1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE


       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING


       3                         COMMITTEE






       6             Proceedings held on Tuesday, April 6, 2010,


       7   commencing at 5:00 p.m., City Hall, Council Chambers,


       8   1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before Diane M.


       9   Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of


      10   Florida at Large.




      12   PRESENT:


      13        RAY HOLT, Chair.

                WARREN JONES, Vice Chair.

      14        REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.

                JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.

      15        STEPHEN JOOST, Committee Member.

                DON REDMAN, Committee Member.



      17   ALSO PRESENT:


      18        JOHN CRESCIMBENI, City Council Member.

                JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

      19        SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

                FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.

      20        KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.

                JASON GABRIEL, Office of General Counsel.

      21        DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.

                RICK CAMPBELL, Research Assistant.

      22        MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.

                JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.


                                 -  -  -








           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   April 6, 2010                           5:00 p.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening, everybody.


       5             Let's find our places and see if we can get


       6        moving on this agenda.  I think we're going to


       7        be fairly quick.  I only anticipate one item


       8        being an issue.


       9             I guess we've got all we're going to get.


      10        I saw Dr. Gaffney a little while ago.  Mr. Davis


      11        is excused this evening.


      12             Let's not even do the introductions.  If


      13        y'all want to know who we are, there's


      14        nameplates all around.  So we won't do the


      15        introduction thing.


      16             Okay.  We have one visiting council member


      17        with us tonight.


      18             Mr. Crescimbeni, thank you for being here,


      19        sir.  And we'll take your item up first,


      20        number 1.


      21             On page 2, council members, we have item


      22        2009-429.


      23             Mr. Crofts, before we open the public


      24        hearing, could you run through this and


      25        describe -- because I know there's a sub and we





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        need you to explain that to us -- or Mr. Kelly,


       2        whoever.


       3             MR. CROFTS:  Okay.  What I'll do, I'll just


       4        start, and then I'd like to ultimately get


       5        into -- Mr. Reingold, let me set the context for


       6        the committee, and then specifically there may


       7        be some things that Mr. Reingold would like to


       8        add.


       9             For the benefit of the committee, 2009-429


      10        addresses the manner in which the director of


      11        the Planning and Development Department


      12        maintains the comprehensive plan and the zoning


      13        code as it relates to bona fide errors that


      14        arise as a reflection of boundary changes or


      15        potential changes in the future land use map and


      16        of the 2030 Comprehensive Plans, future land use


      17        element, and the zoning atlas of the zoning


      18        code.


      19             We're talking specifically about portions


      20        of the City's ordinance code 656 -- Section


      21        654.14 for land use amendments and 656.203 as it


      22        relates to boundary issues regarding the zoning


      23        code.


      24             Currently, where it is determined that


      25        there are some bona fide errors in the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        reproduction process or the depiction of these


       2        particular category boundaries, the director


       3        historically had more or less the exclusive


       4        authority to make the appropriate corrections


       5        and make record of such by making the


       6        modification to the appropriate error or change


       7        and actually without further action of the


       8        City Council.


       9             Records were kept in the appropriate


      10        repositories of the City of Jacksonville and the


      11        Planning Department and the office of the


      12        secretary of the council.  These amendments that


      13        we have before us today basically enhance this


      14        process; in other words, provide a bit of a


      15        checks and balances that after the appropriate


      16        detection of a determination of an error that


      17        there will be certain procedures and processes


      18        that will take place.


      19             And specifically there's notification


      20        required to -- after the director determines


      21        there is an error, that there will be


      22        notification to the affected council member,


      23        each at-large councilperson, chairman of the


      24        appropriate committee, and then ultimately the


      25        posting of signs, the creation of a 14-day





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        appeal period by any adversely-affected person,


       2        an appeal process with notification to the


       3        council president, the chairman of the


       4        appropriate committee, the affected district


       5        council member, as well as the planning


       6        director.  And if the appeal is found sufficient


       7        by the Office of General Counsel, then a hearing


       8        will be held before the City Council.


       9             And then that final determination, if it is


      10        a -- determined to be a bona fide error, that


      11        final determination and final action will be


      12        made by the City Council.


      13             So that's kind of the process.  I know that


      14        there's been some last-minute enhancements to


      15        the bill, but we do have an amendment before --


      16        or actually a substitute with an amendment, and


      17        I'll let Dylan explain that.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Excellent.


      19             MR. REINGOLD:  To the committee, actually


      20        it's just going to be one substitute.  There's


      21        not going to be a subsequent amendment.  The


      22        substitute essentially looks like the document


      23        you've got in your book with a small change,


      24        that if there are changes made, essentially


      25        notwithstanding any changes resulting from





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        corrections to the cadastral maps as


       2        periodically made by the property appraiser,


       3        those are not included as part of this process.


       4             Otherwise, the substitute as drafted in


       5        front of you is the one for the consideration of


       6        the committee.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  And that's the only


       8        change?


       9             MR. REINGOLD:  Yeah.  And that's both in


      10        the land use portion and the zoning code


      11        portion.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Excellent.


      13             And, for the record, we have with us


      14        tonight -- Dr. Gaffney just arrived,


      15        Councilmember Brown, Councilmember Holt, Jones,


      16        Joost, Redman, and Crescimbeni.


      17             All right.  Any discussion on this?


      18             Let's go ahead and open the public hearing.


      19             Ms. Broward.


      20             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      21             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I apologize.  I thought


      22        Crescimbeni was going to open it.  I apologize.


      23        It was his bill.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Did you want to


      25        say something before she starts?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. CRESCIMBENI:  (Inaudible.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  No, go ahead,


       3        Mr. Crescimbeni.  We're very relaxed.


       4             MR. CRESCIMBENI:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       5             If you understood that explanation by


       6        Mr. Crofts, I give you great credit, because


       7        I've been involved in this bill and I'm not sure


       8        I understood what he said to the committee,


       9        so -- no disrespect to Mr. Crofts.


      10             But what happens at present, the Planning


      11        Department director has the ability to change


      12        the zoning atlas maps and change the future land


      13        use maps, period.  It's supposed to be when a


      14        bona fide error comes to his attention because


      15        every time we change -- every time we rezone or


      16        pass a land use amendment, they have to redraw


      17        the maps, and sometimes they make mistakes.


      18             But the director has the ultimate power to


      19        shift those lines.  And the problem is, what


      20        happens if it's not a bona fide error?  I mean,


      21        the wrong director could actually direct his


      22        staff to move the lines when there is no bona


      23        fide error.


      24             And what happened in 2001 was our director


      25        at the time issued such a directive to move some





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        lines.  And the lines were in a residential


       2        neighborhood, a neighborhood that Ms. Broward is


       3        going to tell you about, that -- since the


       4        adoption of the 2010 plan and prior to that


       5        even, but since the adoption of the 2010 plan in


       6        '91 that they thought were residential lots.


       7             So what this bill will do is simply provide


       8        a little check and balance, the council


       9        member -- the district council member would get


      10        notified when such a change was going to be


      11        made, the at-large council members would be


      12        notified, the LUZ Chair would be notified, and a


      13        sign would go up on the property.


      14             And there would be a period of time -- I


      15        think it's 14 days -- and if any neighbor, like


      16        Ms. Broward, if they see the sign go up and go,


      17        huh, I thought that was always RLD and now


      18        it's -- there's supposedly a correction changing


      19        it to -- I think it was LI in this case.  Yeah,


      20        LI.  Then they could come forward and say, hey,


      21        wait a minute, I don't think that's right.  And


      22        they can kind of, like, short-circuit the


      23        process and at least have their voices heard.


      24             So that's kind of the bill in a nutshell.


      25        It just provides an extra check and balance.  We





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        worked through this with the Planning


       2        Commission, the director and the staff -- or the


       3        director is in full support.


       4             But late last week we heard from the


       5        property appraiser that they maintain these


       6        things called cadastral maps.  I'd never heard


       7        of them.  I was here for eight years.  I never


       8        heard of a cadastral map.  But when they --


       9             They actually figure out sometimes the maps


      10        that they maintain on the system are correct, so


      11        then they have to adjust property lines as they


      12        go out and inspect properties periodically.  And


      13        then when they make those corrections, they send


      14        them to -- well, they send them to the Planning


      15        Department and the Planning Department has to,


      16        in turn, correct the lines on their zoning maps


      17        to match the property boundaries that the


      18        property appraiser has.


      19             So we don't want to -- that process, I


      20        think, is okay.  And that's why the amendment


      21        was made today in the new substitute, so that


      22        when the property appraiser sends corrections


      23        that he's made to the cadastral maps -- those


      24        are probably pretty bona fide.  I don't think


      25        those need to be -- I don't think I need to hear





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        about that.  I don't think a sign needs to go up


       2        about that.  But when the Planning Department


       3        thinks or somebody calls to their attention what


       4        they perceive to be an error, I think that's


       5        when the public needs to have an opportunity to


       6        say yea or nay.


       7             Thank you.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Crescimbeni.


       9        A very good summary.


      10             Ms. Broward.


      11             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thanks for coming down.


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.


      14             My name is Barbara Broward.  I live at 717


      15        Cedar Bay Road.


      16             I'm glad you understand this,


      17        Mr. Crescimbeni.  I'm going to have to ask a


      18        question of General Counsel because I'm a little


      19        confused now, but let me move forward with what


      20        happened and what has produced this ordinance.


      21             In 1968, when the old airport was sold to


      22        Webb International Industrial Park, the Cedar


      23        Bay community, which is a waterfront community,


      24        was very concerned about maintaining the


      25        integrity of their residential road and their





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        residences.  This is a well-established


       2        residential community back before actually the


       3        second World War.  We were there first.


       4             Anyway, they entered into a covenant with


       5        the City of Jacksonville that stated that Cedar


       6        Bay Road was to always be a residential road.


       7        The integrity of Cedar Bay community was always


       8        to be a residential community.  It stayed that


       9        way until 1986.


      10             In 1986, some property owners tried to come


      11        onto the residential side of the road on a


      12        42-acre site and put in warehousing.  At that


      13        time, there was a public meeting.  And at that


      14        meeting, the entire Cedar Bay Road showed up.


      15        And what basically happened is our Councilman


      16        then, the late Councilman Joe Forshee, said that


      17        this was going to be -- along with the support


      18        of the committee and the decision of the


      19        committee, said that this was to be a


      20        residential road and to enforce our residential


      21        community.  They were going to put in a buffer,


      22        just like they have all over Jacksonville, of


      23        200 feet running the full length of Cedar Bay


      24        Road on the industrial park side to further


      25        enhance the fact that we are to maintain a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        residential community.


       2             At that time, it was entered into the books


       3        at the map with the City Council.  I think that


       4        was done when it came around to show it in


       5        1991.  Somewhere along the line it was changed


       6        administratively.  Nobody knew anything about it


       7        until what happened, they showed up with land


       8        moving trucks to move -- clear land for a


       9        warehouse that was been sold in our residential


      10        community using our residential-designated


      11        residential road.  We didn't know nothing about


      12        it.


      13             That is one of the things that should never


      14        happen to anyone who have had their properties


      15        violated by an error when the City had entered


      16        into a covenant as far back as 1968.  This is


      17        what has put this forward.


      18             Now, I agree, I support with Crescimbeni's


      19        ordinance, and I vote that you -- or hope that


      20        you would approve of this.


      21             But I don't understand one thing, and


      22        that's Mr. Reingold's change.  And if you could


      23        clarify it, Mr. Crescimbeni, I'd appreciate it.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'll ask him about it and we


      25        can clarify that in just a moment.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Mr. Killingsworth, did you want to speak on


       2        this issue?


       3             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  I'd like to say a few


       4        words.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.  Come on up.


       6             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Would you like to


       7        (inaudible)?


       8             MS. BROWARD:  No, I'm done.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  We'll handle that after the


      10        public hearing.


      11             (Mr. Killingsworth approaches the podium.)


      12             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman,


      13        for indulging me.


      14             This amendment to our zoning code --


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Can you give your name and


      16        title for the record?


      17             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  It's Bill Killingsworth,


      18        director of Planning and Development.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      20             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Basically, the


      21        comprehensive plan provides the authority for


      22        the director to make changes to the land use


      23        maps, but also within that same statement in our


      24        operational provisions of our comprehensive plan


      25        is a statement that says it's appealable to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        council.


       2             Basically, what this legislation does is


       3        puts in the appeals process that was never put


       4        in at the time we updated our code for the


       5        comprehensive plan.  It sets a 14-day appeal


       6        period, which I believe is not too onerous on


       7        somebody who might be in a position where they


       8        can't renew their insurance or refinance or


       9        close because of some issue with zoning, 14 days


      10        won't ultimately impact them greatly.


      11             But at the same time, it provides for added


      12        transparency between the department and the


      13        citizens in terms of what we're doing.  So the


      14        department is in full support of this


      15        legislative change.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Excellent.  Thank you.


      17             Any questions for Mr. Killingsworth?


      18             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no


      20        further speakers, we'll close the public


      21        hearing.


      22             Mr. Reingold, could you explain to us again


      23        what that one change was?  I believe basically


      24        it was just exempting changes from the property


      25        appraiser's office, which happened probably very





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        irregularly.


       2             MR. REINGOLD:  That is correct.  It's a


       3        property appraiser change.  I would actually


       4        defer to either Mr. Killingsworth or the


       5        Councilmember Crescimbeni to discuss the issue


       6        further, but essentially it's changes to their


       7        maps that the property appraiser does as opposed


       8        to sort of requests that come from the outside


       9        that people think that their property has been


      10        mislabeled.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  But the property


      12        appraiser doesn't have any authority to actually


      13        change our zoning maps or land use maps?


      14             MR. REINGOLD:  No.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Jones, you have a


      16        question?


      17             MR. JONES:  Thank you.


      18             Through the Chair to Mr. Killingsworth


      19        or -- I saw you was coming up.  Maybe you can


      20        answer this question.


      21             Are we talking about changes to the


      22        property boundaries or are we -- which, in


      23        effect, could impact a zoning?


      24             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  What happens is


      25        periodically the property appraiser does quality





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        control on their parcel lines.  And our zoning


       2        and land use lines reside on top of their parcel


       3        lines, so if during their quality control


       4        procedure they move a line a little bit, then we


       5        have to come back and move our zoning and land


       6        use line to match the parcel line.


       7             So, you know, I don't really consider that


       8        a reinterpretation of what the zoning and land


       9        use should be.  We're just adjusting to match


      10        the quality control that the property appraiser


      11        is doing.


      12             MR. JONES:  So when you say "parcel line,"


      13        you're talking about the boundaries?


      14             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  The actual property


      15        line that the property appraiser keeps, correct.


      16             MR. JONES:  Okay.  So that doesn't change


      17        the zoning necessarily?


      18             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  No, it doesn't.


      19             MR. JONES:  It doesn't move the zoning?


      20             MR. KILLINGSWORTH:  Right.


      21             MR. JONES:  Okay.  Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Jones.


      23             Mr. Crescimbeni, you wanted to say one more


      24        thing?


      25             MR. CRESCIMBENI:  Yes.  Thank you,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Mr. Chairman.


       2             If this were a parcel of property -- what


       3        happened in this instance was that the rear


       4        part -- this is Cedar Bay Road.  The rear part


       5        of the parcel had a zoning district of LI and


       6        the frontage on the road had a zoning district


       7        of RLD.  That's the way it was on the map.


       8        That's the way it was on -- and the


       9        corresponding land uses were on the future land


      10        use maps.


      11             The director, in 2001, for some reason,


      12        thought there was an error and they just


      13        arbitrarily moved this line to the road and


      14        said, no, that's not RLD, it's all LI.  And the


      15        public was always under the impression that it


      16        was RLD and they never got a chance to say


      17        anything.


      18             Now, what happens is the zoning is always


      19        going to kind of follow the property boundary.


      20        But let's just say the property appraiser went


      21        out and looked at this lot and they determined


      22        that they had misdrawn it, and this line


      23        (indicating) actually belonged over here


      24        (indicating), they're going to send that change


      25        to the Planning Department and say, you know,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        it's not 220 feet wide, it's 218 feet wide.  And


       2        when they pull this line back, the zoning is


       3        going to pull with the line.


       4             They say that, when they create their maps,


       5        a lot of it was just entered into the digital


       6        system from hand-drawn copies.  And they say


       7        sometimes, you know, the thickness of a pencil


       8        may have skewed the measurements.  And when they


       9        go out and periodically, you know, look at


      10        properties, they pick up these little errors


      11        here and there.


      12             So the property appraiser is not doing


      13        anything with the zoning.  They are just simply


      14        adjusting the boundaries.  And in this case, if


      15        you pulled this line over two feet (indicating),


      16        this next-door property would, I assume, grow


      17        two feet and that zoning would pull over as


      18        well.


      19             So the zoning is always going to follow the


      20        boundaries of the property.  It's just when the


      21        property appraiser determines that the


      22        boundaries aren't drawn properly, they send the


      23        corrections to the Planning Department.  And the


      24        Planning Department I don't think has any need


      25        to engage the public in those situations because





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        they're not making any determination; the


       2        property appraiser is.  They're just changing


       3        the boundary.  So the zoning is going to kind of


       4        ebb and flow with those changes.


       5             What happened in this case was they just


       6        simply moved the zoning line within a lot to the


       7        street.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you, sir.


       9             I don't have anyone else on my queue, so I


      10        need someone to move the sub.


      11             MR. JOOST:  Move the sub.


      12             MR. JONES:  Second.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and a second


      14        on the sub.


      15             All in favor of the sub signify by saying


      16        aye.


      17             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  The sub passes.


      19             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as substituted.


      20             MR. JONES:  Second.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


      22        bill as substituted.


      23             Please open the ballot.


      24             (Committee ballot opened.)


      25             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       3             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


       7        vote.


       8             (Committee ballot closed.)


       9             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      11        approved 2009-429.


      12             MR. CRESCIMBENI:  Thank you.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Crescimbeni,


      14        for coming down.


      15             All right.  Item number 2, 2009-444, is set


      16        for withdraw.


      17             MR. JOOST:  Move to withdraw.


      18             MR. JONES:  Second.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second to


      20        withdraw -444.


      21             Please open the ballot.


      22             (Committee ballot opened.)


      23             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


      25             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


       5        vote.


       6             (Committee ballot closed.)


       7             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


       9        withdrawn 2009-444.


      10             And I want to thank Mr. Reingold for


      11        working with me on that one.  We'll probably be


      12        coming back in the next month or two with some


      13        changes to that and related to our previous


      14        issue.  It's a very good thing.


      15             Okay.  Items 3 and 4 are deferred.


      16             Item number 5, 2010-14.


      17             Mr. Crofts, do you want to tee this up


      18        before we go into the public hearing?  Because I


      19        think there's going to be a little bit of a


      20        discrepancy on -- there are some issues that are


      21        supported by the applicant and some not, I


      22        think.


      23             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, members of the


      24        committee, originally this waiver of road


      25        frontage, which is located on Pritchard Road,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        west of I-295 -- the request is for reduction of


       2        the road frontage from forty-eight feet to


       3        zero feet for four proposed contiguous lots on


       4        Taylor Estates Road, which is a -- runs south of


       5        Pritchard Road, which is actually a private


       6        road, unapproved private road.


       7             The department originally had recommended


       8        denial on this.  And subsequent to that, there


       9        have been several meetings.  And, as you know,


      10        this bill has been deferred from February 17th


      11        till today.  And meetings have been conducted


      12        with staff and the applicant, as well as we've


      13        had some dialogue from the staff standpoint with


      14        the district councilperson.


      15             There have been a series of seven


      16        conditions that have been -- that we have worked


      17        up and drafted that we feel that we can support


      18        along with this particular action, and I'm going


      19        to basically -- you know, those conditions, I


      20        think we've made them aware to the applicant and


      21        he has a copy of those, and we can wait or read


      22        those into the record now or have the public


      23        hearing.  It's your choice.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Reingold, would you


      25        rather have him read them in now?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REINGOLD:  Yes.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let's have you do that


       3        before the public hearing.


       4             MR. CROFTS:  Since Mr. Kelly was involved


       5        in drafting these with our Office of General


       6        Counsel, I will defer to him.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       8             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


       9             Through the Chair to the committee,


      10        condition 1 for ordinance 2010-14 would state,


      11        "Prior to issuance of a building permit or


      12        final plat approval, Taylor Estates Lane shall


      13        be improved from Pritchard Road to the most


      14        southerly processed lot within" -- "proposed lot


      15        with a graded, stabilized travel surface, either


      16        gravel or coquina" -- and I believe we've added


      17        in Crush Crete as well -- "at least 20 feet wide


      18        with roadside swales or ditches that provide for


      19        positive drainage.  All proposed roadway and


      20        drainage improvements shall be subject to review


      21        and approval of the Planning" -- "of the


      22        Development Services Division of the Planning


      23        and Development Department."


      24             Condition 2, "Prior to issuance of a


      25        building permit or plat approval, the existing





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        private road easement of Taylor Estates Lane


       2        shall be widened to at least 50 feet and


       3        extended to the southern property line."


       4             Condition 3, "A cul-de-sac or turnaround


       5        area on Taylor Estates Lane shall be provided,


       6        subject to review and approval of the traffic


       7        review section of Development Services


       8        Division."


       9             Condition 4, "The most northerly lot


      10        fronting on Pritchard Road shall be accessed


      11        from Taylor Estates Lane."


      12             Condition 5, "The addresses for each lot


      13        shall be clearly identified at the intersection


      14        of Taylor Estates Lane and Pritchard Road."


      15             Condition 6, "Prior to issuance of a


      16        building permit or final plat approval, a common


      17        roadway maintenance agreement shall be recorded


      18        over the entire property or each parcel subject


      19        to review and approval of the Office of General


      20        Counsel and Planning and Development


      21        Department."


      22             Finally, condition 7, "Prior to issuance of


      23        a building permit or final plat approval, that


      24        an owner authorization or proof of ownership of


      25        Taylor Estates Lane be submitted for review and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        approval by the Planning and Development


       2        Department and Office of General Counsel."


       3             Those are the conditions.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       5             Okay.  Well, let's go ahead and open the


       6        public hearing.  We have one speaker.


       7             Mr. Boswell.


       8             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes.


       9             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  You've heard the conditions.


      11             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Are you in agreement


      13        with all those conditions?


      14             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes, I am.


      15             My name is Dan Boswell, 4014 Ranie Road,


      16        Jacksonville, Florida 32218.


      17             And I represent the owner of the


      18        properties, and I think he wanted to --


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'd like to say


      20        something.


      21             MR. BOSWELL:  -- say something also.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  You can go ahead.


      23             Come on up, sir.  And you can submit a card


      24        afterwards.


      25             (Audience member approaches the podium.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yeah, I forgot to fill


       2        one out.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Just fill one out


       4        later.


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Earl Allen.  I reside at


       6        16964 North Main Street, Jacksonville.  I own


       7        this property on Pritchard.


       8             Some of the issues I have is, one, he's


       9        saying put gravel or coquina on the road.  That


      10        road belongs to another man.  And that man may


      11        not want gravel or coquina on his road.  He may


      12        want something different.  So how am I going to


      13        do that to start with?


      14             And the turnaround spot, I done told him


      15        once the last time I was here, an engine went


      16        down there and turned around at the end and come


      17        out, and I've got the engineer's -- lieutenant's


      18        name at station 53A, P.G. Quinley drive his


      19        engine down there and turn around and come out,


      20        no problem.


      21             I'm not -- can't go down there and develop


      22        that man's property for a cul-de-sac, and I


      23        don't own that property.  How can I do that?


      24        Don't make good sense what you're asking.


      25             And as far as the road 20 foot wide, I go





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        out and measured the City roads out there, and


       2        they're 16-foot wide.  Why have I got to go


       3        20-foot wide and the City maintain roads that's


       4        16-foot wide?  Why are you asking more out of me


       5        than what the City is required their own self to


       6        do?


       7             A lot of this don't make a lot of sense to


       8        me.  They're just nitpicking, it look like to


       9        me, over something that don't matter a lot of


      10        nothing.  It just kind of aggravates me.


      11             But that's all I got to say, and I


      12        appreciate y'all's time.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      14             Mr. Boswell, did you want to say anything


      15        else?


      16             MR. BOSWELL:  No, that's --


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Mr. Brown.


      18             MR. BROWN:  I don't know whether that --


      19        Through the Chair.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you have a question for


      21        Mr. Boswell?


      22             MR. BROWN:  For Mr. Boswell.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      24             MR. BROWN:  Because I want to make sure.  I


      25        was about to say thank you to Planning, General





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Counsel, as well as the applicant because I


       2        believe that the work, the way that it was done


       3        should be done prior to coming to the committee,


       4        so I was really excited.


       5             And my understanding after that meeting I


       6        had this morning, that we were moving forward,


       7        the conditions was all agreed upon.  I was given


       8        a review and I thought it was a good thing.


       9             And I just want to make sure that the


      10        applicant -- so is the applicant in agreement


      11        with the representation that he's receiving


      12        today to move forward with this?  Because I want


      13        to support this.


      14             MR. ALLEN:  Do I have a choice?


      15             MR. BROWN:  So is that a yes so we can move


      16        forward?


      17             MR. ALLEN:  Yes.


      18             MR. BOSWELL:  Yes.


      19             MR. BROWN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown.  Thank


      21        you, Mr. Boswell.


      22             MR. BOSWELL:  Thank you.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  I had a question about that


      24        cul-de-sac issue.


      25             After the property has been developed, I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        would assume that we have some sort of an


       2        understanding with the neighboring property


       3        owner that the property will be allowed to be


       4        developed to have the roadway created.  And at


       5        that point, whoever owns a portion -- whoever


       6        owns these lots along the way, whether it's


       7        Mr. Allen or someone else, they become kind of


       8        owners of that street, or at least responsible


       9        for keeping it maintained?


      10             MR. KELLY:  Yes, that's our recommendation,


      11        effectively, because the turnaround primarily


      12        was done, because the easement width at 50 feet,


      13        because there's a 30-foot easement now and the


      14        applicant is providing an additional 20 feet to


      15        increase that easement width to 50 feet.


      16             That 50-foot width is a City standard.  So


      17        at some point in the future an approved private


      18        road or an approved public road may come down


      19        there at some point in the future should


      20        additional subdivision of property occur down


      21        here.


      22             So that private road or that easement width


      23        stops at the southern property line.  However,


      24        the road continues.  The dirt road that's there


      25        now continues south of that.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             We wanted to provide -- if the area south


       2        of that is not maintained to the degree that the


       3        new gravel or coquina road is, that there will


       4        be an area for somebody to turn around and not


       5        be forced to drive further down the road if


       6        it's -- if it's a mud bog or there's potholes


       7        and that sort of thing.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  But in either case, whether


       9        it's -- well, it is someone else's property.


      10        The easement gives us the authority to mandate


      11        this improvement of the road?


      12             MR. KELLY:  No.  The conditions require the


      13        maintenance of the road for the waiver as a


      14        condition of approval.  But, I mean, it's really


      15        between the property owners.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  But what gives us the


      17        authority to mandate that he improve this road


      18        if the property owner doesn't want a road


      19        improved on his property?


      20             MR. KELLY:  Well, then primarily they could


      21        improve the -- or make a 50-foot easement


      22        entirely on their property to bring a road down


      23        to improve it and basically shift the existing


      24        Taylor Estates Lane.  I mean --


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  So if the property owner on





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the north side says, "I don't want you to


       2        improve that.  I want it to stay a dirt road,"


       3        then --


       4             MR. KELLY:  He doesn't get a building


       5        permit or a plat approval.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Reingold, you


       7        raised your hand.


       8             MR. REINGOLD:  I think the issue has been


       9        covered unless there are specific questions on


      10        the issue of the Office of General Counsel after


      11        hearing the full discussion.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Anyone else have any


      13        questions?


      14             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Let's see.


      16             So we -- have we closed the public


      17        hearing?  Did we close that?  If not, it's


      18        closed.


      19             All right.  I need someone to move an


      20        amendment to grant or deny the waiver.


      21             MR. BROWN:  I make a motion to grant the


      22        waiver.


      23             MR. JOOST:  Second.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second to grant


      25        the waiver.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REINGOLD:  With the conditions?


       2             MR. BROWN:  Make a motion to grant the


       3        waiver with the conditions -- seven conditions.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Right.  With the


       5        conditions.


       6             First I need to move the amendment.


       7             All in favor of the amendment to grant the


       8        waiver signify by saying aye.


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  I need someone to move the


      11        bill as granted.


      12             MR. JOOST:  Move to grant the waiver as


      13        amended.


      14             MR. JONES:  Second.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second to grant


      16        the waiver.


      17             Mr. Jones.


      18             MR. JONES:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      19             The amendment attaches all the conditions?


      20        Through the Chair to Mr. Reingold.


      21             MR. REINGOLD:  The amendment will


      22        incorporate all the conditions.


      23             MR. JONES:  And you're doing just one


      24        amendment, not --


      25             MR. REINGOLD:  Yeah, it's just one





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        amendment granting with the conditions.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Right.  As explained by


       3        Mr. Kelly.


       4             All right.  We have a motion and second on


       5        the bill as amended to grant the waiver.


       6             Please open the ballot.


       7             (Committee ballot opened.)


       8             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       9             MR. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


      10             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      11             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      12             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      15        vote.


      16             (Committee ballot closed.)


      17             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      19        granted the waiver.


      20             All right.  Number 6, 2010-149.


      21             Mr. Crofts, can you explain the amendment


      22        on this one?


      23             MR. CROFTS:  This is a PUD for the Daniel


      24        Memorial.  The amendment is basically six


      25        conditions, and I will read them into the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        record.


       2             Number 1, "The developer shall be subject


       3        to the original legal description dated


       4        February 8, 2010."


       5             Number 2, "The developer shall be subject


       6        to the original site plan dated August 12,


       7        2008."


       8             Number 3, "The developer shall be subject


       9        to the original written description dated


      10        February 8, 2010."


      11             Number 4, "Both a lighting and landscape


      12        plan shall be provided at the time of the PUD


      13        verification for review and approval by the


      14        Planning and Development Department."


      15             Condition number 5, "The development shall


      16        proceed in accordance with the Development


      17        Services Division's memorandum dated October 21,


      18        2008, or as otherwise approved by the Planning


      19        and Development Department and the Florida


      20        Department of Transportation."


      21             Number 6 and finally, "The one double-faced


      22        or two single-faced monument sign shall not


      23        exceed 32 square feet in area."


      24             That's it.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Mr. Reingold.


       2             MR. REINGOLD:  To Mr. Crofts and the


       3        Planning and Development Department, I believe


       4        there is a seventh condition concerning a


       5        minimum buffer along the east property line.  I


       6        know there's been some discussion with the


       7        applicant, and so I'm just trying to figure out


       8        if the Planning Department staff has that


       9        condition.


      10             MR. CROFTS:  There was some last-minute


      11        discussion on that, and I don't know exactly.


      12        I'm going to defer to Mr. Kelly about the


      13        resolution of that language.  I think we're --


      14        that may be an evolving issue at this point, and


      15        we may want to listen and wait for the public


      16        hearing or hear from the applicant.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Sorry about


      18        that.


      19             All right.  We will open the public


      20        hearing.  Let's -- hold on just a second,


      21        Mr. Redman.


      22             We have no speakers on this one.


      23             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  May I?


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.  Just make sure you





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        fill it out and turn it in after you're done.


       2             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Jim Clark.


       3        I'm the president and CEO for Daniel Memorial


       4        and for Daniel Properties.


       5             And we have been -- I'm sorry.


       6             We have been discussing with the


       7        neighborhood to -- and I think we're comfortable


       8        with what we've come up with in terms of making


       9        sure that there is an appropriate buffer on


      10        the -- along the property line, which is the


      11        east section.


      12             Our concern was -- is that it's a -- it's a


      13        major whole development project, $25 million,


      14        planned for that whole area, and there was some


      15        buffer discussions that -- or things that we


      16        could not do and it would make it void.


      17             But I think we've negotiated appropriately


      18        with the homeowners association.  I think they


      19        feel comfortable.  Their concern is -- is that I


      20        won't be there forever, to be honest with you.


      21        And I have made a commitment to them in terms of


      22        how we would go about it.  And I think we're


      23        trying to negotiate so that be I die in an


      24        accident or the board decides to get rid of me,


      25        there is some explanation of what we want.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And so we're looking at a 10-foot buffer on


       2        the back and there won't be any encroachment.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  And you're satisfied with


       4        all the conditions?


       5             MR. CLARK:  Yes.  There were some that we


       6        were not aware of.  And so I have to say that


       7        I -- I wanted -- I think Planning has worked


       8        with us very well.  I just want to -- I have to


       9        say, I've got to go back and really research


      10        that to kind of figure out -- because there were


      11        a couple that we were not aware of.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  If we pass this bill


      13        with those conditions, then you're committed to


      14        them, so now is your time to speak.


      15             MR. CLARK:  Yes, yes.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  All right.  Thank


      17        you, sir.


      18             Mr. Redman, did you have a question of this


      19        gentleman, or did you want to -- if not, I can


      20        close the public hearing.


      21             MR. REDMAN:  Well, I need to declare


      22        ex-parte with Mr. Cook (phonetic) and Mark Mett


      23        (phonetic), where we discussed the -- this.


      24             And I'd like to say that I thank Mr. Clark


      25        and Mr. Reingold for their diligent work and a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        lot of time that they put helping us through


       2        this, and hopefully we come out with an


       3        agreement that we'll be happy with the


       4        neighborhood and help Daniel Memorial proceed


       5        with their good work.


       6             Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Excellent.  Thank you,


       8        Mr. Redman.


       9             Anybody else need to declare ex-parte or


      10        have questions for the speaker?


      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  If none, we will close the


      13        public hearing.


      14             I need someone to move the amendment.


      15             MR. JOOST:  Move the amendment.


      16             MR. BROWN:  Second.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


      18        amendment.


      19             All in favor of the amendment signify --


      20             Mr. Reingold.


      21             MR. REINGOLD:  To the committee, I have to


      22        admit there's been a lot of last-minute


      23        discussion with the applicant regarding the


      24        10-foot buffer that was mentioned by Mr. Clark.


      25        I don't know if the committee wanted that to be





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        a part of the amendment or if that was -- just


       2        wasn't included.  I just want some clarification


       3        on that.


       4             If the committee wanted that to be a part


       5        of the amendment, I would like to just sort of


       6        maybe attempt to read it into the record and try


       7        to wordsmith it so that everyone here is in


       8        agreement with that condition.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman, you want to


      10        speak on that?


      11             MR. REDMAN:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      12             I know the last discussion that we had this


      13        afternoon the -- a minimum of a 7-foot buffer


      14        with a maximum of a 10-foot buffer was what we


      15        had come up with along the -- along with a


      16        common -- Daniel Memorial/Secret Cove property


      17        line would be acceptable.


      18             And, Mr. Reingold, is this the latest thing


      19        that we had?


      20             MR. REINGOLD:  To the Council member, it's


      21        my understanding -- I just heard from the


      22        applicant they were okay with the 10-foot


      23        buffer.  What I -- one of the issues was -- I


      24        know was in the discussion, that there would be


      25        a maximum 10-foot buffer.  I never like to tell





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        people they can't do more than 10 feet of


       2        buffer.  If they want to provide 20 feet, great,


       3        good for them.


       4             But I think the idea was a couple different


       5        things.  If I heard right from Mr. Clark, that


       6        they were comfortable with a minimum


       7        10-foot-wide vegetative buffer, meeting the


       8        buffer material requirements of 656.1216, and


       9        that a dry pond could be included in the buffer


      10        area, but Mr. Kelly is shaking his head telling


      11        me I'm wrong.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Tell us, Mr. Kelly.  What do


      13        you think?


      14             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      15             Well, it was my understanding that the


      16        pond, at this point, where it gets less than


      17        10 feet is not bulkheaded, so you don't have an


      18        issue with slope.  So, in actuality, the entire


      19        buffer is able to be provided.  If it was a


      20        bulkheaded pond, then it exceeds the slope


      21        requirement for that buffer.  That was the


      22        original thought on going down to the seven


      23        feet.


      24             But the plan that I saw yesterday was that


      25        the 10-foot buffer can be accommodated along the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        entire east property line.  So my suggestion


       2        would just be default to section 656.1216 of the


       3        zoning code and just meet that along the east


       4        property line, period.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman.


       6             MR. CLARK:  That would be acceptable to us.


       7             MR. REDMAN:  That's acceptable?


       8             MR. CLARK:  Yeah, that's acceptable.


       9             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  And this is just along


      10        the east side of the property, right?


      11             MR. KELLY:  Yes, sir.


      12             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.


      14             MR. JOOST:  So now that's part of the


      15        amendment, right?


      16             MR. REINGOLD:  Yes, that would be an


      17        additional -- what I believe is a seventh


      18        condition, the buffer meeting the requirements


      19        of Section 656.1216 of the ordinance code.


      20             MR. CROFTS:  Right.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Excellent.


      22             And we have a motion and second on that


      23        amendment.


      24             All in favor of the amendment signify by


      25        saying aye.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Amendment passes.


       3             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as amended.


       4             MR. REDMAN:  Second.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


       6        bill as amended.


       7             Please open the ballot.


       8             (Committee ballot opened.)


       9             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      10             MR. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


      11             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      14             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      16        vote.


      17             (Committee ballot closed.)


      18             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      20        approved 2010-149.


      21             Thank you all very much.


      22             MR. REINGOLD:  To the Chair, if I may.


      23        Sorry.


      24             I just want to clarify that if it wasn't in


      25        there, that the condition applied to the east





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        property line.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Excellent.  All right.


       3        We've got all that on for the record.


       4             Okay.  Item number 7, 2010-167.


       5             Mr. Crofts, why don't you tee this up for


       6        us.  I anticipate we're going to have a little


       7        bit of discussion on this.  When we do get to


       8        the public hearing, I don't know how many


       9        speaker cards we have, but what I'd like to try


      10        to do is --


      11             Do we have someone for the SPAR


      12        organization here?


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Indicating.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  No?  Okay.


      15             Well, we haven't really spoken about


      16        dividing the time up.  So what I'm going to do


      17        in the public hearing is, however many folks are


      18        speaking in opposition, each person is going to


      19        get three minutes.  And then whoever is speaking


      20        in support, I'll give them an equal amount of


      21        time to the total amount of time given to the


      22        opposition.


      23             That being said, Mr. Crofts, tell us about


      24        this one.


      25             MR. CROFTS:  I'm going to -- since this was





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        an exception before the Planning Commission and


       2        Mr. Kelly was intimately involved with it, I'm


       3        going to ask him to give you a quick overview of


       4        the background on this item.


       5             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


       6             Through the Chair to the committee, this


       7        application for a zoning exception, E-09-54, was


       8        heard at three separate occasions at the


       9        Planning Commission as a public hearing on


      10        November 12th, December 10th, and January 14th


      11        of this year.


      12             Some background with this, I guess, that


      13        needs to go first is this was originally


      14        built -- this site was originally built, I


      15        believe, in 1956 as a car wash.  The car wash


      16        operated up until at some point, I guess, in the


      17        '70s or the '80s and no longer operated.  So


      18        there it sat.


      19             And then in 1995, the property owner went


      20        ahead and applied for a zoning exception in 1995


      21        to reoperate and to bring this car wash kind of


      22        back to life.


      23             In 1995, the property was zoned CCG-1,


      24        which allowed a car wash by exception.  That


      25        exception essentially fell out because the use





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        had not commenced within a year and the property


       2        remained in disrepair up until 2007 when the


       3        same applicant had come back in and applied


       4        again for a new exception for that car wash to


       5        operate.


       6             In between -- from 1995 until 2007, the


       7        adoption of the Springfield zoning overlay


       8        incorporated development standards for uses,


       9        especially automotive-related uses, and


      10        specifically discouraged those types of uses


      11        within the community and had specific criteria


      12        as it related to the opening of bay doors and


      13        where those are oriented in the neighborhood and


      14        compatibility with other residential uses.


      15             The department reviewed the application,


      16        although we originally recommended approval in


      17        1995, in 2007, and -- 2007, which was ultimately


      18        withdrawn.  But in 2009, circumstances had


      19        changed with the adoption of the overlay and


      20        there were clear parameters in the zoning code


      21        that discouraged the use at this location, so


      22        the department recommended denial.


      23             This matter came up before the Planning


      24        Commission.  There was lots of testimony for and


      25        against that day.  The applicant came forward





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        and had some representation with a landscape


       2        plan, development plan to bring this back, also


       3        architectural renderings to bring the car wash


       4        back.


       5             And so ultimately the Planning


       6        Commission -- my opinion was that the Planning


       7        Commission felt -- although the department was


       8        recommending denial of the request, that, one,


       9        it had originally been a car wash; two, he's


      10        been trying to develop the car wash over the


      11        last 10, 15 years to get it going again and to


      12        get it operating.  And they felt that that was


      13        meritorious and that it deserved basically the


      14        opportunity to allow for that use, given the


      15        plans and the architectural elevations and the


      16        renderings and everything that was proposed to


      17        be done to bring it into compliance with code


      18        and a very kind of aesthetically-pleasing site


      19        development plan.


      20             At that point, I think, during the Planning


      21        Commission meeting, the department recognized


      22        the fact that was the direction the commission


      23        was going.  And so our position in terms of a


      24        denial didn't necessarily change, but we


      25        recommended numerous conditions to be imposed





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        upon it, on the future development, and we were


       2        essentially okay with -- I believe there were


       3        ultimately seven conditions that's in the final


       4        order that you can read in your package that


       5        were incorporated into the approval of the


       6        appeal by the Planning Commission that we felt


       7        mitigated for all of the potential deficiencies


       8        that, you know, would otherwise, you know,


       9        continue a use that was not desirable in that


      10        location, we felt that those conditions


      11        mitigated for that.


      12             Ultimately, the Planning Commission


      13        approved the application.  It was a pretty


      14        one-sided vote.  I think there were maybe two


      15        members opposed to it.


      16             But that's just kind of the background and


      17        the history of it, and I'll leave it at that.


      18             Initially, we did have a denial, but


      19        there's a lot of history back to the original


      20        development of the site and the attempts over


      21        time to reoccupy this use.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Reingold, did you


      23        want to add anything before we open the public


      24        hearing?


      25             MR. REINGOLD:  No.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  We'll open the


       2        public hearing.


       3             Mr. Jones.


       4             MR. JONES:  Yeah.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       5             I just want to declare ex-parte


       6        communication with Stephen Dare today at 3:55.


       7        He discussed his support for the car wash, the


       8        fact that there's very little opposition to the


       9        car wash and felt like the neighborhood was


      10        being unfair to the property owner and that they


      11        were being a little deceitful.


      12             Thank you.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  I'm going to


      14        start off with those in opposition.


      15             My first card is Tim -- is it Beluscak?


      16             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Correct.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Hey.  Imagine that.  I


      18        normally butcher people's names.


      19             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      21             Tim Beluscak, 1437 North Laura Street.


      22             I was at the last meeting, and I -- maybe I


      23        didn't articulate myself well enough or I didn't


      24        give the right message, but I'm the only


      25        property owner on that block who spoke for or in





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        opposition to the planned project.


       2             And there's been a lot of talk about SPAR


       3        being concerned about this particular venue.


       4        And I'm not a member of SPAR, I don't attend


       5        SPAR meetings, but I just -- I live on the


       6        block, I'm raising my three boys on the block.


       7        We bought our house the summer of '98 and


       8        encouraged by the City of Jacksonville to do


       9        so.  And the City encouraged me to build my


      10        egress/ingress off of the alleyway to restore


      11        use of the alleys the way they had been used in


      12        the past in Springfield, and so we did that.


      13             I ingressed and egressed my property from


      14        West 4th Street, and this is where the entrance


      15        to this business will be, and that's where the


      16        traffic and the additional parking will be


      17        required.  As it is going to be an automobile


      18        business, it's going to have automobile traffic


      19        and not foot traffic.


      20             I'm already faced with, at times -- there's


      21        a meeting house on West 4th Street that has to


      22        use the parking lot behind my home sometimes to


      23        park cars.  And some of the rental properties on


      24        4th Street don't have enough frontage on the


      25        street for the people that rent the homes to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        park, and they will, at times, block the


       2        alleyway at the entrance to West 4th.


       3             So my concern is -- I heard a rumor


       4        recently and Mr. Jones spoke of a rumor earlier


       5        that the neighborhood was being deceitful.  I


       6        heard a rumor that there was a potential for


       7        access to this business from Main Street.  I


       8        would not be in opposition of this project if at


       9        some way, some form, some fashion you guys can


      10        write something that says that the property --


      11        business property -- the business entrance for


      12        the property would have to be off of Main and


      13        not off of 4th Street.


      14             This is some pictures of my house


      15        (indicating).  I'm 25 paces from the business


      16        and -- I'm sorry.  I -- I'm just in shock, some


      17        of the things I just heard already this evening,


      18        that there was -- there wasn't much opposition.


      19        I thought Lisa Simon presented a document of


      20        over 100 signed names of property owner


      21        residents in Springfield that were against this


      22        for various different reasons.  No one has as


      23        much a vested interest as myself.


      24             So it's my hopes that the rumor I heard


      25        about access from Main Street is potentially





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        true and that the business owner can actually


       2        ingress and egress his property from Main Street


       3        and that you guys can somehow write a provision


       4        that would prevent access from West 4th.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       6             Do we have any questions for him?


       7             Mr. Jones.


       8             MR. JONES:  Thank you.  I'm sorry.  I


       9        didn't get your last name.


      10             MR. BELUSCAK:  Tim Beluscak.


      11             MR. JONES:  Beluscak.


      12             I'm just telling you what I was told in a


      13        conversation today that I had with Mr. Dare, and


      14        that's --


      15             MR. BELUSCAK:  I don't know who he is, sir,


      16        but I was concerned about the use of the word


      17        "deceit."


      18             MR. JONES:  Yeah.  That's -- he was -- he


      19        made some other accusations, but I just wanted


      20        to -- I have to share that so you can respond to


      21        it.


      22             He also stated that the petition was set up


      23        where people thought they were signing in for a


      24        meeting when they were actually signing a


      25        petition in opposition to the car wash at that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        location.


       2             MR. BELUSCAK:  So my opposition -- just for


       3        the record, I did sign the petition.  I signed


       4        it knowing that it was in opposition because of


       5        the vehicular traffic that would increase on


       6        West 4th for various reasons.


       7             And I didn't want to rehash all the things


       8        that we spent hours talking about a couple of


       9        months ago, it being a brick street, it being a


      10        community, residential community with lots of


      11        children, a lot of children activities.  My kids


      12        play in my 30-foot driveway which accesses off


      13        of the alleyway.


      14             And it's impossible to believe that the way


      15        Main Street is set up now -- you can't turn at


      16        5th, so you've got to turn at 4th because of the


      17        way they've put the medians in.  So people are


      18        going to use the alleyway from 4th to 5th or


      19        from 5th to 4th.  And if anyone believes they


      20        will not to get to this business, they're


      21        kidding themselves.


      22             What year is this?  2008 -- so '98 at 2008,


      23        I've been a property owner, I've been in the


      24        neighborhood.  I've never met Mr. Silas.


      25             Is that your name, sir?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Nods head.)


       2             MR. BELUSCAK:  I've seen him at these


       3        meetings.  He's never been to my door to


       4        introduce himself to tell me he's a property


       5        owner or a business owner or potential business


       6        owner.


       7             MR. REINGOLD:  To the Chair -- or actually


       8        to Councilmember Jones.


       9             Did the gentleman answer your question?


      10             MR. JONES:  Yes.


      11             MR. REINGOLD:  All right.  And I'm sorry


      12        for cutting you off, but we've got a


      13        three-minute timer and I'd hate for someone to


      14        use the extra time in trying to make a


      15        presentation --


      16             MR. BELUSCAK:  My apologies.


      17             MR. REINGOLD:  -- when everyone else is


      18        limited.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      20             The next card I have is -- is this Dan


      21        Baird?


      22             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      24             My name is Dane Baird.  Residence, 1435


      25        Silver Street in Springfield in Jacksonville.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead, sir.


       2             MR. BAIRD:  This evening I'd just like to


       3        point out to -- something that I -- I think


       4        probably bears some type of legal merit.


       5             It says in the order that approved the


       6        exception, in the second paragraph, the last


       7        sentence, a copy of which is -- "The Planning


       8        Commission of the City of Jacksonville hereby


       9        adopts, incorporates herein the recommendations


      10        of the staff report."


      11             Every staff report recommended denial --


      12        Historic Commission, the Planning and


      13        Development, they all recommended denial for


      14        various different reasons.  If you look at the


      15        actual appeal, statements of error, those


      16        reasons are listed there.  A lot of those


      17        reasons actually came right out of the staff


      18        reports.


      19             When we moved here, we moved here -- one of


      20        the reasons we moved here is because of the


      21        overlay.  The primary reason was that


      22        Springfield is a beautiful historic


      23        neighborhood.  But it was very important for us,


      24        prior to moving here, that this particular


      25        overlay was in place to protect the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        revitalization effort that was going on.


       2             The vote that happened during the last


       3        hearing basically, as far as I'm concerned, was


       4        a slap to the face of the overlay.


       5             So my question is -- is, A, how is it


       6        possible that the order was approved citing


       7        staff recommendations when, in fact, they were


       8        to deny the exception?  That's number one.


       9             And two is, is this overlay important?  In


      10        a preamble of the overlay it says that one of


      11        the reasons that Springfield initially went into


      12        decline was a preponderance of auto -- intensive


      13        auto-related businesses.  This is an intensive


      14        auto-related business.


      15             Guy Selander, a local accountant who works


      16        at Meeks, Ross and Selander, basically


      17        pro formaed out what it would take for this


      18        gentleman to be profitable, and he came up with


      19        a number of 30 cars per hour.  So are you guys


      20        telling me that it makes sense to have 30 cars


      21        per hour filing into West 4th Street, which


      22        is -- as far as I know, it's still planned for


      23        West 4th Street.  If it's on Main Street, that's


      24        a whole different situation.


      25             But I just don't understand how we're





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        here.  This should have been denied the last --


       2        the last hearing.  It was not.  All the people


       3        who are against this actually live in and around


       4        that site.  We have children.


       5             Again, someone please explain to me how


       6        this is possible.


       7             Thank you.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       9             Any questions for the speaker?


      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, our next


      12        speaker is Shannon Palmer.


      13             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      14             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.


      15             Shannon Palmer, 1331 North Laura Street.


      16             And I brought my Southern Living Magazine.


      17        Some of y'all have already seen this.


      18        "Springfield, number one comeback


      19        neighborhood."  Very, very important to


      20        remember.  Okay?  We made it to Southern Living


      21        Magazine.


      22             Some of you council members received a


      23        letter and e-mail from me, and I'd like to


      24        highlight some of the few points that I stated


      25        in there.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I am the Girl Scout leader in Springfield


       2        for the Brownie Troop.  I am the organizational


       3        leader for the Springfield 4-H Club.  I'm a


       4        member of the Springfield Mommys' Group.


       5             I bought my home in 2005.  I'm raising my


       6        two children.  I home school.  My husband works


       7        from our home.


       8             I am right around the corner from this car


       9        washer.  My children and I walk daily.  We walk


      10        to our Girl Scout meetings, we walk to the


      11        garden at -- on the 1400 block of North Laura


      12        Street, which backs right up to the car washer.


      13             All right.  We have other people that


      14        walk.  We have joggers, we have parents pushing


      15        strollers, we have caregivers pushing


      16        wheelchairs, lots of bikers, lots of children.


      17             The 13- and 1400 block have approximately


      18        24 children just on those two blocks.  Okay.


      19        They range from toddlers to teens.  Two are


      20        disabled.  Some are home schooled, some are


      21        public schooled, some are private schooled.


      22        They play in the street, they play in the


      23        sidewalks, they play in the yards, they ride


      24        their bicycles and they push their toys around.


      25             Intentionally increasing automotive traffic





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        in this residential area, it's just


       2        unfathomable.


       3             4th Street is bounded by a roundabout.


       4        There's not a street -- there's not a stop sign


       5        at Laura and 4th.  It's a roundabout.  And


       6        unless you know the rules of roundabout


       7        courtesy, you're going to go the wrong way.


       8        People will make left-hand turns by cutting


       9        across the roundabout, not going through it.


      10        You have people that have to cross this street


      11        daily.  Okay.


      12             4th Street is also a brick street.  It's


      13        one of the few remaining brick streets, and it


      14        is narrow and it is residential.  And this car


      15        washer will pose a threat to parking, to


      16        pedestrians, to bicycles.


      17             Think about the Laura Street project that's


      18        going on right now.  There are no bike lanes on


      19        Main Street.  People ride their bicycles down


      20        Laura Street, and they will continue to do so


      21        unless, of course, Laura Street becomes a hazard


      22        at 4th Street.  Think of the automobile, the


      23        pedestrian and the bicyclist accidents that will


      24        occur.


      25             Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


       2             The next speaker is Robby Palmer.


       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.  Good evening.


       5             I'm the property owner at 1331 North Laura


       6        Street.  We purchased this property in 2005 with


       7        a sizable investment.  And we completely


       8        remodeled our property two years ago, putting


       9        another $200,000 into this property.  And all of


      10        this for the revitalization of Springfield.  My


      11        concern is that this overlay exception brings


      12        that down.


      13             We're looking to move this forward.  The


      14        City of Jacksonville is looking to redevelop


      15        downtown.  Springfield is the funnel for that.


      16        It is a potential resource to grow the downtown


      17        businesses and residents, and I think changing


      18        this overlay is a mistake and I completely


      19        oppose it.


      20             Thank you.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      22             The next speaker, Jim Dobson, followed by


      23        Mike Acampura.


      24             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening, ladies and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        gentlemen.  Thank you for the opportunity to say


       2        a few words.


       3             I'm Dr. James Dobson.  I just recently


       4        moved into the Springfield area three months


       5        ago, with a large investment to boot.  While we


       6        enjoy being here, my wife and I very much


       7        appreciate the fact that it's an historic area


       8        and rapidly growing.  The speakers before me


       9        mentioned the fact that it's made, of course,


      10        the Southern Living Magazine, which is


      11        wonderful.


      12             Before my wife and I moved here, we


      13        actually did a little study.  We actually


      14        considered very strongly the Springfield overlay


      15        and found that one of the reasons why the


      16        community originally went downhill was because


      17        of the abundance or oversupply of automotive


      18        services.


      19             And so just in closing -- and thank you for


      20        the few minutes to say just something --


      21        closing, I have a question.  How can approval of


      22        this exception be in line with the Springfield


      23        overlay?  In fact, it seems to be, to me, a


      24        contradiction.


      25             Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       2             Did you say your name was Dr. James


       3        Dobson?


       4             DR. DOBSON:  That's correct, sir.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  I love your -- Focus


       6        on the Family.


       7             DR. DOBSON:  I am the real James Dobson.


       8        You're talking about someone else.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you for clarifying,


      10        sir.


      11             Mike Acampura.  Did I get that right?


      12             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Acampura.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sorry.


      15             MR. ACAMPURA:  Good afternoon, gentlemen.


      16             That's okay.


      17             I'm a firm believer that a picture tells a


      18        thousand words.  I'd like to pass around some


      19        photographs.


      20             First of all, I'd like to ask anybody on


      21        the board if they live in Springfield.  Anybody


      22        representing Springfield on the board here?


      23             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      24             MR. ACAMPURA:  No.  Thank you.


      25             The other thing I'd like to bring -- put





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        into the record is every one of these gentlemen


       2        over here (indicating), not one of them lives in


       3        Springfield, unless there's --


       4             Anybody here live --


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Indicating.)


       6             MR. ACAMPURA:  No, you don't live in


       7        Springfield.  You reside at the AA house.


       8             MR. REINGOLD:  Sir.


       9             MR. ACAMPURA:  Okay.  Thank you.


      10             I'm sorry.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, could you keep your


      12        comments to the --


      13             MR. ACAMPURA:  Yes.


      14             For the board, I have put some pictures in


      15        and I'd like to go through each one of these.  I


      16        have three minutes.  I'd like you all to look at


      17        the pictures, please, if you would.


      18             Have any of you been on 4th Street and


      19        looked at the car wash?


      20             MR. JONES:  (Indicating.)


      21             MR. ACAMPURA:  One.  Mr. Jones, thank you


      22        for taking the time.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, if you could just give


      24        comments.  This is not a question-and-answer


      25        session.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. ACAMPURA:  Okay, Mr. Holt.


       2             Thank you.


       3             The first picture is a picture of my


       4        house.  If you would look, I took a picture of


       5        my house overlooking my yard, overlooking


       6        Mr. Beluscak's fence.  As you can see, the car


       7        wash is in plain view.  The noise from the car


       8        wash is going to be very loud as it operates.


       9             The second picture I have is a picture of


      10        4th Street looking east on Main Street.  You


      11        could see the AA house is on the corner.  It's


      12        the yellow house.  The car wash, as you can see,


      13        resides right in the middle of the residential


      14        street.  It is not off of Main Street, and it


      15        resides right in the middle of a housing -- many


      16        restored houses with single-family and duplexes


      17        around it.


      18             Also, if you notice that there's very


      19        little cars on the street right now, but the AA


      20        house has between 20 and 50 people meeting there


      21        daily, which severely congests the road each


      22        day.


      23             The third is a -- is a picture of the lot


      24        that they just cleared next to the car wash.  We


      25        don't know why they cleared the lot.  We think





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        it improves visibility to the car wash, which


       2        means that they're moving forward very quickly.


       3        Does that mean that they have approval in their


       4        hand already?  That's a question I have.  Are


       5        they confident enough to come to this board and


       6        think that they have approval?


       7             The third is a picture of the AA house,


       8        right across the street from the car wash, right


       9        across the street from the exit.  That's where


      10        20 to 40 people meet daily.  It's a tax-free


      11        entity, but they park their cars all in that


      12        neighborhood and all on that street.


      13             Fourth, I have a picture of Laura Street at


      14        the roundabout where these people are supposedly


      15        going to be turning around, showing the


      16        congestion on Laura Street already and the


      17        narrowness between the two lanes.


      18             My fifth picture is a picture of the


      19        roundabout looking towards Main Street.  You can


      20        see how narrow that street is and you can also


      21        see that the car wash is right in the middle of


      22        the residential section and not in any area that


      23        would be considered commercial.


      24             The last picture -- I have two pictures --


      25        are the most important.  This is the community





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        garden that the community supports.  And I speak


       2        for the membership of SPAR, by the way.  The


       3        community garden was put in.  The car washer


       4        building is 25 paces from the edge of that


       5        community garden.


       6             The last picture -- this picture


       7        (indicating), this part here is going to be


       8        where the children are going to be taking [sic]


       9        community garden --


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      11             MR. ACAMPURA:  -- so there's going to be a


      12        number of community children there on a daily


      13        basis, along with the car washer individuals.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      15             All right.  The next speaker is David


      16        McConville --


      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- followed by Gloria


      19        Devall.


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  David McConville, 20 West


      21        4th Street.  I do live at that address.


      22             And just real quickly, I'd like to say


      23        there's not 50 cars parking in that area every


      24        day.  That's just not the case.  Okay?  Just to


      25        make that clear.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             First of all, I know Mr. Jones is a decent


       2        man, I know he's a hard working man, and I


       3        really feel that he should have the opportunity


       4        to open his car wash.  It is zoned for


       5        commercial.  He's going to create employment for


       6        people and he's providing a service for the


       7        neighborhood.  Okay?


       8             I don't understand why all the opposition.


       9        I've seen pictures of his architectural -- the


      10        things that he's going to do.  I mean, he --


      11        he's beautifying the building.  It looks


      12        gorgeous.  You-all seen the pictures of it last


      13        time we were all here.


      14             I just want to say that I'm for it.  He's


      15        going to create jobs.  This economy is in tough


      16        shape.  I don't know why anybody would oppose


      17        that.  You know?  I mean, people are so out of


      18        work right now.  This man is trying to create


      19        jobs and people want to fight him on it.  That


      20        makes no sense to me.  It's zoned commercial.


      21        Why are we even here discussing it, you know?


      22             I'm not big on speaking, but I think the


      23        man has a right to -- to have the business, I


      24        truly do.  And that's about all I got.


      25             Thank you for your time.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       2             Gloria Devall.


       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Gloria Devall, 7027


       6        Alpine Street.


       7             I'm an owner/operator of a thrift store on


       8        Main Street, between 7th and 8th.  And we are


       9        all struggling on Main Street.  A to Z Sandwich


      10        Shop, which has been there for 30 years, has


      11        shut down.  It -- it's tough out there.


      12             We appreciate the beautiful Main Street we


      13        have, and it's gorgeous and it's wonderful, but


      14        it's -- it's tough times for business now.  And


      15        the fact that this man wants to open a business


      16        in this economy is admirable, and I would just


      17        like to ask you to let him stand or fail on his


      18        own, and let's -- let's see what happens.  It's


      19        tough out there.


      20             So that's all I have to say.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      22             The last speaker that I have for opposition


      23        is Joe Markusic.


      24             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yeah, it's marked for





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        opposition, but I'm for the car wash and don't


       2        want you to approve the appeal, so -- okay?


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Well, go ahead


       4        and speak, sir.


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Joe Markusic, 1727 Alpine


       6        Street.


       7             We -- we've been in Springfield since '98.


       8        I lived there for a good number of years.  We've


       9        been a contractor there, we have a thrift store,


      10        we have a nonprofit.  I have a welding shop


      11        there.  We do a lot of business in Springfield


      12        and for Springfield.


      13             And the overlay is -- is talked about a


      14        lot.  And one thing, I think, needs pointed out


      15        is -- Mr. Kelly said it needed an exception to


      16        be there before the overlay and it still needs


      17        one after the overlay.  So the overlay really


      18        doesn't affect this use.


      19             There are some issues with automotive uses


      20        primarily -- if you remember, Main Street had a


      21        tremendous number of used car lots on it with a


      22        huge empty lot up front and a small building in


      23        the back, and that's really from Mr. Neary, who


      24        was at -- instrumental at that time -- well,


      25        with the overlay.  That's one of the main issues





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        they had with automotive uses, not a car wash.


       2             In fact, since the overlay, at least two,


       3        if not three intensive automotive uses have


       4        opened.  There's a repair shop, there's a Jeep


       5        place, and there's -- I believe the transmission


       6        shop.  So it is not preventing automotive uses.


       7        It is preventing the types of automotive uses


       8        that aren't -- don't fit historically into the


       9        neighborhood, but we still need repair shops, we


      10        still need service stations, we still need car


      11        washes.


      12             This is in -- in that first half block


      13        that's a commercial part of Main Street.  It is


      14        not on 4th Street.  It has an entrance on Main


      15        Street, and part of the original conditions was


      16        that they're going to put a sign to prevent


      17        people from turning right to go towards that --


      18        Laura Street, where all the children are.


      19             I think what you will find is this is a


      20        very much needed business, a boost for Main


      21        Street, it does not hurt the overlay, and will


      22        help everybody in concern.


      23             Thank you.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Excuse me, sir.  I believe


      25        Mr. Redman has a question for you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       2             Where is the nearest car wash to that


       3        area?


       4             MR. MARKUSIC:  Geez.  I think a manual one


       5        is up around 56th or 60th Street on Main, and


       6        there's -- that's -- where is the other one?


       7             MR. ACAMPURA:  The corner of 7th and Main.


       8             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Simultaneous speaking.)


       9             MR. MARKUSIC:  There's a detail shop, but


      10        the car wash would be on -- and there may be one


      11        up further --


      12             MR. REINGOLD:  Sir.


      13             MR. MARKUSIC:  -- around 21st Street.


      14             MR. REINGOLD:  Sir, may I stop you for a


      15        second?


      16             To the Chair --


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


      18             MR. REINGOLD:  -- it's very hard for our


      19        court reporter to try to keep tabs or a record


      20        of this proceeding when we've got a bunch of


      21        yelling from the audience.  I just think it's


      22        important to keep it to the person at the


      23        podium.


      24             Thank you.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.  Thank you,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Mr. Reingold.


       2             MR. REDMAN:  Yes, the -- that question was


       3        for you.


       4             Is the owner of this property and the car


       5        washer here?


       6             MR. MARKUSIC:  Yes, he is.


       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Indicating.).


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  He's going to come up and


       9        speak in just a moment, Mr. Redman, if --


      10             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  I'll wait till he gets


      11        up to speak.


      12             Thank you.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  We'll just wait till he


      14        comes up to ask him questions.


      15             All right.  That's all the cards that I


      16        have in opposition.


      17             Next I have Silas Jones and George Harvey.


      18        You guys can come up in whatever order you want


      19        to.


      20             And if there's anyone else that wants to


      21        speak and hasn't filled out a card, please do


      22        so.


      23             They're right up here on this desk, sir,


      24        (indicating), the little blue cards.


      25             MR. REINGOLD:  If we've still got





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        opposition, do you want them to finish up and


       2        then Mr. Silas Jones speak?  How do you want to


       3        handle that, sir?


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  If you don't mind,


       5        Mr. Jones, if you could -- if you could wait


       6        just a moment.  We've got a couple more in


       7        opposition.  We'll go ahead and get those out of


       8        the way and then -- because I'd like to keep it


       9        kind of orderly.


      10             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead and speak, sir, if


      12        you'd like, and you can fill that out later.


      13             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm speaking for it.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're speaking in support?


      15             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Of Mr. Silas Jones.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Did you -- ma'am?


      17             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm speaking in


      18        opposition.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Then you need to


      20        speak right now, and then we'll -- we'll hear


      21        from those in support.


      22             And just make sure you give us the blue


      23        card when you're done.


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Exactly.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Give us your name and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        address for the record, ma'am.


       2             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Lena Castro.


       3        I live at 1217 Boulevard.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead.


       5             MS. CASTRO:  Just speak?


       6             I'm in opposition for the car wash because


       7        we have car dealerships, car details, car this,


       8        car that, car repair shop.  And I know those are


       9        nice businesses, but Springfield is trying to


      10        turn itself around.


      11             We just got finished with the City putting


      12        in our infrastructure that took two years.  We


      13        lost a few of our restaurants, our decent


      14        businesses.  We would like to see more of a


      15        diversity; lawyers, gift shop, flower shops,


      16        little -- you know, gift shop, a lot of


      17        different things.  We have enough car [sic].


      18             We've got car lots that are empty and


      19        abandoned.  That's what you see when you drive


      20        down Main Street.  I think we need a break.  And


      21        I realize, yes, it may be a good business.  And


      22        I know people have to make a living, I


      23        understand that, I truly do, but Springfield is


      24        not going to make it if all we put on our Main


      25        Street are car things.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Go to Riverside, Avondale.  They've got the


       2        most charming shops, little houses that are made


       3        into retail shops.  We don't have a lot of that,


       4        and we desperately need that.  And I deplore


       5        [sic] you, please give us a chance.


       6             Yes, this business is not on Main Street.


       7        There's an empty car lot and then there's this,


       8        which is an abandoned building.  I don't even


       9        know if -- the man doesn't own it.  I believe


      10        he's supposed to be getting authorization from


      11        the owner.  He's supposed to be going to code


      12        enforcements [sic] or zoning, I don't know.


      13             But not even a hundred feet away you have


      14        brand new SRG houses, old houses that have been


      15        restored, people have put their love and their


      16        life into it.  They don't need a car shop -- a


      17        car dealer -- you know, a car wash a couple


      18        hundred feet away from their home.


      19             We're trying to survive and we're trying to


      20        bring back beautiful Springfield.  I mean, I've


      21        lived here for 12 years.  And, honestly, I would


      22        be the biggest walking advertisement.  I love


      23        it.  It's a wonderful neighborhood.


      24             Thank you very much for giving me the


      25        moment to talk.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Thank you.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you,


       3        ma'am.


       4             All right.  Let's see, we have three folks


       5        left to speak in favor of it.


       6             Mr. Jones, I'm going to, if you don't mind,


       7        have the other two folks speak first and then


       8        I'll let you wrap up because I wanted to kind of


       9        divide the time equally and give you as much


      10        time as you need to fully explain.


      11             So if we could have -- is it Stephen Dare?


      12        And then Pastor Harvey, and then Mr. Jones.


      13             Oh, I'm sorry.  Mr. Redman, I have you on


      14        my queue.  Did you need to ask a question?


      15             MR. REDMAN:  (Inaudible.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      17             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead, sir.


      19             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  How many minutes do we


      20        have?


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  You have three.


      22             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We have three?  All


      23        right.


      24             Hello, everyone.


      25             Stephen Dare.  I'm from Metro





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Jacksonville.  I live in the neighborhood, in


       2        Springfield as well.


       3             I'm speaking in support of Mr. Jones.  I


       4        also spoke in support of Mr. Jones in front of


       5        the Planning Commission.


       6             The debate that has gone on over this car


       7        wash has bordered on the ludicrous.  The people


       8        who are against the car wash have accused


       9        Mr. Jones of bringing the neighborhood down,


      10        suggesting that a car wash would have the


      11        magical ability to increase prostitution, drug


      12        dealing, vagrancy, and all manner of really kind


      13        of crazy things that have been said about the


      14        car wash by people who are not business owners,


      15        who are not people who are part of a business


      16        community, but for -- a large majority are


      17        speculators in the neighborhood that is


      18        progressing towards a more stabilized, kind of


      19        an economy.


      20             Springfield has labored under the


      21        misapprehension for a while that zoning was the


      22        root of its problems dating back to the 1930s.


      23        However, research brings out very clearly that


      24        this is not so.  It was more the change in our


      25        society, the civil rights problems of the 1960s,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        followed up by lack of enforcement in the '70s.


       2        But the idea that car-based businesses dragged


       3        the entire region down, that's insane, frankly,


       4        and has no bearing whatsoever on the reality of


       5        Springfield.


       6             Now, every single one of the property


       7        owners came to an urban neighborhood knowing


       8        that it had problems far-ranging, involving


       9        poverty and crime, and they bought houses that


      10        were adjacent to a strip that has always been


      11        commercial, going all the way back into the


      12        1920s, actually going back to the 1910s.


      13             Once upon a time, people didn't use cars


      14        because they weren't in existence, so


      15        neighborhoods were designed so that you could


      16        walk to the businesses that you had to get to to


      17        live your life.


      18             This neighborhood has always had mixed


      19        use.  At the height of its best times, this was


      20        a commercial area all the way through there.


      21        And Mr. Jones' car wash is no different from the


      22        car wash out in Ortega or the car washes that


      23        are out in Baymeadows.  In fact, Mr. Jones has a


      24        long history of running a very credible


      25        business.  And I think what you're hearing in





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        opposition, frankly, is a lot of panic having to


       2        do mostly with the economy and people afraid of


       3        their declining home values and the collapse of


       4        an economic market.  Mr. Jones' business will


       5        help reverse that decline in Springfield.


       6             As it happens right now, all the way along


       7        Main Street the crime that is creeping back


       8        there at night is creeping back because there is


       9        no business presence.  There's nobody out there


      10        to say, "Hey, you need to get off the property."


      11        There's nobody there to call the police.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      13             Your time is expired.


      14             MR. DARE:  Thank you.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Pastor Harvey.


      16             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening.


      18             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.  Thank you,


      19        Mr. Chairman, council members, committee


      20        members.


      21             George Harvey, 1417 North Laura Street.


      22             We're in the same 1400 block that you've


      23        heard quite a bit about.  We've been there


      24        23 years.  And, by the grace of God, we're


      25        literally property owners there because our





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        church paid off the mortgage several years ago.


       2             We're here to support Mr. Silas Jones.  We


       3        witnessed him tenaciously investing tons of


       4        talent, time, and treasure to get the 4th Street


       5        Car Wash redeveloped and going as a full-service


       6        car wash, not just like the one on 6th or 7th


       7        and Main where they're just having towels and


       8        doing some detailing, but Mr. Jones has made


       9        copious investments, including in his own money


      10        of at least $250,000 to have a full-service car


      11        wash.  And we appreciate his honesty, his


      12        character, and he's already demonstrated that


      13        he's an asset to the Springfield community.


      14             And, as you know, the zoning commission


      15        reviewed all the facts in January and made the


      16        right decision in terms of ensuring that


      17        Mr. Jones could go forward in an equitable,


      18        just, and merciful manner.  And I beseech you to


      19        please go forward in doing the right thing to


      20        facilitate this full-service car wash.


      21             And, again, I apologize for reiterating,


      22        but it's a whole lot different from my just


      23        getting some towels and washing cars.  If you


      24        were to come by and visit Mr. Jones' car wash,


      25        you'll see he's already able to wash cars using





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        modern technology and modern equipment from A


       2        to Z.


       3             Thank you for your consideration.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       5             All right.  Mr. Jones.


       6             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good afternoon.


       8             My name is Silas E. Jones.  I reside at


       9        3038 Ribault Scenic Drive, Jacksonville, 32208.


      10             I don't want to take a lot of time with


      11        this because I think we're a little bit


      12        redundant into this discussion that I'm sure the


      13        council has had a chance to read over some of


      14        the Commission's reports and so many of the same


      15        people having the same concerns.


      16             Starting out, I wanted to make sure that


      17        you understand that I'm on the same side of my


      18        opposition.  I want to see Springfield strive


      19        and go back to the good old days when it was


      20        just one of the outstanding communities in


      21        Jacksonville.


      22             This is my third car wash, so I'm not new


      23        in this business.  In 1995, I invested in a


      24        building and some property that had been


      25        abandoned, as one of the persons said, and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the -- things were as high as the -- as the


       2        building itself, trash, weeds, you name it.


       3             I decided to go ahead and do an investment


       4        as a future project.  I always knew I wanted


       5        another car wash.  This is the third one.  And I


       6        wanted to see if I could bring the old 4th


       7        Street Car Wash back to what it was in the good


       8        old days.  It was built in about 1954 and


       9        started organizing -- I mean, started actually


      10        washing cars in about 1955, '56.  And it was one


      11        of the most outstanding car washes in


      12        Jacksonville.  As a matter of fact, I think it


      13        was either the second or third one built in the


      14        city.


      15             It's unfortunate that a negative view of me


      16        as a person comes out of my opposition when they


      17        don't even have any idea who I am.


      18             First of all, I came up in -- I worked in


      19        the school system 40 years.  I have some of my


      20        former students sitting there with you right


      21        now.  I've known many of you for years.  I


      22        served as a principal, assistant principal in


      23        the school system.


      24             I bought this property with the intentions


      25        of a future project called the 4th Street





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Car Wash back in '95.  And the first thing I


       2        did, I went to the City and got permission to


       3        take down the old building that -- the roof was


       4        falling in, and just brought it up to some sense


       5        of insanity in that neighborhood.  And I didn't


       6        notice that there were any citations.  That's


       7        one of the things I checked on.  There weren't


       8        any citations about the car wash.  Even the


       9        weeds were as high as the car wash.  The


      10        building roof had fallen in when I bought it.


      11        So there wasn't much concern at that time.


      12             And the former owner was a person -- a


      13        family -- George Lindley (phonetic) family.


      14        They started the car wash business in


      15        Jacksonville, and to this day George Lindley,


      16        Jr., operates the car washes on Beach Boulevard


      17        and -- one on Beach Boulevard and the --


      18        Jacksonville Beach.


      19             The reason I mention that -- everything was


      20        just fine when they operated it, and they


      21        decided to stop, and abandoned it, and they


      22        built the Stockton Street car wash and some of


      23        the others.


      24             My point for going that way and discussing


      25        that is -- I just want an opportunity to see if





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        I can do this.  I started investing, I bought


       2        new equipment.  We buy the same equipment that


       3        Car Spa and all the other first-class car washes


       4        buy.  There are not a whole lot of car wash


       5        people who build car wash equipment.  And the


       6        same $400,000 it probably cost them, cost me.


       7             And I started this in '95, '96, '97, no


       8        hurry.  Got through all the paperwork that the


       9        City required; zoning exception, even though it


      10        expired before I could open, but I was never in


      11        any hurry to open anyway because I wanted to


      12        wait until I retired to operate this myself.


      13             And so in 2007, I was ready.  All the


      14        brand-new equipment was in place, 12 people were


      15        hired, all the signs were up, and we were all


      16        ready to go.  And two days before the car wash


      17        was slated to open, I got -- someone from the


      18        City came and gave me six citations.


      19             The zoning had changed from CCG-1 to


      20        CCG-S.  There was something that -- called the


      21        Springfield overlay.  I didn't have much


      22        involvement with that and didn't know what it


      23        was.


      24             What's ironic is I -- the car wash is right


      25        across the street from SPAR, the people that did





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the zoning overlay, that recommended it through


       2        the -- to the City, and it was done.  And no one


       3        ever said a word to me, with all the


       4        subcontractors and all the work that was going


       5        on over there.


       6             To make a long story short, I was ready to


       7        open, got the citation.  Change, can't do it.


       8        So my theory and my thought process indicated


       9        that I should just buy another piece of property


      10        further down Main Street where the zoning was


      11        already in place, transfer the equipment, and go


      12        ahead with -- about my business.


      13             Well, I got with my bank and we decided to


      14        do the due diligence, and we found out that it


      15        was going to cost well over a million dollars to


      16        do that.


      17             Well, I wasn't quite ready to do that for


      18        that kind of money.  And so my attorney and I


      19        decided, let's go back and look at the


      20        Springfield overlay, let's see what it says.


      21        And we digested it, we looked at it word for


      22        word, read every line.  And there was something


      23        in it that says, we will not allow a


      24        full-service, stand-alone car wash.  But further


      25        down it says, we will allow a convenient-like





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        store with a car washer.


       2             Allow me to tell you the difference.  A


       3        full-service, stand-alone car wash is kind of


       4        like Car Spa, kind of like Jax Car Wash on 95


       5        and Lem Turner.  Those are full-service


       6        operations.  It requires many people.  Sure


       7        enough, it's probably a little bit more activity


       8        and noise.


       9             So we decided that we would do exactly what


      10        was required.  We would apply for a car washer


      11        with a convenience store.  Now, this convenience


      12        store was not the traditional type -- will not


      13        be the traditional type convenience store.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Jones, if you could


      15        start wrapping up.


      16             MR. S. JONES:  Okay.  I will.


      17             It is going to be selling only car wash


      18        products.  So my -- so we decided that we would


      19        apply for that.


      20             And I admire the Planning Commission, what


      21        it did.  It listened to all of this, negative


      22        and positive side, and I think that's -- it's


      23        really good to see that kind of thing because


      24        that's the way good cities operate, hear both


      25        sides.  And at the end, after almost three





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        hours, in this same room, in January, the good


       2        people on the commission decided, with an


       3        overwhelming support of the car wash.


       4             We're not going to be there to bring the


       5        community down.  And they did say that they


       6        didn't want cars turning to the right to go down


       7        into the community of 4th Street and make a left


       8        turn only, back to Main Street.  And we agreed


       9        to do everything that the commission


      10        recommended, and we stand by that.  And I -- I


      11        certainly hope and pray that you will be -- will


      12        see the same kind of success possibilities that


      13        the commission saw.


      14             We're not going to bring it down; we're


      15        going to lift it up.  And that red photo that I


      16        just presented to you, that shows what it looks


      17        like now and what it's going to look like


      18        later.


      19             We did a sound test.  We've done everything


      20        that anyone has suggested for us to do, and


      21        we're ready to go.  We're just waiting for


      22        approval.


      23             I thank you for your time and support.


      24             Thank you.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             If you could hold on just a moment.


       2        Mr. Redman has a question for you.


       3             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       4             Mr. Jones, what would be the hours of


       5        operation?


       6             MR. S. JONES:  That was one of the


       7        requirements that the commission said we had to


       8        adhere to, and it was from 8 o'clock in the --


       9        8 o'clock a.m. to -- I believe it was 6 o'clock


      10        p.m.


      11             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.


      12             MR. S. JONES:  Depending on the time of --


      13        you know, the time change and all.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is that correct, Mr. Kelly?


      15             MR. KELLY:  Yes, that's accurate.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      17             MR. REDMAN:  In looking through your


      18        pictures here, this -- I mean, it -- it's going


      19        to look so much better --


      20             MR. S. JONES:  Yes.


      21             MR. REDMAN:  -- when it's finished than the


      22        property has looked in the past here.  I think


      23        this would be a great, uplifting thing for the


      24        neighborhood.  I just can't imagine it not being


      25        good, and every neighborhood needs a good car





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        wash.  I mean, you know, like they said, there's


       2        a lot of car businesses along Main Street.  They


       3        have to get those cars washed somewhere, so I


       4        think it -- I think it would be a great


       5        improvement for the neighborhood.


       6             Thank you.


       7             MR. S. JONES:  Mr. Chairman, I'd like to


       8        answer a question that I heard Mr. Redman ask.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, you answered his


      10        question.  Let me go ahead and close the public


      11        hearing and then we're going to get to our


      12        general comments.


      13             I'll close the public hearing.  Mr. Brown


      14        and then Mr. Joost.


      15             MR. BROWN:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.


      16             One -- I guess I have a few things as I


      17        listened to both sides tonight, and then the


      18        history from the Planning Department,


      19        understanding clearly that this establishment


      20        has been around --


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Wait just a moment.


      22             Sir, we're done with the public hearing.


      23        So if anybody has a question for you, we'll call


      24        you up.


      25             MR. BROWN:  This is just comments, yeah.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       2             MR. BROWN:  But the history, having that --


       3        having that -- understanding that it's been a


       4        car wash since its inception and understanding


       5        it's a historic district -- and one of the


       6        concerns with the historic district, you want to


       7        make sure that -- especially with the buildings,


       8        that they have similar usage, as well as the


       9        description of the building.  You want to make


      10        sure that it's tailored close, if you will, to


      11        what was a part of the district.


      12             Understanding all of that -- but what I'm


      13        also hearing is that there was an investment


      14        made, $400,000 give or take, with this project.


      15        I can hear -- I hear the pros and cons, but what


      16        it really leaves me with -- because if I had to


      17        vote tonight, I would have to tell you that I


      18        would have to agree because of all the


      19        information that sits before me to -- to move


      20        forward, but I'm very sensitive also to the


      21        neighbors.


      22             And I did hear about the -- and I was glad


      23        to hear that there is an option for a left turn


      24        only because most neighbors probably just don't


      25        want the traffic coming their way, and I can





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        understand that because that -- especially for


       2        children in the community, that will create some


       3        problems.


       4             And I guess where I'm at now is that -- I


       5        would make the recommendation, if it pleases the


       6        chairman as well as the district council- -- a


       7        lot of this needs to be done prior to coming


       8        here, and I think that there's some -- a lot of


       9        work that really needs to be done before.


      10             And I want to make a motion, if I could, to


      11        move to defer this and not vote on it tonight


      12        because, I'll be honest with you, as I stated


      13        earlier, I would support it, but I do believe


      14        that we have to be sensitive to the neighbors


      15        and let's make sure that -- and I support it


      16        because of -- all of the history behind it, but


      17        I want to be considerate of the neighbors to


      18        make sure that we're not imposing any hardship


      19        on them, I want to minimize that, and so I just


      20        think that it would be good if maybe the


      21        district council- -- and I'm sure they've had


      22        many meetings, but let's look at how we could


      23        minimize the impact that's going to -- because I


      24        agree with also Councilman Redman, this is an


      25        improvement to the community.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And so that would be my recommendation.  I


       2        move to defer it, and I hope I can get support.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I want to hear from


       4        the others -- council members first, and then


       5        we'll decide whether we're ready to move.


       6             Mr. Joost.


       7             Mr. Reingold, did you need to --


       8             MR. REINGOLD:  I was just curious -- I


       9        mean, there was a motion on the floor -- if


      10        there was a second.  And then if you guys wanted


      11        to discuss that -- or by doing this, essentially


      12        it eliminates the motion if you guys just start


      13        discussing --


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Do we have a second


      15        for that motion?


      16             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  I didn't hear one.


      18             Okay.  Mr. Joost.


      19             MR. JOOST:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      20             Through the Chair, I guess, to zoning.


      21        Originally, this property was a car wash back in


      22        1954; is that correct?


      23             MR. KELLY:  Yes, that's correct.


      24             MR. JOOST:  And when this individual bought


      25        this piece of property back in 1995, it was





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        zoned to be a car wash?


       2             MR. KELLY:  It was zoned CCG-1 at the time,


       3        in 1995, which would allow a car wash --


       4             MR. JOOST:  A car wash is an allowable


       5        use?


       6             MR. KELLY:  -- permissible by exception.


       7             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  So -- now, let me


       8        understand something else.  I guess just through


       9        an administrative problem or, you know, not


      10        enough attention to detail when the overlay went


      11        through, that changed the zoning on that


      12        property?


      13             MR. KELLY:  That's correct.


      14             In 2000, the Springfield zoning overlay was


      15        adopted and changed it from CCG-1 to CCG-S.


      16             MR. JOOST:  Now, in most cases when you


      17        have these overlays that come in -- I mean,


      18        usually these -- the old purposes are


      19        grandfathered in for existing businesses, are


      20        they not?


      21             MR. KELLY:  That's correct.


      22             But the business was not existing at the


      23        time.  From '95, it has not -- it has not


      24        operated, and it was a few years back to


      25        Mr. Jones actually acquiring the property.  That





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        was probably the last time it had operated, in


       2        the late '70s, early '80s, I'm assuming, from


       3        the description of the property, but --


       4             So it was not an operational business.  The


       5        use has ceased, and so any rights associated


       6        with the use that was allowed in '95 by


       7        exception were lost basically because the use


       8        had not commenced within a year.


       9             MR. JOOST:  So you're saying it was -- it


      10        was allowed to be a car wash by exception even


      11        back in 1995?


      12             MR. KELLY:  That's correct.


      13             MR. JOOST:  I happen to know a little bit


      14        about car washes because my dad owned University


      15        Car Wash.  And I hear what the neighbors are


      16        saying because on Saturday morning, those cars


      17        were stacked up, let me tell you, and I -- I


      18        understand what they're saying, but, you know,


      19        when you buy a piece of property and it's zoned


      20        a certain way, as a landowner I expect to be


      21        able to build my business when it's zoned that


      22        way.  So, I mean, it's -- it's a tough one.


      23             Thank you.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Joost.


      25             Dr. Gaffney.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Inaudible.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Brown.


       3             MR. BROWN:  Thank you for yielding.


       4             I just had a question that I would like to


       5        ask regarding the date that the money was spent


       6        on the building because -- I had the history.  I


       7        just wanted to know the date that the investment


       8        actually took place, the $400,000 to complete


       9        the project, just waiting to open up the door.


      10             You can come forward.  I'm sorry.


      11             (Mr. Silas Jones approaches the podium.)


      12             MR. S. JONES:  To answer your question, the


      13        money was spent when I first bought the property


      14        and then I started spending money with


      15        permitting, to take the building down, a


      16        considerable amount of money to do that, take


      17        the old equipment out, and then we started


      18        redoing the building.


      19             So it was an ongoing thing first, right out


      20        of pocket, paying as I go, but it got to a point


      21        when I starting to buy the equipment, I had to


      22        acquire a loan.  So most of the money that I


      23        spent myself personally came right after '95,


      24        '96, '97, right in there.


      25             MR. BROWN:  Okay.  Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             What was the date that you -- I mean, the


       2        last penny was spent?


       3             MR. S. JONES:  In 2007.


       4             MR. BROWN:  In 2007.  Okay.


       5             My second question deals with -- have


       6        anyone offered to purchase your property at this


       7        time?


       8             MR. S. JONES:  No.


       9             MR. BROWN:  No one?


      10             And so if you're not able to move forward


      11        and open the doors, then you basically lose the


      12        money invested?


      13             MR. S. JONES:  Well, if a person purchased


      14        the property would not be the problem.  The


      15        problem is the equipment.


      16             MR. BROWN:  Okay.  The equipment as well.


      17             MR. S. JONES:  And I've -- I've checked


      18        with the National Car Wash Association that I'm


      19        a member of, and they said I'd be lucky to get


      20        25, 30 percent on the dollar, brand-new


      21        equipment, never been used.


      22             MR. BROWN:  Okay.  That's my final


      23        question.  I was really trying to determine loss


      24        here for the owner of the property.


      25             No further questions.  Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown.


       2             Dr. Gaffney.


       3             DR. GAFFNEY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       4             I'm -- as I sit here tonight, I'm just


       5        trying to listen to all of the -- listen to all


       6        of the individuals and trying to digest where


       7        this would be a win/win situation.


       8             I'm somewhat disappointed because I haven't


       9        really met with everybody that I feel I should


      10        have met with to get a really good feel for what


      11        we need.  I met on a couple of occasions


      12        sometime back, and I see a lot of things have


      13        changed.


      14             I'm a little bit -- I have mixed emotions


      15        because it's a beautiful project.  However, I do


      16        understand too as a district councilperson, we


      17        have an overlay we always respect.  We always


      18        respect other council persons and other council


      19        persons' districts and the constituents as it


      20        relates to overlays.  On the other hand, we also


      21        want to eliminate blight.  We want to eliminate


      22        blight and we want to create jobs.


      23             My first impression is to defer this bill.


      24        However, I respect my colleagues -- my


      25        colleagues' opinion as well, so --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             A couple of questions to legal.  One


       2        question or one -- a couple questions to legal.


       3        The possibility -- is there any -- I heard a


       4        couple possibilities -- and I don't want to do


       5        committee work this evening without -- perhaps


       6        maybe we can work some things out, but the


       7        possibilities of turning from Main Street, just


       8        expound on that a little bit.


       9             MR. REINGOLD:  Sure.


      10             The property that is the subject of this


      11        exception does not actually front onto Main


      12        Street.  Now, part of the property that fronts


      13        onto Main Street is sort of wrapped up in this


      14        exception, but not that entire property and not


      15        the part that fronts onto Main Street.


      16             I'm not exactly sure how we essentially


      17        require them to go through that other portion of


      18        the property that's not the subject of this


      19        exception.  That's kind of what I'm struggling


      20        with in order -- if this committee sought some


      21        sort of requirement that they had to access onto


      22        Main Street, and so I'm -- I'm understanding the


      23        concern but having difficulty in how to


      24        implement that through another piece of property


      25        that's not the subject of this request.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             DR. GAFFNEY:  Right.  That's -- I'm just


       2        trying to see if the possibility -- if we can


       3        accommodate the community, accommodate the


       4        property owner to make it a win/win.


       5             The gentleman has invested a substantial


       6        amount of money.  At the same time, I have to


       7        listen to all of my constituents, as a matter of


       8        fact.  So what -- so I'm just trying to get a


       9        little clarity, just a little clarity so we can


      10        respect and not try to disturb the neighborhood,


      11        the community, if that's possible.


      12             Planning.


      13             MR. KELLY:  There's a couple of components


      14        to this.


      15             I believe the property owner on the


      16        frontage, on Main Street, with the adjacent lot


      17        to the east is the same property owner as this


      18        lot.  So there's a potential there, since he


      19        owns both properties, to allow for the


      20        cross-access and ultimate shared access onto


      21        Main Street.  So that's certainly a


      22        possibility.


      23             The site plan, as it was shown, has two


      24        driveways onto 4th Street.  One is exiting out


      25        of the car wash tunnel and one is a two-way,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        inbound for the parking of the vehicles.


       2             I guess the question -- there would have to


       3        be a redesign of the site plan to kind of


       4        capture that exiting movement out of the car


       5        wash tunnel, to kind of circle it back around


       6        and ultimately convey it across the adjoining


       7        parcel to the east, but certainly -- I mean,


       8        that is a possibility.


       9             That was one of the conditions specifically


      10        in the final order was to preclude that


      11        residential intrusion, that traffic intrusion


      12        into the neighborhood to the west of this, so


      13        certainly that would also mitigate that impact


      14        of that.


      15             DR. GAFFNEY:  Okay.  I --


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Dr. Gaffney, if I could ask


      17        you a question.


      18             DR. GAFFNEY:  Yeah, go ahead.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm trying to understand


      20        what you're saying here, and I think I do.


      21             Are you asking whether traffic could be


      22        brought in -- entrance and exit off of Main


      23        through their frontage property and then loop


      24        around in the opposite direction to come out to


      25        the exit?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             DR. GAFFNEY:  Right.


       2             Yes.  What I'm just trying to do is -- is


       3        to minimize.  I'm trying to accommodate -- I'm


       4        trying to make it where it's a win/win for both


       5        individuals.  Everybody don't get everything


       6        they want.  And so in the best interest of -- to


       7        accommodate the neighbors.


       8             We know Main Street is very busy and a lot


       9        of traffic enter -- ingress and egress from


      10        Main Street, so that wouldn't bring a lot of --


      11        230 cars potentially, that's a lot of traffic on


      12        the street, you know, if your house is across


      13        the street or in the same block.


      14             So, in all respect, if we can accommodate


      15        the community -- it's not everything, but by the


      16        same token, the gentleman has a substantial


      17        investment.  It is a nice project.  So if we can


      18        make it where it can work, potentially work, I


      19        would like to do that.


      20             If it's logistically -- if it logistically


      21        is not feasible, then we have no other


      22        alternative but to leave things as they are.


      23        But if there's that possibility is all I'm


      24        saying.


      25             I know some of the neighbors expressed that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        they don't have a problem with that as long as


       2        it's not directly creating a lot of traffic.


       3        You've got children down there and safety issues


       4        within the block.


       5             So is that a possibility?


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  I guess we would probably


       7        need to ask the owner if he would be open to


       8        using that other piece of property and -- and


       9        Planning if they would have any objection to


      10        traffic flowing that way.


      11             Mr. Reingold.


      12             MR. REINGOLD:  To the Chair, I believe both


      13        of those issues are obviously important, but on


      14        top of that, I just kind of want the committee


      15        understanding maybe the legal implications of


      16        the discussion we've had.


      17             And it's certainly -- I'm not opposed to


      18        the access onto Main Street.  I think it sounds


      19        like a wonderful solution to maybe some of the


      20        issues.  I'm just trying to make sure we get


      21        there in the right place if that's the direction


      22        of the committee.


      23             The concern I have is that if you expand


      24        this property to the property -- to the full


      25        extent of the property that fronts onto Main





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Street and you use that as the access point to


       2        the rest of the car wash, you've expanded the


       3        property boundary of the request, of the


       4        exception, and essentially it's kind of turned


       5        into a new application and potentially expands


       6        the 350 notice base, and you're looking at all


       7        new advertising and all new applications.


       8             And that's fine if that's the direction of


       9        the committee.  I just want everyone to be aware


      10        that this may turn it into essentially a new


      11        application that may have to go to Planning


      12        Commission and, if necessary, work its way back


      13        up to this committee to resolve that issue of


      14        expanding the boundary.


      15             I just wanted to raise that for everybody.


      16        That's what I was kind of thinking of as the


      17        discussion was going on.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good point, Mr. Reingold.


      19             Mr. Kelly, you seem to be --


      20             MR. KELLY:  I was thinking of that also,


      21        but I think just providing a cross-access


      22        agreement with an adjacent commercial parcel


      23        wouldn't really necessitate the need for the


      24        expansion of the exception.  You can drive


      25        commercial -- you can drive vehicles on





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        commercial property across commercial property.


       2        It doesn't mean the use is being expanded to


       3        that other commercial property, it's just a


       4        provision for a joint access or a shared


       5        access.


       6             The issue, to me, more or less, was with


       7        the site plan.  And I think we can amend the


       8        site plan through an amendment to order if that


       9        would be, you know, I think the will of the


      10        committee.  You know, we could accomplish that


      11        essentially through an amendment to order of the


      12        site plan if that's the will of the committee.


      13             I think -- just providing a cross-access


      14        doesn't, in my view, expand the use onto the


      15        other site.


      16             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Inaudible.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I guess you probably


      18        need to speak to the applicant about that.


      19             DR. GAFFNEY:  Mr. Jones.


      20             (Mr. Silas Jones approaches the podium.)


      21             DR. GAFFNEY:  How you doing once again?


      22             MR. S. JONES:  Yes.


      23             DR. GAFFNEY:  Thank you.


      24             We were sitting up here, we're just trying


      25        to -- you know, I appreciate you being very --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        your cooperation in trying to work with the


       2        community.  So we were sitting up here -- some


       3        of this -- you think this is -- where we're


       4        trying to go with this, you'd be willing to


       5        entertain?


       6             MR. S. JONES:  Let me make sure that you


       7        understand that the same gentleman owns that


       8        entire block, and he's indicated to me that he


       9        did not want to disrupt the other lots.


      10             And we had plans before to use the lot on


      11        the west side of the car wash for parking and


      12        et cetera, and he did not -- I mean, he just


      13        refused to do that.  And now to think that he


      14        would allow us to use the east side, which is


      15        the prime piece of property, to go across that


      16        would disrupt it to a point where I don't think


      17        that I could get him to agree to do that because


      18        there is a sign up there that says that is to be


      19        developed, and he's assured me that the car wash


      20        would not -- property would not be involved in


      21        that.


      22             So, Dr. Gaffney, I think that that was


      23        probably not going to work with the owner


      24        because that prime piece of property on Main


      25        Street there and 4th, it entails that entire





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        block, but that's the prime piece of property


       2        that he thinks that maybe he will do something


       3        with first.


       4             So the idea -- to think that I could come


       5        across that, you know, I don't know if that


       6        would work.  I don't think he would agree to do


       7        that because he wouldn't agree to do the -- the


       8        west side, which is behind the car wash, because


       9        he didn't want it disturbed with the car wash.


      10             He didn't mind giving us -- me permission


      11        to go 14-and-a-half feet to the east, to allow


      12        for parking and coming into the vacuum system,


      13        but he would not allow any room going to the


      14        west.  He would only allow that 15 feet, and


      15        that's it.


      16             DR. GAFFNEY:  Okay.  Thank you.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Folks, I'm going to take a


      18        little break here because we've been going on


      19        for hours and our court reporter needs a few


      20        minutes to limber up her fingers and it might


      21        also give you guys a chance to talk about this


      22        concept.


      23             So let's take about a three-minute break


      24        and we'll come back and -- and then you guys can


      25        hopefully work this out, if there is anything to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        be worked out.


       2             So three minutes, everybody come back.


       3             (Brief recess.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Folks, I think


       5        that ought to do it.  Let's come on back and


       6        start again.


       7             Okay.  We're back in session.


       8             And I'm sure Mr. Reingold is telling


       9        Mr. Gaffney that he needs to declare that


      10        ex-parte down there.


      11             I believe Dr. Gaffney had the floor when we


      12        were -- when I so rudely interrupted you.


      13             DR. GAFFNEY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      14             Yes, I wish to declare ex-parte.  I spoke


      15        with a couple of the community representatives


      16        in opposition and they was just giving me their


      17        opinion that they're in favor of it only if it


      18        was ingress and egress from Main Street, so they


      19        was talking about they were in favor of it.


      20             And also spoke with Mr. Jones and asked


      21        about the possibility of the entrance from


      22        Main Street.  So he was just -- didn't think he


      23        can get cooperation from the landlord, the


      24        property owner.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Did he say yes -- did you





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        say yes or no?  Did you say he did or did not?


       2             DR. GAFFNEY:  No, he didn't think he could


       3        get -- the landlord would agree to allow him to


       4        have the additional space coming in from


       5        Main Street because of -- footage, because it's


       6        prime property.  So we were just trying to come


       7        to a happy medium here.


       8             So having said that, I think that -- I


       9        think what we should do -- I was hoping that we


      10        can come to some type of resolution where it's a


      11        win/win for everybody, so I'm just going to, at


      12        this time, encourage my colleagues -- we've all


      13        heard all of the different testimonies about


      14        this situation, and I think that -- I always


      15        like to make it a win/win for everybody, but I


      16        just would encourage everybody to vote your --


      17        from the testimony that you've heard and that --


      18        what you think would be best for the -- in the


      19        best interest of the community, taking in


      20        consideration the constituents as well, and the


      21        individuals living on the block.


      22             That's my take on it.


      23             Thank you.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      25             Mr. Redman.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       2             Looking at the picture here, where it is


       3        coming out onto -- would be coming out onto


       4        4th Street, that appears to be, what, a half a


       5        block off of Main Street with only a one-way


       6        turn -- and I would assume that most of the


       7        residents will be back behind that area, back in


       8        the neighborhood, so the actual traffic coming


       9        out of there, if there was a stop sign there and


      10        proper control of traffic coming out, that it


      11        wouldn't create a real hazard for the


      12        community.


      13             And a question that I have for Mr. Jones


      14        is, how many people would you employ in this car


      15        wash?


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Jones.


      17             (Mr. Silas Jones approaches the podium.)


      18             MR. S. JONES:  Yes.  This is not going to


      19        be the traditional full-service car wash.  It's


      20        going to be what we call an exterior express.


      21        That means there will be about 10, 15 vacuums,


      22        free vacuums.  People will come in and vacuum


      23        their own car, do their own interior, and then


      24        they will stay in their car and drive around,


      25        pay station, credit card bills [sic], and then





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        really and truly it only takes one person to


       2        operate the car wash.


       3             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.


       4             MR. S. JONES:  Full-service, it would be 12


       5        or 15.


       6             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  So you'd have one


       7        person in the retail part of it as well?


       8             MR. S. JONES:  Yes, one on each end.


       9             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.


      10             All right.  Thank you.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Jones, I have a question


      12        for you.  At the corner of Dunn Avenue and


      13        Biscayne, there's a car wash that sounds a lot


      14        like what you're describing.


      15             MR. S. JONES:  Absolutely.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is that basically the same


      17        system?


      18             MR. S. JONES:  Yes.  That's Mr. Jaffa.


      19        He's in our organization.  He has two other car


      20        washes similar to that one.  That's a


      21        $4.2 million car wash.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.


      23             MR. S. JONES:  Yes.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  I don't see any


      25        other speakers in my queue -- or, Mr. Brown, did





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        you want to say something else?


       2             MR. BROWN:  No.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Did you have any -- I saw


       4        your name up there at one point.  Are you done?


       5             MR. BROWN:  Yes.  It was -- it was really


       6        more in line with how they operate that


       7        particular style of car wash, and I guess that's


       8        really more user error on my part because I've


       9        been to the one that you're talking about.  It's


      10        very nice, it's not a sore spot for the


      11        community, and I never really see 30, 40 cars up


      12        there at a time.  It's not that at all.  My only


      13        concern with that is I don't know how to operate


      14        it, and I was just laughing because -- you know,


      15        when he was talking about it, I was -- that was


      16        really it, though.  It was just a personal


      17        thing.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Mr. Joost, were


      19        you on queue?


      20             MR. JOOST:  No.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Dr. Gaffney.


      22             DR. GAFFNEY:  Just a quick question.


      23             Mr. Jones.


      24             (Mr. Silas Jones approaches the podium.)


      25             DR. GAFFNEY:  I'm just curious.  I'm still





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        trying to work this out and trying to


       2        accommodate my constituents.


       3             Now, what are your hours will be on


       4        weekends?


       5             MR. S. JONES:  Weekends, 8 o'clock in the


       6        afternoon, 5:30, 6 o'clock in the afternoon.  I


       7        mean, in the morning, 8 o'clock in the morning


       8        until about 6:00 in the afternoon, depending


       9        on --


      10             DR. GAFFNEY:  Okay.


      11             MR. KELLY:  (Indicating.)


      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  I'm sorry.


      13             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      14             I apologize.  I meant to do this earlier,


      15        but I would like to run through all of the


      16        conditions.  There were eight conditions that


      17        were adopted as part of the approval of the


      18        exception by the Planning Commission.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'm sorry.  I thought we had


      20        done that before the public hearing.


      21             MR. KELLY:  I hadn't read through all of


      22        them.  I think I indicated that there were those


      23        conditions, and I've seen some questions come


      24        back and forth regarding similar things that are


      25        already within the final order.  So if -- for





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the record --


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       3             MR. KELLY:  -- for the benefit of the


       4        committee, just to run through those.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's my fault.  I should


       6        have caught that.


       7             MR. KELLY:  The first condition stated,


       8        "Prior to commencement of the use, the applicant


       9        shall submit a lighting plan for review and


      10        approval of the Planning and Development


      11        Department consistent with the Jacksonville


      12        Design Guidelines and Best Practices Handbook."


      13             Condition 2, "The hours of operation shall


      14        be limited to 8 a.m. to 6 p.m."


      15             Condition 3 prohibited any sales of


      16        alcohol, beer, wine or cigarettes.


      17             Condition 4 stated that, "Retail sales


      18        shall be limited to those items used for car


      19        wash purposes only."


      20             Condition 5, the exception was granted


      21        personal to Mr. Jones, nontransferrable, and


      22        shall not run with the title of the land and


      23        cannot be transferred through an amendment to


      24        order.


      25             Condition 6 stated specifically, "There





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        shall be a sign posted at the exit that that is


       2        a left-hand turn only exit."


       3             Condition 7, "Within 18 months, the


       4        property shall be developed in accordance with


       5        the site plan and the building elevation set


       6        forth in the 4th Street Car Wash packet that was


       7        received by the Planning Commission on January


       8        14th, or as otherwise approved by the Planning


       9        and Development Department."


      10             And the final condition also required the


      11        certificate of appropriateness for the structure


      12        itself through the Historic Preservation


      13        Commission to be approved.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  That last condition,


      15        Mr. Kelly, is that yet to be completed?


      16             MR. KELLY:  Yes.  It's my understanding


      17        that they still don't have approval of the


      18        structure, for the architectural elevations and


      19        all that, through HPC.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you, sir.


      21             Dr. Gaffney, did you want to say


      22        something?  You were about to when Mr. Kelly


      23        spoke.


      24             DR. GAFFNEY:  No.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Nothing else?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             DR. GAFFNEY:  No.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  If nothing else,


       3        I need someone to move an amendment to grant --


       4             MR. JOOST:  Move the amendment to grant the


       5        appeal.


       6             MR. REDMAN:  Second.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion and second on an


       8        amendment to grant.


       9             All in favor of --


      10             MR. REINGOLD:  (Indicating.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead, Mr. Reingold.


      12             MR. REINGOLD:  I apologize if I'm assuming


      13        things wrong here, but based upon the comments I


      14        had heard from the committee earlier, I just


      15        want to make sure -- the amendment to approve


      16        the appeal would deny the car wash.  I just


      17        wanted to make sure that was clear to everybody.


      18             MR. JOOST:  Say that again.


      19             MR. REINGOLD:  The commission approved the


      20        car wash; therefore, there was an appeal.  And


      21        thus if you wanted to keep the car wash, you


      22        would want to deny the appeal.


      23             MR. JOOST:  I meant to deny it.


      24             MR. REINGOLD:  Okay.  And I just -- that's


      25        why I wanted to clarify that issue.  I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        personally don't care either way.  It's not part


       2        of my job.  It's -- you guys are the policy


       3        makers.


       4             MR. JOOST:  My intent of my motion was to


       5        deny the appeal.


       6             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Motion and


       8        second on the amendment to deny.


       9             All in favor of the amendment signify by


      10        saying aye.


      11             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment passes.


      13             Need a motion to deny.


      14             MR. JOOST:  Move the amendment to deny the


      15        appeal as amended.


      16             MR. REDMAN:  Second.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion and second to deny.


      18             Please open the ballot.


      19             We're pressing the green button to deny and


      20        the red button to not deny.


      21             MR. REINGOLD:  Yes.


      22             (Committee ballot opened.)


      23             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      25             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes nay.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       3             (Committee ballot closed.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


       5        vote.


       6             Do we have four?


       7             MS. LAHMEUR:  Four yea, one nay.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


       9        denied the appeal.


      10             Thank you all for coming down.


      11             Item number 8 is deferred, as well as item


      12        number 9.


      13             Item number 10, 2010-202.  We need to open


      14        the public hearing.


      15             Seeing no speakers, we'll close the public


      16        hearing.


      17             MR. JOOST:  Move to withdraw.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion.


      19             I need a second.


      20             MR. BROWN:  Second.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion and a second to


      22        withdraw.


      23             Seeing no speakers, please open the


      24        ballot.


      25             (Committee ballot opened.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       2             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       3             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       5             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       6             (Committee ballot closed.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


       8        vote.


       9             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nay.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      11        withdrawn 2010-202, and that would be a


      12        withdrawal with no return of fees.


      13             All right.  Items 11 and 12 and 13 are all


      14        second and rereferred.


      15             Folks, did I miss anything?


      16             MR. REINGOLD:  No, sir.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, then y'all have a good


      18        evening.


      19             Thank you.


      20             (The above proceedings were adjourned at


      21        7:19 p.m.)


      22                         -  -  -











           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                  C E R T I F I C A T E




       3   STATE OF FLORIDA:


       4   COUNTY OF DUVAL :




       6             I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was


       7   authorized to and did stenographically report the


       8   foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a


       9   true and complete record of my stenographic notes.


      10             Dated this 10th day of April, 2010.








      14                                 Diane M. Tropia



























           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203