1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE


       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING


       3                         COMMITTEE






       6             Proceedings held on Tuesday, November 2,


       7   2010, commencing at 5:00 p.m., City Hall, Council


       8   Chambers, 1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before


       9   Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State


      10   of Florida at Large.




      12   PRESENT:


      13        JOHN CRESCIMBENI, Chair.

                RAY HOLT, Vice Chair.

      14        WILLIAM BISHOP, Committee Member.

                DON REDMAN, Committee Member.

      15        DICK BROWN, Committee Member.

                REGGIE BROWN, Committee Member.



      17   ALSO PRESENT:


      18        KEVIN HYDE, City Council Member.

                JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

      19        SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

                FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.

      20        KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.

                DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.

      21        JASON GABRIEL, Office of General Counsel.

                CHERRY SHAW, Office of General Counsel.

      22        MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.

                SHARONDA DAVIS, Legislative Assistant.


                                 -  -  -








        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   November 2, 2010                        5:00 p.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening, everyone.


       5             We're going to call the Tuesday,


       6        November 2, 2010, meeting of the Land Use and


       7        Zoning Committee to order, and we will begin by


       8        having everyone introduce themselves on the


       9        record, starting with Mr. Crofts.


      10             And again, Mr. Crofts, we -- the committee


      11        and myself extend our sympathies to you with


      12        regard to the loss of your sister, and please


      13        know that you're in our hearts and prayers in


      14        these tough times.  We appreciate you being here


      15        tonight.


      16             MR. CROFTS:  Thank you.  I appreciate


      17        that.


      18             With that, my name is John Crofts, and I'm


      19        deputy director of Planning and represent the


      20        Planning Department this evening.


      21             MR. KELLY:  Sean Kelly, Planning and


      22        Development.


      23             MR. HUXFORD:  Folks Huxford, Planning and


      24        Development.


      25             MR. AVERY:  Ken Avery, Planning and




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Development.


       2             MR. REINGOLD:  Dylan Reingold, Office of


       3        General Counsel.


       4             MR. D. BROWN:  Dick Brown, Council


       5        District 13.


       6             MR. R. BROWN:  Reginald Brown, Council


       7        District 10.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  And I'm John Crescimbeni,


       9        at-large, Group 2.


      10             MR. HOLT:  Ray Holt, District 11.


      11             MR. BISHOP:  Bill Bishop, District 2.


      12             MR. REDMAN:  Don Redman, District 4.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you,


      14        everyone.


      15             And we do have an excused absence from


      16        Councilmember Joost tonight, so he will not be


      17        here.


      18             Mr. Reingold, before we begin with the


      19        opening statement, we have a bill on tonight's


      20        agenda, it's on page 2, item 1, it's the


      21        Internet cafe bill, 2010-326.  This was deferred


      22        in Public Health and Safety.  There's nothing


      23        preventing us from taking it up tonight.  We


      24        have kind of a short agenda, but I'm going to


      25        leave it up to the committee.  If you want to




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        take this up, we can do so.  If we're going to


       2        do that, I'm going to have Mr. Reingold make a


       3        phone call and get Jason Teal down here and


       4        whoever else had something to do with this bill,


       5        but --


       6             By a show of hands, does anybody have an


       7        objection to not taking this bill up tonight?


       8             An objection to taking the bill up, I'm


       9        sorry, objection to.


      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Everybody okay with taking


      12        the bill up tonight?


      13             MR. BISHOP:  (Indicating.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Bishop.


      15             MR. BISHOP:  My suggestion, Mr. Chairman,


      16        is if it was deferred in PHS, if there was an


      17        expectation that it may be deferred tonight


      18        here, then I would suggest we do that because


      19        there may be some people that would like to see


      20        what's going on that aren't here.  That's my


      21        only thought on that.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you,


      23        Mr. Bishop.


      24             Mr. Brown.


      25             MR. R. BROWN:  Yes.  To the body, I was




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        there today at PHS, and it was a recommendation


       2        of the sheriff that we defer discussion on this


       3        until he has his opportunity to express himself


       4        with Councilman Hyde.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Anybody else?


       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, it sounds like we're


       8        going to defer it.  We do have a public hearing


       9        on it this evening.  We will open the public


      10        hearing and continue it at the appropriate time.


      11             Mr. Reingold, we won't need anybody else to


      12        come down, so if you'll begin by reading the


      13        opening statement, please.


      14             MR. REINGOLD:  Absolutely.  Thank you,


      15        everybody, and happy Election Day.


      16             Anybody who would like to address the


      17        committee must fill out a yellow speaker's card


      18        in its entirety.  The yellow speakers' cards are


      19        located on the desk up front, near the podium.


      20        Once completed, please return the speaker's card


      21        to the basket on the front desk.


      22             Any person who lobbies the City for


      23        compensation is considered a lobbyist and is


      24        therefore required to register their lobbying


      25        activity with the City Council secretary.  If




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        you are a lobbyist and have not registered with


       2        the City Council secretary, you will not be


       3        permitted to address the committee tonight.


       4             Because a verbatim transcript of this


       5        meeting will be prepared by a court reporter, it


       6        is important that you speak clearly into the


       7        microphone when you address the committee.  It's


       8        also important that only one person speak at a


       9        time.


      10             Any tangible material submitted with a


      11        speaker's presentation, such as documents,


      12        photographs, plans, drawings, et cetera, shall


      13        become a permanent part of the public record and


      14        will be retained by this committee.


      15             As a courtesy, please switch any cell


      16        phones, pagers, or audible devices to a silent


      17        mode.


      18             Additionally, there shall be no public


      19        display of support or opposition, so please


      20        refrain from applause or speaking out of turn.


      21             Items are generally addressed in the order


      22        in which they are listed on the agenda.  Copies


      23        of the agenda are also located on the desk up


      24        front, near the podium.


      25             On occasion, items may be heard out of




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        order for the sake of efficiency or to


       2        accommodate scheduling conflicts.


       3             Unless there is a formal hearing on a


       4        particular item, each member of the public is


       5        limited to a three-minute presentation.


       6        Presentations should be focused, concise, and


       7        address only the item pending before the


       8        committee.


       9             Prior to addressing the committee, please


      10        state your name and your address for the court


      11        reporter.


      12             Decisions on rezonings, including PUDs,


      13        waivers of road frontage, sign waivers, and


      14        appeals, are all considered quasi-judicial in


      15        nature and certain protocals will be followed


      16        for those matters.


      17             First, each council member must disclose on


      18        the record any ex-parte communications they have


      19        had with any members of the public prior to the


      20        hearing on each applicable item.  This includes


      21        a brief statement of when the communication took


      22        place, who the communication was with, and what


      23        the subject matter of the communication was


      24        about.


      25             Second, the normal format is to allow the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        applicant or agent thereof to make their


       2        presentation first, followed by members of the


       3        public who wish to speak in support of the item,


       4        then members of the public who are in opposition


       5        will be allowed to speak.


       6             After all of the public comments have been


       7        received, the applicant will have a brief


       8        opportunity to wrap up or present a brief


       9        rebuttal.  The wrap-up or rebuttal shall be


      10        limited to the issues brought up by the


      11        speakers.


      12             In some instances, the Chair may permit a


      13        concise surrebuttal or response to the


      14        applicant's rebuttal, which will be followed by


      15        a brief final response by the applicant.


      16             Finally, all quasi-judicial decisions must


      17        be based on substantial competent evidence,


      18        which means that the committee's decision must


      19        be supported by fact-based testimony or expert


      20        testimony and not generalized concerns or


      21        opinions.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Reingold.


      23             I also want to thank Mr. Redman for


      24        chairing the agenda meeting earlier this


      25        afternoon.  I was tied up and he stepped up to




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the plate and took care of that business for me,


       2        so I appreciate it, Mr. Redman.


       3             All right.  Page 2, item 1, 2010-326, we do


       4        have a public hearing scheduled this evening.


       5        There will be no other action on the bill.


       6             The public hearing is open.  I have no


       7        speakers' cards.


       8             Does anyone care to address the committee?


       9        If so, please come forward.


      10             (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)


      11             MR. MANN:  Mr. Chairman, I understand that


      12        you've discussed -- we've heard you discuss it


      13        before the committee, but I would like to ask


      14        you to reconsider your decision not to hear this


      15        tonight.


      16             The land use issue is really not a


      17        proponent [sic] of the -- of the bill.  It is


      18        still going to be held in another committee, and


      19        would y'all please consider reconsidering so


      20        that we could get this discharged from this


      21        committee.  It will still be held in


      22        Mr. Fussell's committee for a future hearing


      23        date and won't before the council until next


      24        week, so we've got plenty of time to meet the


      25        concerns of the sheriff and discuss those with




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        him.


       2             Thank you very much for your consideration.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Mann.


       4             Any questions for Mr. Mann?


       5             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Mann, did you give your


       7        name and address for the record?


       8             (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)


       9             MR. MANN:  I'm sorry, Mr. Councilman.


      10             It's my first time here.


      11             Charles Mann, 165 Arlington Road, Jacks- --


      12        representing the Allied Veterans.


      13             Thank you.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      15             Any questions for Mr. Mann?


      16             MR. R. BROWN:  (Indicating.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Brown.


      18             MR. R. BROWN:  Not necessarily for


      19        Mr. Mann, but just a clarification that I did


      20        not oppose having discussion tonight.  I was


      21        just informing the body of why the decision was


      22        made by Councilman Fussell, Chairman Fussell,


      23        during that committee meeting.


      24             Thank you.


      25             MR. MANN:  And, Mr. Chairman, I'll assure




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        you that if you do hear it tonight, we'll make


       2        every effort to meet with the sheriff in the


       3        upcoming week before the City Council meeting


       4        and address any, you know, views or any concerns


       5        he may have.


       6             Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Mann.


       8             Mr. Holt.


       9             MR. HOLT:  Not a question for Mr. Mann, but


      10        for anybody who was at PHS earlier.


      11             Did Mr. Fussell indicate what he planned on


      12        doing or did -- was there any discussion of the


      13        president taking it up and pulling it out of


      14        that committee?


      15             MR. R. BROWN:  No.  I'll answer that


      16        question.  In fact, it was a surprise,


      17        last-minute decision.  We were actually prepared


      18        to take it on.


      19             MR. HOLT:  I won't mind taking it on


      20        tonight, but if the president is not planning on


      21        taking it out of the committee, then there's


      22        really no point.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Holt.


      24             I guess through the Chair to Mr. Brown or


      25        Mr. Reingold, were there any people in the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        audience to address the bill that you don't see


       2        here tonight or was there anybody at the agenda


       3        meeting that had an interest in this?


       4             Mr. Brown, do you have any recollection of


       5        PHS?


       6             MR. R. BROWN:  No, the same people are


       7        here --


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       9             MR. R. BROWN:  -- other than -- the sheriff


      10        was not present.  It was by way of a phone call.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Reingold, was there


      12        anybody at the LUZ agenda meeting with regard to


      13        opposing that may have left because of the


      14        deferral?


      15             MR. REINGOLD:  Through the Chair, I don't


      16        believe so.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.


      18             Mr. Bishop.


      19             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      20             If light of the fact this is an official


      21        public hearing -- the other committees don't


      22        have official public hearings but this one does,


      23        in the abundance of caution, considering the


      24        volatile nature of this particular bill and the


      25        opinions on both sides of this issue, I would




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        just suggest that we defer it in the interest


       2        that we don't leave someone out that might come


       3        back later and say they didn't get an


       4        opportunity to speak.  That may be overly


       5        cautious, but that would just be my suggestion.


       6             Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Bishop.


       8             Anyone else?


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  We do have


      11        another speaker, Kelly Mathis.


      12             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


      14             Kelly Mathis, 1200 Riverplace Boulevard,


      15        Suite 902, representing Allied Veterans.


      16             I want to inform the members of the


      17        council, I did speak personally with the sheriff


      18        this afternoon regarding his concerns.  They


      19        relate primarily to whether he -- JSO is going


      20        to be the responsible agency for permitting or


      21        whether it should be with another City


      22        department.  They do not relate to any land use


      23        issues, any zoning issues, or things of that


      24        nature.


      25             I also traded voice mails with Mr. Kevin




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Hyde, who informed me in his last voice mail


       2        that he had no objection to it being taken up


       3        and considered by this -- this panel and this


       4        committee tonight.  We would request that you


       5        do.


       6             Whether it gets pulled from the other


       7        committee or discharged, I -- I don't know, but


       8        this would certainly give it the opportunity to


       9        do so.


      10             The issues involving other players, other


      11        participants in the industry, none of those


      12        issues have circulated or are related to the


      13        zoning issues.  They have all related to permits


      14        and fees and the amounts of the permits and


      15        fees.  I don't think that there's any -- any


      16        issues regarding any of the zoning issues, and


      17        it just may be more expedient to do those.


      18             And I'm available for questions, but we'd


      19        like it addressed.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, Mr. Mathis, we're


      21        taking up the whole bill, correct?  I mean, the


      22        whole -- the entire bill is before this


      23        committee.  It's more than just the zoning, it's


      24        the entire structure of the bill, which includes


      25        the zoning provisions, correct?




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. MATHIS:  That's correct.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Right.


       3             MR. MATHIS:  That's correct.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  And were you aware of


       5        anybody in the audience today at Public Health


       6        and Safety that had a -- that you don't see here


       7        tonight that was here to speak on this bill?


       8             MR. MATHIS:  No, sir.


       9             Mr. Sean Arnold was here at that meeting,


      10        but I addressed it with him.  He did not have


      11        any specific concerns for this committee and was


      12        not going to appear because of that.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      14             All right.  Well, I'd say let's take it up,


      15        then.


      16             Do we -- does anybody else want to address


      17        the committee in light of the fact that we'll


      18        consider the bill and not continue the public


      19        hearing?


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Nobody?


      22             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Seeing none, then the


      24        public hearing is closed and we are back in


      25        committee.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  Move the amendment.


       2             MR. R. BROWN:  Second.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion and second on the


       4        amendment.


       5             Mr. Reingold, can you discuss the


       6        amendment?  Oh, you've got to --


       7             MR. REINGOLD:  I apologize.  I'll be


       8        honest, I'm caught off guard that we're taking


       9        it up tonight.  And that doesn't stop us from


      10        doing so, I just know there's an amendment


      11        that's been floated around and being discussed.


      12             I know the Planning Department has got a


      13        report and they've got some recommended changes


      14        to the bill, so we might want to run through it


      15        as we would with any other normal bill.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  You know what?  Are you


      17        going to get Mr. Teal -- okay.  Let's -- we're


      18        going to just temporarily pass over this and


      19        we're going to come back to it when we get one


      20        of the other attorneys back, and we'll go --


      21        we'll cycle back through this when those folks


      22        get here.


      23             All right.  So let's temporarily skip over


      24        item 1.


      25             Item 2, 2010-389, that's scheduled for a




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        public hearing this evening.  The public hearing


       2        is open.  I have no speakers' cards.


       3             Anyone care to address the committee?


       4             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no one,


       6        the public hearing is continued until


       7        November 16th and there's no other action on


       8        that bill.


       9             Turning to page 3, item 3, 2010-585, is


      10        deferred.  Item 4, 2010-595, is deferred.  And


      11        item 5, 2010-596, is deferred.


      12             Turning to page 4, item 6 is scheduled for


      13        a public hearing this evening.  There will be no


      14        other action on that bill.  The public hearing


      15        is open.  I have no speakers' cards.


      16             Anyone care to address the committee on


      17        item 6?


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, the public


      20        hearing is continued until January 4th of 2011.


      21             Item 7, 2010-624.


      22             Mr. Crofts.


      23             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, it's my


      24        understanding that this legislation was referred


      25        back to the LUZ Committee by the district




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        councilman to incorporate some additional


       2        information, specifically items pertaining to a


       3        community meeting on this item that was


       4        conducted on August 31st, 2010, and it was felt


       5        to be incorporated -- or appropriate to be


       6        incorporated as part of the record and file for


       7        this particular item.


       8             More specifically, as indicated in the


       9        October 19th, 2010, meeting of this body, this


      10        legislation seeks to rezone 26.7 acres from IBP,


      11        Industrial Business Park, and Rural Residential,


      12        to PUD, for the development of activities such


      13        as a family life center, day care center, and


      14        related uses associated with the mission of the


      15        Day Spring Baptist Church, including a senior


      16        living facility for up to 80 beds or 80 dwelling


      17        units.


      18             The department has determined that this


      19        proposal is consistent with the 2030


      20        Comprehensive Plan and currently will ultimately


      21        be required to meet further requirements of the


      22        City's land development regulations, including


      23        the ten-set approval process and thereby we


      24        recommend approval with the previously-recorded


      25        six conditions.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And, for the record, in order to clarify


       2        that, I think it's appropriate, unless you stop


       3        me, to go ahead and read those conditions into


       4        the record again.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Reingold, do you have a


       6        comment?


       7             MR. REINGOLD:  John -- and I apologize, I'm


       8        getting input from a lot of different


       9        directions.


      10             Are you on 2010-624?


      11             MR. CROFTS:  Yes, sir.


      12             MR. REINGOLD:  All right.  The LUZ


      13        committee has already adopted the conditions,


      14        it's already in the bill itself.  I just wasn't


      15        sure if you were aware of that.  Essentially


      16        we're in the posture of just moving the bill as


      17        is, with the conditions --


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, this -- Mr. Reingold,


      19        this came back to the council because the


      20        district councilperson wanted something added to


      21        the record, so has that something been added to


      22        the record?


      23             MR. REINGOLD:  Yes, it has, to the Chair.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  So what do we need to


      25        do?  Just move the bill or --




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REINGOLD:  Essentially you're in the


       2        posture of just moving the bill as it's been


       3        amended.


       4             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.


       5             MR. BISHOP:  Second.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Motion by


       7        Mr. Holt, second by Mr. Bishop.


       8             Is there discussion on the bill?


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  If not, open the ballot,


      11        vote.


      12             (Committee ballot opened.)


      13             MR. CRESCIMBENI:  (Votes yea.)


      14             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      15             MR. BISHOP:  (Votes yea.)


      16             MR. D. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      17             MR. R. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      18             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      19             (Committee ballot closed.)


      20             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yea, zero nay.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've, for


      22        the second time, approved item 7, 2010-624.


      23             Bottom of page 4, item 8, 2010-670.  That


      24        bill is deferred.


      25             Turning to page 5, at the top, item 9,




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        2010-751.


       2             Mr. Kelly.


       3             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


       4             To the Chair and to the committee,


       5        ordinance 2010-751 seeks to rezone property


       6        located at 887 Franklin Street, between


       7        Jessie Street and Odessa Street.  This is within


       8        the East Jacksonville neighborhood.


       9             The current zoning is RMD-D.  The proposed


      10        zoning is Planned Unit Development to allow for


      11        the rehabilitation of an existing apartment


      12        complex that was built in 1973.  There's


      13        approximately 60 units on just over two acres,


      14        which had some issue with the underlying density


      15        permitted in the land use category; however,


      16        there's a policy in terms of defining


      17        consistency with the comprehensive plan as it


      18        relates to existing and preexisting


      19        residentially [sic] uses being restored to their


      20        historically-significant density regardless of


      21        the land use category, and that's the case in


      22        this instance.  Again, it's an existing


      23        apartment complex that's being rehabilitated.


      24             The department finds that approval of this


      25        PUD would further the goals and objectives and




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        policies of the comprehensive plan, including


       2        future land use objective 1.1, future land use


       3        element policy 1.1.10, and future land use


       4        element policy 1.1.20.


       5             We find the development and the site plan


       6        are both internally and externally compatible


       7        and are recommending approval subject to the


       8        conditions in the memorandum dated October 28th


       9        to Council President Webb and the City Council.


      10        I'll read those conditions into the record.


      11             Condition 1, "The developer shall be


      12        subject to the original legal description,


      13        August 13th 2010."


      14             Condition 2, "The development shall be


      15        subject to the original written description


      16        dated August 13th, 2010."


      17             Condition 3, "The development shall be


      18        subject to the original site plan dated


      19        August 13th, 2010."


      20             And condition 4, "The required


      21        transportation improvements shall be made in


      22        accordance with the Development Services


      23        Division memorandum dated September 22nd, 2010,


      24        or as otherwise approved by the Planning and


      25        Development Department."




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Pending those four conditions, the


       2        department supports this application.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you,


       4        Mr. Kelly.


       5             This is a quasi-judicial matter.  Does


       6        anyone have any ex-parte communication to


       7        disclose?


       8             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none, we


      10        have a public hearing scheduled this evening.


      11        The public hearing is open.  I have one


      12        speaker's card, Jenna Emmons.


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I can just be available


      14        for questions.


      15             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Emmons, if you'll state


      17        your name and address for the record.


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Jenna Emmons, 126 West


      19        Adams Street.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  And you're the owner of the


      21        property?


      22             MS. EMMONS:  I'm the agent of the owner.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  And you heard the


      24        conditions that were read into the record.


      25             Do you accept those?




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. EMMONS:  Yes.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Agree to those?


       3             MS. EMMONS:  (Nods head.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  You do?


       5             MS. EMMONS:  Uh-huh.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Reingold.


       7             MR. REINGOLD:  I just want to confirm with


       8        staff -- I'm sorry, someone had pulled me aside


       9        during the discussion -- that the fourth


      10        condition was that, "The required transportation


      11        improvements shall be made in accordance with


      12        the Development Services Division memorandum


      13        dated September 22nd, 2010, or as otherwise


      14        approved by the Planning and Development


      15        Department."


      16             MR. KELLY:  (Nods head.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Reingold --


      18             MR. REINGOLD:  Sean is telling me he -- he


      19        confirms that that's how he read it into the


      20        record.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  All four of the conditions


      22        were read pursuant to the way they appear in the


      23        October 28 memo.


      24             MR. KELLY:  No, I made a minor correction.


      25             There was an error in -- kind of verbiage,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        I guess, when -- about the "pursuant to the


       2        memorandum."  We just made it "in accordance" --


       3        because we're already saying "in accordance


       4        with," and so it's redundant to say "pursuant


       5        to" -- it was "in accordance with the


       6        memorandum," so I struck the "pursuant to"


       7        language.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Emmons, do you agree to


       9        that --


      10             MS. EMMONS:  Yes.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- condition as it was


      12        revised?


      13             MS. EMMONS:  Uh-huh.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      15             Did you want to address the committee?


      16             MS. EMMONS:  No.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Anybody have any


      18        questions for Ms. Emmons?


      19             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none,


      21        thank you, Ms. Emmons.


      22             Anyone else care to address the committee?


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no one,


      25        then, the public hearing is closed.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  We need a --


       3             MR. HOLT:  Move the amendment.


       4             MR. BISHOP:  Second.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion on the amendment by


       6        Mr. Holt, second by Mr. Bishop.


       7             Discussion on the amendment?


       8             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  If not, all those in favor


      10        say yes.


      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Yes.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Opposed say no.


      13             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      15        approved the amendment.


      16             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.


      17             MR. BISHOP:  Second.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion on the bill as


      19        amended by Mr. Holt, second by Mr. Bishop.


      20             Discussion on the bill?


      21             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  If not, open the ballot,


      23        vote.


      24             (Committee ballot opened.)


      25             MR. CRESCIMBENI:  (Votes yea.)




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. BISHOP:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. D. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. R. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       6             (Committee ballot closed.)


       7             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  By our action, you have


       9        approved item 9, 2010-751.


      10             Item 10, 2010-770.


      11             Is Mr. McEachin here?


      12             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, I've asked


      13        Ms. Cherry Shaw of the Office of General Counsel


      14        to give a brief report on this in lieu of


      15        Mr. McEachin's absence.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Crofts.


      17             MS. SHAW:  Thank you.


      18             Cherry Shaw, Office of General Counsel.


      19             Through the Chair, what you have before you


      20        is a bill which seeks the committee's approval


      21        to designate this particular property as a


      22        landmark designation.  And under Section


      23        307.104, there are specifically seven criteria


      24        that must be met.  However, if the property


      25        owner does not object to the designation, then




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        only two of the criteria should be met in order


       2        for the property to be designated as a landmark


       3        designation.


       4             In this instance, we have four of the


       5        criteria that have been met for designation, and


       6        specifically the property is the Old City


       7        Cemetery.  It is located northeast of downtown


       8        and -- 1852 -- starting in year 1852 to 1881, it


       9        served as the burial grounds for prominent


      10        members of the Jacksonville community,


      11        specifically in the 19th -- in the early


      12        20th century.


      13             I cannot comment on exactly who is actually


      14        buried there.  Mr. McEachin from the Planning


      15        Department has more specific information, but I


      16        know that there is separate divisions of the


      17        cemetery.  There's a Hebrew section for a Jewish


      18        community.  Historically -- African-American


      19        community, Confederate veterans community, all


      20        of those sections were divided for burial sites


      21        for prominent members, and we would just ask the


      22        committee to move the approval so that the


      23        cemetery may be designated as a landmark.


      24             And what the landmark will do is that, in


      25        the future, if there are any future burials or




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        any type of alterations to this particular


       2        cemetery, it would require an application for a


       3        Certificate of Appropriateness before the


       4        Historic Preservation Commission.


       5             Thank you.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       7             And your name was Shaw, Ms. Shaw?


       8             MS. SHAW:  Cherry Shaw.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, Ms. Shaw.


      10             And how did the property owner convey the


      11        fact that they didn't have an objection?


      12             MS. SHAW:  Actually, the property owner had


      13        submitted the application to the staff and the


      14        Planning Department, and that should be attached


      15        to the -- in your book as exhibit -- it's a part


      16        of the exhibit.  The application is exhibit --


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Actually, I don't have


      18        anything in my book on that item.


      19             MS. SHAW:  Bear with me a moment here while


      20        I search for that application.


      21             I don't have it either, but it is my


      22        understanding that the applicant -- or the


      23        property owner does not object to the


      24        designation of this property, the cemetery as a


      25        landmark designation.  I can get that




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        application for you.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is there any time


       3        sensitivity on this?  Because apparently


       4        Legislative Services says that no paperwork came


       5        over for anybody's book with regard to this


       6        item, and I'm kind of surprised that you don't


       7        have it with you as the representative of the


       8        department.


       9             Any time sensitivity?  Can we take it up in


      10        two weeks?


      11             MS. SHAW:  Sure.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.


      13             MS. SHAW:  Absolutely.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Shaw.


      15             We have a public hearing scheduled on this


      16        item this evening.  We're going to open the


      17        public hearing.  I have no speakers' cards.


      18             Does anyone care to address the committee?


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none,


      21        then, the public hearing will be continued


      22        until -- what is that -- the 16th of November


      23        and the bill is -- there's no further action on


      24        the bill.


      25             Item 11, 2010-781.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Ms. Parola.


       2             MS. PAROLA:  Yes.  Thank you.


       3             Through the Chair, text amendment 2010-781


       4        includes the annual service level update of the


       5        Capital Improvements Element schedule of capital


       6        projects.  The projects are all


       7        financially-feasible capital projects that are


       8        directly level of service related.  They affect


       9        capacity under the level of service standards.


      10             Within the schedule you'll see projects for


      11        roads, for mass transit, projects from the


      12        Jacksonville Port Authority, schools, potable


      13        water, and sanitary sewer.  All of these


      14        projects were previously approved as part of


      15        either the fiscal year 2011 through 2015 Capital


      16        Improvement Program, which was adopted under


      17        ordinance 2010-558, or they're a part of the


      18        transportation improvement program from the TPO,


      19        or they're a part of the most recent FDOT work


      20        program schedule.  That's all the road projects


      21        that you find in the document.


      22             The Planning and Development Department


      23        recommends approval of the CIE, the fiscal year


      24        2011 through 2015 CIE schedule of projects, as


      25        presented.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             If you have any questions, I'm available.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       3             Any questions from the committee?


       4             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none, we


       6        have a public hearing scheduled on this bill


       7        tonight.  The public hearing is open.  I have no


       8        speakers' cards.


       9             Anyone care to address the committee?


      10             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no one,


      12        the public hearing is closed and we are in


      13        committee.


      14             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion on the bill by


      16        Mr. Holt --


      17             MR. REDMAN:  Second.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- second by Mr. Redman.


      19             Any discussion?


      20             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  If not, open the ballot,


      22        vote.


      23             (Committee ballot opened.)


      24             MR. CRESCIMBENI:  (Votes yea.)


      25             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. BISHOP:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. D. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. R. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       5             (Committee ballot closed.)


       6             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  By our action, you have


       8        approved item 11, 2010-781.


       9             Item 12, 2010-782, is deferred.


      10             Turning to page 6, at the top, item 13,


      11        2010-783, is deferred.


      12             Item 14, 2010-784, we'll take no action,


      13        but we do have a public hearing scheduled this


      14        evening.  The public hearing is open.  I have no


      15        speaker cards.


      16             Anyone care to address the committee?


      17             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no one, the public


      19        hearing is continued until November 16th, no


      20        further action on that bill.


      21             Last item on page 6, item 15, 2010-817, is


      22        read and rerefer -- second rerefer.


      23             So that takes us back to page 1.


      24             And, Mr. Reingold, are all your


      25        counterparts present?




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REINGOLD:  Yes, sir.


       2             Mr. Gabriel is here to discuss both the


       3        bill and the amendment.  Also, as what is


       4        traditionally done with these types of bills,


       5        first, if would you like, the Planning


       6        Department will give their staff analysis and


       7        then Mr. Gabriel can --


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.  We're going to start


       9        from the top and take this like we normally


      10        would, so who's doing the staff analysis?


      11             Mr. Kelly.


      12             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      13             To the Chair and to committee members,


      14        ordinance 2010-326, as you know, this


      15        legislation proposes to allow for two new


      16        sections of the Municipal Code, Chapter 155 and


      17        156, as it relates to adult arcade/amusement


      18        centers that are operated by a licensed


      19        pari-mutuel permit holder and also the adult


      20        arcade/amusement centers' game promotions and


      21        sweepstakes businesses.


      22             The department has reviewed this in the


      23        context, more or less, as it relates to


      24        Chapter 656.  What's proposed -- these uses


      25        would be permitted by right -- as a matter of




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        right within the CCG-1 and the CCG-2 zoning


       2        districts.  We basically equate the uses as


       3        being consistent with what is traditionally


       4        indoor entertainment, which would be permissible


       5        in CCG-2.


       6             The department does have concerns, however,


       7        in our review of this application -- or this


       8        change to the code and the implications on


       9        compatibility as it relates to the CCG-1 zoning


      10        district.


      11             There is a distance limitation proposed for


      12        basically both CCG-1 and CCG-2 that prohibits


      13        the facilities within 750 feet from a church, a


      14        school, or a military installation.


      15             The department has similar concerns as it


      16        relates to residential uses and the fact that


      17        there's a lack of any kind of distance


      18        limitation proposed at this time.


      19             The department, again, finds that there's,


      20        you know, well-documented secondary effects of


      21        these uses as it relates to an increase in


      22        nuisance-related crime and activity and


      23        increased loitering, littering, those sorts of


      24        things, and we want to ensure that these uses


      25        are located in an area that's appropriate for




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        it.


       2             There are some very strict licensing


       3        standards, we understand, but they don't address


       4        the locational aspects.  And the department, I


       5        guess, does have some concerns with, I guess --


       6        that was -- issues that were brought to light


       7        through the sheriff as it relates to the


       8        permitting aspects which may substantially alter


       9        the bill if it's basically given to another


      10        department to do the permitting for these -- the


      11        survey requirements for a 750 foot survey and


      12        the enforcement of that as it relates to these


      13        proposed uses.  The department would like to


      14        have some input as to how that gets


      15        accomplished.


      16             However, again, the big issue for us as it


      17        relates to allowing this use in CCG-1 is the


      18        impact that it potentially has on immediate


      19        neighborhood residential areas that potentially


      20        could be adversely impacted.  These are 24-hour


      21        facilities that are run.  They are heavily


      22        security oriented.  They have a security guard


      23        manned there at all times and heavily regulated


      24        both under 155 and 156.  So as an adult-oriented


      25        use, we find that it would be appropriate to




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        have a distance limitation or at least an


       2        opportunity to evaluate individual instances


       3        through the zoning exception process where it


       4        may be appropriate within the CCG-1 category.


       5             There are numerous older neighborhoods and


       6        neighborhood action plans and corridor studies


       7        that we have done throughout the city and the


       8        vision plans, and we look to implement those


       9        plans and find appropriate places for the uses,


      10        and I think just blanket allowing it in CCG-1


      11        would be a mistake, and I think the bill is


      12        lacking -- or the department feels that the bill


      13        is lacking in that respect.


      14             Other than that, the department is


      15        supporting an amendment that would basically


      16        propose a 500-foot distance limitation from


      17        residential zoning districts within the CCG-1


      18        category and, additionally, would contemplate


      19        allowing it either through a zoning exception in


      20        lieu of that distance requirement in CCG-1 where


      21        we can review it on a case-by-case basis and


      22        site specific in relation to the neighborhood.


      23        We think that's the more appropriate way to go.


      24             With that amendment, the department is


      25        supportive of this bill and finds




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that it would be consistent with future land use


       2        element goal 1, as well as future land use


       3        element policy 3.2.3 and 1.1.7.  Pending that,


       4        support of the amendment.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Kelly.


       6             Mr. Kelly, the distance limitation in CCG-1


       7        to a church, school, or -- what did you say the


       8        other thing was, a military --


       9             MR. KELLY:  The distance limitations right


      10        now, regardless of zoning --


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Can you just run through


      12        that one more time, please?


      13             MR. KELLY:  Certainly.


      14             The distance limitations as proposed are


      15        750 feet, and this would be an amendment to the


      16        zoning code under Part 4, creating a new


      17        criteria which would require 750 feet from a


      18        church, a school, or a military installation.


      19        That's as it is proposed right now, whether it


      20        be in CCG-1 or CCG-2.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's in the bill?


      22             MR. KELLY:  Correct, the uses by right.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  And that distance from a


      24        church, school, or military installation, is


      25        that from the property that contains the arcade




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to, what, the property boundary of the church,


       2        school, or military installation?


       3             MR. KELLY:  I can read the language.


       4             It's in the -- towards the back of the bill


       5        as it relates to Part 4.  It's KK; I'll find the


       6        page number briefly.  It's page 38 of the bill.


       7        It describes the measurement.  They're basically


       8        measured from following a straight line from the


       9        nearest point of the building or portion of the


      10        building used as part of the proposed location


      11        to the nearest point of the grounds used as part


      12        of the church, school, or military installation.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.


      14             Mr. Holt, did you have a question?


      15             MR. HOLT:  (Inaudible.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  They answered it.


      17             Okay.  Mr. Bishop, question for Mr. Kelly?


      18             MR. BISHOP:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      19             Regarding the CCG-1/CCG-2 issue, am I


      20        correct in understanding, the bill, in it's


      21        current form, allows these in CCG-1 by right


      22        provided they meet the distance requirement and


      23        that the Planning Department would support an


      24        amendment that would require them to be done by


      25        exception in CCG-1 while still meeting the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        distance requirements?


       2             MR. KELLY:  That is -- that's correct.


       3             In fact, we would even potentially waive


       4        the distance in CCG-1 in -- if there's an


       5        exception process, a way to look at these


       6        individually, but, I mean, that was kind of


       7        discussed -- originally, we drafted the report


       8        based on the distance limitation itself.  I'll


       9        defer -- I think Bill is here, but there was


      10        some discussion after we had issued the report


      11        about having an alternative as opposed to just a


      12        strict 500-foot rule.


      13             I'm sorry, the 750 foot, yes.  I'm thinking


      14        500 feet.  Excuse me.  The 750 feet applies no


      15        matter what, but the 500 foot from a residential


      16        or an exception was kind of the way we were


      17        looking at it.


      18             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  Thank you.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Bishop, does that answer


      20        your question?


      21             MR. BISHOP:  More or less.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  It does?  Good.  Good for


      23        you because I didn't get that.


      24             MR. BISHOP:  (Inaudible.)


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  So, Mr. Kelly,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        are you saying that you're supportive of the


       2        bill's language, which allows the arcades by


       3        right in CCG-2, with the distance limitation?


       4             MR. KELLY:  Correct.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  But you would prefer to have


       6        some sort of residential component?


       7             MR. KELLY:  We support it in CCG-2 with the


       8        distance limitation of 750 feet from a church,


       9        school, or military installation.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is that in the bill now, the


      11        750 feet?


      12             MR. KELLY:  Correct.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Right.  Okay.


      14             But what about from residential, do you


      15        have a problem with that not being in there for


      16        CCG-2?


      17             MR. KELLY:  Well, the distance limitation


      18        from a church, school, or military facility


      19        would still be 750 feet in CCG-1; however, we


      20        would like an additional limitation placed on


      21        the CCG-1; that is, either a 500-foot limitation


      22        from residential zoning or to allow the use


      23        through -- only through a zoning exception,


      24        which would provide some input to the


      25        surrounding community, to have a public hearing




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to see if it's an appropriate use at that


       2        location.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  So what about a residential


       4        property that was within 750 feet of the arcade


       5        in CCG-2, you're okay with that?


       6             MR. KELLY:  Residential within 750 feet


       7        would qualify.  It's only a church, school, or


       8        military installation.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  But residential


      10        within 500 feet in CCG-1 you have a problem


      11        with?


      12             MR. KELLY:  That's correct.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm not sure I follow that


      14        logic.  What's the difference?


      15             MR. KELLY:  Well, the residential uses --


      16        CCG-1, again, from a zoning perspective, is not


      17        the same level intensity as CCG-2.  So to equate


      18        and have the same exact requirements for both


      19        uses in each category, we find that it's -- it's


      20        just inconsistent with, you know, normal


      21        progression or intensification of uses.


      22             You have a lot more instances where you


      23        have residential zoning immediately adjacent to


      24        CCG-1 zoning, whereas it's less the case where


      25        there's residential immediately to CCG-2.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        There's more of a transition and a buffer, so


       2        the -- the distance limitation of 500 feet, I


       3        mean, we would apply --


       4             I understand your meaning now.  CCG-1, I


       5        mean, if that's the case --


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  So the residential property


       7        owner, if they have the bad luck of living next


       8        door to CCG-2, they don't have a voice.  But if


       9        they're in CCG-1, they get a voice, according to


      10        the desires of the department.


      11             MR. KELLY:  Again, my understanding of the


      12        bill from the get-go was to restrict the


      13        proliferation of the number of facilities that


      14        could operate.  And, in our view, you're going


      15        to have more instances -- it does make perfect,


      16        rational sense, and we would support that


      17        amendment as well, to have a 500-foot buffer


      18        from these uses from residential in both CCG-1


      19        and CCG-2.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right, sir.  Thank you.


      21             Mr. Brown.  Dick brown.


      22             MR. D. BROWN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      23             I was just -- feel the need to try to catch


      24        up a little bit.  I haven't been on any of these


      25        committees until we saw this, but most of these




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        will be located in a shopping center, won't


       2        they?  I mean, one of the units -- or is that


       3        the way they are now or -- people aren't


       4        building freestanding buildings for -- for these


       5        arcades, are they?


       6             MR. KELLY:  There's no requirement to


       7        locate in a shopping center.  The facility that


       8        I visited was down on University Boulevard in an


       9        old restaurant that had been converted,


      10        Barnhill's buffet restaurant, which is the


      11        Allied Veterans' facility.


      12             MR. D. BROWN:  The distance issues, are


      13        they known to be noisy or -- what are we dealing


      14        with there?


      15             MR. KELLY:  Well, I've -- in the research


      16        that I've done, you know, while most communities


      17        at this point are actually making the facilities


      18        and the Internet sweepstakes illegal in their


      19        community, we're -- I mean, we're looking at it,


      20        but -- they find -- I mean, there's a lot of


      21        secondary effects that they find that are


      22        nuisance related.


      23             Again, these are operated 24 hours, the


      24        potential for increased crime and domestic


      25        disturbances, your spouse or whatever is out at




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the -- you know, the sweepstakes entry promotion


       2        hall till 2 or 3 a.m., so -- I mean, they


       3        have -- the number of calls and the studies and


       4        the things that have occurred have demonstrated


       5        that there's an increase as it relates to that.


       6             MR. D. BROWN:  I think we -- there's so


       7        many details being dealt with this, but the


       8        morality part of it is -- I thought it had


       9        already been decided we're going to permit them


      10        or -- you know, to now try to tidy them up that


      11        way seems a little awkward, but -- but I'll


      12        listen to the rest of the debate.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown.


      14             Folks, we're going to have another public


      15        hearing, so sit tight.  I'm going to call y'all


      16        back up.  We're still in the prepublic hearing


      17        portion of the debate.


      18             Mr. Bishop.


      19             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      20             Mr. Kelly, I guess this is a little more


      21        complicated than I thought on the distance


      22        issues.


      23             I want to summarize and tell me if I've got


      24        this right.  The bill as it's currently written


      25        has a 750-foot distance restriction between




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        churches, schools, and military facilities in


       2        both CCG-1 and CCG-2; is that correct?


       3             MR. KELLY:  Yes, that's correct.


       4             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  And the department is


       5        advocating for either a 500-foot separation


       6        between the use and residential or by exception


       7        within -- prefer to have it by exception in


       8        CCG-1 or a 500-foot distance requirement if it's


       9        done by right; is that correct?


      10             MR. KELLY:  Yes, that's correct.


      11             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  I'm going to go back


      12        to, I think, what Mr. Crescimbeni was talking


      13        about.  What about areas where you have CCG-2


      14        adjacent to residential districts, which we have


      15        in many places, why would it not be appropriate,


      16        the distance separation, in those areas?


      17             MR. KELLY:  Well, I would probably defer to


      18        legal in the same respects whereas -- you know,


      19        we're typically required to have a use that is a


      20        permissible use by right -- I mean, similar to


      21        the way the adult entertainment is by right in


      22        CCG-2, just allowing a use only through a zoning


      23        exception.  I don't know if that presents a


      24        legal issue, but our recommendation, again --


      25        because of the intensification and the uses that




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        could normally go in CCG-2 by right, which are


       2        outdoor uses and such and more intense uses, it


       3        seemed more poignant, I guess, to have it in


       4        CCG-1, to have that concern.  CCG-2 is


       5        understood to be a much more intense zoning.


       6             MR. BISHOP:  Other provisions in the zoning


       7        code which regulate distance, such as


       8        establishments that serve alcohol, there are


       9        distance requirements between schools and


      10        churches, whether it's CCG-1 or CCG-2.


      11             Now, I don't know whether they apply to


      12        residential or not, but considering that we have


      13        distance requirements for other things, why


      14        would this not be -- why would this not be the


      15        same?


      16             Maybe, Mr. Reingold, you could answer that


      17        question.


      18             I mean, what's the difference between a


      19        residential neighborhood next to CCG-1 as


      20        opposed to CCG-2?  What we're saying by that, by


      21        default, is that a residential neighborhood


      22        adjacent to CCG-2 is not as high quality as one


      23        that's adjacent to CCG-1 and, therefore, we're


      24        allowing more intrusive uses in a closer


      25        environment.  I mean, is that, in a sense, what




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        we're saying?


       2             Because if these were uses that we would


       3        universally adopt, why would we have distance


       4        requirements at all?  And so -- we do because of


       5        incompatibility.  And so my question is, why is


       6        CCG-2 -- why isn't a residential neighborhood


       7        adjacent to CCG-2 -- should it be afforded any


       8        less protection than one adjacent to a CCG-1?


       9             That's, I guess, the question for whoever


      10        wants to take it.


      11             MR. KELLY:  I mean, obviously -- I mean,


      12        goal 1 of the comp plan and the comp plan itself


      13        is protection of residential neighborhoods and


      14        character, so -- I mean, we don't disagree on


      15        that point.  I just wanted to point out -- and


      16        Dylan brought to my attention the difference.


      17        Even with the alcohol, we do allow alcohol in


      18        conjunction with a restaurant in CCG-1 by


      19        exception.  In CCG-2, it's by right.  So I just


      20        wanted to point that out.


      21             But there is a gradation or intensification


      22        between the two districts and the discrepancy --


      23        and typically when you're CCG-2, you would have


      24        more of a -- there are instances, obviously,


      25        where single-family immediately butts up to it,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        but in most cases where there's CCG-2 there's a


       2        transitional zoning district or land use that


       3        buffers that CCG-2 from the residential.


       4             MR. BISHOP:  Would you agree that while it


       5        is most, it is not all?


       6             MR. KELLY:  It certainly isn't all.


       7             MR. BISHOP:  And that some of those


       8        conditions where it happens would -- are


       9        conditions that have happened due to past


      10        decisions and not those that would be allowed


      11        today, usually?


      12             MR. KELLY:  Correct.


      13             The department does not support,


      14        historically, going to CCG-2 immediately


      15        adjacent to residential.  That would not be


      16        something the department would look to


      17        encourage.


      18             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  Thank you very much.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Bishop.


      20             Mr. Holt.


      21             MR. HOLT:  (Inaudible.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      23             All right.  Any other questions for


      24        Mr. Kelly?


      25             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Then we are


       2        going to -- is this quasi-judicial,


       3        Mr. Reingold?


       4             MR. REINGOLD:  (Shakes head.)


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  No.  Okay.


       6             All right.  So we're going to go to the


       7        public hearing.  We'll start the public hearing


       8        process over again.


       9             We have a public hearing scheduled this


      10        evening.  The public hearing is open.  I have


      11        two speakers' cards.  Again, Mr. Mann, followed


      12        by Mr. Mathis.


      13             (Mr. Mann approaches the podium.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Mann, are you lobbying


      15        council members on this issue?


      16             MR. MANN:  I think I've talked to everybody


      17        up here at least once, probably five times.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Are you being compensated


      19        for that?


      20             MR. MANN:  I'm sorry, sir?


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Are you being compensated


      22        for that?


      23             MR. MANN:  Yes, sir, I am.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm going to give this card


      25        back to you and you can -- I assume you're




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        registered on that?


       2             MR. MANN:  Yes, sir, I am.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  You need to mark that card


       4        accordingly, that you're a registered lobbyist,


       5        so --


       6             All right.  Go ahead.  If you'll begin with


       7        your name and address again, please, and then


       8        you can --


       9             MR. MANN:  Mr. Chairman, members of the


      10        commission [sic], Charles Mann, 165 Arlington


      11        Road, representing the Allied Veterans.


      12             I appreciate your indulgence in this


      13        tonight.  As you may know, this was before


      14        Planning Commission last Thursday.


      15             At that time, the planning staff read a


      16        report.  And in no time in my recollection of


      17        it -- and maybe I missed something -- there was


      18        any mention of an exception in CCG-1 for this


      19        use.


      20             It was pointed out that this is probably


      21        one of the most highly regulated bills that's


      22        been before this council in some time.  We deal


      23        with background checks, we deal with location


      24        criteria, we deal with who can work in these


      25        places, we deal in restrictions of the sale of




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        alcohol in these locations, we deal with the age


       2        of people who can come and go from these, and a


       3        sundry of other things.


       4             The Planning Department came out with a


       5        recommendation of 500 feet from residential


       6        properties.  The only other activity that falls


       7        under adult entertainment that has a distance


       8        limitation from residential properties is an


       9        establishment that offers complete nudity.  You


      10        can have a bikini club serve alcohol and there's


      11        not a restriction against residential.  You can


      12        have a bar, it has no restriction against


      13        residential.  You can have a dog track, it has


      14        no restriction against residential.  You can


      15        have an all-night restaurant, it has no


      16        restriction against residential.


      17             This is a very highly regulated industry.


      18        Our facilities do not serve alcohol.  We cater


      19        basically to an elder clientele.  These are more


      20        social centers, like a Lions Club would be,


      21        without alcohol, or an Elks club without alcohol


      22        or a Woman's Club without alcohol.  To put this


      23        distance limitation on it is unreasonable,


      24        unfair.


      25             We have -- we're willing to live with the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        distance limitation of 700 feet from churches,


       2        from schools, from military facilities, and we'd


       3        respect that you would respect the wishes of


       4        the -- or the view of the Planning Commission in


       5        that they took out the requirement for the


       6        500 feet from residential properties.


       7             With that being said, I will stand by for


       8        any questions that you may have.


       9             Thank you.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Mann.


      11             Mr. Mann, I have a question for you.  Are


      12        the -- do the distance limitations apply to five


      13        or less?


      14             MR. MANN:  I need to refer to legal counsel


      15        on that.  I would say yes.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Anybody on our staff care to


      17        answer that question?  Five or less, do they --


      18             MR. MANN:  Mr. Crescimbeni, I'm getting a


      19        heads up.  Yes, it does.


      20             MR. KELLY:  Just to clarify, those are


      21        termed the "de minimis" facilities.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you concur that


      23        there's -- the distance limitation applies to


      24        the de minimis facilities?


      25             MR. GABRIEL:  Through the --




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Gabriel.


       2             MR. GABRIEL:  To the Chair, the answer is


       3        yes, although it's related to a revision we're


       4        going to be proposing, I believe, in a moment,


       5        which I've distributed to the committee here.


       6        It's labeled the "PHS Amendment."


       7             Of course, earlier at PHS this was


       8        deferred, so they're essentially -- and we can


       9        get into it now or later, if you would like,


      10        but --


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  I just want an answer to the


      12        question, if I could.


      13             So the answer is yes, they are subject to


      14        the distance limitation?


      15             MR. GABRIEL:  The answer is yes, that is


      16        the intent, and with a clarification in this


      17        proposed amendment.


      18             The solid answer is yes.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do the de minimis locations,


      20        are they operating -- or could they operate


      21        24 hours and/or serve alcohol and are they


      22        subject to background checks?


      23             MR. GABRIEL:  On page 30 in


      24        Section 156.109(a), it deals with alcoholic


      25        beverages, and what it states is that




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        establishments with ten or more pieces shall not


       2        sell or permit.  So the answer to your question


       3        is establishments that have, I guess, nine or


       4        less could sell alcohol.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  And could they be


       6        open for 24 hours?


       7             MR. GABRIEL:  Yes.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  And are they being subjected


       9        to the background checks?


      10             MR. GABRIEL:  The background checks --


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Mann mentioned


      12        backgrounds checks.


      13             MR. GABRIEL:  If you give me one moment


      14        here, I can get the answer to that question.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  We'll move on to


      16        Councilman Dick Brown.


      17             Question for Mr. Mann?


      18             MR. D. BROWN:  No.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm sorry, Reggie Brown.


      20             My cursor key was over the "R."  I thought


      21        it was a "D."


      22             MR. R. BROWN:  Yes.  Through the Chair, and


      23        I'm hoping Mr. Mann can answer this question or


      24        someone.


      25             How many sites currently will be impacted




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        if this recommendation of 500 feet is enforced?


       2             MR. MANN:  Mr. Brown, I'd have to say none


       3        because they're all going to be grandfathered


       4        in.


       5             MR. R. BROWN:  Okay.  So no one; is that


       6        the answer?


       7             MR. MANN:  That's -- I'll stand to be


       8        corrected, but that's my opinion as I understand


       9        the bill before you.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Reingold, would you


      11        concur with that?  That was one of the questions


      12        on my list.


      13             MR. REINGOLD:  Yeah, and I will certainly


      14        defer to Jason Gabriel on this issue, but it's


      15        my understanding that under the bill you've got,


      16        the establishments that are operating now, if


      17        they are lawfully existing, then they are


      18        grandfathered in, whether they meet the distance


      19        requirements or not.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Gabriel.


      21             MR. GABRIEL:  To answer your question, yes,


      22        they would be grandfathered in for purposes of


      23        zoning, including other zoning districts, and


      24        for purposes of distance, yes.


      25             And I do have an answer to your question




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        regarding the background checks.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Go ahead.


       3             MR. GABRIEL:  For the de minimis activity


       4        facilities, the answer is no, they would not.


       5        They would be exempt from this regulatory


       6        framework.  But just to remind the committee


       7        what a de minimis activity facility is, it's a


       8        501(c)(3) -- you know, exempt from federal


       9        taxation -- establishment which has ten or fewer


      10        of these machines which were in operation before


      11        January 1st, 2010.


      12             I know it's a little convoluted, but those


      13        particular sorts of establishments would be


      14        exempt from the background check.  Anything


      15        other than that --


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Maybe, then, we're --


      17        I'm not asking about the de minimis.  I was


      18        asking about the five or less, the series of


      19        folks that we heard from at -- the past couple


      20        of meetings that were concerned about these


      21        things being in truck stops, bars, et cetera.


      22             Are they -- obviously, you know, a bar --


      23        if it's in a bar, five or less, they're going to


      24        be serving alcohol, I would hope, are they


      25        subject to the background checks and can't they




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        stay open for 24 hours?


       2             MR. GABRIEL:  Right now they are, but


       3        the -- one of the proposed amendments would


       4        carve them out of -- not the background checks


       5        but a couple of other items, including a drop


       6        safe and an armed security guard during


       7        nighttime hours, but -- but the answer is yes.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.


       9             And, Mr. Mann, inasmuch as everyone is


      10        going to be grandfathered in, please explain


      11        your objection -- the foundation for your


      12        objection on the distance limitation to


      13        residential since it won't apply until the


      14        number drops down below -- what is it, 20?


      15             MR. MANN:  Mr. Chairman, our objection


      16        comes in the event that we're forced to move,


      17        one location to another.


      18             If a landlord feels like we're


      19        grandfathered -- you know, that this is the only


      20        location that we can be in, they have the


      21        ability to hold us hostage as far as rents,


      22        services, et cetera, et cetera, and we're trying


      23        to deal in a fair enterprise system where we've


      24        got the ability to move the location if we're


      25        not happy, if it's not successful, or the rents




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        get to high to make it unprofitable.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  When you say move the


       3        location, are you talking about maybe, like,


       4        moving from --


       5             MR. MANN:  One side of the street to the


       6        other or --


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  What about one side of town


       8        to the other?


       9             MR. MANN:  Conceivably you could move from


      10        one side of town to the other, but basically,


      11        you know, you want to stay in a neighborhood.


      12        These are somewhat neighborhood oriented.  You


      13        have -- you really don't have people driving


      14        across town to come to them.  They're more of a


      15        neighborhood orientation, like -- almost like a


      16        Lions Club or a Woman's Club or something of


      17        that nature.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you think the average


      19        citizen that lives in Mandarin is going to


      20        comprehend the fact that there's a cap on these


      21        and -- one moves one day from the Westside over


      22        to Mandarin or vice versa, do you think that's


      23        going to --


      24             MR. MANN:  I don't think that's going to


      25        have --




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- resonate --


       2             MR. MANN:  -- any effect.  I think it's


       3        going to be more like a social club where they


       4        reach a comfort level of where they're going.


       5        They have their friends that they're going to


       6        see on a regular basis and they're going to be


       7        more at home in a place that they're comfortable


       8        in, and that's the one they're going to go back


       9        to, not to say a new one might not catch on


      10        because they have better hors d'oeuvres or


      11        something like that, but --


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Mann.


      13             Mr. Holt has a question.


      14             MR. HOLT:  Thank you.


      15             Through the chair to, I guess, Mr. Reingold


      16        or Mr. Gabriel.  I'm sorry, but I was not aware


      17        of these changes having to do with the smaller


      18        providers of five or fewer.  Is this something


      19        that just happened in the last week, that this


      20        was added?


      21             MR. REINGOLD:  (Nods head.)


      22             MR. GABRIEL:  Through the Chair to --


      23             MR. HOLT:  What's the purpose in allowing


      24        alcohol with the gaming in the -- five or


      25        fewer?




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. GABRIEL:  Actually, the way that the


       2        ordinance has been subbed and rereferred a few


       3        weeks ago has always contained this provision


       4        that alcoholic beverages may not be sold in


       5        premises with ten -- on any premises with ten or


       6        more pieces, I'm sorry.  So premises that have


       7        nine or less may be able to sell it.  Those have


       8        been -- that provision has been in the ordinance


       9        all along.


      10             This provision regarding the five or less


      11        operators, those -- there are specific


      12        provisions that those sorts of establishments


      13        would be exempt from, and I can go through those


      14        if you'd like, but -- but the provision for


      15        alcoholic beverages has been there all along.


      16             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  The change with the five


      17        or fewer is -- just exempt them from some of the


      18        requirements?


      19             MR. GABRIEL:  Yes.


      20             MR. HOLT:  Okay.


      21             All right.  Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Councilman Reggie Brown.


      23             MR. R. BROWN:  Yes.  Through the Chair, and


      24        this question is probably more directed to


      25        Planning.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Understanding that this 500 feet, everyone


       2        is basically going to be grandfathered in, does


       3        Planning still have the position of implementing


       4        the 500 feet for future usage?


       5             MR. KELLY:  Well, as it -- I guess as it


       6        relates to the grandfathering -- I'm sorry,


       7        could you repeat --


       8             MR. R. BROWN:  Basically, in short is that


       9        we're going to grandfather everyone in.  And I


      10        know that your position -- and we try to support


      11        the Planning Department because you guys,


      12        basically you're the eyes of the city to make


      13        sure that we maintain a beautiful city and


      14        everybody is on the same level, so basically --


      15             My question is, you know, since everyone is


      16        going to be grandfathered in as it stands right


      17        now, Planning position, is it still the same, to


      18        pursue a recommendation of 500 feet, limitation


      19        for residents?


      20             MR. KELLY:  Given that, I mean, the


      21        facilities are there and existing -- I did have


      22        a question for Dylan as it relates to the


      23        facilities to determine -- is the City's view of


      24        the grandfathered facilities, are those --


      25        obviously, it said those that were operating as




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of April, I believe, when the bill -- prior to


       2        the bill being introduced.  Were those


       3        facilities issued certificates of use?  Is that


       4        a binding component as -- in terms of going back


       5        to a date specific as when they commenced the


       6        use or is it -- do we take it on their word that


       7        they existed prior to that or how would we


       8        demonstrate the actual grandfather?  I just have


       9        a question about that.


      10             But to get more specific to your point, the


      11        department, given the existing facility's


      12        location, the 500 foot rule and grandfathering,


      13        that provision, obviously we can't come back and


      14        make them apply for something that they're


      15        already grandfathered and vested for.


      16             The issue, you know, primarily deals with


      17        the ability to transfer at some point in the


      18        future, but the department, you know, we would


      19        be okay if that 750 foot rule applied basically


      20        to both types of facilities, the de minimis


      21        activity facilities, to keep that 750 feet from


      22        churches and schools and military installations,


      23        and that would -- that would -- we've done some


      24        minimal type of analysis, and that would -- that


      25        would solve a lot of our issues as well.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. R. BROWN:  Okay.  My second question --


       2        I did hear about costs and one of the reasons to


       3        not implement the 500 foot rule is that it will


       4        basically handcuff, Mr. Chairman, folk from


       5        renting or leasing.  And I guess I have a


       6        concern about that because we all know that in


       7        some areas the cost of real estate is a little


       8        higher than others, and I'm wondering now


       9        whether or not we're going to limit the number


      10        of sites to an area of town, you know, because


      11        if the real estate becomes so enormous on the


      12        Northside that folk just can't afford to have a


      13        site there, although they have a license, so do


      14        everybody now run to the Riverside area because


      15        it's more cost effective?  Have we considered --


      16        when we start talking about transferring?


      17        Because we hate to saturate just one area of


      18        town with those machines.


      19             Go ahead.


      20             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      21             Through the Chair, we have CCG-1 and -2 all


      22        over town.  We did some preliminary analyses and


      23        views of this in terms of number of parcels and


      24        availability.


      25             Given the limitation of 20, I believe when




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the initial analysis came out, it was over 1,800


       2        parcels in the city that qualified and met those


       3        requirements.  So we think, you know, there's a


       4        fair number of available parcels for them to go


       5        to within, you know, all of the city, and


       6        they're not specifically located in any one


       7        area.  You do have your major corridors,


       8        obviously, within the older, urbanized area.  As


       9        you get out a little further, you know, you have


      10        the ring of PUDs around the city and -- but


      11        within primarily your older urbanized area --


      12        Southside, Regency, Atlantic Boulevard, Beach


      13        Boulevard, Southside Boulevard, Edgewood


      14        Boulevard, Kings Road -- so you have the major


      15        corridors where, you know -- but it's


      16        distributed evenly throughout the city.


      17             MR. R. BROWN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown.


      19             Mr. Gabriel, did you have a comment to --


      20        or did you want to respond to the question that


      21        was asked by Mr. Kelly earlier?


      22             MR. GABRIEL:  Sure.


      23             I think there was a question regarding the


      24        grandfathering date.  And, again, this is


      25        another item I guess when we get to this point




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to clean up throughout the ordinance through --


       2        hopefully, through an amendment.


       3             The way that the ordinance reads now


       4        regarding the grandfathering of these permits is


       5        that within 60 days of enactment of this


       6        ordinance all operators operating and who have


       7        been operating for the previous 90 days prior to


       8        enactment of this ordinance, which would be


       9        sometime -- beginning of August, will have the


      10        right to obtain a valid permit pursuant to this,


      11        so essentially they'd be grandfathered in.


      12             One of the things that the proposed


      13        amendment will do is make consistent that


      14        grandfathering date throughout the ordinance


      15        because we also have a date for when you're


      16        grandfathered in for purposes of a zoning


      17        district, and right now the date being proposed


      18        is August 9th, which is approximately 90 days


      19        prior to the potential approval of this


      20        ordinance, but I guess I can clarify and go


      21        through all this once we get to that amendment.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Gabriel, were any


      23        facilities allowed to open between the


      24        introduction of this bill on August 9th?


      25             MR. GABRIEL:  I guess the answer would be




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        yes because my understanding is the bill was


       2        introduced, I believe, in April, around that


       3        time.  I know it was subbed and rereferred


       4        several weeks ago.  And if we're going to use


       5        the August 9th date, then probably the answer to


       6        that question is yes.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  But you're not sure?


       8             MR. GABRIEL:  I'm not sure.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  And what constitutes


      10        validity for being in businesses prior to


      11        August 9th when they come in to get their


      12        permit?


      13             MR. GABRIEL:  That's a fact-based question,


      14        which would be, I guess, contingent on many


      15        pieces of evidence that they could provide.


      16             Perhaps I -- I believe a lot of these


      17        establishments -- because we don't currently


      18        have the regulatory framework citywide, they --


      19        I'm willing to assume that a lot of them haven't


      20        issued certificates of use or certain other, you


      21        know, permits or approvals or other possible


      22        ways of proving that.


      23             It's a good question --


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I'd rather it be one


      25        that was addressed objectively than




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        subjectively, so perhaps you can be thinking


       2        about how -- you know, what we can include in an


       3        amendment to list what would qualify as -- I


       4        mean, if someone just walks in and says, "Yeah,"


       5        I mean, how are we to -- I mean, how are we


       6        going to verify that?  So be thinking about


       7        that.


       8             MR. GABRIEL:  Sure.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Mr. Bishop.


      10             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      11             The question -- I think this may be a


      12        question for Dylan with respect to the comments


      13        that Mr. Mann made.


      14             What exactly are we grandfathering, the


      15        existing site or the existing business owner's


      16        use?  Meaning if a site is grandfathered, what


      17        happens -- well, I guess that's my question.


      18             Does the owner of a particular number of


      19        these facilities have the ability to move them


      20        around the city at will and still be


      21        grandfathered in because they owned a business


      22        that operated such prior to the specific date?


      23             MR. GABRIEL:  Okay.  The -- Jason Gabriel,


      24        through the Chair to Councilman Bishop, there is


      25        a provision in the ordinance as it stands now.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        It's under section -- just give me a moment


       2        here -- 156.106(K)(2).  I believe it's on


       3        page 28 or so -- which states that permits may


       4        be transferred to another premise, but that


       5        premise would have to be -- it would have to be


       6        an approved zoning district, and so -- let's put


       7        it this way:  If it's a use that's grandfathered


       8        in in a particular premise as it stands today,


       9        in order to be transferred to another premise,


      10        that other premise would have to meet all of the


      11        current zoning requirements, you know, whether


      12        it's the 750 feet, whether it's the 500 feet


      13        rule with respect to residential zoning


      14        districts, comes into effect.


      15             So I guess to -- sort of a long-winded way


      16        to answer the question is they would be


      17        grandfathered where they are today.  They would


      18        not be grandfathered in if they were to transfer


      19        to another premise.  Those premises would have


      20        to meet the standards that are set forth in this


      21        ordinance that we're approving.


      22             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  With respect -- okay.


      23        I understand that part, but with respect to the


      24        numbers, the bill says that those that exist


      25        today are grandfathered in, but at some point




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        there's a cap of 20 so that if some of these go


       2        away, they're not allowed to replicate, but if


       3        you have -- but that tells me, then, that if you


       4        have an existing license to operate one, you can


       5        move that around to suit yourself, which would


       6        mean -- which would mean the total number would


       7        not fall below 20 until such time as some of the


       8        existing operators decided to permanently close


       9        a site; is that correct?


      10             MR. GABRIEL:  That is correct, yes.


      11             And actually the provision right before


      12        this one, Provision (K)(1), in the ordinance, it


      13        reads, "transfer to another entity."  That may


      14        be what -- I believe what you're referring to.


      15             Right now there's a prohibition on


      16        transferring permits, period.  One of the items


      17        contemplated in this proposed amendment is to


      18        allow a onetime transfer because we get into --


      19        and we could get into this if you'd like, but


      20        some issues pertaining to the pecuniary value of


      21        the permit.  One way to handle that is to just


      22        allow transferability.


      23             I understand that a big function of this


      24        ordinance is to stop the proliferation and, if


      25        anything, reduce the permits eventually to 20,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        so a way to, I guess, attack that would be to


       2        perhaps allow for a onetime transfer, but,


       3        again, eventually, you know, with a goal that it


       4        would go away at some point.


       5             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Gabriel, you're saying


       7        the transfer of the ownership is prohibited by


       8        (K)(1) on page 27; is that what you're saying?


       9             MR. GABRIEL:  Right now the way that the


      10        ordinance reads, yes, correct.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  But is there a limitation to


      12        the transfer of the -- to a different site?  I


      13        don't see that limitation.  Where is that


      14        limitation?


      15             MR. GABRIEL:  Right now there is no


      16        limitation on being -- and that's the next


      17        section, Section 2.  There is no prohibition on


      18        transferring to another site.  The only --


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  So as long as the ownership


      20        stayed the same, they could continually move?


      21             MR. GABRIEL:  Exactly.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, what constitutes


      23        closure?  What constitutes the number today,


      24        whatever it is, 53 -- what's the number, 56,


      25        53?




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. MANN:  I'm not sure anybody knows the


       2        exact number, but that should be an approximate


       3        number.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let's say it's 56.  What


       5        constitutes going from 56 to 55?  What does that


       6        56th unit have to do to be no longer on the


       7        radar screen as a viable operating location?


       8        Would it have to be closed for a certain amount


       9        of time?  Do they have to be --


      10             MR. KELLY:  I mean, I would say if they


      11        become in violation of their permitting


      12        requirements, 155 and 156, through the eyes of


      13        JSO, as the enforcing agency, for that, that --


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  You would say that or you


      15        know for a fact that's the case?


      16             MR. KELLY:  I don't know if that's the


      17        case, but --


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I'm -- with all due


      19        respect, I'm trying to avoid speculation here,


      20        so if we could get a specific answer on that --


      21        I mean, if they close for a week and go on


      22        vacation, does that -- do they go away?  If they


      23        close for a month --


      24             MR. KELLY:  Just from the zoning


      25        standpoint, if the use ceases for a period of




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        more than six months and we date that based upon


       2        electrical usage as it relates -- we pull


       3        electric meter billage [sic] through JEA.  So if


       4        it ceases for more than six months, then the use


       5        is lost.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  And what's your definition


       7        of "electric ceasage [sic]"?  Is that just a


       8        lower monthly bill or no electric consumption?


       9        I mean --


      10             MR. KELLY:  No.  It's based on actual


      11        usage.  So if you see an established pattern of


      12        usage for the last year and then it drops at a


      13        certain month to -- you know, a significant


      14        amount, then -- then that's what we have


      15        historically used as a --


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  That sounds very subjective.


      17             Mr. Gabriel, do you have anything else to


      18        add to that?


      19             MR. GABRIEL:  I mean, it's certainly a good


      20        point from a zoning perspective, what Mr. Kelly


      21        is bringing up.  I mean, there's a provision in


      22        there right now in reference to zoning and the


      23        use, that after six months -- and that's in


      24        there now, but right now the way the ordinance


      25        reads, no, there is no provision for how we




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        would objectively determine the termination or


       2        expiration of a permit.  So if that's something


       3        that this committee would like to add, we can


       4        certainly entertain that and --


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you.


       6             Only speaking as one member of the


       7        committee, I am a lot further away from voting


       8        for this than I was when I sat down tonight, but


       9        you wanted to bring this up and we're going to


      10        plow through it unless there's objections, but I


      11        am -- I am more uncomfortable now about what I'm


      12        hearing than I was when I came in here this


      13        morning -- or this afternoon, and I really am


      14        concerned about this bill at the moment, so --


      15             Mr. Redman, you're next on the queue.


      16             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


      17             Whoever can answer this.  The mom and pop


      18        places that came before us that wanted -- had


      19        the use of these things in their, you know,


      20        small establishments -- and I understand that


      21        they, you know, would allow children to come


      22        into these establishments, children -- grown


      23        children to work in their establishments.  Was


      24        this something that was amended into this?  And,


      25        if so, how was it amended in?  Or is it just




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        part of the bill now that we have to consider as


       2        a whole?


       3             Mr. Gabriel, I guess --


       4             MR. GABRIEL:  Sure.


       5             Through the Chair to Councilman Redman, one


       6        of the -- this has not been amended yet.  One of


       7        the things in the proposed amendment before you


       8        and in that summary is to allow for operators


       9        of -- or establishments that have five or less


      10        machines to only allow the employment of minors


      11        in such facilities because I guess there could


      12        be establishments such as restaurants and


      13        whatnot that employ minors, so the proposed


      14        amendment would allow minors only in those


      15        establishments that have five or less operators


      16        and the minors would only be allowed in there


      17        for purposes of employment.


      18             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  These would be


      19        establishments that might be serving alcohol as


      20        well?


      21             MR. GABRIEL:  Well, yes, because the


      22        alcoholic establishment prohibition is for ten


      23        or more, establishments that have ten or more


      24        machines, so it's conceivable that you'd have an


      25        establishment that had, you know, five or less




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        machines and that sold alcohol.  It's possible.


       2             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman, as I understand


       4        it -- and Mr. Mann can correct me if I'm


       5        wrong -- the original draft, I guess, that's


       6        actually before us, notwithstanding the


       7        amendment that's also on the desk, the original


       8        draft called for all kinds of things that these


       9        operators had to do, on-site security, a drop


      10        safe, a huge licensing fee of like -- what was


      11        it, $40 a day or something?


      12             MR. MANN:  Not $40 a day.  I believe it's


      13        $50 a machine, $2,000 for a premise, and $500


      14        for a permit.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  And some of the smaller


      16        users objected, and I guess there's an amendment


      17        now to kind of reduce some of those because it


      18        was going to pretty much put them out of


      19        business, so they've objected.  And there's an


      20        amendment to kind of do away with some of those


      21        requirements and lower those amounts of payments


      22        so that they can stay in, but that's not in the


      23        bill presently.  That's in the amendment form.


      24             Councilman Reggie Brown.


      25             MR. R. BROWN:  Yes.  Through the Chair,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        this question comes up dealing with the -- the


       2        current number of applications filed in order to


       3        open up one of these facilities right now.  I


       4        think that, from what I'm hearing, it's -- it's


       5        unclear?


       6             Yes, sir.


       7             MR. KELLY:  I can respond to that.


       8             I believe -- given the number of facilities


       9        that currently exist, essentially we would not


      10        allow a new place to open without having the


      11        license and the permit issued through the


      12        sheriff's office, which met the distance


      13        requirements.


      14             Basically, the -- we wouldn't have any new


      15        ones open up until the number gets below 20.


      16             MR. R. BROWN:  Right.  I understand.


      17             MR. KELLY:  Okay.


      18             MR. R. BROWN:  But today do we have any


      19        applications out there right now that's seeking


      20        to open up one of these facilities?


      21             MR. KELLY:  I have instructed the zoning


      22        counter basically to cease any kind of issuance


      23        of any certificate of uses for new facilities


      24        that would attempt to come in.


      25             Now, whether or not businesses have opened




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        in the meantime, that may be the case.  It's not


       2        until typically after somebody pays for an


       3        occupational license to the tax collector that


       4        the zoning counter becomes informed of new


       5        occupational licenses and businesses, and so


       6        there's a -- there's a little delay in that


       7        information coming from the tax collector's


       8        office to the zoning counter, at which point the


       9        zoning counter then initiates a letter to all


      10        these businesses for them to obtain a


      11        certificate of use and be evaluated as to


      12        consistency for zoning.  So there's probably


      13        about a six- to eight-month delay, so I don't


      14        know how many -- probably the tax collector


      15        would be the best person.


      16             And the names -- unfortunately, the names


      17        of the different facilities vary significantly,


      18        so there's not, like, a -- it's not a square peg


      19        you can put in -- put them all in.


      20             MR. R. BROWN:  I understand.


      21             And the second question -- because I


      22        understand that -- in terms of determining the


      23        date, we looked at August 9th, 2010,


      24        Mr. Chairman -- you know, I think I heard fact


      25        finding as -- so -- which, to me -- I guess it




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        goes in a direction of a legal concern.  If


       2        challenged -- if an applicant wanted to


       3        challenge the fact -- because I know if they're


       4        a 501(c)(3), if they have a recorded meeting,


       5        just say today's date, that they had a recorded


       6        meeting, it was a discussion about implementing


       7        a plan, does that constitute, you know, being


       8        eligible or would that kind of take us down the


       9        direction -- or -- of being challenged in


      10        court?  And then would that put our counsel in


      11        the posture of defending the proposed date of


      12        implementation looking at August 9th, 2010?  How


      13        would that -- that work?


      14             MR. REINGOLD:  Well, I think -- as


      15        Mr. Gabriel stated, I mean, it would be a


      16        fact-based question, and obviously Mr. Gabriel


      17        stated, you know, if you guys wanted to give


      18        some guidance to the Planning and Development


      19        Department as to what facts you want them to


      20        consider or look at, I mean, some of the things


      21        could be as if they have receipts, if they have


      22        a COU, and any other documented evidence that


      23        they have been operating these machines on their


      24        premise since August 9th, 2010.


      25             Essentially, it would fall -- and




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Mr. Gabriel can correct me if I'm wrong.  He's


       2        worked this bill much more than I have -- is --


       3        under the zoning code, the Planning and


       4        Development Department would sort of be the sort


       5        of enforcer and administrator of the code in


       6        determination of whether it met, you know,


       7        the -- had the evidence or it was open by a


       8        certain date.


       9             MR. R. BROWN:  Okay.  Mr. Chairman, would


      10        it be better -- to the best interest of the


      11        city, then, to move the date forward to give


      12        folks -- applicants the opportunity to apply?


      13             That way we can say that we did due


      14        diligence versus backdating this to August 9th,


      15        moving it forward and everyone that's interested


      16        in applying would have that opportunity,


      17        because, like we stated, we -- we really don't


      18        know the number of folks that have an


      19        application on file or have initiated any


      20        process.


      21             MR. REINGOLD:  To the council member, I


      22        don't think there's an application process that


      23        exists today, so there's no way for someone to


      24        apply for this type of establishment.


      25             MR. KELLY:  I think the issue is -- the




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        department, whether it's JSO or another


       2        department of the City, as Dylan said, is going


       3        to evaluate whether or not they existed and were


       4        operating legitimately prior to the August


       5        date.


       6             Now, whether or not 30 or 40 or 50 of those


       7        come forward and demonstrate that, effectively


       8        all of those are grandfathered.  However, I


       9        believe -- my understanding is we're only


      10        issuing 20 permits, so they may get a permit for


      11        that location, while, in effect, if we've got


      12        more than 20 that are out there, the other ones


      13        that are out there are not necessarily going to


      14        get a permit.  They're just going to be


      15        grandfathered.


      16             MR. R. BROWN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Now, that -- I'm not sure I


      18        understand that, based on my reading of the


      19        bill.


      20             You're telling me that the first 20 that


      21        come in will get a permit and the other 33 or 36


      22        don't get anything?


      23             MR. REINGOLD:  That's not true.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  You know --


      25        all right.  We're still in public hearing,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        believe it or not.


       2             Any other questions for Mr. Mann?


       3             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Mann, you've done a


       5        great job answering all these questions,


       6        outstanding job.


       7             MR. MANN:  Thank you very much.  I've had


       8        more than capable legal counsel.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any other questions for


      10        Mr. Mann in the public hearing?


      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you,


      13        Mr. Mann.


      14             MR. MANN:  Thank you.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Did you check your card and


      16        turn it back in?


      17             MR. MANN:  Yes, sir.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      19             Our next speaker's card is Kelly Mathis.


      20             (Mr. Mathis approaches the podium.)


      21             MR. MATHIS:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Mathis, are you a


      23        registered lobbyist on this issue?


      24             MR. MATHIS:  Yes.  Yes, sir.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  You need to check




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        your card as well.


       2             MR. MATHIS:  I apologize for not filling


       3        that in completely.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead.


       5             MR. MATHIS:  Okay.  Kelly Mathis, 1200


       6        Riverplace Boulevard, representing Allied


       7        Veterans.


       8             Let me address, first, the -- this 500 feet


       9        issue, and I want to make sure that it's


      10        absolutely clear.


      11             That 500 feet restriction was floated and


      12        voted down by the Planning Commission, and


      13        there's several reasons why.


      14             Yes, I recognize that every location


      15        existing now is grandfathered in, but, by our


      16        analysis, if any of those locations try to move,


      17        for instance, on University Boulevard, which is


      18        one of the locations -- several locations exist,


      19        there is only one section of University


      20        Boulevard that would meet the criteria of that


      21        restriction.  That is the section between


      22        Philips Highway and, I guess -- Philips Highway


      23        and I-95, a place where there is rundown motels,


      24        where there are strip clubs.


      25             You are basically going to be subjecting an




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Internet center -- Internet centers that are


       2        usually in a strip center to a restriction that


       3        no other business that operates 24 hours has,


       4        that no other business that sells alcohol --


       5        and -- and the ones over ten don't have alcohol


       6        at all -- that no other business in the city is


       7        going to be restricted.


       8             You're going to be putting them in the same


       9        class as full-frontal nudity, which is just


      10        absolutely restricting them to a very narrow


      11        section of town and creating the very situation


      12        that I don't even think that the Planning


      13        Department wants to have, and so you need to


      14        recognize that a lot of these locations are in


      15        strip centers.  The strip centers are facing


      16        commercial thoroughfares.  They may back up


      17        very, very closely to residential neighborhoods,


      18        but those are in the back of the strip center.


      19             The activity that these centers have, it's


      20        in the front of the center, it's not in the


      21        back.  So by restricting them in this way is


      22        going to be very, very burdensome and prevent


      23        their ability to move virtually at all within


      24        the city.


      25             Now, the number of permits will reduce by




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        attrition.  First they have to meet the initial


       2        criteria of the application and the regulation.


       3        There's quite a few of them that we think won't


       4        be able to meet that criteria.  That's going to


       5        result in that initial reduction of permits and


       6        locations that has been the concern of the


       7        council, the concern of Councilman Hyde from the


       8        get-go, then you're going to have reduction by


       9        attrition.  When businesses close, when people


      10        retire and close their businesses, that's going


      11        to give the reduction over time.


      12             So we think there are mechanisms in place,


      13        there are heavy regulations in place, there are


      14        provisions for smaller operations.  If you


      15        impose the first -- for instance -- I'm sorry,


      16        my time is up.  I'm open for questions.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  You can finish your


      18        statement.


      19             MR. MATHIS:  Okay.  If you impose those


      20        distance restrictions, you're going to have more


      21        restrictive requirements than even convenience


      22        stores, gas stations.  These places are


      23        community services where people sometimes go at


      24        3 o'clock in the morning to get on the Internet


      25        because they can't sleep.  It's simply an




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        unworkable proposal.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Mathis.


       3             The original bill didn't allow them to move


       4        at all, correct?


       5             MR. MATHIS:  The original bill, I think,


       6        did allow them -- well, the original bill


       7        allowed them not to exist at all.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Right.  So they couldn't


       9        move, then.


      10             MR. MATHIS:  They couldn't move, they


      11        couldn't exist at all.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  And if we ever fall below


      13        20, what's the mechanism in the bill to issue


      14        whatever is below 20 in new permits?  Is there a


      15        mechanism?


      16             MR. MATHIS:  Yeah.  There is a mechanism


      17        that permits -- new permits cannot be issued


      18        until the number drops below 20.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  I understand that.


      20             The question is, what's the mechanism to


      21        issue the new permit -- it drops from 20 to 19,


      22        who gets the 20th permit?


      23             MR. MATHIS:  There's an application


      24        process, and that application, the first person


      25        that files the application when it drops to 19




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        is the next in line for the permit, and the


       2        applications have to be renewed annually.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, that's a process that


       4        I personally wouldn't trust, then, because


       5        there's going to be inside knowledge.


       6        Somebody's going to get to the door first or


       7        somebody's going to know somebody and their


       8        application is going to get dated or put to the


       9        top of the stack, and I think that's grossly


      10        unfair.


      11             What about a lottery procedure, would you


      12        be amenable to that?


      13             MR. MATHIS:  No objection to that at all.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  How about an auction?


      15             MR. MATHIS:  The goal -- if it benefits the


      16        City and the City wants to raise money, I guess,


      17        by doing it and they have that kind of perceived


      18        value --


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you ever perceive


      20        shenanigans in the City government?


      21             MR. MATHIS:  I hope not, but --


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  I didn't ask you that.


      23             I said, do you perceive any?  That's a


      24        yes-or-no question.


      25             MR. MATHIS:  I -- it's possible.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       2             MR. MATHIS:  It's possible.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  I think it would be


       4        really possible with something like this at


       5        stake, so --


       6             All right.  Any questions for Mr. Mathis?


       7             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you,


       9        Mr. Mathis.  Don't go far.


      10             Was there another speaker card that had


      11        come in?


      12             MS. DAVIS:  Yes.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  And, Mr. Mathis, if you'll


      14        check your card --


      15             MR. MATHIS:  Oh, I'm sorry.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- and return it, please.


      17             Laurie Lee.


      18             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi, Mr. Chairman.


      20             Laurie Lee, 1200 Riverplace Boulevard,


      21        Suite 902.


      22             I too represent Allied Veterans.


      23             I wanted to speak because I personally


      24        appeared before the Planning Commission, and


      25        they had virtually the exact same discussion




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        we're having tonight, with one major difference,


       2        and that was the presence of Councilmember Hyde,


       3        who addressed many of the concerns that -- these


       4        concerns he addressed in the Planning Commission


       5        and specifically addressed many of the Planning


       6        Department's concerns in this manner:  He said


       7        many of those concerns are policy issues.


       8             (Mr. Hyde enters the proceedings.)


       9             MS. LEE:  Perfect timing.  I couldn't have


      10        asked for better, so I will defer to


      11        Councilmember Hyde.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Hyde, welcome.


      13             What excellent timing.


      14             (Mr. Hyde approaches the podium.)


      15             MR. HYDE:  Can I go home now,


      16        Mr. Crescimbeni?


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  I was hoping you were going


      18        to let us go home.  I thought you were going


      19        to --


      20             MR. HYDE:  Well, we can do that with a


      21        quick, affirmative vote.


      22             I apologize for being late.  I was in


      23        another meeting.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  And you're welcome to come


      25        and sit up here if you'd like.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HYDE:  That's fine, whatever.


       2             What questions specifically do you want me


       3        to address or -- that have been raised?  I don't


       4        want to repeat.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, this bill was


       6        originally deferred this evening.  Some of the


       7        folks in the audience wanted us to take it up.


       8        We kind of have bobbled it a little bit as we've


       9        walked through this process.


      10             We're in the public hearing right now, and


      11        I guess we've gotten off on a discussion about


      12        perhaps -- at the Planning Department's


      13        recommendation, some distance limitations with


      14        regard to CCG-2 and CCG-1 zoning where it


      15        relates to nearby residential properties.


      16             MR. HYDE:  Let me --


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Lee was just stating, as


      18        you probably were coming down the hall, that the


      19        Planning Commission dealt with this issue as


      20        well and rejected it based on your attendance


      21        at --


      22             MR. HYDE:  Yeah.  Let me go ahead and just


      23        give you real briefly kind of the -- the


      24        rationale behind that.


      25             And, as all of you know, because you --




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        you're on various other committees, this bill


       2        has had kind of a tortured history from its


       3        original intent, which is mine, and some of your


       4        cosponsors, to -- to ban, if possible, the


       5        complete use of these machines throughout Duval


       6        County.


       7             For various reasons, I think we have now


       8        reached a point of compromise that's acceptable


       9        to my stated goal, which was, if not eliminate,


      10        certainly greatly proscribe and limit the number


      11        of these machines.


      12             One of the things that we have to consider


      13        that this bill does and in which I told the


      14        Planning Commission, at least in my


      15        seven-and-a-half years, I think it's somewhat --


      16        it's probably the only time we've gone to this


      17        level of regulation on a particular industry


      18        without outright banning it, and that -- that is


      19        one of the reasons that I feel more comfortable


      20        not imposing some of the distance limitations


      21        that the Planning Commission -- or the -- some


      22        of the planning staff had recommended, in which


      23        the Planning Commission had rejected as a


      24        notion.


      25             For instance, in the larger facilities you




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        have armed security requirements; you have drop


       2        safe requirements; you have signage, both


       3        interior and exterior, which I think deals with


       4        the issue of precisely the type of activity


       5        which is going on there that regulates it.  It


       6        is not gambling, but on the same token it does


       7        not allow a person to believe that they are


       8        going to be engaged in a gambling-type


       9        situation.


      10             Many of these facilities, as you know,


      11        particularly, again, the larger ones, have moved


      12        into what have been previously abandoned


      13        buildings.  The larger ones require very large


      14        spaces, like a Barnhill's Country Cafe, I forget


      15        some of the other ones.  And to some degree,


      16        they have fulfilled a useful purpose, which is


      17        going into a place -- instead of having an


      18        abandoned building, you have some activity.


      19             You note that this substitute that we are


      20        currently considering has a place for bars and


      21        pool halls already which are existing, and one


      22        of the reasons for them being in there and why


      23        we crafted that very narrow exception as to the


      24        number of machines is because, frankly, it


      25        provides revenue that allows these places to




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        keep open.  It was never my intent to put people


       2        out of a job or to shut our businesses because


       3        that has a -- as we all know, another very


       4        adverse effect.


       5             So that was some of the reasons that I


       6        argued against some of the limitations and


       7        restrictions that were suggested by the Planning


       8        Department.


       9             One of the things, I think, that the


      10        Planning Commission -- not to speak for them,


      11        but at least as I heard their comments -- that


      12        motivated them to reject those was the fact that


      13        because of the very intense regulation, the


      14        requirements -- the distance requirements,


      15        et cetera, aren't necessary.  Because we're so


      16        tightly prescribing what they are otherwise


      17        allowed to do and where that activity goes on,


      18        it is in a very secure environment; no alcohol,


      19        no minors on premises except in the case of very


      20        small establishments where only an employee who


      21        is a minor could be present.


      22             So that was, I think, some of the -- the


      23        nature of the discussion that went on at the


      24        Planning Commission, which ultimately, I think,


      25        led to their decision.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Any questions in particular?


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any questions for Mr. Hyde?


       3             Mr. Brown.


       4             MR. R. BROWN:  No, not for Mr. Hyde.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Hyde.


       6             We appreciate you coming in.


       7             MR. HYDE:  Thank you.


       8             Sorry about being late, guys.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  And if you want to take a


      10        seat up here, there may be some questions --


      11             MR. HYDE:  Okay.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- unless you're --


      13             MR. HYDE:  Sure.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Anyone else care


      15        to address the committee?


      16             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Lee, were you finished?


      18             MS. LEE:  Yes, Mr. Chair.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Anyone else care


      20        to address the committee?


      21             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no one,


      23        then, the public hearing is closed and we're


      24        back in committee.


      25             Mr. Holt.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


       2             Hearing all this tonight, I'm catching a


       3        lot of it for the first time.  And, at this


       4        point, I'm not comfortable with this amendment,


       5        but I would like to offer an opportunity for us


       6        to defer this.  If the majority of the committee


       7        would like to defer it, I would like to take


       8        this back and talk to some folks about the


       9        particulars of this amendment because at this


      10        point I'm not comfortable with it.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Are you offering a motion to


      12        defer it?


      13             MR. HOLT:  Yes.  I'm offering a motion to


      14        defer.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is there a second to the


      16        motion?


      17             MR. R. BROWN:  Second.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Second by Mr. Brown.


      19             Any discussion on the motion?


      20             I'm sorry, Reggie Brown.  This other one --


      21        see, his wife calls him Richard, and I see


      22        the "R," and I'm thinking, which Brown is that,


      23        so --


      24             All right.  Motion by Mr. Holt, second by


      25        Councilman Reggie Brown.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Discussion on the motion?


       2             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  If not, all those in -- do


       4        we have to put this on the board or just voice?


       5             MS. LAHMEUR:  Voice.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  All those in favor say yes.


       7             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Yes.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Opposed say no.


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  By our action, we have


      11        deferred this bill.


      12             Now, let me say this:  I'm going to reopen


      13        the public hearing and we will continue it until


      14        November 16th, and we'll take this item up first


      15        at our November 16th meeting.


      16             What I would like is for someone from the


      17        group that's out there in the audience today to


      18        come up to the podium and give us a -- you know,


      19        whatever time you need, ten, fifteen minutes --


      20        a history on where we are today and where you


      21        want us to go with regard to this amendment.  I


      22        think that would be very helpful, to kind of


      23        talk about the bill that was introduced, how it


      24        got morphed to what's before us in these --


      25        because I've got two -- it looks like three




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        pieces of paper on my desk here with regard


       2        to -- is this all the same amendment?  I don't


       3        know, but --


       4             And if you have any questions about that,


       5        give me a call and we'll get that all ironed


       6        out, but I think that would be very helpful to


       7        start off even prior to hearing from the


       8        Planning Department again, just to -- kind of a


       9        little history lesson.


      10             And I would encourage you to get with the


      11        Planning Department between now and two weeks


      12        from now and try to get some of these issues


      13        ironed out because there seems to be a lot of


      14        confusion about a lot of components of the bill,


      15        and I don't think it's fair for the committee to


      16        vote on something that even the staff may not be


      17        up to speed on.


      18             Councilman Dick Brown.


      19             MR. D. BROWN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      20             You made a good point about sorting out


      21        some of the issues.  One of the things I'd love


      22        to see us come back with is -- there's a lot of


      23        work that's been done, two very distinct


      24        positions.  If -- try to come up with some


      25        compromises, it appears, but there seems to be a




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        tone of, do we want to work at putting them out


       2        of business or are we working toward compromises


       3        that make these work and suit most everybody?


       4             And I would hope that when we crank up


       5        again, we're -- because some of the amendments


       6        appear to be, make it as difficult as we can and


       7        perhaps they won't be able to move if they're


       8        trying to move to a new location or whatever.


       9             I thought we were marching toward a lot of


      10        hard-working compromises that have been hammered


      11        out and this was the final touch, so I -- I'm


      12        just tossing that out, that maybe we could kind


      13        of mentally adjust a little and see what makes


      14        it work for the neighborhoods, but the distance


      15        things actually seem artificial because


      16        they're -- they're going to be in little


      17        shopping centers and they're not noisy, they're


      18        not -- they don't have live bands and all this


      19        sort of thing that we quite often deal with,


      20        and -- and yet we use the term "nuisances" over


      21        and over, and it doesn't seem to fit what the


      22        real world is bringing in terms of these


      23        things.


      24             So that's got me kind of looking at both


      25        sides.  Which -- which are we trying to do, make




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        it as difficult as possible or just come up with


       2        reasonable regulations on top of more


       3        regulations?


       4             MR. HYDE:  Mr. Chairman, can I --


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown.


       6             That's a good point.


       7             Mr. Hyde.


       8             MR. HYDE:  Yeah, I want to be real clear.


       9             And, Mr. Brown, you raise a really good


      10        point.  This amendment and this bill is the


      11        product of compromise of any number of groups,


      12        any number of council members with whom I've had


      13        noticed meetings.  With all due respect, the


      14        only people who aren't buying into the


      15        compromise is the Planning Department, and the


      16        Planning Commission has already rejected that.


      17             I would argue that this has been the


      18        product of hours and hours and hours of


      19        compromise, not only among council members but


      20        among the groups that are most affected on


      21        that.  We really are down to the final piece.  I


      22        had hoped today, not only through your committee


      23        but through PHS, that we could pass a final bill


      24        to have ready on November 9th, and there's no


      25        great magic to that other than every baby needs




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to be birthed at some point.


       2             The sheriff raised a point with me this


       3        morning around 11 o'clock which is a very valid


       4        point and certainly, I think, all of us give


       5        great deference to the sheriff when he raises a


       6        point.  We are working through that.  In fact,


       7        even this afternoon, I think, have found a -- an


       8        acceptable place.


       9             So I don't want any of you to think that


      10        we're -- that any group is not on board with


      11        this.  The compromises have been incorporated


      12        into what I understand is a very large bill.


      13        I'm very comfortable with it as the bill


      14        sponsor.  I'm ready to move it.


      15             And, Mr. Chairman, if you will permit, on


      16        the 16th I'll try to be here to give you that


      17        full history, but I just don't want to leave the


      18        impression that we're not there.  In my mind,


      19        we're there.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Hyde.


      21             It's a big bill, but it's not as big as the


      22        animal welfare bill, so --


      23             All right.  Any other comments or


      24        questions?


      25             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Mr. Redman,


       2        again, thank you for the -- taking care of the


       3        agenda meeting.  I appreciate that.


       4             And, with that, we will -- we stand


       5        adjourned until the 16th.


       6             Thank you all.


       7             (The above proceedings were adjourned at


       8        6:42 p.m.)


       9                         -  -  -




































        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                  C E R T I F I C A T E




       3   STATE OF FLORIDA:


       4   COUNTY OF DUVAL :




       6             I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was


       7   authorized to and did stenographically report the


       8   foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a


       9   true and complete record of my stenographic notes.


      10             Dated this 7th day of November, 2010.








      14                                 Diane M. Tropia


























        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203