1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE


       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING


       3                         COMMITTEE






       6             Proceedings held on Tuesday, May 6, 2008,


       7   commencing at 5:00 p.m., City Hall, Council Chambers,


       8   1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before Diane M.


       9   Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of


      10   Florida at Large.




      12   PRESENT:


      13        MICHAEL CORRIGAN, Chair.

                CLAY YARBOROUGH, Vice Chair.

      14        RICHARD CLARK, Committee Member.

                E. DENISE LEE, Committee Member.

      15        ART SHAD, Committee Member.

                JACK WEBB, Committee Member.



      17   ALSO PRESENT:


      18        RAY HOLT, City Council Member.

                JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

      19        SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

                FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.

      20        KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.

                SHANNON ELLER, Office of General Counsel.

      21        MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.

                MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.


                                 -  -  -










           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   May 6, 2008                             5:00 p.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good afternoon, everyone.


       5             Let's call to order the Tuesday, May 6th


       6        meeting of the Land Use and Zoning Committee.


       7             I'm Land Use and Zoning Chair, Michael


       8        Corrigan.  My vice chair is Councilmember Clay


       9        Yarborough.  We also have Councilmember Richard


      10        Clark and Councilmember Jack Webb with us.


      11        Councilwoman Mia Jones is excused, and I believe


      12        a couple other council members will be here in a


      13        few minutes.


      14             We're going to start the agenda.  I will


      15        tell you that we're going to move around a


      16        little bit on the agenda tonight.  There's some


      17        items that we need to make sure that we get


      18        taken care of due to transmittal regulations.


      19        We'll try to get to everything in a timely


      20        process, but I may skip something and come back.


      21             Before I start on -- item number 38 on


      22        page 12 is 2008-258, which is repealing part 10


      23        of the zoning code.  Is there anyone here for


      24        that particular bill tonight in the audience?


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Indicating.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  We are not going to take any


       2        action on that bill tonight.  I would be happy


       3        to get somebody from the Planning Department to


       4        get with you and explain the process and the


       5        timing of that process.  There is a public


       6        hearing that will be open tonight, but we will


       7        not take any action.


       8             You're welcome to speak, but your comments


       9        may be more effective at the meeting where we


      10        actually will take action.


      11             So who from the Planning Department wants


      12        to kind of get with them to --


      13             MR. KELLY:  (Inaudible.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Kelly will come down and


      15        explain to you real quick what I'm talking


      16        about.


      17             Okay.  Committee members, let's begin on


      18        page 2 of our agenda.  Items 1, 2, and 3 --


      19        2005-718, 2005-1228, and 2006-24 -- are all


      20        deferred.


      21             Page 3.  Item 4, 2006-220, is deferred;


      22        item 5, 2006-360, is -- I'm going to open that


      23        public hearing.


      24             Seeing no speakers, we're going to close


      25        that public hearing.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             At the request of the applicant, we're


       2        going to do no further action and wait and


       3        readvertise the public hearing in September.


       4        Appreciate it.


       5             Item number 6, 2006-520.


       6             MR. CLARK:  Move to withdraw.


       7             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Second.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and second


       9        to withdraw that bill.


      10             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot and


      11        record the vote.


      12             (Committee ballot opened.)


      13             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      14             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      15             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      16             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      17             (Committee ballot closed.)


      18             MS. LAHMEUR:  Four yeas, zero nays.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      20        withdrawn 2006-520.


      21             Item number 7, 2006-658.  We'll open that


      22        public hearing.


      23             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      24        public hearing until June 3rd.


      25             Top of page 4.  Item 8, 2007-144.  We'll





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        open that public hearing.


       2             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


       3        public hearing to June 17th.


       4             Item 9, 2007-145.  We'll open that public


       5        hearing.


       6             Seeing no speakers, we will continue that


       7        public hearing on June 17th -- until June 17th.


       8             Item 10, 2007-384 is deferred, as well as


       9        item 11 and 12, 2007-581 and 2007-803.  Those


      10        are deferred.


      11             Bottom of page 5, 2007-1046.  We'll open


      12        that public hearing.


      13             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      14        public hearing with no further action.


      15             Item 14, 2007-1061.  We'll open that public


      16        hearing.


      17             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public


      18        hearing.


      19             (Mr. Shad enters the proceedings.)


      20             (Ms. Johnston approaches the podium.)


      21             MS. JOHNSTON:  Mr. Corrigan.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.  I'm sorry, Paige.


      23             MS. JOHNSTON:  I'm here for that item.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  We do have a speaker.


      25             MS. JOHNSTON:  You're moving too fast for





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        me.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  We'll reopen that public


       3        hearing.


       4             Paige Johnston.  Good afternoon.


       5             MS. JOHNSTON:  Paige Johnson, 1301


       6        Riverplace Boulevard, on behalf of --


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Paige, hang on one second.


       8             Let the record reflect that Councilmember


       9        Art Shad has joined us.


      10             Go ahead, Paige.


      11             MS. JOHNSTON:  Paige Johnston, 1301


      12        Riverplace Boulevard, on behalf of the


      13        applicant.


      14             This is a companion rezoning to a land use


      15        amendment which was approved in the fall 2007


      16        series and it permits light industrial uses on


      17        the property.


      18             I am available for questions.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you,


      20        Ms. Johnston.


      21             Seeing no questions for the speaker, we'll


      22        close that public hearing.


      23             We have an amendment.


      24             MR. CLARK:  Move the amendment.


      25             MR. WEBB:  Second.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


       2        amendment.


       3             We'll go to the Planning Department to


       4        explain the amendment.


       5             MR. CROFTS:  The amendment is the


       6        following, Mr. Chairman:


       7             Condition number 1, "The development shall


       8        be subject to the original legal description


       9        dated January 9th, 2008."


      10             Condition number 2, "The development shall


      11        be subject to the revised written description


      12        dated April 30, 2008."


      13             Number 3, "The development shall be subject


      14        to the revised site plan dated March 17, 2008."


      15             Number 4, "The development shall be subject


      16        to the review and approval of the Development


      17        Services Division pursuant to their memorandum


      18        dated February 1, 2008, and the Transportation


      19        Planning Division's memorandum dated


      20        February 19, 2008, or as otherwise approved by


      21        the Planning and Development Department."


      22             Condition number 5, "The developer shall


      23        install a buffer along the northern boundary of


      24        the subject property consistent with the buffer


      25        diagram dated May 2nd, 2008, attached hereto."





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Thank you.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Johnston, do you agree


       3        with those amendments?


       4             MS. JOHNSTON:  Yes, we do.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  She agrees with


       6        the conditions.


       7             Seeing no discussion on the amendment, all


       8        in favor signal by saying aye.


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  All opposed.


      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment carried.


      13             MR. CLARK:  Move the bill as amended.


      14             MR. WEBB:  Second.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


      16        2007-1061 as amended.


      17             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot and


      18        record the vote.


      19             (Committee ballot opened.)


      20             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      21             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      23             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      25             (Committee ballot closed.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       3        approved 2007-1061.


       4             MS. JOHNSTON:  Thank you.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       6             I forgot to mention that Councilmember Ray


       7        Holt is with us this evening.  He joined us to


       8        visit.


       9             So welcome.


      10             We are on page 6, item 15, 2007-1085.


      11        We'll open that public hearing.


      12             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      13        public hearing with no further action.


      14             Item 16, 2007-1086.  Open that public


      15        hearing.


      16             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      17        public hearing.


      18             Let the record reflect also that Council


      19        President Davis has joined us this afternoon.


      20             Welcome, Mr. President.


      21             Item 17, 2007-1121.  Open that public


      22        hearing.


      23             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      24        public hearing.


      25             Item 18, 2007-1125.  We'll open that public





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        hearing.


       2             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


       3        public hearing.


       4             Committee members, items 19, 20, and 21 are


       5        all companion rezonings and I'm going to go


       6        ahead and open all three of those public


       7        hearings at one time.


       8             So the public hearing for 2007-1310, -1311,


       9        and -1312 are all open.


      10             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)


      11             MR. HARDEN:  Paul Harden, 1301 Riverplace


      12        Boulevard.


      13             The Planning Department recommended


      14        approval.  We agree with them.


      15             I don't have anything else.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Harden.


      17             Seeing no speakers -- no questions-- excuse


      18        me -- for Mr. Harden, we'll close that public


      19        hearing.


      20             MR. CLARK:  Move the bill.


      21             MR. WEBB:  Second.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  We have a motion and second


      23        on 2007-1310.


      24             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot and


      25        record the vote.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             (Committee ballot opened.)


       2             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


       6             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       7             (Committee ballot closed.)


       8             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      10        approved -1310.


      11             MR. CLARK:  Move -1311.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and a --


      13             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Second.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- second on 2007-1311.


      15             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot,


      16        record the vote.


      17             (Committee ballot opened.)


      18             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      19             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      20             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      21             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      23             (Committee ballot closed.)


      24             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        approved -1311.


       2             MR. CLARK:  Move -1312.


       3             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Second.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


       5        2007-1312.


       6             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot and


       7        record the vote.


       8             (Committee ballot opened.)


       9             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      10             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      11             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      12             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      14             (Committee ballot closed.)


      15             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      17        approved 2007-1312.


      18             Committee members, we did have a speaker's


      19        card back on 2007-1125 on page 7, so we'll


      20        reopen that public hearing and I'll call up


      21        Jack Morgan on 2007-1125.


      22             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sorry about that.  Good


      24        evening.


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             I'm here because we were approved pending


       2        an agreement letter between Parks and Recreation


       3        and Lil' Nuggets, and we made every effort to


       4        receive that letter.  And there was a mix-up


       5        with the secretary to the Parks and Recreation.


       6        And although we did submit some correspondence


       7        to them, they have not responded back with an


       8        agreement to us.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Can somebody from the


      10        Planning Department get with him to -- or at


      11        least --


      12             Mr. Kelly, you want to comment on that or


      13        not?


      14             MR. KELLY:  I would just say that we did


      15        receive an e-mail from Shorty Robins regarding


      16        the parking situation, and that they were not in


      17        a favorable light to allow for the shared


      18        parking arrangement.  So that's basically why


      19        it's still in this -- it's still sitting.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Do you understand


      21        that, Mr. Morgan?


      22             MR. MORGAN:  Yes.  But when we met with


      23        Ms. Robins, she did indicate that there was a


      24        section of their parking area that they would


      25        allow us to use if we agreed to bring it up to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        standards for parking.  And we do have a letter


       2        stating that we would agree to that, and we were


       3        expecting them to come back with an agreement


       4        allowing us to do that.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  What we'll do is --


       6        we're going to continue this public hearing


       7        anyway, and we'll look into it between now and


       8        the next LUZ meeting and see if we can't get


       9        some resolution and take action at the next


      10        committee meeting.


      11             MR. MORGAN:  Thank you.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.  Appreciate it.


      13             MR. MORGAN:  All right.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further speakers,


      15        that public hearing is closed.


      16             Okay.  Committee members, we are on the top


      17        of -- or actually page 8, item 22, 2007-1350.


      18             We will open that public hearing.


      19             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      20        public hearing with no further action.


      21             Item 23, 2008-23.  We'll open that public


      22        hearing.


      23             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      24        public hearing.


      25             Item 24, 2008-25, is deferred.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Page 9, 2008-27.  We will open that public


       2        hearing.


       3             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue it.


       4             Councilmember Shad.


       5             MR. SHAD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       6             Just wanted to note that Finance did take


       7        action.  Why is it not on here?  Yeah, we moved


       8        this out of Finance for -- in the affirmative.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      10             MR. SHAD:  So I don't know why it's not


      11        marked accordingly.


      12             Do y'all know why the Finance --


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  They brought it to my


      14        attention immediately following the agenda


      15        meeting, and what we talked about doing was --


      16        since we didn't have time to notify about the


      17        public hearing, we'll bring it up next --


      18             MR. SHAD:  Absolutely.  Whatever you'd


      19        like.  This is the final committee that -- it


      20        rests in here.


      21             Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Perfect.  Our goal is to


      23        take it up.  We're actually going to -- our next


      24        meeting is on the 20th, so we'll open and


      25        continue that to May 20th and attempt to take





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        action at that point.


       2             Thank you, Councilmember Shad.


       3             We are now on item 26, 2008-40.  We'll open


       4        that public hearing.


       5             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


       6        public hearing to June 3rd.


       7             Bottom of page 9, 2008-145.  We'll open


       8        that public hearing.


       9             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue it till


      10        June 3rd.


      11             Committee members, we're on page 10,


      12        item 28, 2008-192.  We'll open that public


      13        hearing.


      14             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public


      15        hearing.


      16             We have a substitute.


      17             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Move the sub.


      18             MR. SHAD:  Second.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


      20        substitute.


      21             Any discussion on the substitute?


      22             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  This is actually a bill that


      24        I proposed.  I encourage all the committee


      25        members to take a look at the substitute when it





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        passes this committee, and we will be taking


       2        action in the next several meetings.


       3             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot and


       4        record the vote.


       5             MR. CLARK:  (Inaudible.)


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Oh, I'm sorry.


       7             All in favor of the sub signal by saying


       8        aye.


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  All opposed.


      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  The sub carries.


      13             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Move to rerefer.


      14             MR. SHAD:  Second.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second to


      16        rerefer to LUZ as substituted.


      17             Seeing no speakers, open the ballot, record


      18        the vote.


      19             (Committee ballot opened.)


      20             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      21             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      23             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      25             (Committee ballot closed.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       3        rereferred 2008-192 as substituted.


       4             Thank you for clarifying that for me.


       5             Item 29, 2008-227.  We'll open that public


       6        hearing.


       7             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


       8        public hearing.


       9             2008-228.  Open that public hearing.


      10             Seeing no speakers, we will continue that


      11        public hearing.


      12             We are on page 11, 2008-229.  We'll open


      13        that public hearing.


      14             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public


      15        hearing.


      16             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill.


      17             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on -229.


      19             Seeing no speakers -- or seeing no


      20        questions, open the ballot and the record the


      21        vote.


      22             (Committee ballot opened.)


      23             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      25             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       3             (Committee ballot closed.)


       4             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       6        approved -229.


       7             Item 32, 2008-236.  Open the public


       8        hearing.


       9             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      10        public hearing.


      11             Item 33 and 34 begin a series of companion


      12        bills.  We'll open 2008-240 and -241


      13        simultaneously and we have a couple of speakers.


      14             Paige Johnston.  Actually, Paige Johnston


      15        is here on both bills.


      16             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, those are in


      17        Ms. Lee's district.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Oh, that's right.  I'm


      19        sorry.


      20             MR. CROFTS:  She had requested --


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Councilmember Lee has asked


      22        us to go over these.  I just didn't mark it down


      23        here.  We'll actually come back to those two, so


      24        we'll just leave them open until she arrives.


      25             Somebody remind me to go back there after





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        she gets here.  I would appreciate it.


       2             Item 35 and 36 we're going to pass over for


       3        just a minute and get the rest of these items


       4        and come back to it in just a couple of minutes.


       5             Item 37, 2008-247.  We'll open that public


       6        hearing.


       7             Seeing no speakers -- -247.  I'm sorry.  We


       8        do have a speaker.  Paige Johnston on -247.


       9             (Ms. Johnston approaches the podium.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sorry about that.


      11             MS. JOHNSTON:  No problem.  Sorry to keep


      12        you waiting.


      13             Paige Johnston, 1301 Riverplace Boulevard,


      14        on behalf of the applicant.


      15             This is a companion rezoning to a land use


      16        amendment that was heard before the LUZ two


      17        weeks ago.  It's for the Pecan Park regional


      18        activity center.  It encompasses about 850 acres


      19        of multiuse, and the PUD sets forth the


      20        requirements and development criteria.


      21             We have the support of the CPAC, and we've


      22        also been meeting with Ray Holt and discussed


      23        the project with him, and we would ask for your


      24        support as well.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Seeing no questions, we'll close that


       2        public hearing.


       3             MR. CLARK:  Move the amendment.


       4             MR. WEBB:  Second.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and second


       6        on the amendment to -247.  Go to the Planning


       7        Department.


       8             Mr. Crofts.


       9             MR. CROFTS:  Yes, sir.  The amendment is as


      10        follows:


      11             Condition number 1, "The developer shall be


      12        subject to the original legal description dated


      13        January 25, 2008."


      14             Number 2, "The developer shall be subject


      15        to the revised written description dated


      16        April 23rd, 2008."


      17             Number 3, "The developer shall be subject


      18        to Exhibit J dated April 23rd, 2008."


      19             Number 4, "Transportation improvements


      20        shall be made in accordance with the Development


      21        Services Division memorandum dated March 10,


      22        2008, and the Transportation Planning Division's


      23        memorandum dated March 24, 2008.


      24             The developer shall submit a traffic impact


      25        study to the Planning and Development Department





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        and the Florida Department of Transportation for


       2        review and approval.  Projects identified in


       3        this transportation impact study shall be


       4        completed prior to the issuance of any building


       5        permit."


       6             Continuing, condition number 5, and lastly,


       7        "The developer shall provide two future access


       8        points to the parcel to the east."


       9             Thank you, sir.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      11             Do you agree to those conditions?


      12             MS. JOHNSTON:  Yes, we do.


      13             I believe, however, the last condition was


      14        modified slightly at Planning Commission to


      15        identify it a little more correctly than just


      16        the parcel to the east.  And it may be in the


      17        Planning Commission minutes, but I just want to


      18        clarify that for the record.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Do we have input on


      20        that?


      21             MR. KELLY:  I think it had to do with the


      22        location.


      23             MS. JOHNSTON:  I believe we said something


      24        along the lines of the parcel located at the


      25        northeast quadrant of Pecan Park Road and US-17.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. KELLY:  That's correct.


       2             It specified that it's the property that


       3        parallels the rail line.  It would be at the


       4        northeast corner of Pecan Park Road and abutting


       5        the railway.


       6             MS. JOHNSTON:  And that's correct.  I just


       7        wanted to clarify that for the record.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.  I appreciate the


       9        clarification.


      10             Seeing no discussion, all in favor of the


      11        amendment signal by saying aye.


      12             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All opposed.


      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment carries.


      16             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended.


      17             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


      19        2008-247 as amended.


      20             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot and


      21        record the vote.


      22             (Committee ballot opened.)


      23             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      25             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       3             (Committee ballot closed.)


       4             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       6        approved -247.


       7             MS. JOHNSTON:  Thank you.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Item 38 is the one we


       9        mentioned earlier, 2008-258.  We'll open that


      10        public hearing.


      11             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      12        public hearing.


      13             All the items on page 13 are going to be


      14        deferred.  They are 2008-262, -263, -264, -265


      15        and -266.


      16             On page 14, all the items will be


      17        deferred:  2008-267, -268, -269, and -270.


      18             On page 15, all those items will be


      19        deferred:  2008-271, -272, -273, and -274.


      20             On page 16, all the items will be


      21        deferred:  2008-275, -276, -277, and -278.


      22             On page 17, all the items will be


      23        deferred:  2008-279, -280, -281, and -282.


      24             On page 18, item number 60, 2008-294.


      25        We'll open that public hearing.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             We have one speaker, Staci Rewis.


       2             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good afternoon.


       4             MS. REWIS:  Good afternoon.


       5             Staci Rewis, 245 Riverside Avenue,


       6        Suite 400, Jacksonville, 32202.


       7             This is an NOPC to the Interstate Business


       8        Center DRI to allow the conversion of


       9        multifamily units within the DRI.  We're also


      10        proposing to modify Map H to show the general


      11        location and multifamily units and to extend the


      12        buildout date of the DRI to November 30th,


      13        2015.


      14             The extension is taking advantage of the


      15        automatic three-year extension that was approved


      16        by the 2007 Florida Legislature.


      17             I'm here to answer any questions, as is


      18        Coen Purvis, one of the developers.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't see any questions,


      20        so we'll go ahead and close that public hearing.


      21             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill.


      22             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on -294.


      24             Seeing no discussion on the bill, open the


      25        ballot, record the vote.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             (Committee ballot opened.)


       2             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


       6             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       7             (Committee ballot closed.)


       8             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      10        approved 2008-294.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Item 61, 2008-305.  We will


      12        open that public hearing.


      13             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public


      14        hearing.


      15             MR. WEBB:  Move the amendment.


      16             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


      18        amendment.


      19             Mr. Crofts, do you have input on the


      20        amendment?


      21             MR. CROFTS:  Briefly, the amendment is the


      22        revision of an exhibit that basically alters the


      23        prioritization and funding arrangements for some


      24        transportation improvements that affect the


      25        Pecan Park RAC, as we have identified in the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        north district, and it's simply a text


       2        amendment.


       3             Thank you.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Crofts.


       5             Seeing no discussion on the amendment, all


       6        in favor of the amendment signal by saying aye.


       7             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  All opposed.


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment carries.


      11             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended.


      12             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Second.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


      14        2008-305 as amended.


      15             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot,


      16        record the vote.


      17             (Committee ballot opened.)


      18             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      19             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      20             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      21             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      23             (Committee ballot closed.)


      24             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        approved 2008-305.


       2             Now, the following items will be second and


       3        rereferred:  2008-313, -314, -315, and


       4        2008-343.


       5             Committee members, we're now ready to go


       6        back to page 12, top of the page, 2008-242 and


       7        -243 are companion bills.  We will go ahead and


       8        open the public hearing on both of those bills.


       9             I know we have a number of speakers.  If


      10        you could please make your way down to the


      11        front, I would appreciate it.


      12             Okay.  Let me explain how we're going to


      13        work this tonight.  We're going to take up both


      14        2008-242 and -243.  I will tell you there's been


      15        a great deal of input already on these two


      16        bills.  I appreciate the involvement of the


      17        community and the involvement of the agent on


      18        this.


      19             I'll repeat what we say at City Council,


      20        that we're going to be here tonight, we're going


      21        to do this in a professional manner.  And I --


      22        we look forward to hearing input from everybody


      23        that's concerned, but we're going to do it


      24        professionally.  We're not going to have rounds


      25        of applause or anything else, no matter what the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        applicant says positive and you want to react


       2        with applause, please try to hold back.


       3             But we'll first hear from the applicant,


       4        and then we'll hear from the opposition.  When


       5        you come up, you can speak on both bills.  If


       6        you want to try to separate your comments, you


       7        can, but go ahead and speak on both of them will


       8        be the most efficient way to do it.


       9             I've asked the agent for the applicant to


      10        bring up a board tonight to give you an


      11        indication of the revised site plan that was


      12        proposed at Planning Commission.  I appreciate


      13        his cooperation on that.


      14             The committee members have also been handed


      15        out copies of that map so we have them up here


      16        to reference when you make your comments.


      17             I think we're in good order, and we are


      18        ready to begin.


      19             We will begin with Tom Ingram and continue


      20        from there.


      21             (Mr. Ingram approaches the podium.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Ingram, good evening.


      23             MR. INGRAM:  Good evening.


      24             Tom Ingram, 245 Riverside Avenue,


      25        Suite 400, Jacksonville.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Y'all have seen this before, and most of us


       2        have talked and met.  I've given you an outline


       3        of the project.  I believe when most of us spoke


       4        previously, this project entailed access on


       5        Alta Drive and New Berlin Road, and we had


       6        explained the importance of that Alta Drive


       7        access to the developer that we were working


       8        with, Taylor and Mathis.


       9             In response to concerns raised, we have


      10        deleted the Alta Drive access such that access


      11        is only provided by New Berlin Road.  We are now


      12        proposing a cap of two-and-a-half million square


      13        feet of warehouse distribution uses on this


      14        site.


      15             We have also provided buffer requirements,


      16        and those are explained in the handouts and also


      17        in the April 22nd -- or excuse me, April 23rd


      18        written description, and revised the site plan


      19        that's dated April 22nd.


      20             Basically, as I said before, this is an


      21        area of strategic importance to the city of


      22        Jacksonville, to the economic development of the


      23        port.  It's less than two miles from the Dames


      24        Point terminal.  It's very close to State


      25        Road 9A, which is the future I-295.  It's





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        located between two warehouse distribution


       2        sites, North Point to the north, and Lannie Duke


       3        (phonetic) and the Sears distribution center to


       4        the south.


       5             We have proposed to exceed the minimum


       6        requirements of the industrial situational


       7        compatibility zone.


       8             And I'd be happy to go into that in more


       9        detail if you'd like.  It's --


      10             MS. ELLER:  Tom, I'm sorry to interrupt.


      11             I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Chairman.


      12             Just because I know there's been a lot of


      13        questions and concerns, I just want to correct


      14        that the current site plan is April 21, 2008.


      15             MR. INGRAM:  Thank you.


      16             MS. ELLER:  That's the date.


      17             And I just know that we'd received a lot of


      18        e-mails and comments for the current date, and I


      19        just want everyone in the audience to know that


      20        it is the April 21st site plan.  There was not a


      21        different one submitted on April 22nd.


      22             MR. INGRAM:  That is correct.


      23             MS. ELLER:  Sorry to interrupt.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead, Tom.


      25             MR. INGRAM:  With that, I'd just like to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        reserve my time for rebuttal.


       2             Thank you.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.  Appreciate it.


       4             And I should have mentioned this when we


       5        started.  Mr. Ingram, as the agent, will have


       6        rebuttal opportunity after the speakers speak


       7        so we can have a similar amount of time for both


       8        sides.  So I apologize about not explaining that


       9        in the beginning.


      10             Thank you.


      11             MR. INGRAM:  Thank you.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Tom, did you speak on both


      13        of them?


      14             MR. INGRAM:  Yes, sir.


      15             Just -- and one final thing.  On the land


      16        use amendment, it is currently approved for low


      17        density residential, which allows up to seven


      18        units an acre under the future land use map.


      19             In addition, it is currently zoned for 650


      20        single-family homes with access on Alta Drive


      21        and New Berlin Road with minimum 60-foot lots.


      22             So this -- this is not a proposed


      23        greenfield with AGR land use and zoning being


      24        proposed here.  This is a conversion of an


      25        approved single-family residential project,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        rather intense to this warehouse distribution


       2        center.


       3             We think it's the right use given the


       4        Mitsui terminal that's coming and the expansion


       5        of the port, and we'd ask your support.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Ingram.


       7             The next speaker I have is Jerry Mallot.


       8             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       9             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Mr. Chairman, members of


      10        the commission, thank you for the opportunity to


      11        be here.


      12             We have long worked on this --


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Jerry, give me your name and


      14        address for the record, please.


      15             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Excuse me.


      16             Jerry Mallot, 13128 Biggin Church Road,


      17        Jacksonville.  I'm with the Jacksonville


      18        Regional Chamber, head the economic development


      19        efforts.


      20             And in our work over the years, in fact,


      21        for 10 or 12 years, we have worked on


      22        development of this and properties around it for


      23        industrial development related to port expansion


      24        and growth.


      25             It is probably the best industrial site





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        that relates to business.  It's been part of our


       2        strategic plan for a long period of time, and


       3        I'm very pleased to see the execution coming to


       4        you for action.


       5             We really believe that it is the right


       6        use.  The port is growing in the way we all


       7        hoped that it would come about.  Its property is


       8        close to and nearly adjacent to the port that


       9        make the most sense for use of -- or for


      10        accommodations of that growth and expansion.


      11             And in addition to that, as we tried to do


      12        some analysis on what the impact on the city


      13        would be, it's very profitable for the city


      14        really.  Not only does it create jobs-- and I


      15        know that's been one of the elements -- it also


      16        creates value.


      17             In doing an analysis of a buildout, if it


      18        was used for housing on one side or industrial


      19        on the other, the net value annually to the city


      20        at buildout would be a net positive of about a


      21        little over $2 million difference.  It would be


      22        a negative under housing.  It would be about


      23        1.7 million if it was developed as industrial.


      24             So we -- we're pleased that you're about to


      25        take action.  We urge you to consider the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        relationship of how our port is developed, how


       2        our city is trying to develop, and that this is


       3        very prime property and a great opportunity for


       4        the community.


       5             Thank you, sir.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Jerry.


       7             Our next speaker is Tracie Cox Loftis,


       8        followed by Maryann Vaccaro.


       9             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


      11             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      12             My name is Tracie Loftis.  I live at 2983


      13        Marsh Elder Drive South.


      14             We're here today not in opposition of this


      15        entire plan, just the details of the plan that


      16        could make this application a win/win for not


      17        just the developer, but also the city and the


      18        homeowners.


      19             Each time the issues of Alta access and


      20        protecting the residential corridor have been


      21        brought up for a vote in both CPAC, which denied


      22        the proposal 19 to 4, and in the Planning


      23        Commission, which heard this proposal twice and


      24        then denied it four to one, the developer was


      25        given the message to work harder to make this





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        good for our community.


       2             The application states that the site is


       3        located in an area which is designated on the


       4        industrial preservation map as being an area of


       5        situational compatibility.  There's a problem


       6        with this.


       7             This area is zoned LDR and RR, and only


       8        areas that are zoned industrial were to be


       9        included in this area of compatibility.  This


      10        doesn't meet its own requirements for the


      11        overlay and, therefore, the whole basis for this


      12        application is on faulty ground.


      13             This is not a situation where a group of


      14        homeowners just can't get happy.  When the Alta


      15        access was removed and it was conceded as a bad


      16        idea by the developer, we rejoiced.  He then


      17        went on to rewrite the PUD and take out


      18        everything that was acceptable in it and change


      19        many of the things that made it okay to the


      20        homes that were surrounding this industrial


      21        area.


      22             As homeowners, frankly, we're not sure what


      23        to think.  We were told before that -- based on


      24        the Planning Commission staff recommendations,


      25        that the requested exit to the north was being





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        removed.


       2             What we have been told now is that this


       3        most recent PUD that's before you still includes


       4        this language, so I'll speak to it today.


       5             One of my biggest concerns is the request


       6        with the connecting neighborhood developments to


       7        the north of the property, with just an easy


       8        agreement to North Point and using their


       9        existing roads, Alta residents would be faced


      10        with the developer's deal-breaker issue of


      11        trucks on Alta again, now even further into the


      12        heart of our neighborhoods, traveling almost


      13        twice the distance on Alta to reach 9A.


      14             While we don't argue against east or south


      15        exits, entering from North Point would be


      16        devastating and insulting to the people that


      17        have worked so hard on this.


      18             Other changes just -- basically let's just


      19        not forget that this is a request for change.


      20        This land is currently zoned residential.


      21        Change should only be considered if it protects


      22        the surrounding communities that have already


      23        invested in the area.


      24             Precedents have been set, and the Planning


      25        Commission was very vocal on those precedents





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        and made their recommendations based on those.


       2        Making one offer and then using that offer as an


       3        excuse to remove everything that's acceptable in


       4        this plan is not a genuine compromise.


       5             The developers had months to come up with a


       6        compromise that's acceptable, and then we're


       7        here today with changes that you'll hear from


       8        some of the other speakers which really don't


       9        make it that way.


      10             Thank you for your time.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      12             Our next speaker is Maryann Vaccaro,


      13        followed by Bob McNeill.


      14             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


      16             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      17             My name is Maryann Vaccaro, and I live at


      18        11707 Donato Drive in the Marshwinds


      19        subdivision.


      20             I'm here again today to bring your


      21        attention to the changes brought by the


      22        developer after what appeared to be a concession


      23        to the community.


      24             Although the developer has purportedly


      25        changed his PUD to exclude the Alta access, he





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        has actually, in effect, let the door open that


       2        will enable him to open -- pardon me -- to


       3        obtain access to Alta Drive by including the


       4        option to, quote, add additional access points


       5        and driveway connections along the northern,


       6        southern, and eastern boundaries of the property


       7        through adjacent properties without additional


       8        approvals, end quote.


       9             This provides the developer an opportunity


      10        to purchase land or to lease land use for access


      11        rights, providing the ability to reach Alta


      12        Drive through other means, namely North Point.


      13             We are not opposed to southerly access, for


      14        instance, accessing Faye Road, but we are


      15        adamantly opposed to any additional access


      16        points that will afford access any further north


      17        than Faye Road.


      18             The proposed revised written description


      19        actually gives the developer more than they


      20        originally requested by drastically reducing


      21        buffers along Alta Drive, Aldersgate, and Alta


      22        Circle; increasing the square footage of


      23        warehouse space from 2 million 182 to 2 million 5,


      24        which is an approximately 14 percent increase;


      25        and by reserving the access, the ability to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        access Alta to the north, south, and east by


       2        other means.


       3             So they get everything they want and more:


       4        More square footage of warehouse space and more


       5        land closer to the residents of Alta Circle,


       6        Aldersgate, and Misty Marsh.  And all of this


       7        has been proposed under the pretense of removing


       8        the Alta access.


       9             In addition, wherein in their initial


      10        proposal there was a clear buffer and berm to


      11        hide warehouses from view on Alta, they have


      12        effectively removed these by radically reducing


      13        or in some cases eliminating the buffers in lieu


      14        of setbacks.


      15             If parcel A's land use and subsequent


      16        zoning becomes light industrial, other land uses


      17        that are incompatible with residential -- many


      18        of which are included in the applicant's


      19        permitted uses -- could be considered.


      20             If the land use for parcel A is changed to


      21        light industrial, we ask that a transitional


      22        usage be considered, along with increased


      23        buffers and a maximum building height at


      24        35 feet, et cetera.


      25             However, if the land use changes, a new





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        precedent will be set, essentially opening the


       2        door for other property owners, and then it will


       3        make it difficult for the City to oppose it once


       4        the precedent has been set.  So your decision


       5        impacts much more than the current property in


       6        question.


       7             The developer has repeatedly refused to


       8        make this project a win/win for both parties.


       9        While we have compromised tremendously in


      10        agreeing that 85 percent of the property should


      11        be used as light industrial, we are only asking


      12        that 15 percent remain residential with no


      13        access for truck traffic.


      14             The landowner continues to press that this


      15        is a make or break deal for the City, insisting


      16        that 100 percent of the land must be light


      17        industrial, and giving absolutely no


      18        consideration for the people who will be living


      19        with this project.


      20             The only parties who will benefit from


      21        these ordinances as currently written is the


      22        landowner.  It's all about them getting more


      23        money, if the entire project is light


      24        industrial, and if they have dual access.  It


      25        doesn't make any difference to the port or the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        City, just the landowner's pocketbook.


       2             I'm out of time.  Thank you for your time.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       4             Our next speaker will be Bob McNeill,


       5        followed by Debbie Rudd.


       6             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


       8             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


       9             I'm with -- I'm living in my dream home at


      10        2962 Woodrush Court.


      11             I'm actually not going to speak.  I just


      12        wanted to make sure that two things got to you.


      13        One is an e-mail I sent about 3:30 this


      14        afternoon.  I'm not sure if you guys got that,


      15        but I do have copies for everybody.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  I would go ahead and let us


      17        pass them out, please.


      18             MR. McNEILL:  Okay.  That would be great.


      19        They're also done by names.


      20             And also in the e-mail, I did reference


      21        700 petitioners.  And this is the petition


      22        (indicating).  I'd like to turn that in as well.


      23             Thank you for your time.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.  I appreciate it.


      25             Our next speaker is Debbie Rudd, followed





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        by Nancy Landau.


       2             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.  My name is Debbie


       5        Rudd.  I live at 11721 Marsh Elder Drive in the


       6        Marshwinds subdivision.


       7             The residents of this area have offered


       8        numerous ways that this project could fit with


       9        the character of the neighborhood.  The most


      10        obvious is that they can move the ponds.  Their


      11        response is that it's just not cost effective.


      12        But what they're leaving out is that they've


      13        already made their money on those ponds when


      14        they dug them out and sold the dirt in 2005.


      15             We have offered options that will protect


      16        both noise issues and aesthetics for the


      17        surrounding areas, requesting interior storage


      18        buildings along the residential properties,


      19        simple changes such as a brick exterior to


      20        buildings that will be seen by Alta Drive and


      21        surrounding homes, and matching the height of


      22        any adjacent buildings to the height restriction


      23        of the surrounding homes, which is 35 feet.


      24             Other industrial developments have done


      25        these small types of concessions and proven that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        if smart planning is involved, both industrial


       2        and residential can be good neighbors.


       3             Thank you very much.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       5             Nancy Landau, followed by Bobby Taylor.


       6             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


       8             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


       9             Nancy Landau, 13773 Fish Eagle Drive West.


      10        I live in the Eagles Hammock subdivision on


      11        Yellow Bluff Road.


      12             For the record, I oppose both 2008-242 and


      13        -243.


      14             The community continues to have concerns


      15        with the most recent revisions to this request.


      16        This is not strictly a concern for the


      17        homeowners who live within the immediate radius


      18        of this property.  It's a concern for homeowners


      19        of the entire Alta/Yellow Bluff corridor, as you


      20        can probably tell from the volume of


      21        correspondence many of you have received about


      22        this already.


      23             The homeowners throughout this corridor


      24        acknowledge the value that this property can


      25        bring to Jacksonville and to our port if much of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        it were modified to a light industrial use, not


       2        all.


       3             We continue to try and pursue a win/win


       4        compromise for the community, the City, and the


       5        developer.  We continue to request the developer


       6        work with the City and the community to


       7        establish reasonable compromises for just the


       8        15 percent of the property that is closest to


       9        the Alta Road corridor and adjacent residences.


      10             The property owner's newest proposal did


      11        eliminate their Alta Road access request, but in


      12        turn requested unfettered access via properties


      13        to the north, south, and east.


      14             We have asked for a compromise on just


      15        15 percent of the property closest to the Alta


      16        corridor.  And, instead, they've asked for a


      17        14 percent increase in warehouse space.


      18             Suggested land uses in their request are


      19        very broad and allow for uses such as cell


      20        towers and recycling facilities that are just


      21        encroachment into adjacent low-density


      22        residential and rural uses.


      23             The revised request reduced their proposed


      24        buffer zones to setbacks that meet the absolute


      25        minimums required by law.  They refused the City





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        planner's recommendations to at least adjust the


       2        request to provide a more typical vegetative


       3        buffer outlined by the City.


       4             The applicant's counsel called the City


       5        planner's recommendations aspirational, despite


       6        the fact that other industrial developers have


       7        apparently met these aspirations.


       8             They refuse to consider residents and


       9        Planning Commission suggestions to keep the


      10        15 percent area as a natural retention and


      11        drainage, which would be consistent with much of


      12        the current vegetation of that section of


      13        property.


      14             (Ms. Lee enters the proceedings.)


      15             MS. LANDAU:  The property owners also


      16        refuse suggestions to provide transitional usage


      17        from low density to light office to light


      18        industrial.


      19             Now I ask you to refuse, refuse both


      20        2008-242 and -243.  At this point the landowner


      21        has not demonstrated to the community nor to the


      22        Planning Commission that they have a willingness


      23        to find a non-encroaching transitional land use


      24        that makes long-term sense for the area.


      25             The request, as they stand today, do not





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        advance a reasonable compromise between land


       2        uses, despite the community's and the City's


       3        attempts to find such a compromise.


       4             Please help ensure the property owners hear


       5        the message today by concurring with your


       6        Planning Commission's recommendations to deny


       7        both of these requests.


       8             Send a clear message to the developer and


       9        property owner that it's critical that they work


      10        with the community and with the City to develop


      11        both a land use strategy and a development plan


      12        that provide consistency with existing


      13        communities and land uses and that retains the


      14        residential corridor without encroachment.


      15             Thank you.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      17             Let the record reflect that Councilwoman


      18        Denise Lee has joined us.


      19             Our next speaker is Bobby Taylor, followed


      20        by Scott Crosby.


      21             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      24             My name is Bobby Taylor.  I reside at 9441


      25        Heckscher Drive.  I'm vice chair of the North





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        CPAC, and I'm also chair of the Governmental


       2        Affairs Subcommittee of the North CPAC.


       3             We heard this 2008-242.  We made a 19 to 4


       4        motion opposing the zoning to LI.  And almost


       5        without exception, those who spoke against it


       6        were concerned about the safety issue of


       7        accessing heavy trucks to Alta Drive.


       8             We did not make any motion on -243 as that


       9        is -- would flow from the semiannual review, and


      10        we would consider 2008-243 at a later date at


      11        the CPAC.


      12             And I just wanted to -- we have a letter in


      13        transit to y'all showing that we oppose that,


      14        but I felt it was important that I come and let


      15        you know what the vote was for the CPAC.


      16             Thank you.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Taylor.


      18             Quick question for you.  When was the vote


      19        that you took?  When was that taken?


      20             MR. TAYLOR:  That was taken at our last


      21        CPAC general membership meeting, which I believe


      22        was Wednesday a week ago.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      24        Appreciate it.


      25             Our next speaker is Scott Crosby, followed





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        by Johanna Logue.


       2             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I don't think I made her


       4        too happy.  Sorry.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


       6             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.  Thank you


       7        for having me here this evening.


       8             My name is Scott Crosby.  I live at 11699


       9        Donato Drive, which is part of the Marshwinds


      10        subdivision.


      11             The young ladies there are passing out a


      12        document that outlines several areas of the 2010


      13        Jacksonville comprehensive plan I feel that this


      14        development is in direct inconsistencies with,


      15        so I'll just have that for you to take a look


      16        at.


      17             There are -- the Northside has been a


      18        rapidly expanding area, and it's a direct result


      19        of the hard work of the City Council to


      20        encourage growth into the Northside area.  It


      21        happens to be the fastest growing area in the


      22        city as a percent of population over the last


      23        four years.


      24             This type of a development moving into that


      25        area is going to be quite contrary to the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        residential corridor that has been established


       2        within the Alta/Yellow Bluff corridor.


       3             One of the Planning Commissioners made a


       4        very wise and profound statement when we met


       5        with him and he said that we should be careful


       6        not to approve land use based on the current


       7        market conditions.  One of the reasons that


       8        we're talking about this today is that the


       9        housing market has had a downturn.  It was


      10        approved previously for residential purposes.


      11             We, as we have indicated, are not opposed


      12        to it being rezoned as light industrial, but


      13        what we would like to see is that the


      14        residential corridor be maintained by allowing


      15        the 15 percent of that -- of the property to


      16        remain residential.


      17             There are several neighborhoods that are


      18        one-street or two-street neighborhoods up and


      19        down Yellow Bluff and the Alta Drive access, and


      20        we feel that that would be an ideal use of that


      21        land.


      22             The only compromises actually that have


      23        come from the developer at this point have been


      24        a direct result of defeats that they've received


      25        at the CPAC and Planning Commission, so we don't





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        feel like they've actually come to us to work


       2        with us.  It's been forced upon them by


       3        commissions like yourself.


       4             The situational compatibility overlay, as


       5        indicated previously, this property never should


       6        have been placed in it.  It is currently zoned


       7        low density residential, and it should be


       8        industrial use for being considered for that


       9        area.


      10             Situational compatibility.  It says that it


      11        may be used for certain -- for industrial uses


      12        under certain circumstances.  And I would like


      13        to contend that it does not based on residential


      14        to the north, south, and west of the property.


      15             And, lastly, the current development


      16        actually has the developer filling in wetlands


      17        right on Alta Drive, which we are very much


      18        opposed to, as well as a significant reduction


      19        in the buffers which will pretty much disappear


      20        once Alta is widened, which I believe is


      21        expected within the next several years.


      22             Thank you.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      24             Our next speaker is Johanna Logue, followed


      25        by Lou Vaccaro.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


       4             My name is Johanna Logue.  I live at 13474


       5        Teddington Lane in the Victoria Lakes


       6        subdivision on Yellow Bluff Road.


       7             I want to express my opposition to 2008-242


       8        and -243, as well as my disappointment with the


       9        landowner -- the landowner, Alta Lakes, L.L.C.,


      10        and the proposed development of the property.


      11        This has been an ever-shifting request from


      12        them.


      13             It has been very apparent throughout this


      14        process that Alta Lakes, L.L.C., is not


      15        concerned with the area or the residents, only


      16        with profit.


      17             We have attempted to discuss with the


      18        representing attorney alternatives in this


      19        development, only to be met with resistance.  We


      20        have only a few requests for the developer and


      21        the landowner.  That's to eliminate the access


      22        to Alta Drive.  This would include access to


      23        Alta from any of the neighboring properties.


      24        We'd also like to keep Alta Drive residential by


      25        allowing parcel A as low density residential.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             This would follow the current precedence of


       2        the Pattillo development set in 2001 in which a


       3        portion of that property that borders Alta Drive


       4        is low density residential while the remaining


       5        property is light industrial and office space.


       6             It seems that in providing the concession


       7        to remove any Alta Drive entrance to the


       8        property, the owner has also seen fit to remove


       9        almost all of the visual impediments to his


      10        property that were in the original proposal.


      11        The buffer areas are now gone and have been


      12        replaced by substantially reduced setbacks on


      13        all areas around the property.


      14             They have also indicated that there are


      15        changes that any buffers or visual blocks may or


      16        may not be landscaped.  They've also increased


      17        their warehouse space by 14 percent to encroach


      18        on any setback and they are proposing to build


      19        warehouses at 50 feet in height.  This is


      20        actually higher than the buffer is long and will


      21        be clearly visible from Alta Drive and the


      22        surrounding properties.


      23             The concessions proposed by the developer


      24        would do more harm to our area than good.


      25        Frankly, I wouldn't call this a concession on





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        behalf of the landowner.  It looks like the


       2        residents are receiving the short end of the


       3        stick.


       4             If you allow this zoning, it will ruin the


       5        view of the residential roads with the addition


       6        of 50-foot warehouses right on Alta Drive,


       7        Aldersgate, and Alta Circle.  It will likely


       8        cause the surrounding property values to drop


       9        and cause additional traffic and safety issues


      10        in the area and for our residents.


      11             This owner is concerned with only his


      12        property and not the impacts with the


      13        surrounding area and the residential


      14        properties.  Please do not allow the interest of


      15        the developer to outweigh the needs of the area


      16        and the residents.


      17             In conclusion, I would like to request that


      18        this commission deny the proposition as


      19        written.  It is unacceptable.  By denying, you


      20        will send a clear message to the owner and the


      21        potential developer, and it will require them to


      22        go back to the drawing board and rethink the


      23        development, keeping the neighborhood and the


      24        city in mind.


      25             Thank you very much for your time.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       2             Our final speaker is Lou Vaccaro.


       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


       6             My name is Lou Vaccaro.  I reside at 11707


       7        Donato Drive.  I want to be on record that I'm


       8        opposing 2008-242 and -243.


       9             Ordinarily, light industrial is not


      10        compatible with residential.  The only way it


      11        can be compatible is with tight zoning


      12        restrictions.


      13             Since we don't support the existing PUD


      14        because the parameters have not been fully


      15        defined yet, we cannot support the land use


      16        change at this time, and ask that you deny both


      17        the land use and the zoning change request.


      18             Thank you.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      20             I do not have any further speaker cards.


      21        I'll call Mr. Ingram back up for rebuttal.


      22             (Mr. Ingram approaches the podium.)


      23             MR. INGRAM:  Thank you.


      24             I'll just go quickly through it.


      25             Ms. Loftis had mentioned in our latest PUD





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        application that we had requested the ability to


       2        access properties to the north through the Alta


       3        Lakes project -- or to go through North Point.


       4             Staff found that to be unacceptable.  We


       5        withdrew that.  And you'll see in the staff


       6        conditions that one of its conditions would


       7        limit -- would prevent us from doing that but


       8        would allow us to go to the east or south.  To


       9        the east is New Berlin Road and to the south is


      10        Faye Road.  And we're fine.  We're not fighting


      11        the staff with that.


      12             The next issue had come up about the


      13        reduction in the width of the setback and buffer


      14        on Alta Drive.  We had originally proposed that


      15        in the beginning a 300-foot setback and later


      16        amended to a 200-foot-wide landscaped area as a


      17        concession to the neighborhood to try to


      18        minimize our impacts on Alta, even though we


      19        were going to have access on Alta.


      20             When we deleted the access point on Alta


      21        Drive, we also deleted what is a very large


      22        buffer, but let me tell you a little more about


      23        it.  And this is -- this may be just me, but


      24        people perceive other uses, not from the


      25        helicopter and not from the sky or aerial





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        photographs, but from what they see when they're


       2        driving their cars or what they can see in their


       3        backyards.


       4             The buffer has always been proposed to be


       5        eight feet tall with 85 percent opacity, using a


       6        mixture of vegetation and berms.  An earlier


       7        proposal had a five-foot berm.  Now it's a


       8        four-foot-high berm, but it still has to come up


       9        to eight feet tall with planting, and it's the


      10        same as for Alta, Aldersgate, and Alta Circle.


      11        We have not reduced that proposed buffer from


      12        what we had proposed in the previous revision,


      13        and I do have a schematic to show you for that.


      14             And this should be in the handouts you


      15        received.  But, basically, if Alta Drive's edge


      16        of right-of-way were on the left or in a


      17        residential lot --


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Tom, let me interrupt you.


      19             We have copies of that.  Turn that enough


      20        so the public can see that more than we can see


      21        it.  We can look at our copy.


      22             MR. INGRAM:  (Complies.)


      23             Yes.  So basically on the left-hand side,


      24        there is a -- whether it's a lot line or


      25        right-of-way, then you'd have a vegetative





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        buffer at least 45 feet in width with a


       2        four-foot high berm, with the total height being


       3        eight feet and 85 percentage opacity.


       4             MS. LEE:  Mr. Chairman.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Ingram, hold on one


       6        second.


       7             MS. LEE:  May I interrupt for one minute?


       8             I know the gentleman dropped his easel.


       9        People are standing up.  Can you put it back on


      10        the easel so they can see it?


      11             MR. INGRAM:  Sure.


      12             MS. LEE:  Mr. Chairman, I saw the gentleman


      13        was standing up in the back.


      14             MR. INGRAM:  (Complies.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Tom.


      16             MR. INGRAM:  Yes, no problem.


      17             The other thing I wanted to point out is


      18        that's the bare minimum.  It shows a


      19        50-foot-tall building.  It's unlikely that all


      20        the buildings would be 50 feet tall.  Warehouses


      21        are typically one story.  I've never heard of a


      22        two-story warehouse.  And typically they are


      23        looking for a 32-foot clear space within the


      24        building to store materials.


      25             So the question about the industrial





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        situational compatibly zone -- there had been an


       2        argument that it shouldn't have been designated


       3        that.  The situational compatibility zone, in


       4        fact, imposes more restrictions on industrial


       5        development there and not less.  It would be


       6        better for an industrial developer if a site was


       7        not in the industrial situational compatibility


       8        zone because, with this situational


       9        compatibility zone, you have this 150-foot


      10        setback requirement.


      11             And finally, I mean, I just, you know,


      12        remind you about where the site is located.  And


      13        I've included it in my handouts, but it really


      14        is in very close proximity to the port of


      15        Jacksonville.  It has industrial uses to its


      16        north and south.  They're not going to make any


      17        more land over there.  There's a great deal of


      18        marshes.  The Timucuan Preserve is to the east.


      19        If it is ever built as residential, it is very


      20        unlikely that it would ever be taken back to a


      21        job-producing use.


      22             Again, I appreciate your time.  Thank you.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      24             Seeing no further speakers, we will close


      25        the public hearing.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             I'll go to the district councilmember,


       2        Councilmember Ray Holt.


       3             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair, for


       4        allowing me to come tonight and speak to the


       5        committee.


       6             I guess the first thing I probably need to


       7        do is declare all my ex-partes, which are very


       8        extensive on this one, as you might imagine.


       9             Yeah, we'll be here for a while.


      10             I spoke with Tom Ingram and Logan Holtz


      11        (phonetic) on August 7th of last year, 10/15 of


      12        last year, February 27th of this year, 3/5 of


      13        this year, 3/19 of this year.  And at that same


      14        time, I spoke with a representative from Taylor


      15        and Mathis, spoke with Denise Wallace, Lance


      16        Perallie (phonetic) and other Marshwinds


      17        residents on February 26th.


      18             Met with about a dozen Marshwinds residents


      19        at one of their homes on 3/20 of this year.  Had


      20        a noticed meeting with Council President Davis


      21        and several neighbors on 3/3/08, and the subject


      22        of all those meetings was primarily the Alta


      23        access and the buffering and the traffic counts


      24        and the traffic affects on Alta Drive.


      25             Okay.  Got that out of the way.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MS. LEE:  Did you see Denise Wallace at the


       2        residence?


       3             MR. HOLT:  No.  She is a representative, I


       4        believe, of their homeowners association.  I


       5        think she is with the management organization.


       6             Is that right, guys?


       7             MS. VACCARO:  That's correct.


       8             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  She's with their


       9        management company.  Yeah, I believe she used to


      10        be with the City.


      11             Okay.  Well, I think most people will


      12        remember that early on in the process on this


      13        land use change I opposed it on the basis of the


      14        Alta access, and that we'd be dealing with in


      15        the rezoning.


      16             And the entrance would have caused too much


      17        noise, traffic backups, and would have been a


      18        danger to all the school children that have


      19        school bus stops along there.  It would have


      20        also made a traffic light necessary at that


      21        intersection of Misty Marsh.


      22             And this is a very important road, Alta


      23        Drive, for not only Marshwinds, but there are a


      24        lot of other neighborhoods all up and down Alta


      25        and Yellow Bluff, that whole corridor, probably





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        5,000 homes.  On a daily basis, they have people


       2        coming down that road to access 9A, so it's very


       3        important.


       4             But we now know that, in the rezoning, it


       5        will not include an Alta access.  So there won't


       6        be noisy trucks traveling up and down Alta from


       7        this development.


       8             Now, I've heard several folks mention


       9        tonight setting aside parcel A as a residential


      10        buffer.  I want to be really clear about this.


      11        I'm 100 percent against that.  And the reason


      12        is, if there are homes in there, then they will


      13        be forced to drive in and out of the light


      14        industrial park every day to get to their home.


      15        They would have a worse situation than the


      16        Marshwinds folks would have with the access to


      17        Alta because they would have no buffer.  They


      18        would be the buffer.


      19             It don't really seem -- it doesn't seem


      20        fair to create a neighborhood to be your buffer


      21        so that you don't have to hear it, but they do.


      22        So . . .


      23             I have to look at this, being the district


      24        councilmember, from the standpoint of what is


      25        best for my community, the whole community.  And





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        we have two choices here:  a light industrial


       2        project, which is proposed, or the previous


       3        rezoning, which is 650 homes -- single-family


       4        homes.


       5             And what I'm going to do is I'm going to go


       6        through several issues and give my thoughts on


       7        each one of those and kind of compare the light


       8        industrial to the 650-home project that is


       9        currently rezoned -- that it's currently zoned


      10        for.


      11             First traffic.  With the proposal that we


      12        have here, there's no Alta access, so there


      13        wouldn't be no -- there would be no added


      14        traffic to Alta, and there would be no


      15        intersection at Misty Marsh.


      16             With the residential project that it is


      17        currently zoned for, there would be a traffic


      18        light at Misty Marsh, and that would stop


      19        traffic from all those neighborhoods that are


      20        coming down, back and forth every day, up and


      21        down Alta and Yellow Bluff, not to mention the


      22        1,200 cars or so that are going to be coming out


      23        of those 650 homes onto Alta every day,


      24        primarily at rush hour time.


      25             (Mr. Webb exits the proceedings.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  Next is property values.


       2        There's a very valid concern that people have


       3        mentioned.  And I think that if the Alta access


       4        was still there, it would have an impact, but


       5        it's not.


       6             With the proposed buffering, I don't think


       7        you'll see the buildings.  I'm looking at the --


       8        this exhibit here.  And I'm looking at a map of


       9        the area, GIS map, and it is wooded all along


      10        Alta Drive in that area.  So what you're looking


      11        at on this exhibit shows trees, and there are


      12        trees all along there.


      13             So if you kind of imagine the road over


      14        here on the opposite side of those trees, you


      15        would -- and how you would have to look from a


      16        car or from your home, you would have to look


      17        over those trees to possibly see the building.


      18             But at any rate, they're required to


      19        conceal it by 85 percent.  So that's a definite,


      20        that it would be concealed by at least


      21        85 percent.  I don't think you'd see it at all.


      22             The noise from the trucks that are already


      23        at their destination on parcel A I think would


      24        be minimal.  I'm sure that some of the people on


      25        Aldersgate would, from time to time, hear the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        trucks when they back up.  They have the little


       2        alarms that let you know they're backing up.


       3        I'm sure they'll hear that.  But they won't be


       4        running loud and fast because they're at their


       5        destination.  They're in a parking lot.  So --


       6             I say all that to say that I don't think


       7        there's going to be an effect on property


       8        values.


       9             I know some of the folks in the


      10        neighborhood have spoken to real estate agents


      11        because I spoke to some of the same real estate


      12        agents and what I was told that if you really


      13        wanted to protect your property values, you'd do


      14        whatever you could to stop that residential


      15        neighborhood from coming in because it's zoned


      16        for 650 homes on lots of 50 to 70 feet and there


      17        are no requirements for a minimum square


      18        footage.  They could be 12-, 1,500-square-foot


      19        homes.  There are no requirements for


      20        construction materials.  They could be made out


      21        of vinyl siding, thin vinyl siding.  And that's


      22        honestly where the market is going right now.


      23             What's going to be built there would not be


      24        another Marshwinds.  Marshwinds has half a


      25        million dollar homes and up.  I'm being frank





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        here.  It would be lower cost homes that would,


       2        in the short-term, severely depress the value of


       3        the folks in Marshwinds.  And in the long-term,


       4        it would provide a substantial decrease in the


       5        valve of their homes.  And that's what I was


       6        told by real estate agents.


       7             Add to that the fact that over 1,000


       8        children would be added to our local schools,


       9        which are, all three, over capacity.  It would


      10        stress police and fire services in the area.


      11             I'm hard-pressed to find a negative on


      12        changing from those 650 homes to light


      13        industrial.  And I know this puts me at


      14        loggerheads with a lot of my constituents, and


      15        I'll have to deal with that fact, but I've got


      16        to do what I feel like is right for the


      17        neighborhood, and that includes all the people


      18        up and down Yellow Bluff, all those people in


      19        Oceanway that use that road, Alta Drive.


      20             So I'm asking the committee to support the


      21        land use change, and I'm asking you to support


      22        the rezoning with the April 21st site plan, the


      23        April 23rd written description, and the Planning


      24        Department's condition of eliminating the


      25        northern access, which would ultimately have





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        given them access to Alta.  I would like that


       2        eliminated so that there's no possibility that


       3        the traffic is going to access Alta at all.


       4             And with the requirements of the 45-foot


       5        wooded buffer with a 4-foot berm, with four feet


       6        of landscaping on top of that, and a maximum


       7        height of 50 feet on parcel A.


       8             I appreciate your giving me the time and


       9        considering my thoughts on this.


      10             Thank you.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Councilmember


      12        Holt.


      13             Quick question for you.  When you talk


      14        about the north access, was the thought there


      15        that potentially trucks would go north and turn


      16        left and come back to Alta?  Is that the


      17        reason --


      18             MR. HOLT:  Correct.


      19             Just north of this is another industrial


      20        park called North Point.  And I think the


      21        thought pattern on the part of the developer was


      22        to go up there, work out a deal with Pattillo


      23        that they could access there and then go over to


      24        Alta, but we want that eliminated.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Because the Pattillo project





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        can already access Alta?


       2             MR. HOLT:  Correct.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's the only truck


       4        traffic?


       5             MR. HOLT:  Correct.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.  I


       7        appreciate you clarifying that.


       8             Okay.  We are -- we are going to take up


       9        2008-242, which is the land use amendment


      10        first.  We've had the public hearing.  There


      11        is -- the agenda may be marked --


      12             MR. CLARK:  Move the bill.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion.


      14             Do we have a second?


      15             MR. SHAD:  Second.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and a second on


      17        -242.


      18             Does anybody need to speak on it?


      19             MR. SHAD:  I want to say something.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Councilmember Shad.


      21             MR. SHAD:  Thank you.


      22             To the Planning Department or Councilmember


      23        Holt, through the Chair, just on the part that


      24        the -- some of residences considered for


      25        residential.  You know, that could be accessed





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        without -- you know, you could have a divider


       2        between that and the industrial park.  They


       3        certainly could access that from Alta, the


       4        residential there, right?  And then the rest of


       5        the park could be accessed.


       6             Anyway, I just -- it seems like there would


       7        certainly be a way for the residential if that


       8        part -- sounds like you don't want it, but if


       9        that part was to stay residential, certainly


      10        seems like you could access with Alta -- through


      11        Alta without the rest of the park having access


      12        to Alta.


      13             So I just threw that out there for


      14        discussion.  I mean, I think --


      15             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Applause.)


      16             MR. SHAD:  I don't think that -- no, we


      17        don't do that here.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  No applause, please.


      19             MR. SHAD:  Yeah.


      20             But I'm going to support you in this, and


      21        it sounds like a great compromise.  It sounds


      22        like you worked really long and hard to get


      23        this.  So I commend you on your work, and I look


      24        forward to supporting you on this.


      25             Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Councilmember Holt, you want


       2        to respond to that?


       3             MR. HOLT:  I appreciate your support on


       4        it.  One of the main points for me -- the only


       5        point for me was to eliminate that Alta access.


       6        And, again, the -- any additional strain on that


       7        road is just killing me, so I'm trying to


       8        eliminate the strain on that road.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let me ask a question on


      10        that, if I could, Councilman Holt.  When you say


      11        "eliminate the strain on that road," what is


      12        going to be the impact on the road during the


      13        construction of this project?  I mean, is it --


      14        I don't do construction, so I don't know what


      15        that is.


      16             MR. HOLT:  Well, they wouldn't be accessing


      17        from Alta at all in order to construct the


      18        project.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      20             Councilmember Lee.


      21             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      22             I came in while this discussion was going


      23        on, and I have a couple of questions real


      24        quick.


      25             Obviously, there was a compromise reached.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        I would like to know who was involved in the


       2        compromise.  Was there a representative from the


       3        community, the president of the association?


       4        And is there an existing -- I think there is a


       5        community organization, and I would like to know


       6        who was involved in the compromise.


       7             And I can ask that to Mr. Holt.


       8             MR. HOLT:  Thank you.


       9             Through the Chair to Ms. Lee, there were


      10        several folks from Marshwinds and one gentleman


      11        from Aldersgate, I believe, Bob McNeill, and the


      12        Vaccaros were involved in that.  And I know that


      13        they just spoke against it, so I don't really


      14        feel like they felt like it was a complete


      15        compromise, but --


      16             MS. LEE:  Well, my question is --


      17             MR. HOLT:  There was movement, if that's


      18        what you're asking.


      19             MS. LEE:  Excuse me.  I can't hear you.


      20             MR. HOLT:  There was a movement on the part


      21        of -- eliminating the Alta access was the


      22        movement on the part of the developers.  So --


      23             MS. LEE:  Well, during the negotiations of


      24        the compromise, did anybody in the community


      25        agree with it, with the access?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             I think the original argument of the


       2        neighborhood was that they did not want the


       3        project to be accessed from Alta Road.


       4             MR. HOLT:  Right.


       5             MS. LEE:  This is what I heard in my


       6        office, all of the complaints basically.


       7             Was that the main concern of the


       8        neighbors?


       9             MR. HOLT:  I think that was the main


      10        concern, but I think they still have --


      11             MS. LEE:  You've got to speak up.


      12             MR. HOLT:  I think that was the main


      13        concern.  It was certainly for me.  But I would


      14        have to let them speak for what concerns they


      15        still have.  But I --


      16             MS. LEE:  Well, let me ask you this:


      17        During the compromise -- through the Chair to


      18        Mr. Holt, what were the concerns raised when you


      19        reached a compromise?  Was there a vote, or that


      20        was just something that you negotiated with the


      21        developers?


      22             MR. HOLT:  Well, I think what I did was to


      23        go back to the developers and said, "Look, the


      24        neighbors are willing to work with you to get


      25        behind you on this, but we've got to have some





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        movement from you.  We are dead set against you


       2        accessing Alta."  And so we just kind of held


       3        the line.


       4             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Well -- I'm sorry,


       5        Mr. Holt.  Through the Chair to Mr. Holt, no, my


       6        question was, when this compromise was reached,


       7        were you-all in a room or a library or


       8        something?  How was the compromise reached?


       9             MR. HOLT:  I think shortly after it was


      10        defeated in CPAC, the developers made the call


      11        and called me up and said, "After careful


      12        consideration, we've decided to eliminate the


      13        Alta access."


      14             MS. LEE:  Okay.  And so it was more or less


      15        a verbal thing because that's why I asked who


      16        was in the negotiation.  And you said there were


      17        people from neighborhood, but that is not true;


      18        am I correct?


      19             MR. HOLT:  No, they didn't -- we weren't


      20        all in a room when he announced that.  He told


      21        me, and then I told the neighbors that they had


      22        eliminated the Alta access.


      23             MS. LEE:  And what was the response to you


      24        from the neighbors when you told them that the


      25        access had been eliminated?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  Well, they were excited about


       2        that.  But several of them still have concerns


       3        about buffering, as you just heard.


       4             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Again, would you reiterate


       5        what the remaining concern is?


       6             You resolved one concern, and that was the


       7        access, so that we don't have to worry about


       8        that traffic coming out Alta now; am I correct?


       9             MR. HOLT:  Right.


      10             MS. LEE:  Okay.  So then what was the other


      11        concern that the neighbors had?


      12             MR. HOLT:  The other concern was that they


      13        didn't want to see it or hear it, and so the


      14        buffering was the issue there.  They wanted more


      15        buffering to keep it concealed and out of


      16        earshot.


      17             MS. LEE:  And what was the recommendation


      18        for the buffering?  What was the suggestion?


      19        What was going to be used to buffer?


      20             MR. HOLT:  Well, originally the buffering


      21        was larger when they had an access point there,


      22        but now it is 45 feet of wooded buffering on all


      23        sides.


      24             MS. LEE:  What other options could you use


      25        to buffer it since that's a concern of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        neighbors?  What other options were to be used


       2        to buffer, or were there any at all?


       3             MR. HOLT:  I don't think anything else was


       4        put out there as an option other than the wooded


       5        buffer with a berm and landscaping on top, eight


       6        feet tall.


       7             MS. LEE:  Is that going to be done?


       8             MR. HOLT:  Yes, that will be done.


       9             That will be part of this -- as part of


      10        this written description, that in all directions


      11        there will be a four-foot berm with four feet of


      12        landscaping on top of that.  And they would use


      13        crape myrtles and saw palmettos as a kind of


      14        local --


      15             MS. LEE:  And that's actually 45 feet from


      16        Alta Road?


      17             MR. HOLT:  Right.  Well, it's 45 feet


      18        within their property -- 45 feet of their


      19        property.  So there's another -- I don't know


      20        how many feet from their property line to the


      21        road.


      22             MS. LEE:  So did they recommend more than


      23        45 feet?  That's just what I'm trying to see


      24        where was it different.  If they asked you for


      25        more buffer, what were they asking for?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  I really don't know what -- if


       2        they have all come together to have an amount


       3        that they want.


       4             MS. LEE:  You didn't think you needed to


       5        take that --


       6             MR. HOLT:  If you wanted to ask one of


       7        these people with their hands raised, they might


       8        answer.


       9             MS. LEE:  Just a moment, please.


      10             Well, Mr. Holt, I guess I'm asking you


      11        these questions because you made the compromise,


      12        which is fine.  But my concern is, did you take


      13        into consideration their request for more


      14        buffering?  And you would know that answer.


      15             MR. HOLT:  Right.


      16             MS. LEE:  Did you?


      17             MR. HOLT:  Well, I got several different


      18        answers from several different people.  So I


      19        didn't have a consensus from anybody, from all


      20        the folks on what they wanted on buffering.


      21        Some people are saying that they want this


      22        parcel A area to be a residential neighborhood


      23        and basically a giant buffer neighborhood, and


      24        some people are saying that they want more of a


      25        wooded buffer.  So I didn't have a consensus





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        that I could go to --


       2             MS. LEE:  And the reason you were opposed


       3        to the residential neighborhood because then


       4        that would mean that what they don't want


       5        somebody else would be getting?


       6             MR. HOLT:  Exactly.


       7             MS. LEE:  I think that's what I


       8        understood.


       9             So, in other words, you struck out that.


      10        Did you share that with the people, why you were


      11        opposed to it before today?


      12             MR. HOLT:  No.  I haven't spoken with them


      13        about that today because -- until today.


      14             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Then the second -- the


      15        second recommendation was what relative to --


      16        that you looked at that, could have given some


      17        relief to that thought if it were possible?  You


      18        just settled with 45 feet?  You did not look at


      19        anything else?


      20             MR. HOLT:  I'm sorry?


      21             Well, it's 150 of a building setback.  But


      22        the actual wooded buffer is 45 feet, and I was


      23        satisfied with that.


      24             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Through the Chair real


      25        quick to the lady out in the audience.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Who's the spokesperson for the group?


       2             (Ms. Loftis approaches the podium.)


       3             MS. LEE:  Are you the president of the


       4        community association?


       5             MS. LOFTIS:  No.  I'm on the board.


       6             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We've elected her to


       8        speak.


       9             MS. LOFTIS:  They've asked me to speak.


      10             The reason we've not been able to get a


      11        consensus to Mr. Holt is we can't get a message


      12        to Mr. Holt.  Since the Planning Commission


      13        meeting, we've tried numerous times to reach


      14        him, and he shared that he's not speaking to


      15        anybody about the issue.


      16             The original buffers was a 300-foot buffer


      17        from Alta with 200 feet of landscape.  Our


      18        concern is -- even the Planning Commission staff


      19        gave them and said you shouldn't have anything


      20        less than 75 feet.  They gave them two buffers


      21        to choose from.  They said 75 feet or 50 feet,


      22        heavily wooded.  And they said that that's


      23        what's being approved on all the other


      24        industrial requests that are coming through


      25        Planning, that they're trying to get a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        consistent buffer between all the different


       2        plans that are going through, and they made the


       3        recommendation that, at a minimum, this should


       4        be a 75-foot buffer to protect the residents.


       5             MS. LEE:  Is that what the Planning


       6        Department recommended?


       7             MS. LOFTIS:  Yes.  I have their pictures.


       8             The Planning Department said, before it was


       9        denied, the staff had requested two things.  One


      10        was to eliminate the north exit, and the other


      11        was they did not feel that their 45-foot buffer


      12        was adequate, and gave them two other


      13        recommendations and said that they should accept


      14        one of these.


      15             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Let me --


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Lee, before you


      17        continue, for the record, that's -- Tracie


      18        Loftis is speaking on behalf of the


      19        neighborhood.


      20             MS. LOFTIS:  Yes.


      21             MS. LEE:  I'm sorry.  Miss who?  Loftis?


      22             MS. LOFTIS:  Loftis, yes, ma'am.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Loftis.


      24             MS. LEE:  L-o-f-t-u-s maybe?


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  -t-i-s.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MS. LOFTIS:  -i-s.


       2             MS. LEE:  -t-i-s.  Okay.


       3             Well, I would have to ask Mr. Holt -- well,


       4        did you state, through the Chair, to any


       5        residents that you were not willing to talk to


       6        anybody anymore; is that true?


       7             MR. HOLT:  No.  Probably what was said was


       8        that I can't -- I can't make a commitment


       9        because this is a quasi-judicial matter, so I


      10        can't come out and say whether I'm for or


      11        against anything.


      12             MS. LEE:  Well, through the Chair to legal,


      13        aren't City Councilmembers allowed to talk with


      14        their constituents, be ye quasi-judicial or


      15        not?  I mean, aren't you allowed to talk to


      16        people?


      17             MS. ELLER:  Yes, you are.  However, it's my


      18        understanding that Mr. Holt believes the


      19        communication may have been misunderstood in


      20        that he was communicating that he can't take a


      21        position on the quasi-judicial, which is a


      22        standard recommendation.


      23             With any quasi-judicial bill, you're not


      24        permitted to take a position, whether you


      25        support it or you don't, until you have all the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        evidence before you, but it doesn't permit you


       2        from communicating that or listening to their


       3        concerns.


       4             MR. HOLT:  Right.  And as you've heard --


       5             MS. LEE:  Did you communicate that to them


       6        personally, what your feelings were?


       7             MR. HOLT:  Right.  And that was exactly


       8        what Shannon had just said.  That was what my


       9        communication with them was.


      10             MS. LEE:  Did you communicate that to their


      11        representative?


      12             Mr. Holt, let me say this:  I know this is


      13        your district and, obviously, this is a very


      14        somewhat contentious issue, as it has been, and


      15        it's been very controversial.  It is not my


      16        district, but, you know, I am on this committee


      17        and I, as a district councilmember, have not


      18        always received the full support of my


      19        constituents, you know.  So I've been in the


      20        position you've been in relative to that.


      21             I guess my concern is -- I just want to


      22        make sure that people have been given adequate


      23        information and an opportunity to express


      24        themselves, and that's why I'm just asking you


      25        these questions.  I want to make my conscience





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        clear when I take a vote, that things have been


       2        fairly, you know, done.


       3             MR. HOLT:  Right.  I understand.


       4             MS. LEE:  And that's why I'm questioning


       5        it.


       6             MR. HOLT:  Right.  I understand.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Lee, Councilman Holt --


       8             MR. HOLT:  And you weren't here at the


       9        time, but --


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  If I can interrupt you.


      11             We need to kind of get back on the focus.


      12        We're on the land use portion of this.


      13             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Well --


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  When we get into buffers and


      15        all -- that's kind of on the --


      16             MR. HOLT:  Okay.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's on the --


      18             MS. LEE:  On the zoning.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN: -- on the zoning.  So we need


      20        to focus on --


      21             MS. LEE:  Well --


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  What we're really


      23        considering now is should this area go from low


      24        density residential and RR to LI.  That's what


      25        really we're debating at this point.  So if we





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        could stay on that.


       2             MS. LEE:  Well --


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  And when we get to -243, we


       4        can talk about the other stuff.


       5             MS. LEE:  Mr. Chairman, I do appreciate you


       6        bringing that to my attention, but they do go


       7        together.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  I know they go together.


       9             MS. LEE:  I mean, they really do go


      10        together.


      11             MS. LOFTIS:  However, if the land use is


      12        approved without a rezoning that is well-defined


      13        and has everything in place -- the land use


      14        should have a plan behind it that is going to be


      15        acceptable to the residential area beside it.


      16             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Hold it one minute.


      17             Through the Chair to Mr. Holt -- and I'm


      18        staying on it.  I'm going to try to stay on


      19        this.  I don't think I'm getting off of it.


      20             Mr. Holt, through the Chair, Ms. Loftis has


      21        said that the Planning Department recommended


      22        75 feet.


      23             MR. HOLT:  Right.


      24             MS. LEE:  Why are you opposed to 75 feet?


      25             MR. HOLT:  I'm not opposed to it.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MS. LEE:  Oh, you're not?


       2             MR. HOLT:  No, I'm not opposed to more


       3        buffering, but I feel like I'm satisfied with


       4        45 feet.  So if they want to -- if they're


       5        wanting to move -- if they are willing to move


       6        to 75 feet to satisfy the Planning Department,


       7        I'm fully behind it.


       8             MS. LEE:  No.  I'm asking you as a district


       9        councilperson, were you opposed to the 75 feet


      10        that the young Ms. Loftis is saying?


      11             MR. HOLT:  No, I'm not opposed to a 75-foot


      12        buffer.


      13             MS. LEE:  You're not?


      14             MR. HOLT:  But I guess to answer your


      15        question, if this were to come to council today


      16        with a 45-foot buffer, I'd vote for it because I


      17        feel like that's enough.  But if they want to


      18        move to 75, even better.


      19             MS. LEE:  Mr. Holt, I think the bottom line


      20        is everybody is looking for your leadership, and


      21        I'm just curious as to if that's something you


      22        want to do.  You know, yes or no, would you


      23        entertain making it 75?  Or does that in some


      24        kind of way put some prohibition to the


      25        developer?  Does that in some kind of way





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        stagnate the developer or something?


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Lee, I'd like to get the


       3        developer's response to that, if I could,


       4        please.


       5             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       6             MR. HOLT:  That would the best way to


       7        answer.


       8             MS. LEE:  Because Mr. Holt -- Mr. Chairman,


       9        I just want to make sure I understand Mr. Holt.


      10        He said he's not opposed to it, but he did not


      11        make a recommendation, you know, to do the


      12        75 feet inasmuch as it was recommended.


      13             So if that's the case, I was just trying to


      14        find out why he didn't do it.  And the only


      15        thing I can assume is that he has agreed with


      16        the developer to let them do what it is they


      17        want to do.  And I want to make sure I'm not


      18        assuming.


      19             So that's why I asked, Ray.  That's the


      20        only reason.


      21             MR. HOLT:  Right.  Well, you'll have to ask


      22        them whether they're willing to move on it.  I


      23        just --


      24             MS. LEE:  Well, they're not going to go


      25        to 75.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  They'd have to agree to it.


       2             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       3             Through the Chair, what do you mean?


       4             MS. ELLER:  If we impose a condition upon a


       5        PUD that the applicant doesn't consent to,


       6        because it's their property --


       7             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       8             MS. ELLER:  -- and we pass it, they can


       9        turn around and sue us for -- and get it


      10        overturned.  So we -- they have -- if we're


      11        going to impose conditions upon them, they have


      12        to agree.


      13             If we can't come to an agreement, then you


      14        can either vote it down or defer it, but you


      15        can't -- you can't put restrictions on


      16        somebody's dirt without their consent.  So you


      17        either -- so you either --


      18             MS. LEE:  Well, that's called downzoning,


      19        isn't it?


      20             MS. ELLER:  No.


      21             MS. LEE:  The property?


      22             MS. ELLER:  You either -- if there are --


      23        in a PUD, if you cannot agree upon the specific


      24        conditions with the developer, then your option


      25        is to not approve it, instead of approving it





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        with conditions that they don't consent to


       2        because then they'll just go to court and get it


       3        overturned because they didn't consent.


       4             MS. LEE:  Does that happen frequently?


       5             MS. ELLER:  Typically what happens is, when


       6        you get to that stalemate point, they'll defer


       7        it and try to work it out because they don't


       8        want to go through that whole process to undo


       9        something that they didn't agree to.  And they


      10        also don't want to risk getting it voted down,


      11        so they usually defer it to work it out.


      12             MS. LEE:  Legal, inasmuch as the Planning


      13        Department made that recommendation, was


      14        consideration given to the 75 feet?  Was there


      15        discussion between the developer and the


      16        Planning Department or legal or somebody to


      17        increase it to 75 feet?  Was that consideration


      18        even discussed?


      19             I would like to think that somebody talked


      20        about it.


      21             MS. ELLER:  I believe that the Planning


      22        Department made the recommendation of the


      23        75 feet or 50 feet as one of the options, and


      24        then the developer did not agree and wanted to


      25        move forward with their proposal of the 45-foot





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        wooded area with the 150-foot setbacks to the


       2        buildings.


       3             So I believe it's a Planning Department


       4        recommendation and a developer who has a


       5        different position and a district council member


       6        who has explained that he is satisfied with the


       7        45-foot buffer that the applicant has proposed.


       8             MS. LEE:  Well, I understand that he said


       9        he was satisfied, but the people weren't talked


      10        to, and that's what's disturbing to me, that --


      11        whether you're for or against it, I just


      12        don't -- you know.


      13             Let me hear --


      14             (Mr. Ingram approaches the podium.)


      15             MR. INGRAM:  Tom Ingram --


      16             MS. LEE:  Hey, how are you doing?


      17             MR. INGRAM:  Good, good.


      18             Well, I mean, I could be better, but this


      19        is what I do.  So --


      20             MS. LEE:  What's your name?


      21             MR. INGRAM:  I'm Tom Ingram.


      22             And I just -- I'd suggest this project and


      23        proposal has been vetted thoroughly.


      24             MS. LEE:  That's not my question.  My


      25        question is why are you opposed to the 75 feet?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. INGRAM:  It goes to the ability to


       2        develop the land.  We have proposed 85 percent


       3        opacity, an 8-foot-high screen, 45-feet wide, at


       4        least 150 feet between any building and any


       5        residential property line, and at least 150 feet


       6        between any truck court and any residential


       7        property line.


       8             A truck court is where the semi trucks


       9        maneuver, so that would be 150 feet away.  So


      10        what we're really asking for is can we have --


      11        after that 45 feet, can we have a parking area


      12        for the employees, can we have an access road


      13        that's internal to the site in that area.


      14             But the buildings are still pretty far


      15        back, and that's one of the drawings I showed


      16        you.


      17             So the question is, can we get enough of --


      18        you know, can we use vegetation to obscure the


      19        view of the residents and those who are driving


      20        on Alta Drive of the buildings in 45 feet,


      21        8 feet tall, 85 percent opaque.


      22             We believe that's adequate because we


      23        are -- you know, we're also so many feet tall


      24        and we're going to be looking this way


      25        (indicating).  We're not going to be looking





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        down from a helicopter.  So can you obscure the


       2        view?  And I think you can.


       3             If you drive out Alta Drive to Marshwinds


       4        today, you'll see that there is a 15-foot buffer


       5        on the residents that are north of us that have


       6        lots that back up to Alta.  And in that 15-foot


       7        buffer, it's very heavily vegetated.  Obviously,


       8        those residents found that to be acceptable to


       9        them when they moved into those lots.


      10             MS. LEE:  Yeah, but they weren't -- nobody


      11        was getting ready to build any warehouses


      12        either.


      13             MR. INGRAM:  The area is north of us, the


      14        area I'm referring to.


      15             MS. LEE:  Yeah.


      16             MR. INGRAM:  So we're trying to, you know,


      17        realize some --


      18             MS. LEE:  Okay.


      19             MR. INGRAM:  -- economic return out of


      20        this, obviously.  You know, we're capitalists,


      21        and so it's about how much you can build in the


      22        site.


      23             MS. LEE:  So the final question is, are you


      24        saying that the reason you are opposed to the


      25        75 feet is because you won't be able to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        facilitate a parking lot, or you could


       2        facilitate a parking lot, but you would prefer


       3        not to have to go back any further?


       4             MR. INGRAM:  Well, it's a question of --


       5        yeah, if you have 75 feet in vegetative buffer,


       6        that's 30 feet less that you could do in a


       7        parking area or accessway and so forth.


       8             MS. LEE:  Okay.  But if you did do the


       9        75 feet, you still could build a parking lot; am


      10        I correct?


      11             MR. INGRAM:  It all goes to the ability to


      12        build on one's property, about how many feet of


      13        buffer.  You know, it's unusable land, this


      14        landscape buffer.


      15             So we have separated the -- there's a


      16        setback and a buffer.  We've always proposed


      17        150 feet between the nearest building and the


      18        residential property lines.  That's a long


      19        distance.


      20             MS. LEE:  Okay.  I'm going to try one last


      21        time.  If you did 75 feet, would you still be


      22        able to build a parking lot?  Yes or no.


      23             MR. INGRAM:  Somewhere on the property.


      24             Yes, ma'am, we could build a parking lot


      25        somewhere.  You can make it a lot bigger than





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        that --


       2             MS. LEE:  Okay.  I just -- well, honestly,


       3        Mr. Ingram, I'm just trying to -- and as you


       4        know, this has been a very -- whatever issue.


       5             And I guess I should say that I have talked


       6        to, I think, Mr. Stokes about this.  I need


       7        to -- don't you need to say who you talked to


       8        since this is a -- quasi-judicial, right.


       9        Okay.  So I'm making that comment.  I haven't


      10        talked to any of the residents on this.


      11             So I -- it's not my district.  I don't have


      12        a -- but I am somewhat sensitive to district


      13        council issues.  I don't get this in my district


      14        from my colleagues, but, you know, I'm concerned


      15        about it.


      16             Alta Road is a very narrow road, as we all


      17        know, and it is growing unbelievably.


      18             I think that -- okay.  That's all.


      19             MR. INGRAM:  Thank you, ma'am.


      20             MS. LEE:  And I have one last question of


      21        Ms. Loftis.


      22             (Ms. Loftis approaches the podium.)


      23             MS. LEE:  Ms. Loftis, do you think -- am I


      24        correct in assuming that the major concern of


      25        the residents was the access from Alta Road?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Was that the number one concern?


       2             MS. LOFTIS:  Right.


       3             We had two issues when we went in.  One was


       4        access to Alta, and the other was protecting the


       5        character of the surrounding neighborhoods.


       6             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       7             MS. LOFTIS:  Which the offer we gave was to


       8        have it residential.  But then, since then,


       9        we've offered, you know, larger buffers, making


      10        the height of the building the same height of


      11        the houses, a red brick exterior, moving the


      12        ponds.  You know, we've offered so many ways


      13        that they can make that happen that are still


      14        very profitable to them.


      15             MS. LEE:  Okay.  But do you agree, though,


      16        that these recommended changes are -- differ


      17        from what initially was there?


      18             MS. LOFTIS:  Right.


      19             The first PUD that we had looked at gave,


      20        you know, 300 feet off of Alta with 200 feet of


      21        vegetative buffer.  And then when they gave


      22        access -- or they took the access away, they


      23        decided to basically take the PUD and scrap it


      24        back down to the bare bones.  They said that


      25        security chain-link fencing was an acceptable





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        landscape buffer.  They said that, you know, the


       2        berms didn't have to be five feet, they can just


       3        be four.  They said, you know, instead of


       4        planting one tree every 15 feet, we'll put it


       5        every 25 feet.


       6             They basically scalped the plan, which all


       7        of a sudden brought the residents back to, "Wait


       8        a minute.  We thought we were working towards a


       9        compromise."  And it was almost a smoke screen.


      10        It was, "Here," you know.  "We're going to take


      11        the accessway away, but instead of," you know,


      12        "this size of a warehouse, we're going to grow


      13        it by 14 percent.  So we're even further


      14        encroaching up upon your homes."


      15             MS. LEE:  Is that what happened?


      16             MS. LOFTIS:  Yes, ma'am.


      17             MS. LEE:  Is that true?


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  I think Mr. Ingram would be


      19        the best one to answer that question.


      20             MS. LEE:  Okay.  I'm sorry.


      21             Mr. Ingram.


      22             MR. INGRAM:  Yes, we have proposed to have


      23        a maximum of two-and-a-half million square feet


      24        of industrial, of warehouse distribution uses on


      25        the site, and originally it was 2.2 with the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Alta Drive access.


       2             The Alta Drive access provided us an


       3        interchange access six-tenths of a mile away.


       4        It was -- it made it a very desirable --


       5             MS. LEE:  Why did you scrap what you


       6        originally said you were going to do?


       7             MR. INGRAM:  So that we can develop the


       8        property fully while trying to buffer the site.


       9             And I know we're talking about the


      10        buffers.  And I've said that 85 percent opaque,


      11        eight feet tall.  Whether it's 2.2 or 2.5 should


      12        not have a significant difference on the


      13        surrounding residences given the buffers and


      14        given that the sole access point is on New


      15        Berlin Road.  So --


      16             MS. LEE:  Okay.


      17             MR. INGRAM:  Thank you.


      18             MS. LEE:  Okay, Mr. Ingram.


      19             (Ms. Loftis approaches the podium.)


      20             MS. LEE:  Ms. Loftis.


      21             MS. LOFTIS:  Just one other thing to


      22        consider is that these buffers they're talking


      23        about are from the current edge of Alta Drive.


      24        It's already planned to be moved four lane.  So


      25        whatever they're offering, just figure out





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        however much further it takes to widen, they're


       2        going to have that much less buffer.


       3             And they're putting that buffer right on


       4        the edge, so we're going to scalp however much


       5        it takes to widen this road into what they've


       6        offered.  So we'll have even less at the end


       7        than what they're offering.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let me ask a question on


       9        that to the Planning Department.


      10             If we widen the road by two lanes, what is


      11        a typical width of the roadway?  Does somebody


      12        know that answer or not?


      13             MR. CROFTS:  A lane -- I understand that in


      14        this particular case that the right-of-way may


      15        have to go further to the east because of the


      16        fact that the right-of-way on the left may be


      17        already encroached upon by the developer.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Right.  There's houses


      19        there.


      20             MR. CROFTS:  There's houses there.


      21             MS. LOFTIS:  So both of the lanes will have


      22        to go towards this development.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yeah, but my question is,


      24        how wide is a typical two-lane road


      25        right-of-way?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. CROFTS:  I think with the existing


       2        right-of-ways -- but the typical would be -- for


       3        a four-lane road would be 110 feet or


       4        thereabouts.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  But there's already a


       6        two-lane.  So you're talking about 55 feet?


       7             MS. ELLER:  (Inaudible.)


       8             MS. LOFTIS:  That's our whole buffer.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  On the microphone, please.


      10             MS. ELLER:  Yes.


      11             I think that in order for you to evaluate


      12        this appropriately, you would need for the


      13        Planning Department or somebody from Traffic


      14        Engineering to explain the width of unused


      15        right-of-way that already exists because it may


      16        not be -- it may not be that the edge of their


      17        property gets taken for the remaining two


      18        lanes.  It may be that there is actually already


      19        some right-of-way out there from the existing


      20        ditch, et cetera, that would be taken up prior


      21        to getting to the edge of the property line.


      22             I just want to caution you on considering


      23        that evidence, unless you have the proper person


      24        to testify to it.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Perfect.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Well, there's other questions to be asked.


       2        If you want to take a break, I'll be --


       3             MS. LEE:  Well, I want to get out of here


       4        and I know you do too, so I'm not --


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  I want to make a good


       6        decision.  I don't want to get out of here.


       7             MS. LEE:  But, Mr. Chairman, I think that


       8        was a very good question, and I --


       9             Mr. Holt, I don't mean to, at any point,


      10        give any inference that I am trying to undo what


      11        you've done, but I do think that this is a very


      12        serious matter.  And I just want to know by


      13        Mr. Ingram -- based on what our attorney just


      14        told us, do we have an expert in here to answer


      15        that question so that they can feel safe that


      16        they will not be -- that's only fair.  You know,


      17        we all live in neighborhoods.


      18             MR. HOLT:  I think that's a very good


      19        point, and I would like to get an expert in here


      20        to tell us that because there would be a


      21        difference in how much space is used when you go


      22        from a rural road with ditches to curb and


      23        gutter.  You would actually gain -- you wouldn't


      24        use as much space.


      25             So we might already have all of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        right-of-way we need for a four-way -- for a


       2        four-lane divided road, but I'd love to know


       3        that too.


       4             MS. LEE:  Right.


       5             And, Mr. Chairman, let me say this, please,


       6        real quick.


       7             Through the Chair to Mr. Holt.  Mr. Holt, I


       8        intend to -- my intentions were to be able to


       9        support this because I was told that a


      10        compromise was reached, and I was always of the


      11        opinion that the biggest problem was access on


      12        Alta Road.  That's what was on the television.


      13             But I do think that -- in all fairness,


      14        that to undo what the initial offer was, to go


      15        back it's kind of like penalizing you.  "Okay.


      16        Well, if we give you this, we're going to take


      17        away this," you know.  And I have some issues


      18        with that.


      19             And I'm just saying, I want to support this


      20        because I -- I mean, we all care about jobs and


      21        stuff like that, but I don't live in the


      22        neighborhood.  I'm not going to be subjected to


      23        it.


      24             And I want to be able to support you as a


      25        district councilperson, and I came in here with





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        the intentions of doing that.  And I don't see


       2        too much that would more or less change that


       3        from me supporting you, other than getting these


       4        questions answered and getting Mr. Ingram to


       5        agree maybe -- to maybe ante up a little


       6        something so that we can vote on this and I can


       7        be supportive of what it is you're trying --


       8        you-all are trying to do.


       9             I do think -- and I agree with you.  We


      10        find ourselves in some relatively sensitive


      11        positions because of the quasi-judicial matter


      12        that you couldn't -- and I admire you for not


      13        wanting to mislead the people, but I do think


      14        there should have been a little more


      15        communication just to say that, even if it was


      16        in writing, you know, because oftentimes in


      17        these emotional issues people kind of think


      18        we're against them when we aren't.


      19             But I do think that there are some


      20        legitimate concerns, and I do think that the


      21        Alta residents need to be a little understanding


      22        because there has been a big consensus made.


      23        There were people ready to vote on this and not


      24        even be with you.  I wasn't going to be one of


      25        them.  But I think Mr. Holt went and negotiated





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        and got the best deal.  But I think you do have


       2        a legitimate concern now, and that's why I'm


       3        doing all this questioning.


       4             I am prepared to vote for this right now,


       5        but I do want to make sure that everything has


       6        been put on the table and that there is some


       7        kind of consensus that can be given just a


       8        little more to make sure with the expert in the


       9        Planning Department, what they just explained to


      10        us.


      11             (Mr. Ingram approaches the podium.)


      12             MS. LEE:  Mr. Ingram.


      13             MR. INGRAM:  Councilwoman Lee, you're very


      14        persuasive.


      15             What we would --


      16             MS. LEE:  No, I'm really not.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Tom, are you on the land use


      18        or on the zoning?


      19             MR. INGRAM:  I am on the zoning right now.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yeah, I'm on the land use.


      21             Let me explain to the committee where I am.


      22             I think it's critical that this gets -- the


      23        land use get transmitted.  I think it's critical


      24        that this goes back to light industrial for many


      25        reasons that Mr. Mallot spoke of earlier in the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        development of the port.  I have questions on


       2        the zoning as well.


       3             The screen is lit up here.  Anybody have


       4        any other discussion on the land use aspect of


       5        it?


       6             MS. LEE:  On the land use, I need to ask


       7        you, Mr. Chairman, my concern about the expert,


       8        what our attorney conveyed to us, is that --


       9        does that coincide with the land use?


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  No.  That coincides with --


      11             MS. LEE:  That's zoning?


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's a zoning issue.


      13             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Then what about the


      14        75 feet, what does that coincide with?


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  The zoning.


      16             MS. LEE:  The zoning.


      17             Okay.  So are you all clear that this land


      18        use -- so what do -- you don't have any problems


      19        with the land use?


      20             MS. LOFTIS:  The only concern on passing


      21        the land use was that the zoning would need to


      22        be -- you know, the only way that light


      23        industrial and residential can work together is


      24        with very restrictive zoning.  And what we've


      25        seen so far, what the developer has offered so





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        far is not acceptable to the residents, to the


       2        CPAC, to the Planning Commission.  And so that


       3        was our only concern in passing the land use is


       4        there's nothing behind it which indicates that


       5        this is going to be a good plan.


       6             MS. LEE:  Well, based on what my chairman


       7        just told me, those issues that you are most


       8        concerned about are more or less relative to the


       9        zoning.


      10             MS. ELLER:  (Inaudible.)


      11             MS. LEE:  Am I incorrect on that,


      12        Mr. Corrigan, or am I correct?


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, you are correct,


      14        except when the public testified that they'd


      15        like to have some residential as part of this


      16        development, that affects the land use somewhat.


      17             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Well, then, let me speak


      18        on -- now you've got me thinking.


      19             I think that to create a residential


      20        neighborhood for a buffer would somewhat be


      21        unfair because if you were one wanting to come


      22        out and build something like that, then if the


      23        noise affects what's existing, then obviously


      24        it's going to affect any newcomers.  And so I


      25        think that's a little --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MS. LOFTIS:  Well, it's really -- when you


       2        look at it, though, if you see the piece that we


       3        had looked at, basically that would mean


       4        600 feet would be against industry, where now


       5        you have 1,300 feet on Aldersgate, 1,300 feet on


       6        Alta Circle, and all the properties across Alta,


       7        on Misty Marsh.


       8             So you actually -- if you push the


       9        residential line back to that 15 percent that we


      10        had talked about, you actually have less


      11        neighbors that are going to be backed up against


      12        industrial.  You actually have a smaller amount


      13        of footage that would line up against that


      14        industrial.


      15             By placing parcel A in there, you've now


      16        encompassed everybody coming down Alta Circle,


      17        Aldersgate and Misty Marsh.


      18             You know, I know Mr. Holt had said that,


      19        you know -- I'm not sure where he got the idea


      20        that we would ask these residents to drive


      21        through the industrial park to get out.  Of


      22        course a residential access is not anything


      23        compared to semis coming out onto Alta.  So that


      24        was never part of our request, was that we would


      25        put a neighborhood there and they'd travel





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        through.


       2             MS. LEE:  But he made it clear that you


       3        wouldn't have that traffic now, that it's been


       4        moved off of Alta.


       5             MS. LOFTIS:  Right.


       6             MS. LEE:  Do you agree that that is --


       7        that's a fact?


       8             MS. LOFTIS:  Yes.  That if -- in their


       9        request that they are not asking for Alta


      10        access.


      11             MS. LEE:  Right.


      12             MS. LOFTIS:  And we were saying the Alta


      13        access that everybody has been worried about is


      14        the industrial Alta access.  And so if it was to


      15        remain residential in that small area, no one


      16        would be concerned about, you know, 15 to 20


      17        houses exiting on Alta Drive.  That was never a


      18        concern.  It was just the semis.  That was


      19        everybody's worry, was the semis coming out.


      20             So by moving that residential, you're


      21        actually affecting less homes because now we


      22        have just about 600 feet that will line up


      23        against industrial instead of rows of homes.


      24             It's like a U-shape, and everybody along


      25        the U is going to be reached versus just putting





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        a top across the top, which you can see on this


       2        map (indicating).


       3             Basically we have homes all along here


       4        (indicating), we have homes all along here, and


       5        we have homes here.  If we build residential


       6        here (indicating), only the homes that are on


       7        this edge would be affected.


       8             So it's really not placing a neighborhood


       9        as a buffer.  It's having actually less homes


      10        that would be affected by the industrial, you


      11        know.


      12             MS. LEE:  But anyway, homes will still be


      13        affected; do you agree?


      14             MS. LOFTIS:  They will still be affected,


      15        and I would hope that it would be even less work


      16        for the developer to have to just accommodate,


      17        you know, seven or eight homes along the back


      18        versus, you know, all the homes that encompass


      19        three roads.


      20             MS. LEE:  All right.  Thank you.


      21             MS. LOFTIS:  Thank you.


      22             MR. KELLY:  To the Chair --


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further speakers


      24        on 2008-242, open the ballot and record the


      25        vote.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             (Committee ballot opened.)


       2             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MS. LEE:  (Votes yea.)


       6             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


       7             (Committee ballot closed.)


       8             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      10        approved 2008-242.


      11             We're now on 2008-243.  I'll have a number


      12        of ex-parte declarations.


      13             We'll start with Councilmember Yarborough.


      14             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      15             2008-243, I had ex-parte March 31, 2008,


      16        8 o'clock a.m. in my office with Mr. Vaccaro to


      17        discuss the impact to the surrounding


      18        properties.


      19             Thank you.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any other declarations of


      21        ex-parte need to be done?


      22             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't see any.


      24             On my screen I have Councilmember Clark


      25        first.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             You're on the zoning.


       2             MR. CLARK:  I first want to thank


       3        Mr. Holt.  I think he's been stuck in a hard


       4        spot, as we all have through time on things like


       5        this.  They're never easy.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  I believe he became a


       7        councilmember this week.


       8             MR. CLARK:  Yeah, it's always fun to have


       9        ones like this.


      10             You know, I have to agree with Councilwoman


      11        Lee.  What I've heard over and over and over was


      12        the beating of the drum of you cannot, do not


      13        ever allow them to enter Alta.  And in any kind


      14        of compromise, there's a give and take.  And a


      15        buffer with a berm and a 150-foot setback and


      16        darn near 50 feet of berm and vegetation and


      17        trees is -- it's a heck of a --


      18             I wish that we had a lot more in my


      19        district that had that kind of a buffer, I


      20        really do, because we don't.  Everything is


      21        smack up against the wall.


      22             I personally support the way the zoning is


      23        today with the compromise that's been made.  All


      24        I heard from day one was, "Don't let the


      25        developer get on Alta."  They didn't.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             I found that most of these things, when


       2        everybody kind of walks away with a little pain,


       3        that you probably -- you probably did your job.


       4        Everybody had to give a little to get what they


       5        want.


       6             And so I'm in support, as it sits today, of


       7        the zoning.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       9             Councilmember Lee.


      10             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Mr. Chairman, I'm back


      11        where I was before Mr. Ingram was at the


      12        thing -- at the podium.  And my concern is,


      13        based on what Ms. Loftis said, what are you-all


      14        willing to do?


      15             And I can't imagine that you would not be


      16        willing to do something.  Inasmuch as the people


      17        did not talk to their district councilperson for


      18        whatever reason, the Planning Department is


      19        recommending one thing.


      20             And through the Chair, before you speak,


      21        what is it you-all are recommending?


      22             MR. KELLY:  We've got -- the department is


      23        recommending buffer standards that were


      24        basically adopted as part of the industrial land


      25        use analysis study.  There was a variety of what





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Miller Sellen, the consultant, basically


       2        identified as various degrees of buffering.


       3             And so we've tried to standardize


       4        essentially by exhibits and having a --


       5        there's -- we've got --


       6             (Tenders documents.)


       7             MS. LEE:  What's the bottom line?


       8             MR. KELLY:  In the package that we handed


       9        out, we've got two suggestions as a means to


      10        resolve the buffering, which was a -- there's


      11        two sections, section I and section J.


      12             Section I is a 75-foot buffer with very


      13        specific planting requirements and berming


      14        requirements.  And section J is another buffer,


      15        which is a 50-foot buffer, which has, again,


      16        additional planting requirements, berming


      17        requirements, and a masonry wall requirement.


      18             And then there's a top view of that section


      19        also as far as the spacing of the material that


      20        would go in that buffer.  It's very specific,


      21        very detailed.


      22             And along with a lot of other, I guess,


      23        land use amendments and companion rezonings that


      24        have gone through in the last series, this is


      25        something we've implemented in that time.  And





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        we're trying to be consistent with the other


       2        developments that have moved forward and


       3        basically accepted that as a condition.


       4             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Through the Chair, may I


       5        continue?


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Crofts has something to


       7        add to that explanation.


       8             MR. CROFTS:  Could I just -- just to kind


       9        of clarify, the difference between the two,


      10        Ms. Lee, is the fact that I think we're -- in


      11        the developer's proposal, he was taking about a


      12        four-foot berm, and then on top of that a fence


      13        or landscaping.


      14             MS. LEE:  Tell me again what a berm is.


      15             MR. CROFTS:  A berm is just a terrace -- a


      16        terrace, a mound.


      17             In our case, we're asking basically for


      18        more vegetation in the 50- or the 75-foot


      19        buffer.  Our berm in the 50 foot is four feet


      20        high.  And in the 75-foot buffer, it's eight


      21        feet high.  But the difference in the 50 foot


      22        is -- I think the bugaboo here to some degree is


      23        the six-foot solid wall masonry fence on our


      24        50 foot.  That's the difference between where we


      25        want to go, and where I think -- what I think





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        I'm hearing, they could possibly go.


       2             So it's the berm and the permanency of the


       3        wall versus more intense vegetation from our


       4        point of view.


       5             MS. LEE:  So through the Chair to


       6        Mr. Crofts, you're basically saying it would at


       7        least bring some relief and it would be more


       8        attractive?


       9             MR. CROFTS:  Correct.


      10             MS. LEE:  And that, to some degree, be a


      11        little more soothing for people living in the


      12        neighborhood to have homes valued at $500,000


      13        and less -- or $500,000 or more.


      14             And you think that the 50 foot would at


      15        least be somewhat adequate.  It would not put


      16        such a strain even on the developer to go


      17        75 feet.  So you would -- you could live with


      18        50 feet?  Right now it's 45.


      19             MR. CROFTS:  (Nods head.)


      20             MS. LEE:  So five more, you know, isn't a


      21        real strain on the developer; am I correct?


      22             MR. CROFTS:  It's the five feet and it's


      23        the masonry wall that goes on top.


      24             MS. LEE:  Right.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Crofts, we need to --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        we're absolutely confused up here.  You need to


       2        keep the mic.


       3             Who's proposing which one?  Who wants the


       4        wall and who wants the berm?


       5             MR. CROFTS:  Okay.  The Planning Department


       6        wants the wall, which is obviously more


       7        expensive, to go on top of the berm.


       8             The applicant is basically asking for an


       9        85 percent opacity in terms of vegetation or


      10        some other alternative less expensive than the


      11        wall.


      12             That's the difference in our 50-foot buffer


      13        proposal, along with enhanced vegetation.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  So the solid surface and the


      15        Planning Department recommendation is eight foot


      16        high, and the solid surface in the applicant's


      17        agreement is four foot high?


      18             MR. CROFTS:  Correct.  In the form of a


      19        berm.


      20             And the reason -- the other part of the


      21        eight feet with 85 percent opacity of the


      22        landscaping --


      23             MR. CLARK:  Can I -- hold on.  The wall


      24        goes on top of the berm?


      25             MS. ELLER:  (Inaudible.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MS. LEE:  Mr. Crofts, may I?


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes, please continue.


       3             MS. LEE:  Well, you-all really scared me,


       4        you and Richard.  I mean, you-all -- it was


       5        bonkers then.  I didn't know what was --


       6             MR. CLARK:  (Inaudible.)


       7             MS. LEE:  Mr. Chairman, I would have to ask


       8        you, did I ask a question that was in error?


       9             MR. CLARK:  No.  We're talking --


      10             (Inaudible discussion.)


      11             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Mr. Crofts, did you have


      12        an opportunity -- well, I guess through the


      13        Chair really to Mr. Holt.


      14             Mr. Holt, the explanation that had just


      15        been given seems very reasonable.  Was that


      16        articulated to you by -- did you meet with the


      17        Planning Department maybe to have this


      18        discussion inasmuch as you did not get an


      19        opportunity to discuss that phase with your


      20        constituency?


      21             MR. HOLT:  Thank you so much for pointing


      22        that out.


      23             I have not spoken to the folks at the


      24        Planning Department about a wall, but I have


      25        spoken to them several times about what the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        proposal has right now, which is four feet of


       2        berm with four feet of hedge on top of that, and


       3        that would be required to be 85 percent opaque.


       4        That meaning, you can only see through


       5        15 percent of it.  And that is in addition to


       6        the wooded area.


       7             What I also mentioned to the Planning


       8        Department and I haven't heard is that I would


       9        appreciate it if the berm was on the back side


      10        of that wooded area so that if we did widen the


      11        road and it got up to the wooded area, we didn't


      12        take out our berm.  I don't want the berm to be


      13        on the road side.  I want the berm to be on the


      14        development side so we don't end up taking out


      15        any of that berm.


      16             MS. LEE:  Are you saying that's to protect


      17        your people?


      18             MR. HOLT:  Yes.  To make sure that the berm


      19        stays to provide that field.


      20             MS. LEE:  Through the Chair, do you have a


      21        problem with the 50 feet?


      22             MR. HOLT:  With the 50 feet of width?


      23             MS. LEE:  Of width.


      24             MR. HOLT:  No, I have no problem with that.


      25             MS. LEE:  That the Planning Department





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        talked about with some -- some things.  They


       2        either go 50 or 75.


       3             MR. HOLT:  I have no problem with any


       4        expansion of the buffer.


       5             MS. LEE:  Okay.  But I guess I'm


       6        somewhat -- I know that you had discussed this


       7        with the developer, obviously.


       8             MR. HOLT:  Right.


       9             MS. LEE:  You had discussed the 45?


      10             MR. HOLT:  We had discussed the proposal as


      11        it was.


      12             MS. LEE:  But you did not know that your


      13        constituency wanted 50 or 75?


      14             MR. HOLT:  There were probably 25 different


      15        people in that constituency and probably a dozen


      16        or more different opinions of what it should


      17        look like, so I did not address each one of


      18        those.  I've been working with the Planning


      19        Department on the buffering issues.


      20             MS. LEE:  Okay.


      21             (Mr. Ingram approaches the podium.)


      22             MS. LEE:  Mr. Ingram.


      23             MR. INGRAM:  Okay.  We would like to make


      24        an offer on the buffers --


      25             MS. LEE:  Okay.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. INGRAM:  -- to go with the Planning


       2        Department's section J buffer, which is 50 feet


       3        wide, but without the masonry wall that's


       4        required to be finished on all sides, and six


       5        feet tall.  It's just a very -- that is a very


       6        significant cost.  And we believe we can


       7        vegetate it densely.  It's very similar to what


       8        we have proposed, but we would increase the


       9        width.


      10             On Alta Drive, we would -- we would do the


      11        same as section J, same buffer, but 75 feet wide


      12        total so as to provide some additional space in


      13        the event, hopefully, that Alta Drive is


      14        widened.


      15             And we are certainly fine with having the


      16        buffer on the easterly side, which would be


      17        farthest away from the road.


      18             MS. LEE:  Okay.  So, through the Chair,


      19        what you just said, tell me how much of a


      20        compromise you just did from 10 percent to


      21        100 percent.


      22             MR. INGRAM:  Ten percent to 100 percent?


      23             MS. LEE:  Uh-huh.


      24             MR. INGRAM:  Ms. Lee, we have changed and


      25        increased our buffer proposals all along.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Okay?


       2             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       3             MR. INGRAM:  So this is just another step.


       4             It's not like we started at zero today and


       5        refused to compromise all the way, so --


       6             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Tom, let me clarify.


       8             You're saying that you're agreeing to a


       9        condition of building a masonry wall as shown in


      10        section J?


      11             MR. INGRAM:  No.  What we're suggesting is


      12        the buffer per section J but without the


      13        six-foot masonry wall finished on all sides and


      14        capped.


      15             MS. LEE:  How expensive is the wall?


      16             MR. INGRAM:  Ma'am, I don't know exactly,


      17        but that is -- that is an absolute Cadillac of


      18        all walls.  That is a -- if it were a short


      19        distance, I don't think I'd be here fussing


      20        about it, but it's a lot of -- a lot of


      21        linear --


      22             MS. LEE:  A lot?


      23             MR. INGRAM:  Yes, ma'am.


      24             MS. LEE:  About approximately what?


      25             MR. INGRAM:  I don't --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MS. LEE:  Well, the Planning Department


       2        will be able to answer that.


       3             What is the --


       4             MR. KELLY:  On the width?


       5             (Inaudible discussion among committee


       6        members.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Kelly, my question --


       8        the question I'd like to have answered is the


       9        Planning Department input on the compromises


      10        listed by Mr. Ingram is what I want to know.


      11             Are you in support of that concept?


      12             MR. KELLY:  Through the Chair, we would


      13        be -- the wall is -- probably it's just over


      14        1,100 feet, the amount of frontage that the


      15        applicant has along Alta Drive.  So having over


      16        a thousand foot quarter-mile masonry wall may


      17        appear onerous when landscaping could serve the


      18        same purpose.


      19             I think our concern -- and we'd be willing


      20        to do Exhibit J with the buffer plan, detail A


      21        and B attached.  However, we feel that the Alta


      22        Road right-of-way right now is a collector road


      23        right-of-way.  It appears to be about 60 feet.


      24        It's level of service F, so it's a failing


      25        road.  And we feel that the need to four-lane





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        would bring it into a minor arterial road


       2        roadway with a right-of-way demand of about


       3        110 feet or 120 feet, which is the typical City


       4        standard based on the cross-section for your


       5        lanes, your curb and gutter, your sidewalks and


       6        your clear zone and your bike lanes.


       7             So we would -- the 75 feet along Alta,


       8        while on the face appears more, it may, net


       9        result, be less than the 45-foot buffer.  And so


      10        if we could have that buffer be met exclusive of


      11        any future right-of-way takings and just stick


      12        with the J and not even -- or, you know, at


      13        50 feet or put 75 feet.  But there's certainly


      14        going to be more than 25 feet of right-of-way


      15        for a four-lane section built to City


      16        standards.


      17             MS. LEE:  Mr. Chairman, you --


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  You still have the floor.


      19             MS. LEE:  Mr. Chairman, I'm a little upset,


      20        and I feel somewhat resentful that my colleagues


      21        would feel that I'm dominating the meeting


      22        because I'm asking questions.


      23             Now, that's my right.


      24             MR. CLARK:  (Inaudible.)


      25             MS. LEE:  Yeah, but --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. CLARK:  (Inaudible.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let's get back on the bill.


       3             MS. LEE:  I have the floor.  Let me say


       4        what I want to say.


       5             Now, I -- and I will say this, is that as a


       6        councilmember, I have the right to ask


       7        questions.


       8             Mr. Corrigan?


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm not telling you to quit


      10        asking questions.


      11             MS. LEE:  And it's suggested that I'm


      12        dominating the meeting because I'm asking


      13        questions.  It really makes -- it doesn't make


      14        me feel well because I didn't know I was


      15        dominating the meeting.  I'm a member of this


      16        committee and I have to vote on this.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  But, Ms. Lee --


      18             MS. LEE:  Well, Mr. Corrigan, I am really


      19        upset.  And I'm going to be honest with you.


      20        You know, I came here with the intention of


      21        coming to the meeting and being fair.  It's not


      22        in my district.  I don't have a dog in this


      23        hunt.  Nobody out there votes for me, and they


      24        won't vote for me, even with redistricting.  And


      25        that will never be in the area I run in.  I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        haven't talked to one person out there.


       2             But this is -- and then, you know, it makes


       3        me feel as though that -- if Mr. Holt isn't


       4        satisfied, that I shouldn't be asking questions


       5        to Mr. Holt because he can handle it and he has


       6        to say, you know, it's okay.  That makes me feel


       7        bad because it makes as though I've done


       8        something wrong and all I did was just ask some


       9        questions.


      10             I intend -- I've said to Mr. Holt, I


      11        support, I came here to support this because a


      12        compromise was made.  But after the people said


      13        that they had not talked to Mr. Holt, and our


      14        attorney explained, Mr. Corrigan, that Mr. Holt,


      15        because of the quasi-judicial thing -- and


      16        that's when I got involved, and that's the


      17        truth.


      18             I am not here trying to dominate anything,


      19        and I get a little sick and tired of always


      20        being the one accused of dominating or asking


      21        too many questions, and I've got a right to do


      22        that.


      23             And I'm -- you know, I don't deserve that,


      24        and I'm very upset about it because I am fair.


      25        If Denise Lee asks too many questions, then I'm





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        either dominating the meeting, or you talk too


       2        much, or we're going to put her in her place.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Lee, with all due


       4        respect, I haven't said any of those things.


       5             MS. LEE:  Well, I know.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm here --


       7             MS. LEE:  I just feel bad because I --


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  But I'm the chairman of this


       9        committee --


      10             MS. LEE:  Yes.  You know --


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- and I'm telling you I'm


      12        here to discuss item number 2008-243.


      13             MS. LEE:  It might -- I know.


      14             Okay.  I'll comment --


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's all I care about.


      16             MS. LEE:  Okay.  But I'm just saying, I


      17        just -- I feel bad about that.


      18             Now I'm getting very frustrated with that.


      19        I think that I'm a team player, whatever that is


      20        supposed to mean.


      21             I'm not here against Mr. Ingram.  I have


      22        been a friend to the builders and the developers


      23        and everybody else in this city.


      24             I wouldn't have asked one question had


      25        Mr. Holt said he had met and talked to the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        people, but to tell me when I can talk and I


       2        need to move on and the people this, and the


       3        people -- I will talk as long as I want to.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  But -- Ms. Lee, you can talk


       5        as long as you want to, but I'm going to make


       6        sure that we stay --


       7             MS. LEE:  Okay.  I'm through, Mr. Corrigan.


       8        I am very upset.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  But that's fine.


      10             MS. LEE:  And I'm very -- because I really


      11        feel as though this is not -- to say I'm


      12        dominating a meeting because I'm asking


      13        questions bothers me.  And that's not


      14        leadership.  And I'm through.


      15             Mr. Ingram, I have one last question.


      16             Mr. Ingram, I think that your compromise in


      17        an effort to at least -- I'm only one vote, and


      18        I feel very strong that something could be


      19        worked out at least -- you don't live out there


      20        and I don't either.  But if you're willing to


      21        compromise, you know, I can't -- you know, it's


      22        up to you.  Mr. Holt is a district


      23        councilperson.  You know, I've said what I had


      24        to say, and I feel very strong about it.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Councilmember Holt, did you





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        have a response or not?  I saw you waving your


       2        microphone.  Are you done?


       3             MR. HOLT:  That's all right.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't have anybody else on


       5        the queue.


       6             Seeing no further speakers, open the ballot


       7        and record the vote.


       8             MS. LEE:  Is that compromise in?  Was it


       9        part of --


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, we need to -- we're on


      11        the amendment.  That's right.  I'm sorry.


      12             Nobody has even moved the amendment yet.


      13        We need to get in proper posture.


      14             Do I have a motion on the amendment?


      15             MR. SHAD:  Move the amendment.


      16             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Second.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and a


      18        second.


      19             Mr. Crofts, could you please explain the


      20        amendment for the record.


      21             MR. CROFTS:  I will, Mr. Chairman.


      22             The amendment consists of the following


      23        conditions:


      24             Beginning with number 1, "The development


      25        shall be subject to the original legal





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        description dated January 25, 2008."


       2             "The development shall be subject to the


       3        revised written description dated April 23rd,


       4        2008."


       5             Number 3, "The development shall be subject


       6        to the revised site plan dated April 21, 2008."


       7             Number 4, "The development shall be subject


       8        to the review and approval of the Development


       9        Services memorandum dated March 12th, 2007, or


      10        as otherwise approved by the Planning and


      11        Development Department."


      12             Number 5, "Prior to the verification of


      13        substantial compliance approval, a traffic study


      14        shall be performed and provided to the City of


      15        Jacksonville's Planning and Development


      16        Department, subject to the department's approval


      17        to determine the traffic signal, deceleration


      18        lane, length of median turn lanes, parking


      19        spaces for trucks, and safety impact on


      20        New Berlin Road at the project's entrance."


      21             Condition number 6, "All off-site roadway


      22        improvements required as a result of the traffic


      23        study required under condition 5 above, other


      24        than those that are considered as part of a fair


      25        share development agreement, must be completed





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        prior to the issuance of a certificate of


       2        occupancy."


       3             Number 7, "All vehicle bays and truck


       4        courts shall be oriented to the internal portion


       5        of the site and not visible from a public


       6        right-of-way or residentially-zoned property."


       7             Number 8, "To provide interconnectivity,


       8        the Alta Lakes PUD may add additional access


       9        points to the south and east boundaries of the


      10        property through adjacent properties."


      11             Number 9, "Where adjacent to Alta Road and


      12        RLD or RR-zoned lands, there shall be a


      13        buffer."


      14             And the buffer as we recommended would


      15        comply with I or J and buffer plan A or B that


      16        we provided as attachments hereto.  And I know


      17        that we discussed some other alternatives to


      18        that, and I'm going to let Sean discuss those,


      19        that minor -- or that revision.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      21             Sean.


      22             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      23             Through the Chair to the committee, I would


      24        just amend condition 12 to read, "Where adjacent


      25        to Alta Road and RLD or RR-zoned lands, there





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        shall be a buffer which complies with Exhibit J


       2        and buffer plan A or B with the exception of the


       3        requirement for a six-foot masonry wall.  In


       4        addition, the buffer shall be met exclusive of


       5        the future right-of-way needs for the


       6        four-laneing of Alta Drive."


       7             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, as the -- as I


       8        read those into the record, I would just say


       9        that that would be the change or modification


      10        actually to condition 9 as they were proposed.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Ingram, do you agree


      12        with those conditions?


      13             MR. INGRAM:  Well, no.


      14             With regards to condition 7, we are


      15        proposing an extensive buffer.  We would not --


      16        we're asking to not be required to orient truck


      17        courts towards the internal portion of the


      18        property, given that such truck courts must be


      19        at least 150 feet from any residential property


      20        line or Alta Drive already.  So with that kind


      21        of buffer, we'd ask that that be deleted.


      22             Also, on condition 9 regarding the


      23        additional buffer width for Alta, it is unclear


      24        how much width might be needed for Alta.  We had


      25        proposed 75-foot landscape.  If some of that is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        needed to be taken for right-of-way, then that's


       2        the City's prerogative.  But it's just -- to


       3        have uncertainly and build a project and not


       4        know how much additional space must be needed,


       5        you could cause a nonconforming use by virtue of


       6        a subsequent action of the City.


       7             So we propose to use --


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't know if I agree --


       9        understand or agree with you.


      10             MR. INGRAM:  Okay.  If Alta is widened, and


      11        today it's 120 feet, and tomorrow it's -- or


      12        five years from now the City determines they


      13        need 150 feet and we're supposed to have a


      14        50-foot buffer and we've already built a


      15        building there, we can't move the building, you


      16        know, to meet -- because you have a floating


      17        buffer zone under their proposal given --


      18        depending on how wide the right-of-way needs to


      19        be and how much of our property is -- is taken.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  But, in my opinion, if the


      21        language said that the buffer -- the section J


      22        buffer will be located on the easterlymost


      23        portion of the land --


      24             MR. INGRAM:  Yes, sir.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- then you've accomplished





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        that.


       2             You're talking -- you have -- you're going


       3        to have at least a minimum of 25 feet of flat


       4        land available for developing -- or widening of


       5        Alta Road if you do that.


       6             And, I mean, to me -- my problem is -- and


       7        I think one of the residents said if you locate


       8        that berm on the western point, then you're


       9        going to, for sure, lose the berm as soon as we


      10        widen that road, I guarantee you.


      11             MR. INGRAM:  We will certainly put it on


      12        the easterly portion.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  My personal opinion is, if


      14        there was a 100-foot-wide landscaping buffer


      15        area and the first 50 feet was on the


      16        easternmost portion, all these problems are


      17        going to go away and you're never going to have


      18        to deal with it again is the way I look at it.


      19             MR. INGRAM:  Well, can we just understand


      20        how wide Alta -- how much of a vegetative area


      21        do we need to have, and can we just nail that


      22        down?


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, the only way to nail


      24        that down is to -- we shouldn't move on the bill


      25        if we're going to try to nail that down.  I'm





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        trying to get as close as we can get to having a


       2        solution that gets us out of here today with a


       3        compromise is what I'm looking for.


       4             MR. INGRAM:  So it's a floating buffer?  Is


       5        that --


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  No.


       7             MR. KELLY:  No.  It's specifically for the


       8        four-laneing only.  And if they went and they


       9        six-laned it at some point in the future, then


      10        that would be, you know, something else.


      11             But specifically for the four-laneing,


      12        because of the right-of-way needs, I believe are


      13        at least about 110 feet for a four-lane section


      14        that meets City standards within that --


      15        potentially because there's only a 60-foot


      16        right-of-way now, 50 feet could come off your


      17        property, which would essentially remove or


      18        eliminate the 50-foot buffer in Exhibit J.  So


      19        that's why we're saying keep the buffer and then


      20        account for the future right-of-way needs.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Tom, where I'm coming from


      22        is in the 100 feet, you would have 50 feet


      23        available and then 50 feet of the berm would


      24        always be there.


      25             MR. SHAD:  (Inaudible.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  He has to agree to it, and


       2        then he has to be compensated if the City takes


       3        it.


       4             MR. SHAD:  (Inaudible.)


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I understand.


       6             MR. INGRAM:  Mr. Kelly's proposal is fine.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Eller.


       8             MS. ELLER:  Thank you.


       9             Since I'm going to reduce this to writing,


      10        based upon what's been read into the transcript,


      11        I understand that the Planning Department has


      12        read in all those conditions, and Mr. Ingram has


      13        requested that one of the conditions regarding


      14        orienting the truck -- some internal orientation


      15        condition that he's asked to remove, that the


      16        Planning Department has requested.  So after we


      17        resolve this buffer issue, the committee will


      18        have to make a determination on that particular


      19        condition.


      20             But with regard to the buffer condition, if


      21        we could just have the Planning Department read


      22        it into the record again.  And as I understand


      23        it, it's going to be a straight-up 100 feet, and


      24        that 100 feet is calculated based upon 50 feet


      25        reserved and 50 feet to meet the -- J.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Go ahead.  Read it again.


       2             MR. KELLY:  Well, it might not need to be


       3        100 feet, depending on what the widening needs


       4        are, but there is that potential.  But the way


       5        it reads, it's flexible to provide the buffer if


       6        there's minimum right-of-way taking.


       7             So the condition would read, "Where


       8        adjacent to Alta Road in RLD or RR-zoned lands,


       9        there shall be a buffer which complies with


      10        Exhibit J and buffer plan A or B with the


      11        exception of the requirement for the six-foot


      12        masonry wall."


      13             In addition, "The buffering shall be met


      14        exclusive of the right-of-way needs for the


      15        four-laneing of Alta Drive."


      16             MS. ELLER:  Thank you.


      17             And, Mr. Ingram, can you confirm that that


      18        language, as Sean just read, is acceptable?


      19             MR. INGRAM:  Yes, ma'am, it is.


      20             MS. ELLER:  All right.


      21             And then -- thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      22             And the last remaining issue for me with


      23        regard to drafting the amendment as read into


      24        the record would be the committee's decision on


      25        the condition that Mr. Ingram requested to be





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        removed regarding the internal orientation of


       2        the truck turnarounds, I believe, that the


       3        Planning Department mentioned.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Was that previously


       5        discussed with the Planning Department prior to


       6        today?


       7             MR. CROFTS:  We can live with the


       8        abolishing of that particular condition.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  I personally -- I heard


      10        testimony from Mr. Ingram saying that it was


      11        parking for employees.


      12             MR. INGRAM:  That's still true.


      13             It has to do with the ability to have a


      14        cross dock warehouse where you have -- if you


      15        can only put the truck courts on the inside of a


      16        building, then you're dramatically limiting the


      17        ability to put buildings on the site.


      18             We have proposed there be at least 150 feet


      19        between the edge of any property line with the


      20        residential or Alta, between that and any truck


      21        courts.  So there's this 150 foot space.  Within


      22        some of that, there could be employee parking


      23        but not truck parking or truck courts.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      25             Councilmember Shad.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             MR. SHAD:  Thank you.


       2             Through the Chair to the Planning


       3        Department, this whole discussion on the


       4        widening of Alta, is today the first time you're


       5        having it with the developer?  You had


       6        previously?


       7             MR. KELLY:  Well, through the Chair to


       8        Councilman Shad, previously it wasn't an issue


       9        because there was a 200-foot landscape buffer.


      10        So between the Planning Commission meeting and


      11        the changes to the written description, we


      12        subsequently came to the revised conditions.


      13             MR. SHAD:  Then you had always the buffer


      14        on the eastern portion of it, then, previously?


      15             MR. KELLY:  Again, our recommendation


      16        was -- and to be consistent with the industrial


      17        buffer standards that we've kind of adopted as


      18        policy by the Miller Sellen study.


      19             MR. SHAD:  Got it.


      20             And, of course, there will be -- this will


      21        be -- they'll be compensated for taking that


      22        land, obviously.


      23             Okay.  Thank you.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Councilmember Lee.


      25             MS. LEE:  Yes.  Through the Chair to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        Mr. Kelly or Mr. Crofts, the part that


       2        Mr. Ingram wanted deleted out, could you just,


       3        in laymen terms, explain to me what --


       4             MR. KELLY:  The condition -- they have a


       5        150-foot setback requirement for any truck


       6        courts from the residential zoned property.


       7             MS. ELLER:  (Inaudible.)


       8             MR. KELLY:  Correct.


       9             And that's where the loading -- the loading


      10        docks.  You know, there will be 20 docks in a


      11        row on one side and 20 docks on the other side


      12        if it's a true truck court.


      13             I think our orientation is that they be


      14        internally oriented towards each other instead


      15        of having a whole open 22 row or section of bays


      16        that directly faces a residential lot where all


      17        those trucks are then coming in and


      18        maneuvering.


      19             We're fine with the employee parking and


      20        the vehicle use area, but then opening up that


      21        expanse, the noise attenuation that's needed


      22        basically.


      23             And so if it's internally oriented, the


      24        buildings will suppress that noise as opposed to


      25        having them directly -- externally.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             So maybe there's -- if they are truck


       2        courts as opposed to a -- and that implies that


       3        there's -- on both sides of that truck vehicle


       4        use area, that they're oriented towards each


       5        other.  I think that's something that we could


       6        probably be agreeable upon, that no truck court


       7        face directly into a residentially-zoned


       8        property.


       9             MS. LEE:  Okay.  So -- through the Chair,


      10        so, in other words, that language that you just


      11        stated will be incorporated into this


      12        condition?


      13             MR. KELLY:  If it was acceptable to the


      14        applicant.


      15             I think the fear is that it's directly --


      16        not so much the visibility, but it's really the


      17        noise issue.  And so if it directly faces it,


      18        that's an issue we might have.  But if it's --


      19        if the two buildings are kind of oriented


      20        together in a way where the truck courts are,


      21        you know, perpendicular to the property line


      22        essentially and 150 feet away, we'd be fine with


      23        that.


      24             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Mr. Chairman, that, to me,


      25        seems reasonable, and I guess it would be up to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        the applicant.  To me, that seems like a pretty


       2        decent compromise.


       3             Kind of like Mr. Shad, you know, this is a


       4        lot of conversation that you would think would


       5        have occurred prior to this.  But,


       6        unfortunately, the people did not have an


       7        opportunity to even get to that point.  And I'm


       8        not saying that's the district councilman's


       9        fault because the attorney said --


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  I got the point.  Through


      11        e-mails, I got the point.  So they got the point


      12        through.


      13             MS. LEE:  Huh?


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  They got their point


      15        through.  It got through to the chairman.  I can


      16        tell you that.


      17             MS. LEE:  No, wait a minute.  I missed


      18        something.  Did I miss something?


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  They have sent their input


      20        to us through e-mail, and I've gotten their


      21        input.  And that's many of the discussions I'm


      22        having tonight.  It's not that they have not


      23        talked or gotten their input to the


      24        councilmembers.  It's been received.


      25             MS. LEE:  No, I agree.  But, no --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1             Based on earlier testimony, after this was


       2        worked out, Mr. Holt said that he -- the reason


       3        he didn't call back -- you know, the young lady


       4        came up and said that she couldn't get a return


       5        call.  He said because of the quasi-judicial.


       6        That's what I was talking about.


       7             And I guess that's why this conversation is


       8        happening, at least on my part, is because of


       9        the quasi-judicial restraint that we are under.


      10             And so I feel better knowing that at least


      11        we did have a discussion.  I don't fault the


      12        district councilperson.  It's just that I think


      13        that this is healthy.


      14             And regardless of how you vote it, at least


      15        the things that they were not able to


      16        articulate, at least they would have this


      17        opportunity.


      18             And along with the -- in all due respect to


      19        Mr. Ingram as well.  You know, he has made some


      20        considerations.  And I think that's good that he


      21        was willing to make some kind of compromise.


      22        And probably had this discussion not happened,


      23        you know, maybe the people may not get


      24        100 percent.  And I think everybody has to give


      25        some.  And I think this has allowed that to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        happened, if Mr. Ingram --


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Eller.


       3             MS. ELLER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       4             The condition 7 had been requested to be


       5        removed by the applicant, and Mr. Crofts said


       6        the Planning Department was okay with removing


       7        that condition, and then Mr. Kelly mentioned an


       8        alternative.  So I just want Mr. Ingram to speak


       9        to what the applicant is or is not willing to


      10        accept regarding the location of truck courts.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  That was going to be my next


      12        question.


      13             MR. CROFTS:  I just want to go ahead on the


      14        record and say that actually I wanted to amend


      15        it and draw it out, and we have modified that


      16        situation and discussed it with the applicant.


      17             Basically any truck courts that would be


      18        facing to the west towards Alta would not be


      19        allowed, but that they could go to the north and


      20        the south.


      21             MR. INGRAM:  Well, if I could, it's --


      22        actually what we're proposing is they couldn't


      23        face directly towards Aldersgate or Alta Circle.


      24             MR. CROFTS:  Right.


      25             MR. INGRAM:  But it would be okay to have





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        truck courts that faced directly towards Alta


       2        Drive, given the other buffers.


       3             MS. LEE:  Well, but --


       4             MR. INGRAM:  I'm sorry.  Go ahead.


       5             MS. LEE:  Through the Chair, I had a


       6        question.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Lee.


       8             MS. LEE:  I apologize.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Right now I'm trying to


      10        clarify a condition.  So wait until we clarify


      11        it.


      12             MR. INGRAM:  So basically you wouldn't have


      13        truck courts facing directly towards the


      14        residences that are closest to this project.


      15        That's what we're acceptable to.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  And the Planning


      17        Department's input on that, please.


      18             MR. KELLY:  Just -- to the Chair, just the


      19        department -- again, the first priority would be


      20        to protect the residentially-zoned properties


      21        immediately adjacent and -- so that there's no


      22        direct line of sight from a truck court directly


      23        facing a residentially-zoned property.


      24             Esthetically, again -- I mean, Alta Road,


      25        it's a busy road.  When it's four-laned, it's





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        going to be busy and there's going to be a


       2        50-foot buffer exclusive of that and potentially


       3        or likely retention areas within that.


       4             But I would be -- and speaking, I guess,


       5        with John on behalf of the department, we would


       6        be supportive, although it would -- of removing


       7        the orientation away from Alta Road.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  You guys are clearing this


       9        up like mud.  I mean, it's just --


      10             MR. KELLY:  I'll simply say --


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let me let Ms. Eller take


      12        another stab at it.


      13             MS. ELLER:  Thank you.


      14             It would be helpful if the sentence that


      15        I'm about to say could be finished, which would


      16        be:  Truck courts may face blank and may not


      17        face blank.


      18             And I think what Mr. Ingram said is that


      19        truck courts may not face the


      20        residentially-zoned properties that are on the


      21        western side of the development, which is the


      22        residential properties that are on this western


      23        side, and that the truck courts would not face


      24        them.


      25             Which, because there's residential





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        properties that are to the north and to the


       2        south, it may be that the truck courts can't


       3        face to the north for this neighborhood and to


       4        the west for this neighborhood; they can't face


       5        to the south of this neighborhood and to the


       6        west for that neighborhood.


       7             So if we could just be real clear about


       8        which direction truck courts may face, I think


       9        that would be helpful for drafting.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well -- but I can tell you


      11        that.  You all said three different things in


      12        that.


      13             What I heard Mr. Ingram saying -- and


      14        somebody tell me if I'm wrong.  Mr. Ingram said


      15        that truck courts cannot face existing


      16        residential properties adjacent to this project


      17        on Alta Circle and on Alderson Road.


      18             MR. INGRAM:  Aldersgate.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  They can face Alta Road


      20        because it is not adjacent to single-family


      21        residences is what I heard Mr. Ingram say.


      22             And what I would like is the Planning


      23        Department's input on that condition.


      24             MR. KELLY:  Our recommendation would be


      25        this:  Truck courts in parcel A and parcel C





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, Fl 32203





       1        would not directly face either a residentially


       2        zoned piece of property or Alta Drive.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  So, in that case, it can't


       4        face any one of the three.