1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE


       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING


       3                         COMMITTEE






       6             Proceedings held on Tuesday, March 4, 2008,


       7   commencing at 5:05 p.m., City Hall, Council Chambers,


       8   1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before Diane M.


       9   Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of


      10   Florida at Large.




      12   PRESENT:


      13        MICHAEL CORRIGAN, Chair.

                CLAY YARBOROUGH, Vice Chair.

      14        RICHARD CLARK, Committee Member.

                MIA JONES, Committee Member.

      15        E. DENISE LEE, Committee Member.

                ART SHAD, Committee Member.

      16        JACK WEBB, Committee Member.



           ALSO PRESENT:


                JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

      19        SEAN KELLY, Planning and Development Dept.

                KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.

      20        FOLKS HUXFORD, Planning and Development Dept.

                SHANNON ELLER, Office of General Counsel.

      21        JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.

                MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.


                                 -  -  -










           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   March 4, 2008                           5:05 p.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good afternoon, ladies and


       5        gentlemen.


       6             Welcome to the Tuesday, March 4th meeting


       7        of the Land Use and Zoning Committee.


       8             I'm your chairman, Michael Corrigan.


       9        My vice chairman Clay Yarborough is here.


      10        Councilmember Art Shad has joined us,


      11        Councilmember Richard Clark, and Councilman Jack


      12        Webb.


      13             We have a host of Planning Department


      14        officials, Shannon from OGC, and several people


      15        in the audience.


      16             So good afternoon and welcome.


      17             We'll go pretty much straight through our


      18        agenda today.  We do have two appeals, item


      19        number 2 and item number 31.  Those will be


      20        heard at the end, as in standard practice with


      21        this committee.  We have a fairly light agenda


      22        today, so we will go ahead and get started.


      23             We will begin with item number 1,


      24        2005-718.  We'll open that public hearing.


      25             Seeing no speakers, we will continue that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        public hearing with no further action.


       2             We'll come back to item 2.


       3             Item 3, 2005-1228, is deferred.


       4             Top of page 3.  All the items on page 3 are


       5        deferred:  2006-24, -220, -360, -520.


       6             On page 4, top of the page, item 8,


       7        2006-658, is deferred.


       8             Item 9, 2007-144, and item 10, 2007-145 are


       9        companion rezonings.  We'll open the public


      10        hearing on -144.


      11             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue it to


      12        May 6th.


      13             We'll open -145.


      14             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      15        public hearing until May 6th.


      16             Item number 11, 2007-384, is deferred.


      17             We are on page 5.  Item 2007-581 is


      18        deferred.


      19             Item 13, 2007-659.  We'll open the public


      20        hearing.


      21             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      22        public hearing.


      23             Item 14 and 15 are deferred, 2007-803 and


      24        -1011.


      25             We are on page 6, committee members, item





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        2007-1046.  We'll open that public hearing.


       2             This bill, we will have a public hearing


       3        but will not take any action tonight.  It was


       4        also deferred at the Planning Commission


       5        meeting.


       6             I do have three speaker cards:  I have


       7        Louise De Spain, David Boone, and Jan Boone.


       8        We're not taking action if -- all waived their


       9        right to speak, so we will continue that public


      10        hearing with no further action.


      11             Item 17 and 18, 2007-1051 and -1061, are


      12        both deferred.


      13             Please turn to page 7.  Item 19, 2007-1085,


      14        we'll open that public hearing.


      15             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      16        public hearing.


      17             Item 20, 2007-1086.  We'll open that public


      18        hearing.


      19             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue it.


      20             Item 21, we'll open the public hearing.


      21             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      22        public hearing.


      23             Item 22, 2007-1125.  We'll open that public


      24        hearing.


      25             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        public hearing with no further action.


       2             Hard to believe, but we're already on


       3        page 8 of our agenda.  Item number 23,


       4        2007-1194.  We will open that public hearing.


       5             Seeing no speakers, we will close that


       6        public hearing and go to the Planning


       7        Department.


       8             Mr. Crofts or Mr. Kelly.  Who wants to


       9        handle this one?


      10             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, I don't know if


      11        any applicants are here for this particular


      12        item.  I do know that Ms. Lee had met with the


      13        applicant and had indicated that -- before the


      14        last council meeting, that she was in favor of


      15        it or supported it, but I feel a little nervous


      16        about doing it until she arrives.  If it does


      17        pass, if she confirms my -- and our


      18        understanding, at this point, then we have some


      19        conditions that we'd like to add to it.


      20             So I think we may be better just to


      21        postpone temporarily.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We will just -- I'll


      23        tell you what, we'll continue that public


      24        hearing and bring it up later on in the agenda


      25        to see if we want to take action on it.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             So thank you, Mr. Crofts.  Just remind me


       2        to go back to it.


       3             Item 24, 2007-1215.  We'll open that public


       4        hearing.


       5             We have one speaker, Mr. T.R. Hainline.


       6             MR. HARDEN:  Can we wait until Ms. Lee


       7        comes back?


       8             THE  CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We'll wait on that


       9        one as well.


      10             Thank you.


      11             (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)


      12             MR. DUGGAN:  Mr. Chairman, Mr. Hainline is


      13        endeavoring to talk to Ms. Lee in the back about


      14        the most recent discussions on this bill.  If we


      15        could lay that on the table.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  We will wait a


      17        little bit on that one.  We'll come back to it


      18        later on the agenda.


      19             23 and 24 we'll come back to.


      20             Item 25, 2005-1230, is deferred.


      21             Item 2007-1308.  We'll open that public


      22        hearing.


      23             We have several speakers' cards.  We have


      24        Jeannie Cave, I believe it is, Lisa Pulley, and


      25        Jeff Thompson.  Any of those speakers here?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yeah.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Come on up.


       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Give your name and address


       5        for the record, and you have three minutes.


       6             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.  I'm Jeannie Cave.


       7             I represent Cox Radio and Cox Enterprises.


       8        We are asking in favor of the application for a


       9        waiver of minimum required road frontage so that


      10        we can secure our site.


      11             We currently have four towers on the site,


      12        and they have guy wires with radials underneath


      13        the ground.  Those radials are being dug up at


      14        the moment by people coming to the site and


      15        removing them for the copper.


      16             We also have an existing building that sits


      17        there today that we would -- that was on fire by


      18        arson a few years back, and we want to refurbish


      19        that building.  And we'd like to sell it to


      20        Mr. Thompson, who is here today, so that we will


      21        have somebody on the site full time with a


      22        physical presence.


      23             That building is on the site, so it's a


      24        really narrow ditch.  So there's no way for us


      25        to move it.  So we're asking for this waiver so





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that we can have somebody clean it up and occupy


       2        it.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you very much.  That's


       4        fine.  Thank you.


       5             MS. CAVE:  Thank you.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Our next speaker is Lisa


       7        Pulley, followed by Jeff Thompson -- or, Jeff,


       8        you can go first, whichever way you want to go


       9        in.


      10             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good afternoon.


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.  My name is Lisa


      13        Pulley.  I own the property right in front of


      14        this at 6861 --


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Pull that microphone a


      16        little closer to you, please.


      17             MS. PULLEY:  Okay.  I own the property at


      18        6861, right in front of this property, and I am


      19        in favor of having them -- have this rezoning.


      20        It would help to clean up and to keep vagrants


      21        out.  My business was just broken into not even


      22        three months ago, so this would really help us


      23        tremendously.


      24             Thank you.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you very much.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Our final speaker is Jeff Thompson.


       2             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Jeff Thompson,


       4        1942 Hamilton Street.


       5             I am trying to buy this piece of property


       6        to move my construction company over there.


       7        It's zoned commercial, zoned for that.  We have


       8        a small construction company, mostly I would


       9        consider a paper construction company.


      10             We don't have equipment, we don't have any


      11        of that, just have some people that drive


      12        vehicles and come and go.  And it's not going to


      13        be a big construction site or we won't store


      14        equipment or anything like that.


      15             So I'd just like this to get approved so


      16        that I can buy it.


      17             Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      19             I don't have any other speakers on


      20        2007-1308, so we'll close that public hearing.


      21             Planning Department, you want to give us


      22        your input, please.


      23             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.  To the Chair --


      24             (Telephone interruption.)


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Time's up.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. KELLY:  -- ordinance 2007-1308 seeks a


       2        reduction in the waiver of road frontage


       3        requirement from thirty-five feet to zero feet


       4        to allow for the redevelopment of a


       5        commercially-zoned parcel, CCG-1, that is being


       6        subdivided out of the larger radio tower site.


       7             The subject property was previously


       8        operated as a radio station.  It's currently


       9        landlocked between some residential uses.


      10        However, it does have a CCG-1 parcel immediately


      11        south with direct access to the Lenox Avenue


      12        road right-of-way.


      13             Staff reviewed it for consistency with the


      14        criteria and found that the request did meet all


      15        the criteria and is recommending grant of this


      16        waiver with two conditions, and I'll read those


      17        two conditions for the record.


      18             Condition 1, "The subject property shall


      19        not be further subdivided without bringing the


      20        existing easement into compliance with City


      21        standards and dedicating it as an approved


      22        public right-of-way or an approved private


      23        right-of-way."


      24             Condition 2, "The subject property shall be


      25        limited to 12,000 square feet of professional





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        and business office uses, subject to the review


       2        and approval of the Planning and Development


       3        Department."


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you,


       5        Mr. Kelly.


       6             Do I have a motion on this bill?


       7             MR. CLARK:  Move to grant the waiver.


       8             MR. SHAD:  Second.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and second


      10        on the amendment that we grant -- I guess it's


      11        an amendment, correct?  Is that what you're


      12        doing?


      13             MS. ELLER:  Yes.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  I have a motion and


      15        second on the amendment to grant the waiver.


      16             All in favor of the amendment signal by


      17        saying aye.


      18             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  All opposed.


      20             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment carries.


      22             MR. CLARK:  Move the bill as amended.


      23             MR. SHAD:  Second.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and second


      25        on 2007-1308 as amended.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Seeing no speakers, open the ballot and


       2        record the vote.


       3             (Committee ballot opened.)


       4             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


       6             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


       7             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       8             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


       9             (Committee ballot closed.)


      10             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      12        approved 2007-1308.


      13             Thank you very much for being here.


      14             Committee members, top of page 9,


      15        2007-1310.  We'll open that public hearing.


      16             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue it.


      17             2007-1311.  We'll open that public hearing.


      18             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      19        public hearing.


      20             2007-1312.  We'll open that public


      21        hearing.


      22             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      23        public hearing.


      24             2007-1350.  We'll open that public hearing.


      25             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        public hearing.


       2             We are on page 10.  We'll take up item 31


       3        in a few minutes.


       4             Item 32, 2008-23.  We'll open that public


       5        hearing.


       6             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


       7        public hearing.


       8             Item 33, 2008-25.  We'll open that public


       9        hearing.  We will --


      10             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      11        public hearing.


      12             And it may be marked closed, but we're


      13        going to continue it at the applicant's request.


      14             Item 34, 2008-27.  We'll open that public


      15        hearing.


      16             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      17        public hearing.


      18             Committee members, we're on page 11,


      19        item 35, 2008-40.  We'll open that public


      20        hearing and continue that public hearing until


      21        April 1st.  That's an appeal.


      22             Item 36, 2008-41.  We will open that public


      23        hearing.


      24             We have one speaker, Wyman Duggan.


      25             (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good afternoon, Mr. Duggan.


       2        How are you?


       3             MR. DUGGAN:  I'm fine, Mr. Chairman.  Thank


       4        you.  How are you?


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good.


       6             MR. DUGGAN:  Wyman Duggan, 1301 Riverplace


       7        Boulevard, Suite 1500.


       8             This is a PUD that is a follow-on to a land


       9        use amendment that was approved a couple of


      10        years ago actually.  We worked closely with


      11        Councilwoman Jones on this matter.  She had a


      12        community meeting the week of -- I believe the


      13        night of February 21st, and the community has


      14        been in support, she has been in support.  I


      15        know she's not here tonight, but I have not


      16        gotten any sense from her that she is anything


      17        other than in support of this application.


      18             I'm available for questions.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you,


      20        Mr. Duggan.  Appreciate it.


      21             Seeing no other speakers, we'll close that


      22        public hearing and go to our Planning


      23        Department.


      24             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, members of the


      25        committee, there is several conditions that are





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        part of the amendment to this bill.


       2             Condition number 1, "The development shall


       3        be subject to the original legal description


       4        dated December 17, 2007."


       5             Number 2, "The development shall be subject


       6        to the original written description dated


       7        December 17, 2007."


       8             Number 3, "The development shall be subject


       9        to the original site plan dated January 2nd,


      10        2007."


      11             Condition number 4, "The development site


      12        plan shall be subject to the review and approval


      13        of the Development Services Division pursuant to


      14        their memorandum dated February 1st, 2008, or as


      15        otherwise approved by the Planning and


      16        Development Department."


      17             Number 5, "The garage/car wash amenities


      18        shall be set back a minimum of 60 feet from any


      19        property line."


      20             Number 6, "Light fixtures shall be recessed


      21        and shielded to direct light downward and to


      22        prevent glare and/or excessive light onto


      23        surrounding property.


      24             "Footcandles shall not exceed one


      25        footcandle at the property line abutting any





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        single-family-zoned property.


       2             "All light fixtures in the parking area


       3        shall be limited to 18 feet in height."


       4             Condition number 7, "At the time of


       5        verification of substantial compliance, a


       6        landscape plan shall be submitted for review and


       7        approval of the Planning and Development


       8        Department.


       9             "All existing trees greater than four


      10        inches DBH within a 20-foot uncomplementary land


      11        use buffer shall be preserved.


      12             "Additional evergreen trees, live oak,


      13        and/or southern magnolia shall be required to be


      14        planted so that there is at least one four-inch


      15        DBH tree for every 25 linear feet of


      16        uncomplementary land use boundary."


      17             Number 8, "An 8-foot-high, 95 percent fence


      18        made of wood, PVC, or other composite fence


      19        materials shall be provided along the north


      20        property line.  It shall be installed to avoid


      21        preserved trees."


      22             Number 9, "A 95 percent opaque visual


      23        screen consisting of a brick, masonry or stucco


      24        wall at least 6 feet in height and 20 feet


      25        set back from the Bethel Road and Peter Drive





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        rights-of-way shall be provided.


       2             "In addition to interior perimeter


       3        landscaping requirements of the parking lot, at


       4        least one four-inch DBH tree shall be provided


       5        on the roadway side of the wall for every


       6        50 linear feet frontage."


       7             Number 10, "Noise attenuation for


       8        residential uses that abut limited access


       9        right-of-way shall be provided to berms and


      10        landscaping, or brick, masonry or stucco wall,


      11        or any combination thereof, subject to the


      12        review and approval of the Planning and


      13        Development Department."


      14             Number 11 and finally, "The monument signs


      15        shall be externally illuminated and limited to a


      16        maximum height of eight feet."


      17             Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you,


      19        Mr. Crofts.


      20             So that was all in the form of an


      21        amendment.  Do I have a motion on the


      22        amendment?


      23             MR. WEBB:  Move the amendment.


      24             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        amendment to 2008-41.


       2             Seeing no discussion, all in favor of the


       3        amendment signal by saying aye.


       4             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  All opposed.


       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment carries.


       8             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended.


       9             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


      11        2008-41 as amended.


      12             Mr. Duggan, I should have asked you if you


      13        agree with all those conditions.


      14             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  I had a feeling you did.  I


      16        appreciate that.


      17             Seeing no discussion on the bill as moved,


      18        open the ballot and record the vote.


      19             (Committee ballot opened.)


      20             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      21             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


      23             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      25             (Committee ballot closed.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       3        approved 2008-41.


       4             MR. DUGGAN:  Thank you.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       6             Committee members, we're on item 37,


       7        2008-42.  We'll open that public hearing.


       8             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


       9        public hearing with no further action.


      10             Item 38 and 39 are companion rezonings.


      11        We'll go ahead and open both of them up at the


      12        same time.  2008-43 and -44 are opened.


      13             I have two speakers, Mr. Paul Harden --


      14        actually one speaker on each bill.


      15             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Harden, good evening.


      17             MR. HARDEN:  These are in Ms. Jones'


      18        district.  Do you want to wait until she comes


      19        down to -- she's in support of them; the


      20        Planning Department is not; the Planning


      21        Commission is.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm fine waiting.  We've got


      23        several that are waiting.  I'm happy to --


      24             MR. HARDEN:  Yeah, I'd rather wait.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  I'll just keep it





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        open for now and come back to it in a few


       2        minutes.


       3             A whole bunch of going back to.


       4             Okay.  Committee, page 12, 2008-44.  We'll


       5        open that public hearing.  It's also in


       6        Councilwoman Jones' district.


       7             I'm sorry.  That's the one I have already


       8        opened.  Thank you.  Sorry.  I'll catch up here.


       9             2008-45.  We will open that public


      10        hearing.  We have one speaker, Rhonda Griffin.


      11             Ms. Griffin, if you could please come


      12        forward.


      13             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good afternoon.


      15             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good afternoon.


      16             My name is Rhonda Griffin, and I reside at


      17        11597 Alta Circle.


      18             I'm requesting a waiver of road frontage to


      19        allow me to add a third dwelling on my


      20        property.  We have two acres of land there.  My


      21        daughter is currently separated, and I would


      22        like to move her mobile home onto that


      23        property.  She has two small children and needs


      24        our help.


      25             There are other properties on Alta Circle





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that do not meet the one acre per dwelling


       2        requirement.  Across the street from me there


       3        are two dwellings on a half-acre lot, and in


       4        2007 an administrative deviation was approved


       5        for property that was located at 2677 Alta


       6        Circle, allowing them to put a second dwelling


       7        on that property.


       8             What we would ultimately like to do is to


       9        subdivide our property and give each one of our


      10        children a half acre of land for them to build a


      11        home on.  And in order to do that, I have to go


      12        through this, I guess, waiver of road frontage.


      13        And then I'm looking for an administrative


      14        deviation from what I understand.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      16             Seeing no questions or no other speakers,


      17        we'll close that public hearing and go to the


      18        Planning Department for their input, please.


      19             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      20             Through the Chair and committee members,


      21        ordinance 2008-45 seeks a waiver of road


      22        frontage from 240 feet to 0 feet to allow for


      23        three residences on the subject property off of


      24        Alta Circle East, which is an unimproved


      25        right-of-way private road.  It's a dirt road.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Staff has reviewed this.  There previously


       2        was an application back in '96 which reduced the


       3        road frontage to allow relief for the two


       4        existing residences.  Now we're seeing another


       5        application, which is further intensifying the


       6        use of the property.


       7             We feel it is conflicting, not only with


       8        the health, safety, and welfare issues for


       9        access and making sure that this property is


      10        easily accessible, but it also conflicts with


      11        the underlying zoning district.  And that is one


      12        acre per dwelling unit.  There are three


      13        proposed acres.


      14             They do have a companion administrative


      15        deviation which seeks to reduce the lot area for


      16        that.  However, in regards to the waiver


      17        criteria, we do feel that this is, again, based


      18        on a desire to reduce costs and improving the


      19        road to City standards, also circumventing


      20        subdivision regulations with the additional


      21        third unit on the property.


      22             Although the parcel itself isn't being


      23        subdivided, there will be three dwelling units


      24        on that individual parcel.


      25             Again, we feel it would alter the character





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of the area, again, and interfere with and


       2        injure the rights of surrounding property


       3        owners.


       4             (Ms. Lee enters the proceedings.)


       5             MR. KELLY:  Alta Circle East is an


       6        unimproved private road, so they do have access


       7        to that, which does provide access out to the


       8        Yellow Bluff/Alta Road roadway, but we do feel


       9        that this is contradictory to ensuring the


      10        health, safety, and welfare and recommend denial


      11        of the application.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you,


      13        Mr. Kelly.


      14             Based on the Planning Department report, do


      15        I have a motion on the amendment?


      16             MR. WEBB:  Move to grant.


      17             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion to grant the waiver


      19        of road frontage.  I have a second.


      20             Any discussion on the motion?


      21             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let the record reflect that


      23        Councilwoman Lee is here.


      24             Good afternoon.


      25             Seeing no discussion on the amendment, all





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        in favor signal by saying aye.


       2             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  All opposed.


       4             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment carries.


       6             MS. ELLER:  Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Eller.


       8             MS. ELLER:  If the committee would be


       9        willing to just provide a little bit of an


      10        explanation in granting the waiver in rebuttal


      11        to the Planning Department report because the


      12        only substantial competent evidence you have so


      13        far is the testimony from the Planning


      14        Department and some information provided by the


      15        applicant, so that would be helpful to the


      16        record.


      17             MR. WEBB:  Thank you, Ms. Eller.


      18             Number one, the road is unimproved.  It


      19        seems to me it's a rural residential area.  The


      20        reliance upon City services is a minimum, is at


      21        the minimum at least.


      22             I think, despite the recommendation of the


      23        Planning Department -- I grant them great


      24        deference.  I think the equities, however, in


      25        this particular matter outweigh the legal





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        considerations.


       2             Again, in great deference to the Planning


       3        Department, I think the explanation she provided


       4        for the need for the waiver, the equities


       5        outweigh the Planning Department recommendation


       6        of this matter.


       7             MR. CLARK:  Second.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  We may have already


       9        indicated, but let's --


      10             All in favor of the amendment to grant the


      11        waiver signal by saying aye.


      12             MR. CLARK:  Aye.


      13             MR. CORRIGAN:  Aye.


      14             MS. LEE:  Aye.


      15             MR. WEBB:  Aye.


      16             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Aye.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  All opposed.


      18             MR. SHAD:  Aye.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment carries.


      20             MR. WEBB:  Move the bill as amended.


      21             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


      23        2008-45 as amended.


      24             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot and


      25        record the vote.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. SHAD:  Question.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm sorry.  Councilmember


       3        Shad.


       4             MR. SHAD:  Thank you.


       5             Through the Chairman to our staff, what was


       6        the part about the lots not being subdivided?


       7        It's going to be three units on one undivided


       8        lot?  How do you know where they're placed on


       9        that?  How does that -- driveways?  What -- it's


      10        just -- throwing a trailer on a piece of


      11        property that already has two other homes on


      12        it --


      13             I know it feels good to help out a


      14        constituent that has, you know, a family need,


      15        but at the end of the day, we're allowing


      16        someone to put a trailer on a piece of property


      17        that's already got two homes on it, dwellings.


      18        I just wanted -- you're going pretty quick on


      19        here.


      20             I just thought -- I was concerned about,


      21        how is it laid out site plan wise as far as


      22        driveways and where the properties are?  Are


      23        they on septic tanks?  Where are the -- is it on


      24        City sewer?  Where is the septic going to be?


      25        How does all that get approved?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. KELLY:  In our evaluation -- again,


       2        this is -- let me clarify.  It's not a


       3        subdivision, so I don't believe there's intent


       4        to circumvent the subdivision regulations, but


       5        putting, you know, each individual dwelling unit


       6        on the lot would otherwise have to comply with


       7        the required setbacks of the RR zoning district.


       8             They are proposing on the site plan that


       9        was submitted as part of their application -- it


      10        looks like they have about 360-odd feet of


      11        frontage on Alta Circle, the private unimproved


      12        roadway, the dirt road.  And so I guess the --


      13        you've got kind of a single-family home on the


      14        southern portion -- a mobile -- I'm sorry -- a


      15        mobile home on the southern portion and a brick


      16        house on the northern half of the property.


      17             This is going to be at -- located -- the


      18        house will be -- the new home will be located at


      19        the southeast corner of the property, really


      20        kind of not behind the mobile home but further


      21        back and further south away from it.


      22             I can --


      23             MR. SHAD:  Is it on a well or septic tank?


      24             MR. KELLY:  All of this, I believe, is on


      25        well and septic out here.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. SHAD:  Okay.  And all that would be


       2        approved by the State Health Department when


       3        they go pull those and make sure they can --


       4             MR. KELLY:  Correct.


       5             They would need to meet all the licensing


       6        and permitting requirements of the Health


       7        Department in order to meet septic tank


       8        requirements.


       9             MR. SHAD:  Well, one like this, it would be


      10        nice to have the district councilperson here


      11        that probably knows the area better, but I'll


      12        probably -- he'll make his comment at the full


      13        council, I guess.


      14             Okay.  That's all I have.  Thanks.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  I have a question of


      16        Planning.


      17             Doesn't the applicant -- doesn't -- if


      18        they're going to do it for the family members,


      19        don't they have the right to do that anyway and


      20        don't really need the waiver and potentially


      21        address -- I mean, Councilmember Shad has got a


      22        good point.


      23             MR. KELLY:  That requirement -- and that


      24        was what we approved -- we haven't initiated


      25        that in a land development regulation, per se,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to date.  However, the comp plan was amended to


       2        reflect the state statute change that allows for


       3        the family homestead partitions in the


       4        agricultural land use category, but this is RR


       5        zoning.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


       7             Okay.  I don't see other speakers, so open


       8        the ballot and record the vote.


       9             (Committee ballot opened.)


      10             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      11             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      12             MS. LEE:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      14             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      15             MR. SHAD:  (Votes nay.)


      16             (Committee ballot closed.)


      17             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, one nay.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      19        approved 2008-45.


      20             Thank you.


      21             MR. GRIFFIN:  Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  The following items will be


      23        deferred:  2008-106, -107, and -108.  -109 and


      24        -110 are also deferred.


      25             We are on item number 46 on page 13,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        2008- -- Councilmember Lee.


       2             MS. LEE:  Mr. Chairman, I apologize.  I was


       3        actually in my office and got caught up, so I


       4        was late.


       5             I had a bill.  I just wanted to know, did


       6        you defer it -- that I wanted to take up?


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  We waited for you to arrive.


       8             MS. LEE:  Oh, okay.  I just wanted to ask


       9        if you would please take it up.  I promised the


      10        people that I would take it up today.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We'll get to you in


      12        just one minute.


      13             We're on item 46, 2008-128.  We will open


      14        that public hearing.


      15             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public


      16        hearing.


      17             MR. SHAD:  Move the bill.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion.  Do I have


      19        a second?


      20             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


      22        2008-128.


      23             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Inaudible.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do we need an explanation?


      25             Any questions?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Councilman Yarborough.


       2             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Thank you.


       3             Just to clarify, Ms. Eller.  Is this what


       4        we discussed in the Shade meeting that we had a


       5        few weeks ago?


       6             MS. ELLER:  I believe that's what Cindy


       7        Laquidara discussed.  I was not at the Shade


       8        meeting.  I apologize.  This bill is an


       9        amendment to chapter 656.


      10             Currently, in our ordinance code, we have a


      11        requirement that these adult entertainment


      12        facilities move by 2010, and we're currently


      13        involved in litigation.


      14             And as a settlement of that litigation, if


      15        the City Council approves extending that


      16        amortization, meaning that they have to move to


      17        2012, giving them two more years, it will


      18        negate -- we won't have to go forward with the


      19        trial and hire experts, and the predicted cost


      20        for that would be about $200,000.


      21             So that was the reason why OGC requested


      22        this change as part of -- to settle that


      23        lawsuit.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      25             Seeing no other speakers -- or no other





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        questions, open the ballot and record the vote.


       2             (Committee ballot opened.)


       3             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MS. LEE:  (Votes yea.)


       6             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


       7             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       8             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


       9             (Committee ballot closed.)


      10             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nays.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      12        approved 2008-128.


      13             The following items will be second and


      14        rereferred, beginning with item 47, 2008-135,


      15        -136, -137, -138, -139, -140, -141, -142, -143,


      16        -144, -145, -146, -147, -149, -170, and -171.


      17             Committee members, if you'll now go to


      18        page 8 with me, top of the page, two bills that


      19        we earlier delayed taking action on.


      20             We'll begin with 2007-1194.  We'll -- that


      21        public hearing is open.


      22             Seeing no speakers on that one, we'll close


      23        that public hearing.  Go to the Planning


      24        Department.


      25             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Through the Chair to the committee,


       2        ordinance 2007-1194 seeks a waiver of road


       3        frontage from the required eighty feet to


       4        zero feet.


       5             The subject property is located at the --


       6        essentially the terminus of the approved portion


       7        of Cathy Tripp Lane, between Old Plank Road and


       8        Jacksonville/Baldwin Rails to Trails.


       9             The subject property was originally


      10        recorded back in May of '97, and then it was


      11        subdivided and split back in 2001.  The access


      12        to the subject property is via, again, from the


      13        north terminus of Cathy Tripp Lane,


      14        approximately 2,100 feet further north.


      15             And while part of this is paved, the


      16        northern part that leads up to the subject


      17        property is unimproved and is a grass accessway


      18        or easement.


      19             Staff reviewed this essentially on the


      20        criteria.  We found that this was circumventing


      21        the requirements of the subdivision regulations


      22        with the further subdivision of the property


      23        over time.


      24             Again, we felt that this would have a


      25        detrimental effect on the public, health, safety





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        and welfare with regards to emergency vehicle


       2        access and having no improved, paved surface in


       3        order to access the property.


       4             We recommended denial of the subject


       5        waiver.


       6             Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       8             Councilwoman Lee.


       9             MS. LEE:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Through


      10        the Chair, if I might, to Mr. Kelly.


      11             Mr. Kelly, I visited the area and there was


      12        no opposition.  And the person that's actually


      13        building a home is a fireman.  They intend to


      14        make improvements to the -- exactly what you're


      15        talking about.  And I'm wondering if it would


      16        be -- before Tuesday night, if you could contact


      17        them and see what improvements they're going to


      18        make to that road and to see if that would


      19        help.


      20             But I went out there and, folks, it's --


      21        it's a street with a lot of homes, and it's like


      22        all family.  A lot of the people grew up in the


      23        area.  And it's a young man who's actually a


      24        developer.  You know, that grew -- you know, his


      25        parents.  I mean, it's like a big -- and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        everybody knows everybody.  It's a nice area.


       2             You know, they have nice property, and the


       3        fireman who wants to build on the property, you


       4        know, they're willing to do whatever needs to be


       5        done to grant it.


       6             But I felt -- after I went out there, you


       7        know, and I looked, I felt pretty secure that


       8        emergency vehicles could get through.  And the


       9        mere fact that the gentleman works with the fire


      10        and rescue, certainly he knew the importance of


      11        safety, you know, and being able to make sure


      12        that vehicular traffic, you know, could move


      13        where it would be safe.


      14             And I just really felt pretty good about


      15        it.  You know, I looked and nobody is opposed to


      16        it.  They are all for it.


      17             But I was wondering if Mr. Kelly could


      18        contact -- Mr. Silcox would be the person.  And


      19        I think he told me they were going to make some


      20        improvements, and I'm not sure what they were


      21        doing as it related to the road.  So maybe we


      22        could come up with some language to put in there


      23        to satisfy the Planning Department, but I would


      24        ask that the committee consider --


      25             Thank you, Mr. Kelly.  Those are just some





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        comments I wanted to make to you, sir.


       2             Mr. Chairman, if the committee would


       3        consider granting this, allowing the people in


       4        that area to --


       5             MR. CLARK:  Second.


       6             MS. LEE:  Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and second


       8        to grant the waiver.


       9             Did you need input from Mr. Kelly?


      10             MR. KELLY:  Yes.  To the Chair, point well


      11        taken.  I appreciate the comments, Councilmember


      12        Lee.


      13             We do have some suggested conditions which


      14        I know the applicant is not here to respond to,


      15        but we can contact him.  And if we can


      16        incorporate these conditions into the amendment


      17        for the bill, then -- and we will contact him


      18        and make sure that he is okay with it prior to


      19        next Tuesday, then I think we could move forward


      20        in a favorable fashion.  So --


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  You want to read the


      22        conditions that you're interested in including?


      23             MR. KELLY:  Certainly.


      24             Condition 1 would state, "The address shall


      25        be clearly marked at the existing terminus of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the approved portion of the Cathy Tripp


       2        right-of-way."


       3             Condition 2, "The applicant shall install a


       4        20-foot-wide stabilized travel surface


       5        consisting of either coquina or gravel material


       6        at the terminus of the improved portion of the


       7        Cathy Tripp right-of-way up to the new dwelling


       8        with roadside swales that provide for positive


       9        drainage."


      10             Condition 3, "The subject property shall


      11        not be further subdivided unless the extension


      12        of Cathy Tripp Lane is brought into compliance


      13        with City standards."


      14             Condition 4 is more or less not a condition


      15        related to the road frontage but with the


      16        building construction requirements.  This is in


      17        a noise zone, and so -- the subject property is


      18        located in noise zone B, a 65 decibel


      19        requirement, and the proposed residential


      20        development must be designed and constructed


      21        for an average noise level reduction of


      22        30 decibels.


      23             Based on those four conditions, the


      24        department is in a posture to support it.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Councilmember Lee,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        did your move of approval include those four


       2        conditions?


       3             MS. LEE:  I would suggest that if we could


       4        get in touch with him to make sure that's all


       5        right and then have that prepared for Tuesday


       6        night.


       7             I think they're reasonable, and it


       8        certainly doesn't appear to be much of an


       9        economic hardship, I don't think.


      10             The last one, though, when he talks about


      11        the decibels and the noise, you know, it's


      12        almost a rural area, you know, and the only


      13        thing behind it is -- you know, obviously it


      14        used to be a lot of animals kind of, but you


      15        have the -- what's that trail that Alberta Hipps


      16        built when I was here?


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Rails to Trails?


      18             MS. LEE:  Yeah, where people -- it's right


      19        behind there.  And then you have, like, a farm


      20        across the street and -- and you've got


      21        Commonwealth.  I mean, it's -- all of the


      22        properties are large.


      23             MR. KELLY:  I mean, we would be willing to


      24        delete that condition.  It's really not relevant


      25        to the request in the application.  It's a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        requirement under part 10 of the zoning code.


       2             MS. LEE:  What does it mean, though, when


       3        you -- does it mean -- I mean, why did that area


       4        become that?  Because of a lot of noise?  Was it


       5        the train tracks?


       6             MR. KELLY:  It's related to the airports


       7        and the military utilizing -- the Outlying Field


       8        over at --


       9             MS. LEE:  Oh.  Well, I certainly wouldn't


      10        want to deter anything from that.  I think you


      11        should get with them.  I wouldn't delete


      12        anything right now.  You know, I don't think


      13        that's going to cause a problem.


      14             (Cell phone interruption.)


      15             MS. LEE:  I don't know whose purse that is


      16        right there.


      17             MR. SHAD:  It's not mine.


      18             MS. LEE:  It certainly isn't mine.


      19             MR. SHAD:  It's not mine.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well --


      21             MS. LEE:  Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  To Councilwoman Lee, you're


      23        willing to include those conditions in your


      24        amendment?


      25             And I will tell you and get Ms. Eller to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        confirm, I think it's critical that we include


       2        them at this level, and if we need to, pull it


       3        out.


       4             MS. LEE:  Go ahead.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       6             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  So her motion included the


       8        four conditions as recited by the Planning


       9        Department.


      10             MS. LEE:  I would say three for sure.  He


      11        was willing to delete it.  And after he talks to


      12        them and explain it to them, I could add it back


      13        Tuesday night if that's okay.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Eller, I think


      15        procedurally, it's more difficult to add it than


      16        it is to take it out Tuesday night, isn't it?


      17             MS. ELLER:  Actually, I believe it's a


      18        requirement of the zoning code already.


      19             MS. LEE:  Go ahead.


      20             MS. ELLER:  So it's not necessary to keep


      21        it in at all.


      22             MS. LEE:  Okay.


      23             MS. ELLER:  I mean, it's already in another


      24        part of the zoning code, so I wouldn't worry


      25        about it.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       3             MS. ELLER:  We probably just want to let


       4        him know just so he's aware, so he doesn't start


       5        building something and then come to find out


       6        when he goes to get a permit that there's a


       7        noise requirement.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


       9             We have a motion and a second.


      10             All in favor of the amendment signal by


      11        saying aye.


      12             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All opposed.


      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment carries.


      16             MR. CLARK:  Move the bill as amended.


      17             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Second.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


      19        2007-1194 as amended.


      20             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot and


      21        record the vote.


      22             (Committee ballot opened.)


      23             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      25             MS. LEE:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


       4             (Committee ballot closed.)


       5             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nays.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       7        approved 2007-1194.


       8             2007-1215, that public hearing is open.


       9             Mr. Hainline, I have a card from you.


      10        T.R. Hainline.


      11             (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)


      12             MR. HAINLINE:  T.R. Hainline, 1301


      13        Riverplace Boulevard.


      14             There's a resolution of this matter which


      15        Mr. Harden and I have worked on, and -- but we


      16        would like an opportunity to explain it to


      17        Ms. Lee and make sure she's comfortable with it,


      18        so we'll go ahead and ask for a deferral at this


      19        time.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  I will grant


      21        that.  We'll continue that public hearing with


      22        no further action.


      23             Thank you, Mr. Hainline.


      24             We are now going --


      25             Mr. Harden has asked us on page 11, bottom





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of the page -- in reference to Councilwoman


       2        Jones not being here, I am happy to defer this a


       3        cycle.


       4             Mr. Harden, if you --


       5             MR. HARDEN:  I don't want it deferred.


       6        She's upstairs working.  If, when she gets back,


       7        she would like to rehear it, I'll be happy to do


       8        so.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  She has apparently submitted


      10        an excusal.


      11             MR. HARDEN:  In the last 20 minutes?


      12             MS. LAHMEUR:  Yes.


      13             MR. HARDEN:  Huh.  Never mind.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Would you like --


      15             MR. HARDEN:  I saw her up there.  Okay.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Would you like to continue?


      17             MR. HARDEN:  No.  I'm ready to go.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  You have three


      19        minutes.  Actually, we're talking about two


      20        different bills.  You can take three minutes on


      21        each, or are you going --


      22             MR. HARDEN:  Okay.  I'll go quicker than


      23        that, I think.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      25             MR. HARDEN:  These are parcels of land that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        are located in Ms. Jones' district.  My client


       2        came to own them by happenstance.  He loaned a


       3        developer or builder $250,000 to renovate two


       4        quadriplexes.  The --


       5             (Ms. Jones enters the proceedings.)


       6             MR. HARDEN:  Well, here's Ms. Jones now.


       7        See, I told you she didn't submit an excusal.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead.  She's here.


       9             MR. HARDEN:  Me, I wanted to wait, but the


      10        chairman wouldn't.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Tempting, but I won't.


      12             MR. HARDEN:  That was just too easy, wasn't


      13        it?


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yeah.


      15             MR. HARDEN:  I'll wait a second until she


      16        sits.


      17             MS. JONES:  Go ahead.


      18             MR. HARDEN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      19             As I indicated, these are two parcels of


      20        land located in Ms. Jones' district that are


      21        currently built in quadriplexes.  My client came


      22        to own them by happenstance.  He loaned a


      23        builder $250,000 to renovate these two pieces of


      24        property, took a mortgage on the property.  The


      25        money was not, in fact, put into the property.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Unfortunately, the builder died.  And when they


       2        started to settle his estate, the $250,000 was


       3        gone.  So he took a deed in lieu of


       4        foreclosure -- that's funny.  Not funny.


       5             But he took a deed in lieu of foreclosure,


       6        so he got them not wanting to be in the


       7        development business.


       8             He then said, "Look, well, I'm going to go


       9        ahead and renovate the sites and bring them up


      10        to code."


      11             When he went in to pull the permits, he


      12        found out that, although they are designed


      13        medium density residential on the comp plan and,


      14        indeed, surrounded by RMD-E zoned property, it


      15        was zoned RLD-G.  And so we had to file these


      16        applications to change the zoning to RMD-B to


      17        allow him to renovate the sites.


      18             Lo and behold, the Planning Department


      19        looked at it and said, "We have a neighborhood


      20        plan that we did five years ago, and we want


      21        this to be a 180-unit complex.  We want all


      22        40 of the owners in this area to get together


      23        and hold hands and find one builder and one


      24        developer."


      25             Unfortunately, all 40 of the people don't





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        want to do that and, of course, my client


       2        doesn't want -- he wants to go ahead and


       3        renovate his.


       4             The proposal of the Planning Department is


       5        to change the property to a density twice what


       6        we are proposing.  And, in fact, the density


       7        surrounding it is almost three times the RMD-E


       8        to the RMD-B.


       9             What we would like to do is renovate these


      10        two quadriplexes, put them back on the rental


      11        market.  I had discussions with Ms. Jones and


      12        she understands where we're headed with the


      13        project.


      14             There are a number of units out there in


      15        poor repair.  There are a number of units that


      16        have been repaired that are back in shape.  We


      17        would like to move forward and renovate them to


      18        put them back on the market.


      19             I understand the concept of the Planning


      20        Department.  Actually, the only way that could


      21        be done would be the City to condemn the whole


      22        piece, sell it to a developer, which is now


      23        illegal according to state law, to buy blighted


      24        land and put it in some other development


      25        parcel.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             So I believe Ms. Jones will indicate that


       2        she's in favor of letting us move forward.  We


       3        would request to allow us to develop it exactly


       4        the way it is now but upgrade it so that it can


       5        be rented.


       6             And I'll be happy to answer any questions.


       7             (Mr. Yarborough assumes the Chair.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Harden.


       9             And seeing no other speakers, we will close


      10        the public hearing.


      11             Discussion?


      12             Or we'll get the report from staff first,


      13        please.


      14             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      15             Through the Chair to committee members,


      16        application for rezoning R-2008-43 seeks a


      17        rezoning from the RLD-G, residential low density


      18        zoning district, to the RMD-B, residential


      19        medium density zoning district.


      20             The basis, fundamentally, for the denial of


      21        this application is the result of the


      22        neighborhood action plan which was -- is not


      23        quite four years old.  It was adopted --


      24        ordinance 2004-707, in September of --


      25        originally September of 2004.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             So we're essentially looking at this in


       2        terms of the criteria.  We felt that the subject


       3        property, again, led to the conditions of the


       4        neighborhood and that it contributed to the


       5        blight in the area.  And the neighborhood action


       6        plan, in essence, recommended removal of these


       7        older quadriplexes.


       8             This was, I guess, ongoing building code


       9        violations that have continued to occur within


      10        the neighborhood, and there's multiple similar


      11        buildings that are currently vacant within the


      12        neighborhood.


      13             So, in essence, the nonconforming uses are


      14        going away within this development.  And clearly


      15        the intent of the zoning code is to have those


      16        nonconforming uses go away over time and clearly


      17        not to reestablish something that's


      18        contributed -- a contributing blighting factor


      19        on the neighborhood.


      20             And so -- I mean, the redevelopment in some


      21        sense is good, but it is the result of code


      22        enforcement.  The current quadriplexes in the


      23        area are currently unoccupied.  We found that,


      24        based on the comments from the Community


      25        Planning Division and the neighborhood action





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        plan, that the renovation of these multifamily


       2        units is not consistent with the neighborhood


       3        action plan and would further continue the


       4        conditions in the area.


       5             Staff has recommended approval based on


       6        those criteria.


       7             MR. HARDEN:  Actually, you recommended


       8        denial.


       9             MR. KELLY:  I'm sorry.  Denial.  Thank you.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yeah.


      11             MR. HARDEN:  And it's also 2004 on the


      12        plan -- -03, not 2004.  Sorry.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Crofts.


      14             MR. CROFTS:  Just to add, I do have the


      15        neighborhood action plan if anybody is


      16        interested here with me.


      17             The plan, obviously, took a very bold and


      18        aggressive approach to try to improve this


      19        particular area, and it has not quite -- the


      20        recommendation has not been realized at this


      21        particular point.


      22             I went out there today just to visit the


      23        site, and the property is irregularly zoned.


      24        There are some of these fourplexes that are


      25        properly zoned in the RMD-E, and then there are





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        some that are not in the RLD-G, so the property


       2        is split zoned right now.


       3             The one -- some of these that have been


       4        actually in the correct zoning have been


       5        renovated, so there is some action taking place


       6        to improve the area.


       7             If you look at the plan -- going back to


       8        the plan, and you look at the statistics and you


       9        look at the evaluation of the area, you will


      10        find that it's been a harbored area -- an area


      11        of harboring crime and other issues that have


      12        been detrimental to the community.


      13             And there was a strategic way to move


      14        forward with first improving the Lorenzo Court


      15        area and then making that as a replacement


      16        housing for the Washington Estates development


      17        that's next door to it, and that that would be


      18        an appropriate transition.


      19             But we have not been able to get there


      20        yet.  The City has not been able to get there at


      21        this particular point.


      22             And I guess what is happening now, we've


      23        got a problem.  We're really in a dilemma, and


      24        particularly with these particular properties,


      25        and there's no other way to continue to improve,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        at least through an interim process, without


       2        this particular rezoning.


       3             And I just thought I'd share that with


       4        you.


       5             (Mr. Corrigan resumes the Chair.)


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you very much.


       7             Councilwoman -- I'm sorry.


       8             Ms. Eller.


       9             MS. ELLER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      10             I believe on your agenda, at least on my


      11        agenda on this bill, 2008-43, it says Planning


      12        Commission and Planning Department denied, but I


      13        believe the Planning Commission approved both


      14        2008-43 and 2008-44 at the meeting last


      15        Thursday.  I just wanted to put that in the


      16        record.


      17             MR. HARDEN:  Eight to nothing they


      18        recommended approval.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you very much.


      20        I appreciate it.


      21             Councilwoman Jones, it's in your district.


      22        Do you want to speak on it?


      23             MS. JONES:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      24             This is one area that I have been trying to


      25        work in over my tenure on the council, and that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        neighborhood action plan was actually one of


       2        first pieces of legislation that came through


       3        after I was elected.  And the community has


       4        expressed a dire -- they're in dire straits over


       5        there where the crime is something that's


       6        serious.


       7             We have had a number of owners of those


       8        properties over the years to come in and say


       9        they're going to do something with it.  They'll


      10        do -- throw some paint on it and then turn


      11        around and flip it and we end up in a -- the


      12        same predicament that we were in before.


      13             I have sat down with Mr. Harden -- and I do


      14        recognize that the market has changed, and the


      15        biggest drawback that we have is that the State


      16        did change our ability to condemn properties and


      17        for the City to step in and be able to work to


      18        positively improve blighted areas in the manner


      19        that the neighborhood action plan really saw us


      20        being able to move forward in.


      21             And so it is with a bit of frustration that


      22        I will support this because I know that we have


      23        been waiting a long time.  We do have a number


      24        of those properties over there that are in the


      25        same situation, irregularly zoned, and they're





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        just sitting there.


       2             But I did want to ask staff or to legal, is


       3        there anything that we can do to ensure that --


       4        I know they -- once they cut the lights off,


       5        then it goes back to the previous -- it went


       6        back to the previous zoning.


       7             Would that be the same case here?


       8             MR. KELLY:  No.  Again, if this zoning is


       9        approved and the buildings are then left vacant


      10        for a period of longer than a year or more, they


      11        could be reoccupied at any time back at their


      12        original density, the RMD-B zoning.


      13             MS. JONES:  Okay.  Thank you.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Councilwoman Lee.


      15             MS. LEE:  Thank you.  Where is Lorenzo


      16        Court?


      17             MS. JONES:  Moncrief.


      18             This used -- this is the portion -- it was


      19        originally in 8 before you left, I think.


      20             MS. LEE:  That's what I thought.


      21             Where?


      22             MS. JONES:  Right at Moncrief and Cleveland


      23        Road.  You have the quads next to Washington


      24        Heights, next to Washington Estates, and then


      25        the overpass going over to Lonnie Miller Park.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. LEE:  Wait a minute.


       2             MS. JONES:  Come down -- if you come from


       3        Soutel, make a right turn on Moncrief --


       4             MS. LEE:  Yeah, but I'm going there.  I'm


       5        at Washington Heights.


       6             MS. JONES:  Okay.  Washington Heights.


       7             MS. LEE:  Then I'm going towards Soutel.


       8             MS. JONES:  No, you want to go --


       9             MS. LEE:  Is it across the Rutledge Pearson


      10        Bridge?


      11             MS. JONES:  No.  You want to go the other


      12        way.  If you're at Washington Heights --


      13             MS. LEE:  Yeah.


      14             MS. JONES:  -- it's right next to the


      15        apartment complex.


      16             MS. LEE:  Is it before Winton Drive?


      17             MS. JONES:  Before Winton.


      18             MS. LEE:  Those little things -- what you


      19        call them used to own Mr. Alexander?


      20             MS. JONES:  Yes.


      21             MS. LEE:  So what is being proposed here,


      22        then?


      23             MS. JONES:  That the zoning be changed to


      24        RMD-B and down from --


      25             MS. LEE:  Gee.  Why?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HARDEN:  Because the way they're


       2        built -- it's built into a quadriplex.  We want


       3        to renovate them, but the way they were built


       4        those many years ago, it's inconsistent with the


       5        RLD-G zoning.  So we're trying to fix them to


       6        leave them the way they are, quadriplexes.  But


       7        the RLD-G zoning doesn't allow that, and they


       8        won't allow us to pull permits to renovate them.


       9             MS. LEE:  Okay.  I'm hearing you, but I'm


      10        trying to understand.


      11             They face -- they're built -- Mr. Alexander


      12        used to own those.  So why can't a person go in


      13        and renovate them like they are unless they're


      14        trying to do something else.


      15             MS. JONES:  That's what he's asking to do.


      16             They can't do it because there is an


      17        irregularity -- there are irregularities in the


      18        zoning and the land use.


      19             MR. HARDEN:  When they zoned it, they


      20        didn't put it in the zoning category for what


      21        was built there.


      22             In other words, when it --


      23             MS. LEE:  That's because it wasn't there


      24        initially, right?


      25             MR. HARDEN:  No, it was there.  It was





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        built there as a quadriplex.


       2             MS. LEE:  Uh-huh.


       3             MR. HARDEN:  They did a comp plan


       4        designation of medium density residential.  The


       5        comp plan designation is accurate, but the


       6        zoning category -- in fact, the zoning category


       7        is inconsistent with the use.  The RLD-G is


       8        inconsistent with the use.  The RMD-B is what


       9        they're built right now, and they were built


      10        before they put that zoning on there.


      11             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Through the Chair, tell me


      12        again what is RMD-B.  I forgot.


      13             MR. HARDEN:  Residential medium density B,


      14        which is the lowest multifamily residential


      15        category.


      16             MS. LEE:  And what is G, RLD-G?


      17             MR. HARDEN:  RLD-G is residential low


      18        density G, which is the highest single-family


      19        designated category.


      20             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Yeah, I know where -- I


      21        thought that's where Lorenzo Court was.


      22             And all you-all are going to do is renovate


      23        them?


      24             MR. HARDEN:  Leave them just -- leave them


      25        quadriplexes and renovate.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. LEE:  Let me ask you this --


       2             MR. HARDEN:  We tried to renovate them, and


       3        we can't get permits because of the zoning


       4        inconsistencies.


       5             MS. LEE:  Okay.  The client that you're


       6        representing, once they're renovated, do they


       7        have a plan on tearing them down, trying to put


       8        something else up?  Does this open up for


       9        something else to be built?


      10             MR. HARDEN:  If you look around them, they


      11        are surrounded by RMD-E, which is three times


      12        more density.


      13             MS. LEE:  Mr. Harden, I understand that,


      14        but that's -- and it's no reflection on you


      15        because I know you're representing a client.


      16             MR. HARDEN:  Right.


      17             MS. LEE:  But there is an amazing amount of


      18        crime in that area.


      19             MR. HARDEN:  Well, we're trying to --


      20             MS. LEE:  I mean, out of control.  And if


      21        it were up to a lot of people, they would really


      22        level what's already there.


      23             My concern is -- because my district is


      24        right next door -- is that, if these people --


      25        your client is going to -- which I have no





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        problem with the renovation.  My concern is does


       2        your client plan on doing anything else with


       3        this property?


       4             MR. HARDEN:  Ms. Lee, if you -- they're


       5        both a third acre in size.  We're going to ten


       6        units per acre.  So they can't -- they can't


       7        zone it to more than four units per acre.


       8             MS. LEE:  That's not my question.


       9             MR. HARDEN:  Well, that's what's there


      10        now.  And so rather than rebuild it with the


      11        four units, we're going to renovate the four


      12        units and leave them the way they are.


      13             MS. LEE:  That's all I -- again -- and I


      14        guess through the Chair to -- no reflection on


      15        you, Mr. Harden, because I know you're doing


      16        your job and you're recommending your client.


      17             MR. HARDEN:  I don't take it as a


      18        reflection on me.


      19             MS. LEE:  And you have another client after


      20        this one is gone because you're good at what you


      21        do.  So this is not in any way to deter what


      22        you're trying to do.  I'm just trying to make


      23        sure that -- if this goes to this, does this


      24        mean that -- you could drop dead, you know, and


      25        your intentions could be well.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HARDEN:  I understand.


       2             MS. LEE:  But if it opens up, can somebody


       3        else come in and build another Washington


       4        Heights is what I'm trying to say.


       5             MR. HARDEN:  No.


       6             MS. LEE:  Does it open up -- through the


       7        Chair to Planning, what does this -- what could


       8        possibly happen?


       9             MR. KELLY:  Through the Chair to


      10        Councilmember Lee, the RMD-B zoning does allow


      11        for single-family zoning as well as


      12        quadriplexes, up to four units, on a


      13        7,000-square-foot lot.


      14             The way the subject property, I guess, is


      15        divided with the amount of frontage that it has


      16        on Lorenzo Court -- at least on -43 and the


      17        companion application next door, the -44 zoning,


      18        they could be -- again, given the amount of lot


      19        area, there could probably be eight units on


      20        each lot of probably a maximum of 16.


      21             If they ultimately decide to do something


      22        more than renovate, then they could potentially


      23        put two quadriplexes on each of these individual


      24        lots.


      25             MS. LEE:  And under the current zoning,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        they can't do that?


       2             MR. KELLY:  That's correct.


       3             The current zoning only allows


       4        single-family, which is a secondary zoning


       5        district in the MDR land use category.


       6             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       7             Mr. Harden, let me ask you a question,


       8        please.  A Mr. James Alexander used to own


       9        these.  Is this the same group?  Did he sell


      10        them?  Do you know what I'm talking about?


      11             MR. HARDEN:  Ms. Lee, I remember


      12        Mr. Alexander.  I don't know if he owned this or


      13        not.  My client got it as -- you were on the


      14        telephone when I was telling this.


      15             My client loaned some money to a guy who


      16        owned them, who was going to renovate them.  The


      17        guy died.  He had a mortgage and he took it back


      18        as a deed in lieu of foreclosure, and it was not


      19        Mr. Alexander.


      20             There are 30 people who own those units.


      21        Mr. Alexander, at one time, owned all of them.


      22        And they've been sold off to different people,


      23        and these two are owned by Mr. Shuman now.


      24             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Mr. Shuman does not intend


      25        to put a -- as they describe, that much of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        housing on that property, right?


       2             MR. HARDEN:  No.


       3             The Planning Department recommends, though,


       4        that they put 180 units here.  That's what our


       5        disagreement is.  They want it more dense.  We


       6        want to leave it less dense.


       7             MS. LEE:  That's not my question.  And


       8        again --


       9             MR. HARDEN:  That was your question.  You


      10        asked did my client intend to build anything


      11        else there, and I said no.  He wants to leave it


      12        at four units.  We're trying to renovate it at


      13        four units.  But because of the RLD-G, we can't


      14        pull permits.  So that's why we filed the


      15        application.


      16             MS. LEE:  So when Mr. Alexander renovated


      17        them before, how did he do it without having to


      18        change the zoning?  Because they have been


      19        renovated numerous times.


      20             MR. HARDEN:  Well, Denise, if you'll look


      21        at the map --


      22             MS. LEE:  Yeah.


      23             MR. HARDEN:  Ms. Lee.  Sorry.


      24             MS. LEE:  That's okay.  I've been called


      25        both.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HARDEN:  If you look around, most of


       2        them are zoned RMD-E --


       3             MS. LEE:  Okay.


       4             MR. HARDEN:  -- all the way around.  So


       5        those were -- those can be legally renovated.


       6             The few that are fronting on Moncrief are


       7        RLD-G, probably haven't been renovated since the


       8        comp plan went into effect in 1989.


       9             MS. LEE:  Okay.


      10             MR. HARDEN:  So some of them can be legal.


      11        Some of them are already R- -- are RMD-E.  And


      12        those can be legally renovated; the other ones


      13        can't.


      14             MS. LEE:  Okay.  So your client has no


      15        other motives than to just renovate them as they


      16        are?


      17             MR. HARDEN:  That's correct.


      18             MS. LEE:  Okay.  And if your client decided


      19        to do anything else other than what's there,


      20        would you still represent them?


      21             MR. HARDEN:  Well, there's nothing else he


      22        can do.  That's why I was trying to do the


      23        math.  I don't agree with Sean's math.


      24             I won't probably know him at that point,


      25        but he's been very clear on explaining to me





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        what he wants to do.  We spent a year going


       2        through this process to pull these permits and


       3        he's spent a lot of time, so I know that's his


       4        intention.


       5             But if you divide three into the RMD-E, we


       6        can't physically get more than four on there,


       7        and that's his intention.


       8             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Well -- and, again,


       9        Mr. Harden, this is certainly no reflection on


      10        you, and I really should have -- and I did not


      11        ask a lot of questions about this particular


      12        zoning is because it wasn't in my district, you


      13        know.  And that doesn't mean you can't, but it


      14        is -- when I saw Lorenzo Court, it hit a nerve


      15        because I knew that I used to have a lot of


      16        problems out there.


      17             I guess my concern is that -- I just want


      18        to say to Mr. Shuman that I hope that he will


      19        keep his word and he won't, you know, do


      20        anything, you know, because there are some --


      21        there are some serious problems.


      22             I wish they could level what's out there.


      23        That used to be a very nice community at one


      24        time, but they've had some major problems.


      25             And believe it or not, the people that have





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        owned it back and forth, they don't care who


       2        moves in.  You know, they don't -- you know,


       3        they don't even try to get people who


       4        potentially work.  Are you understanding what


       5        I'm saying?  That everybody is subsidized.  And


       6        don't get me wrong.  I'm not -- you know, I'm


       7        not against people who use subsidy.  You know, I


       8        mean, I qualify for subsidy myself.  But I'm


       9        just saying, you know, until something can be


      10        done about what's really happening out there,


      11        they don't need any more apartments, you know,


      12        out there at all, and they certainly don't need


      13        houses on top of each other.


      14             So I would just hope that Mr. Shuman would


      15        keep his word and just -- you know, and that's


      16        the only way I would vote for it, and that's why


      17        I asked you those questions, because I wanted to


      18        be on record.  And if Mr. Shuman --


      19             And I hope you won't drop dead, and I


      20        didn't say that meaning hopefully you would drop


      21        dead.  I was just saying that anything could


      22        happen, you know.  You may not represent him.


      23        He might get somebody else.  Your intentions are


      24        well, but somebody else could -- because the


      25        bottom line with development is to make money,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        you know, get a profit.


       2             But there's some serious problems in that


       3        area, you know, and there still are.  And I


       4        mean, lots of them.


       5             So, Mr. Harden, I hope that Mr. Shuman will


       6        keep his word as you have articulated, that he


       7        intends on just renovating, right?


       8             MR. HARDEN:  That's correct.


       9             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Thank you.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      11             Councilwoman Jones.


      12             MS. JONES:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      13             I just wanted to have everybody understand,


      14        when Planning says that they were recommending


      15        the 180 or 190 units, that was in conjunction


      16        with a full plan that would have leveled not


      17        only Lorenzo Court, it would have leveled


      18        Washington Heights, it would have leveled


      19        Washington Estates, and it would have created a


      20        multiunit development that would allow for -- I


      21        think it was a senior citizen complex, it would


      22        have allowed for diversification of some of


      23        those subsidized housing units that are over


      24        there, and would have allowed us to make sure


      25        that we created a sustainable community versus





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        what's there now.


       2             So it's not that the Planning Department


       3        made a recommendation that didn't make any


       4        sense.  They made a recommendation that made a


       5        lot of sense at the time, but with the


       6        legislature changing the rule and not allowing


       7        us to be able to condemn areas of blight, it


       8        creates a situation that we're now in that the


       9        properties are there.


      10             We do have an owner that is ready to make


      11        some rehabilitations to the property, and I've


      12        shared with Mr. Harden -- and I do need to


      13        declare ex-parte communication for today at


      14        10:30 in my office.  We did meet to discuss


      15        this.


      16             But I think it's important that the


      17        community understand that, you know, for right


      18        now, this is the best thing that we can do until


      19        we can find a way to get around not being able


      20        to take control of the property and the City


      21        maintain that ownership in order for us to be


      22        able to move forward.


      23             Thank you.


      24             MS. LEE:  Mr. Corrigan, May I just -- and I


      25        know you're ready.  I'm ready to go too, but I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        have one last question.


       2             You said that we're not allowed to condemn


       3        properties that are blighted?  The City of


       4        Jacksonville cannot condemn properties anymore?


       5             MS. JONES:  And turn them over to a


       6        developer for a profit.  We can condemn


       7        property, but it --


       8             Shannon, I forget the factors.


       9             MS. ELLER:  We still have the right to


      10        condemn properties, but they've limited the


      11        ability for us to condemn -- use our power to


      12        condemn and then turn it over to someone to


      13        develop that property for profit.


      14             So the only way we could do it is if we


      15        gave it to somebody, you know, a nonprofit


      16        group.  And developers that are going to do


      17        housing, they're for profit companies.


      18             MS. LEE:  Okay.


      19             Thank you, Mr. Corrigan.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  No problem.


      21             I see no other speakers on this bill, so


      22        we'll open the ballot and record the vote.


      23             (Committee ballot opened.)


      24             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      25             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. LEE:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MS. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


       6             (Committee ballot closed.)


       7             MS. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       9        approved 2008-43.


      10             Mr. Harden, I stepped out when you were


      11        talking.  Did you already speak on 2008-44?


      12             MR. HARDEN:  It's the exact same


      13        situation.  This is kind of across the street,


      14        and I don't have anything to add as to 2008-44.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We'll close that


      16        public hearing.


      17             Have a motion on the bill?


      18             MR. CLARK:  Move the bill.


      19             MS. JONES:  Wait a minute.  I need to


      20        declare ex-parte communication on 2008-44 today,


      21        March 4th, at 10:30, with Mr. Harden.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      23             Planning Department, do you want to give


      24        your input before we have our motion?


      25             MR. CROFTS:  No.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. JONES:  They already did.


       2             MR. KELLY:  Again, this is a very similar


       3        application.  Again, we recommended denial based


       4        on the comments received from the Community


       5        Planning Division.


       6             With regard to the neighborhood action


       7        plan, we felt that the continuance of the


       8        nonconforming use of this property is a


       9        detriment to the neighborhood and contributed to


      10        the blight.  We felt that the rezoning would


      11        allow that, in essence, to continue.  Although


      12        it does allow for the renovation and improvement


      13        to the property, we felt that the RLD-G district


      14        was better suited.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  I have a motion on


      16        the bill.


      17             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Yes.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion to approve.


      19             MS. JONES:  Second.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and second


      21        on 2008-44.


      22             Councilmember Lee.


      23             MS. LEE:  Mia, where -- across the street


      24        where?  Where the church is?


      25             MR. HARDEN:  It's still in that Lorenzo





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Court area.  It's one of those other buildings.


       2             MS. LEE:  But this is facing Moncrief?


       3             MR. HARDEN:  No.  I think the first one


       4        faces --


       5             MS. LEE:  Because this says rezoning,


       6        Moncrief Road.


       7             MR. HARDEN:  Okay.  Then this one fronts


       8        Moncrief.  The other one is back on Lorenzo.


       9             MS. LEE:  Oh, on the back.


      10             But this isn't across the street where the


      11        church is?


      12             MR. HARDEN:  No.  Across Lorenzo Court.


      13             MS. LEE:  Oh, okay.  Just across.  Right.


      14        Okay.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no other


      16        speakers, we will open the ballot and record the


      17        vote.


      18             (Committee ballot opened.)


      19             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      20             MS. LEE:  (Votes yea.)


      21             MS. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


      23             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes yea.)


      25             (Committee ballot closed.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nays.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


       3        approved 2008-44.


       4             Committee members, we now have the two --


       5        we've finished everything except the two appeals


       6        that are on our agenda.  We'll take them in the


       7        order in which they appear.  And I appreciate


       8        the public's patience as we worked through all


       9        this.


      10             The first one -- the first appeal is on


      11        page 2, item number 2, 2005-1161.  We will open


      12        that public hearing.


      13             Mr. Harden.


      14             MR. HARDEN:  This is Councilman Clark's.


      15        I'm going to wait until he gets here.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  We'll wait on that one,


      17        then.


      18             MR. HARDEN:  He's coming.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We're going to allow


      20        ten minutes for each side on this, Mr. Harden,


      21        on this appeal.


      22             MR. HARDEN:  Are there any other speakers?


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  I just have one speaker


      24        card, sir.


      25             You're welcome not to use your entire ten





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        minutes.


       2             MR. HARDEN:  I won't use the whole ten


       3        minutes if that's okay.


       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.


       5             MR. HARDEN:  I better remind you guys of


       6        that when you get up here.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Grateful members in the


       8        audience today.


       9             MR. HARDEN:  This is an exception of a


      10        distance waiver for retail sale of alcohol on


      11        Beach Boulevard.


      12             The existing facility sells beer and wine


      13        and has been at this location for over 20


      14        years.  The applicant filed an application with


      15        the Planning Commission a couple of years ago


      16        not to do anything other than allow retail sale


      17        of liquor, along with the retail sale of beer


      18        and wine.


      19             At the Planning Commission, no one spoke in


      20        opposition.  But apparently the representative,


      21        who was not me, didn't do a very good job


      22        explaining to the Planning Commission the


      23        situation, and so an appeal was taken.


      24             Councilman Clark has had this in the


      25        committee for a couple of years and during that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        time requested some substantial renovations to


       2        the facilities, which have been -- have


       3        occurred, and so we are now requesting that you


       4        grant the waiver and the exception.


       5             You have before you the record before the


       6        Planning Commission, which I'm going to comment


       7        on -- first on the waiver.  They proposed --


       8        excuse me.  The liquor survey showed the


       9        location of two churches within the 1,500 feet.


      10        The fact of the matter is those are not


      11        churches.  They are church office buildings


      12        where the churches don't actually meet.  The


      13        churches meet at other locations:  the Lutheran


      14        Church down towards UNF, Chets Creek Church


      15        around on Hodges Boulevard from the location.


      16             So the distance really isn't from a church


      17        by definition.  And, in fact, I don't really


      18        think a waiver is required, but because it


      19        showed up on the liquor survey the waiver was


      20        filed.


      21             There are multiple reasons to grant a


      22        waiver, five of them.  We meet two of the five.


      23        One of them is the alcoholic beverage site


      24        directly visible along the measure of line


      25        defined in 656 and physically separated from, in





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        this case, the church.


       2             The Planning Department in the report says,


       3        "Yes, it is directly on the line."  And then


       4        they go on to say -- and I'm going to read you


       5        the language.  "The use at the present time is


       6        not" -- "is not directly visible along the


       7        measurement lines defined in 656.806 and is


       8        visually separated from the churches by


       9        vegetation."


      10             The proposed use is separated by


      11        undeveloped commercial property.  However, in


      12        the opinion of the Planning Department,


      13        anticipated future development would conceivably


      14        open the direct line of sight.  So by their


      15        answer, they explain why we're entitled to the


      16        waiver, that it does not, in fact, is not along


      17        the direct line of sight.


      18             There has -- there actually is other


      19        development past the vegetation physically


      20        separating what is the offices, which I, in all


      21        due respect, think would not require a waiver.


      22             We also comply with other -- the fifth


      23        criteria, which is are there other existing


      24        liquor locations in the area.  I'm aware of


      25        those because I've done two of those exceptions





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        in the same vicinity, which are as close or


       2        closer to the church.  Those are -- one of them


       3        is just a package store.  It's not a pub as I


       4        would call this.  And then one is a steakhouse


       5        which sells alcohol with their facility.


       6             So in all due respect to the Planning


       7        Department, their report explains why we're


       8        entitled to the waiver.


       9             The second thing we're asking you to


      10        consider is an exception for retail sale of


      11        alcohol.  And remember, we're not asking to add


      12        a bar at this location.  We're asking to add


      13        liquor sales to the beer and wine which has been


      14        there for over 20 years.


      15             The first question is, "Will it be


      16        consistent with the comp plan?"  And they say,


      17        "No.  It's located in CGC."  The fact of the


      18        matter is CGC is the primary category for retail


      19        sale of alcohol.  It's not a change of the


      20        retail sale; it just allows liquor to also be


      21        added.


      22             The second criteria is whether or not it's


      23        compatible with existing contiguous uses in the


      24        area.  Again, as I explained to you, there's


      25        retail sale of alcohol in other places, but this





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        is an existing facility that's going to add


       2        activity to the site.


       3             The fourth one.  This is -- just so


       4        y'all -- I want to make sure you understand.


       5        "Will the proposed use have a detrimental


       6        effect on vehicular traffic?"


       7             "Yes.  The proposed 4-COP will


       8        accelerate" -- "will generate additional traffic


       9        to the site."  That's just not true.  The


      10        facility has been there.  It's been operating


      11        for 20 years.  It's not going to change the


      12        customers.  It's going to change the


      13        opportunities, I guess, if you will, of the


      14        customers.


      15             The rest of them, they agree that we meet,


      16        basically, the criteria.


      17             So, again, we -- I think if you read the


      18        Planning Department's report and you compare it


      19        to the information that was presented to the


      20        Planning Commission, there were issues related


      21        to the quality of the construction that


      22        Councilman Clark has had us address, and I think


      23        that was what the issue was with the Planning


      24        Commission at the time.


      25             We renovated the site.  It's continued to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        operate at the facility.  There's been no one


       2        speaking at any public hearing in opposition,


       3        and we respectfully request that you grant the


       4        appeal for the waiver and the exception.


       5             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Harden.


       7             I don't see any speakers from the


       8        opposition to the appeal.


       9             So seeing no further speakers, we'll close


      10        the public hearing and go to the Planning


      11        Department for their report first, please.


      12             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      13             To the Chair, this application was


      14        originally heard in front of the Planning


      15        Commission on August 25, 2005.  There are both


      16        companion applications.


      17             The Planning Commission gave deference


      18        really to the staff report, specifically with


      19        regards to the exception.  The issue with the


      20        waiver of the distance is debatable.  I guess


      21        the church property, given that it's not


      22        regularly used for worship and is not basically


      23        meeting the definition of a church -- it is


      24        their offices.


      25             The other issue was the proximity of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        school on Beach Boulevard.  But exclusive of the


       2        waiver of liquor distance issues, we found fault


       3        with the compatibility with the zoning exception


       4        for allowing full alcohol on this site.


       5             It is a -- Beach Boulevard, there are


       6        adjacent residential uses.  And just from a


       7        compatibility standpoint, we felt that the full


       8        alcohol on this site was incompatible with the


       9        existing residential uses and other surrounding


      10        uses that are really more family oriented in the


      11        area.


      12             So we felt that it was inconsistent with


      13        the comprehensive plan and the policies that


      14        allow for a gradual transition of densities and


      15        intensities of uses and, therefore, we


      16        recommended denial.


      17             The Planning Commission also, at that


      18        hearing on the 25th, essentially echoed the


      19        concerns of the department with regards to


      20        compatibility and proceeded to deny the


      21        application.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Kelly.


      23             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Chairman, can I respond to


      24        that?


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Quickly, yes.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HARDEN:  I will quickly.


       2             If you will look at their report, they


       3        describe everything that surrounds this.  Every


       4        single piece is zoned CCG-1.  Mr. Kelly is just


       5        not accurate in saying there are adjacent


       6        residential uses.  It's surrounded by strip


       7        malls.  In every one of the strip malls


       8        surrounding it, there is an exception that


       9        allows for the retail sale of alcohol.


      10             There's a steakhouse.  There's a package


      11        store with a drive-through in it.  So just to


      12        say that it has adjacent residential uses, look


      13        at their -- don't trust me if you don't want


      14        to.  Look at their report.  They describe in the


      15        report everything that surrounds it, and then


      16        show on a map everything that surrounds it.  So


      17        it's all surrounded by CCG-1, residential uses,


      18        not in any of those districts.  And each of the


      19        strip malls on either side of them have had an


      20        exception granted at this location.


      21             It's on Beach Boulevard.  There are 80,000


      22        trips a day going in front of this site.  And in


      23        all due respect, I don't think to say it has


      24        adjacent residential uses is accurate.


      25             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       2             MR. KELLY:  To the Chair, just to address


       3        that comment, last comment.  Also, the one


       4        alcohol license is a bona fide restaurant.  It's


       5        a Japanese restaurant/steakhouse, and the


       6        alcohol is incidental to the service of food.


       7             And the other, I believe as Mr. Harden


       8        references, is a package sales.  So it's not for


       9        on-premise consumption.  So they're separate


      10        license types.  I just wanted to clarify that.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you very much.


      12             We need a motion on the amendment to either


      13        grant or deny.


      14             Okay.  Hang on a minute.  Let me go to


      15        Mr. Clark for --


      16             MR. CLARK:  I just need to declare


      17        ex-parte.  This has been around a while.  I've


      18        obviously had a lot of conversations with folks


      19        through the time.  I do not have specific dates


      20        and times since it's been around for a while.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      22             Do we have a motion to approve or deny


      23        the --


      24             MR. SHAD:  Motion to approve -- grant the


      25        appeal.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. WEBB:  Second.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and second


       3        to approve the -- to grant the appeal.  Motion


       4        and second.


       5             Seeing no discussion on the motion to grant


       6        the appeal, all in favor signal by saying aye.


       7             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  All opposed.


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  The motion is approved.  The


      11        amendment is approved, excuse me.


      12             MR. SHAD:  Move the bill as amended.


      13             MR. WEBB:  Second.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


      15        2005-1161 as amended.


      16             Seeing no discussion, open the ballot and


      17        record the vote.


      18             (Committee ballot opened.)


      19             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Votes yea.)


      20             MR. CLARK:  (Votes yea.)


      21             MS. LEE:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. SHAD:  (Votes yea.)


      23             MR. WEBB:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Votes nay.)


      25             (Committee ballot closed.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, one nay.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       3        approved 2005-1161 as amended.


       4             Thank you, Mr. Harden.


       5             MR. HARDEN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Committee members, we have


       7        one final item which is on page 11, top of the


       8        page, 2008-11.


       9             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Page 10.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm sorry.  Top of page 10.


      11        Excuse me.


      12             Thank you, Councilmember Yarborough.


      13             2008-11.  Let me open that public hearing.


      14             Let me declare a couple of conversations


      15        I've had.  One yesterday in -- actually one was


      16        just a phone message today.  Yesterday I had a


      17        phone conversation with Terry Moore, the agent


      18        for this appeal.  We discussed the nature of the


      19        appeal and whether it would actually be heard


      20        tonight or not.  And I also had a similar


      21        conversation -- actually, a message from Holt


      22        Graves today on my phone.  It was a similar


      23        request.  So back to -- both of those


      24        conversations.


      25             Councilmember Shad.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. SHAD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       2             Since the last time we disclosed


       3        communications, I met Mr. Moore yesterday at


       4        1:35 in my office to discuss the request in


       5        front of us.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Councilman Shad.


       7             Councilwoman Lee.


       8             MS. LEE:  Mr. Moore stopped by my office


       9        this evening to discuss this item.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      11             MS. LEE:  So I'd declare --


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  You just did.  Thank you.


      13             Councilmember Clark.


      14             MR. CLARK:  I had a separate meeting with


      15        Mr. Moore today at 4:30.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Clark.


      17             Councilmember Yarborough.


      18             MR. YARBOROUGH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      19             I spoke with Mr. Moore today at 4:45 p.m.


      20        today, Tuesday, March 4th, to discuss this


      21        item.


      22             Thank you.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      24             Councilmember Webb.


      25             MR. WEBB:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I had a meeting with Mr. Moore, Terry Moore


       2        this morning at 7:30 a.m. to discuss the merits


       3        of this matter.


       4             In addition, at 2:45 p.m. today, I had a


       5        meeting with Erik Olsen and Braxton Gillam, as I


       6        said, at 2:45 p.m. this afternoon as well to


       7        discuss the merits of this matter.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you all very much.  I


       9        appreciate that.


      10             Before we call the speakers up, this is the


      11        second time we've heard this appeal.  Last time


      12        there were some questions asked of me.  I wanted


      13        to enter into the record -- and give one to the


      14        applicant -- some site plans to help answer the


      15        questions that came up last time.


      16             So if you'd give them to Mr. Moore and to


      17        the committee members as well.


      18             We have several speakers today.


      19             This appeal was given extra time at the


      20        same time last time to present the appeal.


      21        Since it is a continuation of the previous


      22        appeal of the same committee, we're going to


      23        stand by our three-minute time rules for our


      24        speakers.


      25             The applicant will have three minutes.  I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        believe, looking at these cards, there's more an


       2        objection than the applicant.  So obviously the


       3        applicant will have time at the end for rebuttal


       4        to any evidence presented by the opposition.


       5             If you have new evidence, you need to


       6        present it.


       7             Question.


       8             MR. CLARK:  (Inaudible.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Right.  And I would


      10        encourage --


      11             Thank you, Councilmember Clark.  I forgot


      12        about that.


      13             I would encourage you tonight that -- we're


      14        here to continue to hear evidence on this


      15        particular matter, that we're not trying to do a


      16        duplication of the evidence that's been


      17        presented before.  And also we don't want


      18        duplicates.  The committee does not like


      19        duplicate evidence to be presented.


      20             If your point that you've come here tonight


      21        to make has been made, you may simply stand up


      22        and say, "My point has been addressed already."


      23             I think we're in proper posture.


      24        Ms. Eller, are we in good shape?


      25             MS. ELLER:  Yes.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We are in good


       2        shape.


       3             We have, like I said, several speakers.


       4        We'll begin with the agent for the applicant,


       5        Terry Moore, who will be followed by Jack


       6        Teeters, follow by Charles Trinder.


       7             (Mr. Moore approaches the podium.)


       8             MR. MOORE:  Mr. Chairman, councilpersons,


       9        thank you very much.


      10             My name is Terry Moore.  I'm here on behalf


      11        of the applicant.  My address is 50 North Laura


      12        Street, Suite 1100.


      13             I have some handouts for those of you who


      14        did not attend the first presentation that we


      15        made about a month ago, and I'll go ahead and


      16        hand those out now.


      17             I'll take a minute while these are being


      18        circulated.


      19             This, in essence -- to those who were in


      20        attendance before, it's the same material that


      21        we presented before.  But out of deference to


      22        Mr. Clark and Ms. Lee, I wanted to present it


      23        again.


      24             What we have here, just in summary, is a


      25        situation where there's a PUD.  We have an





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        amendment requested to a piece of that PUD,


       2        which is the condominium portion, which is the


       3        most westerly portion.


       4             The PUD -- and I think this -- and I would


       5        ask everybody's attention on this.  We had and


       6        we have -- the PUD permits presently 55 feet of


       7        construction, and it's a height measured from


       8        the concave surface of the road in front of this


       9        project, and it permits 75 units.


      10             The developer, because of circumstances --


      11        and we all know what the circumstances are in


      12        the economy -- has scaled this project back to,


      13        presently, 40 units.  He negotiated with the


      14        neighborhood and we scaled it back even further


      15        to 38 units, and we dropped the top floor off of


      16        the most easterly units.  Even though we're


      17        permitted 55 feet, we dropped it to 45 feet with


      18        the reservation that we could come back and ask


      19        for the additional 10 feet on the most westerly


      20        building and go to 65 feet.  So we're trying to


      21        get back two units, to take it back to 40 units.


      22             I would point out that the 75 units that we


      23        were permitted, at 40 units, that's only


      24        52 percent of what it was that we had.  And


      25        people have said, well, it doesn't, you know,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        affect -- scaling it back doesn't really affect


       2        densities and so on, which is not true.  When


       3        you cut it in half, you have half as many trips,


       4        half as many people generally.


       5             So that's what we're asking for.


       6             Now, what I've given you -- just in the


       7        belief that a picture is worth a thousand words,


       8        I would ask you to look quickly under tab 2, and


       9        that explains the green building there.


      10             Building 1 is the building that we're


      11        asking for the additional 10 feet on, and


      12        building 2 is the building that we scaled down.


      13        That's the building to the east.  And we -- I


      14        would say -- and Councilman Corrigan and the


      15        Planning Department met with us and asked us to


      16        scale that building down, and we did.


      17             Under tab 4, we're showing some view


      18        corridors, and then the other tabs will show you


      19        what was there before.


      20             And I would say to any of you, what we're


      21        building, I think, is a certain improvement over


      22        what was there before.  It shorter, it's -- it's


      23        less dense and, you know, by half of what it was


      24        before.


      25             So I think my time is up, if I understood





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the lights.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  And you'll have time for


       3        rebuttal at the end, Mr. Moore.


       4             MR. MOORE:  Thank you.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       6             Our next speaker is Jack Teeters, followed


       7        by Charles Trinder.


       8             Charles, I apologize.  I'm butchering your


       9        name.


      10             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.  Thank you,


      13        Mr. Chairman.


      14             Jack Teeters, and my address is 4401


      15        Lakeside Drive, Unit 1203.  Those are the Ortega


      16        Yacht Club Condominiums.


      17             Now, this is the first meeting I've


      18        attended that had anything to do with this


      19        project, but we did keep track of it, and we


      20        know that originally it was zoned and accepted


      21        by the City that the tallest units would be five


      22        stories high.  Now they're asking for six.


      23             Now, we weren't crazy about the five


      24        stories because it has -- it will cut our view.


      25             One of the significant things about our





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        property is being able to see downtown and the


       2        river.  Now, if you build a tall building in


       3        front of us, obviously we can't.  So we very


       4        much do not want to see it extended.


       5             The other part of it that I'm concerned


       6        about is, after the number of stories that


       7        residents are going to live in, what are they


       8        going to put on top for a roof and how much


       9        higher will that make the total building?


      10             I can understand the developer would like


      11        to enrich himself by adding some units, but it


      12        would be to our detriment and it will definitely


      13        reduce the value of our units.


      14             Thank you very much.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      16             Charles Trinder, followed by Betty Ann


      17        Graves.


      18             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Charles.


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Charles


      21        Trinder.  I live in the same condominium


      22        building as Jack Teeters.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead and give your


      24        address, Charles.


      25             MR. TRINDER:  4401 Lakeside Drive,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Unit 1003.


       2             I would just like to add to what Jack said,


       3        that I checked the zoning on the building before


       4        I purchased my condominium, and I was told it


       5        was five stories.


       6             It would significantly impact the view, as


       7        Jack said, but also -- I think it would also


       8        significantly have a detrimental effect on the


       9        overall ambience of the neighborhood as it is


      10        right now because the zoning originally was set


      11        to have that building at the same roof level as


      12        the adjacent commercial building alongside it.


      13        And now, of course, it will not be that way.


      14             Thank you very much.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      16             Betty Ann Graves, followed by Holt Graves.


      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I have a handout.


      19             Betty Ann Graves, 4437 Herschel Street.


      20             I am the immediate neighbor to the


      21        northeast of the planned development.  And just


      22        a little bit of history:  Over five years ago,


      23        the neighborhood, the boating community all met


      24        with the first developer and with our City


      25        Council people to negotiate the PUD that is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        approved right now.


       2             We all made some concessions.  There were


       3        things we weren't as happy about and other


       4        things that were put in there that were -- that


       5        we had argued for.


       6             The drawing that you have in front of you,


       7        the original part of the drawing, without those


       8        overlay buildings, 1, 2, and 3, this is what was


       9        approved in the PUD.


      10             You can see the original U-shaped,


      11        five-story building that was approved.  There is


      12        a building E that's about maybe halfway along


      13        the riverfront that, in the original plans, was


      14        to support the limited boatyard use on the


      15        property, which this new developer has


      16        eliminated from the plans.


      17             We learned sometime last fall that they did


      18        not want to go ahead with this U-shaped


      19        development and had gotten apparently passed,


      20        without any input from the neighborhood, a


      21        change in their plans, the three buildings that


      22        they currently want to put in.  And those are


      23        numbered 1, 2, and 3 on your drawing.


      24             You can see that building 3 has moved


      25        significantly closer to the residential part of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the neighborhood, which continues up to your


       2        right as you're looking at the picture.  That


       3        building 3, which is to be a four-story


       4        building, is now where there was a very small


       5        two-story building that would have eased the


       6        transition from five-story condominiums to one-


       7        and two-story residential and some one-story


       8        office buildings that are across the street.


       9             We learned about this and started talking


      10        to the Planning Commission actually -- I mean,


      11        the Planning Department, and actually called it


      12        to their attention that the footprint of these


      13        new buildings was not identical to what had been


      14        approved, and we didn't feel like it was a minor


      15        modification.


      16             So now, all of a sudden, we have a


      17        four-story building where there was to be a


      18        three-story building -- where there was a


      19        two-story building, I'm sorry.  And then you see


      20        the other two.


      21             It's building 1 in this picture is the one


      22        they're trying to add the additional story to


      23        and make it six stories.


      24             In the original PUD, the height of the


      25        buildings was really a big bargaining point.  We





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        did not -- the neighborhood did not want this


       2        new construction to go any higher than anything


       3        else in the neighborhood.


       4             So we respectfully ask you to deny this


       5        appeal and restrict the height to what was


       6        approved in the original PUD.


       7             Thank you.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       9             Our next speaker will be Holt Graves,


      10        followed by Philip May.


      11             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm Holt Graves.  I live


      13        at 4437 Herschel Street.


      14             In 2004, the community entered into a


      15        contract with the owner of this property.  And


      16        the City of Jacksonville approved it, thereby


      17        making it a binding contract.  The contract is


      18        in the form of a PUD.


      19             Since then, there's been many changes to


      20        the property and to the developer's plans.  The


      21        developer, who told you that there's been many


      22        improvements to the property from when it was a


      23        boatyard and many improvements from their


      24        original design plans -- and I don't disagree


      25        with any of that.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             But I do want to make one important point,


       2        that these changes and improvements have been


       3        made within the scope of the PUD.  And if that's


       4        all the improvements that there were, then we


       5        wouldn't be here tonight.


       6             The developer is now trying to one-sidedly


       7        change our contract.  They are asking to change


       8        one of the condominium buildings to six floors


       9        instead of the maximum five floors that was


      10        agreed to in the PUD and blessed by the City.


      11             The proposal tonight does not change


      12        anything or have anything to do with the


      13        improvements that have been made to date.  Those


      14        are done and they won't change.


      15             The only question tonight is whether the


      16        developer can one-sidedly change the contract


      17        and increase the height of the condo building.


      18        None of the other discussion really matters.


      19             The developer purchased this property with


      20        the PUD in place and was fully aware of the PUD


      21        and the restrictions, after they bought the


      22        property and they designed the condos as a


      23        single building with 74 units and they tried to


      24        sell them.


      25             They built a sales office, hired a realty





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        firm.  They advertised.  They had open houses.


       2        There was not enough demand for their product.


       3        Be it the features of the building, the


       4        location, the real estate market, or something


       5        else, they couldn't make it work, so they


       6        decided to redesign their building and change


       7        their product and increase the size of each


       8        single unit and thereby reducing the total


       9        number of units.


      10             They split one building into three,


      11        allowing them to build the five different


      12        phases.  And, as was mentioned earlier, they


      13        expanded the footprint at the time of their


      14        building and approached upon what was a


      15        two-story building.  It was acting as a buffer


      16        to the homes on the eastern side of the


      17        property.


      18             When they purchased the property and


      19        developed their original design plans, they made


      20        a business decision to do so and they assumed


      21        the risk.  Now that their decision has failed


      22        and they have had to redesign their product,


      23        they're asking the community to assume that risk


      24        and pay for their lack of sales and changing the


      25        product.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I don't know about your business, but I


       2        know in mine, if I build a product that no one


       3        buys, I can't come before you and ask somebody


       4        else to pay for my decision.


       5             We had a contract and the community has


       6        lived up to our side, and I ask you tonight to


       7        have the developer honor their side of the


       8        contract.


       9             Be glad to answer any questions.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      11             MR. GRAVES:  Thank you.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't see any questions.


      13             Our next speaker is Philip May, followed by


      14        Melissa Berlin.


      15             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


      17             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Philip May.  I


      18        live at 4401 Lakeside Drive, Unit 1002, the same


      19        Ortega Yacht Club Condominiums.


      20             This whole process of the development of


      21        this property has been confusing from the


      22        beginning up until the present time.  The


      23        neighborhood has been asked to go along with


      24        many changes, and it's gotten to the point where


      25        we just don't believe that anything is being





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        done with the best interest of the neighborhood


       2        in mind.


       3             And this latest change that they're


       4        requesting is just sort of an added slap in the


       5        face.  They knew what they had agreed to, and we


       6        feel that it's a matter of integrity that they


       7        be required to stick to what they first agreed


       8        to do and that this request be denied.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      10             Melissa Berlin, followed by Nick Berlin.


      11             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I waive my right to speak


      12        in opposition to this item.


      13             Thank you.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you very much.


      15        Appreciate that.


      16             Nick Berlin.


      17             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I waive my right to speak


      18        in opposition too.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you very much.


      20             Paul Crum, followed by Julie -- I can't


      21        quite read your name -- Matt- -- I can't read


      22        your last name.


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Matthews.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Oh, Matthews.  Thank you.


      25             (Audience member approaches the podium.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm Dr. Paul Crum, Jr.  I


       2        live at 4145 Lakeside Drive.  I'm in opposition


       3        to resolution 2008-11.


       4             This variance, as you know, asked


       5        permission to increase the height to the


       6        westward building at Ortega Landing development


       7        from five to six stories.  It's ironically


       8        labeled as a minor modification.


       9             On its Web site, Ortega Landing describes


      10        Avondale as a traditional neighborhood with


      11        small, boutique-type shopping, quaint streets,


      12        and small town charm.


      13             Ortega Landing, although they advertise


      14        Avondale, they advertise Ortega, it's actually


      15        in my community, which is Lakeside.


      16             I drove past the construction site today by


      17        car and recently I've gone past it by boat, and


      18        I'm struck by the size of the site, and clearly


      19        this will be one of the largest residential


      20        complexes in Lakeside.  I guess there's maybe


      21        one building that's also large.


      22             The boat slips numbering 192 already are


      23        dominating part of the Ortega River, extending


      24        far into the river itself.  The Ortega Landing


      25        clubhouse abuts the Graves' residence on the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        eastward side and it's very, very close, I might


       2        add.


       3             Now, the view from the street thus far is a


       4        retention pond and a construction zone.  This


       5        project appears to creep up to all of its lot


       6        borders into the river and now they want to


       7        change their permit to rise even higher.


       8             I'm struck that there appears to be no


       9        advantage to our community by the project as out


      10        of character as it is.  Those who benefit are


      11        not in our community of Lakeside.


      12             For a large project like this, planned in


      13        advance, it sets a very bad precedent for them


      14        to come and ask for changes at this late hour.


      15             Please help to maintain the charm of our


      16        neighborhood and vote "no" on resolution


      17        2008-11.


      18             Thank you.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      20             Julie Matthews, followed by Dennis


      21        Matthews.


      22             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm Julie Matthews,


      25        4125 Lakeside Drive.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I oppose this proposal for one reason, and


       2        that is that sometimes people, when you give


       3        them an inch, they take a mile.


       4             Thank you.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       6             Dennis Matthews, followed by Erik Olsen,


       7        who's the last speaker that I have.


       8             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I relinquish my right to


       9        speak, but I'm in opposition.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you,


      11        Mr. Matthews.


      12             Erik Olsen.


      13             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      14             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Erik Olsen, 4438 Herschel


      15        Street, property owner.


      16             I have a handout, if we could distribute


      17        that.


      18             You've been told tonight that the project


      19        has been modified since Julian LeCraw first put


      20        forward his site plan as a better project; it's


      21        a smaller project.  Realistically, it is not.


      22             It is -- it does represent fewer units.


      23        However, I tell you -- I will tell you that many


      24        of the units are more than three times the size


      25        in square footage of the original building.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I'll also tell you that even though the


       2        architecture of this particular complex is


       3        better, it now goes from one building into three


       4        buildings.  If you look at all three of these


       5        buildings from Lakeside Drive, they basically


       6        blank out a hundred percent of the waterfront,


       7        so the net effect of that is that there really


       8        is no aesthetic difference between three


       9        buildings and one large building.


      10             You've been told that there was a PUD


      11        requirement of 55 feet.  That is true.  It


      12        derives from the two buildings that are abutting


      13        this.  One was the C.F. Knight building, which


      14        was actually denied originally by the City of


      15        Jacksonville because it was placed next to a


      16        three-story condominium.  That three-story


      17        condominium prevailed on the City Council and


      18        the Planning Department and negotiated an


      19        absolute height elevation for this portion of


      20        Lakeside Drive of 55 feet.  And it was that


      21        55 feet that was codified in the PUD; it was


      22        that 55 feet that, as Holt Graves indicated


      23        fairly correctly, became part of the contract


      24        between the owner, the City, and the


      25        neighborhood.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             A fact which really is ignored here and


       2        probably is best addressed in another forum is


       3        the fact that the existing building that they


       4        intend to build, which is five stories, is


       5        20 feet greater than the 55 foot elevation.


       6             Now, we're not asking you here tonight to


       7        overturn that because there's a better forum to


       8        do that, and that's code enforcement.  As a


       9        matter of fact, that code enforcement will also


      10        apply to the 45-foot building.


      11             But I'm here to tell you that if you allow


      12        them another story, one story, which is a little


      13        bit over 10 feet, you're just going to make a


      14        bad situation worse.


      15             There's a significant paper trail as to the


      16        derivation of this 55 feet.  The City knows it,


      17        we know it, and it's well codified in two PUDs,


      18        both the PUD for the C.F. Knight building and


      19        the PUD for this particular project.


      20             Thank you.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Olsen.


      22             Mr. Olsen, Councilwoman Lee has a question


      23        for you.


      24             MR. OLSEN:  Yes, ma'am.


      25             MS. LEE:  I'm sorry.  I heard you -- you





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        said that you were a business owner on Herschel


       2        Street?


       3             MR. OLSEN:  Yes, ma'am.  I am a


       4        professional engineer.


       5             MS. LEE:  Are you here representing the


       6        neighborhood or do you live in the


       7        neighborhood?


       8             MR. OLSEN:  I live across the river.  I


       9        will view this, but I'm representing the two


      10        properties that I own, which are immediately


      11        across the street from this parcel.


      12             MS. LEE:  From this parcel.  Okay.  And


      13        that's not Herschel Street?


      14             MR. OLSEN:  My address is Herschel, but


      15        I -- it actually is on Lakeside Drive.


      16             MS. LEE:  Okay.  I just wanted to make sure


      17        because I didn't think Herschel was in Ortega.


      18             MR. OLSEN:  Well, it turns out that my


      19        address is associated with the Lakeside -- with


      20        the Herschel side of the building and not the


      21        Lakeside.


      22             MS. LEE:  Okay.


      23             MR. OLSEN:  I face both streets.


      24             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Olsen.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Councilwoman Lee.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I will further clarify that this project


       2        and Mr. Olsen are at the intersection of


       3        Herschel and Lakeside Drive, is where this


       4        project is.


       5             MS. LEE:  Thank you.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


       7             I don't have any other speakers.


       8             I will clarify for the record that the


       9        handouts that you received all came from the


      10        Planning Department.  The ones I handed out at


      11        the beginning of this public hearing were


      12        actually in my file that I received from the


      13        Planning Department.


      14             Seeing no further speakers, we will close


      15        the public hearing.


      16             MR. YARBOROUGH:  (Inaudible.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Thank you.


      18        I got sidetracked.


      19             Mr. Moore, you have ten seconds to -- no,


      20        I'm just kidding.  You have several minutes for


      21        rebuttal.


      22             (Mr. Moore approaches the podium.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sorry about that.  I forgot.


      24             The public hearing is still open.


      25             MR. MOORE:  Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I'm appreciative of the comments that these


       2        folks have made because I -- apparently there's


       3        some miscommunication, and this is a good venue


       4        to vet that miscommunication as anywhere.


       5             What I mean by that is, when this project


       6        was first applied -- you have this PUD site plan


       7        in the PUD.  This project went through a


       8        verified site plan process and the owners had a


       9        verified site plan.


      10             At the request of the City Councilman at


      11        that point -- which I think was Mr. Corrigan; I


      12        think he had shortly come in -- the developers


      13        were requested to abandon that verified site


      14        plan and start over, and they did.  They


      15        forfeited $120,000 of design fees that they paid


      16        to Rink Reynolds to start over at the request of


      17        the neighborhood.


      18             At the request of the neighborhood, as


      19        conveyed through Mr. Corrigan, they staged the


      20        easterly side of this building to a step


      21        fashion, so it was not monolithic, to


      22        accommodate the concerns of the neighborhood.


      23             So these developers are mindful of the


      24        neighborhood and they have tried to accommodate


      25        the neighborhood at significant cost.  Probably





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the biggest significant cost to accommodate the


       2        neighborhood -- accommodating the neighborhood,


       3        was the delay and missing the market, because


       4        they did miss the market, and we all know the


       5        history of the market.  We know the price of


       6        oil, we know what's happening in the market, we


       7        know where we are.


       8             Now, the developers came back with a site


       9        plan very similar to what you see.  At the


      10        request of the Planning Department, we engaged


      11        in discussions with the Graves family who are


      12        here tonight.  We changed the roof design, at


      13        their request, to try to have it less


      14        intrusive.  And we submitted that verified site


      15        plan, and it was held up in excess of four


      16        months.


      17             At the request of the Planning Department,


      18        at the request of Mr. Corrigan on behalf of the


      19        neighborhood -- and he's a very good councilman


      20        for you all; he represents you very well -- we


      21        came back and met with Mr. Corrigan.  And we did


      22        not have to, under the contract that Mr. Graves


      23        talks about, drop from 55 feet to 45 feet.  We


      24        were entitled at that point to get 55 feet, and


      25        you can ask your counsel, ably, from the General





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Counsel's Office, in terms of what a developer


       2        is entitled to.  If they're entitled to 55 feet,


       3        they're entitled to 55 feet.


       4             We dropped back to be good neighbors, but


       5        we ask to recognize that we be permitted to come


       6        back in this venue, with no assurances, but to


       7        come back and say, what's fair for one side is


       8        fair for the other side; and if we give this up,


       9        can we come back and make an application to ask


      10        for the additional 10 feet.


      11             So that's what we asked for.


      12             Now, what do we have presently?  We can


      13        pack this whole thing up and go back to the plan


      14        that we had, which was the monolithic, U-shaped,


      15        55-foot building, verified site plan with


      16        75 units, or we can go back with some derivation


      17        of that, up to 60 units, or we can go up


      18        certainly to 55 feet.  We're not asking to do


      19        that.


      20             We're asking that the council recognize


      21        that this developer has done everything that


      22        they can reasonably do to accommodate the needs


      23        of the neighborhood.


      24             Much has been made about the 55 feet.


      25        We're not asking that this project be measured





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        any differently than any other project in this


       2        city.  It's measured from a specific point,


       3        which is the crown of Lakeside Drive, and it can


       4        go to 55 feet.  And how that 55 feet is applied


       5        is just like the 35 feet would be applied to


       6        Mr. Graves' building.  He's got a 35 foot height


       7        limitation.  That doesn't include certain


       8        things, like chimneys and so on.


       9             So it's in that venue that we're coming and


      10        asking for the additional ten feet.


      11             The developer would be willing to concede


      12        that it will not go back and we'll not ask for


      13        55 feet on the easterly building that it's


      14        entitled to.  Keep in mind, we have a verified


      15        site plan right now that says that that building


      16        is okay there and we could go to 55 feet.  We're


      17        not asking for that.  We're asking to go to


      18        45 feet and we'll give up the ten if we can get


      19        65 on the other one.


      20             Going to the east -- excuse me -- going to


      21        the west, the office building that folks have


      22        talked about, it's not residential, it's an


      23        office building.  Mr. Graves' property is across


      24        the street.  CRO, they're used as office


      25        buildings.  There's a doctor's office across the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        street.


       2             Under tab -- I think it's 1 or 2 of your


       3        materials, I've got a map of the present uses of


       4        the property.  And the Planning Department, in


       5        its able report, recommended this and it also


       6        found that it was not a detriment to the


       7        residential character of the neighborhood to the


       8        extent there are residences north of Mr. Graves'


       9        property on Herschel or westerly of the doctor's


      10        office on Lakeside.


      11             The owners who are complaining from the


      12        condominiums, if you look in the materials that


      13        I presented to you, under tab 1, you will see


      14        the location of their building, which is the


      15        first gray building that's shown there.  And I


      16        submit to you, if you also look at the scales


      17        that we've got under the drawing here showing


      18        views under tab 4, that building is probably --


      19        well, I won't speculate how far away it is, but


      20        it's -- there is an intervening property between


      21        us, which is the office building, and those


      22        condominiums.


      23             And then on the other side of the


      24        condominium, where a lot of the folks are


      25        complain- -- you know, reside there are





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        complaining, is a 13-story building.  And if you


       2        go and look under tab 11, you will see pictures


       3        of that building.  I think it's actually the


       4        last page in the handout.  That's the building


       5        that is located within their view to the west.


       6             So we do not believe that we're doing


       7        anything detrimental to this neighborhood.  We


       8        think there is competent substantial evidence


       9        provided by the Planning Department to support


      10        it.  We think that we have honored our agreement


      11        with the neighborhood.  In fact, you know what?


      12        We have done better than honor our agreement.


      13        We have cut the project in half and we're taking


      14        ten feet off the building to the east.


      15             So if I can answer any questions, I would


      16        be pleased to do so.  I know it's late.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any questions?


      18             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't see any questions


      20        for you, Mr. Moore.


      21             Thank you very much.


      22             MR. MOORE:  Thank you.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no other speakers,


      24        we'll close the public hearing and go to


      25        Councilmember Clark.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Could we have a response


       2        to Mr. Moore?


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  No.  Mr. Moore, as the


       4        appellant, has the final response.


       5             Councilman Clark.


       6             MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       7             I just have a few questions.  I don't know


       8        who can -- it doesn't really matter who can


       9        answer them.


      10             How tall is the Ortega Yacht Club?


      11             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Twelve stories.


      12             MS. CLARK:  Twelve stories.  Okay.


      13             Is there a structure taller than that in


      14        Ortega?  Is that the tallest structure in the


      15        area?


      16             (Mr. Yarborough assumes the Chair.)


      17             MR. CORRIGAN:  Yeah, I believe -- I don't


      18        know what you consider the area, but within


      19        the -- within a quarter mile, it would be the


      20        tallest structure.


      21             MR. CLARK:  Okay.  Built many moons ago?


      22             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Nods head.)


      23             MR. CLARK:  And I actually asked the


      24        question that I heard one of the folks in


      25        opposition ask, and that was, you know, if we





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        didn't define the height of a building, if it's


       2        not defined within a PUD -- I asked Shannon, and


       3        she informed me that we -- our default has


       4        traditionally been to say that the height is at


       5        the top of the residence, the highest


       6        residence.  So everything on top of that,


       7        architecturally, elevator shafts, everything,


       8        that goes above that number.  So that just


       9        leaves me to believe that anytime we do anything


      10        with heights, we better really seriously -- we


      11        need to tighten that up, especially if we start


      12        building in height.


      13             You know, I -- I guess my personal opinion


      14        is, you know, the developer had a deal -- I'm


      15        not a real fan of these modifications after the


      16        fact.  I'm not real inclined to let him go


      17        higher than the 55 max, unless I hear a real


      18        serious compelling argument to the contrary.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Clark.


      20             Mr. Corrigan.


      21             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      22             To my colleague, Mr. Clark, I agree with


      23        you, but I think we need to have a little more


      24        proof than that in order to be able to deny


      25        this.  I think we have to use the criteria to --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to ask ourselves, does it serve a legitimate


       2        public purpose to approve this.  And I would


       3        argue that it does not.


       4             If you look on criteria 3, "The uses


       5        permitted under the proposed rezoning will not


       6        be consistent or compatible with existing


       7        proposed land uses and zoning of adjacent and


       8        nearby properties or the general area or will


       9        deviate from established or developing logical


      10        and orderly development patterns" --


      11             This simply doesn't fit in.  It's -- I


      12        could give you a big, long speech and everything


      13        else about why it doesn't fit in, but if you go


      14        back and look at the Planning Commission's


      15        transcript, which is what you're supposed to --


      16        what the appeal is based on, two of the


      17        commission members that I think have a pretty


      18        good reputation on the commission -- one would


      19        be Mr. Register -- said the same thing I said


      20        previously.  He thinks this is a nice project,


      21        but he also says, "but I don't think increasing


      22        the height in this is where we need to be in


      23        this particular area given the surrounding


      24        adjacent structures, given the original


      25        discussions of the PUD."





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Mr. Deno Hicks, who is also well-respected


       2        and in the building industry, said, "I just want


       3        to echo a couple of comments my previous two


       4        commissioners made.  I think this is a great


       5        project.  I do have some concerns in increasing


       6        the height."  And he went on to say, "As you


       7        know, I'm -- in looking at these cross-sections


       8        of the building elevations, it just doesn't seem


       9        to be consistent with the surrounding area."


      10             There's been evidence presented by


      11        Mr. Moore, and Councilmember Clark referenced


      12        it, the 12-story high-rise that's within a


      13        mile -- or within a quarter mile of this


      14        project.  Yes, it is there and it is the highest


      15        thing that is between there and the heavy retail


      16        nature of the Publix shopping center.  There's


      17        also a six-lane highway that's adjacent to that


      18        taller condominium and one of the busiest CSX


      19        rail sites.  That building actually serves as a


      20        buffer for everything that goes to the east of


      21        that particular project, and that particular


      22        building faces away from all those


      23        noise-generating entities that are there, so


      24        it's really not fair to reference that as a


      25        reference point.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             The reference point that was used in the


       2        PUD application was a 55-foot-high commercial


       3        building that's located two lots from where this


       4        one is.  All the discussions I had -- and it was


       5        even more heated than you're seeing tonight on


       6        the discussions before -- centered around the


       7        fact that whatever was going to be built there


       8        should not be taller than that commercial


       9        building because that commercial building pretty


      10        much matched the tree line of that area.


      11             And you have to understand, in this


      12        particular project -- and Councilman Clark has


      13        got it and Councilman Shad and Councilman Webb


      14        as well and I'm sure Councilman Yarborough --


      15        there's two front yards in this particular


      16        project.  You've got Lakeside Drive -- and


      17        arguably, you get to a certain height and you


      18        can't tell whether it's 50 or 60 feet, but


      19        you've also got another front yard, a very


      20        beautiful front yard, in the Ortega River.  And


      21        hundreds of thousands of people, that's the


      22        front yard they're going to see.


      23             And as we designed this project with the


      24        community's input several years ago, we kept


      25        looking at, you know, what is best for the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        community, not only the people adjacent to


       2        Lakeside Drive but for the other front yard,


       3        which is the river, and what they're going to


       4        see.  And the project we came up with had


       5        opposition, but we solved that opposition and


       6        came to a consensus of what we should do.


       7             I gave you the handouts earlier because the


       8        last time we met Councilwoman Jones, I believe,


       9        at the time, was asking a question, you know,


      10        what's the big deal?  What's changed?  Well, if


      11        you look at those pages in that, you will see


      12        kind of a chronological order of what's


      13        happened.


      14             There originally was a U-shaped condominium


      15        with a pool.  And if you read the written


      16        description, it says "the" condominium building


      17        and "the" pool.  Well, now if you go back


      18        several pages and look, there's now three


      19        condominium buildings, there's two pools,


      20        there's a marina.  There was never a marina


      21        discussed in the PUD that was approved by this


      22        LUZ Committee before.


      23             It talked about a condominium building and


      24        the boat uses, and that's what the neighbors


      25        thought we were getting, that's what the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        district councilperson thought we were getting,


       2        and that's not happening.


       3             And, really, it's that testimony that


       4        Braxton Gillam gave at the Planning Commission I


       5        think probably swayed them so much over there


       6        was -- there's been so many changes and so many


       7        broken promises throughout this, that -- you


       8        know, the height was supposed to be the height


       9        of that 55 foot.


      10             And I agree with Councilmember Clark, that


      11        the default language goes back to occupied


      12        height, and that's supposed to be -- it's


      13        55 feet, which this drawing is, but the reality


      14        is that it's really -- I mean, if you look at


      15        the drawing that was passed out to us today, it


      16        really ends up being 97 feet high at one point,


      17        which is just, you know, destroying the


      18        community.  So to come back and say, "Hey, give


      19        us ten more feet," to me, is just not right for


      20        the community, it's not right for the district


      21        councilperson.  That's not what I fought for


      22        when I negotiated that previously.


      23             And then the handout presented by Betty Ann


      24        Graves that showed the three buildings, that's


      25        the only way I found out about what was





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        happening with this project because when the


       2        plans went out -- and in the PUD approval


       3        process that we have as a council, they came


       4        back to me and I noticed that that building


       5        looked like it had gotten a lot closer.  And in


       6        the final written description approved by this


       7        Land Use and Zoning Committee, it said the


       8        condominium building -- the single building --


       9        will be located on the western part of the


      10        property.  So when it came back and building 3


      11        had shifted over so far to the east, that's what


      12        got my attention and that's when I said, wait a


      13        minute.  What's going on here?  What happened?


      14             And Mr. Moore, in his testimony today, said


      15        that there's half as many units, half as many


      16        trips.  Well, I'll tell you, the big argument


      17        back when we approved this previously was


      18        that -- the number of parking spaces for the


      19        size of the condominium they were building and


      20        the 200 boat slips that are there.


      21             Now, the boat slips didn't get reduced in


      22        half.  We reduced the parking in half when we


      23        reduced the size of the condo- -- number of


      24        condominium units in half.  We reduced the


      25        parking in half.  We didn't reduce the marina





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        slips in half.


       2             So all of a sudden, when all this is


       3        finished and the marina is sold -- and it is a


       4        beautiful marina.  I'm not going to kid you, it


       5        is a beautiful marina, but there's going to be


       6        about 190 slips that need parking to come out


       7        there and enjoy those great slips on the


       8        weekend.


       9             And through this process, without any input


      10        from the public, without any input from this


      11        Land Use and Zoning Committee -- and the


      12        Planning Department, under a previous director,


      13        just said, yep, you reduced the units, you


      14        reduced the parking, and that will be okay.


      15             And it's not going to be okay when it's


      16        finished.  The overflow parking is going to


      17        spill onto this community, but there's nothing


      18        we can do about that.  Mr. Moore is right; they


      19        had the right to do that and there's nothing we


      20        can do about that now.


      21             So what we're being asked to do as a


      22        council is to approve -- give them just a little


      23        bit more.  Well, to my fellow committee members,


      24        we've given enough on this.


      25             And I have great respect for the architect,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        I have great respect for their agent, but I


       2        don't have great respect for this project.


       3             The people have made a deal.  And a PUD


       4        approval by this council is a deal that a


       5        community and the council makes with a


       6        developer.  A different developer is here now,


       7        but he should not be able to change the rules


       8        just because we changed the developer, and


       9        that's why I can't approve this project.  That's


      10        why I won't support this height deviation.


      11             Based on the criteria that was given, based


      12        on the law, based on the reason that we're


      13        supposed to make our decisions up here, I urge


      14        you not to support it and I move to deny the


      15        application.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  There's a motion to deny.


      17             Is there a second?


      18             MR. CLARK:  Second.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion and a second.


      20             Discussion.


      21             Mr. Webb, you were in the queue.  Would you


      22        still like to discuss --


      23             MR. WEBB:  We're on the amendment?


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  This is on the amendment,


      25        yes.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Fair enough.


       2             I wanted to -- well, actually, I'd like to


       3        speak to the bill, on the appeal, so I guess --


       4        get an amendment -- explanation on the


       5        amendment, and then we'll --


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Eller, can you explain


       7        where we are on that?


       8             MS. ELLER:  Sure.


       9             The resolution itself is neutral.  So in


      10        order to grant or deny the appeal, the committee


      11        must move an amendment to insert language


      12        granting or denying the appeal.


      13             An amendment was offered by Councilmember


      14        Corrigan to deny the appeal.  It has been


      15        seconded.  So that's the motion before you.


      16             If you'd like to discuss -- you can direct


      17        your comments to the amendment to deny the


      18        appeal, that would be proper, or you may


      19        entertain the motion on this amendment and see


      20        where it goes.


      21             MR. WEBB:  Fair enough.


      22             I'd like to speak to the -- speak on the


      23        amendment to deny.


      24             I guess -- I hear the district councilman


      25        loud and clear with regard to his concerns for





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        his community, and I -- you know, I understand


       2        completely as well his defense of his community


       3        and protecting the interests of his


       4        constituents.


       5             However, I'm concerned that we're -- and


       6        this is the guy who overrode the recommendation


       7        of the Planning Department earlier this evening,


       8        so I understand it's --


       9             But in any event, I am concerned that on --


      10        in basing our decision on the criteria, on the


      11        rationale of what I've heard this evening, we


      12        may be setting ourselves up for potential legal


      13        action in that -- a couple of points.


      14             A lot of the evidence, a lot of the


      15        rationale, at least what I've heard, for the


      16        denial is a motion based on a large part of the


      17        application process that has evolved, that's


      18        occurred over the last few years.


      19             And, Michael, I remember this project well


      20        because Julian LeCraw tried to build a condo


      21        project down in Mandarin, which I vehemently


      22        opposed, if you recall, before I was on


      23        council.  So, again, I am sensitive to it.


      24             However, the issue, though, is what's


      25        before us this evening is simply a minor





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        modification to the existing PUD.  That's all


       2        that's before us.  And I -- just to get


       3        confirmation, a clarification of that from


       4        general counsel.


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  It's not minor.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  If we could refrain.


       7             Thank you.


       8             MS. ELLER:  The application of --


       9             MR. WEBB:  It's an appeal of a denial of a


      10        minor modification from the Planning


      11        Commission?


      12             MS. ELLER:  Correct.


      13             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Fair enough.


      14             MS. ELLER:  And there were changes that


      15        were made previous, but the point is that the


      16        PUD site plan was verified by the Planning


      17        Department, so there was a site plan in place,


      18        and then the applicant filed an application for


      19        a minor modification to PC.  PC denied it and


      20        they appealed it here.


      21             MR. WEBB:  Okay.  Fair enough.


      22             Moreover -- okay.  So that is what's before


      23        us this evening.


      24             And I look at the criteria for -- that we


      25        are required by law to utilize.  You know,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        pursuant to Section 656.341(F)(2), the Zoning


       2        Code, "City Council may approve changes in the


       3        plan which comply with the following criteria,"


       4        and the Planning Department has made a


       5        determination that the application is, in fact,


       6        consistent with the zoning code.


       7             Now, moreover -- and Shannon, if you or


       8        Dylan, if you can confirm this.  I understand


       9        the Planning Commission denied the application,


      10        but, at the same time, our -- what's the


      11        standard of review here?  It's de novo, is it


      12        not?


      13             MS. ELLER:  Yes.


      14             MR. WEBB:  And if you can explain what


      15        de novo review means.


      16             MS. ELLER:  Yes.


      17             A de novo review means that this committee


      18        weighs all of the evidence anew and makes a


      19        decision based upon the evidence before you.


      20             MR. WEBB:  Now, I'm not saying I'm


      21        supporting this appeal.  What I am just saying


      22        is let's be very cognizant of what it is we're


      23        doing before we cast our votes.


      24             And, moreover, I guess, the developer -- my


      25        understanding of Mr. Moore's testimony is that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        he cut -- he can go to 55 feet, and I guess


       2        there's some question -- there's probably some


       3        litigation as to whether the 55 feet includes --


       4        goes up to the top of the residence or includes


       5        other stuff as well, but ultimately the


       6        developer has cut 10 feet off of one building


       7        and tacked 10 feet on another building as an


       8        accommodation.  So I guess if they're denied


       9        here, they'll simply tack the 10 feet back on


      10        the 55, which will probably not be something


      11        that the community would want either, I guess,


      12        or would not be consistent with the agreement


      13        that was worked out informally with the


      14        community.


      15             I guess all I'm saying is that -- I'm


      16        cognizant of where the council rep is coming


      17        from on this, and just be careful, both to the


      18        community and to the council.  Community, be


      19        careful of what you ask for.  And to the


      20        council, be very careful of how we weigh the


      21        evidence in this matter.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Webb.


      23             Mr. Corrigan.


      24             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      25             Through the Chair to my colleague,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Mr. Webb.  I appreciate your thoughts, and you


       2        pretty much -- you're kind of selling it for


       3        me.  I mean, you're exactly right.  Julian


       4        LeCraw tried to do the same thing in Mandarin


       5        and, fortunately -- and what stopped it was what


       6        happened to these poor people.  That's what the


       7        impetus was that stopped it, because they said,


       8        "Oh, my God.  We don't want that to happen over


       9        here."


      10             And so I guess there is some good out of


      11        what's happened here, is that it has saved


      12        another community from having to spend their


      13        Tuesday night sitting here trying to protect


      14        their investment.


      15             And I agree with you that we need to


      16        consider only the testimony that was heard at


      17        Planning Commission, but every point I've made


      18        out -- I've made today, was brought up at the


      19        Planning Commission.


      20             Braxton Gillam listed almost word for word


      21        in his testimony on page 170 the various


      22        different changes that we have, so the evidence


      23        I'm giving you is in perfect order to be


      24        considered here today because it was presented


      25        at the Planning Commission and was part of their





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        decision-making process.


       2             The disadvantage that this project has is


       3        they don't have what many of us have, they don't


       4        have an overlay like Mandarin has and like


       5        San Marco has to help protect it.  They rely on


       6        their district councilperson, and they -- and we


       7        worked long and hard.  I mean, we went five or


       8        six times on the original process to come into


       9        this committee and frustrated the LUZ Committee


      10        at that point on approval.


      11             So I think they have done a good thing, and


      12        I think your points are well taken.  I think


      13        that's further evidence of why this should not


      14        be changed, and I think that -- I don't know --


      15        well, let me say two things.


      16             One is, I think this is going to end up in


      17        court no matter what action is taken by this


      18        council.  I think that's why you should do the


      19        right thing.  You should deny this and not


      20        consider whether it's going to go to court or


      21        not because I think whatever side does not


      22        prevail today is probably going to go to court


      23        against the other side, so we need to make a


      24        decision as a committee on what's right for this


      25        community and what was the original intent of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        this council when we passed this out several


       2        years ago.


       3             And, secondly, I think that it's -- we can


       4        send a message to the development community


       5        tonight that when this council takes action on


       6        PUDs that we're serious, and we take them


       7        seriously, and we need to make sure that we


       8        follow -- and if you don't want to -- I'm not


       9        saying that you should never change a plan.  I'm


      10        just saying, if you're going to do it, let's


      11        bring it back here to us as a PUD to PUD change,


      12        when you do the number of changes that I


      13        mentioned earlier, and let the public have input


      14        and let us negotiate a better deal.


      15             The project that MLG is building could be


      16        even a better project if they had come back here


      17        and got our input as they went through this


      18        process.


      19             Thank you.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Lee and then Mr. Shad.


      21             MS. LEE:  Thank you.


      22             Through the Chair to Ms. Eller or a


      23        planner.  Share with me why -- what your


      24        recommendation is and why, based on comments and


      25        based on what's in front of us, excluding many,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        you know, I guess, emotions of how people just


       2        generally feel about their neighborhood.


       3             Tell me why you would be for it and what


       4        parts you are for and what are you really


       5        against.


       6             Who can answer that, please?


       7             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


       8             Through the Chair to Councilmember Lee,


       9        again, initially this site plan that was part of


      10        this modification request was essentially held


      11        up in the process given the location of the


      12        buildings.  And in meetings with the applicants


      13        and the neighbors, it was based on the


      14        proximity.  Again, the building had moved


      15        essentially further east.


      16             The department had verified, however, the


      17        verification wasn't completed at that time, and


      18        so as a -- as a way to mediate or mitigate for


      19        that, essentially the developer opined and said


      20        that the height of the building could drop down


      21        to 45 feet on the east side but would request


      22        that, you know, the department basically allow


      23        for an increase in the height on the westerly


      24        side as an accommodation.


      25             We reviewed that and we looked at that in





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        relationship to the surrounding uses and the


       2        surrounding heights of some of the other


       3        buildings in the area, and there are some rather


       4        large towers in the area.  You have the


       5        Commander apartments, you do have the Ortega


       6        Yacht Club condominiums, 13 stories.  In


       7        addition to that -- that's one of the older


       8        PUDs -- in this area there's about 22 floors


       9        that can be developed on that same piece of


      10        property directly to the east.


      11             So we looked at this and we looked at the


      12        prior zoning, which was industrial waterfront


      13        property, which really had no height


      14        restrictions.  And so we felt that the breakup


      15        of the massing of these buildings on the


      16        property, combined with the agreement to


      17        basically lower the height in concession to the


      18        adjoining property owners, we felt it actually


      19        created more of a gradual transition than


      20        keeping everything at 55.


      21             So if you could step down from the higher


      22        buildings at 13 and potentially 22 stories


      23        around Roosevelt Boulevard and drop down to the


      24        six stories and then five and then the 45 feet


      25        on the easterly building, we felt that that was





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        really appropriate, a transitioning, height and


       2        intensity of the height as it relates to the


       3        waterfront and the use of this property.


       4             This was really an amendment to a written


       5        description, and maybe -- I know height has been


       6        a very sensitive issue and probably -- you know,


       7        is very contentious, and so -- I mean,


       8        increasing the height through an amendment to a


       9        written description which goes to Planning


      10        Commission -- I could understand that, you know,


      11        from the neighborhood's perspective a deal is


      12        a deal is a deal and then to come back and say,


      13        "Well, we want to go 12 feet higher" -- but from


      14        the planning perspective, we did feel that it


      15        was appropriate and a gradual transition of


      16        height.


      17             MS. LEE:  And your recommendation is to


      18        approve?


      19             MR. KELLY:  That's correct.


      20             Our original recommendation on the minor


      21        modification was an approval.


      22             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Let me -- through the


      23        Chair, may I ask one other question?


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes, ma'am.


      25             MS. LEE:  And I want to make sure I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        understand something.


       2             What we are basically discussing is a


       3        request for modification to increase the height


       4        on one side to 55?


       5             MR. KELLY:  Sixty-five.


       6             MS. LEE:  To 65.


       7             And the other side to remain at 45?


       8             MR. KELLY:  The -- again, the easterly


       9        building was allowed to be 55 feet high, but


      10        they -- I guess the applicant had agreed to


      11        go -- lower the height to 45 feet.


      12             MS. LEE:  And you made some comments about


      13        there were meetings held between the applicant


      14        and the neighbors, and they had solidified an


      15        agreement initially, prior to this modification


      16        request?  Did I hear you say that, Mr. Kelly?


      17             MR. KELLY:  It wasn't an agreement, more or


      18        less.  It was a way to get the verification


      19        process moving again and to get back into moving


      20        the application through the process, and so it


      21        was an agreement basically that the applicant


      22        conceded to to allow him to apply for the minor


      23        modification to request this increase in height.


      24             MS. LEE:  But the original application was


      25        what?  I want to make sure I'm understanding.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. KELLY:  The original application,


       2        again, was the difference between the Julian


       3        LeCraw site plan where you had the -- with the


       4        one mass of a building, and then in the site


       5        plan that was submitted as part of the minor


       6        modification, the buildings kind of separated


       7        and split apart and one of the buildings moved


       8        further east.  And so, based on the location of


       9        the building, it did get up hung up in the


      10        verification process.


      11             MS. LEE:  So let me ask you this, then,


      12        through the Chair:  What did the applicant say


      13        was the reason for the modification request?


      14        Did it have anything to do with structure?  Did


      15        it have anything to do with -- in terms of


      16        building it, that if it wasn't a certain


      17        something that it would structurally not work


      18        because of the way something was sitting or


      19        something like that?  Was that the reason or was


      20        the modification request geared towards


      21        economics?


      22             MR. KELLY:  The newer site plan, the


      23        revised site plan -- again, the building being


      24        shifted east created more view corridors for the


      25        people that would be living in the multifamily





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        units.  I think that was part of the reasoning


       2        in the amendment to the site plan.  That kind of


       3        expanded the footprint of the building.


       4             MS. LEE:  I'm sorry, would you repeat


       5        that?  Is your response in sync with my


       6        question?


       7             MR. KELLY:  It is to the extent -- when


       8        we're looking at it horizontally, not with the


       9        height --


      10             MS. LEE:  So break that down to me again a


      11        little slower.


      12             MR. KELLY:  Okay.  The original site plan,


      13        again, was the one large massing of a building


      14        along the west property line and then kind of


      15        paralleled Lakeside Drive.


      16             Once they decided to change and downsize


      17        the development from the 75-some-odd units to


      18        the 40 units -- or 38 units, they wanted to


      19        separate out the building and not keep the same


      20        large five-story building.  So the --


      21             MS. LEE:  Because of the downsizing of the


      22        number of units, that they agreed -- that they


      23        made concessions with the neighbors?


      24             MR. KELLY:  The downsizing, I don't really


      25        know where that related to the verification





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        process.  I mean, that was something they could


       2        do as a matter of right if they decided to make


       3        more upscale units, larger units in terms of


       4        square footage, but --


       5             MS. LEE:  Keep going.  You're helping me.


       6             MR. KELLY:  Again, when they did the


       7        amended site plan, it kind of pushed apart and


       8        separated the buildings basically to maintain


       9        view corridors on these larger units so that


      10        they'd have more, kind of, water access for the


      11        units on the property.


      12             And by doing that, they had to basically


      13        spread the building further east-west.  And so


      14        by moving the building -- one of the buildings


      15        further easterly, they were able to maintain the


      16        view corridor even with a lesser number of


      17        units, but it was different than the LeCraw site


      18        plan because it had encroached further towards


      19        the Graves' property and the residential


      20        property to the east, and so --


      21             MS. LEE:  So they wanted their potential


      22        tenants to be able to have a view, like the


      23        other side?


      24             MR. KELLY:  That's correct.


      25             MS. LEE:  Had it stayed just one building,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        then no matter where you lived in that building,


       2        everybody would have still had a good view?  Am


       3        I describing that?


       4             MR. KELLY:  It would be -- the original


       5        building would probably -- you'd have more


       6        obstructions and -- site obstructions, and views


       7        of the water would be decreased or diminished.


       8             MS. LEE:  And so the applicant was trying


       9        to make sure that his tenants had a view of the


      10        river; am I correct?


      11             MR. KELLY:  That is part of it, yes.


      12             MS. LEE:  Now -- and I'm almost finished.


      13             If that's the case, then tell me, then --


      14        if that's the case, then where does the


      15        obstruction of view -- if it is an obstruction


      16        of view of any existing residents within the


      17        required -- would 350 feet matter in this?  Does


      18        that take place?


      19             MR. KELLY:  In terms of the --


      20             MS. LEE:  Of who is affected.


      21             MR. KELLY:  Well, again -- I mean, it


      22        probably goes beyond 350 feet, actually --


      23             MS. LEE:  Okay.  Strike that.


      24             So if what you just described to me,


      25        basically this all about view, then with the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        changes that the -- the request for the


       2        modification, then where is the obstruction of


       3        view?  Where is that occurring, or if it is


       4        occurring as it relates to the existing


       5        homeowners, whether they are single-family


       6        dwellings or --


       7             MR. KELLY:  Well, I mean, I would just


       8        defer to the testimony from the neighborhood,


       9        that they felt it was -- you know, even the new


      10        site plan obstructed the view more than --


      11             MS. LEE:  Okay.  But that's not my


      12        question.


      13             I'm just asking, based on planning, based


      14        on -- because I have to depend on you.  Whether


      15        I support it or not is -- your thing is to do


      16        the research and to determine all things


      17        involved, view, anything else.


      18             So based on your research and what you-all