CITY OF JACKSONVILLE
LAND USE AND ZONING
COMMITTEE
Proceedings held on Tuesday, June 7,
2011, commencing at 5:07 p.m., City Hall, Council
Chambers, 1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before
Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the
State of Florida at Large.
PRESENT:
JOHN CRESCIMBENI, Chair.
RAY HOLT, Vice Chair.
WILLIAM BISHOP, Committee Member.
DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
DICK BROWN, Committee Member.
ALSO PRESENT:
BILL KILLINGSWORTH, Director, Planning Dept.
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
June 7, 2011 5:07 p.m.
2 - - -
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Good evening, everyone.
4 We're going to call the June 7th, 2011,
5 Land Use and Zoning Committee meeting to order.
6 It's about eight minutes after five p.m.
7 We have a couple of lengthy items on our
8 agenda tonight.
9 For those folks that picked up an agenda
10 in the audience, I want to call your attention
11 to the fact that on page 4, item 9, we are
12 going to defer that this evening. It's not
13 marked accordingly. But just in case you're
14 here for that item, we are not going to take
15 that item up. Item 9, on page 4, 2011-254 will
16 be deferred.
17 All right. We're going to start off with
18 everybody introducing themselves for the
19 record.
20 Mr. Crofts, do want start that for me,
21 please.
22 MR. CROFTS: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
23 Good evening. My name is John Crofts.
24 I'm deputy director of Planning.
25 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
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1 Development.
2 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford, Planning and
3 Development.
4 MR. REINGOLD: Dylan Reingold, Office of
5 General Counsel.
6 MR. R. BROWN: Reginald Brown,
7 District 10.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm John Crescimbeni,
9 at-large member, Group 2.
10 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt, District 11.
11 MR. BISHOP: Bill Bishop, District 2.
12 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
14 everyone.
15 I do have an excused absence from
16 Councilman Joost.
17 And Councilman Brown is here, Dick Brown.
18 I saw him earlier. I think just -- he went
19 back up to his office to get one of the books
20 that we needed for an item coming up, so he is
21 with us.
22 Mr. Reingold, do you want to read the LUZ
23 preamble?
24 MR. REINGOLD: I would be delighted, sir.
25 Anyone who would like to address the
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1 committee tonight must fill out a yellow
2 speaker's card in its entirety. The yellow
3 speakers' cards are located on the desk up
4 front, near the podium. Once completed, please
5 return the speaker's card to the basket on the
6 front desk.
7 Any person who lobbies the City for
8 compensation is considered a lobbyist and is
9 therefore required to register their lobbying
10 activity with the City Council secretary. If
11 you are a lobbyist and have not registered with
12 the City Council secretary, you will not be
13 permitted to address the committee.
14 Because a verbatim transcript of this
15 meeting will be prepared by a court reporter,
16 it is important that you speak clearly into the
17 microphone when you address the committee. It
18 is also important that only one person speak at
19 a time.
20 Any tangible materials submitted with a
21 speaker's presentation, such as documents or
22 photographs, shall become a permanent part of
23 the public record and will be retained by the
24 committee.
25 As a courtesy, please switch any cell
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1 phones, pagers or other audible devices to a
2 silent mode.
3 Additionally, there will be no public
4 displays of support or opposition, so please
5 refrain from applause or speaking out of turn.
6 Items are generally addressed in the order
7 in which they are listed on the agenda. Copies
8 of the agenda are located on the desk up front,
9 near the podium.
10 On occasion, items may be heard out of
11 order for the sake of efficiency or to
12 accommodate scheduling conflicts.
13 Unless there is a formal hearing on a
14 particular item, each member of the public is
15 limited to a single three-minute presentation.
16 Presentations should be focused, concise, and
17 address only the item pending before the
18 committee.
19 Prior to addressing the committee, please
20 state your name and address for the court
21 reporter.
22 Decisions on rezonings, including PUDs,
23 waivers of road frontage and appeals, are all
24 considered quasi-judicial in nature and certain
25 protocols will be followed for these
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1 proceedings.
2 First, each council member must disclose
3 on the record any ex-parte communications they
4 have had with any members of the public. This
5 shall occur prior to the public hearing on each
6 applicable item. The ex-parte statement shall
7 include when the communication took place, who
8 the communication was with, and what the
9 subject matter of the communication was about.
10 Second, the normal format is to allow the
11 applicant or agent thereof to make their
12 presentation first, followed by members of the
13 public who wish to speak in support of the
14 item, then members of the public who are in
15 opposition will be allowed to speak.
16 After all of the public comments have been
17 received, the applicant will have a brief
18 opportunity to wrap up or present a brief
19 rebuttal. The wrap-up or rebuttal shall be
20 limited to the issues brought up by the
21 speakers.
22 In some instances, the Chair may permit a
23 concise surrebuttal or response to the
24 applicant's rebuttal. That will be followed by
25 a brief final response by the applicant.
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1 Finally, all quasi-judicial decisions must
2 be based upon substantial competent evidence,
3 which means that the committee's decision must
4 be supported by fact-based testimony or expert
5 testimony and not generalized concerns or
6 opinions.
7 Thank you very much.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
9 Let the record reflect that Councilman
10 Dick Brown has joined us.
11 Our first item on the agenda tonight,
12 2010-585. I see a conference going on over
13 here.
14 Mr. Ingram, are you ready to take this up
15 or do you want to -- are you conferring?
16 MR. INGRAM: Mr. Chairman, would it be
17 possible to hear some of the other items --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: It absolutely --
19 (Simultaneous speaking.)
20 MR. INGRAM: -- (inaudible) couple of
21 minutes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: -- wouldn't be. We have no
23 problem doing that.
24 All right. I just --
25 MR. INGRAM: Thank you very much.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: That's why I kind of
2 surmised that -- all right. So we're going to
3 pass over item 1 temporarily.
4 Item 2 2010-670, is deferred.
5 Item 3, 2010-856.
6 MR. HOLT: Move to withdraw.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: There's a motion to
8 withdraw by Mr. Holt.
9 Is there a second?
10 MR. D. BROWN: Second.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Second by Councilman Dick
12 Brown.
13 Any discussion on that motion?
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I can tell you
16 that some committee appointed me to a
17 subcommittee. I forget what committee it was
18 now. It might have been Rules. And I'm
19 working with the folks with regard to this
20 issue, but we're at a point where we're
21 probably going to be talking about rewriting
22 Chapter 250 in its entirety, so whatever we end
23 up coming up with is probably not going to be
24 this, so I have no problem with the withdrawal
25 as well.
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1 All right. Any further discussion on the
2 withdrawal?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Hearing none, open the
5 ballot, vote.
6 (Committee ballot opened.)
7 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. R. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
13 (Committee ballot closed.)
14 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nays.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
16 withdrawn item 3, 2010-856.
17 Item 4, 2011-158, is deferred.
18 Turning to page 3, at the top, 2011-159 is
19 deferred.
20 And that brings us to item 6, 2011-179.
21 Mr. Kelly.
22 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
23 To the Chair, ordinance 2011-179 is a
24 waiver of road frontage. The subject property
25 is located on Tierra Verde Court, on the south
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1 side of Greenland Road, at the western terminus
2 of Tierra Verde Lane. Tierra Verde Lane is
3 basically an approved private roadway.
4 The waiver sought request is actually
5 because of the -- the nature of the roadway is
6 considered to be a cul-de-sac. The request has
7 actually diminished from 80 feet to 0 feet to
8 35 feet to 0 feet. The subject property is
9 zoned RR zoning -- RR-acre zoning.
10 The Department reviewed this and finds
11 that there's really no practical difficulty in
12 complying with the strict letter of the
13 regulation. The -- again, the minimum road
14 frontage on a cul-de-sac is 35 feet. The lot
15 could be subdivided to provide a 35-foot
16 unobstructed portion of property to the
17 cul-de-sac to subdivide the lot legally without
18 the need for the waiver of road frontage.
19 The Department finds, again, that it
20 doesn't meet the criteria for a waiver.
21 There's no valid, effective easement proposed
22 on the subject property. This is basically
23 creating a landlocked piece of property. We
24 find, again, that in these situations it
25 becomes detrimental to the health, safety and
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1 welfare as there's not adequate access to the
2 subject property and the condition would make
3 it difficult to find for emergency responders.
4 The Department does not support even the
5 diminished request in this instance, again, as
6 there's no practical difficulty in carrying out
7 the strict letter of the regulation.
8 We find that this would alter the
9 character of the area. Additionally, there was
10 no valid easement proposed for the new lot and,
11 therefore, we are recommending denial.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
13 Mr. Kelly.
14 Any questions from the committee for
15 Mr. Kelly?
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none,
18 this is a quasi-judicial matter. Does anyone
19 have any ex-parte communication to disclose?
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none, we
22 have a public hearing scheduled this evening.
23 The public hearing is open. I have one
24 speaker's card, David Taylor, a different
25 David Taylor.
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1 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: A different David
3 Taylor.
4 David Taylor with Dunn Associates, 8375
5 Dix Ellis Trail.
6 I'm here representing Mr. LeCalsey.
7 I have just a couple of handouts that I'd
8 like to introduce.
9 Mr. Kelly is correct in a couple of his
10 statements. One statement that we disagree
11 with was the provision of an easement. The
12 intent was -- and on the included document, on
13 the very last page of the package, a 25-foot
14 access and utility easement was going to be
15 provided, and that was presented to you, the
16 Planning Department. I'm not sure why they
17 missed that, but the intent was to provide an
18 easement to the back parcel, and that will
19 occur.
20 As far as the nature of the subdivision,
21 the handout that I gave you basically
22 identifies about five parcels in this area. I
23 mean, this is old Mandarin, in which there were
24 a lot of long driveways, there were
25 irregular-shaped lots.
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1 It appears that there's about five parcels
2 just to the southeast of the subject parcel.
3 And, as you can see, it's labeled 1, 2, 3, 4,
4 and 5. Especially number 5, it has a long
5 35-foot driveway, which would not meet the
6 requirements. 1, 2, and 3 have basically a
7 zero or a very small access point, according to
8 the GIS. So we are, you know, basically
9 requesting that you review this, and in the
10 nature of old Mandarin vote to -- to approve
11 this waiver.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
13 Mr. Taylor.
14 Any questions from the committee?
15 MR. HOLT: Yes.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
17 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
18 Through the Chair to Mr. Taylor, is the
19 purpose of this to build just one additional
20 home on the property?
21 MR. TAYLOR: That's -- the intent is only
22 to build one additional home in the back, no
23 more further subdivisions. They would agree to
24 that. The original person bought this as five
25 acres and decided that he didn't want the five
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1 acres, and it was -- basically wanted to sell
2 off the back half.
3 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you.
4 Through the Chair to Mr. Kelly, you were
5 just explaining to us that it is possible for
6 him to build an additional home under the
7 35 foot, so what am I missing here?
8 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
9 And, you know, we don't understand really
10 the merit of the application either. You know,
11 this is something -- they could easily provide
12 a 35-foot-wide strip of land to the Tierra
13 Verde Lane cul-de-sac. As long as that strip
14 remains the same width and is unobstructed by
15 any structures or anything back to the
16 developable portion of parcel 2, there's no
17 reason they couldn't do this by right as a
18 matter of right. So, you know --
19 Our issue is the pattern of development.
20 You see the cumulative effect based upon the
21 GIS information. These are all old approved
22 private roadways, so the -- the lots that were
23 mentioned, 1, 2, 3, and 5, you know, those lots
24 are on approved private roadways and you don't
25 actually have the dimension of the private
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1 easement width, which is typically going to be
2 a 50-foot easement for those. And those lots
3 are on the cul-de-sac as well, in which they
4 probably have that same amount of legal
5 frontage on that private easement, so --
6 MR. HOLT: Is what I'm missing here that
7 he wants to enter on Tierra Verde Court, not
8 Tierra Verde Lane; is that the difference?
9 MR. KELLY: No, that's not my
10 understanding.
11 The understanding was it was from Tierra
12 Verde Lane South, which is the westerly, I
13 guess, stub-out just north of Tierra Verde Lane
14 Court, but it is also classified, according to
15 Streets and Drainage, as an approved private
16 roadway, which is a cul-de-sac.
17 MR. HOLT: So if he were to apply for a
18 reduction from 80 feet to 35 feet, that would
19 satisfy the Planning Department? He could
20 build an additional residence on the property
21 and you would be willing to approve that?
22 MR. KELLY: If the parcel was recorded --
23 he has over 100 feet of frontage on the
24 cul-de-sac. So if 35 feet of that 100 feet of
25 frontage is dedicated to parcel 2, he can go
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1 pull a permit tomorrow. There's no need to
2 landlock the lot himself.
3 MR. HOLT: Well, what's the issue here?
4 If he would be able to do that --
5 MR. TAYLOR: Well, basically when we
6 started this process, we were not aware of that
7 until after the recommendation was given to us,
8 while in denial, that that was pointed out to
9 us.
10 That is an option, and there are a couple
11 of benefits to both parties by allowing the
12 waiver because you have a 25-foot buffer. Each
13 party could put -- could build a fence and you
14 wouldn't end up with dual fences 25 foot apart.
15 The first property owner would retain access
16 and could use that as a driveway versus
17 basically not having access to that driveway at
18 all or having to build double driveways side by
19 side.
20 So it's more from a practical standpoint
21 and a usability standpoint and the neighborly,
22 you know, aspect of having a neighbor getting
23 along with them versus basically isolating them
24 because of the fence requirements and other
25 building requirements.
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1 MR. HOLT: All right. Well, let me see if
2 I can fix this with an amendment to this bill
3 to reduce it from 80 feet to 35 feet.
4 Would that satisfy everybody?
5 MR. KELLY: We -- we've agreed to that.
6 The reduction was originally -- it was
7 originally noticed as 80 feet, but the 35 feet
8 is currently what's only required due to the
9 nature, the status of the road as an approved
10 private cul-de-sac. I think they're proposing
11 actually 25 feet of an easement, which would
12 belong entirely to parcel 1.
13 MR. HOLT: Okay. Well, sir, it seems to
14 me that if you're able to accomplish your goal
15 with what the Planning Department is
16 suggesting -- I don't know about the other
17 members of this committee, but I find it very
18 difficult to go against my Planning Department,
19 so I would be inclined to deny at -- the
20 current request to go to zero, but they're
21 saying that by right you have the ability to go
22 to 35 feet and accomplish your goal, so I'd
23 certainly encourage you to take that route.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Holt.
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1 Mr. Taylor, have you had any conversations
2 with the Planning Department staff on this
3 matter?
4 MR. TAYLOR: I've had e-mail
5 correspondence with Andy Hertzel -- Hetzel.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Like Mr. Holt, I
7 feel like I'm missing something here.
8 Why was --
9 MR. KELLY: We disclosed this information
10 prior to issuing the report. Andy had been in
11 contact with the applicant and explained to him
12 that he could legally, you know, subdivide the
13 property and comply with the intent of the
14 code. They chose to proceed.
15 MR. TAYLOR: Actually, I believe I would
16 argue different. It was after the report was
17 issued or given to us that we have e-mail
18 correspondence to that fact. I did ask that
19 question and I am aware of the ability to do
20 that. We are still -- we were still requesting
21 the waiver because of some functionality issues
22 with the driveway and fencing and the landscape
23 and, et cetera, so --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: How does the waiver impact
25 that?
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1 MR. TAYLOR: Because the property line
2 shifts over so the -- one parcel has a property
3 line 25 foot from the other guy's property
4 line, so his fence could not be on the --
5 against the adjacent owner. So you could, in
6 fact, have two fences 25 foot apart. And that
7 would create an alley effect versus having a
8 natural effect. And if this guy wanted to put
9 up a fence, he could put a fence and there
10 would only be one fence.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you live in this
12 neighborhood or you just represent the property
13 owner?
14 MR. TAYLOR: I just represent this area --
15 I mean, this owner, but --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you familiar with the
17 area?
18 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, sir, I am. I am. I've
19 been to this site, and it's -- I don't feel
20 that it's not traditional. The end of
21 cul-de-sacs -- you know, I don't have the
22 actual parcel information, but I would argue
23 that they're less than 35 -- they're probably,
24 you know, 10 feet -- this whole area, there was
25 a lot of stuff that was going on. It's an
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1 improved private road before it wasn't even
2 governed by the City, so --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a cul-de-sac at
4 the terminus of that street? Is there -- gets
5 close to what you have identified as subject
6 parcel A and B?
7 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, sir, there is a
8 cul-de-sac there.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it an approved
10 cul-de-sac?
11 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, sir, it is.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this the street that has
13 the house with the wild Christmas display?
14 MR. TAYLOR: I don't know. I've not been
15 there at Christmastime.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I think I've been on this
17 street before.
18 All right. Any questions from the
19 committee, any motions?
20 Mr. Holt.
21 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
22 I'm still kind of at a loss as to where to
23 go with this. If this gentleman insists on
24 going with the 80 feet to 0 and not withdrawing
25 this bill, then does it put him in a position
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1 where he can't request it for a year or he
2 can't request to go to 35 now?
3 MR. KELLY: Well, actually the request is
4 to 35. We agreed -- we've amended the actual
5 request to go -- instead of 80 to 35. It's
6 from -- or 80 to 0. It's from 35 to 0.
7 We're still opposed to the reduction to
8 0 from 35.
9 MR. HOLT: Okay. So it already has been
10 reduced to 35? He's further wanting a
11 reduction to 0?
12 MR. KELLY: Correct.
13 He needs a reduction to zero to subdivide
14 the property and basically take the whole west
15 half of the lot and basically landlock it
16 without any road frontage.
17 MR. HOLT: Okay. Well, if you guys are
18 recommending against the reduction to zero, I'm
19 going to vote against it.
20 Mr. Reingold seems to be very excited.
21 Mr. Chair, can I --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
23 MR. HOLT: -- have Mr. Reingold speak?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's find out why
25 Mr. Reingold is so excited.
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1 MR. REINGOLD: I didn't realize I was
2 being so exciting.
3 I guess the comment I wanted to add was
4 that -- the request in the bill says 80 to 0.
5 Because of the fact that it's on a cul-de-sac,
6 the Office of General Counsel would just
7 recommend, with whatever amendment it is,
8 whether it's to approve or deny, is that the
9 request be modified in the bill to say that
10 it's from 35 to 0. That issue was clarified or
11 mentioned by Mr. Kelly, but it technically
12 hasn't been made yet by this committee and we
13 would look for that to be as part of the
14 amendment.
15 MR. TAYLOR: If I can just clarify one
16 thing. If it's voted down, by standard land
17 development code the person is still allowed to
18 plat the property up and provide 35 foot. So
19 if you vote no, you're not diminishing his
20 ability; you're just allowing him to make the
21 property a little bit more palatable to both
22 neighbors?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that a question?
24 MR. TAYLOR: That was a question.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: That was a question?
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1 MR. TAYLOR: That was the question.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to respond to
3 that, Mr. Kelly?
4 MR. KELLY: If -- I mean, if the
5 Department's recommendation is upheld, he could
6 still go and pull a permit tomorrow after
7 re-recording the properties and providing the
8 adequate frontage, clear and unobstructed, back
9 to the vacant parcel 2.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
11 Folks on the front row there, if you guys
12 want to have a conversation, either go back to
13 the back of the room -- but you're starting to
14 distract myself and probably some of my
15 committee members. We don't discourage the
16 conversations, but we just ask that you take
17 them towards the back.
18 All right. Mr. Bishop, you were on the --
19 MR. BISHOP: No. Mr. Kelly answered my
20 questions.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
22 MR. BISHOP: I make a motion to amend to
23 deny the waiver.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion by Mr. -- do you
25 want to move the amendment first?
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1 MR. BISHOP: Move the amendment to --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you incorporating --
3 MR. BISHOP: Point of order.
4 Okay. There is a --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: You're going to move to
6 deny, but you're including the change from
7 35 -- from 80 to 35, correct?
8 Is that what we need?
9 MR. KELLY: Yes.
10 MR. BISHOP: Correct.
11 MR. HOLT: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop offers a motion
13 to deny but also includes the change from
14 80 feet to 35 feet with a reduction to 0,
15 seconded by Mr. Holt.
16 Discussion on the amendment?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor, say
19 yes.
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed, say no.
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
24 adopted the amendment.
25 MR. HOLT: Move the bill as amended.
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1 MR. BISHOP: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the bill as
3 amended by Mr. Holt, second by Mr. Bishop.
4 Discussion?
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: If there's none, please
7 open the ballot, vote.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. R. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
15 (Committee ballot closed.)
16 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you have
18 approved 2011-179 with the amendment to deny
19 the waiver.
20 MR. TAYLOR: Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Taylor,
22 thank you.
23 Item 7, 2011-252, we will not take this up
24 tonight. We do have a public hearing scheduled
25 this evening.
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1 Any speakers' cards?
2 MS. LAHMEUR: No.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. The public
4 hearing is open. We have no speakers' cards.
5 Anyone care to address the committee on
6 this issue?
7 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
9 the public hearing is continued until July
10 19th. And, again, no further action on that
11 item.
12 Mr. Ingram, are you ready?
13 MR. INGRAM: Yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Would your counterparts
15 concur?
16 MR. INGRAM: Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let's flip back
18 to page 2, at the top, item 1, 2010-585.
19 Mr. Kelly.
20 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
21 To the Chair and committee, ordinance
22 2010-585 seeks to rezone property located at
23 9069 and 9109 San Jose Boulevard. This is
24 located just south of Goodby's Creek, on the
25 east side, adjacent to some recently rezoned
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1 City preservation land. The current zoning
2 district was a PUD that was approved in 2005
3 and allowed for multifamily development,
4 condominiums, I believe, approximately
5 60 units. Additionally, in 2010, a land use
6 amendment from RPI to Neighborhood Commercial
7 was approved for this site. The land use was
8 approved and this zoning has been deferred
9 since the approval of that land use back in
10 September of last year.
11 This proposed PUD proposes Neighborhood
12 Commercial uses in conjunction with this site,
13 which is a commercial site, designated. The
14 Department finds that in conjunction with the
15 approved NC land use category, we find that
16 this PUD rezoning is consistent with the
17 comprehensive plan. We find it furthers the
18 goals and policies and objectives of the
19 comprehensive plan. The Department finds
20 that -- it to be internally compatible as well
21 as externally compatible and is therefore
22 recommending approval subject to the conditions
23 as identified in --
24 Oh, let me point out, the Planning
25 Commission, again, did not support this
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28
1 request. This was denied at Planning
2 Commission. I believe four to three was the
3 final vote.
4 The conditions are as indicated in the
5 staff report, page 9. I'll read them into the
6 record.
7 "The subject property is legally described
8 in the original legal description dated May 11,
9 2010."
10 "The subject property shall be developed
11 in accordance with the revised written
12 description dated May 18th, 2011."
13 Condition 3, "The subject property shall
14 be developed in accordance with the revised
15 site plan dated May 12th, 2011."
16 Condition 4, "The subject property shall
17 be developed in accordance with the Development
18 Services Division memorandum dated July 26th,
19 2010, or as otherwise approved by the Planning
20 and Development Department."
21 Condition 5 is a condition specifically as
22 it relates to lighting levels onto adjacent
23 properties, residential and nonresidential. I
24 won't read it for the record, but it's a
25 standard condition.
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1 With those five conditions, the Department
2 is recommending approval.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
4 This is a quasi-judicial matter, so we
5 need to disclose any ex-parte communication.
6 I'll start by disclosing that on June 2nd, I
7 met with Tom Ingram and Ali Shelton, is it?
8 That was a meeting held in my office here at
9 City Hall. We talked about the merits of the
10 project.
11 I had two telephone conversations with
12 individuals today that had left me messages,
13 Susie O'Quinn and Jeff Marks. I returned their
14 calls. We talked about the procedural matters
15 tonight, we talked about the change in the
16 Planning Department's recommendation, and also
17 about a request from the CPAC to defer.
18 We also have -- I think the Legislative
19 Services folks have all the information on
20 this, with regard to the CPAC request for
21 deferral, which they in turn rescinded.
22 And we also have a note from Councilmember
23 Webb -- do we read this into the record or --
24 MR. REINGOLD: We can.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Does everybody have a copy
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1 of this from Councilman Webb?
2 Let's see. It says, Council President
3 Webb will do his best to attend the LUZ meeting
4 this evening but may not be able to get here in
5 time. He wanted to respectfully request that
6 you inform the other members of your committee
7 that as the District 6 councilman he does not
8 support going forward with this PUD. The
9 traffic isn't -- is that -- the traffic is
10 [sic] that area of San Jose is already too
11 heavy. This will cause more problems and
12 building another strip center at the location
13 could possibly cause more safety issues to the
14 constituents living in the area. We have heard
15 frequently from his constituents over the past
16 month that they are totally against the
17 legislation and hope that you and your members
18 will consider their request and help them.
19 Council President Webb requests that this
20 correspondence be entered into the file for
21 2010-585.
22 All right. That's all I have.
23 Mr. Redman.
24 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 I need to declare ex-parte with
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1 Tom Ingram, September of 2010. With Bob Elrod
2 with Mr. Ingram, it was -- and his support of
3 this. Bob Elrod, that same day and his
4 opposition to it. I talked with Paul Harden
5 yesterday and -- concerning his support for
6 this zoning.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
8 Mr. Bishop.
9 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 In addition to previously-disclosed
11 ex-parte communications, I met with Mr. Ingram
12 Friday in my private business office regarding
13 this particular matter, and we discussed
14 other -- or just further continuing discussions
15 about the site plan and what's being planned
16 for the project, and I also did receive the
17 same e-mail that you read into the record from
18 Council President Webb.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
20 Mr. Holt.
21 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
22 I spoke today about 2:30 by phone with
23 Attorney Paul Harden about this issue. We
24 discussed the changes in the uses for the
25 property and traffic impacts.
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1 Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Holt.
3 I also have a meeting that I failed to
4 disclose that occurred on July 21st of 2010,
5 with Tom Ingram and Ali Korman-Shelton. We
6 talked about the land use amendment at that
7 time and the zoning as well.
8 I have a follow-up e-mail from Council
9 President Webb.
10 Mr. Reingold, do I need to read this whole
11 thing or just the highlighted portion?
12 MR. REINGOLD: You can just -- as you
13 wish, but you can certainly just read the
14 highlight if you want.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. It just says that,
16 as the District 6 councilman, he wanted to make
17 sure that the LUZ committee members were aware
18 that his constituent had -- constituents had
19 various concerns, including the following, and
20 he talks about the traffic that I read
21 previously.
22 All right. With that, any other ex-parte
23 to disclose?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We have a
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1 public hearing scheduled this evening. The
2 public hearing is open. I have several
3 speakers' cards. We've kind of sorted
4 these into listening to the proponents first
5 and then the opponents second, so we'll start
6 with Mr. Ingram.
7 (Mr. Ingram approaches the podium.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: I just need your name and
9 address for the record and then we'll start the
10 clock.
11 MR. INGRAM: Okay. Thank you.
12 Tom Ingram, 6620 Southpoint Drive South,
13 Suite 120, Jacksonville.
14 This is a proposed rezoning. It's
15 currently a Neighborhood Commercial land use
16 and it's currently a PUD. It's zoned for
17 60 condominium units, five stories in height.
18 It's on roughly five-and-a-half acres, just
19 south of Baymeadows Drive and on San Jose
20 Boulevard on the east side.
21 A couple of things. We have had some very
22 productive discussions with the neighbors from
23 the Rubin Road and Harbor Acres community, and
24 I would like to read into the record several
25 conditions that we would put in a revised
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1 written description dated today, June 7, to try
2 to work with the neighbors. We've already
3 substantially reduced the various types of
4 uses, but I'd like to go ahead and read that
5 list, if I could.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Ingram,
7 first of all, do you agree to the conditions
8 that were already read into the record?
9 MR. INGRAM: Yes, sir.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
11 If you want to proceed with the new
12 conditions.
13 Steve, if you want to stop the clock,
14 we'll -- go ahead, Mr. Ingram.
15 MR. INGRAM: Okay. The first would be
16 that there be no drive-thrus associated with a
17 permitted use except for banks and pharmacies.
18 The second would be no convenience stores would
19 be allowed. The third would prohibit tattoo
20 parlors, pawnshops, adult entertainment, adult
21 novelty stores, check cashing establishments,
22 and Internet cafes. The fourth addition would
23 be to limit the height of the main shopping
24 center sign to 15 feet in height. And the
25 fifth would be that there be no
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1 electronically-amplified outdoor sound.
2 So those are the five, and we would put
3 that in a new written description that we would
4 submit and we'd ask that there be a new --
5 change to the existing proposed ordinance to
6 incorporate a written description of today's
7 date into the ordinance.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
9 Mr. Ingram.
10 Mr. Reingold, did you have a question?
11 MR. REINGOLD: I just would have loved to
12 have seen that list that Mr. Ingram just read
13 into the record.
14 MR. INGRAM: Mr. Reingold, me too.
15 It was about five minutes ago, but we --
16 we had been working diligently through last
17 night and today to try to do that. And we were
18 able to today, so I thank you for letting us
19 have a few extra minutes.
20 The other thing I wanted to say is just --
21 about the traffic issue that Council President
22 Webb raised, this segment of San Jose Boulevard
23 is operating one grade level of service better
24 than its established level of service. It's
25 currently at a D, and that's even with our
Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 project and even with any reserved trips that
2 are in the system, so there is capacity for
3 this. We have a CCAS, as you -- y'all are
4 familiar with. Concurrency, that is a
5 concurrency reservation that can be converted
6 into a full concurrency reservation
7 certificate. So it -- it is not an area
8 that's -- at least according to the established
9 City's standards, it's not an area that's
10 experienced an unacceptable level of
11 congestion, so --
12 But anyway, we just want to thank the
13 residents, Harbor Acres and Rubin Road, for
14 working with us all the way to the wire. And I
15 know that Councilman Webb and Councilman-Elect
16 Schellenberg had been trying to get us to come
17 to the table and -- as well as Councilman Shad,
18 and appreciate your help.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Ingram.
20 The conditions that you read into the
21 record, do you have those written down in any
22 kind of -- or are they just kind of shorthand
23 or --
24 MR. INGRAM: Yes, sir, they are shorthand,
25 but as soon as I can, I will get them to
Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 Mr. Reingold.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any questions
3 from the committee for Mr. Ingram?
4 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Our next
6 speaker is Paul Harden.
7 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
8 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Chairman, my
9 understanding is, based on -- sorry.
10 Paul Harden, 501 Riverside Avenue.
11 Based on that agreement, the -- Mr. Marks
12 is just going to come up here and announce that
13 understanding.
14 Can I wait and make sure that -- if
15 there's anything other than that, that I can
16 respond at that time?
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
18 MR. HARDEN: Because I don't want to get
19 into a debate since we resolved the issue.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand. All right.
21 MR. HARDEN: Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
23 Any questions for Mr. Harden?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Marks -- let's see, do
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1 I have a card from you?
2 MR. HARDEN: Mr. Crescimbeni, let me say
3 one thing.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
5 MR. HARDEN: Councilman Shad called just
6 before the meeting started. His grandfather
7 passed away in the last hour and he left to be
8 with his mom. He was going to be here tonight.
9 He supports the PUD. This is actually his
10 district, but asked you to consider it on the
11 merits but asked me to explain why he isn't
12 here to --
13 THE CHAIRMAN: He called you?
14 MR. HARDEN: He did call me.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right.
16 MR. HARDEN: I called him and he called me
17 back.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
19 All right. Well, we're sorry to hear that
20 news.
21 Mr. Marks, do you want to begin or --
22 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yeah, I'll just speak
24 briefly.
25 I'm Jeffrey Marks, 3771 Rubin Road.
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1 The consensus of the residents on Harbor
2 Acres and Rubin that have opined and are here
3 is that we agree with the way Tom Ingram read
4 that into the record.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
6 MR. MARKS: Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anything else you
8 want to add or --
9 MR. MARKS: No, thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: So do you support the
11 application, then, with the original conditions
12 and the supplemental five conditions today?
13 MR. MARKS: Yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
15 Any questions from the committee?
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Bateh or Mr. Bateh -- I
18 can't quite read the first name -- are you
19 here?
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, I am, but --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: You're waiving? You don't
22 want to speak?
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Inaudible.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Susie O'Quinn, are
25 you still here?
Diane M. Tropia, Inc., P.O. Box 2375, Jacksonville, FL 32203
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You do not want to
3 speak?
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: No.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Robert O'Quinn.
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I don't want to speak
7 either.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Beth Dunn.
9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: No.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Don't wish to speak?
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Shakes head.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Jean Ludlow, are you
13 still here?
14 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Jean Ludlow, 9252
16 San Jose Boulevard, Number 3101.
17 I'm here only to emphasize the safety
18 issue. I know it's a done deal, but -- I can
19 appreciate the technical language, that this
20 fits the requirements for safety, but tell that
21 to the people -- my neighbors who died trying
22 to get out on San Jose. Tell that to the
23 person who was on San Jose and got hit and was
24 in the hospital for several weeks. And tell
25 that to the person who tried to enter Solano
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1 Grove and had her car totaled, and on and on.
2 Those are human stories, not technical.
3 So I urge you -- and I know this is a
4 State highway, so the City has no
5 responsibility for it, but we really have to do
6 something. You have two lanes, the eastbound
7 lanes that are through lanes, and it is a
8 dangerous place. Obviously, none of you live
9 there or you would know that. And we -- we
10 urge you to try to do something through the
11 Planning Department, if this passes your
12 committee, to have it a safer location.
13 We have lost our neighbors and yet we're
14 being told that it's a safe -- do come out
15 there some day on the way to work or after work
16 and see for yourself.
17 Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Ludlow.
19 Any questions from the committee?
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harden, do you need to
22 come back up or are you satisfied with
23 Mr. Marks' acknowledgment?
24 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
25 MR. HARDEN: I am satisfied.
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1 And let me apologize to Ms. Ludlow because
2 we met with these folks last night and we went
3 through these issues.
4 And just for Ms. Ludlow's benefit, traffic
5 issues as to capacity are dealt with with the
6 concurrency management, but the safety issues
7 are going to be dealt with with both a driveway
8 permit that has to be applied for with the DOT
9 and City traffic, which will both review this.
10 And so the issues she's raising are still
11 subject to approval and review by those folks,
12 and it is our anticipation that the DOT nor the
13 City would approve an unsafe entryway onto the
14 site. We kind of went through that issue in
15 detail last night at our meeting and she wasn't
16 there, and I apologize we didn't give that
17 information to her.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: And you accept all the
19 conditions that were read into the record both
20 by staff and Mr. Ingram?
21 MR. HARDEN: I do, Mr. Crescimbeni.
22 Just to make sure the record is clear,
23 Mr. Ingram is going to incorporate the five
24 additional items that he read tonight into an
25 amended site -- written description dated
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1 6/7/11, so all those are in one document when
2 somebody starts to look for them. So I think
3 the conditions should be amended. Instead of
4 the May written description, it would be
5 subject to an amended written description dated
6 6/7/11, which Mr. Ingram will provide to
7 Mr. Reingold tomorrow sometime.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any questions
9 for Mr. Harden?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
12 Mr. Marks, did you have a follow-up
13 comment?
14 (Mr. Marks approaches the podium.)
15 MR. MARKS: Paul said five. There were
16 more than five. I mean, when you count them
17 off and we say tattoo parlor -- there were more
18 than five, so if we can just say "the
19 enumerated exceptions."
20 MR. HARDEN: I agree. I lumped them as
21 five. Yes, Mr. Marks is correct.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I think Mr. Ingram kind of
23 read them off in five separate waves, if you
24 will, but -- okay. We'll make sure we get that
25 all double-checked.
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1 All right. I have no more speakers'
2 cards. Does anyone else care to address the
3 committee?
4 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
6 the public hearing is closed and we're back in
7 committee.
8 Comments, questions from members?
9 MR. REINGOLD: (Indicating.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
11 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair and the
12 committee as a whole, I would just
13 appreciate -- and I completely respect the way
14 that Mr. Ingram and Mr. Harden have negotiated
15 with the neighborhood. I just wouldn't mind
16 hearing what those additional changes to the
17 written description were again. I've got some
18 ideas on how to change the written description
19 to incorporate them, but I would just
20 respectfully request that I get to hear that
21 again.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
23 Mr. Ingram.
24 I guess this is my real chance to ask the
25 court reporter to read that back from the
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1 record, right, like on TV and stuff, but I
2 guess that doesn't really work in real life.
3 MR. INGRAM: Where is my --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ingram already lost the
5 conditions.
6 MR. INGRAM: I just want to be precise.
7 Okay. The first one -- and I'm going by
8 five, but I agree with Mr. Marks, it's -- you
9 know, it depends on how you count.
10 The first one was no drive-thrus
11 associated with any permitted uses except banks
12 and pharmacies. The second one, no convenience
13 stores. The third, no tattoo parlors,
14 pawnshops, adult entertainment, adult novelty
15 stores, check cashing establishments or
16 Internet cafes. The fourth was that the main
17 shopping center sign shall be limited to
18 15 feet in height. It's currently 20, so
19 that's a fairly easy change in the written
20 description. And then the fifth is no
21 electronically-amplified outdoor sound.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
23 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair to
24 Mr. Ingram, I believe on the signage issue that
25 was C, Signs, subsection 3 -- or subsection 2,
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1 entrance -- shared entrance sign, one shared
2 entrance monument sign, having a maximum
3 square -- maximum sign area of 100 square feet
4 per side and 20 feet in height; is that the one
5 that you were referring to about the height
6 change?
7 MR. INGRAM: Yes, sir, it is.
8 MR. REINGOLD: Okay. And what was that
9 going to?
10 MR. INGRAM: Fifteen.
11 MR. REINGOLD: All right.
12 Through the Chair and to the committee and
13 to the applicant, what I was thinking was -- is
14 on the written description, 1, 2, 3 -- or under
15 2, Uses and Restrictions, there would be a new
16 section E, Prohibited Uses, which would include
17 the first three items that Mr. Ingram had read
18 out, and then on the signage, on C, 2 would be
19 changed from 20 feet to 15 feet, and then 3
20 would just be one additional provision added
21 within the written description that talks about
22 the no amplified outdoor --
23 THE CHAIRMAN: No electronically-amplified
24 outdoor sound.
25 MR. REINGOLD: -- outdoor sound, and
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1 that -- and that's how the written description
2 would be revised to reflect those changes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
4 All right. Anything from the committee,
5 questions, motion?
6 MR. HOLT: Move the amendment.
7 MR. REDMAN: Second.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the amendment by
9 Mr. Holt, second by Mr. Redman.
10 Discussion on the amendment? And that's
11 the amendment to --
12 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: -- include the conditions.
14 All right. Discussion, Mr. Reingold.
15 MR. REINGOLD: Just to clarify, as we talk
16 about the conditions, it's my understanding
17 that the committee's will would be to adopt the
18 Planning Commission -- or the Planning
19 Department conditions as written in your book,
20 except that the date of the written description
21 would change to June 7th, 2011?
22 THE CHAIRMAN: That's what Mr. Holt meant,
23 wasn't it?
24 MR. HOLT: Yes.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any discussion?
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, all those in favor,
3 say yes.
4 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed, say no.
6 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
8 adopted the amendment as --
9 MR. BISHOP: Move the bill as amended.
10 MR. D. BROWN: Second.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the bill as
12 amended by Mr. Bishop, second by Councilman
13 Dick Brown.
14 Discussion?
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot,
17 vote.
18 (Committee ballot opened.)
19 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. R. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
25 (Committee ballot closed.)
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1 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
3 approved item 1, 2010-585, as amended with the
4 conditions and new site plan dated today.
5 Thank you all for coming down this
6 evening. I appreciate it. We haven't seen a
7 big crowd like that in a while.
8 (Inaudible discussion.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, written
10 description of June 7th.
11 All right. Turning to page 4 -- have we
12 already done page 4? No, we haven't.
13 Top of page 4, item 8, 2011-253.
14 Mr. Reingold.
15 And we have a separate book on this item.
16 So if you all brought your books and you want
17 to turn to that, that would be helpful.
18 Mr. Reingold.
19 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, I didn't
20 realize I was marked to speak on this item, but
21 I'd be happy to sort of introduce it.
22 Essentially, this is an appeal of a
23 Planning Commission decision concerning a
24 request in CCG-1 for the ability for retail
25 sales of all alcoholic beverages, including
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1 liquor, beer and wine, for off-premises or --
2 for a property located at 1510 San Marco
3 Boulevard.
4 The Planning Commission had denied this
5 request for the exception, and the applicant
6 has requested an appeal of this item and thus
7 it's before you today.
8 It is my understanding that the applicant
9 has expressed a desire for a deferral. We
10 could either hear that issue first and then
11 move to the merits if the committee so chooses.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
13 MR. REINGOLD: And just one other note,
14 just to kind of give you a little bit brief
15 history is that the Planning Department had
16 originally recommended denial on this item.
17 The Planning Department is certainly capable of
18 explaining their denial. And then the Planning
19 Commission followed that denial or -- and then
20 thus it's before you today.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
22 Does the Planning Department care to offer
23 a report?
24 Mr. Kelly.
25 MR. KELLY: Yes, sir. Thank you.
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1 To the Chair and to the committee, this
2 resolution, 2011-253, again, seeks to appeal
3 the Planning Commission's recommendation of
4 denial for the zoning exception to allow a
5 package store located at 1510 San Marco
6 Boulevard that would allow for the off-premise
7 consumption.
8 There's history to this site. There was a
9 previous request that was denied back in 19- --
10 or, I'm sorry, that was denied back in 1995 for
11 this same site and this same request.
12 There's been a lot of discussion. There
13 were speakers at the Planning Commission in
14 support of the request and there were numerous
15 speakers in opposition of the request.
16 The Department found, in our staff review
17 of this request, again, found to be generally
18 consistent with the recommendation from 1995,
19 which was also for denial. We found it not to
20 be compatible with the character of the area.
21 We felt it was too intense and too intrusive to
22 the residential neighbors on Cedar Street,
23 which is a local road and this had direct
24 access to.
25 So we felt it was just too intense and not
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1 compatible with the surrounding uses. The
2 Planning Commission effectively felt the same
3 way. There's good testimony from the chairman,
4 Mr. Hardesty, as it relates to all the
5 improvements over the past 10, 16 years, since
6 1985, that have gone into the neighborhood.
7 And a lot of the testimony and discussion was
8 about the removal and elimination of some of
9 these real obtrusive uses in the neighborhood
10 over that time frame and -- and that this is
11 kind of, in essence, opening the door again to
12 allow that type of intense use within this
13 neighborhood and, again, felt it would not be
14 appropriate, therefore, again, the Department
15 would ask you to uphold the Commission's
16 recommendation as well as the Department's
17 recommendation of denial.
18 Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
20 Any questions from the committee?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let me also --
23 let the record reflect that Councilmember-Elect
24 Lori Boyer has been with us since the beginning
25 of the meeting, and normally I get her to come
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1 and sit up here.
2 And, Ms. Boyer, I'm sorry, I didn't get
3 you to do that tonight, but we appreciate you
4 being here. And, present company excluded
5 here, you have one of the better attendance
6 records of some of my colleagues. You're at
7 all the committee meetings and I commend you
8 for showing such interest, and I hope you have
9 the same enthusiasm after July 1st. Don't wear
10 yourself out, pace yourself.
11 With that said, this matter is a
12 quasi-judicial matter and anyone that has
13 ex-parte communication to disclose -- and I
14 will begin by doing so.
15 I have an e-mail from Mr. Shad dated
16 today. Councilman Shad is in opposition to the
17 above bill and would like this read into the
18 record at tonight's LUZ meeting as well as
19 marked on the agenda.
20 I also have written communication that
21 I've received from Steve Clark on May 21st;
22 Isabelle Clark on May 23rd; Sue Turner on
23 May 24th; Harold Friedlin on May 24th; Charles
24 Cason, May 25th; John Zollinhoffer, May 26th;
25 Melinda Friedlin on May 25th, and an attachment
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1 from the Friedlins as well.
2 I'll submit all this for the record.
3 And then I had a voicemail message on
4 May 24th from a Nancy Maguire, who stated she
5 opposed the bill. I did not return that call.
6 I had a voicemail message on June 6th from
7 Isaac [sic] Khazal, who identified himself as
8 the applicant. He left a message about -- just
9 that he was calling in about that item. I
10 returned his call today and we spoke about my
11 inclination to not defer this matter. He had
12 requested a deferral through written
13 communication to the Legislative Services'
14 office.
15 And then also I had a phone conversation
16 on June 6th with Charles Cason, just advising
17 him, as a member of the opposition, that a
18 request for a deferral had been made.
19 I think that covers the extent of my
20 ex-parte.
21 Mr. Bishop.
22 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23 Just would like to indicate that I have
24 received numerous e-mails from residents of the
25 area in opposition to this waiver.
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1 And I confess I was not as diligent as our
2 chairman in printing them out, so I don't have
3 them here to read, but I will introduce -- I
4 will enter them into the record.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
6 Anyone else?
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: And I forgot, I've got two
9 more here. Coleman Hawk, written communication
10 on May 31st; and Louise McCreight on May 31st,
11 Ms. Carlucci, Matt Carlucci's mother.
12 All right. With that said and all the
13 ex-parte, we do have a public hearing scheduled
14 this evening, but I guess the first matter
15 is -- we did have a request from the applicant
16 to defer this matter. As I stated earlier,
17 it's the Chair's inclination to proceed,
18 but does any -- do any committee members have
19 comments on the deferral?
20 MR. BISHOP: Yes.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop.
22 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23 I'm not aware of any reason why we should
24 defer. The public hearing has been advertised.
25 Everyone who was interested to speak is --
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1 would be here tonight, so I would be inclined
2 to take it up.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone have an opinion to
4 the contrary on that matter?
5 Councilman Dick Brown.
6 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 I was just thinking, don't we often honor
8 the request of an applicant? I know there must
9 be concern about putting it off, people have
10 come to speak, but quite often that would seem
11 to be a given right to -- to an applicant for
12 whatever reason, but -- so I'm sort of neutral,
13 but I'm -- just a question.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, I can't
15 specifically recall. I think I've probably
16 deferred items at the request of applicants and
17 opponents. My problem with this was the short
18 notice of the request, and generally I prefer
19 to make deferrals well in advance so that all
20 people can be notified prior to the meeting.
21 I'm not a fan of last-minute requests, so --
22 MR. D. BROWN: That's a good answer.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, if the
24 committee has no problem proceeding --
25 Mr. Redman, did you want to weigh in on that?
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1 MR. REINGOLD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 I know that we probably have deferred
3 these in the past, but this actually has been
4 an ongoing thing for many years apparently and
5 to defer it at this point would just prolong
6 the misery for the -- everybody concerned here,
7 so I think we --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, thank
9 you, sir.
10 With that, we have a public hearing
11 scheduled this evening. The public hearing is
12 open. We have two speakers' cards supporting
13 the measure and several in opposition. We'll
14 hear from the proponents first --
15 Mr. Reingold, did you want to speak on the
16 matter?
17 MR. REINGOLD: Sir, I actually don't --
18 I'm not part of either the opposition or the
19 support of the matter. I just wasn't sure if
20 the committee just wanted to at least hear
21 maybe one -- you know, 30 seconds or a minute
22 as to what the request for the deferral was all
23 about before making that decision, but that was
24 just a recommendation from --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We will take
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1 your recommendation.
2 Mr. -- is it Khazal?
3 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Essa Khazal.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: If you would, would you
6 just explain why you requested the deferral?
7 And then I'll open up the public hearing for
8 your comments relating to the bill and to give
9 you your full amount of time. We're not going
10 to put you on the clock at the moment --
11 MR. KHAZAL: Actually, I have a gentleman,
12 he's been helping me, his name is Charlie Mann.
13 At the last minute he said, you know, I can't
14 help you out, so what you recommend? You know,
15 I had to hire a lawyer because this matter need
16 to -- some councilman. And I think I e-mail
17 you why -- what the reason is, because I can't
18 find, the last minute, you know, a lawyer.
19 And, actually, I call Mr. Paul Harden
20 also. He had some problem, so he don't call me
21 back, so that's why we have -- we don't have
22 any lawyers, so that's why I need to defer the
23 matter.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you retain the services
25 of Mr. Mann?
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1 MR. KHAZAL: Yeah.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Did he represent you at the
3 Planning Commission?
4 MR. KHAZAL: No.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: When did you retain
6 Mr. Mann?
7 MR. KHAZAL: What happened is, you know,
8 he has problem with his mother. You know,
9 that's -- he has -- so he had some problem.
10 That's why he can't represent me, so --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: When did you have a
12 conversation with Mr. Mann? When did you try
13 to --
14 MR. KHAZAL: With Charlie Mann?
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Uh-huh.
16 MR. KHAZAL: Actually, Charlie Mann, we
17 already talk about it and he advised me to have
18 a councilman because he can't help me with that
19 one.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Have a what?
21 MR. KHAZAL: Councilman -- I mean, I'm
22 sorry, lawyers.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: A lawyer. Okay.
24 But when did you speak to Mr. Mann? Was
25 it a month ago, two months ago?
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1 MR. KHAZAL: Friday.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Friday. All right, sir.
3 Any questions from the committee?
4 MR. R. BROWN: (Indicating.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Councilman Reggie Brown.
6 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair --
7 and I'm not opposed to -- because I do
8 understand the seriousness of the nature when
9 you're looking for legal representation because
10 apparently it -- you know, it warrants that
11 from your vantage point.
12 I wanted to find out from -- I guess that
13 would be the opposition, whether or not they
14 would have any objections because he's now
15 seeking legal representation. That would
16 pretty much kind of guide my position in terms
17 of whether or not we should honor it because I
18 would hate for any citizen to feel that they
19 are not given the time that's required. I
20 mean, we're only talking about two weeks and
21 we'll be back here at it, and maybe they have
22 an opportunity to vet the situation and we
23 won't have opposition.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold, is there a
25 way -- I mean, do we just -- is there a way to
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1 accommodate Mr. Brown's request? I mean, can
2 we just -- a show of hands or --
3 MR. REINGOLD: You could certainly look to
4 the audience to see if they may want to choose
5 somebody from their group who may wish to
6 address the issue of their position on the
7 deferral.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Who's here in opposition to
9 this bill? Raise your hand, please.
10 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Comply.)
11 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you choosing this
13 gentleman, then?
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Your name and
16 address for the record, sir.
17 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
18 My name is Niels Murphy. My address is
19 949 Elder Lane. I also own the property
20 directly across the street from the address at
21 issue.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You'll need to speak into
23 the microphone --
24 MR. MURPHY: Can you hear me?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you able to get that,
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1 Diane?
2 THE REPORTER: Yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Speak into the
4 microphone because we are recording this and
5 the court reporter needs to be able to enter it
6 into the record.
7 MR. MURPHY: This issue has been pending
8 for quite sometime. Originally, the
9 application was denied in 1995. The Planning
10 Department denied the application -- supported
11 the denial of the application. The Commission
12 denied the application. This is an appeal
13 that's pending.
14 I know -- not only do I live in the
15 neighborhood with small children -- which a lot
16 of these people live in the neighborhood. It's
17 a very important issue to them, but why we
18 would suffer prejudice and myself in particular
19 and my law partner is -- we purchased the
20 property directly across the street from this
21 property --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you comment more
23 towards the request for the deferral other than
24 the merits --
25 MR. MURPHY: Yes. This is directly on
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1 point.
2 We are making a decision -- we own a law
3 firm. We employ seven lawyers. We have
4 multiple staff. We -- the decision for us to
5 move forward -- the vision of the City on this,
6 on San Marco Boulevard -- if you know where
7 this is, it's directly across from Peterbrooke
8 chocolate, and our -- we're on the -- the
9 corner there.
10 Our decision is to invest millions of
11 dollars into the property directly across the
12 street, and I can assure you that we will not
13 be doing that if this -- if this organization
14 decides to overturn the Planning Department's
15 recommendation. We need to make decisions on
16 that with financing, with applications for
17 permitting. We have a deviation request
18 currently pending. All those issues are
19 proceeding. We have our plans. We're ready to
20 go.
21 I don't know how long this would be
22 deferred, but we would seriously suffer
23 prejudice. We've hired lawyers, engineers,
24 architects, and we would suffer prejudice if
25 this particular issue were deferred any longer
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1 because I can assure you, we're not going to be
2 bringing our Fortune 500 clients to that
3 neighborhood and spending millions of dollars
4 if a liquor store is going to be across the
5 street from us.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Murphy.
7 Any questions from the committee?
8 MR. R. BROWN: Yes, I have a --
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown.
10 Mr. Murphy.
11 MR. MURPHY: Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Could you come back,
13 please?
14 MR. MURPHY: (Complies.)
15 MR. R. BROWN: Yeah. Through the Chair to
16 Mr. Murphy, you are an attorney?
17 MR. MURPHY: Yes, I am an attorney.
18 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. We're talking
19 approximately two weeks is what my
20 understanding is, if we were to defer today, to
21 give this gentleman an opportunity to seek
22 legal representation. I'm not understanding
23 you to say that -- because we're not implying
24 one way or the other which way we're going to
25 support this particular legislation.
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1 MR. MURPHY: Well, he's had -- he's had a
2 significant amount of time to retain counsel.
3 It's not like he just learned about this issue
4 yesterday. This has been pending for months.
5 The appeal has been pending for months. He's
6 had a clear opportunity to -- it's not like he
7 wasn't aware of what the issues were, and he's
8 had an opportunity to retain counsel.
9 It's also not a situation where he had
10 counsel and at the last minute his counsel
11 said, "Oh, my God, I can't be there." This is
12 a situation where he hasn't taken any effort to
13 actually retain counsel and prepare for the
14 hearing.
15 The other issue is I don't see a lot of
16 legal issues before you. This is really a
17 factual issue and the issues for this appeal
18 are whether or not this type of use, given the
19 family environment and the vision of the City,
20 is appropriate. I don't see a lot of legal
21 issues raised here or legal objections that
22 have been asserted in the appeal.
23 So while not, you know, representing him
24 or commenting on what the legal effect is, to
25 me, as a property owner and a businessman,
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1 don't really see that -- the need for a
2 deferral.
3 MR. R. BROWN: Mr. Reingold, do we have
4 any legal issues here that we're pending
5 tonight?
6 MR. REINGOLD: To the -- through the Chair
7 to Councilmember Brown, I guess some of the
8 research I was doing today was kind of looking
9 at what the due process rights were for
10 applicants and for parties in quasi-judicial
11 type areas.
12 Simply put, I didn't see any legal issues
13 as long as the applicant and the opposition had
14 their ability to sort of explain what their
15 request for the deferral was and why and then
16 the other side had the ability to rebut it.
17 Essentially, an applicant would have the
18 ability to present evidence, cross-examine
19 witnesses -- although in this case they've
20 waived that right without the request for a
21 formal hearing -- and be informed of all the
22 facts upon which the commission acts.
23 And as the opponents stated, it's the same
24 decision-making process that goes through at
25 the Planning Commission. And it's my
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1 understanding that this gentleman spoke at
2 Planning Commission, so he's very well familiar
3 with what the Planning Department position was,
4 the Planning Commission's position was, and
5 what all the facts and what all the criteria
6 are.
7 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. My last question is
8 to this gentleman. Do you feel competent
9 enough to represent yourself tonight?
10 MR. KHAZAL: No. Especially there's a
11 couple of lawyers down here now.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Speak into the microphone,
13 please.
14 MR. R. BROWN: The mic.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Speak into the microphone.
16 MR. KHAZAL: I'm sorry.
17 Especially there is couple of legal
18 counsel --
19 MR. R. BROWN: Did you say no? Is that
20 what I'm --
21 MR. KHAZAL: Yeah.
22 MR. R. BROWN: You do not feel competent
23 tonight?
24 MR. KHAZAL: No, sir.
25 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. No other questions.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
2 Mr. Bishop.
3 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 Mr. Khazal.
5 MR. KHAZAL: Yes, sir.
6 MR. BISHOP: The Planning Commission
7 issued their denial order on March 24th. At
8 what point did you then attempt to try to
9 secure counsel to help you on this?
10 MR. KHAZAL: Oh, actually down here -- I
11 think Planning Commission, they say, you know,
12 it's going to make a lot of traffic if --
13 MR. BISHOP: No, no. I'm not asking about
14 the issue as to why they made a denial.
15 The denial is dated March 24th. That was
16 a little over two months ago.
17 MR. KHAZAL: Two months ago.
18 MR. BISHOP: When did you first attempt to
19 try to secure legal counsel to help you with
20 this?
21 MR. KHAZAL: Actually, when I received
22 the certified letter from the City. You know,
23 you want to see the certified letter? I
24 started looking for a councilman.
25 MR. BISHOP: Okay. Just a second ago you
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1 said you talked with Charlie Mann last Friday;
2 is that --
3 MR. KHAZAL: No. The last time I talked
4 to him was on Friday when he advised me to hire
5 a lawyer.
6 MR. REINGOLD: Microphone.
7 MR. KHAZAL: Sorry.
8 I talked to him the last time Friday, you
9 know, when he advised me to hire a lawyer.
10 MR. BISHOP: Well, I'm -- I guess I'm
11 still not clear as to when you were -- I guess
12 I'm having a little bit of trouble here in
13 trying to understand how you -- what you did to
14 try to find -- I find it hard to believe you
15 couldn't find a lawyer in two months.
16 MR. KHAZAL: Charlie Mann, he tried to
17 help me out, you know, and the last minute, you
18 know, Friday, last -- you know, three, four
19 days ago, he said, I can't help out because you
20 have to hire a lawyer. That's the last time,
21 you know --
22 MR. BISHOP: So is that the first time
23 somebody suggested to you to hire a lawyer?
24 MR. KHAZAL: Yes, sir.
25 MR. BISHOP: So what did you do in the
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1 intervening two months here?
2 MR. KHAZAL: That's what I say. I was --
3 you know, Charlie Mann tried to help me out
4 with that.
5 MR. BISHOP: So Charlie Mann was trying to
6 help you out for two months before he said he
7 couldn't do it on Friday?
8 MR. KHAZAL: It's not two months.
9 Actually, a month and a half.
10 MR. BISHOP: Well, March 24th was two
11 months and a week ago.
12 MR. KHAZAL: Well, actually, we apply, I
13 think, April the 7th for the appeal.
14 MR. BISHOP: Well, the order issuing a
15 denial was on March 24th. That's the document
16 that I'm looking at right here. So at that
17 point --
18 MR. KHAZAL: Actually, I was trying, you
19 know, to receive the -- the study from the
20 commissioner, to see what's -- why they deny
21 it. So then, you know, we went and appeal.
22 MR. BISHOP: Well, I guess --
23 MR. KHAZAL: So it took time, you know, to
24 see why they denied that case and then, you
25 know, we start looking for a -- lawyers, then I
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1 spoke to Charlie Mann and he will try to help
2 me out. And then the last minute he said, you
3 know, I can't help you out because, you know,
4 you have to hire a lawyer. So that's why, you
5 know, it took us --
6 MR. BISHOP: So how long -- what period of
7 time was Charlie Mann attempting to help you
8 out to find a lawyer?
9 MR. KHAZAL: Try to help me out, Charlie
10 Mann?
11 MR. BISHOP: You said you've been working
12 with Charlie Mann, who was trying to help you
13 find an attorney --
14 MR. KHAZAL: Friday -- you know, last
15 Friday, he try to help me out to find another
16 lawyer.
17 MR. BISHOP: Okay. So he tried to help
18 you on -- he tried to help you on Friday or was
19 he trying to help you prior to Friday and
20 Friday is when he called you?
21 MR. KHAZAL: Prior to Friday he was
22 helping me out; you know, he was going to
23 present a case for me. After Friday, he said,
24 I can't help you out. You have to hire a
25 lawyer.
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1 MR. BISHOP: Okay. When did you contact
2 Mr. Mann to ask his assistance on this case?
3 MR. KHAZAL: When?
4 MR. BISHOP: When.
5 MR. KHAZAL: Monday.
6 MR. BISHOP: A week ago Monday.
7 Okay. What did you do in the previous six
8 weeks prior to that?
9 MR. KHAZAL: Actually -- okay. Let me
10 tell you the real story. I try to talk to Paul
11 Harden. The gentleman was here a while ago.
12 And the gentleman, he was so busy, so someone
13 tell me, you know, about Charlie Mann. Charlie
14 Mann, he tried to help me out. And that
15 gentleman, you know, he said, I can't help you
16 out; you know, you have to hire a lawyer.
17 That's the real story, you know, about what
18 happened with us.
19 MR. BISHOP: Well --
20 MR. KHAZAL: But --
21 MR. BISHOP: Okay. Thank you.
22 MR. KHAZAL: Okay.
23 MR. BISHOP: Mr. Chairman, I'm not hearing
24 there was any real serious effort here to -- on
25 behalf of the applicant to find counsel on this
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1 for over two months.
2 MR. KHAZAL: Actually --
3 MR. BISHOP: What I'm hearing just sounds
4 kind of like a delaying issue here. That's
5 something we just need to -- we just need to
6 take this up.
7 Thank you.
8 MR. KHAZAL: It's not easy to find a
9 lawyer in this town, you know, just put it that
10 way.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
12 MR. BISHOP: Mr. Chairman, there's --
13 there are pages and pages and pages of lawyers
14 in the phone book in Jacksonville. I find it
15 very hard to believe that it's hard to find a
16 lawyer.
17 MR. KHAZAL: Well, it's not specialized
18 with exceptions, unfortunately.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
20 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 Have you --
22 MR. KHAZAL: Yes, sir.
23 MR. REDMAN: -- attempted to actually get
24 a contract with a lawyer to help you with this
25 situation?
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1 MR. KHAZAL: That's why I spoke to
2 Mr. John, if he could give me another, you
3 know, couple weeks or three week, you know, to
4 find a good lawyer. Actually, I find another
5 lawyer now. His name -- actually, I got it.
6 His name, Tom Anger [sic].
7 MR. REDMAN: I read through some of your
8 previous attempts to do this, and it appears
9 that in these other cases you did not have an
10 attorney represent you then as well, right?
11 MR. KHAZAL: No, but I --
12 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
13 MR. KHAZAL: -- spoke early in the morning
14 with Tom and he were willing to, you know, take
15 over that case.
16 MR. REDMAN: Well, it appears to me that,
17 you know, you're just biding time and --
18 MR. KHAZAL: I'm not biding time.
19 MR. REDMAN: -- but, you know, I think we
20 need to go ahead and vote on this.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
22 Mr. Brown, you were on. You dropped off.
23 Did you want to --
24 MR. D. BROWN: When we're back in
25 committee, I'll --
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any other
2 comments or questions?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold, do you have
5 any words of wisdom?
6 MR. REINGOLD: (Shakes head.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: What?
8 All right. We're kind of in the hearing.
9 Do we want to proceed with this? Anybody
10 object to proceeding?
11 Mr. Brown.
12 MR. R. BROWN: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's
13 not that I -- well, I do have some reservations
14 and I do understand delay tactics, but I have a
15 greater concern because it's going to cost this
16 gentleman money to obtain or acquire an
17 attorney. And we're going to -- as a body,
18 going to have to make the vote on it. I mean,
19 it's more of a legal question.
20 If we proceed tonight -- because it sounds
21 as though he's still going to acquire an
22 attorney. And if it's denied, he would have to
23 wait one year, at least one year before
24 bringing it back towards -- before this
25 commission or -- Mr. Kelly.
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1 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair to
2 Councilmember Brown. If the issue is the
3 one-year wait on refiling an application, it --
4 it's kind of awkward because -- and I probably
5 should have looked at this issue.
6 He's made a request for an exception.
7 There's not only just a one-year bar, but
8 there's just a general principle as to -- if
9 you can't demonstrate how things have changed
10 in that area or your request has changed,
11 you're barred until that point that there is
12 actually an ability to demonstrate a change.
13 If he came in and applied two years from
14 now and said, "I want to apply for an exception
15 for this type of liquor use," the Planning
16 Department would accept that application, they
17 would take it to the Planning Commission. And
18 the first question the Planning Commission
19 would have to ask is -- this looks like the
20 same application, it sounds like the same
21 application. Has anything changed? And if
22 they found that there was no change, they'd
23 have to say, "I'm sorry, you're denied based
24 upon the principles of what we call
25 res judicata."
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1 And so that principle is always out there.
2 And so if there's no demonstrated change, they
3 would be barred for -- until there is a change,
4 and that's the purpose of providing certainty
5 to an area.
6 MR. R. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, with that
7 being said, then I would have to object to
8 proceed tonight.
9 I understand it's time sensitive for those
10 that oppose this particular application. I do
11 believe if we hold the applicant to a time
12 line, that way those that -- that's in
13 opposition or have future plans for the
14 property across the street can proceed. I
15 mean, I wouldn't want to leave it out there
16 where he can come whenever he says that it's
17 ready.
18 I mean, either -- either you establish a
19 contract with an attorney and two weeks from
20 now we move forward with it one way, up or
21 down, but I would hate to be responsible for
22 moving forward tonight when he stood before us
23 and said that he's uncomfortable.
24 And we can say that maybe it is a delay
25 tactic; however, when we think about justice
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1 and fairness in terms of time -- I think we're
2 talking two weeks. This is what I see. And we
3 can vet this situation out, come back before
4 us, and we can vote it up or down in two weeks.
5 We do have -- it's not like we're not going to
6 have another committee meeting before we go on
7 break.
8 So if -- if the applicant feels that he
9 can acquire an attorney and be back before us
10 in two weeks, then I would be in favor of that.
11 I would not want to be responsible for setting
12 up a situation as Mr. Dylan has just explained
13 to us.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, would you like
15 to offer a motion, then, to defer?
16 MR. R. BROWN: Yes, I would. I would like
17 to offer a motion to defer for two weeks.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Councilman
19 Reggie Brown to defer.
20 Is there a second to that motion?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. That motion
23 dies for a lack of a second.
24 Thank you, Mr. Brown.
25 Dick Brown, did you have a comment?
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1 MR. D. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, thank you.
2 I was going to -- if there was a vote, I
3 couldn't support it because after listening --
4 we'd be doing him a disservice if he -- if we
5 gave him some encouragement to come back in a
6 couple of weeks with an attorney and he spends
7 a lot of money. There's already significant
8 neighborhood opposition and it's failed in the
9 past and it's -- as Mr. Reingold has said, it's
10 basically the same request. So I think the --
11 we'd be doing the neighbors a disservice as
12 well as the applicant because he'd spend good
13 money and it's not going to pass. That's my
14 prediction.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
16 All right. We are in the public hearing
17 and we will begin the public hearing process.
18 Again, we're going to take up the
19 proponents of the legislation first and then
20 we'll hear from the opponents.
21 I have two speakers' cards, Essa Khazal --
22 MR. KHAZAL: Khazal (pronouncing.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I just need you to state
24 your name and address for the record. We're
25 going to put three minutes on the clock. You
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1 see this little light tree here in front of me?
2 It turns green and then it -- when you get
3 about half way through, it will turn yellow.
4 And when it turns red, your time is up.
5 So begin by stating your name and address
6 for the record and then we will start the
7 clock.
8 MR. KHAZAL: Okay. Start now?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Name and address for the
10 record.
11 MR. KHAZAL: Essa Khazal, 9452 Kells Road,
12 Jacksonville, Florida 32257.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
14 This is your time to address the committee
15 with regard to why you want the committee to
16 support the appeal.
17 MR. KHAZAL: Okay. First, you know, I've
18 been in that location for 19 years. Our
19 neighborhood has been changed dramatically. We
20 have four bar and restaurant. They serve beer,
21 wine and liquor. There's Bistro Aix, there is
22 Sherwood, there is Hurricane, there is Wings,
23 also there is Mediterranean restaurant, and
24 there is Q.
25 Our, you know, street, it change from
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1 residential to commercial. And long time ago,
2 when we apply, we have church close to us and
3 school close to us. Now there's no church and
4 there's no school.
5 And I brought police report from different
6 liquor stores and, plus, I own a liquor store
7 on Atlantic Boulevard. Most of the people
8 think, you know, we're going to attract a lot
9 of homeless people to town. Unfortunately, I
10 have a liquor store and I been succeed and
11 successful. I never have problem with the
12 neighborhood. And we doing very good down
13 there. And there's a lot of liquor stores.
14 You know, they never have problem.
15 I already sell beer and wine in my store.
16 We've been down there 19 years and we never
17 have problem. We never call police, you know.
18 And I'm going to show you these two reports
19 from two different neighborhood. They have a
20 liquor store. One of them in Riverside and the
21 other one in Lakewood. It's not far away from
22 us, like three miles away from our store.
23 Unfortunately, I know San Marco
24 Preservation, they think, you know, I'm going
25 to turn the neighborhood upside down and I'm
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1 going to turn it to a low-class area.
2 Actually, it will not turn that way because,
3 like -- you know, I already spend over $100,000
4 to remodel my store. And I've been there for,
5 like I say, 19 years old [sic]. We never have
6 problem with the neighborhood.
7 And I'm going to show you two different
8 police report from different area, and they
9 never have a problem like most people say.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
11 Any questions from the committee?
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I see no one.
14 Thank you, sir.
15 Our next speaker will be speak --
16 MR. KHAZAL: Mounirah.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: -- Mounirah Mashour.
18 I'm sorry.
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: That's okay, sir.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sensitive to
21 mispronunciation of names, as you can imagine
22 with my last name, but --
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: You did good anyway.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, thank
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1 you.
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Mounirah
3 Mashour. They call me Mary, most of San Marco
4 people. I live at 5530 Hickson Road.
5 I've been employed at this store for
6 almost six-and-a-half years, and I'm running it
7 mostly.
8 I do know most of San Marco people. I
9 even do know them by names, and I love them so
10 much. Yes, I'm not part of the San Marco
11 Preservation. I would love to be, but I work
12 so hard in that store, trying to make it the
13 best store ever to serve those fine people.
14 I didn't see what's the reason that can,
15 you know, stop us from having the liquor store.
16 Having a liquor store, it's not a bad thing in
17 the area.
18 I know San Marco has the name of
19 high-class area. And I think, in my opinion,
20 San Marco has to have one of a kind, as a
21 pharmacy, convenience store, liquor store,
22 supermarket, to have all that in San Marco to
23 be a -- a city or -- you know, all the complete
24 things to complete it, so --
25 And I don't think the liquor, that's going
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1 to affect any of the areas. And if gentleman
2 say that we have kids and we worry, I have
3 kids. I worry about my kids. And we decided,
4 if we have the liquor store, we can separate
5 the convenient from the liquor, which is -- we
6 have a separate entrance for the liquor.
7 That's for the adult people to go in and buy
8 what they want. It's completely [sic] from the
9 other convenience store where we have the other
10 grocery to people or to the kids to go and buy
11 whatever they want.
12 And every -- if they worried about
13 homeless people come to the area, we are none
14 of the people that -- you know, me, personally,
15 when I work at the store, every time that a
16 homeless guy come to the store, I follow him
17 outside, making sure that he's not going to
18 hang out in the area. And if he did, I know
19 that I have to call the police on them. I try
20 to make it clear all the time and -- and, you
21 know, not to let them hang out in the area.
22 And, I mean, we are so excited that we're
23 going to have very big building in front of us
24 and excited that we're going to have more
25 business in there, and we would love to have
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1 their business. I'm so sad that -- how come I
2 never seen any of you in my store, just as a
3 convenience?
4 So, I mean, I don't know. I'm trying so
5 hard, really, to -- and I promise and I'm
6 willing to negotiate with them to see whatever
7 they please them, we will do. I do not mind.
8 Whatever they want us to do, we will do, if
9 that will give us the opportunity to have the
10 liquor license in the store.
11 If the -- selling the liquor on Sunday,
12 it's not allowed, we'll do that. We have no
13 problem. If they don't want us to sell the
14 liquor after 12 o'clock midnight, sure. Our
15 store's hour from 7:00 in the morning till
16 10:00 at night. If we can open late, till
17 midnight and we're going to be closing, so
18 that's not going to be any harm to anybody.
19 Bistro Aix, they do serve the liquor in
20 the restaurant, which is the people drink and
21 eat, get drunk, and God knows what's going to
22 happen to them when they drive to their houses,
23 but we're going to sell them the liquor. They
24 are going to take it home, stay home to drink,
25 so there is no harm. I mean, how can they
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1 allow Bistro Aix to have the liquor? We don't
2 allow anybody else to have it, which is --
3 I'm sure that there is no harm that's
4 going to be done, and we will try our best.
5 Whatever please you guys, folks, whatever
6 please you, whatever you want us to
7 negotiate --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Ma'am, please address the
9 committee. You need to speak into the
10 microphone.
11 MS. MASHOUR: Yes, sir. I'm sorry.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: And you need to wrap up
13 because you --
14 MS. MASHOUR: Whatever they want us to do
15 to -- to have the liquor license, we will do.
16 I mean, I do not mind. They can give me an
17 options, tell me you have to do this, you have
18 to do this, we will do it. I know. That's San
19 Marco Preservation, the people, they run this
20 area, and they trying to keep it nice and clean
21 and high class. I would love to keep it the
22 same way.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, thank you for your
24 comments.
25 Any questions from the committee?
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
3 ma'am.
4 MS. MASHOUR: Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Khazal, we will hear
6 from the opponents now, but I will give you an
7 opportunity to close at the end. So you may
8 want to pay attention to -- careful attention
9 to what's being stated by the opposition and
10 address their comments when you have a chance
11 to come back up and close.
12 Okay? Is that all right?
13 MR. KHAZAL: All right.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I have several
15 speakers' cards in opposition. We'll start
16 with Neils Murphy, followed by Charles Cason.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you.
19 Neils Murphy again. I'll try to be brief.
20 The City had a vision for San Marco
21 Boulevard, and that was to spend millions of
22 dollars, work with the Planning Department, and
23 you can already see that vision coming to
24 realization. I mean, the palm trees look
25 fantastic, the streets are being redone, and
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1 you can already see the businesses -- just this
2 week, businesses are repainting their
3 storefronts. Everyone's improving the
4 commercial sector along that street. And by
5 potentially allowing a liquor store, a package
6 store, you're really impeding that vision
7 because, as we all know, the liquor store is
8 going to bring a totally different element.
9 Next to the food store that's applying for
10 this, there is an empty lot. And although it
11 was represented these people would just get in
12 their cars and take the liquor home, I think we
13 all know that's not what's going to happen.
14 What's going to happen is they're going to take
15 it in the brown bag and they're going to sit in
16 the parking lot and they're going to drink.
17 And there was also representation that
18 there are no schools within the area, which
19 surprises me because Landon Middle School,
20 which is the academic magnet for this area, is
21 literally hundreds of yards away. Also,
22 there's a Montessori school within walking
23 distance, so that -- that's just not an
24 appropriate representation.
25 I know that my law firm, we've spent a
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1 great deal of time and money and relied upon
2 the City's vision along that corridor to buy a
3 dilapidated building across the street that we
4 plan to spend a significant amount of time and
5 money and build a law practice there, which we
6 will then bring -- we do banking and securities
7 litigation, and we represent banks and
8 financial institutions. We also represent
9 manufacturers. We have over 20 Fortune 500
10 company clients. They will come to our
11 business, but they're not going to come to our
12 business because our business is not going to
13 be there if there's a liquor store across the
14 street.
15 So our business is trying to be in tune
16 with the vision of the City to spend the money
17 to get the appropriate commercial sector up and
18 running, to bring tax dollars and revenue to
19 the city, consistent with that vision.
20 I'm also a homeowner in the neighborhood,
21 and I have small children. And I can just tell
22 you, just from a personal perspective, that I
23 would seriously oppose a package liquor store.
24 Having a restaurant serving liquor is very
25 different than having a brown bag package
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1 store.
2 Thank you for your time.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Murphy.
4 Any questions from the committee?
5 MR. R. BROWN: Yes, Mr. Chair.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Councilman Reggie Brown.
7 MR. R. BROWN: Through the Chair to
8 Mr. Murphy, excellent segue. I was going to
9 ask you, if you could, for this body, from your
10 vantage point, talk about the difference
11 between off-premise consumption versus
12 on-premise consumption because I want to make
13 sure that we are understanding and talking
14 about the same thing, if you can --
15 MR. MURPHY: Well, they're very different
16 from my vantage point.
17 I mean, it -- Bistro Aix, we've all -- I
18 don't know if y'all have been there. It's a
19 very nice restaurant. All these restaurants
20 that have come to the area, they're a
21 controlled environment. They're being
22 monitored on a minute-by-minute basis by the
23 servers, whereas a drive-up package store --
24 they're even -- I didn't even realize, they're
25 talking about creating a different door now, so
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1 this is definitely going to be drive-up --
2 they're probably going to have concurrency
3 issues with traffic, people driving up,
4 grabbing a package of liquor, drinking it in
5 the car, drinking it in the parking lot. It's
6 a totally different environment.
7 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Mr. Murphy, then,
8 we -- it's safe to say that it's an assumption
9 with an off-premise establishment that one
10 would drink after purchasing liquor, but it's
11 not an assumption that one would drink on an
12 on-premises establishment?
13 MR. MURPHY: Well, I --
14 MR. R. BROWN: Would you agree with that?
15 MR. MURPHY: I think there's absolutely a
16 presumption that if you go to a restaurant and
17 you buy liquor, you're going to drink it there,
18 if that's what you're saying, versus taking it
19 off site.
20 Now, I'll let my law partner, Geddes
21 Anderson, who was a State Attorney, tell you
22 what he thinks about people who buy liquor at
23 liquor stores and what they typically do and
24 where they consume it. I'm not an expert in
25 that area.
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1 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Well, we're not here
2 really to assume or take the position on
3 assuming that just because one will stop at a
4 liquor store that he or she will be
5 irresponsible to open up the package of
6 whatever they purchase and start drinking. We
7 would hope that the reason that they went to a
8 package store was to take it with them to their
9 destination.
10 And so as I was listening to you talk
11 about the vision of San Marco -- I can tell you
12 that a Publix is coming there. They sell
13 liquor. I can tell you that -- you talk about
14 Landon Middle School --
15 MR. MURPHY: But they're going to have to
16 apply for a liquor license. I don't think that
17 Publix, just because they're Publix, gets a
18 liquor license, but --
19 MR. R. BROWN: But what I'm talking about
20 is the future of San Marco --
21 MR. MURPHY: Yes.
22 MR. R. BROWN: -- and if you just allow me
23 to finish.
24 We have restaurants in that area. I'll be
25 honest with you, I'm not a huge proponent one
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1 way or the other. And I do listen to the
2 residents. That's something that I believe,
3 that we, as a body, need to listen to our
4 constituents, but I think that it's unfair to
5 send a message publicly that we have citizens
6 within this city, will go to an off-premise
7 liquor store with intent and drinking it -- it
8 happens all the time, but I don't think we
9 should take that position and put it before our
10 community.
11 One can easily take the position that if
12 you walk into Hurricane, Bistro, and if you
13 decide to have a drink, that our law
14 enforcement officers are not equipped to sit
15 outside of these establishments and determine
16 who has had more than their share of alcohol.
17 Now, that's a fact. We cannot do that.
18 So my position tonight is that -- although
19 we are moving forward with this, I think that
20 we're being unfair, and I like to be fair
21 across the board. If we have an issue with a
22 particular establishment -- this is not
23 reasons -- I mean, if you don't want to come to
24 San Marco because of a liquor store, you might
25 as well pack up and leave now because they're
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1 selling liquor all around you. If it's because
2 of the model of the building is not designed to
3 the standard that San Marco is moving in the
4 direction of, that's -- that's another
5 conversation, but to use it as an argument,
6 consumption on-site versus off-site and what
7 it's going to do for the community, how
8 dangerous it is for our kids, I don't think
9 that's fair. And I just wanted to make sure
10 that we all tonight know that that is not the
11 case.
12 And if we're going to deny it, let's deny
13 it on the basis of whatever we're going to deny
14 for, but not under the basis or the premise
15 that consumption is going to -- consumption off
16 site is going to destroy our -- the fabric of
17 the San Marco community. I just don't see
18 that.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. MURPHY: Was that a question?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
22 Any other questions from the committee?
23 MR. MURPHY: Was that a question or a
24 statement?
25 MR. R. BROWN: Well, it was just a
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1 conclusion from your statement about
2 consumption on site and off site.
3 MR. MURPHY: If you'd like me to respond,
4 I can.
5 MR. R. BROWN: No, it's not necessary.
6 Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Murphy.
8 Our next speaker is Charles Cason,
9 followed by Nancy Maguire.
10 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Charles Cason. I
12 live at 1119 River Oaks Road in San Marco.
13 There are many reasons for denying the
14 permit to take out liquor, but I'll only cover
15 one of them. In this area, they have a large
16 gathering of the Alcohol [sic] Anonymous. They
17 have a two-story building in this area. It's
18 open in the daytime. They have a lounge where
19 the people can go there and hang out, where
20 they can get coffee and sandwiches. They have
21 an upstairs where they have the meetings. In
22 addition to that, the Al-Anon meets in this
23 area. And I just think it would be -- not be
24 proper to put out another enticement to these
25 people who are trying to recover their lives.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Cason.
2 Any questions from the committee?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Nancy Maguire,
5 followed by Jane Friedlin.
6 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Maguire --
8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Do I go ahead?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: -- your name and address,
10 please.
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Nancy Maguire, 1039
12 River Oaks Road, Jacksonville, 32207.
13 I'm from a family of five. We live in
14 San Marco, and I have a different approach why
15 I don't want it.
16 I'm a stay-home mom, lived in the
17 neighborhood for 14 years, and have three young
18 girls. We are a walking neighborhood. We're
19 also a running neighborhood. The River Run
20 runs right through our area. Many people come
21 to our neighborhood, believe it or not, just to
22 walk their dogs or walk the neighborhood.
23 So as far as I'm concerned, I am -- I have
24 three young girls. I feel like -- you put a
25 package store or whatever you want to call it,
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1 it is to the detriment of the neighborhood.
2 When we walk, we are picking up -- right now
3 we're picking up mostly beer bottles. I live
4 off of River Oaks, and there's -- that's
5 usually what we find in the park. It's not
6 Coca-Cola bottles, but it's beer bottles. So I
7 can only imagine the elements that are going to
8 be added to beer bottles on the route.
9 In addition, we've lived in our
10 neighborhood for 14 years. Well, it's a pretty
11 safe neighborhood, but it's not totally safe.
12 Three weeks ago, my car was broken into. And
13 it more than likely -- the police officers are
14 checking into it because three cars were broken
15 into. It was probably somebody on foot looking
16 for change, taking CDs, whatever they can find
17 and, you know, getting some sort of money out
18 of it. So I'm concerned for the security and
19 safety of our area.
20 I feel like if it was a -- if the store
21 that he has there would sell some high-end
22 sandwiches, trust me, all the moms, all the
23 stay-home moms, and all their kids would be
24 down there lined up to buy that kind of
25 merchandise, but to sell beer and wine and
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1 whatever else little items they have in there
2 is not -- it's not going to enhance our
3 neighborhood.
4 So please do not pass this for the zoning
5 exemption. We want to enhance San Marco. We
6 want it to be a wonderful place to live, a safe
7 place, and a really safe place to be able to
8 walk the neighborhood.
9 And the other people that are in the
10 neighborhood are also the Ronald McDonald
11 House. These are people that are out of town.
12 A lot of them do not have vehicles and they do
13 walk the neighborhood. They -- you know, they
14 have a lot on their mind and they need to be
15 able to get out and be in a safe neighborhood.
16 And I'm sorry to say, we -- you know, it -- you
17 have to be careful. I don't walk late at night
18 down in that area. I walk during the day.
19 So thank you very much.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Maguire.
21 Any questions from the committee?
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
24 ma'am.
25 Jane Friedlin, followed by Doug Skiles.
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1 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Jane
3 Friedlin. I live at 2711 West Cove Lane,
4 32207.
5 We have lived in that house for 45 years
6 this September. Forty-two years ago, we bought
7 a seven-unit apartment building on Cedar
8 Street, a half a block from San Marco Food
9 Store. When we bought that apartment building,
10 there was not -- there was a nice, little
11 grocery store and meat market there. That has
12 changed to the San Marco Food Store, which not
13 too many of my friends feel safe enough to go
14 into. I have heard several people say recently
15 that they went in there and turned around and
16 said, "What in the world am I doing in here,"
17 and turned around and left because they did not
18 feel safe.
19 This area was not zoned for alcohol. This
20 is a residential neighborhood. The apartments
21 and homes in that area are redoing, they're
22 fixing up. These are not shoddy buildings.
23 The City is redoing that area. And this was
24 not intended for beer or wine and certainly not
25 for a package store.
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1 The abuse of alcohol can lead to the wrong
2 element, and that brings about the need for AA
3 chapters. And we have one, as they said, right
4 down the street. We have hired several people
5 from that AA chapter, and it is doing a
6 wonderful job of helping people get their lives
7 back together. With a package store right down
8 the street, that would be a great temptation.
9 And I know what temptation is; I'm a diabetic.
10 And sweets to me are like alcohol is for an
11 alcoholic. And, you know, to have a doughnut
12 shop right down the street from me would be a
13 bad thing.
14 There are schools that bring children to
15 Peterbrooke on field trips. And if you pass
16 this, that would be right across the street
17 from a liquor store, and that would not be a
18 good thing.
19 This area is not meant for this kind of
20 facility, and I would very much like it if you
21 did not pass it.
22 Thank you very much.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Friedlin.
24 Any questions from the committee?
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
2 Next speaker is Doug Skiles, followed by
3 Laurence Coles.
4 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Doug Skiles.
6 Address is 1212 Mapleton Road.
7 I'm also the president for the San Marco
8 Preservation Society, and we -- when this thing
9 was introduced to the Planning Commission, we
10 voted on it, our board did, and voted
11 unanimously to oppose the application for the
12 primary reason that we knew -- and some of our
13 members had been involved in 1995, and that --
14 if, you know -- certainly nothing has changed,
15 as Mr. Reingold explained. If anything has
16 changed, then that particular area has
17 improved, that there's even more of a reason
18 now to deny a liquor license in that location
19 than there was in '95. Many businesses are --
20 have and are investing, as we've heard,
21 millions of dollars. Now the City is investing
22 millions of dollars on the road.
23 To allow this use would really be going
24 backwards on that vision. As others have
25 explained tonight, Alcoholics Anonymous is
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1 across the street. The Ronald McDonald House
2 is down there. Swain Memorial Church is there.
3 There are two schools in the area, so we do ask
4 that you would uphold the Planning Commission's
5 decision and deny this application tonight.
6 Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
8 Mr. Skiles.
9 Any questions from the committee?
10 Mr. Brown.
11 MR. R. BROWN: Yes, Mr. Skiles, as to the
12 president -- how long have you been the
13 president?
14 MR. SKILES: I have been president since
15 June 1st.
16 MR. R. BROWN: Junes 1st?
17 MR. SKILES: Yeah.
18 MR. R. BROWN: Well, congratulations.
19 MR. SKILES: Thank you.
20 MR. R. BROWN: But you've been in the
21 community for --
22 MR. SKILES: I have. I have.
23 MR. R. BROWN: -- quite some time?
24 How long have you been in the community?
25 MR. SKILES: I'm sorry. I've been --
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1 actually had a business that was just down the
2 street at 1633 San Marco Boulevard for seven
3 years.
4 I have been in the store several times to
5 get snacks late in the day. It is somewhat --
6 the kinds of people that I would run into in
7 there maybe didn't fit with the rest of the
8 neighborhood to some degree, but that's not
9 saying anything against the store owners. I've
10 had an opportunity to talk to them about this.
11 They are nice people, and they -- I believe
12 they do want what's best for the neighborhood.
13 It would just be my encouragement to them that
14 they would upgrade the business and try to fit
15 in with the rest of what's happening there.
16 Our past president, John Singleton, also
17 met with the applicant and spoke to him about
18 it. He couldn't be here tonight, though.
19 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Although, there -- I
20 do understand clearly that there's an issue
21 with alcohol, liquor, because you are selling
22 alcohol, wine and beer there currently. And it
23 doesn't appear that they're going to close down
24 any time soon, so you are going to continue to
25 sell beer and wine. People will have access to
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1 it. Whether the folks passing by or living in
2 the community choose to shop there, that's
3 really their prerogative.
4 But what I'm hearing is that it's more of
5 an aesthetic concern, you know, where folks are
6 not pleased with the way that the business
7 owner is currently -- the upkeep of the
8 facility is just not fitting in right now, and
9 that -- we have programs to assist, you know,
10 business owners. And I think, you know, this
11 just -- in the future I think that -- for
12 businesses within the San Marco area that need
13 assistance or -- you know, we do have the JEDC
14 and some other places that we can tap into
15 because I think everyone wants to have a
16 beautiful community, but what's the closest
17 package store to this address?
18 MR. SKILES: I don't know where the
19 closest one is. I haven't done that research.
20 MR. R. BROWN: You don't. Okay.
21 Okay. Well, since you don't know, I'll
22 wait and -- then maybe someone coming behind
23 you. If not, I'll go back to the young lady
24 because -- where I'm going with this is here --
25 I'm sorry? Someone know the closest?
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Lakewood is your closest
2 one --
3 (Simultaneous speaking.)
4 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Further down, about
5 two miles down the road.
6 Okay. That answers my question, then.
7 Okay. Which is also --
8 (Simultaneous speaking.)
9 MR. R. BROWN: Go ahead.
10 Everyone needs to --
11 MR. REINGOLD: I just heard a bunch of
12 yelling from the audience and then a council
13 member saying, oh, that answered my question.
14 I wasn't sure if you might want to call one of
15 those representatives up and -- or ask them
16 when their turn comes.
17 MR. R. BROWN: I understand. Thank you,
18 Dylan.
19 My understanding is that the closest one,
20 for the record, is Lakewood that we can reach
21 out to right now in terms of our understanding.
22 And, again, Lakewood is a very nice community
23 as well, and I'm interested in knowing whether
24 or not selling package -- having a package
25 store in that Lakewood area -- because there's
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1 residents in that area as well. Have you heard
2 of any crime issues in the Lakewood area?
3 MR. SKILES: I haven't. I haven't really
4 investigated it.
5 One thing I would like to add, though.
6 Your point about improving the neighborhood --
7 improving the businesses, the Preservation
8 Society works very hard with the local
9 businesses and -- to assistant them, and we
10 want to see them succeed, particularly with the
11 San Marco Merchants Association. So we partner
12 with all of these businesses to -- to help --
13 because it benefits everybody for them to
14 succeed.
15 MR. R. BROWN: Absolutely, and I agree
16 with that. And I was going down that path.
17 No further questions for you. Thank you
18 for your time.
19 MR. SKILES: Thank you.
20 MR. R. BROWN: And continue to do a good
21 job in your community.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
23 Any other questions for Mr. Skiles?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Our next
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1 speaker is Laurence Coles, followed by Don
2 H-a-r- -- something -- -u-n-g.
3 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Coles.
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Your name and address,
7 please.
8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Dr. Laurence Coles,
9 pastor of the Swain United Methodist Church.
10 We're within four blocks of the area that we're
11 talking about.
12 The concern that -- this is a
13 neighborhood, a lot of children in it. We were
14 going through the demographics, and there are
15 over 6,000 children of elementary age and below
16 concerned about this influence.
17 You've already made the point, yes, beer
18 and wine is already sold. We're aware of that,
19 but now we're talking about a package store. I
20 hear the concern about the attorneys just
21 across the street. Thousands of dollars are
22 being spent on the upgrading of that particular
23 street, and hopefully that will continue.
24 I'm just going to concern [sic] about a
25 local -- I'm a local pastor. I do live
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1 considerably [sic] amount of time away. I'm on
2 500 Chaffee Road South. That's 12-and-a-half
3 miles out, but this is my neighborhood because
4 of the church that I serve, and we do house the
5 AA groups that have been referred to. We're
6 glad to have them in our church.
7 I don't know what else I can say that's
8 already really been said. I really think the
9 case has been made that this is not a place for
10 this particular neighborhood.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Coles.
12 Question from Reggie Brown, Councilman
13 Brown.
14 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair to
15 Pastor Coles, we're back to talking about
16 liquor and wine and beer, the impact that it's
17 having on the community. From your vantage
18 point, as a pastor in the community, I'm sure
19 you're aware of all the restaurants in the area
20 that serve --
21 MR. COLES: Yes, we are.
22 MR. R. BROWN: -- liquor, beer and wine?
23 MR. COLES: Aware of that.
24 MR. R. BROWN: Have there been any impact
25 in terms of the quality of life --
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1 MR. COLES: I would say about my
2 knowledge, no, but I would say that's a much
3 more controlled situation than we're talking
4 about here.
5 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. When you say
6 "controlled," you're talking about controlled
7 as to they're sitting inside of a facility or
8 you're talking about when they finish having
9 their drink of choice for the evening, they're
10 able to get in their cars and drive through the
11 neighborhood?
12 MR. COLES: Yes, but usually during the --
13 or in the consumption of that alcohol they are
14 having a meal, and I would say that would have
15 a considerable amount of difference with how
16 it's affecting their body.
17 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. I don't think we're
18 in that posture tonight to -- any of us are, in
19 that posture in terms of our discipline, to
20 determine whether or not one is impaired based
21 on the amount of food consumption, but I will
22 tell you this, is that I do understand the
23 community concerns about package stores. I see
24 far too many of them in my district, so I do
25 understand that.
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1 Again, I like for us to really -- I guess
2 I'm not really understanding the real issue
3 tonight, Pastor. If it's liquor, beer or wine
4 impacting the quality of life in our community,
5 then maybe we need to move in another direction
6 because if it's wrong on one front, it's wrong
7 on every front. Would you not agree with that,
8 Pastor?
9 MR. COLES: You're absolutely right. And
10 who's to say we're not going in that direction.
11 MR. R. BROWN: Thank you, sir.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
13 Any other questions?
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
16 Mr. Coles.
17 Next speaker is Don --
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Harjung.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: -- Harjung?
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir.
21 H-a-r-j-u-n-g.
22 It's not H-a-r-something-u-n-g, as you
23 stated.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, it looked like a
25 "something" to me.
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1 MR. HARJUNG: I know. I understand. No
2 problem.
3 I'm Don Harjung. I live at 11006 Citron
4 Court in Jacksonville, Florida 32223.
5 I'm a member of Swain Memorial United
6 Methodist Church. I am not a part of the
7 community in San Marco; however, I do support
8 the happenings and the goings on in that
9 community.
10 As a former radio announcer here in
11 Jacksonville, Florida, I've been here 66 years.
12 I have watched changes made. Some of them have
13 been for the good, some of them have been for
14 the worse.
15 Gentlemen of the council, ladies, I urge
16 you to reconsider this bill and look at it from
17 a different point of view. Change is good only
18 if it benefits all concerned.
19 We as a community, as San Marco community,
20 as a member of Swain United Methodist Church, I
21 oppose -- definitely oppose reinstituting this
22 bill and allowing this to happen.
23 I did a little demographic, along with
24 Dr. Laurence Coles, the pastor of our church.
25 I looked at the amount of police calls that
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1 were made in a 30-day period in a half-mile
2 radius from this point of which this new
3 package store is to be possibly put into
4 effect. Seventy-seven calls were made in a
5 30-hour period, police calls, 77. Of those, 20
6 were alcohol or drug related. Whether or not
7 that consumption or those packages or that beer
8 or wine was bought from that store or any other
9 store, I don't know that, but I can tell you
10 this: One lady has already made a very adamant
11 statement about temptation. Remove the
12 temptation before it's there. Get rid of it
13 before it happens. Don't allow something to
14 come about that doesn't need to be there.
15 Mr. Brown, you're absolutely right. There
16 are other beer and wine establishments.
17 There's one across the street. I'd like to see
18 it go, I really would.
19 As a former pastor myself, I abhor
20 alcohol. I'm a teetotaler. I took an oath,
21 same as you gentlemen did to uphold the law. I
22 uphold law the God, and that law says I am not
23 to consume much alcohol. I took it a step
24 further. I don't consume any.
25 I ask you, I implore you, don't let this
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1 happen, for the sake of the community, for the
2 sake of those in the community, and for the
3 sake of the Lord.
4 Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Harjung.
6 Any questions from the committee?
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
9 I'm probably going to pronounce this name
10 wrong too. It's Anderson -- is it Geddes?
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir, Geddes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I got the Anderson
13 right.
14 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir.
16 My name is Geddes Anderson. I reside at
17 1112 River Oaks Road.
18 You heard earlier from my law partner,
19 Neils Murphy. I would echo his points about
20 the business perspective, but it would also
21 point to some of the things that -- when we
22 were looking at the property, we did actually
23 physically see beer cans and bottles around the
24 property. Now, again, we don't know where it
25 came from, but I will say that that convenience
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1 store is directly across the street. And I
2 would imagine that if -- if the appeal and the
3 longstanding tradition of the planning
4 committee [sic] is overturned, that those beer
5 bottles that I saw would probably -- and I
6 guess that would be an assumption, but it might
7 turn into a -- a liquor bottle or something
8 else. I would imagine that we also would see
9 more police calls to that unit, echoing or
10 following up on the piece about the alcohol
11 calls towards the -- the area.
12 I think that the -- the permission to
13 allow a package store at that location would be
14 entirely inconsistent with the character of
15 San Marco and what the -- what the community is
16 trying to portray there. I recall going to the
17 last planning committee meeting and there was
18 a -- I think there was a $7 million road
19 project that's currently being done there,
20 which is one of the main reasons that we're
21 moving -- wanting to move to that area, and I
22 think that having a package store would
23 definitely be contrary to what the character
24 of -- what San Marco is trying to portray. It
25 is a jewel of Jacksonville, the Duval County,
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1 Jacksonville.
2 I want to speak just briefly about the
3 other businesses that are there that would also
4 be contrary to having a liquor store there.
5 Aside from the AA unit, we also have the Ronald
6 McDonald House, where -- which is within a
7 stone's throw of this location. That's where
8 folks come from all over the country to stay
9 and where their children fight cancer and
10 things of that nature. We have Baptist, which
11 is a hospital there. I think, you know, when
12 they're walking and they're in from out of
13 town -- you've got children and parents walking
14 in the area. They are going to be exposed, we
15 believe, to a worse element than what we
16 already have, so --
17 I see that my time is getting short. The
18 Peterbrooke -- I think to explain a little bit
19 more about what happens at Peterbrooke, they
20 have children that come in -- which is right
21 next door to the location. They have field
22 trips to the location to see where they make
23 the chocolate. That's the manufacturing plant
24 for Peterbrooke. I think that would be a
25 deterrence and contrary to what we're trying to
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1 achieve for San Marco.
2 So we would ask you, implore you to uphold
3 the prior decision back in 1995, the most
4 recent decision back in 1995, and to deny the
5 appeal that is being offered before you.
6 Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Anderson.
8 Any questions from the committee?
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
11 Ms. Tropia, how are you on time? Do you
12 need a break?
13 (Discussion held off the record.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Our court reporter, we try
15 not to push her past two hours without taking a
16 little break so that she will have some use of
17 her fingertips after the meeting, so we will
18 take a five-minute recess and reconvene
19 shortly.
20 (Brief recess.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. If everyone would
22 return to your seats, we'll reconvene.
23 We still are in the public hearing, and I
24 have a couple more late speakers' cards that
25 have come in. I have one that's in support,
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1 Frederick Dorsey.
2 Mr. Dorsey, would you like to address the
3 committee?
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Come on down,
6 sir, and just give your name and address for
7 the record, and then you have three minutes.
8 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: How you all doing today?
10 I stay at 1050 West 6th, Street. And, no,
11 that's not in San Marco's area, but --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Your name, sir.
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Frederick Dorsey --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- 32209, Jacksonville,
16 Florida.
17 I don't stay over in their neighborhood,
18 but I do travel over there every now and then.
19 And the reason why I support this bill is
20 because -- from what I'm hearing right now,
21 it's a lot of discrimination towards this bill.
22 A lot of people don't -- don't want the liquor
23 store there because they got kids walking the
24 neighborhood. They got, you know, schools in
25 the area. If that's the case, then they need
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1 to go ahead and shut down Publix. They need to
2 go ahead and fight towards Publix and all the
3 rest of the places, the restaurants that sell
4 alcohol, but mainly what -- what I'm hearing a
5 lot of people saying is about the trash that's
6 going to be in the neighborhood. That can be
7 cleaned up. They keep the area very nice, from
8 what I -- from what I see.
9 I support the bill, and I don't see no
10 harm in putting a liquor store in the San Marco
11 neighborhood, just for the simple fact --
12 because, I mean, why take the enjoyment out of
13 people lives, the ones that do drink. That's
14 not right. And I support everything that you
15 said.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dorsey.
17 Any questions from the committee?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. And the final
20 speaker card is in opposition. It's Michael
21 Maguire.
22 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Michael Maguire, 1039
24 River Oaks Road, Jacksonville, 32207.
25 I just wanted to kind of cover what I've
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1 heard and how long this process has been going
2 on for several months is -- is -- you've got a
3 request for an exception to the standard zoning
4 code, which is outside the parameters of what
5 is normally permitted. The Planning Department
6 is saying it should not be permitted. The
7 gentleman sells beer and wine already.
8 You know, I'm not a teetotaler. I like a
9 drink as much as anybody else, but a package
10 store is a different animal. A package store
11 is different than a restaurant. Serving wine,
12 beer or a hard drink with a meal, it's a
13 different situation.
14 You know, we don't need to go into
15 statistics and we don't need to go into a lot
16 of detail about who said, what said, how many
17 accident reports, how many crime scenes we're
18 going to have. It's going to be a significant
19 change. And all of the people here have taken
20 time out of their busy schedules to be here
21 this evening to support it, and it's
22 additionally challenging every time this drags
23 out for us to go through the same process again
24 and again.
25 Is it unfair that he can't do everything
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1 he wants to do with his property or his
2 leasehold or whatever component it might be?
3 Perhaps. But my parents taught me a long time
4 ago, life isn't fair. But it's about what's
5 permitted.
6 That's all I wanted to share with you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
8 Any questions from the committee for
9 Mr. Maguire?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
12 MR. MAGUIRE: Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. That takes us
14 back to -- Mr. Khazal, you have an opportunity
15 to close here. Is five minutes sufficient?
16 Sorry. Mr. Reingold.
17 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, I believe
18 before the applicant proceeds with his
19 rebuttal, I just want to make sure --
20 Councilmember Brown, I believe, had an issue he
21 wanted to clarify.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
23 Mr. Dick Brown.
24 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 I did want to clarify my comments of a few
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1 minutes ago. I didn't see -- I didn't favor a
2 deferral, but at the time I was, of course,
3 recognizing the Planning Department's denial of
4 this proposal as well as significant
5 neighborhood opposition, but I wanted to say
6 that I certainly support the process of hearing
7 both sides and I certainly have no idea how the
8 committee votes. I misspoke when I was
9 suggesting that it had a lot of opposition, but
10 certainly the process is important and the vote
11 is an individual matter for each council
12 member, so I wanted to clear that up.
13 I appreciate the time.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
15 And thank you for keeping an open mind
16 through the process. And I think most of my
17 committee members do likewise until we hear all
18 the facts in evidence that are provided to us
19 in the process.
20 So, with that said, Mr. Khazal, will five
21 minutes be adequate for you to close?
22 MR. KHAZAL: Okay. The main issue for the
23 denial of the staff report was the traffic
24 issue and the parking issue. This issue
25 already exists and they will not be increased
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1 by adding liquor license to the exiting
2 business, which is convenience store. In fact,
3 according to the zoning statistic by industry,
4 convenience store has four time the amount of
5 trip or visit during the peak hour. This --
6 that liquor license will decrease the
7 (inaudible) of -- that is used and decrease
8 parking and traffic.
9 Also, what's my comment is about San Marco
10 Preservation, they care about San Marco area.
11 Why they allowed to have full liquor license
12 issue for the area? They have Bistro Aix
13 recently, they have Hurricane recently, they
14 have Wings recently. They have Mediterranean
15 that's recently. And also the issue -- the
16 permit for a convenience store, 2004. The
17 address was 1570 San Marco Boulevard, but the
18 gentleman, he never use it.
19 I'm not here to fight San Marco
20 Preservation. Like I said, I've been in that
21 neighborhood for 19 years. It's part of me.
22 That's what all my business start. And I have
23 15 business, convenience store and liquor
24 store, so I'm not here to fight with them or
25 damage my reputation with them.
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1 I hope so, you grant that bill for me.
2 Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
4 Does that conclude your remarks?
5 MR. KHAZAL: Yes.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions from the
7 committee?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Anyone else
10 care to address the committee?
11 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
13 the public hearing is closed and we're back in
14 committee.
15 Mr. Holt.
16 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
17 Mr. Crofts or Mr. Kelly, the last speaker
18 just mentioned issues of parking. Could you
19 explain to me what your opposition to this was
20 in relation to parking?
21 MR. KELLY: The site plan, as you know,
22 it's -- it's an older property. The structure
23 was probably built back in the '40s, so it's
24 currently nonconforming as it relates to
25 appropriate landscaping and the parking lot
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1 and -- and the required number of parking
2 spaces.
3 Additionally, the access, the driveways,
4 there's really no controlled access to the
5 site. It's pretty much wide-open pavement.
6 And Cedar Street is a local residential street
7 along this section, and their primary access
8 would be from Cedar. Most of that is just a
9 paved driveway connection to Cedar Street, in
10 addition to the driveway connection from
11 San Marco Boulevard.
12 So the -- encouraging that traffic to come
13 into that neighborhood, we feel, is going to be
14 disruptive to the character and quality of life
15 for those residential neighbors.
16 MR. HOLT: So, to summarize, there's no
17 clear entry and exit point and you've got a
18 neighborhood street there, so there's a safety
19 risk there with the parking lot and also
20 it's -- it doesn't have sufficient landscaping
21 in the area?
22 MR. KELLY: Yes.
23 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you very much.
24 With that, I would move the amendment to
25 deny the appeal.
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1 MR. REDMAN: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the amendment to
3 deny the appeal by Mr. Holt, second by
4 Mr. Redman.
5 Discussion on the amendment?
6 MR. R. BROWN: Yes.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Councilman Reggie Brown.
8 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. I definitely would
9 like to just share with all of us tonight, you
10 know, my struggle. It wasn't necessarily the
11 issue itself. It was with whether or not the
12 applicant was comfortable, slash, competent
13 versus delay tactics. That's something that I
14 had to deal with within myself.
15 But I do support the process. And I know
16 that it took a little more time than we
17 probably would have anticipated tonight, but
18 this is why we're here, you know, to vet the
19 process, and I support it.
20 We are here tonight to talk about the
21 exception, and I did truly understand that.
22 That's -- basically moved in the direction to
23 do -- offer an additional service.
24 What I struggle with was the timing,
25 whether or not the applicant -- moving from
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1 Mr. Mann to an attorney. You know, I know
2 we've been dealing with this a long time, but
3 would two weeks -- or, you know, two weeks or a
4 month would have made the difference? I'm not
5 really sure whether or not it would have. I'm
6 sure the testimony from the ones that oppose
7 this position would have been the same, it
8 would be the same whether it was today or, you
9 know, two or four weeks from now.
10 But just as a committee member with LUZ, I
11 want you all to know I believe it's our duty to
12 make sure that every applicant, whether they're
13 in support of Planning -- and they do a
14 wonderful job -- or not support Planning and
15 their recommendations, we want to make sure
16 that every taxpayer, every applicant in this
17 city feel that the process was fair. Whether
18 the outcome is not favorable, that's not what
19 we're talking about tonight. We want to make
20 sure that the outcome is fair.
21 I am prepared to move on with the vote
22 tonight. I would abstain only because we did
23 not -- I'm not comfortable whether or not we
24 reached the fairness in terms of -- it's not
25 the issue. It's whether the applicant had the
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1 time required to satisfy the entire process.
2 The outcome may have been the same. That's not
3 what we're discussing. It's just, you know,
4 would it -- what would it have harmed in terms
5 of progress, moving forward two weeks? And
6 that's -- that's what I struggle with tonight.
7 It's nothing else.
8 I said earlier and I'll continue to say
9 that we do like to see our constituents when
10 they come down. We like to support our
11 constituents. It's not always that way, but we
12 have to hear and vet the entire process.
13 So if I can -- I don't know whether that's
14 something I can do, abstain or not, as we vote,
15 but that -- that would be my position.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
17 I don't think an abstention is
18 appropriate, but I'll defer to legal counsel.
19 I think you would have to have a pecuniary gain
20 to qualify for a justified conflict.
21 Mr. Reingold.
22 MR. REINGOLD: Yeah. To the Chair,
23 specifically on the abstention issue, through
24 the Chair to Councilmember Brown, I guess there
25 are two issues that the Office of General
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1 Counsel always makes recommendations to.
2 One, absolutely under the law, if you've
3 got a pecuniary gain or loss that would enure
4 to you or your family, company you work for or
5 the like, then we would ask that you abstain
6 because of a voting conflict.
7 The second one that we always recommend to
8 our council members is that -- and to Planning
9 Commission members or any other voting member
10 on a quasi-judicial item is that you do not
11 vote on an item if you have taken a position on
12 it prior to the vote.
13 So those would be the two examples of
14 times where -- if you have taken a position on
15 an item before all the evidence was in, we
16 recommend you do not vote, or if you have a
17 personal interest or gain, that you do not
18 vote. Otherwise, you should vote on the item.
19 And if your conscience tells you you should
20 vote a certain way because of what's turned
21 out, then that's the best way to handle it.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
23 We have a motion and a second to deny.
24 Any further discussion on the motion?
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor, say
2 yes.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed, say no.
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you have
7 adopted the amendment.
8 MR. BISHOP: Move the bill as amended.
9 MR. REDMAN: Second.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the bill as
11 amended by Mr. Bishop, second by Mr. Redman.
12 Discussion on the bill as amended?
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no discussion --
15 Mr. Reingold, did you have a question?
16 MR. REINGOLD: I was having a
17 conversation, I'm sorry, on the side with
18 Councilmember Brown.
19 Although I don't believe his comments at
20 the beginning were intended to hint that he had
21 taken a position, I think -- he was kind of
22 asking, since it sounded like he had taken a
23 position, whether it would be good for him to
24 abstain, and I -- I just cautioned that it
25 might be a good idea to abstain based upon the
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1 fact that it may have been a perception that he
2 had taken a position on a quasi-judicial item
3 before all the evidence was made.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
5 Any further discussion on the --
6 MR. REDMAN: (Inaudible.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: If you support the amended
8 version of the bill, which would deny the
9 appeal, you'd vote the green button. If you
10 object to the amended version of the bill,
11 which would deny the appeal, you'll vote the
12 red button. And if you abstain, you'll vote
13 the yellow button. Anybody that pushes the
14 blue button is in big trouble.
15 All right? I don't want this to be like a
16 one to one to one to one vote.
17 All right. Any further discussion?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot,
20 please, and vote.
21 (Committee ballot opened.)
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. D. BROWN: (Abstains.)
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1 MR. R. BROWN (Votes nay.)
2 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
3 (Committee ballot closed.)
4 MS. LAHMEUR: Four yea, one nay, one
5 abstention.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
7 approved 2011-253 as amended, which -- the
8 appeal is denied. This matter will be taken up
9 by the full City Council on Tuesday evening,
10 the 14th of June.
11 All right. Mr. Skiles, as president of
12 San Marco, would you mind just hanging around
13 for a couple of minutes? I need to ask you a
14 quick question about another matter. We're
15 almost finished here.
16 Item 9, 2011-254, we deferred earlier in
17 the evening.
18 Item 10, 2011-316, is deferred, as is
19 item 11, 2011-317.
20 Turning over to page 5, beginning with
21 item 12, all those items on that page -- items
22 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16 -- are all read second
23 and rerefer.
24 Turning over to page 6, all the items on
25 that page -- items 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21 -- are
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1 all read second and refer.
2 And then, finally, on page 7, the last two
3 items, items 22 and 23, are both read second
4 and rerefer.
5 I believe that concludes our agenda.
6 Is there anyone else that would care to
7 address the committee or any business to come
8 before the committee?
9 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, I thank
12 everybody for their patience this evening.
13 Ms. Tropia, appreciate you being here,
14 staff.
15 We have -- our next meeting will be in two
16 weeks and we'll see everybody here at that
17 time.
18 This meeting is adjourned.
19 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
20 7:35 p.m.)
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1 CERTIFICATE
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3 STATE OF FLORIDA)
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4 COUNTY OF DUVAL )
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I, Diane M. Tropia, Court Reporter,
6 certify that I was authorized to and did
stenographically report the foregoing proceedings
7 and that the transcript is a true and complete
record of my stenographic notes.
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DATED this 12th day of June, 2011.
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11 Diane M. Tropia
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