1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE


       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING


       3                         COMMITTEE






       6             Proceedings held on Tuesday, March 2, 2010,


       7   commencing at 5:05 p.m., City Hall, Council Chambers,


       8   1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before Diane M.


       9   Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State of


      10   Florida at Large.




      12   PRESENT:


      13        RAY HOLT, Chair.

                WARREN JONES, Vice Chair.

      14        REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.

                DANIEL DAVIS, Committee Member.

      15        JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.

                STEPHEN JOOST, Committee Member.

      16        DON REDMAN, Committee Member.



           ALSO PRESENT:


                JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

      19        SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

                FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.

      20        KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.

                JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.

      21        DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.

                RICK CAMPBELL, Research Assistant.

      22        MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.

                JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.


                                 -  -  -








           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   March 2, 2010                           5:05 p.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening, everybody.


       5             All right.  We have a short agenda tonight,


       6        but we have one that I anticipate is going to


       7        take a little bit of time, and that is item


       8        number 7, our appeal.


       9             So what I'd like to do is go through the


      10        remainder of the agenda, which I don't think is


      11        going to take any more than about 15, 20


      12        minutes, and then we'll go back to the appeal.


      13             Council members, if we could go to page 2,


      14        item number 1, we will open the public hearing.


      15             Seeing no speakers, we'll close the public


      16        hearing.


      17             MR. DAVIS:  Move withdrawal.


      18             MR. JOOST:  Second.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second to


      20        withdraw -541.


      21             Please open the ballot.


      22             (Committee ballot opened.)


      23             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


      25             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


       2             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


       6        vote.


       7             (Committee ballot closed.)


       8             MS. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      10        withdrawn 2008-541.


      11             I assume all of our name tags are correct,


      12        so we're now trying to get through this as


      13        quickly as possible.


      14             Item 2008-542.  Open the public hearing.


      15             Seeing no speakers, we'll close the public


      16        hearing.


      17             MR. DAVIS:  Move withdrawal.


      18             MR. BROWN:  Second.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second to


      20        withdraw the bill.


      21             Please open the ballot.


      22             (Committee ballot opened.)


      23             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      24             MR. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


      25             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


       2             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


       6        vote.


       7             (Committee ballot closed.)


       8             MS. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      10        withdrawn 2008-542.


      11             Item 3, 2009-429.  We'll open the public


      12        hearing.


      13             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that


      14        public hearing to 3/16, take no further action.


      15             Items 4 and 5 are deferred, as well as 6 on


      16        page 4.


      17             Item 7 we will come back to.


      18             Mr. Brown, are we ready for number 8?


      19             MR. BROWN:  We're going to defer two weeks.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Item number 8 we


      21        will defer for another cycle at the request of


      22        Mr. Brown.  But we do have to open the public


      23        hearing, don't we?


      24             We will open the public hearing.


      25             Mr. Allen, do you want to speak,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        considering we're deferring?


       2             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening, sir.


       4             If you could give your name and address for


       5        the record.


       6             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Earl Allen, 16964 North


       7        Main Street, Jacksonville.


       8             The reason I come is -- I understand there


       9        was a problem.  They were concerned about the


      10        road.  I had a friend of mine with the fire


      11        department, a chief that had his engineer to go


      12        down from that district to go drive an engine


      13        down that road.  And he went down that road,


      14        turned around and come out and said there was no


      15        problem whatsoever.


      16             I measured the road.  The road is 20 foot


      17        wide and approximately 500 foot long.  I took


      18        pictures of whatever it's worth of some county


      19        roads or kind of city roads.  And a lot of them


      20        are 16 foot wide, where this one is 20 foot


      21        wide.  Whatever that's worth, I don't know.  But


      22        that's the main thing, I was trying to compare


      23        that to some city roads and there was no problem


      24        engineer -- an engine getting down that road and


      25        out.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             So I don't know what else, you know, I can


       2        say.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  You can submit those


       4        photos for the record if you'd like.  She can


       5        come up there and take them.


       6             We have a couple of questions.


       7             Councilmember Brown.


       8             MR. BROWN:  Yes.  Through the Chair to


       9        Mr. Allen.  Just so you know that I'm definitely


      10        in favor of this bill.  However, what we want to


      11        do is hash out all of the details so later on,


      12        years after we're gone, we have an understanding


      13        of what's expected from that property.  So


      14        that's all it is.  We're just -- we're pretty


      15        much there.  If you just give us the two weeks


      16        that we need, I'll assure you that this will


      17        work out in all of our favor.  We just want to


      18        make sure that we dot our Is and cross our Ts.


      19             And I do need to declare ex-parte.  I had


      20        an opportunity to talk to Mr. Boswell about it


      21        in my office on -- actually twice; 2/17 as well


      22        as today -- about this particular project.  And


      23        also ask that he go out and talk to


      24        Mr. Anderson.  That's the Pickettville


      25        Association president.  Just want to make sure





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that everything is done in proper order and that


       2        the people in the community is excited about


       3        what we're doing in the community.


       4             So just give us a little time.  I'll assure


       5        you that --


       6             MR. ALLEN:  We want everybody excited,


       7        don't we?


       8             MR. BROWN:  Yes, sir.


       9             All right.  Thank you.


      10             MR. ALLEN:  Thank you very much.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Allen, just a moment.


      12        Mr. Allen, I have one other question for you.


      13             Mr. Joost, you had a question?


      14             MR. JOOST:  I was just curious who the


      15        engineer from the fire department was.  If I had


      16        his testimony, I'd --


      17             MR. ALLEN:  Chief -- your chief Lee Watson


      18        is -- which was a friend of mine raised up.  He


      19        called and, you know, I don't remember the name


      20        of the engineer -- or the chief, but I'd be glad


      21        to get it if you need it.


      22             MR. JOOST:  Or just have him e-mail me


      23        or -- and that would be fine with me.


      24             MR. ALLEN:  If I can get your -- if I can


      25        get somebody to have him get in touch with you,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        I'd be glad -- he said he'd be glad to call you


       2        and verify all that.  And if there's some way --


       3             MR. JOOST:  Fantastic.  Well, my e-mail --


       4        I'll give you my e-mail later.


       5             MR. ALLEN:  I don't have a commuter.  If it


       6        don't help you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  I believe Mr. Boswell is


       8        over there indicating --


       9             MR. ALLEN:  Well, I'll give it to him and


      10        I'll make sure I see that you get that.


      11             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  Thank you.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      13             Mr. Reingold, would it be more appropriate


      14        for me to continue this public hearing?


      15             MR. REINGOLD:  At this point, I think if


      16        you want to move forward at the next meeting, we


      17        should continue the public hearing so we don't


      18        have to readvertise.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Seeing no


      20        further speakers, we will continue that public


      21        hearing until two weeks from now.


      22             All right.  So that takes us on item


      23        number 9, 2010-18.  We'll open the public


      24        hearing.


      25             Seeing no speakers, we'll close the public





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        hearing.


       2             MR. DAVIS:  Move to withdraw.


       3             MR. BROWN:  Second.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second to


       5        withdraw.


       6             Please open the ballot.


       7             (Committee ballot opened.)


       8             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       9             MR. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


      10             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      11             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      14             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      16        vote.


      17             (Committee ballot closed.)


      18             MS. LAHMEUR:  Seven yeas, zero nays.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, withdrawn


      20        2010-18.


      21             Item number 10, 2010-70.  We'll open the


      22        public hearing.


      23             I have Mr. Rick Sherman.


      24             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening, gentlemen,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        ladies.  Rick Sherman 12239 Sunchase Drive,


       2        Jacksonville, Florida, the association of


       3        Wynnfield Lakes.


       4             I purchased a house approximately two years


       5        ago.  I have nothing in writing, but the builder


       6        told me there would be nothing built behind my


       7        house.  Right now I have my house, my land, a


       8        little pond, and there's some woods, and then


       9        you're looking at the back of Kohl's and Home


      10        Depot -- Home Office [sic].


      11             I want to know exactly where this new


      12        development is being put.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, sir, we can probably


      14        have somebody follow up with you after we close


      15        this bill from Planning and they can give you


      16        all that information.


      17             MR. SHERMAN:  Okay.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is that it?


      19             MR. SHERMAN:  Yes.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      21             MR. SHERMAN:  Thank you.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Could we have


      23        Folks or somebody go over there and explain to


      24        him and show him the maps?


      25             MR. KELLY:  Yes.  Certainly.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             To the Chair, I just wanted to point out,


       2        though, that this was one of the bills that,


       3        unfortunately, became the first victim of the


       4        sign posting requirement, which was recently


       5        adopted.  And, unfortunately, the signs weren't


       6        posted properly for this item.  So it was a


       7        mandatory deferral at Planning Commission, which


       8        is why I don't have a recommendation from them


       9        today.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.


      11             Mr. Jones has a question.


      12             MR. JONES:  Thank you.


      13             Through the Chair to Mr. Kelly, this is


      14        Mr. Bishop's district.  The advertising -- the


      15        signage was placed on there, but it was not


      16        maintained or it was never placed?


      17             MR. KELLY:  It since has been placed up


      18        there and an affidavit has been filed and photos


      19        submitted from the applicant at this point in


      20        time.  It just wasn't done in time to meet the


      21        14-day notice requirements for the public


      22        hearing.


      23             MR. JONES:  And do we have a copy of the


      24        letter of opposition from the CPAC?  Is that a


      25        part of the file or --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. LAHMEUR:  Yes.


       2             MR. JONES:  I didn't see it.  It is?


       3             MS. LAHMEUR:  Yes.


       4             MR. JONES:  Okay.  She says it is.


       5             And the Planning Department recommended an


       6        amendment and approval.


       7             Mr. Kelly, the Planning Department


       8        recommended an amend and approve; is that


       9        correct?


      10             MR. KELLY:  That's correct.


      11             MR. JONES:  Does that change the letter of


      12        opposition from the CPAC?


      13             MR. KELLY:  No.  I haven't had an


      14        opportunity to read it.  We've reviewed this


      15        from kind of two aspects.  One is a


      16        single-family development and one is a


      17        multifamily development.  We're looking at,


      18        again, continuation of the berm and the


      19        landscaping along that side.


      20             There's no commercial development proposed


      21        in this, so it's either going to be a detached


      22        single-family development or multifamily


      23        development that would be limited to the density


      24        under the land use provisions, and there are


      25        substantial setbacks from the existing Hawkins





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Cove subdivision in addition to the berm and the


       2        buffer that's going to be proposed.


       3             MR. JONES:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       4             Thank you, Mr. Kelly.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you, sir.


       6             Now, if somebody could follow up with that


       7        gentleman, that would be wonderful.


       8             All right.  Let's see.  That takes us to


       9        item number 11.  Let's see --


      10             And we're continuing that public hearing?


      11             MR. REINGOLD:  Yes.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Continue that public hearing


      13        to 3/16, take no further action.


      14             Item 11, 2010-71.  We'll open the public


      15        hearing.


      16             Seeing no speakers, we'll close that public


      17        hearing.  There will be an additional public


      18        hearing on 3/16.


      19             2010-72.  We're going to take action on


      20        this sign waiver tonight.


      21             We'll open the public hearing.  We have


      22        with us Dan Burns.  He's here for questions


      23        only.


      24             Does anyone have any questions for


      25        Mr. Burns?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  We'll close the


       3        public hearing.


       4             And I need an amendment to either grant or


       5        deny the waiver.


       6             MR. JONES:  Move the amendment to grant the


       7        waiver.


       8             MR. JOOST:  Second.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


      10        amendment to grant the waiver.


      11             All in favor of the amendment signify by


      12        saying aye.


      13             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      14             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, if I may.


      15             I'd like to point out what the -- identify


      16        what the -- there was a revision.  I don't know


      17        if Dylan is going there or not, but I was going


      18        to point out that the condition -- there was a


      19        condition in the -- the amendment was a


      20        condition, not only the action of the committee,


      21        and that was that it would read as follows.


      22        It's a revised condition.  "The electronic


      23        reader board shall provide a static message only


      24        and may not change more than once every ten


      25        minutes."  That would be your amendment, along





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        with action of the committee.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Go ahead,


       3        Mr. Jones.


       4             MR. JONES:  I can appreciate the amendment


       5        and -- but how do we -- how do you enforce that,


       6        Mr. Crofts?


       7             I mean, does someone go around with a


       8        stopwatch and seeing if it's changing every


       9        two --


      10             MR. CROFTS:  Actually, it would follow the


      11        typical enforcement process.  Typically, it


      12        would be watched by our citizens.  We


      13        wouldn't -- that would go out there and monitor


      14        it and do the technical aspect or monitor it


      15        through the time watch and we would follow up


      16        with that and look at it and read it and go on


      17        site like any other code enforcement issue.


      18             MR. JONES:  But they could be cited if


      19        it --


      20             MR. CROFTS:  That's correct.


      21             MR. JONES:  -- changed more often?


      22             MR. CROFTS:  It could be.


      23             If it followed the normal CARE process, it


      24        would come through.  We'd send an inspector out


      25        there, and we would monitor it, look at it, time





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        it, and then do what would be the appropriate


       2        action to follow up in terms of enforcement.


       3             MR. JONES:  Thank you, sir.


       4             MR. CROFTS:  I would point out that there


       5        are these kinds of signs that do exist out there


       6        now, and we have approved them with conditions


       7        similar to this.  And, you know, some do and


       8        some don't, but it follows the normal process of


       9        enforcement.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      11             Mr. Redman.


      12             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      13             My question, Mr. Crofts, was what is the --


      14        is that the normal time span for these things


      15        blinking, or is some of them a shorter span?


      16        Because I've seen some of them just --


      17             MR. CROFTS:  This is -- this is a very


      18        conservative, if you will, changing message


      19        device.  The other -- most of them that you see


      20        or a lot of them that you see or a majority


      21        change much more rapidly than this.  So it's a


      22        conservative estimate of a changing message


      23        device and it's not flashing or scrolling or


      24        anything of that nature.  It's static for a


      25        period of ten minutes and does not change, but





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        could change after that period of time.  I would


       2        describe it as being very conservative in the


       3        standpoint of its aesthetic influence on terms


       4        of the external environment.


       5             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Mr. Reingold.


       7             MR. REINGOLD:  I know the condition has


       8        slightly changed.  It's my understanding the


       9        applicant was okay with that condition, but you


      10        might want to confirm with the applicant.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Burns, are you here?


      12             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes.  We're fine with


      13        that.


      14             Thank you.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Excellent.  Thank you, sir.


      16             All right.  That's good we got that on the


      17        record.


      18             All right.  Now, let's see.  Where were


      19        we?  We had --


      20             MR. JONES:  Move to grant the waiver.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  We had already done the


      22        voice vote on the amendment, but now we need to


      23        move to grant the waiver.


      24             MR. REDMAN:  Motion to grant the waiver.


      25             MR. DAVIS:  Second.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second to grant


       2        the waiver.


       3             MR. JOOST:  Move the amendment.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  As amended.


       5             Please open the ballot.


       6             (Committee ballot opened.)


       7             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       8             MR. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


       9             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      10             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      11             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      12             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      14        vote.


      15             (Committee ballot closed.)


      16             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nays.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      18        granted the waiver.


      19             (Mr. Corrigan enters the proceedings.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let's see.  Number 13, 14,


      21        15, 16, all of page 6 are deferred.


      22             Item 17, 2010-130.  Need a motion.


      23             MR. JOOST:  Move it.


      24             MR. JONES:  Second.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second to -- a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        motion and second on 2010-130.


       2             Seeing no speakers, please open the


       3        ballot.


       4             (Committee ballot opened.)


       5             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       6             MR. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


       7             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


       8             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


       9             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      11        vote.


      12             (Committee ballot closed.)


      13             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nays.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      15        approved 2010-130.


      16             All right.  Items 18, 19, 20, 21 are all


      17        second and rereferred.


      18             And, if I'm not mistaken, that takes us


      19        completely through our agenda with the exception


      20        of our appeal.


      21             So, council members -- and for the record,


      22        we have Councilmember Corrigan visiting with us


      23        this evening.  And we're back on page 4, item


      24        number 7.


      25             The way I wanted to handle this tonight, in





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        order to -- I wrote this down.  I wanted to try


       2        and equal out our time.  First we want to have


       3        Tom Goldsbury from our Building Department come


       4        down, and he's going to update us.


       5             If you -- council members, if you remember,


       6        I guess it was over a month ago, we addressed


       7        this issue, and we've kind of held off on making


       8        a decision so we could send somebody out to


       9        inspect the property and look into the


      10        structural issues that were being discussed and


      11        then come back to us and basically report on


      12        what the structure looked like.


      13             And we said at the time that we would


      14        restrict our public hearing comments to


      15        structural issues only.  So while we're in the


      16        public hearing, we're going to restrict things


      17        to just structural issues only.  And then after


      18        the public hearing, we will deliberate amongst


      19        ourselves and we can discuss the issue in full.


      20             But I'll have Mr. Goldsbury speak first,


      21        then we will open it up.  The applicant can do


      22        his intro, then we're going to have RAP and


      23        whoever their representatives are.  They'll have


      24        ten minutes.  Anybody else that wants to speak


      25        after RAP in opposition.  And then we'll have an





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        equal amount of time remaining for the applicant


       2        after that.  And then we'll close the public


       3        hearing and we'll do our deliberating.


       4             Mr. Goldsbury, could you start us off and


       5        give us an update of what happened when you guys


       6        went out there?


       7             (Mr. Goldsbury approaches the podium.)


       8             MR. GOLDSBURY:  Yes, sir.


       9             Tom Goldsbury, chief, Building Inspection


      10        Division.


      11             Myself and Jim Schock both went out and


      12        visited with the applicant and his engineer and


      13        looked at the structure.  The area we looked at


      14        was the area in the report that talked about the


      15        roof joists.  And we went up inside, looked up


      16        inside and what we saw there.


      17             The thing with the code, the building code,


      18        the building code requires you to do something


      19        to -- well, requires you to meet the code when


      20        you do a -- when you do repairs, when you do an


      21        alteration, when you build a building.


      22             The building code has several different


      23        volumes these days.  It's not like it used to


      24        have.  It has an existing building code.  Under


      25        the existing building code, you get into the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        category of the work.  And the category of the


       2        work that I saw in the roof area would be what


       3        we'd classify as a repair.


       4             There was vertical members going from the


       5        roof purlins up -- or the roof -- the ceiling


       6        purlins up to the roof joist that were bowed.


       7        There were vertical one by -- probably one by


       8        sixes.  We didn't get actually up in and


       9        measure.  And several of them were bowed.  There


      10        may have been some that were missing.  Not


      11        having the original plans, we don't know how


      12        many may have been there.


      13             But a one by six in compression is very


      14        weak.  You get a thin member in compression and


      15        it gets to be very weak.  Whether there had been


      16        other members of different sizes there or not, I


      17        don't know.  But under -- under a repair, and


      18        especially in an historic building, you can


      19        replace that in kind.


      20             So, to me, what I saw and what I would have


      21        required somebody to do if they came in and


      22        said, "Look, we want to get a permit to repair


      23        this roof area, this structure," I would have


      24        told them that they could repair it in kind.


      25        They could have repaired it with the type of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        materials that had been originally used.


       2             Personally, I would have probably put in a


       3        two-by member versus a one-by member.  It gives


       4        you that extra thickness, it gives you more


       5        compression, better buckling, resistance in


       6        compression.


       7             The amount of work to do that would not


       8        have been -- in my opinion, been significant.  I


       9        didn't see other damage occurring anywhere that


      10        this buckling had caused.  Nothing was pointed


      11        out to us.  So what we felt was, yes, somebody


      12        could have done the work, maybe -- I don't


      13        really want to get into the dollar value, but


      14        I'm going to say probably 1,000 to $2,000 at


      15        most could get in there and support that roof


      16        structure and it would have been fine.


      17             Usually people come to us and we say you


      18        have to do this much work when they want to do


      19        this much work.  To be honest, this is the first


      20        time we've said, well, we think it's this much


      21        work.  And someone is saying, no, we want to do


      22        this much.  They can do more, but it's not


      23        required by the code.


      24             Be glad to answer any -- well, you want to


      25        go on and then answer questions or . . .





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  No.  We're going to take


       2        questions for you first and then we'll go into


       3        our public hearing.


       4             Any council members want to ask a question


       5        of Mr. Goldsbury about what he saw?


       6             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Well, sir, if


       8        you could hang close by, we might have questions


       9        for you later.


      10             MR. GOLDSBURY:  Sure.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  We'd appreciate it.


      12             MR. GOLDSBURY:  Sure.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Now, we've


      14        all --


      15             Mr. Reingold, I guess we'll open our public


      16        hearing at this point.


      17             MR. REINGOLD:  (Nods heads.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Open the public hearing, and


      19        we'll start with the applicant.


      20             Mr. Harden, if you could come up and


      21        introduce things.


      22             MR. CORRIGAN:  (Inaudible.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.  Go ahead,


      24        Mr. Corrigan.


      25             MR. CORRIGAN:  Mr. Chairman, first thanks





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        for recognizing me being here.


       2             I just want to declare ex-parte


       3        communications out of an abundance of caution.


       4             I just had procedural conversations with


       5        Mr. Harden several days ago.  And I had


       6        procedural conversations with Carmen Godwin, who


       7        is the executive director of RAP.


       8             I just wanted to put that on the record.


       9             Thank you.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      11             Mr. Harden, we're going to give equal


      12        time.  I don't know how long that's going to


      13        be.  It depends on how long the folks for the


      14        RAP go, but basically at least ten minutes.


      15             MR. HARDEN:  But, as I understand it, you


      16        don't want to go through all the criteria.


      17        We're going to stick just on the issue that --


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Right.  During the public


      19        hearing, we're going to stick with structural


      20        issues only.


      21             MR. HARDEN:  Okay.  And just to remind you,


      22        that's not the only issue for consideration by


      23        the committee, but I understood that was the


      24        limitation.


      25             I have reviewed -- I've spoken with





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Mr. Goldsbury.


       2             Let me give my name and address.


       3        Paul Harden, 501 Riverside Avenue.


       4             I've spoken with Mr. Goldsbury and reviewed


       5        his notes and have taken notes on what he just


       6        said, but let me put in context what the issue


       7        is.


       8             Mr. Lamb wants to repair the house -- or


       9        build a new house and bring it up to current


      10        code, which will require demolition of this


      11        house.  Mr. Goldsbury is saying, well, you don't


      12        have to do that.  You can do it based on the


      13        code.  And, in all due respect, what the


      14        building code says -- and I'll read it to you --


      15        with regard to wind design, which is the issue


      16        on this, is wind design of existing buildings


      17        shall be in accordance with the building codes


      18        that were in effect when the building was


      19        permitted.  This building was permitted in


      20        1920.  There were no wind code requirements.


      21             So according to the building code, then, as


      22        Mr. Goldsbury said, we don't have to do as much


      23        work.  It's not safe to have a house currently


      24        with wind load requirements that you had in


      25        1920.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I understand and I appreciate


       2        Mr. Goldsbury's position that he wouldn't force


       3        us to do that.  But Mr. Lamb, whose family would


       4        be living in the house, prefers to bring it up


       5        to current code.  There were no codes in 1920.


       6        The current wind load codes are 119 miles an


       7        hour.  That is his preference.


       8             In all due respect, there is a report that


       9        says every third one of the boards is missing.


      10        And Tom told me candidly, he looked up in there,


      11        didn't count it.  He said he identified some


      12        bowed -- of the one by ones.  But every third


      13        one is missing along, so -- but even if you went


      14        back in and took one by ones and replaced every


      15        third one of them, it doesn't nearly bring it up


      16        to current code.


      17             Again, there are -- this is not the only


      18        criteria.  But one of the criteria is the cost


      19        of fixing the house, and the owner of the house


      20        who actually is going to be living there with


      21        his -- or somebody in his family is going to be


      22        living there, wants the house to current code.


      23             So the issue is, no, you don't have to do


      24        it.  You can let your family live in an unsafe


      25        house or a house that doesn't meet current code,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        or you can let them live in a house that meets


       2        code from 1920.  And, again, Mr. Goldsbury's


       3        statement of what the code says was not exactly


       4        accurate.  I was letting -- I'm going to read --


       5        I read to you what exactly what the requirements


       6        are.


       7             So on that one issue, yes, we understand


       8        they could get by living in a house where you


       9        replace every third board, which is what's


      10        missing according to the report of the folks who


      11        actually went up there and checked, or you could


      12        bring it up to current code, which is our


      13        preference, which is expensive, and that's why


      14        we're asking for the demolition permit.


      15             So thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      17             And you have used three minutes.


      18             MR. HARDEN:  Yes, sir.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  I'm not sure who


      20        is going to be representing RAP.


      21             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  But go ahead, sir.  If you


      23        could identify --


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That would be me.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Are you Robin Lumb?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I am Robin Lumb, 2164


       2        Gilmore Street, Jacksonville, Florida.


       3             Has everybody gotten the packet that RAP


       4        distributed today?  It's a multi-page packet,


       5        this one (indicating.)  It's the updated.  It's


       6        got some of the materials we're referencing.


       7             I believe they brought it down today, but


       8        I'm not sure everybody got a chance to see it.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Is this it (indicating)?


      10             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Chairman, apparently there


      11        is ex-parte communication that hasn't been


      12        revealed.  I don't have a copy of it.  May I


      13        have a copy of it before you go forward?


      14             MR. LUMB:  Sure.  I have a cold.  I don't


      15        want to give you this one.


      16             MR. HARDEN:  All right.


      17             MR. LUMB:  And I'm trying not to touch


      18        anybody because I do have a cold.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Go ahead, sir.


      20             MR. LUMB:  Again, my name is Robin Lumb.  I


      21        live at 2164 Gilmore Street in Riverside.


      22             If you will recall, this committee, at the


      23        end of the last hearing on resolution 2009-910,


      24        narrowed the scope of the inquiry to the issue


      25        of the structural soundness of the house on





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Greenwood Avenue and the application of the


       2        Florida building code.


       3             Mr. Harden, who represents the appellant,


       4        provided the narrative at the January LUZ


       5        hearing and made particular point of a report


       6        submitted by Mr. Dole Kelley, a structural


       7        engineer hired by the appellant to evaluate the


       8        present condition of the subject property.


       9             Throughout his presentation, Mr. Harden


      10        made repeated use of one particular argument


      11        based on a portion of Mr. Kelley's report that


      12        claimed that the cost of the structural repairs


      13        that would be necessary to meet the requirements


      14        of the 119-mile-per-hour wind load standard


      15        would, and I quote, "far exceed the cost of


      16        complete replacement."


      17             Mr. Kelley's report made no credible claim


      18        that the building was structurally unsound in


      19        the present condition, but rather that the cost


      20        of any repairs that met the requirements of the


      21        updated Florida building code made those repairs


      22        impractical.  Mr. Harden's claim was of


      23        sufficient concern to LUZ Committee members that


      24        they postponed deliberations until Mr. Goldsbury


      25        could submit his report.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             As it turns out, Mr. Kelley, the expert


       2        hired by the appellant and a licensed structural


       3        engineer, got it wrong when he claimed that the


       4        119-mile-per-hour wind load standard was the


       5        controlling factor in assessing the structural


       6        needs of the Greenwood Avenue property.


       7             I refer you to a letter of Thomas


       8        Goldsbury, chief of the Building Inspection


       9        Division and himself a licensed engineer who


      10        inspected the property on February 9th of this


      11        year.  Again, this is in your packet.


      12             Referring to the report submitted by


      13        Mr. Kelley, Mr. Goldsbury's letter to Jason


      14        Teal, the General Counsel's Office, states, and


      15        I quote, "Mr. Kelley bases his conclusions on


      16        the condition of the structure related to the


      17        requirements of the current Florida building


      18        code.  However, the current Florida building


      19        code is not appropriate for this historic


      20        structure.  Instead, the Florida building code


      21        has a section specifically addressing existing


      22        historic structures which does not require


      23        structural upgrades that the current code would


      24        mandate.


      25             "Instead, the existing historic structure





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        section only requires repairs if such are


       2        necessary to bring the building back to the


       3        condition it was originally designed and


       4        constructed.  Therefore, there is no requirement


       5        for the structure to comply with the design


       6        criteria to withstand a 119-mile-per-hour wind


       7        load that is required by today's Florida


       8        building code as Mr. Kelley states."


       9             It's quoting from Mr. Goldsbury's letter.


      10             He goes on to say, "My personal inspection


      11        conducted by Mr. Schock and myself did reveal


      12        some limited bowing of vertical supports.


      13        However, there was no evidence of widespread


      14        damage or other structural issues that would


      15        present any immediate danger or affecting the


      16        overall structural soundness of the building.


      17        It appears that the bowing may have been caused


      18        by undersized vertical supports which can easily


      19        be corrected using more appropriate materials."


      20             In conclusion, states Mr. Goldsbury in his


      21        letter, "Based on the existing historic


      22        structure portion of the Florida building code


      23        and my personal inspection of the property, the


      24        amount of existing damage is very small and the


      25        Florida building code would not require that the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        structure be brought up to today's code and any


       2        repairs could be performed per the original


       3        design."


       4             Turning from Mr. Goldsbury's report, draw


       5        the committee's attention to the specific


       6        language in the Florida building code,


       7        specifically section 502.3.  It says, "For


       8        repairs in an historic building, replacement or


       9        partial replacement of existing or missing


      10        features that match the original in


      11        configuration, height, size, and original


      12        methods of construction shall be permitted."


      13             Finally, let me read portions of a report


      14        supplied by Richard Renstrom (phonetic), a


      15        licensed structural engineer engaged by


      16        Riverside Avondale Preservation to review the


      17        two reports relied on by Mr. Harden, as well as


      18        the report of Mr. Goldsbury.


      19             I will note parenthetically that


      20        Mr. Renstrom was not allowed access to the


      21        property, so he had to conduct his review based


      22        upon the existing documents and an examination


      23        of the photographs.


      24             Quoting directly from Mr. Renstrom's


      25        report, these are his remarks:  "I have reviewed





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the materials you sent me concerning the home on


       2        Greenwood Avenue.  These materials included a


       3        report by John Burrows, a building contractor,


       4        by Dole Kelley, professional engineer, and by


       5        Tom Goldsbury, a professional engineer.


       6             The report of Mr. Burrows has two


       7        structural items that I will comment on."  This


       8        is Mr. Renstrom talking.  "One, the report


       9        mentions that collar beams were not installed.


      10        It is not unusual to find old homes without


      11        these members."  The report also notes that the


      12        roof does not leak, which tells me the roof


      13        structure is performing well and not allowing


      14        unnecessary movement.


      15             Number two, this report of Mr. Burrows also


      16        mentions vertical members in the attic that are


      17        bowed.  These can be seen in the photos in the


      18        report.  If strengthening of these bowed members


      19        is desired, nailing a couple of two-by-four


      20        members to the existing members would fix any


      21        weakness that the bowing members causes.


      22        Mr. Renstrom concludes and concurs with


      23        Mr. Kelley.


      24             Mr. Kelley's letter addresses items that


      25        need to be done in order to bring the home up to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        current code.  I agree with -- excuse me.  He


       2        concurs with Mr. Goldsbury's findings.  I agree


       3        with Mr. Goldsbury that the Florida building


       4        code does not require the upgrading of existing


       5        framing and that any need of repairs need only


       6        match the original construction.


       7             Riverside Avondale Preservation contacted a


       8        local builder, a licensed building contractor,


       9        asked him the cost of remediation to put in 40


      10        new two-by-four roof support members, and he


      11        came back with a price of $1,350.  Once again,


      12        that's in your packet.


      13             In January, Mr. Harden laid out the terms


      14        of this debate and safety wasn't an issue at


      15        that time.  It was a matter of the applicability


      16        of the Florida building code and the cost of


      17        remediation.  But he said that the underlying


      18        issue was one of structural soundness, which was


      19        itself predicated on the claim that the house on


      20        Greenwood Avenue needed to withstand a


      21        119-mile-per-hour wind load.


      22             That argument, along with the claim that


      23        the cost of any structural repair would be


      24        excessive, can no longer be sustained.  This is


      25        an old home.  It is the oldest home in its





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        neighborhood and it has deferred maintenance


       2        issues.  But this home is structurally sound,


       3        was lived in by the applicant's family until


       4        2009.  And for the purposes of the historic


       5        preservation effort, has been surveyed and


       6        listed as a contributing structure.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, you have three minutes


       8        remaining.


       9             MR. LUMB:  How many?  Three minutes.


      10             Thank you.


      11             A prominent and well-respected member of


      12        this community has appealed the ruling of the


      13        Jacksonville Historic Preservation committee and


      14        asked this committee to exempt him from the


      15        operation of the law.  That is his perfect


      16        right.


      17             But the situation the appellant finds


      18        himself in is not unique.  Houses inside the


      19        historic district are by definition old.  If


      20        Mr. Harden is concerned about safety issues now,


      21        let me point out to this committee that by


      22        Mr. Harden's own definition, every house in the


      23        historic district is unsafe.


      24             Florida building code does not require


      25        remediation to the current standard.  And it may





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        be inconvenient to undergo that expense, but all


       2        homes, regardless of age, require upkeep and


       3        repair.  If this committee overturns the


       4        Jacksonville Historic Planning Commission and


       5        grants the demolition COA, it will set a


       6        precedent that vitiates the Historic


       7        Preservation ordinance.


       8             If this committee does grant the


       9        appellant's request, this committee would be


      10        hard-pressed at any future time to uphold the


      11        denial of any demolition COA inside the historic


      12        district.  Your decision could very well make or


      13        break the cause of well-ordered historic


      14        preservation in the city of Jacksonville.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      16             Next I have Kay Ehas.


      17             MS. EHAS:  Waive.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Mansfield, Jennifer


      19        Mansfield, did you want to speak?


      20             MS. MANSFIELD:  Waive.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Pam Telis.


      22             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'll waive.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Paul Bremer.


      24             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Could you give your name and


       2        address.


       3             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Paul Bremer.


       4        My address is 726 Margaret Street in Riverside.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       6             MR. BREMER:  Real briefly, the house has


       7        been standing since 1920.  In my living memory,


       8        there have been hurricanes that have hit this


       9        city in 1948, in 1951 and 1964.  And two -- we


      10        had four in 2004 alone.  The house is still


      11        standing.  There's no danger from hurricanes in


      12        that house.


      13             Thank you.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      15             Linda Bremer.


      16             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'll waive.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Carmen Godwin.


      18             MS. GODWIN:  Waive.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Frances Hallihan.


      20             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sorry if I butchered your


      22        name.


      23             If you can give your name and address.


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Frances Terry Hallihan,


      25        and I live at 2358 Riverside Avenue.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             My family moved here as a permanent


       2        resident in 2007 from Old Town, Alexandria,


       3        which is a very historic area, and there I


       4        participated in many public hearings with regard


       5        to historic properties and changes to those


       6        historic properties.


       7             I strongly urge the council to look at the


       8        impact your approval of this appeal will have.


       9        You previously designated this area, the


      10        surrounding area as a historic district, and to


      11        permit the demolition of one of the oldest homes


      12        in that area is flying in the face of what you


      13        did by the designation of a historic district.


      14             I strongly urge you to deny the appeal and


      15        to sustain that property such as this should be


      16        renovated and remain historic.


      17             Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      19             Greg Bowen.


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Waive.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  And Bryan Gates.


      22             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Waive.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  That's all the cards I


      24        have.  Is there anyone else that would like to


      25        speak in opposition?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. TEAL:  (Inaudible.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Well, we've got a


       3        little bit of time left on RAP, but I'll give


       4        you --


       5             MR. TEAL:  That's all I'm going to need.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  One minute.


       7             Thank you.


       8             MR. TEAL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       9             I just wanted to respond to some of the


      10        comments that Mr. Harden made to the committee.


      11             Basically, what Mr. Harden's position is is


      12        that the property owner wants to bring the


      13        property up to current code.  That's not the


      14        issue here.  The issue here is -- according to


      15        Dole Kelley, is whether it needs to be brought


      16        up to the current code.


      17             And I think it's clear from the -- really


      18        the only expert in the subject matter that


      19        testified tonight, Mr. Goldsbury, that it does


      20        not need to be brought up to the current code,


      21        which is borne out through the existing code


      22        that was handed out to you-all.


      23             The point is that they don't have to do


      24        what Mr. Kelley says that they have to do.  They


      25        don't have to do any of the work that Mr. Kelley





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        says would be prohibitively expensive in his


       2        letter.  They don't have to do any of that.


       3        They may want to, as Mr. Goldsbury testified,


       4        but it's not required of them.


       5             And I did want to also point out, in


       6        conclusion, that the Historic Preservation


       7        Commission -- I don't want to say regularly


       8        approves demolitions, but they do approve them


       9        with some frequency.  But the reason why they do


      10        is because the structures that they're looking


      11        at are extremely deteriorated.  They're at the


      12        point where it would cost more to renovate the


      13        structure than it would actually -- the value of


      14        it, and this is not falling into that category.


      15             Thank you.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      17             All right.  Mr. Harden, you have up to


      18        seven-and-a-half minutes to do your closing


      19        remarks, and then we'll close the public hearing


      20        and debate.


      21             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Chairman, obviously some


      22        of the folks got outside the scope and I'll need


      23        to respond to them, but the issue isn't what my


      24        client wants to do and doesn't want to do.  And


      25        Mr. Goldsbury is, in fact, an expert in his





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        field.  He's not an expert in the law.  In all


       2        due respect, I am.  And I want to read you


       3        exactly what the code says.


       4             "When design of the existing building


       5        shall be in accordance with building codes that


       6        were in effect when the building was


       7        permitted."  This is straight out of -- so the


       8        question is, do you build it in accordance with


       9        the 1920 building code, which is no wind loads,


      10        or you build it in accordance with the current


      11        one, which requires the 119 miles an hour.


      12             Again, respectfully, if there's no reason


      13        to have the 119 miles an hour and if it doesn't


      14        need to be safe, then why is it in the law?


      15             The gentleman said, oh, well, we've had


      16        lots of hurricanes and that house hasn't blown


      17        down.  Well, yeah, it happens to be one that


      18        didn't get blown down, but there were a lot of


      19        buildings that were blown down that don't meet


      20        119-mile-an-hour requirements.  And that's why


      21        the law of the state of Florida now is that,


      22        when you build a house, you have to make the


      23        wind load -- I mean, the wind design so that it


      24        holds the 119-mile-an-hour resistance.


      25             My client prefers that his family live in a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        house that meets the regulations of the current


       2        code.


       3             Now, that isn't the only issue for you to


       4        consider.  There are nine other criteria other


       5        than financial hardship.  But, in fact, it is a


       6        financial hardship to meet that if you want to


       7        live in a house that my folks think is a safe


       8        house to live in.


       9             The state of Florida made that code for a


      10        reason.  They made that -- the requirement for a


      11        reason.  So do you keep the 1920 requirement --


      12        which is nothing; you don't have to do anything


      13        to meet that code -- or do you bring it up to


      14        the current code?  And we have chosen to want to


      15        bring it up to current code because we think the


      16        current code sets forth safety standards that


      17        the community has decided.


      18             Mr. Lumb talked about this being a


      19        precedence, but the fact of the matter is there


      20        is a process whereby Mr. Lamb is entitled to go


      21        through a hearing, go through the criteria, and


      22        that's what you decide on.  Not every house


      23        that -- that -- you don't decide whether every


      24        house in the Riverside Avondale area is safe or


      25        unsafe.  You decide whether or not this house





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        meets the -- the request meets the criteria.


       2        And, in all due respect, we went through those


       3        criteria last time.  And I think that Mr. Lamb,


       4        in fact, does meet those criteria.


       5             The precedence is not as to any other


       6        structure, but as to this structure.  And I


       7        would ask that you go back and review those


       8        criteria, review the record.  You have before


       9        you tonight just one of those issues.  And the


      10        issue isn't -- and, again, in all due respect,


      11        if you look at it, it doesn't say that


      12        structural integrity is one of the criteria.


      13        It's an issue in one of the criteria, one of


      14        three issues that come up in one of the ten


      15        criteria.  So it's not what you're supposed to


      16        make your decision based upon.


      17             There is a process.  Mr. Lamb has gone


      18        through that process.  He's not being


      19        willy-nilly about wanting to make the structure


      20        safe.  He has an alternative.  That's to


      21        demolish the house and build another house on


      22        the lot.


      23             The report of the Planning Department,


      24        quite frankly, if you read it, minimizes the


      25        value of this house to the historic district.  I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        understand my friend Mr. Corrigan wants to


       2        protect the historic overlay and the criteria --


       3        and the law that he helped write, but the fact


       4        of the matter is that law built into it a


       5        methodology to go through and do a demolition.


       6             Mr. Lamb prefers to build a house in


       7        accordance with current code, not leave the


       8        house in accordance with the 1920 code, which


       9        there were a lot of things different in 1920.  I


      10        don't have to name them for you, but the wind


      11        load is the one that we're dealing with today,


      12        and it requires that you hold 119 miles an hour,


      13        and that's our preference.


      14             So we don't want to stick back in every


      15        third one-by-one and leave it that way.  We


      16        don't want to comply with 1920 requirements.  We


      17        want to bring it up to code, and the way that we


      18        would do that is to allow demolition and new


      19        construction.


      20             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Harden.


      22             Any questions?


      23             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, I will close


      25        the public hearing.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And anybody who has any comments or


       2        questions for any of the witnesses --


       3        Mr. Corrigan.


       4             Well, I have one, but I'll go after you.


       5             MR. CORRIGAN:  All right.  Thank you.


       6             Mr. Chairman, I do have a question for


       7        Mr. Goldsbury, if I could.


       8             Through the Chair to Mr. Goldsbury.


       9             (Mr. Goldsbury approaches the podium.)


      10             MR. CORRIGAN:  Tom, first I want to thank


      11        you for your -- going out and checking for the


      12        committee and your willingness to be here


      13        tonight.


      14             The agent for the applicant referenced the


      15        code and not meeting the code and that this


      16        house won't meet wind code.  I know in Riverside


      17        Avondale there's some 3,000 homes that were


      18        built over 50 years.  I know you haven't been to


      19        every one of them, but in your professional


      20        opinion, how many of those do you think would


      21        meet the current wind codes today?


      22             MR. GOLDSBURY:  Through the chair to


      23        Councilman Corrigan, probably no building built


      24        before 1994 is going to meet today's code.


      25        After Hurricane Andrew, the building codes were





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        stiffened significantly and they've got a little


       2        stiffer pretty much.  Not every year.  But


       3        before then, before '94, the 1994 standard


       4        building code, the houses were not built to any


       5        kind of standards like that.


       6             MR. CORRIGAN:  Okay.  And then Mr. Harden


       7        was referring to building code standards that


       8        are required to build now.  My understanding was


       9        that the code you use, when you looked at


      10        buildings that are historic in nature, is the


      11        501 section of the code; is that correct?


      12             MR. GOLDSBURY:  Correct.  That can be.


      13             You can design per other sections, but


      14        that -- you are allowed to design per 501, yes.


      15             MR. CORRIGAN:  Okay.  Thank you.  I


      16        appreciate it.


      17             Mr. Chairman, I don't really have any more


      18        questions.  I can speak on it if you want to or


      19        I can wait.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.  Go ahead.  I've got


      21        other folks in the queue.


      22             MR. CORRIGAN:  Well, if there are other


      23        questions, get the questions answered before


      24        I --


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  We'll let you





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        summarize at the end, then.


       2             I have a question, I guess, for Mr. Teal or


       3        Mr. Reingold.  I don't know who's better to


       4        answer it.


       5             My first question is, how long has this


       6        owner of the home owned it?


       7             MR. TEAL:  I believe the testimony -- to


       8        the Chair, I believe the testimony at the last


       9        hearing is that he purchased it -- and I'm going


      10        to -- around 1971.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      12             MR. TEAL:  So he's owned it approximately


      13        40 years.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  If this -- if the


      15        owner were allowed to demolish the home and


      16        rebuild, what requirements would he have to


      17        comply with for an historic nature?


      18             MR. TEAL:  To the Chair, any new


      19        construction would have to comply with the


      20        requirements of Chapter 307.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Can you go through those a


      22        little bit?


      23             MR. TEAL:  We might want to let


      24        Mr. McEachin do that since he's the expert in


      25        the field.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. McEachin, would


       2        you tell us what he would have to comply with on


       3        any new construction?


       4             MR. McEACHIN:  Yes, sir.


       5             In -- new constructions would -- of course


       6        they would always go to the commission.  And the


       7        criteria, we'd look at such things as


       8        compatibility of massing, materials, setback.


       9        And it would be done -- and not necessarily in


      10        relation to what's there now, but in relation to


      11        what's around it.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  When you say surrounding it,


      13        what do you mean, the street that he's on?


      14             MR. McEACHIN:  Yes.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Or the overall --


      16             MR. McEACHIN:  Yes.  The street that he's


      17        on, it would be in relation to what is there,


      18        the common setbacks that are there, relationship


      19        to building heights, massing, and materials.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      21             MR. McEACHIN:  That's in a general sense,


      22        but that's --


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  But,


      24        architecturally, would it have to be consistent


      25        with homes in that area, with the style of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        architecture, the products that are used?


       2             MR. McEACHIN:  It would, again, relate to


       3        stylistic elements that would be found in that


       4        area, as well as materials too, although there


       5        are some degree of flexibility as it relates to


       6        materials such as a contemporary new building.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.


       8             Mr. Redman.


       9             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      10             Mr. Goldsbury.


      11             (Mr. Goldsbury approaches the podium.)


      12             MR. REDMAN:  Through the Chair to


      13        Mr. Goldsbury, thanks again for your coming


      14        down.


      15             I know you testified to the wind load of


      16        this house, but how would this house,


      17        structurally, in your opinion, compare to the


      18        other houses in the -- in that -- on that street


      19        or in that -- in that area?


      20             MR. GOLDSBURY:  Through the Chair to


      21        Councilman Redman, I really didn't look at all


      22        the other houses in the area.  I did notice a


      23        few.  A few were definitely newer, probably in


      24        better shape, probably a little stronger, but


      25        I'd -- I'd really be hard-pressed to give you an





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        answer on that.  I really didn't look at the


       2        other houses.


       3             MR. REDMAN:  Were there other houses around


       4        there that have been recently constructed or


       5        reconstructed?  Recently built where another


       6        house was tore down?


       7             MR. GOLDSBURY:  I believe that's true, but


       8        I -- I didn't research that.


       9             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


      10             Mr. Teal, could you answer that question


      11        or . . .


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Either one.


      13             MR. McEACHIN:  Through the Chair to


      14        Councilman Redman, I believe that we actually


      15        have one going to the commission either this


      16        month -- on the property -- in the same block of


      17        Greenwood Avenue.


      18             MR. REDMAN:  That is being --


      19             MR. McEACHIN:  A new building, a new house.


      20             MR. REDMAN:  Coming up on a vacant lot


      21        where a previous house was constructed?


      22             MR. McEACHIN:  Yes.  But that previous


      23        house was not contributing to the district.  It


      24        was demolished by virtue of the fact that it was


      25        not identified as being historic.  It was so





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        altered that it didn't have any kind of historic


       2        fabric left to it.


       3             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


       4             Okay.  Mr. Corrigan, give me a better


       5        answer.


       6             MR. CORRIGAN:  I can expand on it a little


       7        bit.


       8             There's approximately four new houses in


       9        that area.  The historic district boundary does


      10        not cover that entire neighborhood.  It cuts off


      11        one line.  I don't know why it does and never


      12        really figured it out, but there was about four


      13        houses that were built in the last ten years


      14        that are actually just outside that boundary.


      15        And I know two of the four or about three of the


      16        four were because the two homes that were there


      17        were just -- were damaged by the hurricanes back


      18        in '03 and '04 and were flooded and then were


      19        deemed to be not repairable, so they were torn


      20        down and new houses were built.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Corrigan.


      22             Mr. Jones.


      23             MR. JONES:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      24             Through the Chair to Mr. Teal.  Can you


      25        mention the other criteria?  I apologize.  I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        wasn't here at the last meeting.  And if this


       2        request meets any of the requirements of the


       3        other.


       4             MR. TEAL:  Through the Chair to


       5        Councilmember Jones.  I think I'm going to again


       6        defer to Joel McEachin.  He's the one that


       7        actually wrote the report on this item, so he


       8        can testify better about what's in it.


       9             MR. JONES:  Through the Chair to


      10        Mr. McEachin, I think there are nine or ten


      11        criteria.


      12             MR. McEACHIN:  Yes.  Through the Chair to


      13        Councilman Jones, yes, there's ten criteria.


      14        There's four what we call general standards that


      15        are applied to all work that's done in the


      16        district.  And I can go through them one by one,


      17        but I guess the -- probably the best way to do


      18        it is to summarize it.


      19             When we talk about the buildings and the


      20        significance to the district, we're not -- we're


      21        relating it as to whether there's a high style


      22        or not as a high style.  That's not what we'd be


      23        looking at when we're talking about the


      24        importance to the district.  But the importance


      25        to the district is a contributing property.  It





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        has enough of its historic fabric to remain a


       2        contributing property.  So, therefore, the


       3        importance of it architecturally is not whether


       4        it's high style or not high style.  Obviously,


       5        it's not and there's other examples not only in


       6        the district but in the city.


       7             But its context -- but its relationship in


       8        the context of the district is as important as


       9        any other building in the district, whether it


      10        be on Richmond Street or Park Street or any part


      11        of the Riverside Avondale historical district.


      12             MR. JONES:  So it did meet the -- those


      13        four criteria?


      14             MR. McEACHIN:  Well, that's one of them.


      15             I'm not sure there's -- repeatedly talked


      16        about in the report.  And I just want to make it


      17        very clear that the reason we felt like that the


      18        demolition -- that we recommend that the


      19        demolition not go forward is the fact that it is


      20        a contributing building and it has enough of its


      21        historic fabric.  It's not been altered that


      22        much.


      23             MR. JONES:  Okay.


      24             MR. McEACHIN:  The alterations that have


      25        been done to it are very, very reversible.  I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        mean, you can take those wood shingles off in a


       2        day and re-expose the original siding, which


       3        seems to be in pretty good shape.  It's got some


       4        original windows.  And we think there's a side


       5        of the porch that was enclosed.  So these are


       6        not alterations that could not be reversed


       7        easily.


       8             MR. JONES:  Okay.  All right.


       9             Thank you.


      10             MR. McEACHIN:  At great difficulty --


      11        I'm sorry.


      12             The building, as you already heard, is --


      13        it's not difficult or impossible from saving it


      14        from collapse.  There's no establishment that


      15        there was an economic hardship on return of its


      16        value.  And, again, it still contributes to the


      17        district.  And we also didn't feel like that the


      18        case had been made that this was an undue


      19        economic hardship as defined in the ordinance


      20        code.


      21             So, in summary, our recommendation to the


      22        commission -- and the commission accepted our


      23        report -- was that the case had not been made


      24        per the ten criteria to warrant demolition of


      25        the property.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       2             MR. JONES:  And did it meet any of the ten


       3        requirements for demolition?


       4             MR. McEACHIN:  Well, there's such things


       5        as, for example, where the building can he


       6        replaced.  Let me just sort of read it to you


       7        because that's probably the best way to explain


       8        it.


       9             There's things like, you know, whether the


      10        building is one of the -- is a remaining -- many


      11        examples of its kind in the neighborhood or the


      12        county, region.  Of course it's not.


      13             There's a criteria about the difficulty and


      14        the possibility of reproducing such a building


      15        or structure because of its design, texture,


      16        material, detail or location.  Again, it would


      17        be very possible for somebody to build a house


      18        very similar to that.  It relates to height,


      19        massing, setbacks, construction material.


      20             So there are certain criteria, yes, that


      21        you might be in favor of the demolition.  But,


      22        overall, when you balance out the ten criteria


      23        and what they're saying, is that we do not think


      24        that case has made.


      25             MR. JONES:  Okay.  All right.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Thank you.


       2             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Jones.


       4             Mr. Brown.


       5             MR. BROWN:  Yes.  Through the Chair, a few


       6        questions.  Looking at remodeling versus the


       7        demolition process, will it reduce the value of


       8        the property to demolish the house and then


       9        rebuild it with original or like materials


      10        versus remodeling the property as it is right


      11        now?


      12             MR. TEAL:  Through the Chair to


      13        Councilmember Brown, there have been actual


      14        studies that were done on the economic impact of


      15        historic preservation; namely, the University of


      16        Florida did one in -- I believe it was 2004, and


      17        that's -- historic properties actually do retain


      18        their value and increase in value based upon the


      19        fact that they are protected.


      20             In essence, that -- because there's


      21        economic comfort, if you will, in property value


      22        for knowing exactly what your neighbors are


      23        allowed or permitted to do and what they're not


      24        allowed or permitted to do.  And so there is


      25        value in maintaining the integrity of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        historic district based upon that.


       2             As far as the economic valve of new


       3        construction, that would be based in large part


       4        on square footage, on, you know, those kinds of


       5        things.  And, you know -- so, you know, it might


       6        be a little bit apples to oranges comparison


       7        there because of the difference in, you know,


       8        kind of the special category that a historic


       9        structure would have versus new construction.


      10             Studies have shown that there is economic


      11        value in maintaining and preserving historic


      12        districts and that they do increase in value.


      13        Not only that, but they're somewhat insulated


      14        from drops in the market because it is a kind of


      15        specialized real estate desire.


      16             MR. BROWN:  Okay.  So unlike remodeling and


      17        then -- if it's a demolition process, then the


      18        home is no longer categorized as historic?


      19             MR. TEAL:  Correct.  The value in the -- in


      20        what's called historic fabric is original.  You


      21        could have a, you know, Hollywood reproduction


      22        of a historic district.  But even though it


      23        might look exactly like a historic district,


      24        it's not a historic district.


      25             The value in the historically-significant





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        features are because they are the original types


       2        of features, which is why demolition is


       3        considered to be, you know, kind of the ultimate


       4        removal of historic fabric because you cannot go


       5        back and recreate, you know, wood that was built


       6        in 1920 or windows that were constructed in


       7        1920.  And that's where the value comes from, is


       8        in the original features and in the original


       9        materials of the design structure.


      10             MR. BROWN:  Okay.  And then one other


      11        concern that I see with this is that oftentimes


      12        we may have intent to build and something


      13        happened and then the property becomes vacant.


      14        Is there a required time line if we were to move


      15        forward in terms of new development?


      16             MR. TEAL:  The ordinance code doesn't


      17        specify any turnaround time, if you will, for


      18        any demolished property.  Some vacant properties


      19        can remain vacant or will remain vacant until a


      20        property owner decides that they want to or that


      21        the market is capable of supporting


      22        redevelopment or new development on a piece of


      23        property.


      24             So the ordinance code doesn't require that


      25        once a property is demolished you have "X"





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        amount of time in order to build it.  So it can


       2        be vacant for as long as the property owner


       3        desires that it remains so.


       4             MR. BROWN:  Okay.  My final question -- I


       5        really didn't get a clear answer.  As to the


       6        best practice, did we have a situation in the


       7        district, one that we can -- an address that we


       8        can identify where it was demolished, rebuilt,


       9        and we could determine that it -- what they call


      10        value added to the community?  Oftentimes that


      11        kind of gives us guidance as to whether we can


      12        move in that direction if we have a best


      13        practice.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan.


      15             MR. CORRIGAN:  Through the Chair to


      16        Councilmember Brown, I don't know of one.


      17        There's been a significant number of vacant


      18        properties that have been vacant for a long time


      19        prior to -- prior to -- many of them prior to


      20        even Riverside Avondale Preservation being


      21        established, that in the last decade SRG and


      22        several other quality builders have come in and


      23        built fantastic homes on those vacant lots.


      24             I don't remember one that was -- an


      25        application for demolition was granted since the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        historic district has been established and then


       2        a new home built on it.  Every other case of new


       3        construction happened either because it was a


       4        vacant lot or maybe Property Safety went in and


       5        tore down a home that physically was falling


       6        down and then there might have been something


       7        built on that, but I think this would set a


       8        precedent if we did this today.


       9             MR. BROWN:  Okay.  Then my final question,


      10        do we know the number of vacant properties in


      11        this area, in this historic district, you know,


      12        where properties were demolished --


      13             MR. CORRIGAN:  I don't know that.


      14             MR. BROWN:  -- and not rebuilt?


      15             MR. CORRIGAN:  I mean, it's a pretty big --


      16        Riverside Avondale historic districts are pretty


      17        big districts.  Joel would be the best one --


      18        most likely one to be able to answer that.  No,


      19        not me.


      20             (Mr. Jones assumes the Chair.)


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. McEachin.


      22             MR. McEACHIN:  Again, through the Chair to


      23        Councilman Brown, I -- of course, I don't know


      24        off the top of my head how many vacant lots


      25        we're talking about in the Riverside Avondale





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        historic district.  I will say in some of the


       2        new construction, developers or the initial


       3        developers is -- they have a hard time finding


       4        lots because they're very interested in getting


       5        lots because there's a market for new homes in


       6        the district.  And the reason why there is is


       7        because -- the ambience of the district and the


       8        special (inaudible) of place that these


       9        districts have.


      10             Also, regarding the economic study,


      11        Riverside Avondale and Springfield was two of


      12        the neighborhoods that the -- that was used in


      13        this statewide economic study to show this --


      14        not only this maintenance of value, but usually


      15        an increase in value compared to nonhistoric


      16        neighborhoods.


      17             MR. BROWN:  Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown.


      19             Mr. Holt.


      20             MR. HOLT:  Thank you, Mr. Jones.


      21             Okay.  Well, we've learned a lot about


      22        historic districts.  Some of the things I did


      23        not know, that there have been other homes on


      24        this road that have been demolished and rebuilt


      25        on.  And this particular property has been owned





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        by the same owner since the '70s, prior to the


       2        historic district being established.


       3             And one of the things that Mr. Teal had


       4        said was that if someone were to rebuild on


       5        there, they would be held to certain


       6        requirements to be consistent with the other


       7        properties, which it seems to me that this


       8        property is not consistent with a lot of its


       9        neighbors, from what was said earlier, that many


      10        of the properties around it are larger and some


      11        of them new, some of them older and historic.


      12             And I tend to think that it's -- the proper


      13        thing to do here is to allow the demolition.


      14        What I fear, though, is that the property would


      15        end up staying vacant for a period of time.  I


      16        know you were just saying there is quite a bit


      17        of market for rebuilding in the area, but I'd


      18        like to have some sort of guarantee that it's


      19        not going to sit vacant for a while.  That's


      20        what gives me pause.


      21             Mr. Harden, can you come up, please.


      22             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)


      23             MR. HOLT:  And I'm asking you this on the


      24        spot.  So if you can't make a commitment for


      25        your client, then I understand.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             But, like I said, my -- what gives me pause


       2        is that we wouldn't want to see this property


       3        demolished and then just sit vacant for years


       4        and years.


       5             Would your client be willing to guarantee


       6        us that within a certain number of years that a


       7        new home would be built that would comply with


       8        the historic district?


       9             And, if so, Mr. Teal, how would we remedy


      10        that situation?  How would we guarantee that


      11        happens?  Once it's demolished, do we have any


      12        ability to fine them or in some way make sure


      13        that they build within a certain amount of time


      14        that we agree upon?


      15             Mr. Harden, if you could answer first.


      16             MR. HARDEN:  Yeah.  I don't think that's an


      17        unreasonable request.  On the other hand,


      18        there's a lot on my street that's been vacant


      19        since I've been living there.  So I think


      20        probably the issue may be to refocus, it would


      21        be that the lot not be maintained as a dirt lot,


      22        that it be grassed over or landscaped so long as


      23        it's not rebuilt, because there are vacant lots


      24        all over lots of communities.


      25             I mean, the intention is -- you know, is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        within the foreseeable future for his family to


       2        build a house there.


       3             Make sure -- and I think Jason went through


       4        and described -- or maybe it was Joel -- it's


       5        going to have to be rebuilt.  And, of course,


       6        with the criteria, you've got to go get a


       7        similar approval to build it.  So, you know,


       8        there's going to be some criteria that we'll


       9        require it be consistent with the development in


      10        the neighborhood.


      11             I don't have a guess as to how quick.  I


      12        don't -- you know, I'm willing to, you know,


      13        have a time frame and as long as it can be


      14        revisited.  But I think the key would be that it


      15        not be an eyesore while it's a vacant lot, that


      16        it be grassed or maintained in a -- you know, a


      17        nice-looking situation as long as it's an empty


      18        lot.


      19             So, yeah.


      20             MR. HOLT:  That would be in accordance --


      21             Mr. Teal, is there any way that we could


      22        have some sort of ability to fine them if they


      23        do not comply with -- and I'm just throwing out


      24        a number here -- within three years of the demo,


      25        that a new house be constructed?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. TEAL:  Through the Chair to the


       2        Chair --


       3             MR. HARDEN:  Through the Chair to the


       4        Chair.


       5             MR. TEAL:  -- the really -- I mean, I think


       6        the issue here is that once the building is


       7        down, it's down, and that that promise is really


       8        only as good as the building goes down.


       9             You know, yeah, we could technically fine


      10        them, you know, up to $500 for a violation of


      11        the zoning code, which I guess this would be.


      12        But, you know, I think that the real issue here


      13        is that you really can't properly hold their


      14        feet to the fire because of the fact that if


      15        they don't comply, we've still lost the


      16        building.


      17             And so in --


      18             MR. HOLT:  So you said up to $500.  I know


      19        some of these fines they approve daily or --


      20        would it be a situation where if they did not


      21        comply, they would be subject to a fine of $500


      22        a day?


      23             MR. TEAL:  Correct.


      24             The zoning code does make every day a


      25        separate violation.  And so it would be a matter





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of instituting a civil action to require or to


       2        get a court order basically to get that amount.


       3        But, yeah, we would be able to do $500 a day.


       4             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  First of all, let me --


       5        Mr. Reingold, is it proper for me, out of the


       6        chair, to suggest an amendment?


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  You could do it.


       8             MR. HOLT:  Okay.  I would suggest that --


       9        and feel free to jump in there, anybody else,


      10        and work with this.


      11             But I would suggest that maybe the thing to


      12        do would be to require that the site be


      13        maintained and grassed, if it is demolished, and


      14        require that within three years that a new


      15        structure be built that complies with the


      16        historic commission.  And, if not, then they can


      17        be fined $500 a day.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  There's an amendment by


      19        Mr. Holt.  Is there a second to that amendment?


      20             MR. REDMAN:  Second.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Second by Mr. Redman.


      22             Discussion -- on the amendment now.  We're


      23        on the amendment.


      24             Okay.  I've got Mr. Davis and then


      25        Mr. Joost.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. DAVIS:  I think the intent of the


       2        amendment is a noble intent.  I just don't know


       3        how you can enforce this or -- say they sell the


       4        lot and some unsuspecting buyer purchases it and


       5        realizes they've got a $40,000 lien on the lot


       6        that they didn't know about.


       7             I just -- I agree with your intent.  I just


       8        don't know how you could actually make it


       9        happen.  So I don't know if I could support it,


      10        although I agree with it.  So that's the only


      11        comment I have on the amendment.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Davis.


      13             Mr. Joost and then Mr. Brown.


      14             MR. JOOST:  I agree with Mr. Davis.  I


      15        don't know -- this -- me, personally, this is


      16        why I don't really like all the historic


      17        districts, because then you start telling the


      18        landowners what they can and can't do with their


      19        land and this and that.  And, you know, you're


      20        making rules up as you go.


      21             But given that this is a historical


      22        district, the value in the home is the historic


      23        nature.  Once you take the home down, the


      24        history is gone, you know.  And now you set the


      25        precedent which starts eroding the value of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        other neighborhoods.


       2             And, interestingly enough, the other


       3        gentleman that was talking about the


       4        hurricanes -- I'd already pulled up a track of


       5        Hurricane Dora.  It hit at the very southern


       6        part of St. Johns County.  That means this house


       7        would have been in the northeast quadrant, the


       8        strongest part of the hurricane, where the winds


       9        were 110 miles an hour.  I just looked it up --


      10        as reported by the National Oceanic and


      11        Atmospheric Administration.


      12             Okay.  This house -- that was 1964 these


      13        people built the house or bought it in 1971.  So


      14        within a relatively short period, this house has


      15        already proven that it can withstand


      16        110-mile-an-hour winds.  For me, that pretty


      17        much determines where I'm going to go with it.


      18             Thank you.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      20             Mr. Brown and then Mr. Corrigan.


      21             MR. BROWN:  Yes, through the Chair.  I do


      22        agree with what was stated.  How do we enforce


      23        this noble -- as I heard, "noble"


      24        recommendation?


      25             I'm more interested in, if we were going to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        move forward in demolishing the building -- or


       2        the home, the dwelling and the landscape, make


       3        sure that everything is dug out and -- you know,


       4        grass is fine.  But I can tell you that if it's


       5        unkempt, it would make the rest of the community


       6        look bad.


       7             And I also can tell you that in terms of


       8        the fines, I have a building within District 10,


       9        the fines have exceeded over $200,000.  It's


      10        still open.  The appeal process has happened,


      11        forgiveness, opportunities to get it right.  So,


      12        you know, I don't know whether I want to put the


      13        community through that process.


      14             But I will say, you know, if we're going


      15        to -- you know, I'll wait and hear from the


      16        district councilperson, but if we're going to --


      17        and then how do you require a homeowner that,


      18        for whatever reason, say, you know what, I want


      19        to start over, you know, in this process, and


      20        really falls within the boundaries of the law to


      21        do it?  Now, how do we say, no, you know, other


      22        than the fact that, you know, when they entered


      23        into this community -- I guess that was in


      24        1971.  Was it written then that this would not


      25        happen?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             You know, I mean, we're really kind of


       2        bordering on a lot of issues here.  But I will


       3        say this, that the community, regardless of what


       4        happens to it, that the property should not


       5        become an eyesore for the community.  And that


       6        would be my biggest concern.  But, again, I'll


       7        wait and kind of hear from the district


       8        councilperson.


       9             Thank you.


      10             MR. HOLT:  I will withdraw the --


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan, I think you'll


      12        like his motion to withdraw.  So without -- I


      13        guess you'll have to vote on it unless somebody


      14        has an objection.


      15             The amendment has been withdrawn.  I


      16        have --


      17             (Mr. Holt resumes the Chair.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan, do you want to


      19        go -- I've got two more.


      20             MR. CORRIGAN:  I'll wait.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Mr. Joost, you're on


      22        next or did you already --


      23             MR. JOOST:  Yes.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're done.


      25             Okay.  Mr. Redman.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       2             On the issue of having vacant property, if


       3        I remember correctly, in our previous meeting


       4        that the statement was made that this property


       5        might be vacant for some time before they decide


       6        to build.  I don't remember who said that, but


       7        that was brought up at that time.  And that -- I


       8        don't think that's the right thing to do.  If


       9        you're going to tear it down and build something


      10        else comparable, that's one thing, but to tear


      11        it down and leave a vacant lot there for a long


      12        period of time is another.


      13             Thank you.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Redman.


      15             Mr. Corrigan.


      16             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      17             I'll answer the question before it was


      18        withdrawn.  The only real evidence we have on


      19        what's going to happen with the land is what


      20        Mr. Lamb, who owns the property, said at the


      21        Planning Commission [sic].  He said that when --


      22        he rented the house for a number of years.  And


      23        when both the people that lived there went on,


      24        "My desire would be to demolish it and grass it


      25        and save it for my grandchildren."





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             He doesn't want to build a house.  He


       2        doesn't want a house, and his testimony says, "I


       3        don't want to be a landlord.  I want the house


       4        out of my way," so -- if he wanted to get the


       5        house out of his way, he could have put it on


       6        the market and sold it.  And he's never put it


       7        on the market.  He wants to maintain the


       8        property.  He just wants to clear it and keep it


       9        clear, according to his testimony that's in the


      10        documents that you were given on the appeal.


      11             First let me thank the committee for taking


      12        the time, twice, to spend a great deal of time


      13        on this.  I appreciate it.


      14             I'm not going to reiterate everything I


      15        said before on why I'm -- why I think that the


      16        committee should move to not grant the appeal.


      17             There was a question raised, I think by


      18        Councilman Jones, about does it meet the


      19        criteria or whatever, and I'll repeat what I


      20        said last time.  There's ten criteria.  It met


      21        seven of the ten criteria not to tear it down.


      22        There are three of the ten criteria that said,


      23        you know, there's a bunch of houses like it and


      24        it could be duplicated -- and I don't know


      25        exactly what the third one was, but -- and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        70 percent of it -- of the findings by the


       2        professionals that we pay a lot of money to,


       3        which is the Planning Department, said this


       4        doesn't warrant tearing down.  It will be a


       5        detriment if you tear it down.  That's what


       6        you've got to make your decision on.


       7             It's a tough decision.  I am glad I'm not


       8        on LUZ and don't have to make the decision


       9        because it -- it's easy to say, golly -- and I


      10        guess Mr. Joost kind of -- almost said it.  It's


      11        just a historic house and it's a pain in the


      12        rear.  Not in this case.  This case, it's


      13        setting a precedent that's going to say, you


      14        know, this house and another house -- what about


      15        the house next door to me?


      16             I mean, gosh, I don't want to have to come


      17        back three years from now and have to argue why


      18        the house next door to me should not be torn


      19        down.  I bought my house in Avondale because I


      20        knew the rest of my block was going to be there,


      21        short of having a devastating fire or


      22        something -- a tree fall through it or something


      23        else.  That's why the majority of people live in


      24        Riverside/Avondale, it's because they know that


      25        they're going to have old houses around and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        they're going to live in an old house.


       2             I don't want to know how close my house


       3        comes to meeting code.  That's not the issue


       4        here.  The issue here is should this house,


       5        which, according to the expert, Mr. Goldsbury,


       6        says is structurally safe to be there, should it


       7        stay there or should it be removed and replaced


       8        with a grass lot that's going to have long-term,


       9        permanent damage to that historic fabric of that


      10        neighborhood.


      11             So I would encourage one of the committee


      12        members to make a motion to deny the appeal,


      13        let's vote on it, and then go home and have a


      14        great evening.


      15             Thank you.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman.


      17             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      18             And this is a tough one because I could see


      19        merit on both sides to -- could go either way.


      20        And with something this close and an issue this


      21        close, I have to follow the lead of the district


      22        councilperson in this area.  He has to deal with


      23        this neighborhood on a regular basis and, you


      24        know, he -- I feel like he knows the issue and


      25        the neighborhood better than we can understand





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        it at this point, so I support him on this.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Jones.


       3             MR. JONES:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       4             I -- it is a difficult issue, but I think


       5        the way these districts are established -- there


       6        was a vote, and there are some neighborhoods who


       7        have applied for the historic designation and


       8        not received it because the people in that


       9        neighborhood didn't want the restrictions that


      10        it placed on it.  Riverside Avondale is one of


      11        those areas that did vote for this.  And with


      12        that in mind and the fact that it does not meet


      13        all the criteria, I would support the district


      14        councilman and the staff recommendation and


      15        recommend that we deny the appeal.


      16             MR. JOOST:  Second.


      17             MR. JONES:  I move the amendment to deny


      18        the appeal.


      19             MR. JOOST:  Second.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  We have a motion and second


      21        to deny the appeal.


      22             I've got two other people on -- on queue


      23        that wanted to speak before that motion.


      24             Mr. Joost, is that what you wanted to say?


      25             MR. JOOST:  (Nods head.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Well, we have


       2        Mr. Gaffney to speak.


       3             DR. GAFFNEY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       4             One question to Mr. Harden.  Can I ask you


       5        a question, please?


       6             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)


       7             DR. GAFFNEY:  Just want to get a little


       8        clarity here.


       9             What is the intent of your client with this


      10        property?


      11             MR. HARDEN:  To rebuild.


      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  To rebuild?


      13             MR. HARDEN:  Yes.


      14             DR. GAFFNEY:  Within what kind of time


      15        frame?


      16             MR. HARDEN:  He doesn't have a time frame.


      17             We're agreeable to the three-year time


      18        frame.  I asked him that during the break.


      19             DR. GAFFNEY:  Okay.  Thank you.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further speakers,


      21        we have --


      22             MR. JOOST:  I still want to speak on the


      23        motion.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Go ahead, Mr. Joost.


      25             MR. JOOST:  I think also what -- part of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        what we're doing here is -- if you go back to


       2        the original pictures, to the first hearing,


       3        they've owned this house since 1971 and it's


       4        been rented out a long time.  There are


       5        obviously deferred maintenance issues.  Okay?


       6             So, you know, in the back of my mind --


       7        like some of the other council people said,


       8        yeah, there are merits to both arguments.  But


       9        in the back of my mind, I'm sitting here saying,


      10        well, if you let them tear the house down, are


      11        you rewarding bad behavior?  Because they failed


      12        to maintain their property and allowed these


      13        maintenance issues to build up, build up, build


      14        up, you know, over time.


      15             And so that -- you know, looking


      16        historically at what happened, you know, with


      17        Hurricane Dora -- I know these -- you know, at


      18        one time, this house, yeah, it stood up to


      19        110-mile-an-hour winds.  Yeah, they've owned


      20        this house for almost 40 years.  You know, and


      21        the fact that -- if you look at the original


      22        pictures, the landowner is the one that allowed


      23        it to deteriorate to its current condition, and


      24        that's why -- you know, like I said before,


      25        generally, I don't like the historical





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        designations because then it gets into where


       2        people can tell me what I can do with my


       3        property.  But given the fact that this is a


       4        historical district, the people voted for it,


       5        those are -- those are the rules, I cannot


       6        support the demolition at this point and I


       7        believe we should deny it.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Any other


       9        speakers?


      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  None.  All right.  Well, we


      12        have an amendment to deny the waiver.


      13             All in favor of the amendment signify by


      14        saying aye.


      15             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Opposed.


      17             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  I need a motion to deny.


      19             MR. JONES:  Move the bill as amended to


      20        deny.


      21             MR. BROWN:  Second.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion and second to amend


      23        to deny the waiver.


      24             Please open the ballot.


      25             (Committee ballot opened.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HOLT:  (Votes nay.)


       2             MR. JONES:  (Votes yea.)


       3             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


       4             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


       5             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


       6             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


       7             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


       9        vote.


      10             (Committee ballot closed.)


      11             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, one nay.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      13        denied the waiver.


      14             All right.  And I believe that is the end


      15        of our agenda, folks.


      16             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      17             (The above proceedings were adjourned at


      18        6:31 p.m.)


      19                         -  -  -

















           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                  C E R T I F I C A T E




       3   STATE OF FLORIDA:


       4   COUNTY OF DUVAL :




       6             I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was


       7   authorized to and did stenographically report the


       8   foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a


       9   true and complete record of my stenographic notes.


      10             Dated this 7th day of March, 2010.








      14                                 Diane M. Tropia



























           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203