1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE




       3                    JOINT MOBILITY PLAN


       4                          WORKSHOP






       7             Proceedings held on Tuesday, December 14,


       8   2010, commencing at 10:15 a.m., City Hall, Lynwood


       9   Roberts Room, 1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida,


      10   before Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for


      11   the State of Florida at Large.




      13   PRESENT:


      14        JACK WEBB, President, City Council.

                RAY HOLT, City Council Member.

      15        WILLIAM BISHOP, City Council Member.

                JOHNNY GAFFNEY, City Council Member.

      16        DICK BROWN, City Council Member.


      17        MARC HARDESTY, Planning Commission Member.

                NATE DAY, Planning Commission Member.

      18        TONY HEMMERLY, Planning Commission Member.

                TONY ROBBINS, Planning Commission Member.

      19        JERRY FRILEY, Planning Commission Member.

                MARY GOLDSMITH, Planning Commission Member.


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        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1   ALSO PRESENT:


       2        T.R. HAINLINE, Chair, Mobility Plan Task Force.

                BILL KILLINGSWORTH, Director, Planning Dept.

       3        SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

                DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.

       4        MARGARET SIDMAN, Office of General Counsel.

                JASON GABRIEL, Office of General Counsel.

       5        JEFF CLEMENTS, Chief, Research Division.

                KIRK SHERMAN, Council Auditor.

       6        JANICE BILLY, Council Auditor's Office.

                MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.

       7        SHARONDA DAVIS, Legislative Assistant.



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        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   December 14, 2010                       10:15 a.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             PRESIDENT WEBB:  I apologize for running


       5        late.  It's 10:15.  We're convening the joint


       6        meeting of the Planning Commission and the City


       7        Council to talk about the mobility fee.


       8             The Planning Department representatives are


       9        where?


      10             DEPARTMENT MEMBERS:  (Indicating.)


      11             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Come on up.  I want you


      12        guys at the table, if you would, please, because


      13        you guys are really going to coordinate this


      14        whole thing.  All right?


      15             I'm Jack Webb.  I'm president of


      16        City Council.  Let's go around the table here


      17        and introduce ourselves, starting with the


      18        Honorable Dick Brown.


      19             (Cell phone interruption.)


      20             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Please turn off all cell


      21        phones.


      22             Thank you very much.


      23             MR. BROWN:  I'm Dick Brown, City Council.


      24        I represent District 13, the Beaches and the


      25        Baymeadows area.





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  Ray Holt, District 11.


       2             MR. BISHOP:  Bill Bishop, District 2, and I


       3        was also on the mobility fee committee.


       4             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Jack Webb, president of


       5        City Council, District 6, working on Irish time


       6        this morning.  I apologize.


       7             MR. FRILEY:  Jerry Friley with the Planning


       8        Commission.


       9             MR. DAY:  Nate Day, Planning Commission.


      10             MR. HEMMERLY:  Tony Hemmerly, Planning


      11        Commission.


      12             MS. GOLDSMITH:  Mary Goldsmith, Planning


      13        Commission.


      14             MR. HARDESTY:  Marc Hardesty, Planning


      15        Commission chairman.


      16             MR. ROBBINS:  Tony Robbins, also with the


      17        Planning Commission.


      18             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Bill Killingsworth,


      19        Planning and Development.


      20             PRESIDENT WEBB:  All right.  Very good.


      21             I just talked to the court reporter.  This


      22        meeting is being recorded.  We are taking


      23        minutes of the meeting.  I would ask that as we


      24        conduct the meeting -- I guess we have, I guess,


      25        technology issues with this room in that we have





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        microphones in the ceiling, so it's very


       2        difficult for the court reporter to get it


       3        down.  So rather than a lot of -- I know it's a


       4        workshop, but let's be mindful of her ability to


       5        take accurate notes or record of the meeting.


       6             So, having said that, what I'd ask the


       7        Planning Department to do is give us a recap and


       8        overview of where we are with regard to this


       9        mobility fee matter, please, if you would.


      10             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  With your indulgence, I


      11        have a presentation.  It's about 19 slides.


      12             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Perfect.


      13             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  I'll jump into that.


      14             And, if you don't mind, I'll -- I'll stand


      15        up because it just feels more natural to me, and


      16        I'll come down this way so Diane can hear me.


      17             Last year, in 2009, in July, Senate Bill


      18        360 was passed, and this kind of presented a


      19        well-timed opportunity for the City.  What was


      20        going on at that same time frame was that the


      21        City was finishing up the first draft of three


      22        vision plans, which was the Urban Core,


      23        Arlington, and the Southeast.  We had previously


      24        done the North, Northwest, and Southwest.  The


      25        Transportation Planning Organization was just





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        updating their long-range plan, and that was


       2        important for another -- for a number of


       3        reasons.  One was we could piggyback on their


       4        work.  They had just validated their model.  And


       5        the construction of a transportation model for


       6        the scale of Duval County is about a 1.5-,


       7        $2 million deal that takes about two years to


       8        put together, so we were able to save quite a


       9        bit of money for that.


      10             There was a consensus going on that our


      11        fair share system just fundamentally wasn't


      12        working, and then 360 was adopted and the City


      13        of Jacksonville was designated as a Dense Urban


      14        Land Area, which required the City to put


      15        together a mobility plan, which is why we're


      16        here today.


      17             (Dr. Gaffney enters the proceedings.)


      18             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Since this time, the


      19        department put together a draft plan in July of


      20        2010.  Sometime around March -- I don't remember


      21        the exact date -- we put together a Mobility


      22        Task Force, which was made up of representatives


      23        from the community.  We had two CPAC members on


      24        it, we had land use attorneys, we had


      25        developers, we had a transportation engineer.





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        And from that time till now, they've been


       2        vetting our plan.  And they made a series of


       3        recommendations to us, and that's what I'm going


       4        to present to you-all today.


       5             So what the plan intends to do is it


       6        intends to put together a fee system to support


       7        the mobility of our city.  It also uses


       8        strategies, both from a land use side and from a


       9        transportation side, to support and fund our


      10        mobility.  And it also -- it does this -- what


      11        we have is a mobility plan, and we're going to


      12        adopt that plan into the comprehensive plan, but


      13        what that plan really is is a series of


      14        recommendations of policy changes to the


      15        comprehensive plan.  So it's kind of circular.


      16        We're going to adopt the mobility plan into the


      17        comp plan and then we're going to come back --


      18        actually, simultaneously, we're going to adopt


      19        those recommended policies into our


      20        comprehensive plan.


      21             One of the things I'm going to talk about,


      22        how we want to tie land use and transportation


      23        together, but I think one of the things that's


      24        important for you all is that the land use piece


      25        of it, by and large, we already did when we





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        adopted our new future land use element a couple


       2        of months -- actually, it's been about, what,


       3        three months ago?


       4             So when we started putting this together,


       5        there were four major strategies we were trying


       6        to hit.  We were trying to really, truly connect


       7        land use and transportation together because


       8        it's kind of a chicken and egg thing.  You know,


       9        what drives the car?  Is it the rooftops or is


      10        it something else?  So we wanted to really put


      11        those together.


      12             The other thing we wanted to do is we


      13        wanted to have a true multimodal plan for the


      14        city.  One of the things that happened with the


      15        city is, some time ago, the MPO, the


      16        Metropolitan Planning Organization, which is


      17        what distributes federal and state


      18        transportation funds down through to the City,


      19        it used to be part of the Planning Department.


      20        It was actually our Transportation Planning


      21        Division.  As their boundaries grew and


      22        encapsulated the other counties, there was a


      23        sense from the other counties that, because it


      24        was part of our  department, it was our


      25        Transportation Division, that it was too focused





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        on Jacksonville and they wanted to become


       2        independent, and that happened.


       3             The net effect of that is for some time we


       4        had no Transportation Division because, quite


       5        literally, that entire division was picked up


       6        and moved across the river and became what is


       7        now called the TPO, and -- and we had very


       8        little real transportation planning and we had


       9        no transportation plan for the city of


      10        Jacksonville that was not what was generated


      11        from the TPO.


      12             So we wanted a real transportation plan.


      13        We wanted a mechanism to actually fund the


      14        plan.  And while the goal of the plan in and of


      15        itself is not to incentivize growth in any way,


      16        we certainly didn't want to disincentivize,


      17        and -- and where we could, we would -- we wanted


      18        to incentivize it, and these are -- kind of the


      19        direction that I'm going to focus the


      20        presentation on in terms of the mobility plan.


      21             So when we got started, I had two teams.  I


      22        had a transportation team and I had a land use


      23        team, and I kicked them off running in separate


      24        directions in the beginning and then later on I


      25        tied them together.





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             What I asked the transportation team to do


       2        was figure out a way to calculate the average


       3        vehicle miles traveled for each traffic analysis


       4        zone within the city.  What you need to know


       5        about a traffic analysis zone is, one, there's


       6        about a thousand of them in the city.  And what


       7        those are is the fundamental unit in which our


       8        transportation model works.  For each traffic


       9        analysis zone, we have socioeconomic data in


      10        there that indicates how many trips are produced


      11        and -- and because we have that for every zone,


      12        the model can tell us not only how many trips


      13        are produced but to what other zones those trips


      14        go to.  And based off that information, we can


      15        calculate what the average vehicle mile traveled


      16        is.  And all that is is the average trip in each


      17        one of these zones.  For downtown, for instance,


      18        the average trip is nine miles.  It doesn't mean


      19        that every trip is nine miles, but just, on


      20        average, the total sum of trips that are


      21        generated in any TAZ downtown is about nine


      22        miles.


      23             And at the same time I had the land use


      24        team looking at the urban form of the city and


      25        what areas presented the best context in forms





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of -- in terms of creating the density and the


       2        requirements necessary to support transit and


       3        other forms of mobility that was not just


       4        roadways and highways.


       5             They utilized, to a large extent, the


       6        vision plans, plans from JTA, and -- and they


       7        came up with this map (indicating).  And what


       8        you'll see there -- you can't really see


       9        downtown, but downtown is kind of a light blue.


      10        But what we have is the Central Business area.


      11        You have that light pink area, which we call the


      12        Urban Priority Area, which is quite literally


      13        taken out of the vision plans as -- in terms of


      14        those areas that the community thought was most


      15        supportive of increased intensity and density to


      16        support transit.


      17             We have the lighter yellow areas, which is


      18        what we call the Urban Area, which is kind of


      19        that area that represents what we would consider


      20        a more urban form.  They have a high degree of


      21        network -- roadway network connectivity in those


      22        areas.  The light green area is what we call the


      23        Suburban Area, and then the white area is the


      24        Rural Area.


      25             If you look at these two maps, there was a





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        high correlation between the two.  So what I


       2        asked staff to do was -- we would go with this


       3        map (indicating), kind of let the land use drive


       4        the transportation side of it, and we calculated


       5        the average vehicle miles traveled for each one


       6        of these areas.


       7             So that -- that development area map is a


       8        fundamental concept to the whole plan.  And


       9        basically, again, we came up with a Central


      10        Business District, an Urban Priority Area, an


      11        Urban Area, a Suburban Area, and a Rural Area.


      12        And in the FLUE, which you have already adopted,


      13        the land use categories adjust based off of


      14        these areas.  So as you go into areas that are


      15        more dense -- that are more urbanized, each land


      16        use category allows greater densities and it


      17        allows greater intensities.  For instance, MDR


      18        can go up to 30 units per acre depending upon


      19        which level it's in.  Transportation-oriented


      20        developments, which are on a proposed route from


      21        JTA, are allowed by right in any land use


      22        category that's nonresidential.


      23             So what we did is -- as you get more


      24        towards the core, the land use categories become


      25        more flexible.  So that was one way in which we





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        attempted to compact and -- mass development in


       2        the core to support transit.  And, again, that


       3        piece has been already adopted.


       4             So here's what we came up with:  Basically,


       5        in the Central Business District it's nine


       6        miles, and then that -- as you go out to the


       7        Rural Area it's about 12-and-a-quarter.  So what


       8        you see in vehicle miles traveled is a change of


       9        about 30 percent, and that becomes important as


      10        we go to calculate the mobility fee.


      11             So as we were working on our plan, what we


      12        did was we identified through traditional


      13        measures all of the transportation modes and


      14        their deficiencies.  So we looked at all the


      15        roads that were in the city of Jacksonville and


      16        looked at their deficiencies over -- up until


      17        2030, which is the time horizon of our


      18        comprehensive plan.


      19             So we looked at all the road failures to


      20        2030, we put in the model what our expected


      21        population would be in 2030 in our future land


      22        use plan, and it generated the traffic patterns


      23        in 2030 which allowed us to determine which


      24        roadway links would fail at that time.


      25             We also looked at bicycle connectivity and





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        what bicycle needs we would need at that time,


       2        sidewalks, transit, and put together basically


       3        this large needs list of proposed transportation


       4        improvements over the 20-year time horizon that


       5        we're looking at.


       6             Some of these improvements were capacity


       7        improvements to the -- for the roadways, which


       8        is essentially just adding lanes.  Some of them


       9        were intelligent transportation systems which


      10        allow us to optimize performance on roads.  What


      11        they are is -- we put cameras on roads so that


      12        we can monitor traffic real time.  The signals


      13        are computerized so that we can -- that they're


      14        smart.  They can adjust based off traffic


      15        loads.  There's BRT, which is bus rapid transit,


      16        commuter rail, street car, all the different


      17        modes are looked at again.


      18             So then we had this big list of needs, and


      19        we put together a methodology to evaluate the


      20        needs as a total package and to prioritize


      21        them.  And in doing so, we looked at -- at each


      22        individual project.  They got points for the


      23        order of magnitude in which they mitigated


      24        deficiencies.  So if it -- if it fixed a big


      25        problem, it got a lot of points.  If it only





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        marginally fixed the problem, it didn't get very


       2        many points.  It got points based off how big a


       3        deficiency the facility was actually under as


       4        opposed to how much the improvement fixed it,


       5        whether or not it was a multimodal project, a


       6        transit project, and whether or not it improved


       7        our connectivity, and basically created a


       8        prioritization list for this entire list of


       9        projects that we determined would be potentially


      10        needed.


      11             So then we needed some kind of performance


      12        measure to determine, okay, how many projects do


      13        we need to get the performance measure?  This


      14        was an item that was discussed quite a bit in


      15        the Mobility Task Force, and basically -- I'm


      16        not going to go through all of this, but


      17        basically what we did is -- let me go to the map


      18        here.


      19             These are what we call mobility zones


      20        (indicating).  They serve a number of purposes,


      21        but the purpose for right now is that they


      22        identify our performance -- these are areas in


      23        which we measure a performance standard, and the


      24        performance standard that we adopted is that


      25        each one of these areas has to have a combined





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        mobility score of 1.5, which is essentially kind


       2        of an E-plus in the old system, but


       3        collectively, as a city, that has to have a


       4        level of service of 2.0, which is a -- which


       5        would be a D, which means we would be -- right


       6        now our level of service is an E, which


       7        basically means one more trip and the road will


       8        fail.


       9             The difference, though, is that we're also


      10        measuring -- we're no longer measuring on a


      11        link-by-link basis.  What we're measuring is the


      12        system as a whole, and so what we've done is


      13        we've identified the capacity in the system for


      14        each one of these areas across modes, so, again,


      15        that's the roadway -- across modes, rather.


      16        That's roads, transit, pedestrians, and bikes.


      17        And we came up with a weighted score system.  So


      18        what you'll see here is the weighted score


      19        system that we came up with.  And if you can


      20        just kind of remember the order here, what


      21        you'll see is, mobility zone 1 is number 1 down


      22        in the southeast corner and then it kind of goes


      23        counterclockwise in a corkscrew with number 10


      24        being the Central Business District.


      25             So as I run through this, what you'll see





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        is zones 1 and 2, which is basically the


       2        Southeast and Arlington.  The auto mode is still


       3        heavily weighted.  It's -- 60 percent of the


       4        score goes to the auto mode, 10 percent goes to


       5        transit, 15 to bicycle, and 15 to pedestrian,


       6        and the projected level of service is at an E,


       7        a 1.7.


       8             When you look at 3, 4, or 5 and 6, which is


       9        basically the outer ring of the city, what


      10        you'll see is the -- the road score is much


      11        higher.  There's just not a roadway network out


      12        there, so you'll see it's 80 percent for that


      13        outer area of the city in terms of our


      14        performance score, 5 percent for transit because


      15        there's just not enough density really to


      16        support transit out there at this time,


      17        10 percent for bicycle, and 5 percent for


      18        pedestrian.


      19             As you get into 7, 8, and 9, which is kind


      20        of that first ring of suburbanization of


      21        downtown, you've got kind of the Ortega area,


      22        the -- San Marco, Old Arlington, then north of


      23        downtown.  What you'll see is the mode shifts.


      24        It's basically equivalent there, where the --


      25        the weight is 25 percent across the board.  And





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        then, again, downtown the truck mode now takes a


       2        minor role and it's at 20 percent, transit is at


       3        30 percent, the bicycle mode is at 20, and the


       4        pedestrian mode is at 30.


       5             So the attempt here is to weigh the -- our


       6        performance in terms of total mobility within


       7        each one of these zones based off the context of


       8        that zone.  The more urban the zone is, the more


       9        we shift the weight to transit and bike/ped.


      10        The more rural the zone is, the more the weight


      11        gets shifted to the auto side of the equation.


      12             And basically what this gave us was some


      13        way of measuring whether or not we were meeting


      14        a standard, and so what we did then was we took


      15        the projects that we had previously evaluated


      16        and prioritized and just started plugging them


      17        into the model until we reached this performance


      18        standard and we reached the goal of meeting the


      19        performance standard, and what that did was it


      20        gave us a cost to meet the performance standard


      21        that the committee recommended.


      22             We also had previously looked at, you know,


      23        what the vehicle miles traveled was in our base


      24        year and what the vehicle miles traveled was in


      25        the future year, and so we knew what the





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        difference in vehicle miles traveled was.


       2             Well, if you know what the cost of the


       3        improvements are and your change in vehicle


       4        miles traveled, you can get a cost per vehicle


       5        mile, which is the fundamental basis of our


       6        mobility fee.


       7             So the mobility fee itself, there's a lot


       8        of stuff that goes into it in the background,


       9        but for the end user, this is all they see


      10        (indicating) because it's done once and this is


      11        all they see.  So it's a simple -- three


      12        multiplications.  It's the cost per vehicle mile


      13        traveled, which is $24 and some change, times


      14        the average vehicle miles traveled per


      15        development area.  And, again, downtown was 9,


      16        the rural area was 12-and-a-quarter, so that


      17        would be 24 and some change -- if you're


      18        downtown, it could be times 9 -- times the


      19        number of trips that that project generated.


      20             Now, we shifted from -- the current system


      21        uses p.m. peak trips.  We shifted from p.m. peak


      22        trips to average daily trips, and the


      23        fundamental reason behind that was we wanted to


      24        ensure that everybody ended up paying.  One of


      25        the complaints with our existing fair share





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        system is some people pay and some people don't


       2        pay.  And by moving over to an average daily


       3        mechanism, we can capture the true impact that


       4        everybody puts on the road and everybody is


       5        paying basically the same way.


       6             So this gives -- basically, everybody


       7        can -- who's in the business, could calculate


       8        this outright way before they even come and see


       9        me.  This would give them their worst-case


      10        scenario.  The projected data, vehicle trips are


      11        done the traditional way, so everybody is quite


      12        familiar with doing it.


      13             That money then goes into those mobility


      14        zones that I talked about, and each one of those


      15        zones collects a pot of money.  And then the


      16        prioritized project for that zone, once the


      17        money is there, would be done.  And then when


      18        that project is done, the next priority project


      19        for that zone comes down the queue, we fund the


      20        zone again and do the next project.


      21             Basically, what that does, by using the


      22        zones, is not only do we have the rational nexus


      23        for why we're collecting the money, but we have


      24        the rational nexus to how we're spending it.


      25             If you remember what I said was, that





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        simple A times B times C will give a developer


       2        the worst-case scenario.  We're actually -- you


       3        know, we put together some spreadsheets so that


       4        people could just do it without even talking to


       5        us.


       6             But we wanted to have a mechanism to


       7        incentivize quality growth within the city, and


       8        the methodology we chose to do that is


       9        basically -- I stole it from California.


      10        California has an air quality model, and that


      11        air quality model was largely driven off of


      12        vehicular traffic.  And the question they asked


      13        was, does the ITE manual adequately represent


      14        trip generation in more urbanized areas?  And


      15        the answer they came to was no.  One of the big


      16        reasons the answer is no is, if you understand


      17        the way the trip generation manuals work is --


      18        they're generated from studies submitted by


      19        transportation engineers to the ITE, and those


      20        studies are based off developments that have


      21        been built.


      22             Well, all the developments that have been


      23        built -- the vast majority of developments that


      24        have been built in the last 20 or 30 years are


      25        suburban-based developments.  They're not --





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        they're not a more urban-style development.  And


       2        so there was a belief that they overrepresented


       3        the trip generation in a more urbanized area.


       4        So they came up with a series of adjustments to


       5        traditional ITE trip generation, and those


       6        adjustments -- if you're familiar with internal


       7        capture, which is kind of the idea that if you


       8        have a site and you've got a strip center at


       9        that site and there's an outparcel with a bank


      10        and there's another outparcel with a restaurant,


      11        that somebody may drive to that site, go to the


      12        bank, get some money, go over and eat at the


      13        restaurant, pick up groceries, and go home.


      14        Well, that's not three separate trips; that's


      15        one trip, and that site has internally captured


      16        the trip.


      17             Basically, the way our trip reductions work


      18        is it's kind of like a super internal capture.


      19        What it does is it looks at a half-mile radius


      20        around the site.  What we look at is the number


      21        of roadway intersections within the half-mile


      22        radius, which gives us a measure of roadway


      23        connectivity.  We look at the number of transit


      24        stops that meet certain headway conditions


      25        within that half mile.  We look at the





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        residential density because that's actually one


       2        of the largest contributors to trip generation.


       3        We look at whether or not there's local-serving


       4        retail and employment, and there's a set of


       5        equations and you just plug in the numbers and


       6        it gives you a trip reduction off the


       7        traditional ITE measure.


       8             We did some analyses across the city, and


       9        basically in the rural/suburban area you get


      10        maybe a 2 percent reduction off the trip count.


      11        To be honest, that's probably just statistical


      12        noise, but it is what it is so we're


      13        (inaudible).


      14             As you move into the urban -- the urban


      15        area, it moves up to around 12 percent,


      16        something like that.  The urban priority is


      17        about 20.


      18             We didn't do the downtown; we probably


      19        should.  But when we were doing the analyses,


      20        the idea at the time was that the downtown will


      21        be a separate TCA because at the time the comp


      22        plan actually stated such.  The Mobility Task


      23        Force committee was -- they felt strongly that


      24        it should be part of an overall plan.  JEDC


      25        agreed, and so now it's part of our plan, but my





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        suspicion is -- you know, you're looking at


       2        25-plus percent reduction in trip credits


       3        there.


       4             So that's how we're looking at


       5        incentivizing some design criteria that we think


       6        is important.


       7             Updating the plan.  The plan -- even though


       8        the plan has a 20-year horizon, it goes to 2030,


       9        the reality is it's a five-year plan.  We plan


      10        on updating the plan every five years in


      11        conjunction with the TPO because that will


      12        allows us to cost share with the TPO and the


      13        development of the model.  It will also allow us


      14        to work more closely with them in prioritizing


      15        federal and state projects in the city.


      16             The other thing is we're treading on some


      17        pretty new ground here, so there isn't a whole


      18        lot of baseline data for us in terms of whether


      19        or not we're meeting goals.  And so over the


      20        first five years and probably after that, we


      21        want to look at what data sets we can collect to


      22        see whether or not we're -- we're actually


      23        achieving the goal of reducing vehicle miles


      24        traveled.


      25             So what are the policy implications of all





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of this?  The big one is, because, naturally,


       2        the price of the mobility fee declines as you


       3        get into a more urbanized area, we're


       4        incentivizing infill and redevelopment.  That's


       5        best case.  Worst case, we're not


       6        disincentivizing it because the way our existing


       7        concurrency system works is, if you build in an


       8        urbanized area, there's a lot of traffic there,


       9        so most likely your concurrency is going to fail


      10        so you're going to have to pay your fair share.


      11        But if you move out to the hinterlands and the


      12        greenspace where there's no people, the roadway


      13        capacity is probably there, so you can build for


      14        free.  So if it doesn't incentivize infill and


      15        redevelopment, it at least takes away the


      16        disincentivation of our existing system.


      17             The trip credits incentivize quality growth


      18        by giving credit for more compact, mixed-use


      19        types of development.  We also apply these for


      20        greenfield sites because even if you're in a


      21        greenfield site, having these design attributes


      22        of a highly-graded network street and mix of


      23        uses, it -- it's still desirable out there.  Not


      24        only that, but because what we look at is a


      25        half-mile radius, I'm hopeful that it would





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        encourage collocating development as opposed to


       2        just a completely isolated island out there.


       3             The plan doesn't -- while it is regulatory


       4        in nature, we don't -- we don't intend to say,


       5        "No, you can't do that."  Basically, you can do


       6        everything that you can do right now underneath


       7        our comprehensive plan, but what we've done is


       8        that we've provided incentives for you to do it


       9        different.


      10             I'm a big proponent of the carrot versus


      11        the stick.  I think for the most part people


      12        will pursue the carrot and do what they can to


      13        avoid the stick, so I'm hopeful that I -- that


      14        this will be more effective.


      15             I'm not naive to think that -- well, I am


      16        naive, but I'm not naive enough to think that


      17        this is the only thing that drives development


      18        decisions, because it's not.  But in those


      19        situations, what we have is a use looking for a


      20        site as opposed to a site looking for a use.


      21             I can tell you that when the market was


      22        hot, we had people coming to us during test


      23        fair shares across the city trying to find the


      24        cheapest place to do their development because


      25        they had a use and they were just looking for a





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        site.


       2             Clearly, if you have a site, you're stuck


       3        with your site and it is what it is.  But in


       4        those cases, when our market gets hotter again


       5        and we have uses looking for sites, I think this


       6        will help guide them there.


       7             The other is it focuses on the future.  We


       8        have a 20-year transportation plan, plus a land


       9        use plan that goes with it, but ultimately --


      10        and I -- and to some degree, I think most


      11        importantly, is that it's predictable, it's


      12        fair, and it's efficient.


      13             It's predictable in the fact that basically


      14        anybody can calculate what it will be.  It's not


      15        dependent upon the fact of when you apply, who


      16        applied before you, when we assign a roadway


      17        contract, which leads right into fair.


      18             Our existing system right now, you can have


      19        three developers on a road.  Developer A comes


      20        in, does a development on the left side of the


      21        road.  There's capacity on the road, so he gets


      22        to go free.  He consumes all the capacity on the


      23        road in his development.


      24             Developer B comes in, wants to do a


      25        development directly across the street on the





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        right side of the road, the same size, same


       2        scale, same development, there's no capacity on


       3        the road, so he has to pay a fair share.


       4             Between the time that he signs the contract


       5        for the fair share and the time the department


       6        recognizes that there's a problem there and we


       7        get a contract out to improve the road, we sign


       8        the contract.  The way the system works, as soon


       9        as we sign the contract to initiate construction


      10        of improvements to the road, that capacity is


      11        added to the roadway system.


      12             Developer C comes in, locates directly


      13        adjacent to B, across the street from A, there's


      14        now capacity on the road, he gets to go free.


      15             So our existing system is completely


      16        unfair.


      17             And, lastly, it's efficient in the sense


      18        that not only are we addressing how we're


      19        collecting the money, but we're addressing how


      20        the money is spent up front.  Right now our


      21        existing fair share system, the money goes into


      22        a pot, but there's no -- we don't know, until


      23        some future point, what that money is going to


      24        be spent to.  And the reality is, because


      25        there's money sitting there that's not actually





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        tied to any project, bits and pieces of it gets


       2        pulled out to do smaller projects and we never


       3        accumulate enough money to do something that is


       4        truly meaningful.


       5             I close my comments on just kind of a


       6        comparison of the fair share system and the


       7        mobility fee in terms of actual cost and scale.


       8             We did the analysis where we looked at


       9        2009, all the fair shares that we've done in


      10        2009, and then we reevaluated them based off of


      11        this proposed mobility plan.  And basically what


      12        we came up with is that the mobility fee, on


      13        average -- not in all cases; some cases the


      14        mobility fee actually turned out to be more than


      15        our existing fair share.  But, on average, the


      16        mobility fee was about 53 percent the cost of


      17        the fair share.


      18             Now, there are a number of reasons for


      19        that, but I think one of the big reasons is the


      20        fact that everybody pays now.  So because


      21        everybody pays, you don't have anybody who's


      22        getting a free ride, which means the guy who's


      23        getting the free ride is now going to have to


      24        pay where he didn't have to pay before.  But as


      25        a result of that, everybody gets to go at a





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        lesser cost.


       2             And I guess, with that, with the


       3        indulgence -- the chair of our Mobility Task


       4        Force, T.R. Hainline, would like to make a few




       6             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Please.


       7             Mr. Hainline.


       8             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Applause.)


       9             MR. HAINLINE:  First of all, I wish I had


      10        brought hot cocoa to sell, make some money here.


      11             I was the chair of the Mobility Fee Task


      12        Force, which was formed when the Planning


      13        Department first proposed its draft mobility


      14        plan.  Actually, they first proposed it last


      15        December and in January, and the administration


      16        formed this Mobility Fee Task Force with input


      17        from the council, and just --


      18             We have met, since February, every two


      19        weeks, so hours and hours and hours have gone


      20        into vetting.  And what I want to give you, in


      21        just a minute or two, is the -- is a concept for


      22        how thoroughly this plan and this fee have been


      23        vetted.


      24             And let me just mention the members of our


      25        task force.  It's Mike Anania, who's from





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the -- and most of them are here today.  Mike


       2        Anania, who's from the Arlington CPAC;


       3        Councilman Bishop; Brenda Ezell; Mike Getchell,


       4        who's from the North CPAC, Jim Gilmore; Curtis


       5        Hart; Chris Jones; Staci Rewis; Bob Rhodes; and


       6        Jim Robinson.


       7             And, as I said, we've met every two weeks


       8        since March, and the attendance -- we never had


       9        a quorum problem.  We -- really, almost


      10        everybody came to almost all the meetings and we


      11        had great attendance at these meetings, and


      12        we -- we heard from diverse experts in this


      13        area.  Obviously, we heard a lot from the


      14        Planning Department and its consultant, who


      15        prepared the original mobility study that backed


      16        up the plan, which is Ghyabi & Associates.  We


      17        heard from the Office of General Counsel,


      18        obviously; FDOT; JTA.  JEDC talked to us about


      19        downtown and its implications.  And we got


      20        regular input and attendance from not only the


      21        staff but also from the MPO, the Regional


      22        Council.  And, again, staff from FDOT, JTA, and


      23        JEDC were at almost all of our meetings.


      24             We thoroughly debated all the aspects that


      25        Bill went through.  Our debate resulted in





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        revisions in the analysis, the methodology, and


       2        the results of the study and, therefore, what


       3        the fee actually proposes and says.


       4             And, ultimately, at our last meeting in


       5        November, we unanimously recommended this plan


       6        and this fee to the Planning Commission and to


       7        the Council.


       8             I would remind everybody, as Bill did, that


       9        the status quo is unacceptable, undesirable.  We


      10        have a fair share system that no one likes.


      11        It's wildly unpredictable, both as to when it


      12        applies and what the results of that application


      13        will be.  And, as a result, because of that


      14        unpredictablity, it's an enemy of economic


      15        development.


      16             This fee represents a more broad-based,


      17        more predictable system and a system that is


      18        part of an overall plan to improve mobility and


      19        provide quality growth.  And that's one reason,


      20        I think, why everybody, from all aspects on the


      21        committee, bought off on it and supports it.


      22             On behalf of our whole task force, I


      23        definitely want to thank the staff.  At many


      24        junctures, we asked them to look at things from


      25        a different perspective and redo analyses, and





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        they never hesitated, they never -- you know,


       2        sometimes people can defend the work that's in


       3        it and kind of get stuck.  They never did.  They


       4        responded to every comment and input and request


       5        that we gave to them, and so tremendous thanks


       6        to the staff for their response to our questions


       7        and our requests.


       8             Obviously, I thank my task force and also


       9        the participants, everybody who attended all of


      10        our meetings, for their hard work.  And, as I


      11        say, I'm here and many of us are here to answer


      12        any questions that y'all have, and we thank you


      13        for your attendance today.


      14             Thank you.


      15             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Thanks, T.R.  Appreciate


      16        that.  Thank you very much for all your work,


      17        and the entire committee and staff and all who


      18        participated.


      19             I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Bishop to


      20        lead the discussion or any questions, but -- and


      21        I have a couple of questions of my own.


      22             First of all, one is more legal,


      23        legislative.  What council action ultimately is


      24        required with adoption of the mobility fee, and


      25        is there legislation drafted, and what is the





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        status of all of that?  Bill, if you can answer


       2        that or General Counsel.


       3             MR. BISHOP:  We have to pass legislation.


       4        Where it is in the process, that I don't know.


       5             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  It's being introduced


       6        tonight.


       7             PRESIDENT WEBB:  It's being introduced


       8        tonight.  Okay.  Good.


       9             MR. HAINLINE:  Bill, you might want to


      10        explain this as a transmittal.


      11             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  This is -- because this


      12        is a -- actually an amendment to our


      13        comprehensive plan, it's being introduced


      14        tonight.  What the council is going to recommend


      15        is that we transfer it -- transmit it to the


      16        State for comments.  They will then provide us




      18             We'll have about three months to look at


      19        those comments and address them, and then we'll


      20        react to them and then submit the plan for final


      21        adoption.  The goal is to be adopted -- the


      22        statute requires adoption by July of 2011, and


      23        our schedule meets that.


      24             MR. BISHOP:  Bill, you also want to talk


      25        just a little bit about the relationship of this





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        proposed plan with the status of Senate Bill 360


       2        that got thrown out and is being tweaked in the


       3        next session?  How is all this going to mesh in


       4        what we're doing?  Is it going to mesh in a


       5        fashion and a time line that will, in a sense,


       6        go into effect or is it going to be sitting in a


       7        holding pattern for a while until the


       8        legislature gets their act together?


       9             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Sure.


      10             One of the things that happened shortly


      11        after we finished our initial work is that the


      12        court determined Senate Bill 360 to be


      13        unconstitutional, and what happened shortly


      14        thereafter was that the State appealed that


      15        decision.


      16             Having gone through a number of these


      17        situations before, it's my opinion that the


      18        appeal process will take longer than it will


      19        take for the legislature to fix it.


      20             My understanding is that there's already


      21        three draft bills out there right now.  One of


      22        them addresses the separation issue because 360


      23        had language in it that covered multiple


      24        chapters, and apparently that's


      25        unconstitutional, so they separated that out.





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Another thing was that it was found to be


       2        an unfunded mandate, and my suspicion is the


       3        simple cure for that is to make it optional --


       4             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Since when has that been


       5        unconstitutional?


       6             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Well, you know, the


       7        irony is -- seeing how you brought that up, I'll


       8        talk about that a minute.


       9             The irony of the situation was, they didn't


      10        find the fact that we had to do these roadway


      11        improvements unconstitu- -- an unfunded


      12        mandate.  What they found was an unfunded


      13        mandate was the cost of the legislative process


      14        to adopt the plan, which -- how is not


      15        everything, then, an unfunded mandate?


      16             But be that as it may, to answer your


      17        question, I think we're fine.


      18             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.


      19             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  One, I think the appeal


      20        process will go beyond July of 2011.  There's a


      21        House bill that says if you adopt anything in


      22        Senate Bill 360, you're presumed to be cured of


      23        the -- of the defects in the law and you can go


      24        forward underneath that, so I think we'll be


      25        covered by that.  I also believe that the





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        legislature, this cycle, will fix the issues


       2        with Senate Bill 360.


       3             So, you know, we had a discussion as part


       4        of the Mobility Task Force, what to do once the


       5        news came out that the court found it


       6        unconstitutional, and the decision was to drive


       7        forward.  We'll address whatever issues come up


       8        when they come up because, quite frankly, this


       9        is just the right thing for the City to do.  And


      10        if we have to go up and deal with our


      11        legislature, we'll do that.


      12             MR. BISHOP:  There's just a couple of


      13        comments I want to make.


      14             Number one, Bill, you and your team should


      15        be commended for all the work that went into


      16        this.  And T.R., in particular, should be


      17        commended for running the committee.  It was


      18        very well run.  The whole thing took a very


      19        complex topic, it made it very understandable.


      20        And your presentation this morning also did


      21        exactly the same thing.  This is not something


      22        that's easy to get your hands wrapped around,


      23        especially something -- when it's a change in


      24        mindset from what we've been dealing with for


      25        the last 25 years or so.





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And to echo your -- this is good for the


       2        city.  This is good stuff right here, and I


       3        think it will do -- it's probably not going to


       4        work exactly like we think it will, but I think


       5        at the end of the day it's going to work far


       6        better than what we have right now.


       7             And I guess, Jack, at that point, if


       8        there's questions from people about where it is


       9        at the moment, what it's about, we have all the


      10        right people here that can answer those


      11        questions.


      12             PRESIDENT WEBB:  The mobility fee addresses


      13        vehicular transportation, much like fair share;


      14        is that correct?


      15             MR. BISHOP:  Correct.


      16             PRESIDENT WEBB:  All right.  However,


      17        the -- the transportation plan, as developed by


      18        the Planning Department, is multimodal in focus;


      19        is that --


      20             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  The fee actually


      21        applies towards all modes.


      22             PRESIDENT WEBB:  All modes.  So it goes


      23        in -- so your mobility fee money goes into a


      24        bucket, then it goes into different subbuckets


      25        being --





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Well, it doesn't go


       2        into different subbuckets.


       3             What we have is a wholistic list of all


       4        modes and all needs and then we prioritize


       5        that.  So in some mobility zones the number one


       6        priority might be a transit project or it might


       7        be a pedestrian-based project or it might be a


       8        road improvement.


       9             PRESIDENT WEBB:  How does that work in


      10        conjunction with the JTA and their bus rapid


      11        transit and their multimodal discussions as


      12        well?


      13             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Well, that's -- most of


      14        what we've done for JTA is -- we addressed in


      15        the Future Land Use Element.  The big one was


      16        allowing TODs by right on a proposed transit


      17        route as long as you're in a nonresidential land


      18        use category, so there won't be -- you won't


      19        need a land use change, you won't need anything


      20        to do that.


      21             There are other tools that we stuck in


      22        there, but from a funding mechanism -- you know,


      23        a lot of how the funding will actually occur I


      24        think is going to be addressed in the ordinance


      25        because the next part of this -- what we're





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        working on now is the actual local ordinance


       2        which implements these comp plan policies, so


       3        that will come before you at the same time that


       4        we bring the comp plan for adoption.


       5             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Given the nature of the


       6        system, these are capital dollars, not operating


       7        dollars?


       8             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  These are capital


       9        dollars, no operating dollars.


      10             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Bondable?


      11             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  No.


      12             MR. BISHOP:  It's too unpredictable.


      13             MR. DAY:  I have some questions --


      14             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Please.


      15             MR. DAY:  -- if you don't mind.


      16             And I agree too, this is definitely better


      17        than the fair share system that we currently


      18        have for a lot of reasons.


      19             What's going to happen with the current


      20        fair share agreements that we have in place?  I


      21        know you analyzed them, but what is going to be


      22        sort of allowed in the legislation for current


      23        fair share agreements and even current fair


      24        share reservations?


      25             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  The way the system we





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        proposed would work is that, if you had a fair


       2        share, then come adoption of the mobility plan


       3        you'll have a choice to make once you decide to


       4        pull a permit.  You can either maintain your


       5        existing fair share, because that's a signed


       6        contract between the City and the developer, or


       7        you can look at that fair share and go, "Wow,


       8        I'd be better off going with the mobility plan,"


       9        vacate your fair share, and then just come under


      10        the new mobility fee.


      11             If you have what we call a CRC, which is


      12        reserved capacity, because you got it free and


      13        you reserved it, then -- those have time limits


      14        on them.  So you'll be allowed to keep that and


      15        then they'll just time out at some point in the


      16        future, so you either end up using them or


      17        losing them.


      18             MR. DAY:  Right.


      19             So once this goes into effect, you're not


      20        going to be reissuing those reservations for the


      21        capacity, correct?


      22             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Well, those mechanisms


      23        to extend their life, but at some point they do


      24        die.


      25             MR. DAY:  Right.





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yes.  And we -- there's


       2        no -- there will be no -- this system has no


       3        reservation system to it at all, so basically


       4        calculate your fee, come in, pay your fee, pull


       5        the permit and go.  So there's no reservations


       6        on our part at all.


       7             MR. BISHOP:  It creates a baseline for


       8        everybody to operate on as opposed to the


       9        current system.  The analogy that Bill used,


      10        that you might -- somebody might come in today,


      11        pay nothing, capacity is gone, the next guy pays


      12        now with the hypothetical road project, then the


      13        third guy comes on and doesn't pay anymore.


      14        Everybody is operating on the same baseline.


      15             MR. DAY:  Right, and I -- I think that's a


      16        better method.  I was just kind of curious what


      17        happened to people that currently have --


      18             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  People who have


      19        entitlements now will be allowed to keep those


      20        entitlements until they use them or time out.


      21             MR. DAY:  Okay.


      22             MR. HARDESTY:  But I heard there was an


      23        extension of the --


      24             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  There are mechanisms to


      25        extend different development entitlements, but





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        they all time out eventually.  They can't be


       2        extended indefinitely.


       3             MR. HARDESTY:  Wouldn't it be better,


       4        though, to limit that time extender operation in


       5        a free pass kind of situation so you would


       6        essentially incentivize them to use it right now


       7        to get folks working and building now?  And then


       8        they have the -- then they're basically going


       9        into the mobility plan without a --


      10             MR. BISHOP:  I would argue that's a


      11        separate policy decision, independent of the


      12        mobility plan itself.


      13             PRESIDENT WEBB:  I would agree with that.


      14             What is the current mechanism for extension


      15        of the reservation?  That's a council action, is


      16        it not?


      17             MR. BISHOP:  There's some procedural --


      18             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  That's administrative.


      19             MR. BISHOP:  -- administrative procedures


      20        in place, depending on what the entitlements


      21        are.  There's a half a dozen different


      22        entitlement systems out there that various


      23        people are operating under.  They all have --


      24             (Simultaneous speaking.)


      25             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  You know, like in terms





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of fair share, which would have to come back


       2        before council -- I don't think the Department


       3        would recommend the extension of a fair share


       4        after the mobility fee was adopted, but if


       5        you -- if you had a ten-year fair share that was


       6        a signed contract, right now, it had eight years


       7        left on it, then --


       8             PRESIDENT WEBB:  It is what it is.


       9             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  -- it is what it is.


      10             MR. BISHOP:  It is what it -- it's a


      11        contract.  So you then decide, does it make


      12        sense to you, personally, for your development


      13        to keep that contract, or in the case of what


      14        Bill is saying, a lot of these mobility fees are


      15        going to be less than fair share, so you might


      16        say it's not worth it to keep it and just simply


      17        start over.


      18             MR. DAY:  Do you know -- I know you gave


      19        a -- you said $24 per average daily trip.  Do


      20        you have an idea, sort of a -- one of those


      21        subdivision -- or suburban areas, what it would


      22        cost per house?  I mean, it's hard -- I


      23        guess --


      24             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yeah.  Actually, you


      25        know, if I -- what I'm going to use is 10 for





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        vehicle miles traveled because it will make the


       2        math easy and I can do that in my head.  And 10


       3        actually kind of represents the --


       4             MR. DAY:  It's in between that 9 and 12.


       5             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yeah, it actually


       6        represents kind of a citywide average, is


       7        10 vehicle miles traveled.


       8             But the average house, in terms of average


       9        daily trips, generates 10 trips.  So if you are


      10        in a zone that is, you know, 10 vehicle miles


      11        traveled, it would be 10 times 10.  So that's


      12        100 times $24 per vehicle mile.  That's $2,400


      13        per house.


      14             MR. DAY:  Just to -- that's a little


      15        easier, I think, to understand what that, you


      16        know, cost is because I know, you know, counties


      17        that do impact fees for traffic and, you know,


      18        some other mechanisms.  It's easier to sort of


      19        compare, you know, where is Duval falling in --


      20        you know, compared to those.


      21             When is the proposed fee supposed to be


      22        paid in the legislation?  Is it paid --


      23             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  It's paid --


      24             MR. DAY:  Is it paid before development?


      25        Is it paid when the house is built?





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  It's paid at the time


       2        the permit is pulled.


       3             MR. DAY:  Oh, the permit.


       4             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  So you can't pull a


       5        permit until you pay the fee.


       6             MR. DAY:  Has there been discussion to have


       7        that permit paid when the actual house is built


       8        or the improvement is made that is causing that,


       9        just as far as helping -- you know, not


      10        disincentivize --


      11             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  There hasn't.


      12             I guess my concern there would be


      13        implementation.  It's real easy for us to


      14        control whether or not you got a permit.  But


      15        once that house is on the ground, then how do we


      16        go back and -- it just opens up a whole --


      17             MR. BISHOP:  That's pretty reasonable


      18        because when you pull a permit, you're -- you


      19        don't generally pull permits until you're ready


      20        to build.


      21             MR. DAY:  You're talking about a permit on


      22        a house, not the permit on the development?


      23             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Correct.


      24             MR. DAY:  Okay.  I was thinking a ten-set


      25        permit versus a house permit.





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HAINLINE:  If I would just add,


       2        remember that what we're talking about now is


       3        the transmittal of the plan amendment.  The plan


       4        amendment will come back.  We'll be talking in


       5        the spring, in the March, April, May time


       6        period, about the adoption of the amendments and


       7        then the actual ordinance to be adopted, and the


       8        ordinance will spell out the details of --


       9             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Questions you're


      10        asking.


      11             MR. HAINLINE:  -- the question that you're


      12        asking, which is, do you pay the actual building


      13        permit of the house or is the permit for the


      14        subdivision, you know, horizontally?


      15             And the same vetting process through our


      16        task force will occur for that ordinance and


      17        those detailed implementing questions, so -- so


      18        the question you're asking, which is very, very


      19        important, particularly to home builders, is


      20        going to be vetted through the same process and


      21        we'll analyze that from all different angles,


      22        so --


      23             MR. DAY:  And I had one more question.


      24             How are DRIs affected or sort of large


      25        developments where part of what they're doing is





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        improving transportation -- I know previously in


       2        fair share there was concessions made for -- if


       3        you're building this road, it equals, you know,


       4        some amount of fair share cost or -- you know,


       5        is -- are they still going to be looked at


       6        separately or --


       7             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  DRIs are basically


       8        vested from the mobility plan because they have


       9        a development order which requires them.  It's


      10        essentially and conceptually kind of like a big


      11        fair share contract.  They have a development


      12        order that allows them to do certain


      13        developments in exchange for certain


      14        infrastructure.


      15             So the -- so they're -- the plan actually


      16        explicitly vests them.  So whatever entitlements


      17        they have as a DRI, they have.


      18             MR. DAY:  And will there be DRIs after this


      19        gets implemented or will they go away completely


      20        or --


      21             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Senate Bill 360


      22        eliminated DRIs from Dense Urban Land Areas.


      23             MR. HOLT:  When did you get your trip


      24        numbers?


      25             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  The trip numbers?





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             What's the date on the -- the base year was


       2        2008?


       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  You mean for the model?


       4             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Yeah.


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  2008.


       6             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  2008.


       7             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Any other questions from


       8        the Planning Commission?


       9             COMMISSION MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Okay.  Bill, anything


      11        else?


      12             MR. BISHOP:  The only thing --


      13             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Any other questions from


      14        the crowd?


      15             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      16             MR. BISHOP:  The only other thing I want to


      17        add is when this -- and I'm not sure how the


      18        Planning Commission is going to do it, but when


      19        it gets to TEU, we will also have a presentation


      20        of the -- it may be what Bill just did now, it


      21        may be a little bit different, but a


      22        presentation to summarize what it's all about


      23        and have our own public hearing about it


      24        because -- since it's just now come out, there


      25        may be questions that people think of between





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        now and January when we do -- when it comes up


       2        to committee, I want to make sure that everybody


       3        has a chance to weigh in on it and -- and get


       4        their opinion -- get any questions answered that


       5        they have because this is a big deal, a big


       6        change.


       7             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Bill, I would ask as well


       8        that TEU conduct a special meeting on this


       9        matter specifically and do it after 5 o'clock,


      10        maybe 5:30 in the afternoon --


      11             MR. BISHOP:  That's a good idea.


      12             PRESIDENT WEBB:  -- so people have an


      13        opportunity to participate.


      14             MR. BISHOP:  That's a very good idea.


      15        We'll do that.


      16             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Okay.


      17             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  And if I could just


      18        interject.  It will be at LUZ as well.


      19             PRESIDENT WEBB:  Well, why don't you do a


      20        joint meeting with LUZ and TEU, like at 5:30 on


      21        Wednesday or something.


      22             MR. BISHOP:  That's a very good idea.


      23             PRESIDENT WEBB:  All right.  Does it go


      24        before Rules at all?  I think it may.


      25             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Where is -- does it go





        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        before Rules?


       2             MR. REINGOLD:  It's my understanding right


       3        now that the bill would be going to TEU and to


       4        the Land Use and Zoning Committee.


       5             PRESIDENT WEBB:  That's fine.


       6             Okay.


       7             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.


       8             PRESIDENT WEBB:  All right.


       9             MR. BISHOP:  Well, we'll get that meeting


      10        set up and then make an announcement on when it


      11        is, give everybody plenty of time to plan for


      12        it.


      13             PRESIDENT WEBB:  All right.  Anything


      14        else?


      15             COUNCIL MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      16             COMMISSION MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      17             PRESIDENT WEBB:  All right.  Thanks,


      18        everyone, for being here today.  I appreciate


      19        you all coming down.


      20             And, Bill, thank you for all your work.


      21             (The above proceedings were adjourned at


      22        11:06 a.m.)


      23                         -  -  -









        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                  C E R T I F I C A T E




       3   STATE OF FLORIDA:


       4   COUNTY OF DUVAL :




       6             I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was


       7   authorized to and did stenographically report the


       8   foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a


       9   true and complete record of my stenographic notes.


      10             Dated this 21st day of December, 2010.








      14                                 Diane M. Tropia



























        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203