1 CITY OF JACKSONVILLE
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, October 6,
7 2009, commencing at 5:08 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 RAY HOLT, Chair.
WARREN JONES, Vice Chair.
14 REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
DANIEL DAVIS, Committee Member.
15 JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
STEPHEN JOOST, Committee Member.
16 DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
GLORIOUS JOHNSON, City Council Member.
19 JOHN CRESCIMBENI, City Council Member.
BILL BISHOP, City Council Member.
20 JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
21 KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
22
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
23 JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.
24 - - -
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 October 6, 2009 5:08 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, folks.
5 All right. I'll call us to order here.
6 Let's go ahead and go around the horn. There's
7 some new folks here tonight that may not know
8 everybody.
9 Can we introduce ourselves, starting with
10 Mr. Crofts.
11 MR. CROFTS: My name is John Crofts,
12 representing the Planning and Development
13 Department.
14 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
15 Development.
16 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
17 Development.
18 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford, Planning and
19 Development.
20 MS. ELLER: Shannon Eller, General
21 Counsel's Office.
22 MS. JOHNSON: Councilwoman Glorious
23 Johnson.
24 MR. DAVIS: Daniel Davis, concerned
25 citizen.
Diane M.
Tropia,
3
1 MR. BROWN: Reginald Brown, District 10.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know why we do
3 this. We all have name tags, name plates.
4 Ray Holt, District 11.
5 MR. JONES: Warren Jones, District 9.
6 MR. JOOST: Stephen Joost, Group 3.
7 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4.
8 MR. CRESCIMBENI: John Crescimbeni,
9 at-large, Group 2.
10 MR. BISHOP: Bill Bishop, interested
11 bystander.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I like that.
13 Well, we've got an interesting agenda
14 tonight. I think most of the folks here are
15 probably here for the two bills regarding bus
16 shelters and signs and -- but I want to go ahead
17 and handle some of the other bills first to get
18 some of these folks out of here that don't want
19 to hang out for the whole sign issue, and also
20 give Councilmember Corrigan a chance to get
21 here. He's currently being honored by Florida
22 State College of
23 hard work over there. I don't know. We'll let
24 him tell us later.
25 All right. I promised Ms. Johnson that she
Diane M.
Tropia,
4
1 could go first.
2 What is that bill that you're here on, your
3 three bills?
4 MS. JOHNSON: It's on page 4, item 10.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Everybody, let's go to
6 page 4.
7 MS. JOHNSON: 10, 11, and 12.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: And we'll start with
9 item 10, 2009-515.
10 I need a move --
11 MR. JOOST: Move to withdraw.
12 MR. REDMAN: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I've got a motion and second
14 to withdraw.
15 Ms. Johnson, did you want to speak on
16 that?
17 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 This is in reference to all of the bills
19 that I'm asking to be withdrawn. It is -515,
20 -516, and -517. And I wanted to make this
21 public so that the people can understand why I
22 am withdrawing these three bills.
23 I know everybody in here has heard it. So
24 be patient, my colleagues.
25 On July 28, 2009, the above-listed
Diane M. Tropia,
5
1 ordinances was introduced to repeal the fees
2 imposed two years ago because of the hardship
3 that had -- they had created for a number of our
4 citizens who are already financially burdened to
5 the degree that day-to-day survival is a
6 struggle.
7 The fees imposed and the matter in which
8 they were imposed is, in fact, regressive
9 taxation with one franchise fee being collected
10 by JEA that has no connection to the services
11 they provide. The reality is that JEA has just
12 become the mechanism through which to collect
13 additional funding tagged as a franchise fee.
14 The need to implement the fees in the first
15 place, which was offered as a budget balancing
16 tool, could have been both avoided and addressed
17 by the administration and previous -- not you
18 all -- previous members, council members had
19 done their due diligence.
20 First, when the issue of property rollbacks
21 was initially entertained, I said we, as a
22 council, simply vote to opt out of the rollback,
23 which was the Senate mandate, which was our
24 legal right to do so.
25 Had we done that, property taxes would have
Diane M.
Tropia,
6
1 remained at the 9.2 mill mark. The council did
2 not entertain that possibility and, instead,
3 simply accepted the fees, which would ultimately
4 land on the backs of our citizens.
5 The fee imposed for sewer and waste water
6 was an opportunistic move to solve a very real
7 problem that had been left unaddressed for
8 decades by City officials. Had it been
9 addressed ten years ago, a revenue source could
10 have been identified and utilized and the
11 problems we are now trying to address with waste
12 water would not have reached the epic proportion
13 we ended up being faced with.
14 It had been my hope that a complete budget
15 review would have identified enough waste to
16 result in the cutbacks needed to allow the
17 burden of the fees to be lifted, and at the same
18 time, finding an appropriate revenue source for
19 sewer and water and waste water.
20 The Finance Committee was unable to come up
21 with the necessary cuts, and some of those
22 identified were put back into the budget. We
23 then find ourselves in the position of creating
24 a public uproar when the property tax rate was
25 raised to a level it would have remained at the
Diane M.
Tropia,
7
1 past two years had we done what we should --
2 should have, and opted out in the first place.
3 I am not for a minute satisfied that there
4 is no waste yet to be cut from the budget or
5 additional revenue sources to be identified, but
6 any cuts and a new revenue source will now have
7 to wait and -- at the next budgeting session.
8 Clearly the fees cannot be repealed at this
9 juncture. This does not mean this issue should
10 not again be revisited or that I do not intend
11 to do so. I do and I will return.
12 At this point, however, we have to address
13 the yearly billing system that was created to
14 collect these fees in a single amount. While
15 many may think the single billing of $120 is not
16 problematic, the reality is that it presents a
17 very real problem and difficulty to too many
18 people receiving it. That is proved by the
19 millions yet to be collected and is still owed
20 from previous billing of the fees.
21 We have not only created a substantial cost
22 through mailing and processing the billing for
23 fees, but we have created a system that does not
24 allow the people to pay in increments and make
25 partial payments, which for some is what must
Diane M. Tropia,
8
1 happen.
2 To make matters worse, we are now
3 discussing the use of collection agencies, an
4 additional sizable expense, and a move that --
5 which will put further stress on struggling
6 families through the administration's
7 collections effort. This I do not and will not
8 support.
9 It is absurd that this City has been
10 returning partial payments to citizens saying
11 they cannot process them and at the same time
12 are entertaining ways through which to pressure
13 their payment. For example, liens on citizens'
14 homes.
15 Certainly some mechanism can be put in
16 place to tweak the billing system to accept
17 partial payments. With an IT department which
18 receives millions from the City, they should be
19 tasked to create a system that will allow a
20 flexible payment system.
21 While these fees remain in force, we have
22 both the obligation and the moral responsibility
23 to work with the citizens we represent in a
24 manner that allows them to deal with the fee
25 payments as painless as possible by including
Diane M.
Tropia,
9
1 them in some other type of billing, perhaps
2 monthly, so that the City can collect and the
3 citizens can afford to pay.
4 That is my concern at this point in time.
5 The issue of fees and, as I call them,
6 taxes repeal will remain for another place and
7 time. These ordinances shall return in
8 preparation for the next budget period.
9 And I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing
10 me to explain why I am withdrawing these three
11 fees [sic].
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Johnson, for
14 your attendance tonight.
15 I have a motion and second on the
16 withdrawal.
17 Please open the ballot.
18 (Committee ballot opened.)
19 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
Diane M.
Tropia,
10
1 the vote.
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
5 withdrawn -515.
6 2009-516.
7 MR. JOOST: Move to withdraw.
8 MR. JONES: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second
10 to withdraw -516.
11 Please open the ballot.
12 (Committee ballot opened.)
13 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
20 the vote.
21 (Committee ballot closed.)
22 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
24 withdrawn 2009-516.
25 MR. JOOST: Move to withdraw -517.
Diane M.
Tropia,
11
1 MR. JONES: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on -517.
3 Please open the ballot.
4 (Committee ballot opened.)
5 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
12 the vote.
13 (Committee ballot closed.)
14 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
16 withdrawn -517.
17 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Johnson.
19 Just a moment. Let me get my --
20 Steve, I'm having problems with my queue up
21 here. Hopefully nobody tried to speak because I
22 don't have a queue.
23 All right. Let's go back to page 2. All
24 those items on page 2 are deferred.
25 Item number 4, top of page 3, 2009-252. We
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 will open the public hearing.
2 We have Mr. Charles Mann.
3 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
4 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, members of the
5 committee, Charles Mann,
6 representing the landowner on this.
7 MR. JOOST: Questions only?
8 MR. MANN: Sir?
9 MR. JOOST: Questions only?
10 MR. MANN: Questions only.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Anybody have
12 questions for Mr. Mann? Raise your hand if you
13 do because I don't have a queue.
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: There we go. All right.
16 Thank you, Mr. Mann.
17 Seeing no questions, we'll close that
18 public hearing.
19 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
20 MR. JONES: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
22 on the amendment.
23 All in favor of the amendment signify by
24 saying aye.
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
2 passed the amendment.
3 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
4 MR. JONES: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second
6 on the bill as amended.
7 Please open the ballot.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
16 the vote.
17 (Committee ballot closed.)
18 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
20 passed 2009-252.
21 MR. MANN: Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Item number 5, 2009-350, we
23 will open the public hearing and continue that
24 public hearing, take no further action.
25 We're going to skip numbers 6 and 7 for
Diane M.
Tropia,
14
1 right now.
2 Go on to page 4, please. Item number 8,
3 2009-429. We'll open the public hearing.
4 No speakers, we'll take no further action
5 tonight.
6 Item number 4 is deferred.
7 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. -444 is
9 deferred.
10 We have just handled 10, 11, and 12.
11 Item number 13, 2009-526. We will open the
12 public hearing.
13 Continue that to 11/17 and take no further
14 action.
15 Item number 14, top of page 6, 2009-527.
16 We will open the public hearing.
17 Seeing no speakers, we will close the
18 public hearing.
19 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
20 MR. JONES: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
22 on the sub.
23 All in favor of the sub signify by saying
24 aye.
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: We've passed the sub.
2 MR. DAVIS: Move to rerefer.
3 MR. JOOST: Second.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second
5 to rerefer to LUZ as substituted.
6 Please open the ballot.
7 (Committee ballot opened.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
15 the vote.
16 (Committee ballot closed.)
17 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
19 rereferred as substituted.
20 Let's see.
21 MR. JOOST: -529, move to withdraw.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion --
23 MR. JONES: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: -- and second to withdraw
25 item 15.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
16
1 Please open the ballot.
2 (Committee ballot opened.)
3 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
10 the vote.
11 (Committee ballot closed.)
12 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
14 withdrawn -529.
15 Item 16 is deferred.
16 Item 17, -548, we'll open the public
17 hearing.
18 No speakers. We will take no further
19 action on that tonight.
20 Item 18, -627, we will open the public
21 hearing.
22 We have Mr. Fred De Witt.
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you here for questions
25 only, sir?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, I am.
2 Fred De Witt, 5658 Colcord Avenue.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for coming.
4 I don't see anybody needing to ask you a
5 question, so we will --
6 We are going to continue that public
7 hearing and -- is that right, Ms. Eller?
8 MR. CROFTS: We are going to close the
9 public hearing and then move the substitute and
10 move to rerefer.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Sorry. I've got
12 a bad copy here.
13 So we will close the public hearing.
14 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
15 MR. JONES: Second.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
17 on the sub.
18 All in favor of the sub, please say aye.
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: The sub passes
21 MR. JOOST: Move to rerefer as substituted.
22 MR. DAVIS: Second.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second to
24 rerefer as substituted.
25 Please open the ballot.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 (Committee ballot opened.)
2 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
9 the vote.
10 (Committee ballot closed.)
11 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
13 subbed and rereferred 2009-627.
14 All right. Items 19 and 20, we will open
15 the public hearing.
16 Seeing no speakers, we will continue those
17 public hearings till 11/17.
18 Items 21 and 22 are together. We will open
19 the public hearing on those.
20 Seeing no speakers, we will continue those
21 public hearings until 11/17.
22 Items 23 and 24. We will open the public
23 hearings.
24 Seeing no speakers, we will continue the
25 public hearings till 11/17.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Items 25 and 26, we will open the public
2 hearing.
3 I have Jason Gabriel.
4 (Mr. Gabriel member approaches the podium.)
5 MR. GABRIEL: Good evening.
6 Jason Gabriel, 6 East Bay Street,
7 Suite 500, here on behalf of the applicant.
8 Just available for questions.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
10 Do we have any questions for Mr. Gabriel?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 (Dr. Gaffney enters the proceedings.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none, we
14 will close that public hearing.
15 Do I have a motion?
16 MR. JOOST: Move -661.
17 MR. JONES: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: And second on -661.
19 Please open the ballot.
20 (Committee ballot opened.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
4 the vote.
5 (Committee ballot closed.)
6 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
8 approved -661.
9 -662.
10 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
11 MR. JONES: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
13 amendment for --
14 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: We did them together.
16 Motion and second on the amendment.
17 All in favor of the amendment signify by
18 saying aye.
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any opposed?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we've passed
23 the amendment.
24 MR. JONES: Move the bill as amended.
25 MR. JOOST: Second.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on the
2 bill.
3 MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chair.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis needs to speak.
5 MR. DAVIS: I'd just like to declare
6 ex-parte communication with the applicant.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: All righty. Thank you,
8 Mr. Davis.
9 Do we have a motion and second on that?
10 MR. JOOST: Yes.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Please open the
12 ballot.
13 (Committee ballot opened.)
14 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
18 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
22 the vote.
23 (Committee ballot closed.)
24 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 approved item 26, 2009-662.
2 Item 27, 2009-663, and -664. We will open
3 those public hearings.
4 And we have Mr. Dennis Lavery.
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: How you doing?
7 Dennis Lavery, 6607 Old Kings Road.
8 I'm here because I'm like a puppet. You
9 have -- you send me a letter because it's public
10 comments, 350 feet from this zoning. You tell
11 me to go at one o'clock to the eighth floor on
12 September 24th. I go up to the eighth floor,
13 sit there for a half hour. I have to leave work
14 early and it's the wrong floor.
15 I go to the desk. It's the first floor.
16 So I go down there, make a little stink. And
17 it's deferred to 11/7. So I'm sitting there and
18 then like, oh, it's a big joke. But I've got to
19 leave work, which you-all get paid for. I
20 don't.
21 But I'm courteous and I'm here again.
22 Five o'clock I was supposed to be here. It's
23 deferred again till 11/7.
24 Why can't you send me a letter when you
25 knew it last week that I don't have to be here
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 today and leave work again early to be here at
2 5 o'clock?
3 Just because this guy is wishy-washy,
4 backhands monies, or whatever is going on, why
5 can't we be informed, the neighbors that is
6 going to affect this? But he can go talk to
7 people. And the Planning and Zoning and
8 everybody else know about it before the citizens
9 that live right next to the area, that's bull.
10 Why can't we get informed like he does?
11 He's got it and then he says a snotty remark
12 when I walk by him? I wish I knew what he
13 said. This is bull. This has got to be
14 rezoned. Why can we be right now knowing what's
15 going on? Every time it's getting pushed back
16 and pushed back.
17 I'm not a puppet. I pay taxes. I want to
18 know what's going on. You put a road right
19 through my yard on one side of me. Now you want
20 to put whatever. And nobody is coming around
21 and telling us.
22 The grass grows high. I got to call the
23 City because of the branches and everything all
24 over my fence and I can't do nothing about it?
25 What about my rights? This ain't right, man.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 This is not right.
2 -663 bill is what I'm talking about.
3 What's this one about -664 now too? I'm going
4 to have to come back up when you pull that one
5 because I --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: They're companions, so we've
7 opened the public hearing for both. So go ahead
8 and say what you want to say there.
9 MR. LAVERY: Then what's the deal with
10 that? One is -663, one is -664. Nobody has
11 explained it to me what that's about. You know,
12 this guy just wants to build whatever and the
13 neighbors don't want it. I don't want it. You
14 put a road there. I have a road on the side of
15 me.
16 Nobody is coming around to the community.
17 It's just all wishy-washy and that's bull.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
19 Seeing no further speakers, we will
20 continue that public hearing till 11/17 and take
21 no further action.
22 All right. Top of page 10, items 29 and
23 30.
24 We will open the public hearing.
25 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mann, for questions
2 only?
3 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, Charles Mann, 165
4 Arlington Road, representing the landowner.
5 I'm here for questions only. I do need to
6 place one condition on this application when you
7 get through.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's see.
9 Well, we will close that public hearing.
10 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll move -665.
12 MR. JONES: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
14 on -665.
15 Seeing no speakers, please open the
16 ballot.
17 (Committee ballot opened.)
18 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
22 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 the vote.
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
5 approved -665.
6 -666.
7 Mr. Davis, did you need to speak?
8 MR. DAVIS: No.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Move the amendment.
10 MR. JONES: Move the amendment.
11 MR. JOOST: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
13 on the amendment.
14 Mr. Crofts, could you give us the amendment
15 and see if Mr. Mann is okay with all that?
16 MR. CROFTS: I can read it in detail or I
17 can tell you in summarization that there are
18 seven conditions reflected in a letter to the
19 council president, September 24th.
20 The one change that I think will relate to
21 Mr. Mann's issue is that the -- the site plan,
22 the revised site plan for this particular
23 project is now dated October 5th, 2009.
24 And that would be the essence of my report
25 at this point, unless you want me to read
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 everything into the record.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
3 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, I don't think we
4 need to read everything. But for clarification
5 and working with the area councilman on this, in
6 addition to meeting the requirements of Part 12,
7 the landscape code, he additionally wanted palm
8 trees incorporated into the landscaping.
9 They're shown on the site plan that was
10 originally submitted. I don't believe they're
11 shown on the second one. And those would be six
12 cabbage palms planted along Dunn Avenue.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And you're okay with
14 all those conditions?
15 MR. MANN: Yes, sir, we are.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
17 Mr. Mann.
18 We have a motion and second on the
19 amendment.
20 All in favor of the amendment, please
21 signify by saying aye.
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Any opposed?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: You have approved the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 amendment.
2 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
3 MR. DAVIS: Second.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
5 bill as amended.
6 Please open the ballot.
7 (Committee ballot opened.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
12 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
16 the vote.
17 (Committee ballot closed.)
18 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
19 MR. MANN: Committee, thank you very much.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
21 approved -666 with palm trees, cabbage palms.
22 Item 31, 2009-667 and -668. We will open
23 those public hearings.
24 Seeing no speakers, we will take no further
25 action on that tonight. 11/17 will be the next
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
29
1 action.
2 2009-669 and -670. We will open that
3 public hearing.
4 We have Ms. Durden.
5 (Ms. Durden approaches the podium.)
6 MS. DURDEN: I started to hesitate back
7 there. I was like, he is going to call my name,
8 I think.
9 For the record, I'm Brenna Durden, Lewis,
10 Longman & Walker, 245 Riverside Avenue,
11 Suite 150, Jacksonville.
12 I'm here on behalf of the applicant,
13 Swisher International.
14 If there are any questions, I'm here to
15 answer those.
16 Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Seeing no
18 questions -- thank you, Ms. Durden, for coming
19 down -- we will close that public hearing.
20 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
21 MR. DAVIS: Second.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
23 on -669.
24 Please open the ballot.
25 (Committee ballot opened.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
5 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
9 the vote.
10 (Committee ballot closed.)
11 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
13 approved -669.
14 -670, we have an amendment.
15 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
16 MR. JONES: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
18 on the amendment on -670.
19 All in favor signify by saying aye.
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
22 approved the amendment.
23 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
24 MR. DAVIS: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 on the bill as amended.
2 Please open the ballot.
3 (Committee ballot opened.)
4 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
8 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
12 the vote.
13 (Committee ballot closed.)
14 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
16 approved 2009-670.
17 Thank you, Ms. Durden.
18 Item 35, 2009-695. We will open that
19 public hearing.
20 Mr. Mann.
21 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
22 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, Charles Mann, 165
23 Arlington Road, representing the landowner.
24 For questions only.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 And by the way, we opened -695 and -696.
2 I'm sorry.
3 MR. MANN: No, sir, Mr. Chairman.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. -695.
5 No speakers. We will close the public
6 hearing.
7 We have an amendment.
8 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
9 MR. JONES: Second.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
11 amendment.
12 All in favor signify by saying aye.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
15 approved the amendment.
16 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
17 MR. JONES: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
19 bill as amended.
20 Please open the ballot.
21 (Committee ballot opened.)
22 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
5 the vote.
6 (Committee ballot closed.)
7 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
9 approved -695.
10 Thank you, Mr. Mann.
11 Are you also on -696?
12 MR. MANN: I'm through. Thank you very
13 much.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: 2009-696. We will open the
15 public hearing.
16 Ms. Johnston.
17 (Ms. Johnston approaches the podium.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: How are you this evening?
19 MS. JOHNSTON: I'm doing well. Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: How's the baby?
21 MS. JOHNSTON: She's doing very well.
22 She's teething. But other than that, she's
23 great.
24
25 on behalf of the applicant.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 I'm here to answer questions, and we are
2 agreeable to the conditions of the Planning
3 Department staff report.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no
5 speakers -- thank you, Ms. Johnston, for coming
6 down -- we'll close that public hearing.
7 We have an amendment.
8 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
9 MR. JONES: Second.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second
11 on the amendment.
12 Would you like Mr. Crofts to read it?
13 MS. JOHNSTON: As long as it's the same as
14 Planning Commission, then we are good.
15 MR. CROFTS: There are no changes, for the
16 record, since the Planning Commission. And,
17 again, there are four conditions, in summary,
18 and they are dated in correspondence to this
19 body -- council body dated September 24, 2009.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. Did you say they
21 are the same as Planning Commission?
22 MR. CROFTS: They are identical to the
23 Planning Commission conditions, and there are
24 four of them. And they're summarized in a
25 letter dated September 24, 2009, to the City
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Council.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
3 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
4 MS. BROWN: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: We haven't voted on the
6 amendment yet.
7 MR. JOOST: Sorry.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on. Getting a little
9 ahead of ourselves.
10 All in favor of the amendment signify by
11 saying aye.
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
14 approved the amendment.
15 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
16 MR. JONES: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
18 bill as amended.
19 Please open the ballot.
20 (Committee ballot opened.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
4 the vote.
5 (Committee ballot closed.)
6 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
8 approved -696.
9 MS. JOHNSTON: Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Top of page 12,
11 item 37, 2009-729, has been deferred.
12 -732, we will open the public hearing.
13 Mr. Harden.
14 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
15 MR. HARDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 Paul Harden, 501 Riverside Avenue.
17 I represent AFI Associates, who is the
18 developer of this property.
19 I'll be happy to answer any questions.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Seeing no questions,
21 we will close that public hearing.
22 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
23 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
25 bill.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Please open the ballot.
2 (Committee ballot opened.)
3 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
7 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
11 the vote.
12 (Committee ballot closed.)
13 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
15 approved -732.
16 Let's see. 2009-750, -752, -753, all of
17 page 13, they are all second and referred.
18 Now let's go back to our big items of the
19 night.
20 We did our best to hold off until
21 Mr. Corrigan could be here, but let's go ahead
22 and get them started.
23 2009-401.
24 Mr. Crofts, could you start us off on this
25 whole process by kind of framing it? Tell us
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
38
1 maybe what happened over at Planning Commission.
2 MR. CROFTS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to
3 yield the floor to Mr. Kelly, who has invested a
4 great deal of time on this particular project.
5 And representing the Planning and Development
6 Department, he'll go into the staff's position
7 on this bill.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
9 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
10 Through the Chair to the members of the
11 committee, 2009-401 seeks to allow for the --
12 transit shelter advertising within the public
13 right-of-way. This has really been a kind of
14 polarizing issue with clear lines on both sides,
15 and the Department would like to kind of go over
16 how we arrived at our policy decision in support
17 of this change to the zoning code.
18 Specifically, there's three reasons that we
19 looked at this. One was consistency with
20 existing statutes. That includes the state
21 statute as well as our comprehensive plan.
22 Additionally, we evaluated this bill based
23 on the siting and design criteria for improving
24 the aesthetics to ensure compatibility with
25 adjacent zoning districts, as well as for
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 transit shelters in the downtown.
2 And third, we drew a correlation in how we
3 tied this legislation into the overall public
4 benefit.
5 I want to go into each of these a little
6 bit.
7 Specifically, the Florida Statutes,
8 Section 337.408, this states that transit
9 shelters, including advertising displayed on
10 benches or transit shelters, may be installed
11 within the right-of-way limits of any municipal
12 county or state road, provided that such benches
13 or transit shelters are for the comfort or
14 convenience of the general public or at designed
15 stops on official bus routes.
16 Additionally, goal 6 of our comprehensive
17 plan goes on to state that it is the intent to
18 promote the economic viability of transit. It
19 states that the economic efficiency of the
20 transit system shall be maximized while
21 providing for basic transportation needs of the
22 transit-dependent.
23 In order to promote the economic health of
24 Jacksonville, the transit system should operate
25 at a high level of efficiency and effectiveness,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 provide a reasonable level of service to its
2 patrons, and to maximize opportunities for
3 private sector investments in the development of
4 transit facilities and utilize all available
5 means of fund [sic].
6 Furthermore, a more specific objective in
7 the comp plan further states that the
8 transportation authority shall utilize, to the
9 extent allowed by law, existing and federal,
10 state and local funding mechanisms established
11 to support transit systems in the city.
12 There's been a lot of talk about whether or
13 not this is going to result in the overturning
14 of the City charter. The charter is very
15 specific. Article 23, Section 23.02, actually
16 defined what an off-site commercial billboard
17 is.
18 And in this bill -- in the charter, it
19 specifically states that any sign that
20 advertises or identifies a commercial use or
21 product that is not sold or produced on the
22 property on which the sign is located and which
23 is more than 25 square feet in size defines a
24 commercial off-site billboard. All the transit
25 shelter advertising signage is less than
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 25 square feet.
2 So, to summarize, the state statute allows
3 for the transit shelter advertising in the
4 right-of-way. The comprehensive plan requires
5 that the City look at all available funding
6 mechanisms to improve transit services for the
7 transit-dependent. The City charter defines
8 off-site commercial billboards and specifically
9 excludes signs that are less than 25 feet from
10 the definition.
11 Additionally, since the adoption of the
12 charter, there's been similar legislation with
13 sign overlays, specifically downtown, in
14 ordinance 2005-1380 that dealt with the existing
15 severability clause that's provided for in this
16 bill.
17 That severability clause has existed and
18 has not been challenged for four years. It
19 allowed for the off-site signage within the
20 sporting venues and the arenas and the ball
21 parks.
22 So, from a legal standpoint, the Department
23 is comfortable. We've relied on the Office of
24 General Counsel and their opinion. So we feel
25 very satisfied with that and with the laws and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 with the policies that we have, that this is --
2 this is a good thing.
3 The second issue specifically we looked at
4 this was siting and design criteria, and so we
5 looked at this and we initiated a review that
6 basically provided a locational criteria for the
7 transit shelters that's based on the surrounding
8 land use and zoning as to where a transit
9 shelter with internally-illuminated advertising
10 could be permitted by right, where it is
11 permissible, provided that it would comply with
12 specific performance standards, specifically a
13 200-foot setback from a single-family use, and
14 the fact that it would have to be identified on
15 the JTA bus corridor route map, and also where
16 it would be allowed only through the grant of a
17 sign waiver.
18 Sign waivers typically come through this
19 body for approval, so -- requiring an individual
20 public hearing to allow a transit shelter with
21 advertising in those situations should they
22 arise.
23 Additionally, the legislation very
24 specifically amended the downtown zoning overlay
25 with regards to the streetscape standards,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 again, for providing specific siting and design
2 criteria located for the transit shelters in the
3 downtown, and also provided a review for the
4 transit shelter locations and designs of those
5 transit shelters within the historic districts.
6 I believe there's a substitute that will be
7 before you, and I can speak to that, but that
8 can come later. I think Councilman Corrigan
9 would want to be here.
10 The third thing, public benefit, tying it
11 all back together. This transit shelter
12 advertising legislation will result in the
13 creation of 50 new transit shelters being
14 constructed per year, a total of 750 shelters in
15 15 years, including all maintenance. This
16 equates to approximately $14 million or
17 $1 million per year for the transit-dependent
18 citizens of Jacksonville at no cost to the
19 taxpayer. Transit shelter construction with
20 advertising is proposed on the designated bus
21 routes and select corridors.
22 And, additionally, the legislation provides
23 for a reporting requirement for JTA to come back
24 to the City Council every year to demonstrate
25 that the transit shelters that are being
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 constructed with the advertising are being
2 constructed based on actual ridership demand and
3 special needs of the riders in those areas,
4 so --
5 The Department, you know, recognizes both
6 sides of this issue. And, clearly, based on the
7 existing comprehensive plan and the laws that we
8 have in place, we are very supportive of this
9 legislation.
10 Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Inaudible.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry?
14 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Inaudible.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure, go ahead.
16 We have a question from Mr. Crescimbeni.
17 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Chairman, through the
18 Chair to Mr. Kelly.
19 Mr. Kelly, the 50 shelters per year, 750
20 total, what page is that on?
21 MR. KELLY: The number was given to me from
22 JTA based on the anticipated number of shelters
23 per year that could be built and maintained by
24 the commercial --
25 MR. CRESCIMBENI: So that's not in the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 ordinance?
2 MR. KELLY: No, it isn't.
3 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Could it be less than
4 that?
5 MR. KELLY: Of course it could, yes.
6 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, sir.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaffney, do you have a
8 question for Mr. Kelly?
9 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes. One quick question
10 here.
11 Now, is this something we -- the Corrigan
12 bill, with the historical areas, is this
13 something that we're going to take up right now,
14 or is this something later? Because I wanted to
15 also have Springfield added to exclude it.
16 MR. KELLY: It is my understanding that
17 there's a substitute that's going to be --
18 that's on the floor for this committee that
19 basically would exempt out the Riverside
20 Avondale zoning overlay.
21 And in your packages at your desk, I handed
22 out a letter from the Historic Preservation
23 Commission, from the Springfield SPAR group that
24 would also like to be --
25 DR. GAFFNEY: Yeah, I want them added.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's get into those issues
2 when we get to the sub.
3 Let's go ahead and open the public hearing.
4 If there's anybody who has -- who wants to
5 speak, has not submitted a blue card, please go
6 ahead and do that.
7 We're going to start with Mr. David Cohen,
8 unless you guys want to flip-flop around. I've
9 got Mr. Blaylock and Mr. Miller as well.
10 Whoever wants to go first.
11 (Mr. Cohen approaches the podium.)
12 MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.
13 Councilman Holt, if we could switch the
14 order on you a little bit.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
16 MR. COHEN: I think Mr. Blaylock would like
17 to lead off, and I know Mr. Miller has a handout
18 for you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. There's only three.
20 So whatever order you want to go in, fine by me.
21 (Mr. Blaylock approaches the podium.)
22 MR. BLAYLOCK: Good afternoon. I'll be
23 very brief.
24 Michael Blaylock, executive director for
25 Jacksonville Transportation Authority, 100 North
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1 Myrtle Avenue, Jacksonville, Florida.
2 I think the issue is that the Authority has
3 worked very diligently with the different
4 entities. The Planning Department -- we have
5 incorporated recommendations from the Planning
6 Department. We have met with the JEDC. We have
7 incorporated recommendations from the JEDC.
8 We have also embraced the recommendation
9 from Councilman Corrigan and Dr. Gaffney with
10 respect to the historic districts in that we
11 would not provide shelters with advertising in
12 those districts.
13 We have worked very hard to try to get this
14 question called because out of the approximately
15 6,000 shelters [sic] that we have on the street,
16 there is less than 10 percent of -- are provided
17 with covered shelters.
18 The other part of the equation is that --
19 as I have indicated, that we have spoken with
20 all these other entities. The people that
21 really matter have spoken and have spoken very
22 clearly, and that is that they want more
23 shelters, more rapidly, as soon as possible.
24 The board of directors have charged us
25 with, whenever there is an opportunity to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 acquire funding from private sources for public
2 benefit, then we should take advantage of it.
3 And this is just a drop in the bucket in terms
4 of a contribution from the private sector.
5 And our issue is quite -- we're not in the
6 business of advertising, if you will, but we
7 have entities that will be interested in
8 providing shelters at no cost to this Authority
9 based on our design, prescribed designs,
10 location placements, as well as maintaining
11 those shelters, which is really the biggest
12 issue that we face, the reoccurring cost for
13 maintaining the shelters.
14 We have a number of shelters that have to
15 be cleaned as much as two and three times a
16 week. It's an enormous expense. We're
17 somewhere around $400,000 that we're spending
18 now. And even on the current plan, the 50
19 shelters a year is just a minimal. It's a
20 baseline.
21 But we have already committed that in
22 addition to the 50, we're going to continue to
23 add 20 -- at least 20 to 30 shelters a year, of
24 which we would have to still maintain the
25 maintenance cost. But by shifting that cost to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 the private sector, then that reduces the burden
2 on our sales tax dollars.
3 So I'm just asking that the council will
4 support bill number 2009-401 for the people that
5 it really does matter in terms of the protection
6 from the elements. It's that simple.
7 So I will answer any questions if you have
8 any.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions for
10 Mr. Blaylock?
11 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Indicating.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crescimbeni.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Chairman, I have some
14 questions. But if you would prefer, if it would
15 be easier, I'll wait till everybody speaks, and
16 then -- if you'll just allow them to come back
17 up to the podium.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: If it's a question for
19 Mr. Blaylock, you can get it now or --
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. I mean, I just --
21 I wanted to -- didn't want to disrupt your
22 pattern.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: No.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Thank you, sir.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Blaylock, thank you
2 for being here tonight.
3 You said 6,000 shelters, but I think you
4 meant 6,000 stops.
5 MR. BLAYLOCK: I'm sorry. Thank you, sir.
6 Thank you for correcting me.
7 Six thousand bus stops.
8 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Right.
9 If we had 6,000 shelters, we'd be in great
10 shape --
11 MR. BLAYLOCK: Isn't that wonderful?
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: -- wouldn't we?
13 MR. BLAYLOCK: It would be great.
14 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I had a couple of
15 questions for you, sir.
16 I just recently got your 2008/200- -- it
17 was the 2007/2008 annual report that you sent to
18 the council members.
19 MR. BLAYLOCK: Uh-huh.
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And on page 9 in there,
21 it said that JTA was a State agency; is that
22 correct?
23 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Also, I understand
25 that JTA has hired some lobbyists to help push
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
51
1 this issue through the City Council; is that
2 correct?
3 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir. We have people
4 assisting us in this matter.
5 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Who are those people?
6 MR. BLAYLOCK: We have the -- what is the
7 agency? I think Mr. Gilmore, Mr. Jim Gilmore is
8 the principal working with us.
9 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Anybody else?
10 MR. BLAYLOCK: Other than Michael Miller
11 that you-all --
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Well, he's not a
13 lobbyist. I think he's your employee, isn't
14 he?
15 MR. BLAYLOCK: He lobbies for us, but --
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I know, but he's an
17 employee. He doesn't count.
18 Okay. Thank you, sir.
19 And the e-mail from -- that I got from
20 Van Dyke Walker, who's your facilities manager;
21 is that correct?
22 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir, facilities.
23 MR. CRESCIMBENI: He sent an e-mail to me
24 on the 23rd of September. We had had some
25 discussions about shelters. He said that you
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1 had 312 on the street and 28 in storage that
2 were either damaged by auto accidents or were
3 requir- -- or were requiring refurbishment. Is
4 that about -- the total of 340, is that about --
5 MR. BLAYLOCK: I know it's somewhere
6 around -- I know they had about 30 that was in
7 for refurbishment.
8 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. And then my last
9 question, sir, was -- I was looking at this
10 handout that I know Mr. Miller, I guess, is
11 going to get to.
12 Has JTA had any conversations with any bus
13 shelter or outdoor advertising companies
14 specifically? And, if so, what companies have
15 you had discussions with?
16 MR. BLAYLOCK: Not that I'm aware of. I
17 can refer that to Michael Miller.
18 Mike, do you want to come up? Because I'm
19 not --
20 I have had conversations with other cities,
21 other transit properties in terms of their
22 program and, you know, how they manage their
23 program, but Michael --
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Right.
25 Well, I just -- I noticed the first picture
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1 in this handout was a Clear Channel shelter, and
2 I didn't know if we had had any discussions with
3 any particular companies or not over the process
4 of years that we've been dealing with this
5 issue.
6 (Mr. Miller approaches the podium.)
7 MR. MILLER: Through the Chair,
8 Mr. Crescimbeni, we have not spoken to any
9 companies that act as vendors for advertising
10 shelters. Our discussions have been with other
11 cities, as Mr. Blaylock has referred to. I have
12 looked at a number of the contracts with other
13 cities that have programs like this just to see
14 how the contracts are written.
15 And we did have a session -- in fact, the
16 Planning Department was part of this and so was
17 the JEDC -- as we started looking for potential
18 designs for the downtown area of shelters, but
19 that was with shelter manufacturing companies
20 and not companies who participate in the project
21 that we're proposing.
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Do you know what
23 companies do participate in shelter -- providing
24 shelters and then recruiting the advertising for
25 them?
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1 MR. MILLER: Absolutely, sir.
2 In our discussions with other cities and
3 the contracts I've reviewed, I've seen them with
4 various companies.
5 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Can you name any?
6 MR. MILLER: Clear Channel is one, Lamar
7 does it. There's one called Southern Media,
8 which I'm not too familiar with. It's a rather
9 small company, but as I understand --
10 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Is that the one --
11 MR. MILLER: As I understand it, there are
12 approximately 25 companies nationally who
13 participate in this program in one way or
14 another.
15 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Thank you.
16 MR. MILLER: They don't all participate in
17 the same level.
18 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you very much.
19 MR. MILLER: You're welcome.
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All righty. If there's no
22 other speakers -- or no other questions for
23 Mr. Blaylock, we -- whoever wants to come up
24 next, Mr. Miller or Mr. Cohen.
25 (Mr. Miller approaches the podium.)
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1 MR. MILLER: Basically, I just wanted to
2 make myself available for any other questions
3 that may come up. But I did want to, if I
4 could, revert back for just one moment to the
5 question about 50 shelters that was asked of
6 Mr. Blaylock.
7 In most cases that I've investigated and
8 what we hope to be able to do is set 50 as a
9 minimum number per year that would be erected.
10 There are some companies who have exceeded that
11 number, just as they have found enough demand
12 for it and also enough revenue to be able to do
13 it, but the 50 is a minimum that we'd like to be
14 able to put up each year.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller, did you give
17 your name and address for the record? I don't
18 think you did.
19 MR. MILLER: Mike Miller, JTA, 100 North
20 Myrtle, Jacksonville.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
22 All right. Mr. Cohen.
23 (Mr. Cohen approaches the podium.)
24 MR. COHEN: David Cohen, Edwards Cohen,
25 6 East Bay Street, Suite 500.
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1 I'm general counsel to the Jacksonville
2 Transportation Authority, and I'm available for
3 your questions today.
4 Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any questions
6 for Mr. Cohen?
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none,
9 thank you, sir.
10 All right. Next we have Mr. Arpen.
11 (Mr. Arpen approaches the podium.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Nice tie, Mr. Arpen.
13 MR. ARPEN: Thank you.
14 I wasn't sure if I'd win votes or lose them
15 by wearing it.
16 Thanks. Good to be back.
17 Tracey Arpen, 3489 Loretto Road,
18 Jacksonville, Florida.
19 I'm here to speak in opposition to
20 ordinance 2009-401, not because I don't believe
21 we need bus shelters. I mean, everybody
22 recognizes we need more bus shelters, and I
23 applaud the efforts of Councilmember Jones to
24 try and reach that goal and also the efforts
25 that Mike Blaylock has made since his arrival at
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1 JTA, as chairman, to -- or CEO, to dramatically
2 increase the number of bus shelters.
3 I think the issue is not should we have
4 more bus shelters, but at what cost and how will
5 they be delivered. And I'm concerned about the
6 cost. It may not necessarily be a financial
7 cost, although I'll get to those as well.
8 What I'm concerned about is -- as a cost of
9 the bill you have before you, is the very
10 undoing of the billboard referendum that passed
11 overwhelmingly by voters. The public has spoken
12 on that issue too pretty loudly. We collected
13 18,000 signatures in a single day to put the
14 issue on the ballot. It passed in a landslide.
15 There is a case pending before the Supreme
16 Court now -- or seeking an appeal before the
17 Supreme Court, which, if it plays out the way it
18 did in the trial court in Los Angeles, could be
19 the very undoing of the billboard referendum,
20 which has resulted in the removal of over 1,000
21 billboard faces in the city of Jacksonville, has
22 been a prohibition on new billboard faces since
23 1987.
24 And my concern arises out of a case that
25 came out of the City of Los Angeles, which also
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1 had a billboard ban, which also allowed
2 advertising on bus shelters within the
3 right-of-way. The trial court said that by
4 doing that, you undermined your rationale for
5 banning billboards -- mainly traffic safety and
6 aesthetics -- you could not prohibit off-site
7 advertising off of the right-of-way while at the
8 same time allowing it on the right-of-way.
9 That case is still pending. We don't know
10 what the outcome will be, but it could also -- I
11 would point out, it could also affect portions
12 of the on-site sign ordinance as well,
13 particularly the prohibition on signs in the
14 right-of-way. Again, how can you prohibit signs
15 in the right-of-way and allow them for bus
16 shelters?
17 The same thing with the 10-foot setback.
18 You'll hear talk about the severability
19 clause perhaps. There's no guarantee that might
20 be accepted by a court. Even if it is, you've
21 got the issue of the shelters that may have gone
22 up in the meantime and what their rights are,
23 what the cost may be of breaching the contract.
24 You've also got a potential lawsuit or
25 probable lawsuit against the City as well as JTA
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1 by billboard companies if this passes. The City
2 will incur hundreds of thousands, if not
3 millions, of dollars in legal fees and expenses
4 in such a lawsuit and should be indemnified for
5 those.
6 I'll be glad to answer any questions.
7 Finally, the concern -- it just -- this is
8 bad policy. It's a step backwards in cleaning
9 up visual pollution. These are not anything
10 other than illuminated billboard faces within
11 the right-of-way.
12 Thank you, and I'll be glad to answer any
13 questions.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Arpen, I believe
15 Mr. Crescimbeni has a question for you.
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 Through the Chair to Mr. Arpen. Mr. Arpen,
18 at the beginning of the meeting, when Mr. Kelly
19 was giving his description, he read from the
20 charter amendment.
21 Did you have anything to do with the
22 construction of that charter amendment?
23 MR. ARPEN: Actually, Bill Brinton and I
24 were the authors of it. And Bill Brinton and I
25 were the two that argued the case successfully
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1 before the Florida Supreme Court defending the
2 billboard charter amendment. I, on behalf of
3 the City, and Bill Brinton, on behalf of
4 Cap Signs, so I do have some familiarity.
5 The concern is not that the sign is smaller
6 than the amount of square footage allowed to
7 trigger the charter. The charter -- the concern
8 is, as I mentioned, the rationale of the
9 Los Angeles case, that the very adoption of this
10 ordinance undermines the rationale for the
11 charter being on the books at all.
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. I wanted you to
13 just address Mr. Kelly's comments because it
14 sounded like he was giving us a legal opinion.
15 And I'm not sure if he's familiar with the
16 Metro Lights case or not, but -- I mean, can you
17 respond to his comments about that specific part
18 that he told us? I mean, how -- do you disagree
19 or agree with him, where he read from the
20 language talking about signs less than 24 square
21 feet.
22 MR. ARPEN: Well, as I read what he -- or
23 understood what he was saying, I took him to be
24 saying that there's no problem with the charter
25 because it's smaller than the allowed signs
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1 under the charter. And that's true. It's not
2 in violation of the charter by having a
3 24-square-foot off-site sign. That's not the
4 problem.
5 The problem is that adopting a bill that
6 allows off-site advertising in the right-of-way
7 will be used to try and defeat the rationale for
8 the charter amendment being on the books.
9 We'll wait for the result and the City
10 being flooded with billboard permit applications
11 and no basis to deny them while the billboard
12 ban is struck down before it could be reenacted.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Arpen.
14 Through the Chair, again, if -- in the
15 Metro Lights case versus the City of
16 Los Angeles, the California District Court did
17 strike down the entire sign code for
18 Los Angeles.
19 If that were to happen here, what could
20 happen in the interim of a sign code being
21 struck down? I mean, could billboards be
22 erected in Duval County if our whole sign code
23 and charter amendment were thrown out?
24 MR. ARPEN: Well, I would anticipate what
25 would happen would be, as I said, the City would
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1 be flooded with permit applications to erect
2 billboards on city streets at a time when
3 there's no law on the books to prohibit it
4 because that law has been struck down.
5 Now, the City can go back and reenact it
6 perhaps by throwing out the part of the bill
7 that allows bus shelter advertising. But even
8 if they do that, you've got the billboards that
9 have gone up in the meantime. And at the time
10 the charter amendment passed, you could require
11 removal of billboards along non- -- that were
12 not on federal aid or interstate highways
13 without paying cash compensation by using
14 amortization.
15 The problem is the state law has changed in
16 the meantime. To remove any billboard that goes
17 up in the meantime would require cash
18 compensation to the owner. So if new billboards
19 go up, the City would have to pay hundreds of
20 thousands of dollars per billboard to get those
21 billboards back down again.
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: As compared to in '87
23 when they were just amortizing over a five-year
24 period.
25 MR. ARPEN: That's correct.
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1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And in the absence of a
2 sign code, if the sign code were to be struck
3 down, those billboards, and any sign, for that
4 matter, could go up anywhere, correct? They
5 could go up in historic districts? They could
6 go up in -- is that correct?
7 MR. ARPEN: I would think that would be the
8 case because what the court does is they say
9 your rationale for adopting it, traffic safety
10 and aesthetics, is invalid by allowing them
11 within the right-of-way if they follow the
12 rationale of the Los Angeles trial court.
13 And so, if anything, that is -- it would
14 prohibit off-site advertising anywhere would be
15 struck down and there would be no law on the
16 books at the time to prohibit off-site
17 advertising anywhere.
18 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. And one final
19 question, Mr. Arpen. I've been working on this
20 issue for years before returning to the City
21 Council and one of the common arguments I've
22 heard over the years is signs at the stadium,
23 signs at the stadium, signs at the stadium,
24 we've got signs at the stadium.
25 Can you talk to me a little about how those
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1 compare to what this ordinance would provide
2 for?
3 MR. ARPEN: And I do know that that was
4 something Mr. Kelly raised, the fact that that
5 language, when we permitted the shelter -- the
6 signage at the stadium also had a severability
7 clause in it, which I drafted as I drafted the
8 severability clause that's before you tonight
9 before I left the City.
10 But I think -- I think that's apples and
11 oranges. You know, there's one thing in terms
12 of putting a sign within the right-of-way while
13 prohibiting it, you know, just off the
14 right-of-way, which is what the court had a
15 problem with, the Los Angeles case.
16 It's a completely different thing, I think,
17 where you've got the signs down at the stadium,
18 which are set back hundreds of feet from the
19 right-of-way. I don't think that provides the
20 same vehicle for challenge to the billboard ban
21 that the sign in the right-of-way does.
22 And then the other problem too is if it did
23 and if that were struck down, you know, from a
24 practical standpoint, there aren't a whole lot
25 of places to put up signs at the stadium.
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1 But I think the main thing is that it's
2 apples and oranges. One, putting signs in the
3 right-of-way, which undermines the rationale for
4 banning them elsewhere as opposed to stadium
5 signs, which aren't near the right-of-way at
6 all.
7 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Arpen.
8 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Arpen, hold
10 on. Mr. Jones has a question for you.
11 MR. JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 Through the Chair to Mr. Arpen.
13 The first question, Mr. Arpen, Orlando --
14 does Orlando have a sign ordinance too?
15 MR. ARPEN: They do. I don't know that
16 they have an off-site billboard ban, but they
17 have an on-site sign ordinance, as most cities
18 do.
19 MR. JONES: And to the best of your
20 knowledge, has that sign ordinance been
21 overturned or challenged in Orlando?
22 MR. ARPEN: I don't know -- I don't know
23 that it has been.
24 MR. JONES: Okay.
25 MR. ARPEN: But, again, it's that -- I
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1 don't know whether they -- I don't believe
2 Orlando is one of the places -- in fact, if you
3 go to Orlando, you can see it's not one of the
4 cities that has banned -- has banned
5 billboards. They continue to go up in the city
6 of Orlando.
7 So, you know, anybody who has been down
8 there -- apparently they don't have a billboard
9 ban in Orlando, so there's not anything that the
10 billboard companies would try and have thrown
11 out.
12 MR. JONES: By definition, what we're
13 proposing is not a billboard, is it?
14 MR. ARPEN: No. But the problem is that
15 what we're proposing gives the billboard
16 companies a way to go to court and try and have
17 the billboard ban that's been in place for
18 almost 25 years thrown out so that there would
19 be a means to have new billboards erected in the
20 city for the first time since 1987.
21 MR. JONES: Okay. The -- I think it's the
22 Eleventh Circuit Court opinion that you referred
23 to, Metro Lights?
24 MR. ARPEN: Actually, that was the Ninth
25 Circuit.
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1 MR. JONES: Ninth Circuit.
2 MR. ARPEN: It was the appellate court
3 which reversed it. The billboard company has
4 appealed to the Supreme Court. The request for
5 discretionary review by the Supreme Court is
6 still pending. It was not in the number of
7 cases that the court just accepted jurisdiction
8 on yesterday because there was an extended
9 briefing schedule to give the court as to
10 whether or not they would take the case. So we
11 probably won't know for another couple of months
12 whether they're even going to take the case.
13 And if we do, we'd know probably by next summer
14 what the outcome is.
15 What could be even worse is, if they don't
16 take the case, then the law is up in the air and
17 we don't know, you know, what the law is.
18 There's nothing binding on our circuit and it
19 could go either way on the issue.
20 MR. JONES: I thought our circuit, other
21 circuits would follow the lead of the --
22 whatever the circuit recommended in California.
23 MR. ARPEN: They aren't obliged to. In
24 other words, it's binding on all of the district
25 courts within that circuit.
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1 It's something that can be argued as
2 persuasive or authority in argument in other
3 circuits, like the Eleventh Circuit we're in,
4 but it's in no way binding upon the Eleventh
5 Circuit to follow it.
6 MR. JONES: The Los Angeles case allowed
7 for signage on not just bus shelters, did it
8 not?
9 MR. ARPEN: That's correct.
10 MR. JONES: It included all street
11 furniture --
12 MR. ARPEN: Street furniture.
13 MR. JONES: -- which was the garbage cans,
14 the benches, everything. Our bill is limited
15 just to the bus shelters.
16 MR. ARPEN: That's correct.
17 I don't think the court in the Metro Lights
18 case was as concerned about what the signs were
19 being placed on -- be it bus shelters, garbage
20 cans, kiosks or whatever -- as the fact that
21 they were being placed within the right-of-way,
22 closer to the cars as opposed to billboards.
23 When the billboards were banned, based on
24 traffic safety and aesthetics, I think the court
25 was concerned about what you were putting in the
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1 right-of-way, not what piece of furniture or
2 appliance you were putting it on.
3 MR. JONES: Okay. But in the end, the
4 Ninth Circuit in that area did uphold that
5 particular bill?
6 MR. ARPEN: That's correct.
7 MR. JONES: Okay. Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Arpen.
9 Anybody else have a question for
10 Mr. Arpen?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Louise De Spain, and after
13 that will be Danny Ferreira.
14 (Ms. De Spain approaches the podium.)
15 MS. DE SPAIN: Louise De Spain, 1851 North
16 Liberty Street.
17 I came here specifically to represent
18 Springfield and SPAR -- I'm the executive
19 director of SPAR -- to ask that the historic
20 districts -- both Riverside, Avondale and
21 Springfield -- be exempt from this ordinance.
22 But also, the letter that you received in
23 your packet from the Historic Preservation
24 Commission does ask that the entire overlay area
25 be exempt, and it sounds like that's going to
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1 happen.
2 And I especially want to thank Dr. Gaffney
3 for helping us on that, which he does
4 frequently. And I'd also like to thank JTA for
5 taking that into consideration.
6 Thank you very much.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. De Spain.
8 Mr. Ferreira.
9 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Danny Ferreira, 14838
11 Edwards Creek Road North in Jacksonville.
12 I was so pleased to have Mr. Tracey Arpen
13 explain things so thorough. And my contentions
14 opposing this ordinance change has always been
15 predicated on the fact that we're governed by a
16 representative government, and the people in '87
17 overwhelmingly indicated that they didn't want
18 the signs of any -- any manner placed on the
19 public right-of-way.
20 It's my feeling that government and sign
21 companies are not compatible. I think this is
22 what the public or the taxpayers dislike most,
23 to find that -- something that makes good
24 principle government and clean environment
25 overridden by special privileged companies that
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1 lobby.
2 I believe it's wrong for ten
3 representatives of Council here to have signed
4 an agreement with an ordinance change to deny
5 what was established by the majority of the
6 people in this city had voted. And the Planning
7 Committee in 2005 and in 2008 had denied this
8 change.
9 Signs are not visually attractive. They're
10 a visual pollution that take away from the view
11 from what can be attractive.
12 Having seen CNN news the other night,
13 homeless in Instanbul, sleeping in sign-covered
14 shelters advertising perfume and Rolex watches.
15 And you can imagine the appearance of these
16 attractive people with the perfume ad and the
17 Rolex watches.
18 How is this good government? What's next?
19 The playgrounds? The boat ramps? Public
20 buildings? Is it not -- it's not anti-business
21 that I oppose the sign company using our public
22 right-of-way. It's just wrong to represent --
23 to represent public property like this.
24 How can I explain this to my grandchildren,
25 why signs are allowed to be placed along public
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1 right-of-ways all over the city. I can only
2 say, it looks like the council members were
3 thinking of money, and here's a list of the
4 council members who were the sponsors.
5 So please try to legislate and hold this
6 ordinance intact and don't change it.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Stand by, Mr. Ferreira.
8 Mr. Jones has a question for you.
9 MR. JONES: Just wanted to, for the record,
10 state that I certainly -- and I don't think any
11 of the council members have been lobbied by any
12 special interest groups. That certainly has not
13 happened.
14 And, secondly, I think that -- you can ask
15 one attorney one legal opinion and get one, and
16 ask someone else a different -- and get a
17 different opinion.
18 I think we all in good faith, who support
19 this legislation, do so because we feel that we
20 are in good legal standing and not that we're
21 trying to undo anything that the voters have
22 imposed upon this community.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Jones.
24 Thank you, Mr. Ferreira.
25 MR. FERREIRA: That's very hard for me to
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1 understand, with all respect.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I know there was a question
3 in there somewhere.
4 MR. FERREIRA: In all respect, it's hard
5 for me to understand --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
7 MR. FERREIRA: You're welcome.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Coleman, followed by
9 Ms. Mansfield.
10 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Doug Coleman, 3885
12 St. Johns Avenue.
13 I can understand your temptation. This is
14 easy money to provide something for people, and
15 I certainly understand those people that don't
16 have a shelter and they're taking a bus, but I
17 suppose some of you might have had the pleasure
18 of seeing the National Park Service on
19 television this past week and you probably
20 noticed there weren't any billboards in the
21 parks and you probably noticed how difficult it
22 was to get to that point, how much trouble
23 people went to to ensure that these parks remain
24 as beautiful and natural as they are. And the
25 problem is -- with these billboards, is when you
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1 say 750 bus shelters, I think 750 billboards are
2 coming to my town, and it doesn't make me
3 happy.
4 It's a very difficult decision, I know, but
5 I'm opposed to the idea of these shelters with
6 advertising and especially in the historic
7 districts, so I hope you give it serious
8 thought.
9 Thank you very much.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
11 Ms. Mansfield, followed by Lou Gena Smith.
12 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Jennifer Mansfield at
14 2043 College Street.
15 I also live in the historic district. I am
16 the Chair of Riverside Avondale Preservation's
17 Historic Preservation Committee.
18 RAP is not opposed to bus shelters. In
19 fact, the Riverside Avondale district has a long
20 history of public transportation in it, but our
21 neighborhood is opposed to inappropriate shelter
22 design to the historic areas, especially when
23 combined with backlit lighting. The overlay
24 does not -- the zoning overlay does not allow
25 for backlit lighting.
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1 We understand that Councilman Corrigan is
2 introducing a substitute bill, but we haven't
3 heard about it yet, and so we are -- I do -- we
4 want to place on the record that we're opposed
5 to the backlit lighting because it does not
6 comply with our zoning overlay.
7 The businesses have to have their signage
8 reviewed by the historic planners and zoning
9 officials to ensure that it complies, and we
10 think that the JTA should have to do the same.
11 Why shouldn't they?
12 We believe that the COA process is
13 important for that. The bill would exempt them
14 from the COA process. We think that a plan
15 and -- as far as locations and design could be
16 constructed, much as what is in for the downtown
17 district, so it could be done once rather than
18 in piecemeal fashion, but we think it's
19 important to keep the COA process as part of the
20 legislation.
21 Importantly, it has -- the current
22 legislation has three proposed designs that were
23 presented to the Jacksonville Historic
24 Preservation Commission, but there is nothing in
25 it about what the content of those designs would
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1 be, and what if the Jacksonville Historic
2 Preservation Commission determines that none of
3 those three are compatible with the historic
4 districts?
5 We'd like to be able to work with the JTA
6 in establishing which are the appropriate
7 designs and -- for the historic districts,
8 instead of giving them carte blanche into what's
9 put into the districts.
10 Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
12 Lou Gena Smith, followed by Wyman Duggan.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Question.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. Mr. Crescimbeni
15 has a question for you, Ms. Mansfield.
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
17 Through the Chair to Ms. Mansfield, I just
18 want to make sure I understand you correctly.
19 You're not opposed to shelters with
20 advertising, you're just opposed to backlit
21 advertising; is that --
22 MS. MANSFIELD: We are opposed to shelters
23 with advertising.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. I'm sorry. I
25 misunderstood.
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1 Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Mansfield.
3 Now Ms. Smith.
4 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
6 My name is Lou Gena Smith, 220 East Forsyth
7 Street, Suite C, 32202.
8 I'm the executive director of Jax Pride, a
9 coalition for visual enhancement. For the
10 record, I just want to state that I did send a
11 letter to each of you. It was dated September
12 16th, stating Jax Pride's opposition. I hope
13 you've all had a chance to review it.
14 Per our mission to advocate for heightness
15 [sic] awareness of our visual surroundings, we
16 aim to increase public awareness of the needs
17 and opportunities that will improve our city's
18 visual appearance by vigorous enforcement of
19 ordinances that pertain to our visual
20 environment, such as but not limited to the sign
21 ordinance.
22 For several years Jax Pride has arduously
23 worked to enhance Jacksonville's visual
24 appearance. While we acknowledge the importance
25 of providing shelters to bus riders for the --
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1 to protect them from the elements of the
2 environment, we oppose the proposed exemption
3 because it could jeopardize the sign ordinance.
4 As referred to earlier in a similar case,
5 the City of Los Angeles' entire sign ordinance
6 was struck down by a district court in
7 California. The City appealed this decision and
8 successfully have their sign ordinance
9 reinstated.
10 In this decision, the appellate court also
11 granted LA's transit authority an exemption from
12 the sign ordinance to allow them to enter into a
13 contract with an advertising company for bus
14 shelters with advertising. However, the
15 plaintiff, Metro Lights, was not pleased with
16 this decision. As such, they have recently
17 filed a writ before the U.S. Supreme Court.
18 The City of Los Angeles has been defending
19 their sign ordinance since 2003. Legal fees are
20 not cheap. As I just stated, the advertising
21 industry is persistent and their wallets are
22 deep.
23 Over seven years of potential legal costs
24 to the City of Jacksonville would outweigh the
25 construction and maintenance cost that will be
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1 paid for by the advertising.
2 In addition, an article titled Give Me
3 Shelter is in Folio Weekly's September 15th
4 issue. It was uncovered that JTA has
5 $72 million of unencumbered funds, which should
6 be used to pay for bus shelters.
7 Also, JTA should have applied for stimulus
8 dollars to pay for the bus shelters rather than
9 putting our City's sign ordinance and the
10 progress in minimizing visual blight at risk.
11 The Cities of Coolidge and Cottonwood,
12 Arizona, and even Central Florida's regional
13 transportation authority links have applied for
14 stimulus dollars and was successful.
15 The City of Albuquerque is receiving
16 $9.8 million to buy 500 new bus shelters. The
17 list is a lot longer and can be viewed by
18 Googling the words "bus shelters" and "American
19 Recovery and Investment [sic] Act" if you'd like
20 to view them.
21 As I said already, Jax Pride is in support
22 of bus shelters. It's the approach, the means
23 that we were concerned with. As such, we must
24 oppose bill 2009-401 because of the risk it
25 would be putting our city in, not to mention all
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1 of the work of our organization, our -- and
2 other community leaders to minimize visual
3 blight in Jacksonville.
4 By passing the sign ordinance, the outdoor
5 advertising charter amendment and settlement
6 agreements that were entered into with several
7 advertising companies, which would only be in
8 effect if this sign ordinance is not
9 diminished --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am. Your time
11 is expired.
12 MS. SMITH: Okay.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions?
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Duggan.
16 (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)
17 MR. DUGGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 Wyman Duggan, 1301 Riverplace Boulevard,
19 Suite 1500.
20 I'm here in my capacity as a board member
21 of Jax Pride, which Ms. Smith is the executive
22 director of.
23 Let me begin by saying I'm all in favor of
24 public/private partnerships and private
25 development rights, and I think you know that
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1 from my private practice, but there's some
2 points that I think I want to make here and I
3 want to make sure you understand.
4 The operation of a bus system is a core
5 function of JTA. If the need for the shelters
6 is there, they should build the shelters
7 regardless of whether they get the advertising
8 revenue to do it or they find it from somewhere
9 else in their budget, and they should certainly
10 program funds for that before they start trying
11 to become a regional transportation agency.
12 They were set up to serve the citizens of
13 Jacksonville first, and they should keep that in
14 mind, and you should keep that in mind before
15 you approve this bill for the reasons that I'll
16 move on to now, which is that there's a larger
17 risk to the City in this bill.
18 The fact that the Office of General Counsel
19 has given an opinion that the fact that the
20 advertising will be below the limit set forth in
21 the charter amendment on the signage does not
22 mean that this can't be the -- passing this bill
23 couldn't be the basis for litigation against the
24 City that would seek to overturn that
25 limitation -- or the entire prohibition on
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1 billboard signs. And, as we've heard, that has
2 already happened in California.
3 The basis of the argument would be it's an
4 arbitrary distinction to say 26 feet and above
5 is banned, 25 feet and below is not banned.
6 That would provide somebody the right to come to
7 the court and say, you can't distinguish between
8 these two on that basis, so you need to throw
9 the whole thing out.
10 And, as you've heard from Mr. Arpen, any
11 signs that go up in the interim, now the City
12 has to pay a lot of money to get them down, if
13 we go back, reenact the bill and then try to
14 take them down. And who's going to pay for
15 that? Is JTA going to pay for that? No. The
16 City is going to pay for that.
17 And you heard at the beginning of his
18 comments, Mr. Blaylock said -- and I wrote it
19 down. Quote, this is just a drop in the bucket
20 as far as private contributions, end quote. I
21 submit to you that the downside financial risk
22 to the City, especially in this budget
23 environment, is not worth undertaking for a,
24 quote, drop in the bucket to cover a core
25 function of JTA.
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1 My final point: I think you have a
2 significant legal issue in excluding some
3 neighborhoods from the operation of this bill
4 but not others. Again, that would provide the
5 billboard companies the opportunity to come in
6 and say, it's arbitrary and capricious to
7 distinguish between prohibiting these types of
8 advertisements in one neighborhood but not the
9 other. And that's all it takes to get into
10 court. And once you're before a judge, all bets
11 are off. You're rolling the dice.
12 It's not sufficient for the Office of
13 General Counsel to say, you should be fine,
14 because I can tell you, when you're before a
15 court anything could happen, and then you face
16 this downside exposure.
17 Finally, I think there's also a significant
18 social justice issue that you need to be aware
19 of -- or keep in mind when you exclude the
20 higher income and regentrifying neighborhoods of
21 the city from the operation of this bill but not
22 some of the lower income.
23 Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Duggan.
25 Mr. Crescimbeni has a question for you,
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1 Mr. Duggan.
2 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Duggan, just for the
3 record, what's your occupation?
4 MR. DUGGAN: I'm a land use attorney. I
5 represent private developers.
6 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Have you been in court
7 before, before a judge?
8 MR. DUGGAN: I have, and -- not in
9 connection with land use, but yes.
10 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I understand.
11 Thank you very much.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Duggan.
13 Mr. Hawkins, followed by Leslie Goller.
14 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
16 My name is Lad Hawkins. I live at 1924
17 Holly Oaks Lake Road West.
18 I'm also a member of Jax Pride. I voted
19 for Cap Signs. And I am a landscape architect
20 by degree. I've worked as a planner here for
21 40 years.
22 This is not about whether we should or
23 shouldn't have bus shelters. We should have bus
24 shelters, end of story, and JTA should plan for
25 that as part of their whole program.
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1 The question is, where should these
2 shelters be built? If you need a shelter and
3 it's near houses, this won't allow you to build
4 it with that money, so they -- they need to have
5 money to build that shelter by the houses, where
6 the people live, so they can actually get on the
7 bus and go somewhere. You don't build this on
8 main highways where there are no people because
9 it's 200 feet away from any house so that it
10 meets this ordinance.
11 And I agree with Mr. Duggan, that you can't
12 exclude Riverside and Springfield, but then, you
13 know, leave Arlington to be -- to deal with
14 this.
15 I think -- talking about legalities, I get
16 involved in a lot of legal stuff, and Bill
17 Brinton is probably the attorney who knows about
18 billboards. He's one of the country's leading
19 billboard experts. He's spoken to you. He's a
20 member of Jax Pride and he's been involved in
21 this, and he's telling you this is not a good
22 idea.
23 Mr. Blaylock is telling you this is a drop
24 in the bucket. Drop it. You know, it's not
25 worth this -- getting us into trouble.
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1 I encourage you to vote to oppose
2 2009-401.
3 There's one other thing. There's a state
4 law now that allows phone kiosk advertising in
5 the right-of-way. Now, as soon as we start
6 putting these signs in the right-of-way, you're
7 going to have this come up (indicting).
8 I'll pass this around so y'all can all look
9 at it, but this is another illuminated,
10 three-sided billboard. And they're going to put
11 these all up and down any road. They could care
12 less whether you need a phone or not, they just
13 want to put a billboard up.
14 Look at that thing. That's the next thing
15 we're going to get.
16 Next thing you know, JEA is going to be
17 wrapping wraps around their telephone poles in
18 the right-of-way and selling that because they
19 can't afford poles. You know, where are we
20 going to go with this?
21 Just vote no. John Crescimbeni has a good
22 bill, 2009-402, deal with it.
23 Thanks.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
25 Mr. Hawkins, Mr. Jones has a question for
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1 you.
2 Mr. Hawkins.
3 (Mr. Hawkins approaches the podium.)
4 MR. HAWKINS: Yes.
5 MR. JONES: Thank you.
6 Through the Chair to Mr. Hawkins.
7 MR. HAWKINS: Yes, sir.
8 MR. JONES: Did you know that the JTA will
9 continue to place bus shelters throughout the
10 community?
11 MR. HAWKINS: Well, I would hope so.
12 MR. JONES: So they would be in areas that
13 are residential where we can't get advertised
14 signs.
15 MR. HAWKINS: They should have a plan to
16 put all the shelters where they're needed and
17 have a prioritization for the plans,
18 irrespective of whether there's any advertising.
19 MR. JONES: Did you know that's part of
20 this ordinance, that there is a minimum of
21 20 riders per stop in order to justify a bus
22 shelter?
23 MR. HAWKINS: My understanding was that
24 they were going to build 50 a year, but they
25 weren't telling you how many of those were going
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1 to have advertising and how many weren't.
2 MR. JONES: No. The JTA is going to build
3 anywhere from 15 to 30 if I'm not mistaken. The
4 public/private partnership would do the 50 with
5 advertising, and those shelters will be at stops
6 where you have a minimum of 20 passengers per
7 day or more.
8 MR. HAWKINS: As I said before, I'm fully
9 happy to have them build all the shelters that
10 are in places that are needed. We just don't
11 need advertising. That's all.
12 Thank you.
13 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins.
15 Ms. Goller.
16 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
17 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Leslie
18 Goller. I live at 2247 Smullian Trail.
19 I'm here as a public citizen. I'm
20 representing my family and also representing
21 people in Cap Signs, but it's those --
22 representing all of Jacksonville that
23 overwhelmingly voted to stop visual pollution in
24 Jacksonville. You-all have that mandate from
25 the citizens, and there should not be any
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1 consideration now in overturning that by
2 amending that ordinance.
3 People, of course, want bus shelters, but
4 they don't want bus shelters with lighted
5 advertising bearing -- being -- bearing lighted
6 advertising.
7 You know, you look at the ordinance for
8 justification and you say, well, you can have --
9 they're not -- they don't meet the qualification
10 of billboards because they're two square feet
11 smaller. But we don't allow lighted billboards,
12 why would we allow lighted mini billboards? And
13 why would we allow them in the right-of-way?
14 I disagree with one of the gentlemen who
15 spoke to the fact of what I am in opposing it.
16 It's not 750 more lighted billboards, it's 1,500
17 because it's going to be one on each side.
18 There's questions you need to be asking
19 JTA. One of the speakers spoke about it. It's
20 been reported that JTA has a $72 million
21 excess. That doesn't sound like they need to be
22 going to advertising companies to be able to
23 build these shelters which are needed.
24 Why haven't they looked to see whether or
25 not there could be a sponsoring, almost like the
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1 signs or what's done when people adopt the
2 roads, and there be a small plaque on the inside
3 of the shelter that says, sponsored by
4 so-and-so. Why couldn't that be sufficient?
5 Have they even investigated that?
6 Have they even investigated having internal
7 advertising that's not lighted, that would have
8 something on the inside, but it's not visible to
9 the people that are driving by?
10 The idea is they don't want to be
11 advertising to the people that are riding the
12 buses. They want to be catching the people's
13 eyes as they're driving by, which becomes a
14 safety issue.
15 I'm a personal injury lawyer. I see what
16 happens and what causes accidents, and I
17 guarantee you that people are going to have
18 accidents looking at these signs and the City is
19 going to get sued because they've allowed to
20 have those signs on -- as many billboards on the
21 shelters. So think about that.
22 The cost is not worth it. The savings --
23 supposed savings that you're going to have in
24 building these shelters, it's not worth it.
25 We don't want the visual pollution. I
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1 represented the City on -- the citizens on the
2 Environmental Protection Board, and I know that
3 the citizens do not want more visual pollution.
4 Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Goller.
6 Ms. Roberta Thomas, followed by Kay Ehas.
7 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Hi, Ms. Thomas.
9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hello.
10 Roberta Thomas, Lenczyk Drive West,
11 Jacksonville, Florida, over in Arlington.
12 I am here to oppose this ordinance, and I'm
13 really, frankly, quite shocked that there are at
14 least ten councilpersons who would even put this
15 ordinance forth. It's just very shocking.
16 I would like to speak on behalf of my
17 neighborhood, Fort Caroline Club Estates South,
18 in Arlington, and to some degree the historic
19 Arlington area, in which I live in, and also the
20 Rogero town center.
21 This ordinance is not consistent with the
22 vision plans that we have for the streetscape on
23 Rogero town center. We specifically, in our
24 plan, address the problems of visual pollution.
25 When we designed our town center, we were so
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1 adamant about fighting visual pollution that
2 even the zebra striping on the road we
3 eliminated. We put medians there. Anything
4 that was unattractive, we figured out a way to
5 eliminate it, and it's very distressing now to
6 see this come back up in this manner.
7 Also, in the Old Arlington Neighborhood
8 Action Plan, we spent many, many months talking
9 about the fact of visual pollution and how
10 Arlington in District 7 looks bad. And I can't
11 speak on behalf of all of Arlington because I
12 don't have the right, but I would like to
13 request District 7 and maybe District 1 and the
14 at-large councilpersons at least give us an
15 exemption as well. We are known as the historic
16 Arlington area, and we would appreciate that.
17 Also, I am very concerned about
18 illumination on these signs. We've got theme
19 lights on the Rogero corridor and we tried to
20 create a nice, soft nuance and ambience. I
21 don't want to see JTA bus benches with all the
22 signage on there. And, guys, I'm telling you, I
23 know what's in my neighborhood. I know how the
24 people think.
25 Those signs that you put there, that you
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1 think, oh, they're going to be just this big
2 (indicting), they're going to become bulletin
3 boards, guys. You're going to have every yard
4 sale, every car sale, every house for sale is
5 going to have a thumbtack stuck up there like a
6 bulletin board for whatever, and who's going to
7 take those signs down?
8 Now, for the last ten years, I know I have
9 worked in my community in Arlington with
10 Jax Pride going up and down the corridors and
11 roads trying to get rid of visual pollution and
12 signs, whether they're on palm trees, on JTA
13 poles, on the City right-of-way, whatever. This
14 is a step backwards.
15 We're not against the JTA benches; we
16 embrace them, we want them. We are against the
17 illumination, we're against the advertising.
18 I think this is bad planning. I think
19 there are other ways to get the money. I think
20 you guys need to step outside the box and do
21 some better planning and better thinking. I
22 think this money can come forth, and I hope you
23 will vote this down in agreement with the
24 Planning Commission.
25 Thank you very much.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Thomas.
2 Mr. Redman has a question for you,
3 Ms. Thomas.
4 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 Ms. Thomas, you said you have no problem
6 with benches. Do you have a problem with the
7 shelters?
8 MS. THOMAS: Oh, no, sir.
9 In fact, we literally asked for some
10 shelters with the JTA and they didn't have the
11 money.
12 At one time, we had the old -- you may
13 remember, when the City had some money, we had
14 the neighborhood grants that -- we got $5,000
15 from the mayor's neighborhood grants, and then
16 we, the communities, partnered with $5,000 and
17 we helped purchase the shelters. And we have
18 the drawings, the CDs and everything on how to
19 do them, as a matter of fact.
20 And, as a matter of fact, we do have
21 20 riders at some of our bus -- on some of our
22 stops on Rogero. We've worked very, very
23 closely with the JTA. We're not against the
24 shelters.
25 MR. REDMAN: Okay. You mentioned the fact
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1 that people would be tacking things onto the
2 shelters. What will stop them from tacking them
3 onto other shelters?
4 And with this project, the way it's
5 proposed, the companies would keep these places
6 clean, without the expense of JTA having to go
7 around and do the work, which --
8 MS. THOMAS: It just increases the
9 liability of additional visual pollution.
10 Why put an instrument out there on the City
11 right-of-way, which is going to be like a
12 magnet, to attract more signage and more visual
13 pollution?
14 Yeah, we've got it going on there right now
15 on the signs and the benches and whatever right
16 now, and let me tell you --
17 MR. REDMAN: Would you have any more on a
18 shelter with a sign on it --
19 MS. THOMAS: I think so, yes.
20 MR. REDMAN: -- than you would a shelter
21 with no sign on it?
22 MS. THOMAS: My personal opinion, yes.
23 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
24 MS. THOMAS: Thank you.
25 It's a broken window syndrome.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Thomas.
2 Did you have a question for Ms. Thomas?
3 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaffney has a question
5 for you.
6 DR. GAFFNEY: Hi, Ms. Thomas.
7 MS. THOMAS: Hi.
8 DR. GAFFNEY: Have you met with the members
9 of the historic Arlington association?
10 MS. THOMAS: No, I have not.
11 I didn't know this was even coming up until
12 yesterday, I think it was, on e-mail, but I
13 do -- I was a member of the steering committee
14 of the Old Arlington Neighborhood Action Plan,
15 and that lasted for about five years of work.
16 And I'm familiar with all of that, and I live
17 inside the historic Arlington neighborhood.
18 DR. GAFFNEY: So what you're saying is that
19 you would like to be included -- the Arlington
20 historic area would like to be included with the
21 other historic areas?
22 MS. THOMAS: Yes, and Fort Caroline Club
23 Estates South, which is also inside that area.
24 Yes, I would.
25 And what you see happening right here is
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1 one by one, you're seeing neighborhoods coming
2 up and saying exclude us, exclude us, exclude
3 us, exclude us, and you're creating a dominoing
4 effect. And I say more power to all the
5 neighborhoods who come forth because it shows
6 the people do not want visual pollution.
7 DR. GAFFNEY: Okay. Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
9 Mr. Jones has another question for you,
10 Ms. Thomas.
11 MS. THOMAS: Mr. Jones, I know you want
12 this so bad. I feel for you.
13 MR. JONES: No, I just want to make sure
14 we're clear, to Ms. Thomas and Dr. Gaffney.
15 We're talking about historic-designated
16 areas. We're not talking about -- and it's only
17 two in Duval County. And that's why -- and
18 those residents of those two historic districts
19 voted those districts into place.
20 MS. THOMAS: I understand, but we have an
21 ordinance with the Old Arlington Neighborhood
22 Action Plan, which has some guidelines and
23 policies in there, and somebody is blowing those
24 off.
25 MR. JONES: I understand, but we only have,
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1 right now, two historic districts --
2 MS. THOMAS: You're correct.
3 MR. JONES: -- that were approved by the
4 voters who reside in those districts, and that's
5 Springfield and Riverside/Avondale. And that's
6 why we included those two only, because of the
7 vote of the people who reside in those two
8 historic districts.
9 MS. THOMAS: I understand, but the council
10 passed the neighborhood action plans as well,
11 and those were extensive studies and the City
12 paid for them.
13 Thank you.
14 Any more questions? You want to take me
15 on? Come on.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you're free to go.
17 MS. THOMAS: All right. Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
19 Mr. Kelly, do you have a question for
20 Ms. Thomas?
21 MR. KELLY: No. I just wanted to elaborate
22 why in the historic districts that the -- the
23 transit shelters with the advertising are being
24 exempted out.
25 The zoning overlays that were adopted for
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1 those -- both those historic districts prohibit
2 internally-illuminated signs. So that is --
3 that's the underlying basis. There's a -- it's
4 not an arbitrary decision. It's actually been
5 codified prior to this.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Crescimbeni, you
7 have a question for Mr. Kelly?
8 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Chairman, no, not for
9 Mr. Kelly, but for Ms. Eller on this subject.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
11 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Through the Chair --
12 thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 Through the Chair to Ms. Eller. Ms. Eller,
14 I understand what Mr. Jones is saying, what
15 Mr. Kelly is saying, but is there any legal
16 prohibition to carving out other designated
17 areas in this ordinance?
18 That's really a yes or no question or -- I
19 mean, if a district councilman wanted to carve
20 out a -- any kind of designated neighborhood,
21 like one that had a community development plan
22 or a neighborhood action plan that had been
23 approved by this City Council, could that be
24 added to this ordinance?
25 MS. ELLER: No.
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1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And why not?
2 MR. JOOST: Wait. It was a yes or no.
3 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Oh, yeah. You're right.
4 I'll --
5 MS. ELLER: I'd be happy to elaborate if
6 the Chair --
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, Ms. Eller.
8 MS. ELLER: The proposed exclusions, as
9 have been indicated to me today and this
10 evening, is the Springfield zoning overlay,
11 which includes the Springfield historic
12 district, and the Riverside Avondale zoning
13 overlay, which includes the Riverside Avondale
14 historic district.
15 Those two areas, which are both a zoning
16 overlay adopted into Chapter 656, as well as
17 historic districts approved as required to be a
18 locally-designated historic district, and I
19 believe nationally too, although I -- I'm not
20 familiar on that component of it.
21 Those two areas, because of the
22 extraordinary efforts and the action by the City
23 Council to adopt those overlays and districts
24 into our ordinance code, lead me to the legal
25 conclusion that exempting them would be based
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1 upon a sound record by the fact that those areas
2 have been designated in your ordinance code by a
3 previous action of the City Council.
4 Other council members may make arguments
5 that a certain district may have a neighborhood
6 action plan or a community development plan, and
7 those are all very valid arguments. Whether or
8 not those would be successful, I can't predict.
9 Whether or not the overlay and the historic
10 district would be successful, as you've heard
11 other attorneys say to you, we don't know what a
12 judge would say.
13 I'll tell you that I'm most comfortable
14 with excluding overlays and historic districts
15 because of the extra step that they've gone
16 through, which is the local government adopting
17 these designated areas into the ordinance code.
18 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Ms. Eller.
19 And, Mr. Chairman, thank you.
20 I should have rephrased my question.
21 Sometimes you get the long answer, and I can't
22 tell at the end whether it was yes or no, so I
23 like those up front.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop, do you have a
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1 question for Ms. Eller?
2 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes,
3 I do.
4 Ms. Eller, I appreciate your explanation,
5 but at the end of all that explanation, is that
6 not really just your personal opinion?
7 MS. ELLER: No. It's the opinion given to
8 you as a representative of the Office of General
9 Counsel.
10 MR. BISHOP: So that's your legal opinion,
11 that the only way a neighborhood can be exempted
12 is if there's a zoning overlay over that
13 district?
14 MS. ELLER: I'd prefer to use my own words,
15 which was that I'm most comfortable with items
16 that are an overlay or a historic district
17 because of the extra step that has been taken by
18 the City Council.
19 As I stated before, you may argue that
20 another area would be equally as able to be
21 exempted because of an action plan or a
22 community development plan; however, I think
23 those areas would be subject to challenge and
24 would be at a greater risk because they don't
25 have the extra layer of data and analysis and
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1 background information that was needed in order
2 to adopt an overlay into the zoning code, create
3 a separate section in Chapter 656, or a historic
4 district which does have a requirement regarding
5 the age of the buildings, et cetera.
6 MR. BISHOP: What is so legally important
7 that it be a designated historic district or a
8 designated zoning overlay for purposes of this
9 bill?
10 MS. ELLER: The reason is that decisions by
11 local governments, when you're dealing in this
12 area of the zoning code, cannot be arbitrary.
13 They can't be seen as a willy-nilly decision.
14 And somebody who would want to challenge the
15 ordinance code might grasp onto that and say
16 that the decision by the City Council was
17 arbitrary and not related to any legitimate
18 government purpose, et cetera.
19 So your decision, in essence, could be
20 defended on the basis of having an overlay or a
21 historic district which is supported by data and
22 analysis. That would be the rationale, why it's
23 important to have that background.
24 MR. BISHOP: So a planning district vision
25 plan that is developed for purposes of
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1 generating a future land use map would not rise
2 to that level?
3 MS. ELLER: I don't know the answer to
4 that. As I stated before, I am most comfortable
5 with overlays and historic districts which have
6 been adopted by ordinance into the municipal
7 ordinance code as opposed to planning documents
8 which may be approved by this council but have
9 not been codified.
10 MR. BISHOP: Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you.
12 We have one more speaker, Ms. Ehas.
13 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Kay Ehas, 2322 Dellwood
15 Avenue, representing Riverside Avondale
16 Preservation.
17 I think that why Councilmen Jones, Gaffney,
18 and Corrigan stepped up and said let's exempt
19 the historic districts is because they
20 understand that when someone buys into a
21 national historic district, like Springfield and
22 Riverside Avondale, they do so knowing that
23 there is a higher cost to maintain their
24 properties and greater regulations on modifying
25 those properties.
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1 We also hope that with that comes greater
2 property values, and we think that over the --
3 since we've been a historic district that we
4 have seen greater property values.
5 The City of Jacksonville holds residents
6 and businesses to a particular standard for the
7 maintenance of the their property in these
8 historic districts, and historic districts are
9 protected by a Florida Statute that requires
10 local governments address how they will preserve
11 historic properties in their comprehensive
12 plan.
13 We also have a local ordinance. For us,
14 it's the Riverside Avondale design regulations
15 and a zoning overlay for the neighborhood. So
16 we've got kind of three different laws that
17 protect us.
18 If someone wants to put a large fountain in
19 their front yard, they have to get a certificate
20 of appropriateness, approval from the Historic
21 Preservation Commission. If somebody wants to
22 put a fireplace in their backyard and you can
23 see it from the front, from the street, they
24 have to get permission to do that.
25 So while we're not quite as strict as some
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1 homeowners associations, we do have requirements
2 when we live there, and we think that -- if you
3 look at our right-of-ways, they're very narrow.
4 We consider them our front yards. And
5 everywhere you go in the district, there is an
6 old house. Whether it's being used as a
7 commercial property or an office, it's an old
8 house with small front yards and small
9 right-of-ways. So there isn't any way that
10 these bus shelters, with ads, would not totally
11 ruin the ambience of that district, and so
12 that's why we request to be exempted from the
13 district [sic].
14 We hope over the next two years to put in
15 place a short- and long-term parking and traffic
16 management plan, and our priorities are
17 pedestrians, number one; bikes, number two; mass
18 transit, number three. We want bus shelters,
19 but we want them to fit into the district and we
20 don't want advertising on them.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
23 With that, we will close the public
24 hearing, unless someone has a speaker --
25 (Ms. Mansfield approaches the podium.)
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1 MS. MANSFIELD: Mr. Chairman.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have a question?
3 MR. BISHOP: I don't have a question, but I
4 would like to --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, let's close the
6 public hearing and --
7 MS. MANSFIELD: Mr. Chairman, I was
8 wondering if I could be indulged to use the
9 remaining minutes of my three minutes that I
10 didn't use before.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: No, ma'am. You've already
12 spoken.
13 Mr. Jones, did you have a question?
14 MR. JONES: No.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We will close
16 the public hearing, and I need somebody to move
17 the sub and then we'll get into our discussion.
18 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
19 MR. JONES: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and a
21 second on the sub.
22 Mr. Crescimbeni.
23 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Could I ask a couple of
24 the speakers a question?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
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1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 Mr. Arpen -- can I get Mr. Arpen to come
3 back up to the podium?
4 (Mr. Arpen approaches the podium.)
5 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Arpen --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Actually, Mr. Crescimbeni,
7 if we're going to get back into the meat of the
8 whole thing, can we hold off on those questions
9 until we've moved the bill? Let's --
10 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I thought we just moved
11 the bill.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: We moved the sub -- the
13 substitute.
14 Unless you have a question related to the
15 substitute -- which I anticipate we will have
16 questions on that.
17 Mr. Jones has a question on the substitute.
18 MR. JONES: Thank you.
19 Through the Chair to Ms. Eller, does the
20 substitute include the Riverside Avondale
21 historic district overlay and the Springfield
22 historic district overlay?
23 MS. ELLER: That was my question to the
24 group.
25 The substitute that I handed out did not
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1 include those restrict- -- those exemptions. So
2 if the substitute that you're moving would like
3 to include that, I just want to clarify on the
4 record that it would be that transit shelters
5 with advertising would not be permitted in the
6 Riverside Avondale overlay, which includes the
7 Riverside Avondale historic district, and the
8 Springfield zoning overlay, which includes the
9 Springfield historic district.
10 MR. JONES: All right. Mr. Chairman, if
11 it's fine, I can -- we would include that, or do
12 you want me to offer an amendment to include
13 that, but I would like to just --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller, is it proper for
15 us to amend the sub --
16 MR. DAVIS: I'll second it. I'm fine with
17 that.
18 MS. ELLER: You may incorporate it all into
19 the substitute if you prefer. It's at the
20 discretion of the Chair.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. But do we need to
22 provide -- I guess we'll include that into the
23 sub and then we'll be voting on the sub with the
24 exemptions for the two historic districts.
25 MS. ELLER: My only question, then, is that
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1 we previously had indicated that other locally-
2 or nationally-designated historic districts that
3 would come in would have the option to opt out,
4 so I wanted to confirm that that was still part
5 of the substitute.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. It was Mr. Jones'
7 sub, so he's -- he's asking that those things be
8 rolled into the sub.
9 MS. ELLER: Yes. The --
10 And just to clarify that, additionally, as
11 part of the proposed substitute, we had also
12 specifically said that a local or
13 nationally-designated historic district in the
14 future would have the opportunity to opt out of
15 having the transit shelters with advertising
16 because they would do so as part of their
17 approval process coming through the City
18 Council.
19 So I just wanted to clarify that.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: That's your intent?
21 MR. JONES: Through the Chair, that's
22 fine. I support that.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
24 All right. I believe Mr. Crescimbeni and
25 Mr. Bishop had questions.
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1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Chairman, I have
2 three questions about the substitute.
3 On page 8, Section 7, the severability
4 clause, does that specifically apply to 656 --
5 the downtown component and 656.133(3)?
6 MS. ELLER: Yes.
7 The intention is that it applied to all
8 parts of the ordinance code that are being
9 amended, and you'll see that it's also repeated
10 on page 3, under Section 326.
11 If that's not your understanding, I'll be
12 sure to codify it in all areas appropriate.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I don't have that
14 understanding, and -- so you're saying it does
15 have -- the severability and the repeal language
16 applies to the downtown component that was
17 created and the permitted signs in 656.133(3);
18 is that right?
19 MS. ELLER: The intention of the drafting
20 was to do so. If that is not clear in the
21 drafting, I believe the substitute that
22 Councilmember Jones directed us to draft was to
23 include the severability in all areas where it
24 would need to go.
25 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. You --
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1 MS. ELLER: It's under Section 326 and then
2 it's also under, I believe, 1303. If it doesn't
3 make sense that it's applicable to the other
4 component of 656, we can repeat it throughout.
5 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. I'd appreciate if
6 you'd take another look at that.
7 And then I have two other questions about
8 the substitute.
9 I heard some comments earlier tonight
10 about -- I think Mr. Jones mentioned that
11 shelters were only going to be placed at stops
12 that generated -- I think you said a ridership
13 of 25 or more, or 20?
14 MR. JONES: Twenty.
15 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Twenty.
16 What page is that language on?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I think Mr. Jones has an
18 answer to that question.
19 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I'm sorry.
20 Mr. Jones.
21 MS. ELLER: Through the Chair to
22 Councilmember Crescimbeni, my understanding --
23 and I'll allow Councilmember Jones to correct me
24 if I'm wrong -- is that on page 8, lines 20 and
25 21, there is a requirement that the JTA report
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1 each year to the City Council, and the report
2 must document the transit shelter construction
3 locations and provide a correlation based on
4 ridership demand and special needs. And my
5 understanding is that the ridership demand
6 currently is 20 riders.
7 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Is that subject to our
8 approval or they just file a report?
9 MS. ELLER: The language in the proposed
10 substitute is that they file a report. There is
11 no approval process in this sub.
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: So there's nothing
13 prohibiting them from putting them at stops that
14 generate less than 20 riders pursuant to the
15 ordinance, correct?
16 MS. ELLER: Not in this substitute.
17 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And then on the same
18 line -- I think I had asked this earlier and
19 maybe you can shed some light on it.
20 What about the 50 shelters a year for
21 15 years or up to 750 shelters, is that -- I
22 mean, is there any guarantee that we're going to
23 get that if we do this? Is that in the bill
24 anywhere?
25 MS. ELLER: I don't believe that is in the
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1 bill.
2 MR. CRESCIMBENI: All right. Thank you,
3 Ms. Eller.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I have Mr. Bishop and then
5 Mr. Davis.
6 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 Back to Ms. Eller again. I want to go back
8 to the discussion about overlays and zoning and
9 that sort of thing. Is it your opinion that the
10 only overlay that is allowable legally to be
11 included in this is a historic district
12 overlay?
13 MS. ELLER: No.
14 My opinion was that I'm most comfortable
15 with areas that have been adopted into the
16 ordinance code and have gone through the
17 additional steps of having data and analysis.
18 The two that have been proposed are the
19 Riverside Avondale overlay, which also happens
20 to include a historic district, or a -- or the
21 Springfield overlay, which happens to include a
22 historic district.
23 There is a section in our zoning code that
24 has a laundry list of specific overlays. One of
25 them is also the downtown overlay. The downtown
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1 overlay has its own sign section, and you'll see
2 in the proposed substitute that the Downtown
3 Design Review Board and the JEDC have negotiated
4 very specific limitations for the downtown
5 overlay.
6 So there is, I believe, other overlays that
7 are in the zoning code that may qualify or may
8 be defensible, if you will. But for the
9 purposes of this evening, the two that have been
10 brought before and that are part of this
11 substitute are the two mentioned.
12 MR. BISHOP: Okay. More specifically, the
13 Lake Marco zoning overlay and the Mandarin Road
14 zoning overlay, both of which were done for
15 neighborhood character preservation purposes,
16 I'm -- I obviously don't represent those, but
17 would it be your opinion that if those council
18 members or representatives of those areas wished
19 to have those neighborhoods included or those
20 zoning overlay districts included in this bill
21 that it would be legally defensible to do so?
22 MS. ELLER: I think it would be; however,
23 my concern is that the two overlays that have
24 been mentioned tonight, as Mr. Kelly mentioned,
25 both specifically addressed signage and the
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1 illumination of signage, and the proposed
2 transit shelters were going to include
3 illuminated signage.
4 So I think when you go into the level and
5 the layers of the Lake Marco overlay and the
6 Mandarin Road overlay -- I'm not familiar enough
7 with those to know if that signage component was
8 such a critical part, however -- I mean, again,
9 like I had mentioned before, we don't -- we
10 don't know what would be defensible, what
11 wouldn't. I'm most comfortable with things that
12 have taken that extra step and have been adopted
13 into the ordinance code.
14 So if a council member for that district
15 wanted to offer it, my advice to the full
16 council would be the same. I think you're in a
17 position to defend it because you've taken the
18 extra step of identifying these areas as
19 important areas with specific characteristics.
20 Riverside, Springfield, I think you're on firmer
21 ground because in those two districts they
22 specifically address the idea of sign
23 illumination within the district and how sign
24 illumination is incompatible.
25 Lake Marco, San Marco overlay, I believe
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1 there was -- I don't know if there was signage.
2 I know there was a lot to do with setbacks.
3 Mandarin Road, there were two -- one having
4 to do with density and one having to do with
5 commercial height along the corridor.
6 So I'm not quite sure those -- we'd be in
7 as good a position for those two. But again --
8 as I stated before.
9 MR. BISHOP: Okay.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis.
11 MR. DAVIS: I guess I have a question for
12 Mr. Blaylock and then maybe for JTA's General
13 Counsel.
14 (Mr. Blaylock approaches the podium.)
15 MR. DAVIS: Mr. Blaylock, on average, how
16 far apart are your bus stops?
17 MR. BLAYLOCK: Let's see. They're probably
18 every four blocks, roughly four blocks,
19 depending on the corridor.
20 MR. DAVIS: And is that in the downtown
21 area or is that --
22 MR. BLAYLOCK: No. It's a lot closer
23 downtown. It's much closer downtown. I'm just
24 talking about in the suburban areas, I think
25 it's -- about four blocks might be a good
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1 average.
2 MR. DAVIS: Okay. And then to Mr. Cohen.
3 (Mr. Cohen approaches the podium.)
4 MR. DAVIS: We've heard a lot of legal
5 jargon. At the risk of having attorneys do what
6 they do, what is the position and why do you
7 believe this is okay legally for JTA to pursue
8 this direction?
9 MR. COHEN: Thank you, Councilman Davis.
10 I don't want to get into a long debate
11 about this because I know everybody is tired.
12 I'm going to try to make this as --
13 MR. DAVIS: I don't want you to get into a
14 long debate either.
15 MR. COHEN: I'm going to try to make it as
16 simple as I possibly can.
17 The federal courts that have looked at this
18 issue have done what federal courts generally
19 do. They look at a balancing test. They look
20 at why did the government create the ban in the
21 first place, what were the fundamental public
22 objectives they were trying to achieve with the
23 ban.
24 And then in the cases that talk about signs
25 on transit shelters, like the case out of
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1 San Diego, the Supreme Court case that upheld
2 San Diego's adjustment to their commercial sign
3 ordinance for the transit shelter ads, the
4 courts look at the balancing of other competing
5 public needs, like the need of the public to
6 have covered shelters.
7 And where those -- where the courts have
8 found that the -- that the governing bodies of
9 the communities have taken into account those
10 competing needs and come to their own
11 legislative determination as to what the weights
12 should be applied to those competing needs are,
13 the courts leave those communities alone.
14 That's why the San Diego ordinance on the
15 commercial side was upheld. It was overturned
16 because they also banned noncommercial signs,
17 which Jacksonville does not do.
18 That's why the Ninth Circuit Court upheld
19 the Los Angeles case, where, in my opinion of
20 relatively aggressive [sic], Los Angeles
21 exemption for not only transit shelters but
22 trash cans, benches, telephones, public
23 bathrooms, kiosks -- which was the big one that
24 the trial court focused on, Councilman.
25 A kiosk is nothing but a small billboard.
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1 It is nothing but. It doesn't serve any other
2 purpose. It doesn't create a transit shelter.
3 It doesn't create anything over your head. It's
4 not a telephone. It's not a public convenience
5 for a rest room. It's nothing. It's just a --
6 it's just a platform to put a sign on. The
7 trial court said, you've got to be kidding me.
8 You could not have reasonably balanced those
9 competing public goods and come up with this
10 scheme. That's what the trial court said.
11 The Ninth Circuit, looking at the opinion
12 again, looking at the same again said, no, no.
13 We're not even going to get into the weeds that
14 far. We are going to step back. If the
15 governing body has determined that street
16 furniture is what it wants, then street
17 furniture is what it will get. And if it needs
18 to do that by putting signs on it to pay for it,
19 that's fine with us.
20 As Mr. Arpen said, that case is on appeal
21 to the Supreme Court. I don't know which way
22 that one will come out. What I do know is
23 this -- and to your point -- what Jacksonville
24 is doing here is nothing like what Los Angeles
25 did in the Metro Lights case. It is a very
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1 limited exception. You've got one or two
2 others, including the one for the -- for the
3 entertainment zone, and you are well within the
4 San Diego case.
5 And that's our -- and that's our view on
6 it.
7 MR. DAVIS: All right. Thank you very
8 much.
9 I've got to tell you, I've looked at this.
10 Obviously, I put my name on the bill. I feel
11 like the public purpose here is sufficient for
12 me to continue to support it. And I'd support
13 the exemption for the overlay areas because
14 clearly in historic areas there are prohibitions
15 that we have all agreed to and I think the
16 communities agreed to, so I can justify my vote.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Cohen, could you come
18 back up?
19 (Mr. Cohen approaches the podium.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Something that you said in
21 answering Mr. Davis' question made me want to
22 ask you a question.
23 What separates our situation here from the
24 Metro Lights situation?
25 MR. COHEN: Thank you, Councilman Holt.
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1 In the Metro Lights situation, again, LA
2 had a very unusual circumstance. Los Angeles
3 used to not have a billboard ban. They had a
4 contract with somebody to provide -- I think it
5 was -- it may have been transit shelter ads or
6 some other kind of ad, and they were making
7 about $700,000 a year, plus or minus, from
8 that -- from that effort.
9 What the trial court intimated -- they
10 didn't come right out and say it, but they got
11 very close -- was LA decided to enact a ban, all
12 off-site signs were banned, in order to go out
13 and issue a contract for a street furniture --
14 to a street furniture vendor. And now they're
15 receiving millions of dollars in revenue because
16 they have this very expensive street furniture
17 program under which the vendor keeps paying them
18 more and more money every time they put a trash
19 receptacle on the sidewalk or every time they
20 put a public bathroom up or every time they put
21 up a kiosk.
22 The difference in Jacksonville is you are
23 looking solely at the balancing of two competing
24 public interests. You definitely want to
25 preserve the visual pollution ban that was
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1 enacted in 1987. You clearly are expressing
2 your interest in protecting that to the extent
3 possible, but at the same time you're
4 recognizing that the transit-dependent public
5 are entitled to a place to wait for a bus out of
6 the rain and out of the heat. And those two
7 couldn't be more different on the facts. And,
8 again, there was a Supreme Court case in 1981
9 out of San Diego that says that's okay.
10 There's another case in New York, district
11 court case in 2008 or 2009 -- I think it was
12 just decided in March of this year; I'll look it
13 up for you in just a second -- where the
14 New York District Court looked exactly at those
15 cases. They looked at the San Diego case, which
16 is binding precedent because it's a Supreme
17 Court case, but they also carefully examined,
18 word for word, the Los Angeles decision. And
19 the New York District Court said, we don't even
20 have to look at the LA case because in that case
21 there were a lot of exemptions. And the trial
22 court held against -- found against LA, but
23 the -- but the Ninth Circuit held in their
24 favor.
25 So even if we were to look at that, even if
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1 we were to look at that, which is much more
2 egregious -- aggressive than what New York's
3 ordinance was doing, even if we looked at that,
4 we'd go, okay, we look at the San Diego case
5 and we find that New York is on all fours with
6 San Diego, and so the trial court in New York
7 upheld New York's exception to their off-site
8 billboard ban.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
10 Mr. Jones.
11 MR. JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 Through the Chair to Mr. Blaylock -- I
13 don't know who wants to answer this.
14 One issue that has come up time and time
15 again is this $72 million slush fund you have
16 over there to -- to take trips all over the
17 world and -- can you explain why that's there
18 and -- and explain the purpose of that
19 $72 million, if that's a real number or
20 that's -- have those dollars already been
21 committed to some other project?
22 (Mr. Blaylock approaches the podium.)
23 MR. BLAYLOCK: I was hoping it would be a
24 bonus for me, but that's not the case.
25 Through the Chair, I think that was
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1 reported as part of our June 2009 financial
2 statement at that point in time -- June 30th.
3 And, quite frankly, this is the way it works:
4 We reported $72 million, of which we have a
5 required reserve. And when you consider the
6 reserves that are required by the Authority,
7 operating reserves, emergency reserves,
8 right-of-way reserves, it comes to be --
9 including our working capital, it's about
10 $48 million.
11 The challenge that this Authority has,
12 quite frankly, is that we have about half a
13 billion dollars of unfunded projects by way of
14 the Better Jacksonville program.
15 Our reserve funds are not reoccurring
16 funds. Currently -- we prepared a budget, we
17 submitted a budget to this body with a reduction
18 in our budget from last year by 9.3 percent --
19 8.7 percent, not 3 percent, but 9.3 percent
20 reduction in our budget that we submitted to the
21 council this year because of the recognition
22 that our sales and gas tax was far below of what
23 it was at this time last year.
24 So we're going into a budget year
25 potentially where we may not even meet that
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1 budget in terms of our revenue streams. So at
2 the end of the day, by the time we cover for our
3 operating reserves, you're really not talking
4 about a whole lot of money.
5 And, more importantly -- and I know this is
6 not the time to have that discussion, but
7 when -- when the local (inaudible) from gas tax
8 ends in 2016, we've got another huge problem
9 where there's going to be another $29 million
10 that's going to be taken out if that's not
11 extended.
12 So, like any business, you have to have
13 funds to operate and to cover, so -- I also had
14 included in your handout an actual breakdown in
15 terms of what that number represents so you can
16 refer to it, but, no, we're not sitting on a
17 slush fund.
18 (Mr. Jones assumes the chair.)
19 MR. JONES: Okay. And Mr. Jones had
20 another question before he took the chair, and
21 that was -- the question was raised about the
22 economic stimulus and why you didn't go after --
23 or did you go after those dollars and what was
24 the purpose behind the grant application.
25 MR. BLAYLOCK: I heard of the case that was
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1 mentioned previously, that Albuquerque, as a
2 part of this stimulus, included an acquisition
3 of 500 bus shelters. The other side of that 500
4 bus shelter procurement, they're going to --
5 they are allowing advertising on those shelters
6 as a way to pay for the maintenance costs, and
7 that's -- that's the deal.
8 So what we have done -- I was asked the
9 other day how many shelters were in place when I
10 took over as executive director. It was about
11 150, because I do recognize that it's a part of
12 our core business, but the cost of maintaining
13 and servicing those units have gone up
14 appreciably in terms of the more we add, the
15 more the cost goes up, in addition to fuel costs
16 and maintenance costs.
17 In addition to that, when I came on board,
18 we only had, literally, a one-man crew that was
19 maintaining the shelters. I now have a four- --
20 two -- four persons -- I have four persons that
21 are working to maintain those shelters, in
22 addition to contracted services in order to
23 maintain those shelters in this community.
24 So, I mean, we have made significant
25 investments. We have program dollars in our
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1 budget for shelters, but in addition to that, we
2 also have programmed monies for what we call our
3 super stops that we would still have to
4 maintain. That's the Gateway location, that's
5 the Regency location, and your Avenues Mall
6 location that we're talking about putting
7 shelters in.
8 So our passenger amenities program is much
9 bigger than just -- you know, just putting
10 shelters in. There's more -- there's other
11 things that is attached to that.
12 MR. JONES: Okay. Did you apply for
13 economic stimulus dollars? And if you did, what
14 was -- what were they used for?
15 MR. BLAYLOCK: To purchase buses, to
16 purchase equipment --
17 MR. JONES: So you did apply?
18 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir.
19 MR. JONES: Okay.
20 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir. We did get it,
21 yes, sir.
22 MR. JONES: Mr. Crescimbeni and then
23 Mr. Bishop.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Vice
25 Chairman.
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1 Through the Chair to Mr. Blaylock, if
2 2009-401 is approved, how long will it take you
3 to ramp up -- I guess you're going to have to do
4 an RFP and stuff. What kind of timetable are we
5 talking about?
6 MR. BLAYLOCK: I would say probably before
7 you see the first shelter in terms of the
8 procurement process, the construction of the
9 units, placement and permitting in some areas,
10 you would probably see your first shelter
11 probably in nine months.
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: In nine months?
13 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir.
14 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. And you said
15 earlier that you're going to continue to build
16 shelters as an Authority, not with advertising;
17 is that correct?
18 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir, that's correct.
19 MR. CRESCIMBENI: If --
20 MR. BLAYLOCK: This program is just to try
21 to accelerate the --
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I understand.
23 MR. BLAYLOCK: Yes, sir.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: If the City Council were
25 to come up with some funds for a maintenance
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1 trust fund for JTA and we could identify some
2 sort of -- I mean, a revenue stream -- and you
3 and I have talked about littering citations
4 feeding that maintenance fund -- is that
5 something that the JTA could be possibly
6 interested in in lieu of shelters with
7 advertising?
8 MR. BLAYLOCK: Okay. Let me -- let me
9 frame it this way: In consideration of what our
10 customers have asked for in terms of more
11 shelters, in consideration Mr. Jones' bill,
12 which he's been pretty adamant about getting
13 more shelters out, and in consideration of the
14 other ten councilpersons who have signed on --
15 what you're really saying, you want more
16 shelters out as quickly as possible.
17 If there is, in fact, a dedicated, defined
18 source of revenue to maintain those shelters, a
19 reoccurring revenue, a revenue that is reflected
20 on the number of units that we install -- so if
21 I'm spending $400,000 today and that cost goes
22 up $100,000 next year, as long as that fund is
23 dedicated specifically to that -- reoccurring,
24 without any hassles or any strings attached,
25 yes, sir, I think that's more than a -- a
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1 consideration.
2 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay.
3 MR. BLAYLOCK: I think I would be falling
4 within the purview of what this body is -- the
5 council has signed on to.
6 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Blaylock.
7 You know, Mr. Jones and I, it may seem like
8 we're on different pages, but we're really not.
9 I mean, I want as many -- I want shelters out
10 because we need them for our riders. We just
11 have a philosophical difference of how to get
12 there.
13 If it's going to take you nine months to
14 get this thing rolled out, could you live with
15 an effective date -- if the council approves
16 this Tuesday night, could you live with an
17 effective date that would be four months out in
18 an attempt to -- for this council to visit the
19 issue of trying to set up the kind of trust fund
20 that I'm talking about?
21 That would only be half -- not quite half
22 of what you're saying you need to roll this
23 out. So, in other words, this wouldn't become
24 effective until, let's say, January 31st.
25 Could you live with that?
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1 MR. BLAYLOCK: Okay. Let me confer with my
2 counsel, and let me tell you why, because when
3 the JTA was asked to take over the service for
4 the disabled, basically we were promised that
5 we're going to get the monies, and we're
6 spending now a heck of a lot more in terms of
7 that particular program that we accepted from
8 the City, so let me see how to frame this.
9 Hold on just a second.
10 (Mr. Blaylock confers with Mr. Cohen.)
11 (Mr. Holt resumes the chair.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: After this question, we're
13 going to take a short break.
14 MR. BLAYLOCK: Well, I'm going to stick to
15 this, that in terms of -- it will take me about
16 nine months to see the first shelter out, and I
17 really would like to keep the movement going
18 forward, so would you frame what I need to --
19 (Mr. Blaylock confers with Mr. Cohen.)
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Cohen, do you
21 understand my question?
22 MR. COHEN: Yes, sir. Thank you,
23 Councilman Crescimbeni. I apologize for the
24 delay.
25 What Mr. Blaylock and I were discussing,
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1 the process that's involved in doing this, as --
2 as y'all well know from the City's own
3 procurement process, we first draft and put an
4 RFP out on the street. And that -- in order to
5 release that RFP, we need to have -- and get any
6 kind of response at all, we need to have an
7 ordinance that's in place that would allow the
8 vendor to know that he's going to -- when he
9 spends his money to reply to the RFP, that he's
10 actually, theoretically, going to get a
11 contract.
12 We don't release an RFP on the -- with the
13 theory that, well, let's just see what kind of
14 bids we get. And if we don't like them, we'll
15 throw them all out. It's expensive for bidders
16 to do that, so we take that part of the process
17 quite seriously.
18 As Mr. Blaylock indicated a few minutes
19 ago, it will take probably 60 days to get that
20 RFP on the street. So delaying the
21 effectiveness of this bill for a 60-day period
22 while we're trying to get an RFP together I
23 don't think would interrupt Mr. Blaylock's
24 intent to get shelters on the street within nine
25 months.
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1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay.
2 MR. COHEN: And I hope that answers your
3 question --
4 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I think it does.
5 And one final question for you, sir, since
6 you're at the podium. We talked a lot about
7 litigation risk and you were commenting to -- or
8 following up on some questions to Mr. Davis.
9 Do you have a pretty good comfort level,
10 then, that -- with the severability clause and
11 all the litigation that you've referred to in
12 San Diego and the U.S. Supreme Court case, do
13 you feel like we're -- the City. Now, it's our
14 sign code. It doesn't belong to JTA. It's our
15 charter amendment and it's our sign code. Do
16 you feel like we're on pretty good ground --
17 MR. COHEN: Councilman Crescimbeni, I do.
18 MR. CRESCIMBENI: -- as an attorney?
19 Okay.
20 MR. COHEN: Yes, sir, I do.
21 And I'd like to mention one other case, if
22 I would -- and I know everybody is sick of this.
23 A case out of Miami, straight on point on
24 the severability clause. It's called National
25 Advertising. The City of Miami amended their
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1 ordinance -- their sign ordinance. It was
2 challenged by National Advertising Company, an
3 outdoor sign company.
4 In the pendency of the lawsuit, the City of
5 Miami repealed their ordinance and undid what
6 was argued to be an unconstitutional provision.
7 The Eleventh Circuit, which is the circuit we
8 sit in, binding precedent, said we have
9 repeatedly -- and the Supreme Court of the
10 United States has repeatedly held that when a
11 challenge -- a constitutionally-challenged
12 ordinance is repealed, the lawsuit ends, it's
13 over, it's dead.
14 I have a very good confidence in what the
15 General Counsel's Office has done.
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Thank you, sir.
17 MR. BISHOP: Could I ask one --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Diane, are you okay?
19 THE REPORTER: Yes, I'm fine.
20 Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Her fingers are --
22 MR. BISHOP: This is a very short question.
23 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 This is for Mr. Blaylock. You may want to
25 consult with your counsel.
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1 If the council passes this ordinance, will
2 the JTA defend the City's ordinance if we're
3 sued and pay for it? Will you indemnify the
4 City against lawsuits challenging our sign
5 ordinance if this ordinance passes since you are
6 the beneficiary of this ordinance?
7 MR. BLAYLOCK: David, you want to --
8 MR. BISHOP: That should be a yes or no
9 question.
10 MR. BLAYLOCK: Well, I -- quite frankly, I
11 have to respect the fact that I work for a board
12 of directors, and this question has not been put
13 to them for them to take a vote, and I would not
14 want to speak without having that chance to --
15 (Mr. Cohen approaches the podium.)
16 MR. COHEN: Thank you, Mr. Blaylock.
17 Councilman Bishop, I appreciate the
18 question and I know it's one that you and I have
19 discussed off-line a couple of times too, so I
20 appreciate the opportunity to speak in front of
21 the entire committee.
22 As Mr. Blaylock said, this has not been
23 brought to the JTA board yet, so we don't have
24 their decision. And their decision binds, quite
25 frankly, both of us, most obviously. However, I
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1 would say this: What we have talked about in
2 some limited ways -- it's not indemnity, for
3 one -- for starters. It's an agreement to
4 assume the defense costs.
5 MR. BISHOP: That's a better explanation.
6 MR. COHEN: So, personally -- I would
7 personally be willing to advocate to the JTA
8 board that they consider such a thing. I would
9 personally be willing to do that, and I've told
10 you that privately as well, and I welcome the
11 opportunity to say it publicly. And I think
12 Mr. Blaylock would as well, but we have to be
13 sensitive to the fact that that's our governing
14 body and neither of us can speak for them and we
15 haven't been authorized to. That's one aspect.
16 And I want to take issue with one part of
17 your question, sir, and I don't mean any
18 disrespect. The people of the city of
19 Jacksonville benefit from this. There's a large
20 transit-dependent population in Jacksonville,
21 and that population is getting larger as this
22 population in Duval County ages. And it is for
23 them that JTA stands here, it is for them that
24 Councilman Jones brought this bill. And it
25 benefits JTA in the sense that it brings a
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1 private source of revenue in, freeing up tax
2 dollars that Michael gets that can be applied to
3 other transportation needs, and those needs are
4 significant.
5 So I appreciate the question very much, and
6 I hope I've given you an answer that's
7 acceptable for you.
8 MR. BISHOP: I expected the answer, quite
9 frankly. And so do I have a commitment from
10 you, Mr. Blaylock, to take this issue to your
11 board of directors for a yes or no vote? Will
12 the JTA assume defense costs for the City if
13 this ordinance passes and the City is sued
14 challenging our billboard ordinance?
15 MR. BLAYLOCK: I will put --
16 MR. BISHOP: That should be a yes or no
17 question.
18 MR. BLAYLOCK: I will put the question
19 before the board.
20 MR. BISHOP: All right. So, at the moment,
21 we don't know what answer will be?
22 MR. BLAYLOCK: No, sir.
23 MR. BISHOP: So we're still on the hook for
24 this thing.
25 Thank you.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
2 There's nobody else --
3 MR. DAVIS: If I could, Mr. Chairman, I
4 would like to call the question.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, there's nobody
6 on the -- but we'll go ahead and do that.
7 On the substitute, Mr. Davis has called the
8 question.
9 MR. JOOST: Second.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second
11 to call the question.
12 All in favor signify by saying aye.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: The question has been called
15 on the substitute.
16 Please open the ballot.
17 MS. ELLER: Voice vote.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: That's a voice vote. I'm
19 sorry.
20 All in favor of the substitute signify by
21 saying aye.
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. The sub passes.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Chairman --
25 (Simultaneous speaking.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a point of order?
2 Somebody said "point of order."
3 (Inaudible discussion.)
4 MR. JONES: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and a
6 second on the bill as substituted.
7 MR. DAVIS: (Inaudible.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this going to go on for a
9 little? Because I really need to give the
10 stenographer a break, Daniel.
11 MR. DAVIS: (Inaudible.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let's take a
13 five minute break, please. We've got another
14 bill.
15 Thank you.
16 (Brief recess.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Folks, we've all had
18 a little bit of a break and hopefully we'll get
19 through this in the next 15, 20 minutes.
20 MR. DAVIS: Did we move the bill?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We did. We moved and
22 seconded it, and now we had people raising their
23 hands.
24 Mr. Crescimbeni, then Mr. Bishop, or --
25 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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1 Through the Chair to Ms. Eller, going back
2 to the historic districts, you focused on the
3 fact that the -- the comfort level that you were
4 achieving for carving those two out was based on
5 the fact that the citizens had voted themselves
6 into this district, so to speak; and, secondly,
7 that the district prohibits backlit signs.
8 Did I understand your rationale there
9 correctly?
10 MS. ELLER: No.
11 MR. CRESCIMBENI: No? Okay.
12 Can you rephrase that, then? Tell me about
13 the part about the backlit signs. You kept
14 mentioning the backlit signs being prohibited.
15 MS. ELLER: My comfort level with the
16 overlay in Riverside, Avondale and in
17 Springfield is that -- not about the voters.
18 It's about the City Council hav- -- taking the
19 extra step of adopting those restrictions into a
20 zoning code overlay and then also adopting the
21 historic district itself, which did have voter
22 participation.
23 The issue regarding the illuminated signage
24 came into play when Councilmember Bishop asked
25 me to distinguish between the Riverside Avondale
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1 overlay and the Springfield overlay and other
2 overlays that are in our zoning code.
3 My answer to Councilmember Bishop was
4 that -- and any overlay adopted into the zoning
5 code gives me more comfort because the City
6 Council has taken the extra step of codifying
7 those specific areas into our code.
8 The idea of whether or not the Mandarin
9 overlay that he had mentioned or the Lake Marco
10 overlay in the San Marco area would be as
11 defensible, that's where the distinction between
12 the overlays themselves came into play, whereas
13 Sean Kelly had mentioned the historic areas had
14 some specific prohibitions regarding using
15 internal lighting on signs.
16 And I don't know about Lake Marco, but I do
17 know that in Mandarin, the Mandarin Road zoning
18 overlay addressed density and then the Mandarin
19 Road commercial overlay addressed, I believe,
20 the height of the commercial buildings.
21 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I just want to make sure
22 there's no possibility that -- if we carve those
23 historic districts out, there's no possibility
24 that there's some challenge brought by inserting
25 a bus shelter with signs that aren't backlit,
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1 and maybe we can talk about that, you know, at
2 some other time. I just want to make sure
3 there's no risk there, that nobody comes up and
4 says, "Well, hey, wait a minute. You know, we
5 could put the bus shelter in there, but just not
6 turn the sign on."
7 MS. ELLER: I understand your concern.
8 My understanding of the substitute that has
9 been approved by the LUZ Committee tonight is
10 that transit shelters with advertising, lit or
11 not lit, are prohibited in those two overlays.
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Well, I just was
13 concerned about somebody making an argument
14 based on the backlighting --
15 MS. ELLER: Confirmed.
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: -- component.
17 Okay. Thank you.
18 And I have one other question for
19 Mr. Arpen.
20 (Mr. Arpen approaches the podium.)
21 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Arpen, did you make a
22 presentation -- I think the DDRB voted to make
23 some amendments on the downtown language on this
24 bill. Did you speak at the DDRB meeting?
25 MR. ARPEN: No, I did not.
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1 In fact, I'll be sending something to the
2 council president asking that this bill be
3 deferred because I believe there's a due process
4 issue in that you actually had -- because they
5 shuffled around the Planning Commission agenda,
6 you actually had a situation where the DDRB was
7 taking up the bill at the same time that the
8 Planning Commission was taking up the bill. And
9 it's difficult, if not impossible, to be in two
10 places at one time.
11 So I think there's a fundamental right,
12 that if you're going to be heard on something,
13 you ought to have the right to be heard
14 everywhere it's going to be heard. And I think
15 the case was that -- because of when they took
16 the -- you know, the bill up out of order at the
17 Planning Commission and the length of time it
18 took, I could have probably spoken and then
19 left, but I wouldn't have been available for
20 questions or any kind of follow-up.
21 So I will be sending something to the
22 council president asking that the bill be
23 deferred and -- because there's a pending
24 request to the DDRB by those of us who would
25 have liked to have spoken who were not able to,
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1 that the -- that the DDRB rehear the issue as
2 well.
3 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Thank you,
4 Mr. Arpen.
5 Mr. Chairman, that completes my questions
6 if we're on the bill. I would just like to
7 suggest a couple of things if you'll take a
8 little debate from a noncommittee member.
9 The issues we're dealing with here are
10 on-site signs and off-site signs. There were
11 questions earlier in the evening about, you
12 know, charter amendment, sign code. An on-site
13 sign is a sign that advertises the business on
14 the property, or the product or the good or the
15 service. An off-site sign is a sign that
16 advertises a product or a good or a service that
17 has nothing to do with the property that the
18 sign is located on.
19 Our charter amendment prohibited off-site
20 signs. Our sign code deals with on-site
21 signage. Those were very contentious periods on
22 the council when we adopted both those things.
23 The citizens voted on the charter amendment
24 in '87. It didn't -- it had a five-year
25 amortization period. It didn't kick in until
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1 '92. And when it was about to kick in, as you
2 could imagine, all the sign -- all the off-site
3 sign owners filed litigation against the City
4 and the citizens that put it on the ballot.
5 They had a corporate umbrella called Cap Signs.
6 And there were several -- all those cases
7 got settled out of court. They allowed signs to
8 be up for a longer period of time, but that was
9 the give from the City. The take was that the
10 companies agreed to take down other signs that
11 would not have been affected by the charter
12 amendment.
13 So over 1,000 -- 1,000 billboards have been
14 removed from Duval County since those settlement
15 agreements went into effect in '93, '94, those
16 middle '90 years. And I think that's a lot of
17 risk to play poker with with this bill because
18 we're going to -- we have --
19 Mr. Cohen is saying he feels very
20 comfortable. I'm very good friends with
21 Mr. Bill Brinton. He is probably the most
22 renowned attorney in the United States that
23 deals with nothing but defending cities and
24 counties and townships against their sign
25 codes. He's defended Orange Park. He's
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1 defended Clay County. He's all over the country
2 all the time.
3 I would encourage this committee -- you
4 know, if you want to talk about -- if the JTA is
5 going to put our sign code at risk for this
6 simple little thing and we end up in litigation,
7 that's the City that gets to pay all those legal
8 bills, and I think at the very least we ought to
9 have an indemnification from -- or hold harmless
10 agreement from the JTA, and I just happen to
11 have one here tonight that I'll allow you to
12 take a gander at. It was drafted by Mr. Rohan.
13 It's very easy language --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: We're not going to go
15 through it, are we?
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: No. It's a one-page
17 thing. It's one paragraph. It's very simple.
18 And, you know, I can't move the -- I can't
19 move that as an amendment tonight, but I can
20 Tuesday night. But I think it's a very easy
21 thing to do that protects us because the JTA is
22 not going to defend our sign code. You know,
23 Ms. Eller and Ms. Laquidara and those folks are
24 going to defend it, and we'll probably have to
25 get outside counsel, like we're doing in the
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1 landfill case, to get the expertise, and that's
2 all going to be a tremendous expense to the
3 City.
4 The case in California, the Metro Lights
5 case has been ongoing since -- I believe it's
6 2003 when that litigation first got filed.
7 2003, six years of litigation to a state court,
8 the U.S. Ninth Circuit. And Mr. Cohen said that
9 it was on appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, not
10 quite. There's a writ filed to get the appeal,
11 but the Court hasn't accepted the process to
12 review the case yet. So if it goes there, bring
13 the cash register some more because that's the
14 cost that's going to be borne by that city and
15 potentially our city.
16 And I won't make a prediction. You know,
17 Mr. Miller talked about, I think, 25 companies
18 that are in this business. There are two major
19 players, Clear Channel Outdoor and Lamar. One
20 of those companies has an office here in
21 Jacksonville that does nothing but this kind of
22 business in other places.
23 Whoever gets the contract is going to be a
24 happy camper. The problem is with the company
25 that doesn't get the contract. And, mark my
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1 words, those are the people that are going to
2 sue the City. The loser is going to sue the
3 City, and it's going to be one of those two
4 companies.
5 And that's the risk we face. That's the
6 risk we face of losing all the hard work that's
7 been accomplished since 1987, that 18,000
8 citizens signed petitions for, the electorate
9 overwhelmingly voted. That's all -- that's what
10 we're putting out on the table.
11 I would encourage this committee to think
12 long and hard about that, and at the very least
13 incorporate some fiscal protection on the JTA
14 reimbursing the City for any legal expenses we
15 incur, if we incur them.
16 Now, maybe Mr. Cohen is right. Mr. Cohen
17 says he's very comfortable. I would think if
18 they're very comfortable, they wouldn't have a
19 problem signing on to that -- that support.
20 Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
22 Mr. Bishop.
23 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 Mr. Crescimbeni mentioned a number of
25 things, and I won't duplicate many of them
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1 because I was going to touch on some of those
2 myself, but just -- to summarize one very
3 important point, for over 20 years Jacksonville
4 has been a model around the country for
5 eliminating sign clutter, billboards, and other
6 visual blight. Our ordinance is looked at as a
7 model nationwide. This ordinance, as it's
8 currently constituted, starts to undermine
9 that.
10 We have to be very careful what we're doing
11 here. We all want the same thing. We all want
12 bus shelters, we all want transit, we all want
13 that. And, Lord knows -- Mike Miller will tell
14 you this, I -- there isn't any bigger advocate
15 on the council for helping them get transit in
16 this city than I am. This is not the way to do
17 it.
18 With respect to the discussion that was
19 held earlier about this reserve account that JTA
20 has, it is an indisputable fact that as of the
21 end of June -- and that's the last numbers I've
22 seen -- there was $72 million in their bank
23 account. They have lots of reasons why they do
24 what they do, but the fact of the matter is that
25 money is only encumbered by board policy.
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1 There's no legal requirement, there's no
2 encumbrances on it, there's nothing keeping them
3 from spending that money on anything that they
4 want to.
5 There's another little piece of that puzzle
6 that I don't know if anybody really realized,
7 that $65 million of that money that's in that
8 bank account has been paid for by the citizens
9 of Jacksonville under the Better Jacksonville
10 taxing plan.
11 At the same time that we just passed
12 $300 million in bonding for road projects that
13 are not completed and those currently in
14 design -- we had to do that because there wasn't
15 enough money. Sixty-five million dollars is
16 sitting in their bank account, and it will not
17 go anywhere unless they decide to do something
18 about it.
19 That's a little bit of a side issue, but to
20 say there's not enough money to fund shelters
21 and fund -- and shelter maintenance is not
22 exactly true. There is a way to do it. They
23 have the resources to get it done.
24 The side event of getting this legislation
25 passed is, yeah, we get shelters, but make no
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1 mistake, the purpose for this is to sell
2 advertising. The advertising companies don't do
3 this because they're in the public service
4 business of providing transit shelters. They're
5 in the business of selling advertising space.
6 Their number one priority of placing shelters is
7 where the most vehicle drivers will see those
8 signs. Their number one concern is not where
9 transit riders need them, but where will vehicle
10 drivers see the signs. There's a big
11 distinction there because that does go to safety
12 and it does go to what sort of obstructions and
13 visual clutter are out there on the roads from a
14 safety standpoint.
15 They want people to watch these things when
16 people should be looking at the road, not
17 looking at taco ads on the side of the street.
18 They want you to watch those signs when you
19 drive down the road. That's a real safety
20 problem.
21 And for these reasons alone, that should be
22 enough to give everybody pause that -- is this
23 really the right way to do it? In the best
24 interest, the long-term interest of the city, is
25 this the right way to do this? I don't believe
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1 it is. And I think if you think long and hard
2 about it, I'm hoping that some of this stuff
3 will cause you to take pause for a minute, not
4 to kill the whole -- kill everything, but to
5 take a step back and seriously look at these
6 very real legal issues because if JTA goes --
7 Mr. Blaylock says he'll take it to the
8 board. If the board comes back and says, now
9 we're not interested, by that time, we've
10 already passed this thing and we're stuck with
11 it. They're not.
12 And, yes, the citizens of this city
13 generate a benefit from the bus shelters, but
14 they do own the -- they own the system. There's
15 only one ongoing mission that JTA has, and
16 that's running a bus system. They build roads,
17 they do a lot of things, but those are
18 project-based activities. Those are not ongoing
19 activities. Their one continuing obligation is
20 to run a bus system, and transit shelters are an
21 integral component of running a
22 properly-operated bus system.
23 Mr. Blaylock is to be commended for the
24 amount of effort that he has done in his seven
25 years of running the JTA, increasing the number
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1 of shelters, but there's still a long way to
2 go.
3 Their number one priority is -- should be
4 to run a bus system. They have the money to do
5 it, and all I'm asking is to take a little
6 bit -- even if it means just deferring it for a
7 little bit, but it's all part of the bigger
8 picture of how Jacksonville wants to run transit
9 and transportation.
10 Don't be fooled by the quick-fix. It is
11 going to have repercussions down the road that
12 we're going to all regret, and I'm strongly
13 urging everybody to seriously think about that
14 before you vote on this issue.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones.
17 MR. JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 I appreciate this opportunity to speak to a
19 bill that I feel very close to.
20 The bill was introduced -- the original
21 bill, authored by Art Shad, was introduced in
22 2005. I got on the council in 2007 and said,
23 well, you know, it seems like the two sides can
24 come together, let me work something out. And I
25 thought it would be a very simple process of
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1 bringing Mr. Brinton to the table, JTA, and
2 (inaudible) -- John Crescimbeni was in the
3 meeting, and we tried to work things out, and I
4 found out how complicated it was.
5 I worked with Ms. Eller and we decided to
6 withdraw the Art Shad bill and start over again
7 because of some legal court decisions that were
8 being considered at the time, and Ms. Eller got
9 us through this process and got us to the point
10 where the General Counsel's Office, our attorney
11 feels that we can defend this bill and it will
12 not undo our sign ordinance.
13 Mr. Brinton, I respect him. He's probably
14 the foremost expert in this area, but every
15 attorney has an opinion. And the JTA's Office
16 of General Counsel and our General Counsel's
17 Office both believe that this will not undo our
18 billboard or sign ordinance. I trust that
19 opinion.
20 And anything we do is subject to
21 litigation. Anything we do is subject to
22 litigation. My friends on the other side, the
23 Cap Signs folks and the City of Jacksonville
24 folks, for five years, since 2005, have opposed
25 this legislation, but no one, no one has come up
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1 with an alternative for funding bus shelters in
2 Jacksonville.
3 No one, not one person in this room
4 tonight, I dare say, took a bus to get here.
5 We're fortunate, we're blessed that we do not
6 have to depend on public transportation to get
7 to the doctor, to get to the grocery store, to
8 get home, to get to work. We're not that
9 dependent on it, but yet we're asked to make a
10 decision.
11 And we kind of ignore the people who ride
12 the public transportation system. They become
13 part of the landscape. We just pass them by,
14 the lady holding an umbrella with a bag of
15 groceries waiting on -- in the rain for a bus to
16 come by, the kids waiting to go to the library
17 or wherever they might be going. We pass them
18 by. That's the tragedy on this community.
19 We should -- yes, we have a model sign
20 ordinance and we should have a model
21 transportation system that values the people who
22 live and depend on mass transportation in
23 Jacksonville. That's dear and near to me, and I
24 think this is the best way we can do it.
25 We've worked with the council auditor's
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1 office. We worked with the Planning
2 Department. They've done a good job of getting
3 us -- getting the two sides together because to
4 begin with, the JTA and the Planning Department
5 were not on the same page. It took a lot of
6 work to make sure that we protected our
7 residential communities from the visual
8 pollution that many of us are concerned with.
9 We protected the residential communities. We've
10 now protected the historic districts.
11 I think we have enough protections in place
12 where our bill will withstand any legal
13 challenges that may or may not come. I don't
14 think they will come. I think we're in good
15 legal standing, and I think we need to put just
16 as much value on the people who are
17 transportation-dependent as we are on preventing
18 visual pollution in our communities.
19 I would ask you to support the bill, and I
20 appreciate your consideration.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis.
23 MR. DAVIS: I'd like to call the question.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: The question has been
25 called. It's nondebatable.
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1 All in favor of calling the question
2 signify by saying aye.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: The question has been
5 called.
6 On the bill as substituted, please open the
7 ballot.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
13 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
16 (Committee ballot closed.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
18 the vote.
19 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
21 passed -401 as substituted.
22 MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chair.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. Davis.
24 MR. DAVIS: I think that there -- just as
25 the Chair -- there's a legitimate question as to
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1 if JTA will step up because I know they're --
2 we're kind of all on the same team, and this is
3 going to help their end goal, and I'd like to
4 see what kind of answers we could get prior to
5 Tuesday night because I know boards can be
6 brought together and sentiments can be made, but
7 those are some legitimate questions about
8 possible coverage as far as the legal
9 ramifications go.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I would definitely encourage
11 the folks with the JTA and -- both sides to work
12 on that because some very good points were
13 brought out. Mr. Duggan made some very good
14 points.
15 Mr. Jones, and then we need to get on to
16 the next bill.
17 MR. JONES: Sure. Thank you.
18 Through the Chair to Mr. Davis, I have
19 worked with Mr. Cohen, and we will be sponsoring
20 an amendment that will indemnify the City to a
21 limit on the -- any challenges, and I'll get a
22 copy -- Mr. Cohen, if you will give all the
23 committee members and the council a copy of that
24 amendment, and to Ms. Eller, so we can consider
25 that Tuesday night.
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1 MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.
2 MR. JONES: Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent. We look forward
4 to it.
5 All right. Now, let's go on to 2009-402.
6 I need a motion and second on the bill.
7 MR. JOOST: Move it.
8 MR. DAVIS: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on -402.
10 Mr. Jones, are you still up from the last
11 one?
12 (Inaudible discussion.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, Mr. Davis.
14 MR. DAVIS: Maybe to -- the author is
15 Mr. Crescimbeni, correct?
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Inaudible.)
17 MR. DAVIS: No, -402. We just moved -402.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: We're on -402.
19 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Inaudible.)
20 MR. DAVIS: I guess this flies in the face
21 of the last vote, but is there an attempt to
22 remove the transit shelter from this bill and
23 include -- I wouldn't have a problem with that.
24 As far as the public purpose goes with the
25 transit shelters, I supported that, but I don't
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1 have a problem with removing that portion and
2 looking at the rest of this.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that an amendment?
4 MR. REDMAN: I'll second that.
5 MR. DAVIS: Okay.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and a
7 second, an amendment to remove the transit
8 shelters from this bill and only prohibit
9 advertising on public pay phones.
10 Any discussion on that? Any discussion on
11 the amendment?
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. All in favor of that
14 amendment signify by saying aye.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
17 DR. GAFFNEY: Move the bill as amended.
18 MR. JOOST: Second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and a second
20 on the bill as amended.
21 Mr. Jones and then Mr. Gaffney.
22 MR. JONES: (Inaudible.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: You're good? Okay.
24 Mr. Gaffney.
25 DR. GAFFNEY: Just a quick question.
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1 Now, when we say on pay phones, are we
2 talking about the big booth or just --
3 MR. DAVIS: (Inaudible.)
4 DR. GAFFNEY: Okay.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I would imagine that means
6 anything, but maybe Ms. Eller should --
7 DR. GAFFNEY: I'll defer to the -- to
8 Councilman Crescimbeni.
9 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 Through the Chair to Dr. Gaffney, the
11 Florida Legislature created a little window in
12 the recent legislative session to allow for up
13 to eight square feet of advertising on phone
14 booths.
15 The downtown -- I think it was -- was it
16 the JEDC? I think the JEDC took up this issue
17 and passed some regulations with regard to -- I
18 think we voted on them as a body. This is kind
19 of a follow-up to that, but it would apply to
20 the rest of the county.
21 Now, I think Mr. Bishop mentioned it
22 earlier. You think, well, gosh, you know,
23 there's not many phone booths out there left in
24 the world. Everybody has got cell phones, so
25 what's the big deal? Well, the big deal is,
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1 this isn't about phones, it's about
2 advertising.
3 So believe you me, these companies will
4 spring for the 20 bucks for the phone line to
5 put up an ad up to eight square feet that will
6 generate 150 bucks a month for them, so this
7 just kind of gives the same protection to the
8 rest of the county that -- what JEDC kind of did
9 for themselves in the downtown area.
10 MR. JONES: (Inaudible.)
11 (Inaudible discussion.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We have a motion
13 and second, no speakers.
14 Please open the ballot.
15 (Committee ballot opened.)
16 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
19 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
22 (Committee ballot closed.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
24 the vote.
25 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
2 passed -402 as amended.
3 And I believe that is everything we have
4 for tonight, folks, unless somebody can point
5 something else out to me.
6 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: We are adjourned.
8 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
9 7:51 p.m.)
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3 STATE OF FLORIDA:
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
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6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 11th day of October, 2009.
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