1 CITY OF JACKSONVILLE
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, May 19, 2009,
7 commencing at 5:05 p.m., City Hall, Council Chambers,
8 1st Floor,
9 Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of
10
11
12 PRESENT:
13 ART GRAHAM, Chair.
REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
14 JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
RAY HOLT, Committee Member.
15 JACK WEBB, Committee Member.
DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
16
17 ALSO PRESENT:
18 JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
19 KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.
20
RICK CAMPBELL, Research Assistant.
21 MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
22
- - -
23
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 May 19, 2009 5:05 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everybody.
5 Let the record show it is Tuesday,
6 May 19th, it's about 5:00ish, and this is the
7 Land Use and Zoning Committee.
8 If we could start on the end with
9 Mr. Crofts, let's introduce ourselves.
10 MR. CROFTS: John Crofts, Planning and
11 Development Department.
12 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford, Planning and
13 Development Department.
14 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
15 Development Department.
16 MS. ELLER: Shannon Eller, General
17 Counsel's Office.
18 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4,
19 councilman.
20 DR. GAFFNEY: Councilman Gaffney,
21 District 7, councilman.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm Art Graham, District 13.
23 MR. WEBB: Jack Webb, District 6, Mandarin.
24 MR. BROWN: Reginald Brown, District 10.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Let the record show that we
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
3
1 have an excused absence for Stephen Joost.
2 And Jack Webb is here.
3 Are we going to take up those things that
4 you asked to be deferred, seeing that you're now
5 here?
6 MR. WEBB: I'm going to request that they
7 be deferred one more cycle.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: The infamous "one more
9 cycle."
10 Top of page 2. 2006-24 is deferred.
11 2008-541 is deferred. 2008-542 is deferred.
12 Top of page 3. 2008-549 is deferred and
13 -550 is deferred.
14 Bottom of page 3. 2003-552 [sic]. We will
15 open the public hearing.
16 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
17 public hearing and take no further action.
18 Top of page 4. 2008-880 is deferred.
19 2009-12 is deferred. 2009-50 is deferred.
20 Top of page 5. 2009-91. We will open that
21 public hearing.
22 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
23 public hearing and take no further action.
24 2009-161. We will open that public
25 hearing.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Robert White.
2 (Mr. White approaches the podium.)
3 MR. WHITE: Robert White, Taylor & White,
4 8936 Western Way, Suite 190, Jacksonville,
5 Florida 32225.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you here just for
7 questions only, sir?
8 MR. WHITE: Just for questions only.
9 Appreciate your support.
10 Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
12 We will close that public hearing.
13 MR. WEBB: Move the bill.
14 MR. BROWN: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
16 seconded.
17 Any discussion on the bill?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
20 ballot.
21 (Committee ballot opened.)
22 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
24 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
4 the vote.
5 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
7 approved 2009-161.
8 2009-162 [sic]. We will open that public
9 hearing.
10 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
11 public hearing.
12 (Mr. Holt enters the proceedings.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: -192. I'm sorry. We will
14 continue that public hearing and take no further
15 action.
16 2009-252. We'll open that public hearing.
17 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
18 public hearing and take no action.
19 Let the record show that Councilmember Holt
20 has joined us.
21 Welcome, sir.
22 Top of page 6. 2009-253. We'll open the
23 public hearing.
24 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
25 public hearing and take no action.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 -254. We will defer that.
2 -287. We will open the public hearing.
3 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
4 public hearing, take no action.
5 -288. Open the public hearing and
6 continue that, take no action.
7 Top of page 7. 2009-324. We will open
8 that public hearing.
9 Tom Ingram.
10 (Mr. Ingram approaches the podium.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you look like you're
12 here for questions only.
13 MR. INGRAM: Yes, sir, I am.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: You are a good man.
15 Seeing no further speakers, we will close
16 that public hearing.
17 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
18 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
20 and seconded.
21 Can we hear the amendment, please.
22 MR. CROFTS: The amendment is as follows.
23 There are three conditions. They are:
24 Number 1, "The development shall be subject
25 to the original legal description dated
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1 March 23rd, 2009."
2 Number 2, "The development shall be subject
3 to the revised written description dated
4 May 7th, 2009."
5 Number 3, "The development shall be subject
6 to the original site plan dated March 23rd,
7 2009."
8 That's it.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ingram, are you fine
10 with that?
11 MR. INGRAM: Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Let the record show that he
13 is signifying he is.
14 All in favor of the amendment signify by
15 saying aye.
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
20 the amendment.
21 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
22 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
24 seconded as amended.
25 Any discussion on the bill?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
3 ballot.
4 (Committee ballot opened.)
5 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
7 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
11 (Committee ballot closed.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
13 the vote.
14 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
16 approved -324.
17 2009-325. We will open that public
18 hearing.
19 We have Paul Crawford.
20 (Mr. Crawford approaches the podium.)
21 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, sir.
22 To the Chair and the committee members,
23 Paul Crawford, 1 West Adams, JEDC.
24 I wanted to first introduce this. We spoke
25 about it two weeks ago. This legislation
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1 restricts the location of cell phones -- pay
2 phones to private property and eliminates them
3 from locating on public right-of-way and from
4 parks.
5 The legislation -- the purpose of the
6 legislation was brought about by a safety
7 committee that was established by the JEDC,
8 Downtown Vision, Inc., JSO, JEA, and Public
9 Works.
10 At the time, the committee identified pay
11 phones as just one of the issues that bring a
12 stigma to the city's downtown. The pay phones
13 currently provide for an opportunity for
14 loitering, some nuisance activity, such as
15 panhandling, and is a hindrance to our JSO from
16 enforcing loitering laws.
17 That being said, I have provided at each
18 one of your positions a copy of a map that
19 identifies all of the pay phones, both in public
20 areas that are inside buildings, as well as in
21 right-of-ways.
22 I've also identified areas where there are
23 social service providers, and the ones that
24 are -- provide phone access are indicated by the
25 orange triangle. The ones that are -- do not
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 have public phone access are provided [sic] by
2 the blue triangle.
3 What I'm trying to demonstrate in this
4 graphic is that there are ample pay phones
5 throughout the city in private areas as well as
6 public areas, such as the City of Jacksonville
7 buildings. In fact, many of you don't know that
8 there are two right around the corner here.
9 So there are ample provisions for public
10 pay phones, and those locations are in areas
11 where we can go ahead and have identified
12 security and locate and identify who uses them
13 and make sure that they're in a condition that
14 is something that you or I would use.
15 With that being said, I'd like to introduce
16 Karen Nasrallah to go over some of the details
17 about economic development as it relates to pay
18 phones in -- in the downtown in general.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening,
21 Mr. Chairman, members of the committee.
22 Karen Nasrallah, JEDC staff.
23 As you heard me say two weeks ago, this
24 issue is really about fulfilling our downtown
25 action plan, and the goals and objectives of
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1 that plan is to make downtown more walkable, to
2 make it a destination, to make it a
3 neighborhood, and to ensure a framework for
4 sustainable success.
5 As a redevelopment manager for downtown, my
6 real challenge is not only in the vertical
7 development, which we have started to do a
8 little bit better job at, but also in the
9 horizontal development, where the City really
10 hasn't done the greatest job.
11 When you get out on the streets, our
12 streetscaping isn't the best for pedestrian
13 traffic. We have obstacles when dealing with
14 horizontal -- and that's been brought to our
15 attention by developers from outside of the city
16 who came to look at Jacksonville for potential
17 development.
18 In order to grow downtown, we have to
19 create critical mass. And in order to create
20 critical mass, we have to have a residential
21 component of downtown. Without that residential
22 component, we are not going to have retail and
23 we are not going to have businesses that want to
24 relocate in our downtown.
25 We've heard it before, retail follows
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1 rooftops. In order to create that critical mass
2 and attract the people into downtown to make it
3 their neighborhood, we are going to have to make
4 it walkable, we're going to have to make it
5 safe, we are going to have to have people feel
6 comfortable in our downtown, and right now the
7 perception is it's not safe.
8 So our downtown action plan addresses those
9 issues, as does our downtown zoning overlay, and
10 it speaks to the streetscape and what is
11 acceptable in streetscape for successful
12 downtowns and friendly pedestrian environments.
13 Therefore, this is one detail, and the devil is
14 in the details when it comes to downtown.
15 When you are out walking the streets of
16 downtown, it's a little different than when
17 you're driving in the suburbs because you
18 experience things person-to-person, first on.
19 When you're in your car driving through a
20 neighborhood, you drive by things. You don't
21 notice pavers that are missing, you don't notice
22 fixtures on the street, and you might not notice
23 a homeless person. But when you are out on the
24 street with them one-on-one, face-to-face, it
25 makes a difference, and that's what makes
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1 downtown unique. It is a unique neighborhood.
2 Its approach must be unique.
3 In our downtown zoning overlay that this
4 council approved by ordinance 2003-627 and
5 ordinance 2007-564, you said, "In order to
6 promote a mixed-use development in downtown, it
7 is necessary to create a downtown overlay zone
8 which gives special consideration to certain
9 uses and design considerations due to the unique
10 characteristics of downtown."
11 What I'm asking for you to do is to support
12 this legislation because it's one detail in
13 addressing the uniqueness of our downtown.
14 Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
16 Lieutenant Mike.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Mike Bruno.
19 I'm a lieutenant with the Jacksonville Sheriff's
20 Office, 501 East Bay Street.
21 The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office supports
22 this initiative with JEDC. As Karen spoke of
23 two weeks ago -- we discussed this, so I don't
24 want to rehash all of that, but this legislation
25 will assist us in addressing nuisance crimes as
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1 well as other issues in the downtown area.
2 We've talked about the drug activity, the
3 loitering, the panhandling, all of those
4 nuisance activities that we see every day on the
5 street level when we're walking down the
6 sidewalk. Because of the way the city is
7 designed, the flat landscape, you can see a
8 block away the nuisance activity. It's always
9 right there on the forefront, and this is a
10 piece of the puzzle that's going to help us
11 address these issues and to take one step closer
12 to making the difference that JEDC and so many
13 other people are working towards.
14 For me as a law enforcement officer and for
15 all of my brother and sister officers, this is
16 about accountability. And we talked about this
17 a couple of weeks ago, but these pay phones that
18 are out there, that have been there forever, not
19 permitted, they don't know who -- they're
20 actually not paying the individual for the
21 phone -- there's no accountability from a law
22 enforcement aspect when there's issues there.
23 There's no way to get a complainant.
24 There's no way to address the issues because
25 it's just out there on the street. And other
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1 than the law enforcement and the other people
2 that are in this room, a lot of people don't
3 care. The phone is just there, they're not
4 taking steps to address this issue, and tonight
5 is a huge opportunity for everyone to step
6 forward and address this issue.
7 So we're -- JSO, JEDC, DVI, we're all
8 counting on everybody's support to move this
9 initiative forward and to clean up the downtown.
10 Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
12 James.
13 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you. Good evening.
15 James Brunet with the Jacksonville
16 Sheriff's Office.
17 I'll be very brief because I really can't
18 say it much better than Paul, Karen, and Mike
19 have already said it.
20 Downtown is safe if you look at the crime
21 stats, but it doesn't feel safe. And part of
22 the reason it doesn't feel safe is because of
23 the nuisance activity, and there's no denying
24 the fact that pay phones are a large contributor
25 of nuisance activity. Not only do they attract
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1 it, but they offer it safe haven. They offer it
2 a place to linger and loiter where the sheriff's
3 office could do nothing about it.
4 It is for that reason that we approached
5 JEDC and asked them to undertake that initi- --
6 this initiative, to remove the pay phones in
7 downtown, not throughout the entire city, but in
8 downtown, because, as Karen pointed out,
9 downtown is a unique environment. And in that
10 unique environment pay phones on the City's
11 rights-of-way have no lawful place, they have no
12 legitimate place, and we do not need them.
13 We ask you for your support of this bill,
14 and I thank you for your time.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
16 We have Bruce Renard for questions.
17 We'll call you down if we have any
18 questions.
19 Jucoby Pittman.
20 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Jucoby, welcome.
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you.
23 Jucoby Pittman, the CEO and president of
24 the Clara White Mission.
25 I'm here today because I'm just hoping we
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1 can come up with clarification as well as a
2 compromise. As you all know, I represent the
3 homeless and disadvantaged, but I also believe
4 in economic development.
5 When I first heard about this ordinance, I
6 heard that all of the phones downtown -- pay
7 phones were being disbanded from downtown. I
8 thought that was unacceptable because for a lot
9 of our clients and lot of the other clients that
10 visit other nonprofits in the downtown area,
11 their way of communication with family members
12 or to get in contact with -- having appointments
13 and so forth is that they use pay phones.
14 Now, during the day a lot of the clients or
15 homeless use the phones that are available in
16 the agencies. But after hours, those
17 individuals that are not engaged in anyone's
18 program, they may have a need to use pay
19 phones. And I'm just hoping that the phones
20 that are causing the discomfort in the downtown
21 area -- I don't have a problem with those phones
22 being removed, but I do have a problem with all
23 phones being removed.
24 I did receive a list of phones that were
25 being considered for removal in the downtown
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1 area. I can tell you that some of those phones
2 that I know of personally have been an issue,
3 but -- not only for the homeless, you know, I'm
4 thinking -- you know, you come down Union
5 Street, which is the thoroughfare of
6 Jacksonville, and someone breaks down and they
7 don't have a cell phone -- and, you know, you're
8 talking about a homeless shelter that's right
9 there, which in three -- three-block area -- and
10 a lot of people are uncomfortable with that.
11 So just in case an emergency happens, I'm
12 hoping that you-all, as a council, that you will
13 work with both of the organizations to come up
14 with a plan that is feasible not only for the
15 community but for the low income and homeless
16 people that are in this community.
17 I think there is a way -- as you all know,
18 we just can't put poor people out of sight, out
19 of mind. You can't do that. And if we don't
20 have someone that speak up for them at the
21 table, a lot of times their issues won't get
22 addressed.
23 So I will say that I am all for phones that
24 are causing issues downtown to be removed, but I
25 also feel like, strategically, phones need to be
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1 put in areas near nonprofits and/or in the
2 downtown areas as folks are coming through our
3 city.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Jucoby, hold on. We have a
5 question for you.
6 MS. PITTMAN: Yes.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Councilmember Brown.
8 MR. BROWN: Through the Chair to
9 Ms. Pittman, how many public pay phones do you
10 have in your facility?
11 MS. PITTMAN: We don't have any pay phones
12 in Clara White Mission. We have one across the
13 street, which is on the corner of Ashley and
14 Broad Street, and we have one on the corner of
15 Union and Broad Street, if I can -- I think
16 that's Broad Street.
17 MR. BROWN: Okay. Well, that negates the
18 second question.
19 I guess I need to find out whether or not,
20 then, whether those two pay phones -- what
21 impact, if those phones are removed, would have
22 on the --
23 MS. PITTMAN: Oh, it would be a big impact.
24 I mean, I -- you know, we just don't serve
25 folks that live at the mission, but for folks
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1 who are not engaged in our program or Trinity
2 Mission or City Rescue Mission.
3 Several of the agency directors and I had
4 this conversation last week, and we all agree
5 that if there is a strategic plan that is put
6 together, that it needs -- some of the pay
7 phones need to stay in place, and that everybody
8 shouldn't be punished for, you know, the actions
9 of very few people.
10 I looked up one day, there was a pay phone
11 across the street from the mission. It used to
12 be Perks. I'm sure y'all remember Perks that
13 used to be on the corner. I'm not really sure
14 how the pay got there. I'm not really sure --
15 the guidelines or what it takes to get a pay
16 phone, but it was there one day -- and I want to
17 say probably, you know, less than a year ago it
18 was there, but it was a need, you know.
19 And I was just thinking, you know, the
20 folks that use the Clara White Mission's phones,
21 you know, they can use it during the daytime,
22 but they also tell me there's a need on the
23 weekends. You know, so that was something I
24 didn't think of.
25 But there is illegal activity that
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1 happens.
2 MR. BROWN: Right.
3 Okay. My other question -- because I know
4 that you run programs. I'm familiar with your
5 programs.
6 MS. PITTMAN: Uh-huh.
7 MR. BROWN: Is there any interruptions by
8 allowing nonmembers of your programs to come in
9 and ask to utilize your phones during the course
10 of the day, business hours?
11 MS. PITTMAN: No. I mean, because we have
12 a drop-in center that is open from about 7:30 in
13 the morning till about 4:30 in the afternoon,
14 but we're not open to the public on the
15 weekends.
16 MR. BROWN: Okay. And after 4:30?
17 MS. PITTMAN: After 4:30 they have to use
18 the pay phones.
19 MR. BROWN: Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Jucoby, I actually have a
21 question for you. You don't have any pay phones
22 inside? Is there a reason why you don't have
23 any pay phones, and would you consider having
24 pay phones inside?
25 MS. PITTMAN: Well, because we actually
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1 have three lines available for clients to use
2 while they're at the mission --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
4 MS. PITTMAN: -- during business hours.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thanks.
6 Mr. Redman.
7 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
8 Ms. Pittman, is there anywhere on y'all's
9 property that you would allow a pay phone on
10 that private property to be installed?
11 MS. PITTMAN: I would consider that.
12 I mean, the phone that's there, that's in
13 the same vicinity, is right across the street.
14 MR. REDMAN: Okay. But --
15 MS. PITTMAN: You mean inside --
16 MR. REDMAN: Are there locations on your
17 property, possibly outside, where they could get
18 to it on a weekend or in the evening --
19 MS. PITTMAN: Sure.
20 MR. REDMAN: -- that if they were to
21 request that --
22 MS. PITTMAN: Sure.
23 MR. REDMAN: -- and pay y'all to have the
24 phone there, that you would allow that?
25 MS. PITTMAN: Absolutely.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Gaffney.
3 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 Yes, Ms. Pittman. Just a question here.
5 Maybe it's not even a fair question, but I know
6 you have years of experience in dealing with
7 this population.
8 In your opinion, would you think that a lot
9 of the other nonprofit agencies would share some
10 of the same sentiment as far as allowing pay
11 phones on their property or they have a drop-in
12 center as well or -- in other words, I'm trying
13 to get a feel for the nonprofit agencies,
14 individuals in your position, how they feel
15 about the phone.
16 We've heard what you have said, but in your
17 professional opinion, do you feel that a lot of
18 the other agencies would express the same --
19 MS. PITTMAN: Would support that?
20 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes.
21 MS. PITTMAN: Absolutely.
22 I mean, I -- Audrey Moran and Pat Hannon,
23 Patrick Hale and I had this conversation, as I
24 said, a few weeks ago because we were very
25 concerned. I mean, the information that we got
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1 and the phone calls we got basically said that
2 all of the phones would be removed.
3 Since then, I have learned that -- we all
4 have learned, because we've had this discussion
5 before I came here. I'm representing those
6 organizations -- before coming here tonight is
7 that we agree that those phones that are causing
8 issues should be removed, but don't punish, you
9 know, all of the organizations or perhaps
10 having, strategically, phones.
11 I don't mind calling the police if there's
12 a problem with illegal activity going on, and
13 I'm sure the other agencies share that same
14 sentiment as well.
15 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
17 MS. PITTMAN: Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Terry Lorince.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. Good evening,
21 Councilman Graham.
22 I'm Terry Lorince, the executive director
23 of Downtown Vision.
24 And just briefly, to summarize, we are the
25 advocacy organization for downtown
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Jacksonville. Our board of directors has
2 unanimously supported this legislation which
3 would prohibit pay phones in the public
4 right-of-way.
5 We had our ambassadors go and take a survey
6 to find out how many phones would remain
7 downtown as a result -- this legislation does
8 not touch. We have ten locations only in the
9 North Bank core. We didn't go to LaVilla. We
10 didn't go to the station. Ten locations with
11 32 phones would remain in the North Bank. On
12 the South Bank, five locations with six
13 different phones would remain.
14 In addition, we called the social service
15 providers down here, asked them if they had a
16 pay phone or had access to a pay phone. Seven
17 of them, while they do not have a pay phone,
18 said that their clients are able to use their
19 phones.
20 With this information, we think that there
21 is sufficient access for people that need access
22 to a pay phone in the downtown, and we ask for
23 your support of this legislation so that we can
24 better control the downtown streets and the
25 nuisance activities downtown.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 I also have a document that I'd like to
2 submit as backup on our testimony.
3 Thank you very much.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on a second. We've got
5 a question for you.
6 Councilman Brown.
7 MR. BROWN: Through the Chair, we talk
8 about removing the pay phones from the -- that's
9 your vision, to remove the pay phones -- one of
10 your visions -- from the public right-of-way.
11 We're going to replace those phones with
12 emergency phones, and where would those phones
13 go?
14 MS. LORINCE: Karen, do you want to address
15 that?
16 Karen and the JEDC have been working on
17 that proposal, Councilman.
18 (Ms. Nasrallah approaches the podium.)
19 MS. NASRALLAH: Through the Chair, the
20 safety committee, DVI -- a member of DVI, the
21 JSO and I have gotten together with the map of
22 downtown and we looked at the corridors that
23 were the most heavily traveled and the areas
24 with the most visitors and likely need for
25 phones.
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1 We have marked where 15 phones would go on
2 both the South Bank and the North Bank Riverwalk
3 and in certain areas of downtown that made sense
4 to visitor and pedestrian residential traffic,
5 however -- I am crafting that RFP as we speak.
6 We've got budget limitations and, therefore, I
7 am going to be restricted to grants. So I am
8 researching grant opportunities for that
9 initiative, and if we can secure a grant for a
10 larger amount of money, we can maybe go more
11 than 15 phones.
12 MR. BROWN: Okay. In the event we're not
13 successful -- second question -- receiving
14 grants, will we -- will you come to the City and
15 ask the City to incur this expense?
16 MS. NASRALLAH: I would have to -- through
17 the Chair, I would have to go to the executive
18 director and have him make that call.
19 MR. BROWN: Is that --
20 MS. NASRALLAH: I think it would be a
21 likely --
22 MR. BROWN: -- Paul?
23 MS. NASRALLAH: I would have to defer to
24 the executive director of the JEDC.
25 We understand that 911 is -- access to 911
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 is very important and are trying to work to
2 secure phones -- emergency phones in the area.
3 However, in lieu of that -- right now, the
4 situation with the pay phones is so -- it's at
5 the point now where it's at a -- it's just at a
6 breaking point, and we've got to take care of
7 that first.
8 There are 12 phone areas that phones are
9 going to come out of that -- there's still
10 plenty of public phones out there for people to
11 use, and we will work as quickly as we possible
12 [sic] to secure emergency phones for the
13 downtown area.
14 MR. BROWN: Okay. My second question,
15 then -- you're absolutely right. I did notice
16 that we're moving towards private companies
17 having the responsibility to manage public pay
18 phones. Does that put them in a position -- the
19 private companies, if they decide to say we
20 don't want the public pay phones because of the
21 influx of traffic and they decide to -- let's
22 say all of them decide eventually we're going to
23 move these phones because of the traffic that we
24 now have, where would that leave us in terms of
25 options, in terms of public pay phones,
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1 accessibility to public pay phones?
2 MR. CRAWFORD: Through the Chair to
3 Councilman Brown, to your first point, locating
4 911 phones throughout downtown, our mission
5 statement is to make sure that downtown is safe
6 and secure as well as clean, so that is one of
7 our top priorities. So if we cannot locate
8 funding via grants, we will enter it into the
9 CIP and request funding through the standard CIP
10 process.
11 The second question that you asked, the
12 same could be said about the increase in the
13 number of phones. Your scenario posed the
14 question, what if they took phones away? What
15 if they added phones additionally?
16 We aren't governing phones in private
17 properties. That's up to the private property
18 and the pay phone provider. They have various
19 negotiated contracts that share profits
20 depending on where they're located.
21 If it becomes unprofitable for either or
22 both to not put pay phones, I don't know that we
23 can go ahead and mandate that there be public
24 pay phones in various locations on private
25 property.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. BROWN: Okay. So from the JEDC's
2 vantage point, what's the City's
3 responsibility?
4 I know you have your vision. What's the
5 City's responsibility for ensuring that pay
6 phones -- public pay phones are accessible in
7 the downtown area?
8 MR. CRAWFORD: Through the Chair to
9 Councilman Brown, we currently have pay phones
10 in all of our public buildings. This building,
11 again, has two right around the corner.
12 The City Hall annex, the City -- or the
13 county courthouse, the county courthouse annex,
14 the jail. We have public pay phones in a
15 variety of different locations throughout the
16 city that the City has requested be installed
17 and we would anticipate that those still remain.
18 MR. BROWN: Okay. Then my last question --
19 because the City government closes on holidays
20 at 5 p.m. What will be available in terms of
21 what the City will provide? Not the private
22 companies in the downtown area, what would the
23 City provide in terms of access?
24 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm not certain as to the
25 question.
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1 If there is a building that is open, that
2 is a City building, then they would have access
3 to those pay phones.
4 MR. BROWN: My question is --
5 (Simultaneous speaking.)
6 MR. CRAWFORD: (Inaudible), for instance --
7 MR. BROWN: If I could help you.
8 My question -- we'll use -- this particular
9 building closes at 6 o'clock access, weekends,
10 holidays. This is not available to individuals
11 that is in need of a pay phone. My question is,
12 when buildings are not open -- City buildings
13 are not open, what is it that we're doing --
14 I hate to put the responsibility on private
15 companies, so what are we doing as the JEDC to
16 make sure that the City is addressing this issue
17 and providing services -- the City -- to
18 individuals that need pay phones during
19 nonoperational hours?
20 MR. CRAWFORD: What we are doing is we are
21 funding the Downtown Vision, Inc., through our
22 budget process. Downtown Vision, Inc., deploys
23 14 ambassadors in the evenings, and they will
24 guide an individual who needs a pay phone to one
25 that is located in the core.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 For instance, if this building wasn't open
2 and I needed to use a pay phone, you can walk
3 six blocks and go right to the Greyhound station
4 where they have 16 pay phones that is in this
5 graphic with pictures, and it shows a bank of
6 16 pay phones. It will give you a variety of
7 different paying sources and it has security so
8 that you're safe.
9 So there are a variety of different
10 alternatives that the DVI, through our funding,
11 will go ahead and make sure that you get to a
12 pay phone.
13 MR. BROWN: Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on. First of all, let
15 me close the public hearing.
16 Hold tight.
17 Dr. Gaffney.
18 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 Just one question here. I want to get a
20 little clarity.
21 So it's my understanding, the companies
22 will continue -- they would not be limited in
23 adding additional phones that they deem that can
24 be profitable for them? We're just primary
25 interested in ones that are considered a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 nuisance?
2 MR. CRAWFORD: Through the Chair, yes,
3 sir.
4 DR. GAFFNEY: On City property?
5 MR. CRAWFORD: On City right-of-way.
6 DR. GAFFNEY: Right.
7 So they still will have accessibility with
8 the private partnerships to --
9 MR. CRAWFORD: Through the Chair, yes, sir,
10 in City facilities and on private property.
11 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: I actually have a question.
13 It appears -- and maybe I'm missing some of
14 this, but it appears the nuisance is mainly --
15 not necessarily people making calls out of
16 necessity or by emergency, but people basically
17 loitering by the phones, claiming that they're
18 waiting on a phone call; is that correct?
19 MR. CRAWFORD: Through the Chair, yes, sir.
20 The JSO can elaborate if you'd like.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: So if there is a way to fix
22 it so there's no incoming calls but only
23 outgoing calls, would that solve the problem
24 both ways?
25 So, then, therefore, nobody is no longer
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1 waiting on a phone call because it is not -- it
2 does not have the ability to receive phone
3 calls.
4 (Mr. Bruno approaches the podium.)
5 MR. BRUNO: That's been addressed several
6 times through several different phones, and it's
7 not the fix-all.
8 It's kind of like -- I don't have a good
9 analogy here, but if you take that excuse away,
10 I'll give you another one. "I called somebody;
11 I'm waiting for my ride; they're going to meet
12 me here," or "I called somebody" -- there's a
13 variety of excuses that -- when you take that
14 away from them, they'll just come up with
15 another one. It's not the -- it's a Band-Aid on
16 an arterial bleeding is really what it is if you
17 just block the incoming phone calls.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, how is it any
19 different if somebody calls somebody with their
20 cell phone that said they're going to meet me
21 here?
22 MR. BRUNO: Well, because a cell phone is
23 mobile, and so if they are loitering or blocking
24 the sidewalk or creating an issue, then they can
25 call that person back and meet somewhere else.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 I mean, it's just -- it's -- as far as the
2 cell phones, it's their personal cell phone.
3 They can call from anywhere, from any corner or
4 anything as opposed to a fixed position, which
5 is what we run into with the pay phones, and --
6 you know, like I said, they're going to come up
7 with a variety of reasons.
8 MR. CRAWFORD: If I might, too, it's not
9 just that it's a security or safety issue as
10 well. I've made the analogy before. If you
11 walk by a pay phone that is on the edge of the
12 right-of-way, it protrudes two feet, then you
13 have an individual standing up next to it. And
14 if they're standing up very close to it, they
15 only occupy two feet, so that's four feet. Then
16 you have an area where you aren't going to walk
17 right up next to them, you're going to walk
18 around them, which is another two feet. That
19 means that you have six feet taken of the
20 sidewalk, and the majority of the sidewalks in
21 downtown are ten feet wide. So, therefore, it
22 allows for four feet of passerby traffic around
23 a pay phone in the right-of-way.
24 That's another physical constraint that
25 it -- that can be applied to the sidewalk, and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 thus multiple people walking by will be hampered
2 by a pay phone sitting on the edge of the
3 right-of-way.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we have 4-foot
5 sidewalks all over the beach and people don't
6 have problems walking on those sidewalks.
7 MR. CRAWFORD: I would argue that you don't
8 have a building up adjacent to it, you don't
9 have the street adjacent to that.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Reggie Brown.
11 MR. BROWN: What we have here -- so we
12 are -- we move forward, just say that we agree
13 to remove all the pay phones, then will we now
14 move the newsstands, the sidewalk cafes, and
15 vendors? Is that our intent?
16 MR. CRAWFORD: That's a very good question,
17 Councilman Brown.
18 It is our intent to go ahead and begin
19 looking -- and we have -- at locating all of the
20 newspaper materials, and that is, the free
21 publications as well as the paid publications,
22 into what they call a condominium box, which is
23 a line of boxes that might be four on the top
24 and four on the bottom so that no longer do you
25 have the orange or the pink or the blue or the
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37
1 yellow plastic containers that often are totally
2 empty and are often blown away or moved. We go
3 ahead and put out condo boxes for those
4 publications to locate in.
5 So that's just one of the issues.
6 MR. BROWN: Okay. What about the sidewalk
7 cafes where they have the table there, then the
8 vendors?
9 MR. CRAWFORD: There are permitted uses.
10 There are criteria established for the location
11 of those in association with the restaurant.
12 The restaurants are required to move those
13 tables and chairs after closure. They bring
14 them back out when they are open.
15 They're considered an asset to your
16 downtown because they provide for a person to
17 sit and eat outside of an establishment where
18 the establishment is responsible for the
19 cleaning, the maintenance, and the people who
20 utilize those particular facilities.
21 MR. BROWN: Okay. But I thought what we
22 were talking about -- and this will be my last
23 question.
24 I thought what we were talking about was
25 impeding movement of traffic, and I can tell you
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
38
1 that walking around vendors -- and I'm very glad
2 to walk around them -- and also sidewalk
3 cafes -- I haven't personally experienced the --
4 walking around a pay phone, but I think all of
5 this is what makes downtown. I think if you
6 look throughout the nation --
7 And my question, then, becomes with JEDC,
8 have we looked at what other cities are doing to
9 address this concern? Because the things that
10 we're talking about removing from downtown is
11 what make downtown what it is.
12 That's my last and final question.
13 MR. CRAWFORD: To Councilman Brown, yes,
14 sir, we have looked at other cities.
15 The City of Miami has restricted the
16 location of pay phones. We have looked at other
17 cities, such as New York, in the reference that
18 you made with regards to condo boxing of
19 materials. That's what they're doing.
20 We are echoing some of the best practices
21 that are throughout the nation to go ahead and
22 create an atmosphere that we are aspiring to,
23 such as a Charleston, such as a Savannah, such
24 as a Charlotte.
25 Additionally, we're going to be moving on
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
39
1 with wayfaring signage so that we can go ahead
2 and identify where things are, such as the
3 Landing, such as the courthouse, such as other
4 facilities that we need to have people move via
5 foot and not via vehicle.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: The question I have for you,
7 are we not going to remove the pay phones until
8 we have the 911 emergency phones in place,
9 installed?
10 MR. CRAWFORD: I believe that we are going
11 to move the pay phones before the 911 phones are
12 installed.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: So what happens between the
14 time when they pull the pay phones down and
15 before we find the grants to install the 911
16 phones?
17 MR. CRAWFORD: We're going to utilize the
18 pay phones that are existing through the city,
19 whether it be in this building or in other
20 buildings, such as the Greyhound station or such
21 as the Hyatt or Omni or the Hyatt garage or any
22 other -- the Shell station right down the
23 street. So we're going to rely on those.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I have to tell you guys, I
25 support the idea of moving the pay phones. I'm
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1 not sure we're ready. And I know there's the
2 issue of, as you said, the newspaper stands and
3 some of the other things that are out there. I
4 think we should address all those at one --
5 because if the argument is getting things off
6 the public right-of-way, then I think we need to
7 address all the things that are on the public
8 right-of-way that may be considered a nuisance
9 or not a nuisance.
10 And the reason why I say that is because I
11 don't want to let this bill come out of here and
12 for us to have five debates on the council floor
13 and it comes back to LUZ because we didn't do
14 our work here. And I can't speak for the rest
15 of the committee, but I'm not sure that we have
16 everything that we need done done.
17 MR. WEBB: Move to defer.
18 MR. BROWN: Second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I've got a move to defer and
20 a second and a second.
21 Mr. Redman.
22 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
23 I do support this bill in trying to make
24 downtown a more viable place for, you know,
25 business, pedestrians, and people to come and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 enjoy themselves.
2 You know, the main idea of this is to help
3 the police to keep the people moving around
4 downtown, keep them from loitering at these
5 locations.
6 The biggest problem we have is -- downtown,
7 trying to get people to come to the downtown
8 area, businesses to survive downtown is
9 loitering, people hanging out at places like a
10 phone booth or a telephone and panhandling.
11 So, you know, I feel that this would help
12 the downtown area considerably. Most of these
13 are in my district, a few that are not, but most
14 of them are in my district in the downtown area.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: So, Mr. Redman, you're
17 saying you're against the deferral?
18 MR. REDMAN: Yes.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Just want to be
20 clear.
21 Mr. Brown.
22 MR. BROWN: Okay. Let me say this in
23 closing, that I do believe that we all have the
24 city's best interest before us in terms of
25 making sure that it's safe and that we remove
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 all the places that may appear to be a nuisance
2 to pedestrians or bypassers.
3 I go without question saying that I do
4 believe that we recognize those things do hinder
5 a city in terms of growth, development, and
6 attract the folks coming here, but I agree with
7 the chairman that we have a lot of work to be
8 done, not just those with JEDC or those that are
9 in opposition with it, but the City.
10 I mean, right now no one can really tell us
11 when phones appear, when they don't appear. I
12 mean, permits are not followed through. And so
13 we have a lot of work to do, and I just think
14 that we need to take the time now to do it
15 right.
16 But I don't want anyone to leave here
17 tonight with the opinion that we do not believe
18 that removing nuisance equipment from the
19 right-of-way is something that we oppose. It's
20 not that. I just think that we need to take the
21 appropriate time, put a team together, those
22 that are in opposition, those that support, and
23 a few other folks that could help create an
24 ordinance and establish policy that's going to
25 help regulate those type of practices.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 I just don't think we've done our job as a
2 city to govern those type of equipment, and so
3 I'm definitely -- at this particular time, I say
4 let's move to defer it and let's -- but don't
5 sit on it. Let's put an active team together to
6 make sure that we can meet the needs of the
7 city, to make Jacksonville what it's supposed to
8 be.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: James, question for you.
10 (Mr. Brunet approaches the podium.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Help me through this.
12 I understand where you guys are coming from
13 and I understand the frustration, but I guess my
14 fear is the unknowns that are still here.
15 If we had a funding source and I knew that
16 we were going to put these 911 phones in here,
17 you know, within a 30-day period, I'd feel a lot
18 more comfortable, but it doesn't sound like we
19 have any funding. And that being the case,
20 there is going to that be window of -- I guess
21 until I get that answer, I don't have that
22 comfort level.
23 And then the other thing is, why aren't
24 we -- and maybe this is for the JEDC. Why
25 aren't we addressing all of the issues or things
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 in the public right-of-way rather than just the
2 phones?
3 And I understand this is the quick, easy
4 one, then we can go to the next one after that,
5 but let's start off with the first one as far as
6 the -- the phones.
7 MR. BRUNET: Well, I certainly understand
8 your concern, Councilman Graham. And certainly
9 when people need to call 911, they need to have
10 the ability to do that.
11 The fact of the matter is there are many
12 pay phones downtown now that aren't going to be
13 affected by this bill that are available for
14 use. There are pay phones, as Paul pointed out,
15 at the Greyhound bus station, for example.
16 That's open 24 hours a day, seven days a week,
17 365 a year. You have the ambassadors provided
18 by JEDC, through DVI, that are there as a
19 resource for people that need assistance. Not
20 only do they have the ability to direct someone
21 to a pay phone if they can't find one, they also
22 have communication devices themselves. Trust me
23 when I tell you that they're not hesitant to
24 call JSO on their cell phones.
25 So there are certainly avenues for people
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 who are in actual need of emergency services to
2 get that assistance.
3 Removing these few pay phones, you're
4 absolutely right, it's just one small piece of
5 the puzzle, and I think we've said that from the
6 outset, but it's a step in the right direction
7 and it's a starting point.
8 And I -- Reginald -- I mean, excuse me,
9 Councilman Brown, I certainly understand your
10 concern also about doing things the right way
11 and trying to look at the big picture, and we
12 absolutely agree with that, but I would ask you
13 not to delay this action in your efforts to look
14 at this issue citywide or to look at other
15 issues downtown.
16 Let's move forward a step at a time because
17 the danger in not taking this step now is that
18 we'll never take any steps.
19 Downtown -- I live downtown. I've lived
20 downtown for six years, and I've been waiting
21 for it to rebound. It hasn't ever done it, and
22 I'm at a loss to explain why that is.
23 We don't have the critical mass of
24 residents we need down here. There's still that
25 feeling of a lack of safety. People don't like
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
46
1 to come downtown because it doesn't feel safe to
2 them.
3 Pay phones are not the biggest evil we have
4 to deal with, but they certainly are a part of
5 the problem, and they're one small part of the
6 problem that we have the ability to fix tonight
7 or two weeks from tonight if we move this bill
8 out of committee.
9 We've explained, I think, to --
10 ad infinitum almost, the problems that they
11 create for the police officers, and I know that
12 you folks understand the issue that we're
13 dealing with there.
14 There's no better way for me to explain it
15 than it's a safe haven for nuisance activity.
16 It's something that we on the street as police
17 officers cannot correct while the phone is
18 there. The only way to correct it is to take
19 the phone out.
20 There are alternate sources of
21 communication for emergencies, ample sources of
22 communication. So, again, there's no
23 justification for having these phones in place
24 now that I can see.
25 I wish I had a source of funding for the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 emergency phones. That would be great. I'm not
2 a grant writer, unfortunately, so I can't offer
3 that to you. I do know that Karen is already
4 writing the RFP and she'll be diligent in
5 pursuing that avenue of communication, and we
6 would all like to see them in place.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not going to pretend to
8 understand the criminal element and the
9 challenges that you guys have with your jobs
10 trying to keep everybody safe. I respect what
11 it is you're trying to do, but there's actually
12 a motion on the floor for deferral.
13 I'll vote against the motion to defer, but
14 doing so I put in here an amendment to make sure
15 that these pay phones don't come out until there
16 is funding for the 911 phone calls because I
17 don't want to see those phones go away before I
18 know there's some other phones coming or some
19 other -- something else to help emergencywise
20 coming.
21 MR. BRUNET: JSO will certainly work with
22 JEDC and any other provider to make sure that
23 those are there. We may also have some
24 opportunity to work with GTL, our contract pay
25 phone provider who provides pay phones at the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 jail and other City facilities, to make that
2 process go quicker. We will certainly work with
3 them on that.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on a second. I've got
5 a -- my queue is lighting up here.
6 Mr. Holt.
7 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you want to speak to the
9 deferral or you want to speak to the bill as a
10 whole?
11 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Hold tight.
13 Mr. Webb.
14 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 It's my motion. I'll withdraw the motion
16 and then I'll go back on the queue to speak on
17 the bill -- I guess we've got to move the bill
18 first.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
20 MR. WEBB: So the motion is withdrawn.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
22 MR. WEBB: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Is the second withdrawn?
24 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Holt.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 We're on the bill.
2 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
3 I wanted to kind of propose the same thing
4 you were just talking about. I'm not sure who
5 would be best to answer this question, but I
6 wanted to hear again more details about the
7 proposal for emergency phones. Would that --
8 Mr. Crawford or Ms. Lorince.
9 (Ms. Nasrallah approaches the podium.)
10 MR. HOLT: Could you go over that again and
11 tell me where and how many emergency phones you
12 guys are proposing.
13 MS. NASRALLAH: Well, when we first started
14 vetting this issue over a year ago -- and we
15 have been working as a team for a year to look
16 at all the parameters of what removing these pay
17 phones means, and we discovered that there are
18 companies out there that do emergency pay
19 phones. You see them on Blue Cross/Blue
20 Shield's campus. You see them on many campuses,
21 UNF, and they're just the -- they're the poles
22 with the lights on the top. They have 911.
23 They are expensive.
24 And through that process, I began writing
25 an RFP for the placement and the equipment and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 the monitoring of those phones. It's an
2 expensive endeavor, but it's worth it, and we
3 believe that it's worth it and value emergency
4 phones.
5 With the downtown safety team, we pulled
6 out a map of downtown and we looked at the
7 entire community redevelopment area boundary and
8 we mapped out -- fifteen phones was about what
9 we thought we could approve or could afford, and
10 they range in price from $1,900 to about $4,500
11 just for the equipment and then you've got
12 installation and that kind of thing.
13 Fifteen was a good number. We mapped them
14 out along the Riverwalk, where they -- where pay
15 phones do not exist, North Bank and South Bank
16 and throughout the downtown and key areas along
17 corridors that are traveled by the residents who
18 live downtown and visitors, event venues and
19 that kind of thing.
20 MR. HOLT: Are those areas part of the same
21 areas that you're removing the pay phones -- or
22 proposing to remove them?
23 MS. NASRALLAH: They are -- some of them --
24 there's some crossover, but in most instances
25 there's not because where the pay phones are
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1 currently located are in obscure places that the
2 emergency phones, it doesn't make sense for them
3 to be where the pay phones currently exist. We
4 looked at both of them side by side.
5 MR. HOLT: Okay. Mr. Chair, I would
6 propose an amendment that we would allow this
7 only when there are at least -- and I would
8 allow someone else to certainly step in there
9 with another number, but I would say at least
10 ten of these emergency phones in place before
11 the other phones can be removed.
12 And I'll put that to you guys if it's okay
13 with you. That would be my amendment, and I'd
14 welcome any other comments to that.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Before I ask for a second, a
16 question for you. How many emergency phones did
17 you say? Did you say 15 or was it more than
18 that?
19 MS. NASRALLAH: Fifteen was what we looked
20 at as like a wish number. We would hope to have
21 fifteen. The likelihood of that is unclear
22 because of what it might cost and what funding
23 might be available, so that was -- fifteen was a
24 good number for the areas we wanted to cover.
25 MR. HOLT: That's their eventual plan, but
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1 I would propose an amendment to force them to
2 hold off on removing these phones until they
3 have at least ten in place. I don't have a
4 second, though.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think what you'll probably
6 go -- this is asking for a friendly amendment --
7 if you change that to -- that they have the
8 funding secured for ten of those phones, so then
9 you're only talking, you know, maybe a couple of
10 weeks before one gets pulled out and the other
11 one gets implemented.
12 MR. HOLT: I would accept that as a
13 friendly amendment.
14 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
16 seconded.
17 Thank you, Mr. Holt.
18 Mr. Webb.
19 MR. WEBB: Through the Chair, I like where
20 Mr. Holt is going, but I'm not so sure that
21 tying it to a specific number is the right way
22 to go.
23 If that's acceptable to JEDC, then that's
24 fine, but my thinking is that not every phone --
25 I mean, every phone is -- phones are in
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1 different spots in the downtown area. I mean,
2 you could have one phone that's sitting outside
3 City Hall or something or in the park over there
4 that's in the public right-of-way, but maybe a
5 half a block from a pay phone that's attached to
6 a -- you know, to private property. So the
7 safety risk -- not all safety risks are created
8 equal is my point.
9 But having said that, again, we could get
10 really bogged down in the details and get in the
11 weeds in this thing trying to craft an
12 amendment, so I guess I'll support the Holt
13 amendment.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
15 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 And I'm -- I agree that -- you know, I
17 think that setting a number of ten is going a
18 little bit too far. For safety reasons, I don't
19 think we need to set that kind of number. I
20 think, you know, we need to be able to -- you
21 know, to be safe and to create the safe
22 situation that we're looking for, I think
23 probably half of that number would probably do
24 the job, but, you know, I think that we just
25 need to ensure that it's going to get started
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1 with whatever number that they can come up with
2 the funding for.
3 Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't have a problem with
5 the number ten. Once again, we're just asking
6 for -- make sure the funding is secure. If they
7 want to start by putting up five of the ten,
8 just as long as they have the funding for the
9 ten, I don't have a problem, so I -- as it is
10 right now, I stand -- I support the Holt
11 amendment.
12 Mr. Brown.
13 MR. BROWN: Okay. I feel that we're -- and
14 I don't want to get bogged down in the weeds of
15 things tonight. This is why I was making the
16 recommendation that we put together a task force
17 and address these -- some of these concerns.
18 I think that, one, to remove current pay
19 phones without -- at this stage, without having
20 secured any funding will put citizens in
21 danger. It's not going to create an environment
22 of safety there.
23 We have folks right now that frequent
24 downtown that can tell you where some of the
25 phones are. I can tell you where some of the
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1 phone are. And so if an emergency was to happen
2 tonight and I walk out and I need a pay phone,
3 if we just move them without replacing them, I
4 think we do more disservice to citizens within
5 the city.
6 But secondly and more importantly, I think
7 what we will allow to happen is the cart to come
8 out before the horse and we open up the gate and
9 the horse will run and we would never get back
10 to really taking care of the business of the
11 city, and this is my biggest fear and this is
12 what we've done far too many times. We say,
13 okay, well, let's just go ahead and move it
14 forward tonight and we'll get back to taking
15 care of business. Well, we never get back to
16 taking care of business. And what ultimately
17 happens is that individuals that are not here,
18 that actually use those services, their interest
19 will go unrecognized.
20 And I said it earlier, I mean, when we look
21 at a policy or an ordinance or a law that's
22 unjust, that's not a law, a policy, or
23 ordinance. It's not that. And so we really
24 need to -- I mean, we try to move fast, and I --
25 I think that if we all just work together and
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1 come up with a win/win situation --
2 I mean, you know, I'm sitting here still
3 trying to figure out why at Metropolitan Park --
4 what right-of-way is impeded there? The park is
5 barely used. And I know that there are probably
6 some folks that will say, well -- that work
7 there, well, we have -- who do we have coming
8 there? I mean, I heard earlier that if we
9 wanted to stop incoming calls -- that will stop
10 that movement, but it would hinder folks that
11 need to use a phone that's using the park if
12 there's an activity there and they need a phone.
13 So, I mean, there's some things that we can
14 do without just saying, we're going to do a
15 blanket statement and make a movement tonight
16 that's going to impact the downtown area, and we
17 have to come back later with an amendment.
18 So all I'm saying is let's not just lock
19 everything in right now. I mean, we can create
20 some options here in the event of -- opposed to
21 just a blanket statement, it's all or nothing.
22 And I think that's where we get into this power
23 push with the haves and have nots, those that
24 oppose, those that are for.
25 And I think that we have a fiduciary duty
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1 to not just look at -- what aspect of this
2 situation. We have to look at the entire
3 thing. And so, again, my -- it's not to say
4 that we're not for it -- I'm going to speak for
5 myself -- not for creating safety, but what I'm
6 hearing tonight is that we're willing to put
7 everybody's safety in jeopardy by moving the
8 phones tonight and let's deal with this later.
9 And so you have to start to question the
10 intent. Is it really to deal with nuisance?
11 Are we talking about a homeless population that
12 we want to move and not fix? I mean, let's take
13 the lid off this situation. Let's really talk
14 about it.
15 I would say this, and I'll be very brief.
16 They have every right to do what they do because
17 we as a city failed to provide the services for
18 them during the day. They come downtown, they
19 use public places because we failed to give them
20 a place to go during the day, so they come out
21 here. But if that's the issue, let's fix it.
22 Don't move the problem because it's going to go
23 somewhere else.
24 And so I say tonight that we as a council,
25 we have an obligation to fix these problems, not
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1 move the problems in another area that's less
2 desirable.
3 So if they don't come here, where do they
4 go? We say they can go to the Greyhound bus
5 station. I can tell you if I was the CEO of the
6 Greyhound station and I started to get an influx
7 of traffic from folks that's not catching the
8 bus using my services and spending money, I'm
9 going to cut it off. And then are you going to
10 ask me, because I'm willing to have 15 phones
11 here, to spend my dollars providing security to
12 do something that we as a city don't want to do
13 ourselves? Let's take some responsibility here,
14 that's all I'm asking, and let's do the right
15 thing.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb.
17 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 We're on the amendment -- the Holt
19 amendment?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
21 MR. WEBB: This is for purposes of
22 clarification.
23 My understanding is that the amendment
24 would require that no phones be removed until
25 such time as funding is in place for the ten
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1 emergency phones; is that correct?
2 THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct.
3 MR. WEBB: All right. So that's just in
4 response to Councilman Brown's concerns.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
6 Mr. Redman.
7 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
8 I would propose we change the amendment to
9 have the JEDC come back at the next meeting with
10 a proposal where they have done a study to show
11 us where the needs would be for these emergency
12 phones and present it to the LUZ so that we can
13 have a better idea of where the need is actually
14 there and -- instead of putting a number with
15 it.
16 Come to us, show us where the need is and
17 the number that is actually needed, and give us
18 an idea -- well, at the same time, when they get
19 the funding down also.
20 When you get the funding tied down and
21 pinpointed where the need really is, come back
22 before LUZ. And, at that time, if you have that
23 funding and the need to show us, then we'll be
24 ready to take the phones out.
25 That's my amendment.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: So it sounds like you're
2 saying you want to defer the bill till they come
3 back with a study?
4 MR. REDMAN: Yes.
5 At that time, if they can show us the need
6 and have the funding tied down -- which would be
7 basically the same thing we're shooting for.
8 Instead of a number, though, they're going to
9 show us a need for -- how many that is really
10 needed.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I -- with all due
12 respect, Mr. Redman, I'm going to default to the
13 law enforcement, and I want to move forward with
14 the amendment. I didn't hear a second on your
15 amendment, so we're still on the Holt
16 amendment.
17 We can go from there if you want to try
18 floating your amendment again, but I think it's
19 something that Mr. Bennett had said that -- we
20 can sit here and try to solve the problems of
21 the world. We don't get anything done. If we
22 don't take this first step, how do we get to the
23 next step? And they've been studying this thing
24 for about a year.
25 I will move forward, as far as I'm
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1 concerned from here, just as long as the Holt
2 amendment passes. If the Holt amendment doesn't
3 pass, then I don't know if I can support the
4 bill because I want to make sure that -- until
5 we know that we have those emergency phones
6 coming, that we're not going to leave people out
7 there with nothing.
8 The other question I have is, the
9 ambassadors, are they working -- do they work
10 throughout the night? Do they work -- what are
11 their hours?
12 (Ms. Lorince approaches the podium.)
13 MS. LORINCE: Councilman, the ambassadors
14 work flexible hours based on the need.
15 Friday nights they're down here till
16 3 o'clock in the morning. They're down here
17 till 11 or 12 o'clock at various nights.
18 This weekend, with the Jazz Festival,
19 they're -- they will be working super overtime.
20 We're here when the people are here.
21 That's our idea. That's how we try to deploy
22 them.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, is your group or the
24 JEDC working forward as far as dealing with the
25 newsstand boxes and some of the other things
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1 that are in the right-of-way and we should see
2 something coming forward with that at a later
3 time?
4 MS. LORINCE: We are working on that with
5 the JEDC and the City.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
7 All right. Well, we're on the Holt bill
8 and my light -- there's nobody in the queue.
9 All in favor of the Holt bill signify by
10 saying aye -- I'm sorry, the Holt amendment
11 signify by saying aye.
12 Aye.
13 MR. HOLT: Aye.
14 MR. WEBB: Aye.
15 MR. REDMAN: Aye.
16 DR. GAFFNEY: Aye.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
18 MR. BROWN: Nay.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: We have one nay, so the Holt
20 amendment passes.
21 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
22 MR. HOLT: Second.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
24 seconded as amended.
25 Mr. Redman, did you want to give another
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1 shot at your amendment or are you good?
2 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
3 The only thing I would suggest would be tie
4 in a study as to -- when they come back with
5 their funding, which is when we're going to
6 allow the other phones to be taken out, tie in
7 to the fact that they do a study on how many are
8 needed to present at that same time, which would
9 be no problem presenting at the same time
10 because they're going to present their funding
11 source.
12 So it wouldn't have to be deferred. It
13 would just be tying in their study of where the
14 need is.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman, I believe your
16 amendment dies from a lack of a second.
17 Mr. Webb.
18 MR. WEBB: I'll give him a second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Then you've got your
20 second.
21 Now you're speaking to his amendment?
22 MR. WEBB: Yeah.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
24 MR. WEBB: And to the amendment, I think
25 it's -- I think the study has been already done
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1 from what I'm hearing from the JEDC, so --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I think so too.
3 MR. WEBB: -- just wrap it up in a pretty
4 bow and bring it back to us. Okay?
5 THE CHAIRMAN: But --
6 MR. WEBB: Just to formalize it, the
7 legislation --
8 (Simultaneous speaking.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: The thing I don't
10 understand, then -- the amendment was for us to
11 hold off until that comes back in its pretty
12 bow.
13 MR. WEBB: No, I don't believe that's the
14 amendment.
15 Just to clarify once again, I believe that
16 the amendment is that when they do come back
17 with the funding that they will also include the
18 study that shows where the safety phones -- the
19 emergency phones should properly be located; is
20 that correct?
21 MR. REDMAN: That's correct, instead of
22 pinning a number of ten with it.
23 MR. WEBB: Can I withdraw my second?
24 MR. REDMAN: Well, if they're going to show
25 you where the need actually is, it may be more
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 than ten or it may be less than ten, but the
2 thing is I want to see what the need really is
3 for the emergency phones.
4 MR. WEBB: I think Councilman Redman is
5 correct, but I think the Holt amendment -- the
6 point of the Holt amendment was to have the
7 funding for the ten as a condition precedent in
8 moving forward at all.
9 So that being the case, I know I seconded
10 it, but, I apologize, I won't support the
11 amendment.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: It sounds like you die from
13 a lack of a second.
14 So we're on the bill as amended.
15 The way I envision this, you guys are
16 moving forward. I don't expect you to come
17 back. Just make sure that that funding is in
18 place before that moves forward.
19 The thing that I would ask is that you
20 reach out to my office and let me know when the
21 funding is in place because once that's done, I
22 can start seeing the phones go away, but I just
23 want to make sure that, you know, that happens.
24 And I know sometimes the checks and
25 balances don't happen, so I'm putting it upon
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1 you, Paul Crawford, to make sure that my office
2 is notified when that funding is in place.
3 Seeing no further discussion, please open
4 the ballot.
5 (Committee ballot opened.)
6 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. BROWN: (Votes nay.)
8 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
12 (Committee ballot closed.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
14 the vote.
15 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, one nay.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
17 approved 2009-325 as amended.
18 Guys, do well.
19 2009-326. We will open that public
20 hearing.
21 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
22 public hearing and take no further action.
23 2009-345 is deferred.
24 Top of page 8. -346, -347, -348, -349 are
25 all deferred.
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1 -350 is deferred.
2 -351. We will open that public hearing.
3 Susan McDonald for questions only.
4 Seeing no questions -- thank you, Susan --
5 we'll close that public hearing.
6 MR. WEBB: Move the bill.
7 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
9 seconded.
10 Any discussion on the bill?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 MR. WEBB: (Inaudible.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: We're on -- middle of
14 page 9, 2009-351.
15 MR. WEBB: Mr. Chairman.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir.
17 MR. WEBB: I need to declare ex-parte.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Mr. Webb.
19 MR. WEBB: Thank you.
20 About a week ago, I did have a meeting in
21 my office with Susan McDonald, representative
22 for the applicant, to discuss the merits of this
23 modification.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Webb.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Seeing no further discussion, please open
2 the ballot.
3 (Committee ballot opened.)
4 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
6 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
10 (Committee ballot closed.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
12 the vote.
13 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
15 approved 2009-351.
16 -378, -379 are second and rereferred.
17 -380, -81, -82, -83, -84 are second and
18 rereferred.
19 -389 -- I'm sorry, -398 and -399 are
20 second and rereferred.
21 -401 is second and rereferred and -402 is
22 second and rereferred.
23 I see chicken scratch on here. Was there
24 something specific we were looking at that, -401
25 -402?
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1 MS. ELLER: I think I was briefing Stan
2 on -- at our preagenda meeting on -401 and -402,
3 so he may have had some notes on your agenda.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Gotcha.
5 Top of page 12. 2009-404 is second and
6 rereferred.
7 If we don't have anything else to come
8 before us --
9 MR. WEBB: (Inaudible.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: There is no public hearing
11 on that, so we are adjourned.
12 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
13 6:08 p.m.)
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7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 24th day of May, 2009.
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Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203