1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, September 16,
7 2008, commencing at 5:04 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 ART GRAHAM, Chair.
STEPHEN JOOST, Vice Chair.
14 RICHARD CLARK, Committee Member.
JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
15 RAY HOLT, Committee Member.
JACK WEBB, Committee Member.
16 DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
ART SHAD, City Council Member.
19 JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
20 FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
21 MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
22
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23
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 September 16, 2008 5:04 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Let the record show -- I
5 have 5:04 on Tuesday, April [sic] 16th, and this
6 is the Land Use and Zoning Committee.
7 Let's start over here on the right with
8 Mr. Crofts and let's introduce ourselves.
9 MR. CROFTS: John Crofts, Planning and
10 Development Department.
11 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
12 Development.
13 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford, Planning and
14 Development.
15 MS. ELLER: Shannon Eller, General
16 Counsel's Office.
17 MR. SHAD: Art Shad, visiting, District 5.
18 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4.
19 DR. GAFFNEY: Dr. Gaffney, District 7.
20 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt, District 11.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Art Graham, District 13.
22 MR. JOOST: Stephen Joost, Group 3
23 at-large.
24 MR. WEBB: Jack Webb, District 6.
25 MR. CLARK: Richard Clark, Canvassing Board
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 extraordinaire.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: And thank you for all your
3 fine work, Mr. Clark.
4 Okay. We're going to take things a little
5 out of order because we have a visiting
6 councilmember here, so if we can go to page 13,
7 2008-651.
8 Now, we are going to do things a little
9 different on this one because we have expert
10 witnesses on both sides. We're going to give
11 both sides 15 minutes to speak. The applicant
12 will speak first and then the other side will
13 speak for their 15 minutes, and the applicant
14 will have the opportunity to come back and rebut
15 for the remaining of his 15 minutes.
16 Anybody else that wants to speak outside of
17 that, I'll cut you off if we're hearing stuff
18 that's duplicative of something we've already
19 heard. You guys will all be given a minute to
20 speak.
21 And I'll let you know that everything that
22 went into the Planning Commission, that stuff
23 all is in the public record and we all have that
24 stuff, so unless there's something new that you
25 want to add that we haven't heard from either
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 side, feel free to come up. We have your card,
2 just give your name and address for the record
3 when you come up here, and we'll make sure that
4 the card is pulled, and you do have a minute.
5 But other than that, I think we're good.
6 MR. HOLT: Declare ex-parte?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ex-parte, sure.
8 Mr. Shad, we'll start with you.
9 MR. SHAD: Thank you.
10 In addition to previously-announced
11 communications at last week's City Council
12 meeting, I had one single conversation with
13 Barbara Jaffe today just prior to this meeting
14 with regards to some of the conditions.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman, go ahead.
17 MR. REDMAN: Approximately two weeks ago, I
18 had an ex-parte communication with T.R. Hainline
19 and again today with the same individual.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Gaffney.
21 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes. I had an ex-parte
22 communication with T.R. Hainline as well.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
24 MR. HOLT: I had ex-parte communications
25 with Mr. Hainline last Tuesday, the 9th,
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 regarding the issues surrounding
2 Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost.
4 MR. JOOST: I had an ex-parte communication
5 with Mr. T.R. Hainline this afternoon, right
6 after the agenda meeting, in my office.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb.
8 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9 On Monday, September 8th at 8 a.m., I had
10 ex-parte communications with Mr. Hainline as
11 well regarding the application.
12 And then on Thursday, September 4th, I had
13 ex-parte communications with a number of
14 people. It was at 4:15 p.m., in council meeting
15 room A. Brenna Durden, Brian Wheeler, Lucy
16 Jensen,
17 said, Brenna Durden.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clark.
19 MR. CLARK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 I had ex-parte July 22nd with T.R.
21 Hainline.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: And I had ex-parte with
23 Mr. Hainline and Ms. Durden and crew, and I have
24 the paperwork filed saying such.
25 That being said, Mr. Hainline, we will open
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 the public hearing.
2 (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: You have 15 minutes. You
4 can decide how much you want to use up front and
5 how much you want to use in rebuttal.
6 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Chairman, first, I have
7 some things I'd like to pass out.
8 Brenna, here's yours.
9 (Tenders documents.)
10 This is the same stuff as last week.
11 There's nothing new in there.
12 MS. DURDEN: Thank you.
13 MR. HAINLINE: T.R. Hainline, 1301
15 Mr. Chairman, here is what we're going to
16 do: I'm going to speak for a little while, then
17 Steve Nichols, who is the harbor master for
18
19 while. That would be the conclusion of our 15
20 minutes. And if I could ask you-all to give
21 Steve a warning when there's -- about 11 minutes
22 is up, that would be great.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
24 MR. HAINLINE: And I would like to save the
25 remaining time, hopefully four minutes, for
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 rebuttal at the end of everybody speaking.
2 So Steve Nichols and I are going to speak,
3 and I'm sure there are others who are here to
4 speak within those one-minute parameters that
5 you mentioned as well.
6 So my name is T.R. Hainline, 1301
8
9 I think you-all are familiar with the
10 application as a whole, so I won't go over
11 that. The Planning Department's report covers
12 that in great detail.
13 Last Thursday, the Planning Commission
14 heard from proponents and opponents for almost
15 three hours, and the Planning Commission voted
16 to recommend approval of this PUD and approval
17 with a revised parking plan which reduces the
18 parking somewhat and saves many more large
19 specimen trees.
20 That plan is the result of discussions that
21 we had with a group of residents. We offered it
22 to the Planning Commission as an alternative
23 plan, with the result of saving more trees. And
24 the Planning Commission, after hearing from
25 everyone, adopted that alternative plan.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 The Planning Department, of course, has
2 also recommended approval, and its report is in
3 your packet.
4 We did have experts testify at the Planning
5 Commission meeting at some length. I'm not
6 going to have them testify here tonight. Their
7 testimony is in your transcripts, but all of
8 them are here and they're available to answer
9 questions if you have any following the reading
10 of their testimony.
11 I'd just like to cover a few brief points
12 and then turn it over to Steve Nichols.
13
14 and I'd like to make a couple of points about
15 that. The club is and always was intended to be
16 a recreational use for residents, for people who
17 live throughout
18 original PUD made it clear that the club was for
19 residents and non-residents. The original PUD
20 looked at the unique facilities, the resources
21 that are there at Epping, the mansion, the
22 gardens, and the marina. And the original PUD
23 said, these are unique resources; they should be
24 the focal point for this development. And this
25 PUD -- again, this is back in 1985 -- should
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Tropia,
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1 provide, and I'm quoting, fine housing, a
2 nondiscriminatory yacht club, and a special
3 events facility.
4 With regard to the marina specifically, the
5 yacht -- the PUD, the original PUD, described
6 the marina as a noncommercial marina open to
7 resident and non-resident members of the club.
8 And the original PUD defined what it meant by a
9 "noncommercial marina." That meant no fuel
10 service, no boat ramp, no repair or haul-out
11 facilities, no liveaboards, no covered boat
12 slips, and no dockominiums or slips for sale.
13 In those respects,
14 the
15 Club, also on the Westside, but it most
16 certainly is not like Lamb's or Palm Cove, or
17 Beach Marine because all of those have, in
18 various combinations, fuel service, haul-out,
19 repair, all of those things, very intensive uses
20 in and of themselves.
21 As a private club,
22 is an explicitly permitted recreational use in
23 the low density residential land use category,
24 the LDR category.
25 Does the number of slips at the marina or
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 the number of weddings that are held at the
2 club, does that change somehow that use being
3 permitted in the LDR category? The answer
4 absolutely is no. And that works for many uses
5 that are permitted in the LDR category, and I'll
6 pick a church just as an example.
7 If a church starts to have great membership
8 and has big weddings there or draws national
9 pastors to come in and speak, does that make
10 that church all of a sudden not compatible or
11 not permitted in the LDR use? No, it does not.
12 So
13 that was always intended to be a special events
14 facility and a place with great resources to be
15 used by residents and non-residents alike, fits
16 within the LDR category and always has.
17 Let me mention two other points that are
18 raised by the opposition as you have seen in the
19 transcripts.
20 In terms of reasonable expectations, we
21 believe that when someone buys within a PUD and
22 sees that the yacht club is the focal point of
23 the development, that it includes memberships to
24 non-residents, that it has recreational and
25 meeting facilities for special events, that
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 indeed there's an expectation that there's going
2 to be a club there that is a draw for
3 non-residents alike and has events such as
4 this.
5 We believe that when you look at a marina,
6 that the marina defined itself as noncommercial
7 with no haul-out, no fuel service, no repairs,
8 et cetera, and that that's an expectation as it
9 sets there.
10 Is it reasonable for residents to assume
11 that there will never be any changes to the
12
13 The
14 times since 1985. Modifications have included
15 allowing a bigger footprint for the condominium
16 buildings. That was one of the modifications.
17 Also, allowing some additional recreational
18 facilities. So the PUD has been amended, again,
19 six times since 1985, so there's no assumption
20 that it will never be amended.
21 In terms of use, the condominium owners
22 have raised the issue of views, from their
23 perception, being diminished by the marina, and
24 I'll say what I said at the Planning Commission
25 meeting, which is the club owns down to the
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 water. There's no debate about that. That's
2 been the case since the club opened.
3 The club owns down to the water. That
4 waterfront ownership brings with it benefits and
5 burdens. The benefit to the club is that it
6 controls access to the marina and can develop
7 access to the marina. The burden is that that
8 waterfront that the club owns costs a lot of
9 money to maintain. And, in fact, it's going to
10 cost about a million and a half dollars to
11 repair that bulkhead.
12 What the condominium owners are asking
13 for -- and this is our perception, of course.
14 What they're asking for is the ability -- as if
15 they owned to the waterfront, which they don't,
16 they're asking for the ability to control
17 development of the water out there, but they
18 don't want to have to pay the million and a half
19 dollars that it's going to take to maintain that
20 bulkhead.
21 So waterfront ownership, what comes with
22 that are the benefits of views and control of
23 waterfront development and heavy burdens too,
24 which is those repair costs that I mentioned.
25 The parking issue, let me just touch on
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 that. Again, an alternative parking plan was
2 adopted by the Planning Commission after a lot
3 of testimony. That alternative parking plan
4 takes -- we would be happy to do the required
5 parking under the
6 one parking space per three boat slips. That
7 was our original proposal.
8 Residents came to us and said -- as we knew
9 from our own data, which we submitted at the
10 Planning Commission. Residents came to us and
11 said, The marina doesn't cause a demand on
12 parking. That doesn't cause it; it's special
13 events. We don't want you to develop 25 spaces
14 of parking and have to take down big trees. Can
15 you please devise a plan that provides less
16 parking and saves more trees? So we did that.
17 Working with a group of residents, we came
18 up with a plan which provides eight parking
19 spaces, which under our own data is sufficient
20 for the marina slips that we're adding, and
21 saves all of the specimen trees that those
22 residents wanted. It's really all but one
23 that's over near the tennis courts. All the big
24 trees that are there in the parking area, that
25 plan would save. That's the plan that was
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 adopted by the Planning Commission.
2 Remember that the condo owners have their
3 own dedicated parking under their building, so
4 that's not an issue. We believe, as all of the
5 residents that I've talked to believe, that the
6 alternative plan provides sufficient parking and
7 saves more trees, but if it's the wish of this
8 committee, we're happy as well to provide all
9 the parking that's required under the PUD and
10 stick with the original proposal.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hainline, you've got
12 five minutes left.
13 MR. HAINLINE: All right. With that, I'm
14 going to turn it over to Steve Nichols.
15 (Mr. Nichols approaches the podium.)
16 MR. NICHOLS: Members of the committee, I
17 will be very brief. I want to first assure you
18 that, again, as was stated in last year's
19 hearing -- or last week's hearing, I'm sorry --
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Steve, I need your name and
21 address for the record.
22 MR. NICHOLS: I'm sorry.
23 Steve Nichols,
24 Harbor Master,
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. NICHOLS: There's a parallel permitting
2 process going on with the State of
3 Corps of Engineers, the
4 St. Johns Water Management District, and in that
5 will be addressed manatee safety issues,
6 navigation issues, water quality issues. That
7 is ongoing, and so our task here is not --
8 today, not to decide that. Our task here today
9 is to talk about the PUD.
10 I want to reinforce the fact that we are
11 changing none of the rules of the marina. As
12 you heard Mr. Hainline say, we have rules in the
13 marina and there are things that we don't
14 allow. We don't have haul-out facilities for
15 major work; we do not and will not have fuel; we
16 do not allow liveaboards. All of the rules that
17 are in place today will remain in place because
18 that's the facility we want. We don't intend
19 this to become a commercial marina. It will
20 remain a private yacht club as it has always
21 been.
22 In your booklets there, under tab 6, you
23 have letters from our various fleet members who
24 give their -- the reasons of the Epping
25 membership as to why they would like to see the
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 marina expanded.
2 We've tried to make accommodations in the
3 design process by offsetting the proposed marina
4 site from the bulkhead, having access all in one
5 place, at the same place that it exists now.
6 If we're permitted and move forward with
7 the expanded marina, there is no reason for any
8 additional foot traffic to go beyond where it is
9 now. There will be, obviously, some increase in
10 that, but it's not going to move down the
11 waterfront in front of the condo buildings. And
12 I think if you look at the diagrams of the
13 marina, you can see that.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Steve, you guys have three
15 minutes left.
16 MR. NICHOLS: Okay. I would like to finish
17 with one other thing, and that is the parking
18 issue. The parking issue, you have under your
19 tab 7 -- I'm sorry, tab 7 is the parking issue.
20 We kept a one-year log of all the
21 activities in the marina and the boats that came
22 and went and other activities, and we laid that
23 down. The methodology is outlined in there. It
24 tells you how we came to it.
25 But an existing marina of 71 slips, eight
Diane M. Tropia,
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1 to nine parking spaces is adequate for all but
2 a -- about 13 days a year. In the new marina,
3 expect the same traffic. Eight parking slips,
4 in my opinion, based on this historical data,
5 confirms that that is large enough.
6 And, with that, I will conclude.
7 Obviously, we're available for questions.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
9 MR. NICHOLS: Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hainline, you guys have
11 two minutes to rebut.
12 MR. HAINLINE: Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Durden.
14 (Ms. Durden approaches the podium.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Durden, name and address
16 for the record, and you have 15 minutes.
17 MS. DURDEN: Thank you very much,
18 Mr. Chairman.
19 Brenna Durden, 245 Riverside Avenue,
20 Suite 150, Jacksonville.
21 As you know, there are a significant number
22 of residents who are in opposition to the marina
23 expansion that has been proposed. They're also
24 in opposition to the additional condition
25 regarding the eight additional parking spaces
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 that was proposed by -- or submitted to you by
2 the Planning Commission.
3 The main concern that I think you're going
4 to hear about is the extreme intensity of what
5 is going on on this parcel. This is low density
6 residential. We have a health club that's
7 nearly 15,000 square feet in size. We have a
8 proposed marina with wet slips, 135 wet slips.
9 We have four pools. We have six tennis courts.
10 We have a playground. We have a second cafe on
11 the facility. We have basically what amounts to
12 a commercial enterprise inserted into what is on
13 your future land use map as low density
14 residential.
15 I think you will hear from our experts that
16 that is absolutely not permitted and not
17 consistent with not only the express provisions
18 in the comprehensive plan, but the intent -- the
19 spirit and intent.
20 You will also hear that the Planning
21 Department has not completed its analysis of the
22 Manatee Protection Plan that is absolutely
23 expressly mandated in the comprehensive plan in
24 the boating facilities siting plan.
25 I want to raise several legal issues, one
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 deals with notice. As you know -- or maybe as
2 some of you may know, I have submitted to the
3 City the notice -- the signs that were put up
4 were put up improperly. They put up signs in
5 the interior of Epping Forest. After I sent the
6 letter, they put up the signs on the exterior,
7 along San Jose Boulevard, in those -- however,
8 as of last week, those signs had been removed.
9 I'm also, on the record, going to object to
10 the limited time that's been afforded the
11 parties to present the testimony, whether it's
12 me, the experts, or even the residents.
13 In addition, I'm raising the issue about
14 the authority of one land owner within a PUD to
15 amend a PUD that addresses, across the board,
16 the entire Epping Forest community. Your own
17 zoning code requires, in express language, that
18 it -- that the application must contain the
19 consent and commitment by every owner within the
20 PUD. I would suggest to you that that has not
21 occurred.
22 Now, as you know, an applicant for a
23 rezoning must come in and establish that the
24 project is consistent with the comp plan,
25 furthers the goals, objectives, and policies of
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 the plan, and is not in conflict. I think you
2 will hear that that is not the case when you
3 hear our expert testimony. And even if it was
4 the case, which I'm suggesting to you strongly
5 it is not the case, that even if it is, you have
6 a requirement to consider a legitimate public
7 purpose, those that would curtail you from
8 rezoning the property to allow this PUD. That
9 includes that it would not be consistent or
10 compatible with the existing and proposed land
11 uses and zoning of the adjacent and nearby
12 properties or of the general area and will
13 deviate from an established or developing
14 logical and orderly development pattern.
15 There are other reasons in that, but I'm
16 only going to take the time for one.
17 At this time -- I've handed out a bound
18 volume. I've given you that same copy. In
19 there, you will see that there are -- under
20 tab 1, there are three resumes. One is of Brian
21 Wheeler, one is of Dawn Sonneborn, and the last
22 one that's in that, under tab 1, is of Bill
23 Byers. I'm offering them as experts in land
24 use, land design, engineering, traffic, and
25 urban design.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 I would, at this time, like to call up Dawn
2 Sonneborn. And could you tell us where we are
3 in time?
4 (Ms. Sonneborn approaches the podium.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: You have 10 minutes and
6 15 seconds.
7 MS. DURDEN: Okay. Would you please let
8 our people know when they approach the three- or
9 four-minute mark?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
11 Is that digital clock working there?
12 MS. DURDEN: What clock?
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a digital clock on
14 the podium?
15 MS. DURDEN: No, not that we can see. I
16 didn't see any clock.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
18 MS. SONNEBORN: No, it's not lit.
19 MS. DURDEN: So since it's not working, how
20 are we going to --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: I was going to ask the
22 question -- is it on now?
23 MS. SONNEBORN: It's not displayed here.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Do you want me to
25 give you a warning at two minutes, three
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 minutes, when?
2 MS. SONNEBORN: Three minutes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
4 MS. SONNEBORN: Dawn Sonneborn -- are you
5 ready?
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, what we can do is we
7 can set the light pole for three minutes. So
8 when this light right here goes red, you know
9 you're three minutes -- you're at three
10 minutes.
11 MS. SONNEBORN: Okay.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: The yellow is two minutes.
13 And when you hit the red, then you've got --
14 that's three minutes.
15 I mean, you can go further past three
16 minutes --
17 MS. SONNEBORN: Right.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: -- but just so you --
19 MS. SONNEBORN: Yeah. I wanted to share
20 the time, so . . .
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah.
22 MS. SONNEBORN: Do I wait for it to go
23 green?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: No.
25 MS. SONNEBORN: Okay.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: You can start whenever
2 you -- give your name and address for the
3 record. And when you do that, he'll start it.
4 MS. SONNEBORN: Dawn Sonneborn, a certified
5 planner with Genesis Group, 9250 Cypress Green
6 Drive, in Jacksonville, Florida.
7 I'm a certified planner with 20 years of
8 regulatory experience, and I've taken a look at
9 the application and want to point out some of
10 the inconsistencies with your comprehensive
11 plan.
12 The future land use element in the plan
13 category descriptions, under the secondary and
14 supporting uses paragraph, it mentions that
15 yacht and country clubs may be allowed in
16 residential categories.
17 Staff has assumed the term "yacht club" to
18 be synonymous with "marina." A marina is
19 defined in the zoning code and does not use the
20 term "yacht club" in the definition, and "yacht
21 club" is not defined in the zoning code.
22 It's important to note that "marina" is a
23 use that is specifically listed in the
24 commercial retail sales and service
25 establishment definition of the zoning code, and
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1 the term "marina" is not mentioned in the
2 residential plan category description of the
3 future land use element. So I believe that
4 provides the intent, that marinas were not
5 intended for the residential category.
6 It further states that new commercial uses
7 shall not be allowed as secondary and supporting
8 uses under residential where such uses would
9 constitute an intrusion into an existing
10 single-family neighborhood. And, again,
11 "marina" is listed in the commercial retail
12 sales and service establishments definition in
13 the code.
14 Your comprehensive plan also states that
15 marinas have to meet other elements -- have
16 consistency with other elements in the comp
17 plan, and that points you to the conservation
18 coastal management element and states that
19 marinas within Zone 15, which the subject site
20 is in Zone 15, have -- marinas are acceptable
21 with conditions, and there are a list of
22 conditions that have to be met.
23 "The proposed facility will have no or
24 minimal adverse impact on manatee movements."
25 The highest numbers of manatee sightings
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 documented over the past decade are in the lower
2 St. Johns River area, which is in the proximity
3 of this subject site.
4 "The proposed facility should have no or
5 minimal dredging." The applicant failed to
6 provide any documentation in relation to how
7 this new marine construction and its ongoing
8 operations will reduce or eliminate impact to
9 the benthic communities and submerged aquatic
10 vegetation.
11 "The proposed facility is compatible with
12 local and land use zoning." We took a look at
13 all the private and public marinas containing
14 71 or more wet slips, which Brian Wheeler will
15 be talking about, those are all in commercial or
16 other future land use categories involving
17 higher density.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: You're at three minutes.
19 MS. SONNEBORN: Okay. I'll just wrap up.
20 Also, the housing element. Under the
21 neighborhood stabilization, it says, "New uses
22 shall enhance" -- or "uses enhance or do not
23 diminish or degrade the residential character of
24 the neighborhood." That's something that an
25 appraiser can't put a number to, the residential
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 character, and we feel that this definitely
2 diminishes the residential character of the
3 existing neighborhood, providing an
4 inconsistency.
5 The term "marina," as far as the zoning
6 code, is not specifically used in any of the
7 residential land use or zoning category
8 descriptions.
9 The word "marina," it starts to be used in
10 the zoning code when you're talking about the IW
11 zoning district, which is by exception; the
12 ag- -- and, again, that relates you back to
13 meeting all of the boat siting -- boat facility
14 siting criteria of the Manatee Protection Plan,
15 which I mentioned about earlier, and it also
16 mentions that in ROS and the downtown overlay
17 zone. So those, I believe, are intended to be
18 higher intensity zoning districts rather than
19 the low density residential category's intent.
20 Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
22 Hold on a second. I think -- you have a
23 question for this?
24 MR. WEBB: I can hold my question.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to hold them or
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
27
1 do you want to ask?
2 MR. WEBB: It's up to you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
4 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 I'm sorry, ma'am. What's your name again,
6 please?
7 MS. SONNEBORN: Dawn Sonneborn.
8 MR. WEBB: Ms. Sonneborn, a couple -- a
9 question on the comp plan issue that you
10 raised.
11 You say that -- well, what is the existing
12 comp plan designation for this property?
13 MS. SONNEBORN: Low density residential.
14 MR. WEBB: It's LDR. All right.
15 And, obviously, you're saying a commercial
16 marina enterprise would not be appropriate
17 within LDR.
18 MS. SONNEBORN: Uh-huh.
19 MR. WEBB: That makes perfect sense, but --
20 but the original -- the PUD contemplates a yacht
21 club; is that correct?
22 MS. SONNEBORN: Right.
23 MR. WEBB: All right. But this is -- this
24 facility is not a commercial marina in that
25 there is no gas facility, there's no boatyard,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
28
1 there's no mechanical work being done. This is
2 more of a -- I would describe it as a
3 noncommercial -- if you want to call it a
4 marina, that's fine, but it's more of a
5 noncommercial boat slip -- call it whatever you
6 will, but is that -- is such a use in the --
7 take the marina use, take away the commercial,
8 it leaves kind of a boat club. Is a boat club
9 allowed, is it a permissive use -- permitted use
10 under the LDR?
11 MS. SONNEBORN: I understand that this
12 facility will have boat slips that are for
13 rental for outside public use. It's not for
14 residents only within -- within Epping Forest.
15 MR. WEBB: Yeah, that's correct.
16 But through the Chair, again, the original
17 PUD, what I understand, contemplated both a
18 private -- well, a public club. So clearly the
19 original PUD permitted -- the use for a club was
20 consistent with the LDR classification, I would
21 assume that to be the case.
22 This is an expansion of what has previously
23 been deemed an acceptable, permitted use under
24 LDR as contemplated by the existing PUD; is that
25 correct?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MS. SONNEBORN: The yacht club is a
2 secondary use that's mentioned in the intent,
3 but "yacht club" is not defined anywhere within
4 the comprehensive plan or the zoning code, and
5 the word "marina" is used all throughout the
6 application and all throughout the staff's
7 report. So the word "yacht club" and "marina"
8 have kind of been intertwined here.
9 MR. WEBB: Okay. All right. I'll get
10 general counsel's position on that.
11 Thank you very much. Appreciate that.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
13 (Mr. Wheeler approaches the podium.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wheeler, there's six
15 minutes left on the clock.
16 MR. WHEELER: Can we get the overhead
17 operable?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
19 He won't start it until you give your name
20 and address for the record, so take your time.
21 Do you want me to let you know at two,
22 three, four minutes? How far in?
23 MR. WHEELER: When we've got -- what have
24 we got left now, five?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: You've got six minutes left.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. WHEELER: Six?
2 When we have three minutes left.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
4 MR. WHEELER: Okay. You could open it to
5 the first page.
6 MS. ALLEN: (Complies.)
7 MR. WHEELER: You may have to share a few.
8 All right. Brian Wheeler, 9250 Cypress
9 Green Drive.
10 The issue is not only the interpretation of
11 the comprehensive plan and staff's review of the
12 LDRs and how they may relate to this, but it's
13 also the empirical evidence of what the
14 community has done with regards to marinas in
15 LDR before.
16 If you look at a marina of this size -- the
17 only reason this marina is here is because it
18 was constructed in the 1920s. It was
19 essentially grandfathered in as part of that
20 original PUD. There was actually a great deal
21 of letters written in concern over allowing it
22 to be reconfigured for 71 slips within the
23 original horseshoe configuration.
24 We searched throughout all of the records
25 in the comprehensive plan, in the City's own
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 records, for a marina that would be 71 slips or
2 larger. The only examples we found were not in
3 LDR land use categories, such as Lamb's and
4 others. Granted, they provide a greater level
5 of commercial service, but it is still not in
6 LDR.
7 An example of this is on the overhead. You
8 can go through the next several. You will see
9 the ones down in Julington Creek. She's
10 switched to the ones in the downtown area. All
11 of these have wet slips greater than 71.
12 If you move and expand this -- now, this is
13 a new zoning application for a PUD to PUD to
14 increase this to 136 slips. That will set a
15 precedent, for the first time, of putting LDR
16 and "marina" into the same land use category.
17 All right. Switch to the next one.
18 MS. ALLEN: (Complies.)
19 MR. WHEELER: T.R. mentioned the
20 Jacksonville Yacht Club. Again, an older yacht
21 club from the 1920s that is grandfathered in.
22 I can't see what you've got on the screen
23 from here.
24 This is -- the ones out at the Beach
25 Boulevard area, where you see an MDR land use,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 which is the closest land use category to LDR,
2 where you'll find a marina of this size. Some
3 of these also don't include commercial services,
4 such as fuel and those type of things.
5 Go ahead to the next one.
6 MS. ALLEN: (Complies.)
7 MR. WHEELER: So what we find, then, is --
8 the only place we can find a similar example is
9 in Queens Harbour that has almost a thousand
10 residents and a 60-slip marina that was all done
11 as part of a PUD and, again, prior to when our
12 existing comprehensive plan was enacted in
13 1990. So this will be a precedent-setting case,
14 which will reach beyond just the boundaries of
15 the Epping Forest original PUD.
16 Go to this one right here (indicating).
17 MS. ALLEN: (Complies.)
18 MR. WHEELER: Now, if we look at what's
19 required for a yacht club, all you need is two
20 acres. It doesn't say anything about water or
21 frontage or boat slips. All it says is that you
22 need two acres of uplands.
23 The applicant is not asking to add on to
24 the yacht club. All of these properties that
25 you see listed are within one mile of the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
33
1 subject site. They all have two acres in
2 frontage on the water. They're all going to be
3 next in line asking for a PUD rezoning for a,
4 quote, yacht club so that they can put a
5 136-slip marina out front.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir --
7 MR. WHEELER: So we're setting a very
8 dangerous precedent and we're not addressing, in
9 terms of the application, the more specific
10 issues of neighborhood compatibility.
11 And Bill Byers is going to summarize some
12 of those issues.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wheeler, hold on.
14 There's a question for you.
15 MR. WHEELER: Yes.
16 MR. WEBB: I apologize for delaying this,
17 but I -- again, I want clarification on this
18 1920s issue.
19 You said this -- through the Chair, sir,
20 you said that this was grandfathered in, this
21 was the Dupont estate, Dupont built the slips --
22 had the wet slips out there, whatever it was,
23 and then we -- the PUD is applied for in the
24 1920s, and this thing is granted.
25 So your position is that it was granted --
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 what you're saying, I guess, is that,
2 effectively, this is a legal nonconforming use,
3 would that be --
4 MR. WHEELER: This is a legal nonconforming
5 use. Since the adoption of the comp plan in
6 1990, there's been no other marinas located in
7 an LDR land use category --
8 MR. WEBB: All right. Well, we --
9 MR. WHEELER: -- that we could find record
10 of based on the City's own documents and your
11 comprehensive plan.
12 MR. WEBB: And, again -- thank you, sir.
13 I mean, I request that the General
14 Counsel's Office -- Shannon. Through the Chair
15 to Shannon, we're going to -- I'm going to have
16 questions about this once we get through all the
17 presentations.
18 MS. ELLER: Okay.
19 MR. WEBB: Thank you.
20 (Mr. Byers approaches the podium.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, when you get ready,
22 name and address for the record and you'll have
23 three minutes left.
24 MR. BYERS: My name is Bill Byers with
25 Genesis Group, 9250 Cypress Green Drive,
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35
1 Jacksonville, Florida.
2 The issues that we want to raise today
3 relate to health, safety and welfare related to
4 the PUD application. Predominantly, the -- one
5 thing I want to point out is the parking.
6 The parking is still a consideration on
7 this project. The concessions or the -- the
8 intent of reducing parking is a concern for the
9 residents -- for some of the residents.
10 As the exhibit that I just passed out
11 shows, the parking for special events and the
12 terminus to the marina -- the existing marina is
13 encumbered with parking through special events
14 and some other things that create a safety
15 problem for fire and emergency vehicle access to
16 the marina itself.
17 One of the things that the picture shows
18 in -- picture number 1 shows the emergency
19 vehicle access lane. Picture number 2 has a
20 different view of the vehicles parked along that
21 corridor. Picture number 3 has the parking lot
22 and the amount of spaces that are needed. And
23 picture number 4 shows San Jose Boulevard with
24 cars parked along the corridor. So parking
25 continues to be a concern for the project.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 With respect to fire safety, one of the
2 concerns that we have is -- there's a single
3 fire hydrant that runs to the end of the
4 emergency access lane. The fire hydrant is a
5 terminal end fire hydrant. It's on an
6 eight-inch line. We're concerned about the fire
7 safety and meeting the conditions for the NFPA
8 requirements for marinas.
9 We have evaluated that, and there is --
10 there's -- we believe that there's some
11 inadequate fire protection on the project, and
12 we can get into some -- I'd like to submit some
13 details to you on that, particularly with regard
14 to the fire hydrant. Where it's located, there
15 are no standpipes. It's got a lay-down area
16 that's a concern for the -- the distance from a
17 fire hydrant to the mooring facilities, and some
18 other specifics that I can outline for you.
19 The third thing that I wanted to point out
20 was the drainage concerns for the project with
21 the parking lot as it's got -- as it's
22 configured.
23 The drainage that -- we think is inadequate
24 for -- to serve the project, and there may be
25 some other opportunities to address that
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 concern, but we believe that drainage is a
2 concern considering the proximity of the parking
3 lot and the way that the drainage works within
4 the property, so . . .
5 The primary concern that we have is for the
6 parking. And, with that, I'll close.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
8 Mr. Hainline, do you want to go and close
9 now or do you want to listen to the speakers?
10 (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)
11 MR. HAINLINE: If it's okay with you, I'll
12 go ahead and go now, and then the residents,
13 slash, member speakers can just speak within
14 their one-minute time.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I gave the other side an
16 extra 45 seconds, so you have two minutes and
17 45 seconds.
18 MR. HAINLINE: Okay. Thank you.
19 T.R. Hainline, 1301 Riverplace Boulevard.
20 The planners -- first of all, I'd like
21 you -- of course, to remind you that your expert
22 planners, as well as my expert planners at the
23 Planning Commission meeting, testified we meet
24 all criteria in the code and are consistent with
25 the comprehensive plan.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 The planner who testified for the
2 opposition today said this: She said that a
3 yacht club, if it has something that's called a
4 marina in it, it's no longer a yacht club and so
5 it's not permitted anymore -- because a yacht
6 club is specifically permitted in LDR. That
7 much she said -- that much is true.
8 She said if a yacht club has a marina in
9 it, then it's not permitted anymore. Well, a
10 yacht club has to have boat slips. I'm sorry,
11 that's why it's called a yacht club.
12 Now, if you have a country club and it has
13 a bar in it -- which all country clubs do, at
14 least every one I've ever been in -- do you say
15 that that's commercial now because it has a bar
16 in it? Or a restaurant -- if a country club has
17 a restaurant in it, do you say, "Oh, a
18 restaurant, that's a commercial facility. Here
19 are all the restaurants that are in CGC, so
20 that's now a commercial facility. Oh, my gosh.
21 This restaurant has 200 seats in it, it's a
22 commercial facility"? No.
23 Country clubs have certain uses that are
24 assumed, and certainly a yacht club has a marina
25 assumed. The fact that you have a marina in a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
39
1 yacht club, which is inherent in the meaning of
2 a yacht club, doesn't mean you, all of a sudden,
3 lose your status as a yacht club and become not
4 permitted.
5 Mr. Wheeler said that the number of slips
6 makes this no longer a permitted yacht club use;
7 the number of slips makes it an unpermitted
8 commercial use. That's nowhere in the code.
9 It's nowhere in your comp plan.
10 In fact, he later said, in his own
11 testimony, that, oh, the criteria that are in
12 the code for a yacht club -- and, by the way, I
13 can cite you the provisions that are -- that
14 relate to a yacht club, 656.401(F)(2) and
15 656.305(A)(2)(10).
16 He said later those provisions don't limit
17 the number of slips in a yacht club. They
18 don't. His testimony is an invention. It's not
19 in your code or in your comprehensive plan.
20 He also said this is a legal nonconforming
21 use. That's nonsense. This is a PUD approved
22 in 1985, not 1920. It was amended as recently
23 as 1999, not 1920. And so this is a legal use.
24 It is a legal use pursuant to its PUD. It's not
25 grandfathered or nonconforming.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 There were some comments about the drive
2 down to the marina, having a bunch of cars in
3 it. I will say that more recently, within the
4 past year or so, the club has taken special
5 measures during special events to make sure that
6 drive doesn't have cars parked up and down it, a
7 barricade, there are No Parking signs all along
8 there, and there's a person posted there. If
9 you have any questions about that, I can bring
10 Mr. Nichols up.
11 The last issue is the fire code.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Your time is up.
13 MR. HAINLINE: We will meet the fire code.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: But hold on. There's a
15 question for you.
16 MR. HAINLINE: Okay.
17 MR. WEBB: Yours truly.
18 Through the Chair, Mr. Hainline, the prior
19 amendments to the PUD, did they address
20 expansion of the slips?
21 MR. HAINLINE: No. There was no prior
22 amendment that addressed expansion of the
23 slips. The slips were set in the original PUD,
24 and that's what we're asking to be set now.
25 They addressed other issues.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. WEBB: Okay. With respect to the use
2 that is the yacht club, this is not open to the
3 public; it's just open to resident members and
4 non-resident members; is that a correct
5 statement?
6 MR. HAINLINE: That is correct.
7 MR. WEBB: Okay. Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on. There's another
9 question for you.
10 Mr. Joost.
11 MR. JOOST: Actually, it's for the -- a
12 member of your team, the harbor master.
13 MR. HAINLINE: Yes.
14 MR. JOOST: Mr. Nichols.
15 MR. HAINLINE: Steve Nichols.
16 (Mr. Nichols approaches the podium.)
17 MR. JOOST: Captain Nichols, Admiral, what
18 are the -- I'm just curious, what are the hours
19 of operation of the marina?
20 MR. NICHOLS: If I might, through the
21 Chair, the -- as you know, it's a gated
22 community, and the club operates generally --
23 the hours of memberships coming into the
24 community, I believe -- this is not my area of
25 complete expertise -- is 5:00 to 11:00 p.m.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 After 11:00 p.m., at the gated community, only
2 residents and boat slip holders on file at the
3 guard gate are allowed in.
4 So the boaters who have a boat there have
5 access to their boat basically 24/7. The marina
6 hours itself -- we have staff on site -- vary
7 from winter to summer, but it's basically
8 nine-hour days. Currently, summer hours are
9 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., but then we have the
10 gated community issue that also controls access.
11 MR. JOOST: So if I'm a non-resident
12 member, I have access from 5:00 a.m. to
13 11:00 p.m.?
14 MR. NICHOLS: That is correct, I believe.
15 MR. JOOST: Okay. Thank you.
16 MR. NICHOLS: Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess I have a question
18 because I'm seeing the group that's out here.
19 If you're in support of this zoning change,
20 can I get you to please stand.
21 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Comply.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
23 If you're in opposition to the zoning
24 change, could I get you to please stand.
25 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Comply.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
2 Now, anybody that wishes to add anything
3 else, we'll give you about a minute. We'll be a
4 little loose with that, but if you want to add
5 any new testimony, please feel free to come up
6 and give your name and address for the record.
7 And if you haven't already filled out a
8 blue speaker card, make sure you do so. If you
9 have, then we have it on file.
10 Hold on a second.
11 Mr. Nichols, would you please come up.
12 There's another question for you.
13 (Mr. Nichols approaches the podium.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: And if I can get the experts
15 to just come on down to the front row because
16 I'm sure when this comes -- when we close the
17 public hearing, there's going to be some
18 questions from the council members. And rather
19 than you guys having to push through, if you
20 guys would just come up on the front row.
21 MR. JOOST: I'm sorry. One other question.
22 I was going through your log. Is there
23 anywhere in the log where it's -- where it
24 documents the average duration that somebody is
25 using their boat?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. NICHOLS: We did not track that.
2 I guess with a great deal of effort, we
3 could go back and do that.
4 What it does do is -- if a boat -- it
5 tracks not only resident boats but members who
6 do not keep their boat there that come in. And
7 our rule for that log is, if a boat went out or
8 came back during the same day --
9 MR. JOOST: That's one trip.
10 MR. NICHOLS: -- that's one trip.
11 If it came in one day and left another day,
12 then that's two trips.
13 MR. JOOST: Right.
14 MR. NICHOLS: But I can't tell you the
15 average duration of each vessel. I don't -- I
16 don't have that calculated.
17 MR. JOOST: Well, what I'm attempting to do
18 is to try to reconcile the usage with the --
19 with your logbook saying you only need a few
20 more parking spaces.
21 MR. NICHOLS: I'm sorry, I did not
22 understand the question.
23 MR. JOOST: I'm just -- what I'm attempting
24 to do is to try and reconcile the usage -- okay,
25 if there's only 18 hours a day to use it, and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 then I was looking at some other information
2 that -- generate 400 trips a day, 26 peak-hour
3 trips.
4 I was trying to figure out what the
5 duration of each trip was, and then you can kind
6 of back in to whether that backs up your log as
7 to what -- that you only need, like, three or
8 four or eight additional spaces per day.
9 MR. NICHOLS: Okay. If I could go -- if I
10 could, through the Chair, go through the
11 methodology that we used to calculate that.
12 First of all, if we come in in the morning
13 and a boat is gone because it left late at night
14 or early the next morning, we log it as a trip.
15 If a boat left at 8:00 p.m. and came back
16 at 10:00 p.m., we wouldn't know that happened,
17 so I don't have it.
18 So what we did is we took the average
19 number -- the log moves per day. The actual log
20 moves per day.
21 We added 20 percent in case we missed
22 some. So it went from two-and-a-half movements
23 per day, added 20 percent, that's another half a
24 movement. We said that's three movements. And
25 we said, then there are people who come down to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 their boat and park in the lot but they don't go
2 anywhere, so we doubled it, took that to six.
3 And then we said, we have to have a margin in
4 there. We added two more. That's how we came
5 to the number eight.
6 So we have anticipated that we didn't catch
7 everything.
8 MR. JOOST: Okay. I guess I'll just ask
9 some questions later.
10 It just struck me as a little odd because
11 in the Planning Department documents it was
12 saying regular weekend average was 25 percent,
13 and if you added 64 spaces, that would tend
14 to -- my math says you need 16 spaces. But
15 without knowing what the actual duration was --
16 MR. NICHOLS: If I might respond to that
17 very quickly.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
19 MR. NICHOLS: We're back to this marina and
20 yacht club situation.
21 I'm sure that the figures that you saw was
22 taking a commercial marina. And so if you have
23 liveaboards in your marina, there's going to be
24 at least one automobile every day for a trip and
25 many times two. If there's a couple living on a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
47
1 boat, there may be two vehicles.
2 The discrepancy between what you would see
3 in parking use in a commercial marina versus our
4 yacht club facility is the fact that we don't
5 have many of the ancillary things that you have
6 in a commercial marina. We don't have boatyard
7 service. We don't have liveaboards.
8 It's a different facility in that respect,
9 and I'm -- I can't speak for the Planning
10 Commission, but I -- or the Planning Department,
11 but I presume they took a marina and used the
12 calculations for a marina.
13 MR. JOOST: All right. Well, not to delay
14 the proceedings, I'll ask that very question
15 later.
16 Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
18 Mr. Webb, do you have a question for --
19 MR. WEBB: (Inaudible.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. If there's somebody
21 in the audience that would like to speak, make
22 your way up front, your name and address for the
23 record. You have about a minute.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Sidney Gefen. I
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48
1 reside at 6740 Epping Forest Way North.
2 I've been a resident of Epping Forest for
3 21 years now. I'm one of the original owners.
4 I'm past president of the Hampstead Riverfront
5 Villas Association.
6 Now, when I bought the building from Herb
7 Peyton, they issued a brochure. It's riverfront
8 villas. So they can't say that we weren't
9 supposed to have riverfront property or a
10 riverfront view. We knew they were going to
11 have the walkway or promenade for everybody
12 else, so if -- about five to eight foot back
13 from the bulkhead, and they wanted the use for
14 everybody else, but, however, we have had
15 riverfront views.
16 And I noticed in the booklet you have
17 here -- I'm not able to testify about the
18 natural beauty. We would not have bought the
19 place if they had ever had a marina in front of
20 our places. We spent a lot of money there.
21 I'm a resident of Jacksonville for over
22 67 years. I came over here with Captain Mason
23 to open up NAS Jacksonville. I was over in
24 Pensacola, went away from the war, built a
25 business here, have my family here, and we hope
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
49
1 to -- this council will -- the members of the
2 council will recognize what we have here.
3 We have six widows living in our building.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, your time is up.
5 MR. GEFEN: The building is 100 percent
6 against this marina.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
8 Next.
9 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman and
11 committee, my name is Bruce Homeyer. I live at
12 6756 Linford Lane, which is in Epping Forest.
13 I'm a member of the yacht club, I'm a boat
14 owner, I'm a former flag officer of the yacht
15 club, and I -- my wife and I moved to Epping
16 Forest in 2002 because of all the reasons that
17 you've heard, and the one thing that I would
18 point out at this -- at this juncture is that
19 the health club, the low density housing, the
20 eating facilities, the tennis courts, and all
21 the other amenities at Epping Forest are as they
22 will be.
23 The marina represents the only part of the
24 facility that -- at Epping Forest that can be
25 improved at this point, and I firmly believe
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 that improvement of the marina will add to
2 property values and enhance the use for all of
3 the residents and the nonmembers.
4 I urge you to approve the application.
5 Thank you very much.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
7 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am. Name and address for
9 the record, please, ma'am.
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Berrylin
11 McGehee Houston. I live at Epping Forest, 6740
12 Epping Forest Way North, in one of the condos.
13 I wrote you-all an e-mail and sent it
14 yesterday. I hope you were -- had time to read
15 it, so I won't repeat what I said in the e-mail,
16 but I do want to encourage you to really study
17 these issues.
18 We were just absolutely overwhelmed at the
19 Planning Commission meeting when they determined
20 that doubling the size of the marina only called
21 for eight extra parking spaces. How in the
22 world do you only need eight more places when
23 you have increased the number of boat slips,
24 double, is -- is preposterous.
25 We felt like our testimony was not heard,
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1 and we really urge you to read that testimony
2 from the Planning Commission if you have not
3 done so already.
4 Also, we were struck by the fact that
5 everyone who spoke in favor of expanding the
6 marina did not live on the riverfront. In fact,
7 the vast majority don't live in Epping at all.
8 There were two people who spoke at the Planning
9 Commission meeting who were Epping residents,
10 neither of which lived in the condominiums,
11 which are most impacted by this.
12 We really feel like that we have not been
13 heard. The fact that you've given us one minute
14 to speak today adds insult to injury when our
15 voices were not heard at the Planning
16 Commission.
17 We were shocked when they adopted eight
18 additional parking spaces when their own staff
19 had recommended 25.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Houston, your time is
21 up.
22 MS. HOUSTON: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir.
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, council --
2 committee, excuse me. My name is Nathan
3 Franzblau. I live at 1853 Colwood Court, in
4 Epping Forest. And I am a condo owner at 6730
5 Epping Forest Way North.
6 I am a resident of Epping. I am a condo
7 owner at Epping. I am a member of the yacht
8 club at Epping. I am a boating member of
9 Epping. I'm a tenant with a boat at Epping.
10 I'm a former flag officer, captain of the power
11 fleet at Epping. I currently serve at the
12 pleasure of the master association board, which
13 represents the residents, and have for the last
14 three and a half years. I am the president of
15 the master association.
16 I speak on behalf of Epping Forest. I am
17 passionate about the community and its
18 protection. And when I speak for the Epping
19 Forest Yacht Club, I speak to the future of
20 Epping Forest.
21 It is probably going to change residents
22 over years, and seeing the yard -- excuse me --
23 the marina itself does not empty just because
24 somebody moves away. The slips become more and
25 more limited.
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1 So the idea of increasing the slips at the
2 marina increases the opportunity for residents
3 to sell their homes and for other residents
4 outside the community to buy homes within there
5 because they do have an ability to keep their
6 boat at Epping Forest.
7 Thank you very much. I appreciate it very
8 much, the opportunity to speak. Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
10 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, take your time.
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is William L.
13 Durden. I live at 1908 Epping Forest South.
14 And I can tell you after a 63-year practice
15 in Jacksonville, Epping Forest is the most
16 highly utilized 13 acres in the county. You
17 would not believe what is crowded in that
18 13 acres.
19 I live at Epping Forest Way South, which is
20 up against the fence. Fifteen feet from my back
21 patio is Hendricks Avenue. Fortunately, there's
22 only been two cars come in through the fence so
23 far.
24 But this is not an appropriate thing. It
25 should not be converted into a commercial yacht
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1 basin. It's a residential community. It is --
2 we already have 243 residents in the community.
3 We have 13 acres at -- I don't know how many
4 that is per acre, but I would suggest it's about
5 20, and that's about as dense a use as you can
6 find.
7 I walk a lot -- before I got my new knee.
8 Hope to walk a little bit more, but there's
9 no -- not a square foot in that whole forest
10 that's not overutilized.
11 If you took a picture, you see nothing but
12 density. There's not -- nobody has a yard more
13 than 10 feet by 10 feet, with one exception, in
14 the gardens out front of the mansion. It is
15 already highly overutilized. Please do not
16 permit this.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
18 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Good evening.
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
21 I'm Barbara Jaffe, 6750 Epping Forest Way
22 North.
23 I am a resident, a condo resident of Epping
24 Forest. I've lived there for 21 years. And
25 when I moved into Epping, it was my thought that
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1 the marina was ancillary to the residents of the
2 project. Now the marina is becoming what's
3 wagging the dog here.
4 The pictures that Mr. Hainline talked about
5 that were of the parking and the parking is no
6 longer a problem going down to the fire lane,
7 they were taken two months ago, one month ago, a
8 few weeks ago. Not so. If they have changed
9 the policy of not letting people park in the
10 fire lane, it's been within the last 24 hours.
11 The thing -- in my estimate, the whole
12 thing here is about money, that there is some
13 financial issues at Epping and they'd like to
14 have more money and that's why they're doing the
15 marina, at the expense of the residents. And if
16 they would like a compromise on our part, come
17 to us and tell us that you want a food minimum
18 or that you want to raise the dues, but don't do
19 it by changing the character of our neighborhood
20 that we bought and have lived in for 20 years.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, welcome.
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you, gentlemen.
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1 My name is John Wells. I'm one of the
2 condominium owners at Epping Forest. I haven't
3 been there for 20 years, but I've been there for
4 eight. I'm a boater, like Mr. Franzblau. I
5 think boating is wonderful.
6 As for density I say bully good to the
7 folks because you know what? They're happy
8 people. We walk the sidewalks. Our children
9 play. Life is nice.
10 I think an expansion of the marina is an
11 excellent idea. This city has spent millions of
12 dollars bragging about being the River City.
13 This is a private way to expand that utilization
14 and theme.
15 Thank you very much.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
17 Ma'am.
18 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
20 My name is Lucy Jensen. I'm another condo
21 owner. My address is 6740 Epping Forest Way.
22 My concern is security, not necessarily
23 today, but if this all goes through.
24 The PUD and the explanations that I have
25 been given by the harbor master in going to some
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1 of the other meetings, they have said that there
2 will be long slips, therefore, permitting --
3 long slips would have a bigger boat, bigger
4 yacht, and would have a crew.
5 Now, as the harbor master has just said,
6 they have hours 24 hours. What we're concerned
7 about -- I am a widow. I speak for all the
8 widows at Epping, and there are a great number.
9 There are six in my building. We are concerned
10 about the crews. It's night; they come off.
11 Who is going to be able to police those people
12 and be sure that those people actually go to
13 their cars, get -- actually get off of the
14 property?
15 I thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
17 Sir.
18 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Nick Simonis.
20 I live at 12744 Cormorant Cove Lane,
21 Jacksonville, Florida.
22 I'm the power fleet captain of the power
23 fleet, and I'm for this expansion of the
24 marina.
25 I'm going to be the future of Epping
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1 Forest. I plan to buy inside Epping Forest
2 soon, and I plan to have a bigger boat one day.
3 And denying me the right to buy a bigger boat
4 and not having a crew -- I'm not planning to
5 have a crew; I drive my own boat. I will be
6 driving my new boat, and I am for this
7 expansion.
8 This is not about parking spaces. This is
9 not about manatees. This is not about fire.
10 This is about their view. That's all it is,
11 just the bottom line.
12 That's all I have to say. Thank you very
13 much.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
17 I'm Don Blaser, 6760 Linford Lane.
18 I've had a boat at Epping Forest since
19 1995, and my feeling on this is -- I'm
20 completely in support. Access to the river is
21 very important, but I'd like to respond to one
22 comment by one of my neighbors. And I know
23 she's sincere in it and I sincerely would like
24 to simply say I understand the rules at Epping,
25 and none of us are allowed to have crew that
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1 live on our boats or stay on our boats. They
2 never have been, and in the future I've been
3 told that there absolutely will not be crew
4 there. I wouldn't have it any other way because
5 I'm also a resident, and I think that's a very
6 important thing to bring out. I don't know
7 where that came from, but there is no change
8 that I've heard of.
9 I'd like to support this. I'd like to
10 hopefully be able to take my boat that barely
11 fits in and be able to get it in a larger slip,
12 and I believe most of the boats that will be
13 going -- that are already too large for their
14 slips and pose somewhat of a safety hazard will
15 be moving to that marina and the empty slips in
16 the existing marina will be filled with more
17 appropriately-sized boats.
18 And I -- you know, I think it's kind of
19 blown out of proportion as far as some of the
20 100-foot yachts. They wouldn't fit.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
25 I'm Jim Callahan, 7746 Deerwood Point
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1 Place.
2 I've been a member of Epping for 12 years.
3 I'm currently serving as the vice commodore. I
4 have kept a boat there for 12 years.
5 Epping is -- has been open for about -- a
6 little over 20 years. We still have the same
7 number of slips. During that period of time,
8 because we have an open membership and we cater
9 to our members, we have grown to be over
10 1,400 members.
11 In that length of time, you've heard --
12 you're aware that we had other designations,
13 other expansions of the PUD. When we found we
14 needed a larger fitness center to serve our
15 members, we went and spent the money for a new
16 expansion. We did the same thing for the tennis
17 people, and we enhanced the swimming area.
18 Now it's come to the point where we have
19 several hundred members that are boaters. They
20 would like to get more use out of the marina
21 than just day visits and, therefore, wait in
22 some cases two years for space. And this is all
23 about giving access to the river, I think, and
24 we're willing to do it on our own. We're just
25 asking for support of our plan because we're
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1 wanting to enhance the property for our members.
2 Thank you very much for your support.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
4 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Lawrence
6 Jaffe. I reside at 6750 Epping Forest Way, in
7 Epping Forest, right next to the marina.
8 I just would like to rebut comments that
9 are made about the view. This is not only about
10 the view. As an example, when my condo -- which
11 is right next to the gardens, right next to the
12 existing marina, or yacht, whatever you want to
13 call it, boat slips -- there was a tall palm
14 tree. When I went up there to look at what
15 was -- the construction going on, I called the
16 then project manager and said, I can't see the
17 yacht facility. The tree is blocking it. He
18 said, Oh, no. Oh, no. It's not. I said, I'll
19 meet you there at one o'clock.
20 We went up there at one o'clock and he
21 looked at it and says, Holy moly. You're
22 absolutely correct. This is what we have to
23 do -- the tree was removed at their expense.
24 So it's not just about the view; it's about
25 the residents versus the boat owners.
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1 Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
3 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Mark Gelman.
5 My address is 1824 Epping Forest Way South.
6 As you might notice, I'm slightly younger
7 than most of the people that have testified here
8 today, and I represent a lot of people in our
9 community that have young families, young
10 children. There are literally dozens of
11 children that live and play in the streets of
12 Epping Forest.
13 And as commercial as it is now and busy as
14 it is now, I oppose this marina project because
15 the end result can be nothing but increased
16 traffic in our neighborhood.
17 I have done a lot of thinking and I tried
18 to stay neutral on this subject, but, mulling it
19 over, I think that speaking against it is
20 actually the right thing to do.
21 I would also say that there has not been
22 substantial notice to the homeowners. Every
23 homeowner I've spoken with before today has been
24 against this marina project. There hasn't been
25 a vote, there hasn't been a meeting, there's
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1 been nothing. The homeowners association hasn't
2 even called this to any of the homeowners'
3 attention.
4 Be that as it may, if this council is
5 inclined to grant the PUD application, I would
6 pray that this council takes a very, very close
7 look at our community. And I pray that this
8 council, if it elects to accept the PUD
9 proposal, accepts it only under the provisions
10 as approved by the Planning Commission, and that
11 is by saving the oaks, the green areas that
12 currently exist.
13 Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
15 Is there anybody else that wishes to
16 speak?
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening,
19 Mr. Chairman.
20 I'm Bob Garces. I live at 1331 North 1st
21 Street, Jacksonville Beach, Florida.
22 Born in Jacksonville. I've been here maybe
23 30 years.
24 That was a joke. "Oh, you don't look very
25 old."
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1 I want to comment just briefly on one of
2 the statements that Mr. Wheeler made. And I'm
3 not sure I understand about PUDs and so forth
4 and what's approved and what's not, but he made
5 a statement that there has not been a marina
6 approved for more than 70 slips for X number of
7 years.
8 Well, since I was not able to get my boat
9 in Epping, I had to buy a slip down at
10 Harbor Town, which is a brand-new marina there
11 at Atlantic Boulevard and the Intracoastal. The
12 waiting list is just years to get there. I
13 don't know where he got his research. It's not
14 a commercial marina. There's no facilities
15 there as far as gas, repairs, or haul-outs.
16 There are beautiful condos around there, you
17 know, similar to the condos at Epping. They're
18 just magnificent, on the Intracoastal.
19 So I just want to refute what he said about
20 that and just want to let you know I'm very much
21 in favor of the expansion of the marina, yacht
22 club at Epping Forest.
23 Thank you very much.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
25 Is there anybody else that wishes to
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1 speak?
2 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Before I close the public
4 hearing, is there anybody that had anything they
5 wanted to add because they were shorted of time,
6 that was not said?
7 MS. DURDEN: (Inaudible.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Not you. You got your
9 15 minutes.
10 Anybody else?
11 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you very much.
13 We'll close the public hearing.
14 Mr. Shad, did you wish to speak before or
15 after we read the amendments?
16 MR. SHAD: I'll say something first.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
18 MR. SHAD: Committee, you know, I just want
19 to -- I can tell by the questions that you
20 asked -- and it's always nice to have an
21 attorney on the committee -- thanks, Mr. Webb --
22 that, you know, you take careful and thorough
23 consideration, you know, on this application
24 because it is emotional and it is complex in
25 some regards. It has some aspects to it that
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1 were not -- it's not cookie-cutter, and I know
2 you'll do that.
3 I'm going to voice -- although I won't be
4 voting today, I'll be voting in two or three
5 weeks on this, but I wanted to voice my -- where
6 I'm at on this after we hear some more testimony
7 and evidence, but I would just -- you know, you
8 vote this up or down on the merits.
9 You know, I know often we'll look at what
10 the district councilperson thinks on this. And
11 I'll tell you, I might lean one way or the
12 other, and I'll -- I will vocalize that, but,
13 you know, I just encourage you-all -- it's a
14 tough one. I can tell by the tone you're taking
15 that you all understand that, and just have
16 thoughtful, careful consideration and vote this
17 up or down on the merits.
18 And I think I'd like to see the Planning
19 Department give their -- is that what we're
20 going to do, go over -- and if someone from the
21 Planning Department could summarize the Planning
22 Commission's discussions and the outcome, and
23 then if someone could summarize the report.
24 I look forward to our conversation.
25 Thank you.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crofts, do you want to
2 start with the amendment or do you want to start
3 with Mr. Shad's request?
4 MR. CROFTS: Let me read into the record
5 the amendment, and then I'll try to amplify -- I
6 think the amendment will help to kind of lead
7 into the Planning Commission discussion and
8 where it ended up, where they --
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let us get in the
10 proper order.
11 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
12 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
14 and seconded.
15 Okay. Go, sir.
16 MR. CROFTS: Mr. Chairman, members of the
17 committee, there were five conditions added to
18 the PUD and they're as follows:
19 Condition number 1, "The development shall
20 be subject to the original legal description
21 dated July 21st, 2008."
22 Number 2, "The development shall be subject
23 to the original written description dated July
24 16th, 2008."
25 Number 3, "The development shall be subject
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1 to the original site plan dated July 15th,
2 2008."
3 Number 4, "Tree removal and landscaping
4 shall be subject to Part 12 of the zoning code
5 and the review and approval of the Planning and
6 Development Department."
7 And number 5, "The development shall be
8 subject to the revised parking plan dated
9 September 9th, 2008, which shall supersede any
10 conflicting parking requirements in the written
11 description."
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Hold on there,
13 sir.
14 Mr. Hainline, are you in agreement with
15 those five amendments?
16 MR. HAINLINE: Yes, sir.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
18 MR. CROFTS: The Planning Department's role
19 in the Planning Commission meeting constituted
20 several things.
21 First, the whole issue of this is a boat
22 siting facility, whether it was a marina or not,
23 and it basically boils down to the nature of the
24 scale. And as indicated in our report, we have
25 indicated that this particular yacht club is, in
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1 essence, not a legally grandfathered use but
2 actually a legal conforming use, consistent with
3 the comprehensive plan, specifically as a
4 secondary and supporting use. So there is no
5 doubt, in my our mind -- first of all, we feel
6 that it is consistent with the comprehensive
7 plan as it is as an accessory use to a
8 residential development.
9 Also, as it relates to the manatee issue,
10 we felt like -- again, I pointed out at the
11 Planning Commission meeting that the Manatee
12 Protection Plan is part of the comprehensive
13 plan, adopted as part of the background and
14 information -- secondary information to the
15 comprehensive plan, and we feel that -- at this
16 point, that we have done everything consistent
17 with the Manatee Protection Plan and the
18 comprehensive plan in reviewing this particular
19 facility. There are certainly other agencies at
20 the state, regional, and federal level that will
21 actually go into, ultimately, the approval of
22 this particular facility.
23 Also, the third thing, I think, that was
24 important to us from the Department's standpoint
25 relates to parking. And based on the testimony
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1 that was provided by the dock master at the
2 facility in consideration of the -- and also in
3 consideration of the landscaping, the trees, the
4 natural habitat of the area, based on those
5 factors, the commission, over opposition by the
6 staff, went with the reduced parking
7 requirement, which I think was -- we had
8 suggested or recommended 25 additional parking
9 spaces, consistent with the original PUD, and
10 the Planning Commission went -- overruled us and
11 basically said that eight parking spaces would
12 be sufficient to accommodate the facility.
13 And this was done in light of the fact that
14 parking was brought up to be more of an issue
15 around significant events, weddings, parties,
16 and special -- other social occasions more so
17 than a constant type parking issue. It was more
18 around special events at the facility that
19 occurred maybe once a month or a little bit more
20 frequent or less frequent than that.
21 So that sort of summarizes, you know, I
22 think, what we, as a department, felt were
23 important issues. And we felt that -- of course
24 we recommended approval, again, with the
25 conditions.
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1 And that concludes my part of the report.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crofts, is the Planning
3 Department in agreement with the reduction of
4 the parking from the initial report or is that
5 in conflict?
6 MR. CROFTS: The Department still maintains
7 its position of 25 parking spaces at the
8 facility. We did at the Planning Commission
9 meeting, and that's still our position.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
11 Mr. Shad, did that answer your question?
12 MR. SHAD: Yes.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb, you were first.
14 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 Actually, my questions had to do more with
16 the bill, so -- we're on the amendment. I don't
17 know if we're in proper posture for --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: We're on the amendment, yes.
19 MR. WEBB: All right. Fair enough. I'll
20 come back.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions on the
22 amendment?
23 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you on the amendment or
25 the bill?
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: (Inaudible.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: If nothing else on the
3 amendment, all in -- Mr. Shad.
4 MR. SHAD: Thank you.
5 I think the amendment is so tight in to the
6 bill, I'd -- it's hard to -- I would prefer,
7 committee, just have our discussions because
8 it's hard to imagine the amendment outside of
9 the bill, so it would be my preference to --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I think we can move
11 the amendments, and you can always add more
12 amendments to it. But since the applicant is in
13 favor of the set five, we can start with that
14 and then either add or subtract or do whatever.
15 MR. SHAD: Well, if we are on the
16 amendment, then I would, I guess, speak to that
17 and say that I -- you know, is there anything
18 between eight and twenty-five?
19 And I don't know who I'm going to call up,
20 I'll check here, but that's a pretty dramatic
21 drop. I don't know, so -- Mr. Hainline, who
22 best would be able to speak to the -- how, in
23 saving the trees -- I can see losing a few
24 parking spaces to save the trees, but how did
25 we -- how did it take 17 spaces in order to save
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1 the trees?
2 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Shad, I'll respond in
3 this way, and then if either Mr. Nichols or
4 Mr. Hallock, our civil engineer, have anything
5 to add, they certainly can step forward.
6 We actually went through several -- a
7 couple of iterations, the efforts to save the
8 trees. This was in discussions with some
9 residents to the south, including Mr. Gelman,
10 but including others who I'm aware had e-mailed
11 you all but are not here. And they expressed a
12 desire to save the trees at the south end of the
13 parking lot area, which makes sense because
14 that's where their homes are, which we did, and
15 we lost a few spaces from that effort.
16 And then they referenced a desire to save
17 one tree that's over by the tennis courts, that
18 shades the tennis courts. We saved that and
19 lost a couple of spaces.
20 But the one that really affected the
21 parking count was a very large oak that is smack
22 in the middle of the parking area. I mean, I
23 could point it out on a site plan if you want me
24 to, but it is in the northwest area of the
25 parking lot and it's a large tree that's there
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1 now. And those residents expressed a desire to
2 save that tree, but because it is right in the
3 travel lane, several changes needed to be made
4 to the overall configuration, and that resulted
5 in a -- in the next jump, which was a fairly
6 significant jump down to the eight parking
7 spaces.
8 In our discussions with them, they kept
9 saying to us that the marina doesn't take up
10 spaces. That confirmed our own data, so we
11 offered that as an alternative to the Planning
12 Commission, which they accepted, but I want to
13 repeat that we will accept -- and we originally
14 proposed and will accept today the requirement
15 to do 25 spaces.
16 Our proposal of an alternative was only
17 done as an attempted accommodation to some of
18 the residents who live on the south end there.
19 We believe eight spaces is enough, but if
20 this committee feels that we need 25 and that
21 the trees are an appropriate trade-off, that was
22 our original application, we're willing to go
23 forward with that.
24 MR. SHAD: No. I want, like, 15 and save
25 the trees.
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1 MR. HAINLINE: Say again.
2 MR. SHAD: I want 15 and save the trees,
3 but that's --
4 MR. HAINLINE: Fifteen and save the trees?
5 Well, actually, respectfully, if you-all
6 specify a number of spaces and then a specific
7 grouping of trees, we can -- we can probably
8 tell you pretty quickly tonight whether that is
9 achievable.
10 I mean, as an example, if you say we want
11 to save those trees at the south end of the lot,
12 I think we can --
13 MR. SHAD: Okay. Maybe that's something --
14 should this committee desire to go forward,
15 maybe that's something I could work on with
16 interested parties between now and council, so
17 I --
18 MR. HAINLINE: We'd be happy to work with
19 you on that between now and council, yes, sir.
20 MR. SHAD: To me, it seems like there --
21 Shannon, go ahead.
22 MS. ELLER: I apologize for interrupting.
23 We do not have a public hearing scheduled
24 for Tuesday night at City Council, so our
25 recommendation is that floor amendments are not
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1 appropriate because there wouldn't be an
2 opportunity for a public hearing for discussion.
3 So if there is a way to craft a condition
4 whereby the parking plan with specific
5 requirements could be submitted to the Planning
6 Department for review and approval as part of
7 this discussion tonight, if that's possible,
8 that would be a good suggestion. Otherwise,
9 we're going to run a quasi-judicial procedural
10 risk on Tuesday.
11 MR. SHAD: Would we be able to add that and
12 then -- would it just be the Planning
13 Department? Could it be the district
14 councilperson to sign off on that or not?
15 MS. ELLER: We could put that condition on
16 there. That does raise some of our issues with
17 regard to a single council member having a veto
18 power. And we've been challenged on that most
19 recently in a litigation case that has not yet
20 to be resolved, so I'd caution against it just
21 because it could be challenged.
22 MR. HAINLINE: But --
23 MR. SHAD: Could I suggest that we add a
24 condition to give the planning director,
25 Mr. Thoburn, the ability to amend this
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1 application somewhere between eight and
2 twenty-five spaces at his discretion if he
3 thinks it will serve the purpose of both saving
4 trees and providing adequate parking if the
5 committee would entertain that?
6 MS. ELLER: (Inaudible.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Shad.
8 Mr. Webb, you're next up unless somebody
9 wants to move --
10 MR. WEBB: I'll move that amendment.
11 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: That amendment's been moved
13 and seconded, so we are on the Shad amendment --
14 we are on the Shad -- I'm sorry, the Webb
15 amendment.
16 Any discussion on the Webb amendment?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Applicant, are you fine with
19 that amendment?
20 MR. HAINLINE: We will accept that
21 amendment, yes, sir.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
23 MR. HAINLINE: If I understand it, it's
24 that Mr. Thoburn would determine the appropriate
25 number of spaces in light of the demonstrated
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1 need and the presence of specimen trees?
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
3 MR. HAINLINE: Yes. We would accept that.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: That's the amendment as I
5 understand it.
6 Any further discussion on the Shad
7 amendment?
8 MR. WEBB: (Indicating.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb.
10 MR. WEBB: I just have a question, if I
11 may --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
13 MR. WEBB: -- for Ms. Durden.
14 Ms. Durden, is there anything you want to
15 add -- you want to opine as to the Webb
16 amendment?
17 MS. DURDEN: Thank you very much.
18 Through the Chair, there is. I have a
19 question about -- specifically about the
20 September 9th site plan because that's been
21 referred to and that is on this amendment.
22 When we counted the spaces, we found that
23 there were 134 existing spaces, plus six
24 handicapped spaces. That would mean that
25 there's 140 out there today.
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1 This document appears to say that they're
2 adding eight, and that would be for a total of
3 142 spaces. I would just ask the committee to
4 please clarify what the current number is today
5 and -- so that if we're adding eight, we know
6 where we're starting from, because our count is
7 very different than what shows on here.
8 Thank you. I appreciate that.
9 And I would only ask that in regard to the
10 actual -- I don't know what you're calling this,
11 the Shad amendment, between eight and
12 twenty-five. Would there -- would you please
13 consider some way of adding to that so that the
14 residents could have notice of what that is
15 before a final decision was made by Mr. Thoburn.
16 Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
18 Mr. Webb.
19 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 I'd like to modify my amendment to provide
21 for that clarification as to what the exact
22 number of spots and -- so as to -- and I'd move
23 that.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I think the amendment
25 was an additional eight to twenty-five.
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1 MR. WEBB: Eight to twenty-five, with the
2 clarification as to what the actual number of
3 spots is.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
5 MR. WEBB: Is that -- that's fine. Go
6 ahead.
7 MR. SHAD: Mr. Hainline, is there any
8 dispute on the current number of spaces? Would
9 you -- do you happen to agree with the 134 plus
10 the six handicapped?
11 It would be easy if you agreed to that. If
12 you don't agree to that, let's find out now.
13 MR. HAINLINE: That's close. I think we
14 can agree that that's a good --
15 MR. SHAD: It could be at a minimum
16 142 plus six handicapped.
17 MR. HAINLINE: That the ultimate --
18 MR. SHAD: At a minimum, the planning
19 director is going to add eight.
20 MR. HAINLINE: And it would be -- what are
21 your numbers again?
22 MR. SHAD: One hundred thirty-four and six,
23 which would go to 142 and six.
24 MR. HAINLINE: I think -- we can agree to
25 that, yes, sir.
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1 MR. SHAD: Okay. Thank you.
2 MR. WEBB: That's my amendment.
3 DR. GAFFNEY: I'll second that.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion on
5 the Webb amendment?
6 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion on
8 the five amendments before that?
9 MR. JOOST: (Indicating.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost.
11 Actually, let's just go ahead and -- I'm
12 sorry, go ahead. If you're going to talk to the
13 five amendments --
14 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So we're going to
16 move the six amendments, and there's no further
17 discussion on any of those amendments.
18 All in favor say aye.
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any opposed?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
23 approved the six amendments.
24 Now we're on the bill. Someone move the
25 bill as amended.
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1 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
2 MR. JOOST: Second.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
4 seconded as amended.
5 Discussion on the bill, Mr. Joost, followed
6 by Mr. Webb.
7 MR. JOOST: Ms. Durden, a couple of
8 questions for you.
9 (Ms. Durden approaches the podium.)
10 MR. JOOST: This is in relationship to your
11 expert witness. In reading in my zoning book
12 here in the summary, it says, "In summary, the
13 site of the proposed new marina basin is
14 appropriate for the proposed additional boat
15 slips in part due to the site's depth which
16 requires no dredging, the absence of sea grass
17 beds, native aquatic vegetation, and other
18 highly-productive marine habitat within the
19 site, the absence of high manatee use or
20 mortality at or near the site, and the fact that
21 the owner holds the uplands adjacent to the
22 proposed new marina basin."
23 That seems to be in direct conflict with
24 your expert's testimony.
25 MS. DURDEN: Actually, it's just taken
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1 verbatim from the applicant's application. They
2 were just conclusory statements in the
3 application that were transcribed right into the
4 staff report.
5 If you take a look at tab number -- in the
6 booklet that is labeled Opposition to the
7 Expansion of the Marina, at tab number -- at tab
8 number 4, you will see that straight out of the
9 2006 Manatee Protection Plan it shows that
10 Christopher Point has one of the very highest
11 manatee sightings in the entire -- if you look
12 at that list -- in the entire lower St. Johns.
13 We're not talking about just Jacksonville.
14 We're now talking about Clay County and on
15 further down -- well, up -- technically up the
16 river towards Orlando.
17 So to suggest that this is not a site of
18 high manatees is in contradiction with the
19 City's own Manatee Protection Plan.
20 I don't -- maybe that helps, but -- as far
21 as the manatees, but that is exactly what it
22 says. And we're not -- we're not making these
23 figures up. It's been adopted and reviewed by
24 this City as well as the State.
25 So I think that, yes -- are they going to
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1 do any dredging? At this point, they don't
2 think so. That's what they've said, but it's --
3 who knows what will actually happen or what will
4 end up being required once the State finally
5 gets to the point of reviewing the environmental
6 resource permit. It's --
7 MR. JOOST: So you basically would take
8 issue with the Planning Department's
9 characterization of the marine habitat in --
10 MS. DURDEN: Yes.
11 MR. JOOST: -- that area?
12 MS. DURDEN: Thank you.
13 MR. JOOST: Hold on. I've got some more
14 for you.
15 "The 2000 Comprehensive Plan recognizes
16 the need for additional boating facilities."
17 You're in Zone 15, which is designated for
18 new boat facilities --
19 MS. DURDEN: That's correct.
20 MR. JOOST: -- is that correct?
21 MS. DURDEN: Zone 15, yes, that is correct.
22 MR. JOOST: Okay. To me, this is kind of
23 like what it boils down to: What is the level
24 of reasonable expectation for the homeowners?
25 And I'm going to ask Mr. Hainline a similar
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1 question.
2 Given that the parking issue could be
3 worked out, is it a reasonable expectation for a
4 homeowner never to expect the marine facility to
5 expand?
6 MS. DURDEN: It's my opinion that in this
7 particular location it's not consistent with the
8 comprehensive plan to allow that marina to
9 expand, and so the neighbors and the
10 landowners --
11 MR. JOOST: I'm just talking about the
12 private property owner that bought a condo
13 there.
14 MS. DURDEN: That's right.
15 MR. JOOST: And is it a -- and who you're
16 representing.
17 Is it a reasonable expectation never to
18 expect the marina business -- whatever you want
19 to call it -- to expand?
20 MS. DURDEN: It is very reasonable, and the
21 reasons that it is reasonable is because of the
22 intensity that exists at Epping.
23 MR. JOOST: You mean it's unreasonable.
24 MS. DURDEN: Now, we will hear -- I know
25 that Epping Yacht Club maintains a 10-foot strip
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1 of land along the promenade and the bulkhead.
2 Throughout the original PUD -- and I know
3 that Mr. Hainline raised the original PUD
4 today.
5 Throughout the original PUD, it talks about
6 that promenade and the views that are going to
7 be afforded as a result of that promenade. That
8 promenade was kept in -- the ten feet was kept
9 so that the condominium owners couldn't restrict
10 the other residents of the Epping community from
11 going and transversing along that ten feet.
12 The original PUD is replete. I actually
13 have numerous places --
14 MR. JOOST: You're saying the original
15 seawall, if you will, which Epping Forest owns
16 today, was actually retained by them at their
17 request so it couldn't impede other condo owners
18 from impeding each other's views or --
19 MS. DURDEN: It could -- that's right, or
20 from prohibiting anybody from -- residents and
21 club members from coming down there and enjoying
22 the view that is now not going to exist after
23 the marina is expanded.
24 The whole point of the promenade had
25 nothing to do with who was going to maintain the
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1 bulkhead. The whole point of the promenade and
2 the 10-foot strip turns out to be the riparian
3 rights, and -- according to Mr. Hainline --
4 should -- therefore prohibits the owners of the
5 condominiums from having --
6 MR. JOOST: For people such as myself that
7 are not well versed in legalese, what does
8 "riparian" mean?
9 MS. DURDEN: "Riparian," well, that's a
10 really complicated -- but just put simply, a
11 riparian right is the right of the owner who
12 owns the piece of land that butts up against the
13 water. Okay? And if you don't -- if you own
14 that piece of land that butts right up against
15 the water, then you have the riparian rights,
16 and the riparian rights reach out into the
17 water.
18 That's very simple, and -- but, you know,
19 we've heard that because we -- because the yacht
20 club owns the 10-foot strip --
21 MR. JOOST: They're claiming the riparian
22 rights.
23 MS. DURDEN: They have all the riparian
24 rights and the rest of the condominium owners
25 have nothing. But my point is that in the
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1 original PUD, the purpose of that strip was not
2 about being able to expand the marina there.
3 And so I go back to what your original
4 statement was, about the expectation. Yes, it
5 is a reasonable expectation for them not to
6 expect a double-the-size marina to exist in
7 front of their homes.
8 MR. JOOST: Thank you.
9 Mr. Hainline.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on.
11 Ms. Durden, I've just got a quick
12 question.
13 MS. DURDEN: Yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: If that ten foot was held so
15 nobody else -- so the people that live right
16 there on the waterfront couldn't stop anybody
17 from going by, why wasn't it that it was owned
18 by the homeowners association as opposed to
19 being owned by the yacht club?
20 MS. DURDEN: The point is that they also --
21 because the bulkhead goes all the way along from
22 in front of the marina, the existing marina,
23 that it goes -- they felt that it was the
24 right -- the right decision, that they should
25 also -- if they're going to deal with that
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1 bulkhead, they should deal with this other
2 bulkhead.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: So you do agree --
4 MS. DURDEN: The choice wasn't -- the point
5 is that it wasn't about who's going to have the
6 riparian rights, who's going to be able to
7 expand the marina. The point was to keep it in
8 the, quote, public arena so that people would
9 have the right.
10 Well, they've basically -- people would
11 have the right to stroll. That's why it's
12 called the promenade.
13 Throughout the PUD, the original PUD, it
14 talks about the views, it talks about the
15 promenade, it talks about -- even about how the
16 condominiums themselves, the design of the
17 condominiums, the shape is so that the views
18 will be significantly increased, this kind of
19 modified U shape.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: But, Ms. Durden, my point is
21 that there is a cost associated with owning that
22 10-foot piece because you are responsible for
23 the bulkhead.
24 MS. DURDEN: That's possible, but again,
25 bringing back to what you heard --
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that possible or
2 definite?
3 MS. DURDEN: No, it's not definite.
4 We've never been approached -- we've never
5 once been approached to aid in the maintenance
6 of that bulkhead. We were never approached to
7 say, look, either we're going to have to expand
8 the marina or you need to help us pay for the
9 bulkhead to be refurbished. That's never
10 been -- we would definitely go for the
11 bulkhead. There's no doubt.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
13 Go ahead.
14 MR. JOOST: Good questions.
15 Mr. Hainline, a couple of questions for
16 you.
17 (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)
18 MR. JOOST: Let's say I was a -- I'm an
19 original homeowner and I did my homework and I
20 looked at the original PUD, and in that PUD it
21 said not to exceed 71 boat slips. Why would it
22 not be a reasonable expectation of mine to keep
23 the marina at 71 boat slips as originally
24 intended when I bought my condo?
25 MR. HAINLINE: For the simple reason,
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1 Mr. Joost, that zonings can be changed. And
2 that is not only a legal point, but it should be
3 clear to anyone who might investigate that a PUD
4 can be amended. And indeed here, as I
5 mentioned, the PUD has been amended six times,
6 and indeed it was amended once to enlarge the
7 footprint for the condominiums. So the
8 condominium owners have been a beneficiary of at
9 least one of those amendments.
10 So anyone investigating, particularly more
11 recently -- I mean, the history of the
12 amendments -- let me list the dates of the
13 amendments because this would be relevant as
14 well.
15 There was an amendment right off the bat in
16 '85. There was an amendment in '86. There was
17 an amendment in '88. There was an amendment in
18 '89 and in '99. So anyone who bought in '86 or
19 '87, '88, '89, there had already been amendments
20 to the PUD as of those early dates.
21 So when you buy in a PUD, as a legal point,
22 as in -- and as in a point -- if anyone calls
23 down to the Planning Department and says, can a
24 PUD be changed, the answer would be yes, someone
25 can apply for a PUD amendment and it can be
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1 changed, as you-all know because you amend
2 plenty of PUDs. It happens all the time.
3 MR. JOOST: Okay. The --
4 MR. HAINLINE: I won't get into the --
5 okay.
6 MR. JOOST: Going along that same line of
7 reasoning, when the additional facilities were
8 built with the new PUDs, what was the impact to
9 parking?
10 MR. HAINLINE: The parking, generally, was
11 not changed.
12 Now, I say that generally. And, in fact, I
13 spent Monday morning looking through the
14 Planning Department files on that very issue.
15 Remember, we're going back to 1985, which
16 is, by my math, 23 years ago. And the Planning
17 Department has done a great job for as long as
18 I've been practicing, but the record keeping has
19 been improved over the years. I'll state it in
20 a positive way. And the file contains not only
21 references and documents relating to these
22 amendments, but, for example, there's one whole
23 file that just has blueprint plans in it that
24 are modifications to the PUD, which, at that
25 time, were done by the Planning Commission.
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1 The code has changed over the years. It
2 used to be that the Planning Commission could
3 make certain changes, which they still can do,
4 but the criteria for that have changed.
5 What I'm saying to you is there's a whole
6 file of blueprint plans of the layout of the
7 parking and the yacht club area, and written in
8 red pencil on those plans it says, "PC
9 approved," blank. So that might be a
10 modification to this or a modification to that
11 that was approved by the Planning Commission.
12 I submit that it is virtually impossible to
13 determine exactly what changes to the parking
14 area may or may not have accompanied what
15 changes to the recreation facilities because
16 there were so many -- I guess what I can just
17 say, out-of-council changes by the Planning
18 Commission and presumably by staff. None of
19 them inappropriate, all legal at that time.
20 It's just the -- again, the file is a challenge,
21 I guess is what I should say.
22 MR. JOOST: Does the Planning Department
23 have any clarification on what the impact of the
24 prior PUDs were to the parking facilities? Did
25 they add parking spots, did they reduce parking
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1 spots, or was there no impact? And do you have
2 any idea as to what the magnitude of the change
3 was?
4 MR. KELLY: Through the Chair to
5 Councilmember Joost, the -- not familiar with
6 the parking requirements.
7 Obviously, the parking requirements haven't
8 changed, so to speak. The parking requirements
9 for the club, parking requirements for the
10 marina, from what was proposed as the original
11 plan and what was built I'm assuming went
12 through the PUD verification process, the site
13 plan was approved at council, and that was then
14 reviewed in the civil plan review, and
15 concurrence at that time was that it met the
16 requirements -- the parking requirements under
17 the PUD, but the additional uses as -- I don't
18 know the timing and when -- the whole history --
19 would probably need a time line of what has
20 occurred on the property since the original
21 adoption, but I don't have that information.
22 MR. JOOST: Okay. Because -- well, I guess
23 it would concern me if they're adding facilities
24 prior and taking parking away and then adding
25 more -- you know, what -- how do you address the
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1 adequacy of the parking with all these
2 additions?
3 The homeowners association -- it's been
4 alleged that the homeowners association was not
5 notified and there was -- I mean, it would help
6 me as a councilperson trying to make up my mind
7 if I knew what the stance of the homeowners
8 association was, of Epping Forest, or if there
9 are multiple homeowners associations.
10 How do you react to the allegation, I
11 guess, that the homeowners association was not
12 notified and there were no votes taken?
13 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Joost, I would answer
14 that this way: First of all, club management
15 started meeting with the condominium owners
16 about the proposed expansion of the marina a
17 year -- about a year ago, in late 2007. So
18 certainly they were aware of the change as much
19 as a year ago.
20 When the application was being put
21 together, I contacted Ms. Durden because I knew
22 she was the lawyer for the condominium owners.
23 I said, We're getting ready to file; be happy to
24 meet, et cetera. I sent her a copy of the
25 application. That was late July.
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1 And as of that date, the club -- Epping
2 Forest Yacht Club placed on its website a
3 special page that had a copy of the application,
4 a question-and-answer document, a more detailed
5 PowerPoint presentation on it, as well as the
6 environmental permit applications for the plan.
7 So that was all put on the Epping Forest
8 website.
9 Then a letter was sent to all residents and
10 club members saying, We're going to -- we're
11 proposing to expand the marina. If you want to
12 know more about it, go to your Epping Forest
13 website, all the information is there.
14 We then -- as I mentioned previously, we
15 had additional conversations in early September
16 with additional residents to the south. That
17 was Mr. Gelman, and that's when we talked about
18 the trees and the alternative plan.
19 Regarding the associations, you heard from
20 the president of the master association. That
21 was Mr. Franzblau. The president of the master
22 association stood up here and spoke in support
23 of this PUD amendment.
24 There are numerous associations, individual
25 associations. In fact, each condominium has its
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1 own association, each condominium group. So
2 there are numerous associations in there.
3 I think my response to you, Mr. Joost,
4 would be that by sending the letter to every
5 resident and every member, making all the
6 information available on the website, meeting
7 with the condo owners almost a year ago, and
8 taking on all comers as we got calls while the
9 thing was pending, including the residents to
10 the south, I would disagree with that comment
11 and say that we went above and beyond what the
12 code requires to make sure that everyone knows
13 about it.
14 And, by the way, we did post the signs.
15 And when Ms. Durden raised the signage question,
16 we went and posted new signs. So, I mean, we --
17 we did everything.
18 MR. JOOST: So you wouldn't agree with that
19 assertion?
20 MR. HAINLINE: No, sir.
21 MR. JOOST: One last question to the
22 Planning Department concerning the Manatee
23 Protection Plan.
24 If we're under a moratorium right now to
25 not build -- it says, "No new marinas or docks
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1 may be permitted until the State of Florida
2 lifts the moratorium due to recent manatee
3 deaths."
4 How is it -- are we allowed to approve
5 zoning for an additional marina when the State
6 of Florida has a moratorium on this type of
7 construction?
8 MR. CROFTS: I think there are two levels
9 here in terms of review. One is in terms of
10 consistency with the plan itself and the
11 parameters within that plan, and it talks about
12 where those particular facilities may be located
13 in concert to the Manatee Protection Plan, but
14 in addition to that -- so we've looked at it in
15 terms of the comprehensive plan, but in addition
16 to that, based on other information, other
17 things that have evolved as it relates to
18 conditions along the river and relating to
19 manatees, that there is additional situations.
20 So I think we're all aware of that, we know
21 that, but we looked at it from the standpoint --
22 I guess the City of Jacksonville, in terms of
23 consistency with the comprehensive plan, which
24 is one level of review, and then there's another
25 level of issues that are also brought forth by
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1 further and higher review agencies, such as the
2 State.
3 MR. HAINLINE: May I respond specifically
4 to that?
5 MR. JOOST: Yes, sir, please.
6 MR. HAINLINE: It was stated at the
7 Planning Commission by Dylan Reingold of the
8 General Counsel's Office that there is no
9 moratorium on manatee permits.
10 The Planning Department's report refers to
11 that, but if you call the DEP today, which we
12 did, the Department of Environmental Protection,
13 processing those permits, what they say is that
14 they consider permits on a case-by-case basis.
15 And I would also add --
16 MR. JOOST: Well, it says here -- it
17 says, "Under the" -- and I'm just quoting from
18 my Land Use and Zoning book right here prepared
19 by the Planning Department.
20 MR. HAINLINE: Yes, sir.
21 MR. JOOST: It says, "Under the Manatee
22 Protection Plan, no new marinas or docks may be
23 permitted until the State of Florida lifts the
24 moratorium due to the number of manatee deaths
25 occurring within Duval County waterways."
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1 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Joost, we were curious
2 about that sentence in the Planning Department's
3 recommendation as well, so we called the Florida
4 Department of Environmental Protection, and I
5 have the name of the person that we spoke to.
6 There is no current moratorium. They are
7 reviewing applications on a case-by-case basis.
8 We learned of that information, and I
9 specifically recall Mr. Reingold confirming that
10 fact to the Planning Commission in response to a
11 similar question.
12 The other thing I would point out,
13 consistent with what Mr. Crofts said, we have
14 applications pending before the State DEP,
15 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, with all the
16 agencies inputting. We submitted those to the
17 Planning Department.
18 They asked for the -- environmental
19 agencies asked for additional information. We
20 submitted that as well.
21 All of this information was submitted to
22 the Planning Department regarding manatee
23 impacts and compliance with the Manatee
24 Protection Plan. That's when your Planning
25 Department, reviewing this, concluded that we
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1 meet the criteria under your boat facilities
2 siting plan and under the Manatee Protection
3 Plan.
4 We are working our permits through the
5 State's permitting agencies, DEP, Corps of
6 Engineers, et cetera. They'll make whatever
7 determinations they're going to make about that,
8 and -- and so, consistent with what Mr. Crofts
9 said about other reviewing authorities,
10 moratorium or not, we certainly have those
11 applications pending and we'll get
12 determinations from them.
13 MR. JOOST: Okay. And then -- I appreciate
14 you giving me the time, Mr. Chairman.
15 Going down, again, the road of reasonable
16 expectations and over time PUDs change, as a
17 resident, what level of assurance do I have
18 that, say, in -- a couple of years later from
19 now you won't amend the PUD to allow for the
20 sale of fuel at the marina?
21 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Joost, I -- first of
22 all, there certainly is no plan to do that, no
23 one has ever said anything to me about that, and
24 I know that there's no plan to do that.
25 And there are -- we talked about what is a
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1 yacht club and what is a commercial marina, and
2 what you heard me say up here is that the
3 distinction between a yacht club and a
4 commercial marina -- and, by the way, there are
5 definitions in the zoning code for these things,
6 but the difference between a yacht club and a
7 commercial marina --
8 You heard me say earlier, commercial
9 marinas in the CGC comp plan category have
10 fueling, haul-out, repair. I would suggest to
11 you and I would agree that fueling, haul-out,
12 repair, those are the kinds of characteristics
13 of use that take it into a commercial marina as
14 opposed to just the number of slips.
15 There's nothing in either -- there's
16 nothing that says the number of slips takes it
17 into the category of a commercial marina.
18 So what is the reasonable expectation? I
19 mean, we would suggest to you that any change to
20 fueling, haul-out, those kinds of things that
21 are characteristic of a commercial marina may
22 require a comprehensive plan amendment, which is
23 a whole 'nother ballgame from an amendment to a
24 PUD.
25 MR. JOOST: All right. I appreciate your
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1 time in answering my questions.
2 MR. HAINLINE: Thank you.
3 MR. JOOST: Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: We are two hours into this,
5 and we normally take a break for our court
6 reporter. I guess the question is, Diane, how
7 are you doing?
8 (Discussion held off the record.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Webb.
10 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11 We had some discussion -- some questions
12 about riparian rights. And, again, I think that
13 this -- this application, I think, is what it
14 all comes down to, in my view, and I have some
15 questions for the General Counsel's Office.
16 There was a reference made -- it was one of
17 the individuals who spoke as an expert on behalf
18 of the opposition to this -- on the requirement
19 for a yacht club, that it have -- it needs two
20 acres of upland; is that correct?
21 MS. ELLER: I don't know. I'll have to
22 defer to --
23 MR. WEBB: We need to find that out.
24 MS. ELLER: -- the Planning Department on
25 those performance standards.
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1 MR. WEBB: Okay. Because here is where I'm
2 going on this -- and first -- I'm sorry, Dylan,
3 do you want to -- I mean, Sean, do you want to
4 speak to that?
5 MR. KELLY: Certainly.
6 The yacht club requirement, under the
7 Part 4 supplemental regulations, is a
8 two-and-a-half-acre requirement. However, I
9 think there's the tennis courts here too, so
10 that's the addition, which a tennis club is
11 really required to be five acres. So they meet
12 the stricter of the two standards. They're
13 12 acres, so they're more than the yacht club
14 and the --
15 MR. WEBB: They need two -- okay.
16 Well, first of all, let me go back to
17 that. My question is, the -- in the original --
18 this is to the General Counsel's Office or to
19 Planning or to Mr. Hainline -- and I think,
20 Mr. Hainline, you and I had some previous
21 discussions about this, but -- in one of our
22 ex-parte communications, but the original PUD
23 and the -- and then subsequently modified, did
24 it include the condo area?
25 MR. HAINLINE: Yes, sir.
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1 MR. WEBB: Okay. So is this a -- is --
2 what are we doing here? Are we creating a PUD
3 within a PUD?
4 MS. ELLER: Yes.
5 The particular application is only for the
6 property that is owned by the club owners.
7 MR. WEBB: Well, who are the applicants --
8 who are subject to the original PUD?
9 MS. ELLER: Everybody is subject to the
10 original PUD, and the -- this applicant has the
11 right to apply for modifications on their
12 property.
13 If for some reason the modification on
14 their particular property somehow triggered some
15 inconsistency or necessary change for the
16 overall PUD --
17 MR. WEBB: Right.
18 MS. ELLER: -- at that point, everybody in
19 that PUD would have to approve those changes.
20 But, at this point, what they're -- what
21 they've applied for is solely within the bounds
22 of their property and what they've applied for
23 doesn't violate any of the conditions of the
24 original PUD.
25 MR. WEBB: Well, I have a question about
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1 that, then. Again -- I mean, this is painful
2 for me to ask this question because I'd like to
3 build wet slips all over the city of
4 Jacksonville. I'm a boater myself and I'm very
5 supportive of this -- of the concept of this in
6 principle; however, there is a legal issue here,
7 in my view.
8 You need the two or whatever -- the upland
9 requirements in order to put the yacht club in
10 there. Okay?
11 Now, you're not -- however, you're not
12 accessing this facility through those -- through
13 the land to which the riparian right attaches;
14 isn't that correct?
15 MS. ELLER: I'll defer to Mr. Hainline.
16 I believe that you are, because of the
17 connection --
18 MR. WEBB: T.R., if you could speak to
19 that.
20 MR. HAINLINE: Yes, sir.
21 Two responses: Number one, in the previous
22 PUD amendments -- for example, for additional
23 club facilities -- the portion owned by the club
24 was the applicant. The club was the applicant,
25 and where those -- and when those previous PUD
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1 amendments were approved, they were approved for
2 that piece of property, not the entire PUD.
3 MR. WEBB: Okay. Understood.
4 MR. HAINLINE: So the precedent is
5 established there, but --
6 MR. WEBB: Let me ask you -- let me ask you
7 a question along -- to that point --
8 MR. HAINLINE: Yes, sir.
9 MR. WEBB: -- through -- Mr. Chair --
10 through the Chair.
11 The modifications to the PUD that were in
12 the prior applications did not include expansion
13 of the slips; is that correct?
14 MR. HAINLINE: That is correct.
15 MR. WEBB: And these would -- and I would
16 assume that the application for the modification
17 to the -- the prior applications to
18 modifications to the PUD only involved
19 incidental uses or modifications that would
20 be -- that would affect the club itself would
21 have no impact on -- on those outside of the
22 applicant area?
23 MR. HAINLINE: Well, I'm not the determiner
24 of that. You are the determiner of that
25 because, by the same argument, if you add to the
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1 club facilities, thereby increasing traffic,
2 thereby increasing parking needs, you're
3 affecting everyone. People are coming in
4 through the entrance to go to the club. You're
5 affecting everyone.
6 By expanding the condominium footprint,
7 theoretically you're affecting the adjoining
8 single-family owner. That's why people get
9 notice for these things, so --
10 MR. WEBB: I understand.
11 I mean, to that point, though, this is a
12 special case because, again, not only does this
13 involve notice and other issues, this also
14 involves this concept of riparian rights. I
15 mean, (inaudible) riparian rights, that is,
16 these are -- are those which merely increase
17 one's comfort or prosperity and do not rank as
18 essential to its existence such as commercial
19 profit and recreation.
20 So -- and those -- my point is that, again,
21 you -- you are not exercising your riparian
22 rights with respect to the bulkhead because
23 you're accessing your riparian rights -- you're
24 just -- you're not exercising riparian rights
25 with respect to this extension or this expansion
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1 because you're accessing it off of the existing
2 marine -- or yacht club, pardon me.
3 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Webb, I would point out
4 two things. Number one, I would respectfully
5 disagree because we are -- the promenade runs
6 all along. It starts in the front of the club
7 and it runs all along there. We are accessing
8 from the promenade, from the property we own,
9 from the property that was -- that is within our
10 PUD ownership. We are accessing it.
11 The reason we chose not to access it from
12 the promenade over in front of the condominiums
13 is because it would have dramatically increased
14 the impacts on them, and they asked us not to do
15 that.
16 I would ask you not to punish us for that
17 concession to this them, that effort not to
18 impact by somehow saying that because we haven't
19 accessed it over along those riparian rights
20 that we're not using those riparian rights.
21 We believe we are using the riparian rights
22 and, in fact, the State, to give us a permit for
23 that submerged lease, requires that we own the
24 upland riparian rights. It requires that we own
25 that.
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1 So to the extent that we are applying for
2 the submerged land lease, we are indeed
3 factually using the riparian rights to do that.
4 And if we had chosen to move our access over
5 right in front of the condominiums, we would
6 have used the riparian rights over there. Right
7 now we're using the riparian rights where our
8 current access is.
9 MR. WEBB: So -- through the Chair,
10 Mr. Hainline, so your position is that you do
11 have sufficient upland to qualif- -- if this
12 were a freestanding yacht club and you came in
13 tomorrow and wanted to put up -- your position
14 is that the State of Florida -- you're
15 representation is that the State of Florida is
16 taking the position that you do have the upland
17 necessary to go forward with this project?
18 MR. HAINLINE: Yes, sir.
19 MR. WEBB: Okay. Thank you. All right.
20 Okay. Thank you very much.
21 MR. HAINLINE: And if we didn't --
22 MR. WEBB: This is a tough one, I will say
23 that.
24 MR. HAINLINE: And if we didn't have -- if
25 we did not have that promenade ownership, if we
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1 didn't have the ownership along there, we
2 couldn't do -- we couldn't do this, we could not
3 apply for the submerged land lease. It is
4 essential that we have that and are using it to
5 do this submerged land lease. That's one reason
6 why we didn't do it to the south.
7 MR. WEBB: Okay. Thank you very much for
8 that.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I have Mr. Joost.
10 MR. JOOST: I guess one -- well,
11 Mr. Hainline, I'll go with you since you seem to
12 be on the hot seat here.
13 Who actually owns the uplands?
14 MR. HAINLINE: Epping Forest Yacht Club,
15 Inc., owns, as has been said by both sides, an
16 area of 8 to 10 feet that runs along and under
17 the promenade, which includes the bulkhead,
18 which is what we're paying to fix.
19 MR. JOOST: So the condominium owners don't
20 own any of the uplands?
21 MR. HAINLINE: They do not own the uplands
22 adjacent to the water, that is correct.
23 Of course, they own the uplands back where
24 their units are. Well, actually, condominium
25 ownership is a little more complicated than
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1 that, but they nor their association own down to
2 the water's edge.
3 Epping Forest Yacht Club owns along the
4 water's edge for a distance of -- somewhere
5 between 5 and 10 feet. That's been the
6 testimony of both sides.
7 MR. JOOST: Why don't you, just for me,
8 define "upland," then.
9 MR. HAINLINE: Well, I'm not sure what
10 context it's used in, but it certainly -- I
11 guess I would need to know what context it's
12 used in.
13 I mean --
14 MR. JOOST: Just in my own mind when I was
15 reading it and then I saw kind of the outline of
16 the site plan and I saw the uplands, it looked
17 like they were by the condos to me.
18 MR. HAINLINE: Well, let me -- may I get
19 the site plan?
20 MR. JOOST: Yes.
21 MR. HAINLINE: This is the site plan I have
22 in front of me (indicating).
23 As you can see just from the coloring on
24 the site plan, Epping Forest Yacht Club's
25 ownership extends under the promenade and
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1 slightly to the east of the promenade, all the
2 way down here (indicating) to the single-family
3 land.
4 So what do the condominiums own? Well,
5 again, condominium ownership is different than
6 just saying they own it, but they certainly live
7 and own these buildings and the land up here
8 (indicating).
9 But the waterfront ownership, where the
10 water hits land that's dry, it's not under
11 water, where the water hits that promenade --
12 bulkhead and the promenade, that's owned by
13 Epping Forest Yacht Club, as well as the land
14 under the promenade, as well as a little bit
15 going back.
16 And I haven't said this, but I would add
17 that although the yacht club would never do it,
18 there's nothing in any of the PUD documents or
19 in any of the restrictive covenants that are
20 filed to prevent a hedge from being located on
21 the landward side of the promenade.
22 Now, no one would ever do that because
23 there's no purpose to it, but I only say it to
24 illustrate a point, that one of the benefits of
25 that riparian ownership is the ability to have a
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1 view, to use the land as you want, and to access
2 from that riparian ownership.
3 So, anyway, that's just a point.
4 And this -- with the site plan up here,
5 this would allow me to point out Mr. Webb's
6 question. We actually are extending from our
7 riparian ownership here (indicating), and we
8 need the riparian ownership over here in order
9 to get the submerged land lease here.
10 I hope that answered your question,
11 Mr. Joost.
12 MR. JOOST: Hold the map up again one more
13 time.
14 MR. HAINLINE: Yes.
15 (Complies.)
16 MR. JOOST: Sorry.
17 So where the marina extends, I guess that's
18 going northward? That --
19 MR. HAINLINE: Yes.
20 MR. JOOST: That does not come in front of
21 any of the condo owners?
22 MR. HAINLINE: No. This is in front of --
23 this little -- you can see it. There's a little
24 vague line there that is the condominium --
25 that's the first condominium building, right
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1 here (indicating). This is the second
2 condominium building. And if you look at the
3 aerials, it shows the same.
4 This --
5 MR. JOOST: Because you own -- I'm just,
6 you know, getting it straight for myself.
7 And because you own the bulkhead there or
8 the seawall or whatever you want to call it, you
9 therefore own the riparian rights to the
10 waterway?
11 MR. HAINLINE: That's correct.
12 But we don't only own the bulkhead, the
13 actual hard surface that the water hits when it
14 comes up, we own the promenade, the surface of
15 the walkway there that people walk on, and we
16 own back to include some of the landscaping that
17 is on the landward side of the promenade.
18 And, yes, we own everything in front of the
19 condominium buildings. We own everything -- we
20 own for the entire distance of the water,
21 between the condominium buildings and the water.
22 MR. JOOST: And so, therefore, your
23 contention is you're able to have a PUD within a
24 PUD because it's only affecting your property?
25 MR. HAINLINE: Well, it's not only my
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1 contention; that is what the code says and
2 that's what the prior precedent has been, not
3 only on this PUD, but I'll point out, you -- the
4 council approves PUDs for enormous developments
5 of regional impact, you approve PUDs for
6 hundreds and hundreds of acres, and people come
7 in all the time, and always have for as long as
8 I've been doing zoning work, to amend their
9 parcel that they own within the PUD, and it's
10 called a PUD to PUD rezoning. We do them all
11 the time. That's what this is. That's what the
12 prior amendments have been here at Epping.
13 If there was some ruling that you couldn't
14 amend the PUD as it applies to your property
15 within a PUD without getting everybody to sign
16 off on, it would make it a very difficult
17 vehicle indeed to use on large multiuse
18 projects, whether they're DRIs or not.
19 MR. JOOST: And one last question.
20 Was there any -- going along with
21 Mr. Shad's earlier question, was there any
22 attempt at a compromise in saying, we'll get a
23 smaller marina and have adequate parking?
24 MR. HAINLINE: The compromises, Mr. Joost,
25 were the setback from the -- 90-foot setback
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1 here (indicating) and a variety of other things
2 that I can run through. Those were the
3 concessions to address the impacts.
4 No, the parking that we proposed to provide
5 is the required parking per the PUD for our
6 marina expansion, the 25 spaces, so --
7 We worked long and hard between when they
8 first started talking to the condominium owners
9 back at the end of the year, last year, and July
10 to figure out exactly how we could size both the
11 parking expansion and the marina expansion to be
12 able to provide the required number of parking
13 spaces for the slips. That's the basis of our
14 application.
15 It was only after that that some owners --
16 some residents said, please consider -- you
17 know, the marina doesn't use any parking. We're
18 never going to have a crowded parking lot
19 because of the marina. Please consider saving
20 some of the trees and providing less parking.
21 MR. JOOST: Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb.
23 MR. WEBB: Mr. Hainline, don't go
24 anywhere. Bring your sign back down -- your
25 site plan.
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1 MR. HAINLINE: (Complies.)
2 MR. WEBB: Thank you.
3 I appreciate the graphic because it begs
4 the question -- I just want to -- I'd like to --
5 through the Chair, I'd like to get some
6 clarification.
7 Earlier, Sean, you said -- your position is
8 what? You need two-and-a-half acres of upland
9 for the yacht club -- in order to put a yacht
10 club in; is that correct?
11 MR. KELLY: Correct.
12 MR. WEBB: All right. Mr. Hainline, where
13 is the upland property sufficient to justify
14 the --
15 MR. HAINLINE: Everything --
16 MR. WEBB: Okay.
17 MR. HAINLINE: Everything that is in that
18 black line is owned by Epping Forest Yacht Club,
19 Inc., and is the upland, which --
20 MR. WEBB: And therein lies -- I guess the
21 next question is -- and to the General Counsel,
22 maybe to the Planning Department.
23 Is it a requirement that the upland
24 property necessary to satisfy the requirements
25 of the statute be contiguous to that property
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1 that creates the riparian right? Does that make
2 sense?
3 THE CHAIRMAN: It is contiguous.
4 MR. WEBB: How is that -- or adjacent or --
5 is it --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: It's contiguous.
7 MR. WEBB: Is it parallel -- I'm sorry,
8 parallel or be attached?
9 MS. ELLER: An enclave of that nature is
10 permitted because the piece of dirt right in
11 front of the waterway is all that's needed. For
12 example, there are places where people only own
13 the bulkhead and they have rights to --
14 MR. WEBB: Then, arguably, you could -- if
15 that's your theory, you could -- if you're
16 attaching -- if you're claiming the riparian --
17 if you're claiming that the justification or the
18 support for the expansion of this flows from the
19 riparian rights on that piece of dirt, then
20 arguably you could construct a million slips all
21 the way down the length of the St. Johns River;
22 isn't that a fair statement?
23 MS. ELLER: That's a fair statement.
24 MR. WEBB: There's something illogical
25 about this.
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1 MS. ELLER: There is other requirements,
2 though, because you -- you'll notice that -- the
3 number of slips that are permitted; you have to
4 meet parking requirements; there is the acreage
5 requirement, as Sean mentioned; there's also the
6 permitting requirements through the other State
7 agencies and the limitations in our comp plan
8 with regard to the appropriate location for
9 facilities, including things that serve as
10 residential docks like this and other things
11 that are more intense.
12 So I think you're -- you are correct in
13 stating that, based upon a strip, you have the
14 right to do so. Whether or not you could
15 exercise that right, I think, pulls in a whole
16 'nother layer of regulations.
17 MR. WEBB: Okay.
18 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Webb, I would add to
19 Ms. Eller's comment by -- I mean, by just
20 pointing out that our parking has direct access
21 to where we are from our upland ownership.
22 We're not having to leap over property or create
23 something incredibly circuitous. We have direct
24 access to where it is.
25 We didn't -- we chose not to somehow hook
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1 the dock into here (indicating) because the
2 condominium owners did not want that. We kept
3 the access where it is. Our riparian rights and
4 our ownership ends here, where the single-family
5 ownership begins.
6 MR. WEBB: Okay. Fair enough.
7 MR. HAINLINE: So we can't extend a million
8 miles up.
9 MR. WEBB: You know, I knew -- that's
10 exactly -- I knew that would be your position.
11 However, that -- again, you're not
12 exercising your riparian rights over the
13 property. And, again, I hear your point that it
14 was subject to a compromise with the home- --
15 with the condo association, but --
16 MR. HAINLINE: Well, if it's important to
17 our obtaining this PUD amendment as a legal
18 requirement, if it's important for us to hook in
19 here (indicating), we're happy to have an
20 amendment to hook in here right now, but I don't
21 think that's what anybody --
22 MR. WEBB: I understand.
23 MR. HAINLINE: -- would want.
24 MR. WEBB: Okay. Thank you.
25 I have nothing else. Thank you.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
2 Mr. Hainline, I have a question for you.
3 The original PUD, the -- was the original
4 marina -- I'm sorry, yacht club, owned by the
5 current owner?
6 MR. HAINLINE: Epping Forest, yeah.
7 Well, at the time the PUD was applied for,
8 I don't know if the corporate entity was the
9 same. Obviously, the whole piece of property in
10 its entirety was purchased from the Mason
11 family, but the -- this ownership has been in
12 unity, has been the same person since the
13 property was acquired, so this all has stayed --
14 rather, this has all stayed in the ownership of
15 Epping Forest Yacht Club.
16 There might have been a predecessor in
17 title. Certainly it goes back to whatever
18 entity acquired the land from the Masons, but
19 Epping Forest Yacht Club -- since the beginning
20 of the PUD, Epping Forest Yacht Club has owned
21 all of this (indicating), as well as the land
22 along the promenade.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
24 I was going to say, in my opinion, I think
25 the key to this whole thing is who owns the
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1 riparian rights. And unless somebody wants to
2 start doing some things on the state level and
3 getting into that -- or maybe even the federal
4 level, getting into that ball of wax, when you
5 take on the ownership of that bulkhead, you also
6 take on the responsibility of making sure that
7 bulkhead stays whole.
8 Somebody else could have taken on that
9 responsibility, but there's dollar amounts
10 associated with that -- taking on that
11 bulkhead.
12 I can tell you from living at the beach,
13 there were circumstances and there's been law
14 cases where the bulkhead was owned by somebody
15 else, and you can erect a wall, and then people
16 were basically held hostage because someone
17 erected a 10-foot wall, and they said, "Well,
18 for $100,000 I can take the 10-foot wall down."
19 You know, so now, with the way it is, if
20 you live at the beach, you own that bulkhead.
21 You actually own 18 inches past the end of that
22 bulkhead, so you don't have to worry about
23 anybody erecting anything in front of your
24 view.
25 And, in this case, the yacht club happens
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1 to own those riparian rights, they happen to own
2 that bulkhead. That was smart of them.
3 But, anyway, I don't see anybody else here
4 in the queue, and we're -- Mr. Shad.
5 MR. SHAD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 I want to thank the committee, again, for
7 what's been a very thorough, thoughtful, careful
8 consideration on this matter. It's about as
9 thorough as -- six years on LUZ -- well, five
10 years on LUZ, one year now off -- that I've seen
11 this committee take, and I appreciate it because
12 it is a complex matter.
13 I don't have a vote tonight. If I did vote
14 tonight, I would vote to support the
15 application, although it's certainly not a
16 lay-up. And, as I said before, I'd encourage
17 you to -- as I'm sure you will -- you know,
18 simply vote on the evidence you heard.
19 And take no weight in my opinion because
20 I'd like you to vote this up or down on its
21 merits without consideration to where the
22 district councilperson is, although I do lean
23 slightly towards support.
24 The parking is important. We have gone
25 over that in great detail. I feel satisfied
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 that the parking is being addressed.
2 The discussion of yacht club versus marina,
3 I feel satisfied. This is not a marina; this is
4 a yacht club, boat club. No fuel, no
5 liveaboards, no repair.
6 And then, as has been said, the -- it
7 really comes down to ownership of the bulkhead
8 and the 10 -- 8- to 10-foot promenade landscaped
9 area, and the -- you know, the testimony from
10 the residents that live in the condominiums,
11 they're going to have the -- the view corridor
12 affected is powerful and it is, you know -- but
13 at the end of the day, I have to vote it on the
14 substantial competent evidence that's been put
15 before me, and that's where I'm at.
16 So thank you again for your consideration.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Shad.
18 Please open the ballot.
19 (Committee ballot opened.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
21 vote.
22 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
4 (Committee ballot closed.)
5 MR. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
7 approved 2008-651 as amended.
8 We're going to take about a 10-minute break
9 for our court reporter.
10 Thank you, Diane, for sticking with us.
11 We're in recess for about 10 or 15
12 minutes.
13 (Brief recess.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. It looks like we're
15 ready to go again.
16 I'm sorry that you guys had to go through
17 that, but the court reporter, her hands were
18 just going nonstop, and so we had to give her
19 ten minutes.
20 And, Diane, thanks for sticking in there
21 with us because I think if we would have stopped
22 in the middle of that, it probably would have
23 added another hour to it.
24 Anyway, let's go to the beginning of the
25 agenda. 2005-1228 is deferred. 2006-24 is
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1 deferred. 2006-220 is deferred.
2 Top of page 3. 2006-658 is deferred.
3 2007-384.
4 MR. WEBB: Move withdrawal.
5 MR. CLARK: Second.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
7 to withdraw.
8 Any discussion on the withdrawal?
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
11 ballot.
12 (Committee ballot opened.)
13 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
16 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
20 (Committee ballot closed.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
22 the vote.
23 MR. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
25 withdrawn 2007-384.
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1 2007-581 is deferred.
2 Top of page 4. 2007-803.
3 MR. WEBB: Move to withdraw.
4 MR. CLARK: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
6 to withdraw -803.
7 Any discussion on 2007-803?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
10 ballot.
11 (Committee ballot opened.)
12 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
15 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
19 (Committee ballot closed.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
21 vote.
22 MR. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
24 withdrawn 2007-803.
25 2007-1086.
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1 MR. WEBB: Move the sub.
2 MR. CLARK: Second.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: The sub's been moved and
4 seconded.
5 Any discussion on the sub?
6 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor say aye.
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
12 the sub.
13 MR. WEBB: Move rereferral of the sub.
14 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Move to rerefer LUZ as
16 substituted.
17 Any further discussion on the rereferral?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
20 ballot.
21 (Committee ballot opened.)
22 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
4 (Committee ballot closed.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
6 the vote.
7 MR. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
9 rereferred 2007-1086 to LUZ.
10 2007-1350. We will open that public
11 hearing.
12 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
13 public hearing and take no further action.
14 2008-23. We'll open the public hearing.
15 Seeing no speakers, we'll close that
16 public --
17 MR. WEBB: Move to withdraw.
18 MR. CLARK: Second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
20 to withdraw 2008-23.
21 Any discussion on the withdrawal?
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
24 ballot.
25 (Committee ballot opened.)
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1 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
4 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
8 (Committee ballot closed.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
10 vote
11 MR. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
13 withdrawn 2008-23.
14 Top of page 5. 2008-236 is deferred. -314
15 is deferred. -413 is deferred.
16 Top of page 6. -414, -415, and -416 are
17 all deferred.
18 Top of page 7. -417, -418, and -419 are
19 all deferred.
20 Top of page 8. -420 is deferred.
21 -417 -- I'm sorry, -517. We'll open the
22 public hearing.
23 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
24 public hearing and take no further action.
25 -518. We will open the public hearing.
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1 We have Mike Herzberg.
2 (Mr. Herzberg approaches the podium.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no questions --
4 MR. HERZBERG: Mr. Chairman, for the
5 record, Mike Herzberg.
6 I am aware of the conditions. I've worked
7 those out with Sean Kelly and the district
8 councilman. I know of no opposition. So, yes,
9 sir, I will stand by for any questions.
10 Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have any other
12 speakers for that?
13 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no further speakers,
15 we'll close the public hearing.
16 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
17 MR. CLARK: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
19 and seconded.
20 Can we hear the amendment?
21 MR. CROFTS: The amendment is as follows --
22 consists of the following conditions:
23 Number 1, "The developer shall be subject
24 to the original legal description dated March
25 4th, 2008."
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1 Number 2, "The developer shall be subject
2 to the original written description dated March
3 4th, 2008."
4 Number 3, "The developer shall be subject
5 to the revised site plan dated September 10th,
6 2008."
7 Number 4, "The required transportation
8 improvements shall be made in accordance with
9 the Development Services memorandum dated
10 September 8th, 2008, and the Florida Department
11 of Transportation memorandum date July 15th,
12 2008, or as otherwise approved by the Planning
13 and Development Department and the FDOT."
14 Number 5, "At the time of verification, a
15 master site plan, including landscaping,
16 parking, and pedestrian circulation shall be
17 provided to the Planning and Development
18 Department for review and approval.
19 "This provision shall not be construed to
20 require a PUD to PUD rezoning and will otherwise
21 conform to Section 656.341(F)(1)."
22 Number 6, "The building architecture shall
23 be subject to the review and approval of the
24 Planning and Development Department and shall
25 follow design principles of the Commercial
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1 Design Guidelines and Best Practices Manual."
2 Number 7, "Internally-illuminated wall
3 signs may only face Atlantic Boulevard."
4 Number 8, "The outdoor sale and service
5 shall be permitted except for the west and south
6 side of parcel A."
7 Number 9, "Two drive-thru restaurants shall
8 be permitted on parcel B and C.
9 Twenty-four-hour drive-thrus shall be
10 prohibited."
11 Number 10 and finally, "The development
12 shall be prohibited from using the Floridan
13 aquifer water for irrigation and shall be
14 required to use reuse water when available."
15 That's it.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you in agreement with
17 that?
18 MR. HERZBERG: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sitting here and I'm
20 looking at a memo or a note from Bill Bishop,
21 and it says here, "Fast-food restaurants shall
22 be prohibited." And you had said your amendment
23 was only 24-hour drive-thrus were prohibited.
24 MR. HERZBERG: Through the Chair, if I may,
25 I think actually Mr. Bishop's memo goes on to
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1 say "restaurants," that two drive-thrus would be
2 permitted in those areas.
3 I think what Mr. Bishop's memo is doing is
4 something that Mr. Kelly and myself were working
5 with him on.
6 The original condition of the Department
7 was to prohibit them. It was not the desire of
8 the district councilmember or the citizenry or
9 the applicant to prohibit those.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that the way the Planning
11 Department reads this?
12 The note that I'm reading, it just says --
13 it's underlined.
14 MR. KELLY: To the Chair, I'll just state,
15 initially, for the record, the Department's
16 recommendation was to specifically prohibit
17 fast-food restaurants.
18 That was amended in concert with the memo.
19 It's specific now to limiting drive-thrus only
20 on parcels B and C. I think it was inherent
21 that there will be restaurants with a drive-thru
22 service on those parcels.
23 Mike can explain if there's --
24 MR. HERZBERG: If I may, sir.
25 Mr. Chairman, the actual text that you have
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1 there, the underlined portion is a portion that
2 I had sent to Mr. Bishop earlier today to say,
3 these are the things that are problematic in
4 what came out of the Planning Commission.
5 He worked from there and tries to explain
6 that the issue, then, is to allow the
7 drive-thrus only on parcels B and C, but I could
8 assure you and, obviously, I'd be happy to
9 provide by next Tuesday night the assurance from
10 Councilmember Bill Bishop that he is not
11 opposing the fast-food restaurants in those two
12 locations; as a matter of fact, recognizes that
13 it would permit the drive-thrus in their
14 location on those two parcels as depicted.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
16 MR. HERZBERG: Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: We're on the amendment.
18 Any further discussion on the amendment?
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
21 say aye.
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
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1 approved the amendment.
2 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
3 MR. CLARK: Second.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
5 seconded as amended.
6 Any further discussion on the bill?
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
9 ballot.
10 (Committee ballot opened.)
11 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
14 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
18 (Committee ballot closed.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
20 the vote.
21 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: But your action, you have
23 approved -518 as amended.
24 MR. HERZBERG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
25 thank you, committee.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: -541 is deferred.
3 Top of page 9. -542, -545, and -546 are
4 all deferred.
5 2008-547. We will open the public hearing.
6 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
7 public hearing and take no further action.
8 MR. WEBB: Is that continued or closed?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Continued.
10 Top of page 10. Open the public hearing.
11 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
12 public hearing, take no further action.
13 -549, -550, -551 are all deferred.
14 Top of page --
15 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. That was the request
17 by the district councilperson, that's correct.
18 Top of page 11. -552 is deferred.
19 -562. We'll open the public hearing. We
20 have Steve Cissel.
21 Do you want to speak to this or are you
22 just here for questions?
23 MR. KELLY: To the Chair, I believe the
24 applicant -- he's the applicant for the
25 rezoning. I believe he left.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Then I guess
2 that's "no."
3 All right. Seeing no further speakers,
4 we'll continue that public hearing and take no
5 further action.
6 -563 is deferred.
7 -564. We will open that public hearing.
8 MR. WEBB: Mr. Chairman.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
10 MR. WEBB: I'm sorry. We have a speaker on
11 that one?
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
13 MR. WEBB: Fair enough.
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: -564?
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Come on down.
16 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Give your name and address
18 for the record, and you have three minutes.
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Charles
20 Hovey. I live at 11670 Mandarin Road.
21 What I'm trying to do with the property is
22 basically subdivide it back to the way it was
23 when my grandfather acquired the property back
24 in the 1940s.
25 It's got a parcel A, which is the front,
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1 which is right on Mandarin Road. Parcel B is
2 where I currently have my home, which is a
3 little bit more than 3,000 square foot, which
4 I'm anticipating in the future it's going to be
5 a little bit too large for me, and I'd like to
6 go back in the future and possibly build on
7 the -- on the front part.
8 The waiver, from what I understand, by
9 keeping the zoning the same way as it's been,
10 rural residential, I need to have 80 linear feet
11 per lot on Mandarin Road. Right now I have
12 110 feet, so I was advised that I needed to
13 knock that down to zero to allow an access by an
14 easement to the back, to lot B, where the
15 current house is.
16 By granting this and doing the approval, it
17 will maintain Mandarin's historical appearance
18 because it will -- it will just build one
19 single-family home on the front part. There
20 will be no development. There will be no
21 request for rezoning, nothing like that.
22 And denial will only allow me basically
23 to -- in the future, probably have to sell the
24 whole parcel off, three acres off at one time,
25 so . . .
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1 I do request that you do approve that so
2 that I can maintain the family estate and stay
3 on the property that -- that has been in the
4 family since the '40s.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
6 Any further speakers?
7 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we will close
9 that public hearing.
10 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment to grant.
11 MR. CLARK: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a move the amendment
13 to grant the waiver.
14 I see here there's a Planning Department
15 request for denial?
16 MR. KELLY: (Nods head.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Do I have a second on it?
18 MR. CLARK: Second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: We have -- moved and
20 seconded.
21 Any discussion on the amendment to grant
22 the waiver?
23 MR. WEBB: Mr. Chairman, yeah.
24 With respect to this, I recognize that the
25 Planning Department has recommended denial on
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1 this. However, in -- you know, in having
2 reviewed the file, I think -- I take the
3 applicant at his word with respect to
4 maintaining the historic integrity of Mandarin
5 Road in this area.
6 I'm very familiar with the property. I
7 drove by, did a site visit. In my view, this
8 will not have any adverse impact on the
9 community at all. In fact, the fact that we are
10 able to maintain stability with respect to the
11 property ownership there I think in the
12 long-term does more for the community, so I
13 would ask the committee to support the amendment
14 to grant the waiver.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller.
16 MS. ELLER: No.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Planning Department.
18 MR. KELLY: Through the Chair, I would just
19 say that there's some additional information I
20 don't think that was referenced in the report.
21 There may have been some pages missing in
22 the staff recommendation in your book, but I did
23 want to point out that this is in the Mandarin
24 Road overlay area, the subject property. And
25 according to the legal description that was
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1 submitted, the -- it appears that the overall
2 property that would be partitioned out would
3 be -- would then result in -- if it's my
4 understanding, would it be two lots less than an
5 acre in size? If that's the case, that would be
6 the only potential conflict that I see.
7 MR. WEBB: Through the Chair, if I may,
8 Mr. Chairman.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on. Let him finish his
10 thought.
11 MR. WEBB: Okay.
12 Go ahead.
13 MR. KELLY: Well, that and the general kind
14 of health, safety, welfare issues that we
15 typically deal with, addressing and locating,
16 that the address be clearly marked off that
17 section of Scott Mill Road [sic]. Additionally,
18 the easement to provide access to that property
19 should be improved to provide stabilized,
20 positive drainage that can handle those types of
21 emergency vehicles that may need to get back
22 there.
23 Those would be, I guess, the other
24 components if we're going to support this.
25 MR. WEBB: I'm sorry --
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
2 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 Sir, would you come on down, please.
4 MR. HOVEY: (Complies.)
5 MR. WEBB: We can do this one or two ways,
6 I guess. We could -- we can continue the public
7 hearing and defer this one cycle so as to work
8 this out, or if those recommendations from the
9 Planning Department are acceptable to you, sir,
10 I would offer them as an amendment -- as a
11 condition.
12 And, Sean, could you restate that, please.
13 Or, first of all, let me -- through the
14 Chair, sir, this will not result in a compromise
15 of the Mandarin overlay in that there's adequate
16 property there, you will not have lots less than
17 one acre; is that correct?
18 MR. HOVEY: Correct. I already subdivided
19 it to maintain the rule. I've got one acre up
20 front and one acre --
21 (Simultaneous speaking.)
22 MR. WEBB: It is RR. So, again, it's the
23 health, safety, welfare issues.
24 If you could repeat those conditions,
25 please.
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1 MR. KELLY: Certainly.
2 Condition one would be, "The address shall
3 be clearly marked and identified on Scott Mill
4 Road."
5 MR. HOVEY: The property is on Mandarin
6 Road.
7