses document.)

 

      10             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  While you're looking

 

      11        that over, I've got a couple of other questions

 

      12        or points I'd like to make.

 

      13             If this is turned down at this process and

 

      14        Gate doesn't go through with this, what are the

 

      15        residents left with?  I mean, they'll be --

 

      16        number one, I hear you, Mr. Webb, talking about

 

      17        we've got the tail wagging the dog, but -- and

 

      18        there may be flaws in the process, but you've

 

      19        got to look at what is there right now.  I mean,

 

      20        the land has already been cleared by the JTA,

 

      21        you know.  There's nothing that can be done

 

      22        about that.  That's all water under the bridge.

 

      23             If we don't do this, what kind of buffers

 

      24        will the residents have?  Will there be any

 

      25        buffers at all and they're just looking at

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        barren land or a lake?

 

       2             Can somebody from the Planning Department

 

       3        or over there tell me, if this doesn't go

 

       4        through, what will the residents be left with?

 

       5             MR. CROFTS:  Basically, they'll be left

 

       6        with what is there now.  They'll be left with a

 

       7        retention pond and a -- somewhat of a buffer on

 

       8        the west.  But, as I understand it, there is no

 

       9        basic buffer, just a wire fence on the south

 

      10        side.  It's pretty much open.  So it's the

 

      11        status quo.

 

      12             MR. JOOST:  It sounds pretty -- I mean,

 

      13        just to me, it sounds like they'll be left -- it

 

      14        will kind of look somewhat blighted.  I don't

 

      15        know if there's another word for it.

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Bishop could answer for

 

      17        you.

 

      18             MR. JOOST:  Mr. Bishop.

 

      19             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 

      20             Through the Chair to Councilmember Joost.

 

      21        JTA is responsible for replanting a buffer

 

      22        around the pond as a part of their work in

 

      23        building that retention pond.

 

      24             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And then my last

 

      25        question, I guess, would be for Mr. Bishop.

 

 

 

 

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       1             As amended, do you want me to support this

 

       2        or not?

 

       3             MR. BISHOP:  That's a very good question,

 

       4        and the problem that I have with this is what I

 

       5        said at the very beginning.  This is not -- this

 

       6        is -- this has positives and it has negatives.

 

       7             In my ideal world, we would defer this

 

       8        until we could get answers to some of these

 

       9        things.  As I understand it, we've got a

 

      10        transmittal problem because this is a package,

 

      11        part of a bigger thing, and so therein lies the

 

      12        problem.

 

      13             At the end of the day, I'm probably going

 

      14        to do something I'm going to regret, but I'm

 

      15        going to say that I don't have a problem passing

 

      16        it because, again, it is only a transmittal.

 

      17        And I hate doing that.  I don't like doing that

 

      18        at all.

 

      19             But at the end of the day, there are still

 

      20        a lot of unanswered questions that if we can't

 

      21        get proper answers to them, we can kill it at

 

      22        the final.  And that doesn't hold up everybody

 

      23        else that's tagged along under this semiannual

 

      24        package.

 

      25             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.  I appreciate your

 

 

 

 

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                                                           133

 

 

       1        candor.

 

       2             Shannon, have you had a chance to read that

 

       3        paragraph?

 

       4             MS. ELLER:  I have.

 

       5             I'm hesitant to tell you exactly what it

 

       6        means because my --

 

       7             MR. JOOST:  I didn't understand it when I

 

       8        read it.  I mean, it says --

 

       9             MS. ELLER:  Well, I would like to first --

 

      10        I'd like to true up the legal description as

 

      11        to -- as to the property that it applies to, and

 

      12        then I'd like to see if this is the final final

 

      13        or if there was any subsequent action under this

 

      14        case number, and then to find out if there's

 

      15        been any -- you know, any discussions between

 

      16        JTA and anybody who could enforce this

 

      17        particular restriction, to find out if anything

 

      18        has been done to remove the restriction.

 

      19             So I just -- I can't provide an answer

 

      20        as -- I mean, on its face it says that whatever

 

      21        the subject property is, that if the JTA

 

      22        transfers it, that they would, as a condition of

 

      23        that transfer, not allow certain uses.

 

      24             But, again, I think that it needs to be

 

      25        vetted and, you know, I just need to get the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           134

 

 

       1        whole picture on what this applies to.

 

       2             MR. JOOST:  I guess I have one more

 

       3        question for Mr. Wilson of Gate Petroleum.

 

       4             Can you come up here, sir.

 

       5             (Mr. Wilson approaches the podium.)

 

       6             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.

 

       7             Were you aware of this possible

 

       8        restriction?

 

       9             MR. WILSON:  No, I wasn't.  I'm not clear

 

      10        on -- I'm kind of in the same boat with you on

 

      11        this restriction.  I'm not aware of what that

 

      12        is.

 

      13             (Mr. Frick approaches the podium.)

 

      14             MR. JOOST:  Would it be beneficial to you

 

      15        if we deferred this?  We could figure out what

 

      16        exactly this means or no?

 

      17             MR. WILSON:  Can I allow Drew Frick to

 

      18        speak to that?

 

      19             MR. JOOST:  Yes, please.

 

      20             MR. WILSON:  I think he's more clear on

 

      21        that subject than I am.

 

      22             MR. FRICK:  I can speak to that.

 

      23             Drew Frick.

 

      24             This has been going on for a number of

 

      25        years.  And actually when it started, we were

 

 

 

 

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                                                           135

 

 

       1        working with both the JTA and the McCormick

 

       2        family on this whole process.

 

       3             During the process the McCormick family and

 

       4        the JTA went forward with the takings on that

 

       5        piece, so they were aware of everything that we

 

       6        were doing.  And I can't speak for the McCormick

 

       7        family, but they were working well with us on

 

       8        this very plan.

 

       9             On the zoning, I think the Planning

 

      10        Department can talk about it being allowed as a

 

      11        secondary use in that category.  Again, they

 

      12        were aware of this before they drafted that

 

      13        document.

 

      14             On the liquor sales, my understanding of

 

      15        what they were trying to do -- and it's not very

 

      16        well drafted -- is to prevent a liquor store

 

      17        from coming to that site.  And we will vet all

 

      18        that out, and we can do that between now and the

 

      19        rezoning, but it was not to prevent a Gate

 

      20        station from going on that use and something

 

      21        that sells beer or wine only for off-premises

 

      22        consumption.

 

      23             So I can ask -- I don't have the document

 

      24        in front of me.

 

      25             MR. JOOST:  Well, it says -- and we'll

 

 

 

 

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                                                           136

 

 

       1        provide a copy, but, I mean, it says, quote, and

 

       2        service of all alcohol beverages, including

 

       3        liquor, beer, or wine for on-premises

 

       4        consumption or off-premises consumption.

 

       5             MR. FRICK:  Right, Councilman Joost.

 

       6             And my point on that -- and I think it's

 

       7        poorly drafted, but what they were trying to do

 

       8        is say something that serves all of those:  a

 

       9        liquor store that has liquor, beer, and wine, or

 

      10        a bar that has liquor, beer, and wine.  They

 

      11        weren't intending to prevent beer and wine.

 

      12             It needs to be clarified and we'll get the

 

      13        clarification.  Certainly we can't get a zoning

 

      14        and work with the JTA on this unless we've got

 

      15        support of --

 

      16             Really that agreement is between the

 

      17        McCormicks and the JTA.  And the McCormicks can

 

      18        enforce it against the JTA, and we'll have to

 

      19        work with them to get that clarification, but --

 

      20             MR. JOOST:  Let me ask you this:  If -- I

 

      21        mean to me it's pretty clear.  It says liquor,

 

      22        beer, or wine.  I can't really read intent

 

      23        between the lines.  I mean, it's kind of like

 

      24        the election trying to read doubles.  That's

 

      25        probably bad to bring up now.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           137

 

 

       1             But I can't read the intent on this.  I

 

       2        mean, to me, it's black and white.  It says

 

       3        including liquor, beer, or wine.  So if you're

 

       4        not allowed to sell beer or wine, does that

 

       5        change your business model?

 

       6             MR. FRICK:  It will do two things:

 

       7             Obviously, before the PUD goes forward,

 

       8        we'll have to work that condition out.  We do

 

       9        sell beer or wine.  That's a big part of our

 

      10        business.

 

      11             And, again, the word that I look at

 

      12        there -- and it's not well drafted -- is the

 

      13        "all."  They were looking at something that

 

      14        encompasses all three of these things.

 

      15             The zoning code -- I think they may have

 

      16        picked some of it up from the zoning code.  It

 

      17        makes distinctions at times between the sale of

 

      18        all liquors versus beer or wine, and I think

 

      19        they were trying to catch that broader category.

 

      20             I understand your point in reading it, and

 

      21        you can read it on a plain face way to say it

 

      22        looks like they wanted to exclude everything.

 

      23             We'll have to work that out with the

 

      24        McCormick family.  Again, that's an agreement

 

      25        between the McCormicks and the JTA.  And we will

 

 

 

 

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                                                           138

 

 

       1        be working with the JTA on acquiring a portion

 

       2        of this property to do the Gate station, and

 

       3        that Gate station we intend to have beer or

 

       4        wine.

 

       5             So the PUD that gets approved, they could

 

       6        certainly have beer or wine.  It would put us

 

       7        and you, rightly so, in a position where you

 

       8        approve something that's not allowed with what

 

       9        the JTA agreed with the McCormicks.  JTA would

 

      10        have to answer that, we'd have to answer to that

 

      11        and fix that problem, but we're going to do it

 

      12        well before then is my point, and we'll get

 

      13        clarification to that agreement between those

 

      14        two parties because, again, the McCormicks were

 

      15        side by side with us whenever we started this

 

      16        process, as well as the JTA.  Those three

 

      17        parties were working together towards this

 

      18        goal.

 

      19             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  I got you.

 

      20             One last question to legal.  I may think of

 

      21        something else.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  You said one last question

 

      23        three times already.

 

      24             MR. JOOST:  Yeah.  One last, last, last

 

      25        question.

 

 

 

 

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       1             When you say "conveyance," does that mean

 

       2        it's actually restricted in the deed and title

 

       3        of the land and, therefore, at that point going

 

       4        forward you can no longer sell beer or wine

 

       5        because that's a restriction that the buyer

 

       6        agreed to and now that becomes part of the land

 

       7        deed or title?

 

       8             MS. ELLER:  Well, I think that, as Drew

 

       9        mentioned, it's poorly drafted, but I think the

 

      10        most restrictive reading would be that -- when

 

      11        it says any use or conveyance of the surplus

 

      12        land will be limited and restricted, I think the

 

      13        words "limited and restricted" could be read to

 

      14        put a deed restriction on it so that whoever

 

      15        acquired the land would be prevented from doing

 

      16        the things that are enumerated.

 

      17             But, as Mr. Frick mentioned, this is an

 

      18        agreement between JTA and the McCormicks, and so

 

      19        those two parties have the right to modify this

 

      20        upon agreement of those two parties.

 

      21             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Clear as mud because

 

      22        it's not perfect -- it's not clear to me that

 

      23        the JTA and the McCormicks have modified it.

 

      24             MS. ELLER:  You are correct.

 

      25             There's nothing that we have before us

 

 

 

 

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       1        tonight to confirm that the conditions, however

 

       2        poorly drafted in this particular document, have

 

       3        been modified.  All you have is the commitment

 

       4        from Mr. Frick that they've all been working

 

       5        closely together and that that issue will have

 

       6        to be ultimately resolved before this committee

 

       7        and the council makes their final decisions on

 

       8        the uses and the zoning.

 

       9             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And, I'm sorry, but it

 

      10        just keeps going on.

 

      11             Are we setting ourselves up for possible

 

      12        litigation down the road if we continue forward

 

      13        with this?

 

      14             MS. ELLER:  I don't think at this point

 

      15        we're setting ourselves up for litigation

 

      16        because, again, it's just a transmittal and the

 

      17        neighborhood commercial land use designation is

 

      18        just a policy decision regarding future uses on

 

      19        the piece of dirt.

 

      20             Ultimately, when you do approve a

 

      21        particular land use on adoption with its

 

      22        companion rezoning, you'll be taking a look at

 

      23        the uses.

 

      24             You know, whether or not it's appropriate

 

      25        for you to permit a use if you know that there's

 

 

 

 

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                                                           141

 

 

       1        some outside document that prevents it -- you

 

       2        know, it's not as if by approving it you're

 

       3        guaranteeing that it will happen.  But, again,

 

       4        it is an issue that will have to be resolved

 

       5        because, as I understand from the discussions

 

       6        here, you wouldn't want to grant a use through a

 

       7        PUD zoning that you know is somehow prohibited

 

       8        by this other document between two other

 

       9        parties.

 

      10             MR. JOOST:  One more question.

 

      11             Mr. Hainline --

 

      12             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)

 

      13             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes, sir.

 

      14             MR. JOOST:  -- would you rather proceed or

 

      15        defer until we get this straighten out?  Because

 

      16        I don't like doing something I'm not totally

 

      17        clear about.  And then if later on we go down

 

      18        this process and at some point we're going to

 

      19        get to the hour and to the point where we either

 

      20        do it or we don't do it -- and now we've had an

 

      21        11th hour change to the business model of Gate

 

      22        Petroleum, you guys want to go back and

 

      23        reconsider this situation knowing that there's

 

      24        probably -- I would say at this point at least a

 

      25        possibility, if not a probability, we're not

 

 

 

 

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                                                           142

 

 

       1        going to allow beer or wine sales at this

 

       2        location.

 

       3             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Joost, I would answer

 

       4        that pretty much the same way as I stated at the

 

       5        outset.

 

       6             We don't view this transmittal vote as an

 

       7        approval of the station there, as an approval of

 

       8        a PUD, as an approval -- as an adoption of an

 

       9        amendment.  We view this as a transmittal, which

 

      10        is a step in the process in which we continue

 

      11        discussions with Mr. Bishop; with the neighbors;

 

      12        with JTA; and, if necessary, having looked at

 

      13        all the legal documents, with the McCormicks and

 

      14        the JTA.

 

      15             This is just a step in the process, and a

 

      16        deferral of this would slow everything down for

 

      17        six months.  It wouldn't -- it wouldn't help us

 

      18        resolve or not resolve the issue one way or the

 

      19        other.  It would just be another slow-down in

 

      20        the process that has been slow to begin with.

 

      21             So we view this transmittal vote as simply

 

      22        a step in the process.  That is an issue which

 

      23        we will need to resolve.  If it doesn't resolve

 

      24        in a way that's satisfactory for us, we'll

 

      25        either withdraw the amendment or appear with

 

 

 

 

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                                                           143

 

 

       1        some modification at adoption time.

 

       2             But this is just a step in the process, and

 

       3        the way we look at that is one of many issues,

 

       4        in addition to our continuing discussions with

 

       5        Mr. Bishop and the neighbors to resolve that.

 

       6             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  I think that's -- that's

 

       7        fair enough.  I just don't want anybody to come

 

       8        back -- say we do move forward, and then come

 

       9        back in six months and say, well, we really

 

      10        hadn't anticipated this in --

 

      11             MR. HAINLINE:  No, sir.  Clearly --

 

      12        clearly, we're now -- and Mr. Frick was on

 

      13        notice of that provision.

 

      14             And when I was doing my reading of the

 

      15        conditions, you may have noticed that at the

 

      16        beginning, not only did we say the conditions

 

      17        that are in this, but we understand there may be

 

      18        additional conditions that Mr. Bishop, the

 

      19        neighbors, the Planning Department imposes upon

 

      20        us in a companion PUD coming up, or even in the

 

      21        adoption of the amendment.

 

      22             And so there are conditions that we

 

      23        acknowledge that may come on us in this process

 

      24        throughout, so this is one of those things.

 

      25             MR. JOOST:  That's fair enough.  Thank you

 

 

 

 

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                                                           144

 

 

       1        for answering my question.

 

       2             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Your seventh final

 

       4        question?

 

       5             Mr. Bishop.

 

       6             MR. BISHOP:  Just a couple of quick

 

       7        comments toward the end here.

 

       8             With respect to this agreement that we're

 

       9        now discussing, I think it is very pertinent

 

      10        because this whole process, as I understand it

 

      11        from my predecessor, has been going on since

 

      12        2004, if not before.  The date of this agreement

 

      13        is 2006, two years after the fact.  So this

 

      14        working closely together thing, there's some

 

      15        issues there that I think need to be resolved.

 

      16             The other interesting thing is that one of

 

      17        the attorneys involved in this document is

 

      18        Rogers Towers, Mr. Hainline's firm.  And so

 

      19        there's a lot of questions involved in this

 

      20        thing that still have to be answered.  And I

 

      21        know from my perspective, speaking as a district

 

      22        councilman for this, if this does ultimately go

 

      23        through, I would certainly expect that any

 

      24        pertinent restrictions on that property be

 

      25        honored in however that gets done.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           145

 

 

       1             So at the moment I see a dry Gate station

 

       2        there if it does go through.

 

       3             Thank you.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't see any other

 

       5        speakers in the queue, so please open the

 

       6        ballot.

 

       7             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       8             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       9             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      10             MR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      11             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      12             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      13             MR. WEBB:  (Votes nay.)

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      15        the vote.

 

      16             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      17             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, one nay.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      19        approved 2008-857.

 

      20             Diane, hang with me two more minutes.

 

      21             Our court reporter has to rest her little

 

      22        fingers because she's been working feverishly

 

      23        over here, so we're going to take about a

 

      24        ten-minute break.

 

      25             But before we do that, I notice that I've

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           146

 

 

       1        got a lot of speaker cards for the top of

 

       2        page 19, 2008-889.  We're going to defer that

 

       3        bill.  That means basically we're not going to

 

       4        do anything for that for about the next six

 

       5        months, but we do have your cards.

 

       6             So if there's going to be town meetings set

 

       7        up, I'm sure Mr. Webb will have a meeting, there

 

       8        will be CPAC meetings because there's still some

 

       9        work that needs to be done on this.  And we're

 

      10        not going to spend three hours tonight trying to

 

      11        figure that out, so we're going to defer that.

 

      12             But I just want to let you guys know that

 

      13        so you don't have to sit around for the next

 

      14        ten minutes knowing that that's going to be

 

      15        deferred.

 

      16             MR. WEBB:  Through the Chair, there are

 

      17        quite a few people that have come down here this

 

      18        evening, and I want to thank you all for

 

      19        coming.  My understanding is the vast majority

 

      20        of the people who are present here this evening

 

      21        are opposed to this.

 

      22             I would ask anybody who came down in

 

      23        opposition to please rise and to acknowledge

 

      24        your presence.

 

      25             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Comply.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. WEBB:  Thank you very much.  I

 

       2        appreciate that.

 

       3             And let the record reflect that former

 

       4        Councilwoman Sharon Copeland is in presence

 

       5        tonight.  I'd like to acknowledge her and her

 

       6        opposition to this as well.

 

       7             Thank you.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  We're going to

 

       9        take a recess for the next ten minutes, so we

 

      10        will be back here at -- by 7:50 my time.

 

      11             (Brief recess.)

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Let's get started

 

      13        again.  We've got another request from a

 

      14        councilmember to take up.

 

      15             The top of page 17, 2008-879.  We have a

 

      16        public hearing on this, but -- Mr. Holt, do you

 

      17        want to say something before we open the public

 

      18        hearing?

 

      19             MR. HOLT:  No.  Let's let the applicant

 

      20        (inaudible).

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We'll open the public

 

      22        hearing.

 

      23             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Harden.

 

      25             MR. HARDEN:  Paul Harden, 501 Riverside

 

 

 

 

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       1        Avenue.

 

       2             Mr. Chairman, I know you have a stack of

 

       3        cards here, but I've been meeting over the last

 

       4        few days with representatives of the Heckscher

 

       5        Drive group, and I believe we've come to an

 

       6        accommodation where --

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  (Indicating.)

 

       8             MR. HARDEN:  Yes, well, they're not going

 

       9        to speak tonight, although they're here to

 

      10        register their opposition to the water

 

      11        related/water dependent.  Mr. Moore is going to

 

      12        explain their position.

 

      13             But what we would request is that -- this

 

      14        application contains two land use map

 

      15        amendments, but the water dependent/water

 

      16        related land use map amendment proposal will be

 

      17        deferred until the spring series, that we move

 

      18        forward with the commercial/general proposal and

 

      19        let it be transmitted.

 

      20             In the interim, we hope to develop a

 

      21        project that won't require the water

 

      22        dependent/water related activity on the site,

 

      23        but rather develop it consistent with the

 

      24        current land use.  It involves a road closure

 

      25        and a PUD and some other activities that we'll

 

 

 

 

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       1        be working on in the next several months.

 

       2             So unless anybody has any questions, that's

 

       3        all I've got.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Of the 105 acres, how much

 

       5        of it is the water dependent part and how much

 

       6        is the CGC part?

 

       7             MR. HARDEN:  12.7 acres is the CGC.  The

 

       8        remainder, 90-something acres, is the water

 

       9        dependent/water related.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.

 

      11             MR. HARDEN:  There's separate legal

 

      12        descriptions for the two applications, there's

 

      13        separate maps, so it won't be difficult to

 

      14        divide them out and defer the larger one and

 

      15        move forward with the CGC.

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, Mr. Harden, I have to

 

      17        definitely say I appreciate the fact that you

 

      18        were able to work out the details.

 

      19             MR. HARDEN:  Well, we're still working on

 

      20        the details, but we're not going to do it

 

      21        tonight in front of you.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  And who was the other

 

      23        speaker?

 

      24             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Moore, I think.

 

      25             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, name and address for

 

       2        the record.  And I take it you're speaking for

 

       3        these people (indicating)?

 

       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That's correct.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

       6             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I also wish to speak

 

       8        separately.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.

 

      10             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Mr. Donald R.

 

      11        Moore, 5965 Heckscher Drive.

 

      12             I'm chairman of the advisory board for the

 

      13        Heckscher Drive Community Club, and we

 

      14        appreciate Mr. Harden's position on moving the

 

      15        water dependent to the spring and would look

 

      16        forward to the pleasure vessel marina.  I think

 

      17        it's going to be -- transmitted is the next step

 

      18        for that, correct?

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.

 

      20             MR. MOORE:  Okay.  Now, we've had quite a

 

      21        few people come a long way to voice their

 

      22        opposition and show their opposition.  I'll ask

 

      23        the Chair if I could please ask them to rise to

 

      24        show their --

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Please, sir.

 

 

 

 

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       1             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Comply.)

 

       2             MR. MOORE:  And we had quite a few leave

 

       3        because of the -- thank y'all very much.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you guys for coming

 

       5        down.

 

       6             MR. MOORE:  And we appreciate working with

 

       7        you and we look forward to having a chance to

 

       8        sit with Mr. Harden and go over this in the

 

       9        future.

 

      10             Thank you very much.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

      12             Barbara Goodman from our Park Service,

 

      13        please come on down.

 

      14             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      15             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Barbara Goodman, 13165

 

      16        Mt. Pleasant Road, representing the National

 

      17        Park Service, the Timucuan Preserve, and I will

 

      18        be brief.

 

      19             We're also pleased to have the deferral of

 

      20        the water dependent/water related, and we will

 

      21        comment on that when it comes around again.

 

      22             I just want to remind everybody that this

 

      23        parcel is within the boundaries of the Timucuan

 

      24        Preserve, our national park, and it's also

 

      25        within the boundaries of a special management

 

 

 

 

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       1        area, and any of the decisions that we are

 

       2        making for this parcel need to ensure that the

 

       3        activity that goes on there is consistent with a

 

       4        national park setting.

 

       5             It's very difficult to comment when you

 

       6        don't know what the activity is that's going to

 

       7        happen there.  The commercial zoning allows for

 

       8        a whole lot of things.  We have heard only

 

       9        verbally the idea of perhaps a marina there, but

 

      10        we don't have anything that tells us what is

 

      11        really being -- what is intended for that

 

      12        property, so it's very hard to comment for or

 

      13        against when we don't know what it is.  It could

 

      14        be something that is just fine and consistent

 

      15        and it could be entirely inconsistent.

 

      16             So I just want to voice that it's -- that

 

      17        we are put in a very difficult situation because

 

      18        we cannot comment fairly when we don't know what

 

      19        the project is.

 

      20             So I just ask you to please remember that

 

      21        it is within a national park and that any

 

      22        decision that is made should reflect those

 

      23        values.

 

      24             We have concern about potential height

 

      25        problems and then about the access road, which

 

 

 

 

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       1        there's some rumor about the access road as

 

       2        well, and the information has not been presented

 

       3        nor have I been noticed on this project.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, we'll make sure that

 

       5        every single one of these cards is put into,

 

       6        like, a database so if there's meetings you guys

 

       7        will know about it.  And you've got a very

 

       8        sympathetic councilmember that's out there, so

 

       9        I'm sure he'll listen very well.

 

      10             MS. GOODMAN:  Thank you.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

      12             MR. HOLT:  Can I ask her a question,

 

      13        please?

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.

 

      15             Barbara, hold on for just a second.

 

      16             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 

      17             I just want to know -- clarify something.

 

      18             The property that we're talking about is

 

      19        private property --

 

      20             MS. GOODMAN:  Correct.

 

      21             MR. HOLT:  -- it's just surrounded by

 

      22        national park, essentially, right?

 

      23             MS. GOODMAN:  It is surrounded, but it is

 

      24        within the boundaries.

 

      25             We have a very unique national park here in

 

 

 

 

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       1        Jacksonville, that the boundary includes over

 

       2        300 private land owners, along with multiple

 

       3        federal, state, local agencies, so it is subject

 

       4        to your-all [sic] zoning, but it is within a

 

       5        national park and it is within a special

 

       6        management area, so that needs to be given the

 

       7        consideration.

 

       8             MR. HOLT:  So it's much like Black Hammock

 

       9        Island is?

 

      10             MS. GOODMAN:  Yes.

 

      11             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Thank you.

 

      12             MS. GOODMAN:  Thank you.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Bad example.

 

      14             Bobby Taylor.

 

      15             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      16             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Bobby Taylor.  I reside

 

      17        at 9441 Heckscher Drive, 32226.

 

      18             Some of you may already know, I'm the vice

 

      19        chair of the North CPAC.  In my capacity, I

 

      20        chair the Governmental Affairs.

 

      21             And I'm new to this job, and something I

 

      22        have noticed is that these semiannual

 

      23        transmissions that all sound very innocuous, as

 

      24        you have seen tonight, are not.  If this would

 

      25        have been allowed to be transmitted off to the

 

 

 

 

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       1        State to be WD/WR, when it came back, we would

 

       2        have been dealing with the prospect of working

 

       3        out what kind of WD/WR it was going to be.

 

       4             And this system is either designed to be

 

       5        flawed or is being gamed, I don't know which,

 

       6        but, you know, this particular ordinance was

 

       7        introduced on October 14th.  Now, it was between

 

       8        the cycle of the CPAC's meeting, so how can we

 

       9        vet something and interact with the community if

 

      10        it is introduced, heard at hearings, and

 

      11        transmitted off to the State before we ever have

 

      12        a chance to properly vet it, before it's

 

      13        properly vetted by you?  And it comes up here in

 

      14        a package where it's all or nothing.

 

      15             I would encourage you --

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, now, this thing was --

 

      17        it's just like all of our other bills, before we

 

      18        process -- between the time that it's introduced

 

      19        to the time that we take the final vote.  And I

 

      20        take it your CPAC meetings are at least once a

 

      21        month?

 

      22             MR. TAYLOR:  Yes.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, then you had time to

 

      24        meet --

 

      25             MR. TAYLOR:  No.  Our last meeting was the

 

 

 

 

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       1        October -- about the 12th or sometime prior to

 

       2        that, and then -- we meet the first Thursday of

 

       3        the Governmental Affairs, which we have it on

 

       4        our agenda for this Thursday.

 

       5             So the first chance that the CPAC would

 

       6        have to see it is -- if it had passed out of LUZ

 

       7        with a recommendation to approve, it would be on

 

       8        the full City Council agenda next week, prior to

 

       9        when we meet for the full CPAC.

 

      10             This happened in June, a whole package of

 

      11        things, one that was very contentious by one of

 

      12        your council members who fought it, and it had

 

      13        already been vetted through the process in a

 

      14        technical manner but had not been done in a

 

      15        manner that was open and transparent.  It was

 

      16        only through interaction of this community that

 

      17        we learned that this was happening in between

 

      18        our cycle.

 

      19             We met again -- October 12th was when the

 

      20        full CPAC meets.  I look at new introductions.

 

      21        I came here on October 14th.  I asked my

 

      22        district councilmember what this was about, you

 

      23        know.  Through both of our schedules, we didn't

 

      24        communicate until it came up last week.  And

 

      25        then when we knew what it was, that's when the

 

 

 

 

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       1        community got involved.

 

       2             So you see from October 14th to -- it could

 

       3        have possibly -- and these other things could

 

       4        possibly move through on the 10th, before I --

 

       5        we ever see it.

 

       6             And the notice was not properly done.  I

 

       7        mean, it -- you know, to his -- to Mr. Harden's

 

       8        credit, he agreed to withdraw it, but what if he

 

       9        hadn't been agreeable?  We would have been

 

      10        dealing with something that had been

 

      11        transmitted.  And, like I said, once the camel's

 

      12        nose is in the tent, this -- then you're dealing

 

      13        with that zoning as it is.

 

      14             If it gets introduced late, you should deny

 

      15        it because when you buy a piece of property, the

 

      16        only right that you have is what that property

 

      17        is zoned at at that point.  Anything else is a

 

      18        gift.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      20             MR. TAYLOR:  Thank you very much.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Now, was that -- everybody

 

      22        else is fine?

 

      23             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Indicating.)

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  You've got something you

 

      25        really want to say?

 

 

 

 

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       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Everybody else did.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Come on down, sir.

 

       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.  I appreciate

 

       5        it.

 

       6             My name is Andrew Laliscus (phonetic).  I

 

       7        reside at 12084 Houston Avenue, Big Talbot

 

       8        Island.

 

       9             I'm here to represent myself as well as

 

      10        Beeks, Incorporated.  We're a wildlife rehab

 

      11        organization.

 

      12             I'd like to add on to what Barbara had

 

      13        said.  We are losing so much wildlife habitat in

 

      14        this region, and especially within a preserve to

 

      15        consider zoning to go to.

 

      16             MS. GODWIN:  Or anything is just plainly

 

      17        insane.

 

      18             My reaction is -- I heard -- the first I

 

      19        heard of this was this afternoon.  My reaction

 

      20        was, this is nuts.

 

      21             And if you take a look at the land over

 

      22        there, most of it is marsh and the rest of it is

 

      23        pretty much -- a couple feet from becoming river

 

      24        bottom, and to go ahead and develop this

 

      25        intensely in any sort of way is absurd.

 

 

 

 

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       1             I'd also like to remind you that Charlie

 

       2        Bennett, who represented Jacksonville in this

 

       3        region honorably and so competently, used to set

 

       4        money aside from his paycheck to buy up this

 

       5        preserve, and this wasn't something that was an

 

       6        earmark or anything else.  Charlie was not a

 

       7        tree hugger.  As you know, he served on the

 

       8        Armed Services Committee for years and propped

 

       9        up Mayport Naval Station and air -- and the

 

      10        naval station down in -- down on Roosevelt

 

      11        Boulevard, and to go back and try to destroy

 

      12        what he started in setting up would really be

 

      13        disrespectful of him and what we're trying to do

 

      14        in this community to preserve some of the

 

      15        natural habitats as well as some of the natural

 

      16        recreation that people have in this community.

 

      17             Thank you, sir.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

      19             Okay.  We will close that public hearing.

 

      20             Mr. Holt.

 

      21             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 

      22             Some folks brought up good points about the

 

      23        CGC and what could be allowed.

 

      24             Ms. Eller, could we have a rundown of what

 

      25        could be allowed with a CGC land use, or

 

 

 

 

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       1        Mr. Crofts, whoever.

 

       2             MS. ELLER:  I'll defer to the Planning

 

       3        Department to list that.

 

       4             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, sir.

 

       5             MR. CROFTS:  The CGC land use, pursuant to

 

       6        the future land use element, allows a whole host

 

       7        of -- I'll try to summarize -- allows a whole

 

       8        host of commercial, retail, service, and

 

       9        supportive commercial-type uses, as well as

 

      10        in the -- in that particular district, we also

 

      11        allow residential up to 20 units per acre.

 

      12             So it's the -- it's the more general as

 

      13        opposed to neighborhood commercial or the RPI,

 

      14        which is more office.  CGC allows all of those

 

      15        uses plus the whole gamut of retail, service,

 

      16        and supporting commercial, and a residential

 

      17        density up to 20 units per acre.

 

      18             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.

 

      19             And my next question would be for the

 

      20        applicant, Mr. Harden.

 

      21             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)

 

      22             MR. HOLT:  I just wanted to get it on

 

      23        record --

 

      24             MR. HARDEN:  Well, before you -- can I

 

      25        remind -- you left something out.  We agreed to

 

 

 

 

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       1        put an asterisk on this transmittal to not allow

 

       2        residential because of the coastal high hazard

 

       3        area.  I just wanted to get that on the record.

 

       4             MR. HOLT:  That's good.

 

       5             MR. HARDEN:  We have designed on the site a

 

       6        marina use.  Generally -- I'm going to be at the

 

       7        Heckscher Drive community group at their

 

       8        December meeting.

 

       9             Generally speaking, it's going to be a

 

      10        marina-related facility with boat slips, dry

 

      11        storage.  There will be some retail.  Hopefully,

 

      12        a location of a restaurant use, ship store,

 

      13        probably a retail component of maybe

 

      14        20,000-something square feet in that portion of

 

      15        it, and then additional retail.  So it's

 

      16        intended to be an amenity to support the

 

      17        Sisters Creek activity.

 

      18             Notwithstanding what the gentlemen said,

 

      19        this piece of property faces straight across

 

      20        100 acres of water dependent/water related.

 

      21        This is intended to be a buffer between

 

      22        something less intense.

 

      23             To the immediate east of this -- west of

 

      24        this property is CCG-2, to the immediate west is

 

      25        water dependent/water related, to the immediate

 

 

 

 

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       1        south is water dependent/water related, and then

 

       2        to the immediate north is Sisters Creek.  So

 

       3        it's surrounded by currently zoned and

 

       4        designated water related and water dependent.

 

       5        We're trying to work with them now, but the

 

       6        marina activity is what's designed.

 

       7             MR. HOLT:  I just wanted to get it on the

 

       8        record as to what your intentions were so that

 

       9        when it comes back for a rezoning later everyone

 

      10        understands on the committee what we've been

 

      11        discussing, that it's a marina, and from our

 

      12        discussions earlier, that you had committed to

 

      13        me that it would be three levels, at the most,

 

      14        of dry storage --

 

      15             MR. HARDEN:  The dry stack will be limited

 

      16        to three levels, yes, sir.

 

      17             MR. HOLT:  -- so that we wouldn't be

 

      18        looking at something 50, 60 feet tall.

 

      19             MR. HARDEN:  Now, I don't know what the

 

      20        height is for dry stack.  I'm guessing 12 to 14,

 

      21        somewhere between 35 to 40 feet, but that's,

 

      22        again --

 

      23             MR. HOLT:  Right.

 

      24             MR. HARDEN:  Now, there will be a retail

 

      25        component, just related to the marina and --

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             MR. HOLT:  Right.

 

       2             These are recreation-type dry storage

 

       3        boats?

 

       4             MR. HARDEN:  Right.

 

       5             MR. HOLT:  We're not talking about

 

       6        industrial, like --

 

       7             MR. HARDEN:  No.

 

       8             MR. HOLT:  -- across the way at Atlantic

 

       9        Marine?

 

      10             MR. HARDEN:  That's correct.

 

      11             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Well, I'm supportive of

 

      12        the transmittal at this point, but I did want to

 

      13        get that on record so that we understand what's

 

      14        going to come back to us.

 

      15             Thank you.

 

      16             MR. HARDEN:  Thanks.

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  I take it we have an

 

      18        amendment since we have to split this?

 

      19             MS. ELLER:  Yes.

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Can we hear what that

 

      21        amendment is?

 

      22             MS. ELLER:  Mr. Chairman, the amendment

 

      23        would be to remove the WD/WR portion from the

 

      24        proposed transmittal; removing that map, which

 

      25        is a separate map; removing that legal

 

 

 

 

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       1        description so all you have left is the CGC map

 

       2        and the CGC legal that's already attached to the

 

       3        bill.  Additionally, we would place an asterisk

 

       4        on the map, on the CGC portion, to limit it to

 

       5        no residential development.  And that would

 

       6        address the Department of Community Affairs'

 

       7        concerns that they've been raising lately

 

       8        regarding residential in that area.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Harden, are you okay

 

      10        with that amendment as read?

 

      11             MR. HARDEN:  Yes.

 

      12             It will be the same legal description as we

 

      13        provided for the CGC and the same -- there's

 

      14        already a separate map that's part of the

 

      15        Planning Department report, which recommends

 

      16        approval of both the CGC and the water

 

      17        dependent/water related, yes.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  And did I hear you

 

      19        say you're going to add the asterisk for no

 

      20        residential?

 

      21             MS. ELLER:  Yes.

 

      22             MR. HARDEN:  Yeah.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.

 

      24             MR. HARDEN:  That -- otherwise, the

 

      25        Department of Community Affairs is going to find

 

 

 

 

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       1        it inconsistent because it violates the coastal

 

       2        high hazard restrictions.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.

 

       4             MR. HARDEN:  Yes, sir, I'm agreeable to

 

       5        that.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

       7             All right.  We have an amendment -- and a

 

       8        second?

 

       9             MR. JOOST:  Second.

 

      10             Any further discussion on the amendment?

 

      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, all in favor

 

      13        say aye.

 

      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

      16             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved

 

      18        the amendment.

 

      19             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as amended.

 

      20             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      22        seconded as amended.

 

      23             No discussion.  Open the ballot.

 

      24             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      25             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

 

 

 

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                                                           166

 

 

       1             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       3             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       7        the vote.

 

       8             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      10        approved 2008-879 as amended.

 

      11             Okay.  Now, let's go back to the beginning

 

      12        of the agenda.

 

      13             I want to thank you guys all for coming

 

      14        down and for helping us out.

 

      15             Okay.  Committee members, we're at the

 

      16        beginning of the agenda.

 

      17             2005-1228 is deferred.  2006-24 is

 

      18        deferred.  2006-220 is deferred.

 

      19             Top of page 3.  2006-658 is deferred.

 

      20        2007-581 is deferred.

 

      21             2007-1086.  We will open the public

 

      22        hearing.

 

      23             Seeing no speakers, we'll close the public

 

      24        hearing.  And we've got a request from the

 

      25        applicant to hold off because they're not quite

 

 

 

 

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                                                           167

 

 

       1        sure what they want to do with this, so we're

 

       2        going to defer it.

 

       3             Top of page 4.  We have already taken care

 

       4        of the first one.

 

       5             2008-236.  We have a withdrawal.

 

       6             MR. JOOST:  Move to withdraw.

 

       7             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded

 

       9        to withdraw.

 

      10             Any further discussion on the bill?

 

      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      13        ballot.

 

      14             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      15             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      16             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      20             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      22        the vote.

 

      23             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      25        withdrawn 2008-236.

 

 

 

 

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       1             2008-413.  We will open the public

 

       2        hearing.

 

       3             We have Mr. Harden.

 

       4             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)

 

       5             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Chairman, to save you some

 

       6        time, 9 and 11 are land use map amendments that

 

       7        are adjoining each other on Dunn -- or across

 

       8        the street from each other on Dunn Avenue, so

 

       9        I'll kind of go quickly on both of those.

 

      10             These were applications that were filed as

 

      11        small scale applications back -- almost eight

 

      12        months ago.  We went through the entire

 

      13        process.

 

      14             At the time, since it was a small scale, we

 

      15        submitted a PUD on the site, which is number 10

 

      16        and number 12.  There was a full review by the

 

      17        CPAC.  They have approved it, both in the

 

      18        committee Mr. Taylor chairs and then the full

 

      19        CPAC, and it's been vetted through the Planning

 

      20        Commission, actually through several hearings

 

      21        before the full council.

 

      22             So we're now here just to be transmitted on

 

      23        the semiannual for a neighborhood commercial in

 

      24        RPI where there's been a PUD and a site planning

 

      25        process already gone through, so I'd request

 

 

 

 

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       1        your support.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

       3             Seeing no further speakers, we will close

 

       4        that public hearing.

 

       5             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

       6             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

       8        seconded.

 

       9             Any discussion?

 

      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      12        ballot.

 

      13             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      14             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      15             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      16             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      21        the vote.

 

      22             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      24        approved -413.

 

      25             -414 is deferred.

 

 

 

 

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                                                           170

 

 

       1             -415.  We'll open the public hearing.

 

       2             Mr. Harden.

 

       3             MR. HARDEN:  Paul Harden, 501 Riverside

 

       4        Avenue.

 

       5             This is a piece straight across

 

       6        Dunn Avenue -- across Lem Turner, excuse me.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Before I close that public

 

       8        hearing, Mr. Taylor.

 

       9             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  He's no longer here.  I

 

      11        guess he doesn't want to speak.

 

      12             We will close that public hearing.

 

      13             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

      14             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      16        seconded.

 

      17             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      18             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      20        ballot.

 

      21             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      22             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      23             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      24             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      25             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       4        the vote.

 

       5             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       7        approved -415.

 

       8             -416 is deferred.

 

       9             Top of page 6.  -417.  We will open the

 

      10        public hearing.

 

      11             Jason, come on down.

 

      12             (Mr. Gabriel approaches the podium.)

 

      13             MR. GABRIEL:  Good evening.

 

      14             Jason Gabriel, 6 East Bay Street,

 

      15        Suite 500, Jacksonville, Florida, here on behalf

 

      16        of the applicant and just available for any

 

      17        questions.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're a good man.

 

      19             Seeing no further speakers, we'll close the

 

      20        public hearing.

 

      21             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

      22             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and

 

      24        seconded --

 

      25             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, excuse me.

 

 

 

 

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                                                           172

 

 

       1             I believe there's an asterisk with this, so

 

       2        that would be an amendment.

 

       3             MR. KELLY:  (Inaudible.)

 

       4             MR. CROFTS:  Pardon me?

 

       5             MR. KELLY:  (Inaudible.)

 

       6             MR. CROFTS:  Oh, it is already on the map.

 

       7        Excuse me.

 

       8             So that's -- therefore, there will not be

 

       9        an amendment and disregard my comment even

 

      10        though there is an asterisk.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further

 

      12        discussion, please open the ballot.

 

      13             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      14             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      15             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      16             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      21        the vote.

 

      22             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      24        approved -417.

 

      25             MR. GABRIEL:  Thank you.

 

 

 

 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  And, Mr. Crofts, thank you

 

       2        for stopping us before we made the mistake.

 

       3             -418 is deferred.

 

       4             -517.  We'll open that public hearing.

 

       5             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that

 

       6        public hearing and no take no further action.

 

       7             -541 is deferred.  -542 is deferred.

 

       8             -545.  We will open the public hearing.

 

       9             Hilton Meadows, come on down.

 

      10             (Mr. Meadows approaches the podium.)

 

      11             MR. MEADOWS:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      12             What's the prize for coming on down?

 

      13             We are here representing -- my name is

 

      14        Hilton T. Meadows.  My address, 6837 Merrill

 

      15        Road, Jacksonville, Florida.

 

      16             We're in the land planning and land --

 

      17        architectural business, representing Mr. George

 

      18        Safar, who has the property listed over on

 

      19        Willow Branch, and this property is now

 

      20        contiguous to I-10 West.

 

      21             There's a strange traffic pattern by the

 

      22        property in that the street that borders the

 

      23        front of the property is one way west, and we

 

      24        are contiguous to an existing church on the west

 

      25        side of where we are.  And then on the north

 

 

 

 

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       1        side of where we are, there are two or three

 

       2        residential properties which have been occupied

 

       3        for a good long time.

 

       4             We are perfectly comfortable with having

 

       5        this go forward subject to our having an

 

       6        opportunity to review some of the conditions, if

 

       7        there are any conditions the Planning Department

 

       8        has placed on it.

 

       9             We didn't get notice on this until this

 

      10        afternoon at 15 minutes till 5 o'clock, so

 

      11        that's how -- how much time we've had to take a

 

      12        look at this, and no time to look at the

 

      13        conditions the Planning Department may have put

 

      14        on this activity.

 

      15             Mr. Crofts may have conditions or

 

      16        Mr. Kelly.

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I have a question.

 

      18        Why were you just noticed earlier today?  Did

 

      19        you not know that --

 

      20             MR. MEADOWS:  I don't have a clue because

 

      21        my son's name and my name are both listed on

 

      22        this as being the representatives, but we got no

 

      23        notice.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  What is the notice process

 

      25        for these things?  Do you fill out the

 

 

 

 

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                                                           175

 

 

       1        application and the dates are given to the

 

       2        applicant?

 

       3             MR. KELLY:  (Nods head.)

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  So, sir, did you not fill

 

       5        out the application?  Did you not get the

 

       6        dates?

 

       7             MR. MEADOWS:  I beg your pardon?

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  When you filled out the

 

       9        application, did you get the dates that we were

 

      10        going to be meeting on this?

 

      11             MR. MEADOWS:  No, because this -- we didn't

 

      12        file the initial application.  It was filed by

 

      13        someone else, and then we came into the picture

 

      14        because there was some discussion about whether

 

      15        or not we even needed a land use change.  And it

 

      16        runs to what had been commented earlier,

 

      17        Mr. Chairman, in this meeting, and that is we

 

      18        are LDR now.  And, as I think Mr. Kelly was

 

      19        reported to have said, a secondary use is PUD.

 

      20             So initially we had thought that since we

 

      21        are LDR and since we're looking for a PUD that

 

      22        we could -- we could handle it in that manner,

 

      23        but it didn't work that way.  So there's been a

 

      24        good bit of discussion, and I would have to

 

      25        admit some confusion about how this process

 

 

 

 

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                                                           176

 

 

       1        should be handled.

 

       2             Now, we've worked with Councilman Jones.

 

       3        I've had one meeting with him and a couple of

 

       4        other discussions with him regarding this

 

       5        matter, and I don't find that Mr. Jones has any

 

       6        opposition to our doing the land use change that

 

       7        we're requesting, business park.

 

       8             As a matter of fact, one of the staff

 

       9        people with the Planning Department apparently

 

      10        recommended the BP land use change when my

 

      11        client's first representative approached.  And

 

      12        then, of course, as we continued to work with

 

      13        it, it became obviously more sensible to seek a

 

      14        PUD rezoning in connection with the BP land use

 

      15        change.

 

      16             And we're comfortable with that and we're

 

      17        comfortable with the notion of complying with

 

      18        the codes of the City of Jacksonville with

 

      19        regard to the land use change and with regard to

 

      20        the rezoning utilization of the property.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, let's close the public

 

      22        hearing and see what the Planning Department has

 

      23        to say.

 

      24             MR. MEADOWS:  Certainly.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  The public hearing is

 

 

 

 

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                                                           177

 

 

       1        closed.

 

       2             Mr. Crofts.

 

       3             MR. CROFTS:  I will say the following,

 

       4        that -- for Mr. Meadows' benefit, that item 18,

 

       5        2008-545, is a semiannual land use that we're

 

       6        transmitting tonight, along with the other fall

 

       7        series of amendments, which will go with that

 

       8        overall package to Tallahassee for comment,

 

       9        review, come back in 60 to 90 days, and it will

 

      10        be coming back before this body for adoption.

 

      11             Subsequent to that, also, item 19,

 

      12        2008-546, is the rezoning.

 

      13             There are no conditions, first of all, on

 

      14        2008-545 because it's strictly a transmittal, to

 

      15        answer his question about conditions.

 

      16             The next item, item 19, 2008-546, is the

 

      17        rezoning that will be companion to this.  That

 

      18        will be taken up complementary or subsequent or

 

      19        along with the rezoning when it comes -- or with

 

      20        the land use when it comes back from the State.

 

      21             Right now that particular land -- rezoning

 

      22        is RLD-G to IBP.  If there are conditions or if

 

      23        there's a suggestion if it's PUD, that bill will

 

      24        have -- this existing bill will have to be

 

      25        substituted.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           178

 

 

       1             So there are a couple of things.  I hope

 

       2        that clarifies the situation.

 

       3             Unfortunately, I can't tell you other

 

       4        than -- why you didn't get notice for tonight's

 

       5        meeting other than the fact that you said that

 

       6        you were the new representative and we may have

 

       7        misdirected the notification to you originally.

 

       8             And I did think it was a little peculiar

 

       9        when this thing came up before the Planning

 

      10        Commission, incidentally, when you weren't here

 

      11        or your associate was not here, so I'm glad that

 

      12        we did get in touch with you.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  So --

 

      14             MR. MEADOWS:  May I --

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  The public hearing is closed

 

      16        and he's not adding anything to it, so --

 

      17             MR. MEADOWS:  Mr. Chairman, he added one

 

      18        thing to it.  I'm sorry.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  All we're doing is just

 

      20        moving the bill as written.

 

      21             MR. MEADOWS:  The part that he added to it

 

      22        had to do with IBP as opposed to PUD, and we

 

      23        have filed for a PUD rezoning.  I just want that

 

      24        to be clear in the record.

 

      25             MR. CROFTS:  I can't comment if we have it

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           179

 

 

       1        or not, but it officially has not been

 

       2        substituted before this body, and we will look

 

       3        for it and get back with you and contact you.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Did we get a motion?

 

       5             MR. KELLY:  Through the Chair, I just have

 

       6        a question for the applicant.

 

       7             Are there two pending zoning applications

 

       8        on the same land use?

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Wait.  Wait.  Wait.

 

      10             Let's just do it this way:  Let's put this

 

      11        on the table.  You guys go back in the

 

      12        Green Room and work it out.

 

      13             We'll lay this on the table, -545.

 

      14             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  No.  We're laying it on the

 

      16        table.

 

      17             MR. JOOST:  Lay it on the table.

 

      18             MR. KELLY:  Move the land use.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  I think I just want you guys

 

      20        to figure it out.

 

      21             Sir, if you go back that way to the

 

      22        Green Room, they'll help you work this out.

 

      23             MR. MEADOWS:  Certainly.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

      25             Okay.  Go on.  -546 is deferred.  -549 is

 

 

 

 

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       1        deferred.  -550 is deferred.

 

       2             -551.  We will open the public hearing.

 

       3             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)

 

       4             MR. HARDEN:  Paul Harden, 501 Riverside

 

       5        Avenue.

 

       6             This is an application which was originally

 

       7        filed as a small scale application.  It was

 

       8        filed again almost eight months ago.  At the

 

       9        same time, a companion PUD was filed, which is

 

      10        number 23 on your agenda.

 

      11             Because of a change in position of the

 

      12        Department of Community Affairs, the matter had

 

      13        to be switched to a semiannual amendment, so

 

      14        we're now here on a semiannual review.  This is

 

      15        simply a transmittal to Tallahassee of that

 

      16        semiannual request.

 

      17             This application was heard by the Northside

 

      18        CPAC.  They approved both the land use map

 

      19        amendment, when it was a small scale, and the

 

      20        PUD, which is a companion to it, which won't be

 

      21        heard till it comes back.

 

      22             There have been about six public hearings.

 

      23        There has been no one speak in opposition.

 

      24             I have not heard a request for deferral

 

      25        other than a rumor that was going in the

 

 

 

 

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       1        audience.

 

       2             Ms. Lee asked for a deferral in the full

 

       3        council four weeks ago for two weeks, which

 

       4        Councilman Fussell gave her.  The next day, I

 

       5        wrote -- saying she wanted to find out some

 

       6        information.

 

       7             The next day, I wrote her a letter

 

       8        explaining the PUD, offering to meet with her

 

       9        any day of the week, anytime the week of October

 

      10        27th or this week.  I haven't heard anything

 

      11        back or any input.

 

      12             The matter will be back in six months.  The

 

      13        PUD has been sitting there for eight months.  It

 

      14        will sit there for another six months.

 

      15             Mr. Taylor is here on behalf of the

 

      16        Northside CPAC, who is in support of it.  We

 

      17        would request that you allow us to transmit this

 

      18        application.

 

      19             If the district councilperson has any

 

      20        questions, again, I'll write her tomorrow and

 

      21        volunteer to meet with her anytime that she

 

      22        would like to discuss it as well.

 

      23             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      25             Mr. Taylor.

 

 

 

 

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       1             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

       2             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Bobby Taylor, 9441

 

       3        Heckscher Drive, 32226.

 

       4             I'm the vice chair of the CPAC.

 

       5             I just want to confirm what Mr. Harden

 

       6        said.  We did hear this -- I did send a letter

 

       7        to y'all when I was new on LUZ at the time, and

 

       8        we used application number 2007-C69.  If you --

 

       9        you can look in your records and research and

 

      10        see if that record is on file.  If not, Mr. Holt

 

      11        knows how to get ahold of me.  Mr. Harden knows

 

      12        how to get ahold of me.  I'll do an updated

 

      13        letter with the bill number on it, but we do

 

      14        want to see the PUD when it comes back, but we

 

      15        are in support of the application to send it up

 

      16        for the semiannual.  He did go through the

 

      17        process and come see us, I believe, February or

 

      18        March of this year.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      20             Seeing no further speakers, we'll close the

 

      21        public hearing.  And I was asked by the district

 

      22        councilperson to defer this bill, so I'll --

 

      23        unless somebody wants to overrule, we're going

 

      24        to defer this.

 

      25             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  2008-552 is

 

       2        deferred.

 

       3             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Chairman, you're deferring

 

       4        this for six months tonight?

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm deferring this until it

 

       6        comes back before us, so --

 

       7             MR. HARDEN:  If you defer it tonight, it's

 

       8        deferred for six months, until the spring

 

       9        series.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Unless we discharge it at

 

      11        LUZ -- I mean, unless we discharge it Tuesday

 

      12        night.

 

      13             MR. HARDEN:  Which will require 13 votes.

 

      14             Is there a reason for the deferral?

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  The district councilperson

 

      16        said that she needed time to deal with this and

 

      17        that she was dealing with a sick mom and she

 

      18        said that she'd try to work out the three bills

 

      19        that she asked me to defer between now and

 

      20        Tuesday night.

 

      21             MR. HARDEN:  Is there some reason you can't

 

      22        vote it out and have it -- have those questions

 

      23        answered between now and then?

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I'll just tell you

 

      25        what -- the conversation I had with her was I

 

 

 

 

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       1        will open and close the public hearing and I'll

 

       2        defer the bill, and we'll just see what happens

 

       3        Tuesday night -- Monday night.

 

       4             MR. HARDEN:  Okay.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  -552 is deferred.

 

       6             -562.  We'll open the public hearing.

 

       7             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that

 

       8        public hearing and take no further action.

 

       9             -565.  Did we defer this?  We're taking

 

      10        action on this, right?

 

      11             MR. KELLY:  No.

 

      12             Through the Chair, Councilman Webb, again,

 

      13        because the applicant and the opposition is not

 

      14        here for this item, that -- he said he would

 

      15        defer it one more week -- or one more cycle,

 

      16        and --

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  We've been one moreing

 

      18        this -- it's just like Stephen Joost's one more

 

      19        question.

 

      20             All right.  Well, do we open and continue

 

      21        the public hearing?

 

      22             MS. ELLER:  Yes.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  We'll open that public

 

      24        hearing.

 

      25             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that

 

 

 

 

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       1        public hearing and take no further action.

 

       2             -567.  We will open that public hearing.

 

       3             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public

 

       4        hearing.

 

       5             MR. JOOST:  Move the amendment.

 

       6             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment's been moved

 

       8        and seconded.

 

       9             Any discussion on the amendment?

 

      10             Let's hear it.

 

      11             MR. CROFTS:  The amendment is as follows:

 

      12             Condition number 1, "The development shall

 

      13        be subject to the original legal description

 

      14        dated April 25th, 2008."

 

      15             Condition number 2, "The development shall

 

      16        be subject to the revised written description

 

      17        dated September 26th, 2008."

 

      18             Number 3, "The development shall be subject

 

      19        to the revised site plan dated September 26th,

 

      20        2008."

 

      21             Number 4 and finally, "The development

 

      22        shall be subject to the review and approval of

 

      23        the Development Services memorandum dated

 

      24        October 7th, 2008, or as otherwise approved by

 

      25        the Planning and Development Department."

 

 

 

 

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       1             Thank you.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

       3             Is the applicant here?

 

       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Indicating.)

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, are you okay with all

 

       6        those things?

 

       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let the record show that the

 

       9        applicant is okay with that.

 

      10             Okay.  Any discussion on the amendment?

 

      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, all in favor

 

      13        say aye.

 

      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

      16             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved

 

      18        the amendment.

 

      19             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as amended.

 

      20             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      22        seconded as amended.

 

      23             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      24             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

 

 

 

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       1        ballot.

 

       2             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       3             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       6             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       7             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       8             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      10        the vote.

 

      11             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      13        approved -567 as amended.

 

      14             Top of page 10.  -716.  Same situation

 

      15        here.  We will open that public hearing.

 

      16             Seeing no speakers -- we were asked for a

 

      17        deferral by that district councilperson, so

 

      18        we'll continue that public hearing and take no

 

      19        further action.

 

      20             -784.  We'll open that public hearing.

 

      21             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that

 

      22        public hearing and take no further action.

 

      23             -799.  We'll open that public hearing.

 

      24             Brenda Ellis.

 

      25             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Your name and address for

 

       2        the record.  You have three minutes.

 

       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Brenda Ellis.  I reside

 

       4        at 9820 Ribault Avenue.

 

       5             I'm here on behalf of my family and the

 

       6        neighbors in our area, who -- we strongly oppose

 

       7        the rezoning of the 2008-799 property.  The

 

       8        property has been vacant since 1930, and the

 

       9        late -- 2006, they put that house on there and

 

      10        rezoned it for commercial property -- for a

 

      11        residential dwelling -- single dwelling.

 

      12             Our community has changed.  We have

 

      13        revitalized, and to -- actually, to have that

 

      14        commercial -- that property be rezoned back to

 

      15        commercial property would -- will stifen [sic]

 

      16        the progress that we've made today in our

 

      17        community, so we asking for your support to

 

      18        oppose it.

 

      19             Our current traffic condition -- even by

 

      20        rezoning this, it is going to magnify our

 

      21        dangerous traffic condition, whereas we having

 

      22        trouble assessing [sic] the road from our

 

      23        property.

 

      24             I took pictures to show you exactly where

 

      25        the property is located.  It's located on the

 

 

 

 

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                                                           189

 

 

       1        corner of Ribault Avenue and Trout River

 

       2        Boulevard, and a lot of people use this as

 

       3        assess [sic] to get to Lem Turner.

 

       4             By rezoning the property, it's going to

 

       5        depreciate the value in our homes

 

       6        significantly.  It will open the doors for

 

       7        unwanted criminals.  Even though the applicant

 

       8        did present and said that she would -- I guess,

 

       9        according to the health act, they cannot hire or

 

      10        house criminals or sexual predators.  And we're

 

      11        very concerned because if you go on the Internet

 

      12        now and pull up sexual predators in our area, we

 

      13        have currently 28 residing within a one-mile

 

      14        radius.

 

      15             We strongly ask for your support.  I have

 

      16        petitions.  The original was accepted by the

 

      17        Planning, but I did go back and get more

 

      18        applicants -- more residents in the neighborhood

 

      19        who strongly oppose what the applicant is trying

 

      20        to do.

 

      21             She stated that this will help disabled

 

      22        veterans and seniors in our neighborhood.  Half

 

      23        of them in our neighborhood reside -- half of

 

      24        those people who she's saying she's going to

 

      25        service reside in our neighborhood, and they

 

 

 

 

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       1        strongly oppose.  They signed a petition.

 

       2        Unfortunately, they're not able to be here due

 

       3        to their health.

 

       4             But if you vote to rezone this, you'll be

 

       5        doing a disservice to our neighborhood.  You'd

 

       6        be taking away our vision, our dreams to raise

 

       7        our family and our children.

 

       8             Our City Councilperson, we've asked for her

 

       9        support.  She have not returned not any of our

 

      10        calls.  And we found out that she support the

 

      11        applicant strongly, and we just want her to hear

 

      12        our views.

 

      13             So we're asking for your support, please.

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.  Hold on

 

      15        for a question.

 

      16             Dr. Gaffney.

 

      17             MR. GAFFNEY:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 

      18             Yes.  Ms. Ellis, I think you answered my

 

      19        question.  I was just a little curious, have you

 

      20        had an opportunity to get with the district

 

      21        councilperson?  Have you had any type of

 

      22        community meetings out there to see how the

 

      23        people really feel about the area?

 

      24             MS. ELLIS:  Yes.  I had an opportunity -- I

 

      25        had been talking to one of the CPAC leaders, and

 

 

 

 

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                                                           191

 

 

       1        she suggested that I go to Timber Oaks.  They

 

       2        had a little gathering for Halloween, and that's

 

       3        where 54 of my signatures came from.

 

       4             We have -- we've called our City

 

       5        Councilperson on numerous occasions, even

 

       6        invited her to come back in our community, as

 

       7        she once did when she asked for our support, to

 

       8        kind of hear our concerns because quite a few of

 

       9        the residents are 60 and older or are sick and

 

      10        they cannot be present.  That's why they are

 

      11        signing the petition asking for the support.

 

      12             She have not returned any of our calls, no.

 

      13             DR. GAFFNEY:  Now, one quick question.

 

      14             Now, I think I'm somewhat familiar with

 

      15        this area.  Is this the area right there where

 

      16        there's a -- there has been an abundance of

 

      17        fatal accidents?

 

      18             MS. ELLIS:  Yes.  Recently -- I think it

 

      19        was on October the 16th.  Right on Trout River

 

      20        Boulevard, we had a death to occur there.

 

      21             The traffic -- I tried to show you with

 

      22        pictures.  There's ongoing traffic at all times,

 

      23        directly at that corner where people are trying

 

      24        to exit to Trout River Boulevard, where the

 

      25        property actually reside.  My property is

 

 

 

 

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       1        directly across the street.

 

       2             DR. GAFFNEY:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.

 

       4             MS. ELLIS:  Thank you.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further speakers,

 

       6        we'll continue that public hearing and take no

 

       7        further action.

 

       8             Ma'am, do you want your pictures back?

 

       9             MR. REDMAN:  May I ask her one question?

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman.

 

      11             MR. REDMAN:  What does the applicant

 

      12        propose to put there?

 

      13             MS. ELLIS:  Well, what she's trying to do

 

      14        is an adult living facility, and a lot of the

 

      15        CPAC leaders is even opposing it because they

 

      16        say it's just another sophisticated way of

 

      17        opening boarding homes in the community.

 

      18             It's a little -- I think it's 1,534 in

 

      19        square foot.  She's trying to house ten adults

 

      20        out of there.  And I don't know how many she's

 

      21        going to actually employ, but the intensity

 

      22        in which she's trying to operate -- it's just

 

      23        not -- it's not appropriate for our

 

      24        neighborhood.

 

      25             Our neighborhood has grown significantly.

 

 

 

 

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       1        We have new homes, lots of new homes, a whole

 

       2        new subdivision.  We have value coming into our

 

       3        neighborhood.  We have families.  We have

 

       4        children coming into our neighborhood.  And that

 

       5        is just not appropriate, what she's trying to do

 

       6        in our neighborhood, directly in our

 

       7        neighborhood where we reside.

 

       8             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Dr. Gaffney.

 

      10             Ma'am, hold on.  They're not done with you

 

      11        yet.

 

      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 

      13             Just one question here.

 

      14             I believe those homes over there -- there's

 

      15        a mixture, but lately, the last few years,

 

      16        there's been an abundance of brand-new homes?

 

      17             MS. ELLIS:  Yes, a whole new subdivision.

 

      18        Fifty-four of the signatures -- like I said,

 

      19        they had a gathering.

 

      20             Throughout the neighborhood homes is just

 

      21        constantly coming up.  We just recently --

 

      22        within the last two years, someone tore down a

 

      23        house and rebuilt a $750,000 house right on

 

      24        Soutel -- right on Trout River Boulevard.

 

      25             We -- the neighborhood is an old

 

 

 

 

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       1        neighborhood, but my property is less than ten

 

       2        years old.  And, like I said, we just been

 

       3        revitalizing.  It's just --

 

       4             DR. GAFFNEY:  Okay.  So what you're saying,

 

       5        this is -- because there are other homes around

 

       6        there about 6- or 7,000 square feet, so you're

 

       7        saying this is really not compatible?

 

       8             MS. ELLIS:  That's correct, and it's not

 

       9        appropriate, you know, for what she's trying to

 

      10        do in the neighborhood.

 

      11             The Planning, to me, they pretty much

 

      12        saying, okay, it was deemed commercial property,

 

      13        heavy usage at one time, but they not taking in

 

      14        consideration -- this property has been vacant

 

      15        since 1930, until they brought this refurbished

 

      16        house and put it there, and that's when the

 

      17        applicant purchased it and she want to rezone

 

      18        it.  Never stayed in our community.  She even

 

      19        state this is good for the community.  She don't

 

      20        know anything about our community.  She have not

 

      21        been forthcoming with her information.  We just

 

      22        saw a rezoning sign pop up.

 

      23             And, like I said, to no avail.  We can't

 

      24        even get a City Councilperson to come and hear

 

      25        our concerns.  We were told that she strongly

 

 

 

 

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       1        support the applicant, and we want to know why,

 

       2        why she won't hear our concern.

 

       3             DR. GAFFNEY:  Thank you.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ma'am, hold on.

 

       5             Mr. Joost.

 

       6             MR. JOOST:  Well, ma'am -- thank you,

 

       7        Mr. Chair.

 

       8             Ma'am, I hear your concerns loud and clear,

 

       9        and thank you for coming down.  I'm just

 

      10        curious, how many times did you try to contact

 

      11        your councilperson?

 

      12             MS. ELLIS:  Five.  I've even had neighbors

 

      13        in the neighborhood to call also, and no

 

      14        response.  We've even asked her secretary,

 

      15        Tiffany, to see if Ms. Lee would come in our

 

      16        neighborhood and have a meeting with us because

 

      17        a lot of the residents -- the older residents

 

      18        that reside there are up in age, 85 and older,

 

      19        or health problems, and we asking her to come to

 

      20        the neighborhood church where she once came to

 

      21        solicit our vote to kind of hear our concerns,

 

      22        and to no avail.

 

      23             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Mr. Chair, the next

 

      24        public hearing will be when?

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Two weeks.

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. JOOST:  So we'll have another public

 

       2        hearing in two weeks, and I hope you will attend

 

       3        in two weeks, and hopefully we can get the

 

       4        district councilperson involved at that time and

 

       5        work this out.

 

       6             Thank you.

 

       7             MS. ELLIS:  Thank you.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.

 

       9             MS. ELLIS:  Thank you.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further speakers,

 

      11        we'll continue that public hearing and take no

 

      12        further action.

 

      13             -801.  We will open the public hearing.

 

      14             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public

 

      15        hearing.

 

      16             We've got a motion to withdraw.

 

      17             MR. JOOST:  Move to withdraw.

 

      18             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded

 

      20        to withdraw.

 

      21             Any discussion on the withdrawal?

 

      22             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      24        ballot.

 

      25             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       3             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       6             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       8        the vote.

 

       9             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      11        withdrawn -801.

 

      12             Mr. Kelly, what was that one that we put on

 

      13        the table?

 

      14             MR. KELLY:  It's -545.  Mr. Meadows.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  -545.  Page 7.

 

      16             Okay.  We will take that off -- can I get a

 

      17        motion to take it off the table?

 

      18             MR. JOOST:  I move to take it off the

 

      19        table.

 

      20             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Moved and seconded.  All in

 

      22        favor.

 

      23             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

      25             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've taken

 

       2        it off the table.

 

       3             Sir, did you get your questions answered?

 

       4             MR. MEADOWS:  Well, in part I think I did,

 

       5        but I want to call to your attention -- if you

 

       6        have the write-up which was published, the

 

       7        notice of public meetings and hearings, a copy

 

       8        of which did go to my client.

 

       9             If you take notice at the bottom of it,

 

      10        it's consistent with what I was saying to you

 

      11        when I spoke to the issue having to do with IBP

 

      12        or PUD.

 

      13             Someone in the Planning Department does

 

      14        know for a fact -- apparently they do because

 

      15        they've written on here that we are asking to

 

      16        be changed when it comes to the zoning,

 

      17        Mr. Chairman.  We are asking for a change from

 

      18        RLD-G to PUD.

 

      19             We still want to pursue that, but I

 

      20        understand that -- in the interest of getting

 

      21        the application -- the small amendment -- the

 

      22        land use amendment moved forward to DCA, yes,

 

      23        we're fine with that.  We'd like to have that go

 

      24        forward and would appreciate your vote in favor

 

      25        of doing that.

 

 

 

 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  The answer to the question

 

       2        was yes?

 

       3             MR. MEADOWS:  Yes.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

       5             MR. MEADOWS:  Thank you.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We're back on the

 

       7        table.

 

       8             MR. JOOST:  Move -545.

 

       9             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and

 

      11        seconded.

 

      12             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      13             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      15        ballot.

 

      16             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      17             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      20             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      21             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      22             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      24        the vote.

 

      25             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

 

 

 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       2        approved -545.

 

       3             Top of page 11.  -833.  We will open the

 

       4        public hearing.

 

       5             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public

 

       6        hearing.

 

       7             We've got an amendment.

 

       8             MR. JOOST:  Move the amendment.

 

       9             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment's been moved.

 

      11             Can we hear the amendment -- moved and

 

      12        seconded.

 

      13             MS. ELLER:  Mr. Chairman, the amendment

 

      14        consists of four things:

 

      15             First, to include that -- when we're

 

      16        discussing the perimeter landscape buffer, that

 

      17        it's an average 10-foot buffer instead of just a

 

      18        10-foot buffer, to permit the ability for that,

 

      19        to have a little bit of wiggle room.

 

      20             The next is that, when we're talking about

 

      21        drought and heat-resistant landscape materials,

 

      22        we're actually talking about drought-tolerant

 

      23        and heat-resistant.  That's just a technical

 

      24        correction.

 

      25             The third item is a caveat whereby planned

 

 

 

 

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       1        unit developments approved and effective prior

 

       2        to the effective date of this ordinance would

 

       3        not be subject to this.  That was per the e-mail

 

       4        dated November 3rd.

 

       5             And then the fourth item would be as

 

       6        suggested by the Planning Department to include

 

       7        a sentence that says, "These restrictions apply

 

       8        except when the other provisions of the zoning

 

       9        code are more restrictive," and that way we

 

      10        wouldn't be undoing anything in our zoning code

 

      11        by this bill that already has more restrictive

 

      12        restrictions in place, to be redundant.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Planning Department,

 

      14        you guys are fine with all that?

 

      15             MR. KELLY:  (Indicating.)

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thumbs up, let the record

 

      17        show.

 

      18             Okay.  It's been moved and seconded.  Any

 

      19        discussion on the amendment?

 

      20             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, all in favor

 

      22        say aye.

 

      23             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

      25             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved

 

       2        the amendment.

 

       3             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as amended.

 

       4             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

       6        seconded as amended.

 

       7             Any discussion on the bill?

 

       8             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      10        ballot.

 

      11             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      12             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      13             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      14             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      15             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      16             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      19        the vote.

 

      20             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      22        approved -833.

 

      23             I want to thank you guys.  That's something

 

      24        that's been floating around since Warren Alvarez

 

      25        was on the council, and you finally got it

 

 

 

 

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       1        done.  I've been nagged for a long time about

 

       2        that bill.

 

       3             -840.  Open the public hearing.

 

       4             No speakers.  We'll close that public

 

       5        hearing.

 

       6             MR. HOLT:  Move the sub.

 

       7             MR. JOOST:  Second.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  The sub's been moved and

 

       9        seconded.

 

      10             Any discussion on the sub?

 

      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, all in favor

 

      13        say aye.

 

      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

      16             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved

 

      18        the sub.

 

      19             MR. HOLT:  Move to rerefer.

 

      20             MR. JOOST:  Second.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded

 

      22        to rerefer as substituted.

 

      23             Any discussion on the rereferral?

 

      24             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

 

 

 

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       1        ballot.

 

       2             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       3             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       6             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       7             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       8             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      10        the vote.

 

      11             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      13        rereferred -840 as substituted.

 

      14             -841.  We'll open the public hearing.

 

      15             No speakers.  Close the public hearing.

 

      16             MR. JOOST:  Move to withdraw.

 

      17             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded

 

      19        to withdraw.

 

      20             MR. KELLY:  To the Chair, with fees.  This

 

      21        was actually determined to be a lot of record,

 

      22        so they didn't need the application.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let the record show it's

 

      24        withdrawn with fees by the request of the

 

      25        Planning Department.

 

 

 

 

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       1             Seeing no further questions, please open

 

       2        the ballot.

 

       3             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       4             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       6             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       7             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       8             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       9             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      11        the vote.

 

      12             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      14        withdrawn -841.

 

      15             -842.  We will open the public hearing.

 

      16        We have Mark Dougherty.

 

      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Owner and applicant, sir.

 

      19             Mark Dougherty, 10149 Earl Road, 32246.

 

      20             Only here in case there are any questions.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.  We

 

      22        appreciate it.

 

      23             Any questions for the applicant?

 

      24             Mr. Joost.

 

      25             MR. JOOST:  Just real quick.

 

 

 

 

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       1             Why are we reducing the requirement from

 

       2        ninety-six to zero?

 

       3             MR. DOUGHERTY:  It is a mathematical

 

       4        requirement by zoning.  This is a lot of record,

 

       5        which is an unapproved, unCity-maintained [sic]

 

       6        road.  It is approximately 1.15 acres.  And,

 

       7        unfortunately, there is no City water or sewer.

 

       8             It is zoned RLD-G, which states that there

 

       9        could be up to approximately seven homes on it

 

      10        if there were City water and sewer.  That not

 

      11        being the case, it is to [sic] half acre lot for

 

      12        a house and a septic system, and I would like to

 

      13        put a second dwelling on there so that I may, in

 

      14        some case, probably give the other one to my

 

      15        children through bloodline or whatever, but just

 

      16        second dwelling [sic].

 

      17             And this is, again, the mathematical

 

      18        equation to allow -- there is 150 feet of road

 

      19        front on the acre, but to satisfy the

 

      20        requirements of the unimproved City road.

 

      21             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Thank you.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      23             There is an amendment.  The amendment is

 

      24        either to grant or deny the waiver.

 

      25             Let's hear from the Planning Department.

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.

 

       2             Through the Chair, members of council,

 

       3        ordinance 2008-842 seeks a reduction in the

 

       4        required road frontage for RLD-G from

 

       5        ninety-six feet to zero feet to allow for two

 

       6        dwellings.

 

       7             This is located at Earl Road.  Again, it's

 

       8        in City right-of-way, but not improved at all to

 

       9        any kind of City standard and, therefore,

 

      10        doesn't qualify.

 

      11             There are three conditions of approval.

 

      12        The staff is recommending to go along with this,

 

      13        and I can read those into the record or --

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.

 

      15             MR. KELLY:  Condition 1, "That the address

 

      16        shall be clearly marked at the terminus of the

 

      17        Earl Road right-of-way."

 

      18             Condition 2, "The applicant shall install

 

      19        and maintain a minimum 20-foot-wide, stabilized

 

      20        travel surface consisting of either coquina or

 

      21        gravel material at the terminus of the Earl Road

 

      22        right-of-way up to the building restriction line

 

      23        of the new dwelling with roadside swales that

 

      24        provide for positive drainage."

 

      25             Condition 3, "That the subject property

 

 

 

 

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       1        shall not be further subdivided unless the

 

       2        extension of Earl Road is brought into

 

       3        compliance with the City's Land Development

 

       4        Procedures Manual."

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Dougherty, are you okay

 

       6        with those three conditions?

 

       7             MR. DOUGHERTY:  I am okay with those

 

       8        conditions.

 

       9             The road is already coquina in most cases.

 

      10        It is already a 60-foot right-of-way in between

 

      11        the two properties.  It dead ends on the back

 

      12        end of the properties on Anniston, and I see no

 

      13        reason why it would ever be further developed.

 

      14             I am hesitant to accept the limit of never

 

      15        further subdividing because, as I said, this is

 

      16        a complete 1.15 acre.  It is 150 feet across the

 

      17        front, 300-and-some-odd feet down the side.  It

 

      18        is, in essence, surrounded by about 50 acres of

 

      19        woodlands.  The back end of the properties

 

      20        coming off of Anniston, undeveloped lots on

 

      21        Fraser on the north, an acre of basically

 

      22        cypress on the east.  And, at some point, I

 

      23        would like to split it down the middle, creating

 

      24        two half-acre lots.  One, currently, the

 

      25        residence on the property has a septic system of

 

 

 

 

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                                                           209

 

 

       1        its own, which is supporting of that 15-,

 

       2        1,600-square-foot dwelling.  The house that I'm

 

       3        intending to build is on the east side, and the

 

       4        septic system to handle that house is already in

 

       5        place.

 

       6             It is by the Homestead Act an exemption

 

       7        that I'm required to dwell in this house for

 

       8        approximately one year.  I am serving as

 

       9        owner/contractor, and I'm not allowed to sell it

 

      10        during that time.

 

      11             At the end of that one year of my residence

 

      12        in that house, I would like to be able to

 

      13        consider splitting it at that time, again, to

 

      14        either deed or sell or give half acre and house

 

      15        to family member or, at that point, sell, do

 

      16        whatever.

 

      17             So that third restriction I am in question

 

      18        of.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Planning Department, do you

 

      20        still want to stick with that third one or

 

      21        what's your --

 

      22             MR. KELLY:  Yes.  And the condition is only

 

      23        binding for the sake of this dwelling unit

 

      24        because the waiver only applies to this lot.

 

      25             If he wants to further subdivide, he's got

 

 

 

 

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       1        to come back and apply for another waiver to

 

       2        begin with, so . . .

 

       3             The whole intent is to not circumvent the

 

       4        intent of the subdivision regulations and

 

       5        require paving streets, curb and gutter when you

 

       6        do subdivide.

 

       7             He's splitting the lot right now.  Adding a

 

       8        third lot is a subdivision, triggering the

 

       9        requirement for it to be brought into City

 

      10        standards.  So it's --

 

      11             MR. DOUGHERTY:  Clarification.  I would

 

      12        never split it into thirds.  It would splitting

 

      13        it down the middle into halves.

 

      14             And also on the original application with

 

      15        Zoning, we went through some of this, and this

 

      16        request for this waiver was against 10149, which

 

      17        is the existing house, and 10149-1, which is the

 

      18        address Zoning gave me for the new house that I

 

      19        would like to put on here.  So it is two

 

      20        separate addresses, two separate lots, never to

 

      21        be divided any farther into a subdivision.

 

      22             Again, if there were City water and

 

      23        sewer -- which no one has ever given me the

 

      24        ability to find out whether that would go in --

 

      25        by right I have the ability to put seven or

 

 

 

 

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       1        eight houses in there.  I am staying away from

 

       2        that completely to comply with the present

 

       3        Health Department regulations and Florida state

 

       4        stipulations on half acre per septic.

 

       5             So the -- the concept of a third lot in

 

       6        there and subdivision, I'm not understanding

 

       7        where Zoning and Planning is getting that.

 

       8             I --

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Kelly.

 

      10             MR. DOUGHERTY:  -- want two houses on --

 

      11             MR. KELLY:  That's exactly -- I mean,

 

      12        understand -- that's the whole reason for the

 

      13        application, is 96 instead of 48.  You're asking

 

      14        for two dwellings on this property, to split

 

      15        this property potentially at some time.  Going

 

      16        beyond the two that you're asking for we have an

 

      17        issue with.

 

      18             MR. DOUGHERTY:  Understood and would never

 

      19        want to do that.  It's surrounded by almost

 

      20        50 acres of woods and it's a beautiful spot in

 

      21        the middle of wonderful Jacksonville.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  So, in other words, you're

 

      23        fine with that third condition?

 

      24             MR. DOUGHERTY:  Yes.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             Ms. Eller.

 

       2             MS. ELLER:  To the Chair, if you want to

 

       3        clarify that the subject property shall not be

 

       4        further subdivided beyond the two lots

 

       5        contemplated in this application, if that's okay

 

       6        with the Planning Department, just to be clear.

 

       7             MR. DOUGHERTY:  Can I come back on that,

 

       8        then, and say that should the City ever put

 

       9        water and sewer into this area that I would have

 

      10        the right to go back to RLD-G?

 

      11             MR. KELLY:  Again, the zoning is not

 

      12        changing, and it -- whatever we do tonight has

 

      13        no bearing -- you'd have to come back, if you

 

      14        wanted to put another lot there, and get another

 

      15        waiver or build the road to City standards.  One

 

      16        or the other, so . . .

 

      17             MR. DOUGHERTY:  Thank you, sir.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We either need a

 

      19        motion to grant or to deny the waiver.

 

      20             MR. JOOST:  Move the waiver.

 

      21             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved to grant the

 

      23        waiver and it's been seconded.

 

      24             Any discussion on the amendment to grant

 

      25        the waiver --

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           213

 

 

       1             MR. JOOST:  With the conditions.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- with the conditions?

 

       3             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no discussion, all in

 

       5        favor say aye.

 

       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

       8             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've

 

      10        approved to grant the waiver.

 

      11             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as amended.

 

      12             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      14        seconded with conditions, as amended, to grant

 

      15        the waiver.

 

      16             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      17             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      19        ballot.

 

      20             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      21             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      22             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      23             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      24             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      25             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       3        the vote.

 

       4             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       6        approved -842.

 

       7             -852 is deferred.

 

       8             Top of page 12.  -853 is deferred.  -854 is

 

       9        deferred.  -855 is deferred.  -857 we've already

 

      10        taken up.

 

      11             -858.  We will open the public hearing.

 

      12             Alberta Hipps.

 

      13             (Ms. Hipps approaches the podium.)

 

      14             MS. HIPPS:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 

      15             Alberta Hipps, 1650 Margaret Street, here

 

      16        on behalf of the applicant.

 

      17             We have an approval from the Planning

 

      18        Department and from the Planning Commission, and

 

      19        we'd appreciate your approval tonight.

 

      20             Thank you.

 

      21             I'm here for questions.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is Doyle Carter the

 

      23        applicant?

 

      24             MS. HIPPS:  Yes.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Next time we're going to

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           215

 

 

       1        have to make him come down just to say hello.

 

       2             MS. HIPPS:  Yes, that's right.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Seeing no further

 

       4        speakers, we'll close that public hearing.

 

       5             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

       6             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and

 

       8        seconded.

 

       9             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      12        ballot.

 

      13             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      14             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      15             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      16             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      21        the vote

 

      22             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      24        approved -858.

 

      25             And, Ms. Hipps, tell him I said hello,

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           216

 

 

       1        please.

 

       2             MS. HIPPS:  I will.  Thank you.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Top of page 13.  -859.

 

       4        We'll open the public hearing.

 

       5             Richard Kravitz.

 

       6             (Mr. Kravitz approaches the podium.)

 

       7             MR. KRAVITZ:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

       8             Richard Kravitz, 1650 Margaret Street.

 

       9             This is a proposed semiannual revision to

 

      10        the future land use map.  We're requesting to go

 

      11        from LDR to RPI.  Presently, the property is

 

      12        used and the zoning is multifamily.

 

      13             We passed the Planning Commission

 

      14        unanimously.  We had discussions with the

 

      15        Planning Department on the record at the

 

      16        Planning Commission.  We agree, whether it's an

 

      17        asterisk or whether when we come back for the

 

      18        PUD, when it comes back, that we condition that

 

      19        to make positive, for the record, that we would

 

      20        only do CO zoning, so there will be no retail at

 

      21        all.

 

      22             And the Planning Department, on the record,

 

      23        was satisfied -- well, I don't want to put words

 

      24        in their mouth, but we think that they're

 

      25        satisfied.  It was a technical adjustment.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           217

 

 

       1             But, with that, we would appreciate your

 

       2        favorable vote.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

       4             Seeing no further speakers, we'll close

 

       5        that public hearing.

 

       6             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved

 

       8        and --

 

       9             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- seconded.

 

      11             Anything from the Planning Department?

 

      12             MR. CROFTS:  Just for the record to confirm

 

      13        what Mr. Kravitz said, that we -- we committed

 

      14        to the fact that if he would state on the record

 

      15        this evening before this committee and God and

 

      16        everybody that he would come back and do a PUD

 

      17        that had certain conditions that we could work

 

      18        with, we were -- our concerns were mitigated.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Diane, did you get all that

 

      20        for the record?

 

      21             Okay.  The bill has been moved and

 

      22        seconded.  No further discussion.

 

      23             Please open the ballot.

 

      24             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      25             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       3             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       6        the vote.

 

       7             MS. LAHMEUR:  Four yeas, zero nays.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       9        approved -859.

 

      10             MR. KRAVITZ:  Thank you.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  -860.  We will open that

 

      12        public hearing.

 

      13             We have Paige Johnston.

 

      14             (Ms. Johnston approaches the podium.)

 

      15             MS. JOHNSTON:  Paige Johnston, 1301

 

      16        Riverplace Boulevard, on behalf of the

 

      17        applicant.

 

      18             This is also an application for a

 

      19        semiannual land use amendment.  It started out

 

      20        as a small scale and was one of the ones that

 

      21        needed to be converted due to the DCA

 

      22        interpretation.

 

      23             We have a PUD on file as well, but -- we've

 

      24        been through the Planning Commission with

 

      25        support, we have an approval from the Planning

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        Department, and the councilperson is aware of

 

       2        the application and is willing to allow it to

 

       3        move forward through transmittal, so we would

 

       4        request your support.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

       6             Let the record show that Ms. Johnston is

 

       7        speaking for Dr. Valentine and Charles Mann.

 

       8             We'll close that public hearing.

 

       9             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

      10             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      12        seconded.

 

      13             Any further discussion on the bill?

 

      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      16        ballot.

 

      17             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      18             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      20             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      21             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      22             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      23             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      25        the vote.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           220

 

 

       1             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       3        approved -860.

 

       4             MS. JOHNSTON:  Thank you.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  -861.  We'll open the public

 

       6        hearing.

 

       7             Dan Boswell, come on down.

 

       8             (Mr. Boswell approaches the podium.)

 

       9             MR. BOSWELL:  Dan Boswell, 4014 Ranie Road.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Questions only?

 

      11             MR. BOSWELL:  For questions only.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're a good man.

 

      13             Seeing no further speakers, we'll close

 

      14        that public hearing.

 

      15             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

      16             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill has been moved and

 

      18        seconded.

 

      19             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      20             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      22        ballot.

 

      23             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      24             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      25             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       3             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       6        the vote.

 

       7             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       9        approved -861.

 

      10             MR. BOSWELL:  Thank you very much.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  -862.  We'll open the public

 

      12        hearing.

 

      13             Mr. Harden.

 

      14             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)

 

      15             MR. HARDEN:  Paul Harden, 501 Riverside

 

      16        Avenue.

 

      17             This is a transmittal -- are there any

 

      18        other cards, speaker cards?

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  No.

 

      20             MR. HARDEN:  Okay.  This is a transmittal

 

      21        for a small scale amendment in Councilman Shad's

 

      22        district.  He supports the application.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further speakers,

 

      24        we'll close that public hearing.

 

      25             MR. JOOST:  Move -862.

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and

 

       3        seconded.

 

       4             Any discussion on the bill?

 

       5             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

       7        ballot.

 

       8             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       9             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      10             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      11             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      12             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      13             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      14             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      16        the vote.

 

      17             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      19        approved -862.

 

      20             -863.  We will open the public hearing.

 

      21             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Calvin Burney.

 

      23             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Calvin Burney, 3909

 

      24        Soutel Drive, Jacksonville, Florida 32208.

 

      25             I'm here representing the applicant and

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           223

 

 

       1        would answer any questions that you might have.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, to let you know, we

 

       3        were asked by the district councilperson to

 

       4        defer this bill.

 

       5             MR. BURNEY:  Okay.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  So we're just going to close

 

       7        the public hearing and just defer it.

 

       8             You probably want to get in contact with

 

       9        her and find out what it is that she's holding

 

      10        this bill up for --

 

      11             MR. BURNEY:  Okay.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- because she's asked for

 

      13        us to hold this one up and two others, so I

 

      14        would definitely recommend you contact her

 

      15        before next Monday because this is supposed to

 

      16        come before the council next Monday, but since

 

      17        we're deferring it, it's just going to kind of

 

      18        be in limbo.

 

      19             MR. BURNEY:  Okay.  I will contact her

 

      20        tomorrow.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.

 

      22             MR. BURNEY:  Thank you.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

      24             Seeing no further speakers --

 

      25             (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           224

 

 

       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Were you speaking on --

 

       2             MR. MANN:  No, sir.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.

 

       4             MR. MANN:  I was trying to move it along.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further speakers,

 

       6        we'll close that public hearing and take no

 

       7        further action.

 

       8             Top of page 14.  -864.  We'll open the

 

       9        public hearing.

 

      10             MR. MANN:  Mr. Chairman, Charles Mann, 165

 

      11        Arlington Road, representing the landowners on

 

      12        this.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Are you speaking for

 

      14        everybody?

 

      15             MR. MANN:  I think I -- well, I can, sir.

 

      16        We'll keep it that way.

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, hold on, Mr. Mann.

 

      18        Let's hear from Gennifer --

 

      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Mathurin.

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Come on down.

 

      21             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm not with him.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, no.  That's why I want

 

      23        you to come down and speak.

 

      24             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  You've got three minutes.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           225

 

 

       1        Just your name and address for the record,

 

       2        please.

 

       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Gennifer

 

       4        Mathurin.  Again, I'm the president of the

 

       5        Cinnamon Lakes II Homeowners Association that

 

       6        abuts the property on one side, technically.

 

       7             We've discussed and we think we will be

 

       8        able to get somewhere with the property owners

 

       9        in regards to the PUD; however, per Mr. Mann's

 

      10        own testimony at the last hearing and what we've

 

      11        since read in the planning committee's

 

      12        recommendation that the project be denied, we're

 

      13        concerned at Park City Road [sic].  Is it going

 

      14        to stay residential and small?  Is it going to

 

      15        become a feeder road and spread?  And how will

 

      16        that figure into this?

 

      17             So, at this point, we still oppose the

 

      18        project, and we want that on record.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, ma'am.

 

      20             Mr. Mann.

 

      21             (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)

 

      22             MR. MANN:  Mr. Chairman and members of the

 

      23        committee, Charles Mann, 165 Arlington Road,

 

      24        representing the landowners.

 

      25             Again, the status of Park City Road, while

 

 

 

 

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                                                           226

 

 

       1        it's a concern to the neighborhood, it's a

 

       2        concern to my client, it really has no bearing

 

       3        on the zoning.

 

       4             We have a CCAS for this, which we presented

 

       5        at the Planning Commission, that showed that our

 

       6        project is not going to impact negatively on

 

       7        Park City or on Rampart.  But to make this very

 

       8        brief -- and I understand the hour is late --

 

       9        Rampart is a north-south collector.  It is a

 

      10        very busy street.  It's under the status of

 

      11        being improved.  The next street to the west is

 

      12        Ricker.  Again, a north-south collector.

 

      13        Park City connects these two.  While it's, I

 

      14        guess, classified as a local road, it still

 

      15        collects a lot of traffic from Rampart and from

 

      16        Ricker because it's one of the through streets

 

      17        below 103rd before you get down to Argyle, and

 

      18        I'm sure that it will eventually be improved.

 

      19             The neighborhood has had quite a few

 

      20        concerns.  We have tried to address them.  Such

 

      21        things as the site is an old mobile home site

 

      22        with many, supposedly, buried septic tanks.

 

      23        That is a Department of Environmental Protection

 

      24        issue.  They have rules and regulations for the

 

      25        removal of these.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           227

 

 

       1             We're at a collector, Park City and -- or

 

       2        where Park City should be classified as a

 

       3        collector, when they reclassify the roads, just

 

       4        based on the traffic that is on it.

 

       5             I believe the Planning Department has

 

       6        tempered their response based on the PUD that we

 

       7        have submitted and the evidence that was

 

       8        presented at the Planning Commission, and we

 

       9        would ask that you support this.

 

      10             This is very similar to the application

 

      11        that you had on McCormick, item 2008-827, and a

 

      12        lot of the same issues affect it.  They're both

 

      13        LDR to NC.  They both front on collectors.  They

 

      14        both are relatively close to neighborhoods.

 

      15        Both of them have buffering from the

 

      16        neighborhoods.  Ours has a 30-foot-wide

 

      17        easement, plus we're going to have our own

 

      18        complementary buffer.

 

      19             The way our site plan is designed, we are

 

      20        transgressing [sic] from a light use next to the

 

      21        neighborhood, either a bank or professional

 

      22        office, to a more heavier use 500 feet away on

 

      23        the corner of Park City and Rampart, which would

 

      24        be our more heavier use, our commercial use, our

 

      25        convenience store, gas station.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             We ask that you support this.  The Planning

 

       2        Commission supported it.

 

       3             Thank you very much.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

       5             MR. MANN:  We have letters from the

 

       6        Northside -- or the Westside Businessmen's

 

       7        Association, also the Argyle Civic Association,

 

       8        and the church that we purchased the property

 

       9        from, which will retain the lower -- or southern

 

      10        six to seven acres of the site for future use to

 

      11        build a church on.

 

      12             I have these letters, if you would like

 

      13        them, for support.

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  We'll file them for the

 

      15        record.

 

      16             Thank you, sir.

 

      17             MR. MANN:  Thank you.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further speakers,

 

      19        we will close that public hearing.

 

      20             Planning Department, I have you guys down

 

      21        here as a denial and Planning Commission as an

 

      22        approval.

 

      23             MR. CROFTS:  Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.

 

      24             There were issues -- there was information

 

      25        on -- and I personally went out and looked at

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        this site subsequent to its submittal and before

 

       2        the Planning Commission.

 

       3             In looking at the PUD -- and keep in mind,

 

       4        under normal circumstances, this particular --

 

       5        this particular amendment would have to come to

 

       6        us with a -- as a small scale with a companion

 

       7        rezoning.

 

       8             We got the PUD subsequent to the amendment,

 

       9        and we're really not looking at the PUD, but

 

      10        these issues have come forth.  And with the

 

      11        applicant going on the record and indicating

 

      12        that he was going to be transitioning the uses,

 

      13        there would be a buffer between this development

 

      14        and the residential, there would be sensitivity

 

      15        to intensity and density as it related to the

 

      16        commercial neighborhood type of land use

 

      17        category, that we felt that this would -- should

 

      18        continue along the path, as we've talked about,

 

      19        one step in the process.  And, in this

 

      20        particular case, we would support that moving

 

      21        forward.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.

 

      23             Well, I didn't hear any conditions in that,

 

      24        so it sounds like we're moving forward, if

 

      25        somebody moves the bill --

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             MR. JOOST:  I would move it.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- and someone seconds it.

 

       3             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any further discussion on

 

       5        the bill?

 

       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

       8        ballot.

 

       9             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      10             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      11             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      13             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      14             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      15             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      17        the vote

 

      18             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      20        approved -864.

 

      21             -865.  Open the public hearing.  We have

 

      22        Mr. Mann and Mr. Taylor.

 

      23             (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't see Mr. Taylor.

 

      25        Mr. Mann, you're the one.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           231

 

 

       1             MR. MANN:  Some days I get lucky.

 

       2             Charles Mann, 165 Arlington Road,

 

       3        representing the landowner.

 

       4             This is in Councilman Holt's district.  I

 

       5        was hoping he was going to be here.

 

       6             MR. JOOST:  He's right there (indicating).

 

       7             MR. MANN:  Oh, I'm sorry.

 

       8             Again, this is an application.  It's a

 

       9        small scale transmittal.  We've worked very,

 

      10        very closely with the neighborhood.

 

      11             This site is currently zoned for

 

      12        multifamily, which I believe the neighborhood

 

      13        and the area councilman, if I'm not speaking for

 

      14        him, would like to see go away.

 

      15             We've proposed a commercial development

 

      16        here.  You've got a picture.  It is a north and

 

      17        south piece.  The southern piece is being

 

      18        developed as commercial, CCG-1-type uses, which

 

      19        are the same type uses that are directly across

 

      20        the street from it.  The northern half of the

 

      21        property is being zoned for very light office,

 

      22        professional-type uses.  And directly across the

 

      23        street from that is an apartment/townhouse

 

      24        project, multifamily project.

 

      25             We feel like that we're a good mix for the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        neighborhood.  This is designated as a

 

       2        commercial node in your Northside Vision Plan,

 

       3        and we would ask that you support it.

 

       4             I believe, again, the Planning Department

 

       5        may be tempering their position based on the

 

       6        fact that we're doing a PUD.  And at the

 

       7        Planning Commission we read in a series of

 

       8        criteria for the PUD that we will institute

 

       9        whenever the PUD -- or whenever this comes back

 

      10        from DCA for a second review.

 

      11             Thank you.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We will close that

 

      13        public hearing.

 

      14             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

      15             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill has been moved and

 

      17        seconded.

 

      18             Any further discussion on the bill?

 

      19             MR. JOOST:  (Inaudible.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  I think someone wants to

 

      21        hear from the Planning Department.

 

      22             MR. CROFTS:  I would concur with the fact

 

      23        that our concern was the extension of the

 

      24        commercial beyond the face-off of the commercial

 

      25        on the east side of the road and that there be a

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        transition going down north of -- that would be

 

       2        opposite to the multifamily uses.

 

       3             And that's our objective, and we are going

 

       4        to verify and certify that, as indicated on the

 

       5        record by Mr. Mann, through a PUD.

 

       6             So we would support the furtherance of this

 

       7        moving along.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Holt.

 

       9             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 

      10             I just want to clarify that the Planning

 

      11        Department's opposition was based on the fact

 

      12        that -- I guess originally the commercial

 

      13        portion of this was going further north than

 

      14        across the street from it, but now I understand

 

      15        Mr. Mann has revised that and the commercial

 

      16        portion will go no further north than across the

 

      17        street, and from that point to the northern end

 

      18        will be office or some sort of less --

 

      19             MR. MANN:  Less intensive uses.

 

      20             MR. HOLT:  -- less intense uses.

 

      21             There will also be a 30-foot buffer on the

 

      22        northern boundary; is that correct, Mr. Mann?

 

      23             MR. MANN:  Through the Chair to Mr. Holt.

 

      24        Mr. Holt, that was in the series of conditions

 

      25        we read at the Planning Commission.  I'll be

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           234

 

 

       1        glad to read them tonight if -- in the record

 

       2        again if you want them.

 

       3             But, yes, sir, that is correct.  It's going

 

       4        to be a natural buffer with the fence on the

 

       5        inside.  We also had conditions such as no

 

       6        building facing the north property line could

 

       7        have a window above the second floor.  We're

 

       8        going to move the dumpster to the south end of

 

       9        the northern piece of property.

 

      10             There was a series of conditions such as

 

      11        that -- we do have one issue that we've got to

 

      12        work with the neighborhood on, and that's as far

 

      13        as a driveway runs parallel to the north

 

      14        boundary.  We're going to have to address that,

 

      15        but the neighborhood and I have agreed that

 

      16        we'll get together on that before it comes back

 

      17        and have an answer on that one.

 

      18             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  And several of the uses

 

      19        within the commercial were removed, such as --

 

      20             MR. MANN:  Yes, sir.  We removed things

 

      21        such as pawnshops, adult bookstores, adult

 

      22        entertainment, the sale and service of liquor,

 

      23        second-hand shops, massage parlors, a whole

 

      24        series of those things, sir.

 

      25             MR. HOLT:  Thank you very much.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           235

 

 

       1             MR. MANN:  Thank you.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further questions,

 

       3        we're on the bill as moved and seconded.

 

       4             Open the ballot.

 

       5             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       6             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       7             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       8             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       9             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      10             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      11             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      13        the vote.

 

      14             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      16        approved -865.

 

      17             -866.  Open the public hearing.

 

      18             (Ms. Johnston approaches the podium.)

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Johnston.

 

      20             MS. JOHNSTON:  Paige Johnston, 1301

 

      21        Riverplace Boulevard, on behalf of the

 

      22        applicant.

 

      23             This is also a semiannual land use

 

      24        application requesting a change from LDR to

 

      25        RPI.  This property is located west of

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           236

 

 

       1        St. Johns Bluff Road and it's contiguous to

 

       2        other property owned by the applicant which they

 

       3        intend to file a rezoning for after transmittal

 

       4        of the application.

 

       5             We've met with Councilman Bishop, and his

 

       6        only request regarding the application was to

 

       7        ensure that we limited access so that it was

 

       8        coming off of St. Johns Bluff and would not go

 

       9        out in the other direction towards Cortez Road,

 

      10        and we have prepared a declaration of

 

      11        restrictions that would deed the property

 

      12        so -- to limit that access.

 

      13             The Planning Department has recommend

 

      14        approval and so has the Planning Commission.  We

 

      15        request your support as well.

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.

 

      17             Seeing no further speakers, we'll close

 

      18        that public hearing.

 

      19             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

      20             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      22        seconded.

 

      23             Any further discussion on the bill?

 

      24             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        ballot.

 

       2             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       3             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       6             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       7             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       8             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      10        the vote.

 

      11             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      13        approved -866.

 

      14             MS. JOHNSTON:  Thank you.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  -867.  We will open the

 

      16        public hearing.

 

      17             (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)

 

      18             MR. DUGGAN:  Wyman Duggan, 1301 Riverplace

 

      19        Boulevard, Suite 1500.

 

      20             This is a semiannual land use amendment,

 

      21        although, actually, I have worked out, I

 

      22        believe, with Mr. Crofts, an arrangement -- an

 

      23        understanding that we can proceed to do the

 

      24        proposed development through a PUD.  And if he

 

      25        will put on the record our agreement, then we're

 

 

 

 

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       1        going to move to withdraw this bill.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Are you done

 

       3        speaking?

 

       4             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes.

 

       5             Actually, I want to make sure that it's

 

       6        withdrawn with fees.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.  It is withdrawn with

 

       8        fees.

 

       9             MR. DUGGAN:  But I would like him to put on

 

      10        the record our understanding in that respect

 

      11        before I withdraw.

 

      12             Thank you.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let me close the public

 

      14        hearing.

 

      15             The public hearing is closed.

 

      16             Mr. Crofts.

 

      17             MR. CROFTS:  Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.

 

      18             We support the withdrawal of 2008-867.

 

      19             There are standards within the BP land use

 

      20        category which relate to hotels, motels,

 

      21        restaurants and similar supporting commercial

 

      22        uses within that category.  And, as I indicated

 

      23        to Mr. Duggan, we're confident that we can work

 

      24        out with him the fact that there will no longer

 

      25        be -- that his particular proposal, supportive

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        PUD, would be consistent with the comprehensive

 

       2        plan.

 

       3             And I would add that if I didn't feel

 

       4        confident with us not doing this, we wouldn't

 

       5        support the withdrawal, so I hope that that goes

 

       6        to assure you that -- our willingness to work

 

       7        with you on this item.

 

       8             MR. DUGGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Crofts.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We have -- somebody

 

      10        move to withdraw with fees.

 

      11             MR. HOLT:  Move to withdraw with fees.

 

      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  And it's been seconded.

 

      14             Any further discussion on the withdrawal?

 

      15             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      17        ballot.

 

      18             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      19             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      20             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      21             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      22             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      23             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      24             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        the vote.

 

       2             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       4        withdrawn -867.

 

       5             MR. DUGGAN:  Thank you.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Duggan.

 

       7             -868.  Open the public hearing.

 

       8             Seeing no speakers, close the public

 

       9        hearing.

 

      10             MR. HOLT:  Move to withdraw.

 

      11             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded

 

      13        to withdraw.

 

      14             Any discussion on the withdrawal?

 

      15             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      17        ballot.

 

      18             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      19             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      20             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      21             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      22             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      23             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      24             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        the vote.

 

       2             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       4        withdrawn -868.

 

       5             -869.  Open the public hearing.

 

       6             (Ms. Ezell approaches the podium.)

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Brenda Ezell, welcome home.

 

       8             MS. EZELL:  Hi.

 

       9             Brenda Ezell, 6 East Bay Street, Suite 500,

 

      10        here on behalf of the applicant.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  No further speakers.  Close

 

      12        the public hearing.

 

      13             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.

 

      14             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      16        seconded.

 

      17             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      18             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      20        ballot.

 

      21             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      22             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      23             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      24             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      25             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           242

 

 

       1             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       4        the vote.

 

       5             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       7        withdrawn -869.

 

       8             Thank you, Ms. Ezell.

 

       9             MS. EZELL:  Not withdrawn.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm sorry.  You've moved

 

      11        -869.

 

      12             MS. EZELL:  Thank you.

 

      13             Good evening.

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  -870.  Open the public

 

      15        hearing.

 

      16             (Mr. Hart approaches the podium.)

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Hart.

 

      18             MR. HART:  Justin Hart, 8051 Tara Lane.

 

      19             If there's -- if you need an explanation,

 

      20        any questions, be glad to answer them.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Nope.

 

      22             We'll close that public hearing.

 

      23             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.

 

      24             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           243

 

 

       1        seconded.

 

       2             Any discussion on the bill?

 

       3             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

       5        ballot.

 

       6             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       7             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       8             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       9             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      10             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      11             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      12             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      14        the vote.

 

      15             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      17        approved -870.

 

      18             -871.  Open the public hearing.

 

      19             (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Mann.

 

      21             MR. MANN:  Charles Mann, 165 Arlington

 

      22        Road, representing the landowner.

 

      23             I will stand by for questions.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We'll close that

 

      25        public hearing.

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

       2             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

       4        seconded.

 

       5             Any further discussion on the bill?

 

       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

       8        ballot.

 

       9             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      10             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      11             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      13             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      14             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      15             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      17        the vote.

 

      18             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      20        approved -871.

 

      21             MR. MANN:  Thank you very much.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  -872.  Open the public

 

      23        hearing.

 

      24             (Mr. Hart approaches the podium.)

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Hart.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             MR. HART:  Justin Hart, 8051 Tara Lane.

 

       2             Be glad to answer any questions if there's

 

       3        anyone else to speak.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no questions of

 

       5        Mr. Hart, we'll close that public hearing.

 

       6             Someone move the bill.

 

       7             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.

 

       8             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and

 

      10        seconded.

 

      11             Any further discussion on the bill?

 

      12             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      14        ballot.

 

      15             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      16             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      20             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      21             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      23        the vote.

 

      24             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        approved -872.

 

       2             Mr. Hart, have you got any more of these

 

       3        things on here?

 

       4             MR. HART:  The next one.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  -873.  Open the public

 

       6        hearing.

 

       7             You're going to say the same thing.  We'll

 

       8        close the public hearing.

 

       9             MR. HART:  Yes, sir.

 

      10             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

      11             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      13        seconded.

 

      14             Any further discussion on the bill?

 

      15             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      17        ballot.

 

      18             MR. HART:  Thank you.

 

      19             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      20             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      21             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      22             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      23             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      24             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      25             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       2        the vote.

 

       3             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved

 

       5        -873.

 

       6             Is that it, Mr. Hart?

 

       7             MR. HART:  No, sir.  I do have one more, if

 

       8        you don't mind.  2008-922.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  -922.  Let's just get it out

 

      10        of the way and move on with life.

 

      11             MR. HART:  Simple development agreement so

 

      12        we can develop a retail center and a couple of

 

      13        restaurants in several phases.

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  We'll open that public

 

      15        hearing.

 

      16             Seeing no speakers -- well, seeing the

 

      17        speaker, we'll close that public hearing.

 

      18             Move the bill.

 

      19             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

      20             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and

 

      22        seconded.  We're on -922.

 

      23             Seeing no speakers -- I mean, seeing no

 

      24        discussion, please open the ballot.

 

      25             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           248

 

 

       1             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       3             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       6             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       8        the vote.

 

       9             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      11        approved -922.

 

      12             MR. HART:  Thank you.

 

      13             (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Duggan, are you here for

 

      15        -874?

 

      16             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes.  Questions only.

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We'll open and close.

 

      18             Any questions of Mr. Duggan?

 

      19             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Someone's got to move the

 

      21        bill.

 

      22             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.

 

      23             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and

 

      25        seconded.

 

 

 

 

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       1             Any discussion on the bill?

 

       2             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

       4        ballot.

 

       5             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       6             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       7             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       8             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       9             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      10             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      11             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      13        the vote.

 

      14             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      16        approved -874.

 

      17             Have you got any more on here?

 

      18             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.

 

      19             Top of page 20, item 76.

 

      20             I'm available for questions.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Item 76, -909?

 

      22             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes, sir.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  -909.  We'll open the public

 

      24        hearing.

 

      25             We'll close the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             MR. HOLT:  Move the amendment.

 

       2             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment's been moved

 

       4        and seconded.

 

       5             Do we need to hear the amendment?

 

       6             MS. ELLER:  It's a technical amendment to

 

       7        attach the map.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Are you happy with that?

 

       9             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes, sir.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  All in favor of the

 

      11        amendment say aye.

 

      12             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved

 

      16        the amendment.

 

      17             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as amended.

 

      18             MR. REDMAN:  Second.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      20        seconded as amended.

 

      21             Any further discussion on the bill?

 

      22             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      24        ballot.

 

      25             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           251

 

 

       1             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       3             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       6             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       8        the vote.

 

       9             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      11        approved -909.

 

      12             Any more?

 

      13             MR. DUGGAN:  That's it.  Thank you.

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right, Mr. Duggan.  Go

 

      15        home.

 

      16             Okay.  -875, we'll open that public

 

      17        hearing.

 

      18             (Ms. Hipps approaches the podium.)

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Hipps.

 

      20             MS. HIPPS:  Mr. Chairman, Alberta Hipps,

 

      21        1650 Margaret Street.

 

      22             As was discussed in your agenda meeting

 

      23        today, the councilwoman has asked that this be

 

      24        deferred this evening, and hopefully we have a

 

      25        community meeting Wednesday evening at 6:30 at

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        the Dinsmore Community Center if you-all happen

 

       2        to get calls.

 

       3             I do have materials here if you'd like to

 

       4        look at the site plan -- or the location in case

 

       5        we get it out.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  I would like to --

 

       7             MS. HIPPS:  Okay.  Good.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- because when she's asked

 

       9        for it to be discharged, I just want for the

 

      10        committee members to have all their questions

 

      11        answered.

 

      12             MS. HIPPS:  Well, I'd appreciate that, yes.

 

      13             MS. ELLER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      14             If this is up for discharge, it's my

 

      15        understanding that the council would need to

 

      16        consider a floor amendment to make a correction

 

      17        to the legal description and the map to include

 

      18        areas that were previously not included because

 

      19        of an easement issue.

 

      20             Is that your understanding, Ms. Hipps?

 

      21             MS. HIPPS:  Well, I did not realize that it

 

      22        had to have an amendment, but I did get the

 

      23        information on the easement to the Planning

 

      24        Department, so --

 

      25             MS. ELLER:  It's my understanding from Bob

 

 

 

 

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       1        Riley's communication that the legal description

 

       2        and the map would have to be swapped out in

 

       3        order to reflect the corrected -- the correct

 

       4        exhibits.

 

       5             So if it is discharged, Mr. Chairman, we'd

 

       6        need a floor amendment to correct that.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Well, I have all the

 

       8        faith in the world that you're going to make

 

       9        sure that we're in the proper order Monday

 

      10        night.

 

      11             And you're fine with that, Ms. Hipps?

 

      12             MS. HIPPS:  Yes, I am --

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  And --

 

      14             MS. HIPPS:  -- you know, unless -- I know

 

      15        she asked for it to be deferred, so I'm not

 

      16        asking you to vote on that, but just --

 

      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  No.  Yeah, that's fine.

 

      18             And not knowing what's going to come out of

 

      19        your meeting Wednesday night --

 

      20             MS. HIPPS:  Right.

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- because there may be some

 

      22        more conditions or something added to this.

 

      23             MS. HIPPS:  Right.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.

 

      25             MS. HIPPS:  Just very briefly, Southland

 

 

 

 

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       1        Waste owns this property.  It's an 80-acre tract

 

       2        on Imeson, which was the City of Jacksonville's

 

       3        yard waste and mulching facility, has -- it has

 

       4        that as a past history.

 

       5             In the packets that you have, Southland

 

       6        Waste has three locations in the city, and they

 

       7        are wanting to combine those locations to this

 

       8        site.  And the recycling site is on Margaret --

 

       9        Market Street.  The recycling is the only thing,

 

      10        operationwise, that will be there.

 

      11             I would appreciate, if you get any calls,

 

      12        that it would be a dump, it is not.  It is a

 

      13        recycling facility that is enclosed within a --

 

      14        totally enclosed.  And you can see the one on

 

      15        Market Street, which I have a picture of.  It's

 

      16        right near Kirby Smith junior high school --

 

      17        middle school.

 

      18             They recycle paper mainly and confidential

 

      19        materials, shred paper, bail cardboard, and so

 

      20        forth like that.

 

      21             And the Morgan Street operation is where

 

      22        the residential -- they have one segment of the

 

      23        city that they have a contract for residential

 

      24        pickup, and that's where they have their

 

      25        residential operations.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           255

 

 

       1             And off of Baymeadows Way -- on Western Way

 

       2        off of Baymeadows Road I should say is their

 

       3        other operation where they have their commercial

 

       4        operation, where it is the -- when they go to

 

       5        offices and have the dumpsters and pick up that.

 

       6             So they have owned this property for quite

 

       7        sometime.

 

       8             The next map in your booklet shows that

 

       9        this location is off of I-295, down Pritchard

 

      10        Road, and then to Imeson Road, and the

 

      11        surrounding uses.

 

      12             The next item in your booklet, if you're

 

      13        following along, it's an aerial map that shows

 

      14        right across the way is the CSX rail line, and

 

      15        the Westlake Pattillo project is right at

 

      16        Pritchard and Imeson.  And then you go north,

 

      17        and you can see where the 80-acre tract is

 

      18        there.

 

      19             And the last map is -- the next to last map

 

      20        is an aerial of the property as it is today, and

 

      21        then you have a land use map.

 

      22             The Planning Department has written a

 

      23        report that shows it is compatible with IL

 

      24        zoning, which is the request of this land use

 

      25        amendment.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             And if you-all have any questions about

 

       2        this between now and Tuesday -- I mean, Monday

 

       3        evening -- I don't want to take a lot of your

 

       4        time.  I wanted just for you to have the

 

       5        opportunity to familiarize yourself, but I'd be

 

       6        glad to answer any questions.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Hipps.  We

 

       8        appreciate it.

 

       9             Seeing no further speakers, we'll close

 

      10        that public hearing.  And I think we're just

 

      11        going to take no action and wait to see what

 

      12        happens Wednesday.

 

      13             -876.  We'll open that public hearing.

 

      14             Ms. Hipps, is that you?

 

      15             MS. HIPPS:  Yes.  Sorry.

 

      16             Alberta Hipps, 1650 Margaret Street.

 

      17             I'm here to answer any questions.

 

      18             We have an approval from the Planning

 

      19        Department and from the Planning Commission.

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.

 

      21             We'll close that public hearing.

 

      22             Don't go anywhere.

 

      23             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.

 

      24             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           257

 

 

       1        seconded.

 

       2             Any discussion on the bill?

 

       3             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

       5        ballot.

 

       6             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       7             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       8             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       9             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      10             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      11             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      13        the vote.

 

      14             MS. LAHMEUR:  Four yeas, zero nays.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      16        approved -876.

 

      17             Do you have any other ones on this agenda?

 

      18             MS. HIPPS:  No.  Thank you.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Have a good night,

 

      20        Ms. Hipps.

 

      21             MS. HIPPS:  Thank you.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  -877.  Open the public

 

      23        hearing.

 

      24             (Mr. Boswell approaches the podium.)

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Boswell.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           258

 

 

       1             MR. BOSWELL:  Yes, sir.

 

       2             Dan Boswell, 4014 Ranie Road.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Questions only?

 

       4             MR. BOSWELL:  Questions only.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're a good man.

 

       6             We'll close the public hearing.

 

       7             MR. REDMAN:  Move the bill.

 

       8             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      10        seconded.

 

      11             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      12             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      14        ballot.

 

      15             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      16             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      20             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      22        the vote.

 

      23             MS. LAHMEUR:  Four yeas, zero nays.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've

 

      25        approved -877.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             Dan, you got anything else?

 

       2             MR. BOSWELL:  That's it --

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Have a good night, sir.

 

       4             MR. BOSWELL:  -- thank God.

 

       5             Thank you.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  -878.  We'll open the public

 

       7        hearing.

 

       8             (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)

 

       9             MR. MANN:  Charles Mann, 165 Arlington

 

      10        Road, representing the landowner.

 

      11             Questions only.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're a good man, Mr. Mann.

 

      13             We'll close that public hearing.

 

      14             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.

 

      15             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      17        seconded.

 

      18             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      19             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      21        ballot.

 

      22             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      23             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      24             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      25             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       4        the vote.

 

       5             MS. LAHMEUR:  Four yeas, zero nays.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       7        approved -879 -- I'm sorry, -878.

 

       8             Do you have any others?

 

       9             MR. MANN:  No, sir.  I'm done.

 

      10             Thank you.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.  Have a good

 

      12        night too.

 

      13             Top of page 17.  We've already done -879.

 

      14             -880.  We'll open the public hearing.

 

      15             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public

 

      16        hearing and take no further action.

 

      17             -881.  We'll open the public hearing.

 

      18             Alex Kane.

 

      19             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, name and address for

 

      21        the record.

 

      22             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.

 

      23             My name is Alex Kane of 200 South Orange

 

      24        Avenue in Orlando, Florida.

 

      25             I'm here to respond to any questions you

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           261

 

 

       1        may have of me.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're a good man, sir.

 

       3             Seeing no questions, we'll close the public

 

       4        hearing.

 

       5             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.

 

       6             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

       8        seconded.

 

       9             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      12        ballot.

 

      13             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      14             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      15             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      16             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      21        the vote.

 

      22             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      24        approved -881.

 

      25             Thank you, sir.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             MR. KANE:  Thank you and good evening.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Have a safe drive home.

 

       3             MR. KANE:  Thank you.

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  -882.  We'll open the public

 

       5        hearing.

 

       6             (Ms. Johnston approaches the podium.)

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Johnston.

 

       8             MS. JOHNSTON:  Paige Johnston, 1301

 

       9        Riverplace Boulevard, on behalf of the

 

      10        applicant.

 

      11             This application is a portion of property

 

      12        that was part of the Timucuan DRI.  We are

 

      13        requesting a land use change to MU to take it to

 

      14        a regional activity center, and the specifics of

 

      15        that regional activity center will be explained

 

      16        in the zoning application.

 

      17             I'm just going to stand by for questions.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're a good woman.

 

      19             We'll close the public hearing.

 

      20             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.

 

      21             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      23        seconded.

 

      24             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      25             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           263

 

 

       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

       2        ballot.

 

       3             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       4             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       6             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       7             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       8             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       9             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      11        the vote.

 

      12             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've

 

      14        approved -882.

 

      15             Paige, do you have anything else?

 

      16             MS. JOHNSTON:  No.  That's all.

 

      17             Thank you and have a great night.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  You have a good night.

 

      19             -883.  We'll open the public hearing.

 

      20             (Mr. Herzberg approaches the podium.)

 

      21             MR. HERZBERG:  Mr. Chairman, Mike Herzberg,

 

      22        for questions only.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Herzberg, can we open

 

      24        the public hearings for -884 and -885 as well?

 

      25             MR. HERZBERG:  At your pleasure.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           264

 

 

       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  All those public hearings

 

       2        are open.

 

       3             You have nothing to add for any of those?

 

       4             MR. HERZBERG:  Just here for questions,

 

       5        sir.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  We will close the public

 

       7        hearing for all those.

 

       8             MR. JOOST:  Move -883.

 

       9             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  -883 has been moved and

 

      11        seconded.

 

      12             No discussion.  Please open the ballot.

 

      13             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      14             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      15             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      16             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      17             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      18             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      19             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      21        the vote.

 

      22             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've

 

      24        approved -883.

 

      25             MR. JOOST:  Move -884.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           265

 

 

       1             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  -884 has been moved and

 

       3        seconded.

 

       4             Planning Department, if you've got

 

       5        anything, let me know as I'm cruising through.

 

       6             MR. CROFTS:  Okay.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no discussion, please

 

       8        open the ballot.

 

       9             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      10             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      11             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      13             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      14             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      15             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      17        the vote.

 

      18             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've

 

      20        approved -884.

 

      21             -885.

 

      22             MR. JOOST:  Move -885.

 

      23             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and

 

      25        seconded.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1             Any discussion on the bill?

 

       2             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

       4        ballot.

 

       5             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       6             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       7             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       8             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       9             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      10             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      11             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

      13        the vote

 

      14             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved

 

      16        -885.

 

      17             MR. HERZBERG:  Thank you all.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Herzberg, have a good

 

      19        one.

 

      20             Is that it for you?

 

      21             MR. HERZBERG:  Yes, sir.  Thank you.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  -886.  We will open

 

      23        the public hearing.

 

      24             Ms. Zievis.

 

      25             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           267

 

 

       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

       2             Mary Lou Zievis, 1898 Sea Oats Drive,

 

       3        Atlantic Beach.

 

       4             I have packets.

 

       5             I'm losing time with these packets being

 

       6        passed out.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're fine.

 

       8             MS. ZIEVIS:  Please see the exhibits on the

 

       9        right-hand side of your packet.  We are

 

      10        addressing the Bayard Master Plan.  And if you

 

      11        will also look in the left-hand side pocket, you

 

      12        will see visuals of that community.

 

      13             Returning to the exhibits, Exhibit 1,

 

      14        page 2 shows our property outlined in blue.

 

      15        Note the service road.

 

      16             Originally, the DOT was to take 50 feet off

 

      17        the front of our property to widen Philips

 

      18        Highway.  With the Bayard Master Plan, that

 

      19        widening is eliminated, and replacing it is a

 

      20        service road, isn't going to help traffic flow

 

      21        and decreases the value of the commercial

 

      22        property on it.

 

      23             The intent of the Bayard Master Plan was

 

      24        traditional neighborhood design.  On page 3,

 

      25        Exhibit 2 you will see quotes from traditional

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           268

 

 

       1        neighborhood design best practices cited on the

 

       2        City's website.

 

       3             Exhibit 3 on that page shows how greatly

 

       4        that design has been compromised.  You have

 

       5        commercial and then residential.  In the circle,

 

       6        that red circle is the mixed use which consists

 

       7        of limited retail and live/work units.

 

       8             What bank is going to loan money to someone

 

       9        who wants to hide his retail business three

 

      10        blocks away from the main road, further

 

      11        encumbered with a service road?

 

      12             Exhibit 4, on page 4, shows greater

 

      13        compromise created with the recent development

 

      14        of a strip shopping center that does not comply

 

      15        with traditional neighborhood design and does

 

      16        not incorporate the Bayard Master Plan

 

      17        architectural requirements.  It is, I will tell

 

      18        you, however, an improvement on what was there

 

      19        previously.

 

      20             Exhibit 5, on page 5, shows the gas

 

      21        station/mini mart that butts up to our

 

      22        property.  If the Bayard Master Plan is adopted,

 

      23        future residences on our property will face the

 

      24        back of a strip center, seen on Exhibit 6,

 

      25        page 6.  Other residences will back up to the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           269

 

 

       1        gas station/mini mart as seen on exhibit 7,

 

       2        page 7.

 

       3             The Jackson Square development that you

 

       4        recently approved makes sense.  You had a

 

       5        developer who bought property in a blighted area

 

       6        and brought a plan to you.  Bayard is a plan in

 

       7        search of a developer.

 

       8             Prosser Hallock, when selling this project

 

       9        to residents, said that they got lots of calls

 

      10        from developers looking for opportunities like

 

      11        Bayard.  That was in the heyday.  That is when

 

      12        Nocatee was taking off, when Bartram Springs and

 

      13        Bartram Park were selling residences like crazy,

 

      14        and no one came forward interested in pursuing

 

      15        this.

 

      16             I believe the Bayard Master Plan is very

 

      17        attractive to some residents, but I really

 

      18        believe it's because they're confident that it

 

      19        will never happen.  I wish that it would.  I

 

      20        wish it would make our property valuable and

 

      21        that someone would want to buy it because it has

 

      22        greater value because of this plan, but I've

 

      23        taken it to so many --

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Zievis.

 

      25             MS. ZIEVIS:  -- and I get one response, and

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           270

 

 

       1        that is, this will never happen.

 

       2             Thank you.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.

 

       4             We've got a question for you, ma'am.

 

       5             MR. JOOST:  Ms. Zievis, could you just tell

 

       6        us exactly what it is you want?

 

       7             MS. ZIEVIS:  Actually, following me is

 

       8        another speaker, which is John Zievis, and he

 

       9        can help you with that.  Is that okay?

 

      10             MR. JOOST:  Yes, ma'am.

 

      11             MS. ZIEVIS:  Thank you very much.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  John, come on down.

 

      13             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      14             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

      15             John Zievis, 1898 See Oats Drive, Atlantic

 

      16        Beach.

 

      17             I oppose the Bayard Master Plan because the

 

      18        knowledgeable people with whom I've spoken tell

 

      19        me it will never happen.

 

      20             I've had continuous calls on our property,

 

      21        but everyone disappears when referred to the

 

      22        Bayard Master Plan.  This plan obstructs

 

      23        revitalization and change.

 

      24             Regarding the service road, let's take a

 

      25        moment to think about the future of this area.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           271

 

 

       1        When 9B is completed, it will be the first exit

 

       2        off I-95 North into our city.  Vehicles

 

       3        traveling between New York -- or between Miami

 

       4        and New York and all points in between will exit

 

       5        I-95 on 9B because most travelers avoid center

 

       6        city areas.

 

       7             This will become a high commerce area and

 

       8        Philips Highway will be receiving an explosion

 

       9        of traffic here.

 

      10             Does the City want to -- does the City want

 

      11        a service road as shown on the BMP in lieu of

 

      12        widening Philips Highway?  Do you want to hide

 

      13        businesses from this traffic?

 

      14             Please refer back to the packets Mary Lou

 

      15        provided to you.  I will now address the

 

      16        property as shown on Exhibits 8 and 9.

 

      17             Hopefully, the Bayard Master Plan will not

 

      18        be adopted in its existing form.  But if it is,

 

      19        we ask that an amendment be attached to allow

 

      20        for property modifications in accordance with

 

      21        Exhibit 8, page 8, marked "new."

 

      22             The illustration marked "existing" shows

 

      23        the new -- shows the need to increase the size

 

      24        of the CCG portion, especially with the proposed

 

      25        service road which takes 50 feet across the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        front.

 

       2             The residential portion faces the back of

 

       3        the strip center and wraps around the back of a

 

       4        gas station station/mini market.  No one wants

 

       5        their home to face the back of a strip center

 

       6        and no one wants the neon lighting spillover and

 

       7        noise generated by a gas station/mini mart.

 

       8             It's obvious that the Bayard Master Plan

 

       9        does not make the best use of our land to the

 

      10        disadvantage of our city and us.

 

      11             We propose the modification as seen on

 

      12        Exhibit 8, page 8, marked "new."  This will

 

      13        allow for the extension of the CCC [sic] zoning,

 

      14        consistent with the adjacent properties.  This

 

      15        is a concession as we feel the entire property

 

      16        should be CCG.

 

      17             Residents objected to the original Bayard

 

      18        Master Plan because they don't want commercial

 

      19        or mixed use facing Targonski Street.  This

 

      20        modification respects the neighborhoods -- the

 

      21        neighbors and the neighborhood on all sides.

 

      22             We are not developers; however, we envision

 

      23        Exhibit 9 on page 9 to be the result of our

 

      24        requested modification.

 

      25             Thank you very much.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           273

 

 

       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

       2             Allen Suggs.

 

       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.

 

       5             My name is Allen Suggs, 7554 Judith Avenue,

 

       6        and I'm here to speak in favor of the Bayard

 

       7        Master Plan.

 

       8             The City of Jacksonville put out an RFP

 

       9        requesting information about how to take a

 

      10        community and turn it into a very viable

 

      11        community, not just a house here and a business

 

      12        there, but put it in proper perspective.

 

      13             Some of the things have happened in this

 

      14        community over the years -- 67 years old, lived

 

      15        here all my life, so I've see a lot of change,

 

      16        and some good, some bad.

 

      17             This master plan, it may not be perfect,

 

      18        but it's a great step in the right direction.

 

      19             The City paid $200,000 for Prosser Hallock

 

      20        to study this.  The Planning Department was in

 

      21        favor.  They were there at every turn.  Your --

 

      22        our councilman approved it and was there for

 

      23        most every meeting we had.

 

      24             Again, it's short in some areas, but it

 

      25        certainly serves the need for me, my family, my

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           274

 

 

       1        children, my grandchildren, and the rest of the

 

       2        folks who live in the neighborhood.

 

       3             I would really ask that you study it pretty

 

       4        closely before you decide to poo poo the plan.

 

       5        It's been well spoken and chewed and chewed and

 

       6        chewed, so give us some help on it.

 

       7             We appreciate your time very much.

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

       9             Mr. Williams.

 

      10             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      11             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm Tom Williams, 7530

 

      12        Severn Street, Jacksonville, Florida.

 

      13             My family has been in Bayard for about a

 

      14        hundred years.  I've worked on the steering

 

      15        committee with the Bayard Master Plan, and I'm

 

      16        just here to support it.

 

      17             Thank you.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      19             Mr. Tuten.

 

      20             (Audience member approaches the podium.)

 

      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  The mayor of Bayard.

 

      22             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Unofficial, of course.

 

      23             My name is Richard Tuten.  I reside at 7509

 

      24        Bayard Boulevard, and I have for the last

 

      25        55 years.

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

                                                           275

 

 

       1             As Mr. Suggs said, this plan was presented

 

       2        to us, and we heartily improve [sic] it --

 

       3        recommend it.

 

       4             Let me see.  Bayard, if you don't know

 

       5        where it is, it's on US-1 South.  It's at the

 

       6        intersection of Old St. Augustine Road and

 

       7        Philips Highway.  It lies approximately nine

 

       8        blocks along US-1 and three blocks deep.  It is

 

       9        zoned today, two lots, which is approximately

 

      10        250 feet, off of Philips Highway.  That is

 

      11        commercial.  The rest of the community is

 

      12        residential, and we've always liked it.

 

      13             We have -- we have liked that zoning

 

      14        because it protected us from development, and we

 

      15        feel that the Bayard Master Plan -- and we're

 

      16        very optimistic about it -- will continue to

 

      17        protect that community.  It's an old community.

 

      18        The people have lived out there forever, and we

 

      19        would just ask you to support it.

 

      20             We have -- the meetings were all, like I

 

      21        say, very supportive, and I appreciate it.

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      23             Mr. Hainline.

 

      24             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)

 

      25             MR. HAINLINE:  T.R. Hainline, 1301

 

 

 

 

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       1        Riverplace Boulevard.

 

       2             I'm here representing Davis Creek Forest,

 

       3        Inc., and Sweetwater Farms Enterprises, Inc.

 

       4        Those two entities own a couple of the largest

 

       5        vacant properties that are at the north end of

 

       6        the proposed Bayard Master Plan.  And although

 

       7        they have some question as to whether those

 

       8        properties should be included in the master

 

       9        plan, I've talked to Councilman Graham -- this

 

      10        is only the transmittal.  We're happy to work

 

      11        with Councilman Graham and the Planning

 

      12        Department to resolve those issues and are

 

      13        optimistic that we can do so.

 

      14             So I'll state for the record our question,

 

      15        but we're looking forward to working with

 

      16        Councilman Graham and the Planning Department

 

      17        between now and adoption next year.

 

      18             So thank you for your time.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.

 

      20             Seeing no further speakers, we'll close the

 

      21        public hearing.

 

      22             Planning Department.  Is that going to be

 

      23        Mr. Smith or one of you guys?

 

      24             MR. SMITH:  To the Chair, this is the first

 

      25        step, the transmittal of the land use --

 

 

 

 

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       1        proposed land use amendment, and I might just

 

       2        add that, as you heard from some of the steering

 

       3        committee members, this proposed plan is a

 

       4        community plan that was prepared in response to

 

       5        potential community change.  The plan started

 

       6        back in January of 2005.  It involved extensive

 

       7        community involvement to examine historic and

 

       8        current development trends.

 

       9             The plan -- the purpose of the study was to

 

      10        undertake a comprehensive analysis of the area,

 

      11        defining both the deficiencies and the

 

      12        opportunities and formulating recommendations

 

      13        that can be put into action, and that's what

 

      14        this first step of the land use recommendation

 

      15        is, and we'll come back next year with the

 

      16        Smart Code, the Bayard general plan overlay

 

      17        district, which we can have more discussion on.

 

      18             So we would just ask that you support this

 

      19        plan at this time.

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Smith.

 

      21             Well, I can tell you guys from -- this

 

      22        being my district, I lived this massive plan for

 

      23        the past three years, and this is something

 

      24        that -- the citizens of Bayard came to me early

 

      25        on and told me what their concern was as far as

 

 

 

 

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       1        their neighborhood.  Number one is they like the

 

       2        quaint, little neighborhood.  And I don't know

 

       3        if you guys have ever gone through Bayard, but

 

       4        most of those roads going through there can't be

 

       5        any more than 12 feet wide.  I mean, it's just

 

       6        small, little residential roads.

 

       7             Their big fear was that somebody was going

 

       8        to develop the land basically back behind them,

 

       9        and, you know, then there was just going to be

 

      10        traffic going right through the middle of their

 

      11        neighborhood.  And they came to me with -- to

 

      12        come up with a way of protecting the integrity

 

      13        of their neighborhood and the quality of life

 

      14        that they've enjoyed for years, and so we sat

 

      15        down, we -- I talked to Jeannie Fewell and

 

      16        talked her into doing this master plan, and we

 

      17        put together a steering committee, and Prosser

 

      18        Hallock was the group that helped facilitate

 

      19        this.  And after many, many, many town meetings

 

      20        and discussions back and forth and -- if you

 

      21        guys were here, I could tell you guys the

 

      22        history of -- this is where the whole site plan

 

      23        review thing came from as well.

 

      24             But this has been a very interesting thing,

 

      25        and we finally got to a point where we have

 

 

 

 

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       1        something that the community, for the most part,

 

       2        is happy with.

 

       3             There's a large section on the top side, if

 

       4        you can see on this Exhibit 3, where you have

 

       5        the -- it looks like a pink square at the top.

 

       6        That's all one owner, and he's got some issues

 

       7        we've got to work out there.  And there was a

 

       8        debate when we first put it in, if he's going to

 

       9        be part of the master plan or not.  The other

 

      10        side of him is going to be where the proposed

 

      11        power plant is.  So that's the issue that we've

 

      12        got to work out.  But other than that, I approve

 

      13        it and want to move forward.

 

      14             Mr. Joost.

 

      15             MR. JOOST:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

 

      16             And I too agree with the overall concept,

 

      17        and eventually -- I mean, once 9B comes in,

 

      18        they're not going to basically be able to build

 

      19        behind it anyway.

 

      20             Just a couple of questions, I guess,

 

      21        through the Planning Department.  I'm curious,

 

      22        why are you putting in a service road that's

 

      23        only, you know, ten blocks long on Philips

 

      24        Highway?

 

      25             I mean, just on the face of it, to me, it

 

 

 

 

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       1        doesn't make a lot of sense.  I mean, why

 

       2        wouldn't you be putting in turn lanes such as

 

       3        they have on San Jose Boulevard?

 

       4             MR. SMITH:  Through the Chair to Councilman

 

       5        Joost.  That's a good question, and the answer

 

       6        is that we don't want the traffic speeding

 

       7        through Bayard.  We want to slow it down so

 

       8        we'll have an opportunity to visit some of the

 

       9        shops, the future shops in there.

 

      10             We have presented the plan to the FDOT, and

 

      11        they have encouraged and studied this

 

      12        alternative roadway concept that would help to

 

      13        minimize the impacts to Bayard.  The speed limit

 

      14        along that section of Philips Highway is at

 

      15        least --

 

      16             MR. JOOST:  Forty-five.

 

      17             MR. SMITH:  -- forty-five, but as people

 

      18        actually drive -- the actual driving speed, I'm

 

      19        sure, is much higher than that.

 

      20             So the idea is to get people to slow down

 

      21        so they can pull into the Bayard community and

 

      22        make that sort of a destination area so that

 

      23        they recognize that they're entering, you know,

 

      24        sort of a district, a historic area.

 

      25             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Well, just as a retail,

 

 

 

 

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       1        it seems to me the harder you make it to get in

 

       2        and out of, the less likely -- the less places

 

       3        of ingress and egress you have for retail and

 

       4        the harder -- therefore the harder it is to get

 

       5        in and out, and that affects the value of that

 

       6        retail property.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I can tell you just,

 

       8        once again, of living this, part of the concern

 

       9        was that people -- because as you come off of 9B

 

      10        here and if you're also heading north on US-1,

 

      11        people going -- because US-1, just prior to

 

      12        Bayard, is 55, and so you're slowing down --

 

      13             MR. JOOST:  It's actually 65.

 

      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  So you start to slow down at

 

      15        this area.  If you want more like the feel --

 

      16        most of you have all driven into San Marco where

 

      17        you can drive down the road, but as you get into

 

      18        San Marco, the little shopping area, you've got

 

      19        a lot of calming features in there to calm the

 

      20        traffic down so people aren't flying by there

 

      21        and it's more of a safe place for people to pull

 

      22        off and, you know, the widened sidewalks and

 

      23        what have you to get in there and to shop.

 

      24             MR. JOOST:  Yeah, I hear you, but also in

 

      25        San Marco, if I'm going south on Philips Highway

 

 

 

 

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       1        and now I want to go to the shop over here

 

       2        (indicating), I've got to turn in and make a

 

       3        U-turn down to this service road to get to it as

 

       4        opposed to most places where you just put a

 

       5        cut-through in the median and have a left-hand

 

       6        turn lane.

 

       7             MR. SMITH:  Mr. Chair -- through the Chair,

 

       8        if I may also comment that the FDOT is going to

 

       9        close some of those existing right-of-ways now,

 

      10        so there's not going to be the same

 

      11        opportunities for ingress and egress to Bayard

 

      12        as you see on this plan.

 

      13             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And second, I guess,

 

      14        going back to this particular property owner, I

 

      15        have great -- personally, me, I mean, I go

 

      16        through this area all the time.  I would say

 

      17        probably at least once a week I go down there.

 

      18             This one property owner, you're taking --

 

      19        you're going to take 50 foot of their property

 

      20        when we do build this service road and basically

 

      21        render that CCG-1 -- it's going to be so small.

 

      22        To me, it almost renders it -- there's not going

 

      23        to be a market for it.

 

      24             Does the Planning Department have a comment

 

      25        on that?

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. SMITH:  Through the Chair, this is a

 

       2        proposed -- proposed FDOT 50-foot right-of-way

 

       3        taking.  So when and where that happens, it's

 

       4        not really clear at this time.  We think that

 

       5        there is --

 

       6             MR. JOOST:  I mean, nobody's going to buy

 

       7        that piece of property knowing that 50 feet is

 

       8        on the drawing board that's going to be taken

 

       9        away, and then you're just left with such a

 

      10        small parcel of CCG-1.  And if you look at the

 

      11        rest of the map, there are other CCG-1

 

      12        properties that come further or more of a depth

 

      13        off of Philips Highway, and what they're asking

 

      14        is not even to go all the way to -- Targonski,

 

      15        is that how you pronounce it?

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Targonski.

 

      17             MR. JOOST:  Targonski Road.

 

      18             I mean, it seems very reasonable to me -- a

 

      19        very reasonable compromise to give them this

 

      20        extra piece of CCG-1, and where they're

 

      21        leaving -- they're not even asking for the whole

 

      22        property to be zoned as one piece, and they're

 

      23        still willing to take the end piece and leave

 

      24        that LDR so it won't affect the view of the

 

      25        other residents.

 

 

 

 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I can answer --

 

       2             MR. JOOST:  Well, I guess I'll ask the

 

       3        Planning Department.  I mean, isn't that still

 

       4        within the overall -- within the overall

 

       5        guidelines of what the master plan calls for?

 

       6             MR. SMITH:  Well, the guidelines of the

 

       7        master plan for that particular parcel is --

 

       8        it's currently split.  It's in a T-4 and T-5

 

       9        transect zone.  As it is with the current land

 

      10        use, it's split with CGC and LDR.  So by

 

      11        changing it to MU, that certainly gives them

 

      12        more flexibility -- potential flexibility with

 

      13        their property.  And then as the Bayard

 

      14        Smart Code regulating plan comes along, then,

 

      15        you know, that's something to discuss, but

 

      16        again, this is -- this is a plan that the Bayard

 

      17        community approved.  They had -- they looked at

 

      18        this particular commercial area and where they

 

      19        wanted that -- to draw that commercial line, and

 

      20        that's -- that's kind of -- that's why it's

 

      21        where it's at, because that's what the steering

 

      22        committee -- that was their resolve, that -- we

 

      23        discussed this particular location of the

 

      24        transect zone, and this is what they came up

 

      25        with.

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. JOOST:  All right.  Well, for

 

       2        discussion, I'll make a move to have an

 

       3        amendment with this piece of legislation to show

 

       4        the drawing on page 8.

 

       5             MS. ELLER:  Mr. Chairman.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.

 

       7             MS. ELLER:  I just want to clarify.

 

       8             The proposal 2008-886 is a proposal to

 

       9        change the land use for the entire Bayard area

 

      10        to MU, and within that MU land use category all

 

      11        the different uses would be permitted, and then

 

      12        the Bayard Smart Code that would be introduced

 

      13        at the adoption phase would have the specific

 

      14        delineation between all of those different uses

 

      15        within MU.  So the line to where commercial

 

      16        would go, how far back commercial would go, the

 

      17        split between the commercial and residential

 

      18        use, all of that is in the Bayard Smart Code and

 

      19        on the map itself in the Smart Code.

 

      20             This proposal is to change everything in

 

      21        there to the multiuse category, which would then

 

      22        give this committee all of the opportunity to

 

      23        amend and move the lines on that Smart Code map

 

      24        at the adoption phase.

 

      25             So I just wanted to clarify that.

 

 

 

 

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       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes, sir.

 

       2             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  If I can also add,

 

       3        basically what the MU is adding is -- or

 

       4        changing it to MU, what we're looking at is

 

       5        689 single-family dwelling units, 789

 

       6        multifamily dwelling units, just a little bit

 

       7        over 326,000 square feet of general commercial

 

       8        uses, and 382,000 square feet of office and

 

       9        industrial -- institutional uses, excuse me.

 

      10             But that's within that entire MU.  Later

 

      11        on, when this is adopted and we adopt the master

 

      12        plan and the PUD that will implement it, that's

 

      13        where all of the lines would be adjusted.  But

 

      14        at this point, we're just saying this is the

 

      15        densities and intensities we're allowing in this

 

      16        general area.

 

      17             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Well, I guess what my

 

      18        concern is going to be is later on when we do

 

      19        get to that point, you're going to hold this map

 

      20        up and say, well, it doesn't conform to the map

 

      21        you-all approved earlier.

 

      22             MS. ELLER:  That map --

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's not our map.  That's

 

      24        Ms. Zievis' map.

 

      25             MR. JOOST:  Okay.

 

 

 

 

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       1             MS. ELLER:  The map that's being proposed

 

       2        now is just the entire 435.9-acre area, all of

 

       3        the existing land uses being changed to the

 

       4        multiuse.  And it does not, at this point, draw

 

       5        any lines or make any indication as to how far

 

       6        back commercial will go.  All it's doing is

 

       7        taking every single parcel in that area and

 

       8        changing the letters on the land use map from

 

       9        its existing land use category to MU, and so

 

      10        then the --

 

      11             The MU, as you-all know, is a general

 

      12        multiuse land use designation, and then the

 

      13        delineation of what particular uses will be on

 

      14        any MU property will be further defined by the

 

      15        Smart Code and the specific uses --

 

      16             MR. JOOST:  In other words, live to fight

 

      17        another day.

 

      18             Okay.  Fine.  No amendment offered.

 

      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any other discussion?

 

      20             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      21             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.

 

      22             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      24        seconded.

 

      25             Please open the ballot.

 

 

 

 

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       1             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

       2             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

       3             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       6             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       7             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       9        the vote.

 

      10             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've

 

      12        approved -886.

 

      13             -887.  We'll open public hearing.

 

      14             Seeing no speakers, close the public

 

      15        hearing.

 

      16             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.

 

      17             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      19        seconded.

 

      20             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      21             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      23        ballot.

 

      24             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      25             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

       3             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       4             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       5             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       7        the vote

 

       8             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

      10        approved -887.

 

      11             -888.  Open the public hearing.

 

      12             Seeing no speakers, we'll close the public

 

      13        hearing.

 

      14             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.

 

      15             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      17        seconded.

 

      18             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      19             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      21        ballot.

 

      22             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      23             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      24             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      25             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

 

 

 

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       1             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

       2             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

       3             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

       5        the vote.

 

       6             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       8        approved -888.

 

       9             -889.  Open and close the public hearing.

 

      10             MR. JOOST:  Move it.

 

      11             MR. CROFTS:  We deferred it earlier.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's right.  We have taken

 

      13        care of that one.

 

      14             -890 is deferred.  -891 is deferred.  -892

 

      15        is deferred.  -893 is deferred.

 

      16             We already did -909.

 

      17             -910.  We'll open the public hearing.

 

      18             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that

 

      19        public hearing and take no further action.

 

      20             -919.  We will -- no, no public hearing.

 

      21        There's an amendment.

 

      22             MR. JOOST:  Move the amendment.

 

      23             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment's been moved

 

      25        and seconded.

 

 

 

 

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       1             Can we hear the amendment, please.

 

       2             MS. ELLER:  Yes.

 

       3             The amendment attaches the map of the new

 

       4        area, attaches a legal description, and

 

       5        clarifies that the City Council is acting as the

 

       6        CRA for the purpose of expanding the boundaries

 

       7        but indicates that the JEDC shall resume all

 

       8        responsibilities and duties of the CRA upon the

 

       9        enactment of this expanded boundary.

 

      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'll let you guys know, I

 

      11        have a little bit of concern.  I spoke to

 

      12        counsel about this earlier.

 

      13             The whole purpose -- and I've lived with

 

      14        CRAs because Jax Beach has got two CRAs that

 

      15        we've had for some 20 years or so.

 

      16             But the whole purpose of CRAs is to

 

      17        insulate the council from any -- from

 

      18        everything.  Basically, you put together your

 

      19        CRA and you let them -- the Community

 

      20        Redevelopment Agency, let them handle everything

 

      21        that goes on inside that CRA.  And this is

 

      22        something that the JEDC should be handling, not

 

      23        us.

 

      24             Now, I do understand the councilmember

 

      25        doesn't want to wait for the JEDC to deal with

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        this.  They want to move forward, so they're

 

       2        going to do this specifically just for this one

 

       3        piece, and my concern was, how does the council

 

       4        get back from underneath this?  Because once

 

       5        we've stepped into the role of the CRA, I want

 

       6        to make sure that it's very easy for us to step

 

       7        back out of that role because, you know, once

 

       8        again, the beauty of having the CRA is so you

 

       9        don't have the council, this elected body, tied

 

      10        to it.

 

      11             MS. ELLER:  To the chairman, the proposed

 

      12        language in the amendment would read, "In

 

      13        approving and adopting this modified plan, the

 

      14        City Council declares itself to be acting as the

 

      15        agency and the governing body as those terms are

 

      16        defined in the Community Redevelopment Act.

 

      17             "Upon this ordinance becoming law, the JEDC

 

      18        shall resume all responsibilities and duties as

 

      19        the city's Community Redevelopment Agency."

 

      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Now, once we pass this and

 

      21        then we step back away from it, what's to stop

 

      22        the JEDC, who is now the CRA, from reverting

 

      23        what we just did?

 

      24             MS. ELLER:  To the Chair and the committee,

 

      25        the boundary changes always have to be approved

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        by the governing body.  So even if the JEDC

 

       2        wanted to make changes to the boundaries, they

 

       3        would, as the CRA, still have to propose those

 

       4        to you-all on -- for a vote up or down.

 

       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Now, for this CRA, when

 

       6        funds are, I guess, gathered and spent in that

 

       7        area, those funds also have to be approved by

 

       8        this body or is that all just done through the

 

       9        CRA, which would be the JEDC?

 

      10             MS. ELLER:  I believe, at this point, it's

 

      11        all done through the CRA because there is the

 

      12        trust fund that is established, and the purposes

 

      13        of collecting and spending the money is actually

 

      14        defined in the initial two different findings of

 

      15        necessity, one for the original Soutel/Moncrief

 

      16        area and one for this additional land.

 

      17             Additionally, there was the Soutel/Moncrief

 

      18        Corridor Study for this additional land that

 

      19        outlines the purposes and the plan for that

 

      20        area.

 

      21             So it's my understanding that it's

 

      22        collected and placed into the trust fund.  There

 

      23        may be an additional appropriation at some point

 

      24        in the future.  I do know that the tax collector

 

      25        is -- establishes the tax assessment through the

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        regular CRA process to collect on those lands.

 

       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  That's all I had.

 

       3             Seeing no other concerns, all in favor of

 

       4        the amendment signify by saying aye.

 

       5             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.

 

       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.

 

       7             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved

 

       9        the amendment.

 

      10             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as amended.

 

      11             MR. HOLT:  Second.

 

      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and

 

      13        seconded as amended.

 

      14             Any discussion on the bill?

 

      15             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)

 

      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the

 

      17        ballot.

 

      18             (Committee ballot opened.)

 

      19             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)

 

      20             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)

 

      21             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)

 

      22             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)

 

      23             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)

 

      24             (Committee ballot closed.)

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        the vote

 

       2             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.

 

       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have

 

       4        approved -919.

 

       5             Top of page 21.  -929, -930, -931, -933,

 

       6        -934, and -935 are all second and rereferred.

 

       7             -936, -937, -969, -970, and -971 are all

 

       8        second and referred.

 

       9             Top of page 23.  -972, -973, -974, and -975

 

      10        all are second and rereferred.

 

      11             That's pretty much all I've got for the

 

      12        agenda.

 

      13             Mr. Joost.

 

      14             MR. JOOST:  One quick question to legal.

 

      15             How come there aren't -- I was curious, the

 

      16        one guy said they missed the first readings.  I

 

      17        don't see any first readings on here, just

 

      18        second readings.

 

      19             I mean, normally, don't we -- don't all the

 

      20        other committees -- and just as a process, we

 

      21        have first readings and second readings and then

 

      22        the final vote?

 

      23             MS. ELLER:  Items 81 through 95 are

 

      24        actually on first reading, referred to you from

 

      25        council, and the read second rerefer is the

 

 

 

 

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       1        committee's recommendation for the council to

 

       2        read a second time and rerefer.  So items 81

 

       3        through 95 were introduced a week ago and

 

       4        then --

 

       5             MR. JOOST:  That's my question because

 

       6        normally on the full council agenda you have all

 

       7        first readings, so how does -- but if it's only

 

       8        been introduced a week ago, you're going into

 

       9        second reading or am I not reading that right?

 

      10             MS. ELLER:  I understand where you're

 

      11        coming from.  It's actually these items, the

 

      12        committee is recommending that they be read for

 

      13        a second time, so this is not the second time

 

      14        items 81 through 96 have been in your committee.

 

      15             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  We need a sidebar.

 

      16             Thank you.

 

      17             MS. ELLER:  Okay.

 

      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Eller.

 

      19             MS. ELLER:  It may be that with land --

 

      20        with rezonings, they actually get deferred one

 

      21        cycle at LUZ, so there's an extra week that's

 

      22        built in there for rezonings, and that sometimes

 

      23        is confusing because they get deferred one time

 

      24        at the committee.

 

      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing nothing else to come

 

 

 

 

           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1        before us, we're adjourned.

 

       2             (The above proceedings were adjourned at

 

       3        10:03 p.m.)

 

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           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203


 

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       1                  C E R T I F I C A T E

 

       2

 

       3   STATE OF FLORIDA:

 

       4   COUNTY OF DUVAL :

 

       5

 

       6             I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was

 

       7   authorized to and did stenographically report the

 

       8   foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a

 

       9   true and complete record of my stenographic notes.

 

      10             Dated this 9th day of November, 2008.

 

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      14                                 Diane M. Tropia

 

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           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203