1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, April 6, 2010,
7 commencing at 5:00 p.m., City Hall, Council Chambers,
8 1st Floor,
9 Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of
10
11
12 PRESENT:
13 RAY HOLT, Chair.
WARREN JONES, Vice Chair.
14 REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
15 STEPHEN JOOST, Committee Member.
DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
16
17 ALSO PRESENT:
18 JOHN CRESCIMBENI, City Council Member.
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
19 SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
20 KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
JASON GABRIEL, Office of General Counsel.
21 DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.
RICK CAMPBELL, Research Assistant.
22 MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.
23
- - -
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 April 6, 2010 5:00 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good evening, everybody.
5 Let's find our places and see if we can get
6 moving on this agenda. I think we're going to
7 be fairly quick. I only anticipate one item
8 being an issue.
9 I guess we've got all we're going to get.
10 I saw Dr. Gaffney a little while ago. Mr. Davis
11 is excused this evening.
12 Let's not even do the introductions. If
13 y'all want to know who we are, there's
14 nameplates all around. So we won't do the
15 introduction thing.
16 Okay. We have one visiting council member
17 with us tonight.
18 Mr. Crescimbeni, thank you for being here,
19 sir. And we'll take your item up first,
20 number 1.
21 On page 2, council members, we have item
22 2009-429.
23 Mr. Crofts, before we open the public
24 hearing, could you run through this and
25 describe -- because I know there's a sub and we
Diane M.
Tropia,
3
1 need you to explain that to us -- or Mr. Kelly,
2 whoever.
3 MR. CROFTS: Okay. What I'll do, I'll just
4 start, and then I'd like to ultimately get
5 into -- Mr. Reingold, let me set the context for
6 the committee, and then specifically there may
7 be some things that Mr. Reingold would like to
8 add.
9 For the benefit of the committee, 2009-429
10 addresses the manner in which the director of
11 the Planning and Development Department
12 maintains the comprehensive plan and the zoning
13 code as it relates to bona fide errors that
14 arise as a reflection of boundary changes or
15 potential changes in the future land use map and
16 of the 2030 Comprehensive Plans, future land use
17 element, and the zoning atlas of the zoning
18 code.
19 We're talking specifically about portions
20 of the City's ordinance code 656 -- Section
21 654.14 for land use amendments and 656.203 as it
22 relates to boundary issues regarding the zoning
23 code.
24 Currently, where it is determined that
25 there are some bona fide errors in the
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 reproduction process or the depiction of these
2 particular category boundaries, the director
3 historically had more or less the exclusive
4 authority to make the appropriate corrections
5 and make record of such by making the
6 modification to the appropriate error or change
7 and actually without further action of the
8 City Council.
9 Records were kept in the appropriate
10 repositories of the City of
11 Planning Department and the office of the
12 secretary of the council. These amendments that
13 we have before us today basically enhance this
14 process; in other words, provide a bit of a
15 checks and balances that after the appropriate
16 detection of a determination of an error that
17 there will be certain procedures and processes
18 that will take place.
19 And specifically there's notification
20 required to -- after the director determines
21 there is an error, that there will be
22 notification to the affected council member,
23 each at-large councilperson, chairman of the
24 appropriate committee, and then ultimately the
25 posting of signs, the creation of a 14-day
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 appeal period by any adversely-affected person,
2 an appeal process with notification to the
3 council president, the chairman of the
4 appropriate committee, the affected district
5 council member, as well as the planning
6 director. And if the appeal is found sufficient
7 by the Office of General Counsel, then a hearing
8 will be held before the City Council.
9 And then that final determination, if it is
10 a -- determined to be a bona fide error, that
11 final determination and final action will be
12 made by the City Council.
13 So that's kind of the process. I know that
14 there's been some last-minute enhancements to
15 the bill, but we do have an amendment before --
16 or actually a substitute with an amendment, and
17 I'll let Dylan explain that.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
19 MR. REINGOLD: To the committee, actually
20 it's just going to be one substitute. There's
21 not going to be a subsequent amendment. The
22 substitute essentially looks like the document
23 you've got in your book with a small change,
24 that if there are changes made, essentially
25 notwithstanding any changes resulting from
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 corrections to the cadastral maps as
2 periodically made by the property appraiser,
3 those are not included as part of this process.
4 Otherwise, the substitute as drafted in
5 front of you is the one for the consideration of
6 the committee.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And that's the only
8 change?
9 MR. REINGOLD: Yeah. And that's both in
10 the land use portion and the zoning code
11 portion.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
13 And, for the record, we have with us
14 tonight -- Dr. Gaffney just arrived,
15 Councilmember Brown, Councilmember Holt, Jones,
16 Joost, Redman, and Crescimbeni.
17 All right. Any discussion on this?
18 Let's go ahead and open the public hearing.
19 Ms. Broward.
20 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I apologize. I thought
22 Crescimbeni was going to open it. I apologize.
23 It was his bill.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Did you want to
25 say something before she starts?
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Inaudible.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. No, go ahead,
3 Mr. Crescimbeni. We're very relaxed.
4 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 If you understood that explanation by
6 Mr. Crofts, I give you great credit, because
7 I've been involved in this bill and I'm not sure
8 I understood what he said to the committee,
9 so -- no disrespect to Mr. Crofts.
10 But what happens at present, the Planning
11 Department director has the ability to change
12 the zoning atlas maps and change the future land
13 use maps, period. It's supposed to be when a
14 bona fide error comes to his attention because
15 every time we change -- every time we rezone or
16 pass a land use amendment, they have to redraw
17 the maps, and sometimes they make mistakes.
18 But the director has the ultimate power to
19 shift those lines. And the problem is, what
20 happens if it's not a bona fide error? I mean,
21 the wrong director could actually direct his
22 staff to move the lines when there is no bona
23 fide error.
24 And what happened in 2001 was our director
25 at the time issued such a directive to move some
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 lines. And the lines were in a residential
2 neighborhood, a neighborhood that Ms. Broward is
3 going to tell you about, that -- since the
4 adoption of the 2010 plan and prior to that
5 even, but since the adoption of the 2010 plan in
6 '91 that they thought were residential lots.
7 So what this bill will do is simply provide
8 a little check and balance, the council
9 member -- the district council member would get
10 notified when such a change was going to be
11 made, the at-large council members would be
12 notified, the LUZ Chair would be notified, and a
13 sign would go up on the property.
14 And there would be a period of time -- I
15 think it's 14 days -- and if any neighbor, like
16 Ms. Broward, if they see the sign go up and go,
17 huh, I thought that was always RLD and now
18 it's -- there's supposedly a correction changing
19 it to -- I think it was LI in this case. Yeah,
20 LI. Then they could come forward and say, hey,
21 wait a minute, I don't think that's right. And
22 they can kind of, like, short-circuit the
23 process and at least have their voices heard.
24 So that's kind of the bill in a nutshell.
25 It just provides an extra check and balance. We
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 worked through this with the Planning
2 Commission, the director and the staff -- or the
3 director is in full support.
4 But late last week we heard from the
5 property appraiser that they maintain these
6 things called cadastral maps. I'd never heard
7 of them. I was here for eight years. I never
8 heard of a cadastral map. But when they --
9 They actually figure out sometimes the maps
10 that they maintain on the system are correct, so
11 then they have to adjust property lines as they
12 go out and inspect properties periodically. And
13 then when they make those corrections, they send
14 them to -- well, they send them to the Planning
15 Department and the Planning Department has to,
16 in turn, correct the lines on their zoning maps
17 to match the property boundaries that the
18 property appraiser has.
19 So we don't want to -- that process, I
20 think, is okay. And that's why the amendment
21 was made today in the new substitute, so that
22 when the property appraiser sends corrections
23 that he's made to the cadastral maps -- those
24 are probably pretty bona fide. I don't think
25 those need to be -- I don't think I need to hear
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 about that. I don't think a sign needs to go up
2 about that. But when the Planning Department
3 thinks or somebody calls to their attention what
4 they perceive to be an error, I think that's
5 when the public needs to have an opportunity to
6 say yea or nay.
7 Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Crescimbeni.
9 A very good summary.
10 Ms. Broward.
11 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thanks for coming down.
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you.
14 My name is Barbara Broward. I live at 717
15
16 I'm glad you understand this,
17 Mr. Crescimbeni. I'm going to have to ask a
18 question of General Counsel because I'm a little
19 confused now, but let me move forward with what
20 happened and what has produced this ordinance.
21 In 1968, when the old airport was sold to
22
23 Bay community, which is a waterfront community,
24 was very concerned about maintaining the
25 integrity of their residential road and their
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 residences. This is a well-established
2 residential community back before actually the
3 second World War. We were there first.
4 Anyway, they entered into a covenant with
5 the City of
7 The integrity of
8 to be a residential community. It stayed that
9 way until 1986.
10 In 1986, some property owners tried to come
11 onto the residential side of the road on a
12 42-acre site and put in warehousing. At that
13 time, there was a public meeting. And at that
14 meeting, the entire
15 And what basically happened is our Councilman
16 then, the late Councilman Joe Forshee, said that
17 this was going to be -- along with the support
18 of the committee and the decision of the
19 committee, said that this was to be a
20 residential road and to enforce our residential
21 community. They were going to put in a buffer,
22 just like they have all over
23 200 feet running the full length of
24 Road on the industrial park side to further
25 enhance the fact that we are to maintain a
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 residential community.
2 At that time, it was entered into the books
3 at the map with the City Council. I think that
4 was done when it came around to show it in
5 1991. Somewhere along the line it was changed
6 administratively. Nobody knew anything about it
7 until what happened, they showed up with land
8 moving trucks to move -- clear land for a
9 warehouse that was been sold in our residential
10 community using our residential-designated
11 residential road. We didn't know nothing about
12 it.
13 That is one of the things that should never
14 happen to anyone who have had their properties
15 violated by an error when the City had entered
16 into a covenant as far back as 1968. This is
17 what has put this forward.
18 Now, I agree, I support with Crescimbeni's
19 ordinance, and I vote that you -- or hope that
20 you would approve of this.
21 But I don't understand one thing, and
22 that's Mr. Reingold's change. And if you could
23 clarify it, Mr. Crescimbeni, I'd appreciate it.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll ask him about it and we
25 can clarify that in just a moment.
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 Mr. Killingsworth, did you want to speak on
2 this issue?
3 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: I'd like to say a few
4 words.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Come on up.
6 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: Would you like to
7 (inaudible)?
8 MS. BROWARD: No, I'm done.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll handle that after the
10 public hearing.
11 (Mr. Killingsworth approaches the podium.)
12 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
13 for indulging me.
14 This amendment to our zoning code --
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you give your name and
16 title for the record?
17 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: It's Bill Killingsworth,
18 director of Planning and Development.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
20 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: Basically, the
21 comprehensive plan provides the authority for
22 the director to make changes to the land use
23 maps, but also within that same statement in our
24 operational provisions of our comprehensive plan
25 is a statement that says it's appealable to
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 council.
2 Basically, what this legislation does is
3 puts in the appeals process that was never put
4 in at the time we updated our code for the
5 comprehensive plan. It sets a 14-day appeal
6 period, which I believe is not too onerous on
7 somebody who might be in a position where they
8 can't renew their insurance or refinance or
9 close because of some issue with zoning, 14 days
10 won't ultimately impact them greatly.
11 But at the same time, it provides for added
12 transparency between the department and the
13 citizens in terms of what we're doing. So the
14 department is in full support of this
15 legislative change.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent. Thank you.
17 Any questions for Mr. Killingsworth?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no
20 further speakers, we'll close the public
21 hearing.
22 Mr. Reingold, could you explain to us again
23 what that one change was? I believe basically
24 it was just exempting changes from the property
25 appraiser's office, which happened probably very
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 irregularly.
2 MR. REINGOLD: That is correct. It's a
3 property appraiser change. I would actually
4 defer to either Mr. Killingsworth or the
5 Councilmember Crescimbeni to discuss the issue
6 further, but essentially it's changes to their
7 maps that the property appraiser does as opposed
8 to sort of requests that come from the outside
9 that people think that their property has been
10 mislabeled.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. But the property
12 appraiser doesn't have any authority to actually
13 change our zoning maps or land use maps?
14 MR. REINGOLD: No.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Jones, you have a
16 question?
17 MR. JONES: Thank you.
18 Through the Chair to Mr. Killingsworth
19 or -- I saw you was coming up. Maybe you can
20 answer this question.
21 Are we talking about changes to the
22 property boundaries or are we -- which, in
23 effect, could impact a zoning?
24 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: What happens is
25 periodically the property appraiser does quality
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 control on their parcel lines. And our zoning
2 and land use lines reside on top of their parcel
3 lines, so if during their quality control
4 procedure they move a line a little bit, then we
5 have to come back and move our zoning and land
6 use line to match the parcel line.
7 So, you know, I don't really consider that
8 a reinterpretation of what the zoning and land
9 use should be. We're just adjusting to match
10 the quality control that the property appraiser
11 is doing.
12 MR. JONES: So when you say "parcel line,"
13 you're talking about the boundaries?
14 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: The actual property
15 line that the property appraiser keeps, correct.
16 MR. JONES: Okay. So that doesn't change
17 the zoning necessarily?
18 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: No, it doesn't.
19 MR. JONES: It doesn't move the zoning?
20 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: Right.
21 MR. JONES: Okay. Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Jones.
23 Mr. Crescimbeni, you wanted to say one more
24 thing?
25 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Yes. Thank you,
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 Mr. Chairman.
2 If this were a parcel of property -- what
3 happened in this instance was that the rear
4 part -- this is Cedar Bay Road. The rear part
5 of the parcel had a zoning district of LI and
6 the frontage on the road had a zoning district
7 of RLD. That's the way it was on the map.
8 That's the way it was on -- and the
9 corresponding land uses were on the future land
10 use maps.
11 The director, in 2001, for some reason,
12 thought there was an error and they just
13 arbitrarily moved this line to the road and
14 said, no, that's not RLD, it's all LI. And the
15 public was always under the impression that it
16 was RLD and they never got a chance to say
17 anything.
18 Now, what happens is the zoning is always
19 going to kind of follow the property boundary.
20 But let's just say the property appraiser went
21 out and looked at this lot and they determined
22 that they had misdrawn it, and this line
23 (indicating) actually belonged over here
24 (indicating), they're going to send that change
25 to the Planning Department and say, you know,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 it's not 220 feet wide, it's 218 feet wide. And
2 when they pull this line back, the zoning is
3 going to pull with the line.
4 They say that, when they create their maps,
5 a lot of it was just entered into the digital
6 system from hand-drawn copies. And they say
7 sometimes, you know, the thickness of a pencil
8 may have skewed the measurements. And when they
9 go out and periodically, you know, look at
10 properties, they pick up these little errors
11 here and there.
12 So the property appraiser is not doing
13 anything with the zoning. They are just simply
14 adjusting the boundaries. And in this case, if
15 you pulled this line over two feet (indicating),
16 this next-door property would, I assume, grow
17 two feet and that zoning would pull over as
18 well.
19 So the zoning is always going to follow the
20 boundaries of the property. It's just when the
21 property appraiser determines that the
22 boundaries aren't drawn properly, they send the
23 corrections to the Planning Department. And the
24 Planning Department I don't think has any need
25 to engage the public in those situations because
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 they're not making any determination; the
2 property appraiser is. They're just changing
3 the boundary. So the zoning is going to kind of
4 ebb and flow with those changes.
5 What happened in this case was they just
6 simply moved the zoning line within a lot to the
7 street.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
9 I don't have anyone else on my queue, so I
10 need someone to move the sub.
11 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
12 MR. JONES: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and a second
14 on the sub.
15 All in favor of the sub signify by saying
16 aye.
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: The sub passes.
19 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as substituted.
20 MR. JONES: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
22 bill as substituted.
23 Please open the ballot.
24 (Committee ballot opened.)
25 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
3 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
7 vote.
8 (Committee ballot closed.)
9 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
11 approved 2009-429.
12 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Crescimbeni,
14 for coming down.
15 All right. Item number 2, 2009-444, is set
16 for withdraw.
17 MR. JOOST: Move to withdraw.
18 MR. JONES: Second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second to
20 withdraw -444.
21 Please open the ballot.
22 (Committee ballot opened.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
5 vote.
6 (Committee ballot closed.)
7 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
9 withdrawn 2009-444.
10 And I want to thank Mr. Reingold for
11 working with me on that one. We'll probably be
12 coming back in the next month or two with some
13 changes to that and related to our previous
14 issue. It's a very good thing.
15 Okay. Items 3 and 4 are deferred.
16 Item number 5, 2010-14.
17 Mr. Crofts, do you want to tee this up
18 before we go into the public hearing? Because I
19 think there's going to be a little bit of a
20 discrepancy on -- there are some issues that are
21 supported by the applicant and some not, I
22 think.
23 MR. CROFTS: Mr. Chairman, members of the
24 committee, originally this waiver of road
25 frontage, which is located on Pritchard Road,
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1 west of I-295 -- the request is for reduction of
2 the road frontage from forty-eight feet to
3 zero feet for four proposed contiguous lots on
4 Taylor Estates Road, which is a -- runs south of
5 Pritchard Road, which is actually a private
6 road, unapproved private road.
7 The department originally had recommended
8 denial on this. And subsequent to that, there
9 have been several meetings. And, as you know,
10 this bill has been deferred from February 17th
11 till today. And meetings have been conducted
12 with staff and the applicant, as well as we've
13 had some dialogue from the staff standpoint with
14 the district councilperson.
15 There have been a series of seven
16 conditions that have been -- that we have worked
17 up and drafted that we feel that we can support
18 along with this particular action, and I'm going
19 to basically -- you know, those conditions, I
20 think we've made them aware to the applicant and
21 he has a copy of those, and we can wait or read
22 those into the record now or have the public
23 hearing. It's your choice.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold, would you
25 rather have him read them in now?
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. REINGOLD: Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's have you do that
3 before the public hearing.
4 MR. CROFTS: Since Mr. Kelly was involved
5 in drafting these with our Office of General
6 Counsel, I will defer to him.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
8 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
9 Through the Chair to the committee,
10 condition 1 for ordinance 2010-14 would state,
11 "Prior to issuance of a building permit or
12 final plat approval, Taylor Estates Lane shall
13 be improved from Pritchard Road to the most
14 southerly processed lot within" -- "proposed lot
15 with a graded, stabilized travel surface, either
16 gravel or coquina" -- and I believe we've added
17 in Crush Crete as well -- "at least 20 feet wide
18 with roadside swales or ditches that provide for
19 positive drainage. All proposed roadway and
20 drainage improvements shall be subject to review
21 and approval of the Planning" -- "of the
22 Development Services Division of the Planning
23 and Development Department."
24 Condition 2, "Prior to issuance of a
25 building permit or plat approval, the existing
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1 private road easement of Taylor Estates Lane
2 shall be widened to at least 50 feet and
3 extended to the southern property line."
4 Condition 3, "A cul-de-sac or turnaround
5 area on Taylor Estates Lane shall be provided,
6 subject to review and approval of the traffic
7 review section of Development Services
8 Division."
9 Condition 4, "The most northerly lot
10 fronting on Pritchard Road shall be accessed
11 from Taylor Estates Lane."
12 Condition 5, "The addresses for each lot
13 shall be clearly identified at the intersection
14 of Taylor Estates Lane and Pritchard Road."
15 Condition 6, "Prior to issuance of a
16 building permit or final plat approval, a common
17 roadway maintenance agreement shall be recorded
18 over the entire property or each parcel subject
19 to review and approval of the Office of General
20 Counsel and Planning and Development
21 Department."
22 Finally, condition 7, "Prior to issuance of
23 a building permit or final plat approval, that
24 an owner authorization or proof of ownership of
25 Taylor Estates Lane be submitted for review and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 approval by the Planning and Development
2 Department and Office of General Counsel."
3 Those are the conditions.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
5 Okay. Well, let's go ahead and open the
6 public hearing. We have one speaker.
7 Mr. Boswell.
8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
9 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: You've heard the conditions.
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Are you in agreement
13 with all those conditions?
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, I am.
15 My name is Dan Boswell, 4014 Ranie Road,
16 Jacksonville, Florida 32218.
17 And I represent the owner of the
18 properties, and I think he wanted to --
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'd like to say
20 something.
21 MR. BOSWELL: -- say something also.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You can go ahead.
23 Come on up, sir. And you can submit a card
24 afterwards.
25 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
26
1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yeah, I forgot to fill
2 one out.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Just fill one out
4 later.
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Earl Allen. I reside at
6 16964 North Main Street, Jacksonville. I own
7 this property on Pritchard.
8 Some of the issues I have is, one, he's
9 saying put gravel or coquina on the road. That
10 road belongs to another man. And that man may
11 not want gravel or coquina on his road. He may
12 want something different. So how am I going to
13 do that to start with?
14 And the turnaround spot, I done told him
15 once the last time I was here, an engine went
16 down there and turned around at the end and come
17 out, and I've got the engineer's -- lieutenant's
18 name at station 53A, P.G. Quinley drive his
19 engine down there and turn around and come out,
20 no problem.
21 I'm not -- can't go down there and develop
22 that man's property for a cul-de-sac, and I
23 don't own that property. How can I do that?
24 Don't make good sense what you're asking.
25 And as far as the road 20 foot wide, I go
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
27
1 out and measured the City roads out there, and
2 they're 16-foot wide. Why have I got to go
3 20-foot wide and the City maintain roads that's
4 16-foot wide? Why are you asking more out of me
5 than what the City is required their own self to
6 do?
7 A lot of this don't make a lot of sense to
8 me. They're just nitpicking, it look like to
9 me, over something that don't matter a lot of
10 nothing. It just kind of aggravates me.
11 But that's all I got to say, and I
12 appreciate y'all's time.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
14 Mr. Boswell, did you want to say anything
15 else?
16 MR. BOSWELL: No, that's --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Brown.
18 MR. BROWN: I don't know whether that --
19 Through the Chair.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have a question for
21 Mr. Boswell?
22 MR. BROWN: For Mr. Boswell.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
24 MR. BROWN: Because I want to make sure. I
25 was about to say thank you to Planning, General
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
28
1 Counsel, as well as the applicant because I
2 believe that the work, the way that it was done
3 should be done prior to coming to the committee,
4 so I was really excited.
5 And my understanding after that meeting I
6 had this morning, that we were moving forward,
7 the conditions was all agreed upon. I was given
8 a review and I thought it was a good thing.
9 And I just want to make sure that the
10 applicant -- so is the applicant in agreement
11 with the representation that he's receiving
12 today to move forward with this? Because I want
13 to support this.
14 MR. ALLEN: Do I have a choice?
15 MR. BROWN: So is that a yes so we can move
16 forward?
17 MR. ALLEN: Yes.
18 MR. BOSWELL: Yes.
19 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown. Thank
21 you, Mr. Boswell.
22 MR. BOSWELL: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I had a question about that
24 cul-de-sac issue.
25 After the property has been developed, I
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
29
1 would assume that we have some sort of an
2 understanding with the neighboring property
3 owner that the property will be allowed to be
4 developed to have the roadway created. And at
5 that point, whoever owns a portion -- whoever
6 owns these lots along the way, whether it's
7 Mr. Allen or someone else, they become kind of
8 owners of that street, or at least responsible
9 for keeping it maintained?
10 MR. KELLY: Yes, that's our recommendation,
11 effectively, because the turnaround primarily
12 was done, because the easement width at 50 feet,
13 because there's a 30-foot easement now and the
14 applicant is providing an additional 20 feet to
15 increase that easement width to 50 feet.
16 That 50-foot width is a City standard. So
17 at some point in the future an approved private
18 road or an approved public road may come down
19 there at some point in the future should
20 additional subdivision of property occur down
21 here.
22 So that private road or that easement width
23 stops at the southern property line. However,
24 the road continues. The dirt road that's there
25 now continues south of that.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
30
1 We wanted to provide -- if the area south
2 of that is not maintained to the degree that the
3 new gravel or coquina road is, that there will
4 be an area for somebody to turn around and not
5 be forced to drive further down the road if
6 it's -- if it's a mud bog or there's potholes
7 and that sort of thing.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: But in either case, whether
9 it's -- well, it is someone else's property.
10 The easement gives us the authority to mandate
11 this improvement of the road?
12 MR. KELLY: No. The conditions require the
13 maintenance of the road for the waiver as a
14 condition of approval. But, I mean, it's really
15 between the property owners.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: But what gives us the
17 authority to mandate that he improve this road
18 if the property owner doesn't want a road
19 improved on his property?
20 MR. KELLY: Well, then primarily they could
21 improve the -- or make a 50-foot easement
22 entirely on their property to bring a road down
23 to improve it and basically shift the existing
24 Taylor Estates Lane. I mean --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: So if the property owner on
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
31
1 the north side says, "I don't want you to
2 improve that. I want it to stay a dirt road,"
3 then --
4 MR. KELLY: He doesn't get a building
5 permit or a plat approval.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Reingold, you
7 raised your hand.
8 MR. REINGOLD: I think the issue has been
9 covered unless there are specific questions on
10 the issue of the Office of General Counsel after
11 hearing the full discussion.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anyone else have any
13 questions?
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let's see.
16 So we -- have we closed the public
17 hearing? Did we close that? If not, it's
18 closed.
19 All right. I need someone to move an
20 amendment to grant or deny the waiver.
21 MR. BROWN: I make a motion to grant the
22 waiver.
23 MR. JOOST: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second to grant
25 the waiver.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
32
1 MR. REINGOLD: With the conditions?
2 MR. BROWN: Make a motion to grant the
3 waiver with the conditions -- seven conditions.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. With the
5 conditions.
6 First I need to move the amendment.
7 All in favor of the amendment to grant the
8 waiver signify by saying aye.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I need someone to move the
11 bill as granted.
12 MR. JOOST: Move to grant the waiver as
13 amended.
14 MR. JONES: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second to grant
16 the waiver.
17 Mr. Jones.
18 MR. JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 The amendment attaches all the conditions?
20 Through the Chair to Mr. Reingold.
21 MR. REINGOLD: The amendment will
22 incorporate all the conditions.
23 MR. JONES: And you're doing just one
24 amendment, not --
25 MR. REINGOLD: Yeah, it's just one
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
33
1 amendment granting with the conditions.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. As explained by
3 Mr. Kelly.
4 All right. We have a motion and second on
5 the bill as amended to grant the waiver.
6 Please open the ballot.
7 (Committee ballot opened.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
11 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
15 vote.
16 (Committee ballot closed.)
17 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
19 granted the waiver.
20 All right. Number 6, 2010-149.
21 Mr. Crofts, can you explain the amendment
22 on this one?
23 MR. CROFTS: This is a PUD for the Daniel
24 Memorial. The amendment is basically six
25 conditions, and I will read them into the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
34
1 record.
2 Number 1, "The developer shall be subject
3 to the original legal description dated
4 February 8, 2010."
5 Number 2, "The developer shall be subject
6 to the original site plan dated August 12,
7 2008."
8 Number 3, "The developer shall be subject
9 to the original written description dated
10 February 8, 2010."
11 Number 4, "Both a lighting and landscape
12 plan shall be provided at the time of the PUD
13 verification for review and approval by the
14 Planning and Development Department."
15 Condition number 5, "The development shall
16 proceed in accordance with the Development
17 Services Division's memorandum dated October 21,
18 2008, or as otherwise approved by the Planning
19 and Development Department and the Florida
20 Department of Transportation."
21 Number 6 and finally, "The one double-faced
22 or two single-faced monument sign shall not
23 exceed 32 square feet in area."
24 That's it.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
35
1 Mr. Reingold.
2 MR. REINGOLD: To Mr. Crofts and the
3 Planning and Development Department, I believe
4 there is a seventh condition concerning a
5 minimum buffer along the east property line. I
6 know there's been some discussion with the
7 applicant, and so I'm just trying to figure out
8 if the Planning Department staff has that
9 condition.
10 MR. CROFTS: There was some last-minute
11 discussion on that, and I don't know exactly.
12 I'm going to defer to Mr. Kelly about the
13 resolution of that language. I think we're --
14 that may be an evolving issue at this point, and
15 we may want to listen and wait for the public
16 hearing or hear from the applicant.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Sorry about
18 that.
19 All right. We will open the public
20 hearing. Let's -- hold on just a second,
21 Mr. Redman.
22 We have no speakers on this one.
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: May I?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Just make sure you
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
36
1 fill it out and turn it in after you're done.
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Jim Clark.
3 I'm the president and CEO for Daniel Memorial
4 and for Daniel Properties.
5 And we have been -- I'm sorry.
6 We have been discussing with the
7 neighborhood to -- and I think we're comfortable
8 with what we've come up with in terms of making
9 sure that there is an appropriate buffer on
10 the -- along the property line, which is the
11 east section.
12 Our concern was -- is that it's a -- it's a
13 major whole development project, $25 million,
14 planned for that whole area, and there was some
15 buffer discussions that -- or things that we
16 could not do and it would make it void.
17 But I think we've negotiated appropriately
18 with the homeowners association. I think they
19 feel comfortable. Their concern is -- is that I
20 won't be there forever, to be honest with you.
21 And I have made a commitment to them in terms of
22 how we would go about it. And I think we're
23 trying to negotiate so that be I die in an
24 accident or the board decides to get rid of me,
25 there is some explanation of what we want.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
37
1 And so we're looking at a 10-foot buffer on
2 the back and there won't be any encroachment.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: And you're satisfied with
4 all the conditions?
5 MR. CLARK: Yes. There were some that we
6 were not aware of. And so I have to say that
7 I -- I wanted -- I think Planning has worked
8 with us very well. I just want to -- I have to
9 say, I've got to go back and really research
10 that to kind of figure out -- because there were
11 a couple that we were not aware of.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. If we pass this bill
13 with those conditions, then you're committed to
14 them, so now is your time to speak.
15 MR. CLARK: Yes, yes.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. All right. Thank
17 you, sir.
18 Mr. Redman, did you have a question of this
19 gentleman, or did you want to -- if not, I can
20 close the public hearing.
21 MR. REDMAN: Well, I need to declare
22 ex-parte with Mr. Cook (phonetic) and Mark Mett
23 (phonetic), where we discussed the -- this.
24 And I'd like to say that I thank Mr. Clark
25 and Mr. Reingold for their diligent work and a
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
38
1 lot of time that they put helping us through
2 this, and hopefully we come out with an
3 agreement that we'll be happy with the
4 neighborhood and help Daniel Memorial proceed
5 with their good work.
6 Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent. Thank you,
8 Mr. Redman.
9 Anybody else need to declare ex-parte or
10 have questions for the speaker?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: If none, we will close the
13 public hearing.
14 I need someone to move the amendment.
15 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
16 MR. BROWN: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
18 amendment.
19 All in favor of the amendment signify --
20 Mr. Reingold.
21 MR. REINGOLD: To the committee, I have to
22 admit there's been a lot of last-minute
23 discussion with the applicant regarding the
24 10-foot buffer that was mentioned by Mr. Clark.
25 I don't know if the committee wanted that to be
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
39
1 a part of the amendment or if that was -- just
2 wasn't included. I just want some clarification
3 on that.
4 If the committee wanted that to be a part
5 of the amendment, I would like to just sort of
6 maybe attempt to read it into the record and try
7 to wordsmith it so that everyone here is in
8 agreement with that condition.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman, you want to
10 speak on that?
11 MR. REDMAN: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 I know the last discussion that we had this
13 afternoon the -- a minimum of a 7-foot buffer
14 with a maximum of a 10-foot buffer was what we
15 had come up with along the -- along with a
16 common -- Daniel Memorial/Secret Cove property
17 line would be acceptable.
18 And, Mr. Reingold, is this the latest thing
19 that we had?
20 MR. REINGOLD: To the Council member, it's
21 my understanding -- I just heard from the
22 applicant they were okay with the 10-foot
23 buffer. What I -- one of the issues was -- I
24 know was in the discussion, that there would be
25 a maximum 10-foot buffer. I never like to tell
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
40
1 people they can't do more than 10 feet of
2 buffer. If they want to provide 20 feet, great,
3 good for them.
4 But I think the idea was a couple different
5 things. If I heard right from Mr. Clark, that
6 they were comfortable with a minimum
7 10-foot-wide vegetative buffer, meeting the
8 buffer material requirements of 656.1216, and
9 that a dry pond could be included in the buffer
10 area, but Mr. Kelly is shaking his head telling
11 me I'm wrong.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Tell us, Mr. Kelly. What do
13 you think?
14 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
15 Well, it was my understanding that the
16 pond, at this point, where it gets less than
17 10 feet is not bulkheaded, so you don't have an
18 issue with slope. So, in actuality, the entire
19 buffer is able to be provided. If it was a
20 bulkheaded pond, then it exceeds the slope
21 requirement for that buffer. That was the
22 original thought on going down to the seven
23 feet.
24 But the plan that I saw yesterday was that
25 the 10-foot buffer can be accommodated along the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
41
1 entire east property line. So my suggestion
2 would just be default to section 656.1216 of the
3 zoning code and just meet that along the east
4 property line, period.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
6 MR. CLARK: That would be acceptable to us.
7 MR. REDMAN: That's acceptable?
8 MR. CLARK: Yeah, that's acceptable.
9 MR. REDMAN: Okay. And this is just along
10 the east side of the property, right?
11 MR. KELLY: Yes, sir.
12 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right.
14 MR. JOOST: So now that's part of the
15 amendment, right?
16 MR. REINGOLD: Yes, that would be an
17 additional -- what I believe is a seventh
18 condition, the buffer meeting the requirements
19 of Section 656.1216 of the ordinance code.
20 MR. CROFTS: Right.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
22 And we have a motion and second on that
23 amendment.
24 All in favor of the amendment signify by
25 saying aye.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
42
1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Amendment passes.
3 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
4 MR. REDMAN: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
6 bill as amended.
7 Please open the ballot.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. JONES: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
12 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
16 vote.
17 (Committee ballot closed.)
18 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
20 approved 2010-149.
21 Thank you all very much.
22 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, if I may.
23 Sorry.
24 I just want to clarify that if it wasn't in
25 there, that the condition applied to the east
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
43
1 property line.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent. All right.
3 We've got all that on for the record.
4 Okay. Item number 7, 2010-167.
5 Mr. Crofts, why don't you tee this up for
6 us. I anticipate we're going to have a little
7 bit of discussion on this. When we do get to
8 the public hearing, I don't know how many
9 speaker cards we have, but what I'd like to try
10 to do is --
11 Do we have someone for the SPAR
12 organization here?
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: No? Okay.
15 Well, we haven't really spoken about
16 dividing the time up. So what I'm going to do
17 in the public hearing is, however many folks are
18 speaking in opposition, each person is going to
19 get three minutes. And then whoever is speaking
20 in support, I'll give them an equal amount of
21 time to the total amount of time given to the
22 opposition.
23 That being said, Mr. Crofts, tell us about
24 this one.
25 MR. CROFTS: I'm going to -- since this was
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
44
1 an exception before the Planning Commission and
2 Mr. Kelly was intimately involved with it, I'm
3 going to ask him to give you a quick overview of
4 the background on this item.
5 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
6 Through the Chair to the committee, this
7 application for a zoning exception, E-09-54, was
8 heard at three separate occasions at the
9 Planning Commission as a public hearing on
10 November 12th, December 10th, and January 14th
11 of this year.
12 Some background with this, I guess, that
13 needs to go first is this was originally
14 built -- this site was originally built, I
15 believe, in 1956 as a car wash. The car wash
16 operated up until at some point, I guess, in the
17 '70s or the '80s and no longer operated. So
18 there it sat.
19 And then in 1995, the property owner went
20 ahead and applied for a zoning exception in 1995
21 to reoperate and to bring this car wash kind of
22 back to life.
23 In 1995, the property was zoned CCG-1,
24 which allowed a car wash by exception. That
25 exception essentially fell out because the use
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
45
1 had not commenced within a year and the property
2 remained in disrepair up until 2007 when the
3 same applicant had come back in and applied
4 again for a new exception for that car wash to
5 operate.
6 In between -- from 1995 until 2007, the
7 adoption of the Springfield zoning overlay
8 incorporated development standards for uses,
9 especially automotive-related uses, and
10 specifically discouraged those types of uses
11 within the community and had specific criteria
12 as it related to the opening of bay doors and
13 where those are oriented in the neighborhood and
14 compatibility with other residential uses.
15 The department reviewed the application,
16 although we originally recommended approval in
17 1995, in 2007, and -- 2007, which was ultimately
18 withdrawn. But in 2009, circumstances had
19 changed with the adoption of the overlay and
20 there were clear parameters in the zoning code
21 that discouraged the use at this location, so
22 the department recommended denial.
23 This matter came up before the Planning
24 Commission. There was lots of testimony for and
25 against that day. The applicant came forward
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
46
1 and had some representation with a landscape
2 plan, development plan to bring this back, also
3 architectural renderings to bring the car wash
4 back.
5 And so ultimately the Planning
6 Commission -- my opinion was that the Planning
7 Commission felt -- although the department was
8 recommending denial of the request, that, one,
9 it had originally been a car wash; two, he's
10 been trying to develop the car wash over the
11 last 10, 15 years to get it going again and to
12 get it operating. And they felt that that was
13 meritorious and that it deserved basically the
14 opportunity to allow for that use, given the
15 plans and the architectural elevations and the
16 renderings and everything that was proposed to
17 be done to bring it into compliance with code
18 and a very kind of aesthetically-pleasing site
19 development plan.
20 At that point, I think, during the Planning
21 Commission meeting, the department recognized
22 the fact that was the direction the commission
23 was going. And so our position in terms of a
24 denial didn't necessarily change, but we
25 recommended numerous conditions to be imposed
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
47
1 upon it, on the future development, and we were
2 essentially okay with -- I believe there were
3 ultimately seven conditions that's in the final
4 order that you can read in your package that
5 were incorporated into the approval of the
6 appeal by the Planning Commission that we felt
7 mitigated for all of the potential deficiencies
8 that, you know, would otherwise, you know,
9 continue a use that was not desirable in that
10 location, we felt that those conditions
11 mitigated for that.
12 Ultimately, the Planning Commission
13 approved the application. It was a pretty
14 one-sided vote. I think there were maybe two
15 members opposed to it.
16 But that's just kind of the background and
17 the history of it, and I'll leave it at that.
18 Initially, we did have a denial, but
19 there's a lot of history back to the original
20 development of the site and the attempts over
21 time to reoccupy this use.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Reingold, did you
23 want to add anything before we open the public
24 hearing?
25 MR. REINGOLD: No.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
48
1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We'll open the
2 public hearing.
3 Mr. Jones.
4 MR. JONES: Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 I just want to declare ex-parte
6 communication with Stephen Dare today at 3:55.
7 He discussed his support for the car wash, the
8 fact that there's very little opposition to the
9 car wash and felt like the neighborhood was
10 being unfair to the property owner and that they
11 were being a little deceitful.
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I'm going to
14 start off with those in opposition.
15 My first card is Tim -- is it Beluscak?
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Correct.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Hey. Imagine that. I
18 normally butcher people's names.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
21 Tim Beluscak, 1437 North Laura Street.
22 I was at the last meeting, and I -- maybe I
23 didn't articulate myself well enough or I didn't
24 give the right message, but I'm the only
25 property owner on that block who spoke for or in
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
49
1 opposition to the planned project.
2 And there's been a lot of talk about SPAR
3 being concerned about this particular venue.
4 And I'm not a member of SPAR, I don't attend
5 SPAR meetings, but I just -- I live on the
6 block, I'm raising my three boys on the block.
7 We bought our house the summer of '98 and
8 encouraged by the City of Jacksonville to do
9 so. And the City encouraged me to build my
10 egress/ingress off of the alleyway to restore
11 use of the alleys the way they had been used in
12 the past in Springfield, and so we did that.
13 I ingressed and egressed my property from
14 West 4th Street, and this is where the entrance
15 to this business will be, and that's where the
16 traffic and the additional parking will be
17 required. As it is going to be an automobile
18 business, it's going to have automobile traffic
19 and not foot traffic.
20 I'm already faced with, at times -- there's
21 a meeting house on West 4th Street that has to
22 use the parking lot behind my home sometimes to
23 park cars. And some of the rental properties on
24 4th Street don't have enough frontage on the
25 street for the people that rent the homes to
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
50
1 park, and they will, at times, block the
2 alleyway at the entrance to West 4th.
3 So my concern is -- I heard a rumor
4 recently and Mr. Jones spoke of a rumor earlier
5 that the neighborhood was being deceitful. I
6 heard a rumor that there was a potential for
7 access to this business from Main Street. I
8 would not be in opposition of this project if at
9 some way, some form, some fashion you guys can
10 write something that says that the property --
11 business property -- the business entrance for
12 the property would have to be off of Main and
13 not off of 4th Street.
14 This is some pictures of my house
15 (indicating). I'm 25 paces from the business
16 and -- I'm sorry. I -- I'm just in shock, some
17 of the things I just heard already this evening,
18 that there was -- there wasn't much opposition.
19 I thought Lisa Simon presented a document of
20 over 100 signed names of property owner
21 residents in Springfield that were against this
22 for various different reasons. No one has as
23 much a vested interest as myself.
24 So it's my hopes that the rumor I heard
25 about access from Main Street is potentially
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
51
1 true and that the business owner can actually
2 ingress and egress his property from Main Street
3 and that you guys can somehow write a provision
4 that would prevent access from West 4th.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
6 Do we have any questions for him?
7 Mr. Jones.
8 MR. JONES: Thank you. I'm sorry. I
9 didn't get your last name.
10 MR. BELUSCAK: Tim Beluscak.
11 MR. JONES: Beluscak.
12 I'm just telling you what I was told in a
13 conversation today that I had with Mr. Dare, and
14 that's --
15 MR. BELUSCAK: I don't know who he is, sir,
16 but I was concerned about the use of the word
17 "deceit."
18 MR. JONES: Yeah. That's -- he was -- he
19 made some other accusations, but I just wanted
20 to -- I have to share that so you can respond to
21 it.
22 He also stated that the petition was set up
23 where people thought they were signing in for a
24 meeting when they were actually signing a
25 petition in opposition to the car wash at that
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1 location.
2 MR. BELUSCAK: So my opposition -- just for
3 the record, I did sign the petition. I signed
4 it knowing that it was in opposition because of
5 the vehicular traffic that would increase on
6 West 4th for various reasons.
7 And I didn't want to rehash all the things
8 that we spent hours talking about a couple of
9 months ago, it being a brick street, it being a
10 community, residential community with lots of
11 children, a lot of children activities. My kids
12 play in my 30-foot driveway which accesses off
13 of the alleyway.
14 And it's impossible to believe that the way
15 Main Street is set up now -- you can't turn at
16 5th, so you've got to turn at 4th because of the
17 way they've put the medians in. So people are
18 going to use the alleyway from 4th to 5th or
19 from 5th to 4th. And if anyone believes they
20 will not to get to this business, they're
21 kidding themselves.
22 What year is this? 2008 -- so '98 at 2008,
23 I've been a property owner, I've been in the
24 neighborhood. I've never met Mr. Silas.
25 Is that your name, sir?
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Nods head.)
2 MR. BELUSCAK: I've seen him at these
3 meetings. He's never been to my door to
4 introduce himself to tell me he's a property
5 owner or a business owner or potential business
6 owner.
7 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair -- or actually
8 to Councilmember Jones.
9 Did the gentleman answer your question?
10 MR. JONES: Yes.
11 MR. REINGOLD: All right. And I'm sorry
12 for cutting you off, but we've got a
13 three-minute timer and I'd hate for someone to
14 use the extra time in trying to make a
15 presentation --
16 MR. BELUSCAK: My apologies.
17 MR. REINGOLD: -- when everyone else is
18 limited.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
20 The next card I have is -- is this Dan
21 Baird?
22 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
24 My name is Dane Baird. Residence, 1435
25 Silver Street in Springfield in Jacksonville.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, sir.
2 MR. BAIRD: This evening I'd just like to
3 point out to -- something that I -- I think
4 probably bears some type of legal merit.
5 It says in the order that approved the
6 exception, in the second paragraph, the last
7 sentence, a copy of which is -- "The Planning
8 Commission of the City of Jacksonville hereby
9 adopts, incorporates herein the recommendations
10 of the staff report."
11 Every staff report recommended denial --
12 Historic Commission, the Planning and
13 Development, they all recommended denial for
14 various different reasons. If you look at the
15 actual appeal, statements of error, those
16 reasons are listed there. A lot of those
17 reasons actually came right out of the staff
18 reports.
19 When we moved here, we moved here -- one of
20 the reasons we moved here is because of the
21 overlay. The primary reason was that
22 Springfield is a beautiful historic
23 neighborhood. But it was very important for us,
24 prior to moving here, that this particular
25 overlay was in place to protect the
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1 revitalization effort that was going on.
2 The vote that happened during the last
3 hearing basically, as far as I'm concerned, was
4 a slap to the face of the overlay.
5 So my question is -- is, A, how is it
6 possible that the order was approved citing
7 staff recommendations when, in fact, they were
8 to deny the exception? That's number one.
9 And two is, is this overlay important? In
10 a preamble of the overlay it says that one of
11 the reasons that Springfield initially went into
12 decline was a preponderance of auto -- intensive
13 auto-related businesses. This is an intensive
14 auto-related business.
15 Guy Selander, a local accountant who works
16 at Meeks, Ross and Selander, basically
17 pro formaed out what it would take for this
18 gentleman to be profitable, and he came up with
19 a number of 30 cars per hour. So are you guys
20 telling me that it makes sense to have 30 cars
21 per hour filing into West 4th Street, which
22 is -- as far as I know, it's still planned for
23 West 4th Street. If it's on Main Street, that's
24 a whole different situation.
25 But I just don't understand how we're
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1 here. This should have been denied the last --
2 the last hearing. It was not. All the people
3 who are against this actually live in and around
4 that site. We have children.
5 Again, someone please explain to me how
6 this is possible.
7 Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
9 Any questions for the speaker?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, our next
12 speaker is Shannon Palmer.
13 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
15 Shannon Palmer, 1331 North Laura Street.
16 And I brought my Southern Living Magazine.
17 Some of y'all have already seen this.
18 "Springfield, number one comeback
19 neighborhood." Very, very important to
20 remember. Okay? We made it to Southern Living
21 Magazine.
22 Some of you council members received a
23 letter and e-mail from me, and I'd like to
24 highlight some of the few points that I stated
25 in there.
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1 I am the Girl Scout leader in Springfield
2 for the Brownie Troop. I am the organizational
3 leader for the Springfield 4-H Club. I'm a
4 member of the Springfield Mommys' Group.
5 I bought my home in 2005. I'm raising my
6 two children. I home school. My husband works
7 from our home.
8 I am right around the corner from this car
9 washer. My children and I walk daily. We walk
10 to our Girl Scout meetings, we walk to the
11 garden at -- on the 1400 block of North Laura
12 Street, which backs right up to the car washer.
13 All right. We have other people that
14 walk. We have joggers, we have parents pushing
15 strollers, we have caregivers pushing
16 wheelchairs, lots of bikers, lots of children.
17 The 13- and 1400 block have approximately
18 24 children just on those two blocks. Okay.
19 They range from toddlers to teens. Two are
20 disabled. Some are home schooled, some are
21 public schooled, some are private schooled.
22 They play in the street, they play in the
23 sidewalks, they play in the yards, they ride
24 their bicycles and they push their toys around.
25 Intentionally increasing automotive traffic
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1 in this residential area, it's just
2 unfathomable.
3 4th Street is bounded by a roundabout.
4 There's not a street -- there's not a stop sign
5 at Laura and 4th. It's a roundabout. And
6 unless you know the rules of roundabout
7 courtesy, you're going to go the wrong way.
8 People will make left-hand turns by cutting
9 across the roundabout, not going through it.
10 You have people that have to cross this street
11 daily. Okay.
12 4th Street is also a brick street. It's
13 one of the few remaining brick streets, and it
14 is narrow and it is residential. And this car
15 washer will pose a threat to parking, to
16 pedestrians, to bicycles.
17 Think about the Laura Street project that's
18 going on right now. There are no bike lanes on
19 Main Street. People ride their bicycles down
20 Laura Street, and they will continue to do so
21 unless, of course, Laura Street becomes a hazard
22 at 4th Street. Think of the automobile, the
23 pedestrian and the bicyclist accidents that will
24 occur.
25 Thank you.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
2 The next speaker is Robby Palmer.
3 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. Good evening.
5 I'm the property owner at 1331 North Laura
6 Street. We purchased this property in 2005 with
7 a sizable investment. And we completely
8 remodeled our property two years ago, putting
9 another $200,000 into this property. And all of
10 this for the revitalization of Springfield. My
11 concern is that this overlay exception brings
12 that down.
13 We're looking to move this forward. The
14 City of Jacksonville is looking to redevelop
15 downtown. Springfield is the funnel for that.
16 It is a potential resource to grow the downtown
17 businesses and residents, and I think changing
18 this overlay is a mistake and I completely
19 oppose it.
20 Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
22 The next speaker, Jim Dobson, followed by
23 Mike Acampura.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening, ladies and
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1 gentlemen. Thank you for the opportunity to say
2 a few words.
3 I'm Dr. James Dobson. I just recently
4 moved into the Springfield area three months
5 ago, with a large investment to boot. While we
6 enjoy being here, my wife and I very much
7 appreciate the fact that it's an historic area
8 and rapidly growing. The speakers before me
9 mentioned the fact that it's made, of course,
10 the Southern Living Magazine, which is
11 wonderful.
12 Before my wife and I moved here, we
13 actually did a little study. We actually
14 considered very strongly the Springfield overlay
15 and found that one of the reasons why the
16 community originally went downhill was because
17 of the abundance or oversupply of automotive
18 services.
19 And so just in closing -- and thank you for
20 the few minutes to say just something --
21 closing, I have a question. How can approval of
22 this exception be in line with the Springfield
23 overlay? In fact, it seems to be, to me, a
24 contradiction.
25 Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
2 Did you say your name was Dr. James
3 Dobson?
4 DR. DOBSON: That's correct, sir.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I love your -- Focus
6 on the Family.
7 DR. DOBSON: I am the real James Dobson.
8 You're talking about someone else.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for clarifying,
10 sir.
11 Mike Acampura. Did I get that right?
12 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Acampura.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry.
15 MR. ACAMPURA: Good afternoon, gentlemen.
16 That's okay.
17 I'm a firm believer that a picture tells a
18 thousand words. I'd like to pass around some
19 photographs.
20 First of all, I'd like to ask anybody on
21 the board if they live in Springfield. Anybody
22 representing Springfield on the board here?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 MR. ACAMPURA: No. Thank you.
25 The other thing I'd like to bring -- put
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1 into the record is every one of these gentlemen
2 over here (indicating), not one of them lives in
3 Springfield, unless there's --
4 Anybody here live --
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
6 MR. ACAMPURA: No, you don't live in
7 Springfield. You reside at the AA house.
8 MR. REINGOLD: Sir.
9 MR. ACAMPURA: Okay. Thank you.
10 I'm sorry.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, could you keep your
12 comments to the --
13 MR. ACAMPURA: Yes.
14 For the board, I have put some pictures in
15 and I'd like to go through each one of these. I
16 have three minutes. I'd like you all to look at
17 the pictures, please, if you would.
18 Have any of you been on 4th Street and
19 looked at the car wash?
20 MR. JONES: (Indicating.)
21 MR. ACAMPURA: One. Mr. Jones, thank you
22 for taking the time.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, if you could just give
24 comments. This is not a question-and-answer
25 session.
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1 MR. ACAMPURA: Okay, Mr. Holt.
2 Thank you.
3 The first picture is a picture of my
4 house. If you would look, I took a picture of
5 my house overlooking my yard, overlooking
6 Mr. Beluscak's fence. As you can see, the car
7 wash is in plain view. The noise from the car
8 wash is going to be very loud as it operates.
9 The second picture I have is a picture of
10 4th Street looking east on Main Street. You
11 could see the AA house is on the corner. It's
12 the yellow house. The car wash, as you can see,
13 resides right in the middle of the residential
14 street. It is not off of Main Street, and it
15 resides right in the middle of a housing -- many
16 restored houses with single-family and duplexes
17 around it.
18 Also, if you notice that there's very
19 little cars on the street right now, but the AA
20 house has between 20 and 50 people meeting there
21 daily, which severely congests the road each
22 day.
23 The third is a -- is a picture of the lot
24 that they just cleared next to the car wash. We
25 don't know why they cleared the lot. We think
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1 it improves visibility to the car wash, which
2 means that they're moving forward very quickly.
3 Does that mean that they have approval in their
4 hand already? That's a question I have. Are
5 they confident enough to come to this board and
6 think that they have approval?
7 The third is a picture of the AA house,
8 right across the street from the car wash, right
9 across the street from the exit. That's where
10 20 to 40 people meet daily. It's a tax-free
11 entity, but they park their cars all in that
12 neighborhood and all on that street.
13 Fourth, I have a picture of Laura Street at
14 the roundabout where these people are supposedly
15 going to be turning around, showing the
16 congestion on Laura Street already and the
17 narrowness between the two lanes.
18 My fifth picture is a picture of the
19 roundabout looking towards Main Street. You can
20 see how narrow that street is and you can also
21 see that the car wash is right in the middle of
22 the residential section and not in any area that
23 would be considered commercial.
24 The last picture -- I have two pictures --
25 are the most important. This is the community
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1 garden that the community supports. And I speak
2 for the membership of SPAR, by the way. The
3 community garden was put in. The car washer
4 building is 25 paces from the edge of that
5 community garden.
6 The last picture -- this picture
7 (indicating), this part here is going to be
8 where the children are going to be taking [sic]
9 community garden --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
11 MR. ACAMPURA: -- so there's going to be a
12 number of community children there on a daily
13 basis, along with the car washer individuals.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
15 All right. The next speaker is David
16 McConville --
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: -- followed by Gloria
19 Devall.
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: David McConville, 20 West
21 4th Street. I do live at that address.
22 And just real quickly, I'd like to say
23 there's not 50 cars parking in that area every
24 day. That's just not the case. Okay? Just to
25 make that clear.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 First of all, I know Mr. Jones is a decent
2 man, I know he's a hard working man, and I
3 really feel that he should have the opportunity
4 to open his car wash. It is zoned for
5 commercial. He's going to create employment for
6 people and he's providing a service for the
7 neighborhood. Okay?
8 I don't understand why all the opposition.
9 I've seen pictures of his architectural -- the
10 things that he's going to do. I mean, he --
11 he's beautifying the building. It looks
12 gorgeous. You-all seen the pictures of it last
13 time we were all here.
14 I just want to say that I'm for it. He's
15 going to create jobs. This economy is in tough
16 shape. I don't know why anybody would oppose
17 that. You know? I mean, people are so out of
18 work right now. This man is trying to create
19 jobs and people want to fight him on it. That
20 makes no sense to me. It's zoned commercial.
21 Why are we even here discussing it, you know?
22 I'm not big on speaking, but I think the
23 man has a right to -- to have the business, I
24 truly do. And that's about all I got.
25 Thank you for your time.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
2 Gloria Devall.
3 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good evening.
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Gloria Devall, 7027
6 Alpine Street.
7 I'm an owner/operator of a thrift store on
8 Main Street, between 7th and 8th. And we are
9 all struggling on Main Street. A to Z Sandwich
10 Shop, which has been there for 30 years, has
11 shut down. It -- it's tough out there.
12 We appreciate the beautiful Main Street we
13 have, and it's gorgeous and it's wonderful, but
14 it's -- it's tough times for business now. And
15 the fact that this man wants to open a business
16 in this economy is admirable, and I would just
17 like to ask you to let him stand or fail on his
18 own, and let's -- let's see what happens. It's
19 tough out there.
20 So that's all I have to say.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
22 The last speaker that I have for opposition
23 is Joe Markusic.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yeah, it's marked for
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1 opposition, but I'm for the car wash and don't
2 want you to approve the appeal, so -- okay?
3 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, go ahead
4 and speak, sir.
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Joe Markusic, 1727 Alpine
6 Street.
7 We -- we've been in Springfield since '98.
8 I lived there for a good number of years. We've
9 been a contractor there, we have a thrift store,
10 we have a nonprofit. I have a welding shop
11 there. We do a lot of business in Springfield
12 and for Springfield.
13 And the overlay is -- is talked about a
14 lot. And one thing, I think, needs pointed out
15 is -- Mr. Kelly said it needed an exception to
16 be there before the overlay and it still needs
17 one after the overlay. So the overlay really
18 doesn't affect this use.
19 There are some issues with automotive uses
20 primarily -- if you remember, Main Street had a
21 tremendous number of used car lots on it with a
22 huge empty lot up front and a small building in
23 the back, and that's really from Mr. Neary, who
24 was at -- instrumental at that time -- well,
25 with the overlay. That's one of the main issues
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 they had with automotive uses, not a car wash.
2 In fact, since the overlay, at least two,
3 if not three intensive automotive uses have
4 opened. There's a repair shop, there's a Jeep
5 place, and there's -- I believe the transmission
6 shop. So it is not preventing automotive uses.
7 It is preventing the types of automotive uses
8 that aren't -- don't fit historically into the
9 neighborhood, but we still need repair shops, we
10 still need service stations, we still need car
11 washes.
12 This is in -- in that first half block
13 that's a commercial part of Main Street. It is
14 not on 4th Street. It has an entrance on Main
15 Street, and part of the original conditions was
16 that they're going to put a sign to prevent
17 people from turning right to go towards that --
18 Laura Street, where all the children are.
19 I think what you will find is this is a
20 very much needed business, a boost for Main
21 Street, it does not hurt the overlay, and will
22 help everybody in concern.
23 Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, sir. I believe
25 Mr. Redman has a question for you.
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1 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 Where is the nearest car wash to that
3 area?
4 MR. MARKUSIC: Geez. I think a manual one
5 is up around 56th or 60th Street on Main, and
6 there's -- that's -- where is the other one?
7 MR. ACAMPURA: The corner of 7th and Main.
8 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Simultaneous speaking.)
9 MR. MARKUSIC: There's a detail shop, but
10 the car wash would be on -- and there may be one
11 up further --
12 MR. REINGOLD: Sir.
13 MR. MARKUSIC: -- around 21st Street.
14 MR. REINGOLD: Sir, may I stop you for a
15 second?
16 To the Chair --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
18 MR. REINGOLD: -- it's very hard for our
19 court reporter to try to keep tabs or a record
20 of this proceeding when we've got a bunch of
21 yelling from the audience. I just think it's
22 important to keep it to the person at the
23 podium.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you,
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1 Mr. Reingold.
2 MR. REDMAN: Yes, the -- that question was
3 for you.
4 Is the owner of this property and the car
5 washer here?
6 MR. MARKUSIC: Yes, he is.
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.).
8 THE CHAIRMAN: He's going to come up and
9 speak in just a moment, Mr. Redman, if --
10 MR. REDMAN: Okay. I'll wait till he gets
11 up to speak.
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll just wait till he
14 comes up to ask him questions.
15 All right. That's all the cards that I
16 have in opposition.
17 Next I have Silas Jones and George Harvey.
18 You guys can come up in whatever order you want
19 to.
20 And if there's anyone else that wants to
21 speak and hasn't filled out a card, please do
22 so.
23 They're right up here on this desk, sir,
24 (indicating), the little blue cards.
25 MR. REINGOLD: If we've still got
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1 opposition, do you want them to finish up and
2 then Mr. Silas Jones speak? How do you want to
3 handle that, sir?
4 THE CHAIRMAN: If you don't mind,
5 Mr. Jones, if you could -- if you could wait
6 just a moment. We've got a couple more in
7 opposition. We'll go ahead and get those out of
8 the way and then -- because I'd like to keep it
9 kind of orderly.
10 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead and speak, sir, if
12 you'd like, and you can fill that out later.
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm speaking for it.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: You're speaking in support?
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Of Mr. Silas Jones.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Did you -- ma'am?
17 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm speaking in
18 opposition.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Then you need to
20 speak right now, and then we'll -- we'll hear
21 from those in support.
22 And just make sure you give us the blue
23 card when you're done.
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Exactly.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Give us your name and
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1 address for the record, ma'am.
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Lena Castro.
3 I live at 1217 Boulevard.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
5 MS. CASTRO: Just speak?
6 I'm in opposition for the car wash because
7 we have car dealerships, car details, car this,
8 car that, car repair shop. And I know those are
9 nice businesses, but Springfield is trying to
10 turn itself around.
11 We just got finished with the City putting
12 in our infrastructure that took two years. We
13 lost a few of our restaurants, our decent
14 businesses. We would like to see more of a
15 diversity; lawyers, gift shop, flower shops,
16 little -- you know, gift shop, a lot of
17 different things. We have enough car [sic].
18 We've got car lots that are empty and
19 abandoned. That's what you see when you drive
20 down Main Street. I think we need a break. And
21 I realize, yes, it may be a good business. And
22 I know people have to make a living, I
23 understand that, I truly do, but Springfield is
24 not going to make it if all we put on our Main
25 Street are car things.
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1 Go to Riverside, Avondale. They've got the
2 most charming shops, little houses that are made
3 into retail shops. We don't have a lot of that,
4 and we desperately need that. And I deplore
5 [sic] you, please give us a chance.
6 Yes, this business is not on Main Street.
7 There's an empty car lot and then there's this,
8 which is an abandoned building. I don't even
9 know if -- the man doesn't own it. I believe
10 he's supposed to be getting authorization from
11 the owner. He's supposed to be going to code
12 enforcements [sic] or zoning, I don't know.
13 But not even a hundred feet away you have
14 brand new SRG houses, old houses that have been
15 restored, people have put their love and their
16 life into it. They don't need a car shop -- a
17 car dealer -- you know, a car wash a couple
18 hundred feet away from their home.
19 We're trying to survive and we're trying to
20 bring back beautiful Springfield. I mean, I've
21 lived here for 12 years. And, honestly, I would
22 be the biggest walking advertisement. I love
23 it. It's a wonderful neighborhood.
24 Thank you very much for giving me the
25 moment to talk.
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1 Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
3 ma'am.
4 All right. Let's see, we have three folks
5 left to speak in favor of it.
6 Mr. Jones, I'm going to, if you don't mind,
7 have the other two folks speak first and then
8 I'll let you wrap up because I wanted to kind of
9 divide the time equally and give you as much
10 time as you need to fully explain.
11 So if we could have -- is it Stephen Dare?
12 And then Pastor Harvey, and then Mr. Jones.
13 Oh, I'm sorry. Mr. Redman, I have you on
14 my queue. Did you need to ask a question?
15 MR. REDMAN: (Inaudible.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, sir.
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: How many minutes do we
20 have?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: You have three.
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: We have three? All
23 right.
24 Hello, everyone.
25 Stephen Dare. I'm from Metro
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1 Jacksonville. I live in the neighborhood, in
2 Springfield as well.
3 I'm speaking in support of Mr. Jones. I
4 also spoke in support of Mr. Jones in front of
5 the Planning Commission.
6 The debate that has gone on over this car
7 wash has bordered on the ludicrous. The people
8 who are against the car wash have accused
9 Mr. Jones of bringing the neighborhood down,
10 suggesting that a car wash would have the
11 magical ability to increase prostitution, drug
12 dealing, vagrancy, and all manner of really kind
13 of crazy things that have been said about the
14 car wash by people who are not business owners,
15 who are not people who are part of a business
16 community, but for -- a large majority are
17 speculators in the neighborhood that is
18 progressing towards a more stabilized, kind of
19 an economy.
20 Springfield has labored under the
21 misapprehension for a while that zoning was the
22 root of its problems dating back to the 1930s.
23 However, research brings out very clearly that
24 this is not so. It was more the change in our
25 society, the civil rights problems of the 1960s,
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1 followed up by lack of enforcement in the '70s.
2 But the idea that car-based businesses dragged
3 the entire region down, that's insane, frankly,
4 and has no bearing whatsoever on the reality of
5 Springfield.
6 Now, every single one of the property
7 owners came to an urban neighborhood knowing
8 that it had problems far-ranging, involving
9 poverty and crime, and they bought houses that
10 were adjacent to a strip that has always been
11 commercial, going all the way back into the
12 1920s, actually going back to the 1910s.
13 Once upon a time, people didn't use cars
14 because they weren't in existence, so
15 neighborhoods were designed so that you could
16 walk to the businesses that you had to get to to
17 live your life.
18 This neighborhood has always had mixed
19 use. At the height of its best times, this was
20 a commercial area all the way through there.
21 And Mr. Jones' car wash is no different from the
22 car wash out in Ortega or the car washes that
23 are out in Baymeadows. In fact, Mr. Jones has a
24 long history of running a very credible
25 business. And I think what you're hearing in
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1 opposition, frankly, is a lot of panic having to
2 do mostly with the economy and people afraid of
3 their declining home values and the collapse of
4 an economic market. Mr. Jones' business will
5 help reverse that decline in Springfield.
6 As it happens right now, all the way along
7 Main Street the crime that is creeping back
8 there at night is creeping back because there is
9 no business presence. There's nobody out there
10 to say, "Hey, you need to get off the property."
11 There's nobody there to call the police.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
13 Your time is expired.
14 MR. DARE: Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Pastor Harvey.
16 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Good evening.
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you. Thank you,
19 Mr. Chairman, council members, committee
20 members.
21 George Harvey, 1417 North Laura Street.
22 We're in the same 1400 block that you've
23 heard quite a bit about. We've been there
24 23 years. And, by the grace of God, we're
25 literally property owners there because our
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1 church paid off the mortgage several years ago.
2 We're here to support Mr. Silas Jones. We
3 witnessed him tenaciously investing tons of
4 talent, time, and treasure to get the 4th Street
5 Car Wash redeveloped and going as a full-service
6 car wash, not just like the one on 6th or 7th
7 and Main where they're just having towels and
8 doing some detailing, but Mr. Jones has made
9 copious investments, including in his own money
10 of at least $250,000 to have a full-service car
11 wash. And we appreciate his honesty, his
12 character, and he's already demonstrated that
13 he's an asset to the Springfield community.
14 And, as you know, the zoning commission
15 reviewed all the facts in January and made the
16 right decision in terms of ensuring that
17 Mr. Jones could go forward in an equitable,
18 just, and merciful manner. And I beseech you to
19 please go forward in doing the right thing to
20 facilitate this full-service car wash.
21 And, again, I apologize for reiterating,
22 but it's a whole lot different from my just
23 getting some towels and washing cars. If you
24 were to come by and visit Mr. Jones' car wash,
25 you'll see he's already able to wash cars using
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1 modern technology and modern equipment from A
2 to Z.
3 Thank you for your consideration.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
5 All right. Mr. Jones.
6 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good afternoon.
8 My name is Silas E. Jones. I reside at
9 3038 Ribault Scenic Drive, Jacksonville, 32208.
10 I don't want to take a lot of time with
11 this because I think we're a little bit
12 redundant into this discussion that I'm sure the
13 council has had a chance to read over some of
14 the Commission's reports and so many of the same
15 people having the same concerns.
16 Starting out, I wanted to make sure that
17 you understand that I'm on the same side of my
18 opposition. I want to see Springfield strive
19 and go back to the good old days when it was
20 just one of the outstanding communities in
21 Jacksonville.
22 This is my third car wash, so I'm not new
23 in this business. In 1995, I invested in a
24 building and some property that had been
25 abandoned, as one of the persons said, and
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1 the -- things were as high as the -- as the
2 building itself, trash, weeds, you name it.
3 I decided to go ahead and do an investment
4 as a future project. I always knew I wanted
5 another car wash. This is the third one. And I
6 wanted to see if I could bring the old 4th
7 Street Car Wash back to what it was in the good
8 old days. It was built in about 1954 and
9 started organizing -- I mean, started actually
10 washing cars in about 1955, '56. And it was one
11 of the most outstanding car washes in
12 Jacksonville. As a matter of fact, I think it
13 was either the second or third one built in the
14 city.
15 It's unfortunate that a negative view of me
16 as a person comes out of my opposition when they
17 don't even have any idea who I am.
18 First of all, I came up in -- I worked in
19 the school system 40 years. I have some of my
20 former students sitting there with you right
21 now. I've known many of you for years. I
22 served as a principal, assistant principal in
23 the school system.
24 I bought this property with the intentions
25 of a future project called the 4th Street
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1 Car Wash back in '95. And the first thing I
2 did, I went to the City and got permission to
3 take down the old building that -- the roof was
4 falling in, and just brought it up to some sense
5 of insanity in that neighborhood. And I didn't
6 notice that there were any citations. That's
7 one of the things I checked on. There weren't
8 any citations about the car wash. Even the
9 weeds were as high as the car wash. The
10 building roof had fallen in when I bought it.
11 So there wasn't much concern at that time.
12 And the former owner was a person -- a
13 family -- George Lindley (phonetic) family.
14 They started the car wash business in
15 Jacksonville, and to this day George Lindley,
16 Jr., operates the car washes on Beach Boulevard
17 and -- one on Beach Boulevard and the --
18 Jacksonville Beach.
19 The reason I mention that -- everything was
20 just fine when they operated it, and they
21 decided to stop, and abandoned it, and they
22 built the Stockton Street car wash and some of
23 the others.
24 My point for going that way and discussing
25 that is -- I just want an opportunity to see if
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1 I can do this. I started investing, I bought
2 new equipment. We buy the same equipment that
3 Car Spa and all the other first-class car washes
4 buy. There are not a whole lot of car wash
5 people who build car wash equipment. And the
6 same $400,000 it probably cost them, cost me.
7 And I started this in '95, '96, '97, no
8 hurry. Got through all the paperwork that the
9 City required; zoning exception, even though it
10 expired before I could open, but I was never in
11 any hurry to open anyway because I wanted to
12 wait until I retired to operate this myself.
13 And so in 2007, I was ready. All the
14 brand-new equipment was in place, 12 people were
15 hired, all the signs were up, and we were all
16 ready to go. And two days before the car wash
17 was slated to open, I got -- someone from the
18 City came and gave me six citations.
19 The zoning had changed from CCG-1 to
20 CCG-S. There was something that -- called the
21 Springfield overlay. I didn't have much
22 involvement with that and didn't know what it
23 was.
24 What's ironic is I -- the car wash is right
25 across the street from SPAR, the people that did
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1 the zoning overlay, that recommended it through
2 the -- to the City, and it was done. And no one
3 ever said a word to me, with all the
4 subcontractors and all the work that was going
5 on over there.
6 To make a long story short, I was ready to
7 open, got the citation. Change, can't do it.
8 So my theory and my thought process indicated
9 that I should just buy another piece of property
10 further down Main Street where the zoning was
11 already in place, transfer the equipment, and go
12 ahead with -- about my business.
13 Well, I got with my bank and we decided to
14 do the due diligence, and we found out that it
15 was going to cost well over a million dollars to
16 do that.
17 Well, I wasn't quite ready to do that for
18 that kind of money. And so my attorney and I
19 decided, let's go back and look at the
20 Springfield overlay, let's see what it says.
21 And we digested it, we looked at it word for
22 word, read every line. And there was something
23 in it that says, we will not allow a
24 full-service, stand-alone car wash. But further
25 down it says, we will allow a convenient-like
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1 store with a car washer.
2 Allow me to tell you the difference. A
3 full-service, stand-alone car wash is kind of
4 like Car Spa, kind of like Jax Car Wash on 95
5 and Lem Turner. Those are full-service
6 operations. It requires many people. Sure
7 enough, it's probably a little bit more activity
8 and noise.
9 So we decided that we would do exactly what
10 was required. We would apply for a car washer
11 with a convenience store. Now, this convenience
12 store was not the traditional type -- will not
13 be the traditional type convenience store.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones, if you could
15 start wrapping up.
16 MR. S. JONES: Okay. I will.
17 It is going to be selling only car wash
18 products. So my -- so we decided that we would
19 apply for that.
20 And I admire the Planning Commission, what
21 it did. It listened to all of this, negative
22 and positive side, and I think that's -- it's
23 really good to see that kind of thing because
24 that's the way good cities operate, hear both
25 sides. And at the end, after almost three
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1 hours, in this same room, in January, the good
2 people on the commission decided, with an
3 overwhelming support of the car wash.
4 We're not going to be there to bring the
5 community down. And they did say that they
6 didn't want cars turning to the right to go down
7 into the community of 4th Street and make a left
8 turn only, back to Main Street. And we agreed
9 to do everything that the commission
10 recommended, and we stand by that. And I -- I
11 certainly hope and pray that you will be -- will
12 see the same kind of success possibilities that
13 the commission saw.
14 We're not going to bring it down; we're
15 going to lift it up. And that red photo that I
16 just presented to you, that shows what it looks
17 like now and what it's going to look like
18 later.
19 We did a sound test. We've done everything
20 that anyone has suggested for us to do, and
21 we're ready to go. We're just waiting for
22 approval.
23 I thank you for your time and support.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
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1 If you could hold on just a moment.
2 Mr. Redman has a question for you.
3 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 Mr. Jones, what would be the hours of
5 operation?
6 MR. S. JONES: That was one of the
7 requirements that the commission said we had to
8 adhere to, and it was from 8 o'clock in the --
9 8 o'clock a.m. to -- I believe it was 6 o'clock
10 p.m.
11 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
12 MR. S. JONES: Depending on the time of --
13 you know, the time change and all.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that correct, Mr. Kelly?
15 MR. KELLY: Yes, that's accurate.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
17 MR. REDMAN: In looking through your
18 pictures here, this -- I mean, it -- it's going
19 to look so much better --
20 MR. S. JONES: Yes.
21 MR. REDMAN: -- when it's finished than the
22 property has looked in the past here. I think
23 this would be a great, uplifting thing for the
24 neighborhood. I just can't imagine it not being
25 good, and every neighborhood needs a good car
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1 wash. I mean, you know, like they said, there's
2 a lot of car businesses along Main Street. They
3 have to get those cars washed somewhere, so I
4 think it -- I think it would be a great
5 improvement for the neighborhood.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. S. JONES: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to
8 answer a question that I heard Mr. Redman ask.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, you answered his
10 question. Let me go ahead and close the public
11 hearing and then we're going to get to our
12 general comments.
13 I'll close the public hearing. Mr. Brown
14 and then Mr. Joost.
15 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
16 One -- I guess I have a few things as I
17 listened to both sides tonight, and then the
18 history from the Planning Department,
19 understanding clearly that this establishment
20 has been around --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Wait just a moment.
22 Sir, we're done with the public hearing.
23 So if anybody has a question for you, we'll call
24 you up.
25 MR. BROWN: This is just comments, yeah.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
2 MR. BROWN: But the history, having that --
3 having that -- understanding that it's been a
4 car wash since its inception and understanding
5 it's a historic district -- and one of the
6 concerns with the historic district, you want to
7 make sure that -- especially with the buildings,
8 that they have similar usage, as well as the
9 description of the building. You want to make
10 sure that it's tailored close, if you will, to
11 what was a part of the district.
12 Understanding all of that -- but what I'm
13 also hearing is that there was an investment
14 made, $400,000 give or take, with this project.
15 I can hear -- I hear the pros and cons, but what
16 it really leaves me with -- because if I had to
17 vote tonight, I would have to tell you that I
18 would have to agree because of all the
19 information that sits before me to -- to move
20 forward, but I'm very sensitive also to the
21 neighbors.
22 And I did hear about the -- and I was glad
23 to hear that there is an option for a left turn
24 only because most neighbors probably just don't
25 want the traffic coming their way, and I can
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1 understand that because that -- especially for
2 children in the community, that will create some
3 problems.
4 And I guess where I'm at now is that -- I
5 would make the recommendation, if it pleases the
6 chairman as well as the district council- -- a
7 lot of this needs to be done prior to coming
8 here, and I think that there's some -- a lot of
9 work that really needs to be done before.
10 And I want to make a motion, if I could, to
11 move to defer this and not vote on it tonight
12 because, I'll be honest with you, as I stated
13 earlier, I would support it, but I do believe
14 that we have to be sensitive to the neighbors
15 and let's make sure that -- and I support it
16 because of -- all of the history behind it, but
17 I want to be considerate of the neighbors to
18 make sure that we're not imposing any hardship
19 on them, I want to minimize that, and so I just
20 think that it would be good if maybe the
21 district council- -- and I'm sure they've had
22 many meetings, but let's look at how we could
23 minimize the impact that's going to -- because I
24 agree with also Councilman Redman, this is an
25 improvement to the community.
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1 And so that would be my recommendation. I
2 move to defer it, and I hope I can get support.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I want to hear from
4 the others -- council members first, and then
5 we'll decide whether we're ready to move.
6 Mr. Joost.
7 Mr. Reingold, did you need to --
8 MR. REINGOLD: I was just curious -- I
9 mean, there was a motion on the floor -- if
10 there was a second. And then if you guys wanted
11 to discuss that -- or by doing this, essentially
12 it eliminates the motion if you guys just start
13 discussing --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Do we have a second
15 for that motion?
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I didn't hear one.
18 Okay. Mr. Joost.
19 MR. JOOST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 Through the Chair, I guess, to zoning.
21 Originally, this property was a car wash back in
22 1954; is that correct?
23 MR. KELLY: Yes, that's correct.
24 MR. JOOST: And when this individual bought
25 this piece of property back in 1995, it was
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1 zoned to be a car wash?
2 MR. KELLY: It was zoned CCG-1 at the time,
3 in 1995, which would allow a car wash --
4 MR. JOOST: A car wash is an allowable
5 use?
6 MR. KELLY: -- permissible by exception.
7 MR. JOOST: Okay. So -- now, let me
8 understand something else. I guess just through
9 an administrative problem or, you know, not
10 enough attention to detail when the overlay went
11 through, that changed the zoning on that
12 property?
13 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
14 In 2000, the Springfield zoning overlay was
15 adopted and changed it from CCG-1 to CCG-S.
16 MR. JOOST: Now, in most cases when you
17 have these overlays that come in -- I mean,
18 usually these -- the old purposes are
19 grandfathered in for existing businesses, are
20 they not?
21 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
22 But the business was not existing at the
23 time. From '95, it has not -- it has not
24 operated, and it was a few years back to
25 Mr. Jones actually acquiring the property. That
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1 was probably the last time it had operated, in
2 the late '70s, early '80s, I'm assuming, from
3 the description of the property, but --
4 So it was not an operational business. The
5 use has ceased, and so any rights associated
6 with the use that was allowed in '95 by
7 exception were lost basically because the use
8 had not commenced within a year.
9 MR. JOOST: So you're saying it was -- it
10 was allowed to be a car wash by exception even
11 back in 1995?
12 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
13 MR. JOOST: I happen to know a little bit
14 about car washes because my dad owned University
15 Car Wash. And I hear what the neighbors are
16 saying because on Saturday morning, those cars
17 were stacked up, let me tell you, and I -- I
18 understand what they're saying, but, you know,
19 when you buy a piece of property and it's zoned
20 a certain way, as a landowner I expect to be
21 able to build my business when it's zoned that
22 way. So, I mean, it's -- it's a tough one.
23 Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Joost.
25 Dr. Gaffney.
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: (Inaudible.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Brown.
3 MR. BROWN: Thank you for yielding.
4 I just had a question that I would like to
5 ask regarding the date that the money was spent
6 on the building because -- I had the history. I
7 just wanted to know the date that the investment
8 actually took place, the $400,000 to complete
9 the project, just waiting to open up the door.
10 You can come forward. I'm sorry.
11 (Mr. Silas Jones approaches the podium.)
12 MR. S. JONES: To answer your question, the
13 money was spent when I first bought the property
14 and then I started spending money with
15 permitting, to take the building down, a
16 considerable amount of money to do that, take
17 the old equipment out, and then we started
18 redoing the building.
19 So it was an ongoing thing first, right out
20 of pocket, paying as I go, but it got to a point
21 when I starting to buy the equipment, I had to
22 acquire a loan. So most of the money that I
23 spent myself personally came right after '95,
24 '96, '97, right in there.
25 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.
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1 What was the date that you -- I mean, the
2 last penny was spent?
3 MR. S. JONES: In 2007.
4 MR. BROWN: In 2007. Okay.
5 My second question deals with -- have
6 anyone offered to purchase your property at this
7 time?
8 MR. S. JONES: No.
9 MR. BROWN: No one?
10 And so if you're not able to move forward
11 and open the doors, then you basically lose the
12 money invested?
13 MR. S. JONES: Well, if a person purchased
14 the property would not be the problem. The
15 problem is the equipment.
16 MR. BROWN: Okay. The equipment as well.
17 MR. S. JONES: And I've -- I've checked
18 with the National Car Wash Association that I'm
19 a member of, and they said I'd be lucky to get
20 25, 30 percent on the dollar, brand-new
21 equipment, never been used.
22 MR. BROWN: Okay. That's my final
23 question. I was really trying to determine loss
24 here for the owner of the property.
25 No further questions. Thank you.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
2 Dr. Gaffney.
3 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 I'm -- as I sit here tonight, I'm just
5 trying to listen to all of the -- listen to all
6 of the individuals and trying to digest where
7 this would be a win/win situation.
8 I'm somewhat disappointed because I haven't
9 really met with everybody that I feel I should
10 have met with to get a really good feel for what
11 we need. I met on a couple of occasions
12 sometime back, and I see a lot of things have
13 changed.
14 I'm a little bit -- I have mixed emotions
15 because it's a beautiful project. However, I do
16 understand too as a district councilperson, we
17 have an overlay we always respect. We always
18 respect other council persons and other council
19 persons' districts and the constituents as it
20 relates to overlays. On the other hand, we also
21 want to eliminate blight. We want to eliminate
22 blight and we want to create jobs.
23 My first impression is to defer this bill.
24 However, I respect my colleagues -- my
25 colleagues' opinion as well, so --
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1 A couple of questions to legal. One
2 question or one -- a couple questions to legal.
3 The possibility -- is there any -- I heard a
4 couple possibilities -- and I don't want to do
5 committee work this evening without -- perhaps
6 maybe we can work some things out, but the
7 possibilities of turning from Main Street, just
8 expound on that a little bit.
9 MR. REINGOLD: Sure.
10 The property that is the subject of this
11 exception does not actually front onto Main
12 Street. Now, part of the property that fronts
13 onto Main Street is sort of wrapped up in this
14 exception, but not that entire property and not
15 the part that fronts onto Main Street.
16 I'm not exactly sure how we essentially
17 require them to go through that other portion of
18 the property that's not the subject of this
19 exception. That's kind of what I'm struggling
20 with in order -- if this committee sought some
21 sort of requirement that they had to access onto
22 Main Street, and so I'm -- I'm understanding the
23 concern but having difficulty in how to
24 implement that through another piece of property
25 that's not the subject of this request.
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: Right. That's -- I'm just
2 trying to see if the possibility -- if we can
3 accommodate the community, accommodate the
4 property owner to make it a win/win.
5 The gentleman has invested a substantial
6 amount of money. At the same time, I have to
7 listen to all of my constituents, as a matter of
8 fact. So what -- so I'm just trying to get a
9 little clarity, just a little clarity so we can
10 respect and not try to disturb the neighborhood,
11 the community, if that's possible.
12 Planning.
13 MR. KELLY: There's a couple of components
14 to this.
15 I believe the property owner on the
16 frontage, on Main Street, with the adjacent lot
17 to the east is the same property owner as this
18 lot. So there's a potential there, since he
19 owns both properties, to allow for the
20 cross-access and ultimate shared access onto
21 Main Street. So that's certainly a
22 possibility.
23 The site plan, as it was shown, has two
24 driveways onto 4th Street. One is exiting out
25 of the car wash tunnel and one is a two-way,
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1 inbound for the parking of the vehicles.
2 I guess the question -- there would have to
3 be a redesign of the site plan to kind of
4 capture that exiting movement out of the car
5 wash tunnel, to kind of circle it back around
6 and ultimately convey it across the adjoining
7 parcel to the east, but certainly -- I mean,
8 that is a possibility.
9 That was one of the conditions specifically
10 in the final order was to preclude that
11 residential intrusion, that traffic intrusion
12 into the neighborhood to the west of this, so
13 certainly that would also mitigate that impact
14 of that.
15 DR. GAFFNEY: Okay. I --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Gaffney, if I could ask
17 you a question.
18 DR. GAFFNEY: Yeah, go ahead.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm trying to understand
20 what you're saying here, and I think I do.
21 Are you asking whether traffic could be
22 brought in -- entrance and exit off of Main
23 through their frontage property and then loop
24 around in the opposite direction to come out to
25 the exit?
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: Right.
2 Yes. What I'm just trying to do is -- is
3 to minimize. I'm trying to accommodate -- I'm
4 trying to make it where it's a win/win for both
5 individuals. Everybody don't get everything
6 they want. And so in the best interest of -- to
7 accommodate the neighbors.
8 We know Main Street is very busy and a lot
9 of traffic enter -- ingress and egress from
10 Main Street, so that wouldn't bring a lot of --
11 230 cars potentially, that's a lot of traffic on
12 the street, you know, if your house is across
13 the street or in the same block.
14 So, in all respect, if we can accommodate
15 the community -- it's not everything, but by the
16 same token, the gentleman has a substantial
17 investment. It is a nice project. So if we can
18 make it where it can work, potentially work, I
19 would like to do that.
20 If it's logistically -- if it logistically
21 is not feasible, then we have no other
22 alternative but to leave things as they are.
23 But if there's that possibility is all I'm
24 saying.
25 I know some of the neighbors expressed that
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1 they don't have a problem with that as long as
2 it's not directly creating a lot of traffic.
3 You've got children down there and safety issues
4 within the block.
5 So is that a possibility?
6 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess we would probably
7 need to ask the owner if he would be open to
8 using that other piece of property and -- and
9 Planning if they would have any objection to
10 traffic flowing that way.
11 Mr. Reingold.
12 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, I believe both
13 of those issues are obviously important, but on
14 top of that, I just kind of want the committee
15 understanding maybe the legal implications of
16 the discussion we've had.
17 And it's certainly -- I'm not opposed to
18 the access onto Main Street. I think it sounds
19 like a wonderful solution to maybe some of the
20 issues. I'm just trying to make sure we get
21 there in the right place if that's the direction
22 of the committee.
23 The concern I have is that if you expand
24 this property to the property -- to the full
25 extent of the property that fronts onto Main
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1 Street and you use that as the access point to
2 the rest of the car wash, you've expanded the
3 property boundary of the request, of the
4 exception, and essentially it's kind of turned
5 into a new application and potentially expands
6 the 350 notice base, and you're looking at all
7 new advertising and all new applications.
8 And that's fine if that's the direction of
9 the committee. I just want everyone to be aware
10 that this may turn it into essentially a new
11 application that may have to go to Planning
12 Commission and, if necessary, work its way back
13 up to this committee to resolve that issue of
14 expanding the boundary.
15 I just wanted to raise that for everybody.
16 That's what I was kind of thinking of as the
17 discussion was going on.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Good point, Mr. Reingold.
19 Mr. Kelly, you seem to be --
20 MR. KELLY: I was thinking of that also,
21 but I think just providing a cross-access
22 agreement with an adjacent commercial parcel
23 wouldn't really necessitate the need for the
24 expansion of the exception. You can drive
25 commercial -- you can drive vehicles on
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1 commercial property across commercial property.
2 It doesn't mean the use is being expanded to
3 that other commercial property, it's just a
4 provision for a joint access or a shared
5 access.
6 The issue, to me, more or less, was with
7 the site plan. And I think we can amend the
8 site plan through an amendment to order if that
9 would be, you know, I think the will of the
10 committee. You know, we could accomplish that
11 essentially through an amendment to order of the
12 site plan if that's the will of the committee.
13 I think -- just providing a cross-access
14 doesn't, in my view, expand the use onto the
15 other site.
16 DR. GAFFNEY: (Inaudible.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I guess you probably
18 need to speak to the applicant about that.
19 DR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Jones.
20 (Mr. Silas Jones approaches the podium.)
21 DR. GAFFNEY: How you doing once again?
22 MR. S. JONES: Yes.
23 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you.
24 We were sitting up here, we're just trying
25 to -- you know, I appreciate you being very --
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1 your cooperation in trying to work with the
2 community. So we were sitting up here -- some
3 of this -- you think this is -- where we're
4 trying to go with this, you'd be willing to
5 entertain?
6 MR. S. JONES: Let me make sure that you
7 understand that the same gentleman owns that
8 entire block, and he's indicated to me that he
9 did not want to disrupt the other lots.
10 And we had plans before to use the lot on
11 the west side of the car wash for parking and
12 et cetera, and he did not -- I mean, he just
13 refused to do that. And now to think that he
14 would allow us to use the east side, which is
15 the prime piece of property, to go across that
16 would disrupt it to a point where I don't think
17 that I could get him to agree to do that because
18 there is a sign up there that says that is to be
19 developed, and he's assured me that the car wash
20 would not -- property would not be involved in
21 that.
22 So, Dr. Gaffney, I think that that was
23 probably not going to work with the owner
24 because that prime piece of property on Main
25 Street there and 4th, it entails that entire
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1 block, but that's the prime piece of property
2 that he thinks that maybe he will do something
3 with first.
4 So the idea -- to think that I could come
5 across that, you know, I don't know if that
6 would work. I don't think he would agree to do
7 that because he wouldn't agree to do the -- the
8 west side, which is behind the car wash, because
9 he didn't want it disturbed with the car wash.
10 He didn't mind giving us -- me permission
11 to go 14-and-a-half feet to the east, to allow
12 for parking and coming into the vacuum system,
13 but he would not allow any room going to the
14 west. He would only allow that 15 feet, and
15 that's it.
16 DR. GAFFNEY: Okay. Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Folks, I'm going to take a
18 little break here because we've been going on
19 for hours and our court reporter needs a few
20 minutes to limber up her fingers and it might
21 also give you guys a chance to talk about this
22 concept.
23 So let's take about a three-minute break
24 and we'll come back and -- and then you guys can
25 hopefully work this out, if there is anything to
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1 be worked out.
2 So three minutes, everybody come back.
3 (Brief recess.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Folks, I think
5 that ought to do it. Let's come on back and
6 start again.
7 Okay. We're back in session.
8 And I'm sure Mr. Reingold is telling
9 Mr. Gaffney that he needs to declare that
10 ex-parte down there.
11 I believe Dr. Gaffney had the floor when we
12 were -- when I so rudely interrupted you.
13 DR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 Yes, I wish to declare ex-parte. I spoke
15 with a couple of the community representatives
16 in opposition and they was just giving me their
17 opinion that they're in favor of it only if it
18 was ingress and egress from Main Street, so they
19 was talking about they were in favor of it.
20 And also spoke with Mr. Jones and asked
21 about the possibility of the entrance from
22 Main Street. So he was just -- didn't think he
23 can get cooperation from the landlord, the
24 property owner.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Did he say yes -- did you
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1 say yes or no? Did you say he did or did not?
2 DR. GAFFNEY: No, he didn't think he could
3 get -- the landlord would agree to allow him to
4 have the additional space coming in from
5 Main Street because of -- footage, because it's
6 prime property. So we were just trying to come
7 to a happy medium here.
8 So having said that, I think that -- I
9 think what we should do -- I was hoping that we
10 can come to some type of resolution where it's a
11 win/win for everybody, so I'm just going to, at
12 this time, encourage my colleagues -- we've all
13 heard all of the different testimonies about
14 this situation, and I think that -- I always
15 like to make it a win/win for everybody, but I
16 just would encourage everybody to vote your --
17 from the testimony that you've heard and that --
18 what you think would be best for the -- in the
19 best interest of the community, taking in
20 consideration the constituents as well, and the
21 individuals living on the block.
22 That's my take on it.
23 Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
25 Mr. Redman.
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1 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 Looking at the picture here, where it is
3 coming out onto -- would be coming out onto
4 4th Street, that appears to be, what, a half a
5 block off of Main Street with only a one-way
6 turn -- and I would assume that most of the
7 residents will be back behind that area, back in
8 the neighborhood, so the actual traffic coming
9 out of there, if there was a stop sign there and
10 proper control of traffic coming out, that it
11 wouldn't create a real hazard for the
12 community.
13 And a question that I have for Mr. Jones
14 is, how many people would you employ in this car
15 wash?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones.
17 (Mr. Silas Jones approaches the podium.)
18 MR. S. JONES: Yes. This is not going to
19 be the traditional full-service car wash. It's
20 going to be what we call an exterior express.
21 That means there will be about 10, 15 vacuums,
22 free vacuums. People will come in and vacuum
23 their own car, do their own interior, and then
24 they will stay in their car and drive around,
25 pay station, credit card bills [sic], and then
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1 really and truly it only takes one person to
2 operate the car wash.
3 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
4 MR. S. JONES: Full-service, it would be 12
5 or 15.
6 MR. REDMAN: Okay. So you'd have one
7 person in the retail part of it as well?
8 MR. S. JONES: Yes, one on each end.
9 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
10 All right. Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jones, I have a question
12 for you. At the corner of Dunn Avenue and
13 Biscayne, there's a car wash that sounds a lot
14 like what you're describing.
15 MR. S. JONES: Absolutely.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that basically the same
17 system?
18 MR. S. JONES: Yes. That's Mr. Jaffa.
19 He's in our organization. He has two other car
20 washes similar to that one. That's a
21 $4.2 million car wash.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
23 MR. S. JONES: Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I don't see any
25 other speakers in my queue -- or, Mr. Brown, did
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1 you want to say something else?
2 MR. BROWN: No.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you have any -- I saw
4 your name up there at one point. Are you done?
5 MR. BROWN: Yes. It was -- it was really
6 more in line with how they operate that
7 particular style of car wash, and I guess that's
8 really more user error on my part because I've
9 been to the one that you're talking about. It's
10 very nice, it's not a sore spot for the
11 community, and I never really see 30, 40 cars up
12 there at a time. It's not that at all. My only
13 concern with that is I don't know how to operate
14 it, and I was just laughing because -- you know,
15 when he was talking about it, I was -- that was
16 really it, though. It was just a personal
17 thing.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Joost, were
19 you on queue?
20 MR. JOOST: No.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Dr. Gaffney.
22 DR. GAFFNEY: Just a quick question.
23 Mr. Jones.
24 (Mr. Silas Jones approaches the podium.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: I'm just curious. I'm still
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1 trying to work this out and trying to
2 accommodate my constituents.
3 Now, what are your hours will be on
4 weekends?
5 MR. S. JONES: Weekends, 8 o'clock in the
6 afternoon, 5:30, 6 o'clock in the afternoon. I
7 mean, in the morning, 8 o'clock in the morning
8 until about 6:00 in the afternoon, depending
9 on --
10 DR. GAFFNEY: Okay.
11 MR. KELLY: (Indicating.)
12 DR. GAFFNEY: I'm sorry.
13 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
14 I apologize. I meant to do this earlier,
15 but I would like to run through all of the
16 conditions. There were eight conditions that
17 were adopted as part of the approval of the
18 exception by the Planning Commission.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. I thought we had
20 done that before the public hearing.
21 MR. KELLY: I hadn't read through all of
22 them. I think I indicated that there were those
23 conditions, and I've seen some questions come
24 back and forth regarding similar things that are
25 already within the final order. So if -- for
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1 the record --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
3 MR. KELLY: -- for the benefit of the
4 committee, just to run through those.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: That's my fault. I should
6 have caught that.
7 MR. KELLY: The first condition stated,
8 "Prior to commencement of the use, the applicant
9 shall submit a lighting plan for review and
10 approval of the Planning and Development
11 Department consistent with the Jacksonville
12 Design Guidelines and Best Practices Handbook."
13 Condition 2, "The hours of operation shall
14 be limited to 8 a.m. to 6 p.m."
15 Condition 3 prohibited any sales of
16 alcohol, beer, wine or cigarettes.
17 Condition 4 stated that, "Retail sales
18 shall be limited to those items used for car
19 wash purposes only."
20 Condition 5, the exception was granted
21 personal to Mr. Jones, nontransferrable, and
22 shall not run with the title of the land and
23 cannot be transferred through an amendment to
24 order.
25 Condition 6 stated specifically, "There
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1 shall be a sign posted at the exit that that is
2 a left-hand turn only exit."
3 Condition 7, "Within 18 months, the
4 property shall be developed in accordance with
5 the site plan and the building elevation set
6 forth in the 4th Street Car Wash packet that was
7 received by the Planning Commission on January
8 14th, or as otherwise approved by the Planning
9 and Development Department."
10 And the final condition also required the
11 certificate of appropriateness for the structure
12 itself through the Historic Preservation
13 Commission to be approved.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: That last condition,
15 Mr. Kelly, is that yet to be completed?
16 MR. KELLY: Yes. It's my understanding
17 that they still don't have approval of the
18 structure, for the architectural elevations and
19 all that, through HPC.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
21 Dr. Gaffney, did you want to say
22 something? You were about to when Mr. Kelly
23 spoke.
24 DR. GAFFNEY: No.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Nothing else?
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1 DR. GAFFNEY: No.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. If nothing else,
3 I need someone to move an amendment to grant --
4 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment to grant the
5 appeal.
6 MR. REDMAN: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second on an
8 amendment to grant.
9 All in favor of --
10 MR. REINGOLD: (Indicating.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, Mr. Reingold.
12 MR. REINGOLD: I apologize if I'm assuming
13 things wrong here, but based upon the comments I
14 had heard from the committee earlier, I just
15 want to make sure -- the amendment to approve
16 the appeal would deny the car wash. I just
17 wanted to make sure that was clear to everybody.
18 MR. JOOST: Say that again.
19 MR. REINGOLD: The commission approved the
20 car wash; therefore, there was an appeal. And
21 thus if you wanted to keep the car wash, you
22 would want to deny the appeal.
23 MR. JOOST: I meant to deny it.
24 MR. REINGOLD: Okay. And I just -- that's
25 why I wanted to clarify that issue. I
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1 personally don't care either way. It's not part
2 of my job. It's -- you guys are the policy
3 makers.
4 MR. JOOST: My intent of my motion was to
5 deny the appeal.
6 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Motion and
8 second on the amendment to deny.
9 All in favor of the amendment signify by
10 saying aye.
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
13 Need a motion to deny.
14 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment to deny the
15 appeal as amended.
16 MR. REDMAN: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and second to deny.
18 Please open the ballot.
19 We're pressing the green button to deny and
20 the red button to not deny.
21 MR. REINGOLD: Yes.
22 (Committee ballot opened.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
25 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes nay.)
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1 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 (Committee ballot closed.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
5 vote.
6 Do we have four?
7 MS. LAHMEUR: Four yea, one nay.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
9 denied the appeal.
10 Thank you all for coming down.
11 Item number 8 is deferred, as well as item
12 number 9.
13 Item number 10, 2010-202. We need to open
14 the public hearing.
15 Seeing no speakers, we'll close the public
16 hearing.
17 MR. JOOST: Move to withdraw.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion.
19 I need a second.
20 MR. BROWN: Second.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and a second to
22 withdraw.
23 Seeing no speakers, please open the
24 ballot.
25 (Committee ballot opened.)
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
3 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
6 (Committee ballot closed.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
8 vote.
9 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nay.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
11 withdrawn 2010-202, and that would be a
12 withdrawal with no return of fees.
13 All right. Items 11 and 12 and 13 are all
14 second and rereferred.
15 Folks, did I miss anything?
16 MR. REINGOLD: No, sir.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, then y'all have a good
18 evening.
19 Thank you.
20 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
21 7:19 p.m.)
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Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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STATE OF
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
5
6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 10th day of April, 2010.
11
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14 Diane M. Tropia
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Diane M.
Tropia,