1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE


       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING


       3                         COMMITTEE






       6             Proceedings held on Tuesday, September 16,


       7   2008, commencing at 5:04 p.m., City Hall, Council


       8   Chambers, 1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before


       9   Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State


      10   of Florida at Large.




      12   PRESENT:


      13        ART GRAHAM, Chair.

                STEPHEN JOOST, Vice Chair.

      14        RICHARD CLARK, Committee Member.

                JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.

      15        RAY HOLT, Committee Member.

                JACK WEBB, Committee Member.

      16        DON REDMAN, Committee Member.



           ALSO PRESENT:


                ART SHAD, City Council Member.

      19        JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

                SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

      20        FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.

                SHANNON ELLER, Office of General Counsel.

      21        MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.

                MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.


                                 -  -  -










           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   September 16, 2008                      5:04 p.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let the record show -- I


       5        have 5:04 on Tuesday, April [sic] 16th, and this


       6        is the Land Use and Zoning Committee.


       7             Let's start over here on the right with


       8        Mr. Crofts and let's introduce ourselves.


       9             MR. CROFTS:  John Crofts, Planning and


      10        Development Department.


      11             MR. KELLY:  Sean Kelly, Planning and


      12        Development.


      13             MR. HUXFORD:  Folks Huxford, Planning and


      14        Development.


      15             MS. ELLER:  Shannon Eller, General


      16        Counsel's Office.


      17             MR. SHAD:  Art Shad, visiting, District 5.


      18             MR. REDMAN:  Don Redman, District 4.


      19             DR. GAFFNEY:  Dr. Gaffney, District 7.


      20             MR. HOLT:  Ray Holt, District 11.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Art Graham, District 13.


      22             MR. JOOST:  Stephen Joost, Group 3


      23        at-large.


      24             MR. WEBB:  Jack Webb, District 6.


      25             MR. CLARK:  Richard Clark, Canvassing Board





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        extraordinaire.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  And thank you for all your


       3        fine work, Mr. Clark.


       4             Okay.  We're going to take things a little


       5        out of order because we have a visiting


       6        councilmember here, so if we can go to page 13,


       7        2008-651.


       8             Now, we are going to do things a little


       9        different on this one because we have expert


      10        witnesses on both sides.  We're going to give


      11        both sides 15 minutes to speak.  The applicant


      12        will speak first and then the other side will


      13        speak for their 15 minutes, and the applicant


      14        will have the opportunity to come back and rebut


      15        for the remaining of his 15 minutes.


      16             Anybody else that wants to speak outside of


      17        that, I'll cut you off if we're hearing stuff


      18        that's duplicative of something we've already


      19        heard.  You guys will all be given a minute to


      20        speak.


      21             And I'll let you know that everything that


      22        went into the Planning Commission, that stuff


      23        all is in the public record and we all have that


      24        stuff, so unless there's something new that you


      25        want to add that we haven't heard from either





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        side, feel free to come up.  We have your card,


       2        just give your name and address for the record


       3        when you come up here, and we'll make sure that


       4        the card is pulled, and you do have a minute.


       5        But other than that, I think we're good.


       6             MR. HOLT:  Declare ex-parte?


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ex-parte, sure.


       8             Mr. Shad, we'll start with you.


       9             MR. SHAD:  Thank you.


      10             In addition to previously-announced


      11        communications at last week's City Council


      12        meeting, I had one single conversation with


      13        Barbara Jaffe today just prior to this meeting


      14        with regards to some of the conditions.


      15             Thank you.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman, go ahead.


      17             MR. REDMAN:  Approximately two weeks ago, I


      18        had an ex-parte communication with T.R. Hainline


      19        and again today with the same individual.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Dr. Gaffney.


      21             DR. GAFFNEY:  Yes.  I had an ex-parte


      22        communication with T.R. Hainline as well.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      24             MR. HOLT:  I had ex-parte communications


      25        with Mr. Hainline last Tuesday, the 9th,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        regarding the issues surrounding Epping Forest.


       2             Thank you.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Joost.


       4             MR. JOOST:  I had an ex-parte communication


       5        with Mr. T.R. Hainline this afternoon, right


       6        after the agenda meeting, in my office.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Webb.


       8             MR. WEBB:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       9             On Monday, September 8th at 8 a.m., I had


      10        ex-parte communications with Mr. Hainline as


      11        well regarding the application.


      12             And then on Thursday, September 4th, I had


      13        ex-parte communications with a number of


      14        people.  It was at 4:15 p.m., in council meeting


      15        room A.  Brenna Durden, Brian Wheeler, Lucy


      16        Jensen, Wayne Flowers, Tim Connolly, and, as I


      17        said, Brenna Durden.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Clark.


      19             MR. CLARK:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      20             I had ex-parte July 22nd with T.R.


      21        Hainline.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  And I had ex-parte with


      23        Mr. Hainline and Ms. Durden and crew, and I have


      24        the paperwork filed saying such.


      25             That being said, Mr. Hainline, we will open





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the public hearing.


       2             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  You have 15 minutes.  You


       4        can decide how much you want to use up front and


       5        how much you want to use in rebuttal.


       6             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Chairman, first, I have


       7        some things I'd like to pass out.


       8             Brenna, here's yours.


       9             (Tenders documents.)


      10             This is the same stuff as last week.


      11        There's nothing new in there.


      12             MS. DURDEN:  Thank you.


      13             MR. HAINLINE:  T.R. Hainline, 1301


      14        Riverplace Boulevard.


      15             Mr. Chairman, here is what we're going to


      16        do:  I'm going to speak for a little while, then


      17        Steve Nichols, who is the harbor master for


      18        Epping Forest, is going to speak a little


      19        while.  That would be the conclusion of our 15


      20        minutes.  And if I could ask you-all to give


      21        Steve a warning when there's -- about 11 minutes


      22        is up, that would be great.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


      24             MR. HAINLINE:  And I would like to save the


      25        remaining time, hopefully four minutes, for





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        rebuttal at the end of everybody speaking.


       2             So Steve Nichols and I are going to speak,


       3        and I'm sure there are others who are here to


       4        speak within those one-minute parameters that


       5        you mentioned as well.


       6             So my name is T.R. Hainline, 1301


       7        Riverplace Boulevard.  I'm here representing


       8        Epping Forest Yacht Club.


       9             I think you-all are familiar with the


      10        application as a whole, so I won't go over


      11        that.  The Planning Department's report covers


      12        that in great detail.


      13             Last Thursday, the Planning Commission


      14        heard from proponents and opponents for almost


      15        three hours, and the Planning Commission voted


      16        to recommend approval of this PUD and approval


      17        with a revised parking plan which reduces the


      18        parking somewhat and saves many more large


      19        specimen trees.


      20             That plan is the result of discussions that


      21        we had with a group of residents.  We offered it


      22        to the Planning Commission as an alternative


      23        plan, with the result of saving more trees.  And


      24        the Planning Commission, after hearing from


      25        everyone, adopted that alternative plan.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             The Planning Department, of course, has


       2        also recommended approval, and its report is in


       3        your packet.


       4             We did have experts testify at the Planning


       5        Commission meeting at some length.  I'm not


       6        going to have them testify here tonight.  Their


       7        testimony is in your transcripts, but all of


       8        them are here and they're available to answer


       9        questions if you have any following the reading


      10        of their testimony.


      11             I'd just like to cover a few brief points


      12        and then turn it over to Steve Nichols.


      13             Epping Forest Yacht Club is a private club,


      14        and I'd like to make a couple of points about


      15        that.  The club is and always was intended to be


      16        a recreational use for residents, for people who


      17        live throughout Southeast Jacksonville.  The


      18        original PUD made it clear that the club was for


      19        residents and non-residents.  The original PUD


      20        looked at the unique facilities, the resources


      21        that are there at Epping, the mansion, the


      22        gardens, and the marina.  And the original PUD


      23        said, these are unique resources; they should be


      24        the focal point for this development.  And this


      25        PUD -- again, this is back in 1985 -- should





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        provide, and I'm quoting, fine housing, a


       2        nondiscriminatory yacht club, and a special


       3        events facility.


       4             With regard to the marina specifically, the


       5        yacht -- the PUD, the original PUD, described


       6        the marina as a noncommercial marina open to


       7        resident and non-resident members of the club.


       8        And the original PUD defined what it meant by a


       9        "noncommercial marina."  That meant no fuel


      10        service, no boat ramp, no repair or haul-out


      11        facilities, no liveaboards, no covered boat


      12        slips, and no dockominiums or slips for sale.


      13             In those respects, Epping Forest is like


      14        the Florida Yacht Club or perhaps the Rudder


      15        Club, also on the Westside, but it most


      16        certainly is not like Lamb's or Palm Cove, or


      17        Beach Marine because all of those have, in


      18        various combinations, fuel service, haul-out,


      19        repair, all of those things, very intensive uses


      20        in and of themselves.


      21             As a private club, Epping Forest Yacht Club


      22        is an explicitly permitted recreational use in


      23        the low density residential land use category,


      24        the LDR category.


      25             Does the number of slips at the marina or





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the number of weddings that are held at the


       2        club, does that change somehow that use being


       3        permitted in the LDR category?  The answer


       4        absolutely is no.  And that works for many uses


       5        that are permitted in the LDR category, and I'll


       6        pick a church just as an example.


       7             If a church starts to have great membership


       8        and has big weddings there or draws national


       9        pastors to come in and speak, does that make


      10        that church all of a sudden not compatible or


      11        not permitted in the LDR use?  No, it does not.


      12             So Epping Forest, as a private yacht club


      13        that was always intended to be a special events


      14        facility and a place with great resources to be


      15        used by residents and non-residents alike, fits


      16        within the LDR category and always has.


      17             Let me mention two other points that are


      18        raised by the opposition as you have seen in the


      19        transcripts.


      20             In terms of reasonable expectations, we


      21        believe that when someone buys within a PUD and


      22        sees that the yacht club is the focal point of


      23        the development, that it includes memberships to


      24        non-residents, that it has recreational and


      25        meeting facilities for special events, that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        indeed there's an expectation that there's going


       2        to be a club there that is a draw for


       3        non-residents alike and has events such as


       4        this.


       5             We believe that when you look at a marina,


       6        that the marina defined itself as noncommercial


       7        with no haul-out, no fuel service, no repairs,


       8        et cetera, and that that's an expectation as it


       9        sets there.


      10             Is it reasonable for residents to assume


      11        that there will never be any changes to the


      12        Epping Forest PUD?  No.


      13             The Epping Forest PUD has been amended six


      14        times since 1985.  Modifications have included


      15        allowing a bigger footprint for the condominium


      16        buildings.  That was one of the modifications.


      17        Also, allowing some additional recreational


      18        facilities.  So the PUD has been amended, again,


      19        six times since 1985, so there's no assumption


      20        that it will never be amended.


      21             In terms of use, the condominium owners


      22        have raised the issue of views, from their


      23        perception, being diminished by the marina, and


      24        I'll say what I said at the Planning Commission


      25        meeting, which is the club owns down to the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        water.  There's no debate about that.  That's


       2        been the case since the club opened.


       3             The club owns down to the water.  That


       4        waterfront ownership brings with it benefits and


       5        burdens.  The benefit to the club is that it


       6        controls access to the marina and can develop


       7        access to the marina.  The burden is that that


       8        waterfront that the club owns costs a lot of


       9        money to maintain.  And, in fact, it's going to


      10        cost about a million and a half dollars to


      11        repair that bulkhead.


      12             What the condominium owners are asking


      13        for -- and this is our perception, of course.


      14        What they're asking for is the ability -- as if


      15        they owned to the waterfront, which they don't,


      16        they're asking for the ability to control


      17        development of the water out there, but they


      18        don't want to have to pay the million and a half


      19        dollars that it's going to take to maintain that


      20        bulkhead.


      21             So waterfront ownership, what comes with


      22        that are the benefits of views and control of


      23        waterfront development and heavy burdens too,


      24        which is those repair costs that I mentioned.


      25             The parking issue, let me just touch on





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that.  Again, an alternative parking plan was


       2        adopted by the Planning Commission after a lot


       3        of testimony.  That alternative parking plan


       4        takes -- we would be happy to do the required


       5        parking under the Epping Forest PUD, which is


       6        one parking space per three boat slips.  That


       7        was our original proposal.


       8             Residents came to us and said -- as we knew


       9        from our own data, which we submitted at the


      10        Planning Commission.  Residents came to us and


      11        said, The marina doesn't cause a demand on


      12        parking.  That doesn't cause it; it's special


      13        events.  We don't want you to develop 25 spaces


      14        of parking and have to take down big trees.  Can


      15        you please devise a plan that provides less


      16        parking and saves more trees?  So we did that.


      17             Working with a group of residents, we came


      18        up with a plan which provides eight parking


      19        spaces, which under our own data is sufficient


      20        for the marina slips that we're adding, and


      21        saves all of the specimen trees that those


      22        residents wanted.  It's really all but one


      23        that's over near the tennis courts.  All the big


      24        trees that are there in the parking area, that


      25        plan would save.  That's the plan that was





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        adopted by the Planning Commission.


       2             Remember that the condo owners have their


       3        own dedicated parking under their building, so


       4        that's not an issue.  We believe, as all of the


       5        residents that I've talked to believe, that the


       6        alternative plan provides sufficient parking and


       7        saves more trees, but if it's the wish of this


       8        committee, we're happy as well to provide all


       9        the parking that's required under the PUD and


      10        stick with the original proposal.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Hainline, you've got


      12        five minutes left.


      13             MR. HAINLINE:  All right.  With that, I'm


      14        going to turn it over to Steve Nichols.


      15             (Mr. Nichols approaches the podium.)


      16             MR. NICHOLS:  Members of the committee, I


      17        will be very brief.  I want to first assure you


      18        that, again, as was stated in last year's


      19        hearing -- or last week's hearing, I'm sorry --


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Steve, I need your name and


      21        address for the record.


      22             MR. NICHOLS:  I'm sorry.


      23             Steve Nichols, Epping Forest Yacht Club,


      24        Harbor Master, 3637 Marsh Park Court.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. NICHOLS:  There's a parallel permitting


       2        process going on with the State of Florida, the


       3        Corps of Engineers, the U.S. Coast Guard, the


       4        St. Johns Water Management District, and in that


       5        will be addressed manatee safety issues,


       6        navigation issues, water quality issues.  That


       7        is ongoing, and so our task here is not --


       8        today, not to decide that.  Our task here today


       9        is to talk about the PUD.


      10             I want to reinforce the fact that we are


      11        changing none of the rules of the marina.  As


      12        you heard Mr. Hainline say, we have rules in the


      13        marina and there are things that we don't


      14        allow.  We don't have haul-out facilities for


      15        major work; we do not and will not have fuel; we


      16        do not allow liveaboards.  All of the rules that


      17        are in place today will remain in place because


      18        that's the facility we want.  We don't intend


      19        this to become a commercial marina.  It will


      20        remain a private yacht club as it has always


      21        been.


      22             In your booklets there, under tab 6, you


      23        have letters from our various fleet members who


      24        give their -- the reasons of the Epping


      25        membership as to why they would like to see the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        marina expanded.


       2             We've tried to make accommodations in the


       3        design process by offsetting the proposed marina


       4        site from the bulkhead, having access all in one


       5        place, at the same place that it exists now.


       6             If we're permitted and move forward with


       7        the expanded marina, there is no reason for any


       8        additional foot traffic to go beyond where it is


       9        now.  There will be, obviously, some increase in


      10        that, but it's not going to move down the


      11        waterfront in front of the condo buildings.  And


      12        I think if you look at the diagrams of the


      13        marina, you can see that.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Steve, you guys have three


      15        minutes left.


      16             MR. NICHOLS:  Okay.  I would like to finish


      17        with one other thing, and that is the parking


      18        issue.  The parking issue, you have under your


      19        tab 7 -- I'm sorry, tab 7 is the parking issue.


      20             We kept a one-year log of all the


      21        activities in the marina and the boats that came


      22        and went and other activities, and we laid that


      23        down.  The methodology is outlined in there.  It


      24        tells you how we came to it.


      25             But an existing marina of 71 slips, eight





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to nine parking spaces is adequate for all but


       2        a -- about 13 days a year.  In the new marina,


       3        expect the same traffic.  Eight parking slips,


       4        in my opinion, based on this historical data,


       5        confirms that that is large enough.


       6             And, with that, I will conclude.


       7        Obviously, we're available for questions.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       9             MR. NICHOLS:  Thank you.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Hainline, you guys have


      11        two minutes to rebut.


      12             MR. HAINLINE:  Thank you.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Durden.


      14             (Ms. Durden approaches the podium.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Durden, name and address


      16        for the record, and you have 15 minutes.


      17             MS. DURDEN:  Thank you very much,


      18        Mr. Chairman.


      19             Brenna Durden, 245 Riverside Avenue,


      20        Suite 150, Jacksonville.


      21             As you know, there are a significant number


      22        of residents who are in opposition to the marina


      23        expansion that has been proposed.  They're also


      24        in opposition to the additional condition


      25        regarding the eight additional parking spaces





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that was proposed by -- or submitted to you by


       2        the Planning Commission.


       3             The main concern that I think you're going


       4        to hear about is the extreme intensity of what


       5        is going on on this parcel.  This is low density


       6        residential.  We have a health club that's


       7        nearly 15,000 square feet in size.  We have a


       8        proposed marina with wet slips, 135 wet slips.


       9        We have four pools.  We have six tennis courts.


      10        We have a playground.  We have a second cafe on


      11        the facility.  We have basically what amounts to


      12        a commercial enterprise inserted into what is on


      13        your future land use map as low density


      14        residential.


      15             I think you will hear from our experts that


      16        that is absolutely not permitted and not


      17        consistent with not only the express provisions


      18        in the comprehensive plan, but the intent -- the


      19        spirit and intent.


      20             You will also hear that the Planning


      21        Department has not completed its analysis of the


      22        Manatee Protection Plan that is absolutely


      23        expressly mandated in the comprehensive plan in


      24        the boating facilities siting plan.


      25             I want to raise several legal issues, one





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        deals with notice.  As you know -- or maybe as


       2        some of you may know, I have submitted to the


       3        City the notice -- the signs that were put up


       4        were put up improperly.  They put up signs in


       5        the interior of Epping Forest.  After I sent the


       6        letter, they put up the signs on the exterior,


       7        along San Jose Boulevard, in those -- however,


       8        as of last week, those signs had been removed.


       9             I'm also, on the record, going to object to


      10        the limited time that's been afforded the


      11        parties to present the testimony, whether it's


      12        me, the experts, or even the residents.


      13             In addition, I'm raising the issue about


      14        the authority of one land owner within a PUD to


      15        amend a PUD that addresses, across the board,


      16        the entire Epping Forest community.  Your own


      17        zoning code requires, in express language, that


      18        it -- that the application must contain the


      19        consent and commitment by every owner within the


      20        PUD.  I would suggest to you that that has not


      21        occurred.


      22             Now, as you know, an applicant for a


      23        rezoning must come in and establish that the


      24        project is consistent with the comp plan,


      25        furthers the goals, objectives, and policies of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the plan, and is not in conflict.  I think you


       2        will hear that that is not the case when you


       3        hear our expert testimony.  And even if it was


       4        the case, which I'm suggesting to you strongly


       5        it is not the case, that even if it is, you have


       6        a requirement to consider a legitimate public


       7        purpose, those that would curtail you from


       8        rezoning the property to allow this PUD.  That


       9        includes that it would not be consistent or


      10        compatible with the existing and proposed land


      11        uses and zoning of the adjacent and nearby


      12        properties or of the general area and will


      13        deviate from an established or developing


      14        logical and orderly development pattern.


      15             There are other reasons in that, but I'm


      16        only going to take the time for one.


      17             At this time -- I've handed out a bound


      18        volume.  I've given you that same copy.  In


      19        there, you will see that there are -- under


      20        tab 1, there are three resumes.  One is of Brian


      21        Wheeler, one is of Dawn Sonneborn, and the last


      22        one that's in that, under tab 1, is of Bill


      23        Byers.  I'm offering them as experts in land


      24        use, land design, engineering, traffic, and


      25        urban design.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I would, at this time, like to call up Dawn


       2        Sonneborn.  And could you tell us where we are


       3        in time?


       4             (Ms. Sonneborn approaches the podium.)


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  You have 10 minutes and


       6        15 seconds.


       7             MS. DURDEN:  Okay.  Would you please let


       8        our people know when they approach the three- or


       9        four-minute mark?


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


      11             Is that digital clock working there?


      12             MS. DURDEN:  What clock?


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is there a digital clock on


      14        the podium?


      15             MS. DURDEN:  No, not that we can see.  I


      16        didn't see any clock.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      18             MS. SONNEBORN:  No, it's not lit.


      19             MS. DURDEN:  So since it's not working, how


      20        are we going to --


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  I was going to ask the


      22        question -- is it on now?


      23             MS. SONNEBORN:  It's not displayed here.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Do you want me to


      25        give you a warning at two minutes, three





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        minutes, when?


       2             MS. SONNEBORN:  Three minutes.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       4             MS. SONNEBORN:  Dawn Sonneborn -- are you


       5        ready?


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, what we can do is we


       7        can set the light pole for three minutes.  So


       8        when this light right here goes red, you know


       9        you're three minutes -- you're at three


      10        minutes.


      11             MS. SONNEBORN:  Okay.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  The yellow is two minutes.


      13        And when you hit the red, then you've got --


      14        that's three minutes.


      15             I mean, you can go further past three


      16        minutes --


      17             MS. SONNEBORN:  Right.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- but just so you --


      19             MS. SONNEBORN:  Yeah.  I wanted to share


      20        the time, so . . .


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yeah.


      22             MS. SONNEBORN:  Do I wait for it to go


      23        green?


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  No.


      25             MS. SONNEBORN:  Okay.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  You can start whenever


       2        you -- give your name and address for the


       3        record.  And when you do that, he'll start it.


       4             MS. SONNEBORN:  Dawn Sonneborn, a certified


       5        planner with Genesis Group, 9250 Cypress Green


       6        Drive, in Jacksonville, Florida.


       7             I'm a certified planner with 20 years of


       8        regulatory experience, and I've taken a look at


       9        the application and want to point out some of


      10        the inconsistencies with your comprehensive


      11        plan.


      12             The future land use element in the plan


      13        category descriptions, under the secondary and


      14        supporting uses paragraph, it mentions that


      15        yacht and country clubs may be allowed in


      16        residential categories.


      17             Staff has assumed the term "yacht club" to


      18        be synonymous with "marina."  A marina is


      19        defined in the zoning code and does not use the


      20        term "yacht club" in the definition, and "yacht


      21        club" is not defined in the zoning code.


      22             It's important to note that "marina" is a


      23        use that is specifically listed in the


      24        commercial retail sales and service


      25        establishment definition of the zoning code, and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the term "marina" is not mentioned in the


       2        residential plan category description of the


       3        future land use element.  So I believe that


       4        provides the intent, that marinas were not


       5        intended for the residential category.


       6             It further states that new commercial uses


       7        shall not be allowed as secondary and supporting


       8        uses under residential where such uses would


       9        constitute an intrusion into an existing


      10        single-family neighborhood.  And, again,


      11        "marina" is listed in the commercial retail


      12        sales and service establishments definition in


      13        the code.


      14             Your comprehensive plan also states that


      15        marinas have to meet other elements -- have


      16        consistency with other elements in the comp


      17        plan, and that points you to the conservation


      18        coastal management element and states that


      19        marinas within Zone 15, which the subject site


      20        is in Zone 15, have -- marinas are acceptable


      21        with conditions, and there are a list of


      22        conditions that have to be met.


      23             "The proposed facility will have no or


      24        minimal adverse impact on manatee movements."


      25        The highest numbers of manatee sightings





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        documented over the past decade are in the lower


       2        St. Johns River area, which is in the proximity


       3        of this subject site.


       4             "The proposed facility should have no or


       5        minimal dredging."  The applicant failed to


       6        provide any documentation in relation to how


       7        this new marine construction and its ongoing


       8        operations will reduce or eliminate impact to


       9        the benthic communities and submerged aquatic


      10        vegetation.


      11             "The proposed facility is compatible with


      12        local and land use zoning."  We took a look at


      13        all the private and public marinas containing


      14        71 or more wet slips, which Brian Wheeler will


      15        be talking about, those are all in commercial or


      16        other future land use categories involving


      17        higher density.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're at three minutes.


      19             MS. SONNEBORN:  Okay.  I'll just wrap up.


      20             Also, the housing element.  Under the


      21        neighborhood stabilization, it says, "New uses


      22        shall enhance" -- or "uses enhance or do not


      23        diminish or degrade the residential character of


      24        the neighborhood."  That's something that an


      25        appraiser can't put a number to, the residential





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        character, and we feel that this definitely


       2        diminishes the residential character of the


       3        existing neighborhood, providing an


       4        inconsistency.


       5             The term "marina," as far as the zoning


       6        code, is not specifically used in any of the


       7        residential land use or zoning category


       8        descriptions.


       9             The word "marina," it starts to be used in


      10        the zoning code when you're talking about the IW


      11        zoning district, which is by exception; the


      12        ag- -- and, again, that relates you back to


      13        meeting all of the boat siting -- boat facility


      14        siting criteria of the Manatee Protection Plan,


      15        which I mentioned about earlier, and it also


      16        mentions that in ROS and the downtown overlay


      17        zone.  So those, I believe, are intended to be


      18        higher intensity zoning districts rather than


      19        the low density residential category's intent.


      20             Thank you.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      22             Hold on a second.  I think -- you have a


      23        question for this?


      24             MR. WEBB:  I can hold my question.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you want to hold them or





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        do you want to ask?


       2             MR. WEBB:  It's up to you.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead.


       4             MR. WEBB:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       5             I'm sorry, ma'am.  What's your name again,


       6        please?


       7             MS. SONNEBORN:  Dawn Sonneborn.


       8             MR. WEBB:  Ms. Sonneborn, a couple -- a


       9        question on the comp plan issue that you


      10        raised.


      11             You say that -- well, what is the existing


      12        comp plan designation for this property?


      13             MS. SONNEBORN:  Low density residential.


      14             MR. WEBB:  It's LDR.  All right.


      15             And, obviously, you're saying a commercial


      16        marina enterprise would not be appropriate


      17        within LDR.


      18             MS. SONNEBORN:  Uh-huh.


      19             MR. WEBB:  That makes perfect sense, but --


      20        but the original -- the PUD contemplates a yacht


      21        club; is that correct?


      22             MS. SONNEBORN:  Right.


      23             MR. WEBB:  All right.  But this is -- this


      24        facility is not a commercial marina in that


      25        there is no gas facility, there's no boatyard,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        there's no mechanical work being done.  This is


       2        more of a -- I would describe it as a


       3        noncommercial -- if you want to call it a


       4        marina, that's fine, but it's more of a


       5        noncommercial boat slip -- call it whatever you


       6        will, but is that -- is such a use in the --


       7        take the marina use, take away the commercial,


       8        it leaves kind of a boat club.  Is a boat club


       9        allowed, is it a permissive use -- permitted use


      10        under the LDR?


      11             MS. SONNEBORN:  I understand that this


      12        facility will have boat slips that are for


      13        rental for outside public use.  It's not for


      14        residents only within -- within Epping Forest.


      15             MR. WEBB:  Yeah, that's correct.


      16             But through the Chair, again, the original


      17        PUD, what I understand, contemplated both a


      18        private -- well, a public club.  So clearly the


      19        original PUD permitted -- the use for a club was


      20        consistent with the LDR classification, I would


      21        assume that to be the case.


      22             This is an expansion of what has previously


      23        been deemed an acceptable, permitted use under


      24        LDR as contemplated by the existing PUD; is that


      25        correct?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. SONNEBORN:  The yacht club is a


       2        secondary use that's mentioned in the intent,


       3        but "yacht club" is not defined anywhere within


       4        the comprehensive plan or the zoning code, and


       5        the word "marina" is used all throughout the


       6        application and all throughout the staff's


       7        report.  So the word "yacht club" and "marina"


       8        have kind of been intertwined here.


       9             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  All right.  I'll get


      10        general counsel's position on that.


      11             Thank you very much.  Appreciate that.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      13             (Mr. Wheeler approaches the podium.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Wheeler, there's six


      15        minutes left on the clock.


      16             MR. WHEELER:  Can we get the overhead


      17        operable?


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


      19             He won't start it until you give your name


      20        and address for the record, so take your time.


      21             Do you want me to let you know at two,


      22        three, four minutes?  How far in?


      23             MR. WHEELER:  When we've got -- what have


      24        we got left now, five?


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  You've got six minutes left.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. WHEELER:  Six?


       2             When we have three minutes left.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       4             MR. WHEELER:  Okay.  You could open it to


       5        the first page.


       6             MS. ALLEN:  (Complies.)


       7             MR. WHEELER:  You may have to share a few.


       8             All right.  Brian Wheeler, 9250 Cypress


       9        Green Drive.


      10             The issue is not only the interpretation of


      11        the comprehensive plan and staff's review of the


      12        LDRs and how they may relate to this, but it's


      13        also the empirical evidence of what the


      14        community has done with regards to marinas in


      15        LDR before.


      16             If you look at a marina of this size -- the


      17        only reason this marina is here is because it


      18        was constructed in the 1920s.  It was


      19        essentially grandfathered in as part of that


      20        original PUD.  There was actually a great deal


      21        of letters written in concern over allowing it


      22        to be reconfigured for 71 slips within the


      23        original horseshoe configuration.


      24             We searched throughout all of the records


      25        in the comprehensive plan, in the City's own





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        records, for a marina that would be 71 slips or


       2        larger.  The only examples we found were not in


       3        LDR land use categories, such as Lamb's and


       4        others.  Granted, they provide a greater level


       5        of commercial service, but it is still not in


       6        LDR.


       7             An example of this is on the overhead.  You


       8        can go through the next several.  You will see


       9        the ones down in Julington Creek.  She's


      10        switched to the ones in the downtown area.  All


      11        of these have wet slips greater than 71.


      12             If you move and expand this -- now, this is


      13        a new zoning application for a PUD to PUD to


      14        increase this to 136 slips.  That will set a


      15        precedent, for the first time, of putting LDR


      16        and "marina" into the same land use category.


      17             All right.  Switch to the next one.


      18             MS. ALLEN:  (Complies.)


      19             MR. WHEELER:  T.R. mentioned the


      20        Jacksonville Yacht Club.  Again, an older yacht


      21        club from the 1920s that is grandfathered in.


      22             I can't see what you've got on the screen


      23        from here.


      24             This is -- the ones out at the Beach


      25        Boulevard area, where you see an MDR land use,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        which is the closest land use category to LDR,


       2        where you'll find a marina of this size.  Some


       3        of these also don't include commercial services,


       4        such as fuel and those type of things.


       5             Go ahead to the next one.


       6             MS. ALLEN:  (Complies.)


       7             MR. WHEELER:  So what we find, then, is --


       8        the only place we can find a similar example is


       9        in Queens Harbour that has almost a thousand


      10        residents and a 60-slip marina that was all done


      11        as part of a PUD and, again, prior to when our


      12        existing comprehensive plan was enacted in


      13        1990.  So this will be a precedent-setting case,


      14        which will reach beyond just the boundaries of


      15        the Epping Forest original PUD.


      16             Go to this one right here (indicating).


      17             MS. ALLEN:  (Complies.)


      18             MR. WHEELER:  Now, if we look at what's


      19        required for a yacht club, all you need is two


      20        acres.  It doesn't say anything about water or


      21        frontage or boat slips.  All it says is that you


      22        need two acres of uplands.


      23             The applicant is not asking to add on to


      24        the yacht club.  All of these properties that


      25        you see listed are within one mile of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        subject site.  They all have two acres in


       2        frontage on the water.  They're all going to be


       3        next in line asking for a PUD rezoning for a,


       4        quote, yacht club so that they can put a


       5        136-slip marina out front.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir --


       7             MR. WHEELER:  So we're setting a very


       8        dangerous precedent and we're not addressing, in


       9        terms of the application, the more specific


      10        issues of neighborhood compatibility.


      11             And Bill Byers is going to summarize some


      12        of those issues.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Wheeler, hold on.


      14        There's a question for you.


      15             MR. WHEELER:  Yes.


      16             MR. WEBB:  I apologize for delaying this,


      17        but I -- again, I want clarification on this


      18        1920s issue.


      19             You said this -- through the Chair, sir,


      20        you said that this was grandfathered in, this


      21        was the Dupont estate, Dupont built the slips --


      22        had the wet slips out there, whatever it was,


      23        and then we -- the PUD is applied for in the


      24        1920s, and this thing is granted.


      25             So your position is that it was granted --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        what you're saying, I guess, is that,


       2        effectively, this is a legal nonconforming use,


       3        would that be --


       4             MR. WHEELER:  This is a legal nonconforming


       5        use.  Since the adoption of the comp plan in


       6        1990, there's been no other marinas located in


       7        an LDR land use category --


       8             MR. WEBB:  All right.  Well, we --


       9             MR. WHEELER:  -- that we could find record


      10        of based on the City's own documents and your


      11        comprehensive plan.


      12             MR. WEBB:  And, again -- thank you, sir.


      13             I mean, I request that the General


      14        Counsel's Office -- Shannon.  Through the Chair


      15        to Shannon, we're going to -- I'm going to have


      16        questions about this once we get through all the


      17        presentations.


      18             MS. ELLER:  Okay.


      19             MR. WEBB:  Thank you.


      20             (Mr. Byers approaches the podium.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, when you get ready,


      22        name and address for the record and you'll have


      23        three minutes left.


      24             MR. BYERS:  My name is Bill Byers with


      25        Genesis Group, 9250 Cypress Green Drive,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Jacksonville, Florida.


       2             The issues that we want to raise today


       3        relate to health, safety and welfare related to


       4        the PUD application.  Predominantly, the -- one


       5        thing I want to point out is the parking.


       6             The parking is still a consideration on


       7        this project.  The concessions or the -- the


       8        intent of reducing parking is a concern for the


       9        residents -- for some of the residents.


      10             As the exhibit that I just passed out


      11        shows, the parking for special events and the


      12        terminus to the marina -- the existing marina is


      13        encumbered with parking through special events


      14        and some other things that create a safety


      15        problem for fire and emergency vehicle access to


      16        the marina itself.


      17             One of the things that the picture shows


      18        in -- picture number 1 shows the emergency


      19        vehicle access lane.  Picture number 2 has a


      20        different view of the vehicles parked along that


      21        corridor.  Picture number 3 has the parking lot


      22        and the amount of spaces that are needed.  And


      23        picture number 4 shows San Jose Boulevard with


      24        cars parked along the corridor.  So parking


      25        continues to be a concern for the project.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             With respect to fire safety, one of the


       2        concerns that we have is -- there's a single


       3        fire hydrant that runs to the end of the


       4        emergency access lane.  The fire hydrant is a


       5        terminal end fire hydrant.  It's on an


       6        eight-inch line.  We're concerned about the fire


       7        safety and meeting the conditions for the NFPA


       8        requirements for marinas.


       9             We have evaluated that, and there is --


      10        there's -- we believe that there's some


      11        inadequate fire protection on the project, and


      12        we can get into some -- I'd like to submit some


      13        details to you on that, particularly with regard


      14        to the fire hydrant.  Where it's located, there


      15        are no standpipes.  It's got a lay-down area


      16        that's a concern for the -- the distance from a


      17        fire hydrant to the mooring facilities, and some


      18        other specifics that I can outline for you.


      19             The third thing that I wanted to point out


      20        was the drainage concerns for the project with


      21        the parking lot as it's got -- as it's


      22        configured.


      23             The drainage that -- we think is inadequate


      24        for -- to serve the project, and there may be


      25        some other opportunities to address that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        concern, but we believe that drainage is a


       2        concern considering the proximity of the parking


       3        lot and the way that the drainage works within


       4        the property, so . . .


       5             The primary concern that we have is for the


       6        parking.  And, with that, I'll close.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       8             Mr. Hainline, do you want to go and close


       9        now or do you want to listen to the speakers?


      10             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)


      11             MR. HAINLINE:  If it's okay with you, I'll


      12        go ahead and go now, and then the residents,


      13        slash, member speakers can just speak within


      14        their one-minute time.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  I gave the other side an


      16        extra 45 seconds, so you have two minutes and


      17        45 seconds.


      18             MR. HAINLINE:  Okay.  Thank you.


      19             T.R. Hainline, 1301 Riverplace Boulevard.


      20             The planners -- first of all, I'd like


      21        you -- of course, to remind you that your expert


      22        planners, as well as my expert planners at the


      23        Planning Commission meeting, testified we meet


      24        all criteria in the code and are consistent with


      25        the comprehensive plan.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             The planner who testified for the


       2        opposition today said this:  She said that a


       3        yacht club, if it has something that's called a


       4        marina in it, it's no longer a yacht club and so


       5        it's not permitted anymore -- because a yacht


       6        club is specifically permitted in LDR.  That


       7        much she said -- that much is true.


       8             She said if a yacht club has a marina in


       9        it, then it's not permitted anymore.  Well, a


      10        yacht club has to have boat slips.  I'm sorry,


      11        that's why it's called a yacht club.


      12             Now, if you have a country club and it has


      13        a bar in it -- which all country clubs do, at


      14        least every one I've ever been in -- do you say


      15        that that's commercial now because it has a bar


      16        in it?  Or a restaurant -- if a country club has


      17        a restaurant in it, do you say, "Oh, a


      18        restaurant, that's a commercial facility.  Here


      19        are all the restaurants that are in CGC, so


      20        that's now a commercial facility.  Oh, my gosh.


      21        This restaurant has 200 seats in it, it's a


      22        commercial facility"?  No.


      23             Country clubs have certain uses that are


      24        assumed, and certainly a yacht club has a marina


      25        assumed.  The fact that you have a marina in a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        yacht club, which is inherent in the meaning of


       2        a yacht club, doesn't mean you, all of a sudden,


       3        lose your status as a yacht club and become not


       4        permitted.


       5             Mr. Wheeler said that the number of slips


       6        makes this no longer a permitted yacht club use;


       7        the number of slips makes it an unpermitted


       8        commercial use.  That's nowhere in the code.


       9        It's nowhere in your comp plan.


      10             In fact, he later said, in his own


      11        testimony, that, oh, the criteria that are in


      12        the code for a yacht club -- and, by the way, I


      13        can cite you the provisions that are -- that


      14        relate to a yacht club, 656.401(F)(2) and


      15        656.305(A)(2)(10).


      16             He said later those provisions don't limit


      17        the number of slips in a yacht club.  They


      18        don't.  His testimony is an invention.  It's not


      19        in your code or in your comprehensive plan.


      20             He also said this is a legal nonconforming


      21        use.  That's nonsense.  This is a PUD approved


      22        in 1985, not 1920.  It was amended as recently


      23        as 1999, not 1920.  And so this is a legal use.


      24        It is a legal use pursuant to its PUD.  It's not


      25        grandfathered or nonconforming.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             There were some comments about the drive


       2        down to the marina, having a bunch of cars in


       3        it.  I will say that more recently, within the


       4        past year or so, the club has taken special


       5        measures during special events to make sure that


       6        drive doesn't have cars parked up and down it, a


       7        barricade, there are No Parking signs all along


       8        there, and there's a person posted there.  If


       9        you have any questions about that, I can bring


      10        Mr. Nichols up.


      11             The last issue is the fire code.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Your time is up.


      13             MR. HAINLINE:  We will meet the fire code.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  But hold on.  There's a


      15        question for you.


      16             MR. HAINLINE:  Okay.


      17             MR. WEBB:  Yours truly.


      18             Through the Chair, Mr. Hainline, the prior


      19        amendments to the PUD, did they address


      20        expansion of the slips?


      21             MR. HAINLINE:  No.  There was no prior


      22        amendment that addressed expansion of the


      23        slips.  The slips were set in the original PUD,


      24        and that's what we're asking to be set now.


      25        They addressed other issues.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  With respect to the use


       2        that is the yacht club, this is not open to the


       3        public; it's just open to resident members and


       4        non-resident members; is that a correct


       5        statement?


       6             MR. HAINLINE:  That is correct.


       7             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Thank you.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Hold on.  There's another


       9        question for you.


      10             Mr. Joost.


      11             MR. JOOST:  Actually, it's for the -- a


      12        member of your team, the harbor master.


      13             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes.


      14             MR. JOOST:  Mr. Nichols.


      15             MR. HAINLINE:  Steve Nichols.


      16             (Mr. Nichols approaches the podium.)


      17             MR. JOOST:  Captain Nichols, Admiral, what


      18        are the -- I'm just curious, what are the hours


      19        of operation of the marina?


      20             MR. NICHOLS:  If I might, through the


      21        Chair, the -- as you know, it's a gated


      22        community, and the club operates generally --


      23        the hours of memberships coming into the


      24        community, I believe -- this is not my area of


      25        complete expertise -- is 5:00 to 11:00 p.m.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        After 11:00 p.m., at the gated community, only


       2        residents and boat slip holders on file at the


       3        guard gate are allowed in.


       4             So the boaters who have a boat there have


       5        access to their boat basically 24/7.  The marina


       6        hours itself -- we have staff on site -- vary


       7        from winter to summer, but it's basically


       8        nine-hour days.  Currently, summer hours are


       9        9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., but then we have the


      10        gated community issue that also controls access.


      11             MR. JOOST:  So if I'm a non-resident


      12        member, I have access from 5:00 a.m. to


      13        11:00 p.m.?


      14             MR. NICHOLS:  That is correct, I believe.


      15             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Thank you.


      16             MR. NICHOLS:  Thank you.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  I guess I have a question


      18        because I'm seeing the group that's out here.


      19             If you're in support of this zoning change,


      20        can I get you to please stand.


      21             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Comply.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you very much.


      23             If you're in opposition to the zoning


      24        change, could I get you to please stand.


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Comply.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you very much.


       2             Now, anybody that wishes to add anything


       3        else, we'll give you about a minute.  We'll be a


       4        little loose with that, but if you want to add


       5        any new testimony, please feel free to come up


       6        and give your name and address for the record.


       7             And if you haven't already filled out a


       8        blue speaker card, make sure you do so.  If you


       9        have, then we have it on file.


      10             Hold on a second.


      11             Mr. Nichols, would you please come up.


      12        There's another question for you.


      13             (Mr. Nichols approaches the podium.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  And if I can get the experts


      15        to just come on down to the front row because


      16        I'm sure when this comes -- when we close the


      17        public hearing, there's going to be some


      18        questions from the council members.  And rather


      19        than you guys having to push through, if you


      20        guys would just come up on the front row.


      21             MR. JOOST:  I'm sorry.  One other question.


      22             I was going through your log.  Is there


      23        anywhere in the log where it's -- where it


      24        documents the average duration that somebody is


      25        using their boat?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. NICHOLS:  We did not track that.


       2             I guess with a great deal of effort, we


       3        could go back and do that.


       4             What it does do is -- if a boat -- it


       5        tracks not only resident boats but members who


       6        do not keep their boat there that come in.  And


       7        our rule for that log is, if a boat went out or


       8        came back during the same day --


       9             MR. JOOST:  That's one trip.


      10             MR. NICHOLS:  -- that's one trip.


      11             If it came in one day and left another day,


      12        then that's two trips.


      13             MR. JOOST:  Right.


      14             MR. NICHOLS:  But I can't tell you the


      15        average duration of each vessel.  I don't -- I


      16        don't have that calculated.


      17             MR. JOOST:  Well, what I'm attempting to do


      18        is to try to reconcile the usage with the --


      19        with your logbook saying you only need a few


      20        more parking spaces.


      21             MR. NICHOLS:  I'm sorry, I did not


      22        understand the question.


      23             MR. JOOST:  I'm just -- what I'm attempting


      24        to do is to try and reconcile the usage -- okay,


      25        if there's only 18 hours a day to use it, and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        then I was looking at some other information


       2        that -- generate 400 trips a day, 26 peak-hour


       3        trips.


       4             I was trying to figure out what the


       5        duration of each trip was, and then you can kind


       6        of back in to whether that backs up your log as


       7        to what -- that you only need, like, three or


       8        four or eight additional spaces per day.


       9             MR. NICHOLS:  Okay.  If I could go -- if I


      10        could, through the Chair, go through the


      11        methodology that we used to calculate that.


      12             First of all, if we come in in the morning


      13        and a boat is gone because it left late at night


      14        or early the next morning, we log it as a trip.


      15             If a boat left at 8:00 p.m. and came back


      16        at 10:00 p.m., we wouldn't know that happened,


      17        so I don't have it.


      18             So what we did is we took the average


      19        number -- the log moves per day.  The actual log


      20        moves per day.


      21             We added 20 percent in case we missed


      22        some.  So it went from two-and-a-half movements


      23        per day, added 20 percent, that's another half a


      24        movement.  We said that's three movements.  And


      25        we said, then there are people who come down to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        their boat and park in the lot but they don't go


       2        anywhere, so we doubled it, took that to six.


       3        And then we said, we have to have a margin in


       4        there.  We added two more.  That's how we came


       5        to the number eight.


       6             So we have anticipated that we didn't catch


       7        everything.


       8             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  I guess I'll just ask


       9        some questions later.


      10             It just struck me as a little odd because


      11        in the Planning Department documents it was


      12        saying regular weekend average was 25 percent,


      13        and if you added 64 spaces, that would tend


      14        to -- my math says you need 16 spaces.  But


      15        without knowing what the actual duration was --


      16             MR. NICHOLS:  If I might respond to that


      17        very quickly.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


      19             MR. NICHOLS:  We're back to this marina and


      20        yacht club situation.


      21             I'm sure that the figures that you saw was


      22        taking a commercial marina.  And so if you have


      23        liveaboards in your marina, there's going to be


      24        at least one automobile every day for a trip and


      25        many times two.  If there's a couple living on a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        boat, there may be two vehicles.


       2             The discrepancy between what you would see


       3        in parking use in a commercial marina versus our


       4        yacht club facility is the fact that we don't


       5        have many of the ancillary things that you have


       6        in a commercial marina.  We don't have boatyard


       7        service.  We don't have liveaboards.


       8             It's a different facility in that respect,


       9        and I'm -- I can't speak for the Planning


      10        Commission, but I -- or the Planning Department,


      11        but I presume they took a marina and used the


      12        calculations for a marina.


      13             MR. JOOST:  All right.  Well, not to delay


      14        the proceedings, I'll ask that very question


      15        later.


      16             Thank you.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      18             Mr. Webb, do you have a question for --


      19             MR. WEBB:  (Inaudible.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  If there's somebody


      21        in the audience that would like to speak, make


      22        your way up front, your name and address for the


      23        record.  You have about a minute.


      24             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm Sidney Gefen.  I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        reside at 6740 Epping Forest Way North.


       2             I've been a resident of Epping Forest for


       3        21 years now.  I'm one of the original owners.


       4        I'm past president of the Hampstead Riverfront


       5        Villas Association.


       6             Now, when I bought the building from Herb


       7        Peyton, they issued a brochure.  It's riverfront


       8        villas.  So they can't say that we weren't


       9        supposed to have riverfront property or a


      10        riverfront view.  We knew they were going to


      11        have the walkway or promenade for everybody


      12        else, so if -- about five to eight foot back


      13        from the bulkhead, and they wanted the use for


      14        everybody else, but, however, we have had


      15        riverfront views.


      16             And I noticed in the booklet you have


      17        here -- I'm not able to testify about the


      18        natural beauty.  We would not have bought the


      19        place if they had ever had a marina in front of


      20        our places.  We spent a lot of money there.


      21             I'm a resident of Jacksonville for over


      22        67 years.  I came over here with Captain Mason


      23        to open up NAS Jacksonville.  I was over in


      24        Pensacola, went away from the war, built a


      25        business here, have my family here, and we hope





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to -- this council will -- the members of the


       2        council will recognize what we have here.


       3             We have six widows living in our building.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, your time is up.


       5             MR. GEFEN:  The building is 100 percent


       6        against this marina.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       8             Next.


       9             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      10             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Mr. Chairman and


      11        committee, my name is Bruce Homeyer.  I live at


      12        6756 Linford Lane, which is in Epping Forest.


      13             I'm a member of the yacht club, I'm a boat


      14        owner, I'm a former flag officer of the yacht


      15        club, and I -- my wife and I moved to Epping


      16        Forest in 2002 because of all the reasons that


      17        you've heard, and the one thing that I would


      18        point out at this -- at this juncture is that


      19        the health club, the low density housing, the


      20        eating facilities, the tennis courts, and all


      21        the other amenities at Epping Forest are as they


      22        will be.


      23             The marina represents the only part of the


      24        facility that -- at Epping Forest that can be


      25        improved at this point, and I firmly believe





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that improvement of the marina will add to


       2        property values and enhance the use for all of


       3        the residents and the nonmembers.


       4             I urge you to approve the application.


       5             Thank you very much.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       7             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ma'am.  Name and address for


       9        the record, please, ma'am.


      10             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Berrylin


      11        McGehee Houston.  I live at Epping Forest, 6740


      12        Epping Forest Way North, in one of the condos.


      13             I wrote you-all an e-mail and sent it


      14        yesterday.  I hope you were -- had time to read


      15        it, so I won't repeat what I said in the e-mail,


      16        but I do want to encourage you to really study


      17        these issues.


      18             We were just absolutely overwhelmed at the


      19        Planning Commission meeting when they determined


      20        that doubling the size of the marina only called


      21        for eight extra parking spaces.  How in the


      22        world do you only need eight more places when


      23        you have increased the number of boat slips,


      24        double, is -- is preposterous.


      25             We felt like our testimony was not heard,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        and we really urge you to read that testimony


       2        from the Planning Commission if you have not


       3        done so already.


       4             Also, we were struck by the fact that


       5        everyone who spoke in favor of expanding the


       6        marina did not live on the riverfront.  In fact,


       7        the vast majority don't live in Epping at all.


       8        There were two people who spoke at the Planning


       9        Commission meeting who were Epping residents,


      10        neither of which lived in the condominiums,


      11        which are most impacted by this.


      12             We really feel like that we have not been


      13        heard.  The fact that you've given us one minute


      14        to speak today adds insult to injury when our


      15        voices were not heard at the Planning


      16        Commission.


      17             We were shocked when they adopted eight


      18        additional parking spaces when their own staff


      19        had recommended 25.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Houston, your time is


      21        up.


      22             MS. HOUSTON:  Thank you.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      24             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Mr. Chairman, council --


       2        committee, excuse me.  My name is Nathan


       3        Franzblau.  I live at 1853 Colwood Court, in


       4        Epping Forest.  And I am a condo owner at 6730


       5        Epping Forest Way North.


       6             I am a resident of Epping.  I am a condo


       7        owner at Epping.  I am a member of the yacht


       8        club at Epping.  I am a boating member of


       9        Epping.  I'm a tenant with a boat at Epping.


      10        I'm a former flag officer, captain of the power


      11        fleet at Epping.  I currently serve at the


      12        pleasure of the master association board, which


      13        represents the residents, and have for the last


      14        three and a half years.  I am the president of


      15        the master association.


      16             I speak on behalf of Epping Forest.  I am


      17        passionate about the community and its


      18        protection.  And when I speak for the Epping


      19        Forest Yacht Club, I speak to the future of


      20        Epping Forest.


      21             It is probably going to change residents


      22        over years, and seeing the yard -- excuse me --


      23        the marina itself does not empty just because


      24        somebody moves away.  The slips become more and


      25        more limited.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             So the idea of increasing the slips at the


       2        marina increases the opportunity for residents


       3        to sell their homes and for other residents


       4        outside the community to buy homes within there


       5        because they do have an ability to keep their


       6        boat at Epping Forest.


       7             Thank you very much.  I appreciate it very


       8        much, the opportunity to speak.  Thank you.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      10             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, take your time.


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is William L.


      13        Durden.  I live at 1908 Epping Forest South.


      14             And I can tell you after a 63-year practice


      15        in Jacksonville, Epping Forest is the most


      16        highly utilized 13 acres in the county.  You


      17        would not believe what is crowded in that


      18        13 acres.


      19             I live at Epping Forest Way South, which is


      20        up against the fence.  Fifteen feet from my back


      21        patio is Hendricks Avenue.  Fortunately, there's


      22        only been two cars come in through the fence so


      23        far.


      24             But this is not an appropriate thing.  It


      25        should not be converted into a commercial yacht





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        basin.  It's a residential community.  It is --


       2        we already have 243 residents in the community.


       3        We have 13 acres at -- I don't know how many


       4        that is per acre, but I would suggest it's about


       5        20, and that's about as dense a use as you can


       6        find.


       7             I walk a lot -- before I got my new knee.


       8        Hope to walk a little bit more, but there's


       9        no -- not a square foot in that whole forest


      10        that's not overutilized.


      11             If you took a picture, you see nothing but


      12        density.  There's not -- nobody has a yard more


      13        than 10 feet by 10 feet, with one exception, in


      14        the gardens out front of the mansion.  It is


      15        already highly overutilized.  Please do not


      16        permit this.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      18             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.


      21             I'm Barbara Jaffe, 6750 Epping Forest Way


      22        North.


      23             I am a resident, a condo resident of Epping


      24        Forest.  I've lived there for 21 years.  And


      25        when I moved into Epping, it was my thought that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the marina was ancillary to the residents of the


       2        project.  Now the marina is becoming what's


       3        wagging the dog here.


       4             The pictures that Mr. Hainline talked about


       5        that were of the parking and the parking is no


       6        longer a problem going down to the fire lane,


       7        they were taken two months ago, one month ago, a


       8        few weeks ago.  Not so.  If they have changed


       9        the policy of not letting people park in the


      10        fire lane, it's been within the last 24 hours.


      11             The thing -- in my estimate, the whole


      12        thing here is about money, that there is some


      13        financial issues at Epping and they'd like to


      14        have more money and that's why they're doing the


      15        marina, at the expense of the residents.  And if


      16        they would like a compromise on our part, come


      17        to us and tell us that you want a food minimum


      18        or that you want to raise the dues, but don't do


      19        it by changing the character of our neighborhood


      20        that we bought and have lived in for 20 years.


      21             Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      23             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, welcome.


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, gentlemen.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             My name is John Wells.  I'm one of the


       2        condominium owners at Epping Forest.  I haven't


       3        been there for 20 years, but I've been there for


       4        eight.  I'm a boater, like Mr. Franzblau.  I


       5        think boating is wonderful.


       6             As for density I say bully good to the


       7        folks because you know what?  They're happy


       8        people.  We walk the sidewalks.  Our children


       9        play.  Life is nice.


      10             I think an expansion of the marina is an


      11        excellent idea.  This city has spent millions of


      12        dollars bragging about being the River City.


      13        This is a private way to expand that utilization


      14        and theme.


      15             Thank you very much.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      17             Ma'am.


      18             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      20             My name is Lucy Jensen.  I'm another condo


      21        owner.  My address is 6740 Epping Forest Way.


      22             My concern is security, not necessarily


      23        today, but if this all goes through.


      24             The PUD and the explanations that I have


      25        been given by the harbor master in going to some





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of the other meetings, they have said that there


       2        will be long slips, therefore, permitting --


       3        long slips would have a bigger boat, bigger


       4        yacht, and would have a crew.


       5             Now, as the harbor master has just said,


       6        they have hours 24 hours.  What we're concerned


       7        about -- I am a widow.  I speak for all the


       8        widows at Epping, and there are a great number.


       9        There are six in my building.  We are concerned


      10        about the crews.  It's night; they come off.


      11        Who is going to be able to police those people


      12        and be sure that those people actually go to


      13        their cars, get -- actually get off of the


      14        property?


      15             I thank you.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      17             Sir.


      18             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Nick Simonis.


      20        I live at 12744 Cormorant Cove Lane,


      21        Jacksonville, Florida.


      22             I'm the power fleet captain of the power


      23        fleet, and I'm for this expansion of the


      24        marina.


      25             I'm going to be the future of Epping





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Forest.  I plan to buy inside Epping Forest


       2        soon, and I plan to have a bigger boat one day.


       3        And denying me the right to buy a bigger boat


       4        and not having a crew -- I'm not planning to


       5        have a crew; I drive my own boat.  I will be


       6        driving my new boat, and I am for this


       7        expansion.


       8             This is not about parking spaces.  This is


       9        not about manatees.  This is not about fire.


      10        This is about their view.  That's all it is,


      11        just the bottom line.


      12             That's all I have to say.  Thank you very


      13        much.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      15             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      16             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      17             I'm Don Blaser, 6760 Linford Lane.


      18             I've had a boat at Epping Forest since


      19        1995, and my feeling on this is -- I'm


      20        completely in support.  Access to the river is


      21        very important, but I'd like to respond to one


      22        comment by one of my neighbors.  And I know


      23        she's sincere in it and I sincerely would like


      24        to simply say I understand the rules at Epping,


      25        and none of us are allowed to have crew that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        live on our boats or stay on our boats.  They


       2        never have been, and in the future I've been


       3        told that there absolutely will not be crew


       4        there.  I wouldn't have it any other way because


       5        I'm also a resident, and I think that's a very


       6        important thing to bring out.  I don't know


       7        where that came from, but there is no change


       8        that I've heard of.


       9             I'd like to support this.  I'd like to


      10        hopefully be able to take my boat that barely


      11        fits in and be able to get it in a larger slip,


      12        and I believe most of the boats that will be


      13        going -- that are already too large for their


      14        slips and pose somewhat of a safety hazard will


      15        be moving to that marina and the empty slips in


      16        the existing marina will be filled with more


      17        appropriately-sized boats.


      18             And I -- you know, I think it's kind of


      19        blown out of proportion as far as some of the


      20        100-foot yachts.  They wouldn't fit.


      21             Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      23             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      25             I'm Jim Callahan, 7746 Deerwood Point





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Place.


       2             I've been a member of Epping for 12 years.


       3        I'm currently serving as the vice commodore.  I


       4        have kept a boat there for 12 years.


       5             Epping is -- has been open for about -- a


       6        little over 20 years.  We still have the same


       7        number of slips.  During that period of time,


       8        because we have an open membership and we cater


       9        to our members, we have grown to be over


      10        1,400 members.


      11             In that length of time, you've heard --


      12        you're aware that we had other designations,


      13        other expansions of the PUD.  When we found we


      14        needed a larger fitness center to serve our


      15        members, we went and spent the money for a new


      16        expansion.  We did the same thing for the tennis


      17        people, and we enhanced the swimming area.


      18             Now it's come to the point where we have


      19        several hundred members that are boaters.  They


      20        would like to get more use out of the marina


      21        than just day visits and, therefore, wait in


      22        some cases two years for space.  And this is all


      23        about giving access to the river, I think, and


      24        we're willing to do it on our own.  We're just


      25        asking for support of our plan because we're





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        wanting to enhance the property for our members.


       2             Thank you very much for your support.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       4             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Lawrence


       6        Jaffe.  I reside at 6750 Epping Forest Way, in


       7        Epping Forest, right next to the marina.


       8             I just would like to rebut comments that


       9        are made about the view.  This is not only about


      10        the view.  As an example, when my condo -- which


      11        is right next to the gardens, right next to the


      12        existing marina, or yacht, whatever you want to


      13        call it, boat slips -- there was a tall palm


      14        tree.  When I went up there to look at what


      15        was -- the construction going on, I called the


      16        then project manager and said, I can't see the


      17        yacht facility.  The tree is blocking it.  He


      18        said, Oh, no.  Oh, no.  It's not.  I said, I'll


      19        meet you there at one o'clock.


      20             We went up there at one o'clock and he


      21        looked at it and says, Holy moly.  You're


      22        absolutely correct.  This is what we have to


      23        do -- the tree was removed at their expense.


      24             So it's not just about the view; it's about


      25        the residents versus the boat owners.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Thank you.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Mark Gelman.


       5        My address is 1824 Epping Forest Way South.


       6             As you might notice, I'm slightly younger


       7        than most of the people that have testified here


       8        today, and I represent a lot of people in our


       9        community that have young families, young


      10        children.  There are literally dozens of


      11        children that live and play in the streets of


      12        Epping Forest.


      13             And as commercial as it is now and busy as


      14        it is now, I oppose this marina project because


      15        the end result can be nothing but increased


      16        traffic in our neighborhood.


      17             I have done a lot of thinking and I tried


      18        to stay neutral on this subject, but, mulling it


      19        over, I think that speaking against it is


      20        actually the right thing to do.


      21             I would also say that there has not been


      22        substantial notice to the homeowners.  Every


      23        homeowner I've spoken with before today has been


      24        against this marina project.  There hasn't been


      25        a vote, there hasn't been a meeting, there's





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        been nothing.  The homeowners association hasn't


       2        even called this to any of the homeowners'


       3        attention.


       4             Be that as it may, if this council is


       5        inclined to grant the PUD application, I would


       6        pray that this council takes a very, very close


       7        look at our community.  And I pray that this


       8        council, if it elects to accept the PUD


       9        proposal, accepts it only under the provisions


      10        as approved by the Planning Commission, and that


      11        is by saving the oaks, the green areas that


      12        currently exist.


      13             Thank you.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      15             Is there anybody else that wishes to


      16        speak?


      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening,


      19        Mr. Chairman.


      20             I'm Bob Garces.  I live at 1331 North 1st


      21        Street, Jacksonville Beach, Florida.


      22             Born in Jacksonville.  I've been here maybe


      23        30 years.


      24             That was a joke.  "Oh, you don't look very


      25        old."





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I want to comment just briefly on one of


       2        the statements that Mr. Wheeler made.  And I'm


       3        not sure I understand about PUDs and so forth


       4        and what's approved and what's not, but he made


       5        a statement that there has not been a marina


       6        approved for more than 70 slips for X number of


       7        years.


       8             Well, since I was not able to get my boat


       9        in Epping, I had to buy a slip down at


      10        Harbor Town, which is a brand-new marina there


      11        at Atlantic Boulevard and the Intracoastal.  The


      12        waiting list is just years to get there.  I


      13        don't know where he got his research.  It's not


      14        a commercial marina.  There's no facilities


      15        there as far as gas, repairs, or haul-outs.


      16        There are beautiful condos around there, you


      17        know, similar to the condos at Epping.  They're


      18        just magnificent, on the Intracoastal.


      19             So I just want to refute what he said about


      20        that and just want to let you know I'm very much


      21        in favor of the expansion of the marina, yacht


      22        club at Epping Forest.


      23             Thank you very much.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      25             Is there anybody else that wishes to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        speak?


       2             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Before I close the public


       4        hearing, is there anybody that had anything they


       5        wanted to add because they were shorted of time,


       6        that was not said?


       7             MS. DURDEN:  (Inaudible.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Not you.  You got your


       9        15 minutes.


      10             Anybody else?


      11             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you very much.


      13             We'll close the public hearing.


      14             Mr. Shad, did you wish to speak before or


      15        after we read the amendments?


      16             MR. SHAD:  I'll say something first.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      18             MR. SHAD:  Committee, you know, I just want


      19        to -- I can tell by the questions that you


      20        asked -- and it's always nice to have an


      21        attorney on the committee -- thanks, Mr. Webb --


      22        that, you know, you take careful and thorough


      23        consideration, you know, on this application


      24        because it is emotional and it is complex in


      25        some regards.  It has some aspects to it that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        were not -- it's not cookie-cutter, and I know


       2        you'll do that.


       3             I'm going to voice -- although I won't be


       4        voting today, I'll be voting in two or three


       5        weeks on this, but I wanted to voice my -- where


       6        I'm at on this after we hear some more testimony


       7        and evidence, but I would just -- you know, you


       8        vote this up or down on the merits.


       9             You know, I know often we'll look at what


      10        the district councilperson thinks on this.  And


      11        I'll tell you, I might lean one way or the


      12        other, and I'll -- I will vocalize that, but,


      13        you know, I just encourage you-all -- it's a


      14        tough one.  I can tell by the tone you're taking


      15        that you all understand that, and just have


      16        thoughtful, careful consideration and vote this


      17        up or down on the merits.


      18             And I think I'd like to see the Planning


      19        Department give their -- is that what we're


      20        going to do, go over -- and if someone from the


      21        Planning Department could summarize the Planning


      22        Commission's discussions and the outcome, and


      23        then if someone could summarize the report.


      24             I look forward to our conversation.


      25             Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Crofts, do you want to


       2        start with the amendment or do you want to start


       3        with Mr. Shad's request?


       4             MR. CROFTS:  Let me read into the record


       5        the amendment, and then I'll try to amplify -- I


       6        think the amendment will help to kind of lead


       7        into the Planning Commission discussion and


       8        where it ended up, where they --


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Let us get in the


      10        proper order.


      11             MR. WEBB:  Move the amendment.


      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment's been moved


      14        and seconded.


      15             Okay.  Go, sir.


      16             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, members of the


      17        committee, there were five conditions added to


      18        the PUD and they're as follows:


      19             Condition number 1, "The development shall


      20        be subject to the original legal description


      21        dated July 21st, 2008."


      22             Number 2, "The development shall be subject


      23        to the original written description dated July


      24        16th, 2008."


      25             Number 3, "The development shall be subject





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to the original site plan dated July 15th,


       2        2008."


       3             Number 4, "Tree removal and landscaping


       4        shall be subject to Part 12 of the zoning code


       5        and the review and approval of the Planning and


       6        Development Department."


       7             And number 5, "The development shall be


       8        subject to the revised parking plan dated


       9        September 9th, 2008, which shall supersede any


      10        conflicting parking requirements in the written


      11        description."


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Hold on there,


      13        sir.


      14             Mr. Hainline, are you in agreement with


      15        those five amendments?


      16             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes, sir.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead.


      18             MR. CROFTS:  The Planning Department's role


      19        in the Planning Commission meeting constituted


      20        several things.


      21             First, the whole issue of this is a boat


      22        siting facility, whether it was a marina or not,


      23        and it basically boils down to the nature of the


      24        scale.  And as indicated in our report, we have


      25        indicated that this particular yacht club is, in





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        essence, not a legally grandfathered use but


       2        actually a legal conforming use, consistent with


       3        the comprehensive plan, specifically as a


       4        secondary and supporting use.  So there is no


       5        doubt, in my our mind -- first of all, we feel


       6        that it is consistent with the comprehensive


       7        plan as it is as an accessory use to a


       8        residential development.


       9             Also, as it relates to the manatee issue,


      10        we felt like -- again, I pointed out at the


      11        Planning Commission meeting that the Manatee


      12        Protection Plan is part of the comprehensive


      13        plan, adopted as part of the background and


      14        information -- secondary information to the


      15        comprehensive plan, and we feel that -- at this


      16        point, that we have done everything consistent


      17        with the Manatee Protection Plan and the


      18        comprehensive plan in reviewing this particular


      19        facility.  There are certainly other agencies at


      20        the state, regional, and federal level that will


      21        actually go into, ultimately, the approval of


      22        this particular facility.


      23             Also, the third thing, I think, that was


      24        important to us from the Department's standpoint


      25        relates to parking.  And based on the testimony





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that was provided by the dock master at the


       2        facility in consideration of the -- and also in


       3        consideration of the landscaping, the trees, the


       4        natural habitat of the area, based on those


       5        factors, the commission, over opposition by the


       6        staff, went with the reduced parking


       7        requirement, which I think was -- we had


       8        suggested or recommended 25 additional parking


       9        spaces, consistent with the original PUD, and


      10        the Planning Commission went -- overruled us and


      11        basically said that eight parking spaces would


      12        be sufficient to accommodate the facility.


      13             And this was done in light of the fact that


      14        parking was brought up to be more of an issue


      15        around significant events, weddings, parties,


      16        and special -- other social occasions more so


      17        than a constant type parking issue.  It was more


      18        around special events at the facility that


      19        occurred maybe once a month or a little bit more


      20        frequent or less frequent than that.


      21             So that sort of summarizes, you know, I


      22        think, what we, as a department, felt were


      23        important issues.  And we felt that -- of course


      24        we recommended approval, again, with the


      25        conditions.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And that concludes my part of the report.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Crofts, is the Planning


       3        Department in agreement with the reduction of


       4        the parking from the initial report or is that


       5        in conflict?


       6             MR. CROFTS:  The Department still maintains


       7        its position of 25 parking spaces at the


       8        facility.  We did at the Planning Commission


       9        meeting, and that's still our position.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      11             Mr. Shad, did that answer your question?


      12             MR. SHAD:  Yes.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Webb, you were first.


      14             MR. WEBB:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      15             Actually, my questions had to do more with


      16        the bill, so -- we're on the amendment.  I don't


      17        know if we're in proper posture for --


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  We're on the amendment, yes.


      19             MR. WEBB:  All right.  Fair enough.  I'll


      20        come back.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any other questions on the


      22        amendment?


      23             DR. GAFFNEY:  Yes.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Are you on the amendment or


      25        the bill?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Inaudible.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  If nothing else on the


       3        amendment, all in -- Mr. Shad.


       4             MR. SHAD:  Thank you.


       5             I think the amendment is so tight in to the


       6        bill, I'd -- it's hard to -- I would prefer,


       7        committee, just have our discussions because


       8        it's hard to imagine the amendment outside of


       9        the bill, so it would be my preference to --


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I think we can move


      11        the amendments, and you can always add more


      12        amendments to it.  But since the applicant is in


      13        favor of the set five, we can start with that


      14        and then either add or subtract or do whatever.


      15             MR. SHAD:  Well, if we are on the


      16        amendment, then I would, I guess, speak to that


      17        and say that I -- you know, is there anything


      18        between eight and twenty-five?


      19             And I don't know who I'm going to call up,


      20        I'll check here, but that's a pretty dramatic


      21        drop.  I don't know, so -- Mr. Hainline, who


      22        best would be able to speak to the -- how, in


      23        saving the trees -- I can see losing a few


      24        parking spaces to save the trees, but how did


      25        we -- how did it take 17 spaces in order to save





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the trees?


       2             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Shad, I'll respond in


       3        this way, and then if either Mr. Nichols or


       4        Mr. Hallock, our civil engineer, have anything


       5        to add, they certainly can step forward.


       6             We actually went through several -- a


       7        couple of iterations, the efforts to save the


       8        trees.  This was in discussions with some


       9        residents to the south, including Mr. Gelman,


      10        but including others who I'm aware had e-mailed


      11        you all but are not here.  And they expressed a


      12        desire to save the trees at the south end of the


      13        parking lot area, which makes sense because


      14        that's where their homes are, which we did, and


      15        we lost a few spaces from that effort.


      16             And then they referenced a desire to save


      17        one tree that's over by the tennis courts, that


      18        shades the tennis courts.  We saved that and


      19        lost a couple of spaces.


      20             But the one that really affected the


      21        parking count was a very large oak that is smack


      22        in the middle of the parking area.  I mean, I


      23        could point it out on a site plan if you want me


      24        to, but it is in the northwest area of the


      25        parking lot and it's a large tree that's there





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        now.  And those residents expressed a desire to


       2        save that tree, but because it is right in the


       3        travel lane, several changes needed to be made


       4        to the overall configuration, and that resulted


       5        in a -- in the next jump, which was a fairly


       6        significant jump down to the eight parking


       7        spaces.


       8             In our discussions with them, they kept


       9        saying to us that the marina doesn't take up


      10        spaces.  That confirmed our own data, so we


      11        offered that as an alternative to the Planning


      12        Commission, which they accepted, but I want to


      13        repeat that we will accept -- and we originally


      14        proposed and will accept today the requirement


      15        to do 25 spaces.


      16             Our proposal of an alternative was only


      17        done as an attempted accommodation to some of


      18        the residents who live on the south end there.


      19             We believe eight spaces is enough, but if


      20        this committee feels that we need 25 and that


      21        the trees are an appropriate trade-off, that was


      22        our original application, we're willing to go


      23        forward with that.


      24             MR. SHAD:  No.  I want, like, 15 and save


      25        the trees.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HAINLINE:  Say again.


       2             MR. SHAD:  I want 15 and save the trees,


       3        but that's --


       4             MR. HAINLINE:  Fifteen and save the trees?


       5             Well, actually, respectfully, if you-all


       6        specify a number of spaces and then a specific


       7        grouping of trees, we can -- we can probably


       8        tell you pretty quickly tonight whether that is


       9        achievable.


      10             I mean, as an example, if you say we want


      11        to save those trees at the south end of the lot,


      12        I think we can --


      13             MR. SHAD:  Okay.  Maybe that's something --


      14        should this committee desire to go forward,


      15        maybe that's something I could work on with


      16        interested parties between now and council, so


      17        I --


      18             MR. HAINLINE:  We'd be happy to work with


      19        you on that between now and council, yes, sir.


      20             MR. SHAD:  To me, it seems like there --


      21        Shannon, go ahead.


      22             MS. ELLER:  I apologize for interrupting.


      23             We do not have a public hearing scheduled


      24        for Tuesday night at City Council, so our


      25        recommendation is that floor amendments are not





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        appropriate because there wouldn't be an


       2        opportunity for a public hearing for discussion.


       3             So if there is a way to craft a condition


       4        whereby the parking plan with specific


       5        requirements could be submitted to the Planning


       6        Department for review and approval as part of


       7        this discussion tonight, if that's possible,


       8        that would be a good suggestion.  Otherwise,


       9        we're going to run a quasi-judicial procedural


      10        risk on Tuesday.


      11             MR. SHAD:  Would we be able to add that and


      12        then -- would it just be the Planning


      13        Department?  Could it be the district


      14        councilperson to sign off on that or not?


      15             MS. ELLER:  We could put that condition on


      16        there.  That does raise some of our issues with


      17        regard to a single council member having a veto


      18        power.  And we've been challenged on that most


      19        recently in a litigation case that has not yet


      20        to be resolved, so I'd caution against it just


      21        because it could be challenged.


      22             MR. HAINLINE:  But --


      23             MR. SHAD:  Could I suggest that we add a


      24        condition to give the planning director,


      25        Mr. Thoburn, the ability to amend this





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        application somewhere between eight and


       2        twenty-five spaces at his discretion if he


       3        thinks it will serve the purpose of both saving


       4        trees and providing adequate parking if the


       5        committee would entertain that?


       6             MS. ELLER:  (Inaudible.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Shad.


       8             Mr. Webb, you're next up unless somebody


       9        wants to move --


      10             MR. WEBB:  I'll move that amendment.


      11             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  That amendment's been moved


      13        and seconded, so we are on the Shad amendment --


      14        we are on the Shad -- I'm sorry, the Webb


      15        amendment.


      16             Any discussion on the Webb amendment?


      17             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Applicant, are you fine with


      19        that amendment?


      20             MR. HAINLINE:  We will accept that


      21        amendment, yes, sir.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      23             MR. HAINLINE:  If I understand it, it's


      24        that Mr. Thoburn would determine the appropriate


      25        number of spaces in light of the demonstrated





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        need and the presence of specimen trees?


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.


       3             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes.  We would accept that.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's the amendment as I


       5        understand it.


       6             Any further discussion on the Shad


       7        amendment?


       8             MR. WEBB:  (Indicating.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Webb.


      10             MR. WEBB:  I just have a question, if I


      11        may --


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


      13             MR. WEBB:  -- for Ms. Durden.


      14             Ms. Durden, is there anything you want to


      15        add -- you want to opine as to the Webb


      16        amendment?


      17             MS. DURDEN:  Thank you very much.


      18             Through the Chair, there is.  I have a


      19        question about -- specifically about the


      20        September 9th site plan because that's been


      21        referred to and that is on this amendment.


      22             When we counted the spaces, we found that


      23        there were 134 existing spaces, plus six


      24        handicapped spaces.  That would mean that


      25        there's 140 out there today.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             This document appears to say that they're


       2        adding eight, and that would be for a total of


       3        142 spaces.  I would just ask the committee to


       4        please clarify what the current number is today


       5        and -- so that if we're adding eight, we know


       6        where we're starting from, because our count is


       7        very different than what shows on here.


       8             Thank you.  I appreciate that.


       9             And I would only ask that in regard to the


      10        actual -- I don't know what you're calling this,


      11        the Shad amendment, between eight and


      12        twenty-five.  Would there -- would you please


      13        consider some way of adding to that so that the


      14        residents could have notice of what that is


      15        before a final decision was made by Mr. Thoburn.


      16             Thank you.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      18             Mr. Webb.


      19             MR. WEBB:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      20             I'd like to modify my amendment to provide


      21        for that clarification as to what the exact


      22        number of spots and -- so as to -- and I'd move


      23        that.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I think the amendment


      25        was an additional eight to twenty-five.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. WEBB:  Eight to twenty-five, with the


       2        clarification as to what the actual number of


       3        spots is.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


       5             MR. WEBB:  Is that -- that's fine.  Go


       6        ahead.


       7             MR. SHAD:  Mr. Hainline, is there any


       8        dispute on the current number of spaces?  Would


       9        you -- do you happen to agree with the 134 plus


      10        the six handicapped?


      11             It would be easy if you agreed to that.  If


      12        you don't agree to that, let's find out now.


      13             MR. HAINLINE:  That's close.  I think we


      14        can agree that that's a good --


      15             MR. SHAD:  It could be at a minimum


      16        142 plus six handicapped.


      17             MR. HAINLINE:  That the ultimate --


      18             MR. SHAD:  At a minimum, the planning


      19        director is going to add eight.


      20             MR. HAINLINE:  And it would be -- what are


      21        your numbers again?


      22             MR. SHAD:  One hundred thirty-four and six,


      23        which would go to 142 and six.


      24             MR. HAINLINE:  I think -- we can agree to


      25        that, yes, sir.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. SHAD:  Okay.  Thank you.


       2             MR. WEBB:  That's my amendment.


       3             DR. GAFFNEY:  I'll second that.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any further discussion on


       5        the Webb amendment?


       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any further discussion on


       8        the five amendments before that?


       9             MR. JOOST:  (Indicating.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Joost.


      11             Actually, let's just go ahead and -- I'm


      12        sorry, go ahead.  If you're going to talk to the


      13        five amendments --


      14             MR. JOOST:  (Inaudible.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  So we're going to


      16        move the six amendments, and there's no further


      17        discussion on any of those amendments.


      18             All in favor say aye.


      19             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any opposed?


      21             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      23        approved the six amendments.


      24             Now we're on the bill.  Someone move the


      25        bill as amended.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended.


       2             MR. JOOST:  Second.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and


       4        seconded as amended.


       5             Discussion on the bill, Mr. Joost, followed


       6        by Mr. Webb.


       7             MR. JOOST:  Ms. Durden, a couple of


       8        questions for you.


       9             (Ms. Durden approaches the podium.)


      10             MR. JOOST:  This is in relationship to your


      11        expert witness.  In reading in my zoning book


      12        here in the summary, it says, "In summary, the


      13        site of the proposed new marina basin is


      14        appropriate for the proposed additional boat


      15        slips in part due to the site's depth which


      16        requires no dredging, the absence of sea grass


      17        beds, native aquatic vegetation, and other


      18        highly-productive marine habitat within the


      19        site, the absence of high manatee use or


      20        mortality at or near the site, and the fact that


      21        the owner holds the uplands adjacent to the


      22        proposed new marina basin."


      23             That seems to be in direct conflict with


      24        your expert's testimony.


      25             MS. DURDEN:  Actually, it's just taken





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        verbatim from the applicant's application.  They


       2        were just conclusory statements in the


       3        application that were transcribed right into the


       4        staff report.


       5             If you take a look at tab number -- in the


       6        booklet that is labeled Opposition to the


       7        Expansion of the Marina, at tab number -- at tab


       8        number 4, you will see that straight out of the


       9        2006 Manatee Protection Plan it shows that


      10        Christopher Point has one of the very highest


      11        manatee sightings in the entire -- if you look


      12        at that list -- in the entire lower St. Johns.


      13             We're not talking about just Jacksonville.


      14        We're now talking about Clay County and on


      15        further down -- well, up -- technically up the


      16        river towards Orlando.


      17             So to suggest that this is not a site of


      18        high manatees is in contradiction with the


      19        City's own Manatee Protection Plan.


      20             I don't -- maybe that helps, but -- as far


      21        as the manatees, but that is exactly what it


      22        says.  And we're not -- we're not making these


      23        figures up.  It's been adopted and reviewed by


      24        this City as well as the State.


      25             So I think that, yes -- are they going to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        do any dredging?  At this point, they don't


       2        think so.  That's what they've said, but it's --


       3        who knows what will actually happen or what will


       4        end up being required once the State finally


       5        gets to the point of reviewing the environmental


       6        resource permit.  It's --


       7             MR. JOOST:  So you basically would take


       8        issue with the Planning Department's


       9        characterization of the marine habitat in --


      10             MS. DURDEN:  Yes.


      11             MR. JOOST:  -- that area?


      12             MS. DURDEN:  Thank you.


      13             MR. JOOST:  Hold on.  I've got some more


      14        for you.


      15              "The 2000 Comprehensive Plan recognizes


      16        the need for additional boating facilities."


      17             You're in Zone 15, which is designated for


      18        new boat facilities --


      19             MS. DURDEN:  That's correct.


      20             MR. JOOST:  -- is that correct?


      21             MS. DURDEN:  Zone 15, yes, that is correct.


      22             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  To me, this is kind of


      23        like what it boils down to:  What is the level


      24        of reasonable expectation for the homeowners?


      25             And I'm going to ask Mr. Hainline a similar





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        question.


       2             Given that the parking issue could be


       3        worked out, is it a reasonable expectation for a


       4        homeowner never to expect the marine facility to


       5        expand?


       6             MS. DURDEN:  It's my opinion that in this


       7        particular location it's not consistent with the


       8        comprehensive plan to allow that marina to


       9        expand, and so the neighbors and the


      10        landowners --


      11             MR. JOOST:  I'm just talking about the


      12        private property owner that bought a condo


      13        there.


      14             MS. DURDEN:  That's right.


      15             MR. JOOST:  And is it a -- and who you're


      16        representing.


      17             Is it a reasonable expectation never to


      18        expect the marina business -- whatever you want


      19        to call it -- to expand?


      20             MS. DURDEN:  It is very reasonable, and the


      21        reasons that it is reasonable is because of the


      22        intensity that exists at Epping.


      23             MR. JOOST:  You mean it's unreasonable.


      24             MS. DURDEN:  Now, we will hear -- I know


      25        that Epping Yacht Club maintains a 10-foot strip





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of land along the promenade and the bulkhead.


       2             Throughout the original PUD -- and I know


       3        that Mr. Hainline raised the original PUD


       4        today.


       5             Throughout the original PUD, it talks about


       6        that promenade and the views that are going to


       7        be afforded as a result of that promenade.  That


       8        promenade was kept in -- the ten feet was kept


       9        so that the condominium owners couldn't restrict


      10        the other residents of the Epping community from


      11        going and transversing along that ten feet.


      12             The original PUD is replete.  I actually


      13        have numerous places --


      14             MR. JOOST:  You're saying the original


      15        seawall, if you will, which Epping Forest owns


      16        today, was actually retained by them at their


      17        request so it couldn't impede other condo owners


      18        from impeding each other's views or --


      19             MS. DURDEN:  It could -- that's right, or


      20        from prohibiting anybody from -- residents and


      21        club members from coming down there and enjoying


      22        the view that is now not going to exist after


      23        the marina is expanded.


      24             The whole point of the promenade had


      25        nothing to do with who was going to maintain the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        bulkhead.  The whole point of the promenade and


       2        the 10-foot strip turns out to be the riparian


       3        rights, and -- according to Mr. Hainline --


       4        should -- therefore prohibits the owners of the


       5        condominiums from having --


       6             MR. JOOST:  For people such as myself that


       7        are not well versed in legalese, what does


       8        "riparian" mean?


       9             MS. DURDEN:  "Riparian," well, that's a


      10        really complicated -- but just put simply, a


      11        riparian right is the right of the owner who


      12        owns the piece of land that butts up against the


      13        water.  Okay?  And if you don't -- if you own


      14        that piece of land that butts right up against


      15        the water, then you have the riparian rights,


      16        and the riparian rights reach out into the


      17        water.


      18             That's very simple, and -- but, you know,


      19        we've heard that because we -- because the yacht


      20        club owns the 10-foot strip --


      21             MR. JOOST:  They're claiming the riparian


      22        rights.


      23             MS. DURDEN:  They have all the riparian


      24        rights and the rest of the condominium owners


      25        have nothing.  But my point is that in the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        original PUD, the purpose of that strip was not


       2        about being able to expand the marina there.


       3             And so I go back to what your original


       4        statement was, about the expectation.  Yes, it


       5        is a reasonable expectation for them not to


       6        expect a double-the-size marina to exist in


       7        front of their homes.


       8             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.


       9             Mr. Hainline.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Hold on.


      11             Ms. Durden, I've just got a quick


      12        question.


      13             MS. DURDEN:  Yes.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  If that ten foot was held so


      15        nobody else -- so the people that live right


      16        there on the waterfront couldn't stop anybody


      17        from going by, why wasn't it that it was owned


      18        by the homeowners association as opposed to


      19        being owned by the yacht club?


      20             MS. DURDEN:  The point is that they also --


      21        because the bulkhead goes all the way along from


      22        in front of the marina, the existing marina,


      23        that it goes -- they felt that it was the


      24        right -- the right decision, that they should


      25        also -- if they're going to deal with that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        bulkhead, they should deal with this other


       2        bulkhead.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  So you do agree --


       4             MS. DURDEN:  The choice wasn't -- the point


       5        is that it wasn't about who's going to have the


       6        riparian rights, who's going to be able to


       7        expand the marina.  The point was to keep it in


       8        the, quote, public arena so that people would


       9        have the right.


      10             Well, they've basically -- people would


      11        have the right to stroll.  That's why it's


      12        called the promenade.


      13             Throughout the PUD, the original PUD, it


      14        talks about the views, it talks about the


      15        promenade, it talks about -- even about how the


      16        condominiums themselves, the design of the


      17        condominiums, the shape is so that the views


      18        will be significantly increased, this kind of


      19        modified U shape.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  But, Ms. Durden, my point is


      21        that there is a cost associated with owning that


      22        10-foot piece because you are responsible for


      23        the bulkhead.


      24             MS. DURDEN:  That's possible, but again,


      25        bringing back to what you heard --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is that possible or


       2        definite?


       3             MS. DURDEN:  No, it's not definite.


       4             We've never been approached -- we've never


       5        once been approached to aid in the maintenance


       6        of that bulkhead.  We were never approached to


       7        say, look, either we're going to have to expand


       8        the marina or you need to help us pay for the


       9        bulkhead to be refurbished.  That's never


      10        been -- we would definitely go for the


      11        bulkhead.  There's no doubt.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      13             Go ahead.


      14             MR. JOOST:  Good questions.


      15             Mr. Hainline, a couple of questions for


      16        you.


      17             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)


      18             MR. JOOST:  Let's say I was a -- I'm an


      19        original homeowner and I did my homework and I


      20        looked at the original PUD, and in that PUD it


      21        said not to exceed 71 boat slips.  Why would it


      22        not be a reasonable expectation of mine to keep


      23        the marina at 71 boat slips as originally


      24        intended when I bought my condo?


      25             MR. HAINLINE:  For the simple reason,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Mr. Joost, that zonings can be changed.  And


       2        that is not only a legal point, but it should be


       3        clear to anyone who might investigate that a PUD


       4        can be amended.  And indeed here, as I


       5        mentioned, the PUD has been amended six times,


       6        and indeed it was amended once to enlarge the


       7        footprint for the condominiums.  So the


       8        condominium owners have been a beneficiary of at


       9        least one of those amendments.


      10             So anyone investigating, particularly more


      11        recently -- I mean, the history of the


      12        amendments -- let me list the dates of the


      13        amendments because this would be relevant as


      14        well.


      15             There was an amendment right off the bat in


      16        '85.  There was an amendment in '86.  There was


      17        an amendment in '88.  There was an amendment in


      18        '89 and in '99.  So anyone who bought in '86 or


      19        '87, '88, '89, there had already been amendments


      20        to the PUD as of those early dates.


      21             So when you buy in a PUD, as a legal point,


      22        as in -- and as in a point -- if anyone calls


      23        down to the Planning Department and says, can a


      24        PUD be changed, the answer would be yes, someone


      25        can apply for a PUD amendment and it can be





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        changed, as you-all know because you amend


       2        plenty of PUDs.  It happens all the time.


       3             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  The --


       4             MR. HAINLINE:  I won't get into the --


       5        okay.


       6             MR. JOOST:  Going along that same line of


       7        reasoning, when the additional facilities were


       8        built with the new PUDs, what was the impact to


       9        parking?


      10             MR. HAINLINE:  The parking, generally, was


      11        not changed.


      12             Now, I say that generally.  And, in fact, I


      13        spent Monday morning looking through the


      14        Planning Department files on that very issue.


      15             Remember, we're going back to 1985, which


      16        is, by my math, 23 years ago.  And the Planning


      17        Department has done a great job for as long as


      18        I've been practicing, but the record keeping has


      19        been improved over the years.  I'll state it in


      20        a positive way.  And the file contains not only


      21        references and documents relating to these


      22        amendments, but, for example, there's one whole


      23        file that just has blueprint plans in it that


      24        are modifications to the PUD, which, at that


      25        time, were done by the Planning Commission.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             The code has changed over the years.  It


       2        used to be that the Planning Commission could


       3        make certain changes, which they still can do,


       4        but the criteria for that have changed.


       5             What I'm saying to you is there's a whole


       6        file of blueprint plans of the layout of the


       7        parking and the yacht club area, and written in


       8        red pencil on those plans it says, "PC


       9        approved," blank.  So that might be a


      10        modification to this or a modification to that


      11        that was approved by the Planning Commission.


      12             I submit that it is virtually impossible to


      13        determine exactly what changes to the parking


      14        area may or may not have accompanied what


      15        changes to the recreation facilities because


      16        there were so many -- I guess what I can just


      17        say, out-of-council changes by the Planning


      18        Commission and presumably by staff.  None of


      19        them inappropriate, all legal at that time.


      20        It's just the -- again, the file is a challenge,


      21        I guess is what I should say.


      22             MR. JOOST:  Does the Planning Department


      23        have any clarification on what the impact of the


      24        prior PUDs were to the parking facilities?  Did


      25        they add parking spots, did they reduce parking





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        spots, or was there no impact?  And do you have


       2        any idea as to what the magnitude of the change


       3        was?


       4             MR. KELLY:  Through the Chair to


       5        Councilmember Joost, the -- not familiar with


       6        the parking requirements.


       7             Obviously, the parking requirements haven't


       8        changed, so to speak.  The parking requirements


       9        for the club, parking requirements for the


      10        marina, from what was proposed as the original


      11        plan and what was built I'm assuming went


      12        through the PUD verification process, the site


      13        plan was approved at council, and that was then


      14        reviewed in the civil plan review, and


      15        concurrence at that time was that it met the


      16        requirements -- the parking requirements under


      17        the PUD, but the additional uses as -- I don't


      18        know the timing and when -- the whole history --


      19        would probably need a time line of what has


      20        occurred on the property since the original


      21        adoption, but I don't have that information.


      22             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Because -- well, I guess


      23        it would concern me if they're adding facilities


      24        prior and taking parking away and then adding


      25        more -- you know, what -- how do you address the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        adequacy of the parking with all these


       2        additions?


       3             The homeowners association -- it's been


       4        alleged that the homeowners association was not


       5        notified and there was -- I mean, it would help


       6        me as a councilperson trying to make up my mind


       7        if I knew what the stance of the homeowners


       8        association was, of Epping Forest, or if there


       9        are multiple homeowners associations.


      10             How do you react to the allegation, I


      11        guess, that the homeowners association was not


      12        notified and there were no votes taken?


      13             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Joost, I would answer


      14        that this way:  First of all, club management


      15        started meeting with the condominium owners


      16        about the proposed expansion of the marina a


      17        year -- about a year ago, in late 2007.  So


      18        certainly they were aware of the change as much


      19        as a year ago.


      20             When the application was being put


      21        together, I contacted Ms. Durden because I knew


      22        she was the lawyer for the condominium owners.


      23        I said, We're getting ready to file; be happy to


      24        meet, et cetera.  I sent her a copy of the


      25        application.  That was late July.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And as of that date, the club -- Epping


       2        Forest Yacht Club placed on its website a


       3        special page that had a copy of the application,


       4        a question-and-answer document, a more detailed


       5        PowerPoint presentation on it, as well as the


       6        environmental permit applications for the plan.


       7        So that was all put on the Epping Forest


       8        website.


       9             Then a letter was sent to all residents and


      10        club members saying, We're going to -- we're


      11        proposing to expand the marina.  If you want to


      12        know more about it, go to your Epping Forest


      13        website, all the information is there.


      14             We then -- as I mentioned previously, we


      15        had additional conversations in early September


      16        with additional residents to the south.  That


      17        was Mr. Gelman, and that's when we talked about


      18        the trees and the alternative plan.


      19             Regarding the associations, you heard from


      20        the president of the master association.  That


      21        was Mr. Franzblau.  The president of the master


      22        association stood up here and spoke in support


      23        of this PUD amendment.


      24             There are numerous associations, individual


      25        associations.  In fact, each condominium has its





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        own association, each condominium group.  So


       2        there are numerous associations in there.


       3             I think my response to you, Mr. Joost,


       4        would be that by sending the letter to every


       5        resident and every member, making all the


       6        information available on the website, meeting


       7        with the condo owners almost a year ago, and


       8        taking on all comers as we got calls while the


       9        thing was pending, including the residents to


      10        the south, I would disagree with that comment


      11        and say that we went above and beyond what the


      12        code requires to make sure that everyone knows


      13        about it.


      14             And, by the way, we did post the signs.


      15        And when Ms. Durden raised the signage question,


      16        we went and posted new signs.  So, I mean, we --


      17        we did everything.


      18             MR. JOOST:  So you wouldn't agree with that


      19        assertion?


      20             MR. HAINLINE:  No, sir.


      21             MR. JOOST:  One last question to the


      22        Planning Department concerning the Manatee


      23        Protection Plan.


      24             If we're under a moratorium right now to


      25        not build -- it says, "No new marinas or docks





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        may be permitted until the State of Florida


       2        lifts the moratorium due to recent manatee


       3        deaths."


       4             How is it -- are we allowed to approve


       5        zoning for an additional marina when the State


       6        of Florida has a moratorium on this type of


       7        construction?


       8             MR. CROFTS:  I think there are two levels


       9        here in terms of review.  One is in terms of


      10        consistency with the plan itself and the


      11        parameters within that plan, and it talks about


      12        where those particular facilities may be located


      13        in concert to the Manatee Protection Plan, but


      14        in addition to that -- so we've looked at it in


      15        terms of the comprehensive plan, but in addition


      16        to that, based on other information, other


      17        things that have evolved as it relates to


      18        conditions along the river and relating to


      19        manatees, that there is additional situations.


      20             So I think we're all aware of that, we know


      21        that, but we looked at it from the standpoint --


      22        I guess the City of Jacksonville, in terms of


      23        consistency with the comprehensive plan, which


      24        is one level of review, and then there's another


      25        level of issues that are also brought forth by





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        further and higher review agencies, such as the


       2        State.


       3             MR. HAINLINE:  May I respond specifically


       4        to that?


       5             MR. JOOST:  Yes, sir, please.


       6             MR. HAINLINE:  It was stated at the


       7        Planning Commission by Dylan Reingold of the


       8        General Counsel's Office that there is no


       9        moratorium on manatee permits.


      10             The Planning Department's report refers to


      11        that, but if you call the DEP today, which we


      12        did, the Department of Environmental Protection,


      13        processing those permits, what they say is that


      14        they consider permits on a case-by-case basis.


      15             And I would also add --


      16             MR. JOOST:  Well, it says here -- it


      17        says, "Under the" -- and I'm just quoting from


      18        my Land Use and Zoning book right here prepared


      19        by the Planning Department.


      20             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes, sir.


      21             MR. JOOST:  It says, "Under the Manatee


      22        Protection Plan, no new marinas or docks may be


      23        permitted until the State of Florida lifts the


      24        moratorium due to the number of manatee deaths


      25        occurring within Duval County waterways."





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Joost, we were curious


       2        about that sentence in the Planning Department's


       3        recommendation as well, so we called the Florida


       4        Department of Environmental Protection, and I


       5        have the name of the person that we spoke to.


       6        There is no current moratorium.  They are


       7        reviewing applications on a case-by-case basis.


       8             We learned of that information, and I


       9        specifically recall Mr. Reingold confirming that


      10        fact to the Planning Commission in response to a


      11        similar question.


      12             The other thing I would point out,


      13        consistent with what Mr. Crofts said, we have


      14        applications pending before the State DEP,


      15        U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, with all the


      16        agencies inputting.  We submitted those to the


      17        Planning Department.


      18             They asked for the -- environmental


      19        agencies asked for additional information.  We


      20        submitted that as well.


      21             All of this information was submitted to


      22        the Planning Department regarding manatee


      23        impacts and compliance with the Manatee


      24        Protection Plan.  That's when your Planning


      25        Department, reviewing this, concluded that we





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        meet the criteria under your boat facilities


       2        siting plan and under the Manatee Protection


       3        Plan.


       4             We are working our permits through the


       5        State's permitting agencies, DEP, Corps of


       6        Engineers, et cetera.  They'll make whatever


       7        determinations they're going to make about that,


       8        and -- and so, consistent with what Mr. Crofts


       9        said about other reviewing authorities,


      10        moratorium or not, we certainly have those


      11        applications pending and we'll get


      12        determinations from them.


      13             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  And then -- I appreciate


      14        you giving me the time, Mr. Chairman.


      15             Going down, again, the road of reasonable


      16        expectations and over time PUDs change, as a


      17        resident, what level of assurance do I have


      18        that, say, in -- a couple of years later from


      19        now you won't amend the PUD to allow for the


      20        sale of fuel at the marina?


      21             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Joost, I -- first of


      22        all, there certainly is no plan to do that, no


      23        one has ever said anything to me about that, and


      24        I know that there's no plan to do that.


      25             And there are -- we talked about what is a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        yacht club and what is a commercial marina, and


       2        what you heard me say up here is that the


       3        distinction between a yacht club and a


       4        commercial marina -- and, by the way, there are


       5        definitions in the zoning code for these things,


       6        but the difference between a yacht club and a


       7        commercial marina --


       8             You heard me say earlier, commercial


       9        marinas in the CGC comp plan category have


      10        fueling, haul-out, repair.  I would suggest to


      11        you and I would agree that fueling, haul-out,


      12        repair, those are the kinds of characteristics


      13        of use that take it into a commercial marina as


      14        opposed to just the number of slips.


      15             There's nothing in either -- there's


      16        nothing that says the number of slips takes it


      17        into the category of a commercial marina.


      18             So what is the reasonable expectation?  I


      19        mean, we would suggest to you that any change to


      20        fueling, haul-out, those kinds of things that


      21        are characteristic of a commercial marina may


      22        require a comprehensive plan amendment, which is


      23        a whole 'nother ballgame from an amendment to a


      24        PUD.


      25             MR. JOOST:  All right.  I appreciate your





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        time in answering my questions.


       2             MR. HAINLINE:  Thank you.


       3             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  We are two hours into this,


       5        and we normally take a break for our court


       6        reporter.  I guess the question is, Diane, how


       7        are you doing?


       8             (Discussion held off the record.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Mr. Webb.


      10             MR. WEBB:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      11             We had some discussion -- some questions


      12        about riparian rights.  And, again, I think that


      13        this -- this application, I think, is what it


      14        all comes down to, in my view, and I have some


      15        questions for the General Counsel's Office.


      16             There was a reference made -- it was one of


      17        the individuals who spoke as an expert on behalf


      18        of the opposition to this -- on the requirement


      19        for a yacht club, that it have -- it needs two


      20        acres of upland; is that correct?


      21             MS. ELLER:  I don't know.  I'll have to


      22        defer to --


      23             MR. WEBB:  We need to find that out.


      24             MS. ELLER:  -- the Planning Department on


      25        those performance standards.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Because here is where I'm


       2        going on this -- and first -- I'm sorry, Dylan,


       3        do you want to -- I mean, Sean, do you want to


       4        speak to that?


       5             MR. KELLY:  Certainly.


       6             The yacht club requirement, under the


       7        Part 4 supplemental regulations, is a


       8        two-and-a-half-acre requirement.  However, I


       9        think there's the tennis courts here too, so


      10        that's the addition, which a tennis club is


      11        really required to be five acres.  So they meet


      12        the stricter of the two standards.  They're


      13        12 acres, so they're more than the yacht club


      14        and the --


      15             MR. WEBB:  They need two -- okay.


      16             Well, first of all, let me go back to


      17        that.  My question is, the -- in the original --


      18        this is to the General Counsel's Office or to


      19        Planning or to Mr. Hainline -- and I think,


      20        Mr. Hainline, you and I had some previous


      21        discussions about this, but -- in one of our


      22        ex-parte communications, but the original PUD


      23        and the -- and then subsequently modified, did


      24        it include the condo area?


      25             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes, sir.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  So is this a -- is --


       2        what are we doing here?  Are we creating a PUD


       3        within a PUD?


       4             MS. ELLER:  Yes.


       5             The particular application is only for the


       6        property that is owned by the club owners.


       7             MR. WEBB:  Well, who are the applicants --


       8        who are subject to the original PUD?


       9             MS. ELLER:  Everybody is subject to the


      10        original PUD, and the -- this applicant has the


      11        right to apply for modifications on their


      12        property.


      13             If for some reason the modification on


      14        their particular property somehow triggered some


      15        inconsistency or necessary change for the


      16        overall PUD --


      17             MR. WEBB:  Right.


      18             MS. ELLER:  -- at that point, everybody in


      19        that PUD would have to approve those changes.


      20             But, at this point, what they're -- what


      21        they've applied for is solely within the bounds


      22        of their property and what they've applied for


      23        doesn't violate any of the conditions of the


      24        original PUD.


      25             MR. WEBB:  Well, I have a question about





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that, then.  Again -- I mean, this is painful


       2        for me to ask this question because I'd like to


       3        build wet slips all over the city of


       4        Jacksonville.  I'm a boater myself and I'm very


       5        supportive of this -- of the concept of this in


       6        principle; however, there is a legal issue here,


       7        in my view.


       8             You need the two or whatever -- the upland


       9        requirements in order to put the yacht club in


      10        there.  Okay?


      11             Now, you're not -- however, you're not


      12        accessing this facility through those -- through


      13        the land to which the riparian right attaches;


      14        isn't that correct?


      15             MS. ELLER:  I'll defer to Mr. Hainline.


      16             I believe that you are, because of the


      17        connection --


      18             MR. WEBB:  T.R., if you could speak to


      19        that.


      20             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes, sir.


      21             Two responses:  Number one, in the previous


      22        PUD amendments -- for example, for additional


      23        club facilities -- the portion owned by the club


      24        was the applicant.  The club was the applicant,


      25        and where those -- and when those previous PUD





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        amendments were approved, they were approved for


       2        that piece of property, not the entire PUD.


       3             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Understood.


       4             MR. HAINLINE:  So the precedent is


       5        established there, but --


       6             MR. WEBB:  Let me ask you -- let me ask you


       7        a question along -- to that point --


       8             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes, sir.


       9             MR. WEBB:  -- through -- Mr. Chair --


      10        through the Chair.


      11             The modifications to the PUD that were in


      12        the prior applications did not include expansion


      13        of the slips; is that correct?


      14             MR. HAINLINE:  That is correct.


      15             MR. WEBB:  And these would -- and I would


      16        assume that the application for the modification


      17        to the -- the prior applications to


      18        modifications to the PUD only involved


      19        incidental uses or modifications that would


      20        be -- that would affect the club itself would


      21        have no impact on -- on those outside of the


      22        applicant area?


      23             MR. HAINLINE:  Well, I'm not the determiner


      24        of that.  You are the determiner of that


      25        because, by the same argument, if you add to the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        club facilities, thereby increasing traffic,


       2        thereby increasing parking needs, you're


       3        affecting everyone.  People are coming in


       4        through the entrance to go to the club.  You're


       5        affecting everyone.


       6             By expanding the condominium footprint,


       7        theoretically you're affecting the adjoining


       8        single-family owner.  That's why people get


       9        notice for these things, so --


      10             MR. WEBB:  I understand.


      11             I mean, to that point, though, this is a


      12        special case because, again, not only does this


      13        involve notice and other issues, this also


      14        involves this concept of riparian rights.  I


      15        mean, (inaudible) riparian rights, that is,


      16        these are -- are those which merely increase


      17        one's comfort or prosperity and do not rank as


      18        essential to its existence such as commercial


      19        profit and recreation.


      20             So -- and those -- my point is that, again,


      21        you -- you are not exercising your riparian


      22        rights with respect to the bulkhead because


      23        you're accessing your riparian rights -- you're


      24        just -- you're not exercising riparian rights


      25        with respect to this extension or this expansion





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        because you're accessing it off of the existing


       2        marine -- or yacht club, pardon me.


       3             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Webb, I would point out


       4        two things.  Number one, I would respectfully


       5        disagree because we are -- the promenade runs


       6        all along.  It starts in the front of the club


       7        and it runs all along there.  We are accessing


       8        from the promenade, from the property we own,


       9        from the property that was -- that is within our


      10        PUD ownership.  We are accessing it.


      11             The reason we chose not to access it from


      12        the promenade over in front of the condominiums


      13        is because it would have dramatically increased


      14        the impacts on them, and they asked us not to do


      15        that.


      16             I would ask you not to punish us for that


      17        concession to this them, that effort not to


      18        impact by somehow saying that because we haven't


      19        accessed it over along those riparian rights


      20        that we're not using those riparian rights.


      21             We believe we are using the riparian rights


      22        and, in fact, the State, to give us a permit for


      23        that submerged lease, requires that we own the


      24        upland riparian rights.  It requires that we own


      25        that.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             So to the extent that we are applying for


       2        the submerged land lease, we are indeed


       3        factually using the riparian rights to do that.


       4        And if we had chosen to move our access over


       5        right in front of the condominiums, we would


       6        have used the riparian rights over there.  Right


       7        now we're using the riparian rights where our


       8        current access is.


       9             MR. WEBB:  So -- through the Chair,


      10        Mr. Hainline, so your position is that you do


      11        have sufficient upland to qualif- -- if this


      12        were a freestanding yacht club and you came in


      13        tomorrow and wanted to put up -- your position


      14        is that the State of Florida -- you're


      15        representation is that the State of Florida is


      16        taking the position that you do have the upland


      17        necessary to go forward with this project?


      18             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes, sir.


      19             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Thank you.  All right.


      20             Okay.  Thank you very much.


      21             MR. HAINLINE:  And if we didn't --


      22             MR. WEBB:  This is a tough one, I will say


      23        that.


      24             MR. HAINLINE:  And if we didn't have -- if


      25        we did not have that promenade ownership, if we





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        didn't have the ownership along there, we


       2        couldn't do -- we couldn't do this, we could not


       3        apply for the submerged land lease.  It is


       4        essential that we have that and are using it to


       5        do this submerged land lease.  That's one reason


       6        why we didn't do it to the south.


       7             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Thank you very much for


       8        that.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have Mr. Joost.


      10             MR. JOOST:  I guess one -- well,


      11        Mr. Hainline, I'll go with you since you seem to


      12        be on the hot seat here.


      13             Who actually owns the uplands?


      14             MR. HAINLINE:  Epping Forest Yacht Club,


      15        Inc., owns, as has been said by both sides, an


      16        area of 8 to 10 feet that runs along and under


      17        the promenade, which includes the bulkhead,


      18        which is what we're paying to fix.


      19             MR. JOOST:  So the condominium owners don't


      20        own any of the uplands?


      21             MR. HAINLINE:  They do not own the uplands


      22        adjacent to the water, that is correct.


      23             Of course, they own the uplands back where


      24        their units are.  Well, actually, condominium


      25        ownership is a little more complicated than





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that, but they nor their association own down to


       2        the water's edge.


       3             Epping Forest Yacht Club owns along the


       4        water's edge for a distance of -- somewhere


       5        between 5 and 10 feet.  That's been the


       6        testimony of both sides.


       7             MR. JOOST:  Why don't you, just for me,


       8        define "upland," then.


       9             MR. HAINLINE:  Well, I'm not sure what


      10        context it's used in, but it certainly -- I


      11        guess I would need to know what context it's


      12        used in.


      13             I mean --


      14             MR. JOOST:  Just in my own mind when I was


      15        reading it and then I saw kind of the outline of


      16        the site plan and I saw the uplands, it looked


      17        like they were by the condos to me.


      18             MR. HAINLINE:  Well, let me -- may I get


      19        the site plan?


      20             MR. JOOST:  Yes.


      21             MR. HAINLINE:  This is the site plan I have


      22        in front of me (indicating).


      23             As you can see just from the coloring on


      24        the site plan, Epping Forest Yacht Club's


      25        ownership extends under the promenade and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        slightly to the east of the promenade, all the


       2        way down here (indicating) to the single-family


       3        land.


       4             So what do the condominiums own?  Well,


       5        again, condominium ownership is different than


       6        just saying they own it, but they certainly live


       7        and own these buildings and the land up here


       8        (indicating).


       9             But the waterfront ownership, where the


      10        water hits land that's dry, it's not under


      11        water, where the water hits that promenade --


      12        bulkhead and the promenade, that's owned by


      13        Epping Forest Yacht Club, as well as the land


      14        under the promenade, as well as a little bit


      15        going back.


      16             And I haven't said this, but I would add


      17        that although the yacht club would never do it,


      18        there's nothing in any of the PUD documents or


      19        in any of the restrictive covenants that are


      20        filed to prevent a hedge from being located on


      21        the landward side of the promenade.


      22             Now, no one would ever do that because


      23        there's no purpose to it, but I only say it to


      24        illustrate a point, that one of the benefits of


      25        that riparian ownership is the ability to have a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        view, to use the land as you want, and to access


       2        from that riparian ownership.


       3             So, anyway, that's just a point.


       4             And this -- with the site plan up here,


       5        this would allow me to point out Mr. Webb's


       6        question.  We actually are extending from our


       7        riparian ownership here (indicating), and we


       8        need the riparian ownership over here in order


       9        to get the submerged land lease here.


      10             I hope that answered your question,


      11        Mr. Joost.


      12             MR. JOOST:  Hold the map up again one more


      13        time.


      14             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes.


      15             (Complies.)


      16             MR. JOOST:  Sorry.


      17             So where the marina extends, I guess that's


      18        going northward?  That --


      19             MR. HAINLINE:  Yes.


      20             MR. JOOST:  That does not come in front of


      21        any of the condo owners?


      22             MR. HAINLINE:  No.  This is in front of --


      23        this little -- you can see it.  There's a little


      24        vague line there that is the condominium --


      25        that's the first condominium building, right





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        here (indicating).  This is the second


       2        condominium building.  And if you look at the


       3        aerials, it shows the same.


       4             This --


       5             MR. JOOST:  Because you own -- I'm just,


       6        you know, getting it straight for myself.


       7             And because you own the bulkhead there or


       8        the seawall or whatever you want to call it, you


       9        therefore own the riparian rights to the


      10        waterway?


      11             MR. HAINLINE:  That's correct.


      12             But we don't only own the bulkhead, the


      13        actual hard surface that the water hits when it


      14        comes up, we own the promenade, the surface of


      15        the walkway there that people walk on, and we


      16        own back to include some of the landscaping that


      17        is on the landward side of the promenade.


      18             And, yes, we own everything in front of the


      19        condominium buildings.  We own everything -- we


      20        own for the entire distance of the water,


      21        between the condominium buildings and the water.


      22             MR. JOOST:  And so, therefore, your


      23        contention is you're able to have a PUD within a


      24        PUD because it's only affecting your property?


      25             MR. HAINLINE:  Well, it's not only my





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        contention; that is what the code says and


       2        that's what the prior precedent has been, not


       3        only on this PUD, but I'll point out, you -- the


       4        council approves PUDs for enormous developments


       5        of regional impact, you approve PUDs for


       6        hundreds and hundreds of acres, and people come


       7        in all the time, and always have for as long as


       8        I've been doing zoning work, to amend their


       9        parcel that they own within the PUD, and it's


      10        called a PUD to PUD rezoning.  We do them all


      11        the time.  That's what this is.  That's what the


      12        prior amendments have been here at Epping.


      13             If there was some ruling that you couldn't


      14        amend the PUD as it applies to your property


      15        within a PUD without getting everybody to sign


      16        off on, it would make it a very difficult


      17        vehicle indeed to use on large multiuse


      18        projects, whether they're DRIs or not.


      19             MR. JOOST:  And one last question.


      20             Was there any -- going along with


      21        Mr. Shad's earlier question, was there any


      22        attempt at a compromise in saying, we'll get a


      23        smaller marina and have adequate parking?


      24             MR. HAINLINE:  The compromises, Mr. Joost,


      25        were the setback from the -- 90-foot setback





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        here (indicating) and a variety of other things


       2        that I can run through.  Those were the


       3        concessions to address the impacts.


       4             No, the parking that we proposed to provide


       5        is the required parking per the PUD for our


       6        marina expansion, the 25 spaces, so --


       7             We worked long and hard between when they


       8        first started talking to the condominium owners


       9        back at the end of the year, last year, and July


      10        to figure out exactly how we could size both the


      11        parking expansion and the marina expansion to be


      12        able to provide the required number of parking


      13        spaces for the slips.  That's the basis of our


      14        application.


      15             It was only after that that some owners --


      16        some residents said, please consider -- you


      17        know, the marina doesn't use any parking.  We're


      18        never going to have a crowded parking lot


      19        because of the marina.  Please consider saving


      20        some of the trees and providing less parking.


      21             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Webb.


      23             MR. WEBB:  Mr. Hainline, don't go


      24        anywhere.  Bring your sign back down -- your


      25        site plan.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HAINLINE:  (Complies.)


       2             MR. WEBB:  Thank you.


       3             I appreciate the graphic because it begs


       4        the question -- I just want to -- I'd like to --


       5        through the Chair, I'd like to get some


       6        clarification.


       7             Earlier, Sean, you said -- your position is


       8        what?  You need two-and-a-half acres of upland


       9        for the yacht club -- in order to put a yacht


      10        club in; is that correct?


      11             MR. KELLY:  Correct.


      12             MR. WEBB:  All right.  Mr. Hainline, where


      13        is the upland property sufficient to justify


      14        the --


      15             MR. HAINLINE:  Everything --


      16             MR. WEBB:  Okay.


      17             MR. HAINLINE:  Everything that is in that


      18        black line is owned by Epping Forest Yacht Club,


      19        Inc., and is the upland, which --


      20             MR. WEBB:  And therein lies -- I guess the


      21        next question is -- and to the General Counsel,


      22        maybe to the Planning Department.


      23             Is it a requirement that the upland


      24        property necessary to satisfy the requirements


      25        of the statute be contiguous to that property





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that creates the riparian right?  Does that make


       2        sense?


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  It is contiguous.


       4             MR. WEBB:  How is that -- or adjacent or --


       5        is it --


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's contiguous.


       7             MR. WEBB:  Is it parallel -- I'm sorry,


       8        parallel or be attached?


       9             MS. ELLER:  An enclave of that nature is


      10        permitted because the piece of dirt right in


      11        front of the waterway is all that's needed.  For


      12        example, there are places where people only own


      13        the bulkhead and they have rights to --


      14             MR. WEBB:  Then, arguably, you could -- if


      15        that's your theory, you could -- if you're


      16        attaching -- if you're claiming the riparian --


      17        if you're claiming that the justification or the


      18        support for the expansion of this flows from the


      19        riparian rights on that piece of dirt, then


      20        arguably you could construct a million slips all


      21        the way down the length of the St. Johns River;


      22        isn't that a fair statement?


      23             MS. ELLER:  That's a fair statement.


      24             MR. WEBB:  There's something illogical


      25        about this.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. ELLER:  There is other requirements,


       2        though, because you -- you'll notice that -- the


       3        number of slips that are permitted; you have to


       4        meet parking requirements; there is the acreage


       5        requirement, as Sean mentioned; there's also the


       6        permitting requirements through the other State


       7        agencies and the limitations in our comp plan


       8        with regard to the appropriate location for


       9        facilities, including things that serve as


      10        residential docks like this and other things


      11        that are more intense.


      12             So I think you're -- you are correct in


      13        stating that, based upon a strip, you have the


      14        right to do so.  Whether or not you could


      15        exercise that right, I think, pulls in a whole


      16        'nother layer of regulations.


      17             MR. WEBB:  Okay.


      18             MR. HAINLINE:  Mr. Webb, I would add to


      19        Ms. Eller's comment by -- I mean, by just


      20        pointing out that our parking has direct access


      21        to where we are from our upland ownership.


      22        We're not having to leap over property or create


      23        something incredibly circuitous.  We have direct


      24        access to where it is.


      25             We didn't -- we chose not to somehow hook





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the dock into here (indicating) because the


       2        condominium owners did not want that.  We kept


       3        the access where it is.  Our riparian rights and


       4        our ownership ends here, where the single-family


       5        ownership begins.


       6             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Fair enough.


       7             MR. HAINLINE:  So we can't extend a million


       8        miles up.


       9             MR. WEBB:  You know, I knew -- that's


      10        exactly -- I knew that would be your position.


      11             However, that -- again, you're not


      12        exercising your riparian rights over the


      13        property.  And, again, I hear your point that it


      14        was subject to a compromise with the home- --


      15        with the condo association, but --


      16             MR. HAINLINE:  Well, if it's important to


      17        our obtaining this PUD amendment as a legal


      18        requirement, if it's important for us to hook in


      19        here (indicating), we're happy to have an


      20        amendment to hook in here right now, but I don't


      21        think that's what anybody --


      22             MR. WEBB:  I understand.


      23             MR. HAINLINE:  -- would want.


      24             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Thank you.


      25             I have nothing else.  Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       2             Mr. Hainline, I have a question for you.


       3             The original PUD, the -- was the original


       4        marina -- I'm sorry, yacht club, owned by the


       5        current owner?


       6             MR. HAINLINE:  Epping Forest, yeah.


       7             Well, at the time the PUD was applied for,


       8        I don't know if the corporate entity was the


       9        same.  Obviously, the whole piece of property in


      10        its entirety was purchased from the Mason


      11        family, but the -- this ownership has been in


      12        unity, has been the same person since the


      13        property was acquired, so this all has stayed --


      14        rather, this has all stayed in the ownership of


      15        Epping Forest Yacht Club.


      16             There might have been a predecessor in


      17        title.  Certainly it goes back to whatever


      18        entity acquired the land from the Masons, but


      19        Epping Forest Yacht Club -- since the beginning


      20        of the PUD, Epping Forest Yacht Club has owned


      21        all of this (indicating), as well as the land


      22        along the promenade.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      24             I was going to say, in my opinion, I think


      25        the key to this whole thing is who owns the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        riparian rights.  And unless somebody wants to


       2        start doing some things on the state level and


       3        getting into that -- or maybe even the federal


       4        level, getting into that ball of wax, when you


       5        take on the ownership of that bulkhead, you also


       6        take on the responsibility of making sure that


       7        bulkhead stays whole.


       8             Somebody else could have taken on that


       9        responsibility, but there's dollar amounts


      10        associated with that -- taking on that


      11        bulkhead.


      12             I can tell you from living at the beach,


      13        there were circumstances and there's been law


      14        cases where the bulkhead was owned by somebody


      15        else, and you can erect a wall, and then people


      16        were basically held hostage because someone


      17        erected a 10-foot wall, and they said, "Well,


      18        for $100,000 I can take the 10-foot wall down."


      19             You know, so now, with the way it is, if


      20        you live at the beach, you own that bulkhead.


      21        You actually own 18 inches past the end of that


      22        bulkhead, so you don't have to worry about


      23        anybody erecting anything in front of your


      24        view.


      25             And, in this case, the yacht club happens





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to own those riparian rights, they happen to own


       2        that bulkhead.  That was smart of them.


       3             But, anyway, I don't see anybody else here


       4        in the queue, and we're -- Mr. Shad.


       5             MR. SHAD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       6             I want to thank the committee, again, for


       7        what's been a very thorough, thoughtful, careful


       8        consideration on this matter.  It's about as


       9        thorough as -- six years on LUZ -- well, five


      10        years on LUZ, one year now off -- that I've seen


      11        this committee take, and I appreciate it because


      12        it is a complex matter.


      13             I don't have a vote tonight.  If I did vote


      14        tonight, I would vote to support the


      15        application, although it's certainly not a


      16        lay-up.  And, as I said before, I'd encourage


      17        you to -- as I'm sure you will -- you know,


      18        simply vote on the evidence you heard.


      19             And take no weight in my opinion because


      20        I'd like you to vote this up or down on its


      21        merits without consideration to where the


      22        district councilperson is, although I do lean


      23        slightly towards support.


      24             The parking is important.  We have gone


      25        over that in great detail.  I feel satisfied





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that the parking is being addressed.


       2             The discussion of yacht club versus marina,


       3        I feel satisfied.  This is not a marina; this is


       4        a yacht club, boat club.  No fuel, no


       5        liveaboards, no repair.


       6             And then, as has been said, the -- it


       7        really comes down to ownership of the bulkhead


       8        and the 10 -- 8- to 10-foot promenade landscaped


       9        area, and the -- you know, the testimony from


      10        the residents that live in the condominiums,


      11        they're going to have the -- the view corridor


      12        affected is powerful and it is, you know -- but


      13        at the end of the day, I have to vote it on the


      14        substantial competent evidence that's been put


      15        before me, and that's where I'm at.


      16             So thank you again for your consideration.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Shad.


      18             Please open the ballot.


      19             (Committee ballot opened.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      21        vote.


      22             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)


      23             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      25             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       4             (Committee ballot closed.)


       5             MR. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


       7        approved 2008-651 as amended.


       8             We're going to take about a 10-minute break


       9        for our court reporter.


      10             Thank you, Diane, for sticking with us.


      11             We're in recess for about 10 or 15


      12        minutes.


      13             (Brief recess.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  It looks like we're


      15        ready to go again.


      16             I'm sorry that you guys had to go through


      17        that, but the court reporter, her hands were


      18        just going nonstop, and so we had to give her


      19        ten minutes.


      20             And, Diane, thanks for sticking in there


      21        with us because I think if we would have stopped


      22        in the middle of that, it probably would have


      23        added another hour to it.


      24             Anyway, let's go to the beginning of the


      25        agenda.  2005-1228 is deferred.  2006-24 is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        deferred.  2006-220 is deferred.


       2             Top of page 3.  2006-658 is deferred.


       3             2007-384.


       4             MR. WEBB:  Move withdrawal.


       5             MR. CLARK:  Second.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded


       7        to withdraw.


       8             Any discussion on the withdrawal?


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the


      11        ballot.


      12             (Committee ballot opened.)


      13             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)


      14             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      15             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      16             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      17             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      18             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      19             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      20             (Committee ballot closed.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      22        the vote.


      23             MR. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      25        withdrawn 2007-384.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             2007-581 is deferred.


       2             Top of page 4.  2007-803.


       3             MR. WEBB:  Move to withdraw.


       4             MR. CLARK:  Second.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded


       6        to withdraw -803.


       7             Any discussion on 2007-803?


       8             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the


      10        ballot.


      11             (Committee ballot opened.)


      12             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      14             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      15             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      16             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      17             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      18             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      19             (Committee ballot closed.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      21        vote.


      22             MR. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      24        withdrawn 2007-803.


      25             2007-1086.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. WEBB:  Move the sub.


       2             MR. CLARK:  Second.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  The sub's been moved and


       4        seconded.


       5             Any discussion on the sub?


       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  All in favor say aye.


       8             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.


      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you approved


      12        the sub.


      13             MR. WEBB:  Move rereferral of the sub.


      14             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Move to rerefer LUZ as


      16        substituted.


      17             Any further discussion on the rereferral?


      18             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the


      20        ballot.


      21             (Committee ballot opened.)


      22             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)


      23             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      25             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       4             (Committee ballot closed.)


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


       6        the vote.


       7             MR. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


       9        rereferred 2007-1086 to LUZ.


      10             2007-1350.  We will open that public


      11        hearing.


      12             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      13        public hearing and take no further action.


      14             2008-23.  We'll open the public hearing.


      15             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that


      16        public --


      17             MR. WEBB:  Move to withdraw.


      18             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's been moved and seconded


      20        to withdraw 2008-23.


      21             Any discussion on the withdrawal?


      22             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the


      24        ballot.


      25             (Committee ballot opened.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


       4             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       6             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       7             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       8             (Committee ballot closed.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      10        vote


      11             MR. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      13        withdrawn 2008-23.


      14             Top of page 5.  2008-236 is deferred.  -314


      15        is deferred.  -413 is deferred.


      16             Top of page 6.  -414, -415, and -416 are


      17        all deferred.


      18             Top of page 7.  -417, -418, and -419 are


      19        all deferred.


      20             Top of page 8.  -420 is deferred.


      21             -417 -- I'm sorry, -517.  We'll open the


      22        public hearing.


      23             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      24        public hearing and take no further action.


      25             -518.  We will open the public hearing.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        We have Mike Herzberg.


       2             (Mr. Herzberg approaches the podium.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no questions --


       4             MR. HERZBERG:  Mr. Chairman, for the


       5        record, Mike Herzberg.


       6             I am aware of the conditions.  I've worked


       7        those out with Sean Kelly and the district


       8        councilman.  I know of no opposition.  So, yes,


       9        sir, I will stand by for any questions.


      10             Thank you.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do we have any other


      12        speakers for that?


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further speakers,


      15        we'll close the public hearing.


      16             MR. WEBB:  Move the amendment.


      17             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment's been moved


      19        and seconded.


      20             Can we hear the amendment?


      21             MR. CROFTS:  The amendment is as follows --


      22        consists of the following conditions:


      23             Number 1, "The developer shall be subject


      24        to the original legal description dated March


      25        4th, 2008."





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Number 2, "The developer shall be subject


       2        to the original written description dated March


       3        4th, 2008."


       4             Number 3, "The developer shall be subject


       5        to the revised site plan dated September 10th,


       6        2008."


       7             Number 4, "The required transportation


       8        improvements shall be made in accordance with


       9        the Development Services memorandum dated


      10        September 8th, 2008, and the Florida Department


      11        of Transportation memorandum date July 15th,


      12        2008, or as otherwise approved by the Planning


      13        and Development Department and the FDOT."


      14             Number 5, "At the time of verification, a


      15        master site plan, including landscaping,


      16        parking, and pedestrian circulation shall be


      17        provided to the Planning and Development


      18        Department for review and approval.


      19             "This provision shall not be construed to


      20        require a PUD to PUD rezoning and will otherwise


      21        conform to Section 656.341(F)(1)."


      22             Number 6, "The building architecture shall


      23        be subject to the review and approval of the


      24        Planning and Development Department and shall


      25        follow design principles of the Commercial





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Design Guidelines and Best Practices Manual."


       2             Number 7, "Internally-illuminated wall


       3        signs may only face Atlantic Boulevard."


       4             Number 8, "The outdoor sale and service


       5        shall be permitted except for the west and south


       6        side of parcel A."


       7             Number 9, "Two drive-thru restaurants shall


       8        be permitted on parcel B and C.


       9        Twenty-four-hour drive-thrus shall be


      10        prohibited."


      11             Number 10 and finally, "The development


      12        shall be prohibited from using the Floridan


      13        aquifer water for irrigation and shall be


      14        required to use reuse water when available."


      15             That's it.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Were you in agreement with


      17        that?


      18             MR. HERZBERG:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm sitting here and I'm


      20        looking at a memo or a note from Bill Bishop,


      21        and it says here, "Fast-food restaurants shall


      22        be prohibited."  And you had said your amendment


      23        was only 24-hour drive-thrus were prohibited.


      24             MR. HERZBERG:  Through the Chair, if I may,


      25        I think actually Mr. Bishop's memo goes on to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        say "restaurants," that two drive-thrus would be


       2        permitted in those areas.


       3             I think what Mr. Bishop's memo is doing is


       4        something that Mr. Kelly and myself were working


       5        with him on.


       6             The original condition of the Department


       7        was to prohibit them.  It was not the desire of


       8        the district councilmember or the citizenry or


       9        the applicant to prohibit those.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is that the way the Planning


      11        Department reads this?


      12             The note that I'm reading, it just says --


      13        it's underlined.


      14             MR. KELLY:  To the Chair, I'll just state,


      15        initially, for the record, the Department's


      16        recommendation was to specifically prohibit


      17        fast-food restaurants.


      18             That was amended in concert with the memo.


      19        It's specific now to limiting drive-thrus only


      20        on parcels B and C.  I think it was inherent


      21        that there will be restaurants with a drive-thru


      22        service on those parcels.


      23             Mike can explain if there's --


      24             MR. HERZBERG:  If I may, sir.


      25             Mr. Chairman, the actual text that you have





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        there, the underlined portion is a portion that


       2        I had sent to Mr. Bishop earlier today to say,


       3        these are the things that are problematic in


       4        what came out of the Planning Commission.


       5             He worked from there and tries to explain


       6        that the issue, then, is to allow the


       7        drive-thrus only on parcels B and C, but I could


       8        assure you and, obviously, I'd be happy to


       9        provide by next Tuesday night the assurance from


      10        Councilmember Bill Bishop that he is not


      11        opposing the fast-food restaurants in those two


      12        locations; as a matter of fact, recognizes that


      13        it would permit the drive-thrus in their


      14        location on those two parcels as depicted.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      16             MR. HERZBERG:  Thank you.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  We're on the amendment.


      18             Any further discussion on the amendment?


      19             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, all in favor


      21        say aye.


      22             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Those opposed.


      24             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        approved the amendment.


       2             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended.


       3             MR. CLARK:  Second.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  The bill's been moved and


       5        seconded as amended.


       6             Any further discussion on the bill?


       7             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, please open the


       9        ballot.


      10             (Committee ballot opened.)


      11             MR. GRAHAM:  (Votes yea.)


      12             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      14             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      15             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      16             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      17             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      18             (Committee ballot closed.)


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      20        the vote.


      21             MS. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  But your action, you have


      23        approved -518 as amended.


      24             MR. HERZBERG:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and


      25        thank you, committee.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Thank you, Mr. Kelly.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  -541 is deferred.


       3             Top of page 9.  -542, -545, and -546 are


       4        all deferred.


       5             2008-547.  We will open the public hearing.


       6             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


       7        public hearing and take no further action.


       8             MR. WEBB:  Is that continued or closed?


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Continued.


      10             Top of page 10.  Open the public hearing.


      11             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      12        public hearing, take no further action.


      13             -549, -550, -551 are all deferred.


      14             Top of page --


      15             MR. HOLT:  (Inaudible.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.  That was the request


      17        by the district councilperson, that's correct.


      18             Top of page 11.  -552 is deferred.


      19             -562.  We'll open the public hearing.  We


      20        have Steve Cissel.


      21             Do you want to speak to this or are you


      22        just here for questions?


      23             MR. KELLY:  To the Chair, I believe the


      24        applicant -- he's the applicant for the


      25        rezoning.  I believe he left.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Then I guess


       2        that's "no."


       3             All right.  Seeing no further speakers,


       4        we'll continue that public hearing and take no


       5        further action.


       6             -563 is deferred.


       7             -564.  We will open that public hearing.


       8             MR. WEBB:  Mr. Chairman.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.


      10             MR. WEBB:  I'm sorry.  We have a speaker on


      11        that one?


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Indicating.)


      13             MR. WEBB:  Fair enough.


      14             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  -564?


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.  Come on down.


      16             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Give your name and address


      18        for the record, and you have three minutes.


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Charles


      20        Hovey.  I live at 11670 Mandarin Road.


      21             What I'm trying to do with the property is


      22        basically subdivide it back to the way it was


      23        when my grandfather acquired the property back


      24        in the 1940s.


      25             It's got a parcel A, which is the front,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        which is right on Mandarin Road.  Parcel B is


       2        where I currently have my home, which is a


       3        little bit more than 3,000 square foot, which


       4        I'm anticipating in the future it's going to be


       5        a little bit too large for me, and I'd like to


       6        go back in the future and possibly build on


       7        the -- on the front part.


       8             The waiver, from what I understand, by


       9        keeping the zoning the same way as it's been,


      10        rural residential, I need to have 80 linear feet


      11        per lot on Mandarin Road.  Right now I have


      12        110 feet, so I was advised that I needed to


      13        knock that down to zero to allow an access by an


      14        easement to the back, to lot B, where the


      15        current house is.


      16             By granting this and doing the approval, it


      17        will maintain Mandarin's historical appearance


      18        because it will -- it will just build one


      19        single-family home on the front part.  There


      20        will be no development.  There will be no


      21        request for rezoning, nothing like that.


      22             And denial will only allow me basically


      23        to -- in the future, probably have to sell the


      24        whole parcel off, three acres off at one time,


      25        so . . .





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I do request that you do approve that so


       2        that I can maintain the family estate and stay


       3        on the property that -- that has been in the


       4        family since the '40s.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       6             Any further speakers?


       7             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, we will close


       9        that public hearing.


      10             MR. WEBB:  Move the amendment to grant.


      11             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  We have a move the amendment


      13        to grant the waiver.


      14             I see here there's a Planning Department


      15        request for denial?


      16             MR. KELLY:  (Nods head.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do I have a second on it?


      18             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  We have -- moved and


      20        seconded.


      21             Any discussion on the amendment to grant


      22        the waiver?


      23             MR. WEBB:  Mr. Chairman, yeah.


      24             With respect to this, I recognize that the


      25        Planning Department has recommended denial on





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        this.  However, in -- you know, in having


       2        reviewed the file, I think -- I take the


       3        applicant at his word with respect to


       4        maintaining the historic integrity of Mandarin


       5        Road in this area.


       6             I'm very familiar with the property.  I


       7        drove by, did a site visit.  In my view, this


       8        will not have any adverse impact on the


       9        community at all.  In fact, the fact that we are


      10        able to maintain stability with respect to the


      11        property ownership there I think in the


      12        long-term does more for the community, so I


      13        would ask the committee to support the amendment


      14        to grant the waiver.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Eller.


      16             MS. ELLER:  No.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Planning Department.


      18             MR. KELLY:  Through the Chair, I would just


      19        say that there's some additional information I


      20        don't think that was referenced in the report.


      21             There may have been some pages missing in


      22        the staff recommendation in your book, but I did


      23        want to point out that this is in the Mandarin


      24        Road overlay area, the subject property.  And


      25        according to the legal description that was





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        submitted, the -- it appears that the overall


       2        property that would be partitioned out would


       3        be -- would then result in -- if it's my


       4        understanding, would it be two lots less than an


       5        acre in size?  If that's the case, that would be


       6        the only potential conflict that I see.


       7             MR. WEBB:  Through the Chair, if I may,


       8        Mr. Chairman.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Hold on.  Let him finish his


      10        thought.


      11             MR. WEBB:  Okay.


      12             Go ahead.


      13             MR. KELLY:  Well, that and the general kind


      14        of health, safety, welfare issues that we


      15        typically deal with, addressing and locating,


      16        that the address be clearly marked off that


      17        section of Scott Mill Road [sic].  Additionally,


      18        the easement to provide access to that property


      19        should be improved to provide stabilized,


      20        positive drainage that can handle those types of


      21        emergency vehicles that may need to get back


      22        there.


      23             Those would be, I guess, the other


      24        components if we're going to support this.


      25             MR. WEBB:  I'm sorry --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


       2             MR. WEBB:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       3             Sir, would you come on down, please.


       4             MR. HOVEY:  (Complies.)


       5             MR. WEBB:  We can do this one or two ways,


       6        I guess.  We could -- we can continue the public


       7        hearing and defer this one cycle so as to work


       8        this out, or if those recommendations from the


       9        Planning Department are acceptable to you, sir,


      10        I would offer them as an amendment -- as a


      11        condition.


      12             And, Sean, could you restate that, please.


      13             Or, first of all, let me -- through the


      14        Chair, sir, this will not result in a compromise


      15        of the Mandarin overlay in that there's adequate


      16        property there, you will not have lots less than


      17        one acre; is that correct?


      18             MR. HOVEY:  Correct.  I already subdivided


      19        it to maintain the rule.  I've got one acre up


      20        front and one acre --


      21             (Simultaneous speaking.)


      22             MR. WEBB:  It is RR.  So, again, it's the


      23        health, safety, welfare issues.


      24             If you could repeat those conditions,


      25        please.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. KELLY:  Certainly.


       2             Condition one would be, "The address shall


       3        be clearly marked and identified on Scott Mill


       4        Road."


       5             MR. HOVEY:  The property is on Mandarin


       6        Road.