1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, May 5, 2009,
7 commencing at 5:05 p.m., City Hall, Council Chambers,
8 1st Floor,
9 Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of
10
11
12 PRESENT:
13 ART GRAHAM, Chair.
STEPHEN JOOST, Vice Chair.
14 REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
15 RAY HOLT, Committee Member.
JACK WEBB, Committee Member.
16 DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
19 SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
20 FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.
21
MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.
22 MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
23 - - -
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 May 5, 2009 5:05 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everybody.
5 Let the record show it is Tuesday, May the
6 5th. This is the Land Use and Zoning Committee,
7 and I have about 5:05.
8 Sorry. I apologize for being five minutes
9 late.
10 If we can start over here with Mr. Crofts,
11 let's get started.
12 MR. CROFTS: My name is John Crofts, and I
13 represent the Planning and Development
14 Department.
15 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
16 Development.
17 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
18 Development.
19 MR. HUXFORD: Folk Huxford, Planning and
20 Development.
21 MS. ELLER: Shannon Eller, General
22 Counsel's Office.
23 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, City Council,
24 District 4.
25 DR. GAFFNEY: Councilman Gaffney,
Diane M.
Tropia,
3
1 District 7.
2 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt, District 11.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Art Graham, District 13.
4 MR. JOOST: Stephen Joost, Group 3
5 at-large.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: And let the record show that
7 Jack Webb is on his way down. He'll be here in
8 about the next minute or so.
9 That being said, let's get started.
10 Top of page 2, 2006-24 is deferred.
11 2008-541 is deferred. 2008-542 is deferred.
12 Top of page 4, 2008-549. We have a
13 substitute.
14 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
15 MR. HOLT: Second.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: The sub's been moved -- it's
17 been moved and seconded.
18 Any discussion on the substitute?
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
21 say aye.
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 approved the substitute.
2 MR. HOLT: Move the bill as substituted.
3 MR. JOOST: Second.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Move to rerefer as
5 substituted?
6 MR. JOOST: Move to rerefer.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: And it's been seconded.
8 Any further discussion on the rereferral?
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
11 ballot.
12 (Committee ballot opened.)
13 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
15 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
18 (Committee ballot closed.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
20 the vote.
21 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays
22 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
23 rereferred 2008-549.
24 2008-550. There's a sub.
25 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
Diane M. Tropia,
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1 MR. HOLT: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: The sub's been moved and
3 seconded.
4 All in favor say aye.
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
9 the sub.
10 MR. JOOST: Move to rerefer.
11 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
13 to rerefer as substituted.
14 Any discussion?
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
17 ballot.
18 (Committee ballot opened.)
19 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
21 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 (Committee ballot closed.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 the vote.
2 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
4 rereferred -550 as substituted.
5 2008-552. We will open that public
6 hearing.
7 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
8 public hearing and take no further action.
9 Top of page 4. 2008-880 is deferred.
10 2009-12 is deferred.
11 2009-50. We will open that public
12 hearing.
13 Seeing no speakers, we will close that
14 public hearing and take no further action.
15 (Mr. Webb enters the proceedings.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Let the record show that
17 Mr. Webb has joined us.
18 Welcome, sir.
19 Bottom of page 4. 2009-91. Open the
20 public hearing.
21 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
22 public hearing and take no further action.
23 2009-161. We will open that public
24 hearing.
25 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 public hearing and take no further action.
2 2009-192. We will open the public
3 hearing.
4 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
5 public hearing and take no further action.
6 Of course I was told by the district
7 councilperson that we will definitely take up
8 2009-192 at the next meeting.
9 MR. WEBB: Absolutely.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: That's what I wanted to
11 hear.
12 2009-250. Open the public hearing.
13 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mann.
15 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, members of the
16 committee, Charles Mann,
17 representing the landowner.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions only?
19 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, I -- there's four
20 conditions that the Planning Department has
21 placed on this. Three of them we agree to.
22 We're going to disagree with the fourth one, but
23 I'll stand by till after they do their
24 presentation.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Sounds good.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 We'll close that public hearing.
2 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
3 MR. JOOST: Second.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
5 and seconded.
6 Can we hear the amendment, please.
7 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
8 To the Chair and members of the committee,
9 application for rezoning 2009-250 was
10 recommended for approval by the Planning
11 Commission subject to the four conditions, the
12 first three being related to the legal, the
13 written description, and the site plan.
14 Condition 4, which is at issue, states,
15 "The existing 32-square-foot monument sign shall
16 not be enlarged, no electronic message devices
17 are permitted, and wall signage shall not exceed
18 40 square feet."
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Was --
20 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, I'll keep this
21 brief.
22 I have worked out a compromise with the
23 district councilman. I have a very lengthy
24 presentation, but I know that this appears we
25 could have a short meeting. We have several
Diane M.
Tropia,
9
1 people that want to speak in favor of this, and
2 I've asked them to hold off, but what we're
3 requesting is a 140 square feet [sic] signage on
4 the building and a 64-square-foot monument sign.
5 The existing monument sign will be kept in
6 its same configuration. Just the sign will be
7 changed. In addition to that, with the area
8 councilman, we've agreed to delete the sign on
9 the side of the building altogether.
10 And with that being said, the councilman
11 supported this. I believe he spoke at the
12 agenda meeting to that effect.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Planning Department, are you
14 guys fine with that compromise or are -- you
15 guys stick with your initial --
16 MR. KELLY: We would go with our initial
17 recommendation. I can explain briefly.
18 The underlying zoning, basically CO zoning,
19 under this PUD only allows for a combination of
20 either a 24-square-foot monument sign -- the
21 existing 32-square-foot sign was either
22 permitted before the sign legislation at --
23 adopted the new changes, changed that back to a
24 24-square-foot sign.
25 Additionally, wall signage is very
Diane M.
Tropia,
10
1 restrictive and limited as well, so we're
2 looking at this as a -- really an
3 overcommercialization, I guess, of this
4 corridor.
5 It's not located at a node and wouldn't
6 meet additional criteria to be more of a
7 commercial node, so we're looking at the signage
8 in terms of compatibility with the surrounding
9 developments. This is a residential corridor
10 here on
11 and we feel that the signage limitations that
12 we've offered really more than double the
13 allowances.
14 The 32-square-foot sign would be permitted
15 to stay. In addition, they would be permitted
16 wall signage above and beyond what's provided
17 for in the code. So we feel that the condition,
18 as stated, is where we're at.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you guys also approve
20 signage on the side of the building?
21 MR. KELLY: It would have to be on an
22 occupancy frontage. I don't believe that was --
23 I don't believe that was even proposed
24 initially. I'll defer to the applicant on that
25 side, if -- whether or not that was ever
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 proposed to begin with.
2 But, initially, we had seen -- oh, on the
3 south side elevation there was a little placard,
4 I guess, for additional monument signage, but --
5 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, to answer your
6 question, not trying to, you know, talk over
7 Mr. Kelly, there was originally signage on the
8 front of the building and kind of an arch that
9 is kind of significant to the Watson's
10 architectural design on their buildings, the big
11 sweeping arch. And down on the side of the
12 building there was a smaller arch in the roof
13 line, that there was going to be 45 square feet
14 of signage. It was not a monument sign. There
15 is an existing monument sign that is out by the
16 roadway that is going to be enclosed -- or it
17 would -- the 64 square feet that we're in
18 question.
19 But this is a little bit of a unique piece
20 of property along
21 to the property was redesigned and changed after
22 Mr. Watson purchased the property and had the
23 building designed. And in so doing, he was
24 forced -- since he already had the building
25 designed -- to move the building from the front
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 of the property, as so many of the properties
2 along here are -- or have been built, with the
3 parking in the rear, to moving the building to
4 the rear of the property to get the size of the
5 building that he needs.
6 Of course, this is a shrinking real estate
7 market. A lot of buildings have gone from
8 single users now to multitenants, and that's the
9 anticipation of having a secondary use in this
10 building such as an attorney, a title agency,
11 maybe a mortgage company, something of that use,
12 and that's the reason for the -- part of the
13 reason for the additional signage.
14 But in doing so, the retention was moved up
15 close to
16 Exhibit J that is in your package that shows the
17 retention right up here at the front of the
18 boulevard. And then to get adequate parking,
19 they had to put the parking between the
20 retention on the boulevard and the building.
21 Now, I've got some pictures. And I know
22 y'all have not had an opportunity to visit the
23 site, but it will better define -- excuse me.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, Mr. Kelly, you guys,
25 in your initial approval -- the applicant had
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 permission to have a sign on the side of the
2 building?
3 MR. KELLY: No.
4 The underlying zoning, again, allows -- you
5 have an option. You get one monument sign at
6 24 square feet or you get wall signage
7 allowances based on the number of stories and
8 the number of acres that you have for that
9 building.
10 In this case, they're limited to either one
11 or the other under the conventional sense of the
12 code, so they'd be limited to a 24-square-foot
13 monument sign. They already have a
14 32-square-foot monument sign.
15 Additionally, they're asking for wall
16 signage. And, typically, for buildings that are
17 less than three stories, even though they're on
18 essentially property at least three acres in
19 size, they're typically -- collectively, the
20 wall signage cannot exceed 100 square feet.
21 So we were looking at a compromise in our
22 condition originally, that -- that legitimized
23 the existing nonconforming sign at 32 square
24 feet, not allowing any additional monument
25 signage, and also allowing wall signage that
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 otherwise would be prohibited.
2 We feel it's -- you know, otherwise it's
3 circumventing the intent of the normal
4 application of the signage regulations.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, the district
6 councilperson -- I'm trying to remember what he
7 had said because I didn't make notes of it.
8 He was fine with the wall sign, which you
9 said is 40 square feet?
10 MR. MANN: No, sir.
11 He would support 140 square feet on the
12 front of the building and the increase to the
13 64 square feet on the monument sign, but he
14 wanted the sign on the side of the building done
15 away with.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: So 140 square feet on the
17 wall -- 140 square feet on the wall, and then --
18 on the front, and an additional 64 --
19 (Mr. Clark enters the proceedings.)
20 MR. MANN: Square feet in the monument --
21 oh, additional 32 square feet in the monument
22 sign.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: So it's not changing the
24 size of the monument sign --
25 (Simultaneous speaking.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. MANN: We're not changing the height or
2 the width. It's solely the face.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Gotcha.
4 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, I've got some
5 pictures here that demonstrate the blockage of
6 the visibility with the landscaping around the
7 retention pond. This is taken at the northeast
8 corner of the property.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
10 MR. MANN: That shows you -- that will show
11 you how the site is screened from the road.
12 This next picture is taken from in front of
13 the property, looking across the fence at the
14 retention pond to the building.
15 This third picture is from the southeast
16 corner of the property looking back towards the
17 building, and you can see how it's blocked.
18 This fourth picture shows you -- looking
19 south at the monument sign and how it's blocked.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you zoom in a little
21 closer on that one?
22 MS. LAHMEUR: (Complies.)
23 MR. JOOST: It's blocked by the tree.
24 MR. MANN: And, Mr. Chairman, like I said,
25 this piece of property is somewhat unique to the
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 other pieces of property out there in that the
2 building is off the main drag and signage is
3 most important.
4 You're entering the commercial area that is
5 leading up to
6 traffic is moving fast, it's braking for access
7 on and off to J. Turner
8 side roads, if you're headed south -- and if
9 you're headed north, you have to go up and
10 actually make a U-turn to come back to the
11 property. So being able to locate it is going
12 to be most important.
13 We all know that, you know, U-turns are
14 your most dangerous traffic maneuver. And in
15 that being said, we would ask that you give us
16 adequate signage on this site.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Let the record show that our
18 council vice president, Richard Clark, has
19 joined us, who is also the district
20 councilmember.
21 I take it you have a comment or so on this
22 rezoning?
23 MR. CLARK: Yes. You want me to -- are we
24 still in public comment?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: No.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. CLARK: We're good?
2 Thank you for your time.
3 I know the property well. I know the
4 people that live right behind this. Actually,
5 our general counsel's brother lives in the
6 neighborhood behind this, so I know it
7 exceptionally well.
8 This is a building designed to look a lot
9 more like a residential building, to kind of
10 mirror everything behind there. It is -- you
11 know, where they're at, they have way too much
12 space for their needs. They need to sublet it.
13 The folks that sublet it just want to basically
14 put some signage underneath the Watson sign.
15 My agreement was, you're not moving the
16 sign, you're not getting any closer to the road,
17 you're not changing anything.
18 The only people that are ever going to see
19 these signs are people on Hodges, which is why I
20 said no way are you putting anything on the
21 sides. But, you know, it -- it probably is
22 almost necessary if you want people to actually
23 see where you are. And on the side of the -- on
24 the building facing the road, there's no
25 problem. Again, no one is going to see it
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 except someone who's looking for it. It's not
2 going to hurt anybody or the neighbors or
3 anything like that.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, let's piecemeal this.
5 Let's do the first three that everybody seems to
6 agree upon.
7 So all in favor of the first three
8 amendments signify by saying aye.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
13 the first three.
14 Now, the fourth one is -- Mr. Clark, I'm
15 assuming that you want to go with the
16 140-foot -- the 140-square-foot sign that's
17 going to be on the front wall?
18 MR. CLARK: Right.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: And then an additional
20 32 square feet on the side --
21 MR. CLARK: Right.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: -- which makes a total of
23 64 square feet?
24 MR. CLARK: Correct.
25 And zero on the sides.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I got a motion --
3 MR. WEBB: Second.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: -- and a second.
5 Any further discussion on -- Mr. Joost.
6 MR. JOOST: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
7 It was my intent to declare ex-parte before
8 the public meeting, but we got ahead of
9 ourselves.
10 I had a conversation with Mr. Mann
11 regarding this matter on May 5th.
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
14 MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry. I
15 should probably declare ex-parte as well.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Who did you meet with and
17 when?
18 MR. CLARK: The applicant actually gave me
19 a phone call a week ago and gave me some time to
20 go by the building and check it out, so --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sounds good.
22 Dr. Gaffney.
23 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I wish to
24 declare ex-parte. I spoke with Mr. Mann about
25 the project right before the meeting today,
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 around 4:45.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Sounds good.
3 Mr. Redman.
4 MR. REDMAN: I need to declare ex-parte.
5 I spoke with Mr. Mann this afternoon
6 concerning this project.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think Mr. Mann needs
8 your vote.
9 MR. MANN: If I had your phone number, I
10 would have called you too.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. So we are on
12 the -- we'll call it the Holt Amendment.
13 All in favor signify by saying aye.
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
18 the amendment.
19 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as twice amended.
20 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll make it the LUZ
22 amendment. We'll move the bill as amended.
23 Any further discussion?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 ballot.
2 (Committee ballot opened.)
3 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
5 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
9 (Committee ballot closed.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
11 the vote.
12 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
14 approved 2009-250.
15 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, committee, thank
16 you very much.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
18 Mr. Clark, do you have anything else?
19 MR. CLARK: I have an entire sign rewrite
20 I'd like to introduce right now if you'd -- I've
21 got a small presentation. It will last about an
22 hour.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you have another bill
24 that you wanted to take up --
25 MR. CLARK: No. Thank you, though.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Bottom of page 5 --
2 (Mr. Brown enters the proceedings.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Bottom of page 5.
4 2009-252. We will open the public hearing.
5 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
6 public hearing and take no further action.
7 Let the record show that Councilman Brown
8 has joined us.
9 Top of page 6. 2009-253. We'll open the
10 public hearing.
11 Seeing no speakers, continue that public
12 hearing and take no further action.
13 -254. We'll open the public hearing.
14 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
15 public hearing to September the 15th and take no
16 further action.
17 2009-284. We will open the public
18 hearing.
19 We have Dave Touring. Come on down.
20 (Mr. Touring approaches the podium.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: He's here for questions
22 only.
23 You're a good man.
24 Seeing no questions of Mr. Touring, we will
25 close that public hearing.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 Hold tight.
2 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment to grant the
3 waiver.
4 MR. HOLT: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
6 to grant the waiver.
7 Are there any conditions on this?
8 MR. KELLY: No.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
10 signify by saying aye.
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
15 the amendment.
16 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
17 MR. HOLT: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
19 to grant the waiver.
20 Any further discussion?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
23 ballot.
24 (Committee ballot opened.)
25 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
3 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
7 (Committee ballot closed.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
9 the vote.
10 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
12 approved -284.
13 Sorry, Dave. No time to talk this time.
14 -285. Open the public hearing.
15 (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)
16 MR. DUGGAN: Wyman Duggan, 1301 Riverplace
17
Boulevard,
18 Mr. Chairman, this is a land use
19 amendment. I have the next as well, which is
20 the companion rezoning.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Questions only?
22 MR. DUGGAN: I would like to discuss a few
23 of the conditions, but I will not make a
24 presentation unless there are any questions.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We will close that
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 public hearing. We'll get to your rezoning in a
2 minute.
3 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
4 MR. WEBB: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
6 seconded.
7 Any further discussion on the land use?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
10 ballot.
11 (Committee ballot opened.)
12 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
15 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
19 (Committee ballot closed.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
21 the vote.
22 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
24 approved -285.
25 -286. We'll open the public hearing.
Diane M.
Tropia,
26
1 Mr. Duggan.
2 MR. DUGGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 This PUD rezoning is consistent with the
4 land use seeking to change the uses on this
5 parcel from its current PUD entitlement for
6 residential, single-family development to a
7 light industrial use. You just approved the
8 land use amendment.
9 The rezoning limits -- the PUD limits the
10 uses to only the outside storage of empty
11 construction and demolition debris dumpsters.
12 And in connection with that use, there are a few
13 of the conditions that I need to address,
14 proposed conditions.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, let's
16 close the public hearing and hear what they are,
17 and then we'll work our way backwards.
18 MR. DUGGAN: Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll close that public
20 hearing.
21 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
22 MR. HOLT: Second.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
24 and seconded.
25 Planning Department.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. CROFTS: Yes, Mr. Chairman and members
2 of the committee. The conditions are as
3 follows:
4 Number 1, "The developer shall be subject
5 to the original legal description dated March
6 30th, 2009."
7 Number 2, "The developer shall be subject
8 to the original written description dated March
9 30th, 2009."
10 Number 3, "The developer shall be subject
11 to the original site plan dated March 30th,
12 2009."
13 Number 4, "The required transportation
14 improvements shall be made in accordance with
15 the Development Services memorandum dated April
16 1st, 2009, and the Transportation Planning
17 memorandum dated April 8th, 2009, or as approved
18 by the Planning and Development Department."
19 Condition number 5, "The vertical stacking
20 of containers, bins, or trailers shall be
21 prohibited."
22 Number 6, "Signage is limited to one
23 monument sign not to exceed 100 square feet in
24 area and 20 feet in height."
25 Number 7, "The developer shall provide,
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 adjacent to the northern property line of lots
2 on
3 of a 4-foot-high earthen berm with a 6-foot-high
4 vinyl fence, 100 percent opaque, on top, and one
5 evergreen tree spaced every 25 feet, and a --
6 and a 4-foot-high hedge facing residential
7 uses."
8 Number 8, "No access shall be permitted on
10 Number 9, "Hours of operation shall be
11 limited to 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., Monday through
12 Friday."
13 Number 10, "Should the residential uses
14 adjacent to the subject property be rezoned to a
15 nonresidential use, the aforementioned buffer
16 and landscape requirements will no longer be
17 required."
18 Number 11, "The developer shall provide an
19 8-foot-high, 100 percent opaque visual screen on
20 the right-of-way on
21 Road."
22 Number 12, "There shall be no illumination
23 of the subject site."
24 Number 13, "The western portion of the
25 subject property, south of the wetlands, shall
Diane M.
Tropia,
29
1 be used as a passive space. If the area is
2 utilized for storage, the site must meet the
3 same buffer and landscaping requirements as set
4 forth in condition 7."
5 That's it.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Duggan, which of these
7 13 did you have issue with?
8 MR. DUGGAN: Condition number 7,
9 Mr. Chairman.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Condition number 7 is the
11 only one?
12 MR. DUGGAN: Well, condition number 7 and
13 then minor changes to condition 10 and 13, to
14 remove the language referring to the landscape
15 requirements because in condition 7 we would
16 propose that it read, "The developer shall
17 provide, adjacent to the northern property line
18 of lots on Dewitt Road, a 20-foot-wide buffer
19 composed of an 8-foot-high vinyl fence,
20 100 percent opaque."
21 In other words, that would delete the
22 reference to a berm, delete the reference to
23 landscaping. And, therefore, in condition
24 number 10 the reference to landscape
25 requirements would be deleted, and then
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
30
1 condition 13 the reference to landscape
2 requirements would be deleted.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let's do it this
4 way. Let's just go ahead and approve the
5 amendments for everything except for 7, 10, and
6 13.
7 MR. WEBB: So moved.
8 MR. HOLT: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor signify by
10 saying aye.
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
15 approved those.
16 Mr. Holt, I take it you want to chime in
17 here?
18 MR. HOLT: Yes. I'm going to propose an
19 amendment, but first I need to declare
20 ex-parte. I spoke with Mr. Duggan and
21 Mr. Putnal in my office about an hour ago about
22 these amendments.
23 And, therefore, I want to propose the
24 amendment as described by Mr. Duggan, that we --
25 instead of requiring a 40-foot buffer, we make
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
31
1 that a 20-foot buffer with an 8-foot, white
2 vinyl fence along all the residential properties
3 on -- what is that, Dewitt?
4 MR. DUGGAN: Dewitt.
5 MR. HOLT: And that there will be no gate
6 provided at the end of Dewitt so that there's no
7 entry.
8 That's my amendment.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: And you want to go from a
10 40-foot-wide buffer to a 20-foot-wide buffer?
11 MR. HOLT: Right. With a --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: And with no berm?
13 MR. HOLT: Right. With an 8-foot, white
14 vinyl fence.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: And an 8-foot fence opposed
16 to a 4-foot hedge?
17 MR. HOLT: Right.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Planning Department, why the
19 4-foot berm and the 4-foot hedge opposed to an
20 8-foot fence?
21 MR. KELLY: When we reviewed this and we
22 looked at this, we're basically looking at our
23 buffer standards when you have industrial uses
24 adjacent to residential uses, and we felt at a
25 minimum for noise attenuation you would need
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
32
1 some sort of berming at the base, at the ground
2 level.
3 There's a lot of complaints, noise-driven
4 complaints. The hours of operation will help
5 that out as well, but we still feel that the
6 noise associated with the trucks that are
7 entering and leaving, that will be created on
8 this site, was something that warranted a
9 substantial buffer similar to what we've
10 promoted in the past when we do have industrial
11 uses adjacent to residential.
12 So the combination of the berm and the
13 landscaping on top of the berm to mitigate the
14 noise not only -- as well as aesthetically,
15 adding that landscaping would certainly be more
16 desirable than looking at an 8-foot-tall fence,
17 in our opinion. So we would just support the
18 original condition as proposed.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I can only throw my opinion
20 out there, guys. And, Mr. Holt, you may not
21 like my opinion, but I don't have a problem with
22 the 4-foot berm and the --
23 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I'm looking more
25 towards the hedge. I mean, I don't care how big
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
33
1 of a fence you put up there, but I like the idea
2 of the berm and the hedge.
3 I don't care if you decrease the buffer
4 down to 20 feet. I mean, I don't see that we
5 need to have a 40-foot buffer, but I like the
6 idea of the berm being there and the hedge, and
7 I don't know if you look at that as being a
8 compromise or if you just want to -- what you
9 want to do.
10 MR. HOLT: I certainly wouldn't have a
11 problem with the berm and hedge either. I think
12 the main issue here is that -- forcing him to
13 have a 40-foot buffer severely restricts how
14 much space -- how much he's able to get on that
15 property.
16 I think it's a difference between having
17 one row of bends and two rows of bends, so
18 that -- I think the 20 foot is the main issue,
19 but I have to ask them if they would be okay
20 with that. I've spoken with Mr. Duggan earlier
21 and they were fine with what my compromise was,
22 to have the 8-foot vinyl fence, but I'd be fine
23 with the berm as long as we get the -- the
24 20-foot issue.
25 MR. DUGGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 At 20 feet, I'm not sure that there's
2 enough of a cross-section to create a berm
3 because there's a slope involved, so that's the
4 first issue.
5 The second issue is -- with respect to the
6 noise and the screening, the site currently has
7 an 8-foot-high chain-link fence with a
8 silkscreen that's 100 percent opaque. That's
9 what's there today.
10 This use is actually out on the site
11 today. Unlike many rezonings where it proposes
12 a use that's not there yet, it's already being
13 utilized for this purpose.
14 The height of that 8-foot fence currently
15 screens the dumpsters today. You cannot see the
16 dumpsters from the Dewitt side over that fence.
17 The site is unpaved and will remain unpaved, so
18 I'm not sure that the trucks coming in and out
19 on dirt and sand, picking up and dropping off,
20 are going to create that much noise, but I would
21 point out that an 8-foot vinyl fence, as
22 Councilman Holt has requested, even without the
23 berm, screens the dumpsters. You cannot see the
24 dumpsters.
25 Mr. Arwood (phonetic), who owns the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
35
1 business that is utilizing this property, is
2 here. He can testify as to how -- the frequency
3 of trucks coming in and out. It's my
4 understanding from him that that's about two to
5 three a day, between 7:00 and 7:00. Otherwise,
6 with the fence that's there now or the 8-foot
7 fence that's proposed, really the neighbors
8 aren't going to see anything that goes on over
9 there or hear very much at all.
10 The Planning Department asked us, when we
11 did this -- filed this land use amendment
12 application, to go meet with every one of the
13 neighbors who live on Dewitt and get a letter
14 from them acknowledging that this application
15 would change the residential -- the neighboring
16 property to an industrial use. Several of them
17 commented, we'd rather have that use that's
18 there today, that we know what it is, than
19 additional residential uses next to us.
20 So I can tell you that the neighbors are
21 comfortable with this use. It's a use that they
22 know thoroughly because it's there today.
23 So that's a long answer to your question.
24 As a practical matter, I'm not sure there's
25 enough of a footprint for a berm at only 20 feet
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
36
1 in width. Moreover, I'm not sure it's
2 necessary.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Planning Department, do we
4 have enough space to put a 4-foot berm?
5 MR. KELLY: We are -- yes, we do.
6 Within the 20 feet, to go to 4 feet, it
7 would be greater than three to one on the slope,
8 so you would need at least 24 feet in width to
9 get a three-to-one slope, which is usually a
10 berm that can be maintained, it would be
11 vegetated and sodded. But if you went steeper
12 than that, you could do that within 20 feet.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want a 24-foot buffer
14 or a 20-foot buffer?
15 MR. DUGGAN: Well --
16 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
17 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Jim Putnal.
18 I'm the present property owner.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Come on up, Jim.
20 Haven't seen you in a while.
21 MR. PUTNAL: No. I'm trying to stay low
22 key these days.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Good to see you doing
24 industrial stuff.
25 MR. PUTNAL: As a practical matter, if you
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
37
1 go out and look at this site, a flat 4-foot berm
2 with a 4-foot fence on top will not really give
3 you as much of a buffering as an 8-foot fence.
4 So, in my opinion, we can do a flat berm,
5 4 foot high, with a -- steeper than a
6 four-to-one slope, but it's going to be -- make
7 that whole berm flat all the way across, and
8 slope it down and put a 4-foot fence on top of
9 it will not give you any more buffering and
10 perhaps not as much as an 8-foot fence would
11 give you.
12 And as a practical matter for landscaping,
13 there is no water out there, and it's going to
14 be very difficult to maintain any kind of
15 landscaping as a practical matter. And if you
16 go out and look at the houses out there, there's
17 no landscaping anyway.
18 But a 20-foot berm can be built and a
19 4-foot fence put on top, but as a real practical
20 matter, an 8-foot fence will give you a better
21 buffer than what you're proposing for a 4-foot
22 fence with a berm.
23 But if it's a requirement that we have a
24 20-foot berm, then we can live with it, with a
25 4-foot fence, but I would prefer the 8-foot
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
38
1 fence myself.
2 And I personally met with all the people on
3 the street, and every one of them, to a person,
4 said we prefer this use over residential
5 properties.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, nobody is doubting the
7 use.
8 MR. PUTNAL: I understand, but --
9 THE CHAIRMAN: The use is not in question
10 here.
11 MR. PUTNAL: Well --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: It's just what's the best
13 way of the noise retention and buffering the
14 property and --
15 MR. PUTNAL: The noise retention would
16 buffer it better with an 8-foot fence with trees
17 planted behind the fence, which we can do and
18 maintain that with watering. If you put hedge
19 in front of the fence, folks, as a practical
20 matter, in 30 days they'll be gone.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that what you're
22 proposing, is an 8-foot fence and trees back
23 behind the fence?
24 MR. PUTNAL: Yes. Absolutely.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: That sounds like a good
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
39
1 compromise to me.
2 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
4 What -- Jim, what are you proposing?
5 MR. PUTNAL: I'm proposing an 8-foot fence
6 across the north -- along Dewitt, with trees in
7 accordance with your requirement for tree
8 planting, not hedge, but tree planting behind
9 the fence so that it is totally buffered.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Planning
11 Department --
12 MR. PUTNAL: And a 20-foot buffer, yes.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: And what are the other
14 changes we have to make to 10 and 13?
15 MR. DUGGAN: To remove -- well, when it was
16 referring to hedges as a landscaping
17 requirement, I wanted to take that out, if the
18 hedging was going away. I suppose we can leave
19 that in if we all understand that what that
20 refers to is trees, the words "landscaping
21 requirements."
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Planning Department,
23 are you confused? Are you on top of it?
24 MR. KELLY: I think we got it.
25 I can read condition 7 just to get
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
40
1 clarification, but the way I'm reading it now is
2 that condition 7 would read, "The developer
3 shall provide, adjacent to the northern property
4 line of lots on Dewitt Road, a 20-foot-wide
5 buffer composed of an 8-foot-high vinyl fence,
6 100 percent opaque, with one evergreen tree
7 spaced every 25 feet."
8 MR. PUTNAL: Yeah.
9 MR. KELLY: Placed behind the -- on the
10 property owner's side of the fence.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Are we good?
12 MR. DUGGAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I get a motion to that
14 effect?
15 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
16 MR. HOLT: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
18 seconded.
19 Shannon, are we clear?
20 MS. ELLER: Yes, sir.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. All in favor
22 signify by saying aye.
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
41
1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
2 approved the two amendments.
3 Can I get -- move the bill as amended.
4 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
5 MR. HOLT: Second.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
7 as amended.
8 Any further discussion on the bill?
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
11 ballot.
12 (Committee ballot opened.)
13 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
16 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
20 (Committee ballot closed.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
22 the vote.
23 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
25 approved 2009-286.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Jim, thanks for coming down.
2 MR. DUGGAN: Than you, Mr. Chairman.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Wyman, it's good to see you
4 again.
5 MR. PUTNAL: Thank you very much.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: 2009-287 and -288. We'll
7 open both those public hearings.
8 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue both
9 those public hearings until June 16th and take
10 no further action.
11 -289. We'll open the public hearing.
12 (Mr. Boswell approaches the podium.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Dan, you're here for
14 questions only?
15 MR. BOSWELL: Questions only.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: You're a good man.
17 We'll close that public hearing.
18 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
19 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
21 seconded.
22 Any discussion on the bill?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
25 ballot.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 (Committee ballot opened.)
2 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
5 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
9 (Committee ballot closed.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
11 the vote
12 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
14 approved 2009-289.
15 2009-290. I should have opened both of
16 those at the same time.
17 Dan once again. Open and close. Here for
18 questions only.
19 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
20 MR. HOLT: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
22 and seconded.
23 Can we hear the amendments -- or, Dan, are
24 you fine with the amendments?
25 MR. BOSWELL: Yes, I am.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. All in favor of the
2 amendment signify by saying aye.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
7 the amendment.
8 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
9 MR. JOOST: Second.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
11 and seconded.
12 Any further discussion on the bill?
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
15 ballot.
16 (Committee ballot opened.)
17 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
20 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 (Committee ballot closed.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 the vote.
2 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
4 approved 2009-290 as amended.
5 Thank you, sir.
6 MR. BOSWELL: Thank you very much.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: 2009-295. We will open the
8 public hearing.
9 Emily Pierce.
10 (Ms. Pierce approaches the podium.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions only?
12 MS. PIERCE: Correct.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: You're a good woman.
14 We'll close that public hearing.
15 MR. WEBB: Move the bill.
16 MR. JOOST: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
18 seconded.
19 Seeing no discussion, please open the
20 ballot.
21 (Committee ballot opened.)
22 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
4 (Committee ballot closed.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
6 the vote.
7 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
9 approved -295.
10 MS. PIERCE: Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
12 -296. We'll open the public hearing.
13 Susan McDonald. Questions only. She's a
14 great woman too.
15 We will close that public hearing.
16 MR. WEBB: Move the amendment.
17 MR. BROWN: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
19 and seconded.
20 Susan, do you need to hear the amendments?
21 MS. McDONALD: Yes, if you don't mind.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, we'll hear them.
23 Let's hear the amendments.
24 MS. ELLER: To the committee --
25 MS. McDONALD: Yes, if you don't mind, I
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 would like --
2 MS. ELLER: -- the amendment corrects the
3 legal description. It also caps the number of
4 trips in order to match what was requested by
5 the Department of Community Affairs and it
6 incorporates an additional CCAS application so
7 that way all the CCASs for the same project have
8 been bundled together.
9 It makes all these changes in the attached
10 development agreement and attaches that as the
11 revised Exhibit 1.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you agree with that?
13 MS. McDONALD: We agree with that, yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Sounds good.
15 MS. McDONALD: Thank you very much.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the
17 amendment signify by saying aye.
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
22 approved the amendment.
23 MR. WEBB: Move the bill as amended.
24 MR. HOLT: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
48
1 seconded as amended.
2 Any discussion on the bill?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
5 ballot.
6 (Committee ballot opened.)
7 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
10 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
14 (Committee ballot closed.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
16 the vote.
17 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
19 approved -296.
20 -324 is deferred.
21 Top of page 9, -325. We will open that
22 public hearing.
23 We have -- all right. If you're here to
24 speak on this bill, come on down. Might as well
25 sit down front because there's plenty of empty
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 seats.
2 Let's start with Dave Swearingen, followed
3 by Shareef --
4 Who's Dave?
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right here.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Come on, sir.
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I have some additional
8 information. I'd like to have them distributed
9 to the various councilmen.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, name and address for
11 the record and we'll get you started.
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is David
13 Swearingen. I live at 220 East 6th Street, and
14 I'm the president of Florida Public Telephone
15 Company.
16 I have provided public services to the
17 people of Jacksonville and to the city, state,
18 and federal governments for the past 29 years
19 and I've provided employment to several of your
20 citizens.
21 And now, all of a sudden, instead of being
22 respected as a legitimate businessman, serving
23 my community and providing essential services,
24 I'm being slandered as a greedy person who just
25 puts pay phones anywhere with no -- no
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 restraint, no accountability. They say my
2 equipment doesn't work and it's dirty and ugly.
3 I say look at the pictures that I'm handing
4 out to you and then go around and look at the
5 phones and see for yourself, see what you think.
6 I've lived in Springfield for 29 years, and
7 I can tell you that the claim that banning pay
8 phones has solved all the problems in
9 Springfield is not true. There were many, many
10 other factors that have changed Springfield and
11 made it the nice place that it is today. Pay
12 phones actually had nothing to do with the
13 improvements in Springfield.
14 The claim has been made that all the
15 existing pay phones on right-of-ways downtown
16 are there illegally because no permits were
17 issued. Well, that's bogus.
18 First of all, there isn't any law requiring
19 permits. Besides, most of the downtown phones
20 were originally installed by BellSouth with help
21 from the City. The City had to bring up the
22 lines from underground for BellSouth to even
23 connect the phones. So if permits were
24 required, why did the City help BellSouth put
25 them in with no permits? And why was nothing
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 said during the past 100 years? Why all of a
2 sudden it seems to be a problem -- all of a
3 sudden the police can't enforce the laws if the
4 pay phones are there.
5 Michael Brunet [sic] from the JSO legal
6 unit has asserted very emphatically to the JEDC
7 board, who recommended this ordinance, that no
8 one at the Suns baseball park knew anything
9 about the pay phone that's there, how it got
10 there. That's simply untrue.
11 I've included a letter in your packet here
12 from Peter Bragan, owner of the Jacksonville
13 Suns, the man who called me personally and asked
14 me to put that phone there because he felt that
15 the thousands of people who come to baseball
16 games needed a phone available.
17 A blanket ban on pay phones on public
18 right-of-way and parks downtown would be
19 detrimental to our citizens' health and safety.
20 It's my understanding that most of the 911
21 calls that the police department gets actually
22 come from pay phones. It would hurt the very
23 people that it's supposed to help. Therefore,
24 we're working with the JSO and others to draft
25 an ordinance that would solve any real problems
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 that y'all might have with the pay phones. It
2 will solve the problems without throwing out the
3 baby with the bath water and creating new
4 problems.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir.
6 MR. SWEARINGEN: So I urge you to defer a
7 decision on this ordinance until after tomorrow
8 morning when we are meeting to draft an amended
9 ordinance.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
11 Hold on a second. There is a question.
12 Mr. Redman.
13 MR. REDMAN: Yes, sir. Through the
14 chairman, how long have you had your phones on
15 public property?
16 MR. SWEARINGEN: We first took over the
17 BellSouth phones when they got out of the
18 business in December of 2003, so it would be
19 since December of 2003.
20 MR. REDMAN: What kind of money do you make
21 from these on a monthly basis?
22 MR. SWEARINGEN: Most of them are just a
23 little better than break even because there are
24 so many cell phones around.
25 Our problem is that it actually costs us
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1 about $50 per month per phone, so it takes a
2 hundred calls before we break even on a phone.
3 And most phones tend to do, let's say, 100 to
4 150 calls a month.
5 We do have a few phones downtown,
6 particularly the two at the Landing, that will
7 do as many as 1,000 calls a month, but, you
8 know, that's the exception rather than the
9 rule. But, you know, there again, we're talking
10 about 1,000 people that would be inconvenienced
11 every month if the phones weren't there.
12 MR. REDMAN: Those at the Landing, are they
13 on private property?
14 MR. SWEARINGEN: Yes, they are.
15 MR. REDMAN: Okay. So, you know, this
16 ordinance does not affect those that are on
17 private property, only those that are on public
18 property.
19 MR. SWEARINGEN: That's what we're being
20 told, but as a result of this, we received a
21 certified letter from the Landing telling us
22 that those phones would have to be removed as
23 well.
24 MR. REDMAN: Well, that should be the
25 option of a property owner, so, you know -- you
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1 made some kind of contract with them to put
2 those there to -- initially, I suppose, so they
3 would have a right to do away with those if they
4 wanted to; is that correct?
5 MR. SWEARINGEN: Yes, sir, but someone made
6 a call to the Landing claiming to be
7 representing the City and saying that because of
8 the new law, the phones would have to be
9 removed.
10 It would be good if we could get some kind
11 of public record correcting that if that's not
12 the case, but that's what the Landing was led to
13 believe.
14 MR. REDMAN: Okay, sir. Thank you.
15 MR. SWEARINGEN: Thanks.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on a second, sir.
17 Reggie.
18 MR. BROWN: Through the Chair, could you
19 expound on the meeting tomorrow? You
20 mentioned --
21 MR. SWEARINGEN: I'm not that familiar with
22 the meeting. If you can ask Bruce Renard when
23 he speaks, he can give you the details on the
24 meeting.
25 MR. BROWN: Right. But you also mentioned
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1 that you were going to draft legislation maybe
2 or --
3 MR. SWEARINGEN: Yes.
4 MR. BROWN: -- a compromise --
5 MR. SWEARINGEN: What we're proposing to do
6 is to reach some kind of a compromise and to
7 change the language of the ordinance somewhat
8 because we feel that a blanket ban is not only
9 going to do more harm than good, but -- because
10 the existing language is not legal.
11 MR. BROWN: Okay. So you believe that
12 tomorrow's meeting would give you and your
13 organization an opportunity to reach, I guess, a
14 win/win for you and individuals that oppose?
15 MR. SWEARINGEN: Yes, exactly.
16 We want a better Jacksonville too. You
17 know, if there's any real problems that pay
18 phones are causing, we want to know about them,
19 we want to correct them.
20 We don't mind being regulated -- you know,
21 primarily we are regulated by the Public Service
22 Commission. But if there's any local problems,
23 we are more than ready to work with you to solve
24 those problems.
25 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.
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1 My next question is to legal. Is it --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
3 MR. BROWN: Through the Chair to legal, is
4 there a law that prohibits pay phones being on
5 public streets?
6 MS. ELLER: No. Permitting pay phones in
7 the right-of-way is at the discretion of the
8 local government.
9 This particular proposal to remove them
10 from the right-of-way came through our JEDC
11 after they had reviewed and researched the
12 particular issues with pay phones in the
13 downtown area.
14 So we do have the authority to regulate our
15 right-of-ways and we can pick and choose what we
16 want to have in our right-of-ways.
17 MR. BROWN: Okay. I want to make sure that
18 I followed you.
19 So the answer is no, there's no law?
20 MS. ELLER: There's no law that requires --
21 that mandates that we allow folks to put pay
22 phones on the streets.
23 We have the right as a local government to
24 decide if we want pay phones on our public
25 streets in those right-of-ways that we
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 regulate. So the law allows us -- gives us the
2 chance to decide whether we want those pay
3 phones in the right-of-way.
4 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller, I have a question
6 for you.
7 The cable company puts cable in the public
8 right-of-way, and for the privilege of doing
9 that we get a fee from them, which, I guess, is
10 a -- what is that, an enterprise fee or a --
11 MS. ELLER: Something like that.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: -- franchise fee?
13 Are we collecting any sort of franchise fee
14 for these pay phones?
15 MS. ELLER: I don't believe so. I'll defer
16 to either Mr. Teal or someone from JEDC
17 regarding the regulation of the pay phones and
18 what -- it's my understanding that they don't
19 have any permits. And anytime you put anything
20 in our right-of-way, it does require a
21 right-of-way permit. And typically a condition
22 of the permit could be as you mentioned, but I
23 don't have -- I don't know the specifics on
24 these pay phones and what, if anything, we're
25 collecting from them.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Teal.
2 MR. TEAL: Through the Chair, no, the City
3 doesn't collect any fees or any sort of
4 reimbursement or anything for the pay phones
5 occupying our rights-of-way.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: So part of the solution
7 could be that you institute a fee, just like you
8 charge the -- Comcast to put their lines in our
9 right-of-way, and I guess they can either pay
10 the fee or remove their phone.
11 MR. TEAL: Well, the -- state law
12 authorizes the use of rights-of-way by
13 telecommunication companies through franchise
14 agreements and other agreements. That would
15 certainly be a possibility for the City to do
16 that.
17 I think that the JEDC has more logistical
18 concerns with regard to the pay phones that are
19 in the rights-of-way. They can get into that
20 during their speaking portion, but, yes, the
21 City can certainly charge to authorize people,
22 though, I think, you know, from -- the first
23 speaker said that -- I think their margin is
24 pretty slim as far as --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, no, I'm just trying
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1 to -- because we're talking about a private
2 entity putting something in the public
3 right-of-way, and I was trying to figure out how
4 we dealt with it with other people, the cable
5 being one.
6 Okay. Shareef Haleem.
7 MR. BROWN: I have one other question.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Hold on a
9 second, sir.
10 Mr. Brown.
11 MR. BROWN: And this may also be a question
12 for legal.
13 Approximately how many phones -- I
14 understand is that -- I heard we do not -- it's
15 not a permitting process right now, they do not
16 have to file a permit. Do we know how many
17 phones we have in the downtown area? And
18 then --
19 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll get that in a minute.
20 I'm sure the other side will tell you exactly
21 where they are and how many there are.
22 MR. BROWN: Okay. Then my question
23 becomes, then, for legal, we have not enforced
24 that process for obtaining a permit, and it's
25 obvious we have several individuals here that
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1 have that as a business, and is there a reason
2 why we have not up until this point enforced
3 that process?
4 MS. ELLER: Are you referring to the
5 permitting process --
6 MR. BROWN: Right.
7 MS. ELLER: -- that require the permit
8 process?
9 MR. BROWN: Right, that's correct.
10 MS. ELLER: I'll defer to the JEDC on the
11 history of these particular phones because I
12 don't know the answer to that.
13 MR. BROWN: Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Shareef, followed by Bruce
15 Renard.
16 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, your name and address
18 for the record and you have three minutes.
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Shareef
20 Haleem --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you need to speak in
22 the microphone.
23 Over.
24 MR. HALEEM: My name is --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: No, sir. To your left.
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1 MR. HALEEM: Oh.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: There you go.
3 MR. HALEEM: My name is Shareef Haleem. I
4 live at 1456 East 24th Street.
5 I represent -- I and Ms. Janice Love with
6 the Eastside Neighborhood Association, our
7 reason for being here is not a technical one.
8 We're not here to discuss the legality of the
9 phones or we're -- we do not share any profits
10 of the telephones. Our only concern is that the
11 residents in the area and people in the area do
12 benefit from having a pay phone.
13 Some people may say that everyone has a
14 home phone or everyone has a cell phone or some
15 type of device, but that's not true. Very often
16 what's considered an emergency is not just a
17 911, but it's also to doctor offices, social
18 family services, 800 numbers, paying bills, and
19 et cetera.
20 So we urge the council to at least look at
21 it from the point of view that we need the
22 phones, poor people need the phones, people in
23 distress, you know, cell phone breaks down and
24 all that kind of thing.
25 Now, I do have a letter from -- seven
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1 copies of a letter from the Eastside
2 Neighborhood Association representing our
3 position, and we don't -- like I say, we don't
4 know the technical part, what is City property
5 and what is private property. We just know we
6 need the -- the pay phones in the area, in the
7 neighborhoods.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
9 We've got a question for you, sir.
10 Reggie.
11 MR. BROWN: Sir, through the Chair.
12 MR. HALEEM: Yes.
13 MR. BROWN: You own several phones?
14 MR. HALEEM: Do I own any phones?
15 MR. BROWN: Right.
16 MR. HALEEM: I have one personal cell
17 phone --
18 MR. BROWN: No, no, not cell phones. I'm
19 talking about pay phones.
20 MR. HALEEM: No. I have no interest
21 financially in any pay phones, pay phone system.
22 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
24 Bruce, followed by Janice love.
25 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
2 committee.
3 I'm Bruce Renard. I'm the executive
4 director of the Florida Public
5 Telecommunications Association with the
6 statewide trade association representing pay
7 phone providers in the state. We're based here
8 in Jacksonville, and I live here in
9 Jacksonville.
10 Knowing how valuable your time is, let me
11 just say our folks are most willing to work with
12 the City to try to work out a reasonable
13 ordinance. We think the outright ban is not
14 acceptable. There are differences of legal
15 opinion. While the City has latitude to
16 regulate the placement of pay phones on the
17 right-of-way, there are -- the only court case
18 on it really talks about standards for that, and
19 one of those is reasonableness, and we think a
20 complete ban just doesn't meet the test.
21 But more importantly, let me correct one
22 statement that was made earlier about fees being
23 paid to the City. There is not a permitting
24 system in place now. There should be. Many
25 other cities and states in the country have
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1 them. They do entail some fees being paid to
2 the City. That can be a revenue sharing or that
3 can be a flat fee.
4 Pay phones, as you heard earlier, are not a
5 lucrative business these days. So if there is a
6 fee put in place, we would urge you to make it
7 reasonable so that it doesn't result in phones
8 being removed.
9 But you can do a reasonable ordinance, we
10 believe, addressing the legitimate concerns of
11 the JSO and the JEDC that you'll hear about and
12 not just completely ban them.
13 Some of the phones that are out there today
14 are actually there pursuant to a City bid, the
15 City bid out the jail service. And as part of
16 the condition of getting the jail telephone
17 service contract, the folks had to put phones on
18 certain city locations. Some of those are on
19 the list that have been targeted to be removed.
20 But that's the only case that I'm aware of
21 where there are -- and there are fees, I
22 believe, paid pursuant to that contract today.
23 The rest of the folks pretty much inherited
24 phones from BellSouth. They were previously
25 permitted. The understanding was that it was a
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1 permitting system for the independent providers,
2 so they've just been operating them.
3 This has come to our attention now. We see
4 our role as trying to help mediate a good
5 solution here.
6 It was mentioned that there's a meeting
7 tomorrow. We will be there. We will do our
8 best to work reasonably with the folks to come
9 up with a good ordinance that addresses
10 legitimate concerns while still preserving the
11 pay phones for those folks that really need them
12 in this city.
13 So we appreciate your consideration of all
14 that. Thank you so much.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
16 Janice, followed by Teresa Barber.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Janice Love.
19 I live at 1611 Elizabeth Street, Jacksonville,
20 Florida.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am, you can pull that mic
22 down a little bit.
23 MS. LOVE: (Complies.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: There you go.
25 MS. LOVE: Okay. Janice Love, 1611
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1 Elizabeth Street, Jacksonville, Florida 32206.
2 I'm the cochair of the Eastside
3 Neighborhood Association. I've lived in
4 Jacksonville all of my life, which is a long
5 time, but anyway, my main concern is that
6 homeless people in times of disasters, we do
7 need those pay phones on the city streets.
8 I'm not -- I don't have any -- I don't get
9 any monies from any of the phones that are in
10 the area, but my concern is that when they're --
11 when it's necessary, there are some phones
12 available for our homeless people or even people
13 like myself who forget to charge up your cell
14 phones and there's an emergency. If there's an
15 emergency, you need to have access to these
16 phones, and that is my main concern.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am, when you say
18 "emergency," you're saying mainly to dial 911 or
19 to call somebody else, another residence?
20 MS. LOVE: Well, 911 -- if I am -- if I've
21 been accosted in the downtown area and someone
22 steals my purse, I -- my phone is gone with it.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, no, ma'am. I'm just
24 trying to determine what you're saying is a --
25 what you need it for is an emergency.
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1 You just needed to call law enforcement or
2 police and fire or something along that line; is
3 that correct?
4 MS. LOVE: Well, law enforcement and --
5 look at 9/11, look at Hurricane Katrina. I
6 don't want to be the voice of doom and gloom,
7 but those pay phones were available for people
8 to use.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I mean, I
10 understand. I just wanted to make sure -- I'm
11 trying to understand what you said by
12 "emergency."
13 MS. LOVE: Well, my emergency might not be,
14 you know, what everyone else considers an
15 emergency.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
17 MS. LOVE: Food stamps is an emergency for
18 some people.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, see, that's
20 what I was trying to get to. You were talking
21 just strictly emergency, public safety emergency
22 numbers or are you talking about just people you
23 need to get ahold of and have no other way of
24 getting ahold of them?
25 MS. LOVE: Exactly.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
2 MS. LOVE: Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Teresa, followed by
4 Michael --
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
7 I recognize some of you guys. I've been
8 down at the Toy Factory in the Landing for about
9 11 years now.
10 While those pay phones are private
11 property, about once a day I get some kids,
12 whether they're tourism or whether they're
13 neighborhood kids, who need to use a phone,
14 either they don't have their cell phones or, you
15 know, they've lost it.
16 In addition, I deal with tourists who are
17 at the Hyatt or at the Omni who don't have their
18 cell phones. They left them in the room, and
19 they need phones.
20 Art Walk is tomorrow night. I've needed a
21 pay phone on Art Walk.
22 We need these phones downtown, and it's not
23 just for the people who live here. It's for the
24 tourism that keeps coming to downtown through
25 the conventions, through all the events we
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1 have. So there is a need for them down here.
2 And that's really all I have to say.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
4 MS. BARBER: No problem.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Michael Bruno, followed by
6 James Brunet.
7 (Mr. Crawford approaches the podium.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crawford seems like he
9 wants a certain order.
10 MR. CRAWFORD: Through the Chair, if you
11 don't mind, I need to read into the record a
12 letter or a memorandum to the council president
13 and the City Council members as it relates to
14 this ordinance from my executive director, Ron
15 Barton, and then I'd like to have Karen
16 Nasrallah present the overall details that
17 Councilman Brown was referencing, and then you
18 can get into further details with not only
19 Lieutenant Bruno but Officer Brunet as well.
20 Is that acceptable?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
22 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. The JEDC is serving
23 as the Downtown Development Agency and is
24 responsible for the implementation of the
25 Downtown Action Plan.
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1 In a collaborative effort between JEDC
2 staff, members of the safety committee,
3 including DVI, JSO, the City's Public Works
4 Department, and JEA, we have worked to develop
5 legislation to effectuate positive development
6 within the urban core.
7 The outcome of this combined effort is a
8 recommendation to revise the downtown overlay
9 zone to accomplish the following:
10 Number one, deter and eliminate certain
11 nuisance activities from public rights-of-way
12 and public parks.
13 Two, to enhance the pedestrian environment
14 on downtown streets and parks.
15 And, finally, three, to support the mayor's
16 and the JEDC's objectives to promote a healthy
17 and vibrant downtown.
18 As such, the JEDC, recommended by
19 resolution, to request that the City Council
20 amend the downtown overlay zone, Subpart H,
21 Chapter 656, and the ordinance code, adding a
22 new section, 656.361.23, to address issues
23 regarding public pay phones in the downtown
24 overlay zone.
25 The resolution incorporated the objectives
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1 of the Downtown Action Plan, walkability, making
2 downtown a destination, making downtown a
3 neighborhood, and ensuring a framework for
4 sustainable success that enhances the level of
5 service for clean and safe programs.
6 The JEDC resolution, along with the DDRB
7 and the Planning and Development Department's
8 reports, are forwarded for the committee's
9 review. It is noted that the Downtown Design
10 Review Board's recommendation included
11 additional consideration that suggests that the
12 installation of emergency phones be considered
13 as part of this implementation effort.
14 In summary, the recommendations to amend
15 the zoning code regulating public pay phones,
16 activities in public right-of-ways and parks
17 will be a positive step in creating the
18 street-level environment we all desire for our
19 downtown residents.
20 Furthermore, it should be understood that
21 the JEDC's commission, the DDRB, the JEDC, and
22 the Planning Department all had a recommendation
23 for approval to move forward with this
24 legislation.
25 Thank you.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Crawford.
2 I have a question for you. Why is this
3 just downtown and not the county as a whole --
4 or Jacksonville as a whole rather?
5 MR. CRAWFORD: Through the Chair, we at the
6 JEDC are tasked with the downtown boundaries.
7 We are the monitors and the redevelopment agency
8 for the downtown. And, as such, we didn't want
9 to overstep our bounds.
10 We met with DVI, JSO, JEA, and
11 established -- and Public Works, and established
12 that the public pay phones were creating
13 nuisance activity, that the JSO was not able to
14 enforce the law. And, as such, this is our
15 resolution to allow for our JSO to do their duty
16 and remove nuisance crimes and even,
17 furthermore, other crimes that may occur around
18 pay phones, and we can get into that with their
19 presentation.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
21 Hold on a second.
22 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, sir.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown.
24 MR. BROWN: Through the Chair to
25 Mr. Crawford, Metropolitan Park, would that be
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1 included?
2 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, sir.
3 MR. BROWN: Okay. The second question -- I
4 know that there's conversation about placing
5 emergency phones throughout the downtown overlay
6 area. Will individuals have that same
7 opportunity to make a false alarm using those
8 phones as they would with the pay phone?
9 MR. CRAWFORD: I believe that -- I don't
10 know that you can stop anyone from picking up a
11 phone, dial directly to the sheriff's office,
12 and not have a rational case for doing so, so I
13 don't know that we can stop that.
14 MR. BROWN: Right. Okay. That's -- I
15 didn't think --
16 Okay. Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mike, are you ready?
18 Or, I'm sorry, Karen.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Karen Nasrallah, JEDC
21 staff.
22 Paul spoke pretty broadly to what the issue
23 is today, and to add to that, the Downtown
24 Action Plan speaks to four goals and objectives,
25 and, as he said, to improve walkability, to make
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1 downtown a neighborhood, to make it a
2 destination, and to create the framework for
3 sustainable success.
4 Right now there is a very strong perception
5 that downtown is unsafe. And until we correct
6 that perception, that downtown is unsafe, we
7 will never attract the type of development we
8 need in our city.
9 A couple of things that were mentioned,
10 that pay phones in our public right-of-ways are
11 permitted. They absolutely are not. I checked
12 with our City Public Works Department. They
13 have never received an application or pulled a
14 permit at any time. I also spoke with FDOT and
15 spoke to them about have permits been pulled on
16 the state right-of-ways. They have not. So I'd
17 like to make that clear right now, permits have
18 never, ever been pulled by BellSouth or anyone
19 else.
20 To speak to pay phones as a social service
21 for some less fortunate, I agree. And all of
22 our social service providers in downtown offer
23 phone service to those in need. They offer
24 services for those seeking jobs. They will
25 actually let you come in, set up a desk -- set
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1 you up with a phone so that you can not only
2 receive calls, but place calls if you're looking
3 for work. They will help you with long distance
4 assistance when you are seeking out a relative
5 or make any kind of personal calls you need.
6 So I would like to go on record for that
7 because all the social services are, for the
8 most part, located downtown, most of them do
9 offer phone service, and most of them are
10 walkable. So if someone is making a phone call
11 to a social service, most likely they're just a
12 couple of blocks up the street and they could
13 actually walk there.
14 I'd like to also go on record to state that
15 we're not egrerious [sic] to public pay phones,
16 to the pay phone companies or to those who use
17 them. My point in what we're trying to
18 accomplish today is -- we know there's a need
19 for pay phones. We don't agree that they need
20 to be in our public right-of-ways.
21 They can go out -- and if I were an owner
22 of a public pay phone company, I would mobilize
23 my sales force to go out and start calling on
24 private businesses and even some of these
25 nonprofits to have pay phones put on their
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1 property so there is accountability as to how
2 they're used and -- and taking care of those pay
3 phones and maintaining them.
4 Right now our ambassadors clean graffiti
5 off of them, they're filthy, they're not
6 maintained, they are a center for nuisance
7 activity.
8 We are trying to develop downtown
9 Jacksonville. We need your help in creating an
10 atmosphere that people will want to come to our
11 downtown.
12 Our Downtown Action Plan, 19 action steps.
13 Number one, make our streets clean and safe; and
14 number two, enhance our streetscape. I can't --
15 I can't express how important that it is to you,
16 especially enhancing our streetscape.
17 Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Karen.
19 Now, Michael, are you ready?
20 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Mike Bruno.
22 I'm a lieutenant with the Jacksonville Sheriff's
23 Office, and I became involved in this
24 legislation when I moved downtown as a
25 lieutenant supervising the bicycles and the
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1 carts and all of the officers that you see in
2 Hemming Plaza.
3 I also work with the Jacksonville Landing,
4 and a statement that was made earlier -- to my
5 knowledge -- well, to my knowledge, none of my
6 officers approached the Landing. I certainly
7 did not approach the Landing. The Landing is
8 their own administrative -- has their own
9 managers. It's their decision to remove the
10 phones if that's what they decide. We had no
11 involvement there.
12 In some of the previous meetings it was
13 discussed that pay phones were the only means of
14 communication during a man-made disaster or a
15 terrorist event or a natural disaster. I spoke
16 with the bureau chief of the Public Services
17 Commission. Those phones run through the same
18 trunk lines, through the same routing lines as
19 any other phone in a building. So in a natural
20 disaster or any other disaster, that phone is
21 not going to work any more percentage of the
22 time than any other building or phone in a
23 building.
24 From JSO, from the Jacksonville Sheriff's
25 Office side, these phones create a nuisance
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1 issue. There's some loitering at the pay
2 phones, there's drug activity.
3 Over the last week, we conducted a
4 panhandling and loitering deployment in the
5 area. We arrested seven individuals. We also
6 Baker Acted one.
7 Over the past month, in this same core of
8 downtown, there has been 20 arrests related to
9 panhandling, soliciting, and a variety of
10 issues.
11 I also spoke with one of the directors at
12 the -- I don't know his exact title, but at the
13 Trinity Rescue Mission, with one of these pay
14 phones off of Union Street, right there at Union
15 and Broad. He calls me asking for help. He's
16 running a drug treatment program, and right
17 across the street at the pay phone there's
18 activity where he's asking for me to get the
19 people away from the pay phones because they're
20 using it as an opportunity to commit crimes and
21 to impact his clients and adversely impact
22 downtown.
23 Also, from the sheriff's office
24 perspective, the accountability of the pay
25 phones -- and Karen touched on it briefly. The
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1 accountability right now with a pay phone in a
2 public right-of-way is right next to zero.
3 The sheriff's office is limited in its
4 enforcement activity. If it's on private
5 property and there's a business owner, that
6 business owner is going to have a vested
7 interest in that phone and take interest of what
8 happens at that phone.
9 Right now the business owner didn't ask for
10 the phone, he's not involved in anything that
11 happens there, and the accountability, like I
12 said, is next to nothing.
13 If that phone is in his business, if
14 there's nuisance activity, criminal activity or
15 other things, he's going to call the sheriff's
16 office and ask for it to be removed from his
17 property. That provides us with a complainant
18 and an opportunity to impact the crime in a
19 positive manner within the Jacksonville
20 Sheriff's -- within the downtown area.
21 In conclusion, we have more rules
22 permitting a -- permitting procedure for a hot
23 dog stand on the sidewalk than we do for a pay
24 phone that's poorly maintained, creating a
25 nuisance and criminal activity in downtown
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1 Jacksonville. What we're asking for is a piece
2 of the puzzle from you to help us do our jobs
3 better.
4 Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on a second.
6 MR. BRUNO: Sure.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Gaffney.
8 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9 Yes, Officer, I just want to ask you one
10 question, a concern of mine, which is -- it's
11 really been a very bad problem, particularly in
12 the urban areas.
13 One of my concerns is, why micromanage just
14 a little, small area?
15 I don't know if this is a question for
16 legal, but if we're going to do some type of
17 legislation or some type of amendment, why not
18 expand it throughout Duval County?
19 Because there are some areas -- one of the
20 biggest problems that officers tell me -- and I
21 will -- I grew up with officers -- is that these
22 guys stand at the phones all day long, so they
23 circumvent the law because they can stand at the
24 phone and conduct illegal activities. And,
25 therefore, if we made some type of legislation
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1 where a phone is being considered a nuisance,
2 that particular location, then it could be
3 removed at the request of the sheriff's office.
4 MR. BRUNO: Through the Chair --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
6 MR. BRUNO: -- I wholeheartedly agree as
7 far as the legislation citywide. This is kind
8 of a grass-roots efforts is my understanding.
9 I'm assigned to the downtown area, so that's
10 kind of where it started. I'm not sure what the
11 future goals are, but what you're saying is
12 absolutely true.
13 This is not just an issue that is
14 concentrated downtown, it's citywide. And it's
15 been demonstrated through community-oriented
16 policing and problem-solving strategies
17 conducted by officers for several months,
18 years. They have been able to identify that
19 many times pay phones are kind of a root of the
20 issue and worked to have a positive effect
21 there.
22 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on a second, sir.
24 Mr. Brown.
25 MR. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair, a
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1 couple of issues here.
2 I did hear that we did not as a city -- and
3 I say shame on us -- failure to enforce permits
4 if that was within our jurisdiction. We failed
5 to do that. And it would be, unfortunately, at
6 this juncture, to penalize -- and I'm stating
7 that we are leaning in that direction, those
8 that are -- that have that as a business.
9 I would say this, having come from a social
10 service background, it does sound good that we
11 could move traffic, especially traffic that
12 needs social service assistance, to these areas
13 that we have downtown because -- I do have one
14 concern with that, though. And I know for a
15 fact that it will create -- it would definitely
16 create an undue burden unless they designate
17 staff to accommodate phone usage there.
18 I mean, I've worked personally with
19 City Rescue Mission, and I could tell you
20 that -- with all the other concerns that we deal
21 with with the homeless population or folks
22 stopping in, monitoring a phone process is going
23 to take additional staff.
24 And, I mean, that's a -- something we
25 probably could look at to make sure that
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1 everyone is truly on board with that process
2 because I do believe that -- although we're
3 dealing with panhandlers and drug dealers and
4 all kind of unwanted activity with pay phones, I
5 don't know whether or not this is the --
6 definitely it's not the cure-all, but it is a
7 start in the right direction to regulate the
8 phones.
9 I mean, if no one is right now monitoring
10 the cleanliness of the phones, that should be a
11 part of the process, and I guess that would
12 occur if it was a part of a -- if we enforce the
13 permit because it will have criteria there
14 that's required, if you're going to have a
15 phone, if we did enforce that particular law.
16 I guess I have mixed feelings, and I --
17 that's why I'm really excited about tomorrow.
18 That will give us a chance to -- we can, again,
19 create a win/win because I know just from
20 Metropolitan Park -- I was out there Friday at
21 an event and there was an emergency that
22 occurred. A fight broke out and folks running
23 all over. And if you didn't have a cell phone
24 to connect with your loved ones, you used a pay
25 phone.
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1 And, you know, I hate the way that our
2 society is moving in terms of violence, but
3 folks need to have access to phones. And
4 Metropolitan Park is definitely one area I know
5 that is in need of pay phones now. You know,
6 maybe throughout downtown that could be
7 considered, but when we start really regulating
8 places like Metropolitan Park -- it's high use
9 with families. I do -- and everybody is not
10 that -- they're there, they need to make a 911
11 call, and I pray to God we never get to that
12 point, but they may need to just make a personal
13 phone call.
14 And so I don't know whether or not we're in
15 a position to try to regulate this throughout
16 the entire city. And if we cannot do it
17 throughout the city, I don't really know whether
18 or not we should look at every area within
19 downtown that's owned by the City, especially
20 the Metropolitan Park as one of those areas. So
21 I -- my intention is to go to the meeting
22 tomorrow to see can we create a win/win
23 situation for everybody, but I do know that I
24 have witnessed phones just passing by that's
25 unkept, and it's a health issue.
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1 And then, as Dr. Gaffney stated, folks
2 using it for personal reasons to do illegal
3 activities, and so we do need to come up with
4 some strategies, but removing the phones from
5 our streets is not going to remove the
6 problems. It's just going to shift the problems
7 to another area, and that -- that's what we're
8 trying to do, and we just need to say we just
9 want to shift the problem outside of the
10 downtown area and we deal with it outside of
11 that realm.
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, was that a
14 question for Mike?
15 MR. BROWN: Yes. In fact, it was
16 really -- because I'm -- it was really dealing
17 with the criminal aspects of it. And I know,
18 listening to Dr. Gaffney, that there are some
19 phone calls -- and let me just say this here:
20 Folks are making phone calls and using it as
21 their personal line service downtown. You would
22 agree with that?
23 MR. BRUNO: As far as?
24 MR. BROWN: Drug activities or --
25 MR. BRUNO: The pay phones are -- I'm
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1 certain there's a percentage of legitimate
2 activity. I don't think --
3 MR. BROWN: What about loitering?
4 MR. BRUNO: Loitering --
5 MR. BROWN: If you try to keep them
6 moving?
7 MR. BRUNO: -- or nuance crimes, it's -- it
8 seems to -- people seem to focus or just gather
9 there. I mean, that's a hot bed of those types
10 of issues, and this doesn't address -- or this
11 doesn't remove all of the pay phones downtown.
12 This only removes a portion of them, so the
13 legitimate population that are using -- or
14 utilizing the pay phones -- there's additional
15 pay phones.
16 Also, Karen spoke about it earlier -- and
17 this is an opportunity that is a win/win for the
18 pay phone companies to engage these social
19 agencies through additional pay phones in their
20 lobbies, which are going to be maintained,
21 there's going to be accountability, additional
22 businesses in the area.
23 Really, for them to get out -- they're
24 saying these phones aren't making any money or
25 they're not breaking even. If they were paying
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1 the City, then they'd remove the phones without
2 any issue because it's not making money.
3 But this is an opportunity for them to
4 engage the City and improve the pay phones that
5 the City is using, as well as improve their
6 business. So that, to me, is a win/win.
7 (Mr. Crescimbeni enters the proceedings.)
8 MR. BROWN: Right.
9 And, Chairman, my question then leads to,
10 will it make the downtown area better than it
11 would definitely make the rest of the
12 community? Do you agree? If we was to enforce
13 that same policy throughout the city of
14 Jacksonville, clean it up, pay phones, and
15 moving them from off of City right-of-ways --
16 MR. BRUNO: I believe this is the first
17 step where we're at right now, yes, sir.
18 MR. BROWN: Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman and Dr. Gaffney,
20 can we wait until after we close the public
21 hearing, and then we can bring Mike back up here
22 to ask him questions?
23 DR. GAFFNEY: Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
25 Thank you, Mike.
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1 Linda Harper.
2 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: You can pull that mic down,
5 ma'am.
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm short.
7 Good evening.
8 My name is Linda Mitchell Harper. I live
9 at 1615 Boulevard, Springfield, in Councilman
10 Gaffney's district.
11 I would like to say that I oppose the
12 ordinance that is proposed to ban pay phones
13 from the downtown overlay zone. I am opposed to
14 it because I was part -- and took part, rather,
15 in the formation and early development of
16 Florida Public Telephone, which is one of the
17 companies that's listed as violators of the City
18 ordinance as far as the right-of-ways and so on
19 and so forth.
20 And I want to say that the owner,
21 Mr. David Swearingen, took great care in
22 selecting, purchasing, and buying the equipment
23 to -- for his business to operate Florida Public
24 Telephone, and he also has real concern about
25 the cleanliness and his image and what have
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1 you.
2 The group that's proposing the ordinance,
3 they have depicted the companies as no count
4 [sic], greedy operators who are just in it for
5 the money, and that they are not concerned with
6 the public safety and health of the community,
7 and this is just not so in regards to Mr. David
8 Swearingen of Florida Public Telephone.
9 I would like to say that -- you brought up
10 why just the downtown area. They have presented
11 to you that there's a perception of illegal
12 activities going on and that downtown is
13 unsafe. I would like to say that the same
14 arguments were said when they went and leveled
15 LaVilla, and they said it was perception of, you
16 know, criminal activity.
17 So then they started rounding up the people
18 that had lived there for a long time and stuff,
19 you know, walking about and so on and so forth,
20 and arrested them for this, that, and the other,
21 and -- things that were -- you know, that they
22 just ignored all of a sudden when certain things
23 were coming into the area, improvement that they
24 got federal dollars for to improve the
25 neighborhood -- the neighborhood was destroyed
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1 and other folks got to take advantage of the
2 amenities that were, you know, from the grants
3 from this organization -- or from the federal
4 government.
5 I oppose this type of thing. What it
6 really boils down to is gentrification. It is
7 something that is happening all over the
8 country, and this is all part of what goes on.
9 The concern seems to be more for the folks
10 that are downtown, who are taking over and who
11 are living in the high-rises. They're concerned
12 for their safety, seemingly, as opposed to
13 citywide efforts to get rid of this problem, and
14 to take care of influential newcomers who are
15 coming in who have invested in the area. This
16 is the way it appears to me.
17 The group who is pushing this ordinance
18 also has -- the gentleman who represents the
19 legal unit of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office,
20 citizens made --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am.
22 MS. HARPER: Yes.
23 My time is over?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
25 MS. HARPER: I have a letter that's
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1 addressed to Dr. Gaffney that covers this
2 particular thing I was going to discuss. I
3 would like for him to have a copy of it
4 and --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: You can leave the copy.
6 MS. HARPER: -- thank you for your time.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
8 MS. HARPER: Thank you very much.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Terry Lorince.
10 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. Good evening.
12 Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, my
13 name is Terry Lorince. I'm the executive
14 director of Downtown Vision, and I'll be brief
15 this evening.
16 We are in support of this legislation to
17 prohibit pay phones within the City right-of-way
18 primarily for the reasons that Paul Crawford had
19 mentioned before. We think it will decrease
20 nuisance activity and panhandling. We think it
21 will make the streetscape cleaner, more
22 inviting, and it supports the Downtown Action
23 Plan.
24 We view this as one of the tool kits that
25 we have in our efforts to make downtown safer.
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1 We've already placed No Loitering signs at bus
2 stops and bus shelters. We put up hits, No
3 Trespassing signs at over 50 percent of the
4 storefronts downtown; we're increasing the
5 number of panhandling signs; and this is another
6 effort that we're doing to control the street
7 environment in the downtown area, make it safer
8 for City employees, for workers and visitors
9 that come downtown, so we would appreciate your
10 support of this.
11 And I have the testimony here.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
13 James.
14 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 James Brunet, with the Jacksonville
17 Sheriff's Office legal unit.
18 I think I was misidentified by
19 Mr. Swearingen as Michael Brunet.
20 Apparently there are [sic] some question
21 about a comment I made before JEDC regarding the
22 placement of a pay phone at the -- the Suns
23 arena, the ball stadium. I received that
24 information from the JEDC, stated the best that
25 I had to -- to my information and belief before
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1 JEDC. But if that turns out to be correct, I'm
2 certainly going to look into that and we'll
3 correct that issue for the record.
4 At this point in time, to our best
5 knowledge, nobody authorized the placement of
6 that phone at the ballpark. That's my
7 understanding of the situation as it presently
8 stands. I just wanted to clear that up before I
9 begin my comments.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
11 MR. BRUNET: Nobody is trying to portray
12 pay phones as the greatest evil facing downtown
13 because certainly they're not. There's no doubt
14 that pay phones do provide a public service, but
15 pay phones, from a law enforcement perspective,
16 present a two-dimensional problem. I say that
17 because they attract nuisances, loiterers,
18 panhandlers, vagrants, degenerates of all kinds,
19 and then they give those same persons cover, by
20 which I mean that they allow them to stay in
21 that area and remove from police officers any
22 legitimate means to get them moving along.
23 I spent six years on the bicycle unit
24 downtown and I've dealt with this many times
25 personally. When you approach a group of people
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1 standing around a pay phone, they have no
2 apparent lawful purpose for being there. And
3 you tell them they need to move along and the
4 first thing they say to you is, "Well, I'm
5 waiting on a phone call," or "I'm about to make
6 a phone call," or "I'm calling for my ride."
7 There's no way for an officer on the street
8 to defeat that, and that's the -- that's the
9 primary evil that we're dealing with here.
10 Certainly there are sanitation issues,
11 there are placement in the right-of-way issues
12 related to the pay phones, and maybe
13 Mr. Crawford can address some of the -- some of
14 the sizing of the right-of-ways and that the --
15 the room that we need for traffic, but from a
16 law enforcement perspective, that's not the main
17 issue. The main issue for us is that they
18 attract nuisances and we're not left with any
19 way to deal with the nuisance that we're now
20 confronted with.
21 And I would remind you that these are an
22 unpermitted use of City right-of-ways. Nobody
23 has ever come to the City and said, "Hey, may I
24 put a pay phone in your right-of-way?" There is
25 no permit process in place, and there's probably
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1 a reason for that.
2 These are not something that enhances the
3 downtown of our city. In fact, it does
4 nothing -- they do nothing but detract from it.
5 Downtown has a rather unique character.
6 We've heard some comparisons to other parts of
7 the city, and the question was raised why we're
8 not undertaking this effort countywide.
9 I suspect that after this legislation, that
10 will probably be looked at, but the downtown is
11 unique in that there's a large pedestrian
12 population down here that is personally and
13 individually affected by what occurs at pay
14 phone booths, and it is for that reason that we
15 have focused primarily on the downtown area with
16 this piece of legislation.
17 As a legal matter, it's an open question,
18 and I think Mr. Teal and Ms. Eller would be
19 better able to comment on this, whether or not
20 we could regulate to this degree the pay phone
21 placement in the right-of-ways over the entire
22 city. We may not be able to regulate their
23 placement based on crime statistics.
24 The days when Superman and Underdog would
25 dash into a pay phone and change into a
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1 super hero are gone. Pay phones no longer
2 present that kind of a public service to us.
3 They are a detriment and a blight to the
4 downtown, and we would ask for your support for
5 this bill in removing them.
6 Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
8 Seeing no other speakers, we will close
9 that public hearing.
10 Mr. Redman is first in the queue.
11 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 As the city councilman in the downtown
13 municipal area, the Landing and most of the --
14 down to Mr. Gaffney's area, which some of these
15 in question are in his district, it -- you know,
16 I get around downtown. I ride a bicycle around
17 downtown a lot. I've dealt with the homeless
18 and I've dealt with all the different issues in
19 the downtown area.
20 I think that these -- the pay phones do
21 create a problem. Of course, I believe -- you
22 know, I've talked with the police regular and
23 the problems that they quote are real. The
24 ambassadors that work -- and they do a great
25 job. These people are nice to everybody and
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1 have a great means of communication and -- but,
2 you know, we have the shelters downtown, which
3 have been brought up, and -- you know, and going
4 to the homeless people and trying to encourage
5 them to go to the shelters and get the help
6 there that they need --
7 You know, there's a lot of different issues
8 other than just phone calls. They can go there
9 and they can -- they can make the phone calls,
10 and they can -- but most of them that I run
11 into, they choose to be out on the street, down
12 on the north bank and Hemming Plaza, and they
13 create a problem as far as bringing people to
14 the downtown area.
15 I have a business out in the suburbs. At
16 one time I had a business with a pay phone next
17 door, so I know the issues that a pay phone
18 brings with it. The people that hung around
19 that pay phone were a real problem. Where my
20 business is now, I have no pay phone outside.
21 And I've had the companies call me, can we
22 put a pay phone on your property? You can make
23 money with it. From my experience, I don't want
24 that.
25 So, you know, I encourage these people to
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1 go to the private businesses downtown and
2 promote their pay phones in the businesses. If
3 they are something that is needed, these
4 businesses will allow them to do that and they
5 can make some money off of them.
6 And they're probably -- you know, there may
7 be some places that -- on public property, but
8 they definitely need to be regulated if at all.
9 And, you know, like Mr. Gaffney says, I
10 think this is just a start, but we probably do
11 need to look at the total city as far as
12 regulating these.
13 But I'm in total support of this. Anything
14 to help our officers and help the downtown area
15 be a better, viable place for people to visit
16 and live I'm in favor of.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
18 Mr. Brown.
19 MR. BROWN: Through the Chair, you know, I
20 had a chance to Google up -- this is -- now, I'm
21 finding out even throughout our country that pay
22 phones are becoming a nuisance, so it's not just
23 precluded to Jacksonville.
24 One of the things that they did note was --
25 they used the term "whipping boy." This is not
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1 the cure-all, and I heard that mentioned, to
2 reducing crime in our city.
3 One of the problems I see is that we have
4 allowed the phones to be installed without
5 enforcing regulations or permitting, so we --
6 we're probably clueless as to the number of
7 phones and where they are and who owns them, and
8 that's -- that creates a problem within itself.
9 One of the things that -- I don't want us
10 to leave here thinking that we can shift the
11 responsibility to nonprofit organizations. I
12 can tell you firsthand that the shelters, all of
13 them -- if you are standing there -- what they
14 call classified overnight, they put you out, off
15 their premises first thing in the morning.
16 You're not allowed to come back unless they're
17 serving a meal. And when that meal is over, you
18 go back into our city.
19 This is a problem. We have one of the
20 biggest problems -- we have this park across
21 from City Hall. They have nowhere to go.
22 They're not working and the shelters are not
23 staffed to accommodate all those individuals.
24 And so we have a greater problem, and I
25 think that -- you know, if we're going to really
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1 consider this -- I do think that we do need to
2 reduce the nuisance in our city. Let's do it
3 citywide. Let's not just do a concentrated
4 area, then it -- then it really gives the
5 appearance that we're really doing it for the
6 best interest of the city, we're not making one
7 particular area more better, if you will, if
8 that's a phrase, you know, you'd like to accept.
9 I just think that the appearance that we're
10 giving right now, that we would give to the
11 citizens is that -- and I believe we have one
12 city, one Jacksonville, we have one community.
13 And so if this is going to make the downtown
14 area better, I believe that it will make the
15 other areas better.
16 If that's a premise that we're operating
17 on, I'm willing to support it, but I do think
18 that we need to look at creating regulation and
19 enforcing regulations, I mean, for this permit
20 process, to make sure that we reduce the
21 possible nuisance that can occur from having pay
22 phones.
23 But, again, I'd like to just say that this
24 is not precluded to Jacksonville. I don't know
25 whether there's a best model out there. I have
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1 this model that we're looking at, has been
2 implemented. And before we, you know, move so
3 hasty to create an ordinance that's only going
4 to satisfy one area of Jacksonville, I -- we
5 just have to watch the perception that we give,
6 and I want us to be very careful about that.
7 I'm all for -- and I'll say it again, I'm
8 all for making it better, making Jacksonville
9 better. Let's do it for the whole city. If
10 we're going to do an ordinance, let's impact
11 everybody with this. Let's make all of
12 Jacksonville better, not just the downtown
13 overlay area.
14 I appreciate their initiative for bringing
15 it forward. And this is where good things get
16 started at, with an initiative. So if it's good
17 for the downtown overlay area, I'd like to see
18 us do it for District 10, if that's what we're
19 going to do.
20 Thank you.
21 (Mr. Joost assumes the Chair.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaffney.
23 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
24 Yes, I just want to expound on what
25 Councilman Brown -- and reiterate that I am
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1 concerned, and it is very frustrating to me when
2 my constituents are calling and the sheriff's
3 office is trying to patrol some of the problems
4 that we're having.
5 However, I want to make sure that there
6 isn't the appearance of gentrification and that
7 we're picking on one particular area, so I don't
8 want to micromanage one area. I want to manage
9 all of Jacksonville because this is a problem.
10 I know a lot of officers telling me -- I
11 don't think there's abuses everywhere, so that's
12 why I was saying strategically -- strategically,
13 if we're going to do this, then let's do all of
14 Jacksonville and -- because there are particular
15 areas of town where the phones is a very, very
16 [sic] problem, and they are used primarily for
17 illegal activities.
18 Therefore, if they're deemed as a nuisance,
19 then perhaps, then, through the sheriff, we can
20 have those particular phones removed. However,
21 if there haven't been any problems with the
22 phone in a particular area, then I don't want to
23 penalize a whole population because of what
24 everybody else is doing.
25 So, once again, if we're going to regulate,
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1 I think we should regulate and try to improve
2 all of Jacksonville if we can -- going to do
3 this, make this happen. I just wanted to bring
4 that to your attention.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crescimbeni.
6 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Vice
7 Chairman.
8 I appreciate the opportunity to -- I've
9 been listening to the debate on this issue and
10 the comments from the public and I wanted to
11 come down and give you my two cents worth here.
12 I guess my question is -- from the speakers
13 I heard earlier, there seemed to be, like, a
14 security issue related to pay phones, and I want
15 you to try to picture in your mind a sheet of
16 plywood and then divide it into four equal
17 pieces, and what you're going to end up with
18 is -- if you get rid of one of the pieces,
19 you'll end up with three, and they'd be roughly
20 equivalent to two of those panels on that
21 fold-down TV screen. Each of those -- you know,
22 the two panels, the two two-by-twos, imagine
23 those as three sections of the plywood that you
24 have remaining.
25 Now, imagine those separate sections, eight
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1 square feet apiece, being attached to a pay
2 phone as ears, if you would. Do you think that
3 would pose an additional security problem?
4 You can nod your head out there in the
5 audience if you think that would.
6 MR. CRAWFORD: (Nods head.)
7 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Because the wisdom of our
8 legislature is going to allow exactly that to
9 happen. You know, most people think pay phones
10 are going away. Don't see many pay phones
11 anymore, do you? They've declined.
12 Well, I predict in about a year you'll see
13 probably twice or three times as many pay
14 phones, and here's why: The legislature -- and
15 I went over and spoke on this bill a couple of
16 times during the session, but for some reason
17 the colleagues didn't -- in the Florida House
18 and Senate didn't listen to me.
19 But they've approved a bill. It's called
20 Senate Bill 424. It's a massive transportation
21 bill, and in that bill they are going to allow
22 pay phones to be erected in any right-of-way,
23 whether it be, you know, municipal or state,
24 with a few exceptions, interstate highways, rest
25 areas, et cetera, and then they're going to
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1 allow those pay phones to attach up to three of
2 those panels in the form of advertising.
3 It's not about pay phones; it's about
4 advertising. You know, this whole industry is
5 going to be driven by advertising.
6 And I gave Shannon a copy of the bill, and
7 I guess my question is, do we have the ability
8 to control that?
9 And before she answers, I do want to agree
10 with Mr. Redman and Mr. Gaffney and Mr. Brown.
11 What's good for downtown, in this case, I think
12 is good for Arlington and Mayport and Ortega,
13 Mandarin, Oceanway. I think it's good for the
14 entire city, but I'm just not sure we're going
15 to have the ability to control that at this
16 point because of what our good friends in
17 Tallahassee have done.
18 Shannon, can you comment on that?
19 MS. ELLER: Sure.
20 Councilmember Crescimbeni, through the
21 Chair, is talking about Senate Bill 2009-424.
22 There is a specific section in the bill which
23 says that public telephones, including
24 advertisements displayed on their phones, may be
25 installed in the right-of-way, and using general
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1 legislative construction, meaning "may" is
2 discretionary and "shall" means mandatory.
3 It does say "may" be installed. And then
4 if you go further down the paragraph, it does
5 have the caveat, "if written authorization has
6 been given to a public pay telephone provider by
7 the appropriate municipal or county government."
8 However, as Councilmember Crescimbeni
9 indicated, putting this in the state law does
10 grant it more weight and more support.
11 I would argue that the local government has
12 the right to say no. We have the right to
13 regulate our right-of-ways using our police
14 power the same way that we regulate our
15 right-of-ways to prevent off-site signage.
16 I would say that, from a legal perspective,
17 we have the right to regulate the right-of-ways
18 and prevent pay phones in the right-of-ways,
19 acknowledging that we're not preventing them on
20 private property. So these pay phone providers
21 have the ability to contract with a private
22 property owner and place their phones in the
23 downtown area.
24 We're solely focused on regulating our
25 right-of-ways, and whether it's regulating our
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1 right-of-ways to prevent off-site signage,
2 regulating our right-of-ways to prevent what the
3 state law is now, in fact, encouraging, as
4 Mr. Crescimbeni pointed out, pay phones with an
5 additional advertising placard on the back of
6 them, I think that we have the ability, using
7 our local police power, our zoning power, under
8 Chapter 656, to prevent those pay phones from
9 being in the right-of-way.
10 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Ms. Eller.
11 I guess the point I'm trying to make is
12 that while there's great intentions with the
13 bill that's before the committee -- and I would
14 certainly encourage the committee to support
15 it -- I think it's only the tip of what is going
16 to be an iceberg of a problem, and that is the
17 drive to put pay phones now on private
18 property.
19 So, yeah, you can eliminate it from the
20 sidewalk, but we have no way at the present to
21 stop it from going four or five feet back off
22 the sidewalk onto somebody's property because
23 it's not going to be about pay phones anymore,
24 it's going to be about advertising. And that's
25 where the huge problem is, and that's something
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1 that this council probably needs to get a handle
2 on very quickly.
3 Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
5 MR. REDMAN: In response to
6 Mr. Crescimbeni, that -- thank you, sir, for
7 bringing that to our attention.
8 That is very important. Although we do
9 have sign ordinances on private property even,
10 that you can only put so much signage, so I
11 would think if a person had a business, they're
12 probably using all the signage they can get on
13 that business and wouldn't allow that, but it is
14 something we need to be concerned about.
15 But, at this time, I would encourage us to
16 pass this and to get into a -- see what we can
17 do as far as regulating citywide, so I would, at
18 this point -- unless we can make an amendment to
19 it to make it citywide --
20 MS. ELLER: Through the Chair to Councilman
21 Redman, my recommendation at this point would be
22 to consider the bill as it's proposed, and the
23 reason is this: What we've done is place in the
24 record through the JEDC memoranda and all of
25 their data all of the information regarding the
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1 need from a public health, safety, and welfare
2 standpoint to exercise our rights to regulate
3 the right-of-ways in downtown.
4 Now, while we can do that exercise for the
5 rest of the county, at this point I'd be more
6 comfortable, from a legal perspective, if you
7 give the staff the opportunity to do the
8 inventory of the phones in the right-of-way,
9 identify the areas which could, in fact, have
10 the same type of nuisance activity that we've
11 identified for this bill and be able to put that
12 data together to have it in the record.
13 I feel like this bill, 2009-325, is well
14 supported from a legal basis with all the
15 information we need in order to defend it from
16 any legal challenge. I'd be concerned that
17 banning it countywide -- at this point, we
18 haven't had enough time to just pull that data
19 together.
20 MR. REDMAN: Thank you.
21 So, in that case, I would support this bill
22 as it is.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown.
24 MR. BROWN: Okay. Ms. Eller, going back
25 and -- one of the things I want to avoid is
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1 being haste in our decisions, moving too fast.
2 I understand that we have to have time to
3 complete an inventory if we're going to try to
4 launch this citywide. I'd rather -- my position
5 would be to defer this bill and allow legal to
6 do a very detailed inventory to make sure that
7 a -- because if it's good, I mean, eventually
8 we're going to go there anyway. So why are we
9 in a rush?
10 The phones are not coming down tomorrow,
11 and so I would say let's do what's good for the
12 city. Let's do the proper work now, do the
13 inventory. We wait to hear from legal, they
14 bring it back to us. And, at that time, then,
15 you know, we have all the facts, all the data
16 that's good for the entire city.
17 I can tell you just from a layman's
18 perspective, not having done any research, that
19 the concerns that we have downtown, I have
20 within in District 10, the exact same concerns.
21 And so that alone would put me in a position to
22 say that -- outside of legal, one, you'd have
23 more time to do inventory, that the same law
24 that would apply in one area of Jacksonville
25 should apply in the others.
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1 And so that -- I mean, that's the only
2 reservations I have. I'm all for cleaning up
3 the streets of Jacksonville if that's what
4 was -- that's what's going to happen. However,
5 perception is everything, and I don't want us to
6 be in a rush. And oftentimes what I've noticed
7 with government, we have this rush, let's --
8 let's get it through. I say let's get it right
9 instead of let's get it through.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Question for Mr. Crawford.
11 (Mr. Crawford approaches the podium.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you have -- would it
13 cause you any particular heartburn if we were to
14 defer this and take a broader look at this pay
15 phone issue to include the whole city as opposed
16 to just one section?
17 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, through the Chair, I
18 believe that the undertaking throughout the city
19 and county is quite expansive. With regards to
20 downtown, we do have an inventory of the 15
21 phones that we would propose to have removed,
22 and there are further details that aren't
23 necessarily applicable to the suburbs that are
24 applicable in the downtown.
25 For instance, take an example, the phone
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1 that is on Adams Street, between Laura and
2 Hogan, on the north side of the street, adjacent
3 to a retail establishment named Scottie's. That
4 phone sticks out into the right-of-way from the
5 building face approximately two feet. So you
6 have two feet of the right-of-way that -- the
7 pedestrian corridor, where people can't walk
8 because they'll run into the phone.
9 Furthermore, if you take an additional two
10 feet for a person who might be speaking on the
11 phone, then that takes four feet of
12 right-of-way. Beyond that, you have a personal
13 zone where you wouldn't walk right up next to
14 someone and brush them. You would walk two feet
15 away. So that takes up an additional six feet.
16 Therefore, you have six feet of a ten-foot
17 sidewalk taken up in the downtown that prevents
18 pedestrians from walking up and down the
19 street.
20 That's just one example of how it's very
21 different in the urban core as opposed to the
22 suburban core. The majority of the movement in
23 downtown is pedestrian oriented, not to mention
24 the fact that, again, we have continuation of
25 this nuisance activity that we aren't able to
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1 enforce, and it will continue until we are able
2 to modify the ordinance code, remove the phones
3 from the public right-of-ways as opposed to the
4 Hyatt, the Omni, the Landing, if they so choose
5 to keep it, other -- a Shell station off of Main
6 and Ocean. You've got a variety of different
7 opportunities that will not eliminate the
8 opportunity for someone to go and make a public
9 phone call on a pay phone.
10 So there's a variety of different reasons
11 why this is very unique and should not be taken
12 in the same context as the overall city in the
13 suburbs.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Holt for the
15 first time.
16 MR. HOLT: Thank you Mr. Chair.
17 Mr. Crawford, I have a question for you.
18 These are the only 15 that we're dealing
19 with on this bill?
20 MR. CRAWFORD: That's correct, sir.
21 MR. HOLT: Okay. There was mention of a
22 meeting this -- in the next couple of days?
23 Tomorrow?
24 MR. CRAWFORD: (Nods head.)
25 MR. HOLT: Okay. I tend to think that the
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1 best choice would be to go ahead and support the
2 bill at this point and wait for you guys to put
3 your heads together and come up with some
4 solutions if there are any changes that are
5 necessary and then we'll readdress it at
6 council.
7 Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Redman for the
9 third time.
10 MR. REDMAN: Mr. Brown, have you seen this
11 list? Through the vice chair to Mr. Brown.
12 MR. BROWN: Yes.
13 MR. REDMAN: That might -- you know, the
14 list that we have there are the trouble areas
15 that we have in the downtown area. So, you
16 know, that, I think, needs to be addressed as
17 soon as possible.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown for the fourth
19 time.
20 MR. BROWN: Yeah, and this is probably my
21 last time.
22 Yes, I have seen the list, and what I was
23 doing was looking at these pictures that someone
24 provided for us. And I really would like
25 everyone to look at these pictures. I mean,
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1 seriously, take a look at these pictures.
2 Now, I know about the store next to -- I
3 mean, Scottie's, the phones there, but as I look
4 at the other phones that are going to be
5 impacted by this -- they say Metropolitan Park.
6 That's the very first picture. It looks like
7 Metropolitan Park to me. This is not in the
8 right-of-way anyway.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, why are we --
10 Mr. Crawford, why are we taking that phone
11 away? That's a good question.
12 MR. CRAWFORD: Through the Chair to
13 Councilman Brown, this is right-of-ways and
14 public parks within downtown. It was a request
15 from the Parks Department to have it removed.
16 And as it relates to access to phones,
17 during special events, as you recall, there are
18 a numerous number of safety officers at every
19 one of those as required by state -- or as
20 required by city ordinance.
21 So there are a number of officers assigned
22 to every special event to take care of just that
23 instance, where there may be a fight or there
24 may be an issue where 911 is concerned.
25 MR. BROWN: And I agree with you, if I can
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1 just say this, through the Chair, and I won't
2 belabor the conversation.
3 With the amount of people that was at the
4 Landing on Friday, there was really nothing most
5 people can do other than flee out the gate. In
6 all fairness, I was there, I saw it.
7 I do question -- especially -- I mean,
8 that's why my reservation is there. I believe
9 we have to clean things up, but sometimes I
10 think we can go too far.
11 I don't know who in Parks and Rec made the
12 recommendation. I would be very interested in
13 knowing who made that particular recommendation
14 because as empty as the park is most of the
15 time, I can't see why this would ever be a
16 nuisance to anyone, because Metropolitan Park,
17 as we all know, is not a very used facility.
18 So as I looked at this attachment and you
19 compare with the list, in all fairness to my
20 colleagues, we really have to -- and maybe the
21 one on Scottie's should be moved because it's
22 interfering with the right-of-way, folks passing
23 by, but I don't think we can just take a blanket
24 list and say that everything -- every address on
25 here is creating some type of interference in
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1 terms of walking. It's just not fair. I don't
2 see that, and I don't know why we're in such a
3 rush.
4 And this is where we get into trouble at, I
5 believe, as a city, not taking the appropriate
6 time to allow every mechanic to work. And we
7 have to do that, allow every system to work.
8 That way we won't have to come back and deal
9 with this five years from now.
10 And I'll be done with that, but I just --
11 and it's not that I'm anti removing phones. I'm
12 very in support of it. Take Scottie's up today
13 if you'd like, because I agree with you, but if
14 it's not causing a problem, then let's take our
15 time and let's get it right. That's the only
16 thing that I'm asking. I mean, just for the
17 good of the community.
18 That's it. I'm done.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no
20 further speakers, open the ballot and record the
21 vote.
22 (Committee ballot opened.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BROWN: (Votes nay.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes nay.)
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 (Committee ballot closed.)
4 MS. LAHMEUR: Three yeas, two nays.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It's automatically deferred.
6 We need four votes, right?
7 MS. ELLER: Correct, Mr. Chairman.
8 If you'd do me a favor and go back and
9 reopen that public hearing.
10 Pursuant to council rules, you need the
11 concurrence of four members, up or down, to get
12 something out of committee. So your three-two
13 vote means automatic deferral, and my
14 recommendation would be to reopen that public
15 hearing so we don't have to spend City dollars
16 to readvertise.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll reopen the
18 public hearing and continue it.
19 Okay. Item 28 2009-326 is deferred.
20 2009-327. We'll open the public hearing.
21 We have one speaker, Elmo Aquino.
22 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Just here to answer any
24 questions.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any questions?
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Can we hear from
3 the Planning Department.
4 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
5 Through the Chair to the committee members,
6 this is an application for a sign waiver,
7 SW-09-03, ordinance 2009-327, seeking to reduce
8 the required sign separation of 200 feet.
9 Staff has reviewed this site and is
10 comfortable with the proposed signage. This is
11 really two separate car dealerships on the
12 contiguous piece of property, and so you do have
13 multiple signs, but they are undersized, and so
14 we don't feel that the proximity becomes an
15 issue because they are reasonably sized and
16 appropriate for the corridor, the location, so
17 we're recommending approval subject to the two
18 conditions in the staff report, that the signage
19 is -- shall be substantially consistent with the
20 exhibits provided in the application and that
21 any design changes to the signs may be approved
22 through an amendment to the final order.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Aquino, are those
24 conditions good for you?
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Does somebody want to make a
2 motion?
3 MR. HOLT: Move the amendment to grant.
4 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. The amendment to
6 grant the waiver has been made and seconded.
7 Seeing no further speakers, open the
8 ballot.
9 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Yeah, let me -- all
11 those in favor of the amendment.
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All those against.
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
16 MR. HOLT: Move the bill as amended.
17 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion's been made to move
19 and grant the waiver.
20 Seeing no speakers, open the ballot and
21 record the vote.
22 (Committee ballot opened.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 (Committee ballot closed.)
4 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
6 passed -327 to grant the waiver.
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: 2009-328. Open the public
9 hearing.
10 We have one speaker, Lisa Waas.
11 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Lisa Waas, 223 North
13 Fourth Street, Fernandina Beach, Florida.
14 I'm just here for questions.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions only.
16 Any questions?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no questions, thank
19 you.
20 We'll close the public hearing.
21 MR. HOLT: Move the bill.
22 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
24 seconded.
25 Seeing no speakers, open the ballot and
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1 record the vote.
2 (Committee ballot opened.)
3 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
5 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
8 (Committee ballot closed.)
9 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
11 passed 2009-328.
12 All the items on page 10 are second and
13 rerefers and all the items on page 11 are second
14 and rerefers.
15 So we're finished.
16 Any comments?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We're done.
19 Thank you.
20 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
21 7:07 p.m.)
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Diane M.
Tropia,
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3 STATE OF
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
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6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 10th day of May, 2009.
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14 Diane M. Tropia
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Diane M.
Tropia,