1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, April 21,
7 2009, commencing at 5:08 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 ART GRAHAM, Chair.
STEPHEN JOOST, Vice Chair.
14 REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
15 RAY HOLT, Committee Member.
JACK WEBB, Committee Member.
16 DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
ART SHAD, City Council Member.
19 BILL BISHOP, City Council Member.
JOHN CRESCIMBENI. City Council Member.
20 CLAY YARBOROUGH, City Council Member.
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
21 SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
22
RICK CAMPBELL, Research Assistant.
23 MARILYN ALLEN, Legislative Assistant.
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
24
- - -
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 April 21, 2009 5:08 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everyone.
5 Let the record show it is Tuesday, April
6 21st. It's about 5:08, and this is the Land Use
7 and Zoning Committee meeting.
8 And if we can start over here on our right
9 with Mr. Crofts, let's introduce ourselves.
10 MR. CROFTS: My name is John Crofts, and I
11 work for the Planning and Development
12 Department.
13 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford with the
14 Planning and Development Department.
15 MR. SHAD: Art Shad, councilman,
16 District 5.
17 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, councilman,
18 District 4.
19 DR. GAFFNEY: Councilman Gaffney,
20 District 7.
21 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt, District 11.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Art Graham, District 13.
23 MR. JOOST: Stephen Joost, Group 3
24 at-large.
25 MR. BISHOP: Bill Bishop, District 2,
Diane M.
Tropia,
3
1 visitor.
2 Appreciate it, Mr. Chairman.
3 MR. CRESCIMBENI: John Crescimbeni,
4 at-large, Group 2.
5 MR. YARBOROUGH: Clay Yarborough, concerned
6 citizen, and councilman, District 1.
7 Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, it sounds like we've
9 got a full house here, and I take it the council
10 members that aren't part of the committee are
11 here for at least a bill or two, so we will
12 start with --
13 MR. SHAD: Just one.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: We're all here for the same
15 just one?
16 MR. SHAD: No, I'm just here for one.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Shad, what
18 bill are you here for?
19 MR. SHAD: 2009-115.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: 2009-115.
21 Council members -- I'm sorry, committee
22 members, if I can get you to turn to page 6,
23 second bill, 2009-115.
24 We actually have a request for a formal
25 public hearing, but before we do that, there was
Diane M.
Tropia,
4
1 a card -- what is that card?
2 Greg Johnson did not put a bill number on
3 his card.
4 What bill are you here for, Mr. Johnson?
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: 2009-291.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: 2005- -- 2009-291?
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
9 Okay. We have a request for a formal
10 public hearing for this bill, so what we're
11 going to do is we're going to have the applicant
12 come up and speak for about ten minutes to give
13 his side of the story. We're going to have the
14 other side get up for ten minutes and give their
15 side of the story, and then we're going to have
16 the other side rebut what the applicant said for
17 five minutes, then we're going to have public
18 testimony, and the public testimony is -- going
19 to try to limit it to about a minute at a time,
20 but we'll let you say what it is you have to
21 say, and then we'll have the applicant rebut for
22 five minutes, and then it will come to the --
23 we'll close the public hearing and then the
24 committee members will deal with it at that
25 time.
Diane M.
Tropia,
5
1 (Ms. Eller enters the proceedings.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: If I can get the
3 committee -- those of you that aren't on the
4 committee, I can't see that you want to speak on
5 my board, so you have to kind of swing your
6 hand, and I'll go from that way.
7 And if we can kind of hold off -- unless
8 there's a specific question of somebody you're
9 dying to ask at the time, if we can just kind of
10 hold off until after we close the public hearing
11 and then feel free to bring those people back up
12 again. So you may even want to jot their name
13 down if you need to know what their name is.
14 Mr. Crescimbeni.
15 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Chairman, the
16 public -- I mean, the formal public hearing
17 rules, don't they allow for cross-examination by
18 the individual affected parties?
19 THE CHAIRMAN: They will -- all that stuff
20 is suggested, and I don't plan on getting into
21 the formal cross-examination.
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I mean, you guys can feel
24 free if there's questions you need to ask.
25 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Thank you.
Diane M.
Tropia,
6
1 THE CHAIRMAN: And that -- before we do
2 that, I think if anybody needs to declare any
3 ex-parte communication, we should do that before
4 we open the public hearing.
5 (Ms. Lee enters the proceedings.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, Mr. Shad.
7 MR. SHAD: (Inaudible.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
9 through it.
10 MS. ELLER: Thank you.
11 I believe -- Merriane, did you attach that
12 to the back of the LUZ Committee agenda?
13 MS. LAHMEUR: Yes.
14 MS. ELLER: There is the formal public
15 hearing order that has been indicated by the
16 chairman attached to the back of your agenda,
17 and so the recommendation is to open the formal
18 public hearing, disclose ex-parte, swear the
19 speakers, and have a brief introduction by the
20 Planning Department prior to getting into the
21 presentations.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shad, go ahead.
23 MR. SHAD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 Since the last declaration of
25 communications, I have -- yesterday at 4:30, I
Diane M.
Tropia,
7
1 met with Mr. Bill Joos, and he submitted a
2 letter, which I'll submit as well as part of the
3 record, that went over in detail many aspects of
4 the application.
5 I spoke today at 10:30 with Kris Barns,
6 quite a long conversation, many details with
7 regard to the application.
8 I spoke this morning, about 8:30, with
9 Ms. Campay. She spoke of the impact of the
10 application on the community.
11 I spoke around 2 o'clock today with
12 Mr. Morgan in response to an e-mail. He spoke
13 about the commercial intrusion and -- into the
14 neighborhood.
15 I also spoke today around lunchtime with
16 Mr. Leuthold. He -- general opposition to the
17 application.
18 I met on Friday around 5 o'clock with
19 Dr. and Dr. Fox. Dr. Fox presented some
20 analysis of square footage, values on properties
21 fronting -- not fronting, in front of a --
22 having a commercial -- abutting or nonabutting
23 commercial properties in the area.
24 Today, a couple of hours ago, I spoke with
25 Mr. Shakib, who continued to express opposition
Diane M.
Tropia,
8
1 to the rezoning.
2 And that's it. Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost.
4 MR. JOOST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 I'd like to declare ex-parte communications
6 with the following individuals:
7 I spoke with Mr. Harden in my office
8 earlier today. I also spoke with Mr. Shakib in
9 my office earlier today. And yesterday, over
10 the telephone, I spoke with William Joos, all
11 discussing the pros and cons of this project.
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: William Joos, how do you
14 spell Joos?
15 MR. JOOST: It's J-o-o-s. No T.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. No relation?
17 MR. JOOST: He says he couldn't afford
18 the T.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Gotcha.
20 Mr. Holt.
21 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
22 Since our last declaration of ex-parte, I
23 spoke with Mr. Harden today in my office, about
24 4:30, about the policies relating to this
25 application.
Diane M.
Tropia,
9
1 Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Gaffney.
3 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 I wish to express ex-parte communication
5 today.
6 I spoke with Dr. Fox this morning,
7 actually, in reference to the impact on the
8 community about this application; and Paul
9 Harden today, roughly about 4 o'clock, about the
10 policies and the impact, pros and cons.
11 Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no
13 further speakers --
14 MR. SHAD: (Inaudible.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Shad.
16 MR. SHAD: Thank you.
17 Two additional: I spoke with Mr. Harden
18 twice since the last declaration, last Friday
19 about the conditions that were added at the
20 Planning Commission, and then I spoke to
21 Mr. Harden yesterday afternoon around
22 6 o'clock. I spoke about removing medical and
23 dental uses from the property as well.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And since the last
Diane M.
Tropia,
10
1 meeting we had on this -- or the last
2 declaration, I've spoken to Mr. Harden. I've
3 also spoke to Kris Barns. I spoke to Sherry
4 Worman (phonetic), and that's it.
5 Ms. Eller, we declared our ex-parte.
6 MS. ELLER: Thank you.
7 On the order of items, the next item is
8 swearing in of all the speakers, and then a
9 brief introduction by the Planning Department
10 prior to getting into the applicant
11 presentations that you've already indicated the
12 times for, Mr. Chairman.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: If you are in the audience
14 and you plan on speaking to this bill, if I can
15 get you to stand up and raise your right hand.
16 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Comply.)
17 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the
18 testimony you're about to give will be the
19 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
20 truth?
21 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Respond affirmatively.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller.
23 MS. ELLER: Thank you.
24 Ms. Lee was calling me over, so that's why
25 I was out of my chair.
Diane M.
Tropia,
11
1 The next item is the brief introduction of
2 the matter by the Planning Department, and after
3 that begins the applicant presentation.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Planning
5 Department.
6 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
7 Through the Chair to members of LUZ,
8 application for rezoning 2009-115 seeks to
9 rezone approximately a quarter acre of land from
10 RLD-60 to PUD.
11 The subject property was also the subject
12 of a land use amendment that was approved,
13 ordinance 2009-114, from LDR to RPI.
14 This proposed rezoning, again, seeks the
15 reuse of an existing single-family dwelling for
16 conversion to professional and business offices,
17 including medical and dental offices, on the
18 subject property.
19 (Mr. Webb and Mr. Brown enter the
20 proceedings.)
21 MR. KELLY: The staff's review of this
22 application and site plan review was -- a lot of
23 it dealt with compatibility, and the Department
24 was really concerned about maintaining the
25 residential character, so conditions for
Diane M.
Tropia,
12
1 approval involved requiring the parking to be
2 placed behind the structure, in the backyard.
3 And staff is basically recommending
4 approval subject to the 11 conditions. There
5 were seven conditions -- or, I'm sorry, five
6 conditions added at the Planning Commission and
7 some minor adjustments to that, and I'm here for
8 any questions.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller, what's next?
10 MS. ELLER: We have the applicant
11 presentation, ten minutes, and then public
12 comments in support immediately following that.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, now, I thought we were
14 just going to have all public comments after the
15 first rebuttal.
16 MS. ELLER: That's your discretion.
17 This was the original suggested order, but
18 if you want to modify that, you may do so.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Harden.
20 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
21 MR. HARDEN: Yes, sir.
22 Mr. Chairman, Paul Harden, 501
23 Avenue.
24 I'm going to split my time between three
25 speakers, myself, Mr. Herzberg, and Mr. Mann.
Diane M.
Tropia,
13
1 Before we move forward into the facts, I
2 would like to provide some historical reference
3 as to how we got here today.
4 In August of 2008, a small scale
5 application was filed on this parcel. On
6 September 15th, 2008, the first public hearing
7 was held on this application.
8 By my count, this is the 13th public
9 hearing on this matter before the LPA, the
10 Planning Commission, LUZ, or the City Council.
11 The Planning Commission has voted three
12 times to approve this project, the LUZ Committee
13 has voted three times to approve this project,
14 and the City Council has voted twice to approve
15 the project.
16 The transmittal was approved unanimously,
17 including every member that's here today of the
18 City Council that was there voting for it.
19 In the interim, the Department of Community
20 Affairs has thoroughly reviewed the land use and
21 found it in compliance with both the City and
22 State comprehensive plans.
23 The Planning Department has on three
24 occasions rendered reports with regard to the
25 matter and reviewed the land use. They have
Diane M.
Tropia,
14
1 issued well-reasoned and thoroughly-thought-out
2 reports, and each time recommended approval of
3 the application.
4 You will be asked today by opponents to
5 disregard the work of your professional staff,
6 which has no reason to be biased on this
7 project, and accept the opinion of a recently
8 hired planner who was paid to issue a report
9 denigrating the staff's report.
10 I'll ask you to weigh the credibility of
11 the two and listen to Mr. Herzberg's comments
12 with regard to the new planning report.
13 The house in question faces Hendricks
14 Avenue. The bedroom is about 30 feet from the
15 right-of-way. I believe the traffic count is
16 higher, but assume the traffic count is as the
17 opponents say, 25,000 trips a day. That means
18 there are 17 trips every minute, 24 hours a day
19 going past the house, and that means that all of
20 them aren't cars. Some of them are trucks, some
21 of them are buses, some of them are loud
22 vehicles.
23 On the east side of Hendricks, all the way
24 from Emerson to
25 each house has been converted to a commercial
Diane M.
Tropia,
15
1 use. The people that live there and live behind
2 those sites, their children go to Hendricks
3
4 problems with safety issues going back and forth
5 to the school.
6 Indeed, the school board representative at
7 the Planning Commission meeting said that I
8 could represent that the school board has never
9 had a safety issue with regard to Hendricks
10 Avenue or the activity -- the business activity
11 along there.
12 It is an inaccurate statement to say that
13 the west side of Hendricks is all residential.
14 Coming from the south, starting at the Lutheran
15 church, there's an office building, a Gate
16 petroleum station, a City park, the area that's
17 in question, an elementary school, Metro Diner,
18 a retail facility which includes Beard's
19 Jewelry, and
20 All these back up to residential uses except the
21 two institutional uses which take the entire
22 block.
23 The use request is a small professional
24 building with a limitation of one story in
25 height, a limitation of hours of operation, and
Diane M.
Tropia,
16
1 limitations of uses. It is not a 24-hour care
2 facility as some have suggested. It is not a
3 three-story building. It's not for a day care
4 facility. The request is for a professional
5 office building on a limited site at the
6 location.
7 There are numerous conditions on this site
8 subject to the PUD, and we respectfully request
9 that you approve this as conformance with the
10 land use map amendment, which has already been
11 approved by the City Council.
12 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
14 Who else do you have?
15 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Herzberg will be the
16 next.
17 (Mr. Herzberg approaches the podium.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: You know the drill.
19 We're used to seeing you on this side.
20 MR. HERZBERG: I was just apologizing,
21 Mr. Chairman -- first of all, by the way,
22 Mike Herzberg. My address is 4071 Cove
23
24 I did only provide six copies. I do
25 apologize. I wasn't aware we were going to have
Diane M.
Tropia,
17
1 additional folks here this evening.
2 In looking at the Planning Department's
3 recommendation for this application, I find it
4 consistent with actions that we would have taken
5 when I was a staff member for that department,
6 and I find it to be good and sound planning.
7 Specifically, there seems to be a great deal of
8 discussion, this site being within an
9 established and well-defined neighborhood.
10 I would petition to you that this site is
11 not within an established and a well-defined
12 neighborhood. It is adjacent to, it is
13 proximate to, it is on the edge of, but it sits
14 in a completely different orientation. It faces
16 day.
17 Traffic volumes have decreased, as has been
18 indicated by the opposition. However, traffic
19 volumes have indicated -- traffic volumes have
20 decreased all throughout the city. People are
21 driving less. We obviously know that there are
22 less vehicle miles traveled. We're hearing this
23 on a daily basis.
24 But more importantly, the subject
25 property's orientation is something that needs
Diane M.
Tropia,
18
1 to be considered. As a matter of fact, the
2 operative provisions of your future land use
3 element include the locational criteria.
4 The opposition have prepared a document and
5 given you three of those. They have not cited
6 others which really carry more weight and should
7 be considered. The first of those is street
8 classification.
9 This roadway -- and you will see in your
10 packets that I provided to you -- is actually --
11 the roadway that this parcel faces, not the
12 others. All of the others in question that are
13 within the neighborhood face local roads. The
14 subject property faces a principal arterial
15 roadway, the highest classification of any
16 roadway in the city of
17 interstate or short of J. Turner
18 instance, carrying approximately 25- to 26,000
19 vehicles a day.
20 As Mr. Harden said, that is a rapid rate.
21 That's 17 -- I believe 17 a minute going by the
22 property, and more importantly about 17 times
23 more than a local road -- pursuant to the
24 definition of "local road" in your comprehensive
25 plan -- is designed to carry.
Diane M.
Tropia,
19
1 Obviously -- and the definitions are
2 included here for you as well. If you look up
3 the definition of "local road," you will see
4 it's not to exceed 1,600 vehicles a day. This
5 is not a local road. This is a principal
6 arterial, as defined by your plan, carrying in
7 excess of 25,000 vehicles per day.
8 Again, the orientation of the structure in
9 relation to that street classification, it is
10 facing directly outward. All others on
11
12 and the property next to it to the south,
13 realistically face back inward towards local
14 streets.
15 I brought some photographs which we can
16 either put on the overhead or I can pass
17 around. This is one of the subject property,
18 and one of the things I want you to note in this
19 photograph is the availability of on-street
20 parking. There's an incredible amount of
21 on-street parking throughout
22 [sic], both north and south and on both sides of
24 Again, the use is not favorable for
25 residential purposes, as you can see by the
Diane M.
Tropia,
20
1 property to the south. This is actually the
2 occupancy of the property immediately adjacent.
3 It, again, is not something you'd normally see
4 or want to see in a residential community.
5 And, again, I have just a few others that
6 show the availability of parking and the fences
7 that other people have. Most of these fences
8 would actually be illegal, being deemed in
9 second front yards. They would have to be only
10 four feet tall or in from the property line. As
11 you can see, these fences, and most of the
12 fences throughout the San Marco area, are out on
13 the public right-of-way, in excess of the
14 allowable heights along those corridors.
15 And just a couple of other photos to show
16 you the opposite side of the street as you take
17 a look at those.
18 Again, this is a situation where the east
19 side of this road is clearly CRO.
20 Also included in your packets are land use
21 and zoning maps. And if you look at the
22 photographs and what you've got there, you see
23 that every one of the lots on the east side
24 faces
25 properties. Again, these two properties being
Diane M.
Tropia,
21
1 completely separate and apart from most of the
2 other units within these Colonial Manor plats.
3 Also, it's important to note, those lots on
4 the east side of Hendricks are actually part of
5 the Colonial Manor plats. I've included those
6 also in there for you and highlighted those in
7 blue.
8 So, in other words, when these were
9 platted, the developer had the opportunity to
10 reduce the number of lots and create a couple of
11 deeper lots that would run off those local
12 roads. He decided not to do so because he could
13 get more lots if he was to face a couple of
14 these lots out onto
15 In 1939, at the time of these plats,
16 probably not a bad idea.
17 wasn't carrying 25,000 vehicles per day and
18 wasn't having vehicles passing this location at
19 45 miles per hour. As a matter of fact, on my
20 way here I passed it at 55.
21 But, again, what I'm trying to convey to
22 you is this is not a local road. And the
23 Department, as well as yourselves and others,
24 should consider these locational criteria.
25 Again, the street classification, the
Diane M.
Tropia,
22
1 public facilities and services, we know those
2 are available in the area. The land use
3 compatibility we'll discuss in just a moment.
4 But another one, the fourth one down, is
5 structural orientation and other site design
6 factors. This calls for us to consider the
7 orientation of buildings to each other and to
8 the major and minor streets. Again, a major
9 arterial roadway.
10 A principal arterial roadway is what we're
11 facing here, and our property directly faces
12 that roadway, unlike all of the other folks that
13 you will have speak tonight who are located on
14 local roads, obviously carrying vehicle traffics
15 [sic] that are not maintained, but I can assure
16 you are probably less than 1,600 vehicles per
17 day, consistent with the definition.
18 And, again, these definitions are all
19 included within the packet that's been provided
20 to you.
21 The other thing I want to point out is your
22 comprehensive plan does something different. It
23 defines "adjacent." It also defines "commercial
24 infill."
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Herzberg, just to let
Diane M.
Tropia,
23
1 you know, you've got about a minute left.
2 MR. HERZBERG: Thank you, sir.
3 Commercial infill is clearly defined as
4 being compatible and consistent with the strip
5 development in the corridor.
6 I think anyone would be hard-pressed to not
7 look at the zoning maps and see what it can be
8 described as, strip development on the east side
9 of
10 Again, "adjacent" in this case being a
11 defined term and, again, included in your
12 packet, also includes properties across a
13 right-of-way.
14 So, in this case, we do have two
15 definitions that lead us to conclude this
16 property is immediately adjacent to other
17 commercially-designated properties and would
18 qualify for commercial infill, therefore, being
19 consistent with numerous policies of the
20 comprehensive plan and numerous policies that
21 the staff actually pointed out in their staff
22 report, and I'd like to just kind of add on to
23 those very, very quickly because the staff did
24 an excellent job of that.
25 I apologize. I'm not going to have that in
Diane M. Tropia,
24
1 front of me, am I?
2 The staff did do an excellent job of that,
3 but some of those policies are already in the
4 staff report. Others include those found in the
5 commercial development patterns, and I think
6 3.2 -- objective 3.2 is included, but something
7 that I wanted to add to that -- the 3.2.3, the
8 replacement of commercial uses that meet the
9 applicable locational criteria of the 2010 plan,
10 again, calling for us to employ those locational
11 criteria, speaking to the structural orientation
12 and the functional class of those roadways.
13 In closing, sir, I think that you will find
14 by looking at the actual definitions and looking
15 at the actual policies of the comprehensive plan
16 and employing along with that the maps of the
17 comprehensive plan, being the functional
18 classification of the roadway system and other
19 things, you will see this is most definitely
20 consistent with the comprehensive plan,
21 consistent with the established character of the
22 area, and should be approved.
23 I thank you, and I'll stand by for any
24 questions.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Herzberg.
Diane M.
Tropia,
25
1 Ms. Eller.
2 MS. ELLER: Concluding that ten minutes by
3 the applicant presentation and moving the public
4 comments to after the rebuttal, at the end by
5 the applicant, now we're at the Colonial Manor
6 Association presentation for 15 minutes as the
7 requester of the formal hearing. And then, as
8 you mentioned, after the rebuttal by the
9 applicant, you are going to open it up for
10 general public comments.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Can I get you to set
12 that clock for ten minutes? And then we'll let
13 them know that they have an additional five
14 minutes that they can use for rebuttal or just
15 continue on.
16 My suggestion would be for all of you guys
17 that are planning on speaking to come down
18 front, save yourself a little time.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: From what I understand,
21 Chairman Graham, we have ten minutes for this
22 presentation, but we'll still be able to have
23 public comments from the -- members from the
24 Colonial Manor neighborhood, correct?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct.
Diane M.
Tropia,
26
1 We're going to try to limit the public
2 comments to about a minute. But if someone has
3 got to go a little further, then we'll allow
4 that, but -- just as long as we stay on point.
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: May it please those
6 council members that are here today. Thank you
7 for allowing us to be here to present our case.
8 The real facts regarding how 2009-115 is
9 inconsistent with the City's comprehensive plan
10 has been provided to you. Within our report,
11 within various e-mails and letters and
12 correspondence and the phone calls that have
13 been provided to you, we will focus on some of
14 those facts tonight as a reiteration and a focus
15 on those points that are particularly germane.
16 You've heard something from Mr. Harden
17 about there have been 13 public hearings and why
18 did the neighborhood come together at such a
19 late date. As you all have already been
20 provided the information on both -114 and -115,
21 those two ordinances, the City's own legal
22 requirements for zoning were not complied with.
23 Once proper -- or the notices were not
24 complied with.
25 Once the notice went up, guess what? The
Diane M.
Tropia,
27
1 neighborhood came together and organized.
2 It's a red herring to say, well, there were
3 13 public hearings, why are they coming to the
4 last few?
5 We are still at a time when we're able to
6 present our case and to object to this
7 particular plan. We are within our rights to
8 present our case to you. It is a red herring to
9 say they should have come earlier. We are
10 coming in the appropriate time. We came to you
11 before votes, we came to you before the
12 decisions were made, and we're coming to you at
13 the appropriate time. That's a red herring.
14 I want to ask some questions of
15 Ms. Sonneborn to answer regarding how this
16 particular zoning change request is not
17 consistent with the City's comprehensive plan.
18 This information is contained within the
19 report that's been provided to you, and I assume
20 you all have read it, but I do want to go
21 through some of these things in more detail.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, hold on just a second.
23 Stop the clock.
24 The court reporter did not get your name
25 and address.
Diane M.
Tropia,
28
1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Matthew
2 Posgay.
I live at
3 office address is
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thanks.
5 I just wanted to make sure that got on the
6 record.
7 (Ms. Sonneborn approaches the podium.)
8 MR. POSGAY: Ms. Sonneborn, if you could
9 tell us your opinions regarding the City
10 Planning Department's analysis of the zoning
11 change request and whether the Planning
12 Department failed to consider pertinent items in
13 dealing with this request in analyzing how it
14 impacts the City's comprehensive plan.
15 MS. SONNEBORN: Sure.
16 Dawn Sonneborn, Genesis Group, 9822
17
18 The Planning Department has to look at the
19 comprehensive plan to see if it's consistent --
20 if this rezoning is consistent with the goals,
21 objectives and policies of the plan, and they
22 only cited four policies to make their
23 determination that it is consistent with the
24 entire comprehensive plan.
25 In our analysis, we came up with 12
Diane M.
Tropia,
29
1 policies, two objectives, and one goal that
2 shows that it's not consistent with the
3 comprehensive plan. And that is, in great
4 detail, analyzed in the report that you all
5 have.
6 Most of these deal with protecting existing
7 neighborhoods and compatibility issues, which
8 Mr. Herzberg did not bring up. And most of
9 those are in there, and they're all detailed in
10 the report that you have.
11 MR. POSGAY: If you can tell us your
12 opinions regarding whether this zoning change
13 request complies with the purpose and the intent
14 of the City's comprehensive plan. And if it
15 does not, if you can give us some specific
16 examples as to why it does not.
17 MS. SONNEBORN: Well, one policy that I can
18 just state right now in the future land use
19 element, policy 1.1.7, it talks about gradual
20 transition of densities and intensities between
21 land uses. The subject site has already gone
22 through an RPI amendment, the RPI land use.
23 That's a jump in density from seven units per
24 acre to twenty units per acre.
25 Now, just for this one lot you might think
Diane M.
Tropia,
30
1 that's not a big deal, but this does set a
2 precedence for other lots. And I do have a
3 handout that shows the lots that do front along
4 Hendricks, and it does open up the door for all
5 of these six other lots to come in and ask for a
6 land use plan amendment and a rezoning for the
7 same thing. Therefore, it opens up the door for
8 the RPI to all come on the west side of
10 And there really is a clear line of
11 demarcation between the east and the west. If
12 you look at this segment of the roadway, there
13 aren't any RPIs right in this area for the
14 exhibit that I'm giving you. And this one spot
15 zoning will open the door to allow for that jump
16 in density from seven dwelling units to twenty,
17 and then allowing the nonresidential uses to
18 come on this side of the street.
19 MR. POSGAY: You're aware that there were
20 seven conditions placed on this zoning request
21 previously and now there have been five more
22 added, if my notes are correct, so now we're
23 dealing with 12 particular conditions to this
24 particular zoning change request.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, can I get you to speak
Diane M.
Tropia,
31
1 into the mic, so we make sure it's on the
2 record?
3 MR. POSGAY: Sure thing.
4 As you're aware, there are now 12
5 conditions that have been placed on this
6 particular zoning change request. Even with
7 those proposed modifications, the 12
8 modifications placed on this designation, can
9 you tell us, do you have any opinions as to
10 whether this zoning change request still
11 negatively impacts the neighborhood?
12 And, if so, can you tell us, does it still
13 contradict the purpose and the intent of the
14 comprehensive plan even with these 12 particular
15 conditions?
16 MS. SONNEBORN: Well, one thing that we
17 noticed was the traffic that was assessed for
18 this project was only for office use. And
19 medical and dental use, if that is still an
20 allowed use within this PUD, the traffic was not
21 assessed for that, and that trip generation rate
22 is 3.2 times higher than office use. And in the
23 Planning Department's report, they did not show
24 that as a maximum impact. But with this PUD,
25 someone can come in and ask for a medical use,
Diane M.
Tropia,
32
1 and that higher traffic generator was not
2 reviewed or reported upon.
3 And they also talk about -- in the PUD
4 written text itself, everyone is saying it's
5 just going to be a conversion of the existing
6 single-family home, but the word "conversion" in
7 that specific square footage of 1,250 square
8 feet is not limited in the PUD, so it opens it
9 up to whatever can be built, up to two stories,
10 if that is still a condition of the PUD
11 approval, which, again, kind of gets out of the
12 residential character of the area.
13 MR. POSGAY: If you can tell us, do you
14 have an opinion as to whether this zoning change
15 request, even with the 12 conditions, negatively
16 impacts the Colonial Manor neighborhood?
17 MS. SONNEBORN: Well, again, I want to
18 point to all your -- of your comprehensive plan
19 policies that do protect residential
20 neighborhoods, and, again, opening up the door
21 for the entire west side now, in this segment,
22 to go to the RPI and the PUD, allowing the
23 nonresidential uses on this side. So all of
24 your policies that protect the residential
25 neighborhood is kind of ignored in this area.
Diane M.
Tropia,
33
1 MR. POSGAY: Give me just one moment,
2 please.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
4 Stop the clock.
5 MR. POSGAY: If it may please this
6 committee, we'd like to save the remainder of
7 our time for additional rebuttal.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
9 MR. POSGAY: Thank you very much.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: It's rebuttal time.
11 Is anybody from Colonial Manor going to
12 rebut?
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Excuse me. Just
14 clarification, is this the time for public
15 comments?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: No. We're going to have
17 your rebuttal, and then we'll have public
18 comments, and then the applicant will rebut.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you, Chairman.
21 Chris Shakib, Colonial Manor. My address
22
is
23 Can I also -- how much time do we have left
24 for --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: You have a total of eight
Diane M.
Tropia,
34
1 minutes now.
2 MR. SHAKIB: Eight minutes. All right.
3 Well, then I'll take it.
4 But we're not professionals at this, and
5 this is a new process for us. Some of us are
6 attorneys, and we're used to courtrooms. We're
7 not used to this process, and so we're a little
8 bit disorganized tonight because the process was
9 a little different from the way we expected, but
10 that's okay.
11 The key point that we wanted to make is
12 this: We have a neighborhood that has been the
13 same for over 50 years.
14 Now, there were a number of hearings that
15 have been held, and you've heard from the
16 applicant that everything was approved,
17 everybody had no problem with this, and
18 everything is fine, and so why should we stop
19 that process now?
20 But, as you've heard, we only got into this
21 as the neighborhood very recently, and there are
22 a number of things that we found that simply
23 don't merit approving this. It's absolutely
24 inconsistent with the comprehensive plan.
25 Following the 12 policies and two objectives and
Diane M.
Tropia,
35
1 one goal, it -- it just doesn't make sense.
2 The precedent issue is what worries us the
3 most. There is a piece of property exactly
4 adjacent to the applicant's property, and
5 certainly the owner is waiting for this to
6 happen because the next thing that will happen
7 is they'll sell and you'll hear another
8 application for a change in zoning, and there's
9 no way for you to say no.
10 The other thing -- and hearing the
11 presentation that you just heard, I -- you know,
12 I talked earlier this week with a person --
13 Mr. Hill, from the Florida Department of
14 Transportation. And I asked him about, you
15 know, what's going on with -- as far as capacity
16 because that's one of the issues, and he said
17 we've got plenty of capacity on Emerson and
18 Hendricks. That's not the problem. You know,
19 even with the 87 trips, which it's -- if you
20 read the Florida Department of Transportation
21 memo -- that only recently was done because up
22 until recently there never was a memo as the law
23 required there to be.
24 The memo had a number of concerns, one of
25 which had to do with the p.m. high peak-hour
Diane M.
Tropia,
36
1 trips of 87.5, which opens up certain
2 requirements, one of which is that the driveway
3 out of the property be 24 feet wide.
4 I asked him, well, is this a problem? And
5 Mr. Hill said no because -- let me tell you,
7 amount of traffic on those roads is decreasing
8 significantly, and the reason it's decreasing is
9 because the trend is toward residential. We
10 don't have a commercial corridor opening up.
11 The trend in this area is not that it's becoming
12 more and more commercial. It's exactly the
13 opposite.
14 Now, as I said -- he's not allowed to
15 testify to that, and maybe I'm out of school to
16 discuss that conversation, but that is the
17 conversation. And people involved in this
18 process know that that's really what's going on,
19 that this is a more and more residential area.
20 On the other side of Hendricks, yes, there
21 are offices, and a lot of them are vacant.
22 The neighborhood does not want this. And
23 if you look at the criteria that you have to
24 evaluate, one of the main ones -- and when
25 you're talking about compatibility, is [sic]
Diane M.
Tropia,
37
1 where is this property going in the future?
2 And, ladies and gentlemen, this property is
3 going residential more and more. And if you
4 approve this, what you are doing is reversing
5 that and it's just creating another place where
6 commercial goes back and the whole process
7 towards improving and becoming a better
8 neighborhood is reversed and you see another
10 Boulevard.
11 You know, I come from
12 where -- in a town called
13 planning is very, very intense. And, you know,
14 the opportunities where they allow exceptions to
15 the comprehensive land use -- land plan are very
16 rare, and that's the way it should be.
17 If you allow this, there is no way to stop
18 those six other properties from doing the same
19 thing. There's no way to stop the next-door
20 neighbor to this property asking to change the
21 zoning, and then you put it all together and
22 have an even bigger project.
23 There are different elements from the
24 Genesis plan that we discussed and why it's
25 inconsistent. We'd ask you to take a look at
Diane M.
Tropia,
38
1 each one of them. Really what I ask is that
2 each one of you look at that Genesis report.
3 There are going to be other people talking
4 in public hearings. They'll address individual
5 items, but our neighborhood is improving and we
6 ask that you stand with us and allow the
7 neighborhood to improve and don't turn the clock
8 around and don't switch the process to a
9 commercial process.
10 I believe that several years down the road,
11 if you do this, you will see that even on the
12 east side of Hendricks it will be more
13 residential than it is today, and that's a good
14 thing.
15 Do we have any time left?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: You've got about two minutes
17 left.
18 MR. SHAKIB: All right. If you could stop
19 the clock --
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Stop the clock, please.
21 MR. SHAKIB: -- if that's all right.
22 (Ms. Sonneborn approaches the podium.)
23 MS. SONNEBORN: Again, Dawn Sonneborn.
24 One thing Mr. Herzberg had mentioned, the
25 City had called it a principal arterial, and we
Diane M.
Tropia,
39
1 have the transportation department's spreadsheet
2 and they're calling it a minor arterial.
3 And I also wanted to point out that the PUD
4 written text, it doesn't have a lot of
5 development standards and it says that the
6 details of the PUD site plan will be provided
7 during the PUD verification stage. That is not
8 a public hearing process and it leaves the
9 details that would typically be in a PUD site
10 plan out of the public hearing, so it does not
11 give the community and the citizens their due
12 process that would ordinarily be given in a PUD.
13 And then under section 4 of the PUD, it
14 discusses retail uses, and that is not
15 consistent with the recently amended RPI. They
16 don't allow single-use retail in the RPI
17 category.
18 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, is there
20 any time left?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. You've got just over a
22 minute.
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay. My name is Bill
24 Joos.
I live at
25 I'd like to provide a few comments.
Diane M.
Tropia,
40
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
2 MR. JOOS: I was able this afternoon to
3 leave with each of you or your secretaries a
4 letter that included a small copy of this map
5 here (indicating), and this map shows -- this
6 map shows that there is no commercial zoning on
7 the west side of
8
9 Give me a minute.
10 The applicant's case is based on two
11 misrepresentations; that is, one, that there is
12 commercial zoning on the west side of Hendricks
13 Avenue, and second that the zoning -- excuse
14 me -- the traffic has increased substantially
15 from 31,000 trips, when his client purchased the
16 property in '96, to over 70,000 trips today.
17 The Genesis report confirms without
18 question that, in fact, the traffic count has
19 gone from 31,000 cars to 25,000 cars in 2008, a
20 substantial decrease.
21 Mr. Herzberg has commented that this change
22 would affect only the site next door. That is
23 not true. There are four homes in Colonial
24 Manor facing the west side of Hendricks that
25 will surely fall if this one does, and there are
Diane M.
Tropia,
41
1 two others that have traffic cuts that could
2 also be affected. So 60 percent of our
3 neighborhood could go commercial if this is
4 approved.
5 The Planning Department in '02 objected to
6 a one-chair beauty salon on the west side of
7 Hendricks saying that it was improper zoning and
8 it was an intrusion of commercial into a
9 residential area. We believe those are still
10 true and should guide you all today.
11 Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
13 Ms. Eller.
14 MS. ELLER: I believe it's the time that
15 you've indicated for public comments for anyone
16 who was not participating in either side in the
17 presentation so far.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We have cards
19 for public comments. We're going to try to
20 limit the public comments to about a minute. If
21 you still have some things you need to say,
22 we'll give you an additional minute to kind of
23 conclude, and we'll kind of go from there.
24 Our first speaker is Colette Campay,
25 followed by Chris Wren.
Diane M.
Tropia,
42
1 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening, ladies and
3 gentlemen.
4 My name is Colette Campay, 1342
5 Road.
6 I have a neighborhood map of San Marco and
7 the area that was previously submitted to the
8 March 10th City Council meeting and the March
9 14th -- or the April 14th council hearing. It's
10 been updated. I will give you a copy.
11 And I'd only like to make one comment this
12 evening, that is, the applicant, Mr. Harden,
13 will ask you to focus on how many hearings we
14 missed in spite of the number of mailings you
15 said were distributed. But when our
16 neighborhood actually received proper notice, we
17 have not missed one hearing. We have, in a very
18 short time frame, been able to present a viable
19 case opposing this rezoning. We've been here
20 the last five meetings and we are here this
21 evening.
22 Please carefully consider the facts that we
23 present.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
25 MS. CAMPAY: Thank you.
Diane M.
Tropia,
43
1 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess to save you guys
2 some time, we know that there was no notice put
3 up, so there's probably no need to repeat that.
4 We know that the notices were sent out, but
5 there was no sign put up, so that's already
6 facts in the record.
7 And since there's not a whole lot of time
8 here, I'll just go ahead and save you guys that
9 time because that's already duly noted and the
10 applicant has already admitted to that fact.
11 And, of course, that's the reason why it's back
12 here before LUZ again, so --
13 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you, sir. I
15 appreciate that.
16 My name is Chris Wren,
17 I'm president of the Colonial Manor Community
18 Association.
19 Because of the real threat we perceive to
20 our neighborhood, we organized a nonprofit
21 corporation to do the best that we could to
22 defend it.
23 Because we couldn't believe that the City
24 would approve such a clear case of spot zoning
25 in direct contradiction to the goals and
Diane M.
Tropia,
44
1 policies of the comp plan and because the
2 overwhelming majority of our community is
3 adamantly opposed to this rezoning, we engaged
4 Genesis to tell us how it could happen.
5 The Genesis report provides compelling
6 evidence that you shouldn't recommend to approve
7 this rezoning. And to call that report
8 worthless, as the applicant did at the Planning
9 Commission meeting, when he has hired Genesis
10 himself, is outrageous.
11 Our association doesn't have a lot of money
12 and our efforts to defend this intrusion have
13 been inexpensive -- have not been inexpensive.
14 People have given what they could afford and
15 some have given when they couldn't afford
16 it. Retired folks on fixed incomes, who have
17 lived in this neighborhood for years, have given
18 more than they could afford.
19 I bought in Colonial Manor 22 years ago
20 because I knew it would be residential. I just
21 knew that that great green stretch of homes from
22 Hendricks west to the river was something the
23 City would always protect.
24 I thought that our property values would
25 increase or at least remain constant, but if you
Diane M.
Tropia,
45
1 approve this, they won't.
2 These homes are the only real estate most
3 of us own, the only real estate most of us own.
4 That's not true for many people here today, so
5 values have to matter to us.
6 It's just plain wrong to let one man
7 destroy all that -- to operate to the detriment
8 of 73 homeowners in Colonial Manor, 73 homes.
9 Please, please don't let this happen.
10 Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
12 I have Dawn Sonneborn. I'm sorry if I
13 butchered your name.
14 MS. SONNEBORN: I've already spoken.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
16 Bill Bryers [sic], followed by Kris Barns.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: And if I butcher your name,
19 it's not intentional.
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: The name is Bill Byers
21 with the Genesis Group, 9822
22 Circle.
23 I'd like to distribute to you a
24 transportation -- a trip generation analysis
25 that was done, post the analysis by the Planning
Diane M.
Tropia,
46
1 staff and the FDOT.
2 The things that I wanted to point out in
3 the -- in our analysis is essentially that --
4 the things that were pointed out before.
5 There was -- there was a memorandum
6 generated by the FDOT on January 8th of 2009
7 that referred to an incorrect PUD, an incorrect
8 rezoning, and that was what was in the file and
9 what was conditioned in the first amendment that
10 was created by this committee that was referred
11 to as a condition of approval.
12 On April 14th, the date of the public
13 hearing at the City Council last week, the FDOT
14 generated another memorandum. The first
15 memorandum that was not related to this project
16 included no comments. The FDOT memorandum that
17 referred to this project included substantial
18 comments, including the fact that the segment of
20 impacted by this development. It stated that
21 there would be 87 p.m. peak-hour trips --
22 87 p.m. peak-hour trips in the postdevelopment
23 condition if allowed to -- if the RPI land use
24 amendment was approved.
25 The things that we're concerned about is
Diane M.
Tropia,
47
1 that in the analysis done by Planning staff,
2 Transportation Planning Department, and the
3 FDOT, none of the considerations allowed for
4 medical and dental uses.
5 If that's not a condition of the approval,
6 then we would recommend that that be conditions
7 of approval because it substantially affects the
8 trip generation on this project.
9 The trip generation for a medical/dental
10 office as opposed to a general office use is
11 3.2 times the number of trips which could
12 potentially for this development be as -- what's
13 considered a substantial change to the FDOT
14 connection.
15 We just wanted to point out those concerns
16 and the fact that you based your recommend- --
17 the recommendation that staff gave you on the
18 previous LUZ amendment was based on a memorandum
19 and some trip generation that was inaccurate,
20 and we provided some -- some accurate
21 information for you to base your decision on.
22 We urge you to take it into account in
23 making your decision.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
Diane M.
Tropia,
48
1 Kris Barns, followed by Missie Leprell.
2 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good afternoon.
4 Thank you, Mr. Chairman, council members,
5 staff.
6 For those of you that don't know me well, I
7 am 54 -- oh, first, sorry.
8 Kris Barns, 957 Old Grove Manor, 32207.
9 I am 54 years old. I was born at
10
11 generation on my father's side of the Broward
12 family here in
13 have some history, some time in the neighborhood
14 because when I was born, my parents lived in
15
16 San Marco, where
17 restaurant is now, from 1956.
18 I made the drive as a child, as a teenager,
19 as an adult, until my father sold his home in
20
21 I can tell you when Hendricks was a
22 two-lane road to Hendricks being a four-lane
23 road. I can tell you when the first thing past
24
25 thing was the Mandarin market with the little
Diane M.
Tropia,
49
1 train. That was the next commercial property
2 that you saw going south on
3 I agree with the other speakers who
4 thought -- we bought homes in that
5 neighborhood. I bought there with my ex-husband
6 31 years ago because we knew this was an
7 established neighborhood that would never be
8 intruded by commercial zoning.
9 The west side -- I mean the east side of
10 Hendricks, we knew that. That's been there a
11 long time.
12 But when you look at the Southside United
13
14 commercial thing is Southside United Methodist
15 Church, Beard's Jewelry. That little building
16 was built in the 1940s or '50s at the absolute
17 latest.
18 The Metro Diner is housed in a building
19 that was there in the late 1930s because my
20 father used to eat there, because my grandfather
21 built his home at the corner of Hendricks and
22 River
23 He lived in the country back then.
24 So I have watched this whole area change,
25 and that is the wonderful thing, is it has not
Diane M.
Tropia,
50
1 changed that dramatically, but you know as
2 City Council members that you can't say that
3 about going on down
4 cross Goodby's Creek, and that is the use
5 of -- abuse over the years, not by y'all
6 necessarily, but of never sticking to a plan for
7 our city.
8 When every time we have to ask ourselves
9 who is
10
reason we don't know who
11 because we've never had a plan.
12 My father is an architect. He's 83 years
13 old. When I was probably five years old, he and
14 a bunch of other architects, some planners and
15 engineers got together and presented a great,
16 viable plan to the City of how you could
17 integrate commercial and residential with a plan
18 so you knew where you were going.
19 Nobody could stick to an idea. You know,
20 this is not -- this is a precedent-setting
21 decision. There is process, I fully respect
22 that as a former school board member --
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Barns.
24 MS. BARNS: -- but you also don't -- I'm
25 just saying -- real quick, Mr. Graham.
Diane M.
Tropia,
51
1 You don't have to always do what's not best
2 for the citizens and the quality of life of the
3 citizens in your city as we try to revitalize
4 downtown.
5 Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Barns. And
7 it's good to see you again.
8 MS. BARNS: Thank you.
9 Good to see you.
10 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
12 I'm Missie Sara Leprell. I live at 2640
14 San Marco Preservation Society.
15 The San Marco Preservation Society, as
16 authorized by its board of directors, does not
17 support the land use for the above-referenced
18 property from LDR to RPL [sic], nor does the
19 San Marco Preservation Society board support the
20 companion PUD rezoning application.
21 If the use of the property changes to a
22 professional business, it is not clear from the
23 application if it will be reflective of the
24 character of the adjoining neighborhood, which
25 is currently one-story, single-family homes.
Diane M. Tropia,
52
1 Although professional offices are located
2 on the east side of
3 property at
4 side of the road, will be an isolated commercial
5 structure.
6 The San Marco Preservation Society supports
7 the position of the residents in the adjacent
8 neighborhood as they feel that this change may
9 have an adverse impact on the five single-family
10 homes that abut the subject property.
11 Please enter a copy of this letter into the
12 record of the proceedings regarding ordinance
13 2009-114 and -115 as it is appropriate, and
14 thank you for your consideration.
15 Now, on a personal level, my occupation is
16 a realtor and I am so worried about the negative
17 impact of this rezoning on residential property
18 in San Marco, particularly this area.
19 I have clients who I've put in this
20 particular zone. They have called me, they call
21 me, they're in a panic. They're worried about
22 the safety of their children riding bikes in
23 this area. They're worried about their real
24 estate values. Some of them are getting ready
25 to move and they say, oh, my God. Is my value
Diane M.
Tropia,
53
1 changing?
2 And one of the questions that they keep
3 asking is, you know, why do we have a
4 comprehensive plan if we're not adhering to it?
5 What is the point?
6 I mean, so much labor was put into creating
7 a comprehensive plan, which is, after all,
8 guidelines to create order. Well, why do we
9 have it if we don't adhere to it?
10 And I can't give them an answer because I
11 thought we did follow them, just like we follow
12 other rules and regulations.
13 So, you know, I hope that you will pay
14 attention to this because I know in this economy
15 you are suffering, like I am, my family and
16 everyone else's family who's in here.
17 And first we're worried about our children
18 and then we are worried about our property
19 values because real estate is not doing well, my
20 friends. I am suffering, and so is everyone
21 else, and I hope your property values are going
22 to, you know, raise up in the next few years.
23 And please help us in this because we don't
24 need any more problems with our property
25 values. They have been hurt enough in the last
Diane M.
Tropia,
54
1 two-and-a-half years.
2 Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
4 I have Janelle Mulrain.
5 Ma'am, I'm sorry.
6 Janelle Mulrain, and Emilio Zeller.
7 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Janelle Mulrain, 1416
9 Pine Tree.
10 And I'm here as an adjacent property owner
11 and someone extremely conscious that my property
12 values are going to go down, just as you would
13 be if you were going to be adjacent to a parking
14 lot.
15 I have a piece of paper. Please take a
16 moment and just breeze through this.
17 Number one, this is an intrusion into
18 Colonial Manor and it is an intrusion to the
19 back of my property.
20 Number two, lower property values have
21 already stated [sic].
22 Number three, the ingress and egress.
23 Please look at it carefully because it promotes
24 a very dangerous risk. It's a dangerous risk
25 now, and if you add commercial intrusion into
Diane M.
Tropia,
55
1 there, you are going to possibly face a lawsuit
2 in the future because I cannot believe there
3 will not be something terrible that could happen
4 at that corner because of the present 8-foot
5 fence where you cannot see coming or going to go
6 into the property.
7 Number four, please read that carefully
8 because when Colette went to the Planning
9 Commission, she was told there was no site
10 plan. All of a sudden last week -- the site
11 plan is evidenced on the back here, and I
12 believe it's dated 12/22/06. And if you notice,
13 it says it's 12 feet between where the fireplace
14 is to the fence. Can't be. We measured it
15 yesterday. It's 8-and-a-half feet. So please
16 read number four very carefully and consider
17 that.
18 Number -- after number four, number five,
19 there are three major trees on the property.
20 Once cut down, my 92-year-old neighbor will have
21 nothing to look at but the parking lot.
22 Number six we've already said. It
23 doesn't -- it's not consistent with the
24 comprehensive plan. It does not further the
25 goals and objectives. It does not allow the
Diane M.
Tropia,
56
1 rezoning because it contributes to the urban
2 sprawl, and we've talked about spot zoning,
3 et cetera.
4 Please just take a minute to read that for
5 us.
6 In summary, no one has stepped up that I
7 know of in support of this except the agent.
8 We're here as a collective group of people.
9 Please listen to us. We don't want this
10 happening.
11 We know the property next to it is going to
12 be next on the docket, then I'm going to be
13 looking at a two-story building.
14 I am a realtor too. I am not stupid. I
15 know exactly what's going to happen, and so do
16 y'all. Please don't let this happen to our
17 neighborhood. Don't let it happen to my
18 property, which is an investment for my children
19 I bought two-and-a-half years ago because I
20 thought it was going to be a residence, and now
21 you're changing the character of my piece of
22 property, and that really isn't fair.
23 Please consider what you're doing to the
24 five people, minus the one now, the four people
25 who have adjacent property next to this piece of
Diane M.
Tropia,
57
1 land.
2 Anyway, please don't bend over backwards to
3 make something happen that shouldn't happen.
4 Please read it very, very carefully, especially
5 number four.
6 Thank you very much for your time.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
8 Emilio Zeller, followed by Mike Fox.
9 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am Emilio Zeller. I
11 live at
12 I moved on
13 1943. Out of my bedroom window I could see this
14 house. I was there for about 19 years.
15 Briefly, I lived in -- other side of town, then
16 I came back. My wife and I bought our house at
17 37 -- 45 years ago, 44 years ago.
18 I, like Kris Barns' father, raised on
19 Hendricks, graduated from Blanding, graduated
20 from Georgia Tech, and practiced architecture.
21 Seated right there is one of the finest
22 architects in the
23 going to say what he said before. I hope y'all
24 listen to him. His wife is a fantastic
25 architect. Melodie is wonderful.
Diane M.
Tropia,
58
1 And over there is Mr. Crescimbeni. I have
2 a feeling he's here to address this.
3 These people love their city. We love our
4 city.
5 Now, take a ride for ten miles from
6 San Marco all the way to
7 Julington Creek, and it is one of the most
8 beautiful ten miles you will ever drive on.
9 We have been all over -- my wife and I, all
10 over the country and
11 probably found some ten miles of urban
12 residential. Can't think of it, except maybe
13
14 We have it here. We used to have it here
15 on University, Blanding, Lem Turner,
16 et cetera. They're gone. They're gone forever,
17 and it all started with a little house changed
18 to a business. It's so innocuous sounding. It
19 is a disaster, a total disaster.
20 Please save our neighborhood. Please save
21 the rest of the city. It's a drive y'all can
22 take and enjoy. We enjoy it all the time,
23 obviously, I moved right back to where I grew
24 up.
25 Thank you.
Diane M.
Tropia,
59
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
2 Mike fox.
3 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
5 Mike Fox,
6 I actually live outside of Colonial Manor
7 but in San Marco, and also very concerned about
8 the current rezoning.
9 I would like to just say I appreciate the
10 support of those councilmen who have supported
11 us thus far.
12 Just maybe a -- somewhat of a psychological
13 point, but if I was in a group like you are and
14 I had a district person in the district, I would
15 look to that person to be my support to tell me
16 what we should do.
17 I know y'all are busy, you don't have time
18 to dive into every issue all the way, but Art
19 Shad has not represented us at all.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, we just -- we need to
21 stay generic. Let's not pinpoint it to anybody
22 specific. You can talk about your --
23 DR. FOX: Well -- our district.
24 So I would ask all of you to listen to the
25 constituents who are all here. It seems to be
Diane M.
Tropia,
60
1 unanimous opposition to this action.
2 I personally walked the neighborhood,
3 talked to probably 40 people. They all are not
4 in support of this.
5 I mean, clearly -- I think you've heard
6 from all the other speakers. I mean, to me,
7 it's understandable, the process of this, the
8 zoning board, the planning committee. I mean,
9 Mr. Harden works here all the time. I work in a
10 certain environment too. Those people would
11 support me if I came with a relatively unopposed
12 request.
13 We've only had four weeks to oppose this.
14 And, you know, I've been told that that was our
15 time to talk, yet the support seems to be
16 because the zoning and planning committees have
17 signed off on this.
18 I would almost ask the council to give more
19 time, maybe review this again in the zoning
20 committee given our new evidence that we've
21 presented and our consultant's report. We went
22 to a lot of trouble to get that done.
23 So again, please, as a council -- one
24 person against hundreds of citizens that live in
25 the district that are not in support of this.
Diane M.
Tropia,
61
1 Please support this.
2 Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
4 Felicia Fox, followed by Jon Livingston.
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening, everyone.
7 My name is Felicia Fox. I reside at 2311
8 Laurel Road, and also own the home at 1441
10 I'd like to take a few minutes to address
11 three specific issues. I have discussed these
12 at previous council meetings but have some
13 additional information and appreciate the
14 opportunity to discuss these issues again.
15 First of all, I'd like to reiterate my
16 experience with the street noise. I said before
17 I spend most of the time in my home in the room
18 closest to
19 subject property has been of considerable
20 concern to the applicant. And, again, I have no
21 noise barrier in my front yard and during the
22 five years that I've lived there, I found the
23 noise on the street to be minimal with no impact
24 to my ability to enjoy the neighborhood.
25 Secondly, as I also stated previously and
Diane M.
Tropia,
62
1 obviously tonight, I'm an OB/GYN physician who
2 owns and operates my own practice. I gave you
3 some statistics at the last meeting on office
4 space and how my physician practice could affect
5 the space.
6 It is my understanding that with some
7 clarification in regard specifically to the
8 property at
9 could only encompass approximately 1,200 square
10 feet. And, furthermore, I understand that the
11 applicant has removed clinic use as a possible
12 function for this property.
13 To help members of the committee and
14 Mr. Harden understand, I do not operate a
15 clinic.
16 Traditionally, a health clinic refers to a
17 federally- or state-funded clinic where under-
18 or uninsured patients have the opportunity to
19 gain access to health care.
20 My office consists predominantly of
21 privately-insured patients, and we certainly --
22 as do all physicians who own and operate their
23 own private practice -- consider ourselves a
24 medical office, not a clinic.
25 In addition to the details of my practice
Diane M.
Tropia,
63
1 outlined at a previous council meeting, I also
2 operate a 1,200-square-foot satellite office.
3 Using the same methodology of my previous
4 analysis, in that office we could see 48
5 obstetric patients in a day and could have 160
6 cars visiting our facility in an eight-hour day
7 between only two providers and 1,200 square
8 feet.
9 Even if consideration is given to the
10 limited 1,200 square feet of space at the
11 property, the traffic associated with my
12 satellite office would certainly cause
13 significant problems. Overflow of traffic and
14 parking would certainly occur on the adjacent
15 streets. And these are residential streets,
16 again, where children play and families gather,
17 and this would cause a significant hazard to the
18 safety of our children, not to mention the
19 congestion, accident risk, and exposure on
21 Lastly, regardless of the use of the space
22 or the frequency of the travelers to the
23 location, backing out onto
24 a driveway is difficult and challenging, and I
25 know that from experience.
Diane M.
Tropia,
64
1 I'm a very safe driver and I took
2 particular care in backing out of my driveway
3 onto
4 sidewalk for biking, running, and enjoying the
5 neighborhood.
6 I always walked out to the sidewalk,
7 assessed traffic, and blew my horn while backing
8 up. What if all the users of this property blow
9 their horn when they're entering and exiting the
10 driveway, what impact will that have on our
11 neighborhood?
12 I can tell you, I am very fearful for the
13 residents that someone else may not use the same
14 caution I have and that one of the children
15 walking home from
16 may not arrive at their destination.
17 I would like to encourage all of you to
18 please vote to oppose this zoning change and
19 consider what we've mentioned and the points
20 we've made.
21 Thank you very much for your time.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
23 Jon Livingston, followed by Stephen Morgan.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you for your time.
Diane M.
Tropia,
65
1 My name is Jon Livingston. I live at 1335
3 I have some documents that I would like to
4 pass around, if possible.
5 And I have a couple of issues that I'd like
6 to talk about and, if possible, just simplify
7 this whole thing.
8 We've heard a lot of details, but if we
9 look at the root cause, the main reason the
10 applicant is wanting to turn their property into
11 a commercial residence, as far as what they've
12 stated, is that the noise is unbearable, it's
13 unlivable.
14 And if you look at the property -- the
15 applicant has lived in the property for
16 12-and-a-half years. And if you look at the
17 property, there's not been one thing in those
18 12-and-a-half years done to reduce the noise
19 going into that house.
20 As you see, there are original 66-year-old
21 single-pane windows. If I had a really big
22 issue with noise, that would be the first thing
23 that I'd go after is putting in soundproof
24 windows. And the technology, as you know, has
25 changed tremendously in the 66 years for
Diane M.
Tropia,
66
1 windows. You can reduce noise through your
2 windows up to 95 percent. And, in fact, you can
3 make the windows more of a sound barrier than
4 the walls of the house.
5 So we looked at 20 -- excuse me -- 104
6 homes, except the applicant, from San Marco
7 Square to Goodby's
8 about traffic and annoying noise, and yet this
9 is the whole reason of why this is happening.
10 And so we can talk about all the details
11 and everything like that, but if this is really
12 the big point, I would think that the applicant
13 would really try to put some new windows in.
14 The second issue -- and I have some more
15 handouts too.
16 If the property is changed over to a
17 commercial facility -- and, as we know, it's
18 pretty much given that traffic will increase.
19 The applicant in -- initially opening up,
20 mentioned that on the east side there has never
21 been any safety issues with traffic. And the
22 sidewalk, a lot of children going to Hendricks
23 School, which is basically two, two-and-a-half
24 blocks from the location that we're talking
25 about, there's never been an issue.
Diane M.
Tropia,
67
1 Well, the west side is very different. The
2 west side has residential homes that have, as
3 you see in the pictures, large fences.
4 And you can see that the bottom picture
5 there, I basically highlighted the traffic going
6 south and the driveway coming out of the
7 property. And if you're riding a bike, if
8 you're running or whatever, the car backing out
9 or coming out frontward is going to have an
10 issue seeing people. That is clearly a safety
11 issue. And if you increase traffic with this
12 property, there's going to be issues.
13 I have a --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir.
15 MR. LIVINGSTON: Yes.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Your time is up.
17 MR. LIVINGSTON: Okay. Thank you. Thanks
18 for your time.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Stephen Morgan, followed by
20 Elizabeth Spradley.
21 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you. Good evening.
23 My name is Stephen Morgan, 1305 Northwood
24 Road,
25 I just want to speak about two key points.
Diane M.
Tropia,
68
1 Item one, many of you have been led to
2 believe that the proposed change to the subject
3 property would have little or no impact to the
4 surrounding area and homeowners. However, if
5 you look at the board there -- and I'll walk
6 over here just one second.
7 That one little the spot there
8 (indicating).
9 If you look at the board there, you can see
10 there's a -- the subject property gouges into
11 this quiet, long-established residential
12 neighborhood and directly intrudes upon five
13 adjacent properties. Such a change is
14 inconsistent with the FLUE goal of, quote,
15 gradual transition of densities and intensities,
16 end quote, as this is a sudden and dramatic
17 change.
18 Further, many have been led to believe that
19 because the other side of Hendricks has existing
20 nonresidential properties that there is no
21 difference when crossing over to the other side
22 of the subject property.
23 You just heard the difference in the
24 privacy fences and the danger that causes, but
25 what has not made -- what has not been made
Diane M.
Tropia,
69
1 plain is that all of the properties on the other
2 side of Hendricks impact only one or two other
3 properties.
4 Back to the subject property, there's not
5 one, there's not two, there's not three, there's
6 not even four, but five properties immediately
7 impacted.
8 Item number two, among other errors, the
9 staff report for the subject property
10 incorrectly stated, quote, the proposed site and
11 parcel adjacent to the subject site to the south
12 are the only two parcels that access Hendricks
13 Avenue on the western side of the segment, end
14 quote.
15 In addition, you heard the applicant's
16 representative tonight suggest only two
17 properties face Hendricks in that Colonial Manor
18 neighborhood along the west side. This is
19 simply not true, as there are four additional
20 lots with direct access and/or existing
21 curb-cuts onto
22 Colonial Manor neighborhood.
23 As such, with the subject property, the
24 adjacent parcel, and the four additional
25 properties, six out of ten, 60 percent of the
Diane M.
Tropia,
70
1 properties within Colonial Manor, along the west
2 side of
3 for rezoning.
4 Armed with the knowledge of the actual
5 count of six houses accessing Hendricks, the
6 staff report statement of, quote, development of
7 the proposed site with professional office use
8 does not set a pattern for other parcels to
9 change to RPI, end quote, is simply not
10 accurate.
11 Thank you for your time, and I urge each --
12 urge each of you to consider the material facts
13 of this matter and adhere to the comprehensive
14 plan that establishes plainly that the proposed
15 change is not permissible.
16 Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
18 Elizabeth Spradley, followed by Chris
19 Shakib.
20 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening, and I will
22 shorten my comments to adhere to your time --
23 shortened time limits.
24 My name is Elizabeth Spradley, and I've
25 owned a home at
Diane M.
Tropia,
71
1 20 years. My home was built in 1938, and it is
2 within 350 feet of
3 I am appealing to you to save our
4 residential community from this proposed spot
5 zoning on
6 commercial zoning that cuts into the heart of
7 Colonial Manor, touching five residential
8 properties, as Stephen just mentioned, has no
9 commercial zoning since the establishment of
10 this neighborhood in the 1940s.
11 I'm asking you to review the facts around
12 the zoning in my very, very quiet neighborhood.
13 As you are well aware, one person has
14 applied to have this quiet neighborhood rezoned
15 for commercial usage. At last month's meeting,
16 we submitted a petition in which 99 percent of
17 the residents of Colonial Manor signed this
18 petition, which it was over 350 signatures that
19 opposed this zoning change.
20 Now, as a private business person, I'm
21 really -- I really am having a hard time
22 logically understanding how one applicant can
23 apply to seek a change to this zoning that
24 interrupts this neighborhood while 350 residents
25 in the community are asking for this to be
Diane M.
Tropia,
72
1 opposed.
2 In addition, this proposed rezoning is
3 contrary to goal 4 of the FLUE of the 2010
4 Comprehensive Plan. And in researching, I found
5 that that goal is to ensure the protection of
6 existing and emerging residential areas from
7 encroachment by intrusive commercial usages.
8 Our neighborhood truly is charming. It's a
9 picture book of the lifestyle that our own
10 Chamber of Commerce promotes to attract industry
11 and jobs here to
12 While my neighborhood has always been very
13 special, I have to tell you, it's become even
14 more special over these last few months.
15 You know, we just realized that this
16 lifestyle could be taken away by individuals
17 that may not understand fully the facts here,
18 and that's what we're asking you to do, is to
19 really read these reports, research these facts,
20 and, I guess, help us as homeowners, families,
21 and part of this community. Please oppose this
22 rezoning.
23 Thank you for your time.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am, I appreciate you
25 being brief and holding to the one minute.
Diane M.
Tropia,
73
1 Chris.
2 MR. SHAKIB: I believe I already had a
3 chance to speak.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
5 Bill Joos has already spoken.
6 Matthew Posgay.
7 (Mr. Posgay approaches the podium.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, sir.
9 MR. POSGAY: Thank you very much.
10 You've been provided with numerous facts as
11 to why this zoning request change is
12 inconsistent with the City's comprehensive
13 plan. There's also been no -- none
14 whatsoever -- legitimate governmental purpose
15 espoused with regard to this zoning change.
16 You've heard the next lot will fall, and
17 what will happen when their representative comes
18 before you and says these 12 conditions don't
19 allow me to do what I want to do on my lot?
20 We'll combine the two lots and we'll start over
21 again.
22 These 12 conditions will then be thrown
23 away and there will be nothing to do to protect
24 our neighborhood.
25 The site plan initially submitted with the
Diane M.
Tropia,
74
1 PUD application was incorrect and wrong that was
2 provided to you in the past. It had nothing on
3 it regarding driveways, nothing about parking,
4 nothing about landscaping. It said it was a
5 one-story stucco building.
6 What are we dealing with now? Why is the
7 City's Planning Department trying to correct the
8 actual PUD application? Is that the City
9 Planning Department's responsibility, to help
10 one applicant to the detriment of a
11 neighborhood? Absolutely not.
12 Now, what was presented to us by the City's
13 Planning Department? A corrected site plan,
14 given to us just a few days ago, which says it's
15 not binding in any way, but I'm going to show
16 you how I can make the PUD site plan work.
17 Why is the City's Planning Department
18 trying to help this one applicant? It makes no
19 sense whatsoever.
20 What's wrong about it? It still says
21 one-story stucco. But is it a two-story or a
22 20-foot building we're dealing with?
23 It also mentions a 12-foot driveway.
24 You've been told it's not actually 12 feet. And
25 also with peak trip hours, 12 feet will not be
Diane M.
Tropia,
75
1 wide enough for the driveway. As the Genesis
2 report shows, you'll need something even double
3 that.
4 We're also not dealing with
5 We're dealing with
6 but endemic of the issues that our Planning
7 Department has done incorrectly.
8 There is no way to build a one-story office
9 building in a viable way and meet all the
10 requirements that are needed.
11 How we will deal with northbound traffic
12 that must make a U-turn in the middle of the
13 road in order to get into that building, that
14 has not been addressed.
15 The City also -- Mr. Kelly indicated the
16 description for the PUD has not changed from the
17 December 22nd date. Am I the only one that
18 remembers March 3rd, the amendments that were
19 made as reflected in your own agenda?
20 Why do these mistakes continue to come from
21 the Planning Department to benefit one
22 applicant? It makes no sense whatsoever.
23 Why is the City bending over backwards for
24 this particular petitioner? Why should the
25 City's comprehensive plan that you and other
Diane M.
Tropia,
76
1 intelligent people have worked so hard on be
2 changed for the benefit of one person, to the
3 detriment of not just hundreds but thousands
4 with neighborhoods -- that live in neighborhoods
5 like us?
6 Now is the time for you-all to deny this
7 request outright. There's no need for further
8 discussions or further conditions. It should be
9 denied -- absolutely denied at this time.
10 At a minimum, you have the power to send it
11 back to the Planning Department, make them
12 analyze this issue correctly, consistent with
13 what they did in 2002 --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir --
15 MR. POSGAY: -- consistent with the true
16 facts, and let them issue a new report that
17 doesn't have all these errors.
18 Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
20 Nancy Urban, followed by Faith McCall.
21 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
23
24 Before I start my statement, I just would
25 like to have a couple of rebuttal comments.
Diane M.
Tropia,
77
1 The applicant has made much of the negative
2 impact of traffic on houses that front
3 Hendricks. I would like to remind you that
4 from 1996, when the applicant purchased this
5 property to use as his home, to 2008 the traffic
6 has actually declined by 20 percent. So I hope
7 you take that in consideration.
8 I would also like to point out that in
9 addition to the applicant's house, there are
10 33 other houses on Hendricks that front the
11 road, have driveways to the road, and are not on
12 corner properties. Apparently the owner is
13 continuously living there.
14 There's a new home under construction on
15 Hendricks facing the road, with a driveway to
16 the road. The owner obviously undeterred by the
17 prospect of traffic.
18 There are countless homes to the south of
20 I hope you take that in consideration.
21 I disagree. This property is not adjacent
22 to the professional offices across the road.
23 This truly residential area is separated by the
24 wide width of Hendricks and a grassy median with
25 three flowering trees. It is not contiguous.
Diane M.
Tropia,
78
1 It does not adjoin. It is separate, distinct,
2 discrete, residential.
3 With regard to my statement, I would like
4 to speak to the issue of due process with regard
5 to the community at-large and this application.
6 I've lived outside the area of mailings,
7 and I knew nothing about this application until
8 March 5th. I was completely in the dark.
9 You have stated that it has been agreed
10 that there were no signs posted. This
11 committee, when it met on March 3rd, could have
12 withdrawn the application or delayed the hearing
13 on that comprehensive plan amendment until the
14 next comprehensive plan amendment period.
15 Instead, you approved the application and sent
16 the amendment on to the City Council.
17 I was just handed this letter from a
18 representative to the council president in which
19 he says, it either needs to be voted on or the
20 applicant will have to start the process over in
21 12 months.
22 I think the City Council, in this instance,
23 was more concerned about not inconveniencing the
24 applicant than in being sure that the community
25 at-large had full notification.
Diane M.
Tropia,
79
1 From September to March there was a vast
2 part of the San Marco community that knew
3 absolutely nothing about this application.
4 Furthermore, I understand that you put many
5 of your notices of public hearing in a very
6 small newspaper with only 5,000 printing per day
7 targeted to the legal community. It's a
8 newspaper I've never heard of and have never
9 read until today.
10 To your credit, the Planning Department did
11 submit a notice of public hearing about this
12 application in February.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am --
14 MS. URBAN: It was printed on the golf page
15 of the sporting news section.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Your time is up.
17 MS. URBAN: To be fundamentally fair to
18 the --
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am.
20 MS. URBAN: Oh, I'm done?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Your time is up.
22 MS. URBAN: I am so sorry.
23 Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Faith McCall.
25 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
80
1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Faith McCall, 875
3 I do not oppose this rezoning because of
4 how it will affect my property values as I live
5 on the west side of
6 very fortunate in that. But as a mom and as a
7 children's minister, children are always at the
8 forefront of my thoughts. Their welfare is of
9 utmost importance to me.
10 There are 40-plus children who live in the
11 immediate area that this rezoning would affect.
12 They can hardly play on their streets as it is.
13 If you add even more traffic, with people trying
14 to find a place to park, circling through to get
15 to their destination, it's going to be
16 impossible.
17 And just as an aside, there is a safety
18 problem. There are safety issues with Hendricks
19
20 issue with children coming over from the east
21 side. There's a safety issue with children on
22 the west because -- we have added an extra
23 crossing guard this year. We now have two
24 there, one in the back, and it's certainly not
25 because we have a budget surplus with which we
Diane M.
Tropia,
81
1 don't know what to do with.
2 Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
4 Leslie Goller.
5 (Ms. Goller approaches the podium.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: And, Ms. Goller, we're going
7 to have to swear you in because you came in
8 after we swore in the group, so if I can get you
9 to raise your right hand.
10 MS. GOLLER: (Complies.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Diane.
12 THE REPORTER: Do you affirm that the
13 testimony you're about to give will be the
14 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
15 truth?
16 MS. GOLLER: Yes, it will.
17 THE REPORTER: Thank you.
18 MS. GOLLER: My name is Leslie Goller, and
19 I live at 2247 Smullian Trail South.
20 I do not live in the affected or to be
21 potentially affected neighborhood, but I feel
22 that this is important enough that I've made
23 this an issue to make sure that I come and speak
24 to you all because it will affect all of
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
82
1 I'm an attorney, and as an attorney the
2 veracity of facts are very important to me. It
3 should be important to you too, and I think it
4 is. But I question, because of just what I've
5 listened to today, what -- the veracity of facts
6 that have been presented to you by the
7 applicant's representatives.
8 One mistake that was said was that there
9 was only one house that also faces
10 Boulevard. You need to know and you've been
11 demonstrated by facts and by what's presented to
12 you that there are actually four houses. That's
13 a big difference.
14 You also were presented by the -- that the
15 speed limit on
16 per hour. That's incorrect. It is not 45 miles
17 per hour at that point, it's 40 miles per hour,
18 and that's a significant difference.
19 The other thing that I -- another
20 inaccuracy that's been presented to you was what
21 was -- came along with the application and what
22 was presented to the Planning Department was the
23 FDOT study, which had nothing to do with this
24 site. It had to do with a totally different
25 site. It was inaccurate. And, therefore, the
Diane M.
Tropia,
83
1 application and the review of it was incomplete
2 at the time.
3 That's grounds enough to automatically deny
4 this application. It didn't have the proper
5 documentation. You know that's a fact because
6 you can see what got substituted. The date of
7 that FDOT study of the transportation, going
8 back and forth, is actually after the
9 application was filed.
10 Exceptions should be exceptions. They
11 should be rarely given and only under
12 extraordinary circumstances. No such
13 extraordinary circumstances has been
14 demonstrated or can be demonstrated by this
15 applicant. You should do the right thing and
16 deny it.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Goller.
18 Charlie Mann.
19 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
20 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, committee members,
21 Charles Mann, 165 Arlington Road, appearing on
22 behalf of Steve Harden.
23 You've had an emotional appeal to you.
24 Certainly whenever you're dealing with people's
25 homes, it becomes very emotional.
Diane M.
Tropia,
84
1 You've had technical appeals to you, and
2 that's very factual and there's a difference in
3 different -- a disagreement in what the facts
4 are, but I'd like to talk to you from a
5 practical standpoint of this piece of property.
6 While this was platted with a -- as a part
7 of Colonial Manor, it is a unique piece of
8 property in Colonial Manor because it's one of
9 the few pieces of property that is solely
10 accessed and orientated towards Hendricks
11 Avenue.
12 I've been a real estate broker in this city
13 for 38 years, approximately. I've watched --
14 grew up in the Southside, and I've watched
17 watched
18 Westside. I've watched
19 What is noted is that when the
20 commercialization takes place, the offices, the
21 people who develop these small business offices
22 have -- take pride. The office building is a
23 representation of their business in the
24 community and it's what makes the impression
25 upon the proposed or suspected [sic] client.
Diane M.
Tropia,
85
1 When the property is allowed to remain
2 residential, the original owner moves out, the
3 property tends to decline.
4 The property is impacted by Hendricks
5 Avenue no matter what anybody wants to say if
6 you've been out there. It's not only noise,
7 it's traffic, it's smell, it's congestion that
8 affect the property also.
9 Whenever you put a property like this on
10 the rental market, you do not rent it at market
11 rate, you rent it at a lesser rate. You do not
12 get as qualified a tenant in it. The
13 maintenance of the property seems to deteriorate
14 as the tenants go on.
15 I've got an office on
16 adjoining property to me is residential. I had
17 three families living in it, and on Friday
18 afternoon, I don't know what they were smoking,
19 but it sure -- we had to close our windows to
20 stay straight. The party would begin about
21 4 o'clock. You know, the noise. That's what
22 happens when the property goes rental. I would
23 have much rather had a commercial office next
24 door to me than the residential structure. It
25 would have been more compatible.
Diane M.
Tropia,
86
1 I think if you talk -- they've talked to
2 you about the future. I think in the long run a
3 rental property here that is not maintained,
4 that does not have quality tenants in it will
5 affect the value of the properties surrounding
6 it more so and be more intrusive to their
7 lifestyle than a residential -- or a commercial
8 office that is regulated as to the hours of
9 operation and the uses.
10 They've talked about safety. I suppose the
11 safety to the children on the west side of
13 safety to the children on the east -- on the
14 east side. The east side children, you know,
15 their safety is valuable too. Those buildings,
16 those offices all face
17 property does.
18 I've not heard of a safety issue over there
19 regarding the children going to school. They
20 cross at the street, their parents watch them.
21 I think just turning your kids loose to play in
22 the street and expecting the society to watch
23 them for you is assuming an awful lot on a
24 parent's part. We've got to guard our children.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mann.
Diane M.
Tropia,
87
1 MR. MANN: Yes, sir.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Your three minutes is up.
3 MR. MANN: Thank you very much.
4 I would advise you to vote this as a
5 professional office.
6 Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you have a specific
8 question of Mr. Mann?
9 MR. WEBB: Yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mann.
11 MR. WEBB: Mr. Mann, how are you this
12 afternoon?
13 MR. MANN: Fine, Mr. Webb.
14 MR. WEBB: You seem to deem it inevitable
15 that this property would, in fact, go commercial
16 of some form. What of the testimony that we
17 heard before, that, in fact, the trend is not
18 towards increasing commercial but is back
19 towards increasing residential?
20 MR. MANN: I see nothing that shows that
21 it's towards increasing residential.
22 When you -- I went and rode the
23 neighborhood. There was no impact -- negative
24 impact that I could see from the offices on the
25 east side of
Diane M.
Tropia,
88
1 neighborhoods behind them, affecting property
2 values or anything else.
3 As far as this going residential, I think
4 if it goes residential and becomes rental or
5 stays residential and becomes rental, it will
6 decrease the value of the surrounding properties
7 and negate the future development of -- the
8 future of these neighborhoods.
9 MR. WEBB: I would tend to agree with that,
10 but again, my question is just that, what --
11 again, your trend analysis with regard to
12 increasing commercial development is anecdotal
13 based on your review and experience?
14 MR. MANN: Yes, sir, that is correct.
15 MR. WEBB: Okay. Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
17 All right. We are done with the public
18 comment part of this. I didn't cut anybody off
19 at one minute. Needless to say, everybody went
20 past one minute. Actually, four or five of you
21 went past three minutes, and that's when I came
22 to cut you off, but I think I was fair as far as
23 the public comments.
24 And now, Mr. Harden, you've got five
25 minutes to rebut, and then we're done.
Diane M.
Tropia,
89
1 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
2 MR. HARDEN: Okay. I'll try to keep it
3 within that five minutes.
4 Let me start with the first issue that begs
5 the question. The orientation of this house is
6 not to a quiet neighborhood. The orientation of
7 this house fronts on -- at the opponent's
8 suggestion, a 25,000-trip-a-day roadway.
9 The orientation of this house is to
10 everything that's along the east side of
12 house is not a quiet neighborhood. It is, in
13 fact, an office use.
14 The safety issue, I think, is -- to use
15 Mr. Posgay's term, a red herring. Again, the
16 school board representative said that there was
17 not a safety issue. They haven't had one there
18 at
19 all due respect, there's a mile of offices on
20 the east side of the road. Those same -- the
21 same people -- the people that live behind
22 those, their children walk to
23 Day School -- I mean,
24 Elementary School.
25 Next to
Diane M. Tropia,
90
1 on the north, is a restaurant. Next to that
2 restaurant is a retail strip. Those pieces of
3 property have families living behind them, and
4 they also walk to
5 School.
6 In due respect to Mr. Joos, he's
7 incorrect. There are, in fact, strips along the
8 west side that are in the RPI and CRO district
9 already. They're colored on the map, and his
10 suggestion is inconsistent -- is incorrect.
11 The question is whether or not there's
12 consistency with the comp plan apparently by the
13 opposition.
14 The Department of Community Affairs
15 reviewed this after the City Council unanimously
16 transmitted it for their review. They sent a
17 review of over a dozen agencies, and those dozen
18 agencies all found it consistent with the
19 comprehensive plan.
20 Your Planning Department has looked at it
21 on three occasions and on each time have found
22 it consistent with the comprehensive plan.
23 The suggestion that we're setting a
24 precedent is incorrect. There's the Metro
25 Diner, there's Beard's Jewelry, there's a travel
Diane M.
Tropia,
91
1 agency. All of those uses set the precedent for
2 uses that face along
3 houses on the opposite side of the road.
4 I ask you to weigh Genesis' opinion versus
5 the opinion of your Planning Department, who
6 doesn't have a dog in the hunt; the opinion of
7 the Department of Community Affairs, which has
8 found it consistent, who has no reason to say
9 differently; and Mr. Herzberg's analysis of the
10 Genesis report.
11 The FDOT report was part of -- the FDOT
12 review was part of the DCA review. The FDOT did
13 find -- they're one of a dozen agencies, and
14 they found it consistent. The fact of the
15 matter is this development would cause two p.m.
16 peak-hour trips a day.
17 The RPI, I guess, is in place. There's
18 been a couple of suggestions to oppose the land
19 use, and I don't, I guess, need to explain that,
20 but just for the record, the RPI has been
21 approved by the council. It was adopted by the
22 council, transmitted to DCA. They recommended
23 approval of it in their ORC. The RPI is in
24 place on the site.
25 In all due respect, the suggestion that
Diane M.
Tropia,
92
1 there are people fearful for the safety of
2 children as a result of this I think is an
3 unfair argument in light of all of the
4 development, and you look at the entire
5 neighborhood on the site.
6 The conditions are important. There is a
7 buffered effect from the use of this property to
8 any residential use that it touches. The house
9 immediately to the south, of course, faces on
10 Hendricks. You've seen the situation of that
11 house. The house immediately to the north has
12 barricaded itself off from both
13 and the -- and the subject house with an 8-foot
14 fence, which as -- the Planning Department says
15 it's an illegal fence at that location. It
16 either has to be 25 feet -- it has to be 25 feet
17 back or 4 feet lower, but in any event, they
18 barricaded themselves off.
19 The requirements of the PUD require a
20 landscape buffer on the rear of the property.
21 It requires a visual barrier along any uses.
22 The Planning Commission added on conditions that
23 require any lighting in the back be ground
24 lighting and they be nonintrusive. The
25 limitation of hours is from -- from 7:00 -- it
Diane M.
Tropia,
93
1 stops at 7 p.m.
2 So the conditions are important because
3 what they do is make a gradual transition of
4 use. You have along Hendricks, on the opposite
5 side, a development -- an office development.
6 This property faces a 25,000-trip-a-day arterial
7 road, and then you have a buffer effect by the
8 conditions that are on this site.
9 Again, it's been considered on numerous
10 occasions by this council, and every -- I am not
11 the only person, as they have suggested, who has
12 requested approval. The Planning Department
13 has, the Planning Commission on three occasions,
14 the Department of Community Affairs, a multitude
15 of State agencies have all found it consistent
16 and recommended approval of this use.
17 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Harden.
19 Ms. Eller.
20 MS. ELLER: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Where are we?
22 MS. ELLER: That concludes the public
23 hearing portion. You can close the formal
24 public hearing, and then you have -- the council
25 members can ask additional information and ask
Diane M.
Tropia,
94
1 questions of any of the speakers.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Before I go to the council
3 members -- and my queue here is lighting up --
4 let's get on the record the current amendments
5 that we have.
6 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Point of order,
7 Mr. Chairman.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir.
9 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Is there going to be an
10 opportunity for the applicant and affected
11 parties to cross-examine?
12 I understand your point earlier, but -- and
13 I reviewed the rules. It says that opportunity
14 should be provided. It doesn't look -- it
15 doesn't appear to me to be --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't plan on providing
17 it.
18 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I'm sorry?
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I do not plan on providing
20 it.
21 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Wouldn't that be in
22 conflict with the council rules?
23 MS. ELLER: The council rules -- and I'll
24 state them -- say that witnesses "may" be
25 cross-examined. It does not say "shall" be
Diane M.
Tropia,
95
1 cross-examined.
2 I will point out, though, that in council
3 rules, under the formal quasi-judicial hearings,
4 any council member can raise cross-examination
5 and raise questions to the witnesses during any
6 part of the -- point of the deliberation.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crescimbeni.
8 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Planning Department.
10 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
11 Through the Chair and to the committee,
12 application for rezoning 2009-115 was approved
13 by the Planning Commission subject to the
14 11 conditions in the staff report, in your book.
15 Condition 1, "The development shall be
16 subject to the original legal description dated
17 December 22nd, 2008."
18 Condition 2, "The development shall be
19 subject to the revised written description dated
20 March 3rd, 2009."
21 Condition 3, "The development shall be
22 subject to the original site plan dated December
23 22nd, 2006."
24 Condition 4, "The development shall be
25 subject to the review and approval of the
Diane M.
Tropia,
96
1 Development Services Division pursuant to the
2 memorandum dated January 29th, 2009, and the
3 Transportation Planning section memorandum dated
4 February 9th, 2009, or as otherwise approved by
5 the Planning and Development Department."
6 In that condition 4, the Department is
7 striking the reference to the DOT memorandum
8 dated April 14th. We find there's substantial
9 flaws in that memorandum and we're prepared to
10 answer any questions about it.
11 Condition 5, "Parking will be provided
12 behind the building for uses other than a
13 single-family use."
14 Condition 6, "The architectural style shall
15 be substantially similar to the surrounding
16 residential development, subject to the review
17 and approval of the Planning and Development
18 Department at the time of verification of
19 substantial compliance."
20 Condition 7, "A clinic use shall be
21 prohibited."
22 Condition 8, "The operating hours shall be
23 from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m."
24 Condition 9, "Pole lighting shall be
25 prohibited and lighting shall be limited to path
Diane M.
Tropia,
97
1 lighting, subject to review and approval of the
2 Planning and Development Department."
3 Condition 10, "The maximum building height
4 shall be limited to 20 feet."
5 Condition 11, "Refuse cans shall be used
6 unless otherwise approved by Planning and
7 Development."
8 Those are the conditions.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller.
10 MS. ELLER: Thank you.
11 And for the committee's consideration, if
12 the amendment could also include a directive to
13 OGC to prepare the final order as part of the
14 amendments. Since you did have a formal public
15 hearing, Rule 6.31 of the council rules requires
16 us to write up a final order like we do for
17 appeals. So that would be my request to the
18 committee, to consider that as part of any
19 amendment.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We heard what the
21 amendments are on the floor. Can I get someone
22 to move the amendment?
23 MR. JOOST: Move the amendments.
24 MR. HOLT: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
Diane M.
Tropia,
98
1 and seconded.
2 We will start with Mr. Shad since this is
3 his district. We'll go to the committee
4 members, we'll go to visiting council members,
5 and then we'll take anybody else for the second
6 time.
7 Mr. Shad.
8 MR. SHAD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9 As you can see, this is a very important
10 application to many members of the community
11 that I represent, and I wanted to reiterate to
12 the committee that I think this should be looked
13 at freshly tonight in that -- the fact that we
14 passed out the land use amendment last month.
15 Remember we referred this back to committee.
16 That was passed out because of the requirement
17 of time in that -- in a letter I drafted to the
18 council president that -- should this body and
19 then the full council deny this rezoning, that I
20 would intend to reverse that land use. So, you
21 know, everything is in front of you tonight is
22 what I'm trying to say.
23 And specifically I wanted to make it clear
24 that my support of the land use amendment last
25 month should not act as guidance towards you for
Diane M.
Tropia,
99
1 my support of the rezoning come next Tuesday.
2 You know, fortunately for me, I have another
3 week to gather information on this rezoning.
4 And, you know, not a day hasn't gone by and
5 doesn't go by that I don't talk with neighbors
6 and meet with neighbors.
7 And, you know, this issue, as I live
8 nearby, has been pretty personal and pretty
9 tough, and I continue to struggle with it. And
10 I'll be real honest with you, the debate of this
11 committee and the members on it is important to
12 me, and I wanted to make sure that that was all
13 very clear.
14 Now, should you move forward with this
15 application -- and I -- I make these amendments
16 not insinuating you should go forward, but just
17 if you did go forward, there are two more
18 important amendments, I think, that would need
19 to be made, and these were what I took from the
20 Genesis report.
21 I think it's clear after reading the
22 Genesis report that the medical and dental use
23 is not appropriate for that property. And then,
24 in addition, I think we need to verify --
25 although the planning director stated on the
Diane M. Tropia,
100
1 record that it would only be a single story,
2 let's make that an amendment as well.
3 So those are two -- should this body decide
4 to go forward, I would ask you to incorporate
5 those amendments, and I wish you well in your
6 deliberations.
7 Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Shad.
9 First person on here is Mr. Joost.
10 MR. JOOST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11 And, Mr. Shad, you almost took the words
12 out of my mouth.
13 Specifically what I want to know in regards
14 to the existing amendments -- either Planning or
15 Legal can take it -- is, do the existing
16 amendments -- I know it says it limits the
17 height restriction to 20 feet, et cetera. And
18 one of the assertions, I believe, by the
19 opposition was that the house could actually be
20 expanded beyond the 1,250 square feet. Is that
21 correct or is it -- or do these amendments or
22 conditions, if you will, limit the house to
23 basically the structure as is today?
24 MR. KELLY: The adopted -- or the site plan
25 that's proposed is binding. Okay? So you've
Diane M.
Tropia,
101
1 got a one-story indicated on the site plan
2 footprint of a single-family dwelling. Any
3 expansion -- any expansion of that use in terms
4 of square footage would trigger a PUD to PUD
5 rezoning, so they cannot expand the use beyond
6 what's currently identified on the survey.
7 MR. JOOST: Unless a subsequent council
8 approves it; is that --
9 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
10 It would involve a whole 'nother series of
11 public hearings.
12 MR. JOOST: Okay. Then my second question
13 regards the medical and dental office uses. Is
14 that -- within the current conditions, is that
15 use allowed?
16 MR. KELLY: Currently, it's still proposed
17 in the written description, yes.
18 MR. JOOST: Okay. I would like to move
19 that as an amendment, to disallow the use of
20 medical and dental office uses.
21 MR. WEBB: Second.
22 MR. JOOST: Because I noticed the -- one of
23 the amendments said clinic use, and I didn't
24 know if that was broad enough to cover medical
25 and dental.
Diane M.
Tropia,
102
1 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess out of simplicity,
2 would you like to make the amendment to include
3 those things that Mr. Shad just added?
4 MR. JOOST: Yes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. It's been moved and
6 seconded. That's one of the amendments before
7 us.
8 MR. JOOST: I'm done.
9 Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Holt.
11 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12 Planning --
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt, hold on a second.
14 We can vote on all the amendments now and
15 then add more later?
16 MR. WEBB: (Inaudible.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I just wanted to incorporate
18 it all at once.
19 MR. WEBB: (Inaudible.)
20 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
21 Through the Chair to Planning --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, Mr. Holt. One
23 more time.
24 Ms. Eller, did you get those amendments
25 that Mr. Shad had put forth?
Diane M. Tropia,
103
1 MS. ELLER: Yes. My understanding is the
2 amendments as read by Planning and myself so
3 far, and then as Councilmember Shad had read
4 into the record, we would prohibit medical and
5 dental uses, clinic uses already proposed to be
6 prohibited. And then while we do have the
7 limitation that the maximum building height
8 would be limited to 20 feet, we would add the
9 additional written words that it would be single
10 story.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
12 Sorry, Mr. Holt.
13 MR. HOLT: That's all right.
14 Sean or John, whoever can answer these
15 questions. You guys ran through that pretty
16 quickly and I missed some of it and want to make
17 sure I understand all those conditions.
18 Can you give me an idea of what would fall
19 under the professional or business offices and
20 what wouldn't?
21 MR. KELLY: Professional office would
22 involve real estate agents, attorneys,
23 accounting -- accountants, lawyers, those -- I
24 mean, essentially those kinds of business
25 professional offices.
Diane M.
Tropia,
104
1 MR. HOLT: Insurance, real estate --
2 MR. KELLY: Correct.
3 MR. HOLT: -- things like that? Okay.
4 Can you give me an idea of what you would
5 be looking for in your review of a substantial
6 compliance on that?
7 You say "similar to the others," how would
8 you guys go about deciding whether something --
9 if they did decide to bulldoze the current
10 structure and build something else, what would
11 you guys be looking for?
12 MR. KELLY: Essentially, they would be
13 limited to the existing setbacks of the
14 single-family dwelling -- they'd have to build
15 on the same footprint a one-story building that
16 was residential in character.
17 MR. HOLT: Okay. So residential in
18 character is what you'd be looking for?
19 MR. KELLY: Absolutely.
20 MR. HOLT: Something that had the same
21 architecture as the surrounding properties?
22 MR. KELLY: (Nods head.)
23 MR. HOLT: Would you be looking for similar
24 exterior building materials?
25 I know that -- just right off the top of my
Diane M.
Tropia,
105
1 head, Carlucci's office, I believe, is red brick
2 and so is the real estate agent and I believe
3 most of the homes along there are either brick
4 or stucco exterior. Would that be something
5 that you'd be looking for?
6 MR. KELLY: Correct. It would have to be
7 similar to the surrounding properties.
8 MR. HOLT: Okay. And based on the site
9 plan and your requirements, what is your minimum
10 from the -- from the building to the sidewalk,
11 minimum space?
12 MR. KELLY: The setback requirements under
13 the existing zoning is a 20-foot setback
14 requirement. I believe the house is probably a
15 little bit further back. I think it's 30 feet
16 back.
17 MR. HOLT: Right.
18 MR. KELLY: So if they were to reduce --
19 again, reduce that dimension or that setback
20 from the site plan, they would be looking at a
21 change to the PUD --
22 MR. HOLT: Right. So they couldn't go
23 20 feet because they -- they're 30 feet now, and
24 if they were to change from the current
25 footprint, then they would be out of compliance,
Diane M.
Tropia,
106
1 right?
2 MR. KELLY: They would be -- so long as it
3 was in the written description -- whatever the
4 written description -- if there's a -- I believe
5 20 feet right now is the current requirement
6 under the zoning district. Their setback is
7 30 feet.
8 If they did come back, there would be, you
9 know, potentially some ability, either through a
10 minor modification -- provided it's not a
11 substantial deviation, but we wouldn't allow
12 them to pull the building up to the street, for
13 instance. So it would have to be within
14 essentially that same footprint.
15 MR. HOLT: Right, but they could come back
16 later and go outside of that current footprint
17 as long as they don't go any closer than 20 feet
18 with a minor modification?
19 MR. CROFTS: (Nods head.)
20 MR. HOLT: That's correct?
21 MR. CROFTS: (Nods head.)
22 MR. HOLT: Okay. I noticed Mr. Crofts
23 nodding his head.
24 Okay. And can you run over one more time
25 the landscaping requirements and the -- is there
Diane M.
Tropia,
107
1 a solid fence barrier requirement, not just a
2 chain-link fence?
3 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
4 Because of the uncomplementary buffer,
5 boundary basically between these uses -- you
6 have an office use adjacent to a residential
7 use. There is -- in Part 12 of the zoning code,
8 you have a 10-foot uncomplementary land use
9 buffer. Within that buffer, you're required to
10 have an 8-foot-high, 85 percent opaque visual
11 screen consisting of landscaping and fencing
12 materials. You have tree planting requirements
13 for every 25 linear feet of that uncomplementary
14 boundary adjacent to those residential uses, so
15 they will have to provide that landscaping in
16 accordance, and that's what we'll be looking for
17 at the time of PUD verification.
18 MR. HOLT: Okay. But there's no
19 specifics as to what type of fence other than
20 85 percent --
21 MR. KELLY: The -- well, the conventional
22 code doesn't mandate a fence, for instance, the
23 opacity. So it could be met with an earthen
24 berm, vegetation. In all likelihood -- there's
25 a wood fence there now that I believe is about
Diane M.
Tropia,
108
1 six feet. They would either have to add
2 additional vegetation to meet that opacity
3 requirement or increase the height of the fence.
4 MR. HOLT: Okay. That's all I have.
5 Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Holt.
7 Mr. Redman.
8 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9 There seemed to be some discrepancy in the
10 two parties as to how many houses there were
11 that actually face --
12 MR. SHAD: (Inaudible.)
13 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
14 MR. SHAD: Mr. Chairman, may I answer
15 that?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
17 MR. SHAD: I can answer that. I know it's
18 pretty clear.
19 I think the two discrepancies -- I think
20 both sides kind of had it wrong. I think
21 Mr. Herzberg said two and I think the opposition
22 said six.
23 You know, it's four, but I understand --
24 there's four properties that both have a
25 curb-cut and only touch Hendricks. There are
Diane M.
Tropia,
109
1 two additional properties that the -- the
2 opposition has added on this handout here
3 (indicating) that have a curb-cut on Hendricks
4 but also touch a side street.
5 I think -- so when I think of it, I think
6 of four properties that have the exact same
7 characteristics of that lot, curb-cut on
8 Hendricks and no abutting any side streets.
9 It seems that there are two other
10 properties that have a curb-cut on Hendricks,
11 but they touch a side street. I think that's
12 the difference between those two. I don't know
13 if that makes it any clearer, but I think that's
14 where they're at.
15 MR. REDMAN: Yes. I thought that probably
16 was the case. Coming in from the side of the
17 houses, they were assuming those were frontage.
18 Another question that I'd like to ask all
19 those who got up to speak tonight in opposition,
20 would you live in this house on Hendricks
21 Avenue, facing
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman, do you actually
23 want to ask all those people that spoke in
24 opposition?
25 MR. REDMAN: I want a show of hands of the
Diane M.
Tropia,
110
1 ones that would live in that house.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You just want them to
3 stand up.
4 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Indicating.)
5 MR. REDMAN: This is fine. They're showing
6 their --
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: If we say no, can we tell
8 the reasons why?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, no. Thank you.
10 MR. REDMAN: No.
11 Thank you.
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Is that a rhetorical
13 question?
14 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Inaudible discussion.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: The public hearing is
16 finished. Thank you very much.
17 Mr. Webb.
18 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 This is to the Planning Department. There
20 was some discussion of improper documentation
21 regarding an FDOT report. Can you speak to
22 that?
23 MR. KELLY: Certainly.
24 The memorandum we received from the
25 Department of Transportation on April 14th --
Diane M. Tropia,
111
1 you'll see in that memorandum, it basically
2 references the square footage and it's
3 completely off base. They're talking about over
4 6,000 -- almost 6,100-square-foot office
5 building on that property.
6 MR. WEBB: Who was, the FDOT?
7 MR. KELLY: FDOT. And that's how they did
8 their trip analysis and that's where the
9 87 trips come from, p.m. peak hour trips, is
10 based on a 6,100-square-foot office.
11 MR. WEBB: And what was the date of that
12 report?
13 MR. KELLY: That was April 14th.
14 MR. WEBB: When was the application filed?
15 MR. KELLY: Back in February -- before
16 February. August of last year.
17 MR. WEBB: When did -- through the Chair,
18 did the FDOT provide an updated or a corrected
19 report based on the proper project plan?
20 MR. KELLY: We have not received one.
21 We routed it to them that one time, and
22 that was the comments we received.
23 MR. WEBB: Is that necessary for proper
24 evaluation of the application?
25 MR. KELLY: Well, again, I mean, this was
Diane M.
Tropia,
112
1 routed as part of the transmittal and the review
2 through DCA, as Mr. Harden indicated, that DOT
3 is a commenting agency on the land use and the
4 net change of the land use category as well,
5 so -- they did not provide any comments in the
6 transmittal or adoption round of the land use,
7 so . . .
8 MR. WEBB: Is that analysis a part -- is
9 that analysis a necessary part of your vetting
10 process at the Planning Department?
11 MR. KELLY: It is to some extent.
12 I mean, there is an existing driveway cut
13 there for their use.
14 We do have essentially in-house
15 Transportation Planning staff that does the same
16 analysis, and their analysis was the 14 ADTs,
17 which is consistent with the Genesis study, for
18 a professional office building of that size.
19 So we would defer to our own Transportation
20 Planning memo and our Development Services
21 Division that reviews as well for ten-set and
22 civil plan review.
23 MR. WEBB: What about -- again, through the
24 Chair to Planning. What about this allegation
25 with respect to the decline in the traffic count
Diane M.
Tropia,
113
1 since Mr. Harden purchased this property some
2 years back? What is the basis -- is that
3 accurate? It seems --
4 MR. KELLY: It is accurate.
5 I met with our Transportation folks, and
6 probably about over the last four years it's
7 probably steadily declined from a peak of about
8 32-, 33,000 average daily trips down to --
9 currently it's about 27,500, this link of
10 Hendricks, link number 5,
12 It's currently about -- got 800 trips
13 available on that segment, so there's plenty of
14 capacity. It's operating at a level of
15 service B.
16 MR. WEBB: What do you attribute that
17 decline in counts? It seems anti -- it seems --
18 use a word I've heard recently,
19 counterintuitive. What do you attribute that
20 to?
21 MR. KELLY: It could be a lot of different
22 things. I think there's, you know, not just one
23 kind of simplistic answer to that. I think it's
24 multiple things. It's probably the creation, in
25 some respects, of additional commercial areas
Diane M.
Tropia,
114
1 where people don't have to drive as far. You
2 see a lot of people -- as Mr. Herzberg
3 indicated, you know, they're not driving as much
4 anymore, mass transit, those peak hour demands,
5 and so it's --
6 MR. WEBB: All right. One last question to
7 legal.
8 Shannon, just for the record, could you
9 define for me "spot zoning"?
10 MS. ELLER: Spot zoning, in the case law
11 that's come before, is a zoning that is
12 inconsistent with the surrounding uses and it's
13 heavily fact-specific and dependent upon the
14 facts that are entered into the record --
15 MR. WEBB: All right. So it's fact
16 specific, then. I mean, there's no hard and
17 fast rule --
18 MS. ELLER: Correct.
19 MR. WEBB: -- determining, you know, what
20 the criteria -- and a relevant comparison area
21 of neighborhoods and things of that nature?
22 MS. ELLER: I concur with that statement.
23 MR. WEBB: All right. Fair enough.
24 Thank you. That's all I have.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown.
Diane M. Tropia,
115
1 MR. BROWN: Through the chair to Planning,
2 regarding the comprehensive plan, have we, in
3 the past, historically made changes to
4 comprehensive plans?
5 MR. KELLY: Yeah. I mean, this is --
6 MR. BROWN: Common practice?
7 MR. KELLY: Absolutely.
8 You know, it's a fluid document. It
9 changes as -- you know, as time goes on and, you
10 know, things are realized. And, you know,
11 they're always -- it's making changes, hopefully
12 for the better. And, generally, yes, it's an
13 active, fluid document.
14 MR. BROWN: Okay. My other question,
15 through the Chair to Planning, have we conducted
16 a study to determine the value of the homes? Is
17 there a loss of value in the homes where the
18 zoning was changed?
19 MR. CROFTS: Typically, through the Chair
20 to Mr. Brown -- as you look at our report, it's
21 typically not one of the criteria that we look
22 at. And, typically, these things are more or
23 less neighborhood or site specific and generally
24 located -- we don't get into that level of
25 detail in looking at property values, assessment
Diane M.
Tropia,
116
1 of what a particular use -- what a particular
2 project or proposed use might have on property
3 values in and around that particular proposal.
4 MR. BROWN: Okay. Because it seems to me
5 that the value of folks' homes now is a huge
6 issue, and I personally would hate to see anyone
7 start to lose value in the home. So if it's not
8 a precedence or if it's not something that we
9 normally do, I think that we should definitely
10 include that in the process because what I'm
11 hearing tonight, that's one of the major
12 concerns.
13 And speaking of processes, through the
14 Chair to Planning, how do you gauge the process
15 in terms of our enforcement -- planning,
16 enforcement of it, to make sure that -- because
17 that's really all that taxpayers, we have to
18 depend on, is the process to make sure that it's
19 enforced properly.
20 Do you feel that we've done everything
21 within our -- within your powers of planning to
22 make sure that we didn't violate any particular
23 steps in the process?
24 MR. KELLY: I would -- yes.
25 I mean, I would defer to OGC. This has
Diane M.
Tropia,
117
1 been procedurally processed and noticed on
2 multiple times. As indicated, this is the 13th
3 public hearing that we've had for this
4 application.
5 There was a question, obviously, as to
6 whether or not the signs were posted on the
7 original filing and noticing. And I guess the
8 signs were not posted, according to the staff
9 report, but that issue was corrected and we
10 renoticed it properly and it's been advertised,
11 so it's been properly noticed.
12 MR. BROWN: No other questions.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Diane, I know you're about
14 to --
15 MS. ELLER: Mr. Chairman, to the
16 councilmember. Regarding the enforcement, I
17 just wanted to point out that after any
18 application for rezoning is approved, if it is a
19 PUD, it goes to the Planning Department for
20 verification.
21 And you'll recall that we changed the rules
22 a few years back, where those verifications are
23 routed to the district council members so that
24 way they can confirm that what's coming through
25 for ten-set is, in fact, consistent. That came
Diane M.
Tropia,
118
1 out of a site plan that Councilmember Graham had
2 in his district.
3 So just on the -- I thought your question
4 was regarding the enforcement of the PUD
5 restrictions on the backside.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
7 Diane, I know you're at your two-hour
8 mark. We've got two other council members that
9 want to comment. Can you hold on for about
10 another 15 minutes so we're done?
11 THE REPORT: Sure. No problem.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crescimbeni.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 Through the Chair. I guess I'm curious for
15 the record whether the applicant or any of his
16 expert witnesses or the affected parties and the
17 opponents wanted to cross-examine.
18 I've reread this rule, and with all due
19 respect to the General Counsel, I don't think we
20 really have a choice in providing that, so --
21 If we're going to deny them, I just wanted
22 to know on the record whether they wanted the
23 opportunity or not because I think that's
24 important.
25 Can we get them to come up to the podium?
Diane M.
Tropia,
119
1 I mean, I see heads shaking, but I don't think
2 the court reporter can acknowledge a head shake.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: What did you want to know?
4 Did you want to know if people exist or you want
5 to know specifically who --
6 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I want to know if any of
7 the presenters -- if the applicant or any of his
8 expert witnesses or any of the opponents or
9 affected parties that participated in the
10 opening periods wanted to cross-examine.
11 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Sir, did you want to
13 cross-examine?
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. I would have with
15 appropriate notice --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, yes or no?
17 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
19 Mr. Crescimbeni.
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Is there anybody else?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Was there anybody else from
22 your side that wanted to cross-examine?
23 MR. POSGAY: (Indicating.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, come to the mic.
25 (Mr. Posgay approaches the podium.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
120
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes or no?
2 MR. POSGAY: Do I need to give you my name
3 and address again?
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Please, sir.
5 MR. POSGAY: Matthew Posgay, 1348
6 Road, and my business address, 136 East Bay
7 Street. You can have both of them again.
8 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir.
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: On behalf of Colonial
11 Manor --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you weren't part of the
13 original group that came forward, were you?
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, I was.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: You weren't listening to
17 me?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: I heard Mr. Shad down here
19 say you weren't part of it, so . . .
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Sir, I'm sorry --
22 Diane, did you get the name and address?
23 THE REPORTER: No.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Jon
Diane M.
Tropia,
121
1
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Come on, sir. You might as
3 well -- Chris, did you want to --
4 MR. SHAKIB: Yeah. On the record --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Come to the mic, sir.
6 (Mr. Shakib approaches the podium.)
7 MR. SHAKIB: Chris Shakib, 1422
8 Road.
9 And, yes, that was part of our discussion
10 this afternoon when we talked about it.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
12 Mr. Harden's side, did you guys want to
13 have the ability to cross-examine?
14 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
15 MR. HARDEN: I disagree with
16 Mr. Crescimbeni's interpretation. I agree with
17 the General Counsel's interpretation, so no.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
19 Mr. Crescimbeni, you have the mic.
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 I do have some questions, and I would like
22 to go back to the Planning Department. I'm a
23 little bit fuzzy on the number of houses. I
24 heard two, I heard four, I heard six.
25 From the Planning Department -- through the
Diane M.
Tropia,
122
1 Chair to the Planning Department, how many
2 houses have addresses in this area on Hendricks
3 Avenue?
4 MR. KELLY: Through the chair to
5 Councilmember Crescimbeni, my understanding is
6 from the elementary school south to the Gate gas
7 station that there are four houses that have
8 addresses off of
9 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you.
10 Again, through the Chair to the Planning
11 Department, I'm a little fuzzy on the buffer
12 now. The incompatible land use categories
13 require an 8-foot-high visual screen; is that
14 what I heard you say?
15 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And it requires a 10-foot
17 what specifically?
18 MR. KELLY: A 10-foot-wide landscaped area.
19 MR. CRESCIMBENI: So can you provide me
20 with a little bit more of a description of what
21 a 10-foot-wide landscaped area is supposed to
22 be?
23 I heard you talk about planting a tree, but
24 I'm not -- I have a lot of experience with
25 trees, and I don't think we have any that reach
Diane M.
Tropia,
123
1 the diameter of ten feet, so we're talking about
2 a ten-foot, one-foot, two-inch tree?
3 MR. KELLY: Well, the buffer is just the
4 width of the greenspace between the fence and
5 the proposed use, of the office use, and any
6 kind of portion of the parking lot would
7 constitute that use. So we're looking at a
8 greenspace that would include tree plantings,
9 hedge material, landscaping to meet an opacity
10 requirement that's in the code, and that's an
11 85 percent opacity, 8-foot-high visual screen.
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: So a parking lot would be
13 considered as part of the 10-foot-wide visual
14 buffer?
15 MR. KELLY: No.
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: This site plan -- is this
17 the current site plan? Because I've got so many
18 things that have been passed out, I -- I'm
19 getting --
20 MR. KELLY: No, that is not the current
21 site plan. The current site plan is the bare
22 bones survey of the property.
23 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Isn't it customary
24 for someone to submit a site plan that shows
25 parking areas, et cetera?
Diane M.
Tropia,
124
1 MR. KELLY: Again, when the Department
2 reviewed this at the intake stage, we looked at
3 the written description, we looked at the survey
4 of the property, we did an analysis based on
5 that.
6 Our conditions for approval, when we went
7 through the review process, requiring parking in
8 the back, it became evident that, from the
9 Department's standpoint, we needed to find out
10 whether or not this was going to work. And, in
11 our review, we found that maintaining the
12 residential character and requiring the parking
13 in the back is something that can be
14 accomplished and meet those conditions.
15 The intake and requirements under the PUD
16 ordinance in our zoning code leaves that
17 discretion entirely up to the Planning
18 Department on each application. It's up to our
19 review and discretion and to -- whether or
20 not -- and we were confident with the language
21 that was in the written description, and based
22 on our analysis, after reviewing the survey,
23 that it could accommodate the zoning code and
24 the intent of all of that landscaping and
25 parking.
Diane M.
Tropia,
125
1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Through the Chair
2 to Mr. Kelly, the bare bones site that you have,
3 what is the distance between the southern end of
4 the home and the property line -- the southern
5 property line and the north side of the home and
6 the northern property line?
7 MR. KELLY: The southern property line from
8 the existing dwelling is 11.5 feet, and from the
9 dwelling to the northern property line is
10 approximately 13 to 14 feet.
11 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Approximately 13 to
12 14 feet?
13 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
14 There's at least -- in scaling it -- you
15 know, it is a scalable site plan, so that is
16 something that we did. So I would say, at a
17 minimum, it's about 13-and-a-half feet.
18 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Now, 13-and-a-half-foot
19 distance, is that where the 12-foot driveway
20 is?
21 MR. KELLY: That's the 12-foot driveway and
22 the additional landscape material, I guess, to
23 the north of that -- that little, narrow strip.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: So we can put the 10-foot
25 buffer on top of a 12-foot driveway --
Diane M.
Tropia,
126
1 MR. KELLY: No. That's correct, and that's
2 kind of going back to our original analysis and
3 the conditions that we recommended for
4 approval.
5 The applicant could otherwise comply with
6 the parking in the front yard. We thought it
7 more important to maintain the residential
8 character because of the scale -- the limited
9 scale of this use, a 1,250-square-foot office
10 building, very similar to what you see in a lot
11 of the older historic neighborhoods that have
12 been converted to single-family uses. They use
13 a single-lane driveway, 8, sometimes 9, 10 feet
14 in some of the older parts of town.
15 But that was something we weighed heavily
16 in our review and we felt was more in the public
17 interest at this case because they did have a
18 fence along the property line on that side, and
19 so we felt it was more in the public interest to
20 promote all the parking in the back, keep it
21 residential in character in lieu of providing
22 the buffer in that front yard along the
23 driveway.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, sir.
25 Mr. Chairman, I have a few more questions.
Diane M.
Tropia,
127
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
2 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I have one for Mr. Harden
3 and I have a couple for Mr. Herzberg and one for
4 the woman that accompanied Mr. Pogsay -- or
5 Posgay to the podium.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Which one do you want
7 first?
8 MR. CRESCIMBENI: We'll take Mr. Harden.
9 He's the closest.
10 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
11 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And my question to
12 Mr. Harden, through the Chair -- Mr. Harden, you
13 mentioned something about the orientation of the
14 house. I think you said something about it lent
15 itself to commercial use. Did I hear that
16 correctly or can you restate that? I was --
17 MR. HARDEN: The house is oriented towards
18 an arterial road that has 27,000 trips a day.
19 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Was it oriented toward
20 that road when the applicant bought the house?
21 MR. HARDEN: It sure was.
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: All right. Thank you,
23 sir.
24 Mr. Herzberg, my question to you was, when
25 were you on the staff? You referenced something
Diane M.
Tropia,
128
1 in your comments earlier about the
2 recommendation from the Planning Department was
3 consistent with when you were here serving in
4 some capacity for the City. I forgot what your
5 title was. Can you tell me what your tile was
6 and your time of service, please?
7 (Mr. Herzberg approaches the podium.)
8 MR. HERZBERG: Through the Chair, sir, you
9 break my heart. I spent time right with you
10 here. I was the Zoning Administrator for the
11 City of
12 the Comprehensive Planning Division, reporting
13 to Mr. John Crofts in that capacity.
14 MR. CRESCIMBENI: See, I thought you were
15 the director.
16 MR. HERZBERG: No, sir. No, sir.
17 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And what was your tenure,
18 your years of service?
19 MR. HERZBERG: I spent 13 years with the
20 City of
21 responsibilities. My last two years were the
22 Comprehensive Planning Division chief, and prior
23 to that, I believe it was about four years as
24 the Zoning Code Administrator.
25 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Herzberg, if you can
Diane M.
Tropia,
129
1 give me the year you left, I'll do the math and
2 figure out the rest of my question.
3 MR. HERZBERG: I'll quickly do the math
4 backwards. I've been gone just about four
5 years, so --
6 MR. CRESCIMBENI: In 2005 you left here or
7 so?
8 MR. HERZBERG: That's pretty close.
9 MR. CRESCIMBENI: All right. You mentioned
10 in your report -- I think there was four
11 things. I think I heard them correctly, street
12 classification, that the proposed PUD was
13 consistent with the street classification; the
14 land use compatibility; something about
15 capacity; and I think you said structural
16 orientation. Did I hear you correctly?
17 MR. HERZBERG: Through the Chair, yes, you
18 heard me exactly correctly.
19 These are the operative provisions in the
20 future land use element. They are criteria that
21 are supposed to be reviewed and should be given
22 strong consideration. Obviously, there are
23 policies that even talk about utilizing them in
24 review that specifically call for the
25 orientation of structures and the street
Diane M.
Tropia,
130
1 classification to be considered, yes, sir.
2 MR. CRESCIMBENI: At the March 3rd LUZ
3 meeting, I had heartburn over this because of an
4 exception that was denied by the Planning
5 Department for another structure further up the
6 road. It was E-2002-42 -- I'm guessing you were
7 here during that time period -- and it was for a
8 single barber chair, one barber chair in a
9 residential home. Are you familiar with this
10 report?
11 MR. HERZBERG: Through the Chair, yes, sir,
12 I am.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. It did have
14 similar street classification, capacity,
15 structural orientation, and land use
16 compatibility?
17 MR. HERZBERG: Through the Chair, sir, the
18 actual application that you're referring to, and
19 as you've said just a minute ago in your
20 statement, was an exception, a zoning
21 exception. And members of the council and
22 yourself, sir, are well aware that the criteria
23 for an exception are separate and apart from the
24 criteria for a land use amendment and rezoning.
25 So I would ask you to consider those
Diane M.
Tropia,
131
1 criteria, and the criteria of the exception do
2 not specifically refer to the policies in the
3 comprehensive plan or the locational criteria in
4 the comprehensive plan that would be required
5 for review of a land use amendment and
6 rezoning.
7 So the application is separate and apart,
8 completely different criteria for review in that
9 manner, and also a different area with different
10 externalities. You did not have the existence
11 of a large area of commercially-designated
12 properties across the street from it. That area
13 was considerably -- I believe -- my recollection
14 that evening was just about a mile to the
15 north. I measured it from the City's GIS maps.
16 So, yes, sir, I'm well aware of that
17 exception. Again, I would tell you, it's a
18 totally different matter and should not be
19 compared with this situation.
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Well, through the Chair,
21 with all due respect, the question was, was the
22 street classification the same, was the
23 structural orientation the same, was the land
24 use compatibility the same, and was the -- I
25 think you said something about capacity. Were
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
132
1 those consistent?
2 MR. HERZBERG: No, sir. Again, they would
3 not be.
4 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Why wouldn't they be?
5 MR. HERZBERG: Again, through the Chair,
6 sir, as I just explained to you a minute ago,
7 those are not the criteria for review for that
8 type of an application.
9 MR. CRESCIMBENI: So the street
10 classification is different when we're
11 considering exceptions?
12 MR. HERZBERG: No, sir, through the Chair.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you.
14 Is the structure oriented in the same
15 manner as this structure is? Doesn't it face
16 Hendricks Avenue?
17 MR. HERZBERG: Does it face Hendricks
18 Avenue?
19 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Yes. Did this structure
20 that was part of this exception application face
21 Hendricks Avenue --
22 MR. HERZBERG: The exception application?
23 Yes, it faced Hendricks Avenue.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: I'm getting my answers.
25 Thank you very much.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
133
1 MR. HERZBERG: Very good.
2 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And my last question was
3 for the woman that accompanied --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: The lady from the Genesis
5 Group. I'm sorry, I can't remember your name.
6 If you can come down, please.
7 (Ms. Sonneborn approaches the podium.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crescimbeni.
9 MS. SONNEBORN: Yes, sir.
10 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Sorry, what was your
11 name, ma'am?
12 MS. SONNEBORN: Dawn Sonneborn.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Sonneborn?
14 MS. SONNEBORN: Sonneborn.
15 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Sonneborn.
16 Ms. Sonneborn, in your report, you
17 talked -- I think I heard something about --
18 you're talking about the traffic. Do you have
19 an explanation -- we kind of heard an
20 explanation earlier from the Planning
21 Department, but do you have an opinion on why
22 the traffic has been reducing on Hendricks
23 Avenue?
24 MS. SONNEBORN: Well, they do actual
25 traffic counts. And with the DOT information
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
134
1 that was provided, I do not have the reasons for
2 that. We just took the DOT information from the
3 actual counts and put that in our report to show
4 that there has been a reduction.
5 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay.
6 MS. SONNEBORN: And I may ask if there's
7 any clarification from my engineer on reasons
8 why. I don't believe that is in that FDOT
9 report.
10 May I ask for clarification?
11 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Does he have --
12 MS. SONNEBORN: Do you have anything to
13 add, Bill?
14 MR. BYERS: No.
15 MS. SONNEBORN: Okay.
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Thank you very
17 much.
18 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are you going to
19 allow debate later or --
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. We're still on the
21 amendment. So we'll pass the amendments and
22 then we'll get to the bill.
23 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop.
25 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
135
1 Just a couple of quick questions. First
2 for Mr. Kelly.
3 Follow-up on what Mr. Crescimbeni had
4 talked about with respect to the arrangement of
5 the parking on the site and driveways and
6 setbacks and those sorts of like things.
7 You made a comment that one of the
8 considerations for allowing basically the
9 driveway to go in the side buffer area is
10 because it allowed the parking to go in the back
11 of the site as opposed to in the front and that
12 the parking could have fit in the front.
13 My question to you is, based on what I'm --
14 well, it's sort of a comment, slash, question,
15 but from what I understand about how the zoning
16 code works and traffic rules and requirements
17 regarding access to a piece of property for
18 parking purposes, how would you fit the parking
19 spaces in the front yard and meet the criteria
20 that's in our code? In a 25-foot space that has
21 one driveway off of Hendricks.
22 MR. KELLY: The setback is actually a
23 30-foot setback. Essentially, you've got a
24 75-foot width in a lot, so you wouldn't have
25 your parking going face in. You would have
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
136
1 basically a 24-foot aisle with two parking
2 spaces on either side, and then likely a
3 handicapped parking space or they could even
4 obtain credit for on-street parking in front of
5 the structure as well.
6 MR. BISHOP: What's the process for
7 obtaining credit for on-street parking?
8 MR. KELLY: It's allowed in the zoning code
9 right now.
10 MR. BISHOP: Okay. Thank you.
11 The next question is for Mr. Herzberg.
12 (Mr. Herzberg approaches the podium.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Herzberg, if I can just
14 get you to stay in the front row. You'll
15 probably be called back again.
16 MR. HERZBERG: Yes, sir.
17 MR. BISHOP: You're a popular guy tonight.
18 Good evening. How are you?
19 MR. HERZBERG: Good evening.
20 I'm well, sir. Thank you.
21 MR. BISHOP: One of the primary arguments
22 for approving this change seems to be that this
23 particular property faces a highly-traveled,
24 noisy arterial road which tends to degrade its
25 value as a residential property. That's the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
137
1 inference I get from some of the comments.
2 Would you agree with that?
3 MR. HERZBERG: Through the Chair, sir, I
4 would agree that that is one of the primary
5 considerations, yes, sir.
6 MR. BISHOP: Okay. With that in mind, in
7 your planning opinion, would you suggest, then,
8 that orientation to a major arterial road could
9 be a factor in considering any particular piece
10 of property that fronts a major arterial?
11 If the property faces an arterial, that
12 would be a legitimate consideration in an
13 attempt to reclassify that parcel from
14 residential to commercial?
15 MR. HERZBERG: Through the Chair, sir, I
16 would say that would be a consideration for a
17 change in the use, one of many considerations as
18 far as changing the use, yes, sir.
19 MR. BISHOP: Would you consider it a major
20 factor?
21 MR. HERZBERG: In this instance, with the
22 degree of severity that we're actually talking
23 about here, again, the local road, 1,600 cars,
24 17 times that many, I would say that's a -- this
25 is a major factor for the viability of this as a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
138
1 residential and the compatibility of it to the
2 surrounding commercial activity, yes, sir.
3 MR. BISHOP: Okay. From along San Jose,
4 which is essentially Hendricks, from just north
5 of Epping Forest down to just south of the
6 San Jose Country Club, there is a whole string
7 of residential properties that face San Jose.
8 Would you consider the fact that they all front
9 a highly-traveled, noisy arterial road as
10 grounds for those property owners to also come
11 back and try to reclassify those residential
12 properties to commercial? In your planning
13 opinion, would you think that would be a
14 legitimate exercise?
15 MR. HERZBERG: Through the Chair, sir, if
16 we're speaking to the ones on the east side --
17 MR. BISHOP: East side.
18 MR. HERZBERG: Yes, sir. And I recall
19 those were part of an illegal subdivision of
20 property under the City of Jacksonville's
21 regulations, but --
22 MR. BISHOP: It was also developed in
23 1920-something.
24 MR. HERZBERG: I believe the recordation of
25 those was later, if I'm not mistaken. I may be
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
139
1 in error.
2 My statement to that would be, yes, that
3 would be a consideration, that that should be
4 considered for, you know, the legitimate
5 petition to increase -- that was -- again, we're
6 talking about commercial-office-type uses. I'm
7 not supporting that this should be a, you know,
8 retail activity or --
9 MR. BISHOP: No, I'm talking like for like.
10 MR. HERZBERG: I would say that that is
11 a -- it would be a factor and consideration, why
12 would you have built that house there,
13 especially in the later dates that some of those
14 homes were built, but, again, yes, I would think
15 it would be a factor for consideration on those
16 properties.
17 MR. BISHOP: Most of those properties, for
18 the record -- the ones that I'm familiar with --
19 were built in the '20s and '30s.
20 MR. HERZBERG: Okay.
21 MR. BISHOP: Thank you.
22 MR. HERZBERG: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We're on the
24 amendment. It's been moved and seconded. All
25 in favor of the amendment signify by saying aye.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
140
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
5 approved the amendment.
6 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
7 MR. HOLT: Second.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
9 seconded as amended.
10 Diane, are you still good?
11 THE REPORTER: Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. The bill's been moved
13 and seconded as amended.
14 I don't have anything on the queue.
15 Mr. Crescimbeni said he needs to speak, so I
16 need to make sure --
17 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Chairman, I --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. Mr. Holt was
19 there. Sorry about that.
20 I'll get back to you, Mr. Crescimbeni.
21 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
22 I just had two more questions for Planning,
23 focused on the bill itself.
24 Through the Chair to Sean or John, if the
25 neighboring property -- I guess that would be to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
141
1 the south of this one, which is also oriented to
2 Hendricks Avenue -- were to submit an
3 application for the same, could those two
4 properties be brought together on a subsequent
5 PUD? And if they were, would the same
6 requirements be put on that combination of the
7 two properties, setbacks and all the buffering
8 and such?
9 MR. KELLY: The two properties, in the
10 future, I mean, they could be combined, but,
11 again, you're looking at another land use
12 amendment in addition to a rezoning of that
13 property -- combination, I guess, rezoning of
14 both properties or property owners would have to
15 agree to file an application, and certainly we
16 would look to the Planning Department's
17 recommendations on the original rezoning as well
18 as other similar requests in the surrounding
19 area to, yes, have those same conditions imposed
20 on that.
21 MR. HOLT: So you think if one day down the
22 road those two properties were combined for a
23 PUD, you guys would be looking to require
24 that -- the architectural standard would be
25 similar to the residential in the same area and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
142
1 the same requirements that you have for this
2 one?
3 MR. KELLY: We absolutely would, yes.
4 MR. HOLT: Okay. We've talked a lot about
5 the orientation toward Hendricks Avenue
6 tonight. Can you point to any other
7 applications or another location in Jacksonville
8 where we use this as a major factor in deciding
9 whether to allow a commercial office, the fact
10 that it's oriented toward the road, any other
11 locations?
12 MR. KELLY: Yeah. And kind of piggyback on
13 some of Councilman Webb's concerns about, I
14 guess, previous precedents in the area. There
15 has been a trend in this area from residential,
16 especially along San Jose Boulevard, to
17 commercial office uses, which are
18 professional -- limited professional office, the
19 Matt Carlucci insurance building.
20 We did see the Scott Nooney office
21 building, which did involve a land use
22 amendment, which one of the proponents -- or the
23 opponents of this rezoning were actually the
24 agent filing for that land use amendment and
25 rezoning, which bordered four residential
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
143
1 properties, so -- LDR to RPI.
2 So I do want to point -- that there has
3 been a trend in this area for commercial
4 office.
5 Green & Kupperman recently did another
6 professional office building expansion in
7 Miramar, San Marco, San Jose corridor.
8 So the trend is not towards residential on
9 the corridor. The trend is towards commercial
10 office, very limited professional office.
11 MR. HOLT: What I'm trying to get to,
12 though, is, is this a policy that we look to
13 citywide, not just specifically in this area?
14 Can you think of any other areas of
15 Jacksonville where we used this orientation
16 toward the road as a major factor in deciding?
17 MR. KELLY: Certainly the orientation of
18 the road -- again, we look at the operative
19 provisions in the future land use element, the
20 locational criteria. They all come into play
21 with rezonings and land use amendments.
22 I think to a greater extent it's the
23 established character of the corridor that we
24 look at. And as roads get widened, they become
25 less attractive for residential, so there has to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
144
1 be a transition along that corridor.
2 The intent here is to, you know, keep it as
3 compatible as possible with the residential uses
4 in this area.
5 MR. HOLT: Can any of you guys think of
6 another area in Jacksonville where this kind of
7 thing has -- similar, where we have considered
8 the orientation -- what I'm looking for is -- I
9 don't want us to leave here tonight thinking
10 that this was a standard that was created for
11 this particular decision. I'd like to know that
12 somewhere else in Jacksonville we've used this
13 orientation argument as a basis for our
14 decision-making.
15 MR. KELLY: Well, certainly.
16 As Mr. Charlie Mann indicated, a number of
17 corridors in Arlington, Rogero Road, Merrill
18 Road has been in the past -- properties on the
19 Northside, properties in historic districts,
20 along Park Street in Riverside and Avondale.
21 This is not uncommon.
22 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you, sir.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crescimbeni.
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 I have no questions, but I did -- I do go
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
145
1 back to the application for exception. It was
2 filed in 2002. It was on a similar property, on
3 the same street, with the same street
4 classification. The home was oriented in the
5 same manner. It was for one chair -- a
6 one-chair home salon, which meant, at most,
7 there could only be probably two cars there at
8 one time visiting. One customer was arriving
9 for their appointment and one departing, and the
10 Planning Department recommended denial for
11 that. They said it was incompatible with the
12 surrounding land use. They said it would be
13 detrimental to surrounding property values.
14 And, again, I just -- I do not see how we
15 could have two reports on two parcels that are
16 almost a mile apart from each other on the same
17 road with the same classification, facing the
18 same way with such contradictory opinions from
19 our own department.
20 Something's wrong. I don't want to
21 speculate as to what might be wrong, but I don't
22 think it's fair to the citizens. It either
23 wasn't fair to this applicant in 2002, or if it
24 was fair in 2002, it's not fair tonight.
25 And I would urge the committee to give that
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
146
1 great consideration because there's something
2 amiss here. And if it wasn't good enough in
3 2002, it certainly shouldn't be good enough in
4 2009, and I hope you will take that into
5 consideration and vote to deny.
6 Even with the amendments, it still doesn't
7 change the fact that an office building is going
8 to have a much higher intensity with vehicle
9 traffic, customer and patron traffic than a
10 one-chair salon would have ever had.
11 Thank you very much.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
13 Mr. Brown.
14 MR. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair to the
15 representative from the Genesis Group.
16 Is she still here?
17 (Ms. Sonneborn approaches the podium.)
18 MR. BROWN: Great.
19 I had a chance to review again the
20 recommendations, and then we added a few more
21 tonight. Have you had a chance -- have you had
22 the opportunity to meet with the applicant?
23 MS. SONNEBORN: No. I have not met with
24 the applicant.
25 MR. BROWN: Okay. So throughout this
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
147
1 entire process, both parties have not met to
2 discuss --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, sir, your question was
4 has she met with the applicant.
5 MR. BROWN: Yeah, I'm sorry.
6 MS. SONNEBORN: No, I have not.
7 MR. BROWN: You have not. Okay.
8 Do you desire that opportunity?
9 MS. SONNEBORN: No, I do not.
10 MR. BROWN: I'm sorry?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: She said no.
12 MS. SONNEBORN: No, I do not.
13 MR. BROWN: Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Webb, followed by
15 Mr. Bishop.
16 MR. WEBB: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 I guess I have a follow-up question to
18 legal with regard to Mr. Crescimbeni's argument.
19 Since we're in a quasi-judicial proceeding
20 here, I think what he's getting at is maybe some
21 res judicata effect of this prior Planning
22 Department denial, the exception. It seems to
23 me that's where the legal argument is going, but
24 would you --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: What was that word again for
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
148
1 us nonattorneys?
2 MR. WEBB: Res judicata is -- Shannon, I
3 mean, again, there is no -- again, given the
4 different -- differing factual analysis -- or
5 the different facts at hand, I mean, that --
6 that earlier -- I just want to clarify. That --
7 is there any controlling -- is that -- the prior
8 decision controlling on this council in any
9 way?
10 MS. ELLER: The application before you
11 should be weighed upon the criteria that are
12 before you for rezonings, which are in the
13 zoning code. And they are, as Mr. Herzberg
14 mentioned, different from zoning exceptions.
15 So the criteria you have before you
16 includes an analysis on consistency with the
17 comp plan, all the things that you're familiar
18 with.
19 It's my understanding -- and I don't want
20 to put words in the council member's mouth, but
21 it's my understanding that he wanted to raise
22 the issues with regard to what you are
23 evaluating under the zoning code and compare
24 them to the particular application from the
25 past.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
149
1 I believe that the applications are
2 different and that you have to evaluate this one
3 upon the competent substantial evidence that's
4 presented to you tonight, but I don't think that
5 prevents the council member from raising those
6 issues for --
7 MR. WEBB: Sure, I agree with that. I just
8 want to make sure that there's no binding
9 authority here on us.
10 Okay. Fair enough.
11 That answers my question. Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop.
13 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 Just a -- at this point, a real quick
15 procedural question. Are we on debate on the
16 bill or are we still in the question phase?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: We are on the bill.
18 MR. BISHOP: Well, then my comments at this
19 point -- to me, this whole issue just seems to
20 be really clear. This is spot zoning of the
21 worst kind. The whole city is full of examples
22 of where this stuff has happened. And I think
23 the question we all need to ask ourselves, at
24 what point does spot zoning become precedent and
25 the established norm? Because the whole city is
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
150
1 full of streets that at one point or other were
2 all residential and somewhere along the line one
3 guy changed his property.
4 Those streets today are nothing but
5 commercial strips. How does that happen?
6 My suggestion to you is that what you heard
7 from the residents out there is a fact, and we
8 all know it's a fact, is that zoning creep
9 happens. One happens, another one happens, the
10 next one happens after that. That's what this
11 represents.
12 To use the example of Beard's Jewelry and
13 the Metro Diner as examples of existing
14 commercial -- yeah, they're existing, but
15 they've been there for 50 years and nothing else
16 has happened on that side of the street since
17 then. So the -- to use them as precedence, to
18 me, is a little bit of a stretch because nothing
19 has changed in that length of time, and so now
20 all of a sudden we've got one more, the next one
21 down the line.
22 To me, this is just so patently obvious
23 that you don't do stuff like this. It's
24 almost -- it's a given in my world that you just
25 don't do this stuff because it's just not right
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
151
1 to the existing residential neighborhood.
2 It will change the character of that little
3 node on those three -- that little triangular
4 section. There's no doubt in my mind about that
5 based on what we've heard, based on what this
6 plan is going to do, and just based -- if you
7 look at similar situations in all of your
8 neighborhoods or all of your districts, you see
9 this stuff. There's nothing unique about this.
10 It happens all over the place.
11 Take a look at what happens when you get
12 one of these and a little nexus of houses. What
13 happens to the houses around them over time?
14 What happens over time to the houses across the
15 street?
16 And I would suggest that one of the
17 criteria that has been identified is because of
18 the location of this property, the -- if it were
19 to go to residential or rental, you would get a
20 lower rate for it because of where it is.
21 I would also suggest one of the -- one of
22 the issues here is the condition of the
23 property. A well-maintained property will
24 generate higher a revenue than a
25 less-than-desirable-maintained property.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
152
1 Now, there's nothing against this
2 particular piece of property, but we've all seen
3 the pictures and it isn't kept up at the moment
4 anyway to the same standard as the surrounding
5 houses, so naturally I would think it would be
6 logical that you wouldn't get the same caliber
7 of tenant in there that you would as an adjacent
8 homeowner because someone of -- like the
9 adjacent homeowner wouldn't pay that much to
10 live in a house of that condition.
11 That is just something else to consider for
12 all of that whole exercise of what is the
13 relative value of that site versus something
14 else.
15 But at the end of the day, the discussion
16 here is whether or not this particular property,
17 this particular location should be allowed to be
18 rezoned to a commercial use. And based on
19 everything that I've seen here, based on
20 everything in my experience as an architect in
21 however many years I've been doing this -- it's
22 hard to remember anymore. I guess we all get
23 old in that kind of thing, but this is just not
24 something you do as a good neighborhood design
25 practice.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
153
1 And for that -- and I strongly urge this
2 committee not to accept this because it's
3 just -- you could look all over the city and you
4 see the results of this type of behavior.
5 Arlington is full of it. The Westside is full
6 of it. Streets have been named, and we've
7 talked about -- we've talked about Blanding;
8 we've talked about Wesconnett; we've talked
9 about, in our case, Rogero Road, Arlington Road,
10 all of these streets.
11 Pick a section of the city, there's streets
12 all over the place that you can see the results
13 of this type of lack of planning. This isn't
14 planning; this is a lack of planning. Okay?
15 You know what happens. You know it's going
16 to happen. It's been done time and time again.
17 And, for those reasons, please don't do this.
18 It is just not the right thing to do.
19 Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: We're on the bill as
21 amended. Please open the ballot.
22 (Committee ballot opened.)
23 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. JOOST: (Votes nay.)
25 MR. BROWN: (Votes nay.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
154
1 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
5 (Committee ballot closed.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
7 the vote.
8 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, two nays.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
10 approved 2009-115.
11 Next we'll go to page 4 --
12 Diane, I've got one quick.
13 Page 4, number 10, bottom of the page,
14 2008-970. We will open the public hearing.
15 Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public
16 hearing.
17 There's an amendment.
18 MR. HOLT: Move the amendment.
19 MR. JOOST: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment's been moved
21 and seconded.
22 Any discussion on the amendment?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, all in favor
25 say aye.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
155
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
5 the amendment.
6 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
7 MR. HOLT: Second.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill's been moved and
9 seconded.
10 Any discussion on the bill?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
13 ballot.
14 (Committee ballot opened.)
15 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
18 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. WEBB: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
22 (Committee ballot closed.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
24 the vote.
25 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nays.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
156
1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
2 approved 2008-970.
3 That being the case, we need to let our
4 court reporter rest her little hands, so we'll
5 take about a seven-minute break. So it will
6 be -- five minutes till 8:00 we'll reconvene.
7 Thank you.
8 (Brief recess.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let's go to the
10 beginning of the agenda.
11 Top of page 2, 2005-1228. Open the public
12 hearing.
13 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: We have Mr. Harden.
15 MR. HARDEN: Thank you.
16 Paul Harden, 501 Riverside Avenue.
17 This is a PUD that's been pending for about
18 four years. It's number 1 on your agenda. It's
19 hopefully going to go away tonight. It's in
20 Councilman Davis' district, and I'll ask --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, it's going to go away
22 tonight.
23 MR. HARDEN: Thank you.
24 In the last 60 days, we have renegotiated
25 the terms of the PUD based on some input from
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
157
1 Councilman Davis, so we had to readvertise and
2 start anew with it.
3 But in 2005, the comp plan on the frontage
4 was amended to go to CGC to the rear to an MDR.
5 However, there's a limitation of single-family
6 at a cutoff of Old Gainesville Road, which is an
7 unopened road at that location. So it's a mixed
8 use of commercial on Normandy and multifamily
9 behind it and then single-family, although maybe
10 townhouses to the rear.
11 There were two folks who spoke at Planning
12 Commission. One, I think the gentleman got his
13 question answered. The other one, Mr. Sanders
14 is here tonight. I don't think their issue
15 relates to our zoning.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harden, hold on a
17 second.
18 Ms. Eller.
19 MS. ELLER: Oh, I'm sorry. Would you
20 repeat the question?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, no. We just wanted to
22 make sure that you were paying attention.
23 MS. ELLER: I'm paying attention.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harden, please continue.
25 MR. HARDEN: Okay. At the Planning
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
158
1 Commission, the General Counsel's Office opined
2 that the access issue that this --
3 Mr. Sanders -- now Mr. Sanders' client -- was
4 unrelated to the zoning. He has a condition to
5 which I cannot agree to tonight. I'll see if I
6 can deal with it.
7 This -- his client is currently landlocked,
8 and ultimately she would like access to
9 Normandy, but she wants it through our
10 property. Because we don't know what the exact
11 design will be until we engineer it, we don't
12 know if we can agree to it.
13 But just so you know, Old Gainesville Road
14 is closed on both ends of our property. The
15 only piece that's open runs through the middle
16 of our property and it's not actually
17 constructed, so it's closed on either end. I
18 think it's fair to say ultimately it will be
19 closed in the middle because it goes nowhere.
20 So I will consider Mr. Sanders' language
21 between now and Tuesday night, but the terms of
22 the PUD were terms negotiated with Councilman
23 Davis to which he is agreeable, subsequent to
24 the land use map amendment, which was passed
25 four years ago.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
159
1 Other than that, I'll be happy to answer
2 any questions.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
4 Mr. Sanders.
5 (Mr. Sanders approaches the podium.)
6 MR. SANDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 Karl Sanders with the law firm Edwards
8 Cohen, 6 East Bay Street.
9 Mr. Chairman, may I hand out just a little
10 map here to kind of give you a point of
11 reference --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
13 MR. SANDERS: -- to the committee members?
14 THE CHAIRMAN: We've got it.
15 Has it been that long, Mr. Sanders?
16 MR. SANDERS: Mr. Chairman and members of
17 the committee, Mr. Harden is right. I mean, I'm
18 not here to -- I know I checked off the little
19 box as in opposition to this rezoning, but we
20 don't have a problem with the rezoning. In
21 fact, my clients would like to see this property
22 rezoned to allow for the uses that he is
23 proposing, the residential -- multifamily and
24 the commercial uses. We're not here to oppose
25 that. We're not here to extract any conditions
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
160
1 on building height or setbacks or landscaping or
2 anything of that nature.
3 What we are here for is to ensure that any
4 final development order that approves this
5 rezoning will provide my clients with access or
6 a potential for an access point to their
7 property, and let me kind of briefly explain
8 what that means.
9 My client owns about a ten-acre tract that
10 is just east of the north -- northernmost
11 portion of Mr. Harden's client's parcel. It's
12 the box that is above the one with the box that
13 has Old Gainesville Road intersecting it.
14 Over the course of the -- Old Gainesville
15 Road is an old platted right-of-way. It's part
16 of the Jacksonville Heights old plat on the
17 Westside, what used to extend all the way from
18 Blair Road on the southwest intersection of
19 Blair and Normandy, diagonally up across and
20 connects over to Crystal Springs Road. It's
21 only been improved about 100 feet on either
22 side.
23 And over the years, various segments of
24 Old Gainesville Road have been closed off to --
25 more specifically, the most recent two were to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
161
1 allow for two residential subdivisions, McGirts
2 Creek, I believe, to the west and the Pine Crest
3 subdivision to the east.
4 As a consequence of those road closures, my
5 client does not have legal access to their
6 property, and that's a problem. It's a problem
7 that we're trying to fix through a variety of
8 means. This is just one point in the process.
9 And what we would like to do is to request
10 that this committee and the council ultimately
11 consider a condition, as Mr. Harden referenced,
12 that I am proposing that would incorporate an
13 access point to the property.
14 And I'll -- if I may, Mr. Chairman, just
15 read it, and I've got it typed out here if
16 Ms. Eller wants a copy.
17 And the condition that we're proposing is
18 as follows: That a roadway connection shall be
19 reserved to allow for future access to
20 Old Gainesville Road and the two adjoining
21 parcels, real estate numbers 008988-0000 and
22 008986-5000, situated east of the northernmost
23 part of the subject property.
24 And if I may, Mr. Chairman, just conclude.
25 I heard the thing go off.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
162
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
2 MR. SANDERS: Mr. Harden is correct. This
3 is not a zoning issue, but zoning is not the
4 only aspect that this committee considers. You
5 also consider the land use aspects of a
6 particular development.
7 And, to that end, the future land use
8 element of the City of Jacksonville's
9 comprehensive plan does, indeed, speak to the
10 issue of requiring access to adjoining
11 properties, and in particular that is --
12 policy 1.3.9 of the future land use element
13 states, among other things, that unless the
14 Department -- the Planning Department makes a
15 specific finding that they are not necessary or
16 appropriate, connections shall be required to be
17 reserved in all proposed rezonings and site
18 plans where there is the possibility of the
19 creation of a local or collector roadway.
20 We submit that that possibility does, in
21 fact, exist. And, for that reason, we would ask
22 that the proposed condition be incorporated into
23 any approval that you give this site plan.
24 Thank you for your time, and we'll be
25 available for questions.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
163
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Sanders.
2 Seeing no other speakers, we'll close that
3 public hearing.
4 MR. HARDEN: I just got this. Can I make a
5 comment?
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
7 MR. HARDEN: And I apologize.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, hold on. I'm sure
9 someone will call you up --
10 MR. HARDEN: Oh, okay.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: -- or I'll call you back up.
12 MR. HARDEN: All right.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We closed the public
14 hearing. We have an amendment. Can we hear the
15 amendment?
16 Actually, can we get a motion and a second
17 for the amendment?
18 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
19 MR. BROWN: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
21 seconded.
22 Can we hear the amendments, please.
23 MR. CROFTS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The
24 amendment is as follows:
25 "The development shall be subject to the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
164
1 revised legal description dated April 21st,
2 2009, to conform to the site plan."
3 Number 2, "The development shall be subject
4 to the revised written description dated
5 March 5th, 2009."
6 Number 3, "The development shall be subject
7 to the revised site plan dated March 5th,
8 2009."
9 Number 4, "The required transportation
10 improvements shall be made in accordance with
11 the Development Services Division memorandum
12 dated March 13th, 2009, and the Transportation
13 Planning Division memorandum dated March 16th,
14 2009, and with the Florida Department of
15 Transportation letter dated October 20th, 2005,
16 or as otherwise approved by the Planning and
17 Development Department and the Florida
18 Department of Transportation."
19 Condition number 5, "The development shall
20 comply with Part 6 of the zoning code."
21 Number 6, "The signs for the commercial
22 parcels shall not exceed 35 feet in height."
23 Number 7, "The schools shall not be
24 permitted in parcel 1."
25 Number 8, "The maximum building height
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
165
1 shall not exceed 50 feet."
2 Finally, number 9, "Access to the portion
3 of the site north of Old Gainesville Road
4 right-of-way shall be reviewed and approved at
5 the time of verification of substantial
6 compliance by the Planning and Development
7 Department."
8 That's it.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harden, are you okay
10 with those amendments, and did you have anything
11 else to add?
12 MR. HARDEN: I'm fine with the conditions
13 of staff.
14 But, in all due respect, as much as I like
15 Mr. Sanders, he's trying to make his problem my
16 problem. And I think the appropriate way to do
17 that would -- even if we did his amendment -- if
18 you'll look at his map, when they want to go
19 either way on Old Gainesville Road, it's closed
20 on either end, so it doesn't solve his problem.
21 Ultimately what they're going to have to do
22 is create a right-of-way by necessity through a
23 court order. And that may go through our
24 property, it may go through somebody else's
25 property. And so I think what you're doing
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
166
1 is -- we don't know what our engineering is
2 going to be. We don't know if there's room for
3 a stub-out at that location.
4 So we would respectfully request that that
5 matter be handled outside the zoning procedure,
6 understanding that we may be a defendant in them
7 trying to establish a right-of-way, but I don't
8 think doing it in the zoning process is the
9 appropriate way to do it.
10 But I am okay with the staff conditions.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
12 Ms. Eller, can you speak to the part of law
13 that Mr. Sanders spoke to and this issue as far
14 as access to that property?
15 MS. ELLER: Sure.
16 As you are all familiar with, in general,
17 the -- you have to -- you have to be able to
18 have access to your property. However, the
19 forum that is used to determine that access is a
20 judicial proceeding which ultimately could
21 result in a right-of-way by necessity.
22 It could be, as Mr. Harden mentioned,
23 through his property. It could be through one
24 of the roads that were established by one of
25 these PUDs or site plans or plats that the City
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
167
1 approved in the past or to the north or to the
2 south, the east or the west. It's --
3 I don't see it as a zoning issue. If the
4 applicant were agreeable to it and wanted to add
5 it as a condition to their PUD, then the City
6 could most assuredly accept that, but the
7 applicant has indicated that they do not want to
8 provide that.
9 I think that there is a mechanism whereby
10 Mr. Sanders can ensure his client's access. It
11 may ultimately result in, you know, action
12 against the City for our, you know, approval of
13 these plats and there may be some process
14 whereby we're involved further, or it could just
15 be between all of the private property owners
16 surrounding that piece of property.
17 So I think the access issue is outside of
18 the zoning decision. I think whether this
19 property is zoned PUD or zoned what it's zoned
20 now, the access issue still exists, especially
21 given the fact that Old Gainesville Road has
22 been closed in those two places.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Does the City have any
24 liability because of the closing of
25 Old Gainesville Road, or was that even a public
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
168
1 right-of-way before it was -- I guess was it
2 a -- is it a public right-of-way that was
3 closed, or was that never really a public
4 right-of-way?
5 MS. ELLER: I believe it was a public
6 right-of-way. I don't know if it was opened.
7 It might have been an unopened right-of-way
8 before it was closed. But, in any event, you
9 know, the closure of the road there -- that did
10 come through City Council, it's my
11 understanding, unless it was closed by some sort
12 of plat process.
13 But, you know, whether or not we're on the
14 hook for any of -- anything in that situation,
15 that would be determined by the judge and we'd
16 take a historical look at all of the rights that
17 were attached to that property and how it became
18 closed on the subsequent subdivision approvals.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Eller.
20 Mr. Joost.
21 MR. JOOST: You asked my question.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: That's what I was hoping.
23 Mr. Sanders, question for you.
24 (Mr. Sanders approaches the podium.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Was your -- how long has
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
169
1 your client owned this piece of property, and
2 were they involved or actually notified about
3 any of the closure of this road?
4 MR. SANDERS: Through the Chair to the
5 committee, my client has not owned the property
6 for that long. My client actually just -- it
7 recently was held by her ex-father-in-law, and
8 she now has an interest in the property by
9 virtue of a divorce decree.
10 So -- but she has a pretty good idea -- in
11 fact, we have a very good idea of the process
12 that was employed to close those portions of
13 Old Gainesville Road.
14 And I would say two things: One, I agree
15 with Mr. Harden, I agree with Ms. Eller, it's
16 not a zoning issue; it's a land use issue. But
17 you can't adopt -- you cannot, as a matter of
18 law, adopt a rezoning that's inconsistent with a
19 specific policy, mandatory policy in your
20 comprehensive plan. That's where -- that's
21 where we're angling on this.
22 Secondly, to your question on the -- I
23 guess the potential liability issue. Again,
24 Ms. Eller is correct, this is not the forum, I
25 respectfully submit, to discuss that.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
170
1 But, yes, if a landowner has a piece of
2 property, the law says that landowner has to
3 have legal access to get there. And if the
4 government cuts off that access by whatever
5 means, then the government could, in fact, be
6 potentially liable for creating a new access to
7 that property. And the legal cause of action,
8 that is called inverse condemnation.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, does your client have
10 access to that property today?
11 MR. SANDERS: We do not have access at all.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So, then, this
13 committee of the government won't be shutting
14 off any access to your property.
15 MR. SANDERS: Well, no. But what we're
16 trying to do is to mitigate your potential
17 damages. And by that I mean -- there is only
18 one access into this property. If we don't have
19 access from Normandy -- to get from Normandy to
20 Old Gainesville Road is what we're trying to
21 do. It's impossible to get from Crystal Springs
22 to the property because they're subdivisions.
23 It's impossible to get from Blair Road to the
24 property because they're either platted or
25 existing subdivisions.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
171
1 The only way is to get up through Normandy,
2 and what the law is -- what the court is going
3 to do is say, well, what's the most direct point
4 from -- access from point A to point B? And
5 there's only one parcel that separates
6 Old Gainesville Road and Normandy Boulevard
7 proximate to our parcel, and that is the parcel
8 that's owned by Mr. Harden's client.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sanders, and no
10 disrespect to you or your client, Mr. Harden's
11 client is on one side of four sides. Why is it
12 his client's issue?
13 MR. SANDERS: One side of four sides.
14 Well, his property is -- two things: One,
15 today it's not his issue, and he's correct. And
16 he's correct -- and I like his expression that
17 he doesn't want my problem to become his
18 problem.
19 But the fact of the matter is ultimately
20 it's going to be not just my client's problem,
21 but it's going to likely be the City's problem.
22 And the question is, what is the most
23 efficient -- or I should say, economical way to
24 get access to this parcel? Is it through an
25 approved and platted and built-out subdivision
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
172
1 where there are existing homes and families
2 living in them, or is it through an unimproved
3 parcel that is now in the process of being
4 rezoned so we're actually planning for that
5 contingency in the future?
6 And, again, whatever this committee does --
7 Mr. Harden is correct -- is not going to
8 establish an access from Normandy to
9 Old Gainesville Road. We just want to ensure
10 that we have it on the record that there's an
11 access point somewhere on Old Gainesville Road
12 so in the event that a future court does
13 determine that we have access, we've further
14 clarified that.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: So do you feel like you've
16 got sufficient things on the record? Because it
17 sounds like you're going to court.
18 MR. SANDERS: We do.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
20 MR. SANDERS: And we thank you for your
21 consideration. But, again, we do believe that
22 it is a land use issue and that your
23 comprehensive plan requires that you adopt some
24 type of condition to that effect.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
173
1 MR. SANDERS: And I would leave that up to
2 staff or OGC to --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
4 MR. SANDERS: Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: We're on the amendment.
6 All in favor of the amendment signify by
7 saying aye.
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
12 approved the amendment.
13 DR. GAFFNEY: Move the bill as amended.
14 MR. HOLT: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
16 seconded as amended.
17 Any discussion on the bill?
18 Mr. Joost.
19 MR. JOOST: Just for my own education,
20 through the Chair to Ms. Eller, even though
21 right now this particular zoning doesn't affect
22 this gentleman's easement to his property, I
23 mean, what liability does the City have -- I
24 guess there were conditions prior to this zoning
25 that shut off access to the property. It was
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
174
1 always my understanding that as a landowner you
2 had protection always to have some type of
3 easement or access to your property.
4 When the City takes actions where you get
5 landlocked as a landowner, what kind of
6 liability does that possibly create?
7 MS. ELLER: It just depends on the facts of
8 the case. If it's the City's actions, in fact,
9 that have cut off access to a landowner, the
10 City could be responsible for providing the
11 roadway, constructing the roadway to get there.
12 In this particular case, I have not done
13 the complete, in-depth history of this property
14 from beginning to end to find out if there is,
15 in fact, an unopened paper road, if you will,
16 that surrounds it -- that could be the legal
17 access that a judge would find -- whether or not
18 any of the platting or whether there were some
19 obligations by any of those surrounding
20 neighborhoods and subdivisions that needed to be
21 fulfilled in order to provide access.
22 But, again, if it's determined by a judge
23 that the City did, in fact, do something that
24 cut off their access, then the judge would
25 determine what the damages would be. It could
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
175
1 be the cost to grant the access. It could be
2 something else.
3 But at this point, on this particular
4 rezoning, you know, that is not a factor, in my
5 opinion, on this particular rezoning because
6 regardless of how this property is zoned, the
7 land out there, the dirt out there is configured
8 exactly the same and the conditions that exist
9 now will continue to exist, which is you have a
10 strip of Old Gainesville Road that transects
11 Mr. Harden's property, and you've got it closed
12 on both sides by other property owners.
13 MR. JOOST: Okay. Two other quick
14 questions and then we'll get on with the
15 business of this evening.
16 Have you ever seen prior to this where a
17 similar condition existed and we took remedial
18 action as suggested by this gentleman?
19 MS. ELLER: I have seen other PUDs where
20 the property owner was amenable to including a
21 condition regarding access to a surrounding
22 property owner. In those cases, in my
23 recollection, it was because there was a
24 likelihood that in a court case that particular
25 property owner would have to give that access
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
176
1 anyway.
2 I think Mr. Harden's position, as
3 previously expressed, is that it may not be him.
4 MR. JOOST: It may be.
5 MS. ELLER: It may not be him. It may be
6 someone else.
7 MR. JOOST: One other question. What if
8 the landowner -- because I'm assuming at some
9 point what they did is they sold parcels of land
10 off -- over time landlocked themselves?
11 MS. ELLER: That would be a factor that
12 could be considered by the courts. Again, that
13 would likely go to -- maybe to damages.
14 But, again, an easement by necessity,
15 meaning that a surrounding property owner would
16 have to grant rights through that court action
17 to allow the subject property owner to cross
18 over their land, those are granted as a solution
19 quite often.
20 The issue of whether or not the property
21 owner did it to themselves, if you will, by
22 selling off property and failing to reserve the
23 proper rights, that's a part of the fact-finding
24 that the judge would do. And it may go towards,
25 you know, whether or not anybody is on the hook
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
177
1 for cash as opposed to just on the hook for
2 giving somebody the right to cross over their
3 dirt to get to this other property.
4 MR. JOOST: So even if I did it to myself,
5 I can still seek remediation through the court?
6 MS. ELLER: I think so. I think that
7 you're in a worse position with regard to asking
8 for cash or asking for somebody else to do the
9 construction. I think that you could still ask
10 for just the mere right to drive your car and
11 walk your feet across somebody else's dirt to
12 get to your subject property.
13 MR. JOOST: Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: We're on the bill as
15 amended.
16 Please open the ballot.
17 (Committee ballot opened.)
18 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
20 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
25 the vote.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
178
1 (Committee ballot closed.)
2 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
4 approved 2005-1228.
5 Mr. Harden, thank you for taking this off
6 my agenda.
7 2006-24 is deferred.
8 2006-658 is deferred.
9 Top of page 3. 2008-541 is deferred, -542
10 is deferred, -549 is deferred, -550 is all
11 deferred.
12 Top of page 4. 2008-552.
13 MR. JOOST: We already did it.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: No.
15 Open the public hearing.
16 We have Victor Jackson, followed by
17 Mr. Harden.
18 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Jackson is not going to
19 speak.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Harden.
21 MR. HARDEN: Paul Harden, 501 Riverside
22 Avenue.
23 This is a parcel that was the subject of a
24 land use map amendment some time ago.
25 Councilman Lee asked us to defer it for a period
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
179
1 of time. We've done so. She was here earlier
2 tonight. She has no objection to moving it
3 tonight, but just -- I want to make this very
4 clear for the record because Mr. Hainline got
5 yelled at last week.
6 But she told me her preference is for us to
7 have access on Dunn Avenue and would like for us
8 to try to do that. We will do that.
9 Subsequently, if we're able to obtain it, we'll
10 file a new site plan which would require a
11 modification.
12 But we're moving forward with the
13 application with the current site plan. I told
14 her I would try again to get Dunn Avenue
15 access. We've tried with the DOT once. They
16 didn't grant it because of the accesses on
17 either side. So I will continue to do that.
18 But with that understanding, she has no
19 objection to moving forward tonight.
20 I'll be happy to answer any questions.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Actually, I have a
22 question.
23 I heard from Ms. Lee before she left and
24 she said she did not want to take action on this
25 tonight, but she'd be fine with discharging it
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
180
1 from the floor Tuesday night if you got whatever
2 it was that you guys had talked about getting
3 fixed.
4 MR. HARDEN: That was not my
5 understanding. But certainly if that's what she
6 told you, I'd rather her yell at you than me.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller.
8 MR. HARDEN: So I'd rather yell at Reggie.
9 MS. ELLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 To discharge it from the floor on Tuesday
11 night would require a floor amendment to add the
12 conditions, and I typically recommend against
13 floor amendments on quasi-judicial matters if
14 you don't have a public hearing scheduled on
15 that night, and this is one of those matters
16 where we've closed the public hearings at full
17 council.
18 MR. HARDEN: Can you pass this for a few
19 minutes and I'll see if I can get her on the
20 telephone?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
22 MR. HARDEN: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gaffney, are you fine
24 with holding off on your question? Do you have
25 a question for --
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
181
1 MR. HARDEN: I'm sorry?
2 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I'm just going to say --
3 do you have a question for Mr. Harden now or can
4 you wait until he comes back?
5 DR. GAFFNEY: I'll wait.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Harden, that
7 would be fine.
8 We will continue the public hearing and lay
9 this on the table till Mr. Harden comes back.
10 2008-880 is deferred.
11 -970 we've already done.
12 Top of page 5. -1097. I'm sorry, -1071.
13 We will open that public hearing.
14 Mr. Duggan (pronouncing). I'm sorry,
15 Wyman Duggan.
16 (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)
17 MR. DUGGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 Wyman Duggan, 1301 Riverplace Boulevard,
19 Suite 1500.
20 I will cut to the chase. I have a -- one
21 of the conditions I would like to discuss in
22 some detail. Otherwise, I'm available for
23 questions.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: You're a good man.
25 Seeing no other speakers, we'll close that
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
182
1 public hearing.
2 Sounds like -- the amendment has been moved
3 and seconded. It sounds like we need to hear
4 those amendments, Mr. Crofts.
5 MR. CROFTS: Yes, sir.
6 The amendments are as follows:
7 "The Development shall be subject to the
8 original legal description dated November 19th,
9 2008."
10 Number 2, "The development shall be subject
11 to the original written description dated
12 November 10th, 2008."
13 Number 3, "The development shall be subject
14 to the original site plan dated November 19th,
15 2008."
16 Number 4, "The required transportation
17 improvements shall be made in accordance with
18 the Development Services memorandum dated
19 December 8th, 2008, and the Transportation
20 Planning section of the Planning and Development
21 Department memorandum dated December 3rd, 2008,
22 or as otherwise approved by the Planning and
23 Development Department."
24 Condition number 5, "A 5-foot-wide sidewalk
25 shall be provided along St. Johns Bluff Road
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
183
1 pursuant to the 2010 Comprehensive Plan."
2 Number 6 and finally, "A freestanding sign
3 shall be limited to a monument sign --
4 monument-style sign at a maximum of 75 square
5 feet in area and 12 feet in height."
6 That's it.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Duggan, which of those
8 six did you not like?
9 MR. DUGGAN: Number 6, Mr. Chairman.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
11 MR. DUGGAN: This PUD proposed 120 square
12 feet of signage for this parcel. And just so
13 you know where that came from, the site
14 currently has an IBP zoning district which
15 allows one square foot of signage for each front
16 foot of frontage. This lot is 100 feet wide.
17 It's a platted lot, so we would be entitled
18 today, by right, to do 100 square feet of
19 signage for an industrially-related use,
20 IBP-type use.
21 In addition, my client sought and obtained
22 from the City a closure of the platted but
23 unopened right-of-way immediately to the north.
24 That was a 60-foot right-of-way. They now take
25 title to the southerly 30 feet of that.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
184
1 Combined with 100, they would be entitled
2 under the current zoning to 130 square feet of
3 signage. They propose -- the PUD written
4 description proposes 120. The Planning
5 Department proposes 75.
6 I would submit that 120 is less than what
7 we're going -- than what we could do today by
8 right. However, if there's some middle number
9 that the committee feels more comfortable with,
10 I'm amiable to that as well.
11 Just so you know what we're proposing here
12 is a mixed-use development with a freestanding
13 restaurant and then a little professional office
14 strip center in the back toward the 9A frontage,
15 and we'll have shared signage, which is
16 consistent with the St. Johns Bluff Corridor
17 Study. Shared access, shared signage.
18 But I think 120 feet is not unreasonable.
19 That's my request.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to go back and
21 put the sign up and then come and get your
22 rezoning again?
23 MR. DUGGAN: I beg your pardon?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I said, do you --
25 MR. DUGGAN: Oh, go put it up.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
185
1 Well, I would have to advertise an
2 industrial use, which we don't want to do.
3 MR. JOOST: We'll go 76.
4 MR. DUGGAN: Is that your final offer?
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Duggan, I understand
6 where you're coming from. I guess I understand
7 where the Planning Department is coming from. I
8 don't have a problem with going to 100 because
9 it sounds like your client gets that just off of
10 what he has. The additional is closing of the
11 right-of-way, which, you know, that's gratis for
12 him anyway.
13 I don't have a problem with asking the
14 committee to go to 100. Of course, somebody at
15 the committee can go higher than that, but
16 that's just my suggestion.
17 MR. HOLT: Second that amendment to the
18 amendment.
19 MR. JOOST: I'll second it.
20 (Inaudible discussion.)
21 MR. HOLT: I'll move that.
22 MR. JOOST: Second.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
24 seconded.
25 Planning Department, are you guys having
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
186
1 heartburn over there?
2 MR. KELLY: Yes. Through the Chair, just a
3 little bit.
4 There's a lot of history along the
5 St. Johns Bluff Road corridor. It's one of the
6 corridors -- this section between Beach and
7 Atlantic -- that has been protected from the
8 commercial intrusion over the years going back
9 to Councilmember Tullis.
10 There was a study done. Obviously, the
11 Department issued a study with recommendations
12 which was to preclude that commercial-strip-type
13 of development. And, you know, across the
14 street you have CRO zoning. This is IBP and --
15 surrounded by IBP through a PUD.
16 But essentially you've got multifamily and
17 business, professional offices, which have a
18 more restrictive signage requirement, at least
19 in the CRO portion.
20 What we don't want to see is, again, the
21 commercial strip pattern, and we do want to see
22 a transition in sign areas from the commercial
23 node that is Beach Boulevard and St. Johns Bluff
24 and not skip north and set more precedence for
25 larger signage as you go north along the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
187
1 corridor, further away from the node.
2 So we felt that the 75 square feet really
3 represented and was quite generous, given the
4 uses that we're supporting in this PUD, and that
5 it's really more transitioning from the more
6 intense commercial signage at the node, and that
7 we feel that going to 100 square feet -- all of
8 these are old platted lots, 100 square feet. So
9 if each one of these long, narrow lots develops
10 out, you're going to see, you know, a lot of
11 signage along that corridor, which was not the
12 intent going back over the years. And the
13 Department has kind of held to that stance and
14 recommendation for as long as I've been there.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me just be the devil's
16 advocate. If they put up a sign today, could
17 they put the 100-square-foot sign?
18 MR. KELLY: They could put up a
19 100-square-foot sign and they could put up a
20 sign that's even 55 feet tall by right in the
21 IBP. It has the same zoning requirements for
22 signage as the commercial zoning does on this
23 site.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Could they put that sign up,
25 then come forward with the rezoning? And at
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
188
1 that point, would the Planning Department let
2 them keep the current sign, or would you make
3 them take the sign down and get to the new
4 zoning with the current sign?
5 MR. KELLY: We would further restrict it
6 under the zoning. If it was a PUD, obviously we
7 would condition the signage probably similar
8 to -- exactly to what's proposed today.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: So you would not -- you
10 would make them take down the sign?
11 MR. KELLY: Potentially. If it was a
12 rezoning that was promoting commercial uses and
13 moving away from that commercial node, we would
14 want to see a transition in signage and be
15 consistent with signage that's allowed across
16 the street, which is all zoned CRO and is more
17 restrictive.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Committee, I guess we're
19 finding ourselves in a bit of a quandary. This
20 not being my district, I'm wide open to any
21 suggestions. I threw 100 out there just because
22 I was looking for some sort of compromise, and
23 it sounds like the Planning Department doesn't
24 want to go for the compromise.
25 Let's go and vote the first five amendments
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
189
1 and then we'll come back and go to the second
2 amendment.
3 So if I can get you to withdraw the second
4 amendment.
5 MR. HOLT: Move the first five.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: And you withdraw your
7 second?
8 MR. HOLT: Yes.
9 MR. JOOST: Second.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So we are on the
11 first five amendments.
12 All in favor signify by saying aye.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
17 the first five amendments.
18 Now you want to put your amendment back
19 up?
20 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So you put your
22 100 square feet amendment back up.
23 Do I get a second on that?
24 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. It's been
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
190
1 seconded.
2 Now we are on the second amendment.
3 Did anybody change --
4 Okay. It sounds like somebody came to some
5 kind of compromise.
6 MR. KELLY: Well, I guess, in our view, it
7 deals with illumination also. So I've spoken
8 with the agent for the applicant, and if he's
9 willing, we're willing to go with the increase
10 in the square footage provided it's an
11 externally illuminated sign.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Duggan.
13 MR. DUGGAN: I'm acceptable to that.
14 That's acceptable to me.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I love it when you guys
16 compromise without me getting involved.
17 Will you let the amendment show that --
18 reflect that as a friendly amendment and the
19 second?
20 MR. HOLT: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sounds good.
22 All in favor signify by saying aye.
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
191
1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
2 amended it.
3 And now we want to move the bill as twice
4 amended.
5 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as twice amended.
6 MR. HOLT: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and seconded
8 as twice amended.
9 Ms. Eller, I take it we'll just have it as
10 one amendment?
11 MS. ELLER: (Nods head.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's open the ballot and
13 vote on this thing.
14 (Committee ballot opened.)
15 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
17 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
22 the vote.
23 (Committee ballot closed.)
24 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
192
1 approved 2008-1071.
2 And I do want to thank both sides for
3 coming to some sort of compromise.
4 MR. DUGGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 My thanks to the Planning Department.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: 2009-12 is deferred.
7 2009-29, we will open the public hearing.
8 Mr. Matovina, come on down --
9 (Mr. Matovina approaches the podium.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: -- followed by Shannon
11 Nazworth.
12 MR. MATOVINA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 And I appreciate the opportunity to come
14 back this week.
15 My name is Greg Matovina, 2955 Hartley
16 Road.
17 Would you like me to present now or after
18 the opposition?
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I was going to say, if you
20 want to come back and rebut after the
21 opposition, that is your option.
22 MR. MATOVINA: That would be my
23 preference.
24 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. That works.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
193
1 And does that go with Shannon as well?
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. That would be
3 great. Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Michael Cochran.
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Actually, I'm Doug Myers,
7 sir. I'm counsel for SPAR. Should I go first?
8 Would that be all right? We discussed it with
9 the opposition and would like to proceed.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Doug, we'll let
11 you go first.
12 MR. MYERS: Sure.
13 Doug Myers, 50 North Laura Street, Suite
14 2600, Jacksonville, Florida.
15 We're -- I'm counsel for the Springfield
16 Preservation and Revitalization Council, also
17 known as SPAR.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, I'm sorry. I don't
19 mean to cut you off.
20 MR. MYERS: That's okay.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: John Snyder, which bill are
22 you here to speak to?
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Say what?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Which bill are you here to
25 speak to?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
194
1 MR. MYERS: This one, sir.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Because there's no
3 bill -- there's no bill number on here.
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
6 I'm sorry, Doug. Go ahead.
7 MR. MYERS: Okay. We're here to challenge
8 the approval of ordinance 2009-29, which is a
9 PUD rezoning. We recognize that it's late
10 timing and we -- our client was just informed
11 about this ordinance, and we do apologize for
12 any inconvenience. We know that it throws a
13 whole wrench in the process.
14 But we seek to ensure the consistency with
15 the comp plan -- which has been a theme, I'm
16 sure, that's repeated every week with you all --
17 because we're concerned with equitable
18 distribution of low- to moderate-income housing
19 throughout the community. For reasons below, we
20 do ask for a deferral this evening.
21 I do have some items to pass out.
22 Again, our main concern is inconsistency
23 with the comp plan. The Planning report states
24 that the PUD ordinance is consistent, but we
25 believe that that's incomplete. The ordinance
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
195
1 specifically considers low- to moderate-income
2 housing. So the report should reflect those
3 elements, but it doesn't.
4 Under the housing element, there's two
5 policies of concern. Policy 1.1.1 states the
6 City shall promote an equitable distribution of
7 housing choices throughout the city.
8 And then, more specifically, policy 1.1.5
9 states that the Jacksonville Housing Authority
10 shall continue to implement a fair share housing
11 plan to distribute low- to moderate-income
12 housing throughout the city. One, to lessen the
13 impacts of such housing in any one area; and,
14 two, to give moderate- to low-income residents
15 more choice.
16 So it's a two-prong policy. You want to
17 lessen the burden on neighborhoods, and you also
18 want to lessen the burden on residents who have
19 nowhere else to turn so that they can look for
20 other areas in the community for lower or
21 moderate-income housing.
22 We do agree that housing is very necessary
23 and an important component of the city, but
24 neighborhoods such as Springfield cannot improve
25 unless the policies of the plan are
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
196
1 implemented. And, of course, that's why the
2 policies were put there in the first place.
3 Policy 1.1.5 discuss the Jacksonville
4 Housing Authority plan. We don't know where
5 that plan is. And, again, we are late in the
6 game. We are looking for a deferral so that we
7 can gather more information.
8 Neither the executive assistant or the
9 senior director of the JHA could provide a plan
10 or detailed map of the City's low- to
11 moderate-income housing. We'd argue that that
12 is contrary to the plan.
13 Mr. Kelly, of the zoning division, also
14 could not provide a map of these types of
15 developments. And the map that is provided in
16 your materials does show tax credit complexes,
17 but it's not conclusive, and we need more
18 materials at this time.
19 The consequences of violating the comp plan
20 are probably well known. The most extreme is
21 injunctive relief requiring demolition of
22 construction inconsistent with the comp plan.
23 I'm not sure if that would be the case.
24 May I have one more minute, sir?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: (Nods head.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
197
1 MR. MEYERS: I'm not sure if that would be
2 the case, of course, should this go all the way
3 to a court to decide.
4 But provisions of comp plans are -- undergo
5 strict scrutiny such that no deference shall be
6 given to findings in the report. So the fact
7 that the Planning Commission or the Planning
8 Department determined that the proposed PUD was
9 consistent with the plan is irrelevant.
10 If the PUD is not consistent with the comp
11 plan, then demolition could be required. That
12 case is Pine Crest Lakes, Incorporated,
13 versus -- I believe it's Shidel (phonetic),
14 795 So.2d 191. It's in your materials.
15 Because of this, we do ask for a deferral
16 to obtain necessary information concerning
17 consistency with the comp plan, or at the very
18 least, to make comment about the services that
19 will be provided under the proposed PUD.
20 And there are members of the community that
21 will fill in with their personal comments
22 regarding this proposed plan.
23 Thank you for your time. Available for
24 questions.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
198
1 Michael Cochran.
2 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. I'm Mike Cochran.
4 I live at 2050 North Market Street.
5 I'm a Jacksonville native. I've lived in a
6 lot of different areas of Jacksonville, and I
7 became aware of this housing project about a
8 year ago. I worked for a number of different
9 agencies in town. I know the need for housing
10 for low-income families, and the substantial
11 need, especially today with the market that's
12 happened recently.
13 When I first became aware of the project, I
14 was -- know the neighborhood well. I went by
15 there and looked at the neighborhood. And I
16 believe this project is -- you know, it fits the
17 neighborhood, it blends into the neighborhood.
18 It think it will positively impact the
19 neighborhood. And I think it will positively
20 impact my neighborhood, even though my
21 neighborhood that I moved into recently is not
22 this same neighborhood. I live in Springfield.
23 This property is a neighborhood adjacent to
24 Springfield.
25 But I have no doubt there's a number of
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
199
1 people in Springfield that are at risk for -- a
2 number of families -- a number of families with
3 children that are at risk for being homeless.
4 I'd rather see a project like this move forward
5 and have those families -- and those families
6 and those children have a place to live rather
7 than them living in a car outside my house.
8 As a -- I really have a difficult time --
9 and the reason I'm here tonight is because I've
10 heard there's a lot of my neighbors that do
11 oppose this project for reasons that I'm not
12 sure of, and I would just have a real difficult
13 time in these times knowing the increase -- how
14 many people have lost their homes, how many
15 people that are at risk of losing their home,
16 how many people in our own community, how many
17 children have become homeless. I have a hard
18 time seeing anyone oppose this type of project.
19 I'd have a hard time opposing this project if it
20 was next door to me.
21 Fortunately, it's not next door to me. I
22 don't have to make that decision. It's in a
23 neighborhood that I think blends in with other
24 type of housing in the neighborhood. I think
25 it's in a neighborhood that will -- that will
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
200
1 see improvement from this type of housing, so I
2 just wanted to speak in support of that.
3 Thank you for your time.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, I've got a quick
5 question for you.
6 MR. COCHRAN: Yes.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: So you do live inside of
8 Springfield?
9 MR. COCHRAN: Yes. 2050 North Market
10 Street.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
12 MR. COCHRAN: Sure.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Looks like Claire Moulton.
14 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Claude. I'm sorry.
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Close enough.
17 Good evening.
18 My name is Claude Moulton. I live at 2014
19 North Laura Street, which is in Springfield.
20 I'm here as the president of the
21 Springfield Preservation and Revitalization
22 Council, SPAR.
23 Ms. Nazworth, who is the applicant here or
24 represents the applicant, was kind enough to
25 attend one of our recent board meetings and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
201
1 answered questions regarding the project.
2 We have since polled our board as to
3 whether we should oppose this project. And I
4 want to report to you that we, as a board,
5 unanimously oppose it. And I would add, in many
6 cases, vigorously oppose it.
7 And we are sorry that this has taken -- our
8 opposition has come so late, but this went
9 through your committee earlier without notice to
10 us, and we had -- we have had only a late
11 opportunity to respond at all.
12 And as the attorney said, we would like
13 time to be able to present a case with more
14 detail as to why this does not -- this proposed
15 project does not fit within the comprehensive
16 plan.
17 And I thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
19 JoAnn Tredennick.
20 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
22 My name is JoAnn Tredennick. I live at
23 1206 Hubbard Street, which is in historic
24 Springfield.
25 I think I'll open my comments in opposition
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
202
1 to this project by citing a statistic actually
2 that Shannon provided at a meeting in the
3 community, that 15 to 25 percent of the
4 low-income rental housing in Jacksonville is
5 currently vacant, so the argument that there's
6 no low-income housing is questionable.
7 I would like to point out that in this area
8 of the city where I live, there's already an
9 abundance of opportunities for facilities
10 serving the homeless, for low-income rentals,
11 for special-needs housing.
12 One neighborhood cannot survive a constant
13 imposition of this sort of housing upon that one
14 neighborhood when you've got the entire Duval
15 County available. We're trying, the City is
16 trying, the City has spent millions of dollars
17 to revitalize infrastructure on the Main Street
18 and 8th Street corridors, other infrastructure
19 projects.
20 Private individuals have spent many, many
21 more millions of dollars to try to bring this
22 community back, and we have to have enough
23 variety of housing opportunities in our
24 community to support retail and commercial
25 services for our residents.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
203
1 And I find that what happens in these
2 situations, people look at us and say, well, you
3 don't want this in your backyard or you're
4 trying to discriminate. And I would like to
5 describe the area around my home, which is at
6 the intersection of 2nd and Hubbard Street.
7 Within one block north and one block south,
8 there are several single-family homes, some
9 owner-occupied, some rented, a few vacant.
10 I have one -- we have one Alcoholics
11 Anonymous meeting house, one AA halfway house
12 that houses 35 residents, one AA three-quarter
13 house that houses three women and three men, one
14 rooming house that has generally two to four
15 tenants.
16 And directly across the street from me is a
17 low -- is a single-family home that's used as
18 low-income housing, has three families or
19 tenants in there, two of whom are mentally
20 disabled.
21 My husband's office is at 4th and Laura.
22 And within one block of his office, a CPA firm
23 that employs generally about 15 employees, there
24 is a detox facility that houses between 18 to
25 20 residents.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
204
1 So I would implore you to consider the
2 level of these sort of the projects that we
3 already have in our own neighborhood, existing
4 peacefully I will say. But we can't deal with
5 more. I mean, we've got to have some people
6 with income to support revitalizing a
7 community.
8 So please consider the inclusive
9 neighborhood that we already have when you're
10 looking at the need for this project next to our
11 neighborhood.
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
14 Tab Collins.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hello.
17 My name is Tabitha Collins. I live at 1536
18 North Laura.
19 I'm a resident of Springfield. I have a
20 lot at stake with this project, not just because
21 I live nearby, but also because my company is
22 providing construction management services for
23 Ability Housing for this project, and also our
24 offices are actually even nearer still than my
25 house to Ability Housing.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
205
1 The project, first of all, in the most
2 immediate future is going to provide jobs for
3 folks. About 300 subcontracting workers will be
4 on site for about a year. And in a bad economy,
5 that's a lot we can hope for.
6 Secondly, that site is an ash field right
7 now and any improvement would be an improvement
8 over a hazardous toxic site. And what Ability
9 Housing is doing is something that's going to be
10 a positive for the surrounding area, and the
11 reason I know this is because I'm originally
12 from Atlanta. And I've seen this kind of
13 housing work, and it works a lot better than
14 some of the housing that was described
15 previously. In fact, I brought you some
16 pictures.
17 If you wouldn't mind putting these on the
18 overhead.
19 These are some of the projects that are in
20 Atlanta. I lived there for 27 years. I'm 41
21 years old now, and these are projects that were
22 in and around my neighborhood as a kid.
23 They're pretty nice, aren't they? And
24 that's what Ability Housing is trying to do
25 now. They're trying to provide some really nice
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
206
1 housing on a site that is basically a toxic site
2 currently.
3 It seems like the neighbors would be pretty
4 happy to have something like this.
5 And lastly -- and this is probably the most
6 important thing. I know that my neighbors
7 are -- a few of them are in opposition to this
8 proposal, this housing, apartment complex, and I
9 understand why. I know that they feel like
10 they're inundated and I know they feel like they
11 don't want it in their own backyard.
12 But the fact is that we have a problem and
13 it's in our own backyard, and Ability Housing is
14 trying to provide a creative, positive approach
15 to dealing with that problem so that we can
16 expand our neighborhood and we can grow retail
17 and we can do other positive things in our
18 neighborhood, and that is why I'm supporting it
19 and I hope you will too.
20 Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Where in Atlanta did you
22 live?
23 MS. COLLINS: Actually, all over.
24 Marietta, Decatur. When you live there for
25 27 years, you travel around a lot. Right now my
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
207
1 parents live in Walton County.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Where was this housing in
3 Atlanta?
4 MS. COLLINS: Most of this is in -- within
5 the city limits. And, actually, the picture are
6 labeled on the back so you know exactly where
7 they are.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
9 MS. COLLINS: You're welcome.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: John Snyder.
11 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is John Snyder.
13 I live at 1820 North Market Street, and I do
14 live in historic Springfield.
15 And I'd like to start out my comments by
16 saying I find it very interesting that
17 Ms. Collins would come down here tonight and
18 argue for this project. Of course, I guess the
19 fact that her company is going to build the
20 project doesn't have anything to do with that.
21 In fact, this is the first night that I've
22 ever seen Ms. Collins attend anything that had
23 anything to do with Springfield. Enough said
24 about that.
25 This community is a very special
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
208
1 community. I'm 64 years old. I've lived in
2 Beverly Hills, I've lived in Palos Verdes, I've
3 lived in gate-guarded communities. I have never
4 lived in a community better than this. It's a
5 lot better today than it was four years ago when
6 my wife and I first moved here. I have never
7 seen people so dedicated to a community like the
8 jewel that we have here in Springfield.
9 Houses that have been built in the early
10 1900s, once they're gone, they can never be
11 replaced. They would have been gone if it
12 hadn't been for the people that are here tonight
13 that have fought to bring this community back.
14 This community was a toxic dump site for
15 the city of Jacksonville for years and years and
16 years. We decided to take it back. We're not
17 going to put up with it anymore.
18 The ordinances and the statutes are clear.
19 The low-income housing has to be equally
20 distributed over the county of Duval County --
21 over Duval County, not putting it all in
22 Springfield.
23 As Ms. Tredennick said, we have more than
24 enough here right now. We can't tolerate
25 anymore. We --
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
209
1 I've met some of the best people that I've
2 ever met in my life that live here, that have
3 all come here with the same idea, to make
4 Springfield a wonderful place for our families
5 to live.
6 I'm not against low-income housing. I
7 think everybody ought to have an opportunity.
8 I grew up as a lower -- probably a lower
9 income. My father worked for the government for
10 years, so I understand it. But not here, no
11 more, not now.
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
14 Lisa Simon.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. I'm Lisa Simon, 1344
17 Silver Street, historic Springfield.
18 First, I would like to say no one here is
19 against low-income housing. As a realtor, I
20 will tell you that we have an abundance of
21 housing right now, including low-income housing,
22 that is sitting empty, waiting for someone to
23 move in. There are people giving away rentals
24 right now.
25 We're not saying that it's not a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
210
1 good-looking building. Our problem is that our
2 small area is overburdened with the majority of
3 these uses in the whole city. Springfield,
4 downtown, and the surrounding urban core
5 neighborhoods have been overburdened with an
6 overabundance of these uses due to poor planning
7 and policy for years.
8 It's been stated by the applicant, along
9 with other social service providers, that the
10 urban core is the ideal location because of its
11 close proximity to public transportation.
12 I don't understand this argument because it
13 seems like the housing should be located closer
14 to entry-level jobs, somewhere there's an
15 abundance of jobs, shopping, where people don't
16 need to rely on the public transportation to get
17 them everywhere they need to go.
18 It was also stated by Ms. Nazworth in a
19 meeting that we had that they determined this
20 site because of the surrounding schools that
21 were located there. And I would say that the
22 surrounding schools are Stanton College Prep,
23 Darnell Cookman, and Lavilla School of the Arts,
24 which are all dedicated magnets and require the
25 attendance of the feeder schools to attend those
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
211
1 schools, and children living in this unit will
2 not be able to attend those schools.
3 Let's see. The close proximity -- I got
4 that, close proximity of schools.
5 Also, Ms. Collins stated that this site was
6 an ash site, which I can't understand how
7 they're building on an ash site at all. That's
8 the first it's been -- that I've heard of that,
9 that this is an ash site. So let's put the
10 poor, low-income housing people on top of an ash
11 site.
12 I would just say that I am against this.
13 It goes against the 2010 Comprehensive Plan.
14 Springfield and downtown has its share. If
15 anyone looks at downtown and what's going on
16 downtown, it's a failure. We need to fix it,
17 but we need to quick fix it in the same small
18 area.
19 Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
21 Bruce Fletcher.
22 (Mr. Fletcher approaches the podium.)
23 MR. FLETCHER: Mr. Chairman, thank you.
24 Bruce Fletcher, 50 North Laura Street. I'm
25 here opposing this application.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
212
1 We just wanted to reiterate very quickly
2 that the comp plan requires disbursal of these
3 type housing arrangements throughout the city,
4 and we believe that the evidence you've heard
5 here tonight and the evidence that you may know
6 from your time in the community shows that they
7 are being clustered in Springfield. Adding
8 another one contradicts your own comprehensive
9 plan.
10 At a minimum, we would seek that you defer
11 this, if not outright deny it. A deferral would
12 give a chance for the parties to meet and see if
13 some sort of a compromise could be reached.
14 But we, again, would urge deferral of this
15 item.
16 Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
18 Mr. Matovina or Ms. Nazworth, whichever who
19 wants to go first.
20 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
22 Shannon Nazworth, 126 West Adams Street,
23 Number 502.
24 There's a couple of items I want to talk
25 about. We have met with the SPAR
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
213
1 representatives several times, both when they
2 first asked that it be deferred back in February
3 at the council meeting, and we didn't object to
4 that. We didn't -- we wanted them to have the
5 opportunity to learn more about the project,
6 hoping that they would embrace it, recognizing
7 that we're turning a blighted site into very
8 high quality housing. We've been very insistent
9 throughout the entire design process that it be
10 a very high-quality, neighborhood-improving-type
11 of development.
12 I also want to talk about the comp plan in
13 that there is affordable housing dispersed
14 throughout Jacksonville, and this site was
15 specifically picked because we really do believe
16 it's going to be beneficial for the individuals
17 who want to serve.
18 It's very near the downtown campus of
19 FCCJ. It's on major transportation. It's right
20 near the transportation hub. We know in
21 Jacksonville getting around on JTA is very
22 difficult unless you're near that hub. I've
23 tried it in the past, trying to get around the
24 outliers, and it takes an awful long time. It's
25 near employment opportunities with Shands and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
214
1 the like nearby.
2 Also, I want to talk about the vacant units
3 that they're referring to. Yes, we have a
4 vacancy issue at apartments that are far more
5 expensive than what we're proposing here. This
6 is housing that is intended to help people
7 transition from being at risk of homelessness to
8 being able to afford those vacant units. We're
9 talking about units that are 556, 650 for
10 two-bedroom apartments at minimum.
11 So the individuals we're planning to serve
12 here could not afford those kinds of units, so
13 they don't have any options.
14 In addition to which the housing commission
15 over the past two years with their strategic
16 planning has identified housing for this
17 population as one of the top priorities, one of
18 their top two priorities both years, so it is a
19 desperate need within the community.
20 And I just appreciate Dr. Gaffney bringing
21 us together. We did try to see if we could come
22 up with a middle ground, and it really -- the
23 Springfield residents were just -- the only
24 thing they wanted was 100 percent no. And we
25 couldn't find a middle ground with them,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
215
1 so . . .
2 Thank you very much.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: I heard about that meeting.
4 Mr. Matovina.
5 (Mr. Matovina approaches the podium.)
6 MR. MATOVINA: Greg Matovina, 2955 Hartley
7 Road.
8 I'm not sure if there's a project like this
9 in Jacksonville right now, first of all. So to
10 say that it needs to go in another district, I'm
11 not sure where you would find that in
12 Springfield.
13 This is not a flop house, this is not a
14 rooming house, this is not a place for several
15 families to live. These are apartments and they
16 are going to be very nice apartments.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Looks like a box of eight
18 crayons. Very colorful.
19 MR. MATOVINA: Well, thank you.
20 I think that was a compliment, wasn't it,
21 Mr. Chairman?
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
23 MR. MATOVINA: The fact of the matter is
24 that this community is not located in
25 Springfield. It's a quarter of a mile from
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
216
1 their boundary as it's published on their
2 Web site currently. But it's a long way from
3 the heart of Springfield. It's a long way.
4 This site is located next to I-95, just
5 north of State Street. Its southern boundary is
6 the ARC office building. Across Davis Street is
7 the State office building. To the north is some
8 additional vacant and blighted property. And to
9 the northeast, catercorner from us is the --
10 what remains of the old Blodgett homes. That's
11 where this property sits.
12 If you stand on this property, it's pretty
13 noisy. There's a lot of cars driving by on
14 I-95. It's a lot worse than that house over
15 there on Hendricks Avenue.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's not go there.
17 MR. MATOVINA: Okay. So the location is
18 perfect for this project.
19 We did meet with SPAR. They wanted us to
20 move --
21 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
22 MR. MATOVINA: Sorry, Mr. Harden.
23 They wanted us to move this project to
24 Arlington is where they wanted us to move this
25 project.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
217
1 So the project itself has 48 apartment
2 units, two and three bedrooms. They're designed
3 for families and families with children. Each
4 one has its own kitchen. There's no common
5 kitchen facility. The facilities and services
6 that will be provided will be for residents
7 only.
8 This will not be a Sulzbacher Center or
9 Trinity Rescue Mission where there will be
10 temporary stays. Residents will sign low-term
11 leases, just like they do in the low-income
12 apartments up on Kernan. And we have low-income
13 apartments, I believe, down in Mandarin, also
14 over on the Westside.
15 We talked about public transportation,
16 services being provided to the residents and the
17 common facilities. There will be on-site
18 security and management.
19 I guess, in conclusion, the objective of
20 Ability Housing is to provide housing for people
21 who otherwise can't afford it. And when we look
22 at this project, we look at this as an
23 opportunity to be Good Samaritans. We look at
24 this as an opportunity to not turn our head and
25 look the other way, but to provide for people
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
218
1 just like we're providing for them in Councilman
2 Redman's district, we're building a homeless
3 shelter there for teenagers.
4 So thank you for your time and your
5 attention, and I'll answer any questions you may
6 have.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Greg, I've got a quick
8 question for you.
9 Somebody said earlier about not knowing
10 about this project. I see, looking at the
11 application, that you did post a rezoning sign.
12 Was that visible from the street?
13 MR. MATOVINA: Yes. The site is basically
14 mowed and vacant. So, yes, it was visible from
15 the street.
16 And, actually, they've known about this
17 project since the 24th because that was when it
18 was deferred at council, the time frame.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm just trying to put
20 something on the record.
21 MR. MATOVINA: Okay. Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
23 Hold on. Let me --
24 Seeing there's no further speakers, I will
25 close the public hearing.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
219
1 Mr. Joost has got a question for you, Greg.
2 MR. JOOST: Through the Chair, thank you
3 for coming down.
4 In the lease in these apartments, are they
5 going to be part of the crime-free initiative?
6 MR. MATOVINA: That's correct.
7 MR. JOOST: Okay. Through legal, I've got
8 a couple of questions. There's an assertion
9 that this is an ash site. Is that true?
10 MS. ELLER: I'll defer to the Planning
11 Department who has a map of the ash site. If it
12 is a part of it, then a prerequisite to the
13 construction is the cleanup. That's a
14 prerequisite to any additional permit that's
15 provided.
16 MR. MATOVINA: Could I address that,
17 Mr. Chairman?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
19 MR. MATOVINA: It is a part of the ash site
20 and it is scheduled as part of the City's
21 cleanup process to be cleaned up.
22 MR. JOOST: That was my next question.
23 Was that one of the sites we've scheduled
24 to clean up?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: The answer to the question
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
220
1 is yes.
2 MR. JOOST: Okay. Very good then.
3 Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have an
5 amendment. Can I get a motion for the
6 amendment?
7 MR. HOLT: Move the amendment.
8 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment has been moved
10 and seconded.
11 Can we hear the amendment, please.
12 MR. CROFTS: Yes, sir, members of the
13 committee as well.
14 The conditions are as follows,.
15 "The development shall be subject to the
16 original legal description dated December 4th,
17 2008."
18 Number 2, "The development shall be subject
19 to the original written description dated
20 December 4th, 2008."
21 Thirdly, "The development shall be subject
22 to the original site plan dated December 4th,
23 2008."
24 Fourth and finally, "The development shall
25 be subject to the review and approval of the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
221
1 Development Services Division memorandum dated
2 January 13, 2009, or as otherwise approved by
3 the Planning and Development Department."
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Matovina, are you okay
5 with those amendments as read?
6 MR. MATOVINA: Yes, we are, Mr. Chairman.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the
8 amendment signify by saying aye.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
13 approved the amendment.
14 MR. HOLT: Move the bill as amended.
15 MR. JOOST: Second.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
17 seconded as amended.
18 Any discussion on the bill?
19 Mr. Joost.
20 MR. JOOST: Going back to the crime free --
21 I'm not sure if that's the right terminology.
22 Should we make that a condition?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Eller.
24 MS. NAZWORTH: We plan to do that, so it's
25 not a problem.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
222
1 MR. JOOST: If we don't make it a
2 condition, what -- what if they have -- later on
3 they could take that out of the lease should the
4 property be turned over to the new owner down
5 the road; is that correct?
6 MS. ELLER: I'll defer to the applicant
7 regarding the placement of the crime-free
8 obligation and where it is placed, and then we
9 can determine if it's more appropriate as a
10 condition of the zoning so that way it can
11 remain in place.
12 Can you-all explain where that obligation
13 is in your process?
14 MS. NAZWORTH: Ability Housing, as a matter
15 of course, participates in crime-free
16 multihousing in all its multifamily properties.
17 We're already doing that in the one that we
18 already have in operation.
19 We're not opposed to it. I don't know if
20 it's -- you know, I'm not a zoning expert. I
21 don't know if that's an appropriate thing to put
22 in zoning. But as the owner has no intent of
23 ever selling it and always wanting to maintain a
24 crime-free property and assist in the
25 Jacksonville Journey work, we have no problem
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
223
1 with that.
2 MR. JOOST: And you put it in the lease?
3 MS. NAZWORTH: Yes, it is -- as part of
4 crime free, it would have to be in the lease.
5 MR. JOOST: I mean, let me ask you this.
6 Is this the proper place to make that type of
7 amendment?
8 MS. ELLER: It's up to the committee. If
9 you want to put that as a condition, if you add
10 a condition to a PUD, then it's enforced through
11 the zoning code. So if it was ever -- if they
12 ever took it out of the lease or if they ever
13 didn't comply with those requirements, then they
14 would be subject to a citation issued by our
15 municipal code compliance officers for failure
16 to comply with the PUD.
17 So it's really up to the committee of
18 whether or not you feel comfortable with the
19 representation that they've made and whether or
20 not you feel like the crime-free initiative can
21 be properly achieved through the lease and the
22 statements that have been made by the applicant,
23 or if you want to have it rise to the level of
24 being enforceable through the zoning code by
25 having it a condition of the PUD.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
224
1 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words --
2 MR. JOOST: I believe their intent, but I
3 would like to make an amendment. Trust but
4 verify.
5 So I'll move that amendment.
6 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
7 MR. JOOST: They've said they've already
8 put the crime-free initiative in their lease and
9 my concern is that -- you know, 10 or 20 years
10 down the road, you know, owners and intent
11 changes over time. So that eventually, you
12 know, could be phased out of the leases as they
13 get renewed, you know, long term. So by doing
14 this, we ensure that their intent remains intact
15 for the long term by codifying it.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Could you -- could you
17 explain very briefly what the crime-free
18 initiative is so the rest of the committee is up
19 to where Mr. Joost is.
20 MS. NAZWORTH: Sure. Crime-free
21 multihousing is something that JSO implemented a
22 few years ago before the Jacksonville Journey
23 started, and they've been getting a lot of input
24 from a lot of properties.
25 It's a national model that basically sets
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
225
1 some criteria for the environmental design to
2 make sure that it's designed to be, you know,
3 crime preventive. And then there's lease
4 amendments that you have to have, that if a
5 resident or a guest of a resident performs an
6 illegal activity on the site, that that is
7 grounds for eviction.
8 And why that's really necessary, where most
9 landlords would like to evict anyway, as many
10 probably know, it's difficult getting through
11 the courts for evicting for any purpose other
12 than nonpayment of rent. And this lease
13 addendum and participation in a crime-free
14 program is recognized by the courts as an
15 evictable occurrence, so it gives the landlord
16 more authority.
17 It also involves training of the property
18 manager and the owner with regards to the whole
19 process and that type of thing.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Sounds good.
21 Did I get a second for Mr. Joost's
22 amendment?
23 MR. HOLT: I'll second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
25 seconded.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
226
1 Okay. Mr. Holt.
2 MR. HOLT: I know a little bit about the
3 crime free, but I'm not terribly familiar with
4 it. And there are -- some of the
5 recommendations are like dead bolt locks and
6 certain types of windows and certain types of
7 landscaping and things like that. I don't know
8 to what extent we want to put all those
9 requirements in the PUD. I mean, there are
10 probably a lot of recommendations through
11 crime-free housing.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: I think if you sign up for
13 being crime free, it all comes.
14 MR. HOLT: Okay. So there's a
15 certification.
16 MS. NAZWORTH: I think the only -- I'll be
17 honest. My only question is if crime free
18 changes in 20 years or JSO does away with it and
19 you can't participate, we'll be in violation of
20 our zoning.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: That's a question for
22 Ms. Eller.
23 We can just say crime free as it currently
24 exists.
25 MS. ELLER: That's up to the committee.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
227
1 I mean, you can say you participate in the
2 crime-free multifamily housing program and its
3 requirements as they exist on the date of this
4 adoption. And if they -- if the change is over
5 time, it wouldn't be an ongoing requirement.
6 If for some reason they decide to change
7 the lighting requirement or change the height of
8 the hedges based upon new data, they won't have
9 to continue to go back and make those changes.
10 MR. HOLT: So is there some sort of a
11 certification that you can say that we have
12 definitely complied?
13 MS. NAZWORTH: Yeah. JSO goes through the
14 process and will give us the environmental
15 assessment, which includes the bolts and the
16 dead locks and all of that kind of stuff.
17 That's part of that environmental assessment.
18 MR. HOLT: I can definitely support that.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We're on the Joost
20 amendment.
21 Mr. Gaffney, are you on the Joost
22 amendment?
23 DR. GAFFNEY: I'll wait.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. All in favor of the
25 Joost amendment signify by saying aye.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
228
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
5 approved the Joost amendment.
6 Now, we have the -- we have the bill as
7 twice amended. We'll incorporate it as one.
8 Dr. Gaffney.
9 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 Yes. I just want to express my sentiments
11 in reference to this bill. I was hoping that
12 the parties can come to some type of amicable
13 resolution.
14 I'm struggling with my decision this
15 evening because I know the residents in
16 Springfield, they've worked very diligently,
17 very diligently, and I understand their mission
18 and their vision statements, and so I understand
19 both parties.
20 So I just -- I'm not saying which way I'm
21 voting or whatever I'm going to do because of
22 quasi-judicial legislation, but I just would
23 hope that we consider -- take into consideration
24 both parties, both parties and listen to all the
25 evidence that is presented before us and just
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
229
1 try to make what's best based on the evidence.
2 Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Dr. Gaffney.
4 Mr. Holt.
5 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
6 I just wanted to say that I've been sitting
7 here looking at this map here of the Springfield
8 area. And, I mean, this is so far removed from
9 the Springfield area. I would think that the
10 people in Springfield would be happy about this
11 because it would probably draw quite a few of
12 the clients of the current facilities in
13 Springfield out of Springfield.
14 So I just think that most folks would take
15 comfort in the fact that this facility is out of
16 Springfield, and I think it's a great project
17 and I look forward to supporting it.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
19 We're on the bill as amended.
20 Please open the ballot.
21 (Committee ballot opened.)
22 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
230
1 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
2 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes nay.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
4 the vote.
5 (Committee ballot closed.)
6 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, one nay.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
8 approved 2009-29.
9 MR. MATOVINA: Thank you.
10 MR. HARDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harden, are you ready to
12 roll, or are you still trying to get ahold of
13 Ms. Lee?
14 MR. HARDEN: I know it's hard to believe,
15 but I can't get her on the telephone. May I
16 make a suggestion in light of -- may I?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah.
18 MR. HARDEN: In light of Shannon's
19 comments, perhaps you could amend the bill
20 tonight to add the conditions on so that if it's
21 discharged, you don't have a floor amendment to
22 do those conditions.
23 MS. ELLER: (Inaudible.)
24 MR. HARDEN: Pardon me?
25 MS. ELLER: My apologies.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
231
1 If it doesn't come out of committee, then
2 there still has to be a floor amendment, if it's
3 not voted out of committee. If the LUZ votes an
4 amendment and it doesn't pass the bill, it's
5 still in committee. So to consider an amendment
6 on the floor at council, you still have to do a
7 floor amendment.
8 MR. HARDEN: But there's -- but the --
9 anybody who would be here to object to the
10 conditions could -- they could have done it
11 here.
12 MS. ELLER: It would be more comfortable --
13 it would be a better posture to be in to do the
14 floor amendment after the committee had already
15 considered the amendment. I concur with
16 Mr. Harden's statement.
17 MR. HARDEN: So I would respectfully
18 request that we -- if you add the conditions on,
19 that Mr. Crofts doesn't need to read them into
20 the record. They were done by the Planning
21 Commission. They were almost the same as the
22 Planning Department's amendments, and we have no
23 objection to those amendments.
24 Let me also say this: In light of the fact
25 that it's not coming out, Mr. Jackson probably
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
232
1 wants to talk now. He's one of the people who
2 owns the piece we're buying. He's been coming
3 for multiple weeks.
4 So I would request that you adopt the
5 conditions, even though it's still in committee
6 so that that was done in committee in a public
7 forum where someone could have objected if they
8 wanted to.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, let's take this
10 back off the table. We're still in public
11 comment because we continued the public
12 comment. We're on top of page 4, 2008-552.
13 So we will close the public comment.
14 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Jackson probably wants to
15 speak.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jackson, would you like
17 to speak?
18 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
19 MR. HARDEN: Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: We will reopen public
21 comment.
22 Mr. Jackson, after you speak, if I can get
23 you to fill out one of the blue speaker cards,
24 I'd appreciate it.
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I already filled out one.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
233
1 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't have it.
2 If we can get you to fill out another one
3 after you're done.
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: No problem.
5 My name is Victor Jackson. I live at 11601
6 Rainbow Springs Court, and I'm here asking for
7 your support in amendment 2008-552.
8 I've been trying to avoid coming up here
9 and speaking. I've been here since this here
10 amendment first went to the Planning Department
11 at the old City Hall all the way through the
12 process at this committee here. I tried to
13 communicate to the council by phone calls. Some
14 was returned, some was not.
15 I tried communicating through e-mail. Some
16 of those were returned and some of those were
17 not.
18 And I guess it was God speaking to me
19 telling me I need to come speak by my voice
20 instead of speaking by information technology
21 that's out there now.
22 I ask for your support on this bill
23 because, one, 99.9 percent of Dunn Avenue
24 between 95 and Biscayne is commercial. And if
25 you go between 95 and Lem Turner, 95.9 percent
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
234
1 is zoned commercial.
2 And, you know, I understand that, you know,
3 when bills come before this committee that they
4 have to be heard by the committee as well as the
5 public, and I would never support a bill where
6 the public don't have their due process.
7 But my concern is that this bill has been
8 on the table for an awful long time. And I sat
9 in the background and haven't came up here and
10 spoke because there was no opposition against
11 it, but in the process of that, this bill has
12 still been deferred, rereferred, and delayed.
13 And, you know, I understand there's some
14 legalities that need to be worked out in this
15 process, but my concern is, you know, the
16 legalities being stretched out as long as
17 they've been stretched out and getting to the
18 bottom of the issue on voting on this issue.
19 I thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
21 Seeing no further speakers, we will close
22 that public hearing.
23 Mr. Jackson, we have a question for you
24 from Dr. Gaffney.
25 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
235
1 Yes, Mr. Jackson. Just a couple of
2 questions. How long have you lived over there?
3 MR. JACKSON: Since '95.
4 DR. GAFFNEY: Since '95.
5 Do you-all have an association?
6 MR. JACKSON: No, no homeowners
7 association. As a matter of fact, when I moved
8 on the property, the street across from me was
9 residential. And what they did was they rezoned
10 that to build an Eckerd's Drugs there. And once
11 they rezoned it and built an Eckerd's Drugs,
12 later on down the line, that CVS later on
13 purchased Eckerd's Drugs, and that's when it
14 became a CVS.
15 But even at the beginning between
16 Briarcliff and Dunn is a day care there.
17 DR. GAFFNEY: The day care is vacant, isn't
18 it?
19 MR. JACKSON: One of them is vacant and the
20 other one is occupied.
21 DR. GAFFNEY: So you have spoken with the
22 individuals in the community?
23 MR. JACKSON: I've spoken to the
24 individuals on the parcels between the day care
25 and my property and the one on the back side,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
236
1 which is Wake Forest.
2 DR. GAFFNEY: No further questions.
3 Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on, sir. There's
5 another question for you.
6 Mr. Joost.
7 MR. JOOST: Did anybody -- thank you for
8 coming down.
9 Did any of these people express opposition
10 or what was the conclusion of your discussions?
11 MR. JACKSON: Well, everybody that I spoke
12 to had no problem with it, the ones that I spoke
13 to.
14 Also, if I may mention, when I went to the
15 Planning Department at the City Hall Annex
16 building when it first was brought to the
17 Planning Department, we had one person to fill
18 out a speaker card and he got up and spoke, but
19 his only question to the situation was he wanted
20 to know how was the lighting was going to be
21 constructed. And once the commercial company
22 met those criteria and talked to him concerning
23 those criteria, he didn't have a problem with it
24 as it was on the record when he spoke at the
25 Planning Department.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
237
1 MR. JOOST: I mean, Mr. Chairman, I'd
2 pretty much take his word at it, seeing there's
3 nobody here in opposition tonight.
4 Thank you.
5 MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
7 Hold on, sir.
8 All right. Sorry. He doesn't have a
9 question for you.
10 MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you.
11 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I had a
12 question for the applicant.
13 Mr. Harden, are you back there?
14 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
15 MR. HOLT: Is this both of the properties
16 on Dunn Avenue, between Wake Forest and
17 Briarcliff?
18 MR. HARDEN: It's the frontage on
19 Dunn Avenue, between Wake Forest and
20 Briarcliff. It's already commercial general.
21 This -- there are -- we're removing back to
22 the same depth, as Mr. Jackson described, where
23 the CVS is. So it will go -- yeah, it will be
24 access- -- I mean, it will go between Briarcliff
25 and Wake Forest to the same depth as the current
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
238
1 commercial is on the site.
2 The frontage is already zoned commercial.
3 We did a comp plan amendment to -- which has
4 already passed, by the way, for the six or seven
5 lots that are behind it. And so that -- the
6 comp plan amendment has already been changed to
7 a commercial general use. This is a PUD that
8 includes the things that were changed on the
9 comp plan amendment, which include Mr. Jackson's
10 property, and the frontage, which is already in
11 a commercial general use.
12 MR. HOLT: So are you saying that -- if you
13 happen to know the addresses, there's 10745
14 Wake Forest, and then 1202. I guess that's 1202
15 Dunn Avenue.
16 MR. HARDEN: Do you have the map in front
17 of you?
18 MR. HOLT: I'm looking at the GIS.
19 MR. HARDEN: Okay. Councilman Holt, let
20 me -- I can orient it for you.
21 As you're coming down Dunn Avenue, you get
22 to the CVS, and then -- and that's Wake Forest.
23 On the other --
24 MR. HOLT: That's Briarcliff.
25 MR. HARDEN: I mean Briarcliff.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
239
1 And then you've got Wake Forest on the
2 other side. There's two day care centers there
3 on that frontage.
4 If you start -- the front two lots on
5 Briarcliff were already commercial general, so
6 it's the next three lots back.
7 MR. HOLT: Okay.
8 MR. HARDEN: The front lot on Wake Forest
9 was already commercial, so it's the next four
10 back. And so it's a total of, I think, five
11 lots on each side on a depth.
12 MR. HOLT: Oh, okay.
13 MR. HARDEN: But which matches up to the
14 depth of the CVS next door.
15 MR. HOLT: So it's everything on the
16 frontage of Dunn Avenue from Wake Forest to
17 Briarcliff?
18 MR. HARDEN: Yes.
19 MR. HOLT: I don't understand why you're
20 having trouble with the State.
21 MR. HARDEN: No, I haven't had problems
22 with the State.
23 MR. HOLT: Getting the approval for the
24 access on Dunn.
25 MR. HARDEN: Oh, oh, oh. Because there is
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
240
1 an access to the CVS that's within -- that's
2 closer than their requirements would allow for
3 another access.
4 Maybe I'm not clear. They have a -- they
5 have a --
6 MR. KELLY: Driveway separation.
7 MR. HARDEN: Oh, thank you. They have a
8 driveway separation criteria.
9 MR. HOLT: Yeah, they have.
10 MR. HARDEN: And the driveway, if you put
11 it in, in the service station, it's closer than
12 the driveway separation criteria would allow.
13 We applied for it. They didn't want to do
14 it. We have exits out onto Briarcliff and to
15 Wake Forest. But just so you'll know, they
16 match up to the accesses on the CVS side and the
17 accesses on the day care side.
18 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you.
19 MR. HARDEN: So, yeah, it was the DOT
20 didn't let us have an access because of the
21 separation criteria.
22 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you.
23 I just don't like their driveway separation
24 requirements.
25 MR. HARDEN: And, may I, to Councilman
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
241
1 Joost? This has been through the Northside CPAC
2 three times, once on the comp plan amendment
3 adoption -- I mean, transmittal, once on the
4 adoption and once on the PUD. They have
5 unanimously supported it each time I've met
6 with -- I actually went out and did -- when
7 Councilman Lee was opposing the comp plan
8 amendment, I went out and met with the
9 neighbors. And, as Mr. Jackson said, their
10 questions related to making sure the lighting
11 didn't -- and that actually came from somebody
12 who has a commercial use on their property.
13 So we have the criteria that would localize
14 that, and so we'll hopefully be able to deal
15 with Councilwoman Lee before next Tuesday night
16 and resolve it.
17 MR. HOLT: I'd just -- I'd love to see the
18 entrance on Dunn Avenue, and I'd really hate to
19 see people have to drive down Briarcliff to go
20 into it or --
21 MR. HARDEN: Well, they -- yeah.
22 Well, they would turn in and go to a depth
23 not as far as the commercial on either side, but
24 I understand what you're saying.
25 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
242
1 MR. HARDEN: Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Gaffney.
3 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 Yes, Mr. Harden.
5 MR. HARDEN: Yes, sir.
6 DR. GAFFNEY: I just want to express my
7 sentiments and expound on that, just like
8 Councilman Holt. I would hope that we can try
9 to arrange it where it can be off Dunn Avenue.
10 It's possible.
11 Now, I see off Briarcliff there's more
12 commercial there as opposed to Wake Forest. I
13 think there's some homes over there.
14 MR. HARDEN: Right. But if you'll --
15 there's a condition on the PUD that requires our
16 driveway to be at a location across from the
17 commercial and not go back to the depth. That's
18 one of the conditions the Planning Commission
19 and Planning Department had.
20 DR. GAFFNEY: Excellent.
21 MR. HARDEN: On the other side, the CVS
22 side, we're going to match up to their entrance
23 and exit. Really on the other side where the
24 day care is, they have an entrance onto the side
25 street too so we match up to that side street.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
243
1 Our preference is Dunn Avenue, and we
2 applied and they turned us down. So we
3 redesigned using the side streets, but we match
4 up to the accesses for commercial uses on either
5 side of us.
6 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you very much.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Planning Department,
8 let's hear the amendment, the conditions.
9 MR. CROFTS: If you'd like, there are ten
10 conditions, I will read them into the record.
11 I've already passed a copy along to Mr. Harden.
12 He's in agreement with them. So I will follow
13 your wish.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's hear them into the
15 record.
16 MR. CROFTS: Yes, sir.
17 Number 1, "The development shall be subject
18 to the original legal description dated
19 November 19, 2007."
20 Number 2, "The development shall be subject
21 to the original written description dated
22 November 19, 2007."
23 Number 3, "The development shall be subject
24 to the revised site plan dated June 16, 2008."
25 Number 4, "The development shall be subject
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
244
1 to the review and approval of the Development
2 Service Division pursuant to their memorandum
3 dated June 24th; the FDOT, pursuant to their
4 memorandum dated July 15th, 2008; and the
5 Planning and Development Department."
6 Number 5, An 8-foot-high vinyl fence that
7 is 95 percent opaque with one 3-inch dbh tree
8 planted for every 25 feet shall be provided
9 along the southern property line."
10 Number 6, "There shall be one 3-inch dbh
11 planted tree for every 25 feet in addition to
12 providing a 3-foot continuous hedge along the
13 western property line except where to provide
14 access."
15 Number 7, "A left turn onto Wake Forest
16 Avenue shall be prohibited."
17 Number 8, "There shall be one 3-inch dbh
18 tree planted for every 25 feet of frontage space
19 no more than 40 feet on center in addition to
20 providing a 3-foot-high continuous hedge along
21 the western property line except where to
22 provide access."
23 Number 9, "The development shall be allowed
24 one internally- or externally-illuminated
25 monument sign not to exceed 200 square feet in
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
245
1 area and 25 feet in height. Wall signs shall
2 face Dunn Avenue only."
3 Number 10 and finally, "All sag lenses,
4 drop lenses and convex lenses shall be
5 prohibited. Illumination levels at all property
6 lines shall not exceed one-half footcandle when
7 the building or parking area are located
8 adjacent to residential areas and shall not
9 exceed one footcandle when abutting other
10 nonresidential properties. All other lighting,
11 lamp sources within the parking and pedestrian
12 area shall be metal haloid and halide or compact
13 fluorescent.
14 "The maximum light pole height at all
15 parking areas should not exceed 30 feet. An
16 exterior lighting design plan for each project,
17 including a photometric plan, pole and fixture
18 schedule shall be submitted at the time of
19 verification of substantial compliance for
20 review and approval by the Planning and
21 Development Department."
22 That's it.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harden, were you in
24 agreeable [sic] with all those conditions?
25 MR. HARDEN: I am in agreeable.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
246
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I am -- as I said
2 before, I told Ms. Lee that we will defer this
3 bill, but I guess for simplicity, you just want
4 to make sure, since we had a public hearing,
5 that this came out before everybody in the
6 public. So when we do the floor amendment on
7 Tuesday, there's not a condition -- there's not
8 an issue there.
9 Ms. Eller, to be in the best position to
10 discharge this thing Tuesday night, should we
11 reopen the public hearing and continue it or
12 should we keep the public hearing closed?
13 What's the best posture for us to be in?
14 MS. ELLER: The best posture would be if
15 the committee would take up the amendment and
16 vote the bill out.
17 However, if that's not the action of the
18 committee, then the amendments that you read
19 into the record -- I feel more comfortable that
20 it's been put into the public record so that way
21 when it is taken as a floor amendment on Tuesday
22 night, it's not new information that's been
23 provided outside of the public hearing.
24 My suggestion, to finally answer your
25 question, would be to open and continue the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
247
1 public hearing. That way, if for any reason
2 it's not voted out of City Council, we wouldn't
3 have to readvertise.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. That being the case,
5 we will reopen that public hearing and take no
6 further action.
7 MR. HARDEN: Reopen. Okay. Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harden, I guess the
9 question I have to you, my understanding is
10 Ms. Lee wants you to try again to get access to
11 Dunn Avenue? Is that what the question is?
12 MR. HARDEN: She wants us to apply again to
13 FDOT, which we will do. I am -- she said that
14 she'll go talk to them.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: And what -- do you think
16 you're going to get some sort of solution or
17 resolution from FDOT between now and then?
18 MR. HARDEN: No. She doesn't think so
19 either. If we get the FDOT to do it, we'll have
20 to revise the site plan to the PUD, but we can
21 still go ahead and close with all --
22 The eight people on the back have been
23 waiting now for a year and a half for us to
24 close.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: So --
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
248
1 MR. HARDEN: Some of them have made plans.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: -- if we don't get anything
3 from FDOT between now and next Tuesday, what
4 happens?
5 MR. HARDEN: I think she's going to be okay
6 to move forward with it so long as we're moving
7 forth in good faith and trying to do it and
8 resolve it.
9 Again, there are eight sellers who we had
10 contracts with. As you'll recall, the comp plan
11 got delayed, so . . .
12 THE CHAIRMAN: When do the contracts expire
13 that you currently are sitting on?
14 MR. HARDEN: I don't know, I think some of
15 them may have. It may be late, but I don't know
16 that. Some of them have expired, but the people
17 are waiting till we get through this process.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right.
19 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Jackson is one of them.
20 That's why he's been coming diligently for a
21 year.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thanks.
23 Ms. Eller.
24 MS. ELLER: Thank you.
25 To the Chairman, because there's no public
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
249
1 hearing, it won't be on the City Council
2 agenda. So in order for it to be discharged, it
3 would have to be requested to be added to the
4 agenda at some point in the council meeting and
5 then vote it to discharge.
6 MR. HARDEN: I'll make that request to the
7 council president, again, subject to Ms. Lee's
8 thoughts.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Sounds good to me.
10 MR. HARDEN: Unless Ms. Eller wants to call
11 and tell her.
12 MS. ELLER: (Inaudible.)
13 MR. HARDEN: No?
14 Thank you.
15 MS. ELLER: I'll communicate that.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ms. Eller.
17 Okay. Committee members, let's go back to
18 wherever it was we left off. I think the bottom
19 of page --
20 The bottom of page 5, 2009-50. Open the
21 public hearing.
22 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
23 public hearing and take no further action.
24 Top of page 6, 2009-91. Open the public
25 hearing.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
250
1 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
2 public hearing and take no further action.
3 2009-115 we've already done.
4 2009-161. We will open that public
5 hearing.
6 Do we have any speakers for -161?
7 MS. LAHMEUR: No, sir.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no speakers, we will
9 continue that public hearing and take no further
10 action.
11 2009-192. We will open the public hearing.
12 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
13 public hearing and take no further action.
14 Top of page 7. 2009-238 is an appeal, so
15 we'll do that last.
16 2009-249. We will open the public
17 hearing.
18 Charles Mann. I suppose he's here for
19 questions only.
20 (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)
21 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, I take your lead.
22 Charles Mann, 165 Arlington Road,
23 representing the landowner.
24 For questions only.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: You're a good man.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
251
1 Seeing no other speakers, we'll close that
2 public hearing.
3 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
4 MR. HOLT: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment has been moved
6 and seconded.
7 Mr. Mann, do you need to hear the
8 amendment?
9 MR. MANN: No, sir. We covered that in
10 Planning Commission. And as long as it hasn't
11 changed since then, we're comfortable with it.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the --
13 MR. CROFTS: It hasn't changed.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the
15 amendment signify by saying aye.
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
20 approved the amendment.
21 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
22 MR. HOLT: Second.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
24 seconded as amended.
25 Any further discussion on -249?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
252
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
3 ballot.
4 (Committee ballot opened.)
5 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
7 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
12 the vote.
13 (Committee ballot closed.)
14 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
16 approved -249.
17 Thank you, Mr. Mann.
18 MR. MANN: Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: -250. We will open that
20 public hearing.
21 Charles Mann.
22 Mr. Mann, are you aware that that's been
23 asked to --
24 MR. MANN: Questions only.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: You're a good man.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
253
1 Seeing no further questions, we'll continue
2 that public hearing and take no further action.
3 Well, you guys were the ones that asked for
4 that to be deferred, correct?
5 MR. MANN: I've got several -- yes, sir.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You looked kind of
7 surprised. I wanted to make sure that we are on
8 the right bill.
9 -251. We will open that public hearing.
10 MR. MANN: Charles Mann, 165 Arlington
11 Road, representing the landowner.
12 For questions only.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a speaker, Paul
14 Cercy.
15 MR. MANN: Oh, excuse me.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Come on up, sir.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. My name is Paul
19 Cercy at 12530 Dunn Creek Road.
20 And if you're referencing on your planning
21 and zoning map, we're on the triangular piece of
22 property right behind the applicant's property.
23 We're right on there, however you want to call
24 it, right there facing Dunn Creek.
25 Really we have no opposition to the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
254
1 building of this facility. The only thing that
2 we request is that -- we weren't really kind of
3 told anything about any kind of separation,
4 fencing, or anything like that between our
5 property and the landowner's property.
6 And on the subject of the fencing, I just
7 want to make sure that it will be -- since it
8 looks like it's being proposed to be a gas
9 station, since our house is in quite close
10 proximity -- I will say that I'm a Florida
11 certified paramedic for the last seven years,
12 and for life safety reasons, you know, I would
13 feel more comfortable with some kind of, you
14 know, barrier that not only is a visual
15 deterrent or, you know, a visual barrier, but
16 something that in the event of an emergency or
17 catastrophe, fire, anything like that, we could,
18 you know, at least have a little protection.
19 And I don't know what is already on the block
20 for that. We just wanted to add that.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
22 Mr. Mann, you're up.
23 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, of course, we've
24 got to meet Part 12 as part of our application.
25 As far as some sort of barrier to present a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
255
1 catastrophe, I don't know what to offer. I've
2 never run into that one. We would be open to
3 suggestions. But, of course, in putting into a
4 convenience store, gas station such as we're
5 doing, we have to meet all kinds of federal
6 regulations, state regulations, and everything
7 like that for safety for the pumping of gas,
8 which we will fully meet. We've done it in many
9 places throughout the county, throughout the
10 state.
11 We would appreciate your support of our
12 application.
13 Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no further speakers,
15 we will close that public hearing.
16 I have a question.
17 Well, first let's hear the amendments.
18 Can I get a motion for the amendments and a
19 second?
20 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
21 MR. HOLT: Second.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: It's been moved and
23 seconded.
24 Can we hear the amendments, please.
25 MR. KELLY: Certainly.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
256
1 Through the Chair, members of the
2 committee, application for rezoning 2009-251 was
3 approved by Planning Commission subject to
4 actually nine conditions. Condition 4 was
5 struck.
6 I'll read them into the record if you'd
7 like.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: You know, it's funny. I
9 don't have those conditions in my book, so you
10 need to read them.
11 MR. KELLY: The condition 1 is, "The
12 development is subject to the original legal
13 description dated March 3rd, 2009."
14 Condition 2, "The development shall be
15 subject to the original written description
16 dated February 3rd, 2009."
17 Condition 3, "The development shall be
18 subject to the original site plan dated
19 December 1st, 2008."
20 Condition 4, which references a Development
21 Services Division memo, is struck.
22 Condition 5, "A minimum 6-foot-wide
23 sidewalk shall be provided where off-street
24 parking abuts the single-story convenience
25 store."
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
257
1 Condition 6, "The applicant shall provide
2 commercial landscaping and buffering consistent
3 with guidelines 1.5.20 and figure 1.5.20(a) of
4 the Jacksonville Design Guidelines and Best
5 Practices Handbook along the southern property
6 line and the western property line." That will
7 likely address --
8 MR. MANN: That would be contiguous to this
9 gentleman's property.
10 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
11 Condition 7, "Screening of the dumpster
12 enclosures shall be consistent with
13 guideline 1.6.4 of the Jacksonville Design
14 Guidelines and Best Practices."
15 Condition 8, "At the time of verification
16 of substantial compliance, the applicant shall
17 submit building elevations which are subject to
18 review and approval of the Planning and
19 Development Department."
20 Condition 9, "Signage shall consist of one
21 monument-style sign not to exceed 200 square
22 feet in area and 20 feet in height. Said
23 signage shall not be located closer than
24 100 feet from any residential property line."
25 Condition 10, "All pole lighting shall be
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
258
1 limited to 15 feet in height and shall be
2 consistent with guidelines 1.7.7(d), 1.12 and
3 figures D, 1.12(a), D, 1.12(b), and D, 1.12(c)
4 of the Jacksonville Design Guidelines Best
5 Practices Handbook."
6 Furthermore, "The site planting shall be
7 consistent with D 1.2 and D 1.11, whereas the
8 gas station canopy shall be consistent with
9 D, 1.19, 1.21, 1.22, 1.23, and 1.27."
10 That's it.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mann, are you in
12 agreeable with those conditions as read?
13 MR. MANN: I'd like every one of those D's
14 explained.
15 Just kidding.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: That is not happening.
17 MR. MANN: I knew that before I said it.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you okay with those
19 conditions, Mr. Mann?
20 MR. MANN: Yes, sir, we are.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Paul, I have a
22 question for you, sir.
23 (Mr. Cercy approaches the podium.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: The main thing you're
25 looking for, I guess, to our understanding, is
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
259
1 some sort of a buffer between you and this gas
2 station, via, like a fence or a hedge or
3 something along that line? Or are you looking
4 for some sort of fire wall?
5 MR. CERCY: Well, no. I mean, nothing, you
6 know, ridiculous because it's something -- I
7 mean, I do understand if some catastrophe does
8 happen, a little fence, you know, or even -- you
9 know, a 16-foot-block fence, whatever, is
10 probably not going to -- the whole neighborhood
11 is probably going to go if it explodes or some
12 catastrophe happens, I do understand.
13 But, yeah, mainly it's just like, you know,
14 we'd like a little bit more security than a
15 piece of wood and, you know, whatever.
16 Something that clearly, you know, defines the
17 definitions between the properties so there's
18 no, you know, overlapping, you know, that I have
19 to look at a gas station. That's really not a
20 problem.
21 Most of our problem is just for, you know,
22 the separation issue.
23 And also I didn't mention before, but I
24 don't know what kind of drainage issues are --
25 we -- since we live right there. We live in a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
260
1 low area and we just want to make sure all
2 drainage issues, you know, are handled.
3 MR. MANN: Well, that would be covered by
4 the St. Johns River Water Management District.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mann, you need to mumble
6 on the record.
7 I'm sorry, sir.
8 MR. MANN: We'll have to meet St. Johns
9 Water River Management's design criteria for any
10 type of drainage, but it will have to be
11 positive on our property.
12 Mr. Chairman, I think my client would agree
13 to vinyl fencing there versus the wood that this
14 gentleman seems to be concerned with if that
15 would make the committee happy.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is that --
17 MR. CERCY: That would be fine with us.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: See, it pays to come down
19 here and talk to us.
20 MR. CERCY: Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We will make
22 that a condition that Mr. Holt made and
23 Mr. Joost just seconded.
24 All in favor of that extra condition and
25 the amendment as read signify by saying aye.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
261
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
6 approved those amendments.
7 Mr. Joost, you were first. Did you have
8 anything else to add?
9 MR. JOOST: How tall is that vinyl
10 fencing?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: I believe it's six foot.
12 MR. MANN: Six foot, yes, sir.
13 MR. KELLY: Well, the conventional part 12
14 of the zoning code, uncomplementary land use
15 buffer, again, requires an 8-foot-high visual
16 screen. We would request that it not be in the
17 required front yard of the adjoining residential
18 property so that it can be setback from, I
19 guess, Dunns Creek Road, from the right-of-way,
20 so that it doesn't obstruct any site distance
21 visibility or anything like that.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it's duly noted.
23 Mr. Mann is fully agreeable to the things
24 you're saying.
25 And Mr. Holt has got something to say.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
262
1 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
2 I might ask for something -- I might just
3 give my opinion on something.
4 Number 5, the 6-foot-wide sidewalk. This
5 is something that's been bugging me lately. You
6 guys pretty much require these on all these type
7 developments. There are no sidewalks for that
8 to connect to. It will be a sidewalk to
9 nowhere.
10 MR. KELLY: I understand your concern on
11 that issue. This is not out in the
12 right-of-way. This is the sidewalk in front of
13 the store where the cars, you know, and the
14 tires basically come up and encroach the
15 sidewalk.
16 So what the code says in a parking lot
17 where you don't have a grass strip of at least
18 three feet wide between the sidewalk, that that
19 sidewalk has to be at least six feet wide to
20 allow for ADA access into the store. You need
21 an accessible area along that sidewalk.
22 Otherwise, the front end of the cars, as they
23 pull up to park, encroach into that sidewalk.
24 MR. HOLT: So you're just saying that it
25 needs to have concrete entrances. It doesn't
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
263
1 need to have a sidewalk from one end of the
2 property line to the other?
3 MR. KELLY: That condition is solely for
4 the store frontage. But I understand the issue
5 about the sidewalks to nowhere, and we're
6 looking at that right now.
7 MR. HOLT: Good, because it's really
8 annoying to see those that are never going to be
9 completed.
10 But thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: That all being said, open
12 the ballot.
13 (Committee ballot opened.)
14 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
16 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
21 the vote.
22 (Committee ballot closed.)
23 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
25 approved -251 as amended.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
264
1 MR. MANN: Mr. Chairman, committee, thank
2 you very much.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Committee, top of page 8,
4 2009-252. We will open the public hearing.
5 Charles Mann for questions only.
6 We will continue that public hearing and
7 take no further action.
8 -253. We'll open the public hearing.
9 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
10 public hearing and take no further action.
11 -254. Open the public hearing.
12 Continue that public hearing and take no
13 further action.
14 -255. We'll open the public hearing.
15 Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public
16 hearing.
17 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
18 MR. HOLT: Second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
20 seconded.
21 Any discussion on the bill?
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
24 ballot.
25 (Committee ballot opened.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
265
1 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
3 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
8 the vote.
9 (Committee ballot closed.)
10 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
12 approved -255.
13 Top of page 9. -284, -285, -286, -287 are
14 all deferred.
15 Top of page 10. -288, -289, -290 are
16 deferred.
17 -291, we will open the public hearing.
18 We have Mr. Hartsfield, followed by
19 Dennis Noon.
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Can we switch?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We can switch.
22 Mr. Noon, followed by Mr. Hartsfield.
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I have something for the
25 overhead, please.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
266
1 We had a Greg Johnson from a Mid-America
2 Apartments. He's the owner of the Paddock Club
3 Apartments. He was here earlier. He had to
4 leave.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I can't hear a word you're
6 saying unless you speak into the mic.
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: We had a Mr. Greg
8 Johnson, who -- I believe he filled out a card.
9 He had to leave. He's with the owners of the
10 Paddock Club Apartments which has some
11 interest. He's in opposition to this, as we
12 are, but he had to leave.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
14 Sir, I need your name and address for the
15 record, and you have three minutes.
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Dennis Noon, 8010
17 Fleur De Lis Drive in the Raymur Villas
18 subdivision.
19 I represent Raymur Villas' Homeowners
20 Association and we're opposed to this bill. Our
21 homeowners association comprises of 225 homes.
22 And although this bill is merely about
23 reserving traffic capacity, the ultimate goal of
24 the people who own the property is to have a
25 development of some 30 houses. They say 40, but
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
267
1 only 30 will fit in here, and they're trying
2 to -- and the problem that we really have with
3 it is the access site they want to use.
4 This has been here before. Mr. Chairman,
5 you've seen this before. The rest of the
6 committee has not. This was in bill 2004-856
7 and 2006-142. And our main problem is not with
8 the development. It's with this access site
9 which is extremely dangerous. It's insufficient
10 to have as an access site and should never have
11 been granted traffic capacity to begin with.
12 In the bill 2006-142, Councilman Lake Ray
13 called this -- said this would be an illegal
14 access, and it's still illegal. It's dangerous
15 because it's too close to the subdivision
16 entrance across the street from it. It doesn't
17 meet the minimum separation distance
18 requirement.
19 And there's so many issues with this. This
20 strip was added to their landlocked property
21 that the owner of the property had over 30 years
22 ago and it was landlocked then, and everything
23 developed around it in the last 30 years. And
24 the only strip left that connected his
25 landlocked property to any road would be -- this
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
268
1 strip is between the Paddock Club Apartments you
2 see at the top of the page and our subdivision
3 at the bottom of the page. And that's served as
4 a buffer, a 50-foot-wide buffer for over
5 20 years. And that's its highest and best use.
6 This strip is 513 feet long, and it connects
7 with about eight acres that they want to
8 develop.
9 But this strip is insufficient to be used
10 as a development access of any kind, public or
11 private.
12 During the hearings in 2006-142, they were
13 denied a City street, which would be City
14 maintained. They were denied that and said it's
15 insufficient for that, so they went the other
16 way to have a -- well, now we're going to have
17 it as a private driveway, a private driveway to
18 30 houses.
19 Well, where do you bring the garbage? I
20 guess, is a garbage truck going to go down
21 there? I don't think so. Who maintains the
22 road? The individual homeowners.
23 There's so many problems with this. Plus,
24 it creates a danger in an elementary school
25 zone.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
269
1 They don't even own enough property at the
2 entrance to this on Hartsfield Road. That's
3 owned by Paddock Club and owned by one of our
4 neighbors. We have right-angle fences there
5 which block the line of sight.
6 And in the hearings that you attended for
7 2006-142, nobody would sell their property to
8 make sight lines for this development. Nobody
9 wants it there.
10 And this is a road that's never going to
11 happen, a development that's never going to be
12 built. And, therefore, we don't feel that any
13 traffic capacity at all should be granted to
14 these folks until they own all the property they
15 need and can comply with all the ordinances and
16 design standards that apply here, and that's
17 never going to happen.
18 Our subdivision and all the surrounding
19 neighbors are in opposition to anything that
20 would create an illegal access road at this
21 site, and we ask that you deny this bill.
22 And there are many other issues here that I
23 can go over if you have questions. Even the --
24 even the interim traffic engineering chief
25 didn't like this bill, and this was submitted
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
270
1 during 2006-142.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir.
3 MR. NOON: Yes.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Your time is up.
5 MR. NOON: Thank you very much. Appreciate
6 it.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Scott Hartsfield.
8 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Scott Hartsfield, 8003
10 Dalehurst Drive South.
11 Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, thank
12 you very much. And good evening. I promise to
13 make this brief.
14 I'd like to go on record that me and my
15 family do oppose this bill, 2009-291. Our
16 concerns are primarily for safety because of the
17 intersection of where it is on Hartsfield Road
18 and where the access is.
19 I think I've shared with some of the
20 committee members before that me and my family
21 are active members of Clean It Up/Green It Up
22 right there on Hartsfield Road. The traffic is
23 extremely heavy. So the traffic is a concern
24 for this particular intersection that we're
25 talking about.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
271
1 As you're aware, this bill, as Mr. Noon
2 indicated, has been before this forum before
3 with different bill numbers.
4 Traffic studies have also been done before
5 in the past, and you can certainly look at those
6 that have been submitted.
7 That's all that I have. I ask that you
8 please make the right decision on this bill.
9 Thank you very much.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
11 Alberta Hipps.
12 (Ms. Hipps approaches the podium.)
13 MS. HIPPS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 Alberta Hipps, 1650 Margaret Street.
15 Mr. Chairman and Councilmembers, we're not
16 here tonight for a zoning. It's been mentioned
17 how this particular property has been before you
18 before. We're here tonight for a development
19 agreement that reduces the concurrency for what
20 it was originally filed for 160 townhomes and is
21 now being reduced with this development
22 agreement to 40 single-family homes, and that is
23 much less than what the property zoned as RMD-A
24 would be accommodated by right.
25 The property owner, which I represent, is
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
272
1 going forth in good faith to reduce the
2 concurrency as an assurance to the neighborhood
3 that he understands that the density -- and I
4 would urge you to take into consideration that
5 when all these issues came up before the
6 zoning -- all that will, whenever the property
7 is to be developed, be taken care of by the
8 traffic engineer and the engineering of the
9 property.
10 And I would urge you to approve this
11 development agreement.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Hipps.
13 Seeing no other speakers, we will close
14 that public hearing.
15 Ms. Hipps, hold on. We've got a question
16 for you.
17 Mr. Holt.
18 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
19 Ms. Hipps, so you're saying this property
20 doesn't have the zoning for what they eventually
21 want to do with it? You're just changing your
22 number for the CCAS?
23 MS. HIPPS: I'm saying that they do have
24 the zoning by right. The zoning is in place
25 now. And originally there was a developer back
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
273
1 in 19- -- I mean in 2004 that had wanted to put
2 160 townhomes there. That was denied.
3 But the concurrency for that density has
4 stayed in place. This development does away
5 with that concurrency and reduces it down to
6 what the property owner can do by right.
7 MR. HOLT: But what is currently approved
8 for the property, is it this?
9 MS. HIPPS: Currently, it is a townhome
10 project -- it is -- the concurrency is approved
11 for 160 townhomes. The zoning is approved for
12 RMD-A. And I would refer to Mr. Crofts, but
13 it's my understanding by right RMD-A would allow
14 eight units per acre, which would be 72 units,
15 but this development agreement is being put in
16 place for only 40.
17 MR. HOLT: Okay. So it limits you to less
18 than what the zoning allows?
19 MS. HIPPS: Exactly.
20 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no further questions,
22 open the ballot.
23 (Committee ballot opened.)
24 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
274
1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
5 the vote.
6 (Committee ballot closed.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead and call the vote.
8 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
10 approved 2009-291.
11 Top of page 11. 2009-292. Open that
12 public hearing.
13 Randy is here for questions only. You're a
14 good man.
15 We will close that public hearing.
16 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
17 MR. HOLT: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
19 seconded.
20 Any discussion?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open
23 ballot.
24 (Committee ballot opened.)
25 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
275
1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
7 the vote.
8 (Committee ballot closed.)
9 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action you have
11 approved -292.
12 MR. GALLUP: Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: -293. We'll open that
14 public hearing.
15 Curtis Hart. It looks like he's here for
16 questions only as well.
17 (Mr. Hart approaches the podium.)
18 MR. HART: I am, but I would like the
19 amendment read.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We can do that.
21 Seeing no questions, we'll close the public
22 hearing.
23 And, again, state your name and address for
24 the record.
25 MR. HART: Curtis Hart, 8051 Tara Lane,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
276
1 Jacksonville.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's hear the amendment.
3 MS. ELLER: Mr. Chairman, it just corrects
4 the acreage. There were some inconsistencies
5 throughout. And Mr. Smith can provide the
6 details, but I believe he confirmed with the
7 owner.
8 MR. HART: Well, good. Good. I just
9 wanted to make sure that was --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. All in favor of
11 the amendment --
12 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
13 MR. REDMAN: Second.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment has been moved
15 and seconded.
16 All in favor signify by saying aye.
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you approved
21 the amendment.
22 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
23 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
25 seconded as amended.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
277
1 Seeing no discussion, open the ballot.
2 (Committee ballot opened.)
3 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
5 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
10 the vote.
11 (Committee ballot closed.)
12 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
14 approved -293.
15 -294. Open the public hearing.
16 Randy is here for questions as well.
17 Seeing no questions, we'll close that
18 public hearing.
19 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
20 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
22 seconded.
23 Seeing no questions, open the ballot.
24 (Committee ballot opened.)
25 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
278
1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
7 the vote.
8 (Committee ballot closed.)
9 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
11 approved -294.
12 MR. GALLUP: Thank you. Have a great
13 evening.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
15 Randy, since you're here, let's go ahead
16 and get your name and address for the record
17 just so I don't get yelled at by our court
18 reporter.
19 MR. GALLUP: Randy Gallup, 2823 Alaskan
20 Way.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
22 MR. GALLUP: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: -295. We will open that
24 public hearing.
25 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
279
1 public hearing and take no further action.
2 Top of page 12. -296. Open the public
3 hearing.
4 Seeing no speakers, continue that public
5 hearing and take no further action.
6 -297. Open the public hearing.
7 Mike Saylor is here for questions only. He
8 too is a good man.
9 We will close that public hearing.
10 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
11 MR. HOLT: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment has been moved
13 and seconded.
14 Do you need to hear the amendment,
15 Mr. Saylor?
16 MR. SAYLOR: I would like to hear the
17 amendment.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's hear the amendments.
19 MS. ELLER: The amendment removes
20 references to a condo since they've converted it
21 to the warehouse square footage.
22 MR. SAYLOR: Thank you so much.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Saylor, are you fine
24 with that?
25 MR. SAYLOR: It makes my life a lot
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
280
1 easier. It's been tough to explain.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the
3 amendment signify by saying aye.
4 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
6 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
8 approved the amendment.
9 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
10 MR. HOLT: Second.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
12 seconded as amended.
13 Any discussion on the bill?
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, please open the
16 ballot.
17 (Committee ballot opened.)
18 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
20 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
25 the vote.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
281
1 (Committee ballot closed.)
2 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
4 approved 2009-297.
5 Thank you, Mr. Saylor.
6 MR. SAYLOR: I have a new address, 1755
7 East Duval Street.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: You're a good man.
9 Now, see, there's advantages of being on
10 the end of the agenda. You don't get beat up as
11 bad.
12 2009-298. We will open the public hearing.
13 Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public
14 hearing.
15 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
16 MR. HOLT: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment has been moved
18 and seconded.
19 Any discussion on the amendment?
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Has the amendment changed
22 since Planning Commission or what is the
23 amendment?
24 MS. ELLER: The amendment are technical
25 corrections to identify the proper land use and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
282
1 zoning for the property and to fix a real estate
2 number referenced and to indicate a new
3 applicant name, which is Staci Rewis as opposed
4 to Tom Ingram.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It sounds good.
6 All in favor say aye.
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
11 approved the amendment.
12 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
13 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
15 seconded as amended.
16 Seeing no discussion, please open the
17 ballot.
18 (Committee ballot opened.)
19 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
21 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
283
1 the vote.
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
5 approved -298.
6 -299. Open the public hearing.
7 Fred, come on down.
8 (Mr. Atwill approaches the podium.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: He is here for questions
10 only as well, but might as well give us your
11 name and address for the record, please.
12 MR. ATWILL: Thank you Mr. Chairman.
13 Fred Atwill, Jr., 9001 Forest Acres Lane.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: You're a good man.
15 We will close that public hearing.
16 MR. HOLT: Move the bill.
17 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: We have a -- the bill has
19 been moved and seconded.
20 We have a question from Mr. Joost.
21 MR. JOOST: A real quick question.
22 Is that any relationship to Bill Joos that
23 was here earlier, J-o-o-s?
24 MR. ATWILL: Yes. I represent the Joos
25 Trust. Mr. Joos is the trustee of the Joos
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
284
1 Trust.
2 MR. JOOST: Okay. Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that make you want to
4 vote against it now?
5 MR. ATWILL: They have a bunch of land.
6 MR. JOOST: I'm thinking.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. There's no questions
8 on the ballot. Please open the ballot.
9 (Committee ballot opened.)
10 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
12 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
17 the vote.
18 (Committee ballot closed.)
19 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
21 approved -299.
22 You know, that would be kind of
23 interesting.
24 Okay. Top of page 13. -324, -325, -326,
25 -327, -328 are all second rerefer.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
285
1 And unless something is wrong, I think --
2 MR. JOOST: We have one more.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, I'm sorry. We do have
4 the appeal.
5 Top of page 7. We have an appeal.
6 2009-238. We will open that public hearing.
7 We have several people in favor, nobody
8 speaking against it.
9 All right. Let's go.
10 Let's go with Ms. Price [sic] followed by
11
12 Whichever order you guys want to go.
13 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Shoot.
16 Name and address for the record.
17 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Jervard Priester, 5004
19 THE CHAIRMAN: You're on.
20 MR. PRIESTER: I'm representing Uptown 21.
21 First of all, I'd like to say we're
22 currently open with an SRX license in full
23 operation. We're a full scale restaurant with a
24 top chef, Chef Pratt, and a top-notch catering
25 service. We've been open with no problem and
Diane M.
Tropia,
286
1 created 50 job opportunities in the city. We've
2 provided quality entertainment with
3 Grammy-nominated artists and legendary acts.
4 We also are a comedy house where we host
5 some of the nation's top comedians from BET and
6 Def Comedy Jam on Tuesday nights.
7 We cater only to grown-up folks. It's 21
8 and up. We have no incidents or have no problem
9 with police out there, no crime. We work well
10 with our neighbors. As you can see, we don't
11 have anyone here to oppose this.
12 We open -- host wedding receptions and
13 luncheons, and just recently we did a charity
14 event on Saturday with the Hubbard House,
15 hosting it, and half of the proceeds went to
16 them.
17 We're currently operating in a location
18 that was previously a club with an SRX 4-COP
19 license. We are now operating ourselves in the
20 same way.
21 We're asking for a relief from that
22 requirement because we're forced to comply with
23 the 51/49 rule. And that's kind of hard to
24 comply with that, being a grown folks
25 establishment because we're 21 and up. And
Diane M.
Tropia,
287
1 we're not open as a daily -- we can't open as a
2 daily restaurant because our budget is tight.
3 We've passed the test. We've been open with no
4 incident, created jobs. We have --
5 Like I say, we have no crime, no -- we
6 don't even have security inside of the
7 building. Everyone is greeted at the door and
8 searched and stuff, and we don't have it inside
9 the building.
10 We wish not to be forced to have a
11 restaurant because we just can't afford it
12 without additional funding. And it's going to
13 be hard to match it up, and we get ABT come in
14 and fine us.
15 We're speaking for ourselves because we
16 were denied when we hired a consultant to handle
17 the business. And we also seek representation,
18 and they gave us a number that -- extremely high
19 as well.
20 We also just had a meeting with one of the
21 top -- one of the high-ranking officials from
22 the ABT in
23 recommended that, due to the magnitude of our
24 building, that we should have a 4-COP license in
25 place.
Diane M.
Tropia,
288
1 That's it.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
3 MR. PRIESTER: Okay. Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Anybody else want to speak?
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Come on.
7 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: I just need your name and
9 address for the record.
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: All right. My name is
11 Ashiya Prince, and my address is 4580 Northwest
12
49 Street,
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
14 MS. PRINCE: Ready? Okay.
15 Uptown 21, like he said, is a restaurant
16 and a banquet hall, and we operate as such
17 during our business hours. Like he said, the
18 main problem that we're having is complying with
19 the 51/49 rule. It's totally impossible, as ABT
20 has stated. We've passed every sort of
21 requirement that they put before us, and for us
22 not to be able to obtain a full 4-COP is totally
23 ludicrous.
24 Basically complying with the
25 plan that they have for creating jobs, that's
Diane M.
Tropia,
289
1 what we're here to do. We've had no incidents,
2 no problems, but we've created over 50 jobs for
3 our employees.
4 And basically we just want to be able to
5 allow us to serve food by our choice and not by
6 force. Doing it this way, you're forcing us to
7 serve food and complying with something that's
8 not going to balance out. It doesn't matter how
9 you do it. In our initial stages, it's
10 impossible.
11 You have three months to comply with their
12 rules. There's no way that you can do that.
13 Even if we gave food away, it still wouldn't
14 happen.
15 As everyone can see, our establishment has
16 been overrated by a lot of different people here
17 in
18 any problems. I don't understand why we can't
19 be approved.
20 And from there, everything pretty much --
21 the proof is in the pudding. There's really
22 nothing else we could say, and I'm going to pass
23 it along.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
25 MS. PRINCE: Thank you all.
Diane M.
Tropia,
290
1 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Levi Jordan, 6714
4 I started the process because I thought it
5 was a good process. I sold the business to
6 Jervard Priester and Alex Guba. I'm also on as
7 the promoter of the place right now.
8 Uptown 21 is currently known as the House
9 of Blues of the South, which is a good thing
10 because that's a big name. We're bringing in
11 good acts. Everything has been pretty good.
12 This Friday we have Keith Sweat, a legendary
13 artist in the building performing live.
14 The reputation is very good. The food is
15 very good. There is a restaurant there. The
16 restaurant operates. 51/49 is very hard. The
17 building is 12,000 square feet. That means it
18 holds a lot of people. So if you've got a
19 12,000-square-foot building, that means you
20 could have up to maybe 1,000 people. If they
21 all don't eat and the liquor is served, at the
22 end of the month, we can't comply. It's my job
23 to bring in acts. I can only bring in acts
24 that's going to draw people.
25 So if I bring in acts that draw people --
Diane M.
Tropia,
291
1 Carl Thomas is for first Friday, and Jazmine
2 Sullivan is on the 8th. That means that if the
3 kitchen can't keep up, at the end of 90 days, we
4 are amended, we're fined, we're put on
5 probation.
6 We're in position to buy 4-COP liquor
7 license. It costs $265,000. We're willing to
8 make the investment to increase the jobs in the
9 area.
10 I graduated from
11 know the area very well. It needs what we're
12 doing. It's a good project, a good opportunity,
13 and these are good people and they work very
14 hard.
15 The restaurant will remain open during the
16 business hours. But to force a small business
17 without the resources to possibly fail is
18 unfair, because they can't keep up. Got a good
19 chef in house, it's a good place, everything is
20 good.
21 It's a 21-and-up establishment. Within a
22 three-mile radius, there's at least ten clubs
23 and businesses that are currently open and
24 operating under the club format. A lot
25 different from us because, like I say, we're 21
Diane M.
Tropia,
292
1 and up. The insurance policy requires 21 and
2 up. This is a good opportunity and a good
3 business, minority business. Over 50 jobs have
4 been created, and I had to hire two people just
5 to keep up with the entertainment that I bring
6 into that building. It's a good opportunity.
7 Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
9 Seeing no other speakers, we will close
10 that public hearing.
11 And we do have Mr. Redman here for a
12 question or two, or he's just going to tell us
13 what he thinks about this project.
14 Mr. Redman.
15 MR. REDMAN: Well, this restaurant -- and I
16 note that they -- in the Planning Commission,
17 they said that they were operating a restaurant
18 and have been operating a restaurant up until
19 this time.
20 Is that correct?
21 MR. PRIESTER: Yes, sir.
22 MR. REDMAN: All right. So now you say
23 that you can't afford to continue doing food?
24 MR. PRIESTER: No, sir. We're not saying
25 that. We're going to keep the restaurant.
Diane M.
Tropia,
293
1 We're saying it's kind of hard to balance
2 it out, 51/49. The restaurant -- we're not
3 going to shut down the restaurant because we
4 make money at the restaurant, but it's just not
5 as much as the alcohol.
6 MR. KELLY: Through the Chair, as a --
7 under the license type that they currently have,
8 which is a 4-COP SRX, it's a special restaurant
9 license. It requires essentially 51 percent of
10 all their sales basically to be derived from the
11 sale of food as opposed to liquor. So that --
12 that is the -- that 51/49 threshold.
13 And so while they may have a restaurant,
14 the restaurant isn't generating that percentage
15 that's required to maintain that license and
16 that's why they're here basically to get the
17 4-COP license.
18 MR. REDMAN: All right. I know there's
19 been some question about parking for this area.
20 This is not a business area. This is a
21 commercial -- storage buildings and that type of
22 thing in this area. It's not a commercial area.
23 MR. JORDAN: We operate after hours. So,
24 therefore, we comply with the number of parking
25 spaces for the square footage, which is 392.
Diane M.
Tropia,
294
1 At the last meeting that we had, we were
2 approved for that.
3 We've also initiated valet parking to our
4 services at a very low rate. We went to our
5 neighbors, Comcast, a towing company, a lawn
6 company, a graphics company, and they all
7 approved us to use their facilities after hours.
8 We also worked with the bakery that's next
9 door and 7UP. And everybody approved us to use
10 their parking after hours. That's why we try to
11 keep the after hours with the restaurant open
12 after six o'clock, with the building being open
13 mostly five days a week after nine o'clock, so
14 we don't interfere with anybody. And we did
15 comply with all the parking needs that we have.
16 MR. REDMAN: Okay. And the parking lot
17 there where you operate, the bakery, and I think
18 there's a couple other warehouse-type businesses
19 there. Supposing another business were to come
20 in or something else that operated at night,
21 that would -- you know, which is very
22 possible -- you'd have a real problem with
23 parking at that point.
24 MR. JORDAN: No, sir.
25 Currently, the bakery and 7UP operate at
Diane M.
Tropia,
295
1 night. They operate from 12 o'clock a.m. till
2 about 6:00 a.m. So we share right now. They
3 just don't come to the front lot. And most of
4 our parking is diverted down to Comcast which
5 houses over 200 spaces. The rest of our parking
6 is housed at the lawn company across the street,
7 which houses over 100 spaces.
8 The other spaces that we use is in the rear
9 of the adjacent building, and it also houses
10 110 spaces because we hired a parking company,
11 the same one used by Sneakers and some of the
12 larger places in town, to valet park.
13 So instead of creating one space,
14 one-and-a-half space is created because of valet
15 parking. And they're bonded.
16 MR. REDMAN: Well, the requirements are
17 that you have 1,100 square feet in your parking
18 area for your facility; is that correct?
19 MR. JORDAN: We have that. We have -- we
20 bought the maps the first time we were here,
21 when we were denied by Planning, when we were
22 told we needed to bring maps. It was certified
23 that we had 392 spaces.
24 MR. REDMAN: Planning, do you all have some
25 comments on the parking?
Diane M.
Tropia,
296
1 MR. KELLY: The parking, as it's
2 proposed -- and I guess initially we have
3 concerns with -- you know, especially when
4 you're converting a use. Essentially, going to
5 a 4-COP license is really the triggering
6 mechanism that has a stricter parking
7 requirement. Essentially, it gets escalated
8 because the nightclubs tend to generate a lot
9 more parking and traffic.
10 I'm not aware of any signed agreements or
11 anything, shared parking agreements that are
12 currently off-site, although they would be
13 permitted by code. And it sounds like they,
14 through those shared parking agreements, are
15 either compliant or exceed, but they're not
16 meeting the required parking on the parcel
17 that's the subject of the exception.
18 So any kind of off-site parking
19 arrangement, if that would be proposed as a
20 condition or something, I mean that would have
21 to be nailed down and, you know, deeded
22 basically to, you know, each property owner or
23 some kind of signed agreement or something like
24 that.
25 But I haven't seen those documents.
Diane M.
Tropia,
297
1 MR. JORDAN: We have those documents.
2 In order for us to open, we had to present
3 those documents and they had to be certified.
4 We gave you letters from Comcast, we gave you
5 letters from all the business owners, and -- as
6 part of our first packet.
7 In order to open the business and get the
8 license, we had to show 392 spaces, whether in
9 our immediate facility, adjacent building, or
10 adjacent parking. We came up with approximately
11 600 spaces. So we are far and -- we exceeded
12 all our parking problems.
13 MS. PRINCE: And everyone was given a copy.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am, you have to come to
15 the mic.
16 MS. PRINCE: Everyone was given a copy of
17 those letters at our first Planning meeting
18 also.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
20 MR. REDMAN: How many people -- what is
21 the capacity of this building that you have?
22 And do you have designated smoking areas in the
23 building?
24 MR. JORDAN: No. It's a no-smoking
25 building because we are -- we have carpet, and
Diane M.
Tropia,
298
1 we're like -- we are a restaurant.
2 The restaurant will not go away. We will
3 not get rid of those jobs. We just want to be
4 allowed to not to have to comply with the 51/49
5 rule. The restaurant stays in place.
6 As a matter of fact, we're still going to
7 open a high-class restaurant called Uptown
8 Hideaway with Chef Pratt. That's why he came
9 aboard. So we still have plans to do the
10 restaurant. We just need to do -- we need to
11 keep making money basically to get where we're
12 going as a business.
13 As far as everything else is concerned,
14 smoking, we don't allow it. We do have areas
15 that they can go to smoke outside the building.
16 There hasn't been a problem.
17 Bringing on 4-COP -- I've been in this
18 business since 1985. We won't draw no more
19 people than we're currently drawing. We're have
20 no parking problems. We're currently, on a big
21 night, doing as many as 600, 700 people without
22 a problem. No parking problems.
23 Our age range is 21 to 65. Everybody has a
24 good time.
25 MR. REDMAN: Sounds like you're running a
Diane M.
Tropia,
299
1 good place but, you know, I just don't feel like
2 it's the right location. There's no other bars
3 right in that area. It's not a suitable
4 location for what you're doing.
5 MR. JORDAN: Within a three-miles radius,
6 sir -- as a matter of fact, two blocks down the
7 street -- three blocks down the street, there's
8 a Korean restaurant and club that operates right
9 there across from the hotel in that same
10 facility.
11 Down the street there's a Mexican place,
12 and right there on
13 also. So there's several facilities within a
14 three-mile radius that does -- they do business
15 that we don't do, so -- light industrial. And
16 we've invested over $300,000 in this building at
17 this point.
18 Before we got involved in this project, we
19 were told that the zoning and everything was
20 fine. Got in the middle of it, then we ran into
21 a problem. But we've invested a lot of money.
22 We can't turn back at this point. And that's
23 why we complied with everybody concerning the
24 restaurant.
25 We don't want to get rid of the restaurant,
Diane M.
Tropia,
300
1 so I want you to hear this very well. We want
2 to keep the restaurant, we want to serve good
3 quality food, we want to create more jobs. We
4 just don't want to be forced to comply with the
5 51/49 because we do major acts.
6 When you bring in the acts that we bring
7 in, then you're going to draw a lot of people.
8 Everybody wants to eat.
9 At the end of the year if we balance out,
10 there may be 51/49, it may be bigger on food
11 because we do serve dinner every night. But at
12 the beginning, we will be fined and put through
13 stuff that we can't handle at this point because
14 of finances.
15 MR. REDMAN: Can we make an exception on
16 the amount of food that has to be served?
17 MR. KELLY: We can. I mean, as a
18 condition, you could still stipulate that the
19 service of food shall be available at all times
20 during the hours of operation, service of food
21 ordered from a menu in a sit-down restaurant
22 that, you know, has at least 100 -- essentially
23 meeting the bona fide restaurant criteria, all
24 except for the percentages of the income.
25 So you'd have the seating, minimum 150
Diane M.
Tropia,
301
1 seats in a restaurant, available at all times
2 during normal business hours. Whenever they're
3 open, you can go to the restaurant, sit down and
4 order from a menu -- not, you know, get a hot
5 dog at the counter kind of thing, but, you know,
6 sit-down restaurant, 150 seats, during the hours
7 of operation. That would be one way to do it.
8 Essentially adopting all the bona fide
9 restaurant license criteria except for that
10 percentage threshold.
11 MR. JORDAN: We are willing to do that
12 without a problem. Anything that you guys want
13 us to do, we're willing to do because we're
14 needed in this community at this point because
15 of the business aspect and urban aspect that we
16 bring to the table.
17 MR. REDMAN: Well, I could support it if we
18 can do that.
19 What percentage do you think that you could
20 meet?
21 MR. JORDAN: My opinion is that if we keep
22 going like we're going -- and everybody is
23 invited to Keith Sweat on Friday.
24 If we keep going like we're going -- so you
25 come see exactly what we do -- then we will
Diane M.
Tropia,
302
1 probably end up selling about 35 percent food to
2 maybe about 55 percent food. But I really can't
3 dictate it at this point. I mean, I can't
4 predict it. But between 35 and maybe 55 percent
5 will be food in the building.
6 We have a menu, a very nice menu. If you
7 go to www.clubuptown21.com, you can see the menu
8 online. So we have an upscale menu and an
9 upscale place.
10 MR. REDMAN: So you think if we make it
11 40 percent, that you could survive with that?
12 MR. JORDAN: I think if you give me
13 35 percent, I'd pass the test. I want to play
14 baseball.
15 MR. REDMAN:
16 MS. ELLER: Sure. That percentage
17 requirement goes to the State licensing
18 requirement. And I think that Mr. Kelly has
19 offered up a condition which identifies all of
20 the other criteria in that State licensing
21 criteria but the percentage.
22 So the criteria, as Mr. Kelly read them in,
23 would be service of food any time the club is
24 open, at least 150 seats at a sit-down
25 restaurant available from a menu. And those
Diane M.
Tropia,
303
1 requirements are all of the requirements for a
2 bona fide restaurant, so it would be as if they
3 still had their 4-COP SRX except for the
4 percentage.
5 So I think that --
6 MR. KELLY: And the -- I think there's,
7 like, a square footage to the 2,500 square feet
8 of the 11,000 or 12,000 shall be dedicated
9 towards the restaurant.
10 MR. JORDAN: And that's not a problem.
11 MS. ELLER: So square footage.
12 So I think that with all of those
13 requirements -- I think that if you have to do
14 all those things, I think you're definitely
15 going to get to at least 35 percent. So I think
16 it may be easier to enforce these requirements
17 because those are things that we can send the
18 code inspectors in to check; how many seats are
19 there, are they serving food while the club is
20 open.
21 The percentage is something that we can
22 only check at the end of the year. At the end
23 of the year, we'd have to request their books.
24 And then we'd have to see if they have the
25 percentage. And ABT is coming in and checking.
Diane M.
Tropia,
304
1 And if they don't meet that percentage like
2 within their first 90 days, then they're getting
3 fined.
4 MR. JORDAN: Right.
5 MS. ELLER: So I think that Mr. Kelly can
6 speak more towards that, but I think those are
7 sort of where -- I think where you're falling
8 with regard to enforcement, it might work
9 better, as Mr. Kelly suggested, with all those
10 criteria instead of trying to nail down the
11 percentages.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: So what I'm trying to
13 understand -- we put all the criteria that
14 Mr. Kelly had said, but we're not -- we stay
15 quiet to or silent to actual percentages?
16 MS. ELLER: That would work. And then if
17 you wanted to have a review of that within a
18 year.
19 Mr. Kelly, is that something that we've
20 done in the past? They could come -- you could
21 ask them to come back and report at the end of
22 the year just so you're aware of it. And I
23 think when you come and report, they're going to
24 have a percentage that it will likely be
25 compared to that.
Diane M.
Tropia,
305
1 THE CHAIRMAN: But I think it's something
2 that -- just as long as we keep the criteria
3 there, that if they're -- if they're going to
4 dissatisfy someone, they will dissatisfy the
5 State and the State will handle it from that
6 point, and we don't necessarily need to get in
7 there and start monkeying with that because that
8 tends to be more of a State issue.
9 MS. ELLER: I agree with that conclusion
10 because the licensing requirement that the State
11 has, they are looking towards what the criteria
12 are locally.
13 So if we say it's okay to have the 4-COP,
14 they will defer to us and all these other
15 specific criteria. And then it will help them
16 when they go to the State, that they don't have
17 to provide that percentage.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: To me, it sounds like that
19 makes it work.
20 MR. REDMAN: I can support that, yes.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Sound good. Sounds like
23 Mr. Gaffney is going say ditto.
24 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 Yes. I just wanted to expound on --
Diane M. Tropia,
306
1 initially I didn't recognize the individuals,
2 but then it took me a little while before I
3 recognized all of them. They've been very good
4 stewards in the community. They do a lot of
5 charitable events.
6 I'm somewhat familiar with that area, and I
7 was invited out once. I'm not a party person.
8 I've never been to a party in probably
9 15 years. I was invited out.
10 And it's an extremely nice environment,
11 professional environment. I was very impressed
12 because I'm very -- a little nervous about going
13 to clubs, but it was a very nice professional
14 environment. They have a dress code, so they
15 don't have the young people who wear that
16 rougher looking clothing.
17 So I think the parking, there wasn't a
18 problem because they did have the valet, so --
19 and I just appreciate the frankness and honesty
20 that you expressed to us this evening about what
21 you can or can't do because a lot of folks will
22 exaggerate and say they can do this and mean
23 these and that's not so, so -- which says a lot
24 about your character.
25 So but, yes, if I had not had that first
Diane M.
Tropia,
307
1 direct experience -- I always try to support the
2 district councilperson, so I'm just really glad
3 that you all -- that's where my concern -- that
4 you have an opportunity to express your -- what
5 you're doing, how you're doing it to the
6 district councilperson because that's his
7 district.
8 But thank you very much, and I do support
9 it.
10 Yes, ma'am.
11 MS. PRINCE: And also, just for the record,
12 Councilman Redman, I did call you. I called you
13 like two months ago to kind of talk to you about
14 it.
15 MR. REDMAN: Yes, I know. And I was
16 invited out as well, but I don't go to
17 nightclubs.
18 Thank you.
19 MS. PRINCE: (Inaudible.)
20 MR. JORDAN: Well, I do. When you're a
21 championship when I played at
22 that's a good thing.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: You know, I'm along with --
24 you know, I'm along with these guys. I'm not
25 much of a nightclub, night-owl-type guy myself.
Diane M.
Tropia,
308
1 Mr. Brown.
2 MR. BROWN: Through the Chair, just a quick
3 question. I had a chance to go out on the
4 Web site and I'm very impressed with it.
5 Very nominal fees in terms of price for a
6 concert. And, you know, I'll definitely come
7 out and support what's going on, but I'm just --
8 you know, when I look at other prices for
9 concerts, I don't know how you guys can make
10 it. But I commend your efforts, and keep doing
11 the work that you're doing.
12 MR. JORDAN: We're trying to make friends
13 in the first 90 days.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
15 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
16 So did we have an amendment to the
17 amendment to grant the appeal?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that you were just
19 in the process of saying that you're making an
20 amendment to move forward what Mr. Kelly put on
21 the record.
22 MR. HOLT: Exactly. I make the
23 amendment --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: And I think Mr. Joost just
25 seconded it.
Diane M.
Tropia,
309
1 MR. HOLT: -- as stated by Mr. Kelly.
2 MR. JOOST: Second.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: That all is amended to grant
4 the appeal?
5 MR. HOLT: Correct.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor signify by
7 saying aye.
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Those opposed.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
12 approved the amendment.
13 MR. HOLT: Move the bill as amended.
14 MR. JOOST: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: The bill has been moved and
16 seconded as amended to grant the waiver.
17 Seeing no further discussion, open the
18 ballot.
19 (Committee ballot opened.)
20 MR. GRAHAM: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
22 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
Tropia,
310
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
2 the vote.
3 MR. MR.
4 (Committee ballot closed.)
5 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
7 approved the amendment.
8 We appreciate you guys being patient with
9 this long day of ours, and it always works when
10 you walk away with what you wanted.
11 MR. JORDAN: That's right. I feel like we
12 were working at the club tonight.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. PRIESTER: Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing that we're done, we
16 are adjourned.
17 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
18 10:26 p.m.)
19 - - -
20
21
22
23
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
311
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 STATE OF
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
5
6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 26th day of April, 2009.
11
12
13
14 Diane M. Tropia
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,