1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
6 Proceedings held on Wednesday, June 2,
7 2010, commencing at 5:05 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
13 RAY HOLT, Chair.
WARREN JONES, Vice Chair.
14 REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
DANIEL DAVIS, Committee Member.
15 JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
17 ALSO PRESENT:
18 JOHN CRESCIMBENI, City Council Member.
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
19 SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
20 STEVE ROHAN, Office of General Counsel.
JASON GABRIEL, Office of General Counsel.
21 DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.
RICK CAMPBELL, Research Assistant.
22 MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.
23 SHARONDA DAVIS, Legislative Assistant.
24 - - -
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 June 2, 2010 5:05 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, everybody. I
5 think we're about ready to start.
6 I don't think we're going to be too
7 terribly long tonight. We've got a couple of
8 issues that will probably have some discussion,
9 but not too many.
10 MR. BROWN: (Inaudible.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Brown was
12 just telling me that he's going to have to leave
13 for a little bit, but we've got Mr. Davis here,
14 so we should still be good. Nobody is allowed
15 to go to the bathroom when Mr. Brown leaves.
16 All right. Well, everybody, let's --
17 council members, let's start on page 2. We
18 won't even do our introductions, just look at
19 our nameplates.
20 Item 1 is deferred.
21 Item 2, there is a sub.
22 MR. JONES: Move the sub.
23 MR. REDMAN: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on the
1 We do a voice vote on that?
2 MS. LAHMEUR: Yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the sub
4 signify by saying aye.
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: The sub is approved.
7 We need a motion to rerefer.
8 MR. JONES: Move the sub -- move to rerefer
9 the sub.
10 MR. REDMAN: Second.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second to rerefer
12 to LUZ.
13 Please open the ballot.
14 (Committee ballot opened.)
15 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
19 (Committee ballot closed.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
22 Mr. Davis.
23 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
25 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nays.
1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
2 subbed and rereferred 2009-864.
3 Page 3, item number 3, 2010-253. We will
4 open the public hearing.
5 Did we want to introduce this and give some
6 more details before we start taking speakers,
7 Mr. Kelly?
8 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
9 To the Chair and members of the committee,
10 ordinance 2010-253 seeks to amend both
11 Chapter 13 of Section 656, the Zoning Code, and
12 Chapter 741 dealing with the zero tolerance for
13 litter. The bill authorizes temporary
14 directional real estate signs during the
15 weekends in the public right-of-way. The signs
16 are limited from 3 p.m. on Friday afternoon
17 until 3 p.m. on Sunday afternoon.
18 All of the staff's recommended conditions
19 regarding the placement and the location of the
20 signs have been basically incorporated into this
21 substituted bill that's in front of you tonight,
22 so we are confident that the location and the
23 placement of the signs will not result in any
24 detriment to the visual aesthetics or public
25 safety at all.
1 Additionally, the bill creates definitions
2 for temporary election signs as well as
3 definitions for a free expression sign. The
4 free expression signage functions to communicate
5 views on matters of public policy or any other
6 noncommercial message. However, a free
7 expression sign may also communicate a
8 commercial message in a commercial district.
9 The temporary election signs and free expression
10 signs are permitted on private property only and
11 are required to be at least 10 feet set back
12 from the right-of-way.
13 The additional part of this legislation is
14 that we introduced a definition for what's
15 called a snipe sign. Those are the signs you
16 typically see in the medians and in the
17 right-of-ways along the roadways, and -- and
18 that is basically now considered to be abandoned
19 property for -- in terms of the City's view of
20 these. And, as such, it's considered litter and
21 therefore subject to fines. For each snipe sign
22 offense, that ranges from $50 up to $350 per
24 (Dr. Gaffney enters the proceedings.)
25 MR. KELLY: What those fines do is
1 basically effectuate the zero tolerance on
2 litter law that's currently on the books that
3 this is basically implementing, and what it
4 does, it takes monies that are collected as a
5 result of citations issued on the snipe signs to
6 go towards -- 70 percent towards the maintenance
7 of the bus shelters within the JTA bus routes to
8 keep them maintained and free of litter. That
9 goes into a sub account, additionally, to
10 conduct public awareness and education programs
11 to advance the zero tolerance for litter
13 MR. DAVIS: Can I --
14 MR. KELLY: Yes, sir.
15 MR. DAVIS: (Inaudible.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Go ahead.
17 MR. DAVIS: I think that -- a little bit of
18 clarification on this. And I think the chairman
19 mentioned this during a noticed meeting, but
20 the -- the idea of the permit fee for the real
21 estate directional sign, that's where we would
22 generate our money to go out with City folk and
23 pick up signs and litter that would litter up
24 the right-of-way. Although we would have the
25 citizen group that would be able -- the fine
Diane M. Tropia,
1 situation is totally different than the permit
2 situation, so -- I know that there was some
3 concern about splitting up the monies from the
4 fine to handle the JTA issues, but I think that
5 we're talking apples and oranges between the
6 permit revenue and the fine revenue.
7 So I just wanted to be real clear that
8 that's going to stay, and I would even -- when
9 we get into the nuts and bolts of this, take
10 that permit money and us capture it and
11 designate it for that purpose, if -- just to
12 make sure it doesn't get lost somewhere in the
13 general budget, so --
14 Sorry about that, Mr. Kelly.
15 MR. KELLY: The bill also provides for a
16 severability clause so that -- should any
17 portion of the legislation be determined to be
18 unconstitutional, that specific portion would be
19 struck only and all other -- all other
20 components of the bill would still remain.
21 The Planning Commission voted -- the
22 department is recommending a straight approval.
23 This did go to Planning Commission. It was
24 discussed for some time. There was two
25 amendments offered up at the Planning
1 Commission. I can read those into the record.
2 One deals specifically with business owners that
3 are adversely impacted on any kind of
4 right-of-way or road improvement project where
5 there's a -- temporary construction that's
6 occurring and allowing some signage for them --
7 directional signage for business owners in those
8 situations when they're not already included as
9 part of a maintenance of traffic plan for the
10 road improvement project.
11 Additionally, there was an amendment
12 basically specifying that the -- 70 percent of
13 the funds derived from the fines basically be
14 withheld from the JTA maintenance program and
15 put into the general fund until such time that
16 the JTA basically reverses the ordinance
17 2009-401 bill and basically makes the bus
18 shelter signage illegal up until that point.
19 That's the effect of it. I can read it
20 into the -- into the record.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis.
22 MR. DAVIS: I would just say -- and I think
23 that Mr. Kelly is just relaying information. I
24 would like to take these amendments up
25 separately. One of them I believe has merit,
Diane M. Tropia,
1 the other I think there will probably be some
2 discussion over, so --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, we'll do that after
4 the public hearing.
5 MR. DAVIS: Okay.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that all you had,
7 Mr. Kelly?
8 MR. KELLY: Yes, that's it.
9 The -- again, this is primarily the real
10 estate directional signs during the weekend,
11 which the department supports on a temporary
12 basis. The justification for this was -- in the
13 bill is also all specified based on the housing
14 crisis and the issues surviving -- or
15 surrounding the cost of housing and the
16 appreciation, and so there's a direct
17 correlation there to -- to a need that's
18 temporary in nature. That also has a sunset
19 provision, so the department and -- in our
20 discussions with the Office of General Counsel
21 is confident that this is a good bill.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, could you explain
23 to us the piece having to do with the voluntary
24 enforcement? I'd like for everybody to get to
25 hear that.
1 MR. KELLY: (Inaudible.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: The voluntary force that --
3 similar to our handicapped traffic --
4 handicapped space enforcement that Mr. Brinton
5 was telling us about.
6 MR. KELLY: The -- in terms of -- and that
7 I'm not that familiar with. It -- as part of
8 this legislation, the -- I know in terms of the
9 enforcement with the snipe signs in the
10 right-of-way and that there's groups that go
11 around and -- volunteer groups that go out and
12 pick up those signs.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, I'm sorry. I
14 thought from our agenda meeting that this was
15 actually part of the bill.
16 MR. DAVIS: It is.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brinton, you're giving a
18 familiar nod. Are you able to address that when
19 your time comes up to speak?
20 MR. BRINTON: I will be able to, yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Excellent. That's
22 fine. That's all I needed to know.
23 Mr. Jones wanted to ask a question.
24 MR. JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 Through the Chair to Mr. Kelly, the -- two
1 questions. Under the real estate signs, you're
2 talking about the ones that are in the
3 right-of-way, not the ones on private property?
4 MR. KELLY: Correct. Those would be
5 directional real estate signs in the
6 right-of-way directing them to a model home, a
7 subdivision, or an open house situation.
8 MR. JONES: Okay. There's a permit --
9 there will be a permit required to get -- to
10 have those signs placed in the right-of-way?
11 MR. KELLY: Correct. It's a onetime permit
12 fee of $100, valid for one year.
13 MR. JONES: Is that per company or how does
14 that --
15 MR. KELLY: It's per sign.
16 MR. JONES: Per sign.
17 So if I put a directional sign out for a
18 house on
19 one on
20 That permit covers that same sign?
21 MR. KELLY: The sign is permitted at the
22 location that's --
23 MR. JONES: So it's $100 per location?
24 MR. KELLY: Correct. So that -- that's a
25 permanent location for those hours during the
1 weekends for that year.
2 MR. JONES: That would work with a
3 subdivision. It wouldn't work with an open
4 house because, I mean, you do an open house once
5 and then -- you use it once or twice and then
6 you're done with the open house.
7 Mr. Davis, you wanted to --
8 MR. DAVIS: Through the Chair, if that's
9 okay --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
11 MR. DAVIS: -- I believe it would because
12 it would still be a mile from the location that
13 you're -- the directional signage is sending
14 someone to, whether it's an open house that
15 sells and then you move to another open house.
16 And I guess if it's unclear about that, my
17 thoughts would be -- I would be fine with -- I
18 didn't want it to be five miles away. It needed
19 to be close to the location. But my assumption
20 was that -- if somebody had a -- if you had an
21 open house on
22 that house and you had another open house on
23 Beach, as long as it was a mile from that
24 location you would be able to use that same
1 MR. JONES: Okay. But according to
2 Mr. Kelly that's not the case. The site, the
3 location is the permitted -- not the number of
4 signs, just --
5 (Simultaneous speaking.)
6 MR. KELLY: I mean, I wouldn't be opposed
7 to it being relocated. I think it's permitted
8 initially on the location that it's at. And if
9 that location is no longer needed, they can
10 probably transfer that sign provided it's at a
11 location that meets all the locational criteria
12 as well, which is --
13 MR. JONES: Is there a cost to transfer the
15 MR. KELLY: We would be okay with that --
16 MR. JONES: Okay.
17 MR. KELLY: -- an administrative --
18 MR. JONES: So you could pay for the sign,
19 the permit for one year, and then you could
20 relocate -- transfer that location?
21 MR. KELLY: That would be acceptable.
22 MR. JONES: Okay.
23 MR. DAVIS: Do you need clarification on
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
1 MR. GABRIEL: Jason Gabriel here.
2 Through the Chair to the commission -- or
3 to the committee, I think Councilman Davis is
4 correct, that the temporary directional real
5 estate sign could be within one mile as long as
6 it's within a hundred -- or outside of a hundred
7 foot from another sign. So that's the way it
8 reads right now.
9 MR. JONES: I think that answered my -- I
10 was just concerned about the cost of permitting
11 a sign if you're doing an open house because you
12 do an open house this weekend at one location,
13 next weekend you may be at another, and you have
14 to get a permit -- each time you do an open
15 house, you'd have -- and wanted directional
16 signs, there would be a $100 cost if you could
17 not transfer those signs.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that answer your
20 MR. JONES: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
22 Mr. Redman.
23 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 Do I understand that there would not be a
25 fee for the real estate sign to go in a yard or
1 in front of the house?
2 MR. KELLY: (Off microphone.)
3 MR. REDMAN: What about a sale of a -- by
4 owner, if they wanted to put a directional sign,
5 would they be able to get a directional sign by
6 paying the fee?
7 MR. KELLY: The individual real estate
8 signs on private property would not be subject
9 to this same criteria. That's a separate
10 provision under Part 13. It's dealt with
11 separately. So you could have a real estate
12 sign. As part of the commercial and
13 noncommercial free speech, it would apply in
14 those circumstances as well, but you can have a
15 real estate sign regardless.
16 MR. REDMAN: Okay. But what about if a
17 person wanted to sell the house themself, could
18 they have a directional sign? Would they be
19 able to get a directional sign the same way a
20 realtor would? I get a fee -- I pay fee and --
21 MR. KELLY: Yes. Somebody would have the
22 same ability to obtain a permit to get an
23 off-site directional sign to their house so long
24 as it met that -- the same spacing and distance
1 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
3 All right. No further questions for
4 Mr. Kelly about his description?
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll go on to
7 our speakers. The first speaker I have is
8 Ms. Donna Troup, followed by Curtis Hart,
9 followed by Bill Brinton.
10 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Hi, Mr. Troup. If you
12 could --
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening, everybody.
14 My name is Donna Troup. I'm with One Stop
15 Thrift Shop at
16 Hill area.
17 I'm opposing a part of this ordinance
18 because 3 p.m. Friday evening to 3 p.m. Sunday
19 evening is not going to benefit small business
20 owners, period, because I did a survey of 500
21 small business owners, and my survey shows that
22 half of them is closed, or more, in the city on
23 Sunday. So how is the business owners going to
24 make a living in this town, especially small
25 business owners? We are your backbone of the
1 city. We're the ones who keep people employed.
2 We train people to go to better jobs. Then what
3 are you going to do?
4 Also, the 70 percent going to JTA, my
5 recommendations at this time is that 25 percent
6 of the fine monies for renting the building for
7 meetings on crime prevention in each district in
8 Duval County once a month to -- to let the
9 people in the districts know what they can do
10 about crime in their areas. That needs to be
11 enforced more and more, not just having the
12 weekend directional signs, but have these
13 fines -- anybody who's got -- like Clear Wire
14 out there on the corner of the street, that's on
15 city right-of-way, that's a snipe sign. Trump
16 and Stump service, that's a snipe sign. I see
17 that sign all over town. It's an orange sign.
18 I've called it in. You think the City is doing
19 anything about it right now? I don't think so.
20 I haven't seen one sign -- one of those come
21 down yet, not one.
22 Twenty-five percent of the fine monies --
23 of the meetings educating the -- the business in
24 Duval County about violations committed on the
25 first offense. Use that money also. When a
1 person goes out to cite somebody on the first
2 offense, let them sit there and explain -- get
3 them an ordinance of the signage ordinances and
4 let -- educate them on that. Use that money for
5 that, for making copies of the signage ordinance
6 and hand that to the business owner.
7 Fifty percent of the fine monies for hiring
8 more police officers, fire and rescue
9 employees. The City wants to get rid of some of
10 our police officers. They also want to get rid
11 of the fire and rescue people. Well, they are
12 needed in the city to keep the crime down, to
13 help with medical. We need -- they need more
14 funds to do that, but now as it stands two of
15 the fire stations are being closed. Fire
16 engines are being shut down. Where are those
17 employees going? Unemployment. That's
18 40 people unemployed.
19 And I'm still asking for answers. Why are
20 businesses closing? Why is the unemployment
21 rate so high? Why is the crime rate so high?
22 It's because the City of
23 want to listen to us small business owners.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Troup.
1 Mr. Brown.
2 MR. BROWN: Okay. Through the Chair --
3 ma'am, if I could have you come back.
4 (Ms. Troup approaches the podium.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, ma'am.
6 MS. TROUP: Yes, sir.
7 MR. BROWN: And I do appreciate your
8 comments, we welcome them. And I do really have
9 a sincere appreciation for recommendations that,
10 you know, folks bring forward when they do have
12 Now, you did make recommendations for the
13 percentages and I was going to ask you about
14 ShAdCo meetings. Are you currently attending or
15 a member of ShAdCo?
16 MS. TROUP: I didn't know anything about
18 MR. BROWN: Well, I'll talk with you about
19 that, but that -- that's -- probably is going to
20 answer part of your concerns in terms of
21 information in the community about crime, so I
22 would make sure that we give that information to
24 But the second thing is -- you talked about
25 the operations, Friday 3 p.m. to Sunday 3 p.m.
1 not being -- it's not going to meet the needs of
2 the local business folks. Did you have a
3 recommendation? Because I didn't hear you give
4 a recommendation.
5 MS. TROUP: Yeah. I've already e-mailed
6 all the City Council members previously.
7 MR. BROWN: Can you tell me --
8 MS. TROUP: Nine to six -- nine to six --
9 9 a.m. to 6 p.m., seven days a week, signs that
10 can be put on the City right-of-way and taken
11 out -- off at 6 p.m. in the evening.
12 MR. BROWN: Okay. Now, I was dealing
13 primarily with the Friday 3 p.m. to Sunday --
14 MS. TROUP: Okay. That's what --
15 (Simultaneous speaking.)
16 MR. BROWN: You didn't have any
17 recommendations --
18 MS. TROUP: That's what I'm saying on
19 that. The hours need to be changed to seven
20 days a week. It needs to be -- like with my
21 business, I've lost 95 percent of my revenue
22 because I can't put my signs out.
23 I talked to another business owner today.
24 They got fined because they're losing money.
25 They may -- they're closing down, another thrift
1 store in this town. They've had to lay five
2 people off. Now, what does that tell you?
3 Signage is important.
4 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
5 I really -- I was following everything that
6 you were talking about. It was just that -- it
7 seemed to be reasonable -- and I didn't do this
8 survey or study that you did -- from Friday
9 3 p.m. to Sunday 3 p.m., it just seemed like we
10 were meeting the needs. And if you were going
11 to tell me that, you know, Friday 3 p.m. until
12 Sunday at 5:00 or something like that, then --
13 you know, I thought maybe we can, you know, come
14 up with a happy medium, but we're actually
15 changing the whole format. You know, we're
16 going from --
17 MR. KELLY: (Indicating.)
18 MR. BROWN: Go ahead.
19 MR. KELLY: There's an amendment that --
20 the Planning Commission debated this for some
21 time, and the first condition was an amendment
22 when there was a business owner with an
23 occupational license that is encumbered or
24 hindered by any governmental agency,
25 improvements, and allowing them to place their
2 I think what she's talking about is a
3 situation that would just allow any number of
4 off-site signs by right any time, 24/7, and
5 that's something that is -- you know, we're
6 wholeheartedly against in the department.
7 When it's limited in scope and there's good
8 justification for it, that's another situation,
9 and that's the way we're dealing with it through
10 this bill.
11 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
12 Thank you, ma'am.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis, did you still
14 have something?
15 MR. DAVIS: Yeah. Ms. Troup, I was going
16 to ask you a question real quick.
17 MS. TROUP: Okay. Who is that?
18 MR. DAVIS: Daniel Davis, right here.
19 MS. TROUP: I hear voices. I don't see
21 MR. DAVIS: You know, you've made a couple
22 of comments about us not looking out for small
23 business, and it really is the only reason we
24 are writing this legislation, to be honest with
1 And I think that we -- this substitute has
2 made a provision that allows small business
3 owners, for example, that are having a sale at a
4 thrift shop on Friday to be able to put their
5 sign out. And they can have anything they want
6 to say in a commercial area on that sign saying,
7 you know, you can get a whole -- whatever it is
8 for $1.99. I don't know what your sales might
9 be, but we're trying to give you those
10 opportunities. We're trying to create and
11 balance, at the same time, the aesthetics that
12 many citizens want to make sure that we keep our
13 right-of-ways cleaned up.
14 So I'm really sorry if this doesn't make
15 you happy, where you want to be, but we're
16 really trying to do our best to help small
17 business in this situation. And the truth is,
18 that's the only reason I wrote this legislation,
19 is to help small businesses who are trying to
20 put food on the table.
21 So we can't always have everything exactly
22 the way we want it, but I just wanted to make
23 sure -- are you aware that you're going to be
24 able to place a sign on your piece of property
25 now that will say that when before you couldn't?
1 MS. TROUP: Come out to my store, like I've
2 asked you five times, and you'll see where I
3 can't --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, ma'am.
5 MS. TROUP: People cannot see it from
7 MR. DAVIS: Okay. Well, I'm trying to help
8 you out, and I'm sorry that we can't get there.
9 MS. TROUP: Well, the thing about it is --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am --
11 MS. TROUP: I know my time is up, but I
12 want to finish with Mr. Davis --
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. But he didn't ask you
14 another question, ma'am.
15 MS. TROUP: -- to help with small
16 business --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones has a question for
19 MS. TROUP: Yes.
20 MR. JONES: Thank you.
21 Ms. Troup -- through the Chair to
22 Ms. Troup, it's my understanding that there's
23 construction on
24 MS. TROUP: Correct.
25 MR. JONES: So you would be eligible for a
1 directional sign while the construction is
2 ongoing on
3 MS. TROUP: Without a permit fee?
4 MR. JONES: It's my understanding --
5 through the Chair to Mr. Kelly, would that
6 require a permit fee, because of the
8 MR. KELLY: There was no reference to
9 that. I mean, typically -- like a road widening
10 or drainage project, improvement project would
11 require a maintenance of traffic plan. And
12 usually as part of those MOT plans the signage
13 for the businesses are -- are out there in the
14 right-of-way. That is not -- that's fairly
15 common. It doesn't happen all the time,
17 I would -- you know, there's no mention of
18 any fee and we would not, you know, basically
19 require any kind of permit fee at this point
20 unless there's an amendment made.
21 MR. JONES: Okay. Through the Chair to
22 Mr. Kelly, just to clear this up, if she wanted
23 to put an additional sign out, could she do that
24 without a permit or would that require a
1 MR. KELLY: On her property, she could do a
2 commercial speech sign for free as long as it
3 met the 10-foot setback on a commercial piece of
4 property. So she could have one sign on her
5 property by right, in addition to her permitted
6 sign for the business, whether that be a
7 monument sign, a pylon sign.
8 MR. JONES: Do you have -- what you're
9 talking about, Ms. Troup, is a sign on the
11 MS. TROUP: Correct.
12 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you.
13 MS. TROUP: That's what I'm --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
15 Mr. Crescimbeni.
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 Through the chair to Ms. Troup, I've got --
18 I've received your e-mails, but refresh my
19 memory. You've had your business for how long?
20 MS. TROUP: We have been open now 18
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Eighteen months.
23 Are you a -- is it a thrift store that's a
24 for-profit or not-for-profit? I mean, do you
25 serve a not-for-profit or --
1 MS. TROUP: I own the business.
2 MR. CRESCIMBENI: You own the business.
3 MS. TROUP: I own it.
4 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And how many signs did
5 you typically put out?
6 MS. TROUP: I put one out
8 Kangaroo place, to let people know that the
9 thrift store is down that way, off of
10 then I put one on
11 then I put one at the other gate from the other
12 side on
13 know that there's a thrift store in our area.
14 That's three signs, but I also had an
15 additional sign on
16 around the curb, by the end of my fence, by the
17 Dreamette, to let people know, hey, this is the
18 way into the -- because we are behind the
19 Dreamette ice cream building and we are a blind
20 spot to everybody from
21 MR. CRESCIMBENI: So you put four signs
23 MS. TROUP: What was that?
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Is that four signs,
1 MS. TROUP: Four signs.
2 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And how big were the
4 MS. TROUP: Well, I brought one of them in
5 and I asked y'all what is wrong with my sign.
6 That's one of them. And then I had one that
7 goes like this (indicating), about the same size
8 that is chained to my fence.
9 MR. CRESCIMBENI: So -- and you've had that
10 the entire time you've operated your business
11 for the 18 months?
12 MS. TROUP: Yes.
13 MR. CRESCIMBENI: And then when did the
14 road construction start?
15 MS. TROUP: It started about four months
16 ago on
18 that gate to let the people across the street to
19 walk across because, hello, how are you doing?
20 Big old hole down there. It's very unsafe
21 there. This construction company leaves that
22 area unprotected for small kids in that area
23 that can fall and hurt themselves very
24 seriously. That's another issue I'm going to be
25 addressing later on.
1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Okay. Thank you for the
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Crescimbeni.
4 No other questions. Thank you, ma'am.
5 MS. TROUP: Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hart.
7 (Mr. Hart approaches the podium.)
8 MR. HART: Curtis Hart,
9 I just -- I didn't want to say anything
10 except that I support the bill.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
12 No questions for Mr. Hart.
13 Mr. Brinton.
14 (Mr. Brinton approaches the podium.)
15 MR. BRINTON: Like Mr. Hart, I also support
16 the bill, and I'd like to just address a couple
17 of amendments.
18 There was some discussion with
19 Mr. Goldsbury about whose department or division
20 would deal with the weekend real estate
21 directional signs, and I believe the -- after
22 further discussion among division folks, is that
23 in Section 4, the Development Services Division
24 be replaced by the Building Inspection
25 Division. And it's my understanding -- and the
1 Office of General Counsel can confirm this --
2 that that is acceptable to all of the government
3 individuals involved, and Mr. Rohan can confirm
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Rohan.
6 MR. ROHAN: That's my understanding.
7 MR. BRINTON: Okay. In connection with the
8 Planning Commission's recommendation from last
9 week, I disagree with the -- the -- limiting
10 monies dealing with keeping bus stops and bus
11 shelter areas clean. I don't want to get into a
12 tit for tat about, unless you do this, we're not
13 going to provide funds to keep public property
14 clean, so I think --
15 I understand why the Planning Commission
16 did that, because of their position last year,
17 but I don't think that's an appropriate way
18 to -- that's not an appropriate amendment for
19 this bill. And as an author of the litter bill
20 from 2004, I can tell you that that bill was
21 written with the intent to keep the bus stops
22 and bus shelter areas litter free and
23 well-maintained, and this provides a mechanism
24 to do that with fines for litter. Litter fines
25 should go to cleaning up litter. It shouldn't
1 go to anything else, and I think the way it's in
2 the bill now is exactly the way it should be.
3 As to the first recommendation of the
4 Planning Commission, which I think deals with a
5 subject that council -- my time is almost up --
6 Councilman Redman and Councilman Crescimbeni and
7 Mr. Davis and others have inquired about, is
8 what happens when a business is encumbered
9 because of government action. And as Mr. Davis
10 pointed out -- Councilman Davis, is -- what this
11 bill is overall doing is providing some
12 flexibility, such as allowing a business owner
13 to have an additional sign in connection with
14 their already-permitted signage to say either
15 save the whales or a special today on widgets,
16 but the recommendation of the Planning
17 Commission, I think, is a good one to provide
18 additional flexibility where you have a business
19 that is cut off or otherwise hindered in
20 connection with the normal flow of traffic. And
21 there does need to be flexibility there. That
22 should probably go in as a new section,
23 656.1320, and it would be Section 14 of the
24 bill, moving Section 14 of the bill now to
25 Section 15, and the language can be adopted with
1 the title --
2 MR. DAVIS: Can I ask (inaudible) --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah.
4 Mr. Brinton, go ahead and continue and
5 finish that point.
6 MR. BRINTON: Okay. The title should be
7 656.1320, directional signs when a business is
8 hindered by a government agency. And to clarify
9 that no fees are involved, at the end of that
10 paragraph the sentence "No fee shall be
11 required" should be added, and there should be a
12 whereas clause added to the legislation that
13 says, "Whereas, the council finds and determines
14 that there should be flexibility for directional
15 signage where a business has been encumbered or
16 hindered by a government agency."
17 So with that whereas clause, with that
18 provision being titled as I've stated, and
19 moving the section numbers around from -- this
20 will be a new 14 -- we're moving 14 to 15 -- I
21 think you're in a good posture to move this bill
23 And, again, it does provide flexibility to
24 businesses. That is not in the current code.
25 It provides flexibility dealing with election
1 signs, political signs. It provides flexibility
2 to have a free expression sign. It's going to
3 help clean up
4 And I think somebody wanted to have further
5 clarification about the volunteers?
6 THE CHAIRMAN: I did, but go ahead,
7 Mr. Davis. Go ahead and get your question
8 first, then I'll --
9 MR. DAVIS: That was the question. I was
10 going to ask if he could clarify the idea that
11 parallels how we handle the handicapped
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
14 MR. BRINTON: This provides an additional
15 tool for this administration or any
16 administration to replicate what we're doing
17 with handicapped parking violations by having
18 people that are trained and certified to issue
19 tickets for violations of this portion of the
21 The fine mechanism here is not the
22 sledgehammer or heavy hand that I've heard
23 repeated complaints about, but it's a very
24 modest fine starting out at $50 rather than -- I
25 think people have been getting fined at 350 and
1 then multiple fines on the same day for the same
3 So we're providing a modest fine structure
4 that can be enforced today by code enforcement
5 officers with a lot less of a heavy hand. We
6 provide an opportunity to have training and
7 certification for -- I know Councilman Joost is
8 certified to issue tickets for handicapped
9 parking. Maybe Mr. Davis and Mr. Crescimbeni or
10 others could be certified to deal with this
11 problem where you have signs nailed up to a
12 telephone pole 12 feet high.
13 MR. DAVIS: As long as I get a badge, I
14 will do that.
15 MR. BRINTON: We won't let you carry a gun,
16 I'm sure. You probably already do.
17 So that -- I hope that's a sufficient
19 This program is a little bit different than
20 St. Pete, but it's awfully similar. And what
21 I've tried to do is model this program after
22 St. Pete, but do something that is unique to
24 And I think, overall, with providing
25 flexibility for businesses; dealing with some
1 legal issues that are being addressed in this
2 ordinance, specifically allowing election signs,
3 for example; and then fine-tuning the litter --
4 zero tolerance for litter code, we're in a
5 position to make a big difference in this city.
6 And I hope everyone will join as a
7 cosponsor of this bill. I know Mr. Hart and I
8 would both like that. It's been a pleasure
9 working with the development community in trying
10 to put together -- craft a good bill.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions for
12 Mr. Brinton?
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, we'll close the
15 public hearing.
16 Did you have one, Mr. Jones?
17 MR. JONES: With the -- through the Chair
18 to Mr. Brinton, I appreciate your knowledge and
19 your expertise.
20 Now we can get a permit to put our election
21 signs on the right-of-way?
22 MR. BRINTON: No. No permit, no fee.
23 And let me make sure you understand. There
24 is no -- in the code as is written today -- and
25 I think Mr. Gabriel can confirm this -- if you
1 pay $100, whether you're a private homeowner on
2 a for sale sign or you're a business, that $100
3 for one year stays with that usage of the sign
4 wherever it goes. It's not for a specific
5 location. It is just that sign has to meet the
6 criteria of the one-mile spacing and the other
7 criteria if it's used out in the locations where
8 it's -- where it can be used under this code
10 Also, the code cannot and does not trump
11 state law because state law has very specific
12 provisions dealing with the state highway
13 system. So that -- snipe signs, litter cannot
14 be in the state highway right-of-way no matter
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Anybody have any other
18 questions for Mr. Brinton?
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
21 We'll close the public hearing.
22 And do we have any discussion? Well, we'll
23 go ahead -- we need to go ahead and move the
24 amendment, I assume.
25 DR. GAFFNEY: Move the amendment.
1 MR. BROWN: Second.
2 MR. DAVIS: (Inaudible.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have the amendment
4 that was described by Mr. Kelly. I don't think
5 we have moved anything from the recommendations
6 of the Planning Commission.
7 MR. KELLY: I can read them in for the
8 record --
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead and read --
10 MR. KELLY: -- as proposed.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: -- read what we've got and
12 then there might be others added.
13 MR. KELLY: Condition 1 from the Planning
14 Commission stated, "Any business owner with an
15 occupational license that has a business that
16 has been encumbered or hindered by a
17 governmental agency, including the JEA, JTA work
18 or improvements, shall be allowed to place up to
19 two signs directing people to their place of
20 business. Such signs shall be allowed seven
21 days a week, 24 hours a day during the time of
22 construction or work in such improvement and
23 removed within ten days of completion of such
24 improvements and shall be subject to the
25 physical signage parameters of the temporary
1 real estate directional signs provision.
2 "No distance limitations regarding
3 placement from business" -- "no distance
4 limitations regarding the placement from
5 business or with regard to other signs shall
6 apply to such signs."
7 The second condition stated that,
8 "Section 111.786, the litter trust fund, is
9 amended so that the funds" -- "70 percent of
10 those funds derived from the collection of fines
11 are to be redirect- -- or to be directed to the
12 City of
13 the City, not the JTA, and that such funds may
14 be authorized to be directed to the JTA once the
15 JTA has removed all advertisements from its
16 transit shelters located on the public
17 rights-of-ways and the allowance for advertising
18 on such transit shelters located on the public
19 rights-of-ways has ceased. In such event, the
20 JTA may use such funds for the sole purpose of
21 keeping public bus stops and bus shelters
22 well-maintained, litter free, and for the
23 construction of new bus shelters."
24 (Mr. Brown exits the proceedings.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis, I have you on the
1 queue first.
2 MR. DAVIS: I'll yield to the past
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones.
5 MR. JONES: Thank you.
6 The 70 percent going to the JTA if they
7 ever decide not to have signage, what happens to
8 the balance of that, the 30 percent, what
9 happens to that?
10 MR. KELLY: That's already proposed in the
11 bill of the -- the monies that are collected.
12 Seventy percent would specifically go for the
13 maintenance of bus shelters. The additional
14 30 percent would go towards public awareness,
15 enforcement, hiring employees basically to -- to
16 enforce and have public awareness projects for
18 MR. JONES: Okay. I would rather see the
19 70 percent go to maintain the right-of-way to a
20 designated fund and not necessarily the general
21 fund. I don't think -- with this bill
22 sunsetting in 2011, I don't think it gives us a
23 permanent source of funding to maintain our
24 shelters anyway, so . . .
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, can I confirm
1 something? The language you were just reading
2 was, I believe, the language from the Planning
3 Commission, right?
4 MR. KELLY: Yes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Which I think we may
6 have some --
7 (Simultaneous speaking.)
8 MR. KELLY: Correct. I mean -- but the
9 70 percent threshold was proposed in this
10 substitute version to go towards the maintenance
11 of bus shelters.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now Mr. Davis.
13 MR. DAVIS: Two things. One, I'm not going
14 to support number 2. What I would like to do is
15 move the amendment and let legal use the
16 language that Mr. Brinton read into the record
17 as far as the whereas clause leading into what
18 section we place this language. I'd like to
19 move that amendment first.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go ahead and pass what
21 we've got and then we can amend it.
22 Mr. Reingold, do you think that would be
23 the appropriate way or do you want to amend this
25 MR. DAVIS: We don't even have an
1 amendment. I would not -- do you have a second
2 on this amendment?
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Didn't we get a motion and a
4 second on it? Yes.
5 MR. DAVIS: I would not --
6 MR. JONES: (Inaudible.)
7 MR. DAVIS: Yeah, I would offer this
8 amendment to that.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: To eliminate number 2 --
10 MR. DAVIS: And add the language that was
11 read into the record, let legal work on that
12 between now and Tuesday night as far as the
13 exact language that the whereas clause will give
14 us proper standing.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right.
16 MR. DAVIS: So that would be my amendment
17 to the current amendment that was on the floor.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. So we have a
19 motion and --
20 MR. JONES: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: -- a second on a -- the
23 Mr. Reingold, do you have question about
24 that before we vote?
25 MR. REINGOLD: (Shakes head.)
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anybody else have a
2 question on what that -- on what Mr. Davis was
4 MR. ROHAN: (Indicating.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Rohan.
6 MR. ROHAN: The substitute is already
7 adopted. It was passed at the council and sent
8 back to you. So I understand the only amendment
9 now on the floor is Mr. Davis' amendment, and so
10 it's just an amendment to the substitute, for --
11 for clarity.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I'm sorry. So all
13 the language you were talking about was -- was
14 the sub.
15 MR. REINGOLD: No.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: What do we have --
17 MR. DAVIS: I think we're in a proper
18 posture (off microphone) --
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
20 All right. All in favor of the
21 amendment signify by saying aye.
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
24 MR. JONES: Move the bill as substituted
25 and once amended.
1 MR. REDMAN: Second.
2 MR. DAVIS: I had one other thing.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, Mr. Davis.
4 MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, I apologize, and
5 I hope that I'm not messing up your process.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: No. We just want to make
7 sure we get it all right so we don't have to
8 come back later.
9 MR. DAVIS: Okay. The only other thought I
10 have is to make sure that the balance of the
11 funds that are collected off the fines and the
12 permit fees go into some type of trust fund to
13 help either code enforcement or whoever is going
14 to go out to -- similar to this litter trust
15 fund that's going to help clean up the
17 So I don't know if that's even
18 appropriate. I'd ask legal if there's already a
19 vehicle that we could do that or if we should
20 create a vehicle tonight to say, hey, this is
21 where we want the money to go and it would be
22 used solely for the purpose of enforcement.
23 So I think that would help clean up some
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, Mr. Reingold, could
1 you confirm for everybody the -- where the
2 70 percent and the 30 percent is going as it
3 stands right now? And then I --
4 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, you've got
5 70 percent of the fine monies shall essentially
6 go to JTA for the sole purpose of keeping bus
7 shelt- -- public bus stops and public bus
8 shelters well-maintained and litter free, then
9 you've got 30 percent of the fine monies, plus
10 any funds transferred --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold, you keep
12 saying the "fine money." Do you mean the fees,
13 fines and fees?
14 MR. REINGOLD: I see in here -- it just --
15 it says "fine monies" in -- under the litter
16 trust fund.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we need to clarify
18 that so we all know what we're talking about
20 Mr. Rohan.
21 MR. ROHAN: In order for the law to be
22 legal, the funds -- it's not a tax. It's funds
23 that go toward the enforcement of the
24 directional signs and the -- in order to pay for
25 the cost of issuing the permits and the cost of
1 enforcement. So I think it's best left un- --
2 anything further is -- would not help you with
3 regard to articulating where the fee money went
4 because the fee money generally goes to the
5 general fund, but it's got to be a -- no more
6 money than it costs for the enforcement and the
7 implementation of the ordinance. So I don't
8 think you'd want that fee money to go to --
9 necessarily to litter at this time.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So is everybody clear
11 that the fee monies will be going to the general
12 fund and fine monies --
13 MR. DAVIS: The only -- I'm sorry,
14 Mr. Chairman, but the only thought is we're
15 defining -- as far as I remember -- I don't
16 have -- I've got it open on the screen, but
17 we're defining snipe signs as litter, are we
18 not, in this bill?
19 MR. ROHAN: That's correct.
20 MR. DAVIS: So there is a rationale nexus
21 between -- I just want to make sure that this
22 money -- that we can truthfully tell people when
23 they're pulling permits to put signs in our
24 right-of-way that there's a legitimate reason
25 why they need to pull a permit, so we can get
1 all the people that aren't pulling permits off
2 the street. So that's the goal.
3 I think that if we -- if we designate it in
4 this litter trust fund to pick up,
5 quote-unquote, litter, which would be the snipe
6 signs, or enforce the current sign code, then
7 I'm fine with that. I just want to make sure it
8 doesn't get lost somewhere.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So is that in need of
10 an amendment to the language to say that fees
11 for signage will go to a litter trust fund
12 designated for litter removal or designated for
13 sign removal? Mr. Davis, is that what you're
15 MR. DAVIS: Through the Chair, I'm not in
16 the bowels of government on a daily basis.
17 Okay? So I'm on this level (indicating). I
18 don't know where it would be in here as far as
19 how you accomplish the goal that we're stating
20 we want to accomplish.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, do you want to
22 help us out here and clarify it so --
23 MR. KELLY: I guess -- my understanding is
24 that the permit fees collected would also go to
25 the same sub fund for the fines issued for the
1 snipe sign fees, that it will all go to the same
2 sub fund to be solely used for the enforcement
3 of the zero tolerance litter program and the
4 programs associated with that.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Does that satisfy
6 you, Mr. Davis, that it would go to a litter
7 trust fund for all litter pickup?
8 MR. DAVIS: To be honest with you -- and
9 Mr. Crescimbeni might be able to help -- I don't
10 know. I stated my intention, and that is we
11 want 70 percent of the fines going to clean up
12 bus shelters. The balance of that should go to
13 enforcing snipe signs is what our -- I think our
14 goal is. I don't know what needs to be written
15 to make sure that happens, if that makes any
16 sense, but that's the goal.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Rohan, help us out
18 here. You --
19 MR. ROHAN: Through the Chair, if you
20 identify your intentions, then we'll get the
21 actual terminology down, if that's -- because I
22 know -- in order to get the funds to the people
23 who do the enforcement, they have a special
24 code, so we'd have to make sure the language
25 allows the money to be disbursed into that
1 account and budgeted into that account, but
2 we'll get that language down. If that's what
3 your intention is, if you'll vote on that
4 intention, we'll get it squared away as to what
5 the precise language is.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Crescimbeni, did
7 you have a -- something to add?
8 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Mr. Chairman, I just saw
9 Mr. Killingsworth and Mr. Brinton all looking
10 like they wanted to comment on this. Maybe we
11 could hear from them, if they have any input on
12 Mr. Davis' suggestion.
13 Maybe not. Maybe they don't want to
14 comment on it.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Not yet, Mr. Brinton.
16 We're not going to take from the crowd
17 right now because I've got people raising their
19 Mr. Reingold or Mr. Gabriel, do you feel
20 like we're in need of an amendment or can this
21 language be cleared up this week and go with
22 Mr. Davis' amendment? Are we fine or do we need
23 another amendment to clarify this -- these
24 dollar amounts?
25 MR. REINGOLD: Well, I -- the council
1 member's intention would be a separate amendment
2 to this bill. And we can certainly just all
3 incorporate into one amendment, which would be
4 the council member's intent for the use of the
5 fees, not the fines but the fees issue, to --
6 combined with the previous amendment that was
7 already adopted, which was the -- which was
8 the -- dealing with one of the two Planning
9 Commission amendments, plus with Mr. Brinton's
10 language. So that would all be wrapped up as
11 one amendment that we can include as part of
12 this -- what comes out of LUZ.
13 If the -- any members of LUZ or the City
14 Council want to adjust it between now and next
15 Tuesday, that could certainly be dealt with in a
16 floor amendment.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: But as of right now, you're
18 okay with the language that we've got? No
19 further amendments need to be given to
20 straighten out this situation?
21 MR. KELLY: Right now it's broken up
22 70/30, my understanding, for the fines; that the
23 permit fee would then solely go to the
24 30 percent of the sub fund account. So the $100
25 per sign fee would go towards the enforcement
1 and the programs and the training, not
2 necessarily the bus shelters.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. Permit fees go
4 into --
5 MR. DAVIS: Right.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So I think we're all
7 squared away.
8 Do we have any further amendments that want
9 to be proposed?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other speakers?
12 MR. REINGOLD: (Indicating.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
14 MR. REINGOLD: Just one small clarification
15 that might be of assistance.
16 Following up with what Mr. Kelly said,
17 essentially the fees would go to the 30 percent
18 portion, which is the littering. However, we
19 might want to say that it goes to the permitting
20 of -- and also to the -- to, then, the
21 enforcement aspect addressed in here.
22 I just want to make sure it's clear that
23 the money is also being used for, you know,
24 issuing the permits, reviewing the permit
25 applications, and the like.
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
2 All right. So we've got all that on the
3 record. I think we're good to go.
4 Mr. Jones.
5 MR. JONES: I guess -- I just want to make
6 sure we're clear on one thing. The enforcement,
7 who -- what agency, what department will perform
8 the enforcement? Because some of them don't
9 work on weekends, and you know that a lot of our
10 violators realize that and try to take advantage
11 of it.
12 MR. KELLY: The enforcement would be up to
13 the Municipal Code Compliance Division.
14 MR. JONES: Okay. That's the one that's
15 doing the enforcement today?
16 MR. KELLY: Correct.
17 MR. JONES: Okay. Thank you.
18 MR. DAVIS: Plus the certified volunteers.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Right, which is something I
20 wanted to ask. Is there anybody here that has a
21 vision as to what department is going to run
22 that program or train the people? I would
23 assume that would go through code enforcement as
25 Planning, legal, any ideas? Just out of
2 MR. ROHAN: Which division is doing the
4 MR. KELLY: Development Services.
5 MR. ROHAN: Development Services?
6 MR. DAVIS: No. We just made that change.
7 MR. ROHAN: Yeah, I wanted to clarify what
8 that change was. The -- that's part of the
10 MR. KELLY: The amendment was to change
11 from -- for the permit issuance, from
12 Development Services to Building Inspection.
13 The -- I mean, the issue with that is that
14 typically the Development Services Division will
15 issue any permits in the public right-of-way.
16 They're the responsible division for issuing
17 permits in the right-of-way. Building
18 Inspection typically issues sign permits,
19 structural permits, so . . .
20 MR. ROHAN: Well, I would ask for an
21 opinion from the director of Planning as to
22 which would be the appropriate training
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
25 MR. ROHAN: I'm sure he can articulate that
1 real quickly.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we can probably
3 figure it out this -- in this coming week.
4 MR. ROHAN: Yes, we can do that too.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
6 Okay. Any other speakers?
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: We have passed our
9 amendments. We're in order to move the bill as
10 amended. I need a motion.
11 MR. DAVIS: Move the bill as amended.
12 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Motion and
14 second on the bill as amended.
15 Please open the ballot.
16 (Committee ballot opened.)
17 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
20 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
22 (Committee ballot closed.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
25 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nay.
1 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
2 approved 2010-253.
3 I want to thank all the people who had a
4 part in putting this together, Mr. Hart,
5 Mr. Brinton particularly, for taking time out of
6 their schedule to work with us.
7 I think we've got something here that's
8 going to do a lot of good to get rid of those
9 signs that are annoying all of us. First
10 objective is to get rid of the fire union signs
11 that are littering up our right-of-ways.
12 All right. Item number 4, 2010-261. We
13 will open the public hearing.
14 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
15 public hearing to July 20th, take no further
17 Item number 5, 2010-262. We'll open the
18 public hearing.
19 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue it to
20 July 20th.
21 Item 6, 2010-263. Open the public
23 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that
24 to --
25 MR. CROFTS: Mr. Chairman.
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir.
2 MR. CROFTS: I've had some last-minute
3 discussion with the applicant on -263. I'd just
4 like to change it from a date certain, August
5 3rd, to just open and continue for the time
6 being, if you would, please.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We will open and
8 continue that public hearing, take no further
10 MR. CROFTS: And then number 7, that's a
11 companion -- excuse me -- companion rezoning,
12 and we'll just leave that blank until we come up
13 with the appropriate date for the future public
15 THE CHAIRMAN: We will just defer that.
16 Thank you.
17 Item number 8, 2010-311. We'll open the
18 public hearing.
19 Mr. Register.
20 But before Mr. Register speaks, could we
21 have Planning go over the amendments so that we
22 make sure that he's okay with it? He's on a bum
23 leg. He can't stand up for hours.
24 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
25 To the Chair, the Planning Commission
1 recommended approval on May 27th subject to the
2 following four conditions, and I believe there's
3 an amendment to one of the conditions or to a --
4 or to add a fifth condition that Dylan will read
5 into the record.
6 Condition 1, "The development shall be
7 subject to the original legal description dated
8 April 22nd, 2010."
9 Condition 2, "The development shall be
10 subject to the revised written description dated
11 May 7th, 2010."
12 Condition 3, "The development shall be
13 subject to the revised site plan dated April
14 22nd, 2010."
15 Condition 4, "The development shall be
16 subject to the review and approval of the
17 Development Services Division subject to the
18 memorandum dated April 20th, 2010, or as
19 otherwise approved by the Planning and
20 Development Department."
21 And then there's a new fifth condition that
22 I believe the applicant is aware of with regards
23 to the location -- temporary location of the
24 playground for the day care and the parking lot,
25 and Dylan can go ahead and read that.
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
2 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair, the last
3 condition would be that, "Play areas for day
4 cares located within the parking lot shall be
5 surrounded by concrete barriers, a minimum of
6 3 feet in height, and shall be removed within
7 two years of the issuance of a certificate of
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Register, do you
10 want come up or are you just wanting questions
12 MR. REGISTER: Questions only.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You're okay with all
14 those conditions?
15 MR. REGISTER: I'm fine with it, yes.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent. Thank you, sir.
17 Anybody have any questions of
18 Mr. Register?
19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, we will close the
21 public hearing.
22 MR. JONES: Move the amendment.
23 MR. REDMAN: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on the
1 All in favor of the amendment, please
2 signify by saying aye.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
5 MR. JONES: Move the bill as amended.
6 MR. DAVIS: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on the
8 bill as amended.
9 Please open the ballot.
10 (Committee ballot opened.)
11 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
14 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
16 (Committee ballot closed.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
19 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nay.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
21 approved 2010-311.
22 Thank you all for working with me,
23 Mr. Register in particular.
24 MR. REGISTER: Thank you much. I do
25 appreciate it.
1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Number 9,
2 2010-312. Open the public hearing.
3 No speakers. We'll continue to June 15th.
4 Number 10, 2010-313. We'll open the public
6 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue this to
7 June 15th.
8 Number 11, 2010-314. Open the public
10 Is this the one that we said that we were
11 going to defer?
12 MR. KELLY: No.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, that's -316. All
15 MR. KELLY: This is a waiver of road
16 frontage --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: This is a waiver. We have
18 no speakers, so I will close the public hearing,
19 and I need a -- someone to move an amendment to
20 grant or amendment -- amendment to deny.
21 We do have a speaker?
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. 2010-316.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: -314. This is -314, sir.
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: No, no.
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So you've got the
2 next one.
3 Hopefully we have a card from him on that
5 MS. STEPHENS: Yes.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
7 All right. Any speakers on this -- or
8 somebody want to propose an amendment to grant
9 or deny?
10 MR. JONES: What is the recommendation?
11 MR. KELLY: Through the Chair, this is a
12 request for a waiver of road frontage at
14 reduction from 80 feet to 75 feet. The
15 department is recommending approval, no
17 MR. JONES: Move the amendment to grant the
19 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: We have an amendment to
21 grant the waiver.
22 All in favor of the amendment signify by
23 saying aye.
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
1 Move to grant --
2 MR. JONES: Move the bill as amended, the
4 MR. REDMAN: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have a motion to
7 Please open the ballot.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
11 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
13 (Committee ballot closed.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
16 MS. LAHMEUR: Four yeas, zero nay.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
18 granted the waiver.
19 All right. 2010-315. We'll open the
20 public hearing.
21 Seeing no speakers, we will continue to
22 June 15th.
23 2010-316. This is the one you are here
24 for, sir.
25 We'll open the public hearing. And, for
1 the record, we are not going to be taking action
2 on this tonight. We're opening and continuing
3 the public hearing, but --
4 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: You are Mr. Thomas
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent. Go ahead, sir.
9 MR. CAMPBELL: Well, we are requesting a
10 variance, sign variance on this. The existing
11 sign, which has been up there many years, is --
12 has a 7 foot, 6 inch setback as it is. We are
13 replacing an old sign with a new sign. It's --
14 apartment project wants to dress up their
15 place. The new sign is one inch longer than the
16 old one.
17 Now, it's a different situation there
18 because I know a lot of times you drive out and
19 right away you're forced to look at the traffic
20 that's coming by. In this particular place,
21 after you pass the front of that sign, toward
22 the road, it is 14 foot, 6 inches to where you
23 will stop to get your vision in each direction.
24 I've ridden in and out of there quite a
25 number of times just checking it out to make
1 sure that -- I don't want to do anything that's
2 dangerous to the public, and that's what we are
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
5 Anybody have any questions for
6 Mr. Campbell?
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 MR. KELLY: To the Chair, I believe -- I
9 know on the staff report, the planner that went
10 and visited the location indicated that the
11 signs were not posted, so we were in a posture
12 of opening and continuing this hearing.
13 I think the applicant had brought forth
14 some pictures, providing evidence that the signs
15 were posted and that the staff planner just did
16 not -- was not able to see them at that time,
17 but they were posted. I think there's some
18 photographs here that they are going to
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. Okay.
21 Did you understand what he was saying?
22 We --
23 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: We're continuing it for
25 another cycle because the signs that may or may
1 not have been put up to notice the public that
2 this proceeding was going on, they were not able
3 to be seen by our inspectors. So that's why
4 we're not going to take action tonight. We're
5 going to take action in two weeks.
6 But it's the opinion of the Planning
7 Department -- we had somebody go out and look
8 for them and didn't see them; is that right?
9 MR. CROFTS: That's correct.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, I'm going to
11 stick with what we ruled earlier this year and
12 we're going to -- we're going to take a pause
13 for one cycle.
14 We have one more speaker that wants to
15 speak, Ms. Diana Otwell.
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I did go out yesterday
19 because Aaron Glick had called me from the
20 Planning Department saying the signs were not
21 up, and did I put them out there. And two of
22 the four -- I drove by again yesterday -- are
24 And I told Aaron, I said, I don't know
25 how -- whoever went out there didn't see them
1 because they are in plain sight. One was right
2 in front of a tree and the one off of Old Kings
3 Road was right on the side of the road.
4 And I did have a -- I mean, they gave me
5 the survey as where exactly to put them and I
6 put them out there, so . . .
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that all you have?
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I think we're in
12 position to -- we'll move it forward next
13 meeting, two weeks from now.
14 All right. If there are no questions for
15 either of the speakers, then we will continue
16 that public hearing and take action next
17 meeting. I don't know what the date on that
18 is. Let's see. June 15th.
19 Item number 14 and 15 are both deferred, as
20 well as all of page 7.
21 Item number 20 on page 8 is deferred.
22 We are down to item 21, council members,
24 MR. JONES: Move the bill.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: We will open the public
1 hearing, and we have Ms. Johnston.
2 Come on down.
3 (Ms. Johnston approaches the podium.)
4 MS. JOHNSTON: Hello.
5 Paige Johnston,
6 on behalf of the applicant.
7 This is a notice of proposed change
8 regarding the northeast quadrant of the Deerwood
9 Park development of regional impact. It's a
10 minor change to increase the maximum residential
11 ceiling of the DRI.
12 And we have a letter of recommendation
13 coming from the
14 Planning Council, and the staff has recommended
15 approval, and we would request your support as
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
18 We do have the Planning Department
19 recommendation of approval.
20 Anything y'all want to stay?
21 MR. CROFTS: No.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll close the
23 public hearing.
24 I need a motion to move the bill.
25 MR. JONES: Move the bill.
1 MR. REDMAN: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on -348.
3 Please open the ballot.
4 (Committee ballot opened.)
5 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
7 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
9 (Committee ballot closed.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
12 MS. LAHMEUR: Four yeas, zero nay.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
14 approved -348.
15 Thank you, Ms. Johnston.
16 All right. Items 22 and 23 are read second
17 and rerefer, as well as all of page 9, all of
18 page 10, all of page 11.
19 Items 36 and 37 are read second and
21 Item 38, we need to move an amendment
22 before we read it.
23 MR. JONES: Move the amendment to 2010-386.
24 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on the
2 All in favor of the amendment -- should we
3 read the amendment?
4 MR. REINGOLD: The amendment essentially
5 changes the acreage and the exhibits, the map
6 and the legal description.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead and tell us on
8 -387, what it does.
9 MR. REINGOLD: The amendment does the same
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right.
12 Okay. We have a motion and second on the
13 amendment on -386.
14 All in favor of the amendment signify by
15 saying aye.
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
18 We will now rerefer that back.
19 Item 39. I need a --
20 MR. JONES: Move the amendment.
21 MR. REDMAN: Second.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and a second
23 on the amendment. Please -- I'm sorry.
24 All in favor of the amendment signify by
25 saying aye.
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So we moved those
3 amendments --
4 MS. LAHMEUR: (Inaudible.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, those have to be on a
6 ballot. Okay. I'm sorry.
7 All right. So we'll have to go back to
8 38. We have a motion and second on the
9 amendment on 2010-386.
10 Please open the ballot.
11 (Committee ballot opened.)
12 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
15 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
17 (Committee ballot closed.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
20 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nay.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
22 approved the amendment on -386.
23 Now we will rerefer it back to the
25 MR. JONES: Move 2010-387, the amendment.
1 MR. REDMAN: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on the
3 amendment on -387.
4 Please open the ballot.
5 (Committee ballot opened.)
6 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
9 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
11 (Committee ballot closed.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
14 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nay.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
16 approved the amendment on -387, and we will
17 rerefer it back to committee.
18 Okay. All of page 313 [sic] is a straight
19 read second, as well as all of page 14, 15, and
21 Unless I've missed something, which I've
22 been known to, we're good to go.
23 Have a good night.
24 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
25 6:13 p.m.)
1 - - -
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
3 STATE OF
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 6th day of June, 2010.
14 Diane M. Tropia