1                    CITY OF JACKSONVILLE


       2                    LAND USE AND ZONING


       3                         COMMITTEE






       6             Proceedings held on Tuesday, January 5,


       7   2010, commencing at 5:10 p.m., City Hall, Council


       8   Chambers, 1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before


       9   Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State


      10   of Florida at Large.




      12   PRESENT:


      13        RAY HOLT, Chair.

                REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.

      14        DANIEL DAVIS, Committee Member.

                JOHNNY GAFFNEY, Committee Member.

      15        STEPHEN JOOST, Committee Member.

                DON REDMAN, Committee Member.



      17   ALSO PRESENT:


      18        MICHAEL CORRIGAN, City Council Member.

                JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.

      19        SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.

                FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.

      20        KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.

                JOEL McEACHIN, Planning and Development Dept.

      21        JASON TEAL, Office of General Counsel.

                DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.

      22        MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.

                JESSICA STEPHENS, Legislative Assistant.


                                 -  -  -








           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1                   P R O C E E D I N G S


       2   January 5, 2009                         5:10 p.m.


       3                         -  -  -


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Happy New Year to


       5        everybody.


       6             Well, this evening we have a couple of


       7        issues that I think are going to take quite a


       8        bit of discussion, so I'd like to move those up


       9        to the beginning.


      10             Let's start off going around the horn and


      11        introduce ourselves for those of us -- it eases


      12        our way into it.


      13             Mr. Crofts, start us off.


      14             MR. CROFTS:  Good evening.


      15             My name is John Crofts, representing the


      16        Planning and Development Department.


      17             MR. KELLY:  Sean Kelly, Planning and


      18        Development.


      19             MR. AVERY:  Ken Avery, Planning and


      20        Development.


      21             MR. HUXFORD:  Folks Huxford, Planning and


      22        Development.


      23             MR. REINGOLD:  Dylan Reingold with the


      24        Office of General Counsel.


      25             And just want to wish everybody a Happy





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        New Year.


       2             MR. DAVIS:  Wow.


       3             Daniel Davis.


       4             MR. BROWN:  Reginald Brown, District 10.


       5             DR. GAFFNEY:  Councilman Gaffney,


       6        District 7.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ray Holt, District 11.


       8             MR. JOOST:  Councilman Joost, Group 3


       9        at-large.


      10             MR. REDMAN:  Don Redman, District 4.


      11             MR. CORRIGAN:  Visiting Michael Corrigan,


      12        District 14.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Since we have a


      14        visiting council member here, we will move his


      15        item up -- actually, I think I'd like to take


      16        the two Racetrac bills first.  Let's --


      17             Members, let's go to page 7.  Let's handle


      18        items 15 and 16 first, get those out of the way,


      19        and then we'll go to our appeal, which is on


      20        page 11, and then we'll go through the rest of


      21        the agenda.


      22             All right.  So starting with 2009-667, we


      23        will open the public hearing.


      24             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)


      25             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Chairman, before we start,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        are you going to do the PUD and the land use map


       2        together, or are you going to do them


       3        separately?


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yeah, let's open the public


       5        hearing on both.


       6             Do you have other cards for people that


       7        just put for -668?


       8             MS. STEPHENS:  (Inaudible.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  So we'll open the


      10        public hearing for -667 and -668.


      11             MR. REDMAN:  Do I need to declare ex-parte


      12        now?


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yeah, go ahead.


      14             Anybody who needs to declare ex-parte, go


      15        ahead and do it now before we have our speakers.


      16             Mr. Redman.


      17             MR. REDMAN:  Yes.  I need to declare


      18        ex-parte.  I met with Paul Harden on several


      19        instances, and Sean Kelly, with the community --


      20        several community meetings.  I met with David


      21        Peck and others in the community.


      22             January the -- today I met with Paul


      23        Harden -- or if I met with Paul Harden and the


      24        neighborhood.  So I had several meetings,


      25        discussed this, had some good conversation, good





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        collaboration.  Mr. Harden come up with -- tried


       2        to do a good job of making all the concessions


       3        that he could to keep the neighborhood happy.


       4        The neighborhood did not want this here, but I


       5        think they all come together pretty good.


       6             Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Redman.


       8             Mr. Harden, I don't have a card from you,


       9        but you're welcome to go ahead and --


      10             MR. HARDEN:  I'm sorry.  I'll fill one out


      11        when I'm --


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- fill one out afterwards.


      13             MR. HARDEN:  Thank you.


      14             Paul Harden, 501 Riverside Avenue.


      15             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      16             This is a land use map and amendment --


      17             I'm sorry.  Mr. Reingold wants to speak.


      18             MR. REINGOLD:  I didn't know -- and I


      19        apologize, Mr. Harden.


      20             Did you want the staff to kind of introduce


      21        their position on it and the conditions, or did


      22        you just want to start with the speakers?


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Let's go ahead and have


      24        Mr. Crofts set up.


      25             Are we all up to date on all these





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        changes?


       2             MR. HARDEN:  You want me to sit back down


       3        while they do that?


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  And then Mr. Harden can


       5        comment.


       6             MR. HARDEN:  Okay.


       7             MR. CROFTS:  Mr. Chairman, members of the


       8        committee, we're hearing two bills regarding


       9        this Racetrac proposal.  I will speak to


      10        ordinance 2009-667, which is the land use


      11        portion of it, and I will defer to Mr. Kelly to


      12        speak in regard to the PUD.  He has worked


      13        extensively with this -- this PUD through the


      14        various meetings and is most familiar with it.


      15             What we have before us this evening is a


      16        land use amendment from LDR to CGC and, again, a


      17        rezoning from commercial general, CCG-1, and


      18        residential low density, RLD-60, to planned unit


      19        development.


      20             This proposal and this property fronts


      21        along Atlantic Boulevard and encompasses an


      22        existing Racetrac station as well as three


      23        residential lots that we incorporated into the


      24        proposal.


      25             The Planning and Development Department, as





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        it relates to the land use amendment, has


       2        determined that this particular proposal is


       3        consistent with several policies, particularly


       4        policies 1.18, 1.10, 1.16, as well as objective


       5        3.2, 322, policy 324, and policy 327.


       6             The proposed amendment, we feel, is an


       7        expansion, sustains infill, and promotes the use


       8        of a planned unit development.  It avoids and


       9        prohibits scattered and low density development


      10        in a sprawl type of situation.


      11             We feel that the proposed application,


      12        along with the PUD rezoning, and the conditions


      13        within the PUD provide the buffering and the


      14        landscaping adjacent to the surrounding


      15        residential areas as in keeping and consistent


      16        with the comprehensive plan.


      17             And for those reasons, we recommend


      18        approval of the land use amendment.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Kelly.


      20             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      21             To the Chair, to the committee, PUD


      22        rezoning 2009-668 is Racetrac, Atlantic


      23        Boulevard.


      24             We have met -- the department -- with the


      25        neighborhood representatives and Mr. Harden.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        There was a list of conditions from the Oak Park


       2        community that were brought to our attention


       3        yesterday of which have been incorporated into a


       4        revised written description dated today,


       5        January 5, '09 [sic].


       6             The department has reviewed the written


       7        description and I can go through specifically


       8        the changes to the written description which


       9        have been incorporated.


      10             Additionally -- because of those changes to


      11        the written description, there are changes to


      12        the conditions from the Planning Commission


      13        memorandum where there was conflicts.  Those


      14        conditions were either struck and replaced and


      15        there's been some revisions in there.


      16             And, additionally, this afternoon, after


      17        the agenda meeting, there were two additional


      18        conditions that were discussed regarding


      19        improvements on Atlantic Boulevard.


      20             Specifically, I'll go to the neighborhood


      21        list of recommendations.  Specifically, there


      22        were 14 proposals on that -- on that list.


      23        Essentially, the department did not object to


      24        those conditions and those requests, neither did


      25        the applicant for the most part.  There were





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        some concerns.  I'll read them into the list.


       2        And these will be, again, incorporated into the


       3        written description, but these represent the


       4        changes to the written description.


       5             Provisions for stop signs on the station,


       6        exits at both Shadowood and Valencia will be


       7        installed.  A creeping fig will be planted to


       8        grow up against the brick wall.  Additionally,


       9        the brick wall will wrap around Valencia toward


      10        Atlantic as shown on the site plan.  It will be


      11        built before construction activity begins.


      12             This is a brick/stucco wall provision for


      13        that.  Oh, I'm sorry.  It's a brick wall only.


      14        There's a brick or stucco column that will be


      15        incorporated as an entry feature to the Oak Park


      16        community setback around the rear property line


      17        of the service station fronting Valencia that


      18        will be an entry feature for the Oak Park


      19        community.


      20             Additionally, due to the hours of


      21        operation, the applicant has agreed to


      22        incorporate a JSO stop station, which will be


      23        incorporated into the floor plan and design of


      24        the store.


      25             There were issues that we had with





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        potential U-turns and improvements on Atlantic


       2        Boulevard that would not be able to be really


       3        controlled.  Through the PUD, they are subject


       4        to FDOT review and approval, so we have


       5        incorporated those as additional conditions that


       6        I will read on the record.


       7             Additionally, irrigation will be provided


       8        along the wall.  The planting of the trees or


       9        shrubs that are there, if they die will have to


      10        be replaced at any point.  Additionally, some


      11        low voltage landscape lighting will be provided


      12        along the back of the wall adjacent to the


      13        residential.


      14             Then there were some issues with some of


      15        the uses that were struck within the written


      16        description itself, specifically a self-service


      17        laundry facility was struck from that list.


      18             Additionally, there will be no outside


      19        telephones, and a bus stop is going to be


      20        relocated from the corner of Valencia and


      21        Atlantic.  And that the requirement to ensure


      22        that the 50-foot buffer as provided on the site


      23        plan, to ensure that nothing can be built on


      24        that buffer and that it cannot be used for any


      25        storage.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             These changes were from a list that was


       2        brought to the meeting last night and these have


       3        been incorporated in the revised written


       4        description dated today, January 5th.


       5             So, with that, the conditions for approval


       6        from the department and the Planning Commission


       7        are condition 1, "The development shall be


       8        subject to the original legal description dated


       9        March 11, 2009."


      10             Condition 2, "The developer shall be


      11        subject to the revised written description dated


      12        January 5th, 2010."


      13             Condition 3, "The development shall be


      14        subject to the revised site plan dated


      15        November 23rd, 2009."


      16             Condition 4, "Required transportation


      17        improvements shall be made in accordance with


      18        the Development Services Division memorandum


      19        dated October 27th, 2009, or as otherwise


      20        approved by the Planning and Development


      21        Department."


      22             Condition 5, "The developer shall submit a


      23        lighting site plan, including fixture types and


      24        footcandle illumination, for the review and


      25        approval of the Planning and Development





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Department at the time of PUD verification of


       2        substantial compliance.


       3             "All pole lighting shall be limited to


       4        15 feet in height and be consistent with the


       5        design guideline 1.7.7 and D1.12, and including


       6        all figures D1.12(a), D1.12(b), and D1.12(c) of


       7        the Jacksonville Design Guidelines and Best


       8        Practices Handbook, other than the two dumpster


       9        and underground tank locations which may be


      10        25 feet tall.


      11             "Furthermore, the site planning shall be


      12        consistent with D.1.2 and D1.11.


      13             "Furthermore, the gas station canopy shall


      14        be consistent with guidelines D1.21, D1.22,


      15        D1.23, and D1.27."


      16             From that condition number 5, D1.19 has


      17        been struck.  That dealt with the limitation on


      18        the canopy height.  And the guidelines are


      19        recommending it at 15 feet.  My understanding,


      20        in order for the trucks to maneuver onto the


      21        site, that they need at least 18 feet and


      22        6 inches, and so the department has struck that


      23        requirement for the canopy height.


      24             Condition 7 has been reworded, specifically


      25        this was done with General Counsel and myself





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        this afternoon.  I believe both the neighborhood


       2        and the applicant is agreeable to this


       3        condition:  "The applicant shall provide a brick


       4        stucco wall eight feet tall with a creeping fig


       5        vine installed along the wall located behind the


       6        service station and along the building facing


       7        Valencia Drive consistent with guideline 1.5.20


       8        and figure 1.5.20(a) of the Jacksonville Design


       9        Guidelines and Best Practices Handbook."


      10             Those specify the planning areas on the


      11        other side of the wall adjacent to the


      12        residential.


      13             Additionally, condition 8 -- and


      14        condition 7, sorry -- the screen wall shall be


      15        constructed prior to construction of the


      16        development, and screening of the dumpster


      17        enclosure shall be consistent with guideline


      18        1.6.4 of the Jacksonville Design Guidelines and


      19        Best Practices Handbook.


      20             Condition 8 is as approved by the Planning


      21        Commission as well as condition 8 was, "At the


      22        time of verification of substantial compliance,


      23        the applicant shall submit building elevations


      24        which are similar to those proposed in the


      25        application as Exhibit L and subject to review





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        and approval of the Planning and Development."


       2             Condition 9, "The existing pole sign on the


       3        site shall be removed and only one monument


       4        style sign shall be permitted not to exceed


       5        200 square feet in area and 20 feet in height."


       6             Condition 10, "Outdoor speakers shall be


       7        prohibited except as otherwise required by the


       8        fire code."


       9             Now, there were two additional conditions


      10        discussed after the agenda meeting this


      11        afternoon.  These would be conditions 11 and 12.


      12             Condition 11 would read, "If approved by


      13        FDOT, a westbound left turn and median break


      14        shall be provided to the apartment complex


      15        entrance east of the subject property as part of


      16        the roadway improvements to Atlantic


      17        Boulevard."


      18             And condition 12 would read, "If approved


      19        by FDOT, a westbound exiting median refuge lane


      20        shall be provided as part of the roadway


      21        improvements to Atlantic Boulevard."


      22             Pending those 12 conditions, the department


      23        is recommending approval.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Kelly.  Sorry


      25        I forgot to go to you first.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Mr. Harden, do you want to --


       2             Mr. Reingold, did you want to jump in


       3        there?


       4             MR. REINGOLD:  I just would have liked to


       5        have heard just a repeat of condition


       6        number 11.  It's just the first time I've heard


       7        it before.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


       9             MR. KELLY:  It reads, "If approved by FDOT,


      10        a westbound left turn only and median break


      11        shall be provided to the apartment complex


      12        entrance east of the subject property as part of


      13        the roadway improvements to Atlantic


      14        Boulevard."


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Got it?


      16             MR. REINGOLD:  (Nods head.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Mr. Harden, are


      18        you okay with those 12 conditions?


      19             MR. HARDEN:  Yes, sir.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Go ahead, sir.


      21             MR. HARDEN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      22             Paul Harden, 501 Riverside Avenue.


      23             This is a land use amendment and PUD to


      24        facilitate the redevelopment of an existing


      25        Racetrac station.  The station has been located





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        for many decades, is in the need of updating.


       2             It's important to note that the existing


       3        facility has no limitations on access to side


       4        streets, no limitation on hours of operation,


       5        and it's currently built in a conventional CCG-1


       6        zoning category.


       7             The site plan -- the new site plan limits


       8        the commercial use to the existing established


       9        CG depth as shown to the parcel to the east.


      10        You have a map there.  So we don't go any deeper


      11        than already CGC is to the east.


      12             The PUD provides and has incorporated


      13        numerous protections.  Mr. Kelly went through


      14        them, but their best practices and screening,


      15        lighting, signages and a greatly up- -- greater


      16        enhanced landscaping.


      17             In the numerous meetings with the


      18        community, three main issues were raised.  One


      19        were issues of design.  We have provided to you


      20        a rendering of the building.  You see it.  It's


      21        an all-brick building, state-of-the-art


      22        facility.


      23             Second, landscaping and buffer issues were


      24        raised.  You have a landscape plan that I have


      25        provided to you that is part of the PUD.  It





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        provides much greater buffering and landscape


       2        than the zoning code and is presently -- and as


       3        is presently on the commercial site.


       4             The final main issue raised early on was


       5        access to Valencia.  Currently, my client has


       6        unlimited access to Valencia off the site.  It's


       7        not constructed, but we own the CG parcel


       8        adjoining it.  The neighbors asked that we


       9        perform a traffic study, which we did.


      10             That study resulted in numerous traffic


      11        calming and construction activities.  One was to


      12        allow no right-out access from the site onto


      13        Valencia, construct three dedicated lanes on


      14        Valencia.


      15             Right now, Valencia is a 12-foot-wide road


      16        that really two cars can't go on.  We're


      17        providing additional width for the road on the


      18        Racetrac site in constructing three lanes for


      19        access left and right coming out, and then an


      20        access coming in.


      21             While we have no obligation to make these


      22        improvements, they are changes that were part of


      23        the traffic study we agreed to do.


      24             One final point on the traffic, our main


      25        access is going to be off Shadowood at a





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        controlled access at that location.


       2             After all of these changes, the Planning


       3        Commission reported out a recommendation of


       4        approval.


       5             We since met with the neighbors on two


       6        additional occasions as late as last night.


       7        They provided us a list of 14 additional


       8        conditions, all of which have been incorporated


       9        into the written description that Mr. Kelly has


      10        been through.


      11             Councilman Redman was at the meeting at


      12        that time, and I asked the neighbors, "Are there


      13        any more conditions you want?"  And they said,


      14        "No.  These are the conditions that we want."


      15             This site is an infill site.  It won't


      16        require any activity for further sprawl as


      17        Mr. Crofts indicated.  It's a perfect chance for


      18        an upgrade.  It's a perfect chance to go from a


      19        CCG-1 to a PUD with multiple conditions.  We


      20        tried to address every objection raised and we


      21        believe we've done so.


      22             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      24             Any questions for Mr. Harden?


      25             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  If not, we'll go to our next


       2        speaker.


       3             Mr. Peck, David Peck, followed by Tom


       4        Monell followed by Sharon Redfearn, I believe.


       5             I apologize if I butchered anybody's name.


       6             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       7             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.  My name is David


       8        Peck.  I live at 5153 Martha Ann Drive.


       9             We have met with all concerned and are


      10        pretty much in agreement, except for we


      11        appreciate Councilman Redman's input and Paul


      12        Harden's working with the DOT to try to resolve


      13        the issues that we just discussed, so we -- we


      14        appreciate all that's been done and we accept up


      15        to a point without -- before we get to DOT and


      16        appreciate the effort and working to resolve


      17        these issues.


      18             Thank you.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      20             Hold on for just a second, sir.  Mr. Redman


      21        has a question for you.


      22             MR. REDMAN:  Mr. Peck?


      23             MR. PECK:  Sir.


      24             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Peck, for being


      25        here.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And Mr. Peck has been basically the leader


       2        for the neighborhood and has been the leader in


       3        every meeting that we had for the neighborhood


       4        and done a very good job and communicated with


       5        them and looked after their interests and is a


       6        very hard bargainer, so I appreciate him.


       7             And I know that -- I just want to make a


       8        statement that I have made a commitment myself


       9        to work with and work towards --


      10             MR. PECK:  Yes, sir.


      11             MR. REDMAN:  -- the issues with the DOT


      12        that we need and we promise that we will try to


      13        get.  So just want you to know and the community


      14        to know that I will push for that as hard as I


      15        can.


      16             Thank you.


      17             MR. PECK:  Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      19             Mr. Monell, followed by Sharon Redfearn.


      20             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      21             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.


      22             My name is Tom Monell.  I live at 5135


      23        Martha Ann Drive, Jacksonville, Florida.


      24             I just wanted to say we've had a lot of


      25        hard work with Don and Paul and everybody





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        concerned here with this issue, and I think


       2        we're pretty close to getting everything


       3        resolved.  We've still got some traffic,


       4        unresolved traffic issues, I think, and I -- Don


       5        has assured us that -- and Paul, that they'll


       6        work with DOT and try to get -- we've got a


       7        dangerous intersection there.  And with the


       8        additional traffic, it's just going to make it


       9        worse, and just going to have to impress on DOT


      10        somehow to get these changes made.


      11             That's about it.


      12             Thank you.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      14             (Audience member approaches the podium.).


      15             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      16             I'm Sharon Redfearn.


      17             I appreciate the opportunity to talk with


      18        you all.


      19             I had written something out that got


      20        e-mailed.  Hopefully, you have a copy, and I'd


      21        like the chance just to read it real quickly.


      22             I live and own a home at 1529 Glengarry


      23        Road.  And I moved here when I was quite young


      24        and bought this home, and I really liked


      25        Jacksonville.  It was a great family community,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        I thought.  It offered a lot of family-sponsored


       2        activities, and I enjoyed raising my daughter


       3        here.


       4             However, living off of Atlantic Boulevard


       5        is truly very trying.  It's six lanes of traffic


       6        and the speed limit, although it's 35, I can


       7        tell you that it's not enforced.  I never see


       8        anyone being pulled over, given a ticket,


       9        stopped, and so on.


      10             I live directly across the street.  I have


      11        spoken to no one in regards to this issue.  No


      12        one has come to me.  I've seen no signs posted


      13        in regards to this rezoning.  I happen to hear


      14        about it at Publix, of all places, by the woman


      15        who was standing in front of me.


      16             So I can tell you that I'm not -- I'm in


      17        strong opposition to this.  I realize now -- I


      18        work in the health care field, and I thought it


      19        was pretty complicated.  But I've decided that


      20        this, trying to sort out who do I speak to and


      21        the channels that I need to go through through


      22        City Council, is very, very complicated.


      23             That being said, I realize I'm way behind


      24        the eight ball sitting here tonight in regards


      25        to what has already been discussed and clearly





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        what is in the process of being decided.


       2             I do have a lot of concerns because I live


       3        directly across the street.  I mean, we have a


       4        lot of traffic noise, riffraff.  My home has


       5        been broken into twice, you know, since I've


       6        been living there.  And it is a hard place to


       7        live.


       8             I feel like this is really creating a very


       9        undesirable environment for us to continue to


      10        live.  It's very close to where I work.  I work


      11        at Wolfson's Children's Hospital.  So it has


      12        been -- it has been, until this point in time, a


      13        great neighborhood with good people who live


      14        there.


      15             Thank you.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      17             Could you hold on just a moment?


      18        Mr. Redman has a question for you.


      19             MS. REDFEARN:  Yes.


      20             MR. REDMAN:  Ms. Redfearn, right?


      21             MS. REDFEARN:  Yes.


      22             MR. REDMAN:  I did receive an e-mail or


      23        call.  I didn't have a chance to respond to it.


      24        I know you live in -- this borders two


      25        districts.  Mr. Bishop is on the other side of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the street.


       2             MS. REDFEARN:  Right.  And I had spoke to


       3        Suzanne Warren.  So no one told me this until I


       4        returned from Christmas and they put up the


       5        fence around Raceway and they were in the


       6        process of doing some demolition.  And I called


       7        Suzanne Warren on Monday, when everyone had


       8        returned to office, and she then put me in


       9        contact with Mr. Kelly.  I think she gave me his


      10        phone number.


      11             And so I then called and left you a message


      12        and then sent e-mails.  So, unfortunately, I


      13        didn't know -- you know, I thought I had to deal


      14        with my City Councilman, who is Mr. Bishop, yes.


      15             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  I'm sorry we dropped


      16        the ball in not getting with the other side of


      17        the street.  I know there should have been


      18        notices sent out to whatever the distance is.


      19             MS. REDFEARN:  And there's nothing posted.


      20        There's nothing posted.


      21             MR. REDMAN:  There was a sign posted.


      22             MS. REDFEARN:  I run every day.  I run, and


      23        I can tell you there are no -- I and some of my


      24        friends were looking specifically for these


      25        posted signs, and I see none posted.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.


       2             MS. REDFEARN:  I can tell you that's not


       3        the case.  And, you know, I feel like there's a


       4        certain obligation because this is an


       5        established neighborhood.  There has to be an


       6        obligation from the City of Jacksonville to


       7        somehow protect us from this.


       8             I want the same thing all of you want.  I


       9        want a safe, clean, attractive place to live.


      10        And I feel like -- and I already have behind me


      11        an office complex, the fence is beginning to


      12        deteriorate.  They have a huge light and it


      13        has -- I don't think what -- I, again, have no


      14        idea what it's supposed to be, but there is a


      15        light.  It's very high that shines into the back


      16        of our lawn.  The garbage collectors come, you


      17        know, the big -- at 4:00 a.m.  When I tried to


      18        discuss this with them -- fortunately, there is


      19        a system through the City of Jacksonville where


      20        I can call and complain about the noise, but it


      21        happens on a routine basis.  So, you know --


      22             MR. REDMAN:  Well, I think, you know, that


      23        this is going to be a better view.  The lighting


      24        will be more of a direct lighting.


      25             MS. REDFEARN:  Well, I understand that it's





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        going to be a huge -- I mean, this is going to


       2        be huge.  When I look out my front window, I'm


       3        going to see nothing but this.


       4             MR. REDMAN:  You live on the other side of


       5        Atlantic Boulevard?


       6             MS. REDFEARN:  I do.  It's almost directly


       7        across from Racetrac, yes.


       8             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.


       9             MS. REDFEARN:  Oh, yeah, it's going to


      10        be -- this is going to be a big impact on our


      11        neighborhood.


      12             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  That's about the side


      13        of the road that goes into Episcopal?


      14             MS. REDFEARN:  It's close to.  It's a


      15        little -- yes, it's kind of across from


      16        Valencia, just a little bit across from


      17        Valencia.


      18             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.


      19             MS. REDFEARN:  It's right -- you know,


      20        there's -- I want to say it's Live Oak and then


      21        Glengarry and then there's an office complex and


      22        then Empire Point.


      23             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  Those houses are set


      24        back a ways off of Atlantic, though, right?


      25             MR. REDFEARN:  Oh, no, sir.  I'm three lots





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        from Atlantic Boulevard.  Oh, no.  I hear the


       2        bus that stops on the corner.  I get to hear


       3        whatever it does.


       4             MR. REDMAN:  Three lots from Atlantic


       5        Boulevard?


       6             MS. REDFEARN:  Three lots, uh-huh.


       7             MR. REDMAN:  And so you don't have a


       8        driveway coming out to Atlantic Boulevard?


       9             MS. REDFEARN:  No.  My driveway is on


      10        Glengarry Road.


      11             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.


      12             MS. REDFEARN:  And so it's my -- so it's a


      13        security -- you know, they took all the houses


      14        that had been residential.  And if it was vacant


      15        for a certain period of time, it became a


      16        business.  So now I have a DSI Security, there's


      17        an empty lot, and then my house.


      18             MR. REDMAN:  I'm sorry we didn't


      19        communicate with you.


      20             MS. REDFEARN:  Yeah, my neighbors had no


      21        idea about this either.


      22             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you for being here.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      24             All right.  Seeing no further speakers,


      25        we'll --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Chairman, I supplied these


       2        (indicating) as part of our earlier


       3        presentation.  This was originally set for a


       4        hearing October 6th.  It's been deferred for six


       5        cycles.  Here are the pictures of the posted


       6        signs that are still up there.  I'll be happy to


       7        pass them around.  There have been public


       8        hearings.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Do you want to go ahead and


      10        put them in, put those into the record?


      11             MS. REDFEARN:  No, they're not.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing no further speakers,


      13        we'll close the public hearing.


      14             Do we have a motion?


      15             MR. JOOST:  (Inaudible.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  We're on -667.


      17             MR. BROWN:  Move the bill.


      18             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


      20        2009-667.


      21             Mr. Joost.


      22             MR. JOOST:  I guess this would be through


      23        the chair to Mr. Kelly or even Mr. Harden or


      24        Mr. Redman.


      25             I was just curious if you're going to make





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Valencia, it looks like, off of Atlantic


       2        Boulevard a one way out where you can either


       3        turn, I guess, left or right.  You're making the


       4        two turn lanes there.  Why on Atlantic Boulevard


       5        would you have a westbound turn lane if you're


       6        not even going to be able to turn into


       7        Valencia?


       8             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Chairman, I can probably


       9        explain.


      10             MR. JOOST:  Looks like Valencia is right


      11        there on the -- going out to Atlantic, it looks


      12        like it's got a left and a right and that one


      13        part is one way out.  Is that ----


      14             MR. HARDEN:  Yeah, there's --


      15             May I, Mr. Chairman?


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.


      17             MR. HARDEN:  There will be now three lanes


      18        on Valencia.  There will be a turn lane into


      19        Valencia.  And then next to that, there will be


      20        a dedicated turn lane westbound onto Atlantic to


      21        Valencia.  And then next to that will be a


      22        dedicated eastbound turn lane on Valencia.  So


      23        there will be three lanes at that location.


      24             MR. JOOST:  I just -- I didn't see the


      25        little lane there off to the side.  Okay.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HARDEN:  Yeah.  There will be -- and


       2        that's what I said, we're widening it onto our


       3        site so there's now 36 feet and there's three


       4        lanes.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  It shows better on this one


       6        (indicating).


       7             MR. HARDEN:  Yeah.  I'm sorry.  Yeah,


       8        there's a site -- a traffic plan that's a little


       9        bit better.


      10             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman.


      12             MR. REDMAN:  Anybody else on the queue


      13        or --


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Davis.


      15             MR. REDMAN:  Go ahead, Mr. Davis.


      16             MR. DAVIS:  I was just going to say I drive


      17        by this gas station every day heading to work,


      18        and I believe this is going to be a pretty


      19        improvement as far as what I can see, and I


      20        appreciate Mr. Redman working hard to make that


      21        facility much better.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      23             Mr. Redman.


      24             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      25             We have had a lot of discussion on this and





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        I understand the community's concern.  Their


       2        biggest concern was, you know, that all the


       3        traffic -- they have a hard time as it is


       4        getting out on Valencia -- from Valencia.  Their


       5        only exit on -- or entrance into their


       6        neighborhood is Valencia.


       7             But, you know, the adjustments that have


       8        been made here with the three lanes of traffic


       9        and the pattern that has been derived from this


      10        may not be the best in the world, but I think


      11        it's as good as they can come up with.  And the


      12        Racetrac people and Mr. Harden have pushed and


      13        pushed and pushed, you know, and tried to give


      14        everything they can to make this feasible for


      15        the community.


      16             I worked with the lighting and worked with


      17        the -- the barriers between the building and the


      18        neighborhood and moved it out farther.  And, in


      19        general, most of the people in the neighborhood,


      20        you know, I know they say they just didn't want


      21        it period, but they feel like they have come up


      22        with a -- from what I understand, as long as we


      23        work hard to get DOT to do the traffic situation


      24        to where it would make it better for them to get


      25        in and out and for the apartment complex next





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        door as well, I think that we're going to come


       2        up with a good thing.


       3             So I would encourage my colleagues to go


       4        ahead and support us on this and pass it


       5        through.


       6             Thank you.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Redman.


       8             Seeing no further speakers, we will open


       9        the ballot on 2009-667.


      10             (Committee ballot opened.)


      11             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      12             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      14             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      15             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      16             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      18        the vote.


      19             (Committee ballot closed.)


      20             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      22        approved 2009-667.


      23             2009-668, we have an amendment.  This is


      24        the rezoning.


      25             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REDMAN:  Second.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


       3        rezoning.  I'm sorry.  A motion and second on


       4        the amendment of the rezoning.


       5             All in favor of the amendment -- hold on.


       6             Mr. Reingold.


       7             This is the amendment as stated by


       8        Mr. Kelly.


       9             MR. REINGOLD:  Perfect.


      10             I just had one comment to it, and the


      11        committee can obviously do as it pleases.


      12             The 11th and 12th conditions, which were


      13        regarding the FDOT issue -- and, again, applaud


      14        Councilman Redman for saying he was going to


      15        step up and work with FDOT and the community to


      16        get those issue resolved.


      17             Just as worded, though, I wasn't sure how


      18        enforceable they really are and such that I


      19        didn't know if the committee still wanted to


      20        keep them in or tweak them a little bit to try


      21        to make them a little more enforceable.  They


      22        just essentially say, look, if FDOT approves


      23        them, they've got to do them, but whether the


      24        improvements are sought or whether they get


      25        approved are sort of outside of our scope.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir, for


       2        clarifying that.


       3             The amendment we're voting on is as stated


       4        by Mr. Kelly.


       5             All right.  All in favor signify by saying


       6        aye.


       7             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Opposed.


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, the amendment


      11        passes.


      12             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as amended.


      13             MR. REDMAN:  Second.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


      15        bill as amended.


      16             No speakers, please open the ballot.


      17             (Committee ballot opened.)


      18             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      19             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      20             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      21             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      23             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      25        the vote.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             (Committee ballot closed.)


       2             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


       4        approved 2009-668.


       5             Thank you all for all your hard work on


       6        that.


       7             All right.  Let's go on to page 11, top of


       8        the page, number 28.  This is our appeal, the


       9        decision of the Jacksonville Historic


      10        Preservation Commission.


      11             And let me just set this up.  I'd like for


      12        Mr. Teal to first tell us what happened at the


      13        Historic Preservation Commission, then we're


      14        going to kind of divvy this up as best we can


      15        between the two sides.  We will give equal time


      16        to Mr. Harden and all the opposing sides.


      17        Mr. Harden will go first and he can reserve


      18        whatever time he wants.  I'm going to give


      19        15 minutes to RAP, and then three minutes for


      20        anyone else that wants to speak in opposition,


      21        and five minutes to Mr. Teal to discuss the


      22        reasoning that the Historic Preservation


      23        Commission had and their decision, and then


      24        Mr. Harden will have his leftover time to rebut


      25        what was discussed.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             So let's start.  Mr. Teal, if you could


       2        first tell us what happened at the Historic


       3        Preservation Commission.


       4             MR. TEAL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       5             Through the Chair to the committee, this is


       6        here before you, resolution 2009-910, which is


       7        an appeal from the Historic Preservation


       8        Commission for an application to demolish a


       9        single-family residential structure at 1945


      10        Greenwood Avenue.  It was filed by a Bronson


      11        Lamb, Jr.


      12             The Historic Preservation Commission


      13        applied the criteria that are required through


      14        Chapter 307 of the ordinance code to be


      15        reviewed, in addition to the -- when you're


      16        talking about a demolition, there are several


      17        additional criteria that are required.  They


      18        reviewed all of that, based upon the report of


      19        the Planning and Development Department, and


      20        voted to deny demolition of the structure.


      21             Since then, the applicant has filed an


      22        appeal with the Land Use and Zoning Committee or


      23        the City Council to be heard by the Land Use and


      24        Zoning Committee, which is the item before you


      25        today.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you, sir.


       2             We'll need to open the public hearing.


       3             Mr. Harden, you're on for your first time,


       4        and then you can reserve whatever time --


       5             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)


       6             MR. HARDEN:  Before I start, let me ask you


       7        to pass --


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Hold on just a


       9        second, Mr. Harden.


      10             MR. HARDEN:  Sure.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  Anybody that has ex-parte,


      12        let's go ahead and declare that up front.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan.


      14             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      15             I'd like to declare ex-parte communication


      16        with the applicant, who I had a conversation


      17        with prior to the appeal but mostly


      18        procedurally; and a conversation with Mr. Harden


      19        concerning the scheduling; and the procedure for


      20        the appeal with Carmen Godwin, the executive


      21        director of RAP; with numerous other residents


      22        who left phone messages for me.  And most all


      23        the conversations I had were procedural in


      24        nature.


      25             Thank you.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  No one else?


       2             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Go ahead when you're


       4        ready, Mr. Harden.


       5             MR. HARDEN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       6             Paul Harden, 501 Riverside Avenue.


       7             As Mr. Teal indicated, this is an appeal


       8        from an action by the Historic Preservation


       9        Commission denying Mr. Lamb's request to


      10        demolish a home.  This property was acquired by


      11        Mr. Lamb back in the '70s.  He's owned it for


      12        over 35 years.  He's owned it for more than


      13        25 years before the historic overlay came into


      14        effect.


      15             I have provided to you two opinions that


      16        we'll ask you to consider tonight.  The first


      17        one is John Burrows.  Mr. Burrows is a


      18        certified -- State-certified building


      19        contractor.  And then a letter from Doyle Kelly,


      20        who is a consulting structural engineer.


      21        Mr. Burrows' opinion has numerous photographs of


      22        the building attached to it so you can see for


      23        yourself exactly the facility that we're dealing


      24        with.


      25             Mr. Lamb purchased this house so that his





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        mother-in-law could reside there.  She lived


       2        there for a long period of time.  She is now


       3        deceased, and he believes that the best use of


       4        this property is to demolish the house.  And we


       5        believe that we meet the criteria for the


       6        demolition, and we'd ask you to rely on these


       7        two opinions.


       8             First, let me go through Mr. Burrows'


       9        opinion.  And I'm not going to read the whole


      10        opinion, although it's available to you.  At the


      11        bottom he indicates that he spent a great deal


      12        of time on the house.  During the time he spent


      13        at the premises, "at no time did I get the


      14        impression I was in a historic building.


      15        Rather, my impression was that it's an


      16        89-year-old building with a great deal of


      17        deferred maintenance issues present.  See


      18        attached photos."


      19             And you can see in the photos the status of


      20        the property.  He describes in his report the


      21        exterior, it's wood shake shingle.  The


      22        importance of that is that's not the original


      23        exterior to the property.  There was shake


      24        shingle put on it prior to his acquisition many


      25        years ago.  Some of the shingles are falling





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        off.  Some of the old siding is still there, but


       2        it's not the original situation.


       3             The exterior window openings, as stated in


       4        Mr. Burrows' report, are covered with aluminum


       5        storm windows and screens.  That is to say they


       6        are not the original windows -- because it's


       7        important -- because you'll see in some of the


       8        reports of the Planning Department, they're


       9        suggesting that they are the original windows.


      10             The roof covering consists of Fiberglass


      11        shingles, obviously not a roofing material used


      12        in the 1920s, but that the current roof is at


      13        the end of its economic life.


      14             The next item that he notes is the attic,


      15        that there are a set of collar beams, but every


      16        third set of rafters were never installed.  This


      17        is an important item because you're going to see


      18        in the next report that the house is


      19        structurally unsafe, and part of it is as a


      20        result of the fact that every third set of


      21        rafters was never installed in the original


      22        house.


      23             The next indication is that there was


      24        originally a garage apartment on the property


      25        but that that garage was removed and that the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        driveway is still there, but it's in bad shape.


       2        So, again, the house doesn't have the original


       3        configuration that it had.


       4             On the interior, there is nothing of


       5        special significance notes Mr. Burrows.  The


       6        wooden windows are painted shut and have burglar


       7        bars.  The kitchen, bath and laundry are all in


       8        need of updating.


       9             Mr. Burrows then also explains that the


      10        house would have to be completely rewired to


      11        make it safe.  Currently, the house is wired


      12        using knob-and-tube wiring.  Knob-and-tube


      13        wiring, he notes, will result in the house being


      14        uninsurable if it stays in place.  So that's an


      15        expense that you would have to go to to make the


      16        house liveable.


      17             In summary, his opinion is the home has no


      18        historic value.  The garage and garage apartment


      19        have been demolished.  The exterior has been


      20        modified, the storm windows are not in keeping


      21        with the 1920 period.  The cost to rebuild the


      22        incomplete systems does not warrant the


      23        expense.  And then he suggests that the cost --


      24        it's only a 1,384-square-foot house, by the


      25        way.  To do the interior systems would be





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        slightly over $22,000.


       2             The second report that I would ask you to


       3        consider is the report of Doyle Kelly.


       4        Mr. Kelly indicates that he has reviewed


       5        Mr. Burrows' report.  Mr. Kelly, by the way, is


       6        a structural engineer, and he is opining with


       7        regard to the structural integrity of the


       8        property.


       9             Mr. Kelly indicates that what -- to bring


      10        the house up to structural integrity would


      11        require a complete set of structural


      12        calculations to prove the design would hold its


      13        structure at 119-mile-an-hour wind.  The roof


      14        system is now supported -- this is the last


      15        paragraph -- by outside walls and vertical


      16        members.  The vertical members help to reduce


      17        the deflection of the roof system.


      18             The members are not anchored to the walls


      19        and do not have capacity to resist the required


      20        uplift produced by wind.


      21             The first sentence of the second page is


      22        the one I want to particularly call your


      23        attention to.  "Trying to strengthen the


      24        existing frame system to support the updated


      25        loading would far exceed the cost of a complete





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        replacement of the home."


       2             So Mr. Kelly, a structural engineer, has


       3        opined that it would cost more to make this


       4        structurally safe than it would cost to build a


       5        new house at the location.


       6             Now, that does not include the cost of the


       7        $22,000 of interior improvements that


       8        Mr. Burrows indicated in his report.  And,


       9        again, that's doing nothing to the exterior,


      10        which is cedar shake shingles, which was not the


      11        original design.


      12             Now, with those comments in mind, I want to


      13        call your attention to the criteria that


      14        Mr. Teal indicated to you, and they're part of


      15        the Planning Department report.  I'm going to


      16        focus on the ones with regard to demolition.


      17             The first one is -- not in general, the


      18        first one.  The importance of the building or


      19        structure to the ambiance of the historic


      20        district.  What the report of the Planning


      21        Department says is it's our opinion that the


      22        building has enough of its original design to


      23        continue contributing.  So it doesn't say if


      24        it's 5 percent, 2 percent, 10 percent,


      25        50 percent.  It just says we think there's





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        enough to make it a contributing structure.


       2             The second -- the next criteria, number 3,


       3        the difficulty or impossibility of reproducing.


       4        They indicate in their report that reproduction


       5        is not impossible.  So that criteria is, in


       6        fact, met even by the Planning Department's


       7        report.


       8             The fourth criteria is whether the building


       9        or structure is one of the last remaining


      10        examples of its kind.  The Planning Department


      11        says that this style is common to the


      12        neighborhood.  Obviously, then, it's not one of


      13        the last.  So that criteria to allow demolition


      14        is met.


      15             The fifth one was whether or not there was


      16        reuse of the property.  Said there was no reuse


      17        plans described, but I think Mr. Burrows


      18        indicated that -- in his report, that it would


      19        be rebuilt at this location.


      20             The sixth criteria is the difficulty or


      21        impossibility of saving the building or


      22        structure from collapse.


      23             Now, take in mind the fact that the


      24        structural engineer who has reviewed this has


      25        said the cost of doing that would exceed the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        cost of a new building on the site, not counting


       2        anything else.  So I would respectfully suggest


       3        that it's difficult to save the structure of the


       4        building because it costs more than building a


       5        new house.


       6             Now, the seventh one really hits on this


       7        direct issue, whether the building is capable of


       8        earning economic return on its value.  What they


       9        would propose is that the applicant spend more


      10        than it would cost to build a new house, then


      11        another $22,000 to redo the interior, and then


      12        do whatever he has to do on the exterior.


      13             I would respectfully suggest that that


      14        would determine that there is no economic return


      15        on the value if you spend what is going to be in


      16        excess of the value of a new house at the


      17        location.


      18             Number 8 is whether there are feasible


      19        alternatives to demolition and certainly there


      20        are.  The feasible alternative would be to build


      21        a new structure on the location.  It is not, in


      22        fact, a feasible alternative to spend more than


      23        the cost of the value of building a new house


      24        just on the structure and then spend more money


      25        to redo the interior and more money to do the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        exterior.


       2             And the final criteria -- and this, again,


       3        hits on the issue before us today.  It's whether


       4        it would be an undue economic hardship to deny


       5        the property owner the right to demolish the


       6        property.


       7             I would respectfully suggest it would be an


       8        undue economic hardship to ask Mr. Lamb to spend


       9        more than the cost of a new house at this


      10        location by some further percentage and -- and


      11        then have what would basically be an old house


      12        that doesn't look like it was built when it was


      13        built in the 1920s.


      14             The goal of the Historic Preservation


      15        ordinance is to preserve things that contribute


      16        that look like the historic structure.  This


      17        house clearly does not.  You have multiple


      18        pictures.  The exterior doesn't, the interior


      19        doesn't.  The building, when it was built,


      20        wasn't built structural sound, and the cost of


      21        bringing it up to speed is an undue economic


      22        hardship.


      23             Now, let me call your attention.  You have


      24        before you as part of the record the transcript


      25        of the Planning Commission [sic].  On the two





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        criteria that the Planning Department suggest


       2        are not met -- because all the rest of them I


       3        think by the record are not met -- is whether or


       4        not the alterations are reversible, taking the


       5        building back to the original appearance.  In


       6        other words, could you spend some more money,


       7        not just the cost of restructuring it, not just


       8        the 22,000 on the interior, but taking the


       9        back -- the exterior to make it look -- and the


      10        answer of the Planning Department is, as far as


      11        I can tell -- well, in all due respect, if you


      12        look at the pictures, as far as they can tell,


      13        is incorrect.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're at ten minutes, by


      15        the way.


      16             MR. HARDEN:  Sir?


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  You're at ten minutes, by


      18        the way.


      19             MR. HARDEN:  Thank you, sir.


      20             The next issue is the weight of the


      21        building.  The Planning Department indicated --


      22        they opined to the Historic Preservation


      23        Commission that they didn't think that the


      24        pressure, that is, the structural thing, was


      25        very serious.  I don't know how reversible that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        is.  Well, you have today an opinion from a


       2        structural engineer who indicates that the cost


       3        of doing that would exceed the cost of building


       4        a new house at the location.


       5             The final thing I want to call to your


       6        attention is that RAP published in their


       7        community newsletter a comment on this property,


       8        and I have it before you.  It says -- they're


       9        discussing whether to demolish or restore a


      10        building, and here's how they describe this


      11        property:


      12              "Most recently, a longtime resident" --


      13        that's my client -- "wants to tear down a 1920s


      14        bungalow because demolition is cheaper than


      15        restoration.  The quaint home located on


      16        Greenwood Avenue" -- and I ask you to look at


      17        the pictures and see if it's a quaint home on


      18        Greenwood Avenue --"is in overall good


      19        condition."


      20             Now, in all due respect, if you will read


      21        the reports of the experts, the RAP suggestion


      22        that this quaint home is in overall good


      23        condition is just not an accurate statement of


      24        the facts.


      25             I would ask you to consider the actual





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        facts of the experts that we've tendered to


       2        you.  I'd ask you to consider the photographs


       3        you have in front of you.  Consider the


       4        application of those facts to the criteria.  It


       5        costs more to make it structurally sound than


       6        build a new house there.  That doesn't say


       7        anything about what the interior and the


       8        exterior cost or redoing the driveway will cost.


       9             I believe that Mr. Lamb's request meets the


      10        criteria and we respectfully ask this committee


      11        to allow us to move forward with the demolition


      12        permit.


      13             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.  And you have


      15        used 12 minutes and 20 seconds.


      16             Any questions for Mr. Harden?


      17             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you, sir.


      19             And we'll go to the representatives of RAP


      20        at this point.  And we'll be giving you guys


      21        15 minutes.  I don't know how many of you we


      22        have but -- okay.  So it's basically three


      23        minutes each.


      24             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      25             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Go ahead.


       2             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Kay Ehas, and


       3        I reside at 2322 Dellwood Avenue.  I'm the


       4        current chair of Riverside Avondale


       5        Preservation.


       6             By the way, my home still has knob and tube


       7        and I've been insured for 20 years.


       8             In the 24 years between RAP's founding and


       9        the passage of the ordinance creating the


      10        Riverside Avondale Historic District, we lost


      11        fully one quarter of all the historic structures


      12        to demolition.


      13             The issue we're here to discuss today, the


      14        proposed demolition of yet another great old


      15        home, is the very reason RAP sought the


      16        legislative protections of the historic district


      17        status in the first place.


      18             In 1988, the residents of Riverside


      19        Avondale voted by referendum to establish the


      20        historic district.  The Jacksonville City


      21        Council then created regulations in the


      22        ordinance governing changes to structures within


      23        the district.  It was a democratic process


      24        approved by both property owners and elected


      25        officials.  And every homeowner in the district,





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        regardless of whether they were part of the


       2        81 percent who voted in favor of the referendum,


       3        has enjoyed a dramatic increase in their


       4        property values as a result.


       5             On page 4 of our presentation, you'll see a


       6        chart comparing median sales in Riverside


       7        Avondale with the rest of the county.  The chart


       8        provides ample evidence that homes in


       9        Jacksonville's designated historic district not


      10        only have experienced impressive gains in their


      11        values since the district was established, but


      12        have also held their value better in the recent


      13        economic downturn than almost any other part of


      14        Jacksonville.


      15             So what accounts for the stability and


      16        strength in the historic district's property


      17        values?  It's the fact that buyers believe the


      18        preservation ordinance helps protect their


      19        investments.  They know the ordinance was


      20        designed to preserve their neighborhood's


      21        historic character by providing protection for


      22        the unique architectural materials and


      23        craftsmanship in these older homes.


      24             They know the ordinance also is supposed to


      25        ensure their neighbors' protected property is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        less likely to be altered in a manner that might


       2        reduce their own property's value.  Trusting in


       3        the protections the ordinance is supposed to


       4        provide, Riverside Avondale residents have


       5        infused millions of dollars in the local economy


       6        by renovating and rehabilitating their


       7        properties.  The City, in turn, has collected


       8        higher property taxes as money invested and as


       9        property values increase.


      10             So what are these protections that were


      11        promised?  They're pretty simple really and very


      12        clear.  Contributing structures in historic


      13        districts are to be maintained rather than


      14        demolished and historic features repaired rather


      15        than replaced.


      16             Our presentation will show that there is no


      17        legal basis for demolition.  The home is a


      18        historically contributing structure in good


      19        condition.  Pages 7 and 8 of our presentation


      20        show structures in much worse shape than the


      21        Greenwood Avenue home that have been


      22        rehabilitated.


      23             Our presentation will show that economic


      24        hardship does not exist in this case.  Our


      25        presentation also will show the Jacksonville





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Historic Preservation Commission was accurate


       2        and thorough in its ruling, and Florida courts


       3        have upheld similar denials of demolition


       4        requests.


       5             We believe granting demolition to the


       6        contributing structure in good condition would


       7        emasculate the historic preservation ordinance


       8        that protects historic districts.  If we accept


       9        the owner's argument at face value that the cost


      10        of fixing and maintaining this house imposes an


      11        economic hardship, then couldn't the owners of


      12        every vacant and unsold property claim the same


      13        thing?


      14             Granting this demolition appeal


      15        dramatically lowers the bar for any future


      16        demolition request.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      18             I have Mr. Love, James Love.


      19             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Good evening.


      21             My name is James Love, and I live at 1740


      22        South Edgewood Avenue.  And for the past 26


      23        years, I've owned and operated a business in the


      24        historic district and also have a fourplex in


      25        Avondale.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I'm the president of the Park and King Area


       2        Association and have been a board member of


       3        Riverside Avondale Preservation and now speaking


       4        against the destruction of the bungalow at 1945


       5        Greenwood Avenue.


       6             The City Council has added ten additional


       7        hurdles, criterias to the historic ordinance to


       8        determine if a home is -- in the historic


       9        district may be demolished.


      10             Criteria number 1, is the building of


      11        historic or architectural significance?  And


      12        number 2 is, Is the building of historical


      13        importance to the ambience of the district?  The


      14        answer is yes to both those cases.


      15             The City of Jacksonville's Riverside


      16        Avondale design regulations states that it's a


      17        contributing structure, and it was listed in


      18        1998 in the documents which made us a historic


      19        district.  And it also states that these


      20        structures are to be maintained and preserved in


      21        the historic district, not demolished.


      22             This cute 1920 shake bungalow is not only


      23        historic by architectural historians, but is


      24        individually listed on the contributing


      25        structure list by City -- COJ regulations.  By





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        multiple definitions, this 1945 Greenwood Avenue


       2        home is of historical value and architecturally


       3        significant, and to say otherwise is folly.


       4             The home actually predates the platting of


       5        Avondale.  It was literally on the edge of


       6        Jacksonville when it was built.


       7             Criteria number 3, Is it difficult or


       8        impossible to reduce such a building because of


       9        design or texture or material or detail or


      10        unique location?  The answer to this is, yes, of


      11        course.


      12             This bungalow is the oldest building on the


      13        block, 1920.  The hardwood floors of these older


      14        homes are magnificent when refinished.  And also


      15        it has the plaster walls.  To build this home


      16        again would be very difficult if not


      17        impossible.


      18             Criteria number 4, Is the building or


      19        structure of this last remaining example of its


      20        kind in the region, the county, or the


      21        neighborhood?  Well, there's not very many


      22        outside of a historic district.  So you can say


      23        yes to that too.  Go try to find one in Mandarin


      24        like this.  You can't because they're only built


      25        from 1910 to 1930.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Just because it's not the only particular


       2        style does not provide reason for demolition.


       3        For example, in the American Bungalow Magazine


       4        features entire neighborhoods of bungalows that


       5        are all protected.  This lovely little bungalow


       6        easily meets the first four criterias set into


       7        place by the City Council.  Jacksonville was


       8        fortunate to have bungalows and a few --


       9             We're fortunate to have any left, and to


      10        tear down even one would be a travesty because,


      11        if we did, then all we would -- all it would


      12        take is for anyone owning a bungalow just to let


      13        it -- you know, defer a little maintenance,


      14        declare it's too expensive to maintain, and then


      15        rip it down if we allowed this to happen.


      16             Please don't let this happen.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sir, if you'd come back up,


      18        Mr. Redman has a question.


      19             Councilman Redman.


      20             MR. LOVE:  Yes, sir.


      21             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you.


      22             Would it make any difference to RAP if the


      23        type of structure that was built -- rebuilt


      24        there, if it was tore down?  I mean, if you were


      25        to try to build a structure that fit in the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        neighborhood, that fit in, would that make a


       2        difference?


       3             MR. LOVE:  Oh, yeah, it's a contributing


       4        structure.  And when you tear down a building,


       5        it takes away from its historical character.


       6        It's very important that it stays where it is,


       7        and building --


       8             We've had a few built that looked like old


       9        homes, but they were built on vacant lots that


      10        either were houses that burned down or they were


      11        crack houses that they moved or something, but


      12        this is not the case here.


      13             MR. REDMAN:  So y'all are -- your group is


      14        denying the fact that these pictures that are --


      15        the other party had that showed the structure


      16        being in the poor condition, that it's in --


      17             MR. LOVE:  Right.  Well, there's a lot of


      18        homes that need maintenance.  Okay?  And 22,000


      19        for a lot of folks in the Riverside Avondale


      20        area is not a lot of money of maintenance to


      21        do.  You don't have to do it all at once.  You


      22        do it a little bit at a time.


      23             It was being lived in just I think a year


      24        and a half ago, so it's not like it couldn't be


      25        lived in.  It wouldn't take much to bring it up





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to living conditions.  To bring it up to


       2        pristine conditions would take a lot, but not


       3        living conditions.


       4             MR. REDMAN:  Okay.  Thank you.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       6             Kevin Kuzel.


       7             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       8             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That's me.


       9             Before I begin, I'm going to be talking


      10        about City Council criteria 5 through 8, which


      11        was added by the City Council concerning


      12        demolition.


      13             And Mr. Love spoke about 1 through 4, and


      14        I'm going to be relying on information that


      15        Mr. Lamb and Mr. Harden -- I'm assuming Mr. Lamb


      16        has provided to the JHPC.


      17             My name is Kevin Kuzel.  I live at 1130


      18        Acosta Street, near Park and King, in


      19        Riverside.  I'm a member of the board of


      20        directors of Riverside Avondale Preservation and


      21        a treasurer for the Park and King Area


      22        Association.


      23             I've been a longtime advocate for the


      24        rights of property owners.  However, there are


      25        circumstances where the desires of the property





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        owner and post consequences on the surrounding


       2        area, the community, and must be challenged.


       3             In a reference to the desire of Mr. Lamb to


       4        destroy his historic structure at 1945 Greenwood


       5        Avenue, this is one such circumstance.  This is


       6        not a personal disagreement.  There's nothing


       7        personal about it.  It's a matter of law.


       8             City Council has added ten criteria that


       9        must be considered.  I'm going to be talking


      10        about 5 through 8:


      11             Number 5, whether there are definite plans


      12        for the reuse of the property if the structure


      13        is demolished.


      14             Number 6, difficulty in saving the


      15        structure from collapse.


      16             Number 7, is the structure capable of


      17        earning a reasonable financial return on its


      18        value?


      19             And 8, whether there are other reasonable


      20        or feasible alternatives to demolition.


      21             Mr. Lamb has stated to the JHPC that he has


      22        no plans whatsoever beyond demolishing this


      23        bungalow except clearing the land and creating a


      24        vacant lot.  I don't think there's any reason to


      25        have a historic district or a preservation





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        commission to protect vacant lots.


       2             The house at 1945 Greenwood is not in


       3        danger of collapse.  Relatives of the owner


       4        lived in the home up until recently.


       5             Historic planners determined there is no


       6        major damage on the interior or exterior of the


       7        structure and there's no evidence that the roof


       8        is causing problems or further damage to the


       9        structure.


      10             Mr. Lamb has included with his request the


      11        reports of three different contractors and an


      12        engineer, none of whom say the building has


      13        severe structural damage.  Most of the reports


      14        show the major problems are with systems or


      15        utilities that were removed by Mr. Lamb, the


      16        owner.


      17             Mr. Burrows' report states he was hired to


      18        evaluate whether the home has historical


      19        significance, but no one of his findings has


      20        anything to do with historic value, only items


      21        that need to be replaced or repaired.


      22             Other issues such as broken concrete on the


      23        driveway and a roof and other things you see in


      24        the pictures that Mr. Burrows submitted are all


      25        things that are easily remedied or





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        grandfathered.


       2             John Burrows' report shows numerous


       3        problems, none of them being structural.  You


       4        can be sure that if all the houses with numerous


       5        problems in a historic district were demolished,


       6        we would be losing at least one-third of the


       7        historic district.


       8             Are there feasible alternatives to


       9        destroying the house at 1945 Greenwood?  Of


      10        course there are.  This property could be sold.


      11        With a purchase price of $9,500, admittedly, in


      12        1970 or approximately then and a renovation


      13        estimated approximately 22,000, you estimate a


      14        net profit could exceed $280,000.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.  Your time


      16        has expired.


      17             MR. KUZEL:  Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have Jennifer Mansfield.


      19             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Hi, Ms. Mansfield.


      21             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.


      22             I'm Jennifer Mansfield.  I've lived at 2043


      23        College Street for nine years.  I am a


      24        litigation attorney at Holland & Knight with an


      25        emphasis in construction law, lien law, and real





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        estate litigation.


       2             In 2001, I bought my house.  I had real


       3        concerns about the neighborhood, but I purchased


       4        it anyway because I knew that the ordinance that


       5        protected this neighborhood would also protect


       6        my investment and home.


       7             Like the house on Greenwood Avenue, my


       8        house had the original siding covered with a


       9        different siding, and yet it was nonetheless


      10        classified as a contributing structure to the


      11        neighborhood, as it should be, whether the


      12        Greenwood home contributes to the historic


      13        district was determined during the surveys


      14        conducted in the 1980s and adopted into


      15        ordinance in 1998.  So it's not really an issue


      16        as to whether this Greenwood home is historic or


      17        architecturally significant.  That was decided


      18        over a decade ago.


      19             Under the ordinance, the building is


      20        contributing.  Criteria 9, which is on page 22


      21        of our papers, states that the City Council,


      22        like the JHPC before it, should consider whether


      23        the property no longer contributes to the


      24        historic district.


      25             On page 12 is a black-and-white photograph





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of the house taken at the time of the initial


       2        survey.  If you compare that photograph to the


       3        photograph on page 5 of the present condition,


       4        it is readily apparent that the only discernible


       5        difference in the building is that the roof


       6        shingles were replaced.


       7             Because there's been no significant change


       8        to the structure since it was listed as


       9        contributing by the city, there can only be one


      10        conclusion.  The building continues to be


      11        contributing and the appellant cannot meet


      12        criteria number 9.


      13             That brings us to criteria number 10 on


      14        page 24, whether it would be an undue economic


      15        hardship to deny demolition.


      16             As stated by other speakers, there is no


      17        economic hardship.  The property is capable of


      18        making a good economic return.  Moreover, there


      19        is no economic waste, which is when the cost of


      20        repair exceeds the value of the home after


      21        repairs.


      22             The structural engineer gives no prices and


      23        there's no evidence of how much it would cost


      24        and they have not satisfied their burden.  The


      25        evidence that was presented by the appellants is





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        only $22,000 in repairs and does not even come


       2        close to establishing economic waste.


       3             Undue economic hardship means that the


       4        applicant must prove that he actually has a


       5        hardship in maintaining the property and that


       6        the hardship must be unreasonable.  It does not


       7        mean that an owner should not have to spend any


       8        money if he doesn't want to.


       9             If proof of that were needed for that


      10        obvious point, you would only need to look at


      11        the city zoning and health codes to know that


      12        property owners have a responsibility to


      13        maintain their property and can be made to spend


      14        money in order to do so.


      15             Likewise, we quote and cite a court on


      16        page 25 of our papers for the proposition that


      17        an owner may incidentally be required to make


      18        out-of-pocket expenditures in order to remain in


      19        compliance with an ordinance, but that does not


      20        invalidate the ordinance.


      21             We also cite other legal cases continuing


      22        to page 28 of our papers.  Those cases represent


      23        legal principles important to this case but


      24        simple in concept.  They are, there has to be


      25        standards and criteria for the historic





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        district, which we have.  Those standards and


       2        criteria must be followed by the party hearing


       3        the application -- that includes LUZ and City


       4        Council -- and those standards must be applied


       5        equally to every one.  To not do so will open


       6        the floodgates to further appeals to this body.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


       8             Ms. Godwin.


       9             (Ms. Godwin approaches the podium.)


      10             MS. GODWIN:  Thank you.


      11             In summary, this application does not meet


      12        the basic regulations, nor does it meet any of


      13        the additional criteria for demolition within


      14        the City of Jacksonville's ordinance, which is


      15        our legal guide.


      16             It's clear that there's no economic or


      17        physical justification to demolish this


      18        structure.  First, it's historically


      19        contributing.  In fact, it's the oldest home on


      20        this block.  It's in good overall condition, as


      21        noted by the evidence the applicant provided to


      22        the historic commission, the fact that relatives


      23        lived there within the last year, and through


      24        physical inspection by the lead historic


      25        preservation staff employed by the COJ.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             The owner himself states that he has no


       2        plans for the property, and it is definitely


       3        capable of earning an economic return on its


       4        value even through rental or sale, seeing how he


       5        purchased the property for $9,500 and it's now


       6        valued at over 300,000 on the property


       7        appraiser's web site.


       8             Allowing demolition where the legal


       9        criteria cannot be met will have major negative


      10        consequences for our entire neighborhood.  This


      11        case is out in the public domain.  It is high


      12        profile.  Our community is watching and they're


      13        waiting for your decision.


      14             Overturning the JHPC decision will set a


      15        major precedence because in over 12 years, the


      16        LUZ has only overturned one JHPC decision to


      17        deny demolition.  It happened only one year


      18        after the ordinance was in place, and that home


      19        had major termite damage and had been stripped


      20        of all of its windows and doors.


      21             The City established the historic district


      22        regulations.  Over 80 percent of our residents


      23        who cast ballots voted this set of laws into


      24        place.  These regulations must be applied to


      25        everyone in the district equally no matter their





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        station and must be used when determining this


       2        appeal.


       3             As mentioned, state and U.S. courts have


       4        upheld historic district regulations in other


       5        unfounded demolition cases.  Eighteen hundred


       6        other people in our district bought their


       7        property prior to the ordinance going into


       8        place.


       9             If you use this to support a decision to


      10        demolish, one-third of our historic structures


      11        would be in jeopardy of demolition.


      12             Appendix 1 in your packet is a letter from


      13        the Florida Trust asking you to uphold the


      14        JHPC's decision.


      15             There's no evidence that either Burrows or


      16        Kelly, the structural engineers, that have been


      17        provided to you show that evidence.  There's no


      18        evidence that they have any experience with


      19        historic properties.  Knob-and-tube wiring and


      20        storm windows covering original windows are


      21        common in historic districts, and this house has


      22        been structurally sound for over 90 years.


      23             The JHPC has architectural engineers and


      24        construction experience, and they have


      25        experience with historic properties.  They have





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        been fair in their rulings in the past, and they


       2        have allowed demolitions where there was


       3        substantial damage to a home or when it was


       4        deemed noncontributing.


       5             They certainly considered all the evidence


       6        in this case and stated they only supported


       7        their decision.


       8             Thank you.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Godwin, could you come


      10        back up.  I don't know if you gave your name and


      11        address.  Mr. Joost wanted it.


      12             MS. GODWIN:  My name and address?


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Or Mr. Redman.  I don't know


      14        if we got it in the record.


      15             MS. GODWIN:  Carmen Godwin, 2623 Herschel


      16        Street.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      18             MS. GODWIN:  Thank you.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Now, I have -- I


      20        thought we were only going to have five speakers


      21        from RAP, but we have a lot of other people here


      22        that want to speak in opposition.


      23             If I call your name and you decide that you


      24        would rather pass, just let me know.  That's


      25        fine.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             We have Steve Congro.  Is that it?


       2             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sorry if I butchered your


       4        name.


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Steve Congro, 2577 Forbes


       6        Street.


       7             I won't take much of your time.  I'm here


       8        because I stand behind RAP and I oppose the


       9        demolition of this home.


      10             I've lived in the area for about five years


      11        and have owned my current home for about a


      12        year.  I chose to purchase my home for many


      13        reasons, but one of the most significant was


      14        because of the fact that it is located in a


      15        historic district.


      16             Traditionally, the historic districts in


      17        cities hold their value better than nonhistoric


      18        districts.  We've seen proof of that with the


      19        national recession that we've had.  If you look


      20        at Jacksonville home prices, the historic


      21        district has lost less than most -- than the


      22        Jacksonville average.


      23             Demolishing this home would set a bad


      24        precedent in enforcing the historic ordinances


      25        that we currently have.  It will give any





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        property owner the right to let their house fall


       2        into neglect, not put money into their house,


       3        and just in the end claim economic hardship and


       4        demolish it.


       5             Many of the issues that were brought up


       6        such as knob-and-tube wiring and painted shut


       7        windows are the case in many homes in Riverside


       8        and Avondale, including my own.  This home,


       9        purchased 60 years after Hurricane Katrina -- or


      10        excuse me -- Hurricane Dora, was said to need


      11        about $22,000 in maintenance.  If after 40 years


      12        of owning my home it only needs $22,000 in


      13        maintenance, I'll be thrilled.


      14             For these reasons and the reasons that have


      15        already been stated, I'm opposed to this


      16        demolition.


      17             Thank you.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      19             Brandy Maddox.


      20             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Waive.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Wayne Wood.


      22             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


      23             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.  I'm Wayne Wood.


      24        I'm -- live at 2821 Riverside Avenue.  I'm the


      25        author of Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        and several other books on Jacksonville's


       2        architecture and history.


       3             So about in October, Mr. Lamb and his wife


       4        called me and said they'd like to come by and


       5        visit and talk about this property, and I


       6        invited him over to my house.  And I think they


       7        were seeking my blessing for demolishing the


       8        house, little realizing that I had a very strong


       9        stake and opposed that and explained to them


      10        why.


      11             You know, this building is not the Taj


      12        Mahal, let's face it, but it's a contributing


      13        structure to an important historic district.


      14        Jacksonville has very few historic districts.


      15        Riverside Avondale is one of the largest


      16        historic districts in the south.  It's known


      17        throughout the southeastern United States, and


      18        it has the largest collection of bungalows of


      19        any neighborhood in the state of Florida.


      20        Bungalows are a significant architectural


      21        specimen, and his specimen is a very good


      22        contributing structure, and I told him so.  This


      23        is a historically- and architecturally-


      24        significant house.


      25             I chuckled a while ago with Mr. Harden.  He





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        gave a ruling that this was not a historic


       2        structure.  And I dare say that I'm one of the


       3        few historic architectural historians in this


       4        room, and I will testify that this is a


       5        significant structure.


       6             You know, I told Mr. Lamb that he has lots


       7        of alternatives, and he admitted that the


       8        integrity of the house that had been compromised


       9        was at his own doing and that there are many


      10        houses in the neighborhood much worse than this


      11        that will be fixed up as has been testified to.


      12             He could rent it, he could sell it, he


      13        could donate it and get a huge tax write-off if


      14        he doesn't want the house, or he could even do


      15        another clever thing called a facade easement,


      16        which he would get a major tax write-off and


      17        could keep the house.  And he said he would


      18        consider those things.  And we left after a very


      19        cordial meeting, and I honestly thought that he


      20        was going to call it off.  I remarked to him


      21        that for the cost of paying a high-price


      22        attorney, as he's doing, he could have restored


      23        the house and solved many of the problems.


      24             And I've been to dozens if not hundreds of


      25        meetings like this over the last 30 years trying





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        to preserve our neighbor- -- our historic


       2        district's integrity and save what is a jewel of


       3        Jacksonville's architecture.  Riverside Avondale


       4        Preservation -- Riverside Avondale historic


       5        district is known throughout the south, and


       6        retaining that quality is a very -- great value


       7        to the city of Jacksonville, and that's why this


       8        body passed the historic preservation


       9        ordinance.


      10             The Historic Preservation Commission is


      11        your expert, your expert, and they have ruled


      12        unanimously that this building should not be


      13        torn down.  It is viable historically,


      14        structurally, and every other means.  And to


      15        vote against this would emasculate, would


      16        devastate the historic preservation ordinance


      17        and will become the first precedent where a


      18        historic, viable structure has been allowed to


      19        be demolished.


      20             And I plead with you, don't set that


      21        precedence.  Do what is right for our


      22        neighborhood.  It's what the majority of the


      23        people in our neighborhood want and it's in the


      24        best interest of the city of Jacksonville.


      25             And I thank you very much.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


       2             Louise De Spain.


       3             (Ms. De Spain approaches the podium.)


       4             MS. DE SPAIN:  Louise De Spain, 1851 North


       5        Liberty Street.


       6             I'm not a resident of the Riverside


       7        Avondale area.  I'm from Springfield, and I do


       8        represent SPAR.  And I'm not going to reiterate


       9        any of the things that have already been said.


      10             I would like to just add that I am also


      11        opposed to the -- I am opposed to the demolition


      12        for the very same reasons that you've heard from


      13        all of the residents who live in that area.


      14             I live in a 1,400-square-foot bungalow that


      15        code enforcement didn't even want to come close


      16        to.  It's now a beautiful home.  I've restored


      17        three houses in Springfield.  Any one of those


      18        could have been torn down for a better reason


      19        than this one, and they were not torn down, and


      20        now three families live in them.


      21             So I would join with them and say, please,


      22        do not let this demolition happen.


      23             Thank you.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, ma'am.


      25             Margaret Tocknell.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Indicating.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Robin Lumb.


       3             (Audience member approaches the podium.)


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good evening, sir.


       5             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi.  Good evening.


       6             My name is Robin Lumb, and I reside at 2164


       7        Gilmore Street in Riverside.


       8             Thirty-five years ago, Riverside and


       9        Avondale were at a crossroads.  Our residents


      10        knew they could either allow blight and decay to


      11        run their course or they could pull together and


      12        reverse the neglect and revitalize these


      13        historic neighborhoods.  They chose the latter.


      14        And, as they say, the rest is history.


      15             In 1998, following a districtwide


      16        referendum that was approved overwhelmingly by


      17        the voters, the Jacksonville City Council


      18        formally established the Riverside Avondale


      19        Historic District, backing up its creation with


      20        specific legislation that addressed every aspect


      21        of how homes and buildings would be maintained,


      22        repaired, improved, or demolished.  It wasn't


      23        easy and it wasn't cheap.


      24             But the higher standards imposed on


      25        property owners inside the historic district





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        accelerated the preservation effort and boosted


       2        property values along with it.  The residents


       3        and property owners inside Riverside and


       4        Avondale, knowing they were obligated to


       5        maintain a higher standard, were induced to


       6        invest millions of dollars towards renovating


       7        and rehabilitating their properties.


       8             They had the assurance in doing so that the


       9        laws would be applied equally and fairly to


      10        every property owner.  At the end of the day,


      11        everybody was a winner:  the property owners,


      12        the city, the community at-large because the


      13        rules were clearly spelled out and the law was


      14        enforced, but nobody wins if the rules are


      15        ignored.


      16             When the voters approved historic district


      17        status for Riverside and Avondale, they voted,


      18        in effect, to encumber their property rights.


      19        But in the bargain, they gained more valuable


      20        property rights, specifically the right to


      21        expect that their sacrifices would be shared


      22        sacrifices and that their property would be more


      23        valuable than it would have been otherwise


      24        because everyone was subject to the same


      25        requirements.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             We have a prominent and well-respected


       2        member of the community who has made an


       3        application for demolition.  I am sympathetic,


       4        but I remain unpersuaded, especially if the


       5        argument is one of economic hardship.


       6             If the economic hardship is that it's


       7        costly to maintain a home in a good and


       8        substantial state of repair, then every


       9        homeowner inside the historic district faces the


      10        same identical hardship.  These are all older


      11        homes.  That's the point.  Not one of them can


      12        boast that they routinely follow modern building


      13        standards.


      14             Having created the historic district, I


      15        believe it would be contrary to sound public


      16        policy for the City Council to allow this


      17        demolition to go forward.  After all, the


      18        linchpin of historic preservation is simply


      19        this:  that having established historic


      20        preservation as a desirable goal, you stop


      21        tearing stuff down.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      23             Pamela Telis.


      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I pass.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Jack Shad.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. GODWIN:  He had to leave.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Not here.


       3             And Jean Grimsley is our last.


       4             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I waive.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Well, that's all of


       6        our speakers in opposition.


       7             Mr. Teal, could you speak on behalf of the


       8        Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission?


       9        And as a part of that, when we close, could you


      10        explain to us our options of where we can take


      11        it from here?


      12             MR. TEAL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      13             Jason Teal with the General Counsel's


      14        Office.


      15             Mr. Lamb purchased this property in 1970.


      16        He's owned it for -- going on 40 years now.  And


      17        as he stated at the Historic Preservation


      18        Commission meeting, page 48 of the transcript,


      19        he says, "I bought this house in 1970 to house


      20        my then mother-in-law and then house her oldest


      21        daughter, but both are now deceased.  I did not


      22        receive rent.  It was a donation in kind.


      23             "When they both went on, my desire would be


      24        to demolish it and grass it and save it for my


      25        grandchildren.  Unbeknownst to me, I didn't know





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that I had to go through the historical society


       2        to demolish it.  I kept it up the best that I


       3        could, but I don't want to be in the rental


       4        business.  I thought it was a liability and I'm


       5        not into the rental business.  I'm retired and


       6        sometimes tired."


       7             So he wants to tear it down so that he can


       8        grass it and he can save an empty lot to someday


       9        speculatively pass on to his grandchildren.  He


      10        doesn't want to rent it, he doesn't want to do


      11        anything in the meantime other than that.


      12             Now, Commissioner Schifanella pretty much


      13        summed it up quite succinctly by stating, "I


      14        really appreciate all the research that was done


      15        in preparing the case for demolition, but it


      16        does seem to support the fact that there really


      17        is nothing intrinsically dangerous or wrong with


      18        this structure, and the basis for the argument


      19        for demolition is more a convenience to the


      20        homeowner.  And so I really sympathize with his


      21        situation in wanting to maintain the property


      22        for his family, but I don't think this is the


      23        appropriate course to demolish the building."


      24             So that's what he wants to do.  It's a


      25        convenience to him to demolish the building





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        because, as he stated, he doesn't want to


       2        maintain it, he doesn't want to rent it, he


       3        doesn't want to take care of it anymore.


       4        Basically he just wants it torn down and he


       5        wants to sit on a vacant lot.


       6             Demolition is the ultimate removal of


       7        historic fabric and it should be considered as


       8        the last resort.  As was stated by the speakers,


       9        this body has approved one demolition since the


      10        historic district was formed.  In 1999, it


      11        approved demolition of a structure that was so


      12        termite ridden that it was structurally


      13        unsound.  That's the only time that this body


      14        has authorized the demolition of a structure.


      15             Now, going to Mr. Harden's evidence, he


      16        pointed out -- he handed out two letters to


      17        you.  One was by Mr. Burrows and the other by


      18        Mr. Kelly.  He succinctly went through


      19        Mr. Burrows' letter, but he left out a few


      20        things.  So, if I could, I'd like to direct your


      21        attention to that letter, which I'll note is


      22        dated August 13, 2009.  The John Burrows Company


      23        is at the top.


      24             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Chairman, may I -- well,


      25        as I understand Jason's role, it's to explain to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        you what happened in the Historic Preservation


       2        Commission.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Teal has got five


       4        minutes to argue on behalf of the historic


       5        commission.


       6             MR. HARDEN:  Thank you.


       7             MR. TEAL:  The letter states, first of all,


       8        the third paragraph down -- here's the problems


       9        that Mr. Burrows found.  The electric service to


      10        the home has been cut and the electric meter


      11        removed.  What it doesn't say is that Mr. Lamb


      12        himself did that.


      13             Additionally, the low distribution panel,


      14        including all circuit breakers, have been


      15        removed.  Again, Mr. Lamb did that.


      16             The next paragraph, the electric water


      17        heater also located on the rear porch has been


      18        removed, by Mr. Lamb.


      19             The next paragraph, central heating and


      20        cooling was once provided to the property, but


      21        both the outside condenser and interior air


      22        handler have been removed, by Mr. Lamb.


      23             The next paragraph that Mr. Harden did


      24        read -- what it says, however, is that the


      25        property has a great deal of deferred





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        maintenance issues present.  He's owned the


       2        building for 40 years.  If there's deferred


       3        maintenance issues, it's because Mr. Lamb


       4        himself deferred maintenance.


       5             The next page, the first paragraph, the


       6        exterior cladding is -- now, let me point out.


       7        This is where Mr. Harden started talking about


       8        what was wrong with the building.  The exterior


       9        cladding is an unpainted wooden shake shingle.


      10        Several shingles at two locations have been


      11        removed.  That's not structural; that's


      12        cosmetic.


      13             Next paragraph, exterior window openings


      14        have all been covered with a combination of


      15        aluminium storm window screen pits.  Appearance


      16        of the aluminium detracts from the otherwise


      17        wooden exterior.  Again, not structural,


      18        cosmetic.


      19             The next paragraph, the roof is 21 years


      20        old.  And while no leaks were detected -- no


      21        leaks were noted.  In other words, the roof is


      22        sound.  But he notes that the roof covering is


      23        at the end of its economic life in his opinion.


      24        Again, he's owned it since 1970.  Of course it's


      25        going to be at the end of its economic life.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        It's 21 years old.  So welcome to home


       2        ownership.


       3             The next paragraph noted that the customary


       4        collar beam running between every third set of


       5        rafters were never installed.  Okay.  Again,


       6        Mr. Lamb is the one that reroofed this


       7        building.  If this was a problem, why was it not


       8        noted when he reroofed it originally 21 years


       9        ago?  And evidently it's been in that condition


      10        for 21 years, so it can't be all that


      11        structurally unsound in order to do that.


      12             Finally, the point on all of this, again --


      13        going to the next thing was Mr. Kelly's letter.


      14        He talks about all of the roofing problems and


      15        the structural problems and all of those other


      16        problems, but what wasn't presented to you all,


      17        and I think this is critical, is the cost


      18        estimate.  There is a September 15th, 2009


      19        letter from Arthur S. Anderson & Son that tells


      20        you how much it's going to cost.  It breaks it


      21        down.


      22             The AC, 5- to $6,000.  Electrical, 3- to


      23        $4,000.  Plumbing, 1- to 2,000.  Roof, this


      24        major problem, 5- to $7,000.  As well as some


      25        cosmetic enhancements, 1- to 3,000.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             If you take the highest estimate, $22,000.


       2        If you take it at the lowest estimate, $15,000.


       3        After 30 -- 40 years of ownership, he's being


       4        expected to spend 15- to 22,000 to maintain a


       5        house.  That's what he's using as justification


       6        to tear it down, that is not economic hardship.


       7             So, in conclusion, the reasons he gives for


       8        demolition is because he doesn't want to be a


       9        landlord.  He doesn't want to maintain it


      10        anymore.  He doesn't want to pay to reverse all


      11        of the things that he himself did.  And he


      12        doesn't want to pay taxes.  He wants to reduce


      13        his tax burden.  In these economic times, I


      14        don't think this council should be using this as


      15        a basis to reduce the amount of taxes that


      16        people are paying.


      17             The question, then, is -- the last question


      18        is, why doesn't he sell it?  If those are his


      19        concerns, why doesn't he sell it?  He wants to


      20        keep it for his grandkids kids, put the money in


      21        a trust, put it in a CD.  Save that money for


      22        his grandkids.  This is not a good reason to


      23        tear it down.


      24             Thank you.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Teal, could you go





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        over -- I believe we have three options -- so


       2        the committee members can understand what our


       3        options are.


       4             MR. TEAL:  Sure.


       5             The options that are allowed for this body


       6        would be to either uphold the appeal -- in other


       7        words, it would overturn the denial of the


       8        demolition, which will allow him to tear it


       9        down.  You can deny the appeal, which would


      10        support the Historic Preservation Commission's


      11        decision to deny the demolition.


      12             You can modify -- basically you can amend


      13        it.  In other words, approve it with conditions,


      14        which I'm not sure is an option in this case


      15        because it's kind of all or nothing.  Or you can


      16        refer the matter back to the commission with


      17        specific directions as to what other avenues


      18        that you think that they should explore.


      19             It seems like it's pretty clear on its


      20        face.  It's either approve the demolition or


      21        don't approve the demolition.  I think that's


      22        the only two options, but technically you do


      23        have the four.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      25             Anyone have questions for Mr. Teal?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Mr. Redman.


       2             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


       3             Mr. Teal, the City has a department that


       4        goes out and looks at houses to determine


       5        whether or not they are structurally sound to


       6        live in, to stand and be repaired.  Does this


       7        department -- have they gone out and looked at


       8        this house?  Have they been asked to?  Or what


       9        is your answer to that?


      10             MR. TEAL:  I believe you're referring to


      11        our Property Safety Division.  Actually, it's


      12        Municipal Code Compliance now.  They inspect


      13        properties to determine structural soundness to


      14        ascertain whether those buildings represent a


      15        danger to the community.


      16             My understanding, that department has not


      17        looked at this building at all, either


      18        because -- well, first of all, because they


      19        haven't either been alerted to it as it being a


      20        problem or they haven't otherwise been called in


      21        to look at it.


      22             The only City individual that has gone out


      23        and looked at it is Joel McEachin from our


      24        historic preservation office, and it's part of


      25        his job routinely to go and -- he wrote the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        report on it.  It's his job to go inspect these


       2        types of properties, both in Springfield and


       3        Riverside Avondale, to evaluate the soundness of


       4        the structure itself.


       5             And I believe he testified before the


       6        Historic Preservation Commission that the


       7        building itself, the structure itself was in


       8        good and sound condition.


       9             MR. REDMAN:  I believe the only way I could


      10        support destruction of the house, tearing it


      11        down, would be that our department go out and


      12        suggest that that would be the only solution.


      13             Thank you.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Redman.


      15             Mr. Davis.


      16             MR. DAVIS:  Yes, I have some questions


      17        along the same line as Mr. Redman.


      18             The cosmetic or system issues don't hold


      19        water with me, and I -- what really is my


      20        deciding factor on this is if -- several of


      21        these paragraphs concern me in the Doyle Kelly


      22        letter.


      23             Is Mr. McEachin an engineer?


      24             Mr. McEachin, are you an engineer?


      25             MR. McEACHIN:  No, I'm not an engineer.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. DAVIS:  Okay.  I have real concern as


       2        to why we have not had one of our engineers go


       3        out and look at this piece of property prior to


       4        this time frame.  To me, that's ridiculous.


       5             I do have someone who has put their license


       6        on the line saying that this system -- the roof


       7        system -- the last paragraph in the first page


       8        of Mr. Kelly's letter saying that this is a --


       9        that the walls are now bowing due to the dead


      10        load of the roof.  These members are not


      11        anchored to the walls with capacity to resist


      12        the required uplift produced by the winds.


      13             As many of you know, we did have new wind


      14        codes going into effect a couple of years ago,


      15        and if they -- if someone went in and replaced


      16        the systems, would they have to bring the wind


      17        loads up to code?


      18             MR. TEAL:  Through the Chair to


      19        Councilmember Davis, in looking at Mr. Kelly's


      20        letter -- I had some calls in to Tom Goldsbury


      21        ad Jim Shock on this, but he's -- basically he's


      22        referring to the new construction portion of the


      23        building code when he references these windows.


      24             MR. DAVIS:  Right.


      25             MR. TEAL:  There is a separate section that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        deals with existing structures.  And there's


       2        also some allowances for historic structures as


       3        far as strict compliance of the building code.


       4        There's no requirement -- there's no strict


       5        requirement to bring a structure such as this up


       6        to the current state of the building code unless


       7        you are going to be doing a major systems


       8        overhaul.


       9             What they're proposing is a reroof, and


      10        they're not -- there's been no demonstration


      11        that there's a requirement to replace the entire


      12        roofing structure.


      13             MR. DAVIS:  I'm just disappointed,


      14        Mr. Chairman, that we've had a bunch of people


      15        do a drive-by and look at this cosmetically what


      16        could happen and how you could fix it and we


      17        have not had our own, I guess, independent City


      18        engineer go out there and get into the


      19        nitty-gritty on this, and then they expect us to


      20        make a decision.


      21             Because my whole decision rests on the


      22        structural integrity of the building.  And I


      23        don't know what to tell you about that,


      24        Mr. Chairman, but that's where I land.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, that's certainly one





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of our options to think about.


       2             But right now, any other questions for


       3        Mr. Teal?  And then I'm going to go back to


       4        Mr. Harden.  He has remaining time to rebut any


       5        of the arguments.


       6             Mr. Harden.


       7             (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  And considering we had


       9        additional speakers, you have up to 30 minutes,


      10        I guess.


      11             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (Inaudible.)


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Folks, we had an additional


      13        eight speakers.  I thought I was only going to


      14        have 15 minutes on each side --


      15             MR. HARDEN:  If it makes you feel any


      16        better, I'm not going to take 30 minutes.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  So what I'm saying here is


      18        you guys had about 30 minutes and we're trying


      19        to divide it up evenly.  I'm trying to say that


      20        with a sense of humor, though.


      21             I don't think Mr. Harden is going to speak


      22        for 30 minutes.


      23             MR. HARDEN:  Yeah, I don't intend to.


      24             Let me start with, I -- every time Mr. Wood


      25        gets up here, he pokes me in the eye and makes





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        my stomach hurt, but I -- he might be an expert


       2        on historical matters.  I'm an expert on


       3        high-priced lawyers, so . . .


       4             The other thing -- and I want to kind of --


       5        we want you to follow the criteria.  There's a


       6        suggestion that we're trying to skirt the


       7        criteria.  If you'll note, my entire


       8        presentation was asking you to follow those


       9        criteria.  That's what I want you to do.


      10             The fact that 81 percent of the folks voted


      11        to do this is not one of the criteria.  That


      12        particular -- this is a quote from Winston


      13        Churchill I'm always reminded of when people


      14        talk about the majority.  It's the difference


      15        between democracy and liberty.  Democracy is two


      16        wolves and a lamb voting on what they're going


      17        to eat for lunch.  Liberty is a well-heeled lamb


      18        contesting the vote.


      19             We're entitled to come here and contest the


      20        vote and ask you to follow the criteria, and


      21        that's all we're asking you to do.  We're not


      22        asking you to skirt any of your responsibility.


      23             The Historic Preservation Commission is not


      24        indeed the expert as suggested.  You are the


      25        expert.  This is a de novo hearing where you're





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        the one to consider the evidence, not what


       2        something might be, but what the evidence is in


       3        front of you today and how that evidence goes to


       4        the criteria.


       5             Again, Ms. Ehas started that -- about the


       6        vote.  But, again, that's not one of the


       7        criteria.  What the median sales value is in


       8        that area is not one of the criteria.


       9             Again, she suggested and she's sticking


      10        with her story that it's in good condition.  I


      11        would ask you to look at the photographs and the


      12        report.  I don't think that -- that's accurate.


      13             Again, the vote in 1998 was 25 years after


      14        Mr. Lamb -- I guess the well-heeled lamb fits


      15        better here than most places.  But, you know,


      16        it's 25 years after he -- after he bought the


      17        property.


      18             Mr. Love went through the first three


      19        criteria.  His three explanations are totally at


      20        odds with Mr. McEachin's report.  He says it's


      21        impossible to replace it with something


      22        similar.  Mr. McEachin's report says, no, it's


      23        not impossible to replace it.  So his --


      24        Mr. Love's explanation is at odds with


      25        Mr. McEachin's.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Mr. Love's explanation is at odds with


       2        Mr. McEachin on the fourth criteria.  Mr. Love


       3        said it is, in fact, the last one in the region


       4        or area or whatever used.  If you read


       5        Mr. McEachin's report, he says no, it is not the


       6        last one.  It's a common use in the area.


       7             So they're coming up and arguing the


       8        report.  But I ask you to look at the Planning


       9        Department report, which on -- by my count,


      10        seven of the criteria shows that the criteria


      11        have been met.


      12             The $22,000 does not go into -- does not


      13        take into account the structural criteria.  Now,


      14        Jason went through the 22,000.  Those are all


      15        interior.  In all due respect, you've got a


      16        report from a structural engineer, and I don't


      17        think anybody can say any better than Mr. Davis


      18        said.  This guy put his license on the line.


      19        Let me read this.  It's a simple statement.


      20             "Trying to strengthen the existing framing


      21        system to support updated loading would far


      22        exceed the cost of complete replacement."


      23             Now, if you think that Mr. Lamb has a house


      24        worth $300,000 that he could sell and that he


      25        wants to tear that $300,000 to the ground so he





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        can have an empty lot and he -- that he's doing


       2        that for no good reason, I think you should


       3        think again.  He's doing it because he's gotten


       4        reports from engineers who have said to make


       5        this house safe, to meet the wind loads, to make


       6        it structurally sound, it's going to cost more


       7        than building a new house.  That is the evidence


       8        you have before you today.


       9             I don't know what somebody from


      10        Mr. Goldsbury's office would say.  That's not


      11        who we have to go out to do it.  We had a


      12        structural engineer come out and look at it and


      13        he rendered this opinion in August.  So you have


      14        September, October, November, December -- four


      15        months.  If somebody disagreed with it, they


      16        could go out and look at it.


      17             But the fact of the matter is, that $22,000


      18        doesn't include the cost of the structural fix


      19        on the property.  So I would -- in all due


      20        respect, Mr. Love's statements on the three


      21        criteria he dealt with are opposite of what


      22        Mr. McEachin says.


      23             With regard to the criteria of ---- that


      24        Mister --  Kevin, I'm sorry, I didn't get your


      25        last name -- but talked about -- he talked about





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that there's -- there's just nothing in the


       2        record indicating there's any chance of


       3        collapse.  That's the whole purpose of this


       4        report is that we have wind load criteria.  They


       5        updated them -- as Mr. Davis indicated, recently


       6        updated them for a reason because we get


       7        windstorms in this area.


       8             Those criteria are in effect.  If they


       9        weren't -- if they didn't have a valid reason,


      10        the City wouldn't have put them into effect.


      11        But the fact of the matter is there is, in fact,


      12        a likelihood of collapse if you don't meet the


      13        wind load requirements, and that's explained in


      14        great detail in Mr. Kelly's report.


      15             The feasible alternative that the gentleman


      16        suggested to meet criteria number 7 is to do the


      17        repairs.  Those repairs -- and Jason said


      18        there's nothing in the report about the cost.


      19        I'll read it one more time.  "Trying to


      20        strengthen the existing framing system to


      21        support updated loading would far exceed the


      22        cost of complete replacement."  So that's in


      23        addition to the 22,000.  That doesn't include it


      24        in the $22,000 number.


      25             Ms. Mansfield indicated -- and, again, her





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        comments with regard to criteria 9 are at odds


       2        with Mr. McEachin.  Mr. McEachin says, well,


       3        there's enough historic value in there, but


       4        doesn't say how much.


       5             The reason I went through -- and Jason was


       6        correct, explaining the outside, those are


       7        cosmetic.  But that was explaining it's not the


       8        same house that was built in 1920.  It has cedar


       9        shake shingles on the side.  That's not the


      10        original house.  It has a different roof.  The


      11        windows are the same.  That explanation wasn't


      12        that it's not cosmetic.  What it is is it


      13        doesn't look like it looked in 1920, and that


      14        was the purpose of that.


      15             The final thing Ms. Mansfield said, it is


      16        not an economic hardship to do the repairs.


      17             The report that Mr. Kelly said is it cost


      18        more to do just that one repair than it would


      19        cost to build a new house.  And I do believe, in


      20        fact, that that is an economic hardship.


      21             We're not asking you to invalidate the


      22        ordinance.  This ordinance allows for us to come


      23        to the LUZ Committee, present evidence to you,


      24        ask you to compare that evidence to the


      25        criteria, and see if we meet the criteria.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             As indicated, it's difficult to do because


       2        they're rarely granted, but you rarely have a


       3        situation where the structural stability of the


       4        property is compromised as explained in


       5        Mr. Kelly's report.  So I'm not asking you to


       6        willy-nilly allow demolition permits.  I'm


       7        asking you to do it when you meet the criteria


       8        and when the economics of the matter say that


       9        it's more expensive to repair it than build a


      10        new house.  I believe that, in fact, is an


      11        economic hardship.


      12             Now, I tried to follow Carmen's math.  What


      13        she said is in 1970 Mr. Lamb took $9,500 and


      14        bought a house.  Now, if you had taken that


      15        $9,500 in 1970 and put it in the stock market,


      16        or you -- to just put it in a 4 percent bond,


      17        you'd have a lot more money than the house is


      18        worth now.  So the time value of the money is


      19        what you're dealing with on economic -- she says


      20        that it's now valued at $300,000.


      21             What person in their right mind, if they


      22        had something worth $300,000, would hire


      23        somebody to come up here and ask -- beg you to


      24        let them tear it down.  The reason we're doing


      25        it is because that value is not there.  The





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        structural integrity of the property is such


       2        that we don't have a $300,000 piece of --


       3        structure there.  It's a structure that would


       4        cost more to put back in structural integrity


       5        than it would be to build a new property on


       6        there.


       7             She suggests that the experience of


       8        Mister -- she says what did we know about the


       9        experience of Mr. Burrows and Mr. Kelly.  Well,


      10        their resumes are attached.  But in all due


      11        respect, if they had some slight on their


      12        experience, they should come up here and tell


      13        you.  You're supposed to base your opinions and


      14        determinations on the evidence before you, and


      15        the evidence before you is set forth in their


      16        resumes.


      17             One of them is a certified engineer, the


      18        other is a State-certified building contractor.


      19        Those are difficult licenses to maintain, and I


      20        would respectfully suggest that they do, in


      21        fact, have experiences that you should


      22        consider.


      23             The other folks that spoke did not speak to


      24        the criteria, and I would ask you to keep


      25        focused on that criteria.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I think the criteria show that there is an


       2        economics hardship, that shows that there are --


       3        it is -- that this is not the last structure in


       4        the area, that there are difficulties that


       5        would -- that would allow you to vote for the


       6        demolition permit.


       7             The intention, obviously, is to put a lot


       8        there and then ultimately build a house at that


       9        location rather than spend more than the cost of


      10        a new house now to bring back the structure


      11        on -- on the thing.


      12             I'm -- when I sit down, I know that Michael


      13        is going to talk, and so I'm going to have to


      14        address -- I know that he has some built-in


      15        thoughts about the district, and I know that he


      16        wants -- as a former president of RAP wants to


      17        go through those matters, but I would


      18        respectfully request that in considering his


      19        comments that you consider what the criteria


      20        are, what the evidence is before you.  That's


      21        the issue, is the evidence as it meets those


      22        criteria, and I would ask you to stay focused on


      23        that issue.


      24             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Mr. Davis, did you have a question, or are


       2        you still on from last time?


       3             MR. DAVIS:  I'm going to wait until I hear


       4        from Councilman Corrigan.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Let's hear from


       6        Mr. Corrigan first and then we'll go around.


       7             MR. CORRIGAN:  I think he had a question


       8        for Mr. Harden.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Oh, okay.  You had a


      10        question for Mr. Harden.


      11             I'm sorry.  Go ahead, Mr. Joost.


      12             MR. JOOST:  Mr. Harden, I was just curious,


      13        through the Chair, what is the actual cost of


      14        demolition?


      15             MR. HARDEN:  The actual cost of demolition,


      16        you know, I don't know, but it's -- it's


      17        something less than probably ten grand.


      18             MR. DAVIS:  Eight thousand.


      19             MR. HARDEN:  Pardon me?


      20             MR. JOOST:  Eight thousand.


      21             MR. HARDEN:  Yeah.


      22             MR. JOOST:  Thank you.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a question for


      24        Mr. Harden.


      25             Through all this, has your client offered





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        any plan to rebuild anything on the property or


       2        is this only to leave it vacant?


       3             MR. HARDEN:  Well, you know, what happened


       4        was -- I wasn't at the Historic Preservation


       5        Commission.  Mr. Lamb was there by himself with


       6        his contractor.


       7             I've talked to him since then.  We're


       8        perfectly willing to agree to, you know, the


       9        design criteria.  I say perfectly.  Do


      10        graciously what we have to do anyway about what


      11        you're going to rebuild in the area.  That's


      12        subject to criteria and certainly we'll comply


      13        with those.  If that is a condition of the


      14        demolition permit, we would understand that.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.


      16             Mr. Corrigan.


      17             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      18             MR. HARDEN:  Michael, is this a question or


      19        can I sit down?


      20             MR. CORRIGAN:  No.  You can sit down.


      21        Thank you.


      22             Before I start, let me thank the committee


      23        for their patience in hearing this.  Obviously,


      24        there's passion on all sides.  And that's not


      25        surprising, knowing the area that we all know.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             I'll start by saying that days like today


       2        are days I hate being an elected official.  My


       3        problem today is that I know every single person


       4        that's involved in this.  I know the applicant.


       5        I mean, all these people I consider friends, the


       6        applicant, the agent.  Everybody that came and


       7        spoke in opposition to it, I know them all


       8        personally, so it stinks to have this job


       9        today.  I hate it.  I just wish I could end my


      10        term, you know, a year and a half early and I


      11        wouldn't have to go through this.


      12             I'll tell you, I had breakfast -- as I


      13        mentioned earlier in ex-parte declaration, I had


      14        breakfast with Mr. and Ms. Lamb at the Fox, a


      15        restaurant I frequently go to, and -- as you


      16        probably all know -- and discussed this.  They


      17        really were at a loss for what was going on and


      18        what they needed to do and were gaining


      19        understanding and have learned a lot in the


      20        process, and I appreciate their willingness to


      21        try to understand that process.


      22             Since I've been on the council, I've


      23        probably voted on about 5,000 ordinances and


      24        resolutions since I've been here, and I haven't


      25        hung any of those on my wall.  And Mr. Harden





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        touched on this, there is one resolution -- one


       2        ordinance hanging on my wall and it's 2007-1029,


       3        which was the creation of Riverside Avondale


       4        local historic district which hangs there


       5        because I was chairman when the district was


       6        established.


       7             So, obviously, I have a passion for this,


       8        but I'm not going to ask you to vote based on


       9        passion today.  I want you to vote on the


      10        criteria.  As Mr. Harden said, I think that's


      11        the most important thing to do.


      12             You know, it's -- there's been a lot of


      13        discussion about the cost of renovation and


      14        everything else.  And I live in a historic


      15        home.  I bought it, and I had to do everything


      16        that these engineers are saying they have to do


      17        as far as upgrading it.  It was vacant for


      18        25 years and had to go in and do the mechanical


      19        and electrical and everything that's been -- the


      20        siding, everything that's been listed here


      21        today.  So I'm intimately knowledgeable of the


      22        challenges that Mr. Lamb saw, but that's not a


      23        reason to either grant or deny this application.


      24             You're asked today to look at a property


      25        that is in need of repair.  It's interesting





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        that it's not too dissimilar from an occurrence


       2        that Mr. Davis and I had on that Builders Care


       3        project.  We went out to a community center that


       4        we've allocated money to and Mr. Davis and I


       5        spent the Saturday on top of a building tearing


       6        off the shingles and replacing them.  And thanks


       7        to the generosity of Builders Care, they turned


       8        around and added on to the back of that


       9        community center and they took an older


      10        building -- not an historic building, but an


      11        older building and renovated it at more expense


      12        than it would have cost to tear it down and


      13        start from scratch and add on to the back of it.


      14             I mention that because I don't think we


      15        went in and did structural engineers and wind


      16        tests and everything else on the roof that we


      17        repaired.  It was there and it met code when it


      18        was built and it stayed there.


      19             The new part we added on had to meet code,


      20        and I think that's important.  In this


      21        conversation there's been a lot of talk about --


      22        about this letter from Mr. Kelly, about the


      23        replacement, of strengthening the roof to meet


      24        standards.  That is if you're going to try to


      25        meet the wind standards of the day.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             And if he was going to -- if he was going


       2        to tear the roof off and start over, it would


       3        have to meet wind standards.  If he was going to


       4        add on to the residence, any addition he put on


       5        there would have to meet these current wind


       6        standards.


       7             I do question on that particular letter


       8        that's been referenced a number of times from


       9        Mr. Kelly, the top paragraph on page 2, the way


      10        I read it and read it before getting here today


      11        is that that is in relation to the roof, not the


      12        entire building.  They start talking about the


      13        walls after that paragraph.


      14             So what they're saying is that the cost to


      15        structurally sound that roof to today's wind


      16        standards would be more than the cost of


      17        replacing the entire roof.  That is a true


      18        statement because you can now buy engineered


      19        roof trusses that are significantly less


      20        expensive than it would cost to replace a roof.


      21        So that statement is correct, but I don't


      22        believe they're talking about the entire


      23        structure.


      24             And I haven't talked to Mr. Kelly about it,


      25        but I'm pretty sure he was referencing just the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        roof in that particular paragraph because the


       2        walls talked about it later.


       3             But most of what you need to consider today


       4        can be on the one sheet of paper that Mr. Harden


       5        is giving you that had the highlighted -- yellow


       6        highlighted paragraph in it, and that's -- I


       7        want to stop for just a second and talk about


       8        that.


       9             That's probably been the biggest


      10        disappointment to me in this entire process.


      11        The applicant here was strictly doing something


      12        that he wanted to do with his personal


      13        property.  And the fact that it got personal,


      14        the fact it was picked up in the media, not so


      15        much in the Riverside Avondale community news


      16        but in another media in -- I think negative


      17        things were said about the owner that I consider


      18        negative, and I don't appreciate that.  This is


      19        never supposed to be about a person.  It's


      20        supposed to be about an historic piece of


      21        property, and I apologize to them.


      22             I also apologize that they weren't given


      23        the full instructions of what they needed to do


      24        on the front side.  It's been documented today


      25        that there was a garage in the back that was





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        torn down some -- during the past year or so.


       2             At that point, the City department should


       3        have told that owner, hey, you can't tear this


       4        down.  You have to get a COA to tear this down,


       5        a certificate of appropriateness to tear it


       6        down.  And if you want to do anything else, you


       7        have to get a COA to tear down the house too


       8        because I'm sure when the company -- the


       9        documentation says Realco came out, they were


      10        given -- they were asked to give a price and


      11        tear down the garage and tear down the house.


      12             They have -- I think have a responsibility


      13        to tell the owner, the homeowner, hey, you're in


      14        a historic district.  You're going to have to


      15        get a COA.  So I'm a little disappointed in the


      16        demolition company and I'm real disappointed if


      17        a City department didn't let the owner know


      18        that.


      19             But we'll go back to the criteria which are


      20        on that single page I just pointed out to you.


      21        There's ten criteria.


      22             It's interesting, you listen to the agent


      23        for the applicant talk, and demolition meets all


      24        those requirements.  You listen to the


      25        preservation organization, it doesn't meet any





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        of the requirements.  Well, folks, you can't


       2        listen to either one of them, to be honest with


       3        you.  They're both passionate for what they're


       4        working for.  What you really have to go to is


       5        the professionals.  And the professionals that


       6        we count -- we counted on earlier in the


       7        Racetrac bill we did, that's our Planning


       8        Department staff.  They are the professionals


       9        that we rely on to get the evidence that we use


      10        to make this decision.


      11             I've gone back, I've looked at the report.


      12        It should be in your appeal packet that you have


      13        today.  And if you review them, Mr. Harden is


      14        correct, seven out of ten things are there, but


      15        it's seven out of ten of the criteria says the


      16        building should not be torn down, and that's


      17        really -- I come tonight to talk on that


      18        aspect.


      19             If you look at the report and read in


      20        criteria 1, it does not meet that criteria.  And


      21        criteria 3, it does not meet the criteria.  And


      22        criteria 4, it doesn't meet it.  Those are the


      23        three standards according to the professionals


      24        at our Planning Department that this does not


      25        meet.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             So that means that seven out of ten of the


       2        Planning Department -- the professionals


       3        recommend that you deny the demolition, that it


       4        not be granted.  So I think you have to do it


       5        based on the evidence.


       6             There is a lot of passion here.  I probably


       7        will lose a friend tonight because of my


       8        position I have to take here, but I was elected


       9        to represent the people.  I intimately know the


      10        ordinance that was passed by this council back


      11        in 2007.  I mean 1997.  Excuse me.  I said 2007


      12        earlier.  1997.  And we have to support that.


      13             We made the rules.  It wasn't done in the


      14        shade of darkness.  It was done -- I had


      15        probably 10 to 12 community meetings during that


      16        approval of this Jacksonville -- of the


      17        Riverside Avondale local historic designation.


      18        We had compromises that were done.  The process


      19        we used to get the designation that you're


      20        considering today was done very similar to the


      21        way the consolidated government of Jacksonville


      22        was established.


      23             And at the point of approving that,


      24        Riverside Avondale Preservation gave up their


      25        ability to control what happened and went to the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        professionals, our professionals in the City


       2        staff, the Historic Preservation Commission, the


       3        Planning Commission, and the City Council.


       4             So we're all supposed to look at the


       5        criteria.  Seven out of ten of these criteria


       6        say the house should be saved and should not be


       7        torn down, so I don't really have an option on


       8        this decision.


       9             So what I'm asking the committee to do is


      10        to recommend the denial of the appeal and allow


      11        the structure to remain.


      12             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, sir.


      14             Mr. Redman.


      15             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      16             The third option, could that option be that


      17        we do nothing without the -- Mr. Goldsbury's


      18        department making their decision whether or not


      19        this building is structurally sound enough to do


      20        something with?  Could that be our third


      21        option?  Could we defer this until we get that


      22        option or would it weigh strictly on the City's


      23        decision?


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Teal or Mr. Reingold.


      25             MR. REINGOLD:  To the committee, I mean, I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        guess one of your other options would be to


       2        defer the item and request more information to


       3        that.


       4             I'm just trying to look through the code


       5        criteria and try to figure out which one of the


       6        criteria that that issue really goes to, and I


       7        guess it goes to the difficulty or impossibly of


       8        saving the building or structure from collapse,


       9        number 6.


      10             But, again, I mean, if you feel you don't


      11        have all the information you need, you can


      12        certainly request a deferral.


      13             MR. REDMAN:  I just feel like that we need


      14        the City, Mr. Goldsbury's department, to give us


      15        their opinion on whether or not this building is


      16        structurally sound enough to survive.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  I think Mr. Corrigan wanted


      18        to speak to that.


      19             Go ahead, sir.


      20             MR. CORRIGAN:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      21             Through the chairman to Councilman Redman,


      22        good point.  I do caution the committee on


      23        relying on that.  Two reasons.  One is -- I


      24        don't know if Mr. Teal or Mr. McEachin --


      25             Historic buildings don't have to meet





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        current building code.  In other words, if we


       2        send out our building inspectors, they're going


       3        to look at current building code.  Historic


       4        buildings don't have to meet current building


       5        code, so they're going to come back and say it


       6        doesn't meet current building code.


       7             The caution I give you is if they -- if


       8        that does come back and this committee says it


       9        doesn't didn't meet code, you can tear it down.


      10        Then anybody that wants to tear down anything is


      11        going to go in with a sledgehammer and knock


      12        down enough stuff to make it not meet current


      13        code, and then they're going to be torn down.


      14             So if you want to eliminate every -- if you


      15        want to always destroy a historic building when


      16        it's desired, then you just knock out some beams


      17        and make it not meet code, and then it's going


      18        to be torn down for sure.  So I don't think


      19        deferring for that --


      20             If the property is sold, there will be an


      21        inspection and they'll tell them that it doesn't


      22        meet code, and then he needs to do the structure


      23        changes.  I don't think we need to use City


      24        resources to help a property owner determine if


      25        this building meets engineering standards.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good point, Mr. Corrigan.


       2             Mr. Davis.


       3             MR. DAVIS:  I guess my whole issue,


       4        Councilman Corrigan, is the soundness of the


       5        building, and I know that -- before, that there


       6        was a decision made to allow the razing of the


       7        building because it was not sound.


       8             With this letter, it is positioned that


       9        this building is unsound.  That's the way I read


      10        the letter.  What I would like to be able to


      11        make a better decision or a better informed


      12        decision would be to have our engineers go out


      13        and say, hey, it's unsound or it is a sound


      14        building.


      15             Just because someone has lived in it does


      16        not mean it is sound.  You and I have seen that


      17        several times on Builders Care projects.  I


      18        guess what I would say is -- and this may be a


      19        question to the attorney.  If we defer this for


      20        a report from our -- one of our structural


      21        engineers, would we have to go through this


      22        process again?


      23             And I don't know if we can -- or if we can


      24        just put it on the table, get the report, and


      25        then make the decision without having to go





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        through this again.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Good question.


       3             Do we have to go back to the public


       4        hearings again?


       5             MR. REINGOLD:  The one thing I would


       6        recommend if we did that deferral, get the


       7        additional information, would certainly --


       8        you've heard a lot of testimony about all the


       9        other issues.  Maybe just limit testimony


      10        relevant to the specific issue that is being


      11        requested today such that either RAP, Mr. Teal,


      12        or Mr. Harden would have the ability to respond


      13        to whatever Mr. Goldsbury's or Mr. Schock's


      14        comments are and to that issue and not reiterate


      15        what was hashed out today.


      16             MR. DAVIS:  I would feel more comfortable


      17        making a decision after I've heard that because


      18        reading this the way it does, talking about the


      19        loading and, you know, anchor bolts -- I mean,


      20        there's so many things that go into a roof in


      21        holding the roof down when high winds come


      22        instead of having it pop off.  It's much more


      23        than frames at the top of the structure.  You've


      24        got to -- there's -- and then we've got the


      25        question of does that even apply.  I just need





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        more information.  And, I'm sorry, I didn't get


       2        it tonight.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Davis.


       4             I want to say something and I've got


       5        Mr. Joost on queue.


       6             For me, one of the issues is what's going


       7        to happen to the property and in the near


       8        future.  And I understand from Mr. Harden that


       9        there is or may be some sort of plan for


      10        building on the property in the near term.


      11             I would like to know that the property


      12        isn't just going to be torn down and sit as a


      13        vacant lot.  But I don't have any solid plan,


      14        someone coming to me saying that the plan for


      15        this property is within the next two years to


      16        have a home that meets all the criteria of the


      17        Historic Preservation Commission.  I don't have


      18        that.  I would like to.


      19             Mr. Joost.


      20             MR. JOOST:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


      21             I'm going to go along much in the line of


      22        Councilman Davis and Redman.  My only question


      23        would be -- and I think Councilman Davis may


      24        have touched on it somewhat.  Obviously -- or I


      25        guess through Mr. Teal my question would be, are





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        all historical houses in compliance right now


       2        with the current 119-mile-an-hour standard?


       3             MR. TEAL:  That would be a resounding no.


       4             MR. JOOST:  Okay.  So my next question


       5        would be as to when we're determining, quote,


       6        soundness as to what criteria we're measuring


       7        against.  Is it -- you know, obviously it's not


       8        going to be the 119-mile-an-hour standard.  So


       9        what marching orders or instructions do we give


      10        our engineer to go out to look at the house?


      11        Because obviously he said, well, in


      12        consideration to the 119-mile-an-hour structure,


      13        no, it would fail.  So what -- you know, what is


      14        that criteria?


      15             MR. TEAL:  Through the Chair to Councilman


      16        Joost, what I would recommend would be to give


      17        our structural engineer, whether that be Leslie


      18        Davidson or somebody else that we have on staff,


      19        a copy of Mr. Kelly's letter.  And send her out


      20        there and say, is this structure structurally


      21        sound?


      22             She's the one that can determine whether or


      23        not the 119-mile-an-hour wind load is going to


      24        be required, you know, or whether or not there's


      25        bowing going on as he's alleging in his letter.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             That would be my recommendation.  Not give


       2        her any other direction than to say, is it


       3        structurally sound based upon the information


       4        contained in this letter and a personal


       5        inspection of the property?


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Reingold, do you want to


       7        say something?


       8             MR. REINGOLD:  Yeah.  I'm just kind of


       9        looking at the code here.  Under section 307.205


      10        of the city -- of our ordinance code, it talks


      11        about the options for our council.  And one, as


      12        Mr. Teal talked about earlier, you can confirm,


      13        you can reverse, you can modify.


      14             And the fourth one -- and the question just


      15        goes to sort of who do you want to make this


      16        decision -- is whether you want to refer the


      17        matter back to the commission with specific


      18        instructions for further action.


      19             And so the thought is, do you guys sort of


      20        want to make that decision or did you want to


      21        defer it -- refer that decision back to JHPC to


      22        say, look, you didn't consider the structural


      23        issues that we're contemplating here and we


      24        recommend you do so in making a final decision.


      25        I don't care either way.  I'm just throwing that





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        out at the committee.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well -- but Mr. McEachin did


       3        go up there and check out the structural


       4        soundness of it.  And he's the inspector on


       5        behalf of the Historic Commission, right?  Is


       6        that true?


       7             MR. TEAL:  He does perform the role of


       8        going out there and makes a visual inspection.


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  But he's not an engineer.


      10             MR. TEAL:  He states he's not an engineer,


      11        correct.


      12             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.


      13             MR. DAVIS:  Mr. Chair.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes, sir, Mr. Davis.


      15             MR. DAVIS:  It's coming back to us anyway.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yeah, it is.


      17             MR. DAVIS:  Might as well just take -- cut


      18        out the middleman and let's just -- that's what


      19        we were all hired to do is make decisions, so


      20        let's just do it.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Redman.


      22             MR. REDMAN:  Thank you.


      23             My main concern when you talk about sagging


      24        of beams and when we send somebody out there to


      25        look at the structure to see if it fits the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        safety of most of the homes in the district,


       2        whether you could add some other beams --


       3        Mr. Davis would know much more about this than


       4        me, whether something could be added to make it


       5        safe or -- rather than redo a whole new roof or


       6        something that would be basically starting all


       7        over again.


       8             So if we had, you know, orders to the City


       9        engineer to go out and meet the standards of the


      10        other older homes in the neighborhood -- which


      11        I'm sure that they know this, what it would be,


      12        then we could feel -- I think we could feel that


      13        it would be safe.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Corrigan, did you want


      15        to jump in?


      16             MR. CORRIGAN:  Yes, thank you,


      17        Mr. Chairman.


      18             Through the Chair to the committee, I'm


      19        fine getting the answers.  My question is


      20        really -- I still think -- my concern is I think


      21        that primarily Mr. Goldsbury's group is going to


      22        go up and look at today's standard.  Is it


      23        better -- proper or better for us to have our


      24        Property Safety Division be the one to lead


      25        that?  I don't know if they have engineers





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        there.


       2             But they're the ones that are charged with


       3        the city to make sure that the properties are


       4        safe.  They may go and look and say, this is


       5        imminent -- I mean, I had one on Post Street and


       6        they called me up on a Friday afternoon and


       7        said, We just saw a house that looks like it's


       8        going to fall down.  We can't leave it over the


       9        weekend.  We're tearing it down today, and tore


      10        it down because it was an unsafe structure.


      11             So I think if we defer it, that probably


      12        having our Property Safety people go out and


      13        consult with our engineers and the Building


      14        Department would be probably a better avenue to


      15        go because they're going to look at safety


      16        versus meeting current wind standards.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Teal, is that what's


      18        meant by "structurally sound"?  Is that the


      19        standard that our Property Safety folks would


      20        use, "structurally sound"?


      21             MR. TEAL:  It is.


      22             And just to Councilmember Corrigan, they


      23        use the same people we're talking about.  And


      24        they'll go out and they'll make a


      25        determination -- they'll do an eyeball.  And to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        them, they're experienced enough to recognize


       2        it.  But before they make that call, they'll


       3        call in a structural engineer in order to put


       4        the license on the line, if you will, in order


       5        to make sure that it really is in that


       6        condition.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, the majority of the


       8        committee seems to feels like it would be best


       9        for us to defer this and get some more


      10        information, so I'm going to do that.


      11             I'm going to defer this, and we want to,


      12        through our Planning Department, I guess, ask


      13        that we would have somebody from Property Safety


      14        inspect and then we can bring it back to this


      15        committee.


      16             Mr. Reingold.


      17             MR. REINGOLD:  I would just recommend, if


      18        you close the public hearing -- which I think


      19        may have happened -- that you just reopen it to


      20        make sure that we don't have to readvertise.


      21        And then we'll keep the issue specifically to


      22        just the issue that we're discussing here, which


      23        is the structural soundness of the building.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Excellent.


      25             I'll close the public hearing --





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. HARDEN:  Mr. Chairman --


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  -- continue the public


       3        hearing.


       4             MR. HARDEN:  -- can you ask him one more


       5        quick -- just so we've got the rules of


       6        engagement.  This is a quasi-judicial function.


       7        You're supposed to do the -- and I know that


       8        some people have been contacting council


       9        members.  I think it would be fair to say that


      10        there shouldn't be any contact with members of


      11        the quasi-judicial body pending that -- the next


      12        hearing.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Reingold, do you want to


      14        speak to that?


      15             MR. REINGOLD:  Are you saying that there


      16        can't be any ex-parte communications between now


      17        and the next meeting?


      18             MR. HARDEN:  Yes.


      19             MR. REINGOLD:  Because they could cure that


      20        through just making sure that they declare those


      21        at the next meeting.


      22             MR. HARDEN:  Except you're trying to limit


      23        it to a single issue, and you don't know what


      24        everybody is going to talk about.


      25             You know, I obviously have a difference of





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        opinion on what the ex-parte requirements are


       2        here, but that -- just from here forward, we're


       3        in the middle of a trial, if you will, and


       4        talking to the judge during that time I think


       5        would be inappropriate.


       6             But I just ask -- I was going to ask you to


       7        ask Mr. Reingold that question, so . . .


       8             MR. REINGOLD:  I mean, if you have


       9        ex-parte, you declare it.  And if it covers


      10        beyond the subject, then it kind of opens the


      11        window or opens the door to additional


      12        discussion on those other issues.


      13             So I would recommend that you limit them to


      14        the issue at hand.


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  So, Mr. Reingold, you


      16        would recommend that committee members would not


      17        speak to any other issue other than the


      18        structural soundness of this?


      19             MR. REINGOLD:  That would be my


      20        recommendation because if you speak to other


      21        issues, which could happen, then you open the


      22        door to the public hearing discussion going to


      23        the other issues that you may have discussed in


      24        the ex-parte communication.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  So we have





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        deferred that item, and -- I'm sorry.  We


       2        continued the public hearing, and we will take


       3        it up -- we should probably give at least two


       4        cycles to take it back up, wouldn't you say,


       5        Mr. Reingold?  Would that give time enough --


       6        Planning?


       7             MR. REINGOLD:  I'll just say Mr. Teal just


       8        said that he could probably get it done in


       9        48 hours.  We could either have it for


      10        January 20th or -- then the meeting after that I


      11        believe is February 2nd, but it's -- you know,


      12        you're the chair.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Davis.


      14             MR. DAVIS:  I am not going to be here on


      15        the 20th.  I'd love to be here for this one, but


      16        it's up to you, Mr. Chairman.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  If you want to be


      18        here, we'll push it off to the next one.


      19             All right.  That would be February 2nd.


      20             All right.  We will continue it to


      21        February 2nd.


      22             Mr. Joost, you had a comment?


      23             MR. JOOST:  I would also like to have our


      24        engineer -- to me, it's not just a yes or no, is


      25        it sound or unsound?  If he comes back and says





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        it's unsound, give me options.  Because it's


       2        unsound, but it only requires, like, you know,


       3        one beam being installed in the roof.  I would


       4        like to know that, you know.  And so I would


       5        like -- when the engineer goes out there, it's


       6        just not a yes or no, either it's sound or if


       7        it's unsound, what are the options to make it


       8        sound.


       9             MR. REDMAN:  (Inaudible.)


      10             MR. JOOST:  And they can come back with an


      11        explanation.  Yes, we need two cross beams or


      12        whatever.  So, you know, if it's a minor expense


      13        to make it sound, well, that's a whole new ball


      14        game.


      15             Thank you.


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Time snuck up on


      17        me.


      18             Mr. Corrigan, you want to say something,


      19        but Diane needs a break.


      20             MR. CORRIGAN:  I just wanted to -- I


      21        guess -- I think the public is somewhat confused


      22        about the ex-parte aspect of it.  If I could


      23        clarify it to them a little bit real quick.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Yes.


      25             MR. CORRIGAN:  Basically, what we're





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        agreeing to do is to not have ex-parte


       2        communications with other parties, especially


       3        about anything -- and really not even about the


       4        structural.


       5             I guess my question -- what I think the


       6        opposition is going to have is, are we going to


       7        allow outside independent structural engineers


       8        to present evidence next time, or are we


       9        strictly going to hear what the City departments


      10        are going to give us?


      11             Because if we're going to -- if the


      12        applicant is going to get outside -- additional


      13        outside engineering evidence to present, then


      14        the opposition may have --


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, I would imagine that


      16        they would bring back someone to rebut any


      17        evidence.


      18             MR. CORRIGAN:  Okay.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  But that's for us --


      20             MR. DAVIS:  (Inaudible.)


      21             MR. CORRIGAN:  Okay.  I just wanted to make


      22        sure we understood where we're going, that


      23        everybody is on the same page.


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  I would think they would.


      25             MR. CORRIGAN:  And, Mr. Chairman, I





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        appreciate you taking this up early for me.


       2             Thank you very much.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Thank you.


       4             With that, we're going to -- that item is


       5        deferred.  We're going to take five minutes to


       6        give our court reporter time to rest her


       7        fingers.


       8             (Brief recess.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:   Let's see if we can get


      10        everybody back in our places.  We've got four of


      11        us up here.  Mr. Redman will come back and join


      12        us in a little bit.


      13             Okay.  We have gone through a grand total


      14        of three items.  One of them ended up getting


      15        deferred.


      16             Let's go back to page 2.  Everybody ready?


      17             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Yes.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Items 1 and 2


      19        are deferred.


      20             Item 3, 2009-91.  We will open the public


      21        hearing.


      22             No speakers.


      23             We will continue the public hearing to


      24        February 2nd and take no further action.


      25             Item 4, 2009-350, we will open the public





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        hearing.


       2             Seeing no speakers, we will continue that


       3        to February 2nd and take no further action.


       4             -402 is deferred.


       5             2009-429, open the public hearing.


       6             No speakers.


       7             We'll continue that to 1/20, take no


       8        further action.


       9             Items 7 and 8 are deferred.


      10             Item 9, 2009-655, open the public hearing.


      11             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue to


      12        February 2nd, as well as 2009-656.


      13             No speakers, we will -- I'm sorry.  That's


      14        another one.


      15             So open the public hearing.


      16             Any speakers?


      17             AUDIENCE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  No speakers.


      19             Close the public hearing.


      20             MR. DAVIS:  Move the sub.


      21             MR. JOOST:  Second.


      22             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


      23        sub.


      24             All in favor of the sub, please signify by


      25        saying aye.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  The sub passes.


       3             MR. DAVIS:  Move to rerefer to LUZ.


       4             DR. GAFFNEY:  Second.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second to refer


       6        to LUZ.


       7             Please open the ballot.


       8             (Committee ballot opened.)


       9             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      10             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      11             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      15        the vote.


      16             (Committee ballot closed.)


      17             MS. LAHMEUR:  Five yeas, zero nay.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      19        rereferred back to us.


      20             2009-657, we'll open the public hearing.


      21             No speakers.


      22             We will continue it to February 2nd.


      23             (Mr. Redman enters the proceedings.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Item number 12, 2009-658,


      25        we'll open the public hearing.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             No speakers.


       2             We'll close the public hearing.


       3             We have a sub.


       4             MR. JOOST:  Move the sub.


       5             MR. DAVIS:  Second.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


       7        sub.


       8             All in favor of the sub, please signify by


       9        saying aye.


      10             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      11             THE CHAIRMAN:  The sub passes.


      12             MR. DAVIS:  Move to rerefer.


      13             MR. JOOST:  Second.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and a second


      15        to rerefer back to LUZ.


      16             Please open the ballot.


      17             (Committee ballot opened.)


      18             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      19             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      20             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      21             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      23             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot and record


      25        the vote.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             (Committee ballot closed.)


       2             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


       3             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


       4        rereferred back to LUZ.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  2009-663, we'll open the


       6        public hearing.


       7             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that one


       8        to January 20th, take no further action.


       9             2009-664, open the public hearing.


      10             No speakers.


      11             We'll continue that one to January 20th, no


      12        further action.


      13             All right.  2009-667 we already did, -668


      14        we already did.


      15             2009-751, we'll open the public hearing.


      16             Seeing no speakers, we'll continue that to


      17        2/2, take no further action.


      18             Hey, something we get to take some action


      19        on.


      20             2009-857.  Open the public hearing.


      21             And we have a Mr. Andrew -- is that Sodl?


      22             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes.


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  I'll just do a blanket


      24        apology for anybody's name that I butchered.


      25             (Audience member approaches the podium.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That's fine.


       2             Andrew Sodl with Akerman Senterfitt.  We're


       3        representing the applicant.


       4             I'm just available for any -- answer any


       5        questions or any comments from the --


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Any questions


       7        for Mr. Sodl?


       8             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       9             THE CHAIRMAN:  Anyone need to -- no, it's


      10        not an ex-parte.


      11             All right.  Thank you, sir.


      12             Seeing no other speakers, we'll close that


      13        public hearing.


      14             I need a motion.


      15             MR. DAVIS:  Move the bill.


      16             MR. JOOST:  Second.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


      18        bill.


      19             Please open the ballot.


      20             (Committee ballot opened.)


      21             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      23             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      24             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      25             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


       3        vote.


       4             (Committee ballot closed.)


       5             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       7        approved 2009-857.


       8             2009-858, open the public hearing.


       9             No speakers.


      10             We'll close the public hearing.


      11             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.


      12             MR. DAVIS:  Second.


      13             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on


      14        2009-858.


      15             Please open the ballot.


      16             (Committee ballot opened.)


      17             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      18             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      19             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      20             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      21             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      22             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      23             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      24        vote.


      25             (Committee ballot closed.)





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


       3        approved 2009-858.


       4             2009-864.  We'll open the public hearing.


       5             No speakers.


       6             We'll continue that to January 20th, take


       7        no further action.


       8             All right.  2009-872.  Let's open the


       9        public hearing.


      10             And Mr. Dylan Reingold has a very short


      11        presentation about this change in our heavy


      12        industrial category.


      13             MR. REINGOLD:  Thank you.


      14             To the Chair, essentially the bill just


      15        removes the access restriction from heavy


      16        industrial properties to local roads in the


      17        zoning code, and it just allows that the heavy


      18        industrial portion of the zoning code is


      19        consistent with the heavy industrial portion of


      20        our comp plan.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Any questions for


      22        Mr. Reingold?


      23             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


      24             THE CHAIRMAN:  No other speakers.


      25             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. DAVIS:  Second.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Hold on.  I have a question


       3        for Mr. Reingold.


       4             Does that mean that today or before we pass


       5        this bill, heavy industrial properties would not


       6        allow access to local roads?


       7             MR. REINGOLD:  Our zoning code right now


       8        did not allow access from heavy industrial


       9        properties to local roads.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  Mr. Davis.


      11             MR. DAVIS:  Real quickly, does anybody have


      12        the number of how many heavy industrial sites


      13        would not comply, or is it a percentage?


      14        Ballpark?


      15             MR. KELLY:  There's no percentage, I


      16        believe, number specific, but it was just


      17        basically because of the text changes to the


      18        comp plan and the future land use element that


      19        allowed local access, and then we had the


      20        inconsistency as Dylan described.  That was


      21        still left over in the zoning code.  So this is


      22        really a correction to bring it into consistency


      23        with the comp plan.


      24             MR. DAVIS:  All right.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             MR. DAVIS:  Move the bill.


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Need to close the public


       3        hearing.


       4             MR. JOOST:  Second.


       5             THE CHAIRMAN:  I have a motion and a second


       6        on the bill.


       7             Please open the ballot.


       8             (Committee ballot opened.)


       9             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      10             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      11             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      12             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      14             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      15             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      16        vote.


      17             (Committee ballot closed.)


      18             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


      19             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      20        approved 2009-872.


      21             Thank you, Mr. Reingold.


      22             -888, open the public hearing.


      23             And we have Mr. Atwill.  He's here for


      24        questions only.


      25             Does anyone have questions for Mr. Atwill?





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  (No response.)


       2             THE CHAIRMAN:  Seeing none, we will close


       3        the public hearing.


       4             MR. DAVIS:  Move the bill.


       5             MR. JOOST:  Second.


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


       7        bill.


       8             Please open the ballot.


       9             (Committee ballot opened.)


      10             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      11             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      12             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      13             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      14             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      15             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      16             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      17        vote.


      18             (Committee ballot closed.)


      19             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nay.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you've


      21        approved 2009-888.


      22             Thank you, Mr. Atwill.


      23             2009-889, open the public hearing.


      24             Mr. Atwill again for questions only.


      25             Seeing none, we will close the public





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        hearing.


       2             MR. DAVIS:  Move the bill.


       3             MR. JOOST:  Second.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


       5        bill.


       6             Please open the ballot.


       7             (Committee ballot opened.)


       8             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


       9             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      10             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      11             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      12             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      15        vote.


      16             (Committee ballot closed.)


      17             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nays.


      18             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      19        approved -889.


      20             All right.  We've done -910.  The other


      21        three are second and rereferred.  Unless I'm


      22        missing something.  Am I missing something?


      23             MR. JOOST:  -890.


      24             MR. REINGOLD:  Page 10, sir.


      25             THE CHAIRMAN:  Oh, I did miss -- okay.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        Sorry.


       2             -890, open the public hearing.  Mr. Atwill


       3        for questions only.


       4             Seeing no questions, we'll close the public


       5        hearing.


       6             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill.


       7             MR. DAVIS:  Second.


       8             THE CHAIRMAN:  Move -890.


       9             Please open the ballot.


      10             (Committee ballot opened.)


      11             MR. HOLT:  (Votes yea.)


      12             MR. BROWN:  (Votes yea.)


      13             MR. DAVIS:  (Votes yea.)


      14             DR. GAFFNEY:  (Votes yea.)


      15             MR. JOOST:  (Votes yea.)


      16             MR. REDMAN:  (Votes yea.)


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Close the ballot, record the


      18        vote.


      19             (Committee ballot closed.)


      20             MS. LAHMEUR:  Six yeas, zero nays.


      21             THE CHAIRMAN:  By your action, you have


      22        approved -890.


      23             -892 is deferred.


      24             -907, we will open the public hearing.


      25             Seeing no speakers, we'll close the public





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        hearing.


       2             We have an amendment.


       3             MR. JOOST:  Move the amendment.


       4             THE CHAIRMAN:  Motion and -- is there a


       5        second?


       6             MR. DAVIS:  Second.


       7             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second.


       8             Can we hear the amendment, Mr. Crofts or


       9        Mr. Kelly?


      10             MR. REINGOLD:  To the Chair and to the


      11        committee, essentially what the amendment does


      12        is it kind of cross-references Part 6 and


      13        Part 12 together.


      14             What it's going to do in Part 12 is


      15        essentially say that all the vehicle use area


      16        landscaping and all the perimeter landscaping


      17        shall comply with the requirements set forth in


      18        the parking lot landscape matrix set forth in


      19        656.607(j).


      20             The goal from the Planning Department


      21        raised this issue was that, if it didn't want


      22        someone to run through the landscaping ordinance


      23        and Part 12, only to later find out that there


      24        was a parking matrix landscape in Part 6 that


      25        they missed.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             Additionally, it just strikes the


       2        percentage in 656.1214(a) and just says, look,


       3        the amount is going to be set by the parking


       4        matrix.  And there's a similar reference in


       5        656.1215(a)(1).


       6             THE CHAIRMAN:  All right.  That's the


       7        amendment, or is that the overall bill?


       8             MR. REINGOLD:  Sorry.  I thought there was


       9        a request for an explanation of the amendment.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  Right.  Right.  I'm -- could


      11        we have an overall explanation of the bill for


      12        me?


      13             MR. KELLY:  Certainly.  Thank you.


      14             To the Chair, to the committee, this


      15        ordinance, 2009-907 --


      16             MR. DAVIS:  Point of clarification.


      17             THE CHAIRMAN:  Sure.  Go ahead.


      18             MR. DAVIS:  We're just on the amendment


      19        right now.


      20             THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Well, yeah.  Go ahead


      21        and --


      22             MR. DAVIS:  I guess -- just so I -- I kind


      23        of want to know the bill myself.  I haven't


      24        heard anything about it, and I'd like to


      25        understand it.





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1             THE CHAIRMAN:  I just haven't heard that


       2        this was coming through, so we need to


       3        understand it a little better.


       4             Let's go ahead and vote on the amendment.


       5             We have a motion and a second on the


       6        amendment.


       7             All in favor of the amendment signify by


       8        saying aye.


       9             COMMITTEE MEMBERS:  Aye.


      10             THE CHAIRMAN:  The amendment passes.


      11             Now let's --


      12             MR. JOOST:  Move the bill as amended.


      13             MR. DAVIS:  Second.


      14             THE CHAIRMAN:  A motion and second on the


      15        bill as amended.


      16             Mr. Kelly.


      17             MR. KELLY:  Thank you.


      18             Ordinance 2009-907, this is essentially


      19        cleanup legislation, a parking rewrite, if you


      20        will, that addresses some of the issues that


      21        came up as a result of the rewrite of the


      22        parking legislation back in 2007 during the


      23        zoning subcommittee.  Councilmember Jenkins was


      24        the subcommittee chair for that portion of the


      25        rewrite of the code, and kind of what came to





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        light over the years -- a few years since the


       2        adoption of that was the incorporation of


       3        parking maximums in our zoning code and in our


       4        parking requirements.


       5             We have worked jointly with the Chamber of


       6        Commerce to develop these criteria and have


       7        created flexibility into the code that belies


       8        basically a range of parking for both office and


       9        retail uses from a three per thousand up to a


      10        six per thousand, which is a matter of right,


      11        which precludes or would prevent somebody


      12        essentially from having to go to a formal public


      13        hearing to increase their parking requirements.


      14             So there's standards built in in this range


      15        of uses.  The range of uses is actually based


      16        upon the ITE parking demand generation rates.


      17        So there's numerous studies to back up the range


      18        for those uses.  And so you have various office


      19        uses that might not demand as much parking.


      20             For one instance, you might have a call


      21        center and they might want six spaces per


      22        thousand, or you might have a professional


      23        office, all the same square feet and they only


      24        need three per thousand.


      25             This accommodates all of those users





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        without the need for having to do any formal


       2        public hearing.


       3             Additionally, it clarifies that there is an


       4        AD process to increase the maximum parking


       5        requirements and additionally provides a less


       6        restrictive requirement on existing parking lots


       7        when they add additional parking to bring them


       8        into conformance with the current parking and


       9        landscaping codes.


      10             Traditionally, or as it is now in the code,


      11        if somebody was to add five parking spaces to an


      12        existing 100-space lot, the addition of those


      13        five spaces automatically triggers the entire


      14        parking lot to be brought into compliance with


      15        parking and landscaping.  That threshold is now


      16        up to 35 percent.  So it's based on a 35 percent


      17        threshold as opposed to just any number of


      18        spaces.


      19             This matrix is kind of the formulation


      20        between the committees and the department.  What


      21        we're trying to do in this is to promote some


      22        infill and redevelopment on these restricted


      23        sites.  These commercial properties that are


      24        older generally don't conform to the code, to


      25        allow them some relaxation in terms of the





           Diane M. Tropia, P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203





       1        number of spaces and the landscaping that they


       2        can provide on the site because typically most


       3        of them don't conform to the current landscape


       4        code.  And to do so in most case becomes


       5        impractical for the use of the site, if they


       6        were to completely comply with that.


       7             So this provides flexibility in the design,


       8        and it's proportionate to the size of the


       9        parking space.  So if you -- if you develop at a


      10        certain parking rate, as you increase the number


      11        of parking spaces, total spaces for your parking


      12        lot, proportionately then you get more


      13        landscaping and greenspace in that parking lot


      14        instead of having a sea of parking.


      15             So you've got wider perimeter landscaping


      16        for the larger, newer types of development and


      17        redevelopment of these larger, older centers.


      18        And so that's the intent, is to promote the


      19        redevelopment for small commercial infill


      20        sites.


      21             I believe Wyman is here and Jessica as


      22        well, if they can speak to the Chamber's input


      23        into this process as well.