1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, November 17,
7 2009, commencing at 5:00 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 RAY HOLT, Chair.
WARREN JONES, Vice Chair.
14 REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
DANIEL DAVIS, Committee Member.
15 JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
STEPHEN JOOST, Committee Member.
16 DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
CLAY YARBOROUGH, City Council Member.
19 JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
20 FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
21 JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.
DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.
22 MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.
23
- - -
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 November 17, 2009 5:00 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good evening, everybody.
5 You are here at the Land Use and Zoning
6 Committee. If you aren't here for Land Use and
7 Zoning, you're in the wrong place. Tuesday,
8 November 17th. If you're here for Finance,
9 wrong place, wrong room.
10 All right. Let's go around and make sure
11 our nameplates are correct, starting with
12 Mr. Crofts.
13 MR. CROFTS: My name is John Crofts,
14 representing the Planning Department.
15 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
16 Development.
17 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
18 Development.
19 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford, Planning and
20 Development.
21 MR. REINGOLD: Dylan Reingold, with the
22 Office of General Counsel.
23 MR. YARBOROUGH: Clay Yarborough,
24 District 1.
25 MR. DAVIS: Daniel Davis.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. BROWN: Reginald Brown, District 10
2 DR. GAFFNEY: Dr. Gaffney, District 7.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Ray Holt, District 11.
4 MR. JONES: Warren Jones, District 9.
5 MR. JOOST: Stephen Joost, Group 3
6 at-large.
7 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
9 everybody, for being here tonight.
10 Mr. Yarborough, I believe you wanted to
11 take up 31 and 32 early, right?
12 MR. YARBOROUGH: Yes, sir.
13 Mr. Chairman and committee, I appreciate
14 your indulgence on that. Top of page 11, two
15 items. We have a land use amendment and a
16 companion rezoning.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let's open both
18 those public hearings.
19 We have no speakers.
20 We'll close the public hearing.
21 I need somebody to move 2009-800.
22 MR. JONES: Move 2009-800.
23 MR. JOOST: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on
25 2009-800.
Diane M.
Tropia,
4
1 Seeing no speakers, please open the ballot.
2 (Committee ballot opened.)
3 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
7 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
11 the vote.
12 (Committee ballot closed.)
13 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nay.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
15 approved 2009-800.
16 Steve, my queue is not coming up here.
17 MR. KELLY: To the Chair.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: We opened already.
19 MR. KELLY: Was the -- I know the agenda.
20 There is a question as to the advertising fee
21 being paid for this.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: That has been covered,
23 Mr. Reingold?
24 MR. REINGOLD: Yes.
25 MR. DAVIS: Move the bill.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
3 on 2009-801.
4 Any speakers?
5 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no questions, please
7 open the ballot.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
13 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
17 the vote.
18 (Committee ballot closed.)
19 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
21 approved 2009-801.
22 MR. YARBOROUGH: Mr. Chairman, thank you.
23 Committee, I appreciate it.
24 I think the other bill in District 1 is
25 deferred tonight, so I'll come back next time
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 for that one.
2 Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Yarborough,
4 for stopping by.
5 We had one other one we want to take out of
6 order for a gentleman who needs to get on the
7 road before it gets dark.
8 Mr. Brown, which one was that?
9 MR. BROWN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. That's
10 page 10, item 27. That's 2009-796. And
11 item 28, 2009-797.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We will open
13 both those public hearings.
14 We have one speaker, Mr. Joseph Anderson.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Please give your name and
17 address for the record, sir.
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
19 My name is Joseph Anderson. I live at 5146
21 I'm representing the Pickettville Civic
22 Association. We're here tonight to support this
23 bill. I've met with the developer.
24 Everything -- she's going to take care of
25 everything pretty good out there for us.
Diane M. Tropia,
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1 And I thank you very much.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir, for coming
3 down.
4 All right. Any other speakers?
5 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no
7 further speakers, we'll close the public
8 hearing.
9 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, we do have another
11 speaker.
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I apologize for my
13 tardiness. I was a little bit late, so I wasn't
14 able to get a speaker's card.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Just fill out a blue card
16 after you get done. You can give us your name
17 and address now, ma'am.
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay. Jody Lane Brooks,
19 7220 Financial Way,
20
21 I represent -- I'm actually the applicant
22 and I represent the property owner in this land
23 use amendment and zoning change.
24 This is for a 2.69-acre piece of property
25 at
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 industrial uses on the other three corners. And
2 we believe that just straight-up zoning is
3 applicable here for CCG-1 and there's not a
4 necessity for a PUD.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
6 ma'am.
7 Any questions of the speaker?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no
10 further speakers, we will close the public
11 hearing, and I need a motion on -796.
12 MR. BROWN: Move -796.
13 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on -796.
15 Seeing no speakers, please open the ballot.
16 (Committee ballot opened.)
17 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
21 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
25 the vote.
Diane M.
Tropia,
9
1 (Committee ballot closed.)
2 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nay.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
4 approved 2009-796.
5 2009-797. Could we have somebody from the
6 Planning Department tell us about why you're
7 recommending a denial on this?
8 MR. KELLY: Certainly.
9 Through the Chair to the committee, again,
10 this property located at the intersection of
11 Imeson and
12 that has an existing established development
13 standards and criteria in this area and there's
14 planned future growth and development in this
15 area.
16 Immediately north, you have the Westside
17 Industrial Park, which is -- as you know, this
18 is a PUD and it has a high degree of development
19 standards within the industrial park. There's
20 brick warehouse buildings and facades as well as
21 intense landscaping and berming along the
22 corridor.
23 Additionally, the areas to the north and to
24 the northeast are located within the industrial
25 sanctuary area and within the situational
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 compatibility zone.
2 The property immediately east, on the east
3 side of
4 the King/Soutel community redevelopment area,
5 which has a high degree of development standards
6 as well that are incorporated within the
7 recommendations of that master plan.
8 The department feels at this time -- the
9 zoning in and of itself we feel is too intense
10 for this location to CCG-1. Immediately west
11 abutting this property is residential low
12 density 60 and immediately south abutting this
13 property is residential low density 60.
14 We felt the CGC land use was appropriate.
15 However, there's a number of other zoning
16 districts within -- primary zoning districts
17 within the CGC land use category that we feel
18 would be more appropriate at this time, not
19 having any level of detail of what's proposed
20 for this site. You could have a commercial
21 office zoning, a CRO zoning, or a commercial
22 neighborhood zoning, which this would fall
23 within that criteria.
24 We feel the uses allowed under CCG-1 are
25 just too intense at this time, given the
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 established character of the area and the
2 planned future development for this area. We
3 feel it's not appropriate in terms of the
4 intensity of uses and in terms of other
5 aesthetic issues with what could be done by
6 right within CCG-1 in terms of signage as well.
7 So we feel it's inappropriate at this time,
8 premature. We find it to be a spot zoning
9 immediately adjacent to low density
10 residential. And, therefore, we're recommending
11 denial.
12 There's numerous policies in the staff
13 report on page 2 and 3 that also speak to that
14 as well.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
17 Mr. Jones, do you have a question?
18 MR. JONES: I certainly appreciate
19 Mr. Anderson. I know he's been out there a long
20 time, and I just want to make sure that --
21 Through the Chair, I'd like to ask
22 Mr. Anderson a question to start with.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Anderson, could you come
24 up and take a question from Mr. Jones.
25 (Mr. Anderson approaches the podium.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. JONES: Through the Chair to
2 Mr. Anderson, were you aware of the Planning
3 Department's concerns on the potential impact
4 that the commercial would have in that
5 neighborhood?
6 MR. ANDERSON: No. I was aware of the
7 Kings Road and Soutel expansion plan, and this
8 is well within -- this piece of property is well
9 within it, but I was not aware of anything else
10 at that time.
11 MR. JONES: All right. What -- do you know
12 what's planned for the -- what do they plan to
13 build if the zoning is approved?
14 MR. ANDERSON: No, I don't. They --
15 whatever they're going to build there, I've been
16 assured that it will be clean, there will not be
17 any dirty industry or anything of that nature
18 put there.
19 MR. JONES: Yeah.
20 MR. ANDERSON: It's just a very small
21 strip. It can't interfere with the environment
22 too much there.
23 All on the other side of Pritchard Road is
24 all industrial.
25 MR. JONES: Right.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. ANDERSON: On the left-hand side of --
2 going south on this piece of property is all
3 industrial. Across the street is all
4 industrial.
5 MR. JONES: Right.
6 MR. ANDERSON: So it's well within being
7 comprehensive to the neighborhood. It's well
8 within the bounds of that.
9 MR. JONES: Okay. Thank you,
10 Mr. Anderson. I appreciate that.
11 MR. ANDERSON: Okay.
12 MR. JONES: I just -- this is Mr. Brown's
13 district and I'll defer to him, but -- certainly
14 I appreciate what the owner is saying they're
15 going to do, but experience has taught me that
16 once you get the zoning, then you can do
17 whatever that zoning permits.
18 It's not saying that you're not being
19 honest. I mean, at some point the property may
20 be sold. A new owner may come in there. And
21 we've had that situation happen along Cassat
22 Avenue where they have a CCG-2 zoning. And for
23 years it's mostly automotive, and now it's
24 changing. The people are upset. But the zoning
25 is there.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 I guess, through the Chair to the
2 petitioner, did you consider a PUD that would
3 address some of those concerns?
4 MS. BROOKS: Through the Chair to
5 Councilman Jones, the -- this is a very small
6 piece of property in which there are two
7 residential properties on either side.
8 And the CCG-1 requirements of the zoning
9 code has buffering requirements. It's as if
10 they're -- that they get -- forget that there is
11 built-in requirements for uses within the zoning
12 code.
13 A PUD is not supposed to supplant and --
14 you know, to be used every time you have a
15 zoning change. And there are buffer
16 requirements and certain standards within your
17 built-in zoning code that would prohibit some of
18 the things that are being complained about for
19 this 2.69-acre piece of property, so --
20 Even within the CCG-1, there are some
21 screening and buffering requirements built into
22 that. This is a very small piece of property
23 primarily in an industrialized area, and to put
24 additional requirements on it for architectural
25 controls and some of the things that they're
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 asking through the PUD process doesn't make
2 sense to be able to bring a commercial retailer
3 to that piece of property because there -- you
4 can't spread the cost.
5 When they talk about the Westside
6 Industrial project, that was a
7 multi-hundred-acre piece of property, you know,
8 thousands of square footage that could be spread
9 across the development of that piece of
10 property, and so that --
11 And a property owner would agree to some of
12 those controls and things when the property is
13 much larger. It's a very small corner we're
14 talking about, and to add these additional
15 restrictions or requirements of a property owner
16 just doesn't make sense.
17 MR. JONES: Okay. I understand some of
18 that, but I do understand that there's some
19 usages that would be permitted by right with
20 this zoning classification that may not be
21 usable, notwithstanding what you plan to do, but
22 it may not be suitable for this area.
23 Thank you.
24 MS BROOKS: Can I address that too?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MS. BROOKS: There's some permitted --
2 there's some -- I apologize.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones didn't ask a
4 question of you, ma'am. I've got other people
5 in the queue. Maybe they'll have a question for
6 you.
7 Dr. Gaffney.
8 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9 Yes, I just wanted to expound on Councilman
10 Jones. I do have some concerns in reference to
11 not knowing what we have planned for the
12 property. However, I am always in -- would
13 defer to the district councilperson, but it's --
14 I have a little reservation with not
15 knowing because we have run into some problems
16 in the past with this type of situation, and
17 after the legislation is passed, then the
18 community and the contractors have conflicting
19 philosophy on what they want.
20 But as long as you're -- I would defer to
21 the district councilperson. And I'm pretty sure
22 that everybody did their due diligence and met
23 with the community, and we'll just see what
24 happens from here.
25 Thank you.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Dr. Gaffney.
2 Councilmember Brown.
3 MR. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair, let me
4 say this: I had the opportunity to, one,
5 schedule an initial meeting, without my presence
6 being there, with the association president as
7 well as the developer.
8 The second meeting I asked that it be a
9 community meeting, so that was conducted,
10 because I wanted to make sure that we have
11 consensus from the community. Then I --
12 Because we are concerned about the
13 Pickettville community, making sure that it's
14 not overdeveloped with this light industrial or
15 commercial, I felt that there was another need
16 to have a meeting, with not just the developer
17 or the planner. I also wanted to meet with the
18 neighborhood association president.
19 And I guess where I'm going with this --
20 and this is my reasons for supporting it out
21 there, getting consensus and confidence from
22 Mr. Anderson that their community was -- is
23 willing to put confidence in the developer.
24 Understanding clearly that they cannot
25 control what's going to happen 20 years from
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1 now, I have a complete understanding of that,
2 but having confidence -- the initial confidence
3 that things will be done in good taste and with
4 proper respect, so --
5 If I could have Ms. Allen to come forward.
6 We talked about some parameters that we can work
7 with within some exceptions.
8 And so if you can elaborate on those things
9 for me.
10 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Heather Allen, 7220
12 Financial Way, Suite 400, Jacksonville, Florida
13 32256.
14 And I'd like to say we're part of the
15 Pickettville neighborhood as well. We're
16 involved in 500 acres out there. It's not our
17 intention -- it doesn't make sense. We have a
18 vested interest in the community. We want to be
19 a good neighbor. There's the two residential
20 properties to the south and to the west. We've
21 contacted both of those property owners. No one
22 had an objection to our proposed use.
23 So it's not our intention to do anything
24 that would be disruptive to the neighborhood.
25 We've been involved with two other PUDs on
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1 our adjacent properties, none of which had
2 specific architectural controls, and those were
3 industrial and commercial uses. We placed
4 architectural controls above and beyond what was
5 required by zoning, and that's just something
6 that we do as good developers.
7 And I think that's where Mr. Anderson is
8 coming from, is that he has seen what we've done
9 in the community, so --
10 Councilman Brown had a couple of uses that
11 he was concerned about, and we will place deed
12 restrictions on the property to eliminate those
13 as permitted uses on the site, and those will
14 run with the title of the land.
15 MR. BROWN: Okay. Which -- that gives me
16 another question to Planning. It is permissible
17 to -- in regarding -- regarding the deed to
18 place limitations or restrictions for future use
19 of the property?
20 MR. CROFTS: That's both to Planning, I
21 think, and a legal question.
22 But certainly as it comes to -- as it
23 relates to enforcement, it's outside the
24 parameters of the zoning and enforcement of the
25 City of Jacksonville. That's a private matter
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 between the property owner and the succeeding
2 user.
3 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.
4 If it pleases the committee, if I could
5 pull the group to a meeting.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. We'll table it.
7 MR. BROWN: Just for a few minutes table
8 it.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll table this
10 item, and we'll go back to the beginning of our
11 agenda.
12 MR. BROWN: Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Starting on
14 page 2, items 1 and 2 are deferred.
15 Item 3, 2009-91, we will open the public
16 hearing.
17 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
18 public hearing to 1/5, take no further action.
19 Item 4 is deferred. Item 5 is deferred.
20 Item 6, we'll open the public hearing.
21 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
22 till 1/5 and take no further action.
23 Item 7 is deferred.
24 Items 8 and 9 are companions. We'll open
25 both those public hearings.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Charles Mann.
2 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
3 MR. MANN: Charles Mann, 165 Arlington
4 Road, representing the landowner.
5 Mr. Chairman, members of the committee,
6 I'll stand by for questions.
7 We're familiar with the Planning Department
8 staff's conditions and we fully accept them.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Mann.
10 Any questions for Mr. Mann?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no
13 further speakers, we will close that public
14 hearing.
15 MR. JONES: Move approval.
16 MR. DAVIS: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: On -526?
18 MR. JONES: Yes.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
20 on -526.
21 Please open the ballot.
22 (Committee ballot opened.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
5 the vote.
6 (Committee ballot closed.)
7 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
9 approved 2009-526.
10 -527. There is an amendment.
11 MR. JONES: Move the amendment.
12 MR. JOOST: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
14 amendment.
15 All in favor of the amendment --
16 MR. CROFTS: Mr. Chairman, before you vote,
17 I'd like to raise one point, that there is an
18 amendment to the -- to the amendment, and that
19 is in condition number 4. The Transportation
20 Planning section memorandum is dated
21 October 21st, 2009, and that replaces a date of
22 November 2nd, 2009. Otherwise, all the other
23 conditions and verbiage remains the same.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. Sorry, I
25 got ahead of myself there.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Mr. Mann, are you okay with all the
2 Planning Department's --
3 MR. MANN: I don't know what the second
4 amendment -- second traffic memorandum was. Did
5 it change --
6 Through the Chair to Mr. Crofts, did that
7 change or was it just a change in date?
8 MR. CROFTS: Just the date. The memo --
9 the content of the memo did not change.
10 MR. MANN: Okay.
11 MR. CROFTS: It was just an erroneous
12 reference to the date on the memo.
13 MR. MANN: Then we're comfortable with
14 that, Mr. Chairman.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
16 I have a motion and second on the
17 amendment.
18 All in favor of the amendment signify by
19 saying aye.
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
22 MR. JONES: Move the bill as amended.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and --
24 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: -- a second on the bill as
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1 amended.
2 Please open the ballot.
3 (Committee ballot opened.)
4 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
7 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
11 the vote.
12 (Committee ballot closed.)
13 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
15 approved -527.
16 MR. MANN: Thank you very much.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Mann.
18 Item 10 is deferred.
19 Item 11, we'll open the public hearing.
20 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
21 to 1/5, take no further action.
22 Item 12, 2009-656 -- I should open them
23 both.
24 Open the public hearing.
25 Seeing no speakers, we will close that
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 public hearing, take no further action.
2 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, I believe you
3 said you closed the public hearing? I think you
4 wanted to continue it.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. We'll continue
6 it to 1/5.
7 All right. On to page 6, 2009-657 and
8 -658. We will open those public hearings.
9 Seeing no speakers, we will continue them
10 both to 1/5, take no further action.
11 2009-659. We'll open the public hearing.
12 Mr. Harden.
13 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
14 MR. HARDEN: Are there any other cards?
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Nope.
16 MR. HARDEN: Okay. Paul Harden, 501
17 Riverside Avenue, and I'll be happy to answer
18 any questions on this.
19 It's a land use map amendment and the next
20 one is the companion rezoning.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Consider both
22 public hearings --
23 MR. HARDEN: Yes, sir.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: -- open.
25 Any questions for Mr. Harden?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we will close
3 both those public hearings.
4 I need a motion on -659, the land use.
5 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
6 MR. REDMAN: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on -659.
8 Seeing no speakers, please open the ballot.
9 (Committee ballot opened.)
10 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
13 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
17 the vote.
18 (Committee ballot closed.)
19 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
21 approved 2009-659.
22 On -660, there's an amendment.
23 Mr. Crofts.
24 MR. CROFTS: The amendment is -- I'll read
25 them into the record. There's six rather brief
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
27
1 conditions.
2 Number 1, "The development shall be subject
3 to the original legal description dated July 10,
4 2009."
5 Number 2, "The development shall be subject
6 to the revised written description dated
7 September 24, 2009."
8 Condition number 3, "The development shall
9 be subject to the original site plan dated
10 July 13, 2009."
11 Number 4, "Multifamily dwellings shall be
12 prohibited."
13 Number 5, "A 20-foot landscape buffer shall
14 be provided along the southern property line,
15 meeting the buffer material requirements of
16 Section 656.1216 of the zoning code."
17 Number 6," "One monument sign shall not
18 exceed 30 feet in height" -- "one monument sign
19 not to exceed 30 feet in height shall be
20 permitted."
21 That's it.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you okay with all those,
23 Mr. Harden?
24 MR. HARDEN: Yeah. Is there a size?
25 MR. KELLY: The size or the area would
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
28
1 defer back to the CCG-1, the written
2 description, based on the frontage on Timuquana.
3 MR. HARDEN: Well, I thought we'd agreed on
4 200 feet. We don't have 200 feet of frontage I
5 don't think on there because of the depth. We
6 need 200 feet if you don't object to that. I
7 think I have -- is it 150 feet?
8 MR. KELLY: I don't recall having a
9 discussion. The condition as it was, I guess,
10 relayed from Planning Commission had it not to
11 exceed 30 square feet in height, which made no
12 sense.
13 MR. HARDEN: No, that doesn't.
14 Thirty feet -- we'll limit 30 feet in
15 height, but the sign can be 200 square feet in
16 size, which is an extra 70 feet, I think.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: You guys want to fix it on
18 the fly here or --
19 MR. HARDEN: Yeah, I'd like to, if we
20 don't -- that's -- I thought that was the
21 understanding.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: -- take a pause or --
23 MR. HARDEN: I mean, Sean, I can put it
24 50 feet in the air and have it 150 feet.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine, but we need to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
29
1 make sure we get these right.
2 MR. HARDEN: I know. I understand.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: I had one last year that's
4 going to be coming back to us because the -- it
5 wasn't written correctly.
6 MR. KELLY: I think the -- the department's
7 policy, in reviewing all of the increases in
8 sign area, would defer to the normal application
9 of the code, which is generally, I believe,
10 25 percent of the sign or 10 square feet,
11 whichever is less, typically is the most that a
12 sign can be increased by with the frontage. I
13 think then you're looking at 135 feet or
14 something to that effect, based on the road
15 frontage of 125 feet.
16 I mean, the department has been consistent
17 with not trying to circumvent the code and
18 provide PUDs with excess signage, so we would
19 just -- you know, we would be okay with about
20 125 feet, I think.
21 MR. HARDEN: I got 125 feet.
22 MR. KELLY: Well, 150 feet would be more in
23 keeping.
24 MR. HARDEN: A hundred and fifty feet will
25 be fine.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Everybody okay with
2 that --
3 MR. HARDEN: It's a deal.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: -- change to the amendment?
5 MR. HARDEN: Sold.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment as amended on
7 the fly.
8 I need -- I need a motion.
9 MR. JOOST: I make a motion to approve the
10 amendment --
11 MR. REDMAN: Second.
12 MR. JOOST: -- to 150 feet.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, a restated amendment.
14 We're not going to amend.
15 Mr. Reingold.
16 MR. REINGOLD: I guess just to make sure
17 I'm clear on the condition, it would be one
18 monument sign not to exceed 30 feet in height
19 and 150 square feet in size shall be permitted?
20 MR. CROFTS: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
22 MR. HARDEN: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: So do I have a motion on
24 that?
25 MR. JOOST: Yes.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. JONES: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on the
3 amendment.
4 All those in favor signify by saying aye.
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Amendment passes.
7 MR. JONES: Move the bill as amended.
8 MR. DAVIS: Move it.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
10 bill as amended.
11 Anybody who needs to declare ex-parte
12 before we vote on this?
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Please open the
15 ballot.
16 (Committee ballot opened.)
17 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
21 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
25 the vote.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 (Committee ballot closed.)
2 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nay.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
4 approved 2009-660.
5 All right. We're down to 17. We'll open
6 the public hearing on -663 and -664.
7 No speakers.
8 We will continue the public hearing to 1/5
9 and take no further action.
10 2009-667 and -668 are companions, so we'll
11 open those public hearings.
12 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue to 1/5.
13 2009-751 is by itself. We'll open the
14 public hearing.
15 We have Staci Rewis.
16 (Ms. Rewis approaches the podium.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Rewis, I have this
18 marked as we're not taking any action tonight.
19 MS. REWIS: Right. I thought I had put
20 questions only up there, so I'm sorry.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
22 Any questions for Ms. Rewis?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: None.
25 All right. Thank you, Ms. Rewis, for
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 coming down.
2 We'll continue that public hearing, take no
3 further action.
4 All right. Number 22 we are going to take
5 action on.
6 Let's start by having Mr. McEachin tell us
7 about this on -789.
8 You're on, sir.
9 MR. McEACHIN: Mr. Chairman, this is a
10 landmark designation that's sought by the
11 property owner. It's actually a condominium and
12 it was requested by the condominium association
13 to designate this building, which was built in
14 1950, as a local landmark.
15 In preparing the application and the
16 report, we found that it meets three criteria,
17 which the preservation commission agreed and
18 submitted it forward to the City Council for
19 final action.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent. Thank you, sir.
21 Now we will open the public hearing. We
22 don't have any speakers on it, so we will close
23 the public hearing.
24 Need a motion on the bill.
25 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. REDMAN: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on
3 2009-789 to designate this property as a
4 landmark.
5 Please open the ballot.
6 (Committee ballot opened.)
7 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
11 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
15 the vote.
16 (Committee ballot closed.)
17 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
19 approved 2009-789.
20 All right. Now we're on to Morse Avenue.
21 2009-792 and -793 are companions. We'll open
22 both those public hearings.
23 And we have Mr. Mann.
24 MR. MANN: Charles Mann, 165 Arlington
25 Road, representing the landowner.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions for Mr. Mann?
2 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll note that this is a --
4 marked as a denial from the Planning Commission
5 and Planning Department.
6 MR. DAVIS: Move the bill.
7 MR. REDMAN: Second.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me close the public
9 hearing.
10 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you have --
12 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, I didn't know
13 whether the Planning Department was going to
14 make a presentation and then I would follow or
15 how this was going to work.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go ahead and close the
17 public hearing and have the Planning Department
18 say what they're going to say and then we'll
19 have questions.
20 MR. REINGOLD: It just may be best in this
21 situation in which the Planning Department is
22 recommending a denial that we don't close the
23 public hearing and thus give Mr. Mann an
24 opportunity to maybe try to rebut whatever the
25 Planning Department says.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll do it that
2 way.
3 Mr. Crofts or Mr. Kelly, you want to just
4 summarize for us?
5 MR. JOOST: Mr. Chairman, I have to declare
6 ex-parte.
7 MR. CROFTS: To the committee --
8 MR. DAVIS: Can I ask a point of
9 clarification, Mr. Chair?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
11 MR. DAVIS: I don't know if I agree with
12 the fact that we leave the public hearing open
13 because if we need to ask Mr. Mann a question,
14 we can ask him a question. I mean, if he wants
15 to speak, that's fine, but I don't understand
16 why you would leave the public hearing open for
17 Mr. Mann to speak if he wants, but that's the to
18 legal.
19 MR. REINGOLD: My thought process was just
20 from a due process standpoint, if the Planning
21 Department presented a case as to why it should
22 be denied and we didn't him give an opportunity
23 to explain why it should be approved, just to
24 prevent him from being able to speak on the
25 application --
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. DAVIS: I'll ask the applicant to give
2 his rebuttal if he wants. Or if you want to
3 leave it open, Mr. Chairman, that's fine.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's leave it open. And
5 then if we've got further questions, we can ask
6 Mr. Mann back up.
7 Go ahead, Mr. Crofts.
8 MR. CROFTS: To the committee, the
9 applicant is seeking a land use amendment to
10 agricultural land use designation on 5.62 acres
11 that has basically --
12 This property is located off Morse Avenue,
13 southwest planning district, approximately a
14 quarter to half mile inside the Beltway of 295,
15 between Blanding and I-295, on the south side of
16 Morse Avenue.
17 The land use -- our concern -- our
18 recommendation of opposition is based on the
19 fact that there are land use -- LDR land use
20 classifications surrounding it, and we're
21 concerned about the compatibility with the
22 location of the -- location and the
23 compatibility of the use in an area that's LDR,
24 which we feel is detrimental.
25 We found that it's inconsistent with
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
38
1 several objectives of the comprehensive plan for
2 policies that deal with transition of use and
3 the expansion of a commercial type of use which
4 is permitted in an agricultural type of land use
5 into a predominantly residential area.
6 So the inconsistency, incompatibility and
7 the difference and introduction of an unlike use
8 to an area that we perceive in the future going
9 residential is our primary opposition.
10 There are a myriad of commercial and
11 industrial uses that are allowed in the AGR that
12 we're concerned about that could potentially go
13 in here that will fall under the agricultural
14 land use, as I said before, dealing with
15 farming, logging, and the sale of farm supplies
16 and products and plant nurseries and landscape
17 companies and those types of things that in a
18 sense have a commercial or a truck -- have a
19 commercial or an industrial type of impact on
20 the surrounding residential areas.
21 And, again, that would be inconsistent with
22 several policies, specifically objective 1.1 --
23 policy 1.17 and 3.27 of the future land use
24 element.
25 Careful attention needs to be applied in
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
39
1 this situation. Right across the street from it
2 is the Gentle Woods subdivision to the north.
3 To the west of it there is an equestrian and a
4 dog fanciers facility.
5 Again, the overwhelming development nature
6 of this particular area is residential. And
7 because of that fact and those conditions, we
8 have concerns and recommend denial on the
9 application.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Crofts.
11 Mr. Mann.
12 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, again, what the
13 Planning Department has told you, it looks good
14 on a map, but it's not what is factually there.
15 This site is located on a collector road
16 that's operating at a C capacity. Our physical
17 site is located 350 feet south of Morse Road.
18 We have a 350-foot driveway that comes in from
19 Morse Road that separates us from any
20 residential property to the north of us, along
21 with the right-of-way to Morse Avenue.
22 We're over 450 feet away from this
23 residential subdivision that the Planning
24 Department is referencing. If you look to our
25 west, we're over 1,000 feet from our next
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
40
1 closest neighbor except for a gentleman that
2 lives right in front of our property, and we
3 introduced a letter of support for him for our
4 application at the Planning Commission and also
5 previously to the Planning Department for your
6 records.
7 But you look at that land -- there should
8 be an aerial in your packet. If you'll look at
9 that land, you'll see the predominance of that
10 is wetlands. It's going to be very hard in the
11 future to develop that as any type of
12 residential -- quality residential property just
13 due to the wetlands that are running through
14 it. And they're also denoted on the map that
15 the Planning Department has furnished me with
16 when they did a wetlands request for our site.
17 To the south of us, we're 450 feet from our
18 closest residential property. And to the west
19 of us, we have an equestrian center. Now, what
20 goes on at this equestrian center? It's my
21 understanding that it is a 24-stall barn. The
22 people are coming with pickup trucks, SUVs,
23 towing trailers, horse trailers, either doubles
24 or singles. Some people can show up even with a
25 semi now carrying horses.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
41
1 There's also the need for people coming up
2 with food, grain, wheat, oats, whatever horses
3 eat. And also there's a necessity to clean up
4 after these horses. That sometimes takes a
5 front-end loader, a backhoe. It's very similar
6 equipment that we want on our site.
7 My client, Rob Soldner, owns Green Thumb
8 Landscaping. He is a commercial landscaper and
9 maintenance man. His operation is basically, at
10 this point in time, in this economy, six trucks
11 with a trailer, very similar to a horse
12 trailer -- I mean, a truck pulling a horse
13 trailer coming and going.
14 These trucks go out -- they leave the site
15 in the morning, they go out, they maintain the
16 landscaping around commercial buildings and they
17 come back at night, drop off the trailer, and
18 then the people go home. A lot of times the
19 employees take the trucks home.
20 Part of our request is for a
21 16,000-square-foot office warehouse building to
22 be the home office for Green Thumb, and a
23 45,000-square-foot greenhouse for growing
24 plants. We're a very unintrusive use, we're a
25 very unoffensive use, we're a very low density
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
42
1 use. We don't create excessive light, we don't
2 create excessive dust, we don't create excessive
3 noise.
4 We had asked for a retail quality too in
5 the application thinking that as the business
6 grows and expands that the greenhouse may want
7 to sell retail. We certainly will have
8 wholesale buyers there.
9 And we ask for the storage of landscape
10 equipment such as a front-end loader, a bobcat,
11 a backhoe, a tractor, a small dump truck, maybe
12 a bulldozer, but this is stuff that is going to
13 be taken to a job and left or is going to be
14 brought back and stored, outside storage.
15 We also ask for the outside storage of
16 landscape materials such as mulch, you know,
17 dirt, you know, things such as this that is used
18 when you go out and freshen the landscaping
19 around an office building or you create an
20 entryway or something like that.
21 But the equipment is not going to primarily
22 be used on the site. It will be stored there
23 and used off site and taken very rarely off,
24 left at the site until the job is finished and
25 then brought back.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 We feel like we're very capable with the
2 existing surroundings. And in the future, if
3 the land -- if the adjoining wetlands are
4 developed residentially, we should be compatible
5 with that. How much -- what better neighbor can
6 you have than growing plants? I mean, that's
7 what we all want.
8 The staff report has 11 items of criteria.
9 We agree with two, three, seven, eight, nine,
10 ten and eleven. We basically take offense to
11 items one, four, five and six.
12 Item one, they're giving you objectives as
13 far as gradual transitions of densities. How
14 can you be a less intense use than what we're
15 proposing?
16 You know, if you think about a retail and
17 plant nursery, people come there on Saturday
18 afternoons, Sunday afternoons. It's not a 9:00
19 to 5:00 shopping. People may come during the
20 day, but very sparse traffic during the day.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mann, we didn't put a
22 timer on you, so you --
23 MR. MANN: Wrap it up.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. Well, Mr. Davis has a
25 question for you.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. MANN: Okay.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis.
3 MR. DAVIS: Actually, I don't have a
4 question for him.
5 How do you want to handle it?
6 MR. MANN: You just want to shut me up.
7 MR. DAVIS: No. I mean, I think that -- I
8 don't know how long you're going to go. We
9 might -- we might have questions, but I wanted
10 to really kind of talk to the committee and to
11 the Planning Department.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, if you
13 could hold on and we'll close the public
14 hearing.
15 And, Mr. Mann, I'll give you another
16 30 seconds to wrap up your comments.
17 MR. MANN: Well, they talk about internal
18 compatibility, that we have -- we don't take
19 pedestrians -- we have a sidewalk in front of
20 the property. Our use is such that we really
21 don't need a sidewalk into our property, but
22 we'll provide for pedestrian circulation around
23 our site. We feel like we're internally
24 compatible.
25 They also tell you in their application
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
45
1 that we go through an LDR piece of property to
2 access our property. That is not correct. We
3 have a 50-by-350-foot strip of land from Morse
4 Road to our site that is deeded, part of our
5 application, that will be rezoned if this is
6 approved with our application. So we're not
7 going through an LDR site property to access our
8 property, and we feel like we're compatible with
9 the adjoining surrounding wetlands or this
10 equestrian center and the rural nature of this
11 area.
12 We would ask that you support our
13 application and let this man improve his
14 business and go forward.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
17 We're not getting a bong.
18 MR. CASSADA: Yeah, something happened.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Why is it not cutting
20 Mr. Mann off?
21 MR. DAVIS: He went, like, for ten minutes
22 or something.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: It went down to zero and
24 then it started going back up. I don't know
25 what --
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. CASSADA: (Inaudible.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
3 All right. Mr. Joost, do you have a
4 question?
5 MR. JOOST: Mr. Chair --
6 MR. MANN: I have a question.
7 MR. DAVIS: How did I lose the floor?
8 THE CHAIRMAN: You weren't asking a
9 question. He's asking a question.
10 MR. JOOST: Sorry, Daniel.
11 Mr. Mann, other than the one neighbor who
12 actually supports the project, are there any
13 letters of opposition to this?
14 MR. MANN: Not to my knowledge. We've had
15 no -- no letters to -- of opposition from
16 anybody. We've had our signs up. We've got
17 pictures of where our signs were posted on the
18 property, both the land use and the zoning.
19 MR. JOOST: Yeah, I was looking at one of
20 the pictures, and I think I saw a SEDA project
21 or something. So none of those -- no folks in
22 that neighborhood object whatsoever?
23 MR. MANN: They've not made their objection
24 known to me.
25 MR. JOOST: Okay. Thank you.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
47
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones.
2 MR. JONES: Through the Chair to Mr. Mann,
3 I noticed to the east -- what is to the east of
4 that property?
5 MR. MANN: It's about 1,000 feet before you
6 get to the next residential property,
7 Mr. Jones. But that is predominantly wet, that
8 1,000 feet.
9 MR. JONES: It's wetlands?
10 MR. MANN: Yes, sir, wetlands.
11 MR. JONES: So you've got a natural buffer
12 between the residential --
13 MR. MANN: Well, Mr. Jones, you're in the
14 real estate business. We know that you can
15 mitigate wetlands, but this is a fairly large
16 wetlands. It would be very -- very expensive
17 and very costly to wetlands -- I mean, to
18 mitigate in my opinion, so it's going to serve
19 as a buffer between us and the residents to the
20 east.
21 MR. JONES: And to the north, that's
22 residential, isn't it?
23 MR. MANN: To the north we've got 350 feet
24 between our property and Morse Road, then you've
25 got the right-of-way for Morse Road, and then
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
48
1 you've got your residential across the street
2 from that.
3 MR. JONES: Okay. So you -- so that -- the
4 strip that goes up to Morse is just the access
5 road?
6 MR. MANN: Yes, sir, that is correct.
7 MR. JONES: And what about to the south?
8 MR. MANN: South. We are about 450 feet
9 from our closest residential neighbor there.
10 Based on the aerial that I looked at, it
11 appeared to be undeveloped lots.
12 MR. JONES: Okay. And what's on the
13 property now?
14 MR. MANN: Right now the property is
15 vacant.
16 MR. JONES: Okay. All right.
17 And this is the least intrusive zoning you
18 could get to --
19 MR. MANN: We felt it was the most
20 compatible zoning that we could come up with
21 that would allow for my client's use. That's
22 why we did the PUD, so that we could put
23 restrictions on it. Anybody coming in for a
24 more intense use in the future, of course, is
25 going to have to come back before this
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
49
1 committee.
2 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
4 Mr. Jones.
5 Seeing no further speakers, we will close
6 the public hearing.
7 Mr. Davis.
8 MR. DAVIS: I guess -- Mr. Mann came to me
9 a long time ago to talk about this, so I guess
10 I'm declaring ex-parte communication at this
11 time.
12 And when we talked about it, what was the
13 original -- Mr. Mann, what was the original
14 request that you brought on? I don't remember
15 exactly.
16 MR. MANN: Oh, that I had a commercial
17 landscaper that was looking to come in. We
18 suggested either a commercial zoning here or
19 possibly a BP zoning here.
20 MR. DAVIS: I remember the BP. That's what
21 it was.
22 I wasn't interested in that. I'll just let
23 the committee know. I felt like that did not
24 match, but if you -- I'm looking at the aerial
25 now right. You look at it and it's right next
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
50
1 to the equestrian center, which I think is
2 pretty much a commercial use, but I think it's
3 kind of compatible with residential. Might be
4 just from where I'm from, where I think that
5 they can -- it's pretty compatible.
6 But when you think about on the Westside,
7 we -- I've got several landscape nurseries mixed
8 in with residential, like at Haskell's nursery
9 right over there on Hammond. On Blair Road
10 there's several nurseries. And it's kind of --
11 I think it kind of adds to the quality of life
12 to have that there. It's just my thought. I
13 know my wife likes going up there and buying
14 plants and bringing them home.
15 If you were going to have any type of
16 nonresidential use here, AGR would be exactly
17 what I would look for, especially right next to
18 the equestrian center.
19 I guess I tend to agree with the Planning
20 Department where they talk about the retail
21 sales, although I could probably live with
22 retail sales. But, I mean, if it helps the
23 Planning Department get a little bit more
24 comfortable, then I could deal with that.
25 And to be honest with you, for a commercial
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
51
1 use, plants don't make a whole bunch of noise,
2 you know. I think that it kind of would be
3 okay, so I don't have a problem with this.
4 I wouldn't mind putting some adjustments
5 on -- maybe the size of equipment that could be
6 used there. I'd lean on the Planning Department
7 for what some of their suggestions would be if
8 they had any.
9 And I don't mind removing the retail sales
10 to give them an opportunity to have a plant
11 nursery out there.
12 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, through the Chair
13 to Mr. Davis, if the restriction of the retail
14 sales and the reducing of the equipment to no
15 bulldozers and some sort of reduced size of dump
16 truck, my client would be more than willing to
17 accept that.
18 MR. DAVIS: See, I remember when I used to
19 work for a nursery, we had to use bobcats to
20 load up mulch in people's pickup trucks and
21 things like that. I would assume they would
22 have to have that type of equipment on this
23 piece of property.
24 MR. MANN: We need a bobcat, we need a
25 tractor, we need a front-end loader, we need a
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1 small dump truck.
2 MR. DAVIS: I don't know what size those
3 are. I don't know how to write that into a
4 piece of legislation.
5 MR. MANN: I don't either.
6 MR. DAVIS: But I guess that's my -- that's
7 kind of where I am, to the committee. And I
8 don't know if the Planning Department has any
9 thoughts on that, knowing kind of where I am on
10 it, if they have any helpful suggestions.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crofts, Mr. Kelly.
12 MR. KELLY: We could phrase a condition
13 specifically to no heavy equipment or machinery
14 except for, and then specifically listing the
15 front-end loader, the small dump truck, the
16 bobcat, the -- and then the tractor, if that's
17 sufficient.
18 So that would exclude basically, you know,
19 the mulching -- if there's an outdoor mulching
20 operation, a big chipper/shredder thing going,
21 that would eliminate a bulldozer, that would
22 eliminate the grading kind of equipment out
23 there. Yeah, I think that would be probably the
24 way to go about it.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis.
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1 MR. DAVIS: Committee, that's what I would
2 support. I believe it's compatible with what's
3 around it, and I would ask you to support the
4 same thing with the -- with the amendment to
5 have no retail sales and to -- I guess you guys
6 can word the description as far as what
7 machinery can be used.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir.
9 But just to clarify, the amendment is for
10 no retail sales and no -- of what equipment?
11 MR. DAVIS: What would you classify it,
12 heavy equipment, or what would be the difference
13 between heavy equipment and small heavy
14 equipment?
15 MR. JOOST: One is heavier.
16 MR. DAVIS: Yes.
17 MR. KELLY: We would -- I mean, just
18 define -- heavy vehicles and equipment would be
19 prohibited except for the use of a bobcat, the
20 use of a front-end loader, the use of a tractor,
21 and I think there was one other or two other.
22 MR. MANN: A small dump truck and I left
23 out a backhoe.
24 MR. DAVIS: What is a small dump truck?
25 Because I know -- I'm just speaking from
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1 experience. When I was working through college,
2 I toted around mulch and dumped it in people's
3 yards, and I know it was not a big dump truck.
4 It was like a midsize truck with a hydraulic
5 lift that would dump mulch out.
6 MR. MANN: My client said -- I believe it
7 was a 16,000-pound dump truck or less, which I
8 think that's the gross weight loaded.
9 MR. DAVIS: I don't know what that means.
10 MR. MANN: And I don't either. I mean, I
11 don't know anything about dump trucks. I
12 outgrew playing with Tinker Toys or --
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Somebody back there is
14 motioning maximum seven --
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Seven yards.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Seven yards.
17 MR. MANN: A small dump truck around seven
18 yards?
19 MR. DAVIS: Why don't we do this: Could we
20 have a floor amendment and clear this up so we
21 have something that's -- we know we've got the
22 idea of what we want, but I'd really rather them
23 work on some language instead of us messing
24 something up here on the floor tonight.
25 And then if you guys could help me support
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1 it Tuesday night as far as the floor amendment
2 would go, that would probably be the best way,
3 instead of us trying to do it right here.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. Let's solve it during
5 the week.
6 MR. DAVIS: Yeah.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
8 MR. REDMAN: I just need to declare
9 ex-parte communication.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: You want to do that on the
11 zoning?
12 MR. REDMAN: Whenever you want me to.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's do it on the
14 zoning.
15 Mr. Jones.
16 MR. JONES: Through the chair to Mr. Davis,
17 are we talking about storage or just use?
18 MR. DAVIS: Oh, I think that -- they're
19 going to have to take a bobcat, fill it up with
20 mulch, and stick it in the back of one of these
21 trucks and take it to somebody's piece of
22 property and dump it. Okay?
23 MR. JONES: Right.
24 MR. DAVIS: So you're going to have to use
25 this type of product on the site.
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1 I don't think there's a problem with that.
2 Looking at this map and understanding what I
3 know about it, that's going to be much less
4 intrusive than however many 60-foot lots you
5 could stick on this property. Okay?
6 So I think you're going to have to have
7 usage there. I think they'd be crazy not to
8 have any type of usage. I just think you don't
9 want to have a big clanging of huge dump trucks
10 like the big old dump trucks.
11 MR. JONES: I'm sorry. My question is the
12 other vehicles. The heavier dump truck will be
13 prohibited, period. There's no storage of any
14 type of heavy equipment?
15 MR. MANN: No heavy dump truck and no
16 bulldozer will be allowed on the property.
17 MR. DAVIS: No, but you'd have to -- yeah,
18 you'd have to store and use the light --
19 lighter --
20 MR. JONES: But heavy equipment won't be
21 permitted on there at all?
22 MR. MANN: That is correct.
23 MR. JONES: Okay. Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Dr. Gaffney.
25 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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1 No, I just wanted to expound on some of the
2 things some of the other committee members have
3 shared. And basically having been somewhat
4 familiar with some landscaping and nurseries out
5 there, fairly -- they're fairly clean
6 businesses, you know, green businesses. They're
7 not a lot of noise, so -- I think with the
8 equestrian center out there, it fits in very
9 well.
10 I just concur with the councilman, that --
11 if he's okay. We haven't had a lot of
12 complaints from the community, so obviously the
13 gentleman has done his business, done his
14 homework and due diligence. And the other
15 community folks don't seem to be that concerned,
16 so I just support this and encourage everybody
17 else to --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Dr. Gaffney.
19 Mr. Joost.
20 MR. JOOST: I was just going to suggest --
21 I don't know if there's one other thing. I'm
22 not so much concerned about the equipment,
23 per se, but I was wondering maybe if there
24 should be a restriction on the hours of
25 operation. I mean, obviously, you don't want a
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1 dump truck at six o'clock in the morning, you
2 know, or at midnight, so that --
3 MR. DAVIS: Who's not working at
4 six o'clock?
5 MR. JOOST: I know I am, but I don't know
6 about you.
7 So I'm thinking more in terms of if we just
8 restrict the hours, that would take care of any
9 future complaints versus like trying to get this
10 thing of like what type of equipment you're
11 going to allow on the premises.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis said they're going
13 to work that out during the week.
14 MR. DAVIS: I think so. I think that makes
15 a lot of sense.
16 MR. JOOST: Excellent.
17 MR. DAVIS: I just know that a lot of
18 landscapers get to work early so they can get to
19 the site. I don't want them working late at
20 night, but if somebody gets there early in the
21 morning --
22 So let me work on some hours and bring it
23 back to you guys.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Jones.
25 MR. JONES: Are we to move an undefined
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1 amendment so we can get this out Tuesday?
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think we're going to
3 move any amendment.
4 MR. DAVIS: (Inaudible.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
6 MR. JONES: You want to move the bill and
7 then come back with an amendment?
8 MR. DAVIS: Yes.
9 MR. JONES: Through the Chair to
10 Mr. Reingold.
11 MR. REINGOLD: I think first, obviously,
12 that the committee would need to vote on the
13 land use, but, second, if -- if I hear what the
14 councilmember is saying in terms of working on
15 an amendment and that we -- but it may be good
16 just to have the basic structure of a PUD
17 amendment, which would be the written
18 description, site plan, and legal description
19 and the traffic memo, and then the floor
20 amendment would essentially incorporate that,
21 plus whatever additional restrictions that come
22 up by Tuesday.
23 MR. JONES: With that, Mr. Chairman, I move
24 the amendment.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Move the bill.
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1 MR. DAVIS: We have to move the land use.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean you'll move the
3 bill? We're on the land use.
4 MR. JONES: I move the amendment.
5 MR. BROWN: Second.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and a second on
7 -792.
8 Please open the ballot.
9 (Committee ballot opened.)
10 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
14 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
18 the vote.
19 (Committee ballot closed.)
20 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nay.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
22 approved -792, the land use.
23 2009-793.
24 We need some folks to declare their
25 ex-parte.
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1 Mr. Joost.
2 MR. JOOST: Yes. This afternoon I had
3 ex-parte communications with Mr. Mann and we
4 discussed the project in my office.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
6 MR. REDMAN: I need to declare ex-parte
7 this afternoon. I had a conversation with
8 Mr. Mann in my office where he explained the
9 site plan.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis.
11 MR. DAVIS: I've had communications with
12 Mr. Mann at the beginning of this process to
13 let -- his latest today.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones.
15 MR. JONES: I wanted to declare ex-parte
16 with Mr. Mann, Charles Mann at five o'clock
17 today, where we discussed the rezoning, the
18 planned unit development, and the fact that
19 there was no opposition, neighborhood
20 opposition.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine.
23 Dr. Gaffney.
24 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes. I wish to declare
25 ex-parte. I had communication with Mr. Mann
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1 today in my office around 4:30 where we
2 discussed the project.
3 Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
5 And Mr. Brown.
6 MR. BROWN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I'd also
7 like to declare ex-parte with Mr. Mann. I had a
8 conversation this afternoon walking towards the
9 committee meeting to discuss the site plan.
10 Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: And I too had -- will
12 declare ex-parte to Mr. Mann at 4:15. So it was
13 4:15 for me, 4:30 -- and we discussed the
14 properties surrounding the subject property.
15 All right. So we have all declared
16 ex-parte.
17 I need a motion on --
18 MR. JONES: Move the amendment.
19 MR. BROWN: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: There's no amendment.
21 Is there an amendment?
22 MR. REINGOLD: To the committee,
23 essentially it would be the original site plan.
24 The original -- the conditions would be the
25 original site plan, the original legal
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1 description and the original written
2 description, plus the traffic memo, which is
3 dated October 19, 2009.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent. Thank you.
5 I must have an old agenda.
6 Mr. Mann, are you okay with all those?
7 MR. MANN: Yes, sir, I am.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: And we'll work on the other
9 ones in the future.
10 I have a motion and second on the
11 amendment.
12 Please -- I'm sorry.
13 All in favor of the amendment signify by
14 saying aye.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
17 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
18 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
20 bill as amended.
21 Please open the ballot.
22 Wait.
23 MR. DAVIS: Yes. Just for the record, we
24 will bring some type of written amendment to the
25 floor. What I would do is ask Mr. Mann to draft
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1 the amendment so staff doesn't have to do it on
2 City time. And if you could get it to staff and
3 let them look at it, you guys work out something
4 that you think meets what I'm looking for. And
5 then, obviously, I'd bring it back to the
6 committee.
7 But I'd like for you to work on that.
8 MR. MANN: Yes, sir.
9 MR. DAVIS: Bring it to the Planning
10 Department, please.
11 MR. MANN: Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Davis.
13 The ballot is open.
14 (Committee ballot opened.)
15 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
19 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
23 the vote.
24 (Committee ballot closed.)
25 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nay.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
2 approved -793.
3 MR. MANN: Thank you very much, committee.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good luck working together
5 this week and come up with a great amendment
6 next Tuesday.
7 All right. We are on to items 25 and 26,
8 which are companions.
9 We will open the public hearing. First we
10 have Reverend Noel Roberts.
11 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir.
13 I'm Reverend Noel Roberts. I pastor
14 Baptist Temple Assembly of God.
15 As many of you know, they're putting the
16 new Hammond exchange directly behind our
17 church. We need to change our zoning in order
18 to apply for more signage. As it is now, we
19 cannot get any additional signage with it being
20 rural residential.
21 So I'm here to answer any questions you may
22 have.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions for Reverend
24 Roberts?
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, thank you, sir,
2 for coming down.
3 We will close the public hearing.
4 I need a motion on -794.
5 MR. DAVIS: Move the bill.
6 MR. JOOST: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second
8 on -794, the land use.
9 Please open the ballot.
10 (Committee ballot opened.)
11 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
15 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
19 the vote.
20 (Committee ballot closed.)
21 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nay.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
23 approved -794.
24 -795.
25 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
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1 MR. BROWN: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on -795.
3 Anyone need to declare an ex-parte?
4 MR. DAVIS: Yes, I need to declare
5 ex-parte, Mr. Chairman. I had an opportunity to
6 speak with the fine reverend on this issue.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
8 Seeing no other speakers, we will open the
9 ballot.
10 (Committee ballot opened.)
11 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
15 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
19 the vote.
20 (Committee ballot closed.)
21 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
22 DR. GAFFNEY: (Inaudible.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Exactly.
24 Just like Dr. Gaffney said, by your action
25 you have approved -795.
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1 All right. I was in conference with my
2 general counsel there who told me that I should
3 have ex-parte declared before the public
4 hearing.
5 So we're going to open the public hearing
6 on -796 and -797. But before that, anybody need
7 to declare ex-parte on -797?
8 Mr. Brown.
9 MR. BROWN: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to
10 declare ex-parte on this particular 2009-797.
11 On November 13th, I had an opportunity to
12 meet with the neighborhood association
13 president, Mr. Anderson, as well as Ms. Allen.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
15 All right.
16 MR. BROWN: Oh, and the -- we definitely
17 talked about the site plan and -- and really
18 more than just the site plan, but we also
19 discussed the residents and how they felt about
20 this proposed change.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We've already
23 closed the public hearing on this, I believe,
24 and we were in discussion on --
25 Were we on -96 or -97 when we left off?
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1 MR. REINGOLD: To the --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: We approved -96 and we're on
3 -97 now.
4 Okay.
5 MR. REINGOLD: And you had tabled that
6 bill, sir.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Exactly.
8 Okay. So now we are back on -797 and we're
9 in discussion.
10 Mr. Brown, you need to speak again?
11 MR. BROWN: Yes, I do.
12 I had a chance again to speak with all
13 parties involved, and I was reminded that at the
14 neighborhood association meeting we did have 45
15 members there, a vote was taken. There was no
16 one in opposition regarding this particular
17 change.
18 We did look at it. We do feel -- and this
19 is why I support it. I believe that it's
20 important to -- and I respect the work that was
21 done, first of all, by the Planning Department.
22 I have no problems with that.
23 But also I believe that it's just as
24 equally important to look at bills and talk with
25 the neighbors that would be impacted by it. And
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1 like I stated earlier, we had 45 members there.
2 They believe that it would be compatible to the
3 community, so I support it because there was
4 entirely no oppositions to this bill. It may be
5 stepping -- not necessarily out of order, but
6 doing something that our Planning Department
7 advised differently, but after sitting down with
8 all parties, we truly believe that this is going
9 to go in the right direction and we're also
10 going to rely on the deed restrictions portion
11 of it to give us the protection that we need.
12 And the community, the neighborhood
13 association president, their leader, is here to
14 stand and support that.
15 So I ask that my colleagues support it as
16 well.
17 Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
19 Dr. Gaffney.
20 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. President --
21 Mr. Chairman.
22 Anyway, I just wanted to expound on what
23 the -- what the district councilperson were
24 saying. I -- after listening to some of the
25 discussion here and Mr. Anderson being the
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1 president and representing the people in the
2 community and the councilperson had a meeting
3 and met with everybody and did his due
4 diligence -- I appreciate their great due
5 diligence and the good works that the Planning
6 Department has done; however, if the
7 community -- we as advocates and representatives
8 are also supposed to listen to the community.
9 So if the community is for this, then I think,
10 you know, we should follow the recommendation of
11 the community.
12 So I think the president has a lot of
13 integrity. That's why the people elected him as
14 the president and they trust him. So if the
15 district councilperson has met with him, then I
16 just want to encourage everybody to support it
17 and I support it.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Dr. Gaffney.
19 Mr. Jones.
20 MR. JONES: Through the Chair to Councilman
21 Brown, are the deed restrictions going to be a
22 part -- are you going to amend those into the
23 ordinance? Because --
24 MR. BROWN: Okay. My understanding --
25 Would you like to answer that question?
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1 MS. BROOKS: Through the Chair --
2 MR. BROWN: Heather kind of nodded to you.
3 We can have Heather come forward.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold is saying we
5 can't do that.
6 MR. REINGOLD: Yeah, I'm nodding my head
7 no. You can't do that. It's a straight
8 rezoning. There's no way to sort of add
9 conditions to the straight rezoning.
10 MR. JOOST: So what happens in the future?
11 MR. JONES: I hear the councilman and I'll
12 support it because the residents do, but it's
13 very, very difficult when you have commitments
14 that no one, that community, or nobody on this
15 council can enforce anything they tell you.
16 Not saying they're dishonest, but if
17 ownership changes, as plans change, then if you
18 get something that is detrimental to that
19 community, then they're going to look to us, and
20 we're the ones that approved it.
21 No matter what they tell you -- and I'm not
22 saying they're dishonest. It's just reality
23 that properties change hands and commitments
24 with that change. And unless those -- deed
25 restrictions or something, that the City can
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1 enforce, then if --
2 And I've had it happen. A guy was going to
3 put a convenience store at Beaver and Acorn
4 Street. He didn't put that there, and the
5 neighbors were upset. Okay? So just caution.
6 And not what he -- he didn't deceive us.
7 He sold the property, and the new owner decided
8 he was going to put something else. So you have
9 to be very careful about that, and that's the
10 only caution I would give to you and to the
11 community going forward because you can't
12 control it.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Jones.
14 Mr. Joost.
15 MR. JOOST: Through the Chair to
16 Mr. Reingold or some -- how do we -- I mean, is
17 there a way to address Councilman Jones'
18 concern -- my concern? Because I know, you
19 know, we've -- I've bought property and sold it
20 and ownership changes over years. I mean,
21 that's just the nature of the game.
22 And at some point somebody else is going to
23 be an owner, you know, probably when we're all,
24 you know, long gone from this chamber and
25 nobody -- the guy is going to say, well, I
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1 bought it and it's zoned for X, and that's what
2 I'm putting here because that's what it's zoned
3 for. And there are no -- no official
4 restrictions, if you will.
5 Is there another way to go about this?
6 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair to the
7 councilmember, I may be kind of stepping out on
8 a limb on this one, but there is another option,
9 and I know we haven't really used it a lot in
10 Jacksonville.
11 But if the applicant wanted to record a
12 declaration of restrictions on their property
13 and -- and I'm just throwing this out as part of
14 the discussion -- and have the City be an entity
15 that could enforce those restrictions, you could
16 potentially approve the bill after such
17 restrictions have been recorded on the property,
18 thus you would know you would have those. It
19 wouldn't be technically a part of the zoning and
20 part of that ordinance; however, it would be a
21 recorded document on that property.
22 I'm just throwing something out there that
23 I know has been discussed in the past.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, is that something
25 you would consider?
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1 MR. JOOST: But the City could enforce
2 that?
3 MR. REINGOLD: It would depend on how the
4 declaration of restrictions and covenants were
5 drafted. It may not say that the City would be
6 somebody who could enforce them -- or it could
7 say the City would be an entity that would be
8 capable of enforcing those actions through
9 either the zoning code enforcement processes or
10 through going to court. It could specify those
11 actions within the declaration itself.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, is that something
13 you'd be willing to do?
14 MR. BROWN: Yes. I would like to --
15 Mr. Chairman, through the Chairman, if you could
16 respond to the --
17 MS. ALLEN: The property owner would be
18 willing to put a declaration of restrictive
19 covenants on the property.
20 But one of the issues is, what is your true
21 concern about the CCG-1? What use do you think
22 is going to be in violation of the area? I'm
23 just curious.
24 MR. BROWN: Okay. I can answer that
25 question.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on.
2 Let me ask Mr. Reingold a question.
3 How long of a process is that?
4 MR. REINGOLD: That type of process is an
5 internal process for the applicant. They could
6 draft up a declaration of restrictions and
7 covenants.
8 I would recommend that there be a provision
9 in there that it could not be amended unless
10 approved by the City Council, and if they took
11 that route -- and that it be recorded prior to
12 the zoning being approved, and those types of
13 things.
14 But, again, if they drafted it up, ran it
15 through our office, we could probably review it
16 and try to work with them to get it done as soon
17 as possible.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Could that be done within --
19 between now and next Tuesday?
20 MS. ALLEN: I'm sorry. Through the Chair
21 to --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm asking Mr. Reingold.
23 Is that something that could be done?
24 MR. REINGOLD: I would certainly work hard
25 on getting that done.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: But do you feel like it is
2 something that could be done between now and
3 Tuesday?
4 MR. REINGOLD: (Nods head.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
6 Mr. Brown.
7 MR. BROWN: Okay. I'm fine with that.
8 But to answer your question, it was really
9 my concern with the CCG-1. And I won't belabor
10 the evening with this, but there was a huge
11 problem. It allows pretty much everything.
12 It's a free-fall for everything.
13 And so what I noticed was an increase of
14 night entertainment spots, for example. And so
15 that was just one in particular that I wanted to
16 make sure that we're able to manage as a
17 community.
18 But after speaking with Ms. Allen and the
19 meeting with the community, we all are in
20 agreement that that's not what we want for the
21 Pickettville community, but we do -- I like what
22 was presented in terms of a declaration. It
23 appears that you-all are in agreement with it.
24 I'd like to move forward with that as well.
25 Thank you.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost.
2 (Mr. Jones assumes the chair.)
3 MR. JOOST: Oh, my button was still up from
4 the last time. But since I'm talking, I think
5 we should do the declaration that the landowner
6 does and move forward with that. That way we've
7 restricted it so someone else doesn't come in
8 later and, you know, put in a nightclub or
9 whatever the CCG-1 is going to allow that we're
10 not contemplating right now because, like I
11 said, none of us are going to be around in
12 10 years or 20 years on the council, you know.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Joost.
14 Mr. Holt.
15 MR. HOLT: Thank you, sir.
16 Through the Chair to Mr. Brown, I think
17 that's a great solution to this problem and
18 something that I've used myself in a lot of
19 different PUD situations and eliminating things
20 like nightclubs, bars, adult use type of uses.
21 And I would support this in anticipation
22 that by next Tuesday we would have some of those
23 things hammered out and Mr. Reingold works on
24 it, and then Tuesday we have that assurance that
25 if we move it forward as a full council that
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1 those uses are not going to be allowed.
2 Thank you.
3 (Mr. Holt resumes the chair.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Jones.
5 All right. So we have no further
6 speakers. So we can --
7 MR. JONES: Move approval.
8 MR. DAVIS: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and
10 second --
11 MR. DAVIS: Are we going to amend?
12 THE CHAIRMAN: No, we're not going to
13 amend. We're going to wait until Tuesday and
14 hear what happens with Mr. Reingold.
15 All right. All right. Please open the
16 ballot on -797.
17 (Committee ballot opened.)
18 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
22 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
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1 the vote.
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
5 approved 2009-797.
6 Look forward to hearing what you guys
7 hammer out over this week so that we can move
8 forward on Tuesday.
9 MS. ALLEN: Thank you very much.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
11 All right. The next two items are
12 companions.
13 I'll go ahead and open the public hearing
14 on -798 and -799.
15 Please declare your ex-parte during the
16 public hearing.
17 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
18 MR. MANN: Charles Mann, 165 Arlington
19 Road, representing the landowner.
20 I'll stand by for questions.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Mann.
23 Any questions for Mr. Mann or anyone need
24 to declare ex-parte?
25 Dr. Gaffney.
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you.
2 I just wish to declare ex-parte. I've had
3 a conversation with Mr. Mann about this project.
4 Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Dr. Gaffney.
6 Seeing no further speakers, we will close
7 the public hearing.
8 Need a motion on -798.
9 MR. JOOST: Move it.
10 MR. REDMAN: Second.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
12 land use, -798.
13 Please open the ballot.
14 (Committee ballot opened.)
15 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
19 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
23 the vote.
24 (Committee ballot closed.)
25 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
2 approved 2009-798.
3 -799.
4 MR. JOOST: Move -799.
5 MR. JONES: Second.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on -799.
7 Please open the ballot.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
13 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
17 the vote.
18 (Committee ballot closed.)
19 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
21 approved -799.
22 Thank you, Mr. Mann.
23 MR. MANN: Committee, thank you very much.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We've already
25 done -800 and -801.
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1 We'll go to -802, -803. Open both those
2 public hearings.
3 Anybody need to declare an ex-parte?
4 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: We have Roshanda Jackson.
6 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Available for questions?
8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Questions only.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions only.
10 Seeing no questions, we will close the
11 public hearing.
12 I need a motion on -802.
13 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
14 MR. JONES: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on -802.
16 Please open the ballot.
17 (Committee ballot opened.)
18 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
22 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
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1 the vote.
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
5 approved -802.
6 -803.
7 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
8 MR. JONES: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on -803.
10 Please open the ballot.
11 (Committee ballot opened.)
12 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
16 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
20 the vote.
21 (Committee ballot closed.)
22 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
24 approved -803.
25 All right. On to page 12, -830, -31, -32
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1 -33 are all deferred.
2 -834 on page 13 is deferred.
3 We are at 2009-835.
4 Open the public hearing.
5 No speakers.
6 Close the public hearing.
7 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
8 MR. DAVIS: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
10 bill, -835.
11 Please open the ballot.
12 (Committee ballot opened.)
13 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
17 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
21 the vote.
22 (Committee ballot closed.)
23 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
25 approved -835.
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1 Now we have our appeal of the Jacksonville
2 Historic Preservation Commission, and this one
3 is going to -- we need to go by procedure here.
4 Let's start off by having Mr. Teal tell us
5 what happened at the Historic Preservation
6 Commission because I know this is kind of
7 complicated.
8 Just explain it and kind of tee it up for
9 us, and then we're going to go to the appellant,
10 then we'll go to the opposition, and then we'll
11 go back to Mr. Teal so that he can explain the
12 issues. And then we'll go back to the appellant
13 so he can rebut both the opposition and
14 Mr. Teal.
15 MR. TEAL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 This is an appeal from an application for a
17 certificate of appropriateness in one of the
18 historic districts, and specifically the
19 application sought three items. Two of the
20 items were approved by the commission. The
21 third item was denied.
22 The applicant is appealing merely that
23 third item, which was the denial. What he was
24 seeking was to replace the existing front porch
25 on a structure in the Riverside/Avondale
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1 historic district with a larger, more intense
2 type of architecture.
3 The Historic Preservation Commission denied
4 that request. And, as I mentioned, that's the
5 sole item of the three that were initially
6 presented that's pending before this body.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent. Good
8 explanation. And we'll come back later for an
9 argument from you.
10 (Mr. Kelly exits the proceedings.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: We will start with our
12 appellant, and that would be -- I don't have a
13 card from someone. I have the card from
14 Ms. Mansfield, but I know she's not the
15 appellant.
16 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
17 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I can fill out one. I'm
18 sorry.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Fill out a blue card for us
20 later.
21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: And just give us your name
23 and address.
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Jason Rhodin, 5213
25 Sunderland Road.
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1 I'm the homeowner. When we approached this
2 property, it was a foreclosure. And after --
3 kind of starting the process with a contractor
4 and looking at the house and starting to do
5 drawings, I --
6 Well, what I first did was I went to COJ.
7 They kind of look at dates as far as what makes
8 it a contributing home, and the only thing that
9 I found was that 1936 was the cutoff for
10 Riverside, and I didn't find any other
11 information on that. So I kind of based my
12 plans with this contractor on that information,
13 though what I came to find out was that it's
14 actually 1946. This house was built in 1942.
15 But we really feel strongly that, you know,
16 adding this porch to this home is not only going
17 to increase the value of the home, but it's
18 going to make it a home that my family is going
19 to want to live in, you know, for many years to
20 come.
21 I grew up in Riverside and it's a big deal
22 for me and my family to come back to Riverside
23 and be able to, you know, find a home that we
24 really like. And we do want to keep a lot of
25 the historic, you know, features of the home.
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1 And that's why, you know, through this
2 process we've decided to -- from the addition,
3 we're taking brick off the back of the home and
4 we wanted to use that same brick in the front of
5 the -- you know, for the porch so that we're
6 kind of continuing the style or keeping that
7 original brick in this new structure.
8 You know, as this thing has progressed, I
9 kind of started doing research on masonry
10 vernacular homes and what those were and what
11 was the defining characteristic of that. I'll
12 try to keep it brief, but that's -- I couldn't
13 really find anything that said definitively this
14 is a defining characteristic of this home or of
15 a masonry vernacular home. There's many
16 different styles, and so I -- I followed this
17 appeal through because this is really important
18 to my family.
19 And that's the basis.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
21 MR. RHODIN: Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: And hang close because we'll
23 be calling on you later for a rebuttal.
24 Ms. Mansfield.
25 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 I'm Jennifer Mansfield, from 2043 College
3 Street, representing Riverside Avondale
4 Preservation.
5 Riverside Avondale Preservation worked with
6 the homeowner as he was completing his
7 application and also spoke before the JHPC in an
8 advisory capacity regarding the many proposed
9 alterations to the home.
10 The home is listed as a contributing
11 structure and, therefore, it is -- must comply
12 with the City of Jacksonville's design
13 regulations.
14 Even so, RAP acquiesced on several of the
15 issues and supported some of the changes such as
16 the rear addition, even though there was a loss
17 of historic fabric where the impact was less
18 visible from the street because, after all,
19 that's really what we want to preserve, those
20 parts that are visible and what you can see from
21 the street.
22 RAP's -- LUZ's review of this appeal of a
23 decision of the Jacksonville Historic
24 Preservation Commission is de novo, but that's
25 not to say, however, that LUZ can just decide if
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1 the proposed amendment looks good.
2 Rather, since LUZ is acting in a
3 quasi-judicial capacity, its role as an
4 appellate body requires it to measure this
5 applicant's application based upon the same
6 standards that the JHPC is required to use; that
7 is, the design regulations from the City of
8 Jacksonville for the Riverside Avondale historic
9 district. Indeed, to disregard the design
10 regulations would be an abuse of discretion.
11 The JHPC denied this application because it
12 found that the proposed new front porch does not
13 meet the City of Jacksonville's design
14 regulations, and now the applicant is asking LUZ
15 to take -- to look at the application anew,
16 compare it to the design regulations, and reach
17 a different interpretation from the -- from the
18 learned opinion of the JHPC.
19 So we urge LUZ to uphold the JHPC's
20 decision because the JHPC decision correctly
21 interprets the design regulations.
22 The proposed porch addition is what is
23 referred to as adding a conjectural feature to
24 the front facade. That is adding a feature that
25 never existed on the house before. Adding
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1 conjectural features is against the design
2 regulations and the Secretary of the Interior
3 Standards for additions. It highly alters the
4 look of the house from the street. And, in
5 fact, an addition on the front porch of this
6 house would dramatically change the entire style
7 of this house.
8 Preventing such dramatic changes to the
9 character of the house in the historic district
10 and thus the character of the district itself is
11 the reason why we have the design regulations in
12 place, and that's why RAP did not support the
13 addition of this front porch at the JHPC hearing
14 and we continue to not think that it is an
15 appropriate addition to this particular home.
16 Therefore, we urge LUZ to come to the same
17 conclusion of the JHPC and deny this appeal.
18 The construction proposed would take a
19 front stoop that merely covers the front door of
20 the house to protect from rain and such to an
21 entire front porch that attempts to convert it
22 to more of a craftsman-style house.
23 This house is, as the owner stated, from
24 1942. It is a rare example in our district of
25 this mid period between prewar housing, the
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1 styles, and the postwar housing that transition
2 into the ranch-style homes.
3 It's one of the few, along with its
4 neighbor, that was originally built with an
5 attached garage. The Riverside historic
6 district -- Riverside Avondale historic district
7 takes pride in the fact that it has an enormous
8 variety of architectural styles in the district,
9 and so the fact that it's from 1942 and brick we
10 do not think detracts from the style but
11 actually enhances its value to the district.
12 Thank you very much.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Mansfield.
14 I think Mr. Davis has a question for you.
15 MR. DAVIS: Thank you, ma'am.
16 I guess I just want to understand the
17 reasoning behind your request for denial, and
18 that would be more of a technical nature. I
19 don't want to put words in your mouth, but would
20 that be why you would deny this?
21 MS. MANSFIELD: No. It's actually from the
22 interpretation of the Secretary of Interior
23 Standards for rehabilitation, which is what our
24 ordinance adopted for the Riverside Avondale
25 historic district as well as the other historic
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1 districts.
2 The present house has and always has had a
3 stoop in the front of the house. It has never
4 had a full front porch. And, in fact, this
5 style of house, in general, would not have a
6 front porch, this style of house, a ranchero
7 style, and it generally does not come with a
8 front porch.
9 MR. DAVIS: Okay. I guess I was trying --
10 I was hoping that you were going to say it was a
11 technical reason. I mean, I'm trying to
12 understand.
13 So you don't think that this front porch
14 would -- it would actually detract from the
15 value?
16 MS. MANSFIELD: Well, I mean, it depends on
17 the eye of the beholder really. I mean --
18 MR. DAVIS: Okay.
19 MS. MANSFIELD: -- because some people say,
20 oh it's a porch. Even though it doesn't match
21 the house, I like having a porch. Other people
22 would drive by it and say, oh, that porch
23 doesn't fit on the house at all. Why the heck
24 did they do that?
25 MR. DAVIS: Okay. All right. Well, I
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1 appreciate you being here.
2 Thank you, ma'am.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost.
4 MR. JOOST: Thank you.
5 Through the Chair to Ms. Mansfield --
6 And, Mr. Davis, you're kind of on my same
7 line of thought.
8 Are there other houses in that area that
9 have porches?
10 MS. MANSFIELD: There are other houses in
11 the area that have porches but that are
12 different architectural styles. There's a house
13 immediately -- if you're looking at the front of
14 this house, there's another house mainly to the
15 right that is virtually identical to this house,
16 obviously built at the same time, that does not
17 have a front porch.
18 MR. JOOST: But are there other houses of
19 this type of -- of this type that have porches
20 within the Riverside preservation area?
21 MS. MANSFIELD: I wouldn't be able to tell
22 you off the top of my head. It's very rare for
23 this -- for this ranch style to have a front
24 porch.
25 MR. JOOST: Okay.
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1 MS. MANSFIELD: Whether there is
2 definitively, I just don't know.
3 MR. JOOST: To the -- I guess the
4 applicant, do you have -- Mr. Rhodin, do you
5 have an artist rendering of what the porch would
6 look like?
7 MR. RHODIN: Yes, I do. She has a smaller
8 version that I can give you.
9 MR. JOOST: And do you have any -- do you
10 have any pictures of existing houses in the area
11 that would have porches?
12 MR. REINGOLD: Can you approach the podium,
13 sir?
14 MR. JOOST: What Mr. Davis was getting at
15 is -- is there an aesthetic degradation, if you
16 will, of the neighborhood if you build a porch
17 on this house? You know, if there are other
18 houses in the neighborhood.
19 MR. RHODIN: No. There are many, many
20 houses in the neighborhood that have porches of
21 that style.
22 MR. JOOST: Do you have pictures, by any
23 chance?
24 MR. RHODIN: I mean, I may have taken one
25 on my phone, but I don't know if -- I mean, if
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1 that would suit anybody, but there are -- I
2 mean, there are -- you know, within, you know,
3 that area, there are tons of houses with
4 porches, especially with porches of that style,
5 of that tapered column style, which is the
6 reason we decided to go with that style is
7 because it did match with our idea of what a
8 porch should look like in that area.
9 MR. JOOST: I guess -- boy, it sure would
10 help me if you had pictures of similar houses in
11 the neighborhood --
12 MR. RHODIN: Okay.
13 MR. JOOST: -- you know, because I guess I
14 got to go on with the evidence before me right
15 now.
16 What I'm trying to -- you know, for me, I'm
17 trying to weigh whether there's -- you know, an
18 aesthetic degradation of the neighborhood by
19 allowing you to build this porch.
20 MR. RHODIN: I mean, quite honestly, in
21 that -- on my street and my direct neighbor,
22 there is -- like she stated, there is a house
23 that's right next to it that is a similar
24 style. My neighbor on the other side is a JEA
25 substation, so anything that -- anything that
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1 we're doing to this home is going to make the
2 street look nicer. I mean, we're not building,
3 you know, some neo modern porch onto the front
4 of this home. We're trying to match roof lines
5 and keep everything consistent with, you know,
6 the look of the home.
7 And, like I said, bringing the brick from
8 the back of the house to match that I think is,
9 you know, well within, you know, keeping with
10 styles.
11 I'm trying to find if I have any pictures.
12 I'm sorry. I know I took some.
13 MR. JOOST: Well, they say a picture is
14 worth a thousand words.
15 MR. RHODIN: I know.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: We have several people in
17 the queue.
18 MR. RHODIN: I apologize.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no, no. I'm just saying
20 that you have time if you want to keep looking.
21 MR. RHODIN: Okay.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones is next.
23 MR. RHODIN: I mean, I don't have
24 anything. I just looked through my phone
25 pictures and I don't.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
2 MR. JONES: Through the Chair to
3 Mr. Rhodin.
4 MR. RHODIN: Yes.
5 MR. JONES: I thought you said the house
6 originally had a porch.
7 MR. RHODIN: No. Originally it does have a
8 stoop. And when we approached this project, I
9 had a draftsman that I had to let go because he
10 didn't seem to really know what he was talking
11 about when we started getting into structural
12 issues. The house has a lot of settling.
13 So I hired another structural engineer that
14 could do drawings as well. And through his
15 findings, he's come to find that the house is
16 structurally unsound in the back of the home, so
17 we're doing quite a bit to rehab this home to
18 keep as much of the -- you know, the original
19 value to this home as possible.
20 Like I said, this is a home that my family
21 wants to -- I mean, I have a daughter and I have
22 another child on the way. This is where we want
23 to raise our children. This is the neighborhood
24 I grew up in, so it's really important to me as
25 a person and as a homeowner who is investing a
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1 lot of money to be able to, you know, add value
2 to this home.
3 MR. JONES: Were you aware that the area is
4 a historic district?
5 MR. RHODIN: Yes.
6 MR. JONES: Okay.
7 MR. RHODIN: Yes. And, like I said, when I
8 initially started this path, my understanding
9 was that our home wasn't contributing because it
10 fell outside of 1936, which was obviously a
11 mistake on my part. But that was what I read on
12 the COJ.net, and that's my own source of
13 information for the City.
14 You know, being a layperson and not knowing
15 the ins and outs of, you know, LUZ and
16 everything that I'm now very familiar with
17 through this process, being through, you know,
18 the historic commission and all these different
19 places that I never knew actually existed, so
20 it's been quite the education on my part.
21 MR. JONES: Through the chair to
22 Mr. McEachin.
23 Joel, what is the cutoff date for
24 contributing structures?
25 MR. McEACHIN: I think where the 1936 date
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1 came from was when the National Register
2 district probably was done for Riverside. I
3 don't think it's for this area. I think 1936
4 was the date in which they cut off what they
5 call the period of significance.
6 I think in the case of the Riverside
7 Avondale historic district, when they
8 established it by ordinance, it was established
9 in 1946.
10 MR. JONES: So anything prior to '46 is
11 considered contributing?
12 MR. McEACHIN: Well, if it has integrity.
13 And the reason they use the date '46 was
14 because that was 50 years from the date the
15 district was set up, which was -- approved,
16 which was 1996 at the time it was being
17 considered.
18 MR. JONES: So had the district been set up
19 earlier, then -- I mean, later, then it wouldn't
20 necessarily be contributing?
21 MR. McEACHIN: I'm sorry. Say it again.
22 MR. JONES: If the historic district had
23 been set up, say, in 1980, then it wouldn't be
24 considered a contributing structure?
25 MR. McEACHIN: That is correct.
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1 For example, Springfield's contributing
2 period ends much earlier than that.
3 MR. JONES: Yeah. Springfield was the
4 first one?
5 MR. McEACHIN: Yes.
6 MR. JONES: Okay. What was the vote in the
7 Historic Preservation Commission?
8 MR. McEACHIN: Regarding this application?
9 MR. JONES: Yes.
10 MR. McEACHIN: I'm not sure if -- Jason, if
11 you have that information or not. I think that
12 it was unanimous in our decision making.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones, we've kind of
14 stepped out of our order here.
15 MR. JONES: All right.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: We were asking questions of
17 Ms. Mansfield.
18 But, Mr. Teal, we wanted to let him kind of
19 do a presentation. Can we go to Mr. Teal first
20 and then we'll take up questions and kind of go
21 into debate.
22 Mr. Teal, could you summarize what happened
23 the other day and the arguments that were
24 presented?
25 MR. TEAL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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1 Just, again, as I mentioned, the applicant
2 originally sought three things with this
3 application. He sought permission to build an
4 addition onto the house, brand-new construction
5 that he was going to increase his square footage
6 on. He wanted to reopen the garage which had
7 been enclosed at some point in the past. And,
8 as you know, he wanted to construct a new porch.
9 Again, the Historic Preservation Commission
10 granted them the ability to build their new
11 addition and also to grant the proposed work on
12 the garage but denied the new front porch.
13 Now, the basis of the commission's decision
14 was that the original appearance of the front of
15 the house included the nondescript entryway, the
16 stoop that you see, and what was processed was a
17 significant alteration from the original
18 historic appearance of the structure.
19 Now, keep in mind that the purpose of the
20 citizens in that area voting to enact a historic
21 district was to preserve the historic character
22 and the historic fabric of the district in which
23 they live. It was done to grant comfort to the
24 residents that are out there to -- that they
25 would know, you know, exactly what is or wasn't
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1 going to be allowed to be constructed, or, more
2 importantly, that they would have the ability to
3 rely on the ability -- the process, I guess, to
4 regulate that.
5 It's important for this body to know that
6 prior to purchasing this property, Mr. Rhodin
7 requested from the Historic Preservation
8 Commission an informal opinion of
9 appropriateness. He presented this application
10 basically to the Historic Preservation
11 Commission to get some feedback prior to
12 purchasing it as to whether or not he would be
13 allowed to go forward or kind of the informal
14 opinion of the commission going forward as to
15 whether or not it would be okay, and so he was
16 alerted to the fact that the staff was opposed
17 to the front porch. He was alerted to the fact
18 that the neighborhood organization had several
19 documented concerns with the front porch, and he
20 chose to go forward with the purchase.
21 He closed on the property shortly after the
22 letter on the opinion of appropriateness was
23 issued, so he knew -- he knew what he was
24 buying. He stated that he knew that the house
25 was in the historic district. He stated that he
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1 grew up in Riverside. He's familiar with the
2 other historic properties. He bought it knowing
3 what it was.
4 He also bought it knowing the concerns that
5 the regulatory agency, if you will, had with
6 regard to his proposed plans, that there was a
7 problem with the proposed new porch.
8 Now, the issues regarding whether or not
9 the porch enhances or detracts from the property
10 value really aren't -- they're not considered
11 criteria that the commission can consider.
12 They're not in Chapter 307 as to whether or not
13 this is going to increase or decrease the
14 property value.
15 And the example I give is, if you've got a
16 Van Gogh on the wall and you want to make a
17 change to that Van Gogh because it's similar to
18 other paintings hanging along the wall, what
19 you're doing is you are altering that Van Gogh.
20 Now, I'm not trying to say that this house
21 is a Van Gogh, obviously. But, you know -- but
22 the point is that it is what it is. I mean, you
23 don't -- its significance is because of its
24 historic value, and that was really the point of
25 the Historic Preservation Commission with regard
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1 to this property is that because this porch was
2 such a large alteration to the originally
3 designed and constructed house, that it simply
4 did not meet the criteria that Chapter 307
5 specifies for purposes of these types of
6 applications.
7 That's really what it boils down to, is
8 that they're not really focusing on whether it
9 looks good, whether it doesn't. What they're
10 focusing on is how much does it detract from the
11 originally-constructed structure.
12 And that's their charge under Chapter 307
13 is to -- is to make that determination.
14 So thank you very much.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, I have Mr. Redman for
16 questions.
17 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 The owner of the property, could you come
19 back up?
20 MR. RHODIN: Yes, sir.
21 (Mr. Rhodin approaches the podium.)
22 MR. REDMAN: You say that you went to the
23 trouble of bringing bricks from the back of the
24 house to the front of the house to construct
25 this in a manner that it would resemble other
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1 houses in this historic district and that it
2 would not change the appearance of the structure
3 of the house to any measure effect?
4 MR. RHODIN: Well, I mean, it's -- it is a
5 different -- it's a porch, so it's going to look
6 a little different than it did originally, but
7 it's going to have the same brick from the back
8 of the house. And to kind of work off of what
9 he was saying, if I buy a Van Gogh, I can paint
10 on it if I want to.
11 You know, we're not trying to, you know,
12 build something that's ostentatious for --
13 MR. REDMAN: I saw pictures of the -- you
14 know, the one -- a picture without the porch and
15 a picture with the porch. It definitely looks
16 better with the porch. And I think that, you
17 know, with other homes in the historic district
18 that do have porches, front porches, I think
19 that you're trying to stay within a realm of
20 other homes in the district.
21 And, you know, with two children and a
22 child and another one on the way with just a
23 stoop at the front door I think would be a
24 dangerous situation, for one thing.
25 It's not a screened in porch, is it?
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1 MR. RHODIN: No.
2 MR. REDMAN: So it -- you know, it -- the
3 style of the porch, to me, fits a historic type
4 porch, so I think it looks good.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis.
6 MR. DAVIS: I'd like to ask a question and
7 then make a motion, if I could. Is that okay?
8 Can I get to that?
9 I mean, I'll just ask the question, but I'd
10 like to get the thing moving forward if we
11 could.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: We can't make a motion
13 within the public hearing.
14 MR. DAVIS: I'll ask him a question if you
15 close the public hearing.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll close the
17 public hearing.
18 Mr. Davis.
19 MR. DAVIS: Sir, why did you choose to save
20 the brick so you could move it to the front?
21 MR. RHODIN: Well, for one thing, it's hard
22 to find brick that matches. It's not painted
23 brick, so it's going to be hard to find new
24 brick that's going to match the rest of the
25 house.
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1 MR. DAVIS: So you would say you were
2 trying to maintain the character?
3 MR. RHODIN: Yes.
4 MR. DAVIS: Why would you choose the
5 craftsman style instead of a -- like the white
6 columns going all the way up? What would be the
7 reason you would do that?
8 MR. RHODIN: You know, I guess for my wife
9 and I through many discussions about what our
10 house -- you know, our dream house would look
11 like. That's kind of what we saw when we saw
12 this house, was that it would look like it
13 belonged.
14 MR. DAVIS: Have you seen other craftsman
15 styles houses in the Riverside Avondale
16 preservation?
17 MR. RHODIN: Yes.
18 MR. DAVIS: Okay.
19 With that being said, along the lines with
20 what Mr. Redman mentioned, I believe that this
21 style matches just fine in the Riverside
22 Avondale preservation area. I've seen
23 craftsman-style houses all around the area, and
24 I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if the original
25 builder had enough money, he would have built
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1 the exact same porch. I mean, I think it fits
2 right in.
3 So, with that, I'd like to move the
4 amendment to grant the appeal.
5 MR. JOOST: Second.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We have a motion
7 to amend to grant the appeal.
8 All in favor of the amendment to grant the
9 appeal signify by saying aye.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
12 I need someone to move to grant, right?
13 MR. REINGOLD: Yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
15 MR. DAVIS: Move the bill.
16 MR. BROWN: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second to grant
18 the appeal.
19 Please open the ballot.
20 (Committee ballot opened.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
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1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
4 the vote.
5 (Committee ballot closed.)
6 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
8 amended and grant -- to grant the appeal.
9 MR. RHODIN: Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Item 42, which Ms. Johnston
11 has been patiently waiting for -- and she's not
12 even going to need to come up here and speak.
13 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: 2009-856, we have a motion
15 and --
16 Get a second?
17 MR. DAVIS: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: -- second to --
19 Please open the ballot.
20 (Committee ballot opened.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
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1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
4 the vote.
5 (Committee ballot closed.)
6 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nay.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
8 approved 2009-856.
9 Just a few more, folks.
10 Item 2009-857 is by itself.
11 We will open the public hearing. Seeing no
12 speakers, we will continue that public hearing
13 to January 5th, take no further action.
14 2009-858. We'll open the public hearing.
15 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue the
16 public hearing to January 5th, take no further
17 action.
18 2009-864. We're deferring that item.
19 And 2009-872, -888, -889, and -890 are all
20 second and rereferred.
21 Did I miss anything, anyone?
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: We are done.
24 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
25 6:50 p.m.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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3 STATE OF FLORIDA:
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
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6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 22nd day of November, 2009.
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Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203