1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, August 5,
7 2008, commencing at 5:05 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 ART GRAHAM, Chair.
STEPHEN JOOST, Vice Chair.
14 RICHARD CLARK, Committee Member.
JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
15 RAY HOLT, Committee Member.
JACK WEBB, Committee Member.
16 DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
CLAY YARBOROUGH, City Council Member.
19 JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
20 KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
21 RICK CAMPBELL, Research Assistant.
MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.
22 MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
23 - - -
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 August 5, 2008 5:05 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everybody.
5 Let the record show it is about 5:05 on
6 Tuesday, August the 5th. This is the LUZ
7 Committee meeting.
8 And if we can start over here on the right
9 with Mr. Crofts. Just give us your name,
10 please.
11 MR. CROFTS: John Crofts, Planning and
12 Development.
13 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
14 Development.
15 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
16 Development.
17 MS. ELLER: Shannon Eller, Office of
18 General Counsel.
19 MR. YARBOROUGH: Clay Yarborough,
20 District 1.
21 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4.
22 DR. GAFFNEY: Dr. Gaffney, District 7.
23 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt, District 11.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Gaffney, I think your
25 mic works. I just don't think the light works.
Diane M. Tropia,
3
1 Try it.
2 DR. GAFFNEY: Testing.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: There you go.
4 I am Art Graham, the Chair.
5 MR. JOOST: Stephen Joost, Group 3,
6 at-large.
7 MR. WEBB: Jab Webb, District 6.
8 MR. CLARK: Richard Clark, concerned
9 taxpayer.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
11 And welcome to Mr. Webb that just joined us
12 at LUZ, late addition to the LUZ Committee.
13 We have a special request from
14 Councilmember Yarborough. Page 10, number 33,
15 2008-495.
16 The first thing we need to do, we need to
17 open the public hearing. We have Dave Touring.
18 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Dave, come on down.
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Graham, committee
21 members.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Dave, name and address for
23 the record, and you've got three minutes.
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Dave Touring. I'm the
25 agent for the owner and applicant.
Diane M.
Tropia,
4
1 I received the staff report on this
2 application just today, so I did not have enough
3 time to prepare that I would like to, but I did
4 want to quickly clarify some of the standards
5 and findings that were found in hopes that the
6 recommendation for denial may be reversed to an
7 approval.
8 The first, most important is the
9 justification for financial difficulties. The
10 applicant is on a section of road that is
11 improved, but poorly improved. He, along with
12 three other businesses and a JEA lift station,
13 use that right-of-way to gain access to the
14 businesses that are currently operating. This
15 is not a new development.
16 We've been through a large portion of the
17 Planning and Development process. We've been
18 through two rounds of ten-sets. We've been
19 through JEA. We've been through the District.
20 We've been through concurrency. We have a
21 development agreement for a -- the concurrency.
22 So we've been quite a long ways down the --
23 down the road to approval, and the waiver of
24 road frontage, I guess, was our last step.
25 The approximate cost to improve this is
Diane M.
Tropia,
5
1 somewhere between 100- and $120,000 to improve
2 the right-of-way up to the point of -- to the
3 end of the property, which is just financially
4 prohibitive to the applicant who just wants to
5 improve his business by removing an office
6 trailer that he's currently using and putting up
7 a permanent building structure with some
8 storage.
9 For the most part, that is the -- that's
10 the gist of the application.
11 I believe that, because it's an existing
12 condition, there would not be any detriment to
13 existing property values out there. Everybody
14 is using the road as it is. It's got some
15 potholes and it's not really in great shape, but
16 it is an existing road, it is being used, it is
17 being serviced, and there are four businesses
18 that currently use this unimproved road.
19 I'm open for questions.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions for the
21 speaker?
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: No?
24 Just stay nearby. I'm sure someone is
25 going to have some questions after we close the
Diane M.
Tropia,
6
1 public hearing.
2 Do we have any other speakers on this?
3 MS. ALLEN: No.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We'll close the
5 public hearing and we will bring it back to the
6 Planning Department.
7 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
8 Through the Chair to the committee,
9 ordinance 2008-495 is a waiver of road frontage
10 seeking to reduce the minimum required road
11 frontage from thirty-five feet to zero feet.
12 The subject property is located at the
13 northerly end of
15 However, the right-of-way terminates -- or at
16 least the approved portion of the right-of-way
17 terminates approximately a few hundred feet
18 south of the subject property, and there are
19 some vacant properties in between.
20 Staff is recommending denial of this
21 application in that we feel that there's an
22 inherent public safety issue with approving
23 these sorts of requests without having the road
24 brought up to City standards.
25 Additionally -- there is some unique
Diane M.
Tropia,
7
1 history to this, which I'm not privy to today.
2 I did send an e-mail over to
3 the -- Public Works, Streets and Drainage
4 Division. So there is some history to this.
5 I believe it's -- at one point, it was
6 carried over from the County as an approved
7 road, but then kind of fell into disrepair over
8 time, and so I think the City abandoned the
9 approved status of it at some point in the
10 past.
11 So there is some development that exists
12 off of there and it's utilized on a daily basis
13 by those businesses and employees that work for
14 those companies down the road.
15 Initially, we thought it was a precedent,
16 but at this time it's not necessarily a
17 precedent due to the other businesses, but we
18 feel the -- I guess the continued development of
19 properties along this section of roadway -- at
20 some point, the road does need to be brought
21 into compliance, and I think we're willing to --
22 to come to some middle ground to alleviate
23 the -- alleviate that.
24 There is also, I believe, a JEA lift
25 station that is north of the property. And,
Diane M.
Tropia,
8
1 honestly, they have some big trucks that are
2 able to get up and down the road, no problem,
3 and service their facilities. So we are kind of
4 in limbo at this point.
5 Initially, the staff recommendation was a
6 denial. We would be looking for some
7 improvements at least to the section of roadway
8 that exists in front of their property and then
9 maybe as others come on line, some of these
10 other vacant parcels develop, that they go ahead
11 and then improve the right-of-way in front of
12 their property as well, ultimately bringing it
13 closer to City standards, which would be the
14 intent of the code.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, let me understand what
16 you're saying. You're saying that -- you think
17 that it was a City road and the City abandoned
18 the road, but you just need to hear back from
19 Public Works on the details?
20 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
21 At some point, the County -- when the
22 County consolidated prior to '69, there was a
23 lot of roads that were old County roads that
24 didn't meet current City standards, and so
25 portions were accepted, portions that were
Diane M.
Tropia,
9
1 nonconforming and nonCity standard were accepted
2 for maintenance as well.
3 This portion of the road, to my
4 understanding, was probably -- I've seen this
5 before in a number of instances in older areas
6 of town. I believe this section was probably
7 not accepted by the City at that time of
8 consolidation, and so -- but it was probably
9 there or existing around that time, so --
10 But there is a little bit of lack of
11 information. I know Councilman Yarborough may
12 have had a conversation with
13 he can elaborate further.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Councilman Yarborough, that
15 brings us to you. This is your district.
16 MR. YARBOROUGH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 And I appreciate the committee's indulgence
18 to take this up.
19 As Mr. Kelly mentioned, I did -- I talked
20 to one of the City engineers this afternoon,
21 Mr. Hazen, in our Engineering Department, and
22 just a little bit of the history -- you have in
23 your packet -- page 7 for this bill shows you
24 Tresca Road, which is -- it goes northward off
Diane M.
Tropia,
10
1 and it is currently a dead-end road. It would
2 have access to another road that connects up
3 near Monument, but that access has been closed
4 off, so the only traffic utilizing this roadway
5 is for the few industrial properties that are up
6 there along -- primarily on the east part of
7 Tresca, including Mr. Griffis' property.
8 I know we have to meet criteria when we do
9 this. There is -- there are a couple of things
10 about this. One, as Mr. Kelly mentioned, the
11 old -- the way the books were before -- this was
12 a 40-foot right-of-way back years ago, and is --
13 there was development that took place along the
14 road under the old City standard or County
15 standard, I guess it was at the time, and now
16 our minimum is 50 feet. So that was one thing
17 that was different.
18 And there is already a precedent set on
19 this road by some businesses that are north of
20 this property that have allowed signage to be
21 closer to where the roadway is now, which I
22 believe is a two-way road all the way up and
23 down back to
24 And so with -- in light of those two
25 things, and also as I look over the criteria,
Diane M.
Tropia,
11
1 as Mr. -- I'm sorry -- Mr. Touring had
2 indicated, with the economic situation and all,
3 I do believe that would be a -- somewhat of an
4 economic difficulty for the applicant if we were
5 to try to burden them with improving the whole
6 part of the roadway back there.
7 I mean, I would suggest as a compromise, if
8 it would be amenable to the committee, that
9 perhaps -- maybe just the portion that's in
10 front of this business, if the applicant would
11 be willing to make some improvement there, and
12 then I think that would also satisfy our need to
13 ensure that our police, fire, ambulances and all
14 that can get up and down there, and satisfy that
15 part, and then --
16 And then the other part, as far as
17 diminishing property values, I don't think that
18 would be the case either because, like I said,
19 this -- this is industrial property back there,
20 and that's what all the properties on that road
21 primarily are, so I don't think it will have an
22 effect, and there's not -- there aren't
23 neighborhoods that are farther down the road or
24 houses or anything like that.
25 So I would encourage the committee to grant
Diane M.
Tropia,
12
1 it, and I'll try to answer any questions. I
2 know Mr. Touring is here too.
3 Mr. Chairman, if I could, I failed to do
4 this when we opened the public hearing. I did
5 have ex-parte briefly with Mr. Touring today at
6 5 o'clock, right before we started the meeting,
7 to discuss the condition of the property. I
8 just wanted to make sure I got that on record
9 too. I apologize for that.
10 That's all I have. I just ask for the
11 committee to grant it.
12 MR. CLARK: Move to amend to grant the
13 waiver.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Do I have a second?
15 MR. WEBB: Second.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I've got a motion and a
17 second.
18 I had a question for you.
19 MR. YARBOROUGH: Yeah.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: You said that you would
21 support amending this so they have to make minor
22 improvements to the road in front of them. I
23 think you need to define a little bit more
24 what's "minor."
25 MR. YARBOROUGH: Right.
Diane M.
Tropia,
13
1 I'll ask Mr. Kelly for that too, and I know
2 we did need to ask Mr. Touring if he would be
3 amenable to that.
4 I assume we were just -- we're talking
5 about some minor improvements, Sean, that would
6 be in front of the property there at 461?
7 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
8 We would look for an improved, paved,
9 24-foot-wide roadway segment for the portion of
10 Tresca Road that fronts there, abutting the
11 property -- abutting Tresca, along that road, a
12 24-foot-wide, paved for two-way traffic, to
13 allow for the -- those types of vehicles and to
14 improve that segment so as other properties come
15 on line and develop down that road on those
16 vacant parcels, that we can impose that same
17 requirement, so ultimately we have a connected
18 series and segment of roadway.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I've got a question
20 before we go forward.
21 So what you're asking for is for them to
22 improve the road directly in front of their
23 property, and that's it? Nothing to the north
24 of it, nothing to the south of it, just a chunk
25 of asphalt in front of their property?
Diane M.
Tropia,
14
1 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: That doesn't make a whole
3 lot of sense to me.
4 MR. KELLY: I think the rationale being
5 that it was too onerous for them to -- for this
6 one developer to improve the entire road
7 segment, but it's more fair, so to speak, for
8 them to improve the segment that they effect,
9 and so from a -- I guess a rational nexus and --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I mean, I don't have a
11 problem with them -- I guess maybe a fair share
12 is not what you pay into, but pay into some sort
13 of fund so as people come forward, they can all
14 pay into that fund so this road eventually gets
15 paved, or get JTA or whoever is currently on
16 that road to pay into this fund, but just paving
17 a section right in front of their place, you go
18 from dirt to asphalt to dirt again, I don't see
19 it.
20 MR. KELLY: I don't disagree.
21 There's no mechanism in place right now for
22 payment to a fund. I mean, maybe it's -- you
23 know, it would be a sector fund and those -- or,
24 you know -- not necessarily would be spent on
25 this roadway segment.
Diane M.
Tropia,
15
1 The concurrency, I believe, is in place at
2 this time.
3 We would look for some improvement to
4 stabilize it and maybe hold them responsible for
5 maintaining it since it's still not accepted by
6 the City, so -- what that -- what the
7 stabilization or improvements within the
8 right-of-way -- I mean, if they want to use --
9 we're looking, one, for positive drainage and
10 something wide enough to handle two-way traffic
11 vehicles and compacted enough to handle the
12 heavier types of vehicles, fire trucks and
13 such.
14 And so if they do pave it, unfortunately,
15 that's going to have the effect of triggering
16 storm water retention as well, so maybe --
17 that's probably a bad idea.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: So maybe the solution is
19 maybe some lime rock and then level it out a
20 little bit.
21 MR. KELLY: Yeah.
22 Stabilized, provide for positive drainage,
23 24-foot-wide -- they could use a gravel or a
24 coquina material. We would be okay with that.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Hold on. I've
Diane M.
Tropia,
16
1 got Mr. Yarborough and then Mr. Holt.
2 MR. YARBOROUGH: I was just going to ask,
3 Mr. Touring, the way the road is now,
4 there's -- I know there's some potholes and some
5 other deterioration along the road.
6 What -- I guess from
7 property there, do you --
8 MR. TOURING: For the most part, the road
9 is in good condition up to the point at which
10 the improved portion stops.
11 It has been paved and there's asphalt, but
12 there are broken up spots and there are a few
13 potholes as you get closer -- farther down
14 towards the applicant's property, but for the
15 most part it's -- it's wide.
16 I actually took some pictures today in case
17 you -- you're interested. I can distribute
18 them. It just gives you an idea of how wide it
19 is. And for the most part, it -- it's asphalt.
20 It's just
21 MR. YARBOROUGH: And that goes up to, and
22 then on past --
23 MR. TOURING: Up to and past --
24 MR. YARBOROUGH: -- the property at 461?
25 So it's not a dirt road in front of --
Diane M.
Tropia,
17
1 MR. TOURING: It is not a dirt road.
2 MR. YARBOROUGH: -- the applicant's
3 property?
4 MR. TOURING: It is not a dirt road in any
5 form.
6 MR. YARBOROUGH: Okay. Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
8 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9 I'm a little confused. You're saying that
10 it is pretty much asphalt with just a few
11 problems from
12 driveway?
13 MR. TOURING: Yes.
It's -- from
14 till the point at which the City stops
15 maintaining it, whatever point that is, it's
16 what I would call, you know, high quality
17 paving. And then, at that point, it becomes
18 lower quality asphalt paving.
19 MR. HOLT: After your driveway?
20 MR. TOURING: Before the driveway and after
21 the driveway. There's a -- the section of road
22 that is not improved --
23 MR. HOLT: How far?
24 MR. TOURING: It's got to be 6- or 700 feet
25 total.
Diane M.
Tropia,
18
1 MR. HOLT: Okay.
2 MR. TOURING: But it is -- as I mentioned,
3 there's asphalt on it and there's gravel and
4 asphalt. It's not dirt and it's also full
5 width.
6 MR. HOLT: And through the Chair to the
7 Planning Department, do we have any reason to
8 believe that there are going to be future
9 developments down this road that might need to
10 pay into some sort of found to improve this
11 road?
12 MR. KELLY: The -- yes, I do.
13 I think there's -- I believe there's a
14 number of vacant parcels here that would have to
15 essentially come back forward through this
16 request.
17 I don't know if there's -- I do not believe
18 there's anything planned right now for Tresca
19 within our Capital Improvement Program for this
20 section of roadway.
21 But, yes, I mean, I do think that --
22 obviously, as more industrial development
23 occurs, there will be similar requests in the
24 future.
25 MR. HOLT: Okay. And, obviously, this
Diane M.
Tropia,
19
1 isn't a CIE road or anything that we would be
2 able to use fair share on, but I like
3 Mr. Graham's idea of -- maybe we could start
4 some sort of fund for this road to be improved
5 eventually at the expense of the people that are
6 going to be using it.
7 Do we know what these PUDs are? They're
8 not residential, are they?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly.
10 MR. KELLY: No. This is -- this is the --
11 all industrial to the west.
12 I believe there was an industrial
13 development that was -- there was an issue, I
14 think, with the senior living apartments that
15 were in the RMD-E, which are immediately west,
16 but there's a substantial buffer that exists and
17 there's no access from Tresca into that
18 multifamily development to the west.
19 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you.
20 Mr. Chair, I don't have anything specific
21 that I want to suggest here, but I did like the
22 way you were going with the idea of providing a
23 fund.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I have Mr. Redman, or is
25 that Yarborough, or is that both of you?
Diane M.
Tropia,
20
1 MR. YARBOROUGH: Him and then me.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
3 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
4 It would make sense to me that patching
5 these potholes -- if you've got -- have pavement
6 there already, patching the potholes makes a lot
7 more sense than putting coquina or gravel or
8 something that would destroy the pavement that
9 is already there. And I like the idea of a fund
10 to --
11 But you say that the City maintains a
12 portion of this road down maybe a hundred feet
13 from your property?
14 MR. TOURING: It's about 200 feet from the
15 property.
16 MR. REDMAN: All right. So you have nice
17 pavement down to that point. So you're talking
18 about 100 feet or 200 feet from that point to
19 your property?
20 MR. TOURING: Roughly.
21 MR. REDMAN: Okay. I mean, even if he
22 needed to repave that portion, from the City's
23 portion to your property --
24 MR. TOURING: The applicant has a pretty
25 substantial frontage along Tresca. He owns two
Diane M.
Tropia,
21
1 lots basically side by side and he's developing
2 the northern lot, so there's a lot that is owned
3 by the business between the end of the improved
4 roadway and his property as well.
5 MR. REDMAN: I think that, you know,
6 sealing up the potholes that are there would be
7 the most efficient way to --
8 MR. TOURING: I think that the applicant
9 is --
10 MR. REDMAN: -- maintain --
11 MR. TOURING: -- preferring to seal them up
12 as well.
13 MR. REDMAN: Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Yarborough.
15 MR. YARBOROUGH: Thank you, Mr. Graham.
16 I agree with what Mr. Redman just said. I
17 was going to say that if we -- perhaps as a
18 go-between, then, have the applicant commit to
19 filling in the potholes and improving those
20 parts between where the City -- where the City's
21 part stops, and then to their property, I think,
22 would be a -- kind of a fair thing to ask them
23 to do.
24 And then the only -- the other thing is I
25 disagree with -- as far as a fund, I disagree
Diane M.
Tropia,
22
1 with that because we would actually -- I think
2 we'd be trying to burden -- you know, we don't
3 know what kind of development may or may not
4 happen along that road in the future, and I
5 don't know if it would be fair to the ones that
6 are there now to try to impose a fund. And then
7 how would you measure it, by the frontage or by
8 the number of parcels or -- you know, things
9 like that. I don't know that that would be the
10 best way to go about it.
11 But, like I said, I go back to what
12 Mr. Redman was saying, if they could just
13 improve the potholes from the City's part of
14 their property, I think that would be a, you
15 know, fair compromise.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: It's your district.
17 All right. So we have an amendment to
18 approve the waiver, and I think the suggestion
19 that came from Mr. Yarborough was if the
20 applicant would agree, we can amend this to fill
21 the potholes along the way, which I think he
22 probably would.
23 MR. TOURING: Yes.
24 MR. HOLT: Move the amendment.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: And Mr. Holt is making that
Diane M.
Tropia,
23
1 amendment to the amendment, and that's been
2 seconded.
3 And, Mr. Webb, do you have anything else to
4 add?
5 MR. WEBB: No. I call the question.
6 MR. CLARK: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: There we go.
8 All in favor of the amendment say aye.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
13 approved the amendment.
14 MR. CLARK: Move the bill as amended to
15 grant the waiver.
16 MR. WEBB: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
18 seconded to grant the waiver.
19 Any discussion? As twice amended.
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
22 ballot.
23 (Committee ballot opened.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
25 the vote.
Diane M.
Tropia,
24
1 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
4 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
8 (Committee ballot closed.)
9 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
11 approved 2008-495 to grant the waiver.
12 Mr. Touring.
13 MR. TOURING: Thank you for your time.
14 MR. YARBOROUGH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: No problem.
16 Now, council members, we can turn to the --
17 again, the agenda.
18 2005-1228 is deferred. 2006-24 is
19 deferred. 2006-220 is deferred. 2006-360 is
20 deferred.
21 Top of page 3. 2006-658 is deferred.
22 2007-144.
23 MR. WEBB: Move to withdraw.
24 MR. CLARK: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
Diane M.
Tropia,
25
1 to withdraw.
2 Any discussion on the withdrawal?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
5 ballot.
6 (Committee ballot opened.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
8 the vote.
9 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
12 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
16 (Committee ballot closed.)
17 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
19 withdrawn 2007-144.
20 2007-145.
21 MR. HOLT: Move to withdraw.
22 MR. CLARK: Second.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
24 to withdraw.
25 Any discussion on the withdrawal?
Diane M.
Tropia,
26
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
3 ballot.
4 (Committee ballot opened.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
6 the vote.
7 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
10 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
14 (Committee ballot closed.)
15 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
17 withdrawn 2007-145.
18 Committee members, top of page 4. 2007-348
19 is deferred -- I'm sorry, -384 is deferred.
20 -581 is deferred. -803 is deferred.
21 2007-1086. Open the public hearing.
22 No speakers. Close the public hearing,
23 take no further action.
24 Top of page 5. 2007-1350. Open the public
25 hearing.
Diane M.
Tropia,
27
1 No speakers. We'll continue the public
2 hearing and take no action.
3 2008-23. Open the public hearing.
4 No speakers. We'll continue and take no
5 further action.
6 2008-40. Open the public hearing.
7 Anybody to speak?
8 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: No.
10 We'll continue the public hearing and take
11 no action.
12 2008-236 is deferred.
13 Top of page 6. 2008-279 is deferred. -280
14 is deferred.
15 -313. We'll open the public hearing.
16 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go ahead -- Mr. Joost,
18 you want to declare ex-parte?
19 MR. JOOST: Yes.
20 I would like to declare ex-parte on -616
21 [sic].
22 I met with Mike Herzberg on 7/1. I met
23 with Patrick Thornton, Tom Ingram, and
24 Mr. Purvis.
25 I met -- on August 5th, I had a phone call
Diane M.
Tropia,
28
1 with Tom Ingram, today, and I had another phone
2 call with Mike Herzberg earlier this afternoon.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb.
4 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 I too rise to declare ex-parte this
6 afternoon at 3:44 p.m. I had a conversation
7 with Hugh Matthews of ETM regarding the facts
8 surrounding this application.
9 Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Anybody else while we're on
11 the subject?
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Mr. Ingram.
14 (Mr. Ingram approaches the podium.)
15 MR. INGRAM: Good evening.
16 Tom Ingram,
17 Suite 400.
18 You've heard a fair amount about this
19 project, but just to update you, we've been
20 working with Mr. Herzberg about the concerns
21 that he's raised on behalf of an adjacent
22 landowner, and we believe we have worked those
23 issues out.
24 We have provided a revised written
25 description to -- which basically enhances some
Diane M.
Tropia,
29
1 of the landscaping and fencing along the
2 southern boundary. It also provides for a
3 shared sign on the southwesterly corner on the
4 interstate.
5 And there are a couple of additional
6 changes to that that we would like to
7 incorporate into a revised written description
8 to be submitted before the full council, but
9 basically it is to -- there are canopy trees and
10 tree plantings required along the boundary of
11 this multifamily complex. It's on the south
12 end, closest to the Sleiman property. And
13 Mr. Herzberg requested that the trees be spaced
14 every 40 feet rather than every 50, and that the
15 trees be spaced not farther away from each other
16 than 60 feet. We had 75. And we are fine with
17 that, and we will submit it that way, or if you
18 want, you can move that way or we'll submit it
19 as a revised written description.
20 Also, the Planning staff had requested
21 that -- as part of the signage description, that
22 we clarify that there be -- that the electronic
23 reader board be referred to as a changing
24 message device, which is a technical term used
25 by the zoning code, and that it be clarified to
Diane M. Tropia,
30
1 state no motion, action, flashing, or other
2 light and color changes activated by mechanical,
3 electrical or other nonnatural means, and that
4 verbiage is out of the code.
5 With that, I'd be happy to answer any
6 questions you may have about the application.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sure you don't have any.
8 Thank you.
9 Mr. Herzberg.
10 (Mr. Herzberg approaches the podium.)
11 MR. HERZBERG: Mr. Chairman and members of
12 the committee, thank you very much.
13 It's been a good experience working with
14 this group. I think we're -- we've come to an
15 amicable solution here in which all parties end
16 up winners.
17 I appreciate the will of the council here
18 to give us additional time to work these things
19 out, and thank you -- each of you for meeting
20 with both parties to come to these terms.
21 We look forward to finishing this matter
22 and we will be doing that over the next
23 several -- next week, I should say, as we revise
24 the written description and resubmit that for
25 final adoption.
Diane M.
Tropia,
31
1 Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost, do you have any
3 questions for this speaker?
4 MR. JOOST: No, Mr. Chairman.
5 I inadvertently left off one other meeting
6 I had on 6/25 in my ex-parte communications with
7 Mike Herzberg, Eli Sleiman, and Rob Heekin.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
9 Is there any other speakers for this?
10 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll close the
12 public hearing.
13 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
14 MR. HOLT: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
16 and seconded.
17 Let's hear what the amendment is, Planning
18 Department.
19 MR. CROFTS: Mr. Chairman, the amendment
20 consists of five conditions and I'll read them
21 into the record.
22 First, "The development shall be subject to
23 the original legal description dated February
24 26th, 2008."
25 "The development shall be subject to the
Diane M.
Tropia,
32
1 revised written description dated August 5th,
2 2008."
3 Number 3, "The development shall be subject
4 to the original site plan dated May 25th, 2008."
5 Number 4, "The required transportation
6 improvements shall be made in accordance with
7 the Development Services Division memorandum
8 dated April 17th, 2008, or as otherwise approved
9 by the Planning and Development Department."
10 Number 5, "Multifamily structures which
11 face or back up to each other shall provide at
12 least 40 feet of separation between the
13 structures. Multifamily structures must have a
14 minimum separation of at least 20 feet between
15 the end walls and 20 feet between an end wall
16 and face or rear of another multifamily
17 structure."
18 That's it.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Ingram, are you
20 okay with all that?
21 MR. INGRAM: Yes, sir.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now, Mr. Redman, are
23 you okay with all that?
24 MR. REDMAN: Yes, sir.
25 I am happy that they were able to work this
Diane M.
Tropia,
33
1 out, and I'm happy with this.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, as I -- we talked about
3 in the agenda meeting, if this thing passes
4 here, it's not coming back. So I'm sure you
5 guys are all -- have all got it laid out because
6 this thing has gone around and around long
7 enough.
8 Any other persons? Anybody?
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the
11 amendment say aye.
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: By your --
16 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
17 MR. CLARK: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
19 seconded as amended.
20 Any further discussion on the bill?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
23 ballot.
24 (Committee ballot opened.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
Diane M.
Tropia,
34
1 the vote.
2 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
5 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
9 (Committee ballot closed.)
10 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
12 approved 2008-313 as amended.
13 Top of page 7. 2008-314. Open the public
14 hearing.
15 No speakers. Continue. No further action.
16 -336 [sic]. Open the public hearing.
17 Continue. No further action.
18 MR. CLARK: -362.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: -362, sorry.
20 -413. Open the public hearing.
21 Seeing none, close the public hearing, take
22 no further action.
23 -414. Open the public hearing.
24 No speakers. Close the public hearing, no
25 further action.
Diane M.
Tropia,
35
1 Top of page 8. -515 [sic], -516 [sic],
2 -517 [sic], -518 [sic]. Open those public
3 hearings.
4 No speakers. Close all those public
5 hearings, no further action.
6 Top of page 9. 2008-419. Open the public
7 hearing.
8 No speakers. We'll close the public
9 hearing.
10 MR. CLARK: Move the amendment.
11 MR. WEBB: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
13 and seconded.
14 Can we get the amendment, please.
15 MR. CROFTS: The amendment, to the
16 committee, consists of changing the RPI land use
17 category to PBF, which will allow this to move
18 forward as a small scale amendment to the State
19 rather than be converted to a semiannual
20 amendment, which would happen to -- have to
21 occur if it stayed in its current posture.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
23 Mr. Webb.
24 MR. WEBB: Thank you.
25 Through the Chair to Planning and to
Diane M.
Tropia,
36
1 perhaps the general counsel, what is the
2 standard for moving something from a semiannual
3 text amendment to a small scale use?
4 MS. ELLER: (Indicating.)
5 MR. WEBB:
6 MS. ELLER: Through the Chair to
7 Councilmember Webb, what has happened is -- the
8 City had a policy of passing certain types of
9 land use changes as small scale amendments, and
10 we had done that for years.
11 With the new Department of Community
12 Affairs administration, the new secretary, they
13 tightened up those restrictions and now we have
14 pending on our agenda a batch of small scales
15 that the DCA says are no longer permitted to be
16 small scale because they increase residential
17 density too much.
18 So what has happened is a batch that we had
19 already sent over to DCA are now getting lumped
20 into the next semiannual series, and a group
21 that are pending on your agenda now are going to
22 have to be substituted and rereferred to turn
23 them into semiannuals, and they're going to have
24 to go through the two-step process.
25 Now, the one way out of it is, if your land
Diane M.
Tropia,
37
1 use category doesn't include any residential,
2 then you're out of this problem with DCA. So
3 this applicant wants to amend and rerefer so we
4 can readvertise it as going from CGC and LDR to
5 PBF because PBF gets you out of the problem.
6 You can do the small scale process, which is a
7 one-shot deal at council, instead of the
8 two-step process in DCA --
9 MR. WEBB: Okay. Understood. Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
11 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12 I just wanted to say thank you to the
13 Planning Department for working this through.
14 Several weeks ago, we ran into this problem
15 and I had asked them to try and come up with
16 something, anything we could -- we could change
17 this to in order to accomplish the goal that the
18 property owner wanted to because they are --
19 it's a women's clinic for a church, their -- a
20 mission for -- antiabortion clinic, basically,
21 that does ultrasounds on women that come in
22 there, and I appreciate you working with them.
23 Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no other questions on
25 the amendment, all in favor say aye.
Diane M. Tropia,
38
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
5 approved the amendment.
6 MR. CLARK: Move to rerefer as amended.
7 MR. JOOST: Second.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
9 to rerefer as amended.
10 Any further discussion on the rereferral?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
13 ballot.
14 (Committee ballot opened.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
16 the vote.
17 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
20 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 (Committee ballot closed.)
25 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
Diane M.
Tropia,
39
1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
2 rereferred 2008-419.
3 -420. Open the public hearing.
4 No speakers. Close the public hearing,
5 take no further action.
6 -491. Open the public hearing.
7 MR. WEBB: Move to withdraw.
8 MR. CLARK: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no speakers, close
10 the public hearing.
11 There's a move and second to withdraw.
12 Any discussion on withdrawal?
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
15 ballot.
16 (Committee ballot opened.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
18 the vote.
19 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
22 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
40
1 (Committee ballot closed.)
2 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
4 withdrawn 2008-491.
5 2008-492. Open the public hearing.
6 Is the applicant here for this bill?
7 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: No.
9 Okay. We will continue the public hearing,
10 take no further action.
11 MR. WEBB: -493?
12 THE CHAIRMAN: On -492.
13 Top of page 10. 2008-493. Open the public
14 hearing.
15 No speakers. Close the public hearing.
16 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
17 MR. CLARK: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
19 seconded.
20 Let's hear the amendment.
21 Well, never mind. I don't want to hear the
22 amendment.
23 All in favor of the amendment say aye.
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
Diane M.
Tropia,
41
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
3 approved the amendment.
4 MR. WEBB: Move to rerefer as amended to
5 LUZ.
6 MR. CLARK: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
8 to rerefer to LUZ as amended.
9 Any discussion on rereferral?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
12 ballot.
13 (Committee ballot opened.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
15 the vote.
16 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
19 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
23 (Committee ballot closed.)
24 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
Diane M.
Tropia,
42
1 rereferred 2008-493.
2 2008-494. Open the public hearing.
3 Seeing no speakers, close the public
4 hearing.
5 MR. WEBB: Move the bill.
6 MR. CLARK: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
8 seconded.
9 Any discussion on the bill?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
12 ballot.
13 (Committee ballot opened.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
15 the vote.
16 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
19 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
23 (Committee ballot closed.)
24 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven years, zero nays.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
Diane M.
Tropia,
43
1 approved -494.
2 -495, we have already done that.
3 -514 is deferred. -515, -516, -517, -518
4 are all deferred.
5 -541, -542, -543, and -544 are all
6 deferred.
7 -545, -546, -547, -548, -549, -550, -551,
8 -552 are all deferred.
9 Top of page 15, committee members. -562,
10 -563, -564, -565, -566 are all second and
11 rereferred.
12 -567 is also second and rereferred.
13 -587. There's an amendment.
14 MR. CLARK: Move the amendment.
15 MR. WEBB: Second.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
17 and seconded.
18 Any discussion on the amendment?
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we hear what the
21 amendment is, please.
22 MS. ELLER: Yes.
23 To the committee, the amendment removes the
24 reference to the agent's name since the property
25 owners are now representing themselves, and also
Diane M.
Tropia,
44
1 it includes references to Philips. The site
2 plan correctly shows perpendicular parking
3 spaces on Palm and Philips, but the body of the
4 bill only said Philips.
5 So the request to amend and rerefer was so
6 that it's in the proper posture when it goes
7 back to committees for a final vote.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion on
9 the amendment?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
12 say aye.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
17 approved the amendment.
18 MR. WEBB: Move to rerefer.
19 MR. CLARK: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
21 to rerefer as amended.
22 Any further discussion on the rereferral?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
25 ballot.
Diane M.
Tropia,
45
1 (Committee ballot opened.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
3 the vote.
4 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
7 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
11 (Committee ballot closed.)
12 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
14 referred -587 as amended to both TEU and LUZ.
15 -588, -589, -604 are all second and
16 rereferred.
17 -605, -606, -607, -608, -609 are second
18 and rereferred.
19 -610, -611, -612, -613, -614 are second
20 and rereferred.
21 -615, -616, -617, -618, -619 are second
22 and rereferred.
23 -620, -621, -622, -623, -624 are second
24 and rereferred.
25 -625, -626, -627, and -628 are second and
Diane M.
Tropia,
46
1 rereferred.
2 -633.
3 MR. WEBB: Move to withdraw.
4 MR. HOLT: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved seconded to
6 withdraw.
7 Any discussion on the withdrawal?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
10 ballot.
11 (Committee ballot opened.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
13 the vote.
14 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
17 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
21 (Committee ballot closed.)
22 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven years, zero nays.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
24 withdrawn -633.
25 Committee members, top of page 22.
Diane M.
Tropia,
47
1 2008-634.
2 MR. WEBB: Move the sub.
3 MR. CLARK: Move the sub.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: The sub's been moved and
5 seconded.
6 Any discussion on the sub?
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
9 say aye.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
14 approved the substitute.
15 MR. WEBB: Move to rerefer.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and --
17 MR. HOLT: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: -- seconded to rerefer as
19 substituted.
20 Any discussion on the rereferral?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
23 ballot.
24 (Committee ballot opened.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
Diane M. Tropia,
48
1 the vote.
2 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. CLARK: (Votes yea.)
5 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
9 (Committee ballot closed.)
10 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
12 substituted and rereferred 2008-634.
13 As far as I can see, I think that's done
14 with the agenda.
15 Is there anybody to speak before this
16 committee?
17 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we're
19 adjourned.
20 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
21 5:45 p.m.)
22 - - -
23
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
49
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 STATE OF
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
5
6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 7th day of August, 2008.
11
12
13
14 Diane M. Tropia
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,