1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, June 16, 2009,
7 commencing at 5:09 p.m., City Hall, Council Chambers,
8 1st Floor,
9 Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of
10
11
12 PRESENT:
13 ART GRAHAM, Chair.
STEPHEN JOOST, Vice Chair.
14 REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
RAY HOLT, Committee Member.
15 JACK WEBB, Committee Member.
DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
16
17 ALSO PRESENT:
18 CLAY YARBOROUGH, City Council Member.
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
19 SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
JOEL McEACHIN, Planning and Development Dept.
20 GARY KRESEL, Planning and Development Dept.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
21 JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.
22 CHERRY SHAW, Office of General Counsel.
RICK CAMPBELL, Research Assistant.
23 MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
24
- - -
25
Diane M. Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 June 16, 2009 5:09 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everyone.
5 I have to apologize for us not starting on
6 time. I've got 5:09, and it is Thursday --
7 Tuesday, June 16th, and this is the Land Use and
8 Zoning Committee.
9 And if we can start over here on my right,
10 Mr. Crofts, let's introduce ourselves.
11 MR. CROFTS: Good evening, Mr. Chairman and
12 members.
13 My name is John Crofts, and I'm
14 representing the Planning and Development
15 Department.
16 MR. KELLY: Good evening.
17 Sean Kelly, Planning and Development.
18 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4,
19 City Council.
20 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt, District 11.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Art Graham, District 13.
22 MR. JOOST: Stephen Joost, Group 3
23 at-large.
24 MR. BROWN: Reginald Brown, District 10.
25 MR. YARBOROUGH: Clay Yarborough,
Diane M.
Tropia,
3
1 District 1.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. Let's see who you
3 are in the back, on the end someone.
4 MR. MORETZ: Austin Moretz with the Office
5 of General Counsel.
6 MS. SHAW: Cherry Shaw, Office of General
7 Counsel.
8 MR. McEACHIN: Joel McEachin,
9 Planning and Development Department.
10 MR. KRESEL: Gary Kresel, Planning and
11 Development.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Very good.
13 Okay. Well, this is actually my last
14 meeting as chair --
15 (Applause.)
16 (Mr. Webb enters the proceedings.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: -- so let's make it quick
18 and efficient.
19 Let the record show that Mr. Webb has made
20 it.
21 Okay. Let's go --
22 MR. WEBB: Mr. Chairman, before we begin --
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir.
24 MR. WEBB: -- we have -- we have some
25 visitors with us this evening. We have a
Diane M.
Tropia,
4
1 group. The name of the organization is --
2 everyone stand up and be recognized.
3 Welcome.
4 (Applause.)
5 MR. WEBB: They are -- they are a group of
6 committed young adults who participate in an
7 organization that's sponsored by the Catholic
8 Diocese of
9 traversing the city looking at different
10 neighborhoods and conditions that various --
11 that our respective constituents face in the
12 city.
13 And when I explained to them tonight that
14 it was council -- that it was the chairman's
15 last meeting as the head of LUZ, they would have
16 nothing but to come and share that evening with
17 you, sir.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Fantastic.
19 Welcome, all. You're going to see
20 government at its finest.
21 Top of page 2, 2008-541. We will open that
22 public hearing.
23 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
24 public hearing till August 4th and take no
25 further action.
Diane M.
Tropia,
5
1 2008-542. Open the public hearing.
2 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
3 public hearing till August 4th and take no
4 action.
5 2008-549. We'll open that public hearing.
6 Yes, we'll open the public hearing for -549
7 and -550, and I think I have Mr. Kupperman here
8 for questions only.
9 (Mr. Kupperman approaches the podium.)
10 MR. KUPPERMAN: Yeah.
11 Greg Kupperman,
12 This is a 7.8-acre parcel that's bound by
13
14 on the south, and a 200-foot JEA right-of-way
15 overhead aligns on the west side. There's also
16 a companion PUD which is the next number,
17 2008-550.
18 There are several conditions that have been
19 worked out with the Planning and Development
20 Department. I agree with all of those
21 conditions, and I'll be glad to answer any
22 questions that the committee may have.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: You're a good man.
24 We will close both those public hearings.
25 MR. WEBB: Move the bill.
Diane M.
Tropia,
6
1 MR. BROWN: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: 2008-549 has been moved and
3 seconded.
4 Any discussion on the land use change or --
5 yes.
6 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, open the
8 ballot.
9 (Committee ballot opened.)
10 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
17 the vote.
18 (Committee ballot closed.)
19 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
21 approved 2008-549.
22 Top of page 3, 2008-550.
23 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment has been
25 moved --
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. HOLT: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: -- and seconded.
3 Any discussion on the amendment?
4 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, can we hear the
6 amendment?
7 MR. CROFTS: The amendment is as follows.
8 There are five conditions, and they are:
9 Number 1, "The development shall be subject
10 to the original legal description dated
11 April 15, 2009.
12 Number 2, "The development shall be subject
13 to the revised written description dated
14 May 14th, 2009."
15 Number 3, "The development shall be subject
16 to the revised site plan dated May 14, 2009."
17 Number 4, "The development shall be subject
18 to the review and approval of the Development
19 Services Division memorandum dated May 7, 2009,
20 and the
21 memorandum dated May 19, 2009, or as otherwise
22 approved by the Planning and Development
23 Department."
24 Number 5 and finally, "At the time of
25 verification of substantial compliance, the
Diane M.
Tropia,
8
1 applicant will be required to submit finalized
2 building elevations subject to the review and
3 approval of the Planning and Development
4 Department."
5 That's it.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you in agreement with
7 all those?
8 MR. KUPPERMAN: Yes, sir, I'm in agreement
9 with all of the PUD conditions.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sounds good.
11 All in favor of the amendment signify by
12 saying aye.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
17 approved the amendment.
18 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
19 MR. BROWN: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
21 seconded as amended.
22 Mr. Holt.
23 MR. HOLT: Mr. Chair, would you mind if we
24 put this on the table for a little while and I
25 can speak with Mr. Kupperman?
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
2 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's lay this thing on the
4 table and come back to it.
5 Mr. Kupperman, it looks like you're being
6 summoned to the Green Room.
7 Next bill, 2008-880, is deferred.
8 2009-91. We'll open that public hearing.
9 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
10 public hearing and take no further action.
11 Top of page 4, 2009-192. We will open that
12 public hearing.
13 Evelyn
14 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
I'm Evelyn
16 I
reside at
17 support of the committee's resolution for the
18 waiver of road frontage.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is that it?
20 MS. GRIFFIN: That's it.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
22 MS. GRIFFIN: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no other speakers, we
24 will close that public hearing.
25 Staff, talk to me.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
2 To the Chair, ordinance 2009-192 is a
3 waiver of road frontage. You'll notice this has
4 been deferred for some time. Originally
5 scheduled for April.
6 Initially, the department did not support
7 the reduction of the waiver. Given the
8 circumstances, it appears that the overall
9 property that predates this applicant has been
10 subdivided over time kind of in a de facto
11 style, never meeting the City standards.
12 It is our intent, though -- after meeting
13 with the applicant, we're looking at revising
14 our recommendation which essentially would make
15 it compliant with City standards.
16 So our denial at this point would be a
17 reversal basically to an approval with a
18 condition, and I can read that condition into
19 the record.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's hear that condition
21 before I let Mr. Webb have it.
22 MR. KELLY: The condition would read,
23 "Prior to issuance of a building permit for the
24 second dwelling, a private road cul-de-sac
25 access easement meeting City standard dimensions
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 shall be recorded. The easement shall be
2 improved utilizing low-impact design standards
3 subject to Planning and Development Department
4 review and approval."
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, was that the
6 amendment that you're in approve of?
7 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes, sir.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Let the record show that the
9 applicant said yes.
10 Mr. Webb.
11 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 I wanted to thank the Planning Department,
13 Mr. Kelly and Mr. Crofts, for their assistance
14 in coming to a resolution of this, and I urge
15 the Council to support the amendment to grant
16 the waiver with the additional condition.
17 Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: That was a motion?
19 MR. WEBB: That's my motion.
20 MR. BROWN: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: And it was moved and
22 seconded.
23 Any further discussion on the amendment?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller, are you fine with
Diane M.
Tropia,
12
1 that?
2 MS. ELLER: (Nods head.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
4 signify by saying aye.
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
9 the amendment.
10 MR. WEBB: Move the bill -- the waiver with
11 the condition.
12 MR. BROWN: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
14 to approve the waiver with the condition.
15 Any further discussion?
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
18 ballot.
19 (Committee ballot opened.)
20 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 the vote.
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
5 approved 2009-192.
6 2009-252. We will open that public
7 hearing.
8 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
9 public hearing till July 21st and take no
10 further action.
11 2009-254 is deferred.
12 2009-287. We will open that public
13 hearing.
14 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
15 to August 4th and take no further action.
16 Top of page 5, 2009-288. We will open that
17 public hearing.
18 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
19 public hearing till August 4th and take no
20 further action.
21 2009-326. We will open that public
22 hearing.
23 I have Janet Butler.
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Come on down. You've got
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 three minutes. Followed by Mark Lamoureux.
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Lamoureux.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry I butchered your name,
4 sir.
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Name and address for the
7 record, please, ma'am.
8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Janet Butler, 5486
9 Green
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
11 MS. BUTLER: Okay. This is a private road
12 that is well-maintained. There's a mailbox.
13 The mail is delivered and the newspaper is
14 delivered daily also.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. That's it?
16 MS. BUTLER: Uh-huh.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
18 MS. BUTLER: Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mark.
20 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mark Lamoureux, 12459
23 I just want to state that I'm against the
24 petition, but I can support it wholeheartedly if
25 the petitioner will agree to retain all of the
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 trees that are in her backyard.
2 (Mr. Holt enters the proceedings.)
3 MR. LAMOUREUX: I live on a property whose
4 backyard abuts the
5 presently there is a great amount of
6 vegetation. It provides a wonderful visual
7 buffer between both backyards.
8 I support her petition, but with the
9 condition that she leave those trees in the
10 backyard.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
12 Seeing no further speakers, we will close
13 that public hearing.
14 Planning Department.
15 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
16 To the Chair, ordinance 2009-326 is a
17 waiver of road frontage request essentially to
18 allow for two dwelling units with approximately
19 30 feet of frontage on Green
20 essentially an unimproved private road, which I
21 believe is -- predates or was prior to the
22 county consolidating had existed, so it's --
23 essentially the -- Green
24 grandfathered road.
25 This is a situation where the department
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 initially in our review felt that the potential
2 for cumulative detrimental de facto subdividing
3 a property, that there's a lot more
4 opportunities for further subdivision in the
5 future, made this -- the department's
6 recommendation was a very strong denial.
7 We've got some conditions at this point
8 that would negate the -- any future subdividing
9 of this property, which we can read into the
10 record. I'll be glad to go over that at the
11 time.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Would your conditions bring
13 the Planning Department recommendation to an
14 approval or not so severe of a denial?
15 MR. KELLY: No. It would be for an
16 approval at this point.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. What are those
18 conditions?
19 MR. KELLY: The conditions would be that
20 there shall be no more than two dwelling units
21 on the combined subject property of 6.5 acres.
22 Additionally, the property address and
23 directions will be clearly posted from the
24 right-of-way at Green
25 notify emergency responders of the property
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 location.
2 Additionally, there shall be no further
3 subdivision of the subject overall parent tract
4 of 6.5 acres of land.
5 And I guess the third condition would be
6 related to the opposition's buffering question,
7 that they shall provide an undisturbed natural
8 buffer between those two properties.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you saying how much of a
10 natural buffer?
11 MR. KELLY: I do not believe I have a tree
12 survey, but I think they're providing a
13 substantial area. And I would say at a minimum
14 it would be a 50- to 60-foot-wide undisturbed
15 natural buffer, which I think they can easily
16 comply with.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb.
18 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 I guess through the Chair to the applicant,
20 I assume that -- given the conversations that
21 Planning has had with the applicant, that they
22 would be acceptable to the applicant?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Butler, are you in
24 agreement with those conditions?
25 MS. BUTLER: Yes.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Let the record indicate that
2 she said yes.
3 MR. WEBB: And, sir, your opposition was
4 based on the absence or the potential removal of
5 the buffer. Would the --
6 Through the Chair to Sean, what's the size
7 of the buffer?
8 MR. KELLY: I was suggesting about 50 to
9 60 feet. Probably the Water Management District
10 would have an upland buffer requirement that
11 would have to be basically undisturbed anyway,
12 which is about 25 foot off of any kind of
13 wetland boundary, so . . .
14 MR. WEBB: That being the case, sir, is
15 that acceptable to you as well?
16 MR. LAMOUREUX: Yes.
17 MR. WEBB: All right.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Let the record show that he
19 also said yes.
20 MR. WEBB: We're all happy in Mandarin.
21 I want to thank the Planning Department for
22 all their hard work on this. Thank you very
23 much.
24 I urge the committee to support the
25 amendment and the waiver.
Diane M.
Tropia,
19
1 Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's just be clear and say
3 that the amendment was for 50 feet of
4 undisturbed buffer.
5 MR. WEBB: Works.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. All in favor of the
7 amendment signify by saying aye.
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your actions, you've
12 approved the amendment.
13 Ms. Eller, was that to your liking?
14 MS. ELLER: (Nods head.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
16 MR. JOOST: Move to grant the waiver with
17 the amendment.
18 MR. BROWN: Second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Move the bill to grant the
20 waiver with the amendment.
21 Any further -- and that's been moved and
22 seconded.
23 Any other discussion?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 ballot.
2 (Committee ballot opened.)
3 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
10 the vote.
11 (Committee ballot closed.)
12 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
14 approved 2009-326 as amended.
15 2009-347. Open the public hearing.
16 Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public
17 hearing.
18 That's your bill. This is not the one that
19 you wanted to chime in on; is that correct?
20 MR. WEBB: No. No, sir.
21 MS. ELLER: (Inaudible.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Did I hear what you said?
23 MS. ELLER: (Inaudible.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. Are we continuing
25 the public hearing or are we voting on -347?
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MS. ELLER: I believe we have it marked
2 continued because we're waiting on the closing
3 of the property.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I thought you were
5 supposed to get back to me before five o'clock.
6 MS. ELLER: No, it's not closed.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
8 MS. ELLER: It's not closed. And the real
9 estate person in charge of it did not respond to
10 my e-mail and I went by the office and he was
11 not there.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So we will reopen
13 that public hearing and we will continue that
14 and take no further action.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: -348 is deferred.
16 We need to do some jumping around here.
17 Let's go back to Mr. Kupperman, which is
18 the top of page 3, 2008-550.
19 Mr. Holt.
20 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
21 Through the Chair to Ms. Eller, is there a
22 way for me to amend this -- a couple of
23 conditions on usage, one of them in particular
24 so that it would require council action?
25 MS. ELLER: (Nods head.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
22
1 MR. HOLT: I'd like to move an amendment to
2 prohibit tatoo parlors or pawnshops, but I'd
3 like it to come back to council.
4 Can we put that in the written
5 description?
6 MS. ELLER: Sure.
7 Actually, if you want to only allow any
8 modifications to that condition by coming back
9 to council, we would include it as a condition
10 of the ordinance. And, therefore, one of the
11 conditions listed in the ordinance itself would
12 prohibit those uses and then the only way that
13 that could be changed would be a PUD to PUD
14 rezoning that would come back before the
15 legislative body, so just add it on as a
16 condition in the ordinance.
17 MR. HOLT: Excellent. So moved.
18 And Mr. Kupperman has already told me he's
19 okay with it.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
21 for that amendment.
22 And the applicant is fine with that?
23 MR. KUPPERMAN: Yeah, the additional
24 condition to prohibit the use of the pawnshop
25 and the tatoo parlor are required to come back
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
23
1 before council, I'll agree with that.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. First let's take this
3 off the table.
4 All favor in favor signify by saying aye.
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, we pull -550
9 off the table.
10 We have one amendment that's already been
11 approved. We have the Holt amendment that we
12 need to approve.
13 All in favor of that amendment signify by
14 saying aye.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
19 that amendment.
20 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as twice amended.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: And we'll wrap it up into
22 one LUZ amendment and move the bill as amended.
23 MR. HOLT: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion on
25 the bill?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
24
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
3 ballot.
4 (Committee ballot opened.)
5 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
12 the vote.
13 (Committee ballot closed.)
14 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
16 approved 2008-550 as amended.
17 MR. KUPPERMAN: Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
19 Mr. Yarborough, which bill did you have?
20 MR. YARBOROUGH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 On page 7, we have a land use change and
22 rezoning. It's items 21 and 21, 2009-382 and
23 -383, if you don't mind taking those up.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Members, if we turn to the
25 middle of page 7, -382 and -383, which is a land
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
25
1 use change and a rezoning.
2 We will open both those public hearings.
3 Seeing no speakers, we will close those
4 public hearings.
5 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
6 MR. WEBB: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
8 seconded.
9 Mr. Yarborough, did you have anything to
10 say?
11 MR. YARBOROUGH: No, sir. I'll speak on
12 the rezoning.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Seeing no discussion,
14 please open the ballot.
15 (Committee ballot opened.)
16 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
23 the vote.
24 (Committee ballot closed.)
25 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
26
1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
2 approved -382.
3 -383.
4 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
5 MR. WEBB: Second.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment has been moved
7 and seconded.
8 Can we hear the amendment, please.
9 MR. CROFTS: The amendment is as follows,
10 consisting of seven conditions at the moment.
11 Number 1, "The developer shall be subject
12 to the original legal description dated
13 December 9, 2008."
14 Number 2, "The developer shall be subject
15 to the revised written description dated
16 June 3rd, 2009."
17 Number 3, "The developer shall be subject
18 to the original site plan dated December 9th,
19 2008."
20 Number 4, "The required transportation
21 improvements shall be made in accordance with
22 the Development Services memorandum dated
23 May 4th, 2009, or as otherwise approved by the
24 Planning and Development Department."
25 Number 5, "A single-family dwelling shall
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
27
1 be a permitted use."
2 Number 6, "A day care shall be permitted by
3 the grant of a zoning exception by the Planning
4 Commission."
5 Number 7, "The existing building footprint
6 shall not be expanded and the existing height
7 shall not be increased."
8 That's it.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Yarborough.
10 MR. YARBOROUGH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11 I don't know if you opened and closed the
12 hearing. I had some ex-parte. I don't know
13 if --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine.
15 MR. YARBOROUGH: Okay. I'll just go ahead
16 and declare that.
17 I talked with Mr. and Ms. Fred Bower on
18 June 9th, 2009, regarding 2009-383. It was at
19 the site, 610 Arlingwood Avenue, at 3:30 p.m.,
20 and we talked about permitted uses and the
21 potential impact to the adjacent neighborhood.
22 And then today, about 5:25 p.m., with
23 Mr. and Ms. Bower to discuss an additional
24 condition here in these chambers.
25 I would like to, for the committee's
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
28
1 consideration -- and I spoke with the applicant
2 and they were okay with it -- add an eighth
3 condition, and that would be -- that would be
4 said to read, "Any cosmetology-related use may
5 have no more than four chairs or workstations."
6 So I propose that for your consideration.
7 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
8 MR. HOLT: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
10 seconded.
11 Planning Department, did you guys get
12 that?
13 MR. CROFTS: Yes, sir.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have any concerns,
15 issues?
16 MR. CROFTS: No, we do not have any
17 concerns and we support it.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller.
19 MS. ELLER: (Shakes head.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the
21 amendment signify by saying aye.
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Is the applicant here?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
29
1 MR. YARBOROUGH: They're right there,
2 Mr. Chairman (indicating).
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you fine with those
4 amendments after read?
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, we are.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Let the record indicate that
7 the applicant is fine with those eight
8 amendments -- or the one amendment, eight
9 issues. Okay.
10 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as twice amended
11 or wrap it?
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Move the bill as amended.
13 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
14 MR. WEBB: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other discussion on the
16 bill?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
19 ballot.
20 (Committee ballot opened.)
21 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
3 the vote.
4 (Committee ballot closed.)
5 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
7 approved -383.
8 MR. YARBOROUGH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
9 committee, I appreciate it.
10 Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Not a problem.
12 Let's go back. Bottom of page 5,
13 2009-348. We need to open that public hearing.
14 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that and
15 take no further action.
16 Top of page 6, -350. Open that public
17 hearing.
18 No speakers, continue and take no further
19 action.
20 -387 [sic]. Open that public hearing.
21 Seeing no speakers, close that public
22 hearing.
23 MR. WEBB: Move the bill.
24 MR. JOOST: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
31
1 seconded.
2 Any discussion on the bill?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
5 ballot.
6 (Committee ballot opened.)
7 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
14 the vote.
15 (Committee ballot closed.)
16 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
18 approved -387. I'm sorry. -378.
19 -379. Open that public hearing.
20 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We have Wade Hampton.
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir.
23 Wade Hampton, 10110 San Jose Boulevard,
24 agent for the applicant.
25 Of course happy with the conditions that
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
32
1 are presented by the department. I'm here to
2 answer any questions.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: You are a fine gentleman.
4 We will close that public hearing.
5 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
6 MR. JOOST: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment has been moved
8 and seconded.
9 Any discussion on the amendment?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
12 signify by saying aye.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
17 approved the amendment.
18 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
19 MR. JOOST: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
21 seconded as amended.
22 Any discussion on the bill?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
25 ballot.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
33
1 (Committee ballot opened.)
2 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
9 the vote.
10 (Committee ballot closed.)
11 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
13 approved 2009-379.
14 Thank you, sir.
15 MR. HAMPTON: Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: 2009-380. We will open that
17 public hearing.
18 I'm sorry. We're going to open -380 and
19 -381, both of those public hearings.
20 And let's see, we have -- if you're here to
21 speak on this -- well, I guess you guys are
22 close enough to the front.
23 Charles Ashwell, followed by Jerry Snider.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good afternoon. It's a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
34
1 pleasure.
2 My name is Charles Ashwell, and I reside at
3 1948 University Boulevard South. I have resided
4 there since 1965. I also own a piece of
5 property adjacent to me, which is 1920
6 University Boulevard. I've owned that since
7 1976.
8 Now, I will start quoting from a letter
9 that was sent on April 27, 2009, from the Center
10 of Medicine and Wellness, which I just can't
11 believe some of the inconsistencies that are in
12 this letter.
13 Number 1, it says, "My medical license is
14 no different than the medical license of
15 Dr. Boris (phonetic), who is next door to my
16 property." It just so happens that the property
17 that I own in 1920 and 1948 and Mr. Merrikle's
18 (phonetic) property, which is 1960, are three
19 properties between the person who is applying
20 for the rezoning, although he says he's adjacent
21 to that property of Dr. Boris.
22 He also states that he's directly across
23 the street from Dr. Gandhi, a cardiologist.
24 Matter of fact, Dr. Gandhi is five-tenths of a
25 mile further south on University Boulevard, not
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
35
1 directly across the street.
2 If anyone would like to have a copy of
3 this, I'm happy to give it to you.
4 He also states that "Dr. Selander, Atlantic
5 Family Practice, is across the street from me."
6 He happens to be three -- almost three-tenths of
7 a mile further north of his property.
8 Also, I will end up this, with saying I'm
9 opposed to this 100 percent, although I've never
10 been opposed to a rezoning before since I have
11 lived in that neighborhood, and one of the major
12 reasons is -- even his telephone number is
13 1-800-ADDICTS. What kind of advertisement is
14 that for a residential area? 1-800-ADDICTS,
15 right on this letterhead right here
16 (indicating).
17 If anyone would like to have a copy of it,
18 it was sent to Mr. Kelly, chief, Current
19 Planning Division, 128 East Forsyth Street,
20 Jacksonville, Florida, dated April 27th, 2009.
21 Thank you very much.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
23 Jerry Snider, followed by Linda Felts.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening, members.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
36
1 I'm Jerry Snider. I'm the attorney for
2 Dr. Saleh, and tonight we would like to formally
3 and respectfully request that this application
4 be withdrawn.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
6 Seeing that this application -- the request
7 for this application be withdrawn, is there any
8 further persons that would like to speak?
9 MR. ASHWELL: (Indicating.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you've already spoken.
11 Is there anybody else that would like to
12 speak?
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, come on down.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Just give me your name and
17 address for the record.
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good afternoon.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir.
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you for being here.
21 Withdrawn. Boy, that's a surprise.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, I need your name and
23 address for the record, please.
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir.
25 I'm Harold Saunders. I live at 2019
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
37
1 University South. I'm across the street from
2 the proposed rezoning.
3 I agree with the Planning Department's
4 denial of this application and the unanimous
5 denial by the Planning Commission.
6 This proposal violates all of the zoning
7 codes set up by the City to protect their
8 homeowners from unwanted commercial intrusion.
9 What I need to do is address some things
10 that was brought up by the City Council at the
11 June 9th meeting. One, the staff reports that
12 were issued by the Planning Commission were
13 100 percent accurate. There were no
14 discrepancies. Only without a PUD. They gave
15 the extremes of either nine homes or a
16 45,000-square-foot building, whichever he
17 planned to do. Everyone I know that read that
18 report, they got it.
19 A couple other questions were asked by the
20 council. One was how did the existing offices
21 compare to what he says is going to be a
22 10,000-square-foot building. He said they were
23 equal. There's not a building in that area
24 that's even remotely close to 10,000 square
25 feet.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
38
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, the gentlemen said that
2 he's going to withdraw this application. Do you
3 have anything to speak to the withdrawal of the
4 application?
5 MR. SAUNDERS: On withdrawing the
6 application, no. I just want to get things, you
7 know, said that we showed up for. We've been
8 fighting this for a year.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I mean, but the things --
10 MR. SAUNDERS: As far as the withdrawn,
11 no. I'm not exactly thrilled about the idea,
12 no. I'd like to see it go through the process
13 and be defeated.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
15 MR. SAUNDERS: Can I continue?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
17 MR. SAUNDERS: Thank you.
18 One of the questions was that they were
19 equal. That's wrong. There's not a building in
20 that area that's 10,000 square feet. I'm just
21 trying to clarify some things that the council
22 asked.
23 The other one was the question was asked
24 about his clientele, whether they were high end
25 or whether they were low end. Well, it doesn't
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
39
1 matter. The ones that he has are the ones that
2 are committing all the violence.
3 So he's also said at the Planning
4 Commission last week, you know, he's been
5 telling everybody about a Zen City, the Disney
6 World of drug rehab. Well, he said he's going
7 to see some low-end people. He said that last
8 week at the Planning Commission.
9 Just want to state one other thing. This
10 is not about race, this is not about religion,
11 and this is not about discriminating against the
12 mental illness. This is just flat out spot
13 zoning. It violates all of the zoning code.
14 And if it was to go through the process, I'm
15 sure it would be denied.
16 Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
18 Mr. Redman.
19 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 I'd like to see this go ahead and go
21 through today. And if I could get Shannon to
22 explain to us what would happen if -- what the
23 procedure would be if he pulled it today as to
24 coming back again.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
40
1 MS. ELLER: Sure.
2 To the committee, if the applicant requests
3 withdrawal, it's up to the committee to either
4 grant that request by making a motion to
5 withdraw and voting it up or down. If it's
6 withdrawn, then the applicant can reapply at any
7 time in the future.
8 If the bill is voted as a denial, then the
9 applicant is barred from submitting the same
10 application for at least one year.
11 With regard to the zoning, because this
12 application is a CRO zoning, the applicant could
13 reapply with a PUD or some other type of zoning,
14 but the issue comes up with the land use because
15 I don't believe that there is a different land
16 use that could be applied for. So if they came
17 back again and applied for RPI, that would be
18 barred for a year, notwithstanding a different
19 zoning like a PUD or something along those
20 lines.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: So it makes a difference to
22 vote down the land use change, but it really
23 doesn't make a difference to vote down the
24 zoning? You can still just withdraw the zoning
25 because there's so many different options to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
41
1 come back forward with?
2 MS. ELLER: Correct.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Are you fine with
4 that?
5 MR. REDMAN: Yes. As long as we go through
6 with the land use.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, now you're assuming
8 that this committee will vote it down and not
9 vote it up.
10 MR. REDMAN: Well, we have a lot of people
11 that came that have been through a lot with this
12 situation and I think that it deserves to be
13 heard.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: It's your district.
15 MR. REDMAN: Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. That being said,
17 we will move forward with Linda Felts.
18 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
20 My name is Linda Felts. I live at 1937
21 St. Cecelia Place.
22 My property backs right up to Dr. Saleh's
23 property at 2000 University Boulevard.
24 I have quite a few great concerns about
25 this. One is our septic system, our well and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
42
1 storm drainage. We are on a dead-end street.
2 When we have the storms and the hurricanes and
3 all that stuff, our road fills up with water,
4 which fills up my garage, goes around my house,
5 and exits across part of Dr. Saleh's property to
6 University Boulevard where the storm drain is.
7 Not too long after he purchased the
8 property, he stripped all of the trees and all
9 of the undergrowth off of the property. And
10 when he did that and took the roots of the trees
11 out, that made like a bowl. So now the water
12 doesn't go anywhere. It stays there.
13 My septic system, my well is all in my
14 backyard, which is his front yard. So I'm
15 worried when the hurricanes come, what's going
16 to happen? Do I need an ark or, you know,
17 what?
18 The other thing is that with all of these
19 trees that have been stripped away -- we've had
20 the eagles, the hawks, the herrings, and all of
21 the backyard birds as well as a red fox,
22 raccoons, possums that traverse between the two
23 creeks across that property as well as my
24 property, my brother's property.
25 Our property that we live on, we've been
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
43
1 there since 1923 when my grandfather purchased
2 this property for his entire family to be on. I
3 plan on staying there. I'm not going anywhere,
4 but I hate to see this happen to our
5 neighborhood. My grandchildren go to Love Grove
6 School. I went to Love Grove School. It's of
7 great concern. It is a neighborhood. It is not
8 a place for businesses.
9 There is -- there is that further down.
10 But in our area, it is not there, and we just
11 hope and pray that we will be able to retain our
12 neighborhood for what we have always have.
13 We've known each other for years. We get
14 together. We know who everybody is, and we'd
15 like for it to stay that way, and I hope that it
16 will.
17 Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
19 James Wamsley.
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Wamsley (pronouncing).
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Wamsley. Sorry, sir.
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: That's okay. Everybody
23 does it.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: And you're followed by
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
44
1 James Barr.
2 Welcome.
3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Jim Wamsley.
4 I live at 1924 St. Cecelia Place, and that was
5 my sister.
6 Yes. We have -- I'm opposed to this
7 because of the usage of the land for changing --
8 you know, going from residential to what it is
9 they're trying to do, to put a doctor's office
10 in. I just -- it just doesn't seem to work.
11 There's single-family residences all around it.
12 I have picture here of -- it's not too
13 good, but you can make it out. A before picture
14 of -- before the trees were removed and another
15 picture of how vacant the lot is now, which
16 surprised me that he could get away with
17 stripping this land like he did and not being
18 penalized. He did pay a penalty for it, and I
19 understand he was fined or whatever.
20 But the fact of the matter is, like my
21 sister said, the birds and the hawks and all of
22 that -- this is two acres of land that has been
23 totally stripped. There is a marginal of trees
24 he left that borders the property.
25 My question is -- well, I would like to see
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
45
1 this denied, not moved on, but totally denied.
2 The other question is, what can y'all do to
3 have him replant some of these trees, period? I
4 mean, it is totally vacant and it's really
5 disturbing.
6 So I don't want to see it moved. I want to
7 see it denied.
8 I don't believe that a PUD development
9 could do any good in there. The property
10 borders nine residential areas. And, like I
11 said, there's been five generations of my family
12 live right there, right next door to it, and I
13 am just totally opposed to it.
14 And I hope that maybe even if you do deny
15 it and this goes on that maybe somebody in this
16 council can do something about saying having
17 some of those trees replaced. Not saying that
18 he's going to put in a two-foot diameter tree,
19 but he could certainly be made to put in, you
20 know, a 12-foot tree -- some 12-foot trees.
21 I just can't understand how he could have
22 gone in there prior -- on the assumption he was
23 going to get it rezoned, strip the land -- the
24 City come out, from my understanding, twice, it
25 might have been three times. He paid the fine
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
46
1 but continued to do the work. Maybe this
2 doesn't fall under your jurisdiction. You got
3 some clout. I'd appreciate you put some trees
4 back, you know.
5 But look at the pictures, you'll
6 understand. That's two -- almost two acres that
7 was totally stripped down except for the trees
8 that are on the perimeter of the property, the
9 envelope of the property, you know.
10 Okay. That's it.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
12 MR. WAMSLEY: Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: James Barr, followed by
14 Mary Anne Saadeh.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Council, my name is
17 Jim Barr, 1919 St. Cecelia Place.
18 What I have to say is in reference to this
19 e-mail to Mr. Edward Lukacovic signed by Mohamed
20 Saleh. It is dated 18, April, 2009.
21 An e-mail addressed to Mr. Edward Lukacovic
22 and signed by Mohamed Saleh stated, "The dreams
23 of Jefferson, Washington, and a king are not
24 dead if you are focused, committed, and work
25 hard."
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
47
1 "I cite the first and last sentences of one
2 of the better works of my favorite author from
3 1863: Four score and seven years ago our
4 fathers brought forth upon this continent a new
5 nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the
6 proposition that all men" -- that's men and
7 women -- "are created equal."
8 In conclusion -- "and that government of
9 the people, by the people, and for the people
10 shall not perish from this earth.
11 "My son who is 100 percent Caucasian, my
12 daughter-in-law who is 100 percent Negro, and my
13 three granddaughters are 100 percent kids."
14 The types of facilities being proposed at
15 2000 University Boulevard South would be
16 adversed [sic] to the well-being and best
17 development of all children in this residential
18 neighborhood.
19 Neighbors, thank you for speaking the
20 truth.
21 Council, thank you. Best regards.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
23 Ms. Saadeh.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 MR. WILSON: I'm going to help her hold her
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 display.
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Mary Anne Saadeh,
3 5741 Atlantic Boulevard.
4 When you're talking about zoning and
5 rezoning, it's --
6 I thought this picture would give us an
7 idea of the zoning in the area, and what's
8 required for commercial rezoning would be that
9 the -- be within a node.
10 This is a node (indicating). The subject
11 property is here (indicating). As the applicant
12 has spoken of other commercial property in the
13 area, Dr. Boris' office is here (indicating) and
14 the cardiologist here (indicating). This is a
15 church (indicating) and Love Grove School. And
16 this -- and this is Bolles School and the
17 Children's Home (indicating).
18 You can see -- I hope this is so all of you
19 can see the issue.
20 The residential area is all of the yellow,
21 and across the road and the creeks that were
22 talked about -- this is Big Pottsburg and Little
23 Pottsburg Creek (indicating), and this property
24 lies between the two creeks and it is --
25 Most of the properties here (indicating)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
49
1 are on wells and septic tanks. There is not
2 City sewer. There is City water for a small
3 portion of the area down Bartram Road, and the
4 sewer does go to the Publix and to the
5 apartments here (indicating).
6 But you can see that the -- this would
7 constitute -- if you rezone the property in this
8 position, it would become spot zoning and it
9 would be bringing commercial property into the
10 heart of a residential area.
11 I ask you to deny the land use change and
12 the zoning change.
13 Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Saadeh, it's been a
15 while since I heard the term "node."
16 MS. SAADEH: Sir?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I said it's been a while
18 since I've heard the term "node."
19 We remember about five, six --
20 MS. SAADEH: And, you know, interesting --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Five or six years, I
22 remember that was a big battle between Lynette
23 Self and Suzanne Jenkins.
24 MS. SAADEH: And, interestingly, I had
25 drawn up at that time a document such as this
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
50
1 that would show what would happen in
2 Jacksonville if the definition of a "node" was
3 changed, and it would show spot zoning all over
4 the city.
5 Actually, I loaned my drawing to someone
6 from the Planning Department, who I'm sure is
7 going to return it one day, but they haven't
8 returned it yet, because we were using the
9 Visioning Committee.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: They're still not listening.
11 MS. SAADEH: But the point is the
12 application of a definition of "node" as it's
13 now written is a very important something, and I
14 hope as you're looking at the land use and
15 zoning changes for commercial that you will look
16 carefully at that because it is my
17 understanding, as I've looked at some of the
18 things that were happening, that a watered-down
19 version of the definition of "node" has been
20 applied in a number of applications.
21 I would hope that would not go further, and
22 we're dealing with that aggressively in the
23 Visioning Committee.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
51
1 Dr. Saleh, your attorney has got
2 two-and-a-half minutes left and then you have
3 three minutes, if he chooses to come up and
4 finish.
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good afternoon.
7 My name is Mohamed Saleh. I live here in
8 Jacksonville, Florida. I have offices in
9 Jacksonville and Nevada.
10 We no longer have the number
11 1-800-ADDICTS. That has been cancelled some
12 time ago.
13 I did not pay one penny of a fine for
14 cutting those trees. That land is my land,
15 those trees were my trees. I do whatever I want
16 with them. I didn't pay one penny of a fine. I
17 don't know where they got that information, but
18 it's wrong. I was not fined.
19 The reason we're withdrawing it is
20 because -- because of this. They don't
21 understand what we plan to do there. We were
22 planning to replant the several dozen palm
23 trees. We're going to transform it into a
24 garden. It had --
25 This application should have come in as a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
52
1 PUD, and it did come as a PUD. We did submit a
2 PUD, but it was somehow -- for a clerical error
3 or some other act of God, it disappeared from
4 our file.
5 This application should have come in as a
6 PUD because it would have given an opportunity
7 to explain to the zoning department what we
8 actually plan to do. It will be consistent with
9 the environment, the trees. You know, going to
10 be several dozen palm trees.
11 I want to -- I was going to -- I want to
12 have three full-time gardeners tending to the
13 grounds around -- around -- around the medical
14 office, the 10,000-square-foot medical office.
15 And if you have an opportunity to visit the
16 web site, you will see that there's a two-story
17 building surrounded by a chain of ponds and
18 streams and gardens, and as part of these
19 gardens we're going to be several dozen palm
20 trees.
21 And the idea was to build a building in the
22 back -- in the middle straddling the two
23 properties so that even from the second floor,
24 you couldn't see the properties on either side,
25 and plant the palm trees in the garden. That's
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 exactly why we're withdrawing it, so we can
2 properly present it to the zoning office.
3 It's just misinformed. They continue to
4 think about this addition. I receive my board
5 certification in addictions and addiction
6 medicine in 2001.
7 In 2007, I received my board certification
8 in age medicine. It's going to be a wellness --
9 a wellness center. Addiction is going to be
10 just a very small component of it. They just
11 don't understand, and I forgive them for that.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
13 Seeing no further speakers, we will close
14 the public hearing for -380 and -381.
15 Mr. Redman.
16 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 I would like to ask that this be voted
18 down. The Planning Department, Planning
19 Commission, Land Use -- the Planning Department
20 and the Planning Commission both voted this
21 down.
22 He applied for this a year or so ago and we
23 had a meeting, and these people have been
24 through this for over a year with all kinds of
25 discussions with him. There's been so many
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 inconsistent statements that have been made by
2 the applicant that, you know, it just doesn't
3 sound like the proper fit for this community.
4 It's surrounded by residential houses. You
5 have a school just down the street, an
6 elementary school, a Baptist home for children a
7 few blocks away, Bolles School a couple of
8 blocks away. They have all voiced their
9 objection to this. So, you know, it's not
10 something that is a fit for this community that
11 I feel, so I'm not supporting it.
12 MR. WEBB: Move to deny.
13 MR. HOLT: Second.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
15 to deny.
16 Mr. Joost.
17 MR. JOOST: Just real quick, through the
18 Chair to Mr. Kelly, what was the -- why did the
19 Planning Department deny this application? What
20 was the basis of the denial?
21 MR. CROFTS: If I may.
22 MR. JOOST: Sure.
23 MR. CROFTS: In summary, the Planning
24 Department's recommendation -- there were
25 several things that -- seven major points that
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
55
1 I've identified, in addition to today actually
2 going out and looking at the site to review it
3 to bring myself up to date with the site.
4 But basically the surrounding land uses --
5 were proposing a use, a medical office or a
6 clinic that is in the -- in this section along
7 University Boulevard that is residential. There
8 are single-family homes built around this
9 particular property that were built during the
10 1940s and 1950s and some further beyond that.
11 But anyway, this would create a spot zoning
12 inconsistent with several policies of the
13 comprehensive plan, specifically 1.17 and 1.18
14 of the future land use element.
15 Since the comprehensive plan adoption,
16 there have been no land use amendments along
17 this stretch of University Boulevard between
18 Beach and Atlantic Boulevard, so it's pretty
19 much been a static area. But there is a clear
20 section or stretch, link, if you will, that has
21 maintained its residential quality, and this is
22 approximately about in the middle of it.
23 This use is not appropriate infill nor is
24 it part of a node or is it part of a mixed-use
25 development, which is where we encourage
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 commercial development.
2 It does not maintain a compact or
3 compatible land use pattern, and, in addition,
4 is inconsistent with policies 1.120 -- which are
5 focusing on sprawl developments, further spread
6 developments -- spread out development, or
7 policy 3.2.2 dealing with appropriate infill.
8 It is not an efficient use of the land.
9 Again, it is not -- it's inconsistent with
10 policy 1.17, which deals the gradual transition
11 of land uses in their depiction, in their
12 allocation on the map and actual development.
13 And this is not a gradual transition. It does
14 not further compact or compatible land use
15 patterns. It does not discourage sprawl and is
16 also inconsistent in our report with regional
17 and state policies and plans.
18 That's it.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: They said all that in the
20 meeting.
21 Okay. It's been moved and seconded.
22 Any further discussion on the motion to
23 deny?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 ballot. And you press green to deny.
2 (Committee ballot opened.)
3 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
10 the vote.
11 (Committee ballot closed.)
12 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
14 denied the land use change.
15 Now we are on -381, which is the rezoning.
16 MR. WEBB: Move denial.
17 MR. JOOST: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
19 to deny the rezoning.
20 Any further discussion on the denial?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
23 ballot.
24 (Committee ballot opened.)
25 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
7 the vote.
8 (Committee ballot closed.)
9 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
11 denied the rezoning.
12 Okay. -382, -383, we've already done.
13 -398 is an appeal.
14 Top of page 8, -399. We will open the
15 public hearing.
16 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
17 public hearing and take no action until
18 August 4th.
19 -401, open the public hearing.
20 No speakers. We'll continue that public
21 hearing.
22 -402, open the public hearing.
23 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
24 public hearing.
25 -404, open the public hearing.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 I have
2 questions.
3 MS. JOHNSTON: Yes, sir.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, fantastic woman.
5 Seeing no questions, we will close that
6 public hearing.
7 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
8 MR. JOOST: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
10 seconded.
11 What's the amendment, please?
12 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, the amendment
13 essentially -- the amendment essentially has the
14 development agreement mirror up with its
15 companion fair share amendment, which was passed
16 earlier today at the TEU committee.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Paige, are you fine with the
18 amendment?
19 MS. JOHNSTON: Yes.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I hear that they stuck you
21 with a little extra money on the amendment.
22 MS. JOHNSTON: Yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let the record
24 indicate that the applicant is fine with the
25 amendment.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Okay. All in favor of the amendment
2 signify by saying aye.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
7 approved the amendment.
8 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
9 MR. JOOST: Second.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
11 seconded as amended.
12 Any further discussion on the bill?
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
15 ballot.
16 (Committee ballot opened.)
17 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
24 the vote.
25 (Committee ballot closed.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
3 approved -404 as amended.
4 Thank you, Ms. Johnston.
5 MS. JOHNSTON: Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: -429 is deferred.
7 -430, we will open that public hearing.
8 Randy is here for questions only.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no questions, you're
11 a good man.
12 We'll close that public hearing.
13 MR. WEBB: Move the bill.
14 MR. HOLT: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
16 seconded.
17 Any further discussion on the bill?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
20 ballot.
21 (Committee ballot opened.)
22 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
4 the vote.
5 (Committee ballot closed.)
6 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
8 approved -430.
9 -443, open that public hearing.
10 Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public
11 hearing.
12 MR. WEBB: Move the bill.
13 MR. BROWN: Second.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
15 seconded.
16 Any discussion on the bill?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
19 ballot.
20 (Committee ballot opened.)
21 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
3 the vote.
4 (Committee ballot closed.)
5 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
7 approved -443.
8 -444 is deferred.
9 The following bills are second and
10 rereferred: -455, -456, -463, -469, and -470
11 are all second and rereferred.
12 If we would go back to the bottom of
13 page 7, 2009-398, we have an appeal. We will
14 open that public hearing.
15 Carmen Godwin, followed by Jennifer
16 Mansfield.
17 (Ms. Godwin member approaches the podium.)
18 MS. GODWIN: Hi. Carmen Godwin, 2623
19 Herschel Street.
20 I'm here on behalf of Riverside/Avondale
21 Preservation. We ask, again, that you support
22 the original decision of the JHPC. As you know,
23 this building is listed as a contributing
24 structure in our historic district and there
25 really is no reason to overturn the original
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 decision of the JHPC.
2 That ruling was a proper interpretation of
3 the historic preservation ordinance. And if LUZ
4 reverses it out of sympathy for the applicant,
5 then it sets a precedent to encourage many more
6 applicants to attempt to get a second opinion
7 from LUZ.
8 At the last LUZ meeting, RAP was asked to
9 consider a compromise. But when we approached
10 Ms. Simpson through her attorney to discuss that
11 possibility, we were refused a meeting.
12 At that meeting, you sent this appeal back
13 to JHPC on remand, and what's interesting is
14 that it went back to a very different
15 committee. There were only two of the original
16 people who made the decision on that committee.
17 The commission, being mostly new, struggled
18 with how to approach the remand, whether or not
19 they had to compromise and what that really
20 meant.
21 However, after much discussion, they came
22 to the same conclusion as the first commission.
23 They ruled first that 307.106(q) does not apply
24 to the facts in this case, that there was no
25 economic hardship at the time of the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 application, and that the rule should not be
2 applied retroactively.
3 And secondly, they ruled to deny the
4 application as that no compromise could be
5 reached. They thought that the design should be
6 the same on all four facades and match the
7 original windows.
8 Testimony was presented to LUZ and JHPC
9 that the applicant misunderstood the decision
10 and instead followed the staff recommendations.
11 However, the work that was completed does not
12 comply with either the staff recommendations or
13 the JHPC final order.
14 Further, as stated before, the applicant
15 clearly understood the process as she owns
16 several contributing structures in our historic
17 district and had already been cited for
18 performing work without a COA.
19 She applied for a COA for the Dellwood
20 property, was notified of the meeting, but chose
21 not to attend and then chose not to follow the
22 final order.
23 Since the applicant is -- since then, the
24 applicant has chosen not to attend other JHPC
25 meetings and the commission had to rule in her
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 absence after deferrals.
2 In summary, everyone in the district has to
3 play by the same rules. Please don't set a
4 precedent by overturning a decision based on
5 those rules. Affirm the original JHPC decision
6 which was upheld in remand by the new JHPC.
7 Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
9 Hold on a second. I think I got a question
10 by Mr. Holt.
11 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12 Through the Chair, could you explain to me
13 what the compromise that was proposed by RAP
14 was?
15 MS. GODWIN: Well, we never had an
16 opportunity to sit down with the applicant and
17 talk about what that compromise would be, but, I
18 mean, there are several options that we were
19 willing to look at.
20 MR. HOLT: Can you tell me what would be
21 acceptable to RAP?
22 MS. GODWIN: Well, we talked about the
23 possibility of changing out the windows on
24 the -- there are actually two front facades on
25 this building. Because it's on a corner lot,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 it's very visible from both of those, and so we
2 had talked about that.
3 In the JHPC meeting, the concern was --
4 because one of the facades on King Street, the
5 back facade is actually also visible from the
6 street as well, so the concern was changing out
7 just two and not all of them was an issue for
8 them.
9 MR. HOLT: Okay. I'm just trying to get
10 you on the record of what would be acceptable
11 because in a minute I'm going to ask that -- if
12 the applicant would be willing to accept your
13 conditions.
14 MS. GODWIN: Okay.
15 MR. HOLT: So I just kind of wanted to get
16 a specific explanation of what would be
17 satisfactory to RAP.
18 MS. GODWIN: Again, I don't have an
19 official decision from my Design Review
20 Committee, and we didn't have an opportunity to
21 talk to the applicant, but we had discussed the
22 two front facing facades, you know, on the main
23 streets of King and Dellwood, if those could be
24 changed out. That's something we discussed.
25 But, again, our committee did not make a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 final determination on that.
2 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you.
3 MS. GODWIN: Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb, Mr. Joost, can we
5 wait until -- we only have one other person --
6 and then afterwards?
7 MR. WEBB: I have a question of General
8 Counsel.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Jennifer.
10 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Jennifer Mansfield, from
12 2043 College Street.
13 We anticipate that the applicant tonight
14 will argue as she did at -- before the JHPC on
15 remand, that 207.106(q), the economic hardship
16 ordinance, would apply, and we don't believe
17 that it applies for multiple reasons.
18 First, it only applies to original COA
19 applications by the wording in the actual
20 ordinance because it applies to work that is to
21 be done, and to allow it to happen on an
22 enforcement process would basically eviscerate
23 the effectiveness of the statutes -- of the
24 ordinance.
25 Second, the commission already granted an
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 exception under this because in the original
2 staff report, it was noted that replacement
3 windows that would mimic the originals would be
4 extremely costly. And so it already granted an
5 exception under that by allowing what it did
6 allow in the original JHPC order, which is
7 windows that are substantially different from
8 the originals.
9 Third, the work to be performed in
10 accordance with the original window openings of
11 the structure means that her design plan that
12 she would have proposed is what she would have
13 had to follow, and she didn't even do that in
14 this instance.
15 So even if it did apply, what -- she didn't
16 even do what she had proposed to the JHPC, and
17 it doesn't truly fit the window openings.
18 One of the main things under the
19 ordinances, that you have to keep the original
20 window and door openings as they are. They've
21 used off-the-shelf windows and shimmed them top,
22 bottom, and sides to make them fit. You know,
23 quote-unquote, fit. And it really affects the
24 appearance of the building and they're not
25 supposed to be able to do that.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Okay. Furthermore, the applicant has not
2 met her burden of proof that duplicating the
3 original grid pattern would have cost more than
4 20 percent because in the remand hearing it's
5 noted that the extra bids that she submitted
6 were approximately the same as the amount -- the
7 cost of the work that she actually performed on
8 the building. So she hasn't met her burden of
9 proof on that, that it would be 20 percent less
10 expensive for her to do what she wants to do.
11 And, finally, we submit that the owner --
12 the original plans referenced would replace with
13 a sash style window that replicate the grid
14 pattern in the original windows, and she didn't
15 do it. And so even if the economic hardship
16 exception applied, she didn't even do what she
17 said she'd do.
18 We also anticipate there will be testimony
19 about the building as marginal and not
20 architecturally significant and that it's
21 basically not important enough for you to care
22 about, but whether you or I think that the
23 building is important historically or
24 architecturally significant is not the question
25 at hand. In fact, it's a very subjective view
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 of historic properties that's dangerous to get
2 into and shouldn't be allowed because decisions
3 on the ordinance should not be based on personal
4 preference.
5 My opinion or your opinion of the
6 building's significance is not important.
7 What's important is that the building is a
8 contributing structure under the ordinance, and
9 so it falls under the district regulations and
10 they should be applied to everyone equally, and
11 that's the most important thing, equal
12 application for all residents in the district.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
14 Ms. Andrea Simpson.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. Andrea Simpson.
17 Address, 12463 Aladdin Road.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
19 MS. SIMPSON: Okay. I'd like to start from
20 the beginning because I keep getting accused of
21 things, and I'm not sure of what I'm getting
22 accus- -- why I'm getting accused of it.
23 First off, I've attended every meeting
24 except for one. And the meeting I did not
25 attend, I called preservation and I told them, I
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 have to go away. I've been going to school up
2 in Tennessee. And when I called them, I said,
3 what is this going to take? You know, do I have
4 to go? He says, well, we filled out the
5 application. We're going to go ahead and order
6 the windows. You don't have to really go. It's
7 okay because we'll just order what's on it.
8 Fine.
9 If I was trying to be sneaky -- I'm getting
10 accused of being -- you know, I'm getting
11 accused of being sneaky and everything else. If
12 I was going to be sneaky, I would have went and
13 ordered windows for $4,000, not $12,000. I was
14 giving historic what they wanted. Okay?
15 So I put them in -- I didn't put them in.
16 I went and I -- the thing came through. Joel
17 McEachin was out on vacation. I called up the
18 historic and I said, did I get approved for
19 those windows? They said, yes, you have gotten
20 approved for those windows. I'll send it you,
21 I'll fax it to you now.
22 I took it out of the fax machine. I'm not
23 going to sit there and read it. I don't know
24 what it means, I don't care what it means, I
25 just wanted to give them what they wanted to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 get.
2 So I put it in the fax machine to the
3 window company. Their employee picked that up,
4 ordered the windows, collected a check from me,
5 the windows were in. We got it all done,
6 finished.
7 All right. So after all this is happening,
8 a month later maybe, I get a letter. These are
9 the wrong windows, you put in the wrong
10 windows. You did this purposely, you knew
11 better than this, you had other houses in the
12 historic [sic], all this nonsense.
13 When I first went to historic, I did get a
14 house. I got a duplex and somebody told me you
15 have to put wood windows in there. Okay? I
16 then applied for the COA. I didn't know
17 anything about the COA. That was my first
18 time. Okay?
19 So I learned. So the second time, when I
20 bought this building, I went to get the COA. I
21 ordered the windows, and I'm still wrong.
22 I put in what I thought was supposed to be
23 put in. This has been going back and forth for
24 15 months now. It's going nonstop from here to
25 the commission.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 The commission was pretty much agreeing,
2 these windows look better than the original
3 ones. If you read the transcripts, they're in
4 the transcripts. These are better than those.
5 This building suits it. It's borderline
6 historic. It's not, you know, the middle of
7 historic. There's hundreds of other houses
8 within a few blocks, all over the place, with
9 the same exact windows in it. I don't see what
10 the problem is.
11 I put in a lot more than what I needed to
12 put in on this house. Okay? We are drowning.
13 We can't rent it. It's a drug-infested
14 neighborhood. It's empty. We have one person
15 in that building. Out of four apartments, one
16 person.
17 We're about to lose this house. I can't
18 sit there and say, okay, I'm going to throw out,
19 you know, $12,000 of windows that I put in,
20 where the mistake started in the -- you know, in
21 the preservation department and then, you know,
22 comes my way.
23 I keep getting yelled and screamed at that
24 I missed meetings and missed meetings. I'd like
25 to know what I missed. I missed one meeting,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 and they knew about it.
2 You know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that
3 there's been a mistake and I'm sorry that, you
4 know, I didn't read the paper. Even if I would
5 have read it, I don't understand it.
6 I was giving them what they wanted. You
7 know, I don't care. That's fine. If I could go
8 back and do it all over again, what do you
9 want? I'll give you what you want, but right
10 now there's no more money left and I can't throw
11 these windows out. I don't even know what we're
12 going to do to pay the taxes on this building or
13 the mortgage. We're just skimming by. We have
14 enough for five more months and we're done.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
16 MS. SIMPSON: Thanks.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb.
18 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 I guess initially my comment, my question
20 was to the General Counsel's Office, and it was
21 prompted -- it was more of a point of order. It
22 was prompted by Councilman Holt's suggestion of
23 a possible compromise, and I guess --
24 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
25 MR. WEBB: My question to the General
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1 Counsel's Office was, you know, inasmuch as
2 we're hearing the appeal of a quasi-judicial
3 matter, it seems to me that the attempts to
4 compromise have already been offered and
5 arguably we'd just have to rely upon the
6 evidence presented here in making a
7 determination again.
8 But having said that, since that time, it
9 seems to me that -- I mean, I -- I know we've
10 been through this mill before. We've referred
11 it back and there were some discussions, attempt
12 to compromise, but it seems to me that, you
13 know, from a legalistic perspective, perhaps we
14 may be precluded from considering other -- I
15 don't know, additional offers of compromise, but
16 it just seems to me that some of these -- this
17 is a keystone cop situation where people just
18 aren't getting on the same page. I mean, I --
19 where are we at, General Counsel?
20 MS. ELLER: Sure.
21 You're correct to identify that this is
22 unique. The original appeal from the first
23 denial by the Historic Preservation Commission
24 for the replacement of all the windows was a
25 de novo appeal to this body.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 At that time, you-all remanded it back to
2 the Historic Preservation Commission for them to
3 look at it again, consider the issue of
4 hardship, and then consider whether a compromise
5 could be reached.
6 At the Historic Preservation Commission,
7 they determined that they didn't believe that
8 the hardship section was appropriate and that
9 there wasn't a compromise that could be
10 reached. They did not offer you up on this
11 appeal any recommendations regarding a
12 particular compromise.
13 So then the question becomes, is -- in our
14 ordinance code we do not have any guidance
15 regarding an appeal after a remand. The only
16 requirement in our ordinance code is that
17 appeals are de novo.
18 Again, I do believe that you reviewed a lot
19 of the substance in your prior decision-making
20 upon remand, but I believe that you are open to
21 anything -- you know, any additional conditions
22 that you'd like to make because you did not make
23 a final decision on any particular conditions.
24 You remanded it back to historic preservation
25 for consideration of whether a compromise could
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1 be reached.
2 MR. WEBB: So, through the Chair to General
3 Counsel, our review of the finding with respect
4 to the hardship is de novo?
5 MS. ELLER: Correct.
6 MR. WEBB: So could you explain to the
7 committee what that means?
8 MS. ELLER: De novo just means that you
9 look at everything again. You have the ability
10 to weigh the same exact evidence that the
11 Historic Preservation Commission reviewed.
12 Just like at the last meeting you-all
13 wanted the Historic Preservation Commission to
14 take a look at that because they had not
15 considered that. It was our understanding that
16 they had not looked at that issue, so you wanted
17 a recommendation from them as the experts in
18 applying this particular section of the
19 ordinance code.
20 So you sent it back. You said, hey, tell
21 me if you-all think that it's a hardship based
22 upon your experience and your application of
23 Chapter 307. Let us know what you think, and
24 also let us know if there's any opportunity for
25 compromise on the windows because it was our
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1 understanding that the applicant -- that there
2 wasn't -- either they weren't present -- I think
3 they were not present, so there wasn't a chance
4 for a back and forth at the lower level.
5 So you wanted it to go back to the Historic
6 Preservation Commission, have those two issues
7 revisited. They did that, and they're back
8 before you and their position is that a hardship
9 doesn't apply and that there wasn't a compromise
10 they were comfortable with as in the --
11 replacing it on the two sides.
12 MR. WEBB: Okay. Well, Mr. Chairman, I
13 guess we're going to hear from the General
14 Counsel's Office as to what occurred --
15 MS. ELLER: At HPC.
16 MR. WEBB: Yeah, so -- all right. I'll
17 reserve additional questions and comments.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I have a question
19 before we move forward.
20 Well, first of all, let me declare my
21 ex-parte communication. I spoke to Mr. Mitchell
22 today about this issue, and I think that was
23 it.
24 The question I have -- Ms. Simpson, it said
25 that she had only missed the one meeting and
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1 Mr. Teal passed out a sheet of paper here where
2 it has her missing several meetings, and I guess
3 the question I have is, where is the
4 disconnect?
5 Mr. Teal.
6 MR. TEAL: To the Chair -- and I think
7 Ms. Simpson was provided with a copy of the
8 handout, but what we did is I asked staff to go
9 back and review the previous history that she's
10 had with the historic process and they
11 determined that she had had nine certificates of
12 appropriateness for properties that she owns in
13 the Riverside historic district.
14 And as you can see from the handout that
15 two of them were actually heard at the same
16 meeting. They were almost companion
17 applications, but at the meeting on March the
18 28th, 2007, we have no record of her
19 attendance. There was no sign-in sheet, there
20 was no speaker card. She didn't speak on her
21 item in the transcript from that item, so I have
22 no record of her attendance there.
23 On --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: So -- but let me back up.
25 So she could have been there, she just
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1 chose not to speak?
2 MR. TEAL: Correct.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
4 MR. TEAL: Correct.
5 The disconnect on that particular one is
6 that there was no -- typically, the way that the
7 chair handles those meetings is they ask if the
8 applicant is present, and then there's an
9 affirmative finding that the applicant is either
10 there or not there.
11 That particular one, they took it up early
12 because they were coming back from a break and
13 somebody asked that it be moved up because they
14 had a small child at home, so we're thinking it
15 was one of the staff members.
16 But that's the reason why I have it
17 different on there, as no record of attendance,
18 as opposed to wasn't there.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, in 2007, did you have a
20 different chair than you have now?
21 MR. TEAL: We did. Susan Grandin was the
22 chair in 2007.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: And Susan Grandin made it a
24 point of making sure the applicant was there or
25 not?
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1 MR. TEAL: Typically, that's what they
2 normally do, is to -- because they have -- they
3 don't like to take up items without the
4 applicant being there, and you can actually see
5 this from one of Ms. Simpson's where it was
6 actually deferred because she wasn't present.
7 With this particular one, she wasn't there,
8 but she did have a conversation with Joel
9 McEachin and she actually said, I'm not going to
10 be there. The commission is going to do what
11 the commission is going to do, so I'm not going
12 to be there.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. According to
14 you -- I'm trying to figure out your spreadsheet
15 here. The top four items were things that were
16 done by staff, so there was no need for her to
17 deal with that?
18 MR. TEAL: That's correct.
19 Those were staff approvals and they didn't
20 require a trip to the commission.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Item 5 and 6 on your list,
22 we don't know if she was there or not, so you
23 have to give the applicant the benefit of the
24 doubt because you don't have any record that she
25 was not there?
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1 MR. TEAL: Correct.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Item 7, March 26th,
3 '08, she was not in attendance?
4 MR. TEAL: Correct. And that's the item
5 that she's appealing today.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: And April 28th, '08, she was
7 not in attendance?
8 MR. TEAL: I believe it was May 28th.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: May 28th. I'm sorry.
10 MR. TEAL: Correct.
11 And that one the commission deferred
12 because she wasn't in attendance.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: And then in -- June 25th of
14 '08 she was not in attendance?
15 MR. TEAL: Correct.
16 And they moved forward with her application
17 to deny it.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: And September 3rd, '08, she
19 was not in attendance?
20 MR. TEAL: Correct.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: And 9/24/09 she was in
22 attendance?
23 MR. TEAL: And that's actually a typo. It
24 should be 9/24/08. But yes, she was at that
25 meeting.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: So she was at that meeting,
2 so --
3 MR. WEBB: Can I request a clarifying
4 question?
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure, Mr. Webb.
6 MR. WEBB: I appreciate the Chair's
7 indulgence.
8 The application that's before us relates to
9 COA-08-146; is that correct, Mr. Teal?
10 MR. TEAL: That's correct.
11 MR. WEBB: The only entry on your
12 spreadsheet that relates to COA-08-146 is the
13 one that's 3/26/2008; is that correct?
14 MR. TEAL: That's correct.
15 MR. WEBB: So all of these other ones are
16 for different applications, right?
17 MR. TEAL: They are.
18 MR. WEBB: So they have no relevance to
19 what's going on here this evening.
20 MR. TEAL: The only relevance is that she
21 actually spoke with the staff and said, I'm not
22 going to be there.
23 MR. WEBB: Well, fair enough.
24 But, again, we're talking about -146. So
25 Ms. Simpson said she wasn't -- there was one
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1 meeting that she was aware of that related to
2 -146 and she did not attend, so this
3 spreadsheet is actually consistent with what
4 Ms. Simpson said?
5 MR. TEAL: Well -- and also it --
6 MR. WEBB: Yes or no?
7 MR. TEAL: It's consistent with what she
8 said --
9 MR. WEBB: Okay. Thank you.
10 MR. TEAL: -- as far as those applications
11 that occurred prior to that.
12 MR. WEBB: Understood. But again -- you
13 know, I understand that. I'm not taking sides
14 here. I just want to -- you know, the
15 spreadsheet looks -- you know, it creates a
16 situation -- it creates a presumption -- not a
17 presumption, but an impression that, wow, she
18 came down here and said, you know, I only missed
19 one meeting.
20 Well, she's right, one meeting that related
21 to this particular application, which is -146.
22 Fair enough. All right.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess my point was a --
24 Ms. Simpson, is this -- as far as you know --
25 please come to the mic.
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1 (Ms. Simpson approaches the podium.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: As far as you know, this
3 sheet is accurate?
4 MS. SIMPSON: I don't know what the
5 nonattendance is. I've been to every one I'm
6 supposed to be to except the one. I have been
7 there every time for every thing. And I told
8 Joel I wasn't coming to that one, and he said
9 that's fine, we have the application and we'll
10 take care of it. And I was doing whatever they
11 wanted, and that's where I got the fax in. You
12 have the fax number, the date, the time, where
13 we faxed it over.
14 Even the commission said -- when she saw
15 that fax, she said, that's very confusing. She
16 would have been confused too.
17 They all liked the windows. They said
18 these look better than the ones that were
19 originally in there. They wanted to let this
20 go. Mr. Teal would not let this go. No matter
21 what we did, he would not let it go. It was
22 12 midnight. We sat there for nine hours the
23 last time. Everybody was falling off their
24 chairs.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: So, Ms. Simpson, you're
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1 saying these other three meetings that they said
2 you were not in attendance --
3 MS. SIMPSON: In 2007, the only thing I
4 could think of is like when I was telling you
5 before about the house that somebody said put --
6 it was the first house I did in historic.
7 Okay? And they said put in wood windows, so I
8 put in wood windows. No problem. Okay?
9 Then they said, you're supposed to pull a
10 COA. So I was like, no, I didn't know that. So
11 I had gotten fined $200. I went down to the
12 place there. I said, I'm really sorry. I
13 didn't know I was supposed to pull this. This
14 was the first house, this was in 2007.
15 I went there to get whatever I had to, I
16 sorted it out. I went with preservation to a
17 court hearing, whatever. She said, you did
18 everything you're supposed to do with [sic] in
19 the same time, ten days.
20 I'm not going to sneak around and try to
21 get away with something. There's no point in
22 that. I'm not trying to be sneaky. I'm not
23 trying to be rude to anybody. I just want -- I
24 just want to resolve this problem. It was an
25 innocent mistake, starting at the preservation
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1 department. It didn't start in my hands; it
2 started in theirs.
3 They verbally told me, you've been approved
4 with conditions and sent me the fax. I took it
5 and sent it on to the window company. His
6 people that he hires, his employees took it and
7 went and did the order for it. And if somebody
8 made a mistake along the way, well, we're sorry,
9 but the mistake started at the preservation.
10 And as far as people trying to work with me
11 and compromise, there has been no compromise.
12 It's their way or no way. And changing windows
13 right now is not really an option for me, I
14 can't do it. We have nobody in this building,
15 nobody. We can't rent it.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, it sounds to me -- and
17 here I'm just trying to get to the bottom of
18 this. If this -- the meeting that you said that
19 you were going to miss, that's fine. And things
20 were -- there was misunderstandings that came
21 out of that.
22 MS. SIMPSON: Right.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: My understanding is, even
24 though they sent you the wrong windows, they
25 said -- they sent you the staff report and not
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1 the final order.
2 MS. SIMPSON: Right.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: The staff report, you didn't
4 even put those windows in.
5 MS. SIMPSON: I put -- I just sent it on
6 and his employee took it and --
7 THE CHAIRMAN: But the thing is, even --
8 you're saying that they made the mistake. Even
9 if they made a mistake and sent you the staff
10 report and not the final order, you didn't put
11 in the staff report or the final order. You put
12 in even a third set of windows -- a different
13 set of windows.
14 MS. SIMPSON: I know I paid a lot of money
15 for these windows. And if I was going to try to
16 get away cheap or do something that wasn't
17 right, Home Depot I could have gotten for $4,000
18 that would have looked identical to these or
19 similar or -- they all look the same to me, to
20 be honest with you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am, to me -- I agree.
22 They look the same to me as well, but I'm just
23 trying to get to the bottom of this. I'm just
24 trying to facilitate this, and that's what the
25 problem comes to, from -- I'm sitting here
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1 looking at this, that there's other meetings
2 that you've just chose not to go to.
3 MS. SIMPSON: I did go to all the meetings
4 except that one, except that one, and I called
5 in and I said, I'm going to school. I'm not
6 going to be able to attend. Do I need to?
7 But since they're going to send me what
8 they want me to do anyway, what do I have to --
9 you know, it wasn't such a big deal. It's not
10 like I was going to sit there and argue with
11 them. I said, whatever you want. Joel,
12 whatever you want, I'll put in.
13 I'm not going to have problems like they
14 did in the past -- innocently in the past
15 because I -- I put in wood windows. They loved
16 it. It cost me a fortune in those buildings
17 too. This time I didn't go with wood because
18 they were going to approve these -- whatever
19 they are -- vinyl windows. Okay? So I didn't
20 do the other ones that were $300 a window or
21 whatever. I learned from that. People break
22 them anyway, so it doesn't matter.
23 You know, but this here, I wanted them to
24 be happy. I don't care if there's two lines or
25 three lines. Whatever makes them happy is great
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1 for me. You know?
2 It's an innocent mistake. I wasn't trying
3 to be nasty about it. I keep getting accused of
4 all kinds of things. I just want it to go
5 away. I have major anxiety from this already.
6 This is going on 15 months.
7 We went to the commission. The commission
8 was going to let it go. They were finished with
9 this. They were all -- if you read the
10 transcripts, they were all liking these
11 windows. They said it goes with the structure.
12 And every time they were just going to leave it
13 alone, we had somebody jump up and start
14 carrying on, and that was the end of that. They
15 were like, send it back to the council, let them
16 deal with it, and that's it, pretty much, you
17 know, without -- not in those words.
18 I just need this to go away. I don't -- I
19 can't do anything about this.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we'll decide one way
21 or the other today, but thanks.
22 MS. SIMPSON: Thank you very much.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost.
24 MR. JOOST: Thank you.
25 Ms. Simpson, can you come back to the
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1 microphone?
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Come back up.
3 (Ms. Simpson approaches the podium.)
4 MR. JOOST: I guess to me what it comes
5 down to is -- do you have a copy of the fax from
6 the preservation society that you have that led
7 you to believe you had an approval?
8 MS. SIMPSON: Everybody has a copy of
9 that. I don't know if I have any more copies.
10 I passed some out.
11 I also want to -- if you want to see
12 pictures of all the other windows too, the same
13 structure, buildings as mine, I could show you
14 that as well.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess -- Mr. Joost, what's
16 the -- where are you trying to get to?
17 MR. JOOST: Well, I'm just trying to
18 determine if a reasonable person read the same
19 fax, whether they would come to the same
20 conclusion as the applicant, that they had
21 approval at that point, so I'd like to see the
22 fax.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: My understanding -- and
24 clarify me if it's wrong. My understanding is
25 she got a copy of the staff report and she got
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1 the first two pages of the staff report and not
2 the complete staff report, but it still said on
3 the report that she had -- she put in windows
4 that were similar to the windows that were
5 currently there, which are two by five. That
6 went to the contractor that was putting in the
7 windows, where there was a disconnect there.
8 They put in windows that were three by six or
9 three by four. So even though she got sent the
10 wrong report, even the windows in that report
11 weren't put in.
12 That's where we are.
13 MS. ELLER: Mr. Chairman, the staff report
14 is behind tab 7. The original staff report from
15 March 26th, 2008, is behind tab 7 in the appeal
16 book, and Joel can confirm that that's the staff
17 report that was faxed to the applicant.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost, I'll let you read
19 that. Let me go to Holt and we'll come back to
20 you.
21 Mr. Holt.
22 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
23 Through the Chair to Ms. Simpson, you said
24 earlier that you spent $12,000 on the windows
25 that you had put in.
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1 MS. SIMPSON: (Nods head.)
2 MR. HOLT: What kind of windows were they?
3 MS. SIMPSON: They're vinyl.
4 You want to see pictures?
5 MR. HOLT: Some sort of vinyl --
6 MS. SIMPSON: Would you like to see the
7 pictures of the matching houses --
8 MR. HOLT: No. I just wanted to know what
9 they're made of. They're made of some sort of
10 vinyl?
11 MS. SIMPSON: I believe they're -- vinyl?
12 MR. MITCHELL: Vinyl.
13 MS. SIMPSON: Vinyl.
14 MR. HOLT: Okay. How much was the cost on
15 windows that would have been satisfactory to the
16 historic commission?
17 MS. SIMPSON: Well, we got estimates again
18 the last time we were here. I think 20,000,
19 22,000 maybe, 20-something thousand.
20 Let me see here. I had -- I just saw an
21 estimate from one of the companies.
22 MR. HOLT: Okay. That's actually all I
23 needed to know.
24 Thank you.
25 MS. SIMPSON: Thanks.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb.
2 MR. WEBB: Is Mr. Joost ready or --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: He's still reading. We'll
4 come back to him.
5 MR. WEBB: Again -- I guess I have a
6 question for -- is it Ms. Godwin?
7 And, Mr. Chairman, here's where I'm at on
8 this thing. When we first heard this -- and
9 it's come before us -- very predisposed to deny
10 the appeal and just move on, again, because it
11 seemed to me that it is what it is. All right?
12 Again, to your point, it is what it is. It's
13 wrong and the wrong windows are there and
14 Ms. Godwin testified that we worked through
15 opportunities to get this thing solved and the
16 applicant wasn't responsive or cooperative.
17 Now I see the spreadsheet prepared by the
18 GC's office. And, in fact, it doesn't indicate
19 that to me at all. In fact, it shows me that,
20 you know, on this particular application,
21 COA-08-146, that she wasn't there one time.
22 Now, whether or not she shows up for other
23 applications or not I don't think is relevant.
24 However, that brings me to my question to
25 Ms. Godwin.
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1 Could you please -- refresh my memory. You
2 said you had some -- you attempted to negotiate
3 a compromise in this. What specifically did you
4 offer?
5 MS. GODWIN: Well, before -- after the LUZ
6 meeting, we attempted to reach out to her
7 attorney at the time.
8 MR. WEBB: Who was her attorney?
9 MS. GODWIN: I believe it was Rob Heekin.
10 MR. WEBB: Mr. Heekin. Okay.
11 MS. GODWIN: But he's no longer retained at
12 this point.
13 MR. WEBB: Okay.
14 MS. GODWIN: But he was at that time and he
15 said that she did not want to compromise and she
16 wanted to just take it back to JHPC at that
17 point.
18 Prior to that, we -- prior to the LUZ
19 meeting, we had met in the RAP office --
20 MR. WEBB: Well, let me ask you a
21 question. When you guys were here at council
22 the last time, I think the -- we had remanded it
23 to that organization with the intention -- with
24 the expectation that a compromise might, in
25 fact, be reached at that organization.
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1 Wasn't that what we did, Mr. Chairman?
2 MS. GODWIN: At the historic commission.
3 MR. WEBB: At the historic commission,
4 right.
5 MS. GODWIN: Right. And Riverside Avondale
6 Preservation is a nonprofit advisory group to
7 the --
8 MR. WEBB: Okay. Fair enough.
9 MS. GODWIN: -- historic commission.
10 So we try to compromise. And normally if
11 we compromise with an applicant and we can come
12 with that applicant before the JHPC and say that
13 we agree, then normally JHPC will say, okay.
14 You know, so that was sort of what we were
15 looking for.
16 MR. WEBB: Is there any possible way that
17 you guys can work out a compromise while
18 Mr. Joost is looking for this document?
19 I was only half kidding.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I was going to say, the
21 problem you run into is, she is part of RAP, and
22 that's a completely different entity than the
23 historic commission.
24 MR. WEBB: Right. Understood.
25 Fair enough. All right. I'm done.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost.
2 MR. JOOST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 I've got a copy of the actual fax, and what
4 was faxed to the applicant is just page 1, and
5 so all I can see on page 1 is it says, approved
6 with conditions, and it talks about the type of
7 windows. Nowhere does it say three by five or
8 three by six. It just says, "It will replicate
9 the size and grille pattern of the original
10 casements."
11 MR. WEBB: Say that again.
12 MR. JOOST: What it says -- you can turn to
13 tab 7. What it says -- that the replacement --
14 it says, "Total window replacement request.
15 Recommendation: Approve with condition, that
16 the replacement product fit the original window
17 opening both vertically and horizontally,
18 replicate the size and grille pattern of the
19 original casements, including an exterior
20 profiled muntin as well as recessed within the
21 opening in a manner to create the reveal of
22 traditional sash or casement-style windows."
23 So it talks about the style of windows.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: It says the size and grille
25 pattern.
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1 MR. JOOST: Of the original casements.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: If the original grille
3 pattern was two by five and you put in three by
4 four, that's not the same.
5 MR. JOOST: So how do we know what the
6 original casement was?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: It's behind one of your
8 other tabs, a picture of it.
9 MR. JOOST: And I guess my question to --
10 or my question to the applicant is, if this is
11 what you got and then you faxed it to your
12 workmen, how did he know what size window to put
13 in? Because nowhere on this does it talk about
14 the size windows to put in. I mean, how did you
15 draw the conclusion or -- that three by six
16 would be appropriate?
17 MS. SIMPSON: I just -- they came out and
18 measured it and put it in.
19 MR. JOOST: He came in and measured the old
20 windows?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am, you have to come to
22 the mic so they have you on the record.
23 I apologize.
24 (Ms. Simpson approaches the podium.)
25 MR. JOOST: Ms. Simpson, what --
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1 MS. SIMPSON: Well, they come out and --
2 MR. JOOST: -- I guess I'm asking is, okay,
3 if I'm in your shoes and I got this fax, it's
4 not really telling my workmen what size windows
5 to put, it just talks about kind of the style to
6 put in, so how --
7 MS. SIMPSON: Well, they have to come out
8 and measure the windows and the openings and
9 stuff, just the rough openings, and then they
10 get the window to match, I guess.
11 But when I took it out of the fax machine,
12 it was like whatever was -- I was getting I was
13 getting. I had no choice. This is not a
14 choice. If I had a choice to go back now, I
15 would never step into historic. I could have
16 bought houses anywhere at that point in time.
17 Now I can't buy them anywhere anyway.
18 But you take -- I could --
19 MR. JOOST: This says approved with
20 conditions. You didn't bother to read the
21 condition at that point?
22 MS. SIMPSON: Whatever it was going to be
23 was going to be. I -- that's fine.
24 MR. JOOST: Right.
25 MS. SIMPSON: To me, I could read it a
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1 hundred times over. It doesn't make any sense
2 to me. It's a foreign language to me.
3 MR. JOOST: Well, I'm not a -- I mean, I'm
4 a finance guy. I'm not a historical
5 preservation type, but, to me, I mean, it's
6 clear that it says that it has to fit the
7 original casements. So, at that point, I -- you
8 know, just being me, I would have made sure
9 that -- I would have wanted to know what is the
10 original size of the window at that point and
11 make sure I'm ordering the right type --
12 MS. SIMPSON: Well, they -- that's the --
13 you know, somebody goes out and measures it.
14 You know what I'm saying? They send a worker
15 out to go measure it and then they order the
16 window.
17 MR. JOOST: Who's "they"?
18 MS. SIMPSON: The window company.
19 They would go out and send one of the
20 people out, one of their workers and say,
21 measure the window. We order the windows and
22 that's it.
23 MR. JOOST: So wouldn't your --
24 MS. SIMPSON: What I did, though, I think,
25 was -- I think that they came out and -- we knew
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1 we were going to go -- you know, get a COA and
2 do that, so I had the windows measured, then we
3 got -- when the hearing was, the court hearing
4 was, they sent me the fax --
5 MR. JOOST: Okay. The windows that were in
6 there, were they the original windows or had
7 they been replaced since the beginning --
8 MS. SIMPSON: Some of them were original,
9 some of them weren't. I mean, they were really
10 nasty. They were really bad.
11 MR. JOOST: So how did your workmen measure
12 three by six when we're talking two by five?
13 MS. SIMPSON: It wasn't my workers. I
14 don't know.
15 MR. JOOST: So wasn't your -- I guess what
16 I'm saying is if you have a case, or I guess a
17 beef, if you will, wouldn't it be with the
18 person that did the work, that put in the
19 windows, and not the preservation society?
20 MS. SIMPSON: You know, I thought we were
21 getting the right windows, and they look
22 fantastic and they work fantastic, and everyone
23 was happy with them. The entire street is happy
24 with them, the commission is happy with them.
25 The only people that are not are the few people
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1 that are here right now. That's it. Everybody
2 is happy with these windows. They love these
3 windows.
4 I wanted to -- obviously, I like my
5 properties to look nice. My properties are all
6 beautiful. Okay? But I could make it just as
7 beautiful with $4,000 worth of windows instead
8 of 12-, but I didn't. I did this because this
9 is what you're supposed to do. I was following
10 the rules and regulations of the area, and so I
11 did what I was supposed to do and I'm in court,
12 back and forth in hearings for the last
13 15 months and I'm about to have a heart attack
14 from this.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Simpson --
16 MS. SIMPSON: I'm having a bad time with
17 this.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: -- do you have a copy of
19 what you currently have in there?
20 MS. SIMPSON: Of --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: The windows.
22 MS. SIMPSON: -- the windows? I have
23 pictures of all -- yeah.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. Just the pictures
25 of -- I know Mr. Mitchell had one earlier. Do
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1 you have a copy of that?
2 Mr. Joost, if I may --
3 MR. JOOST: Absolutely.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I think what happened
5 here -- and, Ms. Simpson, let me know if I go
6 astray. You gave the front page of this -- what
7 is this sheet that I'm looking at? The report,
8 the Planning Department's report or the historic
9 commission's report, whoever's report -- the
10 staff report, you gave the front copy to the
11 contractor who was going to put in the windows.
12 The contractor went out to the site, measured
13 the windows, and replaced the windows.
14 So it sounds like to me that the disconnect
15 is between Ms. Simpson and the contractor. But
16 since then, she has accepted the windows and
17 went on with life.
18 The historic people went to her and said
19 these aren't the windows you had the approval
20 for, you need to change them, and now she got
21 stuck in that infinite doodle she's in now.
22 Does that make sense? Somebody tell me if
23 I was right or wrong.
24 Ms. Simpson, was that about right?
25 MS. SIMPSON: I kind of heard what you were
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1 saying. I'm busy looking for the picture, I'm
2 sorry. I've given out all those --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mitchell, do you have a
4 copy of that picture you showed me earlier?
5 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Please bring it down here.
7 MS. SIMPSON: I have given them all out, I
8 think.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: That's all right. We got
10 one coming.
11 MS. SIMPSON: Okay.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Joost is off
13 talking.
14 Mr. Holt, do you have anything or --
15 MR. HOLT: Well, I just had a suggestion.
16 Through the Chair, Mr. Webb, you were
17 saying earlier that you might entertain a pause
18 and come back with some sort of compromise,
19 and -- I mean, we're here for a final decision
20 on this. I would suggest that maybe we defer
21 this item for two weeks and have them come back
22 with something to this body, with some sort of
23 compromise.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: The problem you run into is
25 you're going to defer it to another LUZ
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1 Committee, and then we --
2 MR. WEBB: And then we start all over.
3 (Simultaneous speaking.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: -- (inaudible) everybody all
5 over again.
6 MR. HOLT: Good point.
7 MR. WEBB: Having said that, Mr. Chairman,
8 through the Chair to Mr. Holt, I think that's
9 where we all are. I think there's confusion
10 here as to what -- I think we all know how we
11 got here, and I think given -- I think everyone
12 will agree that the wrong windows are in there,
13 they're not -- they're not in compliance.
14 That being the case, let's bust outside the
15 box here a little bit.
16 Shannon, I think you indicated before that
17 we're kind of in unchartered territory in light
18 of the fact that this appeal has been bouncing
19 back and forth.
20 Having said that -- having said that, what
21 is -- I bet there's very little limitation or --
22 as to what relief we can order as a committee
23 inasmuch as we're acting in a quasi-judicial
24 fashion.
25 What I'm suggesting, perhaps in light of
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1 the fact that we do acknowledge that there is a
2 violation here, but we also acknowledge that
3 there is an economic hardship -- it may not have
4 existed even six months ago, but given current
5 market conditions, now it does, in fact, exist.
6 The result of which would be, you know, maybe
7 another building goes into foreclosure, which is
8 nothing that anyone wants.
9 Would it be possible, Planning and General
10 Counsel, to issue a provisional certificate of
11 occupancy or what would --
12 MS. ELLER: No.
13 MR. WEBB: We can't do that?
14 MS. ELLER: We can't do that, no.
15 MR. WEBB: And have them -- and have a
16 condition on them replacing the windows within
17 12 months or something of that nature?
18 MS. ELLER: Through the Chair to
19 Councilmember Webb, you can condition the grant
20 of the appeal on -- you can add any condition
21 that you choose. You can include a time frame
22 for replacement of the windows. I believe,
23 though, that the historic preservation
24 commission, who is represented by Mr. Teal, you
25 know, they -- they had a very strong opinion
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1 regarding whether there really was a financial
2 hardship and --
3 MR. WEBB: Well, again, that is subject to
4 de novo review, though.
5 MS. ELLER: Correct. It is subject to
6 de novo review. You can include any conditions
7 that you want. You can include a time frame for
8 replacement. You can include any of those
9 conditions.
10 MR. WEBB: All right. Now, let's say --
11 Mr. Chairman, let's say that we were to offer an
12 amendment to the waiver that stated that we'll
13 grant the waiver -- and I'll just -- this is
14 hypothetical -- to say you've got to replace the
15 windows in twelve months, let's say, or six
16 months or something. Let's say that they're not
17 in compliance. What teeth do we have, through
18 the Chair to the General Counsel's Office, to
19 either shut them down or to force compliance at
20 that point?
21 MS. ELLER: The same option we have now,
22 which is enforcement. You'd go issue them a
23 citation for failure to comply with the final
24 order.
25 MR. HOLT: But let me ask a question on
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1 that --
2 MR. WEBB: Sure.
3 MR. HOLT: -- because I think you're going
4 down a very good road there.
5 Would it come directly back to us,
6 Ms. Eller, or is it going to have to go through
7 the whole process again?
8 MS. ELLER: No. It would be in our code
9 enforcement side. Once the final order on the
10 COA is issued, it's just like any other final
11 order from the City Council. You either comply
12 or you don't. If you don't comply, then we
13 issue a citation, and that citation is then
14 heard before the special master or in county
15 court.
16 MR. HOLT: Okay. But it takes it
17 completely out of the whole historical --
18 MR. WEBB: Put it in compliance, code
19 enforcement.
20 MS. ELLER: It goes to code enforcement.
21 After -- whether you vote it up or down
22 here, any -- whatever conditions you impose,
23 compliance with that is a code enforcement
24 issue. And if they don't comply, it goes to
25 code enforcement and then, you know, that's a
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1 $250 a day --
2 MR. WEBB: You know, Mr. Chairman, as a
3 public policy consideration, I don't think it
4 behooves anyone to leave a business vacant, nor
5 does it behoove anyone to drive something into
6 foreclosure, take it off the tax rolls.
7 I mean, I do hear what the General
8 Counsel's Office is saying with failure to
9 comply with the ordinance code, but I -- I'm not
10 going to offer that as an amendment right now
11 because Mr. Joost really has the floor here, but
12 I think we -- the committee should give serious
13 consideration to some sort of compromise so as
14 to get us out of a very difficult situation.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me go -- let me explain
16 where I am, and I think it's pretty much where
17 everybody is right now in this situation.
18 I understand how we got to this point. I
19 understand because, looking at this sheet that
20 Mr. Teal gave us, the meeting that they were
21 talking about that she missed was only the
22 second meeting that she was supposed to have
23 gone to, so it's not like there was a standard
24 of missing meetings prior to this. Regardless
25 of what happened after that fact, before that,
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1 there was only one other meeting.
2 The disconnect was -- it sounds like it
3 wasn't even at the historic side. It was from
4 Ms. Simpson taking her sheet, giving it to her
5 contractor, the contractor putting the windows
6 in. That's where the disconnect was.
7 Now you're at the situation where you've
8 already accepted a set of windows because they
9 look fine. As far as you knew, you passed it on
10 and you are where you are.
11 Someone came along several weeks later -- I
12 don't know how much longer later, maybe several
13 months later, and said, you did not put in what
14 you were supposed to put in. Let's just call
15 them the historic people --
16 MS. SIMPSON: Right.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: -- came in and said you did
18 not do what you were supposed to do here, and it
19 started this process that you're stuck in right
20 now.
21 I understand where the historic people are
22 coming from because being in a historic area
23 adds value to the houses there in that area.
24 There's rules that go along with that value.
25 There's some slight tax advantages that go along
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1 with that value. It makes things difficult.
2 Now, you knew that you were in a historic
3 area. This wasn't your first one. This is your
4 second one.
5 MS. SIMPSON: Right.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Of course, that doesn't fix
7 any of the other problems, but there is a
8 disconnect there. I understand where they're
9 coming from, that if you open this door, then
10 the next person is going to say, hey, you know,
11 I put them in; I can't afford to take them out
12 now; what am I going to do? And then somebody
13 else --
14 And I understand what Mr. Webb is saying
15 right now. In this economy that we're in, you
16 can't afford the $12,000 to pull those things
17 out and let those sit somewhere else and put
18 other windows in, so you're -- if this board
19 went forward saying that you're not in
20 compliance, now you're racking up code
21 enforcement violations, now there will be a lien
22 on your house -- now, granted, when you finally
23 sell it, that lien would be paid off, but what
24 good is that solving anybody?
25 So now that's where I find myself, in that
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1 quagmire. And I think that you guys are all at
2 the same spot. Mr. Joost has got the floor.
3 Go.
4 MR. JOOST: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I did
5 notice on the fax -- although in the record he
6 only had the front page -- it does say six
7 pages, which would indicate they sent the full
8 report because it's five plus the cover sheet
9 makes six.
10 And, furthermore, within the body of the
11 report it says, "Replacement of existing windows
12 with ones matching the original design would
13 preserve the traditional appearance, thus
14 continuing its contribution to the traditional
15 ambience of this part of the Riverside Avondale
16 historic district."
17 So, once again, it was saying it should go
18 to the original windows, and so part of my
19 problem with it is the applicant did not read
20 this when they sent it to the workmen. And so,
21 you know, should the preservation society be
22 penalized for something -- it's not their fault
23 she didn't read it.
24 Yet, on the other hand, when I look at the
25 windows that were replaced versus the ones that
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1 are in the book, I mean, to me, visually -- you
2 know, there's not that much difference to me, so
3 that kind of leaves me coming -- it kind of
4 leaves me in a -- I'm not really sure what to do
5 at this point because she did replace the
6 windows at a $12,000 cost.
7 However, you didn't, you know, necessarily
8 read all this, which clearly -- to me, in my
9 mind, the fault is with you for not reading this
10 work order, coming from the, you know --
11 although I'm not saying you tried to hide or you
12 tried to do something different --
13 MS. SIMPSON: I didn't read it. I just --
14 MR. JOOST: Let me ask Jason a question,
15 through the Chair, if you will.
16 At this point, I mean, what is your
17 recommendation? Because, to me, it seems like
18 she did try to comply --
19 MS. ELLER: The Historic Preservation
20 Commission --
21 MR. JOOST: -- even though she didn't read
22 the instructions and apparently the workmen did
23 the wrong measurement and put in the wrong
24 windows, even though, to me, visually, I'd say
25 it's 95 percent the same.
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1 MR. TEAL: Well, I think the -- through the
2 Chair to Councilmember Joost, I think that the
3 commission's position is that -- in a historic
4 district, when you own property or live in a
5 historic district, you understand the importance
6 of preserving the historic features that are in
7 that district.
8 If you start swapping out features, in
9 essence, you are destroying the district because
10 of the fact that it's no longer the way that it
11 was, which is what their overarching goal is, is
12 to kind of preserve the historic fabric.
13 That's the commission's position.
14 Now, to kind of piggyback on what you
15 mentioned about the entire report going over,
16 there was -- they presented a quote to the
17 Historic Preservation Commission, which
18 Ms. Simpson identified as being the quote that
19 she said. There's a check number attached to
20 that. That quote was for two across, five down
21 windows.
22 So she faxed them the entire report, which
23 on page 2 of the report it says two across, five
24 down, that's what you need. They prepared a
25 quote of 12,100 and some-odd dollars, I don't
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1 know what the change is, that says two across,
2 five down. That wasn't what got installed.
3 What got installed was three across, four down.
4 So there was a mistake made. The question
5 is, who is responsible for paying for that
6 mistake? Because I can tell you that if -- I
7 can guarantee you that if Andrea Simpson placed
8 an order for a specific light pattern and a
9 specific style of window and the manufacturer
10 and the installer installed the wrong product,
11 she'd be on the phone with them. She'd make
12 them come out and she'd make them change them
13 out to put in what she -- you know, what she
14 required.
15 Now, basically the City is in the position
16 of Andrea Simpson in this scenario. The City is
17 in the position of saying here's the appropriate
18 window style that you need to install. That's
19 not what got installed. So the question then
20 becomes --
21 You know, the City told her what was --
22 what product was appropriate and what she needed
23 to do to comply with that. She jumped the gun.
24 She didn't wait until she got her order. She
25 didn't read the staff report that got faxed to
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1 her. She talked to a secretary. She didn't
2 even talk to the planner that -- the planner
3 that did her report. I mean, had she talked to
4 Joel McEachin, he could have told her, here's
5 what you got approved for.
6 So you've got a quote there for $12,000 for
7 two across, five down, and that's what complies
8 with the staff order -- the staff
9 recommendation.
10 Now, if that's what got installed, I could
11 understand the mistake, but that isn't even what
12 got installed. So the question, then, is,
13 should the City of Jacksonville and the historic
14 district be the ones to live with the mistake?
15 You know, there was a disconnect there.
16 There absolutely was, but the historic district
17 shouldn't be the one to suffer because of it.
18 MR. JOOST: Now, let me ask you this -- and
19 I don't know if it's apples to apples, but in my
20 experience with business, there's a clause --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: You don't have to sit there,
22 Ms. Simpson. We'll call you back up.
23 MS. SIMPSON: Thank you.
24 MR. JOOST: -- in contracts called
25 substantial completion. And even though,
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1 technically, things may not be 100 percent
2 right, in my mind, it shows me that she at
3 least -- you know, it may not be two by five,
4 it's three by four. When I look at it, it seems
5 to me like it's substantially complete, even
6 though it's not 100 percent correct.
7 Does any of that bear into play here? I
8 mean, is there no room for that kind of
9 compromise or -- when you're just looking in
10 terms of, like, historic preservation law, it's
11 got to be 100 percent?
12 MR. TEAL: Well, I don't think that it's
13 required -- through the Chair, I don't think
14 it's required to be 100 percent, but it's at
15 least required to be close. You know, this
16 isn't even close.
17 I mean, I know that it's -- you've got to
18 be, you know, an aficionado of historic
19 preservation stuff to understand this, you know,
20 but the -- the light pattern in windows is one
21 of the most character-defining features of a
22 historic building.
23 And in an ideal world -- you can tell from
24 the staff report what they would do would be to
25 fix the windows that are already there --
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1 MR. JOOST: The steel casings.
2 MR. TEAL: -- with the steel casings.
3 Absent that, the code requires that the
4 light pattern be replicated, you know, to the
5 extent that -- that's the reason -- how it
6 complies with the historic regulations.
7 So that's what the commission is going off
8 of when it makes these evaluations as to what's
9 appropriate and what's not, how much leeway do
10 we have in order to do that?
11 Now, bear in mind that what the commission
12 required was different than what the staff
13 report required. The commission actually gave
14 her a little bit more latitude because it
15 required a window type that's easier to
16 replicate than what the staff was saying.
17 And so, you know, bear in mind, you know,
18 that she didn't comply with what the staff
19 report said that she should have done, but she
20 also didn't comply with what the commission said
21 should be done, which actually was going more in
22 line towards what, you know, was the more of a
23 compromise product.
24 MR. JOOST: One more question.
25 When mistakes -- I'm sure this isn't the
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1 first time a mistake like this has happened. In
2 the past, what -- let me ask you this: What is
3 the normal useful life of this type of window?
4 Do we know?
5 MR. TEAL: You're getting a little bit
6 outside of my area of expertise. I --
7 MR. JOOST: Well, I'm thinking maybe a
8 compromise -- and I'll let Mr. Webb finalize
9 it -- is that we give her a period of time to
10 replace the windows so she can recover some of
11 her costs at 12,000 that she's invested. You
12 know, maybe -- I'm thinking out loud here -- a
13 36-month period where she can recover some of
14 her investment.
15 The last thing we want to do is have a
16 vacant building out there, which is even going
17 to be worse with the wrong windows in it, that
18 will never get replaced. You know, probably --
19 you know, vagrants or whatever will probably end
20 up breaking the windows and, you know, we'll
21 have a worse situation on our hands.
22 So what I'm thinking -- you know, out loud,
23 and we'll see where the committee goes -- is we
24 make her replace the windows, but give her some
25 time frame to do it within. Has this ever
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1 happened before?
2 MR. TEAL: We actually -- the billboard
3 legislation is a good example, and I think that
4 actually it was being proposed too for some of
5 the adult entertainment facilities, but it's
6 called an amortization period, and so it has
7 been done before.
8 Now, the question, then -- I mean, the
9 building was built in 1949 and these were the
10 original windows. So as far as the life span of
11 the windows goes, you know, it's going to be --
12 MR. JOOST: Years.
13 MR. TEAL: -- okay, how much time is
14 appropriate to give for amortization?
15 MR. JOOST: I'll just throw out an
16 amendment for discussion that we give her -- we
17 let her keep the windows and give her 36 [sic]
18 amortization period to replace them, and we'll
19 put it up for discussion.
20 MR. WEBB: I'll second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Before we get to that
22 discussion, I want to hear from Mr. Mitchell
23 down here, being the window guy.
24 (Mr. Mitchell approaches the podium.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, what is the life span
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1 of your windows?
2 MR. MITCHELL: A typical vinyl window would
3 last 15 to 20 years.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
5 MR. MITCHELL: May I speak to another --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Actually, I'm kind of
7 curious on -- we heard from that end to
8 Ms. Simpson, and we didn't hear from Ms. Simpson
9 to you, so --
10 MR. MITCHELL: Well, I think everybody has
11 done a good job of summarizing it. I think
12 what's being lost in the discussion is -- really
13 the bottom line is this: Mistakes were made. I
14 think Ms. Simpson could have done a better job
15 of reading the report. I think that my
16 salesperson could have done a better job of
17 reading the report or demanding a final order.
18 I think that, obviously, if we can turn
19 back the clock, we would all do it differently,
20 but what I think is being overlooked and what I
21 think has been misrepresented tonight -- and I
22 would like to clarify it.
23 I don't know if you have the minutes from
24 the Historic Preservation Commission meeting,
25 but if you do, I would draw your attention to
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1 page 446, line 16, where the committee at 12:30
2 in the morning, the Historic Preservation
3 Commission was basically about to go down the
4 road of saying, you know what? These windows
5 really are okay. And they were directed away
6 from that, and I -- and that's Mr. Teal's job.
7 I don't have a beef with that, but it's been
8 represented here tonight that the commission
9 does not like the windows that are there, and I
10 would like to read a brief statement from the
11 minutes from the historic preservation committee
12 meeting.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
14 MR. MITCHELL: Starting with line 16 on
15 page 446, Ms. Schifanella: "You know, I could
16 make a case for it, with these double-hung --
17 especially looking at the context pictures.
18 "Now, it's an awkward position to be in
19 because of all the history involved in this, but
20 if you brought it to me on the face of it and
21 said, would you approve this, I might not like
22 this particular window, I find the muntin a
23 little flat, the whole window thin and probably
24 too far toward the face of the brick, there's
25 not enough depth profile, those would be my
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1 concerns.
2 "With what's installed, the style of the
3 windows installed and the way they fit the
4 openings, I could be comfortable with it,
5 honestly. Just when I look at the whole
6 elevation, I don't look at it and go, that looks
7 terrible."
8 Mr. Case, this is line 9 of page 447: "I
9 would agree with that 100 percent. And what has
10 more appeal to me in what's been installed is
11 the proportion of the verticals.
12 "The horizontal, which you find in that
13 type of muntin pattern, I find it more
14 traditional and more pleasing than the steel
15 casements that has a more horizontal proportion
16 than what's installed, and we're looking at a --
17 basically a federal-style building. I mean,
18 it's dramatically watered down, but it's
19 basically a box with a hip roof."
20 And he goes on to say, "So surely from an
21 aesthetic standpoint, if you were looking at it
22 today with no other prior knowledge, I would
23 say, hey, that's fine."
24 So one thing that's being overlooked in
25 this hearing is that -- just as Mr. Graham
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1 brought up, that if you send this away and bring
2 it back in two weeks or two months or two years,
3 you go before a whole different body with a
4 whole different explanation process, and it's
5 exactly what's happened at the Historic
6 Preservation Commission.
7 The original commission issued a COA. That
8 was their job. If this same window -- same
9 building with the windows installed went before
10 the current Historic Preservation Commission, I
11 would argue that they would say these windows
12 look fine. It says as much in these minutes,
13 but they were told immediately afterwards that
14 they were overstepping -- Mr. Teal told them,
15 "Mr. Chairman, I think that you are exceeding
16 the scope of what has been sent back to you,"
17 and they were directed away from accepting the
18 windows.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Don't you just hate those
20 lawyers?
21 MR. MITCHELL: Is that bell for me?
22 MR. WEBB: Mr. Chairman, if you let me
23 speak you'll love me.
24 MR. MITCHELL: Is that bell for me?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. That's fine. You
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1 finished what you had to say --
2 MR. MITCHELL: Well -- so what I was going
3 to say is, you know, if you -- I am of the
4 opinion that if the Historic Preservation
5 Commission had had instructions that said if you
6 want to accept the windows, accept the windows,
7 I think they would have.
8 I think they were confused about the
9 instructions and I think that they -- because of
10 that, they -- and if you read the minutes,
11 you'll see they talked through it for 45 minutes
12 or so.
13 And I think if you send it back to them
14 today, they would approve the windows --
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Actually --
16 MR. MITCHELL: -- but I'm hoping you don't
17 have to go to that process.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Actually, what I sent back
19 to them -- my thought process at the time was
20 that, let's leave the front windows -- let's
21 change out the front windows and leave the back
22 ones the way they were because, you know, you
23 can't see the back ones from the street, not
24 knowing that the way this is on the corner, you
25 can probably see all the windows from either one
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1 direction or the other.
2 MR. MITCHELL: You can see three sides.
3 And one of the commissioners at that
4 meeting said, "I don't know that changing from
5 one side -- you know, two sides one style, the
6 other two, I don't know that that -- what that
7 does is a valid compromise, so I'm not
8 interested in looking at different solutions on
9 different elevations," and that was the point I
10 made at this meeting prior, is that that's never
11 the right solution. It looks horrible.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let's see what
13 Mr. Webb comes up with and we'll kind of go from
14 there.
15 MR. WEBB: We're on the amendment, right?
16 The Joost amendment, where it's a 36-month
17 amortization period?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, we're on the Joost
19 amendment because it was moved and seconded.
20 MR. WEBB: Very good.
21 All right. First off, in defense of
22 Mr. Teal, Mr. Teal is representing his client,
23 the Historic Preservation Commission. That's
24 what he's doing, and he's doing -- and he does a
25 very fine job. Obviously, he did a very fine
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1 job at the hearing because they ruled in his
2 favor. All right?
3 However, you know, lawyers wear different
4 hats from time to time. We're not litigating
5 here now. And I understand his passion in
6 representing his client. We're here to mediate
7 this situation, so we're looking for compromise.
8 That being the case, Mr. Graham is also
9 right. Mr. Chairman, you're absolutely correct,
10 we are mired -- we are in the muck on this
11 thing, so the point is, the horse is out of the
12 barn, how do we get the horse back in the barn
13 without killing the horse. Okay? That's to
14 Mr. Joost's point.
15 Having said that, the amendment before us
16 is a 36-month amortization period. I suggest
17 that we offer that amendment. Again -- and I
18 know the Historic Preservation Commission and
19 the preservation people are not going to be
20 happy with that, but, again, we're looking to
21 compromise here and to work something out.
22 It's not -- again, it doesn't do anybody
23 any good, you know, for liens to be assessed
24 against this property for a violation. Let's
25 give the woman 36 months to clean it up and get
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1 it right and make them work it out with the
2 window guy. The window guy seems like he knows
3 what he's doing and he knows what he's talking
4 about. I wonder where the confusion came from.
5 Perhaps there's another role for another
6 lawyer in all of this, who knows, but -- I'm not
7 soliciting clients, by the way. I'm just
8 offering that as a suggestion.
9 That being the case, we -- I would ask that
10 we support the Joost amendment with the caveat
11 that, again, at the conclusion of this 36-month
12 period, if they're not in compliance, that's
13 when the enforcement action is to begin
14 aggressively.
15 So -- call the question on the amendment.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: You can't talk and then call
17 the question.
18 Mr. Holt.
19 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt, do you want to go
21 before or after Ms. Eller? Because she seems
22 desperate to say something.
23 MR. HOLT: After Ms. Eller.
24 MS. ELLER: Thank you.
25 For the committee's consideration, in the
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1 past, when we've added these time frame
2 conditions, we've also included language
3 regarding transferability and directing the
4 Office of General Counsel to record it so that
5 way if a new property owner comes on board, they
6 cannot -- they're not -- they'll be subject to
7 that final order as well.
8 So I just offer that. That's something
9 we've done in the past for your consideration.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that a deed restriction
11 or -- how does that transfer -- when the
12 property goes from one owner to the other, how
13 does the title company realize that?
14 MS. ELLER: Well, if we record it, then it
15 shows up in a title search. And then we would
16 just say that since we've recorded it and it was
17 a final order issued by this governmental body,
18 we would enforce it against the next property
19 owner. And then if they wanted to object to
20 that, they could try to. But if we indicate in
21 this final order that it runs with the land and
22 then we record it in the public records,
23 everyone who would be a potential purchaser or a
24 forecloser would be on notice and it would be in
25 the title search.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
2 MR. HOLT: I'm supportive of Mr. Joost's
3 amendment. I would be happier with 24 months,
4 so I would move an amendment to the amendment
5 of -- to make that 24 instead of 36.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: I would actually go the
7 other direction, but that's your amendment.
8 I think you die from a lack of a second.
9 Mr. Redman.
10 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
11 MR. REDMAN: I have to go with Mr. Joost's
12 amendment. I'm probably the most ancient of any
13 of us up here, so -- I think the windows look
14 beautiful right as they are now, but I agree
15 that 36 months would be a good time.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I have to agree with you,
17 Mr. Redman. I think the windows look great the
18 way they are right now.
19 I've made it on the record many times
20 before that I don't get the historic
21 preservation, but I know to stay out of it. I
22 understand it works and I understand a lot of
23 people appreciate it, but as Mr. Teal said
24 earlier, the intricacies of the windows, if you
25 don't know it, you just don't know it, and I'm
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1 one of those people that would drive by and not
2 know it.
3 Okay. I have nobody else on the queue, so
4 we're on the Joost amendment, which --
5 Ms. Eller, would you like to restate the Joost
6 amendment so we have it clear enough for you to
7 understand?
8 MS. ELLER: Yes. Will you give me
9 direction on whether or not you want to include
10 what I mentioned before regarding running with
11 the land?
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, we do want to include
13 that.
14 MS. ELLER: Okay. So the motion would be
15 to grant the appeal subject to the following
16 condition: The windows shall be replaced to
17 conform with the Historic Preservation
18 Commission's final order within 36 months. This
19 condition shall run with the land and the Office
20 of General Counsel shall record the ordinance in
21 the public record so thereby there's notice.
22 Again, just to remind you that compliance
23 with the Historic Preservation Commission's
24 final order within 36 months is the relief
25 position that the HPC offered, which is not as
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1 strict as the staff report, so you would be
2 going with the HPC's final order on the type of
3 windows that are required within 36 months.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: So basically in 36 months
5 she will be where she is now, that -- you know,
6 she had up until 36 months to do it. At that
7 point, code enforcement will come and give
8 her -- is it 30 days, 90 days, however long it
9 is?
10 MS. ELLER: Typically, they give a warning
11 citation and then a citation to comply within a
12 certain amount of time.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: And so how long is it before
14 the actual fines start coming her way?
15 MS. ELLER: Typically, just a few -- you
16 have a compliance period -- a reasonable amount
17 of time. You know, I would -- I would say that
18 they wouldn't go longer than another 30 days to
19 comply and then they'd start issuing citations,
20 and they can issue them each day as a separate
21 violation.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: So she'll start getting
23 fined in -- we gave her 36 months, so 37,
24 38 months?
25 MS. ELLER: Correct.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We're at the
2 understanding --
3 MR. WEBB: (Inaudible.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the Joost
5 amendment signify -- as Ms. Eller stated it --
6 signify by saying aye.
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Anybody opposed?
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 MR. JOOST: Move to grant the waiver with
11 the Joost amendment.
12 MR. WEBB: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
14 to grant the waiver with the Joost amendment.
15 Ms. Simpson, I want to make sure that you
16 understand what all this is.
17 (Ms. Simpson approaches the podium.)
18 MS. SIMPSON: Thirty-six months I have to
19 change out the windows and spend $23,000 on
20 windows -- or whatever the price is at that
21 time -- to make historic happy.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Between now and roughly 37
23 months --
24 MS. SIMPSON: What I would like to do is,
25 if -- since we're going this route, why don't we
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1 say "upon sale"? Because as soon as the market
2 comes back, it's being sold. As soon as I could
3 sell it -- you're more than welcome to buy it.
4 Historic can buy it anytime. It's for sale.
5 When it sells, I could change out those
6 windows because what I'll do is I'll just take
7 $23,000 off the price of the sale.
8 I'm afraid, I'm afraid. What happens if I
9 don't have that money then? What do I do? Who
10 knows when this market is coming back.
11 My financial man, the one that supports
12 this, he had a business, a huge business, with
13 200 people. He's let 150 people go. He's down
14 to 50 people and he's drowning and he's losing
15 everything he has. I don't see it coming back
16 that fast. I'm hoping he doesn't go under
17 completely.
18 You know, I mean, this is -- it's very,
19 very bad. There's people -- thousands of people
20 without a job out there. I don't know when this
21 is coming back. When it comes back, I don't
22 have a problem with it. If I could sell it, I
23 would take $23,000 off the price.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I think this committee tried
25 to find some sort of a compromise. You have to
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1 appreciate where the historic people are coming
2 from because they shouldn't be the ones that
3 suffer because the disconnect wasn't with them,
4 and so -- but they're trying to get to a
5 rational spot.
6 My only suggestion to you would be --
7 depending on where things are in 36 months, come
8 back and plead your case. You know --
9 MS. SIMPSON: Can we come back and do it
10 again in 36 months if that's the case, if I
11 don't have --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: You'll actually be going
13 through code enforcement. And from there,
14 you're actually going before a judge or somebody
15 else acting in that capacity and so you can tell
16 that story at that time.
17 But basically what this gives you is a
18 three-year reprieve. You know, so hopefully in
19 three years the market will come around, you
20 could sell it or something. If not, then in
21 three years -- you know, I would get copies of
22 these transcripts and take them with you.
23 MS. SIMPSON: I'm going to.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
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1 MS. SIMPSON: Appreciate it.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's open the ballot
3 and record the vote.
4 (Committee ballot opened.)
5 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
10 (Committee ballot closed.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
12 the vote.
13 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
15 approved the appeal as amended, and this is
16 2009-398.
17 That all being said -- Diane, I apologize
18 for going a little late. I thought it was
19 better to finish it than doing all that stuff
20 again.
21 But all that being said --
22 MR. WEBB: Mr. Chairman.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
24 MR. WEBB: I want to thank you for your
25 fine leadership this year. Great job on LUZ.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
2 (Applause.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
4 MR. HOLT: I just wanted to say the same
5 thing. It's been quite a year with things like
6
7 we all want to remember that one.
8 But you did a great job, Mr. Graham, and I
9 think you set a great example for us newbies.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
11 Before we leave, I want to let you all know
12 that one of our lobbyists that comes before us
13 quite a bit, T.R. Hainline, is actually in a
14 play at the beach, and we are thinking about
15 going down and enjoying his acting abilities on
16 Friday.
17 MR. HOLT: Friday?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: It's Friday, and it is --
19 you can purchase tickets online, Players by the
20 Sea, and I believe it starts at 8 o'clock.
21 So for those of you who want to come along,
22 I plan on being there at -- actually, I plan on
23 being there a little early to get prepared for
24 his acting debut.
25 MR. WEBB: My understanding is that a
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1 costar in that is Mr. David Sacks also, a local
2 attorney.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: It may be.
4 MR. WEBB: And the production is, what,
5 The Odd Couple?
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I just want to let you
7 guys know that before we leave.
8 That all being said, I do appreciate staff,
9 all you guys have done. Legislative Services,
10 you guys were flawless. Diane, you're pretty
11 okay yourself too.
12 That all being said, I'm going home.
13 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
14 7:22 p.m.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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3 STATE OF
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
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6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 20th day of June, 2009.
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Diane M.
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