1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, October 21,
7 2008, commencing at 5:02 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 ART GRAHAM, Chair.
RICHARD CLARK, Committee Member.
14 JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
RAY HOLT, Committee Member.
15 DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
16
ALSO PRESENT:
17
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
18 SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
19 JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.
20 MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
21
- - -
22
23
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 October 21, 2008 5:02 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everyone.
5 Let the record show it is Tuesday,
6 October 21st. I have 5:02, and we are about
7 ready to get started.
8 If we can start over here on the right with
9 Mr. Crofts, let's introduce ourselves.
10 MR. CROFTS: John Crofts, deputy director
11 of Planning and Development.
12 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
13 Development.
14 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
15 Development.
16 MS. ELLER: Shannon Eller, Office of
17 General Counsel.
18 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, Council
19 District 4.
20 DR. GAFFNEY: Councilman Gaffney,
21 District 7.
22 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt, District 11.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Art Graham, District 13.
24 MR. CLARK: Richard Clark, District 3.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's get started.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 Top of page 2. 2005-1228 is deferred.
2 2006-24 is deferred. 2006-220 is deferred.
3 Top of page 3. 2006-658 is deferred.
4 2007-581 is deferred.
5 2007-1086, we have a public hearing.
6 We'll open that public hearing. We have no
7 speakers, so we'll continue that public hearing
8 and take no further action.
9 Top of page 4. 2007-1350 is deferred.
10 2008-236 is deferred.
11 2008-314.
12 MR. CLARK: Move to withdraw.
13 MR. HOLT: Second.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
15 to withdraw.
16 Any discussion on the withdrawal?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
19 ballot.
20 (Committee ballot opened.)
21 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
23 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 (Committee ballot closed.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
3 the vote.
4 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
6 withdrawn 2008-314.
7 That was a bill that we withdrew before and
8 we sent it back, and we're still withdrawing it
9 and we're not returning fees.
10 Okay. Top of page 5. 2008-413 is
11 deferred. -414 is deferred. -415 is deferred.
12 Top of page 6. -416, -17, and -18 are all
13 deferred.
14 Top of page 7. 2008-517. We will open
15 that public hearing.
16 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
17 public hearing and take no further action.
18 -541, -542, -545 are all deferred.
19 Top of page 8. -546, -549, -550, -552 are
20 all deferred.
21 Top of page 9. -562. We will open that
22 public hearing.
23 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
24 public hearing and take no further action.
25 -565. We will open that public hearing.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
2 public hearing and take no further action.
3 -567. We will open that public hearing.
4 Seeing no speakers, we will close that
5 public hearing.
6 MR. HOLT: Move the amendment.
7 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
9 and seconded.
10 Can we hear what the amendment says?
11 MR. CROFTS: Yes, sir.
12 The amendment is -- includes the following
13 conditions:
14 Number 1, "The development shall be subject
15 to the original legal description dated April
16 25th, 2008."
17 Number 2, "The development shall be subject
18 to the revised written description dated
19 September 26th, 2008."
20 Number 3, "The development shall be subject
21 to the revised site plan dated September 26th,
22 2008."
23 Number 4, "The development shall be subject
24 to the review and approval of the Development
25 Services memorandum dated October 7th, 2008, or
Diane M. Tropia,
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1 as otherwise approved by the Planning and
2 Development Department."
3 That concludes the amendment.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Is the applicant here?
5 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Is the applicant not here?
7 Okay. What do we do if the applicant is
8 not here? Do we just assume that they're fine
9 with the amendments?
10 MR. KELLY: To the Chair, the applicant
11 wasn't present at Planning Commission. We
12 recommended moving it forward at Planning
13 Commission, but at this point, I'm a little
14 hesitant given he hasn't consented.
15 We will try to be sure that he is here at
16 the next LUZ hearing. I don't understand why
17 he's not present.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: So your wish is just to
19 reopen the public hearing and continue?
20 MR. KELLY: That would be -- yeah, my
21 advice, at this point, given that he hasn't
22 consented fully to the conditions. And if he
23 has an issue with it at the next LUZ, then it
24 could be potentially remanded back to the
25 Planning Commission to recontemplate.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Gaffney, do you have any
2 problems with continuing this?
3 DR. GAFFNEY: No.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
5 MS. ELLER: (Shakes head.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Then we will reopen the
7 public hearing and we'll continue it -- I guess
8 we have to have somebody pull back their
9 amendment because we moved and seconded the
10 amendment.
11 MR. CLARK: So moved.
12 MR. HOLT: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So now we pulled back
14 the amendment, we reopened the public hearing.
15 We'll continue and take no further action
16 on -567.
17 -588 is an appeal. We'll take that up at
18 the end.
19 -713. We will open that public hearing.
20 Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public
21 hearing.
22 MR. CLARK: Move the amendment.
23 MR. HOLT: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
25 and seconded.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 Can we hear that one -- wait. Before we
2 listen to that.
3 Is this applicant here?
4 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Then we will reopen
6 that public hearing and we'll continue that one,
7 take no further action.
8 How does that sound?
9 Were these people at the Planning
10 Commission?
11 MR. CROFTS: Yes.
12 MR. KELLY: Yes, they were there.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: They were there, and we
14 haven't made any changes since Planning
15 Commission?
16 MR. KELLY: There were no changes to the
17 conditions at Planning Commission. They were
18 present and agreed to all the conditions.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: So are we fine with that,
20 Ms. Eller?
21 MS. ELLER: Yes. I think that's safe to
22 move forward, especially since there's no change
23 to what they had agreed to already on the
24 record, correct, guys?
25 MR. KELLY: Yes.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MS. ELLER: Okay.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Then we will reclose
3 the public hearing, and let's hear the
4 amendment.
5 MR. CROFTS: The amendment is as follows:
6 Condition number 1, "The development shall
7 be subject to the original legal description
8 dated May 13, 2008."
9 Number 2, "The development shall be subject
10 to the original written description dated
11 May 13th, 2008."
12 Number 3, "The development shall be subject
13 to the original site plan dated May 13th, 2008."
14 Number 4, "The development shall be subject
15 to the review and approval of the Development
16 Services memorandum dated August 27th, 2008, or
17 as otherwise approved by the Florida Department
18 of Transportation and the Planning and
19 Development Department."
20 Number 5, "The property shall be subject to
21 compliance with all provisions of the zoning
22 code, including Section 656, Part 6, parking;
23 and Section 656, Part 12, landscape and tree
24 protection; and off-site noise limitations for
25 the industrial light zoning category."
Diane M.
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1 Number 6, "The uses on the property shall
2 be screened from the public right-of-way and
3 screening fences shall be subject to the review
4 and approval of the Planning and Development
5 Department in regard to quality of materials and
6 their workmanship."
7 Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Any discussion on the
9 amendment?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
12 say aye.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
17 the amendment.
18 MR. CLARK: Move the bill as amended.
19 MR. HOLT: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
21 seconded as amended.
22 Any further discussion on the bill?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
25 ballot.
Diane M.
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1 (Committee ballot opened.)
2 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
4 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
7 (Committee ballot closed.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
9 the vote.
10 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
12 approved 2008-713.
13 Top of page 10. 2008-716. We'll open that
14 public hearing.
15 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
16 public hearing and take no further action.
17 2008-771.
18 MR. CLARK: Move to withdraw.
19 MR. HOLT: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
21 to withdraw.
22 Any discussion on the withdrawal?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
25 ballot.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 (Committee ballot opened.)
2 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
4 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
7 (Committee ballot closed.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
9 the vote.
10 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
12 withdrawn 2008-771.
13 2008-772.
14 MR. CLARK: Move to withdraw.
15 MR. HOLT: Second.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
17 to withdraw.
18 Any discussion on the withdrawal?
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
21 ballot.
22 (Committee ballot opened.)
23 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 (Committee ballot closed.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
5 the vote.
6 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
8 withdrawn 2008-772.
9 2008-776. We'll open that public hearing.
10 We have
11 (Ms. Johnston approaches the podium.)
12 MS. JOHNSTON: Hi.
13
14 on behalf of the applicant.
15 We are familiar with the conditions and are
16 agreeable, and I'll stand by for questions.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: You are a wonderful person.
18 Seeing no further speakers, we'll close the
19 public hearing.
20 MR. CLARK: Move the amendment.
21 MR. HOLT: Second.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
23 and seconded.
24 I think she agreed to the amendments. Do
25 we have to read them?
Diane M.
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1 MS. ELLER: You're okay.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
3 seconded.
4 Any further discussion with the
5 amendments?
6 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
8 say aye.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
13 approved the amendment.
14 MR. CLARK: Move the bill as amended.
15 MR. HOLT: Second.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
17 seconded as amended.
18 Any discussion on the bill as amended?
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
21 ballot.
22 (Committee ballot opened.)
23 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 (Committee ballot closed.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
5 the vote.
6 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
8 approved 2008-776 as amended.
9 Thank you, Ms. Johnston.
10 2008-778. We will open the public hearing,
11 and we will talk to Ms. Johnston once again.
12 MS. JOHNSTON:
13 Riverplace Boulevard, on behalf of the
14 applicant.
15 This applicant is also aware of the
16 conditions and is agreeable to the conditions as
17 well, so we'll stand by for questions.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
19 We'll close that public hearing.
20 We have an amendment.
21 MR. CLARK: Move the amendment.
22 MR. HOLT: Second.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
24 and seconded.
25 Any discussion on the amendment?
Diane M.
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
7 the amendment.
8 MR. CLARK: Move the bill as amended.
9 MR. HOLT: Second.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's [sic] been
11 moved and seconded as amended.
12 Any discussion on the bill?
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
15 ballot.
16 (Committee ballot opened.)
17 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
19 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
22 (Committee ballot closed.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
24 the vote.
25 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
2 approved 2008-778 as amended.
3 MS. JOHNSTON: Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Johnston.
5 2008-784. We'll open the public hearing.
6 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
7 public hearing and take no further action.
8 2008-799. We will open that public
9 hearing.
10 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
11 public hearing and take no further action.
12 2008-800. We'll open the public hearing.
13 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Charles Mann.
15 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, members of the
16 committee, Charles
Mann,
17 representing the landowner.
18 I'll stand by for questions or make a brief
19 presentation.
20 This is an existing -- this is -- there is
21 a Goodwill store at the intersection of
23 simply moving
across to
24 They're in rental property now. They're going
25 to be building their own building on the site
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 that is before you.
2 I believe we've addressed all the questions
3 of the community and would ask for your support.
4 Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you familiar with the
6 amendment?
7 MR. MANN: I would like to hear them, sir.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure enough.
9 All right. We'll close the public hearing.
10 Move the amendment.
11 MR. CLARK: Move the amendment.
12 MR. HOLT: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
14 and seconded.
15 Mr. Crofts, can we hear the amendment,
16 please.
17 MR. CROFTS: Yes, sir. The amendment is as
18 follows:
19 Number 1, "The developer shall be subject
20 to the original legal description dated August
21 19th, 2008."
22 Number 2, "The developer shall be subject
23 to the original site plan dated August 19th,
24 2008."
25 Number 3, "The developer shall be subject
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 to the original written description dated August
2 19th, 2008."
3 Number 4, "Both the lighting and landscape
4 plan shall be provided at the time of the PUD
5 verification for review and approval by the
6 Planning and Development Department."
7 That's it.
8 MR. MANN: Those are fine, sir. We
9 certainly accept them.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: That sounds fantastic,
11 Mr. Mann. Thank you.
12 All in favor of the amendment.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
17 the amendment.
18 MR. CLARK: Move the bill as amended.
19 MR. HOLT: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's [sic] been
21 moved and seconded as amended.
22 Any further discussion on the bill?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
25 ballot.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 (Committee ballot opened.)
2 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
4 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
7 (Committee ballot closed.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
9 the vote.
10 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
12 approved 2008-800 as amended.
13 MR. MANN: Thank you very much.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
15 Top of page 12. 2008-801. We'll open that
16 public hearing.
17 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
18 public hearing and take no further action.
19 -802. We will open that public hearing.
20 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Charles Mann.
22 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, members of the
23 committee, Charles
Mann,
24 representing the
Diocese of
25 This is an early learning center. It is
Diane M.
Tropia,
21
1 currently located on
2 moved. The new center will be built over on
4 intersection
of
5 Expressway and Larkin Road and
6 these -- by the fact that the new center will
7 have its own entryway. It should be a benefit
8 to the neighborhood as far as keeping traffic
9 out of the neighborhood. We'd ask that you
10 support it.
11 Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
13 Seeing no further speakers, we'll close
14 that public hearing.
15 MR. CLARK: Move the bill.
16 MR. HOLT: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
18 seconded.
19 Any discussion on the bill?
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
22 ballot.
23 (Committee ballot opened.)
24 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
4 (Committee ballot closed.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
6 the vote.
7 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
9 approved 2008-802.
10 2008-803. We --
11 MR. MANN: Thank you very much.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: You're welcome, Mr. Mann.
13 Open the public hearing.
14 Any speakers?
15 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no speakers, we'll
17 close that public hearing.
18 We have to make an amendment to grant the
19 waiver or to deny the waiver. I guess -- let's
20 go to the Planning Department.
21 Talk to us about this.
22 MR. KELLY: Certainly.
23 Through the Chair to the committee,
24 ordinance 2008-803 is a waiver of road frontage
25 for property located at
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1 They have an improved easement out to that
2 road through another piece of property. This is
3 for a day care facility.
4 We do have a condition that's tied to our
5 recommendation of approval regarding 911 --
6 well, at least addressing and communicating that
7 the business or establishment is located down
8 that improved access easement.
9 So we are supportive of it. I haven't
10 heard any comment on the condition. I would
11 assume that this would be a reasonable condition
12 for the applicant to accept in order to -- in
13 order to have it granted, but I can't speak
14 directly for the applicant.
15 But we find that it is meeting the criteria
16 and definition of a waiver and recommending
17 approval subject to the condition in your staff
18 report.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. One more time,
20 summarize what that condition is.
21 MR. KELLY: The condition reads that, "One
22 off-site sign, similar to a directional sign,
23 will be allowed for the proposed use, not
24 exceeding 5 feet in height and 5 square feet in
25 area along
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 identification purposes. This is not intended
2 to be used for advertising or business
3 exposure," merely a way to get addressing there
4 because otherwise they would be having
5 essentially an off-site sign, but we're
6 requiring it for health, safety and welfare
7 reasons other than what would typically be
8 allowed.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Is the applicant here?
10 MR. KELLY: No.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I don't have a problem
12 moving forward with this. If the applicant is
13 not fine with this, I guess he's got to
14 reapply? Is that the way it works?
15 MR. KELLY: Yeah.
16 With the condition -- again, the staff
17 report was -- I'll double-check the file, but we
18 always send the staff report to the applicants
19 and their agents, so I would feel comfortable
20 moving forward. It's reasonable.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: I mean, it seems like a
22 reasonable request. And I guess if he wants to
23 deny his waiver of road frontage, then I guess
24 he can do that.
25 Okay. Committee, we either move to grant
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 or move to deny.
2 MR. HOLT: Move to grant the waiver.
3 MR. CLARK: Second.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
5 to grant the waiver.
6 Any discussion on the amendment?
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
9 signify by saying aye.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
14 amended to grant the waiver.
15 Is someone going to move the bill?
16 MR. CLARK: Move the bill.
17 MR. HOLT: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
19 seconded as amended.
20 Any discussion on the bill?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
23 ballot.
24 (Committee ballot opened.)
25 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
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1 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
2 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
5 (Committee ballot closed.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
7 the vote.
8 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
10 approved 2008-803.
11 2008-833 is deferred. -840 is deferred.
12 -841, -842 are deferred.
13 -852, -853, -854, -855 are all second and
14 rereferred.
15 -857, -858, -859, -860, -861, -862 are all
16 second and rereferred.
17 -863, -864, -865, -866, -867, -868 are
18 second and rereferred.
19 -869, -870, -871, -872, -873, -874 are all
20 second and rereferred.
21 -875, -876, -877, -878 -879 are second and
22 rereferred.
23 -880, -81, -82, -83, -84 are second and
24 rereferred.
25 -85, -86, -87, -88, -89 are second and
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Tropia,
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1 rereferred.
2 Top of page 20. 2008-890, -91, -92, -93,
3 and -909 are all second and rereferred.
4 Top of page 21. 2008-910, -919, -922 and
5 -923 are all second and rereferred.
6 That all being said, committee members, we
7 need to turn back to page 9, towards the bottom
8 of the page, 2008-588.
9 We have an appeal, so we will -- before we
10 open the public hearing, what we need to do is
11 we need to hear from our Planning Department on
12 where we are, and then we'll give the applicant
13 time to come up and present his case, and then
14 the people that want to speak against it can
15 speak against it, and then we'll close the
16 public hearing and we'll decide.
17 Planning Department.
18 MR. McEACHIN: Joel McEachin with the
19 Planning and Development Department.
20 This application was for a total window
21 replacement on a two-story masonry apartment
22 building in the
23 district. The building was built in 1950 and
24 had the old steel casement style windows, which
25 many times are -- they deteriorate to the point
Diane M.
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28
1 of being inoperable, and also it's very
2 difficult to find individuals that will actually
3 restore these windows.
4 So the applicant proposed to use a
5 sash-style replacement window, a vinyl window,
6 that, according to the distributor of this
7 particular product, they could replicate the
8 pane pattern of the old casement windows so that
9 the visual appearance would be the same, but the
10 windows would operate differently.
11 The Planning and Development Department
12 accepted that request. We recommended to the
13 commission that they approve it. We thought it
14 was a reasonable solution to a very difficult
15 situation and -- but with a condition that they
16 were going to replicate the pane pattern as it
17 exists on the original windows and other
18 standard window conditions.
19 Why we're here today is -- the applicant
20 communicated to our office -- I'm not sure who
21 they talked to -- and asked whether this item
22 was approved by the commission, because what the
23 commission had done is the commission had
24 approved it, but with different conditions.
25 Their condition was, instead of using sash
Diane M.
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29
1 windows, they approved it to use what's called
2 horizontal sliders. Horizontal sliders can --
3 are easier to replicate an odd number of panes,
4 which you have in this situation. I think you
5 have four across and then five down.
6 Well, the applicant called the -- our
7 office -- again, I'm not sure who she spoke
8 to -- asked what the result was because she was
9 not in attendance at the meeting. The -- she
10 was informed that it was approved, and there was
11 an assumption made that that approval was our --
12 the conditions that we gave the commission.
13 So without getting the final order yet, the
14 windows were ordered and were installed. And,
15 of course, they were out of compliance with what
16 the commission's action was, and they were
17 somewhat also contrary to what we approved
18 because they wound up putting in sash-style
19 windows that have six across and four down, so
20 it didn't exactly replicate that design
21 pattern.
22 So that's the reason we're here. And the
23 applicant is here, and I'll be happy to answer
24 any questions at this point.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Joel.
Diane M.
Tropia,
30
1 Does anybody have any questions of Joel
2 before we go into the public hearing?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. That being the case,
5 we'll open the public hearing.
6 (Mr. Heekin approaches the podium.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Heekin.
8 MR. HEEKIN: Mr. Chairman, members of the
9 committee, Rob Heekin, Jr., law firm of
10 Stutsman, Thames & Markey, 50 North Laura
11 Street,
12 I'm here with the property owner, Andrea
13 Simpson. And, unfortunately, waiting on our
14 window expert, John Wells, of Lowcountry
15 Windows.
16 I'll try to be brief and within the time
17 I'm allowed, and hopefully Mr. Wells will show
18 up in that time.
19 Very briefly, Mr. McEachin was correct in
20 his recitation of the events. My client,
21 unfortunately, has been rehabbing a number of
22 buildings in the
23 I've got some photos that are on the way
24 with Mr. Wells to give you an understanding of
25 what we're talking about here, but it's a
Diane M.
Tropia,
31
1 relatively nondescript red brick building, a
2 quad that's on the corner of King and Dellwood
3 Avenue.
4 And when Ms. Simpson took the property over
5 from foreclose earlier this year -- she's put
6 about $85,000 into the property. One of the
7 things that she realized she had to do was
8 request a certificate of appropriateness from
9 the HPC that dealt with an issue of a door,
10 fence, and window replacement.
11 We've resolved the door and fence issues.
12 The window replacement is what remains to be
13 resolved.
14 Ms. Simpson, candidly, being unfamiliar
15 with the procedure, had contacted Mr. McEachin's
16 office. We want to maintain all along it's
17 [sic] kept terrific, open dialogue with us, and
18 certainly we don't believe that anything to
19 mislead my client; did, however, forward the
20 requested recommendation of staff, which my
21 client took to be the requirements of the
22 windows that would be used for replacement,
23 forwarded that to Lowcountry Windows and Doors,
24 Mr. Wells' firm, and --
25 (Mr. Wells enters the proceedings.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
32
1 MR. HEEKIN: Here he is.
2 At that time, windows were ordered and
3 installed. It was only after that that she
4 realized that the commission, in its hearing,
5 had taken up the suggestion of certain residents
6 and actually members of the commission who
7 suggested that perhaps some slider-style doors
8 would be more appropriate for -- or windows
9 would be more appropriate for this building.
10 If I may, I've got a few pictures. And I'm
11 not certain I have sufficient copies, Mr. Chair.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine. We can
13 actually put it on the overhead.
14 MR. HEEKIN: Okay. I forgot about new
15 technology.
16 The picture you're viewing right now, the
17 first picture is of the building, the Dellwood
18 Avenue front. There on the right-hand side is
19 the area that faces King. And, as you can see,
20 these are the windows as installed.
21 I've got a picture here that I'll present
22 that has the old casement style.
23 (Tenders photograph.)
24 Now, as you can see, there is a difference
25 in the casement style windows and, obviously,
Diane M.
Tropia,
33
1 the traditional sash windows that were put in.
2 The recommendation was to replace with a
3 sash that replicated the original casement look
4 with the five horizontal, I believe, two rows
5 across.
6 The folks from Lowcountry are here to
7 explain what a difficult problem that is; in
8 fact, how it's really impossible to put that
9 type of window in to replicate the grille
10 pattern simply because of where the -- the mid
11 level of the sash-style window sort of hits.
12 You can see there, I've got four by six
13 going across, where prior we had five going up
14 and four going across.
15 Rather than tripping over my own words, I'd
16 like to, at this time, Mr. Chair, ask that
17 Mr. Wells provide his input with respect to the
18 cost and difficulty of replicating these
19 windows.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, before you move on,
21 the picture that I'm looking at -- I'm looking
22 at the set of windows by the door. I see four
23 high and three across?
24 MR. HEEKIN: Well, they're -- and forgive
25 me, that is the back of the building. They were
Diane M.
Tropia,
34
1 of varying casement sizes based upon the window
2 openings, so it is -- suffice to say the windows
3 that were installed in the back, Mr. Chair, are
4 similar in style to the windows that you see in
5 the front in the initial picture that I
6 provided, and the same for the casement windows
7 that were in the front are similar to the
8 casement windows that you see in the back.
9 In other words, it was the old steel
10 casement style. But, again, rather than boring
11 the committee with something that I'm clearly
12 not an expert in, if I may be so bold as to
13 allow Mr. Wells to speak on my client's behalf,
14 I'd appreciate it.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
16 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wells, welcome.
18 Your name and address for the record,
19 please.
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: John Wells, 1530 Elmar
21 Road,
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Expound upon your expertise.
23 MR. WELLS: Well, there was quite a bit of
24 discussion at the time these windows were being
25 ordered. And the casements, to try to replicate
Diane M.
Tropia,
35
1 something like was in there, were prohibitively
2 expensive, and it was the -- it was our
3 understanding that if it's considered 20 percent
4 more than a -- more of a standard window, that
5 it's permissible.
6 They did ask, at the time, that the
7 over and under sash be used instead of the
8 casement, and that was granted.
9 In order to replicate what's there with a
10 sash-type window, you would have -- would have
11 had an uneven sash, which is also a historic
12 no-no. So the intent was to try to replicate as
13 closely as possible to what was there, and I
14 clearly -- that didn't -- for whatever reason
15 hasn't come out like we wanted, but it -- there
16 were other factors involved in it.
17 The building is very similar to a number of
18 other buildings in the area. The house
19 catercorner across the street has exactly the
20 same kind of windows. This building is -- was
21 built in 1949. And although it is in the
22 historic district, it's -- it's beyond the time
23 period they look at as far as historic
24 architecture.
25 The building is more of an institutional --
Diane M.
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36
1 or was more of an institutional-type building.
2 It doesn't really have any significant brickwork
3 or any significant historical architecture at
4 all. To me, these windows look better than the
5 old casements because it makes it look like less
6 of a jail and more of a home.
7 The other corners of that particular
8 intersection -- we have a -- in the package of
9 pictures, I believe it's the last one, the
10 commercial building, which is right across the
11 street, this building actually faces the side of
12 that building, has been redone. And whoever did
13 it did a very nice job on -- but they were
14 allowed to use bronze aluminum windows. I guess
15 we don't quite understand why she's being
16 singled out for this when others have done
17 historically worse.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess I have a question to
19 Mr. McEachin.
20 I have heard before where if the
21 recommendation from the historic committee is
22 going to be 20 percent more than what they could
23 normally do it for, then there is some process
24 that they don't have to go forward with the
25 recommendation. Can you tell me how that
Diane M.
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37
1 works?
2 MR. McEACHIN: Well, how the process works
3 is -- they would have to go to the commission.
4 They would just have to bring the documentation
5 in to show, okay, this is the product, this is
6 what I'm proposing, and the cost differentiation
7 between -- what the commission normally would
8 have done.
9 And I think what we try to do is come up
10 with an option that's acceptable and consistent
11 with the guidelines but closer to the price of
12 what they want to do versus -- you know, we can,
13 but we didn't have the luxury of doing this, to
14 compare what the commission wanted and what they
15 actually did.
16 That's what we try to go with.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: So, now, did you guys bring
18 that stuff to the commission and get that
19 approval?
20 MR. HEEKIN: Mr. Chair, candidly,
21 Ms. Simpson did not make it to the commission
22 meeting that -- where this issue was initially
23 heard. I understand this procedure, though, to
24 be a de novo hearing that will accept the
25 introduction of new evidence.
Diane M.
Tropia,
38
1 And 307.106(Q) is actually what, Mr. Chair,
2 you referred to with respect to the cost.
3 Mr. Wells is prepared to testify today in front
4 of the committee on the -- in excess of
5 20 percent, that the windows that the commission
6 recommended would be over the windows which
7 Ms. Simpson -- the cost would be, I believe,
8 12,000 or more dollars put into this building.
9 So, from that standpoint, we believe we satisfy
10 307.106(Q).
11 Again, Ms. Simpson, not being knowledgeable
12 of the process, not quite understanding the fact
13 that the commission might, in fact, veer from
14 the committee's recommendations, unfortunately,
15 did not make that meeting, and at the time we
16 did not represent her.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I guess I have two
18 questions. Number one, you said that you own
19 several properties here?
20 MS. SIMPSON: Yes, sir.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a reason you didn't
22 come to the committee?
23 MS. SIMPSON: I've been attending school in
24
25 town, and I did tell the preservation department
Diane M.
Tropia,
39
1 that I was not going to attend for that day, and
2 it wasn't told to me that I would have this --
3 these issues and these problems.
4 But then when I got back into town, I
5 called over there, did everything go okay? Yes,
6 it went okay. I'll send you the approval,
7 whatever. They faxed it to me. We have the fax
8 papers where they faxed it over to me, and then
9 I faxed it to the window company.
10 To me, it's like reading another language.
11 I didn't understand what I was reading.
12 I just wanted to make everybody happy. I
13 don't have a problem following rules and
14 regulations. It's just, you know, I put in
15 extra money, a lot of extra money to please RAP
16 and the historic community.
17 I'm trying to clean up the streets over
18 there too. It's a -- not such a nice
19 neighborhood. It's drug infested. We have a
20 lot of issues. It's hard to get rented out
21 there. I wanted my tenants to be safe. I
22 wanted double-insulated glass. I want it to
23 be -- look good, but -- I don't know why I'm
24 being put through this. I didn't do anything.
25 I don't feel I did anything, you know, wrong to
Diane M.
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40
1 deserve it.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: So, now, you said that
3 this -- the order was faxed to you and --
4 MS. ELLER: It was the staff report.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, did the staff report
6 indicate the windows --
7 MR. McEACHIN: Actually, I think it might
8 have been the agenda -- what we call the action
9 agenda. If you have a copy of it, we could
10 verify it.
11 MR. HEEKIN: I've got --
12 MR. McEACHIN: The problem is, on the
13 action agenda, it just has approve or deny or
14 approve with conditions, but it doesn't actually
15 list the conditions. It's just an agenda that
16 shows you what happened basically.
17 A final order is one, which they didn't
18 have, which comes about 21 days or so -- I
19 believe within 21 days after the commission
20 meeting.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, hold on.
22 I have -- Mr. Clark, do you have a question of
23 the applicant?
24 MR. CLARK: I just want to clarify one
25 thing.
Diane M.
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41
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Mr. Clark.
2 MR. CLARK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 Just to clarify for me, these windows are
4 in; is that what you're telling me?
5 MS. SIMPSON: Yes.
6 MR. CLARK: So you put them in
7 before --
8 MS. SIMPSON: Yes.
9 MR. CLARK: So the windows went in before
10 you went before the preservation --
11 MS. SIMPSON: No.
12 MR. CLARK: Okay. So the windows went in,
13 you got your fax as to the conditions, you faxed
14 them to your window guy, and then your window
15 guy put them in?
16 MS. SIMPSON: Right.
17 MR. CLARK: So your window guy, who's your
18 expert, after reading the documents, still put
19 in the wrong windows?
20 MS. SIMPSON: Well, we didn't know because
21 they said it was approved and it was told to me
22 it was approved.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: No -- if I could explain.
24 What was faxed to her wasn't the actual
25 approval that came out of the historic
Diane M.
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42
1 preservation society. It was basically just the
2 agenda that just was marked approved and it
3 didn't have the details.
4 MR. CLARK: Okay. So having no
5 representation at all at the meeting -- nobody
6 was there, right?
7 MS. SIMPSON: Right.
8 MR. CLARK: And so they took it upon
9 themselves to condition you, and then you got a
10 staff report -- I'm lost.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: She didn't get the staff
12 report.
13 MS. ELLER: Through the Chair to
14 Councilmember Clark, I believe -- and Joel can
15 correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a
16 March 26th staff report from the Historic
17 Preservation Commission staff, historic
18 preservation Planning Department, those
19 staffers. And in that staff report, their
20 recommended condition was that the replacement
21 product fit the original window opening, both
22 vertically and horizontally, replicate the size
23 and grille pattern of the original casements,
24 including an exterior muntin, as well as
25 recessed within the opening in a manner to
Diane M.
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43
1 create -- to recreate the reveal of traditional
2 sash or casement-style windows.
3 It's my understanding that this staff
4 recommendation, which was basically replicate
5 the size, do the same number of panes up and
6 down, that the applicant received that and then
7 sent this over to the vendor. And then when
8 this staff report went before the Historic
9 Preservation Commission, the commission chose to
10 reject this staff recommendation and, instead,
11 put a condition on the approval, which, instead
12 of just install windows with the same up and
13 down, actually conditioned it with sliders and
14 with some other things that did not meet what
15 was actually installed.
16 Is that correct?
17 MR. HEEKIN: That would be correct,
18 Ms. Eller.
19 Thank you.
20 MS. ELLER: Thank you.
21 MR. HEEKIN: And, if I may, Mr. Clark,
22 understand that we realize we're standing here
23 sort of begging forgiveness after the --
24 MR. CLARK: Well, I -- don't go there with
25 me. I know.
Diane M.
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44
1 I'm just trying to get a time line.
2 MR. HEEKIN: Yes, sir.
3 MR. CLARK: I'm just trying to get a time
4 line of how this all happened.
5 So our staff report went over. They relied
6 upon our staff report, not the --
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Commission's report.
8 MR. CLARK: -- commission's report. The
9 commission placed some more restrictions, and in
10 the meantime -- on them, which they did not --
11 by the time they had gotten those conditions,
12 the windows were up?
13 MS. ELLER: Yes.
14 It's my understanding that when the
15 applicant called the Planning staff and asked
16 for the results of the HPC meeting, they
17 received the marked agenda, which was just
18 approved with A/C, and then they thought that
19 that approval was the approval of the staff
20 report as opposed to the approval of the
21 conditions. And then when they received the
22 order, which was -- they received the order a
23 few weeks later, the windows had already been
24 ordered and installed.
25 MR. CLARK: Understood.
Diane M.
Tropia,
45
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Were they ordered or were
2 they installed?
3 MR. HEEKIN: Installed.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, you guys hold
5 tight. We've got some public comments, and I'll
6 give you guys a couple of minutes to come back
7 and rebut.
8 MR. HEEKIN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. Mr. Clark, were
10 you done?
11 MR. CLARK: I'm done. Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Jennifer Mansfield, followed
13 by Carmen Godwin, or whichever order you guys
14 want to come up.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Your name and address for
17 the record.
18 You've got three minutes.
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Carmen Godwin, 2623
21 I'm here on behalf of
22 Preservation, and we ask you to support the
23 original decision of the JHPC by affirming their
24 decision.
25 The preservation commission was put in
Diane M.
Tropia,
46
1 place to uphold the design regulations in our
2 historic district, and this particular building
3 is listed as a contributing structure in the
4 district.
5 The preservation commission made a sound
6 decision based on the regulations, a decision
7 that was good for the building, good for the
8 district, and good for our neighborhood's
9 property values.
10 The applicant clearly understood the
11 process. She owns several contributing
12 structures in our district. She's already been
13 cited for performing work without a certificate
14 of appropriateness on one of her properties in
15 the district.
16 She applied for a COA for the Dellwood
17 property work and was notified of the JHPC
18 meeting, but chose not to attend. Then she
19 chose not to wait for the final order to begin
20 the work.
21 Part of the testimony tonight states that
22 she misunderstood the agenda from the City staff
23 Planning Department and followed, instead, the
24 staff recommendations, not the final order of
25 the JHPC. However, the work does not, in fact,
Diane M.
Tropia,
47
1 comply with the staff recommendations.
2 Reference to the staff report shows that
3 the recommended staff conditions were to
4 replicate the size and grille pattern of the
5 original casements, and the new windows do not
6 meet that criteria. So the work did not follow
7 either the JHPC ruling or the staff conditions.
8 So how do you deal with someone who knows
9 the rules but refused to play by them? Do you
10 give them a pass? No, you make them abide by
11 the rules just like you do everyone else. Don't
12 set a precedent. Someone who owns several
13 properties in a historic district must follow
14 the regulations.
15 Just like the preservation commission, the
16 LUZ must make its decision by applying the
17 design regulations to the property at issue.
18 There is nothing in the regulation that allows a
19 pass for someone who does not follow the rules.
20 So what are the rules? The Secretary of
21 Interior standards state, "Deteriorated historic
22 features shall be repaired rather than
23 replaced. Where the severity of deterioration
24 requires replacement, the new feature shall
25 match the old in design, color, texture, and
Diane M.
Tropia,
48
1 other visual qualities and, where possible,
2 materials."
3 Specifically when addressing windows, the
4 design regulations provide that replacement
5 windows must be selected with care. They should
6 match the original sash, pane size,
7 configuration, glazing, muntin detailing, and
8 profile.
9 Small differences between the replacement
10 and historic windows can make big differences in
11 the appearance of historic structures.
12 So, for these reasons, RAP asks that you
13 uphold the design regulations and the JHPC's
14 original decision.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
16 MS. GODWIN: Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Jennifer.
18 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I also need you to give your
20 name and address for the record, and you have
21 three minutes.
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you.
23 My name is Jennifer Mansfield. I live at
25 The testimony submitted is that the
Diane M.
Tropia,
49
1 applicant is seeking to use the 20 percent
2 ordinance exception. And reference to that
3 subsection Q says that the original plans, even
4 under that exception, are required to show to
5 the commission's satisfaction that the work to
6 be performed will be in accordance with the
7 original -- and it says "roof lines" because it
8 also applies to roofs -- and conform to the
9 original door and window openings of the
10 structure; and the replacement windows, doors,
11 and roof materials, with the less expensive
12 alternative, will save in excess of 20 percent.
13 The commission never had the benefit -- as
14 I stand here today as a citizen, neither I nor
15 RAP have had the benefit of seeing any of the
16 materials to show that there is, in fact, a
17 20 percent difference. Even if that were the
18 case, though, the windows that the applicant has
19 installed do not even comply with that
20 20 percent requirement because --
21 And I'm not sure if you have the
22 photographs of the building as it now exists,
23 but those photographs show in the center a thick
24 mullion that never existed in reality and it
25 also shows shimmying all around the -- on the
Diane M.
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50
1 sides, tops and bottoms, and so they don't fit
2 the original openings.
3 We would submit that the interpretation of
4 the 20 percent requirement has to include at
5 least an attempt to comply with the guidelines
6 or else it's a huge loophole that would mean
7 that no one would have to ever follow the
8 guidelines. All they'd need to do is find the
9 lowest common denominator that they could in
10 order to fit through that loophole.
11 It says that it needs to conform, the
12 original door and window openings of the
13 structure, and it doesn't.
14 We've also heard testimony that this
15 building is not architecturally significant. We
16 would argue that all contributing structures
17 are. There are examples throughout the state,
18 including in
19 similar to this one have actually been moved in
20 order to avoid destruction because of their
21 architectural significance.
22 LUZ, de novo, just like the commission, has
23 to apply the design guidelines regardless of
24 their personal opinions about the particular
25 significance of the building.
Diane M.
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51
1 Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
3 Is there anybody else that wants to speak
4 for or against this?
5 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, I'm getting
7 ready to close the public hearing.
8 Sir, you can come up to rebut.
9 (Mr. Heekin approaches the podium.)
10 MR. HEEKIN: Mr. Chair, thank you.
11 Again, I -- for the benefit of the record,
12 I want to -- the entirety of 307.106(Q):
13 "When a certificate of appropriateness has
14 been applied for in connection with the
15 replacement of roof covering, windows or doors,
16 the commission shall allow the property owner's
17 original design plans when the applicable
18 historic design regulations will result in a
19 cost in excess of 20 percent of the property
20 owner's original design plans.
21 "The owner shall be required to show to the
22 commission's satisfaction the work to be
23 performed will be in accordance with the
24 original roof lines and conform to the original
25 door and window openings of the structure in the
Diane M.
Tropia,
52
1 replacement of windows, doors or roof materials
2 with the less expensive materials alternative
3 [sic]" -- "will achieve a savings in excess of
4 20 percent over the historically-compatible
5 materials otherwise required by this chapter."
6 This committee has the ability to recommend
7 to council and perhaps take its own action to
8 include affirming, reversing, or modifying a
9 contested decision or referring the matter back
10 to the commission with specific instructions for
11 further action by adoption of a written order.
12 If the committee is dissatisfied with the
13 evidence presented today from the testimony of
14 Mr. Wells and that of my client with respect to
15 the prohibitive cost involved in replicating the
16 windows as called for by the HPC, we would ask
17 for a -- rather than a denial of this appeal,
18 a -- what would be the exact word I'm looking
19 for -- a referral back to the commission in
20 order to have this specific matter and this
21 specific issue as to whether the original plans
22 as requested versus what the commission decided
23 would be cost prohibitive.
24 These windows have been installed at a cost
25 to my client of 12- to $14,000.
Diane M.
Tropia,
53
1 Mr. Clark hit the nail on the head when he
2 suggested that this action was taken prior to
3 the written order being submitted, and my client
4 does not sit here and throw herself at the mercy
5 of the committee with respect to a failure to
6 follow procedure. She respects rules, she
7 respects order, and she's trying to do her best
8 to renovate homes in a historic district.
9 However, we believe that the position taken
10 by the HPC with respect to historic significance
11 of these casement windows, when there are
12 countless properties of similar nature with
13 similar styled windows in the immediate area,
14 doesn't rise to the level of forcing my client
15 to remove these windows and replace them with a
16 product that is -- essentially would be cost
17 prohibitive with respect to her investment in
18 trying to renovate this quad and bring more
19 residents and new life to this area of
20
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Heekin.
22 I have a question for you. What I heard --
23 the testimony from Ms. Mansfield is that your
24 client has been before the -- familiar with what
25 goes on in the commission and has actually been
Diane M.
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54
1 cited before; is that correct?
2 MR. HEEKIN: She has been cited before,
3 Mr. Graham, on a different property, and I'm not
4 certain of the exact specifics with that.
5 But if you'll allow me two seconds with my
6 client just to make sure I remember what
7 incident it is --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
9 MR. HEEKIN: I want to answer your
10 questions.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
12 (Mr. Heekin confers with Ms. Simpson.)
13 MR. HEEKIN: Briefly, Mr. Chair.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
15 MR. HEEKIN: The first property she
16 attempted to renovate, she did not apply for a
17 COA. She was unaware of that process. She was
18 cited for not applying for a COA. She actually
19 appealed that decision, and the appeal was
20 upheld in terms of the fine. In fact, I think
21 she turned a $250 fine into a $450 fine.
22 Since that time, she has applied for COAs
23 for every building that she's been involved
24 with, including but not limited to this one.
25 And we would submit, again, with the time line
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 that Mr. McEachin established at the beginning
2 of this hearing, shows that there was a true and
3 honest mistake on her part and not an attempt to
4 circumvent the wheels or somehow otherwise force
5 the committee to make a decision that might
6 force her to eat a rather substantial investment
7 with respect to this property.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, did she attend those
9 other meetings when she applied for a --
10 MR. HEEKIN: Did you attend the other
11 meetings?
12 MS. SIMPSON: (Inaudible.)
13 MR. HEEKIN: Is this the only other one
14 that you've --
15 MS. SIMPSON: (Inaudible.)
16 MR. HEEKIN: She did -- she does submit
17 that she went to the meetings on other --
18 certain other properties, but, again,
19 unfortunately, missed this meeting.
20 (Mr. Teal enters the proceedings.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: That's funny. I've got her
22 shaking yes and them back there shaking no.
23 MR. HEEKIN: Well --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Trust me, there's
25 documentation for that. We don't have to have
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 that debate here.
2 All right. Mr. Holt, did you have a
3 question of the applicant?
4 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
6 MR. HEEKIN: Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we have closed the
8 public hearing. I guess this is before us.
9 Did you want to add anything, Mr. Teal?
10 MR. TEAL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11 I did want to add one thing, in that --
12 it's my understanding that the applicant is
13 requesting that this be remanded back to the
14 commission so that they can present evidence to
15 the commission based upon the provision in
16 the -- Chapter 307 regarding the 20 percent. In
17 essence, it's an economic hardship argument.
18 I did want to point out, however, that the
19 20 percent requirement only -- it's kind of a
20 two-part test. The first is that the owner is
21 required to show to the commission's
22 satisfaction that the work to be performed on
23 the window replacement will be in accordance
24 with the original door and window openings of
25 the structure. So as far as that goes --
Diane M.
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1 And then the second part is that the
2 replacement of the windows -- the window
3 materials with a less expensive alternative will
4 achieve a savings in excess of 20 percent.
5 Now, my understanding is that what she's
6 installed doesn't necessarily go to a materials
7 issue. What she's installed is actually a
8 design change.
9 The first part of it says that it still has
10 to conform with the original design. The
11 20 percent savings only goes to -- if you want
12 to use a less expensive material. For example,
13 if the Historic Preservation Commission is
14 requesting that you use solid wood windows, you
15 want to come back with vinyl windows and you can
16 show that it's a 20 percent reduction, that's
17 where that provision kicks in.
18 The materials is the limit as far as what
19 you can demonstrate is going to result in a
20 20 percent savings. The design of the windows
21 itself is not in play from the provision in
22 Chapter 307.
23 So, you know, I don't know where that
24 leaves it as far as the request for remand goes,
25 but, you know, my interpretation of this
Diane M.
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1 provision in Chapter 307.106 is that -- I don't
2 think it gets them where they're trying to go.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You know, it's
4 interesting. I'm sure the historic preservation
5 people, every time something comes before me,
6 tend to cringe because I am not one of those
7 people that's very historically savvy, but one
8 of the things I do understand is following the
9 rules and following the process.
10 It sounds to me -- and I'm speaking to the
11 committee. It sounds to me that this woman is
12 familiar with the process and knew what the
13 rules were and just didn't follow them.
14 Now, if there is some sort of a glitch of
15 what information was sent to her from the
16 Planning Department, that I don't know. I've
17 got conflicting testimony between -- if the
18 woman has ever come to any of these meetings
19 before in the past, when she applied for one of
20 these things, or not. I'm sure that's something
21 that -- if there's minutes kept of these
22 meetings, that it will show if she's actually
23 shown or if she has not.
24 I guess my recommendation would be either,
25 number one, to vote this thing down or to send
Diane M.
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1 it back to the historic commission and let them
2 work out something that makes it convenient
3 because the way I look at this -- even though I
4 don't understand and don't have the high
5 appreciation to what's going on, the thing
6 that --- I do have a great appreciation for the
7 fact that when you create this historic
8 district, you add a lot of value to these
9 homes. And also by creating this historic
10 district, you're getting yourself tax savings on
11 improvements that you make to these homes.
12 I mean, so there's tax benefits that go
13 straight to these owners when they -- when they
14 add these extra costs, they're not getting taxed
15 on those extra costs. And so, you know, you
16 have to -- you have to basically follow a
17 stricter guideline and dance to a more stringent
18 rule system if you want to go along with the
19 benefit of being in an historic area and the tax
20 benefits that come along with that.
21 So I don't know -- and I guess the question
22 is to Mr. McEachin or Mr. Teal. If this
23 committee were to make the recommendation to
24 send it back, what happens when it goes back to
25 the historic commission?
Diane M.
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1 MR. TEAL: You do have the ability to
2 remand it back to the commission. You do have
3 to provide them with direction as to exactly
4 what you want them to consider.
5 Now, the commission -- you know, again, the
6 20 percent, you know, the savings issue, that
7 hasn't been presented to them before, and so
8 that would be all new information to them.
9 You know, again, I think that the code is
10 pretty clear that the limitations are that they
11 can only consider 20 percent from a materials
12 standpoint, not a design standpoint.
13 It complicates it a little bit because of
14 the fact that the windows were already installed
15 and that it would be a matter of, you know,
16 taking one out and putting a different one in.
17 What that new window would be, that would be
18 potentially something that they could come back
19 and they could say, I would want to propose a
20 vinyl -- you know, whatever the commission
21 originally had -- a vinyl version of that versus
22 a wood version to save the 20 percent, but the
23 committee would have to give them pretty
24 specific direction as to exactly what you want
25 them to consider in a remand back to them.
Diane M.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, now, they can also
2 make considerations where -- I guess to find the
3 middle ground or the compromise, where they can
4 make consideration that anything that's facing
5 the front, you'd change all those windows out.
6 The things that are on the back that aren't
7 basically visible to passing traffic, you don't
8 have to change those windows out.
9 Or I guess we could send it back to them
10 and give them several options and say, you know,
11 you either hold tight or, you know, you try to
12 work through this thing.
13 MR. TEAL: Correct.
14 Yeah, because the application, as presented
15 to them, was for a wholesale replacement, and it
16 didn't look at kind of the middle ground issues
17 of, well, if this facade is not street-facing,
18 can we do something different in that
19 perspective.
20 You could certainly remand it back to them
21 with those kinds of directions and say, you
22 know, take a look and see whether there is any
23 way that the applicant would be allowed to keep
24 some of the windows that aren't as
25 street-facing, those kinds of things.
Diane M.
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1 So, yeah, that would certainly be something
2 that you could request that they consider.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: So I guess the procedure --
4 if we remand it back to them and there is no
5 solution that comes out of that, does that come
6 back to us again on another appeal or is their
7 decision the final order since we sent it back
8 to them?
9 MR. TEAL: I think the code was amended to
10 give the City Council the final say, and so if
11 you remand it back to them with specific
12 directions and then the applicant doesn't like,
13 or RAP doesn't like the decision as far as what
14 the commission does, they can appeal it back up
15 to the council.
16 Now, remanding it back would alleviate the
17 requirement for the fee as far as the filing of
18 a new application. But if they were to appeal
19 it back up to the City Council, new notices
20 would have to go out and those sorts of things.
21 I don't know whether or not there would be a fee
22 associated with that. I just haven't looked at
23 the code to see whether or not it contemplates
24 that, but, again, you would have -- the council
25 would have the final say.
Diane M.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, like I said, I'm --
2 one of the things that I do not want to do --
3 because I know the people at RAP have done a lot
4 of work to turn that area around, they've done a
5 lot to add value to the homes that are out
6 there, and I'm not trying, by any means, to
7 undermine their process and what they've gone
8 through, and it seems clear to me that the
9 applicant is familiar with the process, so --
10 We've had it before where someone has come
11 before us and they weren't familiar with the
12 process and somebody put the wrong roof on, and
13 that's a different story. But in this one, in
14 my opinion, the applicant is fully aware of
15 what's going on, but it seems to me that there
16 can be some middle ground because the last thing
17 I want to do is charge somebody -- or make
18 someone spend another $12,000 for windows just
19 because people don't like where the panes are.
20 So it seems like I can find some middle
21 ground, but me, being Chair, I can't make a
22 motion one way or the other.
23 MR. HOLT: I make a motion to grant --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Grab your mic.
25 Mr. Holt.
Diane M.
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1 MR. HOLT: I move that we remand it back to
2 the
3 Commission for them to consider the evidence of
4 the 20 percent difference.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: And meeting some sort of
6 middle ground or compromise?
7 MR. HOLT: Yeah. Can we encourage them to
8 find some sort of negotiation on the windows?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: That's --
10 MR. HOLT: That would be my motion.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that seconded?
12 MR. CLARK: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Moved and seconded.
14 Mr. Clark.
15 MR. CLARK: I assume if they can't play
16 nice that they'll -- it will come back here
17 and --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: (Nods head.)
19 MR. CLARK: Okay.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
21 seconded.
22 Is that sufficient to the things that we
23 were discussing?
24 MS. ELLER: To the Committee, if I may
25 repeat it.
Diane M.
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1 My understanding is that the amendment
2 would be to remand the appeal back to the
3 Historic Preservation Commission for the
4 commission to consider the criteria under
5 307.106(Q), which has been read to you, which
6 includes the 20 percent, as well as the design
7 issue that Mr. Teal alluded to, and with the
8 additional instruction that the commission
9 consider any options whereby windows ultimately
10 that need replacing would only be ones that are
11 facing a right-of-way and have them consider
12 working out a compromise regarding windows that
13 would not, in their opinion, be deemed to impact
14 the district as much because they are, in fact,
15 on the back or on the side of the building.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: And I'm not familiar with
17 the back side of this building. It may be one
18 of those where there's nothing behind it and
19 it -- it shows to everybody, so they may decide
20 that they only want the things in the back, on
21 the bottom, the first floor. I mean, I don't
22 know how they want to slice that -- that piece
23 of pie, but, you know, I guess I -- I will defer
24 to them.
25 MS. ELLER: Okay.
Diane M.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: So that's all in the
2 motion? And that's all been seconded.
3 MS. ELLER: That's my understanding, and
4 I'll draft the amendment that way.
5 And, additionally, we attach the transcript
6 from this meeting when it goes back to the HPC.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I guess the concern I
8 have -- or the question I have, if this comes
9 back before us, if we can get documentation from
10 those other applicants -- applications that were
11 filed by this applicant and if she actually
12 attended those meetings or not.
13 MS. ELLER: Okay.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Because it seemed like that
15 was the point that we were going back and forth
16 on, and I'm sure there's records that show if
17 that is or is not the case.
18 MS. ELLER: Yes, I will do that, and that
19 would go towards your ability to weigh the
20 credibility on the testimony if this is
21 ultimately back before you again on appeal.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have a motion
23 before us and a second.
24 Any further discussion on the amendment to
25 the appeal?
Diane M.
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Are we -- just voice vote
3 or --
4 MS. ELLER: Voice on the amendment.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the
6 amendment signify by saying aye.
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
11 approved the amendment.
12 MR. CLARK: Move it.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Move the appeal as amended?
14 MR. CLARK: Yes.
15 MR. HOLT: Second.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: We are moving it as amended
17 and it's been seconded.
18 Open the ballot.
19 (Committee ballot opened.)
20 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
22 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
25 (Committee ballot closed.)
Diane M.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
2 the vote.
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
5 amended the appeal back to the historic
6 commission for, I guess, further deliberation
7 and we'll see what happens from there.
8 (Mr. Heekin approaches the podium.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Heekin.
10 MR. HEEKIN: Mr. Chair, thank you and the
11 committee for your time today.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
13 That all being said, do we have anything to
14 come before us?
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 STAFF MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we're
18 adjourned.
19 I just needed to make one public
20 announcement before everybody leaves, that the
21 next LUZ meeting is going to be on Monday
22 November the 3rd. It's not a traditional LUZ
23 meeting, so we need to make sure that everybody
24 has that.
25 And that all being said, we're now
Diane M.
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1 adjourned.
2 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
3 6:05 p.m.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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3 STATE OF
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
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6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 23rd day of October, 2008.
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Diane M.
Tropia,