1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, January 5,
7 2010, commencing at 5:10 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 RAY HOLT, Chair.
REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
14 DANIEL DAVIS, Committee Member.
JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.
15 STEPHEN JOOST, Committee Member.
DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
16
17 ALSO PRESENT:
18 MICHAEL CORRIGAN, City Council Member.
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
19 SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
20 KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
JOEL McEACHIN, Planning and Development Dept.
21 JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.
DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.
22 MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.
23
- - -
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 January 5, 2009 5:10 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Happy New Year to
5 everybody.
6 Well, this evening we have a couple of
7 issues that I think are going to take quite a
8 bit of discussion, so I'd like to move those up
9 to the beginning.
10 Let's start off going around the horn and
11 introduce ourselves for those of us -- it eases
12 our way into it.
13 Mr. Crofts, start us off.
14 MR. CROFTS: Good evening.
15 My name is John Crofts, representing the
16 Planning and Development Department.
17 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
18 Development.
19 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
20 Development.
21 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford, Planning and
22 Development.
23 MR. REINGOLD: Dylan Reingold with the
24 Office of General Counsel.
25 And just want to wish everybody a Happy
Diane M.
Tropia,
3
1 New Year.
2 MR. DAVIS: Wow.
3 Daniel Davis.
4 MR. BROWN: Reginald Brown, District 10.
5 DR. GAFFNEY: Councilman Gaffney,
6 District 7.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ray Holt, District 11.
8 MR. JOOST: Councilman Joost, Group 3
9 at-large.
10 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4.
11 MR. CORRIGAN: Visiting Michael Corrigan,
12 District 14.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Since we have a
14 visiting council member here, we will move his
15 item up -- actually, I think I'd like to take
16 the two Racetrac bills first. Let's --
17 Members, let's go to page 7. Let's handle
18 items 15 and 16 first, get those out of the way,
19 and then we'll go to our appeal, which is on
20 page 11, and then we'll go through the rest of
21 the agenda.
22 All right. So starting with 2009-667, we
23 will open the public hearing.
24 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
25 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Chairman, before we start,
Diane M.
Tropia,
4
1 are you going to do the PUD and the land use map
2 together, or are you going to do them
3 separately?
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, let's open the public
5 hearing on both.
6 Do you have other cards for people that
7 just put for -668?
8 MS. STEPHENS: (Inaudible.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So we'll open the
10 public hearing for -667 and -668.
11 MR. REDMAN: Do I need to declare ex-parte
12 now?
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, go ahead.
14 Anybody who needs to declare ex-parte, go
15 ahead and do it now before we have our speakers.
16 Mr. Redman.
17 MR. REDMAN: Yes. I need to declare
18 ex-parte. I met with Paul Harden on several
19 instances, and Sean Kelly, with the community --
20 several community meetings. I met with David
21 Peck and others in the community.
22 January the -- today I met with Paul
23 Harden -- or if I met with Paul Harden and the
24 neighborhood. So I had several meetings,
25 discussed this, had some good conversation, good
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 collaboration. Mr. Harden come up with -- tried
2 to do a good job of making all the concessions
3 that he could to keep the neighborhood happy.
4 The neighborhood did not want this here, but I
5 think they all come together pretty good.
6 Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
8 Mr. Harden, I don't have a card from you,
9 but you're welcome to go ahead and --
10 MR. HARDEN: I'm sorry. I'll fill one out
11 when I'm --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: -- fill one out afterwards.
13 MR. HARDEN: Thank you.
14 Paul Harden,
15 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 This is a land use map and amendment --
17 I'm sorry. Mr. Reingold wants to speak.
18 MR. REINGOLD: I didn't know -- and I
19 apologize, Mr. Harden.
20 Did you want the staff to kind of introduce
21 their position on it and the conditions, or did
22 you just want to start with the speakers?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go ahead and have
24 Mr. Crofts set up.
25 Are we all up to date on all these
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 changes?
2 MR. HARDEN: You want me to sit back down
3 while they do that?
4 THE CHAIRMAN: And then Mr. Harden can
5 comment.
6 MR. HARDEN: Okay.
7 MR. CROFTS: Mr. Chairman, members of the
8 committee, we're hearing two bills regarding
9 this Racetrac proposal. I will speak to
10 ordinance 2009-667, which is the land use
11 portion of it, and I will defer to Mr. Kelly to
12 speak in regard to the PUD. He has worked
13 extensively with this -- this PUD through the
14 various meetings and is most familiar with it.
15 What we have before us this evening is a
16 land use amendment from LDR to CGC and, again, a
17 rezoning from commercial general, CCG-1, and
18 residential low density, RLD-60, to planned unit
19 development.
20 This proposal and this property fronts
21 along
22 existing Racetrac station as well as three
23 residential lots that we incorporated into the
24 proposal.
25 The Planning and Development Department, as
Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 it relates to the land use amendment, has
2 determined that this particular proposal is
3 consistent with several policies, particularly
4 policies 1.18, 1.10, 1.16, as well as objective
5 3.2, 322, policy 324, and policy 327.
6 The proposed amendment, we feel, is an
7 expansion, sustains infill, and promotes the use
8 of a planned unit development. It avoids and
9 prohibits scattered and low density development
10 in a sprawl type of situation.
11 We feel that the proposed application,
12 along with the PUD rezoning, and the conditions
13 within the PUD provide the buffering and the
14 landscaping adjacent to the surrounding
15 residential areas as in keeping and consistent
16 with the comprehensive plan.
17 And for those reasons, we recommend
18 approval of the land use amendment.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly.
20 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
21 To the Chair, to the committee, PUD
22 rezoning 2009-668
is Racetrac,
23 Boulevard.
24 We have met -- the department -- with the
25 neighborhood representatives and Mr. Harden.
Diane M.
Tropia,
8
1 There was a list of conditions from the
2 community that were brought to our attention
3 yesterday of which have been incorporated into a
4 revised written description dated today,
5 January 5, '09 [sic].
6 The department has reviewed the written
7 description and I can go through specifically
8 the changes to the written description which
9 have been incorporated.
10 Additionally -- because of those changes to
11 the written description, there are changes to
12 the conditions from the Planning Commission
13 memorandum where there was conflicts. Those
14 conditions were either struck and replaced and
15 there's been some revisions in there.
16 And, additionally, this afternoon, after
17 the agenda meeting, there were two additional
18 conditions that were discussed regarding
19 improvements on
20 Specifically, I'll go to the neighborhood
21 list of recommendations. Specifically, there
22 were 14 proposals on that -- on that list.
23 Essentially, the department did not object to
24 those conditions and those requests, neither did
25 the applicant for the most part. There were
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 some concerns. I'll read them into the list.
2 And these will be, again, incorporated into the
3 written description, but these represent the
4 changes to the written description.
5 Provisions for stop signs on the station,
6 exits at both Shadowood and Valencia will be
7 installed. A creeping fig will be planted to
8 grow up against the brick wall. Additionally,
9 the brick wall will wrap around Valencia toward
10 Atlantic as shown on the site plan. It will be
11 built before construction activity begins.
12 This is a brick/stucco wall provision for
13 that. Oh, I'm sorry. It's a brick wall only.
14 There's a brick or stucco column that will be
15 incorporated as an entry feature to the Oak Park
16 community setback around the rear property line
17 of the service station fronting Valencia that
18 will be an entry feature for the Oak Park
19 community.
20 Additionally, due to the hours of
21 operation, the applicant has agreed to
22 incorporate a JSO stop station, which will be
23 incorporated into the floor plan and design of
24 the store.
25 There were issues that we had with
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 potential U-turns and improvements on Atlantic
2 Boulevard that would not be able to be really
3 controlled. Through the PUD, they are subject
4 to FDOT review and approval, so we have
5 incorporated those as additional conditions that
6 I will read on the record.
7 Additionally, irrigation will be provided
8 along the wall. The planting of the trees or
9 shrubs that are there, if they die will have to
10 be replaced at any point. Additionally, some
11 low voltage landscape lighting will be provided
12 along the back of the wall adjacent to the
13 residential.
14 Then there were some issues with some of
15 the uses that were struck within the written
16 description itself, specifically a self-service
17 laundry facility was struck from that list.
18 Additionally, there will be no outside
19 telephones, and a bus stop is going to be
20 relocated from the corner of Valencia and
21 Atlantic. And that the requirement to ensure
22 that the 50-foot buffer as provided on the site
23 plan, to ensure that nothing can be built on
24 that buffer and that it cannot be used for any
25 storage.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 These changes were from a list that was
2 brought to the meeting last night and these have
3 been incorporated in the revised written
4 description dated today, January 5th.
5 So, with that, the conditions for approval
6 from the department and the Planning Commission
7 are condition 1, "The development shall be
8 subject to the original legal description dated
9 March 11, 2009."
10 Condition 2, "The developer shall be
11 subject to the revised written description dated
12 January 5th, 2010."
13 Condition 3, "The development shall be
14 subject to the revised site plan dated
15 November 23rd, 2009."
16 Condition 4, "Required transportation
17 improvements shall be made in accordance with
18 the Development Services Division memorandum
19 dated October 27th, 2009, or as otherwise
20 approved by the Planning and Development
21 Department."
22 Condition 5, "The developer shall submit a
23 lighting site plan, including fixture types and
24 footcandle illumination, for the review and
25 approval of the Planning and Development
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Department at the time of PUD verification of
2 substantial compliance.
3 "All pole lighting shall be limited to
4 15 feet in height and be consistent with the
5 design guideline 1.7.7 and D1.12, and including
6 all figures D1.12(a), D1.12(b), and D1.12(c) of
7 the Jacksonville Design Guidelines and Best
8 Practices Handbook, other than the two dumpster
9 and underground tank locations which may be
10 25 feet tall.
11 "Furthermore, the site planning shall be
12 consistent with D.1.2 and D1.11.
13 "Furthermore, the gas station canopy shall
14 be consistent with guidelines D1.21, D1.22,
15 D1.23, and D1.27."
16 From that condition number 5, D1.19 has
17 been struck. That dealt with the limitation on
18 the canopy height. And the guidelines are
19 recommending it at 15 feet. My understanding,
20 in order for the trucks to maneuver onto the
21 site, that they need at least 18 feet and
22 6 inches, and so the department has struck that
23 requirement for the canopy height.
24 Condition 7 has been reworded, specifically
25 this was done with General Counsel and myself
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1 this afternoon. I believe both the neighborhood
2 and the applicant is agreeable to this
3 condition: "The applicant shall provide a brick
4 stucco wall eight feet tall with a creeping fig
5 vine installed along the wall located behind the
6 service station and along the building facing
7 Valencia Drive consistent with guideline 1.5.20
8 and figure 1.5.20(a) of the Jacksonville Design
9 Guidelines and Best Practices Handbook."
10 Those specify the planning areas on the
11 other side of the wall adjacent to the
12 residential.
13 Additionally, condition 8 -- and
14 condition 7, sorry -- the screen wall shall be
15 constructed prior to construction of the
16 development, and screening of the dumpster
17 enclosure shall be consistent with guideline
18 1.6.4 of the Jacksonville Design Guidelines and
19 Best Practices Handbook.
20 Condition 8 is as approved by the Planning
21 Commission as well as condition 8 was, "At the
22 time of verification of substantial compliance,
23 the applicant shall submit building elevations
24 which are similar to those proposed in the
25 application as Exhibit L and subject to review
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 and approval of the Planning and Development."
2 Condition 9, "The existing pole sign on the
3 site shall be removed and only one monument
4 style sign shall be permitted not to exceed
5 200 square feet in area and 20 feet in height."
6 Condition 10, "Outdoor speakers shall be
7 prohibited except as otherwise required by the
8 fire code."
9 Now, there were two additional conditions
10 discussed after the agenda meeting this
11 afternoon. These would be conditions 11 and 12.
12 Condition 11 would read, "If approved by
13 FDOT, a westbound left turn and median break
14 shall be provided to the apartment complex
15 entrance east of the subject property as part of
16 the roadway improvements to Atlantic
17 Boulevard."
18 And condition 12 would read, "If approved
19 by FDOT, a westbound exiting median refuge lane
20 shall be provided as part of the roadway
21 improvements to Atlantic Boulevard."
22 Pending those 12 conditions, the department
23 is recommending approval.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly. Sorry
25 I forgot to go to you first.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Mr. Harden, do you want to --
2 Mr. Reingold, did you want to jump in
3 there?
4 MR. REINGOLD: I just would have liked to
5 have heard just a repeat of condition
6 number 11. It's just the first time I've heard
7 it before.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
9 MR. KELLY: It reads, "If approved by FDOT,
10 a westbound left turn only and median break
11 shall be provided to the apartment complex
12 entrance east of the subject property as part of
13 the roadway improvements to Atlantic
14 Boulevard."
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Got it?
16 MR. REINGOLD: (Nods head.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Harden, are
18 you okay with those 12 conditions?
19 MR. HARDEN: Yes, sir.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Go ahead, sir.
21 MR. HARDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22 Paul Harden, 501 Riverside Avenue.
23 This is a land use amendment and PUD to
24 facilitate the redevelopment of an existing
25 Racetrac station. The station has been located
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1 for many decades, is in the need of updating.
2 It's important to note that the existing
3 facility has no limitations on access to side
4 streets, no limitation on hours of operation,
5 and it's currently built in a conventional CCG-1
6 zoning category.
7 The site plan -- the new site plan limits
8 the commercial use to the existing established
9 CG depth as shown to the parcel to the east.
10 You have a map there. So we don't go any deeper
11 than already CGC is to the east.
12 The PUD provides and has incorporated
13 numerous protections. Mr. Kelly went through
14 them, but their best practices and screening,
15 lighting, signages and a greatly up- -- greater
16 enhanced landscaping.
17 In the numerous meetings with the
18 community, three main issues were raised. One
19 were issues of design. We have provided to you
20 a rendering of the building. You see it. It's
21 an all-brick building, state-of-the-art
22 facility.
23 Second, landscaping and buffer issues were
24 raised. You have a landscape plan that I have
25 provided to you that is part of the PUD. It
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1 provides much greater buffering and landscape
2 than the zoning code and is presently -- and as
3 is presently on the commercial site.
4 The final main issue raised early on was
5 access to Valencia. Currently, my client has
6 unlimited access to Valencia off the site. It's
7 not constructed, but we own the CG parcel
8 adjoining it. The neighbors asked that we
9 perform a traffic study, which we did.
10 That study resulted in numerous traffic
11 calming and construction activities. One was to
12 allow no right-out access from the site onto
13 Valencia, construct three dedicated lanes on
14 Valencia.
15 Right now, Valencia is a 12-foot-wide road
16 that really two cars can't go on. We're
17 providing additional width for the road on the
18 Racetrac site in constructing three lanes for
19 access left and right coming out, and then an
20 access coming in.
21 While we have no obligation to make these
22 improvements, they are changes that were part of
23 the traffic study we agreed to do.
24 One final point on the traffic, our main
25 access is going to be off Shadowood at a
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1 controlled access at that location.
2 After all of these changes, the Planning
3 Commission reported out a recommendation of
4 approval.
5 We since met with the neighbors on two
6 additional occasions as late as last night.
7 They provided us a list of 14 additional
8 conditions, all of which have been incorporated
9 into the written description that Mr. Kelly has
10 been through.
11 Councilman Redman was at the meeting at
12 that time, and I asked the neighbors, "Are there
13 any more conditions you want?" And they said,
14 "No. These are the conditions that we want."
15 This site is an infill site. It won't
16 require any activity for further sprawl as
17 Mr. Crofts indicated. It's a perfect chance for
18 an upgrade. It's a perfect chance to go from a
19 CCG-1 to a PUD with multiple conditions. We
20 tried to address every objection raised and we
21 believe we've done so.
22 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
24 Any questions for Mr. Harden?
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, we'll go to our next
2 speaker.
3 Mr. Peck, David Peck, followed by Tom
4 Monell followed by Sharon Redfearn, I believe.
5 I apologize if I butchered anybody's name.
6 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. My name is David
8 Peck. I live at 5153 Martha Ann Drive.
9 We have met with all concerned and are
10 pretty much in agreement, except for we
11 appreciate Councilman Redman's input and Paul
12 Harden's working with the DOT to try to resolve
13 the issues that we just discussed, so we -- we
14 appreciate all that's been done and we accept up
15 to a point without -- before we get to DOT and
16 appreciate the effort and working to resolve
17 these issues.
18 Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
20 Hold on for just a second, sir. Mr. Redman
21 has a question for you.
22 MR. REDMAN: Mr. Peck?
23 MR. PECK: Sir.
24 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Peck, for being
25 here.
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1 And Mr. Peck has been basically the leader
2 for the neighborhood and has been the leader in
3 every meeting that we had for the neighborhood
4 and done a very good job and communicated with
5 them and looked after their interests and is a
6 very hard bargainer, so I appreciate him.
7 And I know that -- I just want to make a
8 statement that I have made a commitment myself
9 to work with and work towards --
10 MR. PECK: Yes, sir.
11 MR. REDMAN: -- the issues with the DOT
12 that we need and we promise that we will try to
13 get. So just want you to know and the community
14 to know that I will push for that as hard as I
15 can.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. PECK: Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
19 Mr. Monell, followed by Sharon Redfearn.
20 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
22 My name is Tom Monell. I live at 5135
23 Martha Ann Drive, Jacksonville, Florida.
24 I just wanted to say we've had a lot of
25 hard work with Don and Paul and everybody
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1 concerned here with this issue, and I think
2 we're pretty close to getting everything
3 resolved. We've still got some traffic,
4 unresolved traffic issues, I think, and I -- Don
5 has assured us that -- and Paul, that they'll
6 work with DOT and try to get -- we've got a
7 dangerous intersection there. And with the
8 additional traffic, it's just going to make it
9 worse, and just going to have to impress on DOT
10 somehow to get these changes made.
11 That's about it.
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
14 (Audience member approaches the podium.).
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
16 I'm Sharon Redfearn.
17 I appreciate the opportunity to talk with
18 you all.
19 I had written something out that got
20 e-mailed. Hopefully, you have a copy, and I'd
21 like the chance just to read it real quickly.
22 I live and own a home at 1529 Glengarry
23 Road. And I moved here when I was quite young
24 and bought this home, and I really liked
25 Jacksonville. It was a great family community,
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1 I thought. It offered a lot of family-sponsored
2 activities, and I enjoyed raising my daughter
3 here.
4 However, living off of Atlantic Boulevard
5 is truly very trying. It's six lanes of traffic
6 and the speed limit, although it's 35, I can
7 tell you that it's not enforced. I never see
8 anyone being pulled over, given a ticket,
9 stopped, and so on.
10 I live directly across the street. I have
11 spoken to no one in regards to this issue. No
12 one has come to me. I've seen no signs posted
13 in regards to this rezoning. I happen to hear
14 about it at Publix, of all places, by the woman
15 who was standing in front of me.
16 So I can tell you that I'm not -- I'm in
17 strong opposition to this. I realize now -- I
18 work in the health care field, and I thought it
19 was pretty complicated. But I've decided that
20 this, trying to sort out who do I speak to and
21 the channels that I need to go through through
22 City Council, is very, very complicated.
23 That being said, I realize I'm way behind
24 the eight ball sitting here tonight in regards
25 to what has already been discussed and clearly
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1 what is in the process of being decided.
2 I do have a lot of concerns because I live
3 directly across the street. I mean, we have a
4 lot of traffic noise, riffraff. My home has
5 been broken into twice, you know, since I've
6 been living there. And it is a hard place to
7 live.
8 I feel like this is really creating a very
9 undesirable environment for us to continue to
10 live. It's very close to where I work. I work
11 at Wolfson's Children's Hospital. So it has
12 been -- it has been, until this point in time, a
13 great neighborhood with good people who live
14 there.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
17 Could you hold on just a moment?
18 Mr. Redman has a question for you.
19 MS. REDFEARN: Yes.
20 MR. REDMAN: Ms. Redfearn, right?
21 MS. REDFEARN: Yes.
22 MR. REDMAN: I did receive an e-mail or
23 call. I didn't have a chance to respond to it.
24 I know you live in -- this borders two
25 districts. Mr. Bishop is on the other side of
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1 the street.
2 MS. REDFEARN: Right. And I had spoke to
3 Suzanne Warren. So no one told me this until I
4 returned from Christmas and they put up the
5 fence around Raceway and they were in the
6 process of doing some demolition. And I called
7 Suzanne Warren on Monday, when everyone had
8 returned to office, and she then put me in
9 contact with Mr. Kelly. I think she gave me his
10 phone number.
11 And so I then called and left you a message
12 and then sent e-mails. So, unfortunately, I
13 didn't know -- you know, I thought I had to deal
14 with my City Councilman, who is Mr. Bishop, yes.
15 MR. REDMAN: Okay. I'm sorry we dropped
16 the ball in not getting with the other side of
17 the street. I know there should have been
18 notices sent out to whatever the distance is.
19 MS. REDFEARN: And there's nothing posted.
20 There's nothing posted.
21 MR. REDMAN: There was a sign posted.
22 MS. REDFEARN: I run every day. I run, and
23 I can tell you there are no -- I and some of my
24 friends were looking specifically for these
25 posted signs, and I see none posted.
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1 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
2 MS. REDFEARN: I can tell you that's not
3 the case. And, you know, I feel like there's a
4 certain obligation because this is an
5 established neighborhood. There has to be an
6 obligation from the City of Jacksonville to
7 somehow protect us from this.
8 I want the same thing all of you want. I
9 want a safe, clean, attractive place to live.
10 And I feel like -- and I already have behind me
11 an office complex, the fence is beginning to
12 deteriorate. They have a huge light and it
13 has -- I don't think what -- I, again, have no
14 idea what it's supposed to be, but there is a
15 light. It's very high that shines into the back
16 of our lawn. The garbage collectors come, you
17 know, the big -- at 4:00 a.m. When I tried to
18 discuss this with them -- fortunately, there is
19 a system through the City of Jacksonville where
20 I can call and complain about the noise, but it
21 happens on a routine basis. So, you know --
22 MR. REDMAN: Well, I think, you know, that
23 this is going to be a better view. The lighting
24 will be more of a direct lighting.
25 MS. REDFEARN: Well, I understand that it's
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1 going to be a huge -- I mean, this is going to
2 be huge. When I look out my front window, I'm
3 going to see nothing but this.
4 MR. REDMAN: You live on the other side of
5 Atlantic Boulevard?
6 MS. REDFEARN: I do. It's almost directly
7 across from Racetrac, yes.
8 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
9 MS. REDFEARN: Oh, yeah, it's going to
10 be -- this is going to be a big impact on our
11 neighborhood.
12 MR. REDMAN: Okay. That's about the side
13 of the road that goes into Episcopal?
14 MS. REDFEARN: It's close to. It's a
15 little -- yes, it's kind of across from
16 Valencia, just a little bit across from
17 Valencia.
18 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
19 MS. REDFEARN: It's right -- you know,
20 there's -- I want to say it's Live Oak and then
21 Glengarry and then there's an office complex and
22 then Empire Point.
23 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Those houses are set
24 back a ways off of Atlantic, though, right?
25 MR. REDFEARN: Oh, no, sir. I'm three lots
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
27
1 from Atlantic Boulevard. Oh, no. I hear the
2 bus that stops on the corner. I get to hear
3 whatever it does.
4 MR. REDMAN: Three lots from Atlantic
5 Boulevard?
6 MS. REDFEARN: Three lots, uh-huh.
7 MR. REDMAN: And so you don't have a
8 driveway coming out to Atlantic Boulevard?
9 MS. REDFEARN: No. My driveway is on
10 Glengarry Road.
11 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
12 MS. REDFEARN: And so it's my -- so it's a
13 security -- you know, they took all the houses
14 that had been residential. And if it was vacant
15 for a certain period of time, it became a
16 business. So now I have a DSI Security, there's
17 an empty lot, and then my house.
18 MR. REDMAN: I'm sorry we didn't
19 communicate with you.
20 MS. REDFEARN: Yeah, my neighbors had no
21 idea about this either.
22 MR. REDMAN: Thank you for being here.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
24 All right. Seeing no further speakers,
25 we'll --
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Chairman, I supplied these
2 (indicating) as part of our earlier
3 presentation. This was originally set for a
4 hearing October 6th. It's been deferred for six
5 cycles. Here are the pictures of the posted
6 signs that are still up there. I'll be happy to
7 pass them around. There have been public
8 hearings.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to go ahead and
10 put them in, put those into the record?
11 MS. REDFEARN: No, they're not.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no further speakers,
13 we'll close the public hearing.
14 Do we have a motion?
15 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: We're on -667.
17 MR. BROWN: Move the bill.
18 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on
20 2009-667.
21 Mr. Joost.
22 MR. JOOST: I guess this would be through
23 the chair to Mr. Kelly or even Mr. Harden or
24 Mr. Redman.
25 I was just curious if you're going to make
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
29
1 Valencia, it looks like, off of Atlantic
2 Boulevard a one way out where you can either
3 turn, I guess, left or right. You're making the
4 two turn lanes there. Why on Atlantic Boulevard
5 would you have a westbound turn lane if you're
6 not even going to be able to turn into
7 Valencia?
8 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Chairman, I can probably
9 explain.
10 MR. JOOST: Looks like Valencia is right
11 there on the -- going out to Atlantic, it looks
12 like it's got a left and a right and that one
13 part is one way out. Is that ----
14 MR. HARDEN: Yeah, there's --
15 May I, Mr. Chairman?
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
17 MR. HARDEN: There will be now three lanes
18 on Valencia. There will be a turn lane into
19 Valencia. And then next to that, there will be
20 a dedicated turn lane westbound onto Atlantic to
21 Valencia. And then next to that will be a
22 dedicated eastbound turn lane on Valencia. So
23 there will be three lanes at that location.
24 MR. JOOST: I just -- I didn't see the
25 little lane there off to the side. Okay.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 MR. HARDEN: Yeah. There will be -- and
2 that's what I said, we're widening it onto our
3 site so there's now 36 feet and there's three
4 lanes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: It shows better on this one
6 (indicating).
7 MR. HARDEN: Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah,
8 there's a site -- a traffic plan that's a little
9 bit better.
10 MR. JOOST: Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
12 MR. REDMAN: Anybody else on the queue
13 or --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis.
15 MR. REDMAN: Go ahead, Mr. Davis.
16 MR. DAVIS: I was just going to say I drive
17 by this gas station every day heading to work,
18 and I believe this is going to be a pretty
19 improvement as far as what I can see, and I
20 appreciate Mr. Redman working hard to make that
21 facility much better.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
23 Mr. Redman.
24 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 We have had a lot of discussion on this and
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
31
1 I understand the community's concern. Their
2 biggest concern was, you know, that all the
3 traffic -- they have a hard time as it is
4 getting out on Valencia -- from Valencia. Their
5 only exit on -- or entrance into their
6 neighborhood is Valencia.
7 But, you know, the adjustments that have
8 been made here with the three lanes of traffic
9 and the pattern that has been derived from this
10 may not be the best in the world, but I think
11 it's as good as they can come up with. And the
12 Racetrac people and Mr. Harden have pushed and
13 pushed and pushed, you know, and tried to give
14 everything they can to make this feasible for
15 the community.
16 I worked with the lighting and worked with
17 the -- the barriers between the building and the
18 neighborhood and moved it out farther. And, in
19 general, most of the people in the neighborhood,
20 you know, I know they say they just didn't want
21 it period, but they feel like they have come up
22 with a -- from what I understand, as long as we
23 work hard to get DOT to do the traffic situation
24 to where it would make it better for them to get
25 in and out and for the apartment complex next
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
32
1 door as well, I think that we're going to come
2 up with a good thing.
3 So I would encourage my colleagues to go
4 ahead and support us on this and pass it
5 through.
6 Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
8 Seeing no further speakers, we will open
9 the ballot on 2009-667.
10 (Committee ballot opened.)
11 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
14 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
18 the vote.
19 (Committee ballot closed.)
20 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
22 approved 2009-667.
23 2009-668, we have an amendment. This is
24 the rezoning.
25 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
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1 MR. REDMAN: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
3 rezoning. I'm sorry. A motion and second on
4 the amendment of the rezoning.
5 All in favor of the amendment -- hold on.
6 Mr. Reingold.
7 This is the amendment as stated by
8 Mr. Kelly.
9 MR. REINGOLD: Perfect.
10 I just had one comment to it, and the
11 committee can obviously do as it pleases.
12 The 11th and 12th conditions, which were
13 regarding the FDOT issue -- and, again, applaud
14 Councilman Redman for saying he was going to
15 step up and work with FDOT and the community to
16 get those issue resolved.
17 Just as worded, though, I wasn't sure how
18 enforceable they really are and such that I
19 didn't know if the committee still wanted to
20 keep them in or tweak them a little bit to try
21 to make them a little more enforceable. They
22 just essentially say, look, if FDOT approves
23 them, they've got to do them, but whether the
24 improvements are sought or whether they get
25 approved are sort of outside of our scope.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir, for
2 clarifying that.
3 The amendment we're voting on is as stated
4 by Mr. Kelly.
5 All right. All in favor signify by saying
6 aye.
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, the amendment
11 passes.
12 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
13 MR. REDMAN: Second.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
15 bill as amended.
16 No speakers, please open the ballot.
17 (Committee ballot opened.)
18 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
21 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
25 the vote.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 (Committee ballot closed.)
2 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
4 approved 2009-668.
5 Thank you all for all your hard work on
6 that.
7 All right. Let's go on to page 11, top of
8 the page, number 28. This is our appeal, the
9 decision of the Jacksonville Historic
10 Preservation Commission.
11 And let me just set this up. I'd like for
12 Mr. Teal to first tell us what happened at the
13 Historic Preservation Commission, then we're
14 going to kind of divvy this up as best we can
15 between the two sides. We will give equal time
16 to Mr. Harden and all the opposing sides.
17 Mr. Harden will go first and he can reserve
18 whatever time he wants. I'm going to give
19 15 minutes to RAP, and then three minutes for
20 anyone else that wants to speak in opposition,
21 and five minutes to Mr. Teal to discuss the
22 reasoning that the Historic Preservation
23 Commission had and their decision, and then
24 Mr. Harden will have his leftover time to rebut
25 what was discussed.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 So let's start. Mr. Teal, if you could
2 first tell us what happened at the Historic
3 Preservation Commission.
4 MR. TEAL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 Through the Chair to the committee, this is
6 here before you, resolution 2009-910, which is
7 an appeal from the Historic Preservation
8 Commission for an application to demolish a
9 single-family residential structure at 1945
10 Greenwood Avenue. It was filed by a Bronson
11 Lamb, Jr.
12 The Historic Preservation Commission
13 applied the criteria that are required through
14 Chapter 307 of the ordinance code to be
15 reviewed, in addition to the -- when you're
16 talking about a demolition, there are several
17 additional criteria that are required. They
18 reviewed all of that, based upon the report of
19 the Planning and Development Department, and
20 voted to deny demolition of the structure.
21 Since then, the applicant has filed an
22 appeal with the Land Use and Zoning Committee or
23 the City Council to be heard by the Land Use and
24 Zoning Committee, which is the item before you
25 today.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
2 We'll need to open the public hearing.
3 Mr. Harden, you're on for your first time,
4 and then you can reserve whatever time --
5 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
6 MR. HARDEN: Before I start, let me ask you
7 to pass --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Hold on just a
9 second, Mr. Harden.
10 MR. HARDEN: Sure.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Anybody that has ex-parte,
12 let's go ahead and declare that up front.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Corrigan.
14 MR. CORRIGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 I'd like to declare ex-parte communication
16 with the applicant, who I had a conversation
17 with prior to the appeal but mostly
18 procedurally; and a conversation with Mr. Harden
19 concerning the scheduling; and the procedure for
20 the appeal with Carmen Godwin, the executive
21 director of RAP; with numerous other residents
22 who left phone messages for me. And most all
23 the conversations I had were procedural in
24 nature.
25 Thank you.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: No one else?
2 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Go ahead when you're
4 ready, Mr. Harden.
5 MR. HARDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 Paul Harden, 501 Riverside Avenue.
7 As Mr. Teal indicated, this is an appeal
8 from an action by the Historic Preservation
9 Commission denying Mr. Lamb's request to
10 demolish a home. This property was acquired by
11 Mr. Lamb back in the '70s. He's owned it for
12 over 35 years. He's owned it for more than
13 25 years before the historic overlay came into
14 effect.
15 I have provided to you two opinions that
16 we'll ask you to consider tonight. The first
17 one is John Burrows. Mr. Burrows is a
18 certified -- State-certified building
19 contractor. And then a letter from Doyle Kelly,
20 who is a consulting structural engineer.
21 Mr. Burrows' opinion has numerous photographs of
22 the building attached to it so you can see for
23 yourself exactly the facility that we're dealing
24 with.
25 Mr. Lamb purchased this house so that his
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
39
1 mother-in-law could reside there. She lived
2 there for a long period of time. She is now
3 deceased, and he believes that the best use of
4 this property is to demolish the house. And we
5 believe that we meet the criteria for the
6 demolition, and we'd ask you to rely on these
7 two opinions.
8 First, let me go through Mr. Burrows'
9 opinion. And I'm not going to read the whole
10 opinion, although it's available to you. At the
11 bottom he indicates that he spent a great deal
12 of time on the house. During the time he spent
13 at the premises, "at no time did I get the
14 impression I was in a historic building.
15 Rather, my impression was that it's an
16 89-year-old building with a great deal of
17 deferred maintenance issues present. See
18 attached photos."
19 And you can see in the photos the status of
20 the property. He describes in his report the
21 exterior, it's wood shake shingle. The
22 importance of that is that's not the original
23 exterior to the property. There was shake
24 shingle put on it prior to his acquisition many
25 years ago. Some of the shingles are falling
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
40
1 off. Some of the old siding is still there, but
2 it's not the original situation.
3 The exterior window openings, as stated in
4 Mr. Burrows' report, are covered with aluminum
5 storm windows and screens. That is to say they
6 are not the original windows -- because it's
7 important -- because you'll see in some of the
8 reports of the Planning Department, they're
9 suggesting that they are the original windows.
10 The roof covering consists of Fiberglass
11 shingles, obviously not a roofing material used
12 in the 1920s, but that the current roof is at
13 the end of its economic life.
14 The next item that he notes is the attic,
15 that there are a set of collar beams, but every
16 third set of rafters were never installed. This
17 is an important item because you're going to see
18 in the next report that the house is
19 structurally unsafe, and part of it is as a
20 result of the fact that every third set of
21 rafters was never installed in the original
22 house.
23 The next indication is that there was
24 originally a garage apartment on the property
25 but that that garage was removed and that the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
41
1 driveway is still there, but it's in bad shape.
2 So, again, the house doesn't have the original
3 configuration that it had.
4 On the interior, there is nothing of
5 special significance notes Mr. Burrows. The
6 wooden windows are painted shut and have burglar
7 bars. The kitchen, bath and laundry are all in
8 need of updating.
9 Mr. Burrows then also explains that the
10 house would have to be completely rewired to
11 make it safe. Currently, the house is wired
12 using knob-and-tube wiring. Knob-and-tube
13 wiring, he notes, will result in the house being
14 uninsurable if it stays in place. So that's an
15 expense that you would have to go to to make the
16 house liveable.
17 In summary, his opinion is the home has no
18 historic value. The garage and garage apartment
19 have been demolished. The exterior has been
20 modified, the storm windows are not in keeping
21 with the 1920 period. The cost to rebuild the
22 incomplete systems does not warrant the
23 expense. And then he suggests that the cost --
24 it's only a 1,384-square-foot house, by the
25 way. To do the interior systems would be
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 slightly over $22,000.
2 The second report that I would ask you to
3 consider is the report of Doyle Kelly.
4 Mr. Kelly indicates that he has reviewed
5 Mr. Burrows' report. Mr. Kelly, by the way, is
6 a structural engineer, and he is opining with
7 regard to the structural integrity of the
8 property.
9 Mr. Kelly indicates that what -- to bring
10 the house up to structural integrity would
11 require a complete set of structural
12 calculations to prove the design would hold its
13 structure at 119-mile-an-hour wind. The roof
14 system is now supported -- this is the last
15 paragraph -- by outside walls and vertical
16 members. The vertical members help to reduce
17 the deflection of the roof system.
18 The members are not anchored to the walls
19 and do not have capacity to resist the required
20 uplift produced by wind.
21 The first sentence of the second page is
22 the one I want to particularly call your
23 attention to. "Trying to strengthen the
24 existing frame system to support the updated
25 loading would far exceed the cost of a complete
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
43
1 replacement of the home."
2 So Mr. Kelly, a structural engineer, has
3 opined that it would cost more to make this
4 structurally safe than it would cost to build a
5 new house at the location.
6 Now, that does not include the cost of the
7 $22,000 of interior improvements that
8 Mr. Burrows indicated in his report. And,
9 again, that's doing nothing to the exterior,
10 which is cedar shake shingles, which was not the
11 original design.
12 Now, with those comments in mind, I want to
13 call your attention to the criteria that
14 Mr. Teal indicated to you, and they're part of
15 the Planning Department report. I'm going to
16 focus on the ones with regard to demolition.
17 The first one is -- not in general, the
18 first one. The importance of the building or
19 structure to the ambiance of the historic
20 district. What the report of the Planning
21 Department says is it's our opinion that the
22 building has enough of its original design to
23 continue contributing. So it doesn't say if
24 it's 5 percent, 2 percent, 10 percent,
25 50 percent. It just says we think there's
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 enough to make it a contributing structure.
2 The second -- the next criteria, number 3,
3 the difficulty or impossibility of reproducing.
4 They indicate in their report that reproduction
5 is not impossible. So that criteria is, in
6 fact, met even by the Planning Department's
7 report.
8 The fourth criteria is whether the building
9 or structure is one of the last remaining
10 examples of its kind. The Planning Department
11 says that this style is common to the
12 neighborhood. Obviously, then, it's not one of
13 the last. So that criteria to allow demolition
14 is met.
15 The fifth one was whether or not there was
16 reuse of the property. Said there was no reuse
17 plans described, but I think Mr. Burrows
18 indicated that -- in his report, that it would
19 be rebuilt at this location.
20 The sixth criteria is the difficulty or
21 impossibility of saving the building or
22 structure from collapse.
23 Now, take in mind the fact that the
24 structural engineer who has reviewed this has
25 said the cost of doing that would exceed the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
45
1 cost of a new building on the site, not counting
2 anything else. So I would respectfully suggest
3 that it's difficult to save the structure of the
4 building because it costs more than building a
5 new house.
6 Now, the seventh one really hits on this
7 direct issue, whether the building is capable of
8 earning economic return on its value. What they
9 would propose is that the applicant spend more
10 than it would cost to build a new house, then
11 another $22,000 to redo the interior, and then
12 do whatever he has to do on the exterior.
13 I would respectfully suggest that that
14 would determine that there is no economic return
15 on the value if you spend what is going to be in
16 excess of the value of a new house at the
17 location.
18 Number 8 is whether there are feasible
19 alternatives to demolition and certainly there
20 are. The feasible alternative would be to build
21 a new structure on the location. It is not, in
22 fact, a feasible alternative to spend more than
23 the cost of the value of building a new house
24 just on the structure and then spend more money
25 to redo the interior and more money to do the
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 exterior.
2 And the final criteria -- and this, again,
3 hits on the issue before us today. It's whether
4 it would be an undue economic hardship to deny
5 the property owner the right to demolish the
6 property.
7 I would respectfully suggest it would be an
8 undue economic hardship to ask Mr. Lamb to spend
9 more than the cost of a new house at this
10 location by some further percentage and -- and
11 then have what would basically be an old house
12 that doesn't look like it was built when it was
13 built in the 1920s.
14 The goal of the Historic Preservation
15 ordinance is to preserve things that contribute
16 that look like the historic structure. This
17 house clearly does not. You have multiple
18 pictures. The exterior doesn't, the interior
19 doesn't. The building, when it was built,
20 wasn't built structural sound, and the cost of
21 bringing it up to speed is an undue economic
22 hardship.
23 Now, let me call your attention. You have
24 before you as part of the record the transcript
25 of the Planning Commission [sic]. On the two
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
47
1 criteria that the Planning Department suggest
2 are not met -- because all the rest of them I
3 think by the record are not met -- is whether or
4 not the alterations are reversible, taking the
5 building back to the original appearance. In
6 other words, could you spend some more money,
7 not just the cost of restructuring it, not just
8 the 22,000 on the interior, but taking the
9 back -- the exterior to make it look -- and the
10 answer of the Planning Department is, as far as
11 I can tell -- well, in all due respect, if you
12 look at the pictures, as far as they can tell,
13 is incorrect.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: You're at ten minutes, by
15 the way.
16 MR. HARDEN: Sir?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: You're at ten minutes, by
18 the way.
19 MR. HARDEN: Thank you, sir.
20 The next issue is the weight of the
21 building. The Planning Department indicated --
22 they opined to the Historic Preservation
23 Commission that they didn't think that the
24 pressure, that is, the structural thing, was
25 very serious. I don't know how reversible that
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 is. Well, you have today an opinion from a
2 structural engineer who indicates that the cost
3 of doing that would exceed the cost of building
4 a new house at the location.
5 The final thing I want to call to your
6 attention is that RAP published in their
7 community newsletter a comment on this property,
8 and I have it before you. It says -- they're
9 discussing whether to demolish or restore a
10 building, and here's how they describe this
11 property:
12 "Most recently, a longtime resident" --
13 that's my client -- "wants to tear down a 1920s
14 bungalow because demolition is cheaper than
15 restoration. The quaint home located on
16 Greenwood Avenue" -- and I ask you to look at
17 the pictures and see if it's a quaint home on
18 Greenwood Avenue --"is in overall good
19 condition."
20 Now, in all due respect, if you will read
21 the reports of the experts, the RAP suggestion
22 that this quaint home is in overall good
23 condition is just not an accurate statement of
24 the facts.
25 I would ask you to consider the actual
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
49
1 facts of the experts that we've tendered to
2 you. I'd ask you to consider the photographs
3 you have in front of you. Consider the
4 application of those facts to the criteria. It
5 costs more to make it structurally sound than
6 build a new house there. That doesn't say
7 anything about what the interior and the
8 exterior cost or redoing the driveway will cost.
9 I believe that Mr. Lamb's request meets the
10 criteria and we respectfully ask this committee
11 to allow us to move forward with the demolition
12 permit.
13 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. And you have
15 used 12 minutes and 20 seconds.
16 Any questions for Mr. Harden?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
19 And we'll go to the representatives of RAP
20 at this point. And we'll be giving you guys
21 15 minutes. I don't know how many of you we
22 have but -- okay. So it's basically three
23 minutes each.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
50
1 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Kay Ehas, and
3 I reside at 2322 Dellwood Avenue. I'm the
4 current chair of Riverside Avondale
5 Preservation.
6 By the way, my home still has knob and tube
7 and I've been insured for 20 years.
8 In the 24 years between RAP's founding and
9 the passage of the ordinance creating the
10 Riverside Avondale Historic District, we lost
11 fully one quarter of all the historic structures
12 to demolition.
13 The issue we're here to discuss today, the
14 proposed demolition of yet another great old
15 home, is the very reason RAP sought the
16 legislative protections of the historic district
17 status in the first place.
18 In 1988, the residents of Riverside
19 Avondale voted by referendum to establish the
20 historic district. The Jacksonville City
21 Council then created regulations in the
22 ordinance governing changes to structures within
23 the district. It was a democratic process
24 approved by both property owners and elected
25 officials. And every homeowner in the district,
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
51
1 regardless of whether they were part of the
2 81 percent who voted in favor of the referendum,
3 has enjoyed a dramatic increase in their
4 property values as a result.
5 On page 4 of our presentation, you'll see a
6 chart comparing median sales in Riverside
7 Avondale with the rest of the county. The chart
8 provides ample evidence that homes in
9 Jacksonville's designated historic district not
10 only have experienced impressive gains in their
11 values since the district was established, but
12 have also held their value better in the recent
13 economic downturn than almost any other part of
14 Jacksonville.
15 So what accounts for the stability and
16 strength in the historic district's property
17 values? It's the fact that buyers believe the
18 preservation ordinance helps protect their
19 investments. They know the ordinance was
20 designed to preserve their neighborhood's
21 historic character by providing protection for
22 the unique architectural materials and
23 craftsmanship in these older homes.
24 They know the ordinance also is supposed to
25 ensure their neighbors' protected property is
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1 less likely to be altered in a manner that might
2 reduce their own property's value. Trusting in
3 the protections the ordinance is supposed to
4 provide, Riverside Avondale residents have
5 infused millions of dollars in the local economy
6 by renovating and rehabilitating their
7 properties. The City, in turn, has collected
8 higher property taxes as money invested and as
9 property values increase.
10 So what are these protections that were
11 promised? They're pretty simple really and very
12 clear. Contributing structures in historic
13 districts are to be maintained rather than
14 demolished and historic features repaired rather
15 than replaced.
16 Our presentation will show that there is no
17 legal basis for demolition. The home is a
18 historically contributing structure in good
19 condition. Pages 7 and 8 of our presentation
20 show structures in much worse shape than the
21 Greenwood Avenue home that have been
22 rehabilitated.
23 Our presentation will show that economic
24 hardship does not exist in this case. Our
25 presentation also will show the Jacksonville
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1 Historic Preservation Commission was accurate
2 and thorough in its ruling, and Florida courts
3 have upheld similar denials of demolition
4 requests.
5 We believe granting demolition to the
6 contributing structure in good condition would
7 emasculate the historic preservation ordinance
8 that protects historic districts. If we accept
9 the owner's argument at face value that the cost
10 of fixing and maintaining this house imposes an
11 economic hardship, then couldn't the owners of
12 every vacant and unsold property claim the same
13 thing?
14 Granting this demolition appeal
15 dramatically lowers the bar for any future
16 demolition request.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
18 I have Mr. Love, James Love.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
21 My name is James Love, and I live at 1740
22 South Edgewood Avenue. And for the past 26
23 years, I've owned and operated a business in the
24 historic district and also have a fourplex in
25 Avondale.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 I'm the president of the Park and King Area
2 Association and have been a board member of
3 Riverside Avondale Preservation and now speaking
4 against the destruction of the bungalow at 1945
5 Greenwood Avenue.
6 The City Council has added ten additional
7 hurdles, criterias to the historic ordinance to
8 determine if a home is -- in the historic
9 district may be demolished.
10 Criteria number 1, is the building of
11 historic or architectural significance? And
12 number 2 is, Is the building of historical
13 importance to the ambience of the district? The
14 answer is yes to both those cases.
15 The City of Jacksonville's Riverside
16 Avondale design regulations states that it's a
17 contributing structure, and it was listed in
18 1998 in the documents which made us a historic
19 district. And it also states that these
20 structures are to be maintained and preserved in
21 the historic district, not demolished.
22 This cute 1920 shake bungalow is not only
23 historic by architectural historians, but is
24 individually listed on the contributing
25 structure list by City -- COJ regulations. By
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1 multiple definitions, this 1945 Greenwood Avenue
2 home is of historical value and architecturally
3 significant, and to say otherwise is folly.
4 The home actually predates the platting of
5 Avondale. It was literally on the edge of
6 Jacksonville when it was built.
7 Criteria number 3, Is it difficult or
8 impossible to reduce such a building because of
9 design or texture or material or detail or
10 unique location? The answer to this is, yes, of
11 course.
12 This bungalow is the oldest building on the
13 block, 1920. The hardwood floors of these older
14 homes are magnificent when refinished. And also
15 it has the plaster walls. To build this home
16 again would be very difficult if not
17 impossible.
18 Criteria number 4, Is the building or
19 structure of this last remaining example of its
20 kind in the region, the county, or the
21 neighborhood? Well, there's not very many
22 outside of a historic district. So you can say
23 yes to that too. Go try to find one in Mandarin
24 like this. You can't because they're only built
25 from 1910 to 1930.
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1 Just because it's not the only particular
2 style does not provide reason for demolition.
3 For example, in the American Bungalow Magazine
4 features entire neighborhoods of bungalows that
5 are all protected. This lovely little bungalow
6 easily meets the first four criterias set into
7 place by the City Council. Jacksonville was
8 fortunate to have bungalows and a few --
9 We're fortunate to have any left, and to
10 tear down even one would be a travesty because,
11 if we did, then all we would -- all it would
12 take is for anyone owning a bungalow just to let
13 it -- you know, defer a little maintenance,
14 declare it's too expensive to maintain, and then
15 rip it down if we allowed this to happen.
16 Please don't let this happen.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, if you'd come back up,
18 Mr. Redman has a question.
19 Councilman Redman.
20 MR. LOVE: Yes, sir.
21 MR. REDMAN: Thank you.
22 Would it make any difference to RAP if the
23 type of structure that was built -- rebuilt
24 there, if it was tore down? I mean, if you were
25 to try to build a structure that fit in the
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1 neighborhood, that fit in, would that make a
2 difference?
3 MR. LOVE: Oh, yeah, it's a contributing
4 structure. And when you tear down a building,
5 it takes away from its historical character.
6 It's very important that it stays where it is,
7 and building --
8 We've had a few built that looked like old
9 homes, but they were built on vacant lots that
10 either were houses that burned down or they were
11 crack houses that they moved or something, but
12 this is not the case here.
13 MR. REDMAN: So y'all are -- your group is
14 denying the fact that these pictures that are --
15 the other party had that showed the structure
16 being in the poor condition, that it's in --
17 MR. LOVE: Right. Well, there's a lot of
18 homes that need maintenance. Okay? And 22,000
19 for a lot of folks in the Riverside Avondale
20 area is not a lot of money of maintenance to
21 do. You don't have to do it all at once. You
22 do it a little bit at a time.
23 It was being lived in just I think a year
24 and a half ago, so it's not like it couldn't be
25 lived in. It wouldn't take much to bring it up
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1 to living conditions. To bring it up to
2 pristine conditions would take a lot, but not
3 living conditions.
4 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
6 Kevin Kuzel.
7 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: That's me.
9 Before I begin, I'm going to be talking
10 about City Council criteria 5 through 8, which
11 was added by the City Council concerning
12 demolition.
13 And Mr. Love spoke about 1 through 4, and
14 I'm going to be relying on information that
15 Mr. Lamb and Mr. Harden -- I'm assuming Mr. Lamb
16 has provided to the JHPC.
17 My name is Kevin Kuzel. I live at 1130
18 Acosta Street, near Park and King, in
19 Riverside. I'm a member of the board of
20 directors of Riverside Avondale Preservation and
21 a treasurer for the Park and King Area
22 Association.
23 I've been a longtime advocate for the
24 rights of property owners. However, there are
25 circumstances where the desires of the property
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1 owner and post consequences on the surrounding
2 area, the community, and must be challenged.
3 In a reference to the desire of Mr. Lamb to
4 destroy his historic structure at 1945 Greenwood
5 Avenue, this is one such circumstance. This is
6 not a personal disagreement. There's nothing
7 personal about it. It's a matter of law.
8 City Council has added ten criteria that
9 must be considered. I'm going to be talking
10 about 5 through 8:
11 Number 5, whether there are definite plans
12 for the reuse of the property if the structure
13 is demolished.
14 Number 6, difficulty in saving the
15 structure from collapse.
16 Number 7, is the structure capable of
17 earning a reasonable financial return on its
18 value?
19 And 8, whether there are other reasonable
20 or feasible alternatives to demolition.
21 Mr. Lamb has stated to the JHPC that he has
22 no plans whatsoever beyond demolishing this
23 bungalow except clearing the land and creating a
24 vacant lot. I don't think there's any reason to
25 have a historic district or a preservation
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1 commission to protect vacant lots.
2 The house at 1945 Greenwood is not in
3 danger of collapse. Relatives of the owner
4 lived in the home up until recently.
5 Historic planners determined there is no
6 major damage on the interior or exterior of the
7 structure and there's no evidence that the roof
8 is causing problems or further damage to the
9 structure.
10 Mr. Lamb has included with his request the
11 reports of three different contractors and an
12 engineer, none of whom say the building has
13 severe structural damage. Most of the reports
14 show the major problems are with systems or
15 utilities that were removed by Mr. Lamb, the
16 owner.
17 Mr. Burrows' report states he was hired to
18 evaluate whether the home has historical
19 significance, but no one of his findings has
20 anything to do with historic value, only items
21 that need to be replaced or repaired.
22 Other issues such as broken concrete on the
23 driveway and a roof and other things you see in
24 the pictures that Mr. Burrows submitted are all
25 things that are easily remedied or
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1 grandfathered.
2 John Burrows' report shows numerous
3 problems, none of them being structural. You
4 can be sure that if all the houses with numerous
5 problems in a historic district were demolished,
6 we would be losing at least one-third of the
7 historic district.
8 Are there feasible alternatives to
9 destroying the house at 1945 Greenwood? Of
10 course there are. This property could be sold.
11 With a purchase price of $9,500, admittedly, in
12 1970 or approximately then and a renovation
13 estimated approximately 22,000, you estimate a
14 net profit could exceed $280,000.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. Your time
16 has expired.
17 MR. KUZEL: Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: I have Jennifer Mansfield.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Hi, Ms. Mansfield.
21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
22 I'm Jennifer Mansfield. I've lived at 2043
23 College Street for nine years. I am a
24 litigation attorney at Holland & Knight with an
25 emphasis in construction law, lien law, and real
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1 estate litigation.
2 In 2001, I bought my house. I had real
3 concerns about the neighborhood, but I purchased
4 it anyway because I knew that the ordinance that
5 protected this neighborhood would also protect
6 my investment and home.
7 Like the house on Greenwood Avenue, my
8 house had the original siding covered with a
9 different siding, and yet it was nonetheless
10 classified as a contributing structure to the
11 neighborhood, as it should be, whether the
12 Greenwood home contributes to the historic
13 district was determined during the surveys
14 conducted in the 1980s and adopted into
15 ordinance in 1998. So it's not really an issue
16 as to whether this Greenwood home is historic or
17 architecturally significant. That was decided
18 over a decade ago.
19 Under the ordinance, the building is
20 contributing. Criteria 9, which is on page 22
21 of our papers, states that the City Council,
22 like the JHPC before it, should consider whether
23 the property no longer contributes to the
24 historic district.
25 On page 12 is a black-and-white photograph
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1 of the house taken at the time of the initial
2 survey. If you compare that photograph to the
3 photograph on page 5 of the present condition,
4 it is readily apparent that the only discernible
5 difference in the building is that the roof
6 shingles were replaced.
7 Because there's been no significant change
8 to the structure since it was listed as
9 contributing by the city, there can only be one
10 conclusion. The building continues to be
11 contributing and the appellant cannot meet
12 criteria number 9.
13 That brings us to criteria number 10 on
14 page 24, whether it would be an undue economic
15 hardship to deny demolition.
16 As stated by other speakers, there is no
17 economic hardship. The property is capable of
18 making a good economic return. Moreover, there
19 is no economic waste, which is when the cost of
20 repair exceeds the value of the home after
21 repairs.
22 The structural engineer gives no prices and
23 there's no evidence of how much it would cost
24 and they have not satisfied their burden. The
25 evidence that was presented by the appellants is
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 only $22,000 in repairs and does not even come
2 close to establishing economic waste.
3 Undue economic hardship means that the
4 applicant must prove that he actually has a
5 hardship in maintaining the property and that
6 the hardship must be unreasonable. It does not
7 mean that an owner should not have to spend any
8 money if he doesn't want to.
9 If proof of that were needed for that
10 obvious point, you would only need to look at
11 the city zoning and health codes to know that
12 property owners have a responsibility to
13 maintain their property and can be made to spend
14 money in order to do so.
15 Likewise, we quote and cite a court on
16 page 25 of our papers for the proposition that
17 an owner may incidentally be required to make
18 out-of-pocket expenditures in order to remain in
19 compliance with an ordinance, but that does not
20 invalidate the ordinance.
21 We also cite other legal cases continuing
22 to page 28 of our papers. Those cases represent
23 legal principles important to this case but
24 simple in concept. They are, there has to be
25 standards and criteria for the historic
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 district, which we have. Those standards and
2 criteria must be followed by the party hearing
3 the application -- that includes LUZ and City
4 Council -- and those standards must be applied
5 equally to every one. To not do so will open
6 the floodgates to further appeals to this body.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
8 Ms. Godwin.
9 (Ms. Godwin approaches the podium.)
10 MS. GODWIN: Thank you.
11 In summary, this application does not meet
12 the basic regulations, nor does it meet any of
13 the additional criteria for demolition within
14 the City of Jacksonville's ordinance, which is
15 our legal guide.
16 It's clear that there's no economic or
17 physical justification to demolish this
18 structure. First, it's historically
19 contributing. In fact, it's the oldest home on
20 this block. It's in good overall condition, as
21 noted by the evidence the applicant provided to
22 the historic commission, the fact that relatives
23 lived there within the last year, and through
24 physical inspection by the lead historic
25 preservation staff employed by the COJ.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 The owner himself states that he has no
2 plans for the property, and it is definitely
3 capable of earning an economic return on its
4 value even through rental or sale, seeing how he
5 purchased the property for $9,500 and it's now
6 valued at over 300,000 on the property
7 appraiser's web site.
8 Allowing demolition where the legal
9 criteria cannot be met will have major negative
10 consequences for our entire neighborhood. This
11 case is out in the public domain. It is high
12 profile. Our community is watching and they're
13 waiting for your decision.
14 Overturning the JHPC decision will set a
15 major precedence because in over 12 years, the
16 LUZ has only overturned one JHPC decision to
17 deny demolition. It happened only one year
18 after the ordinance was in place, and that home
19 had major termite damage and had been stripped
20 of all of its windows and doors.
21 The City established the historic district
22 regulations. Over 80 percent of our residents
23 who cast ballots voted this set of laws into
24 place. These regulations must be applied to
25 everyone in the district equally no matter their
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 station and must be used when determining this
2 appeal.
3 As mentioned, state and U.S. courts have
4 upheld historic district regulations in other
5 unfounded demolition cases. Eighteen hundred
6 other people in our district bought their
7 property prior to the ordinance going into
8 place.
9 If you use this to support a decision to
10 demolish, one-third of our historic structures
11 would be in jeopardy of demolition.
12 Appendix 1 in your packet is a letter from
13 the Florida Trust asking you to uphold the
14 JHPC's decision.
15 There's no evidence that either Burrows or
16 Kelly, the structural engineers, that have been
17 provided to you show that evidence. There's no
18 evidence that they have any experience with
19 historic properties. Knob-and-tube wiring and
20 storm windows covering original windows are
21 common in historic districts, and this house has
22 been structurally sound for over 90 years.
23 The JHPC has architectural engineers and
24 construction experience, and they have
25 experience with historic properties. They have
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1 been fair in their rulings in the past, and they
2 have allowed demolitions where there was
3 substantial damage to a home or when it was
4 deemed noncontributing.
5 They certainly considered all the evidence
6 in this case and stated they only supported
7 their decision.
8 Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Godwin, could you come
10 back up. I don't know if you gave your name and
11 address. Mr. Joost wanted it.
12 MS. GODWIN: My name and address?
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Or Mr. Redman. I don't know
14 if we got it in the record.
15 MS. GODWIN: Carmen Godwin, 2623 Herschel
16 Street.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
18 MS. GODWIN: Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Now, I have -- I
20 thought we were only going to have five speakers
21 from RAP, but we have a lot of other people here
22 that want to speak in opposition.
23 If I call your name and you decide that you
24 would rather pass, just let me know. That's
25 fine.
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1 We have Steve Congro. Is that it?
2 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry if I butchered your
4 name.
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Steve Congro, 2577 Forbes
6 Street.
7 I won't take much of your time. I'm here
8 because I stand behind RAP and I oppose the
9 demolition of this home.
10 I've lived in the area for about five years
11 and have owned my current home for about a
12 year. I chose to purchase my home for many
13 reasons, but one of the most significant was
14 because of the fact that it is located in a
15 historic district.
16 Traditionally, the historic districts in
17 cities hold their value better than nonhistoric
18 districts. We've seen proof of that with the
19 national recession that we've had. If you look
20 at Jacksonville home prices, the historic
21 district has lost less than most -- than the
22 Jacksonville average.
23 Demolishing this home would set a bad
24 precedent in enforcing the historic ordinances
25 that we currently have. It will give any
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1 property owner the right to let their house fall
2 into neglect, not put money into their house,
3 and just in the end claim economic hardship and
4 demolish it.
5 Many of the issues that were brought up
6 such as knob-and-tube wiring and painted shut
7 windows are the case in many homes in Riverside
8 and Avondale, including my own. This home,
9 purchased 60 years after Hurricane Katrina -- or
10 excuse me -- Hurricane Dora, was said to need
11 about $22,000 in maintenance. If after 40 years
12 of owning my home it only needs $22,000 in
13 maintenance, I'll be thrilled.
14 For these reasons and the reasons that have
15 already been stated, I'm opposed to this
16 demolition.
17 Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
19 Brandy Maddox.
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Waive.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Wayne Wood.
22 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. I'm Wayne Wood.
24 I'm -- live at 2821 Riverside Avenue. I'm the
25 author of Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 and several other books on Jacksonville's
2 architecture and history.
3 So about in October, Mr. Lamb and his wife
4 called me and said they'd like to come by and
5 visit and talk about this property, and I
6 invited him over to my house. And I think they
7 were seeking my blessing for demolishing the
8 house, little realizing that I had a very strong
9 stake and opposed that and explained to them
10 why.
11 You know, this building is not the Taj
12 Mahal, let's face it, but it's a contributing
13 structure to an important historic district.
14 Jacksonville has very few historic districts.
15 Riverside Avondale is one of the largest
16 historic districts in the south. It's known
17 throughout the southeastern United States, and
18 it has the largest collection of bungalows of
19 any neighborhood in the state of Florida.
20 Bungalows are a significant architectural
21 specimen, and his specimen is a very good
22 contributing structure, and I told him so. This
23 is a historically- and architecturally-
24 significant house.
25 I chuckled a while ago with Mr. Harden. He
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 gave a ruling that this was not a historic
2 structure. And I dare say that I'm one of the
3 few historic architectural historians in this
4 room, and I will testify that this is a
5 significant structure.
6 You know, I told Mr. Lamb that he has lots
7 of alternatives, and he admitted that the
8 integrity of the house that had been compromised
9 was at his own doing and that there are many
10 houses in the neighborhood much worse than this
11 that will be fixed up as has been testified to.
12 He could rent it, he could sell it, he
13 could donate it and get a huge tax write-off if
14 he doesn't want the house, or he could even do
15 another clever thing called a facade easement,
16 which he would get a major tax write-off and
17 could keep the house. And he said he would
18 consider those things. And we left after a very
19 cordial meeting, and I honestly thought that he
20 was going to call it off. I remarked to him
21 that for the cost of paying a high-price
22 attorney, as he's doing, he could have restored
23 the house and solved many of the problems.
24 And I've been to dozens if not hundreds of
25 meetings like this over the last 30 years trying
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1 to preserve our neighbor- -- our historic
2 district's integrity and save what is a jewel of
3 Jacksonville's architecture. Riverside Avondale
4 Preservation -- Riverside Avondale historic
5 district is known throughout the south, and
6 retaining that quality is a very -- great value
7 to the city of Jacksonville, and that's why this
8 body passed the historic preservation
9 ordinance.
10 The Historic Preservation Commission is
11 your expert, your expert, and they have ruled
12 unanimously that this building should not be
13 torn down. It is viable historically,
14 structurally, and every other means. And to
15 vote against this would emasculate, would
16 devastate the historic preservation ordinance
17 and will become the first precedent where a
18 historic, viable structure has been allowed to
19 be demolished.
20 And I plead with you, don't set that
21 precedence. Do what is right for our
22 neighborhood. It's what the majority of the
23 people in our neighborhood want and it's in the
24 best interest of the city of Jacksonville.
25 And I thank you very much.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
2 Louise De Spain.
3 (Ms. De Spain approaches the podium.)
4 MS. DE SPAIN: Louise De Spain, 1851 North
5 Liberty Street.
6 I'm not a resident of the Riverside
7 Avondale area. I'm from Springfield, and I do
8 represent SPAR. And I'm not going to reiterate
9 any of the things that have already been said.
10 I would like to just add that I am also
11 opposed to the -- I am opposed to the demolition
12 for the very same reasons that you've heard from
13 all of the residents who live in that area.
14 I live in a 1,400-square-foot bungalow that
15 code enforcement didn't even want to come close
16 to. It's now a beautiful home. I've restored
17 three houses in Springfield. Any one of those
18 could have been torn down for a better reason
19 than this one, and they were not torn down, and
20 now three families live in them.
21 So I would join with them and say, please,
22 do not let this demolition happen.
23 Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
25 Margaret Tocknell.
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Robin Lumb.
3 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good evening, sir.
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. Good evening.
6 My name is Robin Lumb, and I reside at 2164
7 Gilmore Street in Riverside.
8 Thirty-five years ago, Riverside and
9 Avondale were at a crossroads. Our residents
10 knew they could either allow blight and decay to
11 run their course or they could pull together and
12 reverse the neglect and revitalize these
13 historic neighborhoods. They chose the latter.
14 And, as they say, the rest is history.
15 In 1998, following a districtwide
16 referendum that was approved overwhelmingly by
17 the voters, the Jacksonville City Council
18 formally established the Riverside Avondale
19 Historic District, backing up its creation with
20 specific legislation that addressed every aspect
21 of how homes and buildings would be maintained,
22 repaired, improved, or demolished. It wasn't
23 easy and it wasn't cheap.
24 But the higher standards imposed on
25 property owners inside the historic district
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1 accelerated the preservation effort and boosted
2 property values along with it. The residents
3 and property owners inside Riverside and
4 Avondale, knowing they were obligated to
5 maintain a higher standard, were induced to
6 invest millions of dollars towards renovating
7 and rehabilitating their properties.
8 They had the assurance in doing so that the
9 laws would be applied equally and fairly to
10 every property owner. At the end of the day,
11 everybody was a winner: the property owners,
12 the city, the community at-large because the
13 rules were clearly spelled out and the law was
14 enforced, but nobody wins if the rules are
15 ignored.
16 When the voters approved historic district
17 status for Riverside and Avondale, they voted,
18 in effect, to encumber their property rights.
19 But in the bargain, they gained more valuable
20 property rights, specifically the right to
21 expect that their sacrifices would be shared
22 sacrifices and that their property would be more
23 valuable than it would have been otherwise
24 because everyone was subject to the same
25 requirements.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 We have a prominent and well-respected
2 member of the community who has made an
3 application for demolition. I am sympathetic,
4 but I remain unpersuaded, especially if the
5 argument is one of economic hardship.
6 If the economic hardship is that it's
7 costly to maintain a home in a good and
8 substantial state of repair, then every
9 homeowner inside the historic district faces the
10 same identical hardship. These are all older
11 homes. That's the point. Not one of them can
12 boast that they routinely follow modern building
13 standards.
14 Having created the historic district, I
15 believe it would be contrary to sound public
16 policy for the City Council to allow this
17 demolition to go forward. After all, the
18 linchpin of historic preservation is simply
19 this: that having established historic
20 preservation as a desirable goal, you stop
21 tearing stuff down.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
23 Pamela Telis.
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I pass.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Jack Shad.
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1 MS. GODWIN: He had to leave.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Not here.
3 And Jean Grimsley is our last.
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I waive.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, that's all of
6 our speakers in opposition.
7 Mr. Teal, could you speak on behalf of the
8 Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission?
9 And as a part of that, when we close, could you
10 explain to us our options of where we can take
11 it from here?
12 MR. TEAL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 Jason Teal with the General Counsel's
14 Office.
15 Mr. Lamb purchased this property in 1970.
16 He's owned it for -- going on 40 years now. And
17 as he stated at the Historic Preservation
18 Commission meeting, page 48 of the transcript,
19 he says, "I bought this house in 1970 to house
20 my then mother-in-law and then house her oldest
21 daughter, but both are now deceased. I did not
22 receive rent. It was a donation in kind.
23 "When they both went on, my desire would be
24 to demolish it and grass it and save it for my
25 grandchildren. Unbeknownst to me, I didn't know
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1 that I had to go through the historical society
2 to demolish it. I kept it up the best that I
3 could, but I don't want to be in the rental
4 business. I thought it was a liability and I'm
5 not into the rental business. I'm retired and
6 sometimes tired."
7 So he wants to tear it down so that he can
8 grass it and he can save an empty lot to someday
9 speculatively pass on to his grandchildren. He
10 doesn't want to rent it, he doesn't want to do
11 anything in the meantime other than that.
12 Now, Commissioner Schifanella pretty much
13 summed it up quite succinctly by stating, "I
14 really appreciate all the research that was done
15 in preparing the case for demolition, but it
16 does seem to support the fact that there really
17 is nothing intrinsically dangerous or wrong with
18 this structure, and the basis for the argument
19 for demolition is more a convenience to the
20 homeowner. And so I really sympathize with his
21 situation in wanting to maintain the property
22 for his family, but I don't think this is the
23 appropriate course to demolish the building."
24 So that's what he wants to do. It's a
25 convenience to him to demolish the building
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1 because, as he stated, he doesn't want to
2 maintain it, he doesn't want to rent it, he
3 doesn't want to take care of it anymore.
4 Basically he just wants it torn down and he
5 wants to sit on a vacant lot.
6 Demolition is the ultimate removal of
7 historic fabric and it should be considered as
8 the last resort. As was stated by the speakers,
9 this body has approved one demolition since the
10 historic district was formed. In 1999, it
11 approved demolition of a structure that was so
12 termite ridden that it was structurally
13 unsound. That's the only time that this body
14 has authorized the demolition of a structure.
15 Now, going to Mr. Harden's evidence, he
16 pointed out -- he handed out two letters to
17 you. One was by Mr. Burrows and the other by
18 Mr. Kelly. He succinctly went through
19 Mr. Burrows' letter, but he left out a few
20 things. So, if I could, I'd like to direct your
21 attention to that letter, which I'll note is
22 dated August 13, 2009. The John Burrows Company
23 is at the top.
24 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Chairman, may I -- well,
25 as I understand Jason's role, it's to explain to
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1 you what happened in the Historic Preservation
2 Commission.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Teal has got five
4 minutes to argue on behalf of the historic
5 commission.
6 MR. HARDEN: Thank you.
7 MR. TEAL: The letter states, first of all,
8 the third paragraph down -- here's the problems
9 that Mr. Burrows found. The electric service to
10 the home has been cut and the electric meter
11 removed. What it doesn't say is that Mr. Lamb
12 himself did that.
13 Additionally, the low distribution panel,
14 including all circuit breakers, have been
15 removed. Again, Mr. Lamb did that.
16 The next paragraph, the electric water
17 heater also located on the rear porch has been
18 removed, by Mr. Lamb.
19 The next paragraph, central heating and
20 cooling was once provided to the property, but
21 both the outside condenser and interior air
22 handler have been removed, by Mr. Lamb.
23 The next paragraph that Mr. Harden did
24 read -- what it says, however, is that the
25 property has a great deal of deferred
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1 maintenance issues present. He's owned the
2 building for 40 years. If there's deferred
3 maintenance issues, it's because Mr. Lamb
4 himself deferred maintenance.
5 The next page, the first paragraph, the
6 exterior cladding is -- now, let me point out.
7 This is where Mr. Harden started talking about
8 what was wrong with the building. The exterior
9 cladding is an unpainted wooden shake shingle.
10 Several shingles at two locations have been
11 removed. That's not structural; that's
12 cosmetic.
13 Next paragraph, exterior window openings
14 have all been covered with a combination of
15 aluminium storm window screen pits. Appearance
16 of the aluminium detracts from the otherwise
17 wooden exterior. Again, not structural,
18 cosmetic.
19 The next paragraph, the roof is 21 years
20 old. And while no leaks were detected -- no
21 leaks were noted. In other words, the roof is
22 sound. But he notes that the roof covering is
23 at the end of its economic life in his opinion.
24 Again, he's owned it since 1970. Of course it's
25 going to be at the end of its economic life.
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1 It's 21 years old. So welcome to home
2 ownership.
3 The next paragraph noted that the customary
4 collar beam running between every third set of
5 rafters were never installed. Okay. Again,
6 Mr. Lamb is the one that reroofed this
7 building. If this was a problem, why was it not
8 noted when he reroofed it originally 21 years
9 ago? And evidently it's been in that condition
10 for 21 years, so it can't be all that
11 structurally unsound in order to do that.
12 Finally, the point on all of this, again --
13 going to the next thing was Mr. Kelly's letter.
14 He talks about all of the roofing problems and
15 the structural problems and all of those other
16 problems, but what wasn't presented to you all,
17 and I think this is critical, is the cost
18 estimate. There is a September 15th, 2009
19 letter from Arthur S. Anderson & Son that tells
20 you how much it's going to cost. It breaks it
21 down.
22 The AC, 5- to $6,000. Electrical, 3- to
23 $4,000. Plumbing, 1- to 2,000. Roof, this
24 major problem, 5- to $7,000. As well as some
25 cosmetic enhancements, 1- to 3,000.
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1 If you take the highest estimate, $22,000.
2 If you take it at the lowest estimate, $15,000.
3 After 30 -- 40 years of ownership, he's being
4 expected to spend 15- to 22,000 to maintain a
5 house. That's what he's using as justification
6 to tear it down, that is not economic hardship.
7 So, in conclusion, the reasons he gives for
8 demolition is because he doesn't want to be a
9 landlord. He doesn't want to maintain it
10 anymore. He doesn't want to pay to reverse all
11 of the things that he himself did. And he
12 doesn't want to pay taxes. He wants to reduce
13 his tax burden. In these economic times, I
14 don't think this council should be using this as
15 a basis to reduce the amount of taxes that
16 people are paying.
17 The question, then, is -- the last question
18 is, why doesn't he sell it? If those are his
19 concerns, why doesn't he sell it? He wants to
20 keep it for his grandkids kids, put the money in
21 a trust, put it in a CD. Save that money for
22 his grandkids. This is not a good reason to
23 tear it down.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Teal, could you go
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1 over -- I believe we have three options -- so
2 the committee members can understand what our
3 options are.
4 MR. TEAL: Sure.
5 The options that are allowed for this body
6 would be to either uphold the appeal -- in other
7 words, it would overturn the denial of the
8 demolition, which will allow him to tear it
9 down. You can deny the appeal, which would
10 support the Historic Preservation Commission's
11 decision to deny the demolition.
12 You can modify -- basically you can amend
13 it. In other words, approve it with conditions,
14 which I'm not sure is an option in this case
15 because it's kind of all or nothing. Or you can
16 refer the matter back to the commission with
17 specific directions as to what other avenues
18 that you think that they should explore.
19 It seems like it's pretty clear on its
20 face. It's either approve the demolition or
21 don't approve the demolition. I think that's
22 the only two options, but technically you do
23 have the four.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
25 Anyone have questions for Mr. Teal?
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1 Mr. Redman.
2 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 Mr. Teal, the City has a department that
4 goes out and looks at houses to determine
5 whether or not they are structurally sound to
6 live in, to stand and be repaired. Does this
7 department -- have they gone out and looked at
8 this house? Have they been asked to? Or what
9 is your answer to that?
10 MR. TEAL: I believe you're referring to
11 our Property Safety Division. Actually, it's
12 Municipal Code Compliance now. They inspect
13 properties to determine structural soundness to
14 ascertain whether those buildings represent a
15 danger to the community.
16 My understanding, that department has not
17 looked at this building at all, either
18 because -- well, first of all, because they
19 haven't either been alerted to it as it being a
20 problem or they haven't otherwise been called in
21 to look at it.
22 The only City individual that has gone out
23 and looked at it is Joel McEachin from our
24 historic preservation office, and it's part of
25 his job routinely to go and -- he wrote the
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1 report on it. It's his job to go inspect these
2 types of properties, both in Springfield and
3 Riverside Avondale, to evaluate the soundness of
4 the structure itself.
5 And I believe he testified before the
6 Historic Preservation Commission that the
7 building itself, the structure itself was in
8 good and sound condition.
9 MR. REDMAN: I believe the only way I could
10 support destruction of the house, tearing it
11 down, would be that our department go out and
12 suggest that that would be the only solution.
13 Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
15 Mr. Davis.
16 MR. DAVIS: Yes, I have some questions
17 along the same line as Mr. Redman.
18 The cosmetic or system issues don't hold
19 water with me, and I -- what really is my
20 deciding factor on this is if -- several of
21 these paragraphs concern me in the Doyle Kelly
22 letter.
23 Is Mr. McEachin an engineer?
24 Mr. McEachin, are you an engineer?
25 MR. McEACHIN: No, I'm not an engineer.
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1 MR. DAVIS: Okay. I have real concern as
2 to why we have not had one of our engineers go
3 out and look at this piece of property prior to
4 this time frame. To me, that's ridiculous.
5 I do have someone who has put their license
6 on the line saying that this system -- the roof
7 system -- the last paragraph in the first page
8 of Mr. Kelly's letter saying that this is a --
9 that the walls are now bowing due to the dead
10 load of the roof. These members are not
11 anchored to the walls with capacity to resist
12 the required uplift produced by the winds.
13 As many of you know, we did have new wind
14 codes going into effect a couple of years ago,
15 and if they -- if someone went in and replaced
16 the systems, would they have to bring the wind
17 loads up to code?
18 MR. TEAL: Through the Chair to
19 Councilmember Davis, in looking at Mr. Kelly's
20 letter -- I had some calls in to Tom Goldsbury
21 ad Jim Shock on this, but he's -- basically he's
22 referring to the new construction portion of the
23 building code when he references these windows.
24 MR. DAVIS: Right.
25 MR. TEAL: There is a separate section that
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1 deals with existing structures. And there's
2 also some allowances for historic structures as
3 far as strict compliance of the building code.
4 There's no requirement -- there's no strict
5 requirement to bring a structure such as this up
6 to the current state of the building code unless
7 you are going to be doing a major systems
8 overhaul.
9 What they're proposing is a reroof, and
10 they're not -- there's been no demonstration
11 that there's a requirement to replace the entire
12 roofing structure.
13 MR. DAVIS: I'm just disappointed,
14 Mr. Chairman, that we've had a bunch of people
15 do a drive-by and look at this cosmetically what
16 could happen and how you could fix it and we
17 have not had our own, I guess, independent City
18 engineer go out there and get into the
19 nitty-gritty on this, and then they expect us to
20 make a decision.
21 Because my whole decision rests on the
22 structural integrity of the building. And I
23 don't know what to tell you about that,
24 Mr. Chairman, but that's where I land.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, that's certainly one
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1 of our options to think about.
2 But right now, any other questions for
3 Mr. Teal? And then I'm going to go back to
4 Mr. Harden. He has remaining time to rebut any
5 of the arguments.
6 Mr. Harden.
7 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: And considering we had
9 additional speakers, you have up to 30 minutes,
10 I guess.
11 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Inaudible.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Folks, we had an additional
13 eight speakers. I thought I was only going to
14 have 15 minutes on each side --
15 MR. HARDEN: If it makes you feel any
16 better, I'm not going to take 30 minutes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: So what I'm saying here is
18 you guys had about 30 minutes and we're trying
19 to divide it up evenly. I'm trying to say that
20 with a sense of humor, though.
21 I don't think Mr. Harden is going to speak
22 for 30 minutes.
23 MR. HARDEN: Yeah, I don't intend to.
24 Let me start with, I -- every time Mr. Wood
25 gets up here, he pokes me in the eye and makes
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1 my stomach hurt, but I -- he might be an expert
2 on historical matters. I'm an expert on
3 high-priced lawyers, so . . .
4 The other thing -- and I want to kind of --
5 we want you to follow the criteria. There's a
6 suggestion that we're trying to skirt the
7 criteria. If you'll note, my entire
8 presentation was asking you to follow those
9 criteria. That's what I want you to do.
10 The fact that 81 percent of the folks voted
11 to do this is not one of the criteria. That
12 particular -- this is a quote from Winston
13 Churchill I'm always reminded of when people
14 talk about the majority. It's the difference
15 between democracy and liberty. Democracy is two
16 wolves and a lamb voting on what they're going
17 to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-heeled lamb
18 contesting the vote.
19 We're entitled to come here and contest the
20 vote and ask you to follow the criteria, and
21 that's all we're asking you to do. We're not
22 asking you to skirt any of your responsibility.
23 The Historic Preservation Commission is not
24 indeed the expert as suggested. You are the
25 expert. This is a de novo hearing where you're
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1 the one to consider the evidence, not what
2 something might be, but what the evidence is in
3 front of you today and how that evidence goes to
4 the criteria.
5 Again, Ms. Ehas started that -- about the
6 vote. But, again, that's not one of the
7 criteria. What the median sales value is in
8 that area is not one of the criteria.
9 Again, she suggested and she's sticking
10 with her story that it's in good condition. I
11 would ask you to look at the photographs and the
12 report. I don't think that -- that's accurate.
13 Again, the vote in 1998 was 25 years after
14 Mr. Lamb -- I guess the well-heeled lamb fits
15 better here than most places. But, you know,
16 it's 25 years after he -- after he bought the
17 property.
18 Mr. Love went through the first three
19 criteria. His three explanations are totally at
20 odds with Mr. McEachin's report. He says it's
21 impossible to replace it with something
22 similar. Mr. McEachin's report says, no, it's
23 not impossible to replace it. So his --
24 Mr. Love's explanation is at odds with
25 Mr. McEachin's.
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1 Mr. Love's explanation is at odds with
2 Mr. McEachin on the fourth criteria. Mr. Love
3 said it is, in fact, the last one in the region
4 or area or whatever used. If you read
5 Mr. McEachin's report, he says no, it is not the
6 last one. It's a common use in the area.
7 So they're coming up and arguing the
8 report. But I ask you to look at the Planning
9 Department report, which on -- by my count,
10 seven of the criteria shows that the criteria
11 have been met.
12 The $22,000 does not go into -- does not
13 take into account the structural criteria. Now,
14 Jason went through the 22,000. Those are all
15 interior. In all due respect, you've got a
16 report from a structural engineer, and I don't
17 think anybody can say any better than Mr. Davis
18 said. This guy put his license on the line.
19 Let me read this. It's a simple statement.
20 "Trying to strengthen the existing framing
21 system to support updated loading would far
22 exceed the cost of complete replacement."
23 Now, if you think that Mr. Lamb has a house
24 worth $300,000 that he could sell and that he
25 wants to tear that $300,000 to the ground so he
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1 can have an empty lot and he -- that he's doing
2 that for no good reason, I think you should
3 think again. He's doing it because he's gotten
4 reports from engineers who have said to make
5 this house safe, to meet the wind loads, to make
6 it structurally sound, it's going to cost more
7 than building a new house. That is the evidence
8 you have before you today.
9 I don't know what somebody from
10 Mr. Goldsbury's office would say. That's not
11 who we have to go out to do it. We had a
12 structural engineer come out and look at it and
13 he rendered this opinion in August. So you have
14 September, October, November, December -- four
15 months. If somebody disagreed with it, they
16 could go out and look at it.
17 But the fact of the matter is, that $22,000
18 doesn't include the cost of the structural fix
19 on the property. So I would -- in all due
20 respect, Mr. Love's statements on the three
21 criteria he dealt with are opposite of what
22 Mr. McEachin says.
23 With regard to the criteria of ---- that
24 Mister -- Kevin, I'm sorry, I didn't get your
25 last name -- but talked about -- he talked about
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1 that there's -- there's just nothing in the
2 record indicating there's any chance of
3 collapse. That's the whole purpose of this
4 report is that we have wind load criteria. They
5 updated them -- as Mr. Davis indicated, recently
6 updated them for a reason because we get
7 windstorms in this area.
8 Those criteria are in effect. If they
9 weren't -- if they didn't have a valid reason,
10 the City wouldn't have put them into effect.
11 But the fact of the matter is there is, in fact,
12 a likelihood of collapse if you don't meet the
13 wind load requirements, and that's explained in
14 great detail in Mr. Kelly's report.
15 The feasible alternative that the gentleman
16 suggested to meet criteria number 7 is to do the
17 repairs. Those repairs -- and Jason said
18 there's nothing in the report about the cost.
19 I'll read it one more time. "Trying to
20 strengthen the existing framing system to
21 support updated loading would far exceed the
22 cost of complete replacement." So that's in
23 addition to the 22,000. That doesn't include it
24 in the $22,000 number.
25 Ms. Mansfield indicated -- and, again, her
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1 comments with regard to criteria 9 are at odds
2 with Mr. McEachin. Mr. McEachin says, well,
3 there's enough historic value in there, but
4 doesn't say how much.
5 The reason I went through -- and Jason was
6 correct, explaining the outside, those are
7 cosmetic. But that was explaining it's not the
8 same house that was built in 1920. It has cedar
9 shake shingles on the side. That's not the
10 original house. It has a different roof. The
11 windows are the same. That explanation wasn't
12 that it's not cosmetic. What it is is it
13 doesn't look like it looked in 1920, and that
14 was the purpose of that.
15 The final thing Ms. Mansfield said, it is
16 not an economic hardship to do the repairs.
17 The report that Mr. Kelly said is it cost
18 more to do just that one repair than it would
19 cost to build a new house. And I do believe, in
20 fact, that that is an economic hardship.
21 We're not asking you to invalidate the
22 ordinance. This ordinance allows for us to come
23 to the LUZ Committee, present evidence to you,
24 ask you to compare that evidence to the
25 criteria, and see if we meet the criteria.
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1 As indicated, it's difficult to do because
2 they're rarely granted, but you rarely have a
3 situation where the structural stability of the
4 property is compromised as explained in
5 Mr. Kelly's report. So I'm not asking you to
6 willy-nilly allow demolition permits. I'm
7 asking you to do it when you meet the criteria
8 and when the economics of the matter say that
9 it's more expensive to repair it than build a
10 new house. I believe that, in fact, is an
11 economic hardship.
12 Now, I tried to follow Carmen's math. What
13 she said is in 1970 Mr. Lamb took $9,500 and
14 bought a house. Now, if you had taken that
15 $9,500 in 1970 and put it in the stock market,
16 or you -- to just put it in a 4 percent bond,
17 you'd have a lot more money than the house is
18 worth now. So the time value of the money is
19 what you're dealing with on economic -- she says
20 that it's now valued at $300,000.
21 What person in their right mind, if they
22 had something worth $300,000, would hire
23 somebody to come up here and ask -- beg you to
24 let them tear it down. The reason we're doing
25 it is because that value is not there. The
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1 structural integrity of the property is such
2 that we don't have a $300,000 piece of --
3 structure there. It's a structure that would
4 cost more to put back in structural integrity
5 than it would be to build a new property on
6 there.
7 She suggests that the experience of
8 Mister -- she says what did we know about the
9 experience of Mr. Burrows and Mr. Kelly. Well,
10 their resumes are attached. But in all due
11 respect, if they had some slight on their
12 experience, they should come up here and tell
13 you. You're supposed to base your opinions and
14 determinations on the evidence before you, and
15 the evidence before you is set forth in their
16 resumes.
17 One of them is a certified engineer, the
18 other is a State-certified building contractor.
19 Those are difficult licenses to maintain, and I
20 would respectfully suggest that they do, in
21 fact, have experiences that you should
22 consider.
23 The other folks that spoke did not speak to
24 the criteria, and I would ask you to keep
25 focused on that criteria.
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1 I think the criteria show that there is an
2 economics hardship, that shows that there are --
3 it is -- that this is not the last structure in
4 the area, that there are difficulties that
5 would -- that would allow you to vote for the
6 demolition permit.
7 The intention, obviously, is to put a lot
8 there and then ultimately build a house at that
9 location rather than spend more than the cost of
10 a new house now to bring back the structure
11 on -- on the thing.
12 I'm -- when I sit down, I know that Michael
13 is going to talk, and so I'm going to have to
14 address -- I know that he has some built-in
15 thoughts about the district, and I know that he
16 wants -- as a former president of RAP wants to
17 go through those matters, but I would
18 respectfully request that in considering his
19 comments that you consider what the criteria
20 are, what the evidence is before you. That's
21 the issue, is the evidence as it meets those
22 criteria, and I would ask you to stay focused on
23 that issue.
24 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
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1 Mr. Davis, did you have a question, or are
2 you still on from last time?
3 MR. DAVIS: I'm going to wait until I hear
4 from Councilman Corrigan.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's hear from
6 Mr. Corrigan first and then we'll go around.
7 MR. CORRIGAN: I think he had a question
8 for Mr. Harden.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, okay. You had a
10 question for Mr. Harden.
11 I'm sorry. Go ahead, Mr. Joost.
12 MR. JOOST: Mr. Harden, I was just curious,
13 through the Chair, what is the actual cost of
14 demolition?
15 MR. HARDEN: The actual cost of demolition,
16 you know, I don't know, but it's -- it's
17 something less than probably ten grand.
18 MR. DAVIS: Eight thousand.
19 MR. HARDEN: Pardon me?
20 MR. JOOST: Eight thousand.
21 MR. HARDEN: Yeah.
22 MR. JOOST: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a question for
24 Mr. Harden.
25 Through all this, has your client offered
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1 any plan to rebuild anything on the property or
2 is this only to leave it vacant?
3 MR. HARDEN: Well, you know, what happened
4 was -- I wasn't at the Historic Preservation
5 Commission. Mr. Lamb was there by himself with
6 his contractor.
7 I've talked to him since then. We're
8 perfectly willing to agree to, you know, the
9 design criteria. I say perfectly. Do
10 graciously what we have to do anyway about what
11 you're going to rebuild in the area. That's
12 subject to criteria and certainly we'll comply
13 with those. If that is a condition of the
14 demolition permit, we would understand that.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
16 Mr. Corrigan.
17 MR. CORRIGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 MR. HARDEN: Michael, is this a question or
19 can I sit down?
20 MR. CORRIGAN: No. You can sit down.
21 Thank you.
22 Before I start, let me thank the committee
23 for their patience in hearing this. Obviously,
24 there's passion on all sides. And that's not
25 surprising, knowing the area that we all know.
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1 I'll start by saying that days like today
2 are days I hate being an elected official. My
3 problem today is that I know every single person
4 that's involved in this. I know the applicant.
5 I mean, all these people I consider friends, the
6 applicant, the agent. Everybody that came and
7 spoke in opposition to it, I know them all
8 personally, so it stinks to have this job
9 today. I hate it. I just wish I could end my
10 term, you know, a year and a half early and I
11 wouldn't have to go through this.
12 I'll tell you, I had breakfast -- as I
13 mentioned earlier in ex-parte declaration, I had
14 breakfast with Mr. and Ms. Lamb at the Fox, a
15 restaurant I frequently go to, and -- as you
16 probably all know -- and discussed this. They
17 really were at a loss for what was going on and
18 what they needed to do and were gaining
19 understanding and have learned a lot in the
20 process, and I appreciate their willingness to
21 try to understand that process.
22 Since I've been on the council, I've
23 probably voted on about 5,000 ordinances and
24 resolutions since I've been here, and I haven't
25 hung any of those on my wall. And Mr. Harden
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1 touched on this, there is one resolution -- one
2 ordinance hanging on my wall and it's 2007-1029,
3 which was the creation of Riverside Avondale
4 local historic district which hangs there
5 because I was chairman when the district was
6 established.
7 So, obviously, I have a passion for this,
8 but I'm not going to ask you to vote based on
9 passion today. I want you to vote on the
10 criteria. As Mr. Harden said, I think that's
11 the most important thing to do.
12 You know, it's -- there's been a lot of
13 discussion about the cost of renovation and
14 everything else. And I live in a historic
15 home. I bought it, and I had to do everything
16 that these engineers are saying they have to do
17 as far as upgrading it. It was vacant for
18 25 years and had to go in and do the mechanical
19 and electrical and everything that's been -- the
20 siding, everything that's been listed here
21 today. So I'm intimately knowledgeable of the
22 challenges that Mr. Lamb saw, but that's not a
23 reason to either grant or deny this application.
24 You're asked today to look at a property
25 that is in need of repair. It's interesting
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1 that it's not too dissimilar from an occurrence
2 that Mr. Davis and I had on that Builders Care
3 project. We went out to a community center that
4 we've allocated money to and Mr. Davis and I
5 spent the Saturday on top of a building tearing
6 off the shingles and replacing them. And thanks
7 to the generosity of Builders Care, they turned
8 around and added on to the back of that
9 community center and they took an older
10 building -- not an historic building, but an
11 older building and renovated it at more expense
12 than it would have cost to tear it down and
13 start from scratch and add on to the back of it.
14 I mention that because I don't think we
15 went in and did structural engineers and wind
16 tests and everything else on the roof that we
17 repaired. It was there and it met code when it
18 was built and it stayed there.
19 The new part we added on had to meet code,
20 and I think that's important. In this
21 conversation there's been a lot of talk about --
22 about this letter from Mr. Kelly, about the
23 replacement, of strengthening the roof to meet
24 standards. That is if you're going to try to
25 meet the wind standards of the day.
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1 And if he was going to -- if he was going
2 to tear the roof off and start over, it would
3 have to meet wind standards. If he was going to
4 add on to the residence, any addition he put on
5 there would have to meet these current wind
6 standards.
7 I do question on that particular letter
8 that's been referenced a number of times from
9 Mr. Kelly, the top paragraph on page 2, the way
10 I read it and read it before getting here today
11 is that that is in relation to the roof, not the
12 entire building. They start talking about the
13 walls after that paragraph.
14 So what they're saying is that the cost to
15 structurally sound that roof to today's wind
16 standards would be more than the cost of
17 replacing the entire roof. That is a true
18 statement because you can now buy engineered
19 roof trusses that are significantly less
20 expensive than it would cost to replace a roof.
21 So that statement is correct, but I don't
22 believe they're talking about the entire
23 structure.
24 And I haven't talked to Mr. Kelly about it,
25 but I'm pretty sure he was referencing just the
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1 roof in that particular paragraph because the
2 walls talked about it later.
3 But most of what you need to consider today
4 can be on the one sheet of paper that Mr. Harden
5 is giving you that had the highlighted -- yellow
6 highlighted paragraph in it, and that's -- I
7 want to stop for just a second and talk about
8 that.
9 That's probably been the biggest
10 disappointment to me in this entire process.
11 The applicant here was strictly doing something
12 that he wanted to do with his personal
13 property. And the fact that it got personal,
14 the fact it was picked up in the media, not so
15 much in the Riverside Avondale community news
16 but in another media in -- I think negative
17 things were said about the owner that I consider
18 negative, and I don't appreciate that. This is
19 never supposed to be about a person. It's
20 supposed to be about an historic piece of
21 property, and I apologize to them.
22 I also apologize that they weren't given
23 the full instructions of what they needed to do
24 on the front side. It's been documented today
25 that there was a garage in the back that was
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1 torn down some -- during the past year or so.
2 At that point, the City department should
3 have told that owner, hey, you can't tear this
4 down. You have to get a COA to tear this down,
5 a certificate of appropriateness to tear it
6 down. And if you want to do anything else, you
7 have to get a COA to tear down the house too
8 because I'm sure when the company -- the
9 documentation says Realco came out, they were
10 given -- they were asked to give a price and
11 tear down the garage and tear down the house.
12 They have -- I think have a responsibility
13 to tell the owner, the homeowner, hey, you're in
14 a historic district. You're going to have to
15 get a COA. So I'm a little disappointed in the
16 demolition company and I'm real disappointed if
17 a City department didn't let the owner know
18 that.
19 But we'll go back to the criteria which are
20 on that single page I just pointed out to you.
21 There's ten criteria.
22 It's interesting, you listen to the agent
23 for the applicant talk, and demolition meets all
24 those requirements. You listen to the
25 preservation organization, it doesn't meet any
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1 of the requirements. Well, folks, you can't
2 listen to either one of them, to be honest with
3 you. They're both passionate for what they're
4 working for. What you really have to go to is
5 the professionals. And the professionals that
6 we count -- we counted on earlier in the
7 Racetrac bill we did, that's our Planning
8 Department staff. They are the professionals
9 that we rely on to get the evidence that we use
10 to make this decision.
11 I've gone back, I've looked at the report.
12 It should be in your appeal packet that you have
13 today. And if you review them, Mr. Harden is
14 correct, seven out of ten things are there, but
15 it's seven out of ten of the criteria says the
16 building should not be torn down, and that's
17 really -- I come tonight to talk on that
18 aspect.
19 If you look at the report and read in
20 criteria 1, it does not meet that criteria. And
21 criteria 3, it does not meet the criteria. And
22 criteria 4, it doesn't meet it. Those are the
23 three standards according to the professionals
24 at our Planning Department that this does not
25 meet.
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1 So that means that seven out of ten of the
2 Planning Department -- the professionals
3 recommend that you deny the demolition, that it
4 not be granted. So I think you have to do it
5 based on the evidence.
6 There is a lot of passion here. I probably
7 will lose a friend tonight because of my
8 position I have to take here, but I was elected
9 to represent the people. I intimately know the
10 ordinance that was passed by this council back
11 in 2007. I mean 1997. Excuse me. I said 2007
12 earlier. 1997. And we have to support that.
13 We made the rules. It wasn't done in the
14 shade of darkness. It was done -- I had
15 probably 10 to 12 community meetings during that
16 approval of this Jacksonville -- of the
17 Riverside Avondale local historic designation.
18 We had compromises that were done. The process
19 we used to get the designation that you're
20 considering today was done very similar to the
21 way the consolidated government of Jacksonville
22 was established.
23 And at the point of approving that,
24 Riverside Avondale Preservation gave up their
25 ability to control what happened and went to the
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1 professionals, our professionals in the City
2 staff, the Historic Preservation Commission, the
3 Planning Commission, and the City Council.
4 So we're all supposed to look at the
5 criteria. Seven out of ten of these criteria
6 say the house should be saved and should not be
7 torn down, so I don't really have an option on
8 this decision.
9 So what I'm asking the committee to do is
10 to recommend the denial of the appeal and allow
11 the structure to remain.
12 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
14 Mr. Redman.
15 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 The third option, could that option be that
17 we do nothing without the -- Mr. Goldsbury's
18 department making their decision whether or not
19 this building is structurally sound enough to do
20 something with? Could that be our third
21 option? Could we defer this until we get that
22 option or would it weigh strictly on the City's
23 decision?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Teal or Mr. Reingold.
25 MR. REINGOLD: To the committee, I mean, I
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1 guess one of your other options would be to
2 defer the item and request more information to
3 that.
4 I'm just trying to look through the code
5 criteria and try to figure out which one of the
6 criteria that that issue really goes to, and I
7 guess it goes to the difficulty or impossibly of
8 saving the building or structure from collapse,
9 number 6.
10 But, again, I mean, if you feel you don't
11 have all the information you need, you can
12 certainly request a deferral.
13 MR. REDMAN: I just feel like that we need
14 the City, Mr. Goldsbury's department, to give us
15 their opinion on whether or not this building is
16 structurally sound enough to survive.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: I think Mr. Corrigan wanted
18 to speak to that.
19 Go ahead, sir.
20 MR. CORRIGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 Through the chairman to Councilman Redman,
22 good point. I do caution the committee on
23 relying on that. Two reasons. One is -- I
24 don't know if Mr. Teal or Mr. McEachin --
25 Historic buildings don't have to meet
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1 current building code. In other words, if we
2 send out our building inspectors, they're going
3 to look at current building code. Historic
4 buildings don't have to meet current building
5 code, so they're going to come back and say it
6 doesn't meet current building code.
7 The caution I give you is if they -- if
8 that does come back and this committee says it
9 doesn't didn't meet code, you can tear it down.
10 Then anybody that wants to tear down anything is
11 going to go in with a sledgehammer and knock
12 down enough stuff to make it not meet current
13 code, and then they're going to be torn down.
14 So if you want to eliminate every -- if you
15 want to always destroy a historic building when
16 it's desired, then you just knock out some beams
17 and make it not meet code, and then it's going
18 to be torn down for sure. So I don't think
19 deferring for that --
20 If the property is sold, there will be an
21 inspection and they'll tell them that it doesn't
22 meet code, and then he needs to do the structure
23 changes. I don't think we need to use City
24 resources to help a property owner determine if
25 this building meets engineering standards.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Good point, Mr. Corrigan.
2 Mr. Davis.
3 MR. DAVIS: I guess my whole issue,
4 Councilman Corrigan, is the soundness of the
5 building, and I know that -- before, that there
6 was a decision made to allow the razing of the
7 building because it was not sound.
8 With this letter, it is positioned that
9 this building is unsound. That's the way I read
10 the letter. What I would like to be able to
11 make a better decision or a better informed
12 decision would be to have our engineers go out
13 and say, hey, it's unsound or it is a sound
14 building.
15 Just because someone has lived in it does
16 not mean it is sound. You and I have seen that
17 several times on Builders Care projects. I
18 guess what I would say is -- and this may be a
19 question to the attorney. If we defer this for
20 a report from our -- one of our structural
21 engineers, would we have to go through this
22 process again?
23 And I don't know if we can -- or if we can
24 just put it on the table, get the report, and
25 then make the decision without having to go
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1 through this again.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Good question.
3 Do we have to go back to the public
4 hearings again?
5 MR. REINGOLD: The one thing I would
6 recommend if we did that deferral, get the
7 additional information, would certainly --
8 you've heard a lot of testimony about all the
9 other issues. Maybe just limit testimony
10 relevant to the specific issue that is being
11 requested today such that either RAP, Mr. Teal,
12 or Mr. Harden would have the ability to respond
13 to whatever Mr. Goldsbury's or Mr. Schock's
14 comments are and to that issue and not reiterate
15 what was hashed out today.
16 MR. DAVIS: I would feel more comfortable
17 making a decision after I've heard that because
18 reading this the way it does, talking about the
19 loading and, you know, anchor bolts -- I mean,
20 there's so many things that go into a roof in
21 holding the roof down when high winds come
22 instead of having it pop off. It's much more
23 than frames at the top of the structure. You've
24 got to -- there's -- and then we've got the
25 question of does that even apply. I just need
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1 more information. And, I'm sorry, I didn't get
2 it tonight.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Davis.
4 I want to say something and I've got
5 Mr. Joost on queue.
6 For me, one of the issues is what's going
7 to happen to the property and in the near
8 future. And I understand from Mr. Harden that
9 there is or may be some sort of plan for
10 building on the property in the near term.
11 I would like to know that the property
12 isn't just going to be torn down and sit as a
13 vacant lot. But I don't have any solid plan,
14 someone coming to me saying that the plan for
15 this property is within the next two years to
16 have a home that meets all the criteria of the
17 Historic Preservation Commission. I don't have
18 that. I would like to.
19 Mr. Joost.
20 MR. JOOST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 I'm going to go along much in the line of
22 Councilman Davis and Redman. My only question
23 would be -- and I think Councilman Davis may
24 have touched on it somewhat. Obviously -- or I
25 guess through Mr. Teal my question would be, are
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1 all historical houses in compliance right now
2 with the current 119-mile-an-hour standard?
3 MR. TEAL: That would be a resounding no.
4 MR. JOOST: Okay. So my next question
5 would be as to when we're determining, quote,
6 soundness as to what criteria we're measuring
7 against. Is it -- you know, obviously it's not
8 going to be the 119-mile-an-hour standard. So
9 what marching orders or instructions do we give
10 our engineer to go out to look at the house?
11 Because obviously he said, well, in
12 consideration to the 119-mile-an-hour structure,
13 no, it would fail. So what -- you know, what is
14 that criteria?
15 MR. TEAL: Through the Chair to Councilman
16 Joost, what I would recommend would be to give
17 our structural engineer, whether that be Leslie
18 Davidson or somebody else that we have on staff,
19 a copy of Mr. Kelly's letter. And send her out
20 there and say, is this structure structurally
21 sound?
22 She's the one that can determine whether or
23 not the 119-mile-an-hour wind load is going to
24 be required, you know, or whether or not there's
25 bowing going on as he's alleging in his letter.
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1 That would be my recommendation. Not give
2 her any other direction than to say, is it
3 structurally sound based upon the information
4 contained in this letter and a personal
5 inspection of the property?
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold, do you want to
7 say something?
8 MR. REINGOLD: Yeah. I'm just kind of
9 looking at the code here. Under section 307.205
10 of the city -- of our ordinance code, it talks
11 about the options for our council. And one, as
12 Mr. Teal talked about earlier, you can confirm,
13 you can reverse, you can modify.
14 And the fourth one -- and the question just
15 goes to sort of who do you want to make this
16 decision -- is whether you want to refer the
17 matter back to the commission with specific
18 instructions for further action.
19 And so the thought is, do you guys sort of
20 want to make that decision or did you want to
21 defer it -- refer that decision back to JHPC to
22 say, look, you didn't consider the structural
23 issues that we're contemplating here and we
24 recommend you do so in making a final decision.
25 I don't care either way. I'm just throwing that
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1 out at the committee.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Well -- but Mr. McEachin did
3 go up there and check out the structural
4 soundness of it. And he's the inspector on
5 behalf of the Historic Commission, right? Is
6 that true?
7 MR. TEAL: He does perform the role of
8 going out there and makes a visual inspection.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: But he's not an engineer.
10 MR. TEAL: He states he's not an engineer,
11 correct.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
13 MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chair.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir, Mr. Davis.
15 MR. DAVIS: It's coming back to us anyway.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, it is.
17 MR. DAVIS: Might as well just take -- cut
18 out the middleman and let's just -- that's what
19 we were all hired to do is make decisions, so
20 let's just do it.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
22 MR. REDMAN: Thank you.
23 My main concern when you talk about sagging
24 of beams and when we send somebody out there to
25 look at the structure to see if it fits the
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1 safety of most of the homes in the district,
2 whether you could add some other beams --
3 Mr. Davis would know much more about this than
4 me, whether something could be added to make it
5 safe or -- rather than redo a whole new roof or
6 something that would be basically starting all
7 over again.
8 So if we had, you know, orders to the City
9 engineer to go out and meet the standards of the
10 other older homes in the neighborhood -- which
11 I'm sure that they know this, what it would be,
12 then we could feel -- I think we could feel that
13 it would be safe.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Corrigan, did you want
15 to jump in?
16 MR. CORRIGAN: Yes, thank you,
17 Mr. Chairman.
18 Through the Chair to the committee, I'm
19 fine getting the answers. My question is
20 really -- I still think -- my concern is I think
21 that primarily Mr. Goldsbury's group is going to
22 go up and look at today's standard. Is it
23 better -- proper or better for us to have our
24 Property Safety Division be the one to lead
25 that? I don't know if they have engineers
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1 there.
2 But they're the ones that are charged with
3 the city to make sure that the properties are
4 safe. They may go and look and say, this is
5 imminent -- I mean, I had one on Post Street and
6 they called me up on a Friday afternoon and
7 said, We just saw a house that looks like it's
8 going to fall down. We can't leave it over the
9 weekend. We're tearing it down today, and tore
10 it down because it was an unsafe structure.
11 So I think if we defer it, that probably
12 having our Property Safety people go out and
13 consult with our engineers and the Building
14 Department would be probably a better avenue to
15 go because they're going to look at safety
16 versus meeting current wind standards.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Teal, is that what's
18 meant by "structurally sound"? Is that the
19 standard that our Property Safety folks would
20 use, "structurally sound"?
21 MR. TEAL: It is.
22 And just to Councilmember Corrigan, they
23 use the same people we're talking about. And
24 they'll go out and they'll make a
25 determination -- they'll do an eyeball. And to
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1 them, they're experienced enough to recognize
2 it. But before they make that call, they'll
3 call in a structural engineer in order to put
4 the license on the line, if you will, in order
5 to make sure that it really is in that
6 condition.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the majority of the
8 committee seems to feels like it would be best
9 for us to defer this and get some more
10 information, so I'm going to do that.
11 I'm going to defer this, and we want to,
12 through our Planning Department, I guess, ask
13 that we would have somebody from Property Safety
14 inspect and then we can bring it back to this
15 committee.
16 Mr. Reingold.
17 MR. REINGOLD: I would just recommend, if
18 you close the public hearing -- which I think
19 may have happened -- that you just reopen it to
20 make sure that we don't have to readvertise.
21 And then we'll keep the issue specifically to
22 just the issue that we're discussing here, which
23 is the structural soundness of the building.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
25 I'll close the public hearing --
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1 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Chairman --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: -- continue the public
3 hearing.
4 MR. HARDEN: -- can you ask him one more
5 quick -- just so we've got the rules of
6 engagement. This is a quasi-judicial function.
7 You're supposed to do the -- and I know that
8 some people have been contacting council
9 members. I think it would be fair to say that
10 there shouldn't be any contact with members of
11 the quasi-judicial body pending that -- the next
12 hearing.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold, do you want to
14 speak to that?
15 MR. REINGOLD: Are you saying that there
16 can't be any ex-parte communications between now
17 and the next meeting?
18 MR. HARDEN: Yes.
19 MR. REINGOLD: Because they could cure that
20 through just making sure that they declare those
21 at the next meeting.
22 MR. HARDEN: Except you're trying to limit
23 it to a single issue, and you don't know what
24 everybody is going to talk about.
25 You know, I obviously have a difference of
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1 opinion on what the ex-parte requirements are
2 here, but that -- just from here forward, we're
3 in the middle of a trial, if you will, and
4 talking to the judge during that time I think
5 would be inappropriate.
6 But I just ask -- I was going to ask you to
7 ask Mr. Reingold that question, so . . .
8 MR. REINGOLD: I mean, if you have
9 ex-parte, you declare it. And if it covers
10 beyond the subject, then it kind of opens the
11 window or opens the door to additional
12 discussion on those other issues.
13 So I would recommend that you limit them to
14 the issue at hand.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So, Mr. Reingold, you
16 would recommend that committee members would not
17 speak to any other issue other than the
18 structural soundness of this?
19 MR. REINGOLD: That would be my
20 recommendation because if you speak to other
21 issues, which could happen, then you open the
22 door to the public hearing discussion going to
23 the other issues that you may have discussed in
24 the ex-parte communication.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. So we have
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1 deferred that item, and -- I'm sorry. We
2 continued the public hearing, and we will take
3 it up -- we should probably give at least two
4 cycles to take it back up, wouldn't you say,
5 Mr. Reingold? Would that give time enough --
6 Planning?
7 MR. REINGOLD: I'll just say Mr. Teal just
8 said that he could probably get it done in
9 48 hours. We could either have it for
10 January 20th or -- then the meeting after that I
11 believe is February 2nd, but it's -- you know,
12 you're the chair.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis.
14 MR. DAVIS: I am not going to be here on
15 the 20th. I'd love to be here for this one, but
16 it's up to you, Mr. Chairman.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. If you want to be
18 here, we'll push it off to the next one.
19 All right. That would be February 2nd.
20 All right. We will continue it to
21 February 2nd.
22 Mr. Joost, you had a comment?
23 MR. JOOST: I would also like to have our
24 engineer -- to me, it's not just a yes or no, is
25 it sound or unsound? If he comes back and says
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1 it's unsound, give me options. Because it's
2 unsound, but it only requires, like, you know,
3 one beam being installed in the roof. I would
4 like to know that, you know. And so I would
5 like -- when the engineer goes out there, it's
6 just not a yes or no, either it's sound or if
7 it's unsound, what are the options to make it
8 sound.
9 MR. REDMAN: (Inaudible.)
10 MR. JOOST: And they can come back with an
11 explanation. Yes, we need two cross beams or
12 whatever. So, you know, if it's a minor expense
13 to make it sound, well, that's a whole new ball
14 game.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Time snuck up on
17 me.
18 Mr. Corrigan, you want to say something,
19 but Diane needs a break.
20 MR. CORRIGAN: I just wanted to -- I
21 guess -- I think the public is somewhat confused
22 about the ex-parte aspect of it. If I could
23 clarify it to them a little bit real quick.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
25 MR. CORRIGAN: Basically, what we're
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1 agreeing to do is to not have ex-parte
2 communications with other parties, especially
3 about anything -- and really not even about the
4 structural.
5 I guess my question -- what I think the
6 opposition is going to have is, are we going to
7 allow outside independent structural engineers
8 to present evidence next time, or are we
9 strictly going to hear what the City departments
10 are going to give us?
11 Because if we're going to -- if the
12 applicant is going to get outside -- additional
13 outside engineering evidence to present, then
14 the opposition may have --
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I would imagine that
16 they would bring back someone to rebut any
17 evidence.
18 MR. CORRIGAN: Okay.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: But that's for us --
20 MR. DAVIS: (Inaudible.)
21 MR. CORRIGAN: Okay. I just wanted to make
22 sure we understood where we're going, that
23 everybody is on the same page.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: I would think they would.
25 MR. CORRIGAN: And, Mr. Chairman, I
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1 appreciate you taking this up early for me.
2 Thank you very much.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you.
4 With that, we're going to -- that item is
5 deferred. We're going to take five minutes to
6 give our court reporter time to rest her
7 fingers.
8 (Brief recess.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's see if we can get
10 everybody back in our places. We've got four of
11 us up here. Mr. Redman will come back and join
12 us in a little bit.
13 Okay. We have gone through a grand total
14 of three items. One of them ended up getting
15 deferred.
16 Let's go back to page 2. Everybody ready?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Items 1 and 2
19 are deferred.
20 Item 3, 2009-91. We will open the public
21 hearing.
22 No speakers.
23 We will continue the public hearing to
24 February 2nd and take no further action.
25 Item 4, 2009-350, we will open the public
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1 hearing.
2 Seeing no speakers, we will continue that
3 to February 2nd and take no further action.
4 -402 is deferred.
5 2009-429, open the public hearing.
6 No speakers.
7 We'll continue that to 1/20, take no
8 further action.
9 Items 7 and 8 are deferred.
10 Item 9, 2009-655, open the public hearing.
11 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue to
12 February 2nd, as well as 2009-656.
13 No speakers, we will -- I'm sorry. That's
14 another one.
15 So open the public hearing.
16 Any speakers?
17 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: No speakers.
19 Close the public hearing.
20 MR. DAVIS: Move the sub.
21 MR. JOOST: Second.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
23 sub.
24 All in favor of the sub, please signify by
25 saying aye.
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: The sub passes.
3 MR. DAVIS: Move to rerefer to LUZ.
4 DR. GAFFNEY: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second to refer
6 to LUZ.
7 Please open the ballot.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
12 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
15 the vote.
16 (Committee ballot closed.)
17 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nay.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
19 rereferred back to us.
20 2009-657, we'll open the public hearing.
21 No speakers.
22 We will continue it to February 2nd.
23 (Mr. Redman enters the proceedings.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Item number 12, 2009-658,
25 we'll open the public hearing.
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1 No speakers.
2 We'll close the public hearing.
3 We have a sub.
4 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
5 MR. DAVIS: Second.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
7 sub.
8 All in favor of the sub, please signify by
9 saying aye.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: The sub passes.
12 MR. DAVIS: Move to rerefer.
13 MR. JOOST: Second.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and a second
15 to rerefer back to LUZ.
16 Please open the ballot.
17 (Committee ballot opened.)
18 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
21 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
25 the vote.
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1 (Committee ballot closed.)
2 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
4 rereferred back to LUZ.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: 2009-663, we'll open the
6 public hearing.
7 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that one
8 to January 20th, take no further action.
9 2009-664, open the public hearing.
10 No speakers.
11 We'll continue that one to January 20th, no
12 further action.
13 All right. 2009-667 we already did, -668
14 we already did.
15 2009-751, we'll open the public hearing.
16 Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that to
17 2/2, take no further action.
18 Hey, something we get to take some action
19 on.
20 2009-857. Open the public hearing.
21 And we have a Mr. Andrew -- is that Sodl?
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll just do a blanket
24 apology for anybody's name that I butchered.
25 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: That's fine.
2 Andrew Sodl with Akerman Senterfitt. We're
3 representing the applicant.
4 I'm just available for any -- answer any
5 questions or any comments from the --
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any questions
7 for Mr. Sodl?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone need to -- no, it's
10 not an ex-parte.
11 All right. Thank you, sir.
12 Seeing no other speakers, we'll close that
13 public hearing.
14 I need a motion.
15 MR. DAVIS: Move the bill.
16 MR. JOOST: Second.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
18 bill.
19 Please open the ballot.
20 (Committee ballot opened.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
24 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
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1 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
3 vote.
4 (Committee ballot closed.)
5 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
7 approved 2009-857.
8 2009-858, open the public hearing.
9 No speakers.
10 We'll close the public hearing.
11 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
12 MR. DAVIS: Second.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on
14 2009-858.
15 Please open the ballot.
16 (Committee ballot opened.)
17 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
20 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
24 vote.
25 (Committee ballot closed.)
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1 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
3 approved 2009-858.
4 2009-864. We'll open the public hearing.
5 No speakers.
6 We'll continue that to January 20th, take
7 no further action.
8 All right. 2009-872. Let's open the
9 public hearing.
10 And Mr. Dylan Reingold has a very short
11 presentation about this change in our heavy
12 industrial category.
13 MR. REINGOLD: Thank you.
14 To the Chair, essentially the bill just
15 removes the access restriction from heavy
16 industrial properties to local roads in the
17 zoning code, and it just allows that the heavy
18 industrial portion of the zoning code is
19 consistent with the heavy industrial portion of
20 our comp plan.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any questions for
22 Mr. Reingold?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: No other speakers.
25 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
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1 MR. DAVIS: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Hold on. I have a question
3 for Mr. Reingold.
4 Does that mean that today or before we pass
5 this bill, heavy industrial properties would not
6 allow access to local roads?
7 MR. REINGOLD: Our zoning code right now
8 did not allow access from heavy industrial
9 properties to local roads.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Davis.
11 MR. DAVIS: Real quickly, does anybody have
12 the number of how many heavy industrial sites
13 would not comply, or is it a percentage?
14 Ballpark?
15 MR. KELLY: There's no percentage, I
16 believe, number specific, but it was just
17 basically because of the text changes to the
18 comp plan and the future land use element that
19 allowed local access, and then we had the
20 inconsistency as Dylan described. That was
21 still left over in the zoning code. So this is
22 really a correction to bring it into consistency
23 with the comp plan.
24 MR. DAVIS: All right.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right.
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1 MR. DAVIS: Move the bill.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Need to close the public
3 hearing.
4 MR. JOOST: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and a second
6 on the bill.
7 Please open the ballot.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
12 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
16 vote.
17 (Committee ballot closed.)
18 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
20 approved 2009-872.
21 Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
22 -888, open the public hearing.
23 And we have Mr. Atwill. He's here for
24 questions only.
25 Does anyone have questions for Mr. Atwill?
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we will close
3 the public hearing.
4 MR. DAVIS: Move the bill.
5 MR. JOOST: Second.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
7 bill.
8 Please open the ballot.
9 (Committee ballot opened.)
10 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
13 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
17 vote.
18 (Committee ballot closed.)
19 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
21 approved 2009-888.
22 Thank you, Mr. Atwill.
23 2009-889, open the public hearing.
24 Mr. Atwill again for questions only.
25 Seeing none, we will close the public
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1 hearing.
2 MR. DAVIS: Move the bill.
3 MR. JOOST: Second.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
5 bill.
6 Please open the ballot.
7 (Committee ballot opened.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
11 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
15 vote.
16 (Committee ballot closed.)
17 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
19 approved -889.
20 All right. We've done -910. The other
21 three are second and rereferred. Unless I'm
22 missing something. Am I missing something?
23 MR. JOOST: -890.
24 MR. REINGOLD: Page 10, sir.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, I did miss -- okay.
Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Sorry.
2 -890, open the public hearing. Mr. Atwill
3 for questions only.
4 Seeing no questions, we'll close the public
5 hearing.
6 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
7 MR. DAVIS: Second.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Move -890.
9 Please open the ballot.
10 (Committee ballot opened.)
11 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
14 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
15 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
18 vote.
19 (Committee ballot closed.)
20 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
22 approved -890.
23 -892 is deferred.
24 -907, we will open the public hearing.
25 Seeing no speakers, we'll close the public
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1 hearing.
2 We have an amendment.
3 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and -- is there a
5 second?
6 MR. DAVIS: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second.
8 Can we hear the amendment, Mr. Crofts or
9 Mr. Kelly?
10 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair and to the
11 committee, essentially what the amendment does
12 is it kind of cross-references Part 6 and
13 Part 12 together.
14 What it's going to do in Part 12 is
15 essentially say that all the vehicle use area
16 landscaping and all the perimeter landscaping
17 shall comply with the requirements set forth in
18 the parking lot landscape matrix set forth in
19 656.607(j).
20 The goal from the Planning Department
21 raised this issue was that, if it didn't want
22 someone to run through the landscaping ordinance
23 and Part 12, only to later find out that there
24 was a parking matrix landscape in Part 6 that
25 they missed.
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1 Additionally, it just strikes the
2 percentage in 656.1214(a) and just says, look,
3 the amount is going to be set by the parking
4 matrix. And there's a similar reference in
5 656.1215(a)(1).
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. That's the
7 amendment, or is that the overall bill?
8 MR. REINGOLD: Sorry. I thought there was
9 a request for an explanation of the amendment.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. Right. I'm -- could
11 we have an overall explanation of the bill for
12 me?
13 MR. KELLY: Certainly. Thank you.
14 To the Chair, to the committee, this
15 ordinance, 2009-907 --
16 MR. DAVIS: Point of clarification.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Go ahead.
18 MR. DAVIS: We're just on the amendment
19 right now.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, yeah. Go ahead
21 and --
22 MR. DAVIS: I guess -- just so I -- I kind
23 of want to know the bill myself. I haven't
24 heard anything about it, and I'd like to
25 understand it.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I just haven't heard that
2 this was coming through, so we need to
3 understand it a little better.
4 Let's go ahead and vote on the amendment.
5 We have a motion and a second on the
6 amendment.
7 All in favor of the amendment signify by
8 saying aye.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Aye.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment passes.
11 Now let's --
12 MR. JOOST: Move the bill as amended.
13 MR. DAVIS: Second.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: A motion and second on the
15 bill as amended.
16 Mr. Kelly.
17 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
18 Ordinance 2009-907, this is essentially
19 cleanup legislation, a parking rewrite, if you
20 will, that addresses some of the issues that
21 came up as a result of the rewrite of the
22 parking legislation back in 2007 during the
23 zoning subcommittee. Councilmember Jenkins was
24 the subcommittee chair for that portion of the
25 rewrite of the code, and kind of what came to
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1 light over the years -- a few years since the
2 adoption of that was the incorporation of
3 parking maximums in our zoning code and in our
4 parking requirements.
5 We have worked jointly with the Chamber of
6 Commerce to develop these criteria and have
7 created flexibility into the code that belies
8 basically a range of parking for both office and
9 retail uses from a three per thousand up to a
10 six per thousand, which is a matter of right,
11 which precludes or would prevent somebody
12 essentially from having to go to a formal public
13 hearing to increase their parking requirements.
14 So there's standards built in in this range
15 of uses. The range of uses is actually based
16 upon the ITE parking demand generation rates.
17 So there's numerous studies to back up the range
18 for those uses. And so you have various office
19 uses that might not demand as much parking.
20 For one instance, you might have a call
21 center and they might want six spaces per
22 thousand, or you might have a professional
23 office, all the same square feet and they only
24 need three per thousand.
25 This accommodates all of those users
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1 without the need for having to do any formal
2 public hearing.
3 Additionally, it clarifies that there is an
4 AD process to increase the maximum parking
5 requirements and additionally provides a less
6 restrictive requirement on existing parking lots
7 when they add additional parking to bring them
8 into conformance with the current parking and
9 landscaping codes.
10 Traditionally, or as it is now in the code,
11 if somebody was to add five parking spaces to an
12 existing 100-space lot, the addition of those
13 five spaces automatically triggers the entire
14 parking lot to be brought into compliance with
15 parking and landscaping. That threshold is now
16 up to 35 percent. So it's based on a 35 percent
17 threshold as opposed to just any number of
18 spaces.
19 This matrix is kind of the formulation
20 between the committees and the department. What
21 we're trying to do in this is to promote some
22 infill and redevelopment on these restricted
23 sites. These commercial properties that are
24 older generally don't conform to the code, to
25 allow them some relaxation in terms of the
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1 number of spaces and the landscaping that they
2 can provide on the site because typically most
3 of them don't conform to the current landscape
4 code. And to do so in most case becomes
5 impractical for the use of the site, if they
6 were to completely comply with that.
7 So this provides flexibility in the design,
8 and it's proportionate to the size of the
9 parking space. So if you -- if you develop at a
10 certain parking rate, as you increase the number
11 of parking spaces, total spaces for your parking
12 lot, proportionately then you get more
13 landscaping and greenspace in that parking lot
14 instead of having a sea of parking.
15 So you've got wider perimeter landscaping
16 for the larger, newer types of development and
17 redevelopment of these larger, older centers.
18 And so that's the intent, is to promote the
19 redevelopment for small commercial infill
20 sites.
21 I believe Wyman is here and Jessica as
22 well, if they can speak to the Chamber's input
23 into this process as well.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, it's all coming back
25 to me now. And now I know why Ms. Deal is
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1 here.
2 Mr. Davis, did you still have any
3 questions?
4 MR. DAVIS: So would this increase the
5 landscape requirements or pond requirements? It
6 looks like, to me, it is reducing the
7 requirements. In what case would this increase
8 requirements?
9 MR. KELLY: The -- traditionally, right now
10 with office and retail -- office is right now,
11 at code, four per thousand. So if you exceed
12 that threshold of four per thousand, there's a
13 requirement to obtain an administrative
14 deviation to do that.
15 We have provided a vehicle basically to
16 allow an office developer to develop a five per
17 thousand or at six per thousand by right. With
18 that comes those additional spaces. Thereby the
19 department typically in our AD recommendations
20 would support these increases in parking.
21 Usually there was no opposition to the parking
22 increases for these commercial and office
23 developments, but our recommendations were,
24 okay, if you're going to go put in much more
25 parking than what's required per code, then we
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1 want additional greenspace and landscaping to
2 break up that sea of parking to provide
3 basically more landscaping and make it
4 proportionate to the size of the parking field.
5 So now they're allowed to go five spaces
6 per thousand or six spaces per thousand by
7 right, whereas before they would have had to do
8 an administrative deviation. And this provides
9 some additional increases in perimeter
10 landscaping for those larger parking fields.
11 MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to
12 hold it up tonight. What I'll do is I'll just
13 take a look at this between now and Tuesday
14 night, if that would be okay with you to say, if
15 I have an issue with some of these requirements,
16 I'll just bring it back to the full council, if
17 that's okay.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine.
19 MR. DAVIS: All right.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Then we have a
23 motion and a second.
24 Please open the ballot.
25 (Committee ballot opened.)
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
4 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
6 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot, record the
8 vote.
9 (Committee ballot closed.)
10 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
12 approved 2009-907.
13 All right. 2009-909, we'll open the public
14 hearing.
15 And we have Randy Gallup for questions
16 only.
17 Seeing no questions, we'll close the public
18 hearing.
19 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion and a --
21 MR. DAVIS: Second.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: -- second on the bill.
23 Please open the ballot.
24 (Committee ballot opened.)
25 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
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1 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. DAVIS: (Votes yea.)
3 DR. GAFFNEY: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Close the ballot and record
7 the vote.
8 (Committee ballot closed.)
9 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
11 approved 2009-909.
12 And now I believe we have reached the end
13 of our agenda.
14 Everybody concur?
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes, sir.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We are
17 adjourned.
18 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
19 7:50 p.m.)
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Diane M.
Tropia,
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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3 STATE OF
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
5
6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 11th day of January, 2010.
11
12
13
14 Diane M. Tropia
15
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Diane M.
Tropia,