1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE


       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING


       3                         COMMITTEE






       6             Proceedings held on Tuesday, September 21,


       7   2010, commencing at 5:05 p.m., City Hall, Council


       8   Chambers, 1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before


       9   Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State


      10   of Florida at Large.




      12   PRESENT:


      13        JOHN CRESCIMBENI, Chair.

                RAY HOLT, Vice Chair.

      14        WILLIAM BISHOP, Committee Member.

                DON REDMAN, Committee Member.

      15        STEPHEN JOOST, Committee Member.

                REGGIE BROWN, Committee Member.

      16        DICK BROWN, Committee Member



           ALSO PRESENT:


                MICHAEL CORRIGAN, City Council Member.

      19        WARREN JONES, City Council Member.

                JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

      20        SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

                FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.

      21        KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.

                STEPHEN SMITH, Planning and Development Dept.

      22        DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.

                MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.

      23        SHARONDA DAVIS, Legislative Assistant.


      24                         -  -  -







        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   September 21, 2010                      5:05 p.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Good evening,


       5        everyone.


       6             This is the September 21st version -- or


       7        edition of the Land Use and zoning Committee.


       8             Sorry for the delay.  We have to have a


       9        quorum of four council members that are on the


      10        committee.  We have an extra council member


      11        that's sitting in tonight.  He's not on the


      12        committee, so our fourth one has arrived.  So


      13        we'll go ahead and begin our meeting by just


      14        going around the dais and having everyone


      15        introduce themselves.


      16             I'm the chairperson, Councilman John


      17        Crescimbeni.


      18             And, Mr. Crofts, if you'll take it from


      19        there.


      20             MR. CROFTS:  Hi.


      21             My name is John Crofts, representing the


      22        Planning and Development Department.


      23             MR. KELLY:  Sean Kelly, Planning and


      24        Development.


      25             MR. HUXFORD:  Folks Huxford, Planning and




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Development.


       2             MR. AVERY:  Ken Avery, Planning and


       3        Development.


       4             MR. REINGOLD:  Dylan Reingold with the


       5        Office of General Counsel.


       6             MR. JOOST:  Stephen Joost, Group 3,


       7        at-large.


       8             MR. BISHOP:  Bill Bishop, District 2.


       9             MR. REDMAN:  Don Redman.


      10             MR. CORRIGAN:  Michael Corrigan,


      11        District 14.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, everyone, for


      13        being here tonight.


      14             If anybody needs a copy of the agenda,


      15        they're available on the front desk.  And if you


      16        look through the agenda, you'll see some notes


      17        on there with regard to what action we're going


      18        to take tonight.  Some of the bills that are


      19        marked for "no other action" will have public


      20        hearings this evening, but the public hearing


      21        will be opened and it will be continued until a


      22        future date.


      23             If you're interested in speaking during the


      24        public hearing, you're certainly more than


      25        welcome to do so, although we won't be taking




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        any action.  You may want to reserve your


       2        comments for a future meeting, at which point we


       3        do take action, but that's entirely up to you.


       4             Mr. Reingold.


       5             MR. REINGOLD:  Good evening, Chair.


       6             To the audience, anyone who would like to


       7        address the committee today must fill out a


       8        yellow speaker card in its entirety.  The yellow


       9        speaker cards are located on the desk up front,


      10        near the podium.  Once completed, please return


      11        the speaker's card to the basket on the front


      12        desk.


      13             Any person who lobbies the City for


      14        compensation is considered a lobbyist and is


      15        therefore required to register their lobbying


      16        activity with the City Council secretary.  If


      17        you are a lobbyist and have not registered with


      18        the City Council secretary, you will not be


      19        permitted to address the committee tonight.


      20             Because a verbatim transcript of this


      21        meeting will be prepared by a court reporter, it


      22        is important that you speak clearly into the


      23        microphone when you address the committee.  It's


      24        also important that only one speaker speak at a


      25        time.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Any tangible material submitted with a


       2        speaker's presentation, such as documents,


       3        photographs, plans, drawings, et cetera, shall


       4        become a permanent part of the public record and


       5        will be retained by this committee.


       6             As a courtesy, please switch any cell


       7        phones, pagers, or audible devices to a silent


       8        mode.


       9             Additionally, there will be no public


      10        display of support or opposition, so please


      11        refrain from applause or speaking out of turn.


      12             Items are generally addressed in the order


      13        in which they are listed on the agenda.  Copies


      14        of the agenda are located on the desk up front,


      15        near the podium.


      16             On occasion, items will be heard out of


      17        order for the sake of efficiency or to


      18        accommodate scheduling conflicts.


      19             (Mr. D. Brown enters the proceedings.)


      20             Unless there is a formal hearing on a


      21        particular item, each member of the public is


      22        limited to a single three-minute presentation.


      23        Therefore, presentations should be focused,


      24        concise, and address only the item pending


      25        before the committee.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Prior to addressing the committee, please


       2        state your name and address for the court


       3        reporter.


       4             Decisions on rezonings, including PUDs,


       5        waivers of road frontage, sign waivers, and


       6        appeals, are all considered quasi-judicial in


       7        nature and certain protocols will be followed


       8        for these proceedings.


       9             First, each council member must disclose on


      10        the record any ex-parte communications they have


      11        had with any members of the public prior to the


      12        hearing on each applicable item.  This includes


      13        a brief statement of when the communication took


      14        place, who the communication was with, and also


      15        what the subject matter of the communication was


      16        about.


      17             Second, the normal format is to allow the


      18        applicant or agent thereof to make their


      19        presentation first, followed by members of the


      20        public who wish to speak in support of the item,


      21        then members of the public who are in opposition


      22        will be allowed to speak.


      23             After all the public comments have been


      24        received, the applicant will have a brief


      25        opportunity to wrap up or present a brief




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        rebuttal.  The wrap-up or rebuttal shall be


       2        limited to the issues brought up by the


       3        speakers.


       4             In some instances, the Chair may permit a


       5        concise surrebuttal or response to the


       6        applicant's rebuttal, which will be followed by


       7        a brief final response by the applicant.


       8             Finally, all quasi-judicial decisions must


       9        be based on substantial competent evidence,


      10        which means that the committee's decision must


      11        be supported by fact-based testimony or expert


      12        testimony and not generalized concerns or


      13        opinions.


      14             And, finally, I'd like to welcome


      15        Council Member Brown, who has joined us.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Chairman


      17        Reingold.  I was prepared to welcome Mr. Brown,


      18        but you've taken care of that for us.


      19             All right.  Mr. Corrigan, did you want to


      20        take up -- are you here for item 18?  Do you


      21        want to go ahead and take that up now or do you


      22        want to wait?


      23             MR. CORRIGAN:  Mr. Chairman, I would


      24        appreciate that.  I am here for item number 18


      25        on your agenda.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             (Mr. R. Brown enters the proceedings.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Item 18 is a


       3        quasi-judicial matter, so I'm going to ask any


       4        council members to disclose any ex-parte


       5        communication.


       6             I will start by stating for the record that


       7        I had a meeting on the 14th of September with


       8        Wyman Duggan, Logan Rink, Allan DeVault, and


       9        Mike Kleinschmidt (phonetic), and I apologize


      10        for mispronunciations there.  And then also a


      11        meeting yesterday, September 20th, with


      12        Kay Ehas.


      13             Both meetings were just about the project,


      14        and I have reached no conclusions from either of


      15        the meetings.


      16             And I also have a stack of e-mail


      17        correspondence that I've received on this that I


      18        will give to the clerk for the record.


      19             Anyone else have any ex-parte?


      20             MR. JOOST:  Yes.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Councilman Joost.


      22             MR. JOOST:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      23             On -- let's see.  On August 24th, I had a


      24        meeting with Allan DeVault, Jonathan Insetta.


      25        We discussed the merits of the project.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Yesterday I had a meeting with Kay Ehas and


       2        Jack Shad, again, discussing their concerns


       3        about the project.


       4             And, also, on -- yesterday I had a meeting


       5        again with Allan DeVault, Jonathan Insetta, and


       6        Wyman Duggan, again, concerning various aspects


       7        of the project.


       8             Thank you.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Joost.


      10             Let the record reflect that Councilman


      11        Reggie Brown has joined us.


      12             Councilman Bishop, ex-parte.


      13             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      14             I want to declare ex-parte with the same


      15        folks as you, Mr. Chairman, with the addition of


      16        Carmen Godwin yesterday to discuss the various


      17        merits or issues of the project.


      18             Thank you.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Bishop.


      20             Councilman Dick Brown.


      21             MR. D. BROWN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      22             I wanted to record myself as having


      23        ex-parte communications with Mr. Duggan and the


      24        representatives of the project that -- that he


      25        is supporting, and it was a briefing on scale




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        and the scope and details of the project.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown.


       3             Councilman Reggie Brown.


       4             MR. R. BROWN:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.


       5             I'd also like to declare ex-parte.  On


       6        9/16, I had a brief meeting with Mr. Duggan


       7        regarding the project.


       8             Thank you.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown.


      10             Councilman Redman.


      11             MR. REDMAN:  I also need to declare


      12        ex-parte with Mr. Duggan several days ago.


      13             Thank you.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Redman.


      15             Anyone else?


      16             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Indicating.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan.


      18             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      19             I'd like to declare ex-parte communications


      20        on September 15th with Allan DeVault, Jonathan


      21        Insetta, Logan Rink, Wyman Duggan to review a


      22        model of the project.


      23             I'd also like to declare ex-parte on the


      24        next day, 9/16, with Wyman Duggan with -- a


      25        phone call giving me the results of the




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Planning Commission meeting.


       2             And then on 9/17, I had a conversation with


       3        Ms. Carmen Godwin from Riverside Avondale


       4        Preservation regarding this project.


       5             And that concludes my ex-parte.


       6             Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you,


       8        Mr. Corrigan.


       9             We're going to get a report from the


      10        Planning Department before we begin -- before we


      11        open the public hearing, but let me just say, so


      12        everyone knows how we're going to proceed


      13        through the public hearing, we're going to keep


      14        track of all the time from both sides.


      15        Mr. Dylan Reingold is going to serve as the


      16        official timekeeper.  And if one side has more


      17        time at the end of the public hearing than the


      18        other, then we're going to provide that


      19        additional time, if needed, to whichever side


      20        came up short.


      21             We will allow the applicant -- we're going


      22        to try to take the applicant in support first


      23        and then the opposition second.  We will allow


      24        the applicant to rebut at the end, and then


      25        we'll also allow for a surrebuttal by the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        designated person that the opposition wants to


       2        collaborate and choose, and then a very, very


       3        brief rebuttal to the surrebuttal by the


       4        applicant.


       5             So that's how it's going to play out, so


       6        let's begin by going to Mr. Kelly.


       7             Mr. Kelly, the Planning Department report.


       8             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


       9             To the Chair and to the committee members,


      10        ordinance 2010-656 seeks to rezone approximately


      11        .12 acres of land from a planned unit


      12        development, ordinance 2005-695, to a planned


      13        unit development that will consist of new


      14        construction to allow a mixed-use, three-story


      15        building of approximately 19,600 square feet of


      16        enclosed and unenclosed space.


      17             The uses proposed for the site include a


      18        restaurant with an outdoor cafe on the ground


      19        floor as well as commercial, retail, office,


      20        and/or residential uses on the second and third


      21        floors.  In addition, a rooftop lounge is


      22        proposed to be in conjunction with the


      23        restaurant on the ground floor.


      24             (Mr. W. Jones enters the proceedings.)


      25             MR. KELLY:  The site previously was a




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        multifamily residential building that has been


       2        demolished.  The proposed location is -- again,


       3        this is at the corner of Margaret Street and


       4        Oak Street, located within the urban transition


       5        area of the Riverside Avondale Zoning Overlay;


       6        however, this property is not located within the


       7        historic district itself.


       8             The department reviewed this rezoning.  In


       9        fact, this is probably the first rezoning


      10        that's -- well, that's come before you in the


      11        context of the adoption of the overlay since the


      12        criteria -- the additional zoning criteria has


      13        been incorporated into the code, and so there's


      14        a higher scrutiny and level of review that's


      15        required for any rezoning within the overall


      16        Riverside Avondale Zoning Overlay.


      17             With that said, the department finds that


      18        grant of this rezoning, as conditioned, is going


      19        to be consistent with the Riverside Avondale


      20        Zoning Overlay and the historic district


      21        regulations.


      22             Additionally, the department finds that the


      23        conditions related to the architecture of the


      24        building will be enforced at the time of


      25        verification of substantial compliance with the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        PUD for consistency with the overlay.


       2             The department is looking for the


       3        architecture to provide a visual relationship to


       4        the building features and fenestration,


       5        storefront character, the orientation, and the


       6        architectural compatibility with the surrounding


       7        structures and neighborhood.


       8             Additionally, the criteria within the


       9        overlay zone also goes to -- as to whether or


      10        not the rezoning will negatively alter the -- or


      11        affect the character of the character area or


      12        the corridor.


      13             The department finds that this is


      14        supportive of the character area, represents


      15        infill development on vacant land within the


      16        urban transition area.  And, again, as


      17        conditioned, it will be designed to be


      18        sympathetic to the historic architecture and the


      19        neighborhood.


      20             Additionally, we feel that this is in


      21        keeping with the overall development pattern on


      22        the block and compatible with existing uses on


      23        the block and within the neighborhood.


      24             The rezoning will not result in any


      25        destruction of any natural resources.  Again, we




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        find that the rezoning would not have any


       2        negative effect on any contributing structures


       3        within the Avondale historic district --


       4        Riverside Avondale historic district.


       5             The department, in terms of the review for


       6        consistency with the comprehensive plan, again,


       7        we find this to be supportive of commercial


       8        infill on a commercially-designated site that


       9        will support the commercial integrity of a


      10        historic district.  We also find it to be


      11        innovative site planning and a smart growth


      12        technique consistent with policy -- future land


      13        use policy 1.1.10.


      14             Additionally, we find that this PUD, as a


      15        mixed-use project, will enhance rather than


      16        detract from the character of the established


      17        area.  We find it to be consistent with the


      18        comprehensive plan in terms of policy 1.1.23,


      19        which encourages mixed-use development and


      20        revitalization of older areas.


      21             The department also finds that the proposed


      22        PUD is internally compatible.  The proposed


      23        development would allow for a 1,000-square-foot


      24        area for outdoor seating on the ground floor


      25        with a 4,000-square-foot open rooftop restaurant




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        seating area, combined with the other commercial


       2        uses and -- or office uses, which would


       3        alternate various hours of activity.


       4             The department does recommend, for


       5        consistency with the overlay -- I will go


       6        through the conditions.  There are numerous


       7        conditions in this, but we do -- we do feel that


       8        this rezoning, with approval of it as


       9        conditioned, will be consistent with the


      10        Riverside Avondale overlay and the intent of the


      11        overlay and all of the criteria associated with


      12        the building design and the urban transition


      13        area.


      14             The conditions are indicated in the


      15        memorandum dated September 16th, 2010.  The


      16        conditions are as follows:


      17             "The development shall be subject to the


      18        revised site plan dated September 6th, 2010."


      19             Condition 2, "The development shall be


      20        subject to the revised written description dated


      21        September 16, 2010."


      22             Condition 3, "The development shall be


      23        subject to the original legal description dated


      24        July 12th, 2010."


      25             Condition 4, "Prior to verification of




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        substantial compliance of the PUD, all


       2        architectural renderings and building designs


       3        shall be submitted to the Planning and


       4        Development Department for review and approval


       5        by the planning director to ensure consistency


       6        with Section 656.399.34 of the zoning code."


       7             Condition 5, "The maximum allowable wall


       8        sign areas, including under-canopy and awning


       9        signs, shall be limited to 40 square feet in


      10        area per street frontage.


      11             "Additionally, a maximum of 20 square feet


      12        in area of projecting signage shall be permitted


      13        at the southern point of the building provided


      14        it is placed at least 8 feet above the


      15        sidewalk.


      16             "Support structures for the signage shall


      17        be located such that they do not affect the


      18        clear sight triangle for travel lanes or


      19        on-street parking.


      20             "Additionally, all new sidewalks shall be


      21        consistent with Chapter 656" -- "Section


      22        656.399.29 of the zoning code and shall be


      23        constructed with traditional pavers."


      24             Condition 7, "The transportation


      25        improvements shall be made in accordance with




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the Development Services Division memorandum


       2        dated September 9th, 2010, or otherwise approved


       3        by the Planning and Development Department."


       4             The last condition in the memorandum


       5        regarding the urban buffer was incorporated into


       6        the revised written description and is thus no


       7        longer necessary.


       8             The department, again, finds it consistent


       9        with the internal and external requirements for


      10        compatibility with the PUD and are recommending


      11        approval subject to those eight -- seven


      12        conditions.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Kelly.


      14             Mr. Reingold.


      15             MR. REINGOLD:  Just a quick clarification


      16        question for Mr. Kelly.


      17             In condition number -- I guess it's 6, you


      18        said it was -- needs to be consistent with


      19        Section 656.399.29.  In the conditions, in the


      20        memorandum, it's subsection 3.  Was there a


      21        reason to leave out subsection 3 or should that


      22        stay in there?


      23             MR. KELLY:  That should stay in there.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Reingold.


      25             Any questions for Mr. Kelly from the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        committee, before we get into the public


       2        hearing, on the report?


       3             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, we're going to


       5        open the public hearing.  The first speaker will


       6        be Wyman Duggan.


       7             (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Duggan, before you


       9        begin -- I need you to state your name and


      10        address for the record.  But before we start the


      11        clock, I have a question for you.


      12             So go ahead and just state your name and


      13        address for the record.


      14             MR. DUGGAN:  Wyman Duggan, 1301 Riverplace


      15        Boulevard, Suit 1500.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  You heard the conditions


      17        that were read into the record by Mr. Kelly.  Do


      18        you agree with the conditions?


      19             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes, Mr. Chairman, we do.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      21             You can begin your comments.


      22             MR. DUGGAN:  Thank you.


      23             As Mr. Kelly pointed out, this is not in


      24        the historic district.  It's in the urban


      25        transition area of the Riverside Avondale Zoning




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Overlay, which is in the blue here on this map


       2        (indicating).


       3             This area is intentionally designed, as you


       4        might guess from its name, as an urban


       5        transition area for greater intensity and


       6        density and mixed use.  The PUD on the site --


       7        currently on the site was controversial and


       8        contentious.  It was essentially developed and


       9        approved without meaningful community input.


      10        The site is currently vacant.  The previous


      11        multifamily apartment building was torn down.


      12             We're proposing a three-story building,


      13        less than 45 feet tall, with a ground floor


      14        restaurant with outdoor seating and a rooftop


      15        open-air lounge and seating.  Those two will be


      16        connected, those two spaces, so there will not


      17        be an independent bar or club.  The rooftop area


      18        and the lounge up there will be tied to the


      19        hours of operation of the kitchen, so we think


      20        that will be consistent with the area.  It will


      21        not become out of character for the area.


      22             Unlike the existing PUD, we worked closely


      23        with the Planning Department, with RAP, with the


      24        surrounding businesses and property owners to


      25        fashion this PUD and its proposed uses.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I forgot to mention the second and third


       2        floors are proposed for office or residential


       3        uses.


       4             The Planning Department has determined that


       5        we need to provide 21 spaces to meet the parking


       6        demand that our uses -- those uses will


       7        generate.  We will provide those 21 spaces


       8        immediately contiguous to the site on Margaret


       9        Street and Oak Street.  We're going to provide


      10        all of the required tree canopies, landscaping


      11        trees that go with that parking demand.


      12             In addition, we're going to create, at a


      13        minimum, 11 additional spaces on Oak Street, on


      14        the east side of the right-of-way, to help meet


      15        the demand that does exist in the area and that


      16        our use could contribute to.


      17             My clients are local businessmen with


      18        extensive experience in the restaurant


      19        industry.  They operate Chew and Orsay


      20        currently.  They've been good neighbors in those


      21        neighborhoods.  They intend to develop and hold


      22        the property.  They do not intend to entitle it


      23        and flip it.  This project will enhance the


      24        property tax base.  As I mentioned, the property


      25        is currently vacant.  It will lead to net job




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        creation.  They're going to employ, the


       2        restaurant alone, more employees than they do


       3        currently at Chew downtown, which is slotted to


       4        move over there.  So it will be net job growth


       5        with the additional construction jobs and wage


       6        and tax benefits that will come with the


       7        project.


       8             Finally, we had unanimous approval at the


       9        Planning Commission.  And we, as you heard, have


      10        the support of the Planning Department.  And I


      11        will look forward to addressing the community's


      12        concerns on rebuttal.


      13             Thank you.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Duggan.


      15             Questions from the committee?


      16             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none,


      18        I've got a couple of questions for you.


      19             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes, sir.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  You mentioned the hours of


      21        operation are going to be -- or the hours of the


      22        kitchen are going to be tied to the use of the


      23        roof?


      24             MR. DUGGAN:  That's correct.


      25             The hours of operation on the rooftop,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        open-air lounge -- in other words, the outdoor


       2        sales and service of food in the lounge will be


       3        tied to the operation of the kitchen.  That's a


       4        State ABT requirement for a 4-COP/SRX


       5        restaurant.  So when the kitchen closes, the


       6        rooftop activities must close as well, no more


       7        food sales, no more alcohol sales.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  What about occupancy?


       9             MR. DUGGAN:  Well, I don't -- they're not


      10        going to tell people to get up and leave.  As


      11        any restaurant would, they're going to allow


      12        existing clients to finish their meals.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  And what are the hours of


      14        the -- the hours for the kitchen are not in the


      15        written description, correct?  You're relying on


      16        the State?


      17             MR. DUGGAN:  Correct.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  And what are those


      19        hours?


      20             MR. DUGGAN:  I would defer to Mr. DeVault,


      21        who is going to speak next.  He would be better


      22        positioned to answer that question.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Would you have any objection


      24        to including those into the written


      25        description?




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. DUGGAN:  That's not a call I have to --


       2        that I can make.  I would have to talk about


       3        that with my clients.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  And with regard to the


       5        parking, you talked about -- there's going to be


       6        21 spaces available?


       7             MR. DUGGAN:  Immediately contiguous to the


       8        site.  That's -- we're -- that's our parking


       9        number.  We will provide it immediately


      10        contiguous to the site, plus create new parking.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  And so there's going to be


      12        21 contiguous to the site and then the other 11


      13        you said were on Oak Street?


      14             MR. DUGGAN:  Well, we have frontage on Oak


      15        and Margaret.


      16             This shows it better (indicating), to


      17        answer your question.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, are you providing 21


      19        spaces total?


      20             MR. DUGGAN:  We're providing, at a minimum,


      21        21 here (indicating) on our Margaret Street


      22        frontage, and here on our Oak Street frontage.


      23        That's where the 21 -- this is our property


      24        right here (indicating).


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  What was the 11 you were




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        talking about?


       2             MR. DUGGAN:  Eleven is going to be across


       3        the street in the Oak Street -- east side of the


       4        Oak Street right-of-way.


       5             So we have Oak Street frontage.  We'll be


       6        providing parking spaces immediately adjacent to


       7        our property to meet our number and then


       8        additional, over and above that, on the east


       9        side of Oak Street.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is that in the written


      11        description?


      12             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  What section is that?


      14             MR. DUGGAN:  Give me a minute.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Any other questions


      16        from the committee?


      17             MR. BISHOP:  (Indicating.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Mr. Bishop, you


      19        are up as soon as Mr. Duggan answers my last


      20        question.


      21             MR. KELLY:  Section J on page 5 of 10.


      22             MR. DUGGAN:  That's correct.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  I see the 21 spaces.


      24        Is there a reference to the 11 spaces?


      25             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes.  It's in the middle of




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the paragraph.  "Through separate legislation,


       2        the applicants propose to fund the creation of a


       3        minimum of 11 new, unrestricted, noncontiguous,


       4        off-street, 90-degree parking spaces within the


       5        same block in the Oak Street right-of-way."


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  And the parking that's there


       7        now, is that parallel or perpendicular?


       8             MR. DUGGAN:  It's all parallel on Oak and


       9        next to our property.  Further up, this is


      10        angled (indicating) -- perpendicular, angled,


      11        but down in here it's all parallel, as you could


      12        see here on the --


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Are you converting some


      14        parallel to perpendicular?


      15             MR. DUGGAN:  That's correct.


      16             We've worked with the owners of 1661, the


      17        owners of this property, which is the surface


      18        parking lot, and the owners of the McIver


      19        Urological Clinic.  All of them have given


      20        written consent to the creation of 90-degree


      21        parking in front of their property.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Duggan.


      23             Mr. Bishop.


      24             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      25             Along those lines, what is the net parking




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        gain after you discount the existing parallel


       2        parking spaces?


       3             MR. DUGGAN:  I don't have that number right


       4        now, but I can figure that out with our


       5        engineers and provide it in rebuttal.


       6             MR. BISHOP:  That would be great.


       7             Thanks.


       8             MR. DUGGAN:  Okay.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Bishop.


      10             Any other questions?


      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none, my


      13        next speaker is Allan DeVault.


      14             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      15             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.


      16             My name is Allan DeVault.  I live at 1266


      17        Menna Street, 32205.


      18             As Wyman mentioned, we've had countless


      19        meetings with area neighbors, landowners,


      20        business owners, but today I want to talk about


      21        all the meetings we've had with RAP, all the


      22        requests we've listened to, and how we've


      23        addressed them, and as resulted in the PUD you


      24        see today.


      25             On May 5th, our first meeting of six with




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        RAP representatives, we talked with them to


       2        discuss the project initially.  They mentioned


       3        no more -- no less than three times that they'd


       4        like to see the building under 45 feet in


       5        height.  We are 42-and-a-half feet, but we could


       6        build to 60.


       7             We spent the next month designing this


       8        project within the overlay as it's written and


       9        in constant contact with RAP representatives as


      10        well as the City.


      11             On June 17th, three months ago, we met at


      12        the RAP house and they suggested that off-site


      13        parking for employees be provided and time


      14        limits on new parking to keep it rotating.


      15        We've been champions of those two causes ever


      16        since.


      17             On June 23rd, we had a meeting on site with


      18        the landscape architect, Fred Pope.  We talked


      19        about what trees could be kept and what could be


      20        taken away, and we agreed.


      21             On June 30th, our architect sent a revised


      22        site plan based on requests from the earlier


      23        meeting.  Immediately we got a request back to


      24        see what angled parking looked like.  Luckily,


      25        we -- the Planning Department decided that




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        perpendicular was the way to go because it


       2        provided more parking.


       3             On July 8th, via e-mail, a RAP


       4        representative requested that we do, on


       5        Margaret Street, a tree, six spaces, a tree,


       6        six spaces, and a tree.  We did it.  It's on the


       7        plan.


       8             On July 26th, after receiving, via e-mail,


       9        the initial design comments of the evening


      10        prior, we were ready for the meeting but was


      11        canceled.


      12             Later that day they requested a Word


      13        version of our PUD written description so they


      14        could red line it to their liking, and we sent


      15        it.


      16             On August 13th, after receiving RAP's


      17        summary of concerns and their rewrite of our


      18        zoning application, we came, answers in hand,


      19        for our meeting.  Among the things they asked


      20        for:  more trees, done; set up a dialogue with


      21        the RAP architect, done; further restrictions on


      22        signage, done; and bike racks, also done.


      23             On September 2nd, we met with those


      24        officials again to discuss their final concerns,


      25        design and setbacks.  I would say two of the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        most significant conditions added by the


       2        Planning Department as conditions to this


       3        written description address both of those


       4        concerns.


       5             What's next?


       6             On September 10th in an e-mail to the


       7        Planning Department they questioned the Planning


       8        Department and our definition of "height."  At


       9        the council member's request, we added the


      10        last-minute description to the written


      11        description to address those concerns.


      12             Last Thursday, September 16th, at Planning


      13        Commission, they requested four more


      14        conditions.  The Planning Commission voted


      15        unanimously to support the Planning Department's


      16        report and the condition they added, not any


      17        more, and we agree with that position.


      18             On Friday, the next day, September 17th,


      19        after six meetings and over four-and-a-half


      20        months, countless phone calls and e-mails, RAP


      21        now has a new position on the parking


      22        requirements, requirements that we have agreed


      23        upon for four-and-a-half months with the


      24        Planning Department and those representatives,


      25        but that's now changed.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I ask you, what's next?


       2             I hope that this committee will approve the


       3        Planning Department's application -- or the


       4        Planning Department's conditions, their very


       5        thorough report, the Planning Commission's


       6        unanimous recommendation, and I hope they will


       7        approve this zoning application, but City


       8        Council is still seven days away and I'll still


       9        ask myself, what's next?


      10             Thank you.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. DeVault.


      12             The question I asked Mr. Duggan earlier,


      13        about the State hours with regard to the --


      14             MR. DeVAULT:  The ABT requires, as you


      15        correctly pointed out, that the kitchen stay


      16        open as long as you serve food and any


      17        beverages.  They do not specifically state what


      18        time the restaurant should open or close because


      19        that's open -- you know, left up to the


      20        businesses itself.


      21             As we currently plan to see it -- our


      22        current restaurants, Orsay and Chew, close


      23        between 9:30 and 11 o'clock during the week and


      24        then midnight on the weekends, and we would


      25        suggest and suppose that this business will




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        follow those similar hours.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  So the -- let me get this


       3        straight.  If I understand you correctly, the


       4        State doesn't mandate any specific hours?


       5             MR. DeVAULT:  No.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  You could stay open till


       7        3 o'clock in the morning?  If the kitchen was


       8        open, you could --


       9             MR. DeVAULT:  You cannot stay open past


      10        2:00, as area businesses do, like O'Brothers and


      11        some of the others in the Five Points area.  You


      12        could if you would like to, but that's not


      13        currently our plan.  Based on the current


      14        businesses that we run, it doesn't really fit


      15        into that format.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm really just more


      17        concerned about what the State -- it sounds like


      18        you're relying on the State to control your


      19        kitchen hours, which will, in turn, control your


      20        rooftop activity.  So --


      21             MR. DeVAULT:  I think the --


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Does the State allow you


      23        to -- in any way, does the State allow you to


      24        open -- to keep the kitchen open past 2:00 in


      25        the morning?




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. DeVAULT:  No.  You cannot serve


       2        beverages past -- full bar, wine or beer or


       3        liquor past 2 o'clock, so -- we would not keep


       4        the kitchen open past that anyway.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Does the State allow you to


       6        keep the kitchen open longer than 2 two a.m.,


       7        yes or no?


       8             MR. DeVAULT:  The kitchen and food, yes.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  If the State allows


      10        you to keep the kitchen open past 2 a.m., I


      11        assume, based on what we heard earlier, you


      12        would still allow people to occupy the roof


      13        deck; is that correct?  Because you're linking


      14        that to the kitchen hours, correct?


      15             MR. DeVAULT:  Yes.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  And my question to


      17        Mr. Duggan, which he couldn't answer -- I'll ask


      18        you, then -- is, would you be willing to put


      19        into the written description some regulation on


      20        the hours?


      21             I hear you saying one thing, but I hear


      22        Mr. Duggan saying he wants to rely on the State,


      23        and the State doesn't care how late you keep the


      24        kitchen open, which, in turn, allows people to


      25        go to the roof.  So are you willing to address




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that matter in the written description, hours of


       2        operation?


       3             MR. DeVAULT:  It would certainly be


       4        something we'd be happy to talk to the committee


       5        about.  I don't know any other businesses that


       6        is -- that are regulated by similar regulations,


       7        but we would be happy to certainly guarantee we


       8        would close at 2:00 at the latest.  But, beyond


       9        that, it is more based on the neighborhood and


      10        the needs of the customers.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      12             Any other questions from the committee?


      13             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you,


      15        Mr. DeVault.


      16             Is there anyone else from the audience that


      17        would care to address the committee in support


      18        of the application?


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no one,


      21        the remaining cards are marked in opposition,


      22        and we will start with Sally -- is it Robson?


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Inaudible.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm sorry.  You did check


      25        that box.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Brooks Andrews, followed by Cindy Congelio,


       2        followed by Terry Hallihan.


       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman,


       5        City Council, planning board.


       6             My name is Brooks Andrews.  I live at 2005


       7        Herschel, so I'm really right catercorner from


       8        the property in -- in question here.


       9             First of all, I -- I applaud the developers


      10        and the -- and the owners of the prospective


      11        restaurant, Orsay and Chew.  This is going to be


      12        a great project in a lot of ways.  I think it's


      13        going to add to the -- the vibrancy of the


      14        neighborhood.  And living just catercorner


      15        there, I'll look out my front porch and see


      16        this -- this new development.


      17             My hope is that it is, in fact, going to


      18        meet all the guidelines and restrictions and


      19        design characteristics that Mr. Kelly spoke


      20        about.  I think that that's really critical to


      21        the -- to the neighborhood.


      22             My hope is that all of you have kind of


      23        visited Five Points and driven around the area


      24        or walked around the area, and you will see that


      25        while there is a mixture of architecture, there




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        is some fantastic old architecture, one of which


       2        I live in, that was built in 1915, restored


       3        extremely well, and I would ask that this


       4        council consider very, very carefully the design


       5        characteristics of the building in -- in


       6        question here because I think we have one


       7        opportunity to do it right.


       8             If you drive around Jacksonville, if you


       9        drive out Atlantic Boulevard or Beach Boulevard,


      10        you can see that this city, unfortunately,


      11        didn't pay very close attention to zoning


      12        over -- over the last several decades, so this


      13        is a great opportunity for you to fix something


      14        and make sure that it's done right from the


      15        get-go.


      16             The other comment I'd like to make is


      17        about -- is about parking.  Parking in the


      18        neighborhood is already stressed right now.


      19        This is an opportunity for you to really


      20        question hard whether there's going to be


      21        sufficient parking because I can tell you right


      22        now that parking on, particularly weekends and


      23        nights, when all the restaurants are full that


      24        are there right now -- I'm getting close I can


      25        see -- parking is very, very dense, and so the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        additional parking required for this restaurant


       2        and the residents in this new building need to


       3        be taken into consideration.


       4             So thank you very much.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Andrews.


       6             Any questions from the committee?


       7             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Our next speaker


       9        is Cindy Congelio.


      10             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      11             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm Cindy Congelio.  I


      12        live at 1849 Seminole Road.  And I own the


      13        building that Brooks lives in, across the


      14        street, catercorner from this new development.


      15             And I want to say, we're not opposed to


      16        this development at all.  Orsay and Chew have a


      17        great reputation for running good


      18        establishments, but we do have some concerns


      19        with this new development.


      20             The mixed-use neighborhood of Five Points,


      21        the diversity of people and opportunities are


      22        not found in other types of communities.  A


      23        compromise has to occur so we can all live and


      24        work together productively.


      25             The concerns with the parking Brooks




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        brought up and the design he brought up and I


       2        think will also be brought up again with RAP.


       3             One concern I want to bring up is noise


       4        because I've had experience with noise in that


       5        area with my tenants having difficulty even


       6        getting a good night's sleep because of what has


       7        already been approved without conditions in the


       8        neighborhood.  And I know we can't go back, but


       9        going forward, I would like to ask that there


      10        are some time constraints put on the outdoor


      11        music and bringing up the -- the fact that


      12        people might be sitting out till 2 o'clock in


      13        the morning enjoying themselves, which I don't


      14        have anything against, but having it be across


      15        from people that are trying to get a good


      16        night's rest, we'd like to consider that -- if


      17        you -- we could have some time guidelines for


      18        that, especially with the music, which I -- that


      19        particularly has been an issue difficult for


      20        code enforcement because the City does not have


      21        people that can go out at night and tell -- to


      22        read the decibels and say that's exceeding code,


      23        and the police are doing other things that are


      24        more pressing.


      25             One thing we've considered, if -- if you




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        might consider, at least for the music at this


       2        point, and -- and address the -- the food and


       3        beverage sales among the other committee


       4        members, 10 o'clock to cut off the music during


       5        the week, 12 a.m. on the weekends, and that


       6        way -- that seems a little bit reasonable to --


       7        you know, at least the amplified noise or the


       8        music, that the decibels can really go up or


       9        down -- or up more so than the -- than a voice,


      10        you might consider that.  So 10 o'clock during


      11        the week and 12:00 on the weekends, to include


      12        that in the PUD towards the outdoor


      13        entertainment.


      14             Thank you.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Congelio.


      16             Any questions from the committee?


      17             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Reingold, are you


      19        keeping track of the time?


      20             MR. REINGOLD:  Absolutely, sir.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Great.  Just making sure.  I


      22        don't want you to tell me when it's all over


      23        that you forgot.


      24             All right.  Mr. Hallihan, and that -- will


      25        be followed by Carmen Godwin, followed by Steve




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Congro, followed by Kay Ehas.


       2             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is --


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm sorry.  Ms. Hallihan.  I


       5        apologize.


       6             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That's okay.


       7             My name is Frances Theresa -- I go by


       8        Terry -- Hallihan, and I live at 2358 Riverside


       9        Avenue.


      10             I'm here to address specifically three


      11        issues.  The first issue you've now heard, and


      12        that is with regard to the music.


      13             If that music is on the third floor of this


      14        building during outdoor dining, that is going to


      15        reverberate throughout the entire neighborhood,


      16        so I implore you to consider adding restrictions


      17        so that any music on the third floor would be


      18        limited to 10 o'clock, Monday through Thursday,


      19        and no later than midnight on Saturday and


      20        Sunday -- I mean, excuse me, Friday and


      21        Saturday.  So it would be 10 o'clock on Sunday


      22        through Thursday for the hours, and then on


      23        Saturday -- Friday night and Saturday night it


      24        would be midnight.  So that's the first point.


      25             The second point I'd like to make is that




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the additional parking -- if you look at the


       2        design of the street where this building is


       3        going to be located and you look at the parking,


       4        that's on the east side of Oak Street or on the


       5        west -- east side of Oak Street or the parking


       6        is on the west side of Oak Street.  That's all


       7        been parallel parking.  And, as you discussed,


       8        it's been switched.  The proposal includes


       9        perpendicular parking.


      10             We currently have several elderly high-rise


      11        apartments that are down -- yes, that are going


      12        in this direction (indicating) --


      13             Back off?


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  You need to go back to the


      15        microphone.


      16             MS. HALLIHAN:  Go back to the microphone.


      17        Okay.


      18             There are several elderly residents,


      19        high-rise apartments that are in that area, and


      20        those residents use Oak Street in order to


      21        bypass the blinking light at Five Points.


      22             It's already difficult at the intersection


      23        of Margaret and Oak when you're coming down


      24        south on Oak Street to then see the traffic


      25        coming east and west or north and south --




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        excuse me -- north and south on Margaret.


       2             I'm just saying, when you're adding


       3        perpendicular parking on both of those sides and


       4        then those people traversing that, you need to


       5        drive this area and look at what impact it's


       6        going to have on that corner when you add


       7        perpendicular spaces on both sides of


       8        Oak Street.


       9             And the last thing is we already have


      10        enough -- the business here will be great.  I


      11        implore them to open Chew there, but the issue


      12        is the existing parking nightmare that already


      13        exists on Margaret and Oak in the Five Points


      14        area as a result of the other restaurants that


      15        are there, and we ought to have some provision


      16        that requires them to have off-site parking in


      17        another location for both their staff and their


      18        patrons.


      19             Thank you very much.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Hallihan.


      21             Any questions from the committee?


      22             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none,


      24        Carmen Godwin.


      25             (Audience member approaches the podium.)




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.


       2             Carmen Godwin, 2623 Herschel Street.


       3             I'm here on behalf of Riverside Avondale


       4        Preservation.  We dropped off a packet and a


       5        letter from -- on behalf of our board.  Did


       6        everybody get a copy of that today?  Does


       7        anybody need a copy?  I have, like, one or two


       8        available.


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             MS. GODWIN:  Does that mean yes or no?


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  (Shakes head.)


      12             MS. GODWIN:  Essentially, RAP has been


      13        negotiating development in our neighborhood for


      14        a very long time.  We are opposed to this PUD


      15        unless certain other conditions are approved.


      16        We'll get to those conditions, but first I


      17        wanted to ensure you that our community is


      18        demanding that RAP guide smart development.


      19             Page 2 of our packet includes actual


      20        feedback from months of intensive community


      21        workshops during the Riverside Avondale Zoning


      22        Overlay.  You can see that our community values


      23        its small, pedestrian scale and that two areas


      24        of major concern were related to development.


      25             "Height and scale of new development is too




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        large and adequate amounts of parking are not


       2        being provided."


       3             Page 3 includes an actual map created


       4        during the overlay workshop.  The larger purple


       5        circles were areas of concern, and this PUD is


       6        within one of those areas, directly across the


       7        street from the residential character area.


       8             The overlay's guiding principle was to


       9        encourage responsible growth, meaning that new


      10        development should maintain appropriate scale,


      11        height, and density.


      12             Keep in mind that this particular lot had a


      13        two-story home on it, which was less than 4,000


      14        square feet, and that's on page 7.


      15             The existing PUD provides eight on-site


      16        parking spaces for eight residential units and


      17        it had 1,100 square feet of retail space, and


      18        one argument for approving that PUD was that it


      19        was not a restaurant, which is a high parking


      20        intensive use.


      21             The proposed PUD is 20,000 square feet,


      22        almost 20,000, and includes restaurant, office,


      23        and residential.


      24             We had an attachment stapled that -- the


      25        communication of our concerns were sent to the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        developers on August 12th with a red-line


       2        version of our PUD, which was not offered to us


       3        in advance; however, slide 9 includes a summary


       4        of those concerns.  They include scale and mass,


       5        that other buildings on this block face are one


       6        and two stories.


       7             Height.  The written description defines


       8        "height" differently than the overlay and the


       9        regular zoning code.


      10             Parking.  The overlay requirement for


      11        on-site parking is not being met, so we asked


      12        for dedicated off-site parking for residential


      13        and to exclude medical.


      14             Setbacks.  Zero setbacks are proposed.


      15        Other buildings in the area are set back from


      16        the right-of-way and offer greenspace, and those


      17        built to the lot line are only one-story


      18        buildings.


      19             This communication was one of many that was


      20        shared with the developers and had a consistent


      21        message through that process in hopes that we


      22        could spark the spirit of negotiation that was


      23        part of the previous developments such as Publix


      24        and 1661.


      25             Thank you.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Godwin.


       2             Any questions from the committee?


       3             MR. BISHOP:  Yes.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Bishop.


       5             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       6             Ms. Godwin, you mentioned something that


       7        has been mentioned a couple of times here, about


       8        height.  I guess in my simple way height is


       9        height.  It's either X height or it's Y height,


      10        and you measure it from the ground to the top.


      11             What can you tell me about how -- you said


      12        this -- this written description defines


      13        "height" differently than the overlay zoning


      14        does.  It's my understanding that there's a


      15        45-foot height limitation.  So how are they


      16        different?


      17             MS. GODWIN:  Originally, the -- in the PUD,


      18        you had described "height" as including -- it's


      19        45 feet, but being allowed to go over 45 feet


      20        for the rooftop -- extra structures on the


      21        rooftop.


      22             Now, in the overlay, it does not include --


      23        it only includes the spires, belfries, or


      24        cupolas and chimneys, but they included the


      25        rooftop terrace area and the external stairwell




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        as being included, as being able to go over


       2        45 feet.  And there's no limit to how high that


       3        goes.  I mean, it could go up 60 feet.


       4             And the other thing is that -- is the


       5        overlay specifically says that it can't be


       6        visible from the right-of-way, and they took


       7        that out of the PUD.


       8             So the legislation that's being submitted


       9        is redefining what can go over 45 feet on the


      10        rooftop and be visible from the street.


      11             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  Follow-up question,


      12        Mr. Kelly.  What's the proposed height that's


      13        included in the PUD for this structure?


      14             MR. KELLY:  The PUD requests 45 feet in the


      15        written description, I believe.  They've


      16        actually indicated it's 42-and-a-half feet or so


      17        to the top of the parapet.


      18             MR. BISHOP:  What's the top -- what's the


      19        height to the top of the stairwell?


      20             MR. KELLY:  The urban transition area


      21        allows for 60 feet; however, the stairwell and


      22        those other rooftop appurtenances would not be


      23        included in the definition of "height."


      24             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  So Ms. Godwin is


      25        correct that they could be unlimited in height?




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. KELLY:  They could be up to 60 feet in


       2        height; however, that basically resets a parking


       3        requirement.


       4             MR. BISHOP:  So in order to not reset a


       5        parking requirement, what is the upset limit


       6        that they could build to with these other


       7        appurtenances?


       8             MR. KELLY:  It's 45 feet as measured to the


       9        top of the parapet.


      10             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  So the stairwell and


      11        the elevator tower and those sorts of things


      12        just simply don't come into the equation at


      13        all?


      14             MR. KELLY:  That's correct.


      15             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  Thank you.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Bishop.


      17             Any other questions for Ms. Godwin?


      18             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Godwin, I had a


      20        question.


      21             MS. GODWIN:  Yes, sir.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. DeVault kind of went


      23        through a time line of events --


      24             MS. GODWIN:  Yes.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- meeting with, I guess,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        RAP.  What is your position with RAP?


       2             MS. GODWIN:  We met for the first time with


       3        them in June, and they came to us saying they


       4        were thinking about buying the property.  We sat


       5        at a table with the developers and they shared


       6        what they called some conceptual drawings.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  I don't really want to


       8        rehash --


       9             MS. GODWIN:  Okay.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- the time line, but what


      11        was your position with RAP?  You work for RAP?


      12             MS. GODWIN:  I'm executive director.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Executive director?


      14             MS. GODWIN:  Yes.  And so I was in three of


      15        the meetings that they discussed, and we were


      16        consistent in our message during that whole


      17        time.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, it sounded like there


      19        were a lot more than three meetings.


      20             MS. GODWIN:  There was a meeting --


      21        actually, I was in four.


      22             There was one meeting that I didn't attend,


      23        which was the landscape architect meeting them


      24        on site about the trees.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. GODWIN:  There's much more to the story


       2        than Mr. DeVault actually told you today,


       3        so . . .


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you very much.


       5             We may get into that, then, in a minute.


       6             MS. GODWIN:  All right.  Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Our next speaker is Steve --


       8        is it Congro, with an "r" in it?


       9             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Congro.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm sorry.  Steve Congro,


      11        and then our final speaker will be Kay Ehas.


      12             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Chair.


      14             Steve Congro, 2577 Forbes Street, 32204.


      15             Going off that same handout, one of the


      16        things that we were very consistent about as


      17        well had to do with the setback, like Carmen


      18        mentioned.  The setback of this building is --


      19        the sidewalk of this building is eight feet with


      20        a zero setback after that, which is


      21        uncharacteristic with any of the other buildings


      22        in the area.  All of the other buildings that


      23        come up to the sidewalk are one-story


      24        buildings.  Everything over one story, including


      25        1661 next door, sits back quite a bit more from




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that.  1661 has 23 feet of greenspace from the


       2        sidewalk to the building.


       3             With regard to parking, the overlay is


       4        clear on 75 percent reduction of parking for the


       5        building under 45 feet of height, which would


       6        allow 19 spaces.  However, one of the things to


       7        point out is that the building has four floors


       8        of uses, not three.  So the building -- with the


       9        building having four floors of uses, in the end,


      10        all the spaces that are going to be added is


      11        one.  There are currently 20 on-street parking


      12        spaces abutting the site.  They propose 21.  So


      13        we have a net gain of one.


      14             They also propose adding 11 more spaces


      15        across Oak Street; however, the exact word in


      16        the PUD was "proposed."  I don't read that as


      17        being required.  So, in the end, we're only


      18        adding one space.


      19             Furthermore, there are no spaces being


      20        added for any of the residential or office uses


      21        on the second or third floors.


      22             At this point, I think RAP would be


      23        interested in seeing at least a written


      24        agreement with somebody else for those spaces,


      25        such as 1661 or, you know, right across the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        street that appears to have quite a bit of extra


       2        parking.  However, at this point, none of that


       3        has been met.


       4             Finally, if you -- the overlay requires


       5        75 -- either 75 percent reduction in the parking


       6        requirements.  However, it also states that


       7        those parking requirements need to be met on


       8        site, which they're not.  They're -- at this


       9        point, they're not being met.  They're being met


      10        with existing spaces by, again, adding one space


      11        and, quote, proposing adding 11 more spaces


      12        across the street.


      13             Anybody that takes a drive through that


      14        area at any point of the day, day or night, can


      15        tell that is a very high-demand area for


      16        parking.  By adding one space for a -- for four


      17        floors of use, I don't believe that we're going


      18        to have sufficient parking in the area.


      19             Thank you for your time.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      21             Any questions for Mr. Congro?


      22             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Our last speaker is


      24        Kay Ehas.


      25             (Audience member approaches the podium.)




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Kay Ehas, 2322 Dellwood


       2        Avenue.  I'm chair of Riverside Avondale


       3        Preservation.


       4             Carmen and Steve talked about kind of the


       5        background of the project so that you understand


       6        our concerns because I'm going to talk about the


       7        additional things we'd like to see, and I do


       8        want to reiterate that we have consistently,


       9        with every meeting, explained to the developers


      10        all the things we wanted to see changed,


      11        including what I'm about to tell you.  So we


      12        have been very consistent.  We did not change


      13        our message in any one of those meetings.  We've


      14        actually backed off on what we've requested.


      15             Because this project is going to be such a


      16        high-intensive parking use and it's not really


      17        providing the required parking -- because


      18        remember, that 75 percent reduction, you get


      19        that if you -- if you provide the parking on


      20        site.  They are not doing that, which means they


      21        should be providing 74 spaces.  That's how you


      22        get that credit for the on-street parking around


      23        the parcel.


      24             So we would like to prohibit medical uses,


      25        because they are also very parking intensive.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        And adding both restaurant and medical is just


       2        going to exacerbate it even more than it already


       3        will be, so we just would like that eliminated.


       4             Again, we would like to limit the hours of


       5        live music so the residents can enjoy the


       6        quality of life.


       7             And then the mass and scale of this


       8        building has always been very important to us.


       9        We think it's just too big.  However, we're not


      10        arguing that it can't be 45 feet.  That is --


      11        that's what the overlay says, it's what they're


      12        allowed.  What we're asking for is that the


      13        building -- the third of the building, right


      14        next to Mossfire, be set back four feet to line


      15        up with Mossfire so that it doesn't look like


      16        this huge mass kind of over that building.


      17             I mean, sitting -- sitting right on your


      18        site makes a big difference in terms of making


      19        it a pedestrian-friendly environment, so we


      20        would like to see that part of the building set


      21        back four feet, in line with Mossfire; and we'd


      22        like the rest of the building to meet the


      23        eight-foot sidewalk requirement; set the


      24        building back two feet instead of moving the


      25        sidewalk out into the street.  Those are the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        things we're asking for.  We believe at the end


       2        of the day they are so incredibly reasonable.


       3             Thank you very much.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Ehas.


       5             Any questions from the committee?


       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Ehas, the -- you


       8        mentioned Mossfire.  That's where on the site


       9        plan?  I'm sorry, I didn't bring my handout that


      10        you delivered to me.


      11             MS. EHAS:  This building is on the corner


      12        of Margaret and Oak Street, and it sits right --


      13        it would sit right next to Mossfire on Margaret


      14        Street.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  And how far off the street


      16        is Mossfire?


      17             MS. EHAS:  It's four feet -- it sets [sic]


      18        back four feet from the sidewalk.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  And how do the other


      20        buildings, I guess --


      21             MS. EHAS:  The buildings on that --


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  This direction


      23        (indicating)?


      24             MS. EHAS:  Yeah.


      25             The buildings on that block that are taller




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        than one story sit back from the sidewalk.  The


       2        ones further up to Lomax are one story and they


       3        sit right up to the sidewalk.  And a one-story


       4        building is still pedestrian friendly, which is


       5        why that works.  Once you get taller and you've


       6        got a mass going up, it just makes it not so


       7        friendly.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you very


       9        much.


      10             Anyone else care to address the committee


      11        in opposition?


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no one,


      14        Mr. Reingold, the official timekeeper, what did


      15        you come up with as time -- total time used by


      16        the opposition?


      17             MR. REINGOLD:  The opposition used


      18        roughly -- and I'm serious about this.  I


      19        literally came up with 15 minutes.  Wyman Duggan


      20        and the applicant used six minutes and


      21        17 seconds; therefore, if I can do my math


      22        correctly, they would have eight minutes and


      23        43 seconds for rebuttal.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Is that -- did you do


      25        your math correctly?  You went too quick for me.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REINGOLD:  I'm sorry, I tried to keep


       2        up.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Joost.


       4             MR. JOOST:  That's correct.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  He's got his calculator


       6        usually with him all the time, so he confirms


       7        that the math is correct.


       8             (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Mr. Duggan, how


      10        do you want to handle that?  Do you want to take


      11        the whole time?  Do you want to yield some of


      12        that time to the other speaker?


      13             MR. DUGGAN:  It's all on me.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We're going to set


      15        the clock for eight minutes and 43 seconds.


      16             You may begin.


      17             MR. DUGGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      18             I want to begin by submitting into the


      19        record two e-mails.  You've already gotten


      20        these, but -- at least you were copied on them.


      21        I want to put them in the record.  They're from


      22        the owner of Edge City in old Five Points, if


      23        you will, and then an employee -- excuse me --


      24        an individual who works in the area.  They're in


      25        support of our project.  I just want to put




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        those in the record.


       2             Just as kind of background, I want to point


       3        out that in 2006, in connection with the


       4        existing PUD on the property, the Planning


       5        Department did a parking study of the area and


       6        showed that there are 850 spaces available in


       7        the parking area, 385 of those are


       8        unrestricted.


       9             And, at that time, the Planning Department


      10        determined there was adequate -- sufficient


      11        parking to meet the demand created by the


      12        existing PUD on the site.


      13             Going through these comments,


      14        Mr. Andrews -- Brooks Andrews, again, he resides


      15        inside the historical district, we do not.


      16        Presumably, as a resident there, he got notice


      17        of all the hearings.  To my knowledge, at least


      18        as far as the Planning Department has told me,


      19        they have not received any contact from any


      20        residents in the area, inside or outside the


      21        historic district, so this is the first time --


      22        I pointed that fact out at Planning Commission,


      23        that no residents have contacted Mr. Corrigan's


      24        office, according to his council aide and my


      25        public records request.  Nobody contacted the




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Planning Department.  I will leave it up to you


       2        to speculate as to whether his attendance here


       3        tonight was engendered by a contact from RAP or


       4        not.


       5             As to the mass and scale and design of the


       6        project, there's a condition in the staff report


       7        that will address that.  There are design


       8        guidelines in the overlay that must be complied


       9        with, in addition, and over and above that.  The


      10        Planning Department has conditioned our approval


      11        on complying with those guidelines.  We're not


      12        seeking to deviate from that.  So that


      13        protection is in place.


      14             In terms of the parking -- this really


      15        applies to several of the comments.  The parking


      16        problems that exist here today we did not


      17        create, and you cannot condition our approval on


      18        fixing them, just as you cannot, in the larger


      19        concurrency context, hold somebody up because


      20        there's a backlogged facility.


      21             I will tell you that the Mossfire and


      22        O'Brothers restaurants in the same block, up the


      23        street from us, benefit from administrative


      24        deviations that have been granted in the past


      25        that reduce their required parking demand from




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        seventy-one spaces to zero.  If there's a


       2        parking problem in the area, we did not create


       3        it.


       4             We have been told by the Planning


       5        Department that our parking demand, under the


       6        terms of the overlay, is 21 spaces that we have


       7        to provide.  We're providing parking to meet the


       8        effects of our development.


       9             I would say in terms of Ms. Congelio's


      10        comments about a compromise, we have


      11        compromised.  There are already several facets


      12        of the PUD that reflect compromise with the


      13        concerns expressed by RAP.  You will see in the


      14        list of uses, there's a whole list of prohibited


      15        uses, that was at RAP's request, and we put that


      16        in there at that request.


      17             So there -- there has been compromise all


      18        along.  You haven't heard about it necessarily,


      19        but I don't want you to get the false impression


      20        that it hasn't happened.


      21             Outdoor activity, sales and service can


      22        occur until 2 a.m. right now at O'Brothers and


      23        Mossfire.  Those establishments are subject to


      24        the ordinance, as we will be.


      25             In terms of Terry's comments -- I'm sorry,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        I didn't write her last name down -- and her


       2        concerns about the elderly, we're going to be


       3        actually improving this intersection here at Oak


       4        and Margaret to create a crosswalk that does not


       5        now exist to assist people in safely crossing


       6        the street there.


       7             In terms of Ms. Godwin's comments, we did


       8        not receive a copy of their board packet, so I'm


       9        not prepared to respond point by point to what


      10        they say.


      11             Again, the comments as to mass and scale,


      12        the Planning Department ensured that we comply


      13        with those issues.


      14             As to the parking, though, I will point out


      15        that when -- on August 12th, when RAP provided


      16        us with their summary of primary points of


      17        concern, under parking, they say that, "We


      18        recognize that the size and shape of the lot is


      19        unique, so we're willing to support a deviation


      20        from the on site-parking requirements."


      21             I'd like to submit this into the record as


      22        well.


      23             (Tenders document.)


      24             Setbacks to zero feet are allowed under the


      25        urban transition area of the zoning overlay.  We




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        can build right up to the right-of-way line.


       2        That is allowed.


       3             We are providing an eight-foot setback.


       4        We're providing it in the right-of-way.  That is


       5        allowed.


       6             The medical office use issue, which


       7        Ms. Ehas also raised, in addition to Ms. Godwin,


       8        I would remind everybody that this entire area


       9        used to consist, to a great degree, of medical


      10        office uses when Riverside Hospital was in use


      11        on the site of what is now the Riverside


      12        Publix.  1661 was developed on the site of a


      13        medical office building.


      14             This is a medical office building


      15        (indicating).  This whole building is medical


      16        office uses.  This is a medical office use.  We


      17        are not introducing a use to the neighborhood


      18        that does not already exist.  It has


      19        historically existed.


      20             Medical office uses are a hot-button issue


      21        for RAP and within the historic district.  I


      22        might concede that that's a legitimate concern.


      23        This is the urban transition area.  It is, by


      24        definition, designed for greater intensity and


      25        density.  Medical office uses are not going to




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        create some new problem that can't be adequately


       2        handled.  Those types of uses happen throughout


       3        the day.  They're not peak-hour uses.


       4             In terms of the setback issue of Mossfire,


       5        Mossfire may be set back four feet at some


       6        point, but I will remind you, for those of you


       7        who  don't know or may have forgotten, the front


       8        step -- the front stoop of Mossfire, if you


       9        will, actually completely crosses and blocks the


      10        existing sidewalk and goes out in -- reaches


      11        right out into the existing perpendicular


      12        parking.  So I think it's misleading to say


      13        Mossfire is set back four feet.  By the way,


      14        Mossfire is a two-story building, not a


      15        one-story building.


      16             In terms of the parking on Oak Street that


      17        exists there now, we are not adding just one


      18        space.  City code says that parallel parking


      19        spaces are 22 feet long.


      20             In terms of getting back to Mr. Bishop's


      21        question, we would estimate that approximately


      22        six parallel parking spaces exist now on our


      23        frontage on the Oak Street side.  So it's not


      24        the case, as Mr. Congro said, that we're only


      25        adding one new space on that frontage because




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        there -- by code, approximately six there --


       2        there are only six there now.


       3             In terms of providing off-street, dedicated


       4        parking for our office users or our resident


       5        users, that's a risk that we -- that my clients


       6        will have to take.  The market may tell them,


       7        well, your tenants and your residents demand


       8        dedicated off-street parking, but they're


       9        willing to assume the risk that it doesn't.


      10             They're willing to assume the risk that


      11        they can find tenants and residents who are


      12        willing to reside or have their office in that


      13        building without a dedicated off-street parking


      14        space.  That risk is properly placed upon them.


      15             Ms. Ehas talked about mass and scale.


      16        Again, that's not really an issue properly, in


      17        my opinion, for this committee to consider.


      18        They're already -- the guidelines are already in


      19        the overlay.  The Planning Department has been


      20        charged with enforcing them.  They've put a


      21        condition on us.  We're going to comply with


      22        it.  It's not really this committee's purview to


      23        go back and rewrite those conditions or analyze


      24        those conditions.  I submit to you that that's


      25        not appropriately an issue for us to spend time




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        on tonight when the Planning Department has


       2        already ensured that we're going to have to


       3        comply with those conditions.


       4             Other PUDs in the area allow zero-foot


       5        setbacks with a buffer in the right-of-way.


       6             And, finally, again, just to reiterate, in


       7        closing, this project does not -- is not within


       8        the historic district.  Most of the folks here


       9        tonight are associated with RAP.  I understand


      10        that they care about the neighborhood.  That's


      11        why we worked with them for a minimum of five


      12        meetings that Ms. Godwin agreed to or


      13        acknowledged, but at the end of the day it's not


      14        in the historic district.


      15             The comprehensive plan incentivizes and


      16        demands urban infill.  If we're serious about


      17        urban infill, it's going to mean a little more


      18        intensity and density than we're used to.  This


      19        is not a suburban setting.  You're not going to


      20        be able to pull right up in front and get out of


      21        your car.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Duggan.


      23             Question.  You've cited two locations or


      24        two establishments that have administrative


      25        deviations for zero parking.  You said Mossfire,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        and who was the other one?


       2             MR. DUGGAN:  It's now known as O'Brothers.


       3        It's up here (indicating).


       4             This is Mossfire (indicating).  This is a


       5        dentist office.  This is O'Brothers.  We're


       6        right here.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Did you ever figure out how


       8        many parking spaces were on the street?


       9             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes.  At a 22-foot-wide


      10        parallel parking space, we are creating a net


      11        gain of four spaces on -- immediately adjacent


      12        to our property on the Oak Street frontage,


      13        then, of course, we're creating the new --


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Let me try to ask


      15        that in a different way.


      16             How many available on-street parking spaces


      17        are there that are contiguous to the property in


      18        question?  You know, if we went over there right


      19        now and counted them, how many would there be?


      20             MR. DUGGAN:  Well, on the Oak Street


      21        frontage there's no striping.  The code is


      22        22 spaces [sic] for a parallel parking space.


      23        So given the frontage of our property, at most


      24        there would be six parallel spaces.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  There could be, but




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        they're not.


       2             MR. DUGGAN:  Well, they're not striped,


       3        right.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       5             MR. DUGGAN:  Okay.  So then you've got


       6        the -- you've got to maintain the sight triangle


       7        down here (indicating), so you can't park


       8        right -- you know.


       9             This is currently paved (indicating) but


      10        unstriped.  Code requires nine-foot-wide parking


      11        stalls for a perpendicular parking space, but


      12        I -- I don't know what that number is today --


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      14             MR. DUGGAN:  -- if it were striped.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  And I asked you


      16        earlier about the 11 -- you said the 11


      17        additional parking spaces -- I found the section


      18        in the -- that you pointed out in the written


      19        description, or somebody pointed out, but it


      20        says -- and I think one speaker alluded to


      21        this.  It says, "The applicants propose to fund


      22        the creation of a minimum of 11 new,


      23        unrestricted, noncontiguous, off-street" -- I'm


      24        sorry.  Let me back up a little bit.  "Through


      25        separate legislation, the applicants propose to




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        fund the creation of a minimum 11 new,


       2        unrestricted, noncontiguous, off-street,


       3        90-degree parking spaces," et cetera,


       4        et cetera.  What legislation is that?


       5             MR. DUGGAN:  It will be -- it's to be


       6        introduced.  In order to create perpendicular


       7        parking in City right-of-way, the City must


       8        approve that through legislation.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  What happens if we approve


      10        the PUD and the legislation doesn't get


      11        introduced, or worse, it doesn't get approved,


      12        where does that leave you?


      13             MR. DUGGAN:  Well, it leaves us in a


      14        position where we provide the 21 spaces that the


      15        Planning Department said we had to provide


      16        immediately contiguous to the site.


      17             MR. KELLY:  If I may, that legislation has


      18        already been approved, I believe.  I was trying


      19        to find the bill back in 2001, but perpendicular


      20        parking was permitted in the Five Points area,


      21        the Shoppes at Avondale, San Marco Square.


      22             There were probably four or five locations


      23        that were all approved under one ordinance and


      24        there was an amendment to that that actually


      25        included the Shoppes of Avondale later, but all




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of that perpendicular on-street parking is


       2        already allowed, based on the -- the boundaries


       3        described in the legislation.  I believe it's


       4        2003 or '05 that dealt with that, but that is


       5        already codified.


       6             (Mr. Holt enters the proceedings.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Well, Mr. Kelly, that


       8        begs the question, then, in the written


       9        description, which you reviewed, why would the


      10        word "proposed" be in there?  I'm a little


      11        confused about this.


      12             MR. KELLY:  I believe it was probably a


      13        misunderstanding at the time.  The applicant may


      14        not have been aware that this other legislation


      15        existed already, but for any new parking --


      16        on-street parking that is proposed that's not


      17        inclusive of these areas, it would be required


      18        to go through new legislation.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Reingold.


      20             MR. REINGOLD:  Through the Chair to


      21        Mr. Kelly.  Mr. Kelly, I have ordinance


      22        2006-1213 in front of me.  It's permitting


      23        angled parking on Margaret Street from Post


      24        Street to Riverside.  Is that the ordinance


      25        you're referring to or is there another




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        ordinance out there that you're referring to?


       2             MR. KELLY:  I believe there was one before


       3        that, and that included the Five Points


       4        boundary, which included all of the right-of-way


       5        from Oak, Margaret, Park.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Reingold, angled parking


       7        is not 90-degree parking, is it?


       8             MR. REINGOLD:  Actually, under the Florida


       9        Statutes, angled parking includes perpendicular


      10        parking.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  So angled parking could be


      12        90-degree parking?


      13             MR. REINGOLD:  That is correct, sir.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let the record reflect that


      15        Councilman Holt has joined us.


      16             Questions for Mr. Duggan, I have several


      17        people on the queue.  Mr. Corrigan, Mr. Redman,


      18        Mr. Bishop, and Councilman Dick -- I'm sorry,


      19        Reggie Brown.


      20             You're "D," right, on the queue?


      21             MR. D. BROWN:  Yes.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Because you're really


      23        an "R."


      24             Mr. Corrigan, I'll let you go, but these


      25        are questions for Mr. Duggan.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. CORRIGAN:  Mr. Chairman, I appreciate


       2        it.  I was going to clarify a little bit more,


       3        the previous question about the proposed bill


       4        and the parking.


       5             I, as the district councilperson


       6        representing the area previously, introduced a


       7        bill to allow perpendicular parking about a


       8        block and a half down from this.  The council


       9        approved it unanimously because that fed into


      10        the nature of the parking.


      11             I've committed to the applicant that I


      12        would introduce that legislation going forward.


      13        I wanted to wait until this PUD was decided


      14        prior to introducing that legislation.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Corrigan.


      16             Mr. Redman, questions?


      17             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      18             Mr. Duggan, the sound level that I've heard


      19        several questions about, I haven't heard you say


      20        anything to this matter.  It sounds like, you


      21        know, a -- 10 o'clock on a weekday and


      22        12 o'clock on the weekend would be a --


      23        something that would be advisable for the


      24        community.


      25             MR. DUGGAN:  Thank you, Councilman Redman,




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        for reminding me of that.  I apologize.


       2             My clients' position on that, I believe,


       3        would be -- the two bars just up the street,


       4        restaurants -- excuse me, the two restaurants


       5        just up the street do not have a limitation on


       6        them.  They are subject to the noise ordinance,


       7        and we would propose to be consistent with the


       8        other restaurants within the same block.  I


       9        don't know that my clients want to agree to some


      10        new condition that they're not subject to.


      11             MR. REDMAN:  Now, do these others have


      12        outdoor dining and outdoor music?


      13             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes.


      14             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  So you wouldn't be


      15        doing anything different at the roof level of


      16        your building if you had music on it?


      17             MR. DUGGAN:  We would be higher, I will


      18        grant you that.  But as you heard Mr. DeVault


      19        say, this is not a bar, this is not a club.


      20        It's a restaurant.


      21             So I understand Mr. Crescimbeni's


      22        cross-examination on the hours of their


      23        operation, but I don't envision that they're


      24        going to be carrying on up there late into the


      25        hours.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REDMAN:  Soft dining music, right?


       2             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes.


       3             MR. REDMAN:  All right.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Duggan, was there any


       5        consideration to just putting the music on the


       6        ground floor?


       7             MR. DUGGAN:  No.  They would like to be


       8        able to have music on the rooftop.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Why not the ground floor?


      10        Was there a reason that they didn't want to do


      11        that?


      12             MR. DUGGAN:  Well, they'd like to do both.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Because I think


      14        45 feet in the air is -- where is -- where are


      15        the other two restaurants that you're


      16        referencing?  Their music is on the ground?


      17             MR. DUGGAN:  Actually, I'll defer to


      18        Mr. DeVault.  He probably knows better.


      19             (Mr. DeVault approaches the podium.)


      20             MR. DeVAULT:  Currently, to my knowledge,


      21        O'Brothers, which is just up the street, does


      22        have live music on their bottom level and their


      23        outdoor dining facility, not -- Mossfire does


      24        not, to my knowledge, but they, I assume, could


      25        have it on the roof -- they have an outdoor




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        dining facility on the second floor, which is on


       2        the other side of where our property is, so I


       3        assume they would be able to do the same there.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  But they currently don't


       5        have any music, is that what you're saying?


       6             MR. DeVAULT:  I don't operate those


       7        businesses, so I can't say for sure, but never


       8        when I visited, which is often.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      10             Mr. Bishop.


      11             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      12             It's a joint question, part for Mr. Kelly


      13        and part for Mr. Duggan.


      14             With respect to going back to parking and


      15        the ordinances that we have just been made aware


      16        of, or at least I've just been made aware of,


      17        that allows perpendicular or angled parking in


      18        certain areas, in light of those ordinances, is


      19        a separate ordinance needed to create the


      20        parking on the opposite side of Oak Street?


      21             Or maybe that's for Mr. Reingold.  Is it


      22        necessary to have a separate ordinance to do


      23        that?


      24             MR. REINGOLD:  Through the Chair to


      25        Councilman Bishop, we've actually -- that's been




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        our common practice, to have a separate


       2        ordinance that strictly deals with the parking


       3        issue, pursuant to Florida Statutes 316.195.


       4             MR. BISHOP:  So the ordinance that's on the


       5        books basically gives us the authority to have


       6        another ordinance to actually allow the parking;


       7        is that what we did?


       8             MR. REINGOLD:  Well, what -- and certainly


       9        could be a condition of this PUD, if that's


      10        where the committee was going, was to say you


      11        need to provide additional spaces or X amount of


      12        spaces on the street, and that would be the way


      13        they would have to go.


      14             MR. BISHOP:  Well, that part -- we're


      15        getting to that in a moment, but my question has


      16        to do with the legalities of off-street


      17        parking.  What we heard from Mr. Duggan was it


      18        was his understanding that that parking, in


      19        order to do it, there had to be a separate


      20        ordinance allowing it, but we're now hearing


      21        that there already is an ordinance on the books


      22        that allows 90-degree parking or angled parking


      23        in certain areas, of which this is one.


      24             So my question, then, going in its simplest


      25        form that I know how to ask it is, why is




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        another ordinance necessary to allow it if there


       2        already is an ordinance on the books that allows


       3        it?


       4             MR. REINGOLD:  Through the Chair, I'll be


       5        honest, Councilmember Bishop.  I was only aware


       6        of ordinance 2006-1213-E, which did not cover


       7        this area Mr. Kelly has identified, another


       8        ordinance I have not seen yet, which he says


       9        purports to allow the angled parking in this


      10        area.  If that is true, then they wouldn't need


      11        the separate legislation, but I'm just not aware


      12        yet of the ordinance that was referred to by


      13        Mr. Kelly.


      14             MR. BISHOP:  Well, with that in mind,


      15        question to Mr. Duggan.  Since it is your


      16        intention to build this parking anyway and if


      17        the legal opinion does come down that there is


      18        no need for another ordinance, would you have a


      19        problem putting that additional parking in the


      20        PUD as a condition?


      21             MR. DUGGAN:  That's a good question.


      22             I think that my clients' position would


      23        be -- we're willing to provide what the code


      24        requires us to do.  We're willing to spend our


      25        own money to do off-site, but we are -- as their




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        attorney, I would say you never know what's


       2        going to come up.  What if there's some other


       3        unforeseen eventuality -- this is a condition of


       4        your PUD and the unforeseen occurs?


       5             So, again, this is not a case where we're


       6        not meeting what the Planning Department tells


       7        us we need to provide.  We're providing the


       8        number that the Planning Department says we need


       9        to provide.  So over and above that, we're going


      10        to do that if we can and we're going to pay for


      11        that.  That's our intention.  It's great if we


      12        don't need a separate ordinance to do that.


      13             I would tell them -- I don't --


      14             MR. BISHOP:  You're hedging.


      15             MR. DUGGAN:  Yeah.  I don't know that I


      16        would tell them to agree to that as a condition


      17        of the PUD.  I mean, it's already -- it's in the


      18        written description, but -- the PUD approval is


      19        conditioned on that written description, but --


      20        you know, I -- something could happen.  I don't


      21        know what that could be.


      22             MR. BISHOP:  Well, let me help out here,


      23        then, a second.  Maybe it's not quite exactly


      24        right, but if -- if it is not required and if it


      25        is not -- then what -- what's the real benefit




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       1        of even -- or what's the value of showing it in


       2        here at all if it's not intended to be done?


       3        And if it is intended to be done anyway, then


       4        why would it be a problem to put it in as part


       5        of the PUD?  Since you're going to do it anyway,


       6        what difference does it make?


       7             MR. DUGGAN:  Well, I guess, again, it makes


       8        a difference from the standpoint of -- they're


       9        willing to assume the risk of developing this


      10        project in this economy.  They're meeting the


      11        number of required parking spaces the Planning


      12        Department has said that they need to provide.


      13             My concern is that imposing this extra


      14        burden on them as a condition of the PUD is just


      15        not something that I, personally, would


      16        recommend to them as their counsel that they


      17        agree to, but, again, it's in the PUD and it's


      18        our intention to do it.  We've committed to the


      19        councilman that we're going to do it and spend


      20        our own money to do it.


      21             MR. BISHOP:  Which is essentially saying


      22        maybe?


      23             MR. DUGGAN:  I don't see it as maybe.


      24             My job -- I'm not a -- as somebody else


      25        once said, I'm not a potted plant.  I'm here to




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        advise them on their legal rights and risks.


       2        All of the surrounding businesses on this -- in


       3        the area sought and obtained waivers from


       4        meeting their required parking.


       5             So we're going to provide what we are told


       6        we have to provide.  We want to provide extra


       7        and we want to do it at our -- at our financial


       8        exposure.


       9             MR. BISHOP:  So are you saying you want --


      10        would like the option of doing it, not


      11        necessarily at the same time you did the


      12        building?


      13             MR. DUGGAN:  I'm sorry, I don't follow you.


      14             MR. BISHOP:  Meaning you're going to do it,


      15        but want to have the flexibility of when to do


      16        it or when not to do it or part of it or all of


      17        it, basically not make it a -- a legal


      18        requirement of the PUD, but you intend to do


      19        it?


      20             MR. DUGGAN:  Correct.


      21             MR. BISHOP:  So, I guess, what that starts


      22        to tell me is that maybe -- that, obviously, all


      23        of this comes down to money.  Obviously, they're


      24        developing this project in an uncertain time and


      25        there's -- it's expensive to do this, and so is




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        it a matter of simply having flexibility as to


       2        when you do this?  Meaning, maybe it doesn't get


       3        done exactly when the building is built.  Maybe


       4        it gets done at some point -- down the road at


       5        some point.


       6             I guess I'm trying to understand where it


       7        is basically for all -- for -- basically, just


       8        to cut to the chase -- again, don't get me


       9        wrong.  I'm not trying to give you a hard time


      10        over this, but I'm trying to understand


      11        specifically where this is going.


      12             It sounds all grand and wonderful to show


      13        the parking and to say you're going to do it,


      14        but if there's no requirement that you do it,


      15        that's the same as saying you don't have to do


      16        it.  And so if you don't have to do it, why put


      17        it in there in the first place?  Because all it


      18        does is confuse things.


      19             MR. DUGGAN:  I think as evidence of our


      20        good faith and our commitment to the success of


      21        the larger neighborhood and retail activity,


      22        that's why, as a sign of good faith.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Anything else, Mr. Bishop?


      24             MR. BISHOP:  Okay.  No.  I'm fine.


      25             Thank you.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Bishop.


       2             On the queue I have Councilman Reggie


       3        Brown, followed by Councilmember Holt, and then


       4        Councilman Corrigan.


       5             Mr. Brown.


       6             MR. R. BROWN:  Yes.  Through the Chair, I


       7        think this is page 9, dealing with the setbacks.


       8             I just want to be clear, are we going to


       9        take the recommendation to implement a setback


      10        or we're not going to?  Because I'm not really


      11        clear.


      12             As I look down the street -- I'm very


      13        familiar with the area, and you can see the


      14        greenery in front of most buildings.  By not


      15        committing to a setback, I think you will really


      16        change the -- that whole street appearance, and


      17        so I just wanted to make sure that I was clear


      18        as to what position the client was taking


      19        regarding the setback.


      20             MR. DUGGAN:  The overlay allows you to


      21        build right up to the property line.  But if you


      22        do that, it requires that you provide what's


      23        called an urban buffer, an 8-foot urban buffer.


      24        We're going to do that.


      25             We have some conceptual elevations that I




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        can pass out to you that show how that might


       2        look in terms of some landscaping.  So if that's


       3        your issue, I'm happy to pass that out to all of


       4        you.


       5             We're going to also provide the required


       6        number of canopy trees that 21 parking spaces


       7        demands.


       8             So there will a setback.  It's going to be


       9        an 8-foot setback.  It's going to be provided


      10        from the property line into the right-of-way,


      11        which is allowed and which is -- in which other


      12        PUDs in this neighborhood have also utilized.


      13             So we're going to meet the canopy tree


      14        requirement.  We're going to meet the urban


      15        setback requirement.  This is an issue that the


      16        Planning Department and I -- and us worked on


      17        extensively.  So I don't want to -- I want to


      18        make it clear that there will be the required


      19        urban setback that the overlay requires if you


      20        build right up to the property line.


      21             MR. R. BROWN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      22             And my -- through the Chair, my second


      23        question, it deals with the noise level, because


      24        there is a difference between music coming from


      25        a system -- a stereo system versus a band.  And




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        we deal with this challenge all the time with


       2        neighbors playing music, so I guess my concern


       3        or question is, what measures, in terms of the


       4        noise level, to ensure that the clients -- not


       5        the clients, but the neighbors, they're not


       6        being overwhelmed with loud music?


       7             Because as I heard one of the speakers say


       8        tonight, you know, there's no one that's going


       9        to come out and measure, you know, the decibel,


      10        if you will.  And I can tell that JSO is very


      11        busy.  And I don't think you want to have that


      12        type of relationship, and so I -- I think that's


      13        something that really need to be worked out.


      14             And when I think about it -- and I heard


      15        that there's no -- there are no neighbors here


      16        from that immediate area.


      17             And I also am familiar with other


      18        restaurants that have entertainment.  I don't


      19        know how they're doing it, but do we have any


      20        concerns right now from other neighbors with


      21        outdoor entertainment that -- to your


      22        knowledge?


      23             MR. DUGGAN:  Not to my knowledge.


      24             Again, I'm not aware that the Planning


      25        Department was contacted by any residents.  I'm




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       1        not aware that Councilman Corrigan's office was


       2        contacted by any residents.  I was not


       3        contacted.  You know, the mailed notices go out


       4        to everybody with my name and phone number as


       5        the agent for the applicant.  Nobody showed up


       6        at Planning Commission to -- who's a resident of


       7        the area showed up to address that issue.


       8             I can tell you that we will be subject to


       9        the law, just as the two restaurants down the


      10        street will be.  And, furthermore, my clients


      11        operate a business now within the historic


      12        district, Orsay.  They've had one noise


      13        complaint in the entire several years that


      14        they've been open.  It had to do with a garbage


      15        truck picking up early, and they straightened


      16        that out.


      17             I mean, they're good neighbors.  It's their


      18        intention to be good neighbors.  This is going


      19        to be a nice restaurant that doesn't really


      20        cater noi- -- you know, loud music.


      21             MR. R. BROWN:  Right.  And I guess my


      22        biggest position with this is that a lot of the


      23        clients that will frequent this restaurant, we


      24        hope, will come from the community.  And we have


      25        to be sensitive to their lifestyles in terms of,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        like, when you go out Saturday night and getting


       2        up for worship on Sunday mornings, just


       3        different things like that, and so that -- that


       4        would be my only concern -- or one of my


       5        greatest concerns is that -- if we can work that


       6        out to make sure, because the last thing I would


       7        want to see happen in any community is that the


       8        business owners, they're not sensitive to the


       9        living conditions, if you will, of the -- of


      10        their neighbors, and so that -- that would be my


      11        only concern.


      12             And I saw a few hands, and so at some point


      13        I'm sure we'll reach out to ask other questions.


      14             Thank you.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown.


      16             Councilman Holt and then -- followed by


      17        Councilman Corrigan and Councilman Dick Brown.


      18             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


      19             Mr. Duggan, sorry to be coming in late on


      20        this and maybe rehash some of the things that


      21        have already been talked about, but I'll try to


      22        be fast about my questions.


      23             First of all, to kind of come off of


      24        something that Councilmember Brown was saying


      25        about noise, what are the -- what are the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        requirements for the hours of operation?  Do you


       2        have a --


       3             MR. DUGGAN:  The PUD currently does not


       4        have a condition about the hours of operation,


       5        but it's a restaurant, so -- Mr. Crescimbeni did


       6        ask some questions about that.  It's going to be


       7        typical restaurant hours.  You know, probably


       8        midnight during the week -- I mean, midnight on


       9        the weekends, a little bit earlier during the


      10        week.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Holt, I think we


      12        established earlier that the alcohol was


      13        regulated by the State up until 2 a.m., but the


      14        restaurant could be open as long as they wanted


      15        to, correct?  Did I understand that correctly?


      16             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. DeVault is acknowledging


      18        yes.


      19             MR. HOLT:  So the -- oh, goodness.  I guess


      20        that's the southeast, there's an apartment or


      21        condo building.  What is the height on that?


      22             MR. DUGGAN:  That is 1661 Riverside.  I


      23        believe the height on that is close to 55 feet.


      24             I'm looking to the Planning Department,


      25        but --




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. KELLY:  It's a -- four stories in


       2        total, so you have three floors of residential


       3        above retail.


       4             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  I drove by there about


       5        two hours ago and kind of looked the area over.


       6             The proposed additional parking that you


       7        were talking about, I guess, would be to the


       8        west of your property?


       9             MR. DUGGAN:  To the east.


      10             MR. HOLT:  To the east.


      11             MR. DUGGAN:  It will be -- here's an


      12        aerial.


      13             This is the property right here


      14        (indicating).  We're creating on-street parking


      15        here and here, and then we're going to add on


      16        the east side of Oak Street.


      17             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  I see.


      18             And that's how may additional --


      19             MR. DUGGAN:  A minimum of 11.  We've gotten


      20        written consent from those property owners.


      21             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Mr. Bishop makes a very


      22        good point, though, that if it's not in the


      23        ordinance, then we really don't have anything to


      24        hang our hat on.  Would your client be open to


      25        conditioning it that within two years that that




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        parking is built?


       2             MR. DUGGAN:  We'll discuss that with them,


       3        while I anticipate you're going to hear from the


       4        other folks again, and hopefully we'll have an


       5        answer for you.


       6             MR. HOLT:  All right.  Thank you, sir.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan, followed by


       8        Councilmember Brown.


       9             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      10             Before I get started, if I could get


      11        clarification from you.  We'll have an


      12        opportunity to come back and address the


      13        committee --


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Absolutely.  We're still in


      15        public hearing.  Do you have a comment --


      16        questions for Mr. Duggan?


      17             MR. CORRIGAN:  No.  I'll wait until the --


      18        till later on.


      19             Thank you.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      21             Mr. Brown, Mr. Dick brown.


      22             MR. D. BROWN:  Mr. Chairman, I could bring


      23        this back up in committee.  I just wanted to


      24        weigh in on the sound ordinance and sort of


      25        thing.  Why don't I wait --




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Unless you have a question


       2        for Mr. --


       3             MR. D. BROWN:  No, I don't have a question.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  We'll take that


       5        up.


       6             Any other questions for Mr. Duggan?


       7             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none --


       9        thank you, Mr. Duggan.


      10             Will you agree that that included your


      11        rebuttal?


      12             MR. DUGGAN:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      14             MR. DUGGAN:  Although, as Mr. Reingold


      15        referred, I would like a limited surrebuttal.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  How limited?


      17             MR. DUGGAN:  It depends on what they say.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Would anyone


      19        from the opposition care to provide a


      20        surrebuttal to the committee?


      21             (Ms. Ehas approaches the podium.)


      22             MS. EHAS:  Perhaps it should be a misbuttal


      23        [sic] instead of a surbuttal [sic].


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  We can certainly ask about


      25        that.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Mr. Reingold, how much time do we provide


       2        for the surrebuttal?  Do we need to put


       3        something on the clock?


       4             MR. REINGOLD:  It would probably be a good


       5        idea just to establish an amount.  There is no


       6        written amount.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you have a


       8        recommendation, Mr. Timekeeper?


       9             MR. REINGOLD:  Keep it to a minute or less.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  How about a minute and a


      11        half and then we'll provide two minutes -- I'm


      12        going to give the same thing to Mr. Duggan.


      13             So, go ahead, Ms. Ehas.


      14             MS. EHAS:  Okay.  Kay Ehas again.


      15             I just want to be clear that, when you ask


      16        for a PUD, it means you cannot comply with the


      17        existing code.  Okay?  It's not complying with


      18        the overlay in terms of height definitions,


      19        parking and signage.


      20             The overlay was put in place to eliminate


      21        deviations.  So when they talk about the parking


      22        deviations of existing businesses, that's in the


      23        past.  We can't change that.  The overlay is to


      24        prevent future deviations.  And we fought long


      25        and hard about parking, as Mr. Corrigan will




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        probably tell you.


       2             This requires, if they're going to ask for


       3        a 75 percent reduction, 19 spaces on the


       4        street.  I mean, I'm sorry, on site, which


       5        they're not providing.  So they're not meeting


       6        it.  I just want to be clear about that.


       7             We only asked for one prohibition on the


       8        uses, and that was the medical use.  Anything


       9        else in their PUD they provided themselves.


      10             Yes, we understand that the site


      11        constraints hamper them from providing parking


      12        on the site.  We get that, which is why we asked


      13        them to provide dedicated off-site parking,


      14        through a parking agreement, for the residential


      15        uses, and eliminate the medical use because it's


      16        so parking intensive.


      17             The handout on page 11 of our packet, which


      18        is a site comparison chart, I just want to point


      19        that out because it will show you all the


      20        previous developments that RAP negotiated.  They


      21        all provide on-site parking.


      22             The parking on the street that was


      23        developed on Oak and Margaret were four of those


      24        developments, and they're all currently full.


      25        So that 2006 parking study the Planning




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Department did is no longer relevant.


       2             All of those developments have setbacks.


       3        An urban buffer -- an 8-foot sidewalk


       4        requirement is not a setback.  A setback is when


       5        you're actually moving the building back from


       6        the sidewalk.  They are not doing that.  We


       7        would like them to do that.  Four feet for a


       8        third of the building we don't think is a lot to


       9        ask.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Ehas.


      11             Any questions from committee?


      12             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you.


      14             Mr. Duggan, a few minutes.


      15             (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)


      16             MR. DUGGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      17             The overlay must be consistent with the


      18        comprehensive plan.  The comprehensive plan


      19        requires infill redevelopment instead of


      20        allowing new areas to commercialize.  A PUD is a


      21        perfect vehicle for allowing that comprehensive


      22        plan requirement to be met when there's these


      23        overlay requirements.  So that's not at all


      24        inconsistent.  In fact, the overlay must be


      25        consistent with the comprehensive plan, which




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        all of you have recently adopted amendments to


       2        that, incentivize and encourage infill


       3        redevelopment, especially in areas just like


       4        this.  This is exactly what smart planning is


       5        looking for, infill redevelopment in the urban


       6        areas.


       7             Not providing residential off-street


       8        parking if we have a residential use, that's our


       9        risk.  If the market says, I'm not going to rent


      10        there because you don't have dedicated


      11        off-street parking, that risk falls on them.


      12             I'm touched by Ms. Ehas' concern about my


      13        client's proforma, but it's really not within


      14        her bailiwick.


      15             As to the 2006 Planning Department studies


      16        of continued viability and relevance, that's for


      17        your experts, planners, to determine, not


      18        Ms. Ehas, who's not AICP certified, I would


      19        imagine, or she would have told you.


      20             Finally, in terms of giving up the floor


      21        plate, setting the building back, that gives up


      22        rentable square footage for my clients' project,


      23        that directly impacts the financial viability of


      24        this project.  It's very easy for RAP to spend


      25        their money and modify their floor plate, but




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        I -- again, I will tell you, the building that


       2        they are tying that 4-foot setback to, they have


       3        an appurtenance to their building that


       4        completely blocks the sidewalk right there.  It


       5        is not set back for the limit of the frontage of


       6        the building.  It completely blocks pedestrian


       7        access down that sidewalk.


       8             That's all I have.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Duggan.


      10             Any questions from the committee?


      11             Councilmember Bishop, followed by


      12        Councilmember Holt.


      13             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      14             With respect to the floor plate issue, I


      15        completely understand the issue of rentable


      16        floor space.  It makes good sense.


      17             However, in light of the fact that most of


      18        your ground floor plate, at least with respect


      19        to the proposed site plan, that setback, if you


      20        will -- as I understand it from our discussion,


      21        it's not really a setback, it's usable space


      22        because it's intended to be outdoor dining, if I


      23        understand that correctly.  Most of that far


      24        exceeds four feet.


      25             Now, the four feet, as I understand it, is




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        a magic number because that happens to be what


       2        Mossfire's building is set back from the


       3        sidewalk, is four feet.  And I don't know that


       4        it has anything to do necessarily with


       5        obstructions of the sidewalk.  It has more to do


       6        with, from what I understand, a visual corridor


       7        on the street.


       8             If your drawing is reasonably to scale, it


       9        looks like the only area of concern here -- this


      10        is very small -- it's occupied currently by part


      11        of the stairwell and a bathroom, not recognizing


      12        if that space wasn't used, there would have to


      13        be -- internal of the building.  It adds up to


      14        about 45 square feet.  That's the amount, based


      15        on what I'm getting here.


      16             And considering that this is a site plan


      17        concept drawing -- because if -- if I'm right,


      18        this is not actually a condition of the PUD, and


      19        that the building actually hasn't totally been


      20        designed.  That's to come later.


      21             Wouldn't it appear that that little,


      22        small -- it shouldn't be that big of a deal in


      23        the grand scheme of things if it allows that


      24        corridor -- that view corridor to work.  In


      25        other words --




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. DUGGAN:  Well --


       2             MR. BISHOP:  -- would that be such a big


       3        deal?


       4             MR. DUGGAN:  Well, I would submit that it


       5        is and I'll tell you why.  All of this area in


       6        here (indicating), on the ground floor, is set


       7        back already.  We've got this arcade effect for


       8        the vast majority of the frontage of the


       9        building.


      10             And because we are able to create this area


      11        right here (indicating) to create an added


      12        setback, pedestrian-friendly, arcade, open-air


      13        out- -- open-air feel, that makes this space


      14        right here that much more important because all


      15        the rest of the frontage has already been set


      16        back.


      17             So, you know, I would submit it's actually


      18        not -- it would be very inconvenient to now have


      19        to find a new spot for the ground floor


      20        bathrooms for the restaurant.


      21             In terms of the view corridor, again, we're


      22        going to have an 8-foot-wide view corridor that


      23        just past our property line is going to be


      24        blocked by the Mossfire steps, the stoop.


      25             So we're going to be creating a view




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        corridor that doesn't exist now, that's going to


       2        look nice.  And then just when you get past our


       3        view corridor, you're going to see this big,


       4        concrete, six-step behemoth that entirely


       5        crosses the sidewalk.  So -- and, again, it's


       6        45 feet here (indicating), but you've got to


       7        find somewhere else to put it.


       8             MR. BISHOP:  I don't argue that it's a


       9        behemoth of a stairway, but it doesn't really


      10        block any view corridors.  But anyway, that's


      11        good.


      12             Thank you.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Bishop.


      14             Mr. Holt.


      15             MR. HOLT:  Thank you.


      16             Through the Chair to Mr. Duggan, did you


      17        get an answer for me on the parking within two


      18        years?


      19             MR. DUGGAN:  My clients would prefer not to


      20        agree to that as a condition.


      21             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  Very good.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Holt.


      23             Mr. Duggan, how many seats -- is the


      24        restaurant designed or not?


      25             Now, when we met and had our meeting on the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        16th or whenever it was -- 14th -- you brought a


       2        model.  Is that model not -- or -- what do you


       3        call those things, a model?


       4             MR. DUGGAN:  It's a study model.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Study model.


       6             Does that mean that the building is


       7        designed or not designed?


       8             MR. DUGGAN:  No.  It means it's not


       9        designed.  We haven't done final approval of


      10        colors or finish or any of those issues.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, how much do you think


      12        it will look like the model you brought and


      13        showed me?  Is there a possibility it might not


      14        look like that?


      15             MR. DUGGAN:  Well, it certainly won't be


      16        made of balsa wood, I will grant you that.


      17             Beyond that, I'm not the architect and I'm


      18        not the owner, so I -- I don't want to make a


      19        commitment to that.


      20             We have a site plan that shows us building


      21        to the property line and it's a triangle-shaped


      22        piece, so I'm sure it will be a triangle-shaped


      23        building.


      24             In terms of the seats of the restaurant, we


      25        are meeting the ABT requirement of 150 feet --




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        excuse me -- 150 seats.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  And that's for the ground


       3        floor and the roof or just the ground floor?


       4             MR. DUGGAN:  Both, combined, 150 over both.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Any other -- I'm


       6        sorry, we have one further question from


       7        Councilmember Dick Brown.


       8             MR. D. BROWN:  I'll just wait to get back


       9        in.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  I've got Mr. Corrigan


      11        and you preceding him on the regular discussion,


      12        so -- any other questions for Mr. Duggan?


      13             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  The court


      15        reporter, where do you -- are you okay to


      16        continue for a little while or --


      17             THE REPORTER:  Yes.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Before I close


      19        the public hearing, the Chair kind of senses


      20        perhaps maybe we're not quite ready for prime


      21        time here.  I've heard several concerns raised


      22        by the committee members, and the Chair would be


      23        willing to defer this, but I want to -- would


      24        anybody object to a deferral and get these folks


      25        back to the bargaining table?  Anybody have a




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        problem with that?


       2             MR. D. BROWN:  It seems it's a little


       3        unreasonable.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Brown.


       5             MR. R. BROWN:  Yes.  Through the Chair, I


       6        would like to hear from the district


       7        councilperson and how it's going to impact him.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Bishop -- on the


       9        deferral, Mr. Bishop.


      10             MR. BISHOP:  Well, this one -- this is a


      11        painful process here for a project that's a


      12        wonderful project.  And it just seems to me,


      13        sitting up here listening to both sides, we're


      14        all arguing about very small things, that -- it


      15        would strike me that if the two sides could


      16        simply get together and -- I mean, we're talking


      17        about a very -- some very small things to a


      18        building mass of a building that hasn't been


      19        designed yet other than in a study phase, that


      20        at this stage of the game --


      21             I mean, unless there's a whole lot more


      22        work that's been done that we don't know about,


      23        it strikes me that being able to work out that


      24        view corridor should be a very small thing to do


      25        because it's a very small piece of one floor of




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        a three-story building.


       2             The issue of parking, I think, is -- you


       3        know, from my own perspective, I don't think


       4        we're all that far off, other than it does


       5        concern me a little bit that they say they're


       6        going to do something, but they're not willing


       7        to commit to it.  That just causes an


       8        uncertainly factor that bothers me a little bit,


       9        but -- but be that as it may, with respect to


      10        the building and the massing and all of that, I


      11        think we're -- they're not all that far apart.


      12        And if they could just simply solve those


      13        things, we might be able to make this thing


      14        slide through.


      15             So it would be my recommendation that you


      16        do defer it one cycle just to -- maybe they work


      17        this stuff out, come back, and everybody will be


      18        happy with it, with what can be a wonderful


      19        project.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Bishop.


      21             Mr. Corrigan, did you have a comment?


      22        Would you like to make a comment on the proposed


      23        deferral?


      24             MR. CORRIGAN:  Mr. Chairman, I'll support


      25        whatever the chair and the committee wants to




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        do.  I'll tell you that we wouldn't be here


       2        tonight if I didn't think we've gone as far as


       3        we could in this project.  I would have asked


       4        for a deferral from the applicant prior to


       5        coming here if I thought there was more work


       6        that could be done.


       7             If you want to take a break and give your


       8        court reporter a few minutes, I'll be happy to


       9        sit down with the applicant for a few minutes


      10        and see -- I've heard all the discussions -- see


      11        what I can accomplish in a few minutes and come


      12        back or I'll come back the next meeting to --


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Corrigan.


      14             Councilman Dick Brown, on the deferral, did


      15        you want to comment?


      16             MR. D. BROWN:  Yes.  I was impressed with


      17        how much work has been done with the community


      18        already and the fact that this is outside of the


      19        historic district.  I think a pretty nice level


      20        of cooperation has taken place already, and I --


      21        I'm impressed with what this can mean to the


      22        neighborhood in terms of creating some new


      23        energy in an area that has a need for it, and


      24        we've got planning approval and the board


      25        approval, so it looked like a pretty impressive




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        project.


       2             I, earlier, was going to talk about the


       3        sound ordinance because nobody wants to be a


       4        nuisance and -- and it certainly can be enforced


       5        after hours, so -- but this is a different ball


       6        game now.


       7             I think it's ready for action because


       8        you're throwing folks back together who have


       9        already given it their best effort.  If


      10        Mr. Corrigan wants to have a huddle or something


      11        like that -- but I just think all you're doing


      12        is really creating more ill will in the


      13        community by forcing some input that has gone


      14        well past its real jurisdiction anyhow.  I think


      15        it's ready for action.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown.


      17             Mr. Redman.


      18             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you Mr. Chairman.


      19             I agree.  It appears to me, from what I've


      20        heard, that there has been plenty of discussion


      21        and -- and they've pretty well -- they're close


      22        to agreement, you're right, but I don't think


      23        that -- you know, whatever they do, if we defer


      24        this, is just going to create more problems.  I


      25        think the wise thing to do at this point is go




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        ahead and pass this thing out.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Reingold, if we take a


       3        recess and allow Mr. Corrigan to huddle, how


       4        does that impact the ex-parte disclosure when we


       5        reconvene?


       6             MR. REINGOLD:  The one thing I would say is


       7        that Mr. Corrigan would probably need to get


       8        back up and say, here are the additional


       9        conversations I've had and here's what we


      10        discussed, and I bet we could probably figure


      11        out when and what time that happened.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Should I leave the public


      13        hearing open, then?


      14             MR. REINGOLD:  I think that would be a good


      15        decision.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  What we'll do is


      17        we're going take a brief recess to allow our


      18        court reporter time to recover.  I would


      19        encourage the other committee members to avoid


      20        any ex-parte communication.


      21             Mr. Corrigan, ten minutes?


      22             MR. CORRIGAN:  Sure.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  And if you'll report back to


      24        us, that would be appreciated.


      25             So we'll stand in recess for ten minutes.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             (Brief recess.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  We're going to reconvene.


       3             Mr. Corrigan, if you need more time, feel


       4        free.  We're going to take up a couple more


       5        items.


       6             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Inaudible.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  If you're ready to go.  If


       8        not, if you need some more time, we'll just take


       9        up some items and you can check back in with


      10        us.


      11             And let the record reflect that


      12        Councilman Jones joined us a while back.  I


      13        failed to acknowledge that he had joined us in


      14        progress, but he is here as well.


      15             Mr. Corrigan.


      16             MR. CORRIGAN:  Mr. Chairman, I appreciate


      17        your patience in this matter.


      18             First let me declare that I did have a


      19        conversation with both the applicant and the


      20        majority of the opposition that spoke earlier


      21        this evening, so let that be on the record.


      22             I would like to comment to the committee


      23        that I have consensus right now.  I don't have


      24        consensus.  I'm happy to continue to work on it,


      25        but I don't want to hold up this committee's




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        work.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you think there's


       3        anything -- any fruitful progress could be made


       4        if you continue?


       5             MR. CORRIGAN:  I think we've made a little


       6        bit of progress on one of the issues that was


       7        raised, but we do, by no means, have consensus


       8        on the rest of them.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  I'll tell you


      10        what, Mr. Corrigan, if you don't mind and you're


      11        willing to do that, what we'll do is we'll


      12        continue the public hearing for later on,


      13        sometime this evening, and I'll let you meet


      14        with the parties.


      15             Mr. Reingold, did you have any questions?


      16             MR. REINGOLD:  (Shakes head.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  And we'll get back to our


      18        agenda.  And when you return back up here today,


      19        I'll acknowledge your presence and let you give


      20        us a progress report.


      21             Is that fair?


      22             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I


      23        appreciate it.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you for being


      25        willing to do that.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Shuttle diplomacy.  I haven't heard that


       2        word in a couple of decades.


       3             (Inaudible discussion.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes, that's right.  Some of


       5        these young guys up here might not know that.


       6             All right.  Mr. Jones, did you have a


       7        couple of items?


       8             I'm afraid to go to a noncommittee member


       9        after this first two-hour session, but do you


      10        have a couple of items that you'd like us to


      11        take up while you're here?


      12             MR. JONES:  Yes, sir.  I appreciate it.


      13        And I think these will be a lot easier.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  I'm going to hold you


      15        to that.


      16             I think you had one on page --


      17             MR. JONES:  It's on page 4, item 10,


      18        2010-594.  That's a rezoning.  We had a


      19        community meeting last week, and Mr. Boswell was


      20        there, along with several of the residents, and


      21        there's no opposition.  And that one is --


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Item 10, on page 4,


      23        correct?


      24             MR. JONES:  Yes, sir.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Item 10,




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        2010-594.


       2             Mr. Crofts.


       3             MR. CROFTS:  Item 10, ordinance 2010-594,


       4        seeks to rezone .65 acres of property from


       5        RLD-60 and CCG-1 to PUD to permit a parking lot


       6        facility for a glass service company located at


       7        the corner of Tunis Street and Cassat Avenue in


       8        Jacksonville's Westside in Council District 9.


       9             This request for a rezoning is a companion


      10        to a small scale land use amendment that was


      11        heard at our last LUZ meeting reflected in


      12        ordinance 2010-593.


      13             I will point out that staff's original


      14        recommendation for these requests was to deny;


      15        however, we have met with the applicant and he


      16        has agreed to amend his application and the PUD


      17        in this particular rezoning by leaving the rear


      18        60 feet essentially undisturbed, in a natural


      19        state, or unimpacted to protect the


      20        single-family properties to the rear and allow


      21        only access to the parking from the property


      22        fronting on Cassat Avenue.


      23             Along with other progressive considerations


      24        regarding landscaping and setbacks and fencing,


      25        staff recommends approval with the following




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        11 conditions:


       2             Beginning on number 1, "The development


       3        shall be subject to the original legal


       4        description dated May 12, 2010."


       5             Number 2, "The development shall be subject


       6        to the original written description dated


       7        May 12, 2010."


       8             Number 3, "The development shall be subject


       9        to the revised site plan dated August 24,


      10        2010."


      11             Number 4, "The required transportation


      12        improvements shall be made in accordance with


      13        the Development Services memorandum dated


      14        July 26, 2010, or as otherwise approved by the


      15        Planning and Development Department."


      16             Number 5, "A 6-foot-high, 95 percent opaque


      17        vinyl fence shall be constructed along the north


      18        and east sides of the rear parking area.  A


      19        6-foot-high fence" -- "a 6-foot-high, 95 percent


      20        opaque vinyl fence shall be required along the


      21        south property line if the adjacent property


      22        owner removes the existing fence."


      23             Number 6, "The 20-foot setback shall be" --


      24        okay.  "The 20-foot setback for parking shall be


      25        required on both the north and south sides of




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the property."


       2             Number 7, "The 60-foot setback shall be


       3        required from the Dakar Street right-of-way."


       4             Number 8, "One shade tree, a minimum of


       5        2.5-inch caliper, spaced 20 [sic] feet apart,


       6        shall be placed and maintained between the


       7        6-foot-high fence and the north property line."


       8             Number 9, "There shall be no exterior


       9        lighting in the rear parking area."


      10             Number 10, "The rear parking area shall be


      11        for employee and customer parking only.  Parking


      12        shall be permitted between the hours of 7:00


      13        a.m. and 6:00 p.m., Monday through Friday, and


      14        8:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. on Saturday."


      15             Number 11 and finally, "Access to the rear


      16        parking area shall be from the existing paved


      17        parking area.  No access from Dakar Street or


      18        Tunis Street is permitted."


      19             Thank you.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Crofts.


      21             Mr. Crofts, on item -- on condition


      22        number 6, you added a couple of words that


      23        aren't on the page.  You said something about


      24        setback for parking.


      25             MR. CROFTS:  Yes.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Should those be in there?


       2             MR. CROFTS:  Yes.  This is a last-minute


       3        revision that was just handed to me that was


       4        under some final discussion, and we -- I will


       5        read that again for the record if you'd like me


       6        to.  It's, "A 20-foot setback for parking shall


       7        be required on both the north and south sides of


       8        the property."


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      10             Does that complete your report?


      11             MR. CROFTS:  That's it.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  And with your -- with these


      13        conditions, the department changes their


      14        original denial to an approval?


      15             MR. CROFTS:  Yes.  And I would, again,


      16        point out that that is subject to a revised site


      17        plan that was submitted and -- not in the


      18        original report, but as revised and dated


      19        8/24/2010.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Crofts.


      21             Mr. Reingold.


      22             MR. REINGOLD:  If I may, through the Chair


      23        to Mr. Crofts, on condition number 8, I may have


      24        heard this wrong, but I heard you say that one


      25        shade tree, a minimum 2.5-inch caliper, spaced




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        20 feet apart.  Was it 20 or 25?


       2             MR. CROFTS:  Twenty-five feet, sir.


       3             MR. REINGOLD:  Thank you.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


       5             Any question for Mr. Crofts?


       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no


       8        questions, this is a quasi-judicial matter.


       9        Does anyone have any ex-parte communication to


      10        disclose?


      11             MR. JONES:  (Indicating.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Jones.


      13             MR. JONES:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      14             I have had two discussions with Mr. Boswell


      15        and one with the community and Mr. Boswell last


      16        Thursday.  I discussed the conditions, the


      17        setbacks, and to make sure that there was no


      18        encroachment in the residential community.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Jones.


      20             Any other disclosures?


      21             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none, we


      23        have a public hearing scheduled this evening.


      24        The public hearing is open.  I have one speaker


      25        card, Dan Boswell.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             (Mr. Boswell approaches the podium.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Boswell, if you'll state


       3        your name and address for the record, then I'm


       4        going to ask you a question.


       5             MR. BOSWELL:  Yes, sir.


       6             Dan Boswell, 4014 Ranie Road, Jacksonville,


       7        Florida 32218.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Boswell.


       9             Did you hear the conditions and do you


      10        agree with the conditions that were read into


      11        the record?


      12             MR. BOSWELL:  I did hear all the conditions


      13        and I do agree to them.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Would you care to


      15        address the committee?  If so, you have three


      16        minutes.


      17             MR. BOSWELL:  No, sir.  I'm fine with it.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Any questions


      19        for Mr. Boswell?


      20             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you, sir.


      22             Any other person in the audience want to


      23        address the committee?


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no one, the public




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        hearing is closed.


       2             MR. JOOST:  Move the amendment.


       3             MR. BISHOP:  Second.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion on the amendment by


       5        Mr. Joost, second by Mr. Bishop.


       6             Discussion on the amendment?


       7             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  If not, all those in favor,


       9        say yes.


      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Yes.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Opposed, say no.


      12             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  By our action, you've


      14        adopted the amendment.


      15             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as amended.


      16             MR. HOLT:  Second.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion by Mr. Joost on the


      18        bill as amended, second by Mr. Holt.


      19             Discussion?


      20             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, open the


      22        ballot, vote.


      23             (Committee ballot opened.)


      24             MR. CRESCIMBENI:  (Votes yea.)


      25             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. BISHOP:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. D. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. R. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       6             (Committee ballot closed.).


       7             MS. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nay.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       9        approved item 10, 2010-594.


      10             MR. JONES:  Thank you.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Jones, I think your


      12        other item was item 20?


      13             MR. JONES:  No.  Item 17 on page 6.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Item 17 on page 6, 2010-655.


      15             Mr. Crofts.


      16             MR. CROFTS:  Item 17.  Again, ordinance


      17        2010-655 seeks to rezone 6.7 acres of property


      18        located at 1352 Beaver Street, 1329 Church


      19        Street, and 1375 Vega Street, in Council


      20        District 9, just west of the Myrtle Street


      21        corridor.  The request is a rezoning from IL to


      22        PUD.


      23             By way of background, the current land use


      24        designation on the property is HI, heavy


      25        industrial.  The rezoning is being sought for




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the purpose of permitting an existing scrap


       2        metal processing facility.  It will allow the


       3        existing use of this facility to remain, in


       4        addition to allowing other heavy industrial


       5        uses.


       6             Permitted uses within the PUD will include,


       7        but are not limited to, recycling facilities,


       8        commercial and industrial service


       9        establishments, retail sales of heavy machinery,


      10        outdoor scrap processing, and outdoor storage of


      11        scrap and processed scrap.


      12             Outdoor activities in connection with the


      13        scrap processing are to include the use of


      14        metal-cutting torches, blade-cutting equipment,


      15        and forklifts and cranes for the moving of such


      16        materials.


      17             Staff has reviewed this application from


      18        the standpoint of its consistency with the


      19        2030 Comprehensive Plan, impacts on the


      20        infrastructure and the environment, internal and


      21        external compatibility, and the treatment of


      22        certain factors such as landscaping, for


      23        example, the use of hedges and trees and visual


      24        barriers and buffering and height limitations,


      25        and recommends approval with the following




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        conditions:


       2             Condition number 1, "The development shall


       3        be subject to the original legal description


       4        dated July 26, 2010."


       5             Number 2, "The development shall be subject


       6        to the revised written description dated


       7        September 8th, 2010."


       8             And number 3 and finally, "The development


       9        shall be subject to the original site plan dated


      10        July 26th, 2010."


      11             That's your report.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Crofts.


      13             And your department recommends approval; is


      14        that correct?


      15             MR. CROFTS:  That is affirmative.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Any questions for


      17        Mr. Crofts?


      18             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none,


      20        this is a quasi-judicial matter.  Does anyone


      21        have any ex-parte communication to disclose?


      22             Mr. Jones.


      23             MR. JONES:  Sure.


      24             I had a discussion with Mr. McCuller a week


      25        and a half ago, two weeks ago, regarding the




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        landscape buffer and the amendments that reflect


       2        those conditions.


       3             Thank you.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Jones.


       5             Anyone else?


       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no one,


       8        we have a public hearing scheduled this evening.


       9             The public hearing is open.  I have one


      10        speaker's card, Mack McCuller.


      11             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. McCuller, if you'll


      13        state your name and address for the record, and


      14        then I have a question for you.


      15             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.


      16             Mack McCuller, 225 Water Street,


      17        representing Main Recycling, the applicant.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Did you hear the conditions


      19        read into the record and do you agree to the


      20        same?


      21             MR. McCULLER:  I do, sir.


      22             And I would like to make an amendment here


      23        on the floor to our written description to add a


      24        use.  So if I could, with my time, I'd like to


      25        go into that one minor issue.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.  You can certainly


       2        present the concept, but, unfortunately, you


       3        won't be able to make an amendment from the


       4        podium there, but let's hear what you have and


       5        maybe you'll find a --


       6             MR. McCULLER:  I'd like to suggest an


       7        amendment.  I'm sorry.


       8             On -- originally, when the application was


       9        prepared, there was omission of item 15 in the


      10        IL zoning -- the list of IL zoning permitted


      11        uses.  The reason it was omitted is because it


      12        excluded scrap processing yards, which is one of


      13        the primary uses we're intending to accomplish


      14        in our PUD, so we took it out.


      15             And it's also considered to be a lesser


      16        included use to the bulk storage yard as well as


      17        to the scrap processing yard; however, in an


      18        abundance of caution on my way over here


      19        tonight, I felt the need to add this provision


      20        back in to the list of IL uses.  I've talked


      21        with staff.  I believe they will tell you it's a


      22        lesser included use in any event.  My client is


      23        entitled to conduct this use currently.


      24             But I would like to make an amendment to


      25        the language in the code, and I'll read it.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        I've given it to Mr. Reingold.  And if I could


       2        read it for your consideration.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.  Go ahead.


       4             MR. McCULLER:  Again, this would be an


       5        added permitted use in the written description,


       6        and it would read as follows:  "Outdoor storage


       7        yards and lots, including auto storage yards


       8        within the storage areas identified on the site


       9        plan."


      10             And that's critical language in that


      11        Councilman Jones has -- and we have met and we


      12        did define an area -- a specific area with a


      13        150-foot buffer from Beaver Street with


      14        vegetative buffers as well as our storage area.


      15        So any other miscellaneous storage activities


      16        that are in this use would go in that existing


      17        defined area in our site plan.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. McCuller.


      19             Any questions from the committee?


      20             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none,


      22        anyone else care to address the committee?


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no one, then, the


      25        public hearing is closed.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Mr. McCuller, just don't go anywhere.  Hang


       2        on one second.


       3             Anybody want to address Mr. McCuller's --


       4             Apparently some discussion on staff.


       5             MR. KELLY:  We concur with the caveat of --


       6        that it be contained within the area identified


       7        on the site plan allowing the outdoor storage.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


       9             Mr. Reingold, do we need to move a separate


      10        amendment or can we just include it with the


      11        existing pending amendment?


      12             MR. REINGOLD:  If it would be okay, I would


      13        actually recommend that the amendment to the


      14        legislation be that it would be that the


      15        development shall be subject to the revised


      16        written description dated September 21, 2010.


      17        And what I've done is I've handwritten in item


      18        number 27, "Outdoor storage yards and lots,


      19        including auto storage yards within the storage


      20        areas identified on the site plan," and that


      21        would turn into the actual written description


      22        that would be attached to the ordinance.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you,


      24        Mr. Reingold.


      25             Mr. McCuller, is that acceptable?




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. McCULLER:  That's perfectly


       2        acceptable.


       3             Thank you.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       5             All right.  We are back in committee.


       6             Is there a motion?


       7             MR. BISHOP:  Move the amendment.


       8             MR. REDMAN:  Second.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion on the amendment by


      10        Mr. Bishop, second by Mr. Redman.


      11             Discussion on the amendment?


      12             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, all those in


      14        favor, say yes.


      15             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Yes.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Opposed, say no.


      17             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      19        approved the amendment.


      20             MR. BISHOP:  Move the bill as amended.


      21             MR. REDMAN:  Second.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion on the bill as


      23        amended by Mr. Bishop, second by Mr. Redman.


      24             Discussion?


      25             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  If not, open the ballot,


       2        vote.


       3             (Committee ballot opened.)


       4             MR. CRESCIMBENI:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       6             MR. BISHOP:  (Votes yea.)


       7             MR. D. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       8             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       9             MR. R. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      10             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      11             (Committee ballot closed.)


      12             MS. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nay.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      14        approved item 18, 2010-656.


      15             Mr. Jones.


      16             MR. JONES:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      17             And if you would defer to item 20, I would


      18        appreciate it.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Turning to page 7 --


      20             MR. JONES:  Appreciate the cooperation.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- item 20, 2010-670.  It is


      22        deferred at the request of the sponsor of the


      23        bill.


      24             Thank you, Mr. Jones.  You're welcome any


      25        time.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. JONES:  Thank you.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Let's go back to


       3        page 1 of the agenda, item 1, 2010-373.  We are


       4        not taking any action on that tonight, but we do


       5        have a scheduled public hearing.


       6             The public hearing is open, and we have one


       7        speaker's card, David Abraham.


       8             Mr. Abraham, are you still here?


       9             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  I guess not.


      11             Anyone else care to address the committee?


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  The public


      14        hearing is continued until October 5th, and


      15        there will be no further action on that bill.


      16             Item 2, 2010-389, is deferred, as is


      17        item 3, 2010-447.


      18             Turning to the top of page 3, item 4,


      19        2010-487.


      20             Mr. Kelly.


      21             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      22             To the Chair, application for rezoning


      23        2010-487 seeks to rezone approximately


      24        6.18 acres from RLD-120 and RLD-100A to PUD.


      25        The PUD seeks to allow for office/business park




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        uses of 77,000 square feet within four buildings


       2        as described on the site plan.


       3             The subject property is located at Perdue


       4        Road.  This is just the newly widened Airport


       5        Center Drive extension between Starratt Road and


       6        Main Street.  The subject property -- again, the


       7        department had concerns with -- with both the


       8        land use and the zoning on this.  I believe it


       9        was deferred.


      10             The last time we had conditions for


      11        approval based on the approval of the land use


      12        amendment, so the PUD is now before you.  We


      13        have seven conditions of approval, and I believe


      14        there's going to be an eighth condition that


      15        would be added in for this development.


      16             The conditions are:


      17             "The development shall be subject to the


      18        original legal description dated October 26,


      19        2009."


      20             "The development shall be subject to the


      21        original written description dated October 6" --


      22        "26, 2009."


      23             Condition 3, "The development shall be


      24        subject to the original site plan dated


      25        October 26, 2009."




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Condition 4, "The development shall be


       2        subject to the Development Services Division


       3        memorandum dated June 15, 2010, or as otherwise


       4        approved by the Planning and Development


       5        Department."


       6             Condition 5, "The development shall be


       7        subject to the Florida Department of


       8        Transportation memorandum dated July 15, 2010."


       9             Condition 6, "At the time of verification


      10        of substantial compliance, architectural


      11        elevations shall be submitted for review and


      12        approval of the Planning and Development


      13        Department."


      14             Condition 7, "Building elevations shall be


      15        residential in character with a pitched, hip, or


      16        gable roof, incorporating architectural


      17        shingles, window treatments, and brick or stucco


      18        facades."


      19             Condition 8 is a condition restricting the


      20        use of the property from multifamily, and I'll


      21        defer to Dylan on that.


      22             MR. REINGOLD:  Condition number 8, through


      23        the Chair to the whole committee and to the


      24        applicant, would be that, "There shall be no


      25        multifamily dwellings" -- "there shall be no




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        multifamily residential dwellings on the subject


       2        property."


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Reingold.


       4             Mr. Kelly, does that complete your report?


       5             MR. KELLY:  Yes, sir.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  And that changes -- the


       7        conditions change the Planning Department's


       8        recommendation?


       9             MR. KELLY:  The Planning Department, again,


      10        did not support the land use request; however,


      11        in light of the approval of the land use,


      12        that -- the department found it, at that


      13        point -- instead of pursuing a denial of the


      14        existing PUD, if the land use was in place at


      15        this place, we would support the PUD under the


      16        land use category.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Kelly.


      18             Any questions for Mr. Kelly and


      19        Mr. Reingold?


      20             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  This is a


      22        quasi-judicial matter.  Anyone have any ex-parte


      23        communications to disclose?


      24             Mr. Holt.


      25             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I spoke with Mr. Boswell earlier today and


       2        yesterday about the condition that Mr. Reingold


       3        just read in to make sure that we don't have any


       4        multifamily in there because it is RPI and could


       5        be used for that later.


       6             Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Holt.


       8             Any other disclosures?


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  We have a public


      11        hearing scheduled this evening.  The public


      12        hearing is open.  I have two speaker cards.


      13             Dan Boswell, followed by Robert Riley.


      14             Mr. Boswell.


      15             (Dan Boswell approaches the podium.)


      16             MR. BOSWELL:  Yes.  Dan Boswell, 4014 Ranie


      17        Road.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Boswell, you heard the


      19        conditions read into the record?


      20             MR. BOSWELL:  Yes, I did, and I agree with


      21        them.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      23             You may begin.


      24             MR. BOSWELL:  I'd just defer to -- to them,


      25        to their conditions, and I'm fine with that.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       2             Any questions for Mr. Boswell?


       3             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       5             Don't go far.


       6             Our next speaker is Bob Riley.


       7             Mr. Riley.


       8             MR. RILEY:  (Indicating.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  We can see you waving.


      10             Oh, I see.  I get it.


      11             All right.  Mr. Riley waives.


      12             Any other speakers to come before the


      13        committee?


      14             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  The public


      16        hearing is closed and we're back in committee.


      17             MR. HOLT:  Move the amendment.


      18             MR. BISHOP:  Second.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion on the amendment by


      20        Mr. Holt, second by Mr. Bishop.


      21             Discussion on the amendment?


      22             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  If none, all those in favor,


      24        say yes.


      25             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Yes.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Opposed, say no.


       2             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       4        adopted the amendment.


       5             MR. BOSWELL:  Thank you.


       6             MR. HOLT:  Move the bill as amended.


       7             MR. REDMAN:  Second.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion on the bill as


       9        amended by Mr. Holt, second by Mr. Redman.


      10             Discussion on the bill?


      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  If not, open the ballot,


      13        vote.


      14             (Committee ballot opened.)


      15             MR. CRESCIMBENI:  (Votes yea.)


      16             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      17             MR. BISHOP:  (Votes yea.)


      18             MR. D. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      19             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      20             MR. R. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      21             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      22             (Committee ballot closed.)


      23             MS. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nay.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      25        approved item 4, 2010-487.




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. BOSWELL:  Thank you.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       3             Item 5, 2010-499.


       4             Mr. Kelly.


       5             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


       6             To the Chair and committee members,


       7        ordinance 2010-499 is a request for a sign


       8        waiver to allow for internal illumination of a


       9        wall sign.


      10             The subject property is currently zoned


      11        PUD, which was approved back in 2006.  There is


      12        some history.  The department is recommending a


      13        denial of this application.


      14             The original rezoning of this property from


      15        2006 was rezoned from CO, commercial office, to


      16        planned unit development.  The planned unit


      17        development that got adopted incorporated the


      18        CRO zoning sign rights, which, at that time,


      19        limited the subject development basically to one


      20        monument sign and one wall sign, the monument


      21        sign being a 24-square-foot sign.


      22             Additionally, they had an option to go with


      23        wall signage in lieu of monument signage for the


      24        office building structures that were proposed on


      25        the site.  However, in light of the PUD, it was




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        probably shortsighted at that time to restrict


       2        themselves to CRO signage in the fact that the


       3        PUD approved commercial uses on the site, and


       4        specifically in parcel A, which was designed as


       5        approved on the PUD site plan as a little


       6        neighborhood village shopping center.


       7             The remaining parcels, B, C and D, were


       8        large, two-story office buildings that fronted


       9        on Hodges Boulevard.


      10             In 2008, a sign waiver request came in.


      11        It's ordinance 2008-854.  That request, at the


      12        time, was a sign waiver within the underlying


      13        PUD district to increase the amount of wall


      14        signage that would be permitted for both


      15        building A and buildings B, C and D.  The


      16        limitations on wall signage, again, deferring


      17        back to CRO at the time, limited it to one wall


      18        sign -- two wall signs per building,


      19        collectively, not exceeding 100 square feet for


      20        the larger office buildings and the one wall


      21        signage for building A.


      22             The request, then, basically came in to


      23        increase the amount of wall signage from one to


      24        nine signs for building A for the commercial


      25        parcel.  Then, additionally, a secondary




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        increase in the number of signs for the office


       2        parcels B, C and D.  That request was from two


       3        to seven.  That request was actually approved to


       4        allow for up to ten wall signs back in 2008,


       5        and, additionally, the nine wall signs for the


       6        commercial parcel were approved and increased as


       7        well at that time.


       8             The area of each of the wall signs


       9        basically was also increased, consistent with


      10        commercial wall signage standards, so it


      11        basically went from five square feet to


      12        10 percent of each occupancy frontage, which is


      13        substantially larger.


      14             Building A and the outcome of that sign was


      15        that the signage on building A would allow for


      16        external illumination; however, the office


      17        buildings, B, C and D, were not to be


      18        illuminated, not to have any illuminated


      19        signage.  And, additionally, they had a similar


      20        font size and letter type.  So it was consistent


      21        within the overall development scheme of that


      22        office -- those three office buildings.


      23             Additionally, building A was approved for


      24        two additional 30-square-foot monument signs


      25        that were 12 feet high.  So when we see the




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        amount of signage that -- at this point, that's


       2        been doubled and tripled and even in some cases


       3        more than that.


       4             The department, again, does not support the


       5        intensification and increase in sign rights to


       6        this extent, specifically for these buildings,


       7        B, C and D, that we originally requested the


       8        nonillumination and that the developer was


       9        agreeable to not having those signs illuminated


      10        on those office buildings.


      11             The department feels it's unnecessary and


      12        that it is not in keeping with the intent of the


      13        underlying PUD and zoning district as this is


      14        further away from the commercial areas down


      15        towards Butler Boulevard.


      16             In 2009, there was a similar PUD ordinance


      17        that was done to the property that was


      18        immediately north of this.  This is the Watson


      19        real estate office.  And that subject property


      20        was rezoned from CO to PUD.


      21             The department, at the time, recommended


      22        restrictions on signage, essentially limiting


      23        the existing 32-square-foot monument sign so


      24        that it would not be enlarged or intensified,


      25        and also restricting the wall signage to




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        40 square feet.  That was the department's


       2        recommendation.


       3             The City Council and the ultimate bill was


       4        approved to double, again, the monument signage


       5        from 32 square feet to 64 square feet within the


       6        existing frame of the sign, and, additionally,


       7        the wall signage was increased from 40 square


       8        feet to 140 square feet.


       9             So, over time, we're seeing the


      10        commercialization and the deterioration of this


      11        corridor for primarily office uses which detract


      12        from the residential aesthetics and the


      13        character of the area.


      14             The department finds that this request,


      15        again, is not consistent with contiguous signage


      16        and zoning and the general character of the


      17        area.  We do find that it would have a negative


      18        aesthetic effect on the surrounding properties.


      19             Again, we find that it would be detrimental


      20        to the public welfare, clearly not have this


      21        hierarchy of signage, and that the request is --


      22        there's really no compelling public interest at


      23        this time to support this request and,


      24        therefore, the department is recommending


      25        denial.




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Kelly.


       2             Any questions from the committee?


       3             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none,


       5        this is a quasi-judicial matter, and I'm going


       6        to declare ex-parte communication.  I had a


       7        meeting yesterday with Bert Watson and Michelle


       8        Horning to talk about this matter, and also


       9        received a memo from Councilman Clark today.


      10             Mr. Reingold, is this ex-parte on this


      11        subject (indicating)?  It's -- I'm going to


      12        submit it just for the record to play it safe.


      13             MR. REINGOLD:  Yeah, please do.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Clark -- I think it went


      15        to all committee members.  I'll submit it for


      16        all of us.


      17             Anyone else have any ex-parte disclosures?


      18             Mr. Bishop.


      19             MR. BISHOP:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      20             I also had ex-parte communications with


      21        Mr. Watson and the applicant.  It was one day


      22        last week.


      23             Thank you.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Bishop.


      25             Anyone else?




        Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no one


       3        the --


       4             Mr. Redman.  Sorry.


       5             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


       6             I had ex-parte communication with


       7        Mr. Watson and the applicant last week as well.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you, sir.


       9             If that concludes the discloses, we have a


      10        public hearing scheduled this evening.


      11             The public hearing is open.  I have two


      12        speaker cards, Michelle Horning and Stuart


      13        Winfree it looks like.


      14             Ms. Horning.


      15             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  You want to go the other


      17        way?


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  No.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  You want to start?


      20             Okay.


      21             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Michelle Horning, 9930


      22        Margate Hills Road, Jacksonville, Florida


      23        32256.


      24             First of all, I'm going to show you two


      25        pictures of the current building.  We're at the




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        corner of JTB and Hodges Boulevard.  This is the


       2        two buildings (indicating).


       3             To the south side of us is the Publix and


       4        then the Walgreens, and to the north side is the


       5        Watson building.  This view here that you're


       6        seeing is the view from our building looking


       7        across the street into the neighborhood.  And


       8        since some of those initial requests were made,


       9        the trees have really matured.  And this is an


      10        evening shot and the trees have really closed


      11        that apartment complex across the street.


      12             There's a real discrepancy on illumination


      13        because, when you think of illumination, we're


      14        not asking for that bright Dick's sign, and


      15        we're not asking for the external illumination.


      16        What we're actually asking for is that subtle


      17        lighting behind the Banana Republic sign to the


      18        left if you're looking at that picture.


      19             These are examples of what the building


      20        would look like.  We're asking for that signage


      21        on the marquis sign only.  I'm sorry.  We're


      22        asking for an illuminated sign on the marquis


      23        sign only.  We're not asking for a monumental


      24        sign, and we just want an opportunity to be seen


      25        on that road because it does increase our




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        business to be seen by people driving by at


       2        night, on their way home from work, and saying,


       3        yes, A1A Family Eye Care is now at this


       4        location.


       5             And as a side note, if this lot right next


       6        to us -- that is -- shares the same parking lot,


       7        is fully commercial and will -- there's a


       8        proposed possible Dunkin Donuts there and will


       9        have full signage.


      10             Thank you.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Ms. Horning.


      12             Does anyone have any questions of the


      13        speaker?


      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no one,


      16        Mr. Winfree.


      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      19             My name is Stuart Winfree, 3146 Misty Creek


      20        Lane, 32216.


      21             We are the owners of the biggest units in


      22        each one of these buildings.  And, as such,


      23        we're talking about the signature signage on the


      24        top of the building.


      25             I'd like to take just a moment to talk a




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        little bit more about it because the ordinance


       2        contemplates front lighting, which are the


       3        spotlight on the Banana Republic in the middle,


       4        but rear lighting being, like she mentioned, a


       5        show-through lighting, like on the Dick's sign


       6        and also the Watson building that is right next


       7        to ours.


       8             What we are looking for is -- is, like we


       9        said earlier, a very subtle type of


      10        backlighting, which you can see on the


      11        Banana Republic there.


      12             We were originally told that the building


      13        was zoned for the signage and the lighting by


      14        the developer, which is not the council's


      15        issue.  But they misfiled the PUD, as Mr. Kelly


      16        said, and did not have nearly the signage that


      17        they thought they did in the PUD.  That's why


      18        they amended the PUD and they did it very


      19        rapidly and didn't address the lighting on the


      20        monument signing -- not the monument, excuse me,


      21        the signature signage.


      22             So all we're looking for is -- not for the


      23        entire building, but just this very top


      24        curvature on top of the building with some


      25        pretty low-level lighting, as we saw, as I




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        showed you, on that.


       2             So that's what we're looking for.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Winfree.


       4             Any questions from the committee?


       5             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing none,


       7        anyone else care to address the committee?


       8             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no one, the public


      10        hearing is closed, and you-all just stand by in


      11        case there's a question.  Don't go too far away.


      12             All right.  We're back in committee.  I had


      13        a question through the Chair to Mr. Kelly.


      14             Mr. Kelly, this just grants the waiver for


      15        what, those -- the two signs on the -- on the


      16        arches of the two buildings; is that -- am I


      17        following along correctly?


      18             MR. KELLY:  That is what, I guess, they


      19        referred to as the signature signs, which would


      20        be the two -- correct, the two signs at the tops


      21        of both buildings B and C.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, is that -- I mean,


      23        when you say "signature signs," I mean, is that


      24        going to be -- is that defined well enough to


      25        prevent any confusion in the future?




         Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I guess my concern comes from the adjacent


       2        tenants to the signature sign.  I mean, would


       3        that -- would this include their ability to


       4        backlight or how do you describe it?  It's


       5        allowing for internal lighting of a wall sign?


       6             MR. KELLY:  Well, the way, I guess, the


       7        application -- it was specific to one sign, the


       8        way I read it.  I mean, if not, then it's


       9        applicable to all the wall signage on the


      10        building.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  So if we approve this, all


      12        the wall signs can -- I'm sorry.


      13             MR. KELLY:  All of the wall signage could


      14        be internally illuminated.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  And is there a


      16        difference between internal -- internally


      17        illuminated and what was being described as


      18        backlighting?


      19             MR. KELLY:  The department's position on


      20        the backlighting, while it's a lesser intensity,


      21        in some respects, it is still projecting the


      22        light through a -- I guess a -- the letter