CITY OF JACKSONVILLE
LAND USE AND ZONING
COMMITTEE
Proceedings held on Tuesday, March 15,
2011, commencing at 5:00 p.m., City Hall, Council
Chambers, 1st Floor, Jacksonville, Florida, before
Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the
State of Florida at Large.
PRESENT:
JOHN CRESCIMBENI, Chair.
RAY HOLT, Vice Chair.
WILLIAM BISHOP, Committee Member.
REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
DICK BROWN, Committee Member.
DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
ALSO PRESENT:
BILL KILLINGSWORTH, Director, Planning Dept.
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
SHARONDA DAVIS, Legislative Assistant.
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 March 15, 2011 5:00 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Good evening,
5 everyone.
6 We're going to call the Tuesday,
7 March 15th meeting of the Land Use and Zoning
8 Committee to order.
9 With the exception of one item on our
10 agenda tonight, we should have a pretty short
11 meeting, but just to announce to everyone,
12 the -- item 4, on page 3, 2010-900, we're going
13 to take that up as the last item, but we don't
14 have too many items, really, to take up, so it
15 shouldn't be too long before we get to that.
16 All right. With that, we'll have
17 everybody introduce themselves for the record,
18 starting with Mr. Crofts.
19 MR. CROFTS: Good evening.
20 My name is John Crofts, representing the
21 Planning Department.
22 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
23 Development.
24 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
25 Development.
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1 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford, Planning and
2 Development.
3 MR. REINGOLD: Dylan Reingold, Office of
4 General Counsel.
5 MR. D. BROWN: Dick Brown, City Council,
6 representing District 13.
7 MR. R. BROWN: Reginald Brown, City
8 Council, District 10.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: And I'm John Crescimbeni,
10 the chairman, at-large, Group 2.
11 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt. I'm representing
12 Ken Avery.
13 MR. BISHOP: Bill Bishop, District 2.
14 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4.
15 MR. YARBOROUGH: Clay Yarborough,
16 District 1.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you all for
18 being here.
19 Mr. Reingold, will you please read the LUZ
20 rules and regulations into the record, please.
21 MR. REINGOLD: I would be delighted, sir.
22 Anyone who would like to address the
23 committee tonight must fill out a yellow
24 speaker's card in its entirety. The yellow
25 speakers' cards are located on the desk up
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1 front, near the podium. Once completed, please
2 return the speaker's card to the basket up
3 front.
4 Because a verbatim transcript of this
5 meeting will be prepared by a court reporter,
6 it is important that you speak clearly into the
7 microphone when you address the committee.
8 It's also important that only one speaker speak
9 at a time.
10 Any tangible materials submitted with a
11 speaker's presentation, such as documents,
12 photographs or plans, shall become a permanent
13 part of the public record and will be retained
14 by the committee.
15 As a courtesy, please switch any cell
16 phones, pagers, or audible devices to a silent
17 mode at this time.
18 Any person who lobbies the City for
19 compensation is considered a lobbyist and is
20 therefore required to register their lobbying
21 activity with the City Council secretary. If
22 you are a lobbyist and have not registered with
23 the City Council secretary, you will not be
24 permitted to address the committee tonight.
25 Items are generally addressed in the order
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1 in which they are listed on the agenda. Copies
2 of the agenda are located on the desk up front,
3 near the podium.
4 On occasion, items may be heard out of
5 order for the sake of efficiency or to
6 accommodate scheduling conflicts.
7 Unless there is a formal hearing on any
8 particular item, each member of the public is
9 limited to a three-minute presentation.
10 Presentations should be focused, concise, and
11 address only the item pending before the
12 committee.
13 Prior to addressing the committee, please
14 state your name and your address for the court
15 reporter.
16 Decisions on rezonings, waivers of road
17 frontage and sign waivers are all considered
18 quasi-judicial in nature and certain protocols
19 will be followed for these proceedings.
20 First, each council member must disclose
21 on the record any ex-parte communications they
22 have had with members of the public, and that
23 is to occur prior to the public hearing on the
24 applicable item. This includes a brief
25 statement of when the conversation occurred,
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1 who the communication was with, and what the
2 subject matter of the communication was.
3 Second, the normal format is to allow the
4 applicant or the agent thereof to make their
5 presentation first, followed by members of the
6 public who wish to speak in support of the
7 item, then members of the public who are in
8 opposition will be allowed to speak.
9 After all the public comments have been
10 received, the applicant will have a brief
11 opportunity to wrap up or present a brief
12 rebuttal. The wrap-up or rebuttal shall be
13 limited to the issues brought up by the
14 speakers.
15 In some instances, the Chair may permit a
16 concise surrebuttal or response to the
17 applicant's rebuttal, which will be followed by
18 a brief final response by the applicant.
19 Finally, all quasi-judicial decisions must
20 be based on substantial competent evidence,
21 which means that the committee's decision must
22 be supported by fact-based testimony or expert
23 testimony and not generalized concerns or
24 opinions.
25 Thank you very much.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
2 The yellow cards, as Mr. Reingold said,
3 are up here on the front desk, so make sure you
4 fill those out, drop them in the basket, be
5 sure to sign them, and there's copies of the
6 agenda up there as well if you want to follow
7 along where we are in the meeting.
8 All right. Committee members, if you'll
9 turn to page 2 of the agenda, starting with
10 item 1, 2010-585. That will be deferred this
11 evening. Item 2, 2010-670, is deferred as
12 well, as is item 3, 2010-856.
13 Turning to page 3, as I said earlier,
14 we'll come back and take up item 4, 2010-900,
15 as our last item since that's going to be
16 probably the most controversial item on the
17 agenda this evening.
18 That brings us to item 5, 2011-38. We
19 have a public hearing scheduled on this bill
20 tonight. We're not going to take action on it.
21 We're going to continue the public hearing
22 until April 19th; however, we do have a public
23 hearing. The public hearing is open. I have
24 one speaker's card, Sharon White.
25 Ms. White, are you here?
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you care to address the
3 committee?
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Come forward.
6 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: As Mr. Reingold stated,
8 just begin by stating your name and address for
9 the record and then we'll start your time for
10 three minutes.
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Sharon White, 4311
12 Fern Creek Drive, and that adjoins the affected
13 parcel, so --
14 I'd like to begin by pointing out that the
15 applicant did not provide the proper public
16 notice sign on the closest road within five
17 days of his application with direction and
18 distance to the affected property. As a
19 result, members of the public who live nearby
20 were not provided with early notice, which
21 hindered their ability to perform research
22 necessary to protect their interests and
23 property values. The sign still has not been
24 posted.
25 This half-acre parcel was originally part
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1 of a two-acre lot of record which has now been
2 subdivided into three parcels. Mr. George
3 Crane (phonetic) sold this parcel to Bottom
4 Line Ventures in late 2010 and still owns the
5 other two lots. His ownership of the three
6 subdivided lots should have triggered the
7 three-parcel subdivision rule and its required
8 property road utilities, drainage and waste
9 management.
10 The private easement and driveway was
11 designed for just a handful of mostly
12 undeveloped properties. Allowing this waiver
13 of road frontage will set a precedent for the
14 remaining undeveloped lots and will likely
15 encourage further subdivision. This will
16 ultimately create a runoff and nutrient issues
17 for the river, safety hazards for fire and
18 rescue to deal with, and also waste issues.
19 Currently, homeowners haul trash cans up
20 to Edenfield Road late Monday for Tuesday's
21 garbage pickup, creating an eyesore which often
22 remains for days.
23 Mr. Yarborough scheduled a meeting with
24 us, the applicant and others from the City on
25 March 8th to discuss the matter, which I
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1 appreciated. The applicants asserted their
2 project would not negatively impact property
3 values. Research shows a similar project
4 allowed to use septic instead of connecting to
5 the sewer line contradicts that assertion. The
6 property at 4298 North University Boulevard
7 originally sold for $200,000 in January of 2007
8 and recently sold for $76,500, less than half
9 its original price.
10 This sharp drop in property value most
11 certainly impacts the value of all homes
12 nearby. In contrast, the two most recent
13 structures built on the private drive closely
14 reflect the value of the homes they back up to
15 in Charter Point. Their smaller drop in
16 property value is very close to what is typical
17 in Charter Point.
18 A report I requested indicates during the
19 period of 2006 through 2010 a total of 78
20 waiver applications were submitted. While 30
21 of those were recommended for denial, only four
22 were denied in 2006 and not one since then.
23 Prior to 2006, waivers were regularly
24 denied. As such, it appears the
25 recommendations of the Planning Department
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1 regarding waivers have largely been ignored
2 since 2006.
3 I hope, in consideration of the concerns
4 outlined by neighboring property owners, that
5 you will deny this waiver request and begin to
6 more seriously consider the recommendations put
7 forth by the Planning Department when
8 determining the outcome of future waivers, and
9 Arlington can't afford more of this hodgepodge
10 development.
11 And if that's my time, thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: That is your time.
13 Thank you very much.
14 Any questions from the committee?
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Ms. White, you
17 understand we are not taking action on this
18 tonight?
19 MS. WHITE: Yes, sir.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: This is going to be
21 deferred for two cycles, I believe, at the
22 request of the district councilmember.
23 MS. WHITE: Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you.
25 Anyone else care to address the committee?
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
3 then, the public hearing is continued until
4 March -- I mean, April 8th -- 19th, and we will
5 take it up then.
6 Mr. Yarborough, did you want to offer
7 anything?
8 MR. YARBOROUGH: If I could,
9 Mr. Chairman.
10 One of the -- and I appreciate the time on
11 this.
12 My office sent an e-mail to our Planning
13 Department today to make reference to the
14 correct statement Ms. White made about the sign
15 not being properly posted along Edenfield, and
16 I just want to see if we could get a commitment
17 as to when we would expect that to be properly
18 placed.
19 Mr. Kelly.
20 MR. KELLY: To the Chair, as indicated in
21 the staff report, the sign was posted on the
22 easement in front of the house mistakenly;
23 however, it's my understanding that it has
24 since been relocated to the Edenfield frontage.
25 MR. YARBOROUGH: Okay. When did you --
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1 Mr. Kelly, if you could, just -- when did you
2 receive that confirmation?
3 MR. KELLY: Okay. I apologize. I read it
4 as being reposted. It -- however, it was not
5 reposted. It is still -- my understanding,
6 it's in the easement, but -- that was the
7 discrepancy between the posting of the sign,
8 was that they posted it in front of the house,
9 along the easement, instead of the road
10 frontage.
11 MR. YARBOROUGH: Right. So if the -- can
12 we contact the applicant and make sure they
13 post it in the appropriate location?
14 MR. KELLY: Yes, sir. We'll do that.
15 MR. YARBOROUGH: Okay. Please let me
16 know. I appreciate it.
17 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Yarborough.
19 Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
20 Let the record reflect I have a note here
21 from Councilman Joost, who has -- will not be
22 joining us tonight, so he is excused from
23 tonight's LUZ meeting.
24 All right. Any other questions from the
25 committee?
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. That item we'll
3 take up on April 19th.
4 MR. YARBOROUGH: Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Yarborough,
6 for being here. You're welcome to stay. Have
7 some fun, come on.
8 Item 6, 2011-40. Mr. Huxford, do you have
9 a report?
10 MR. HUXFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11 I'll give you a briefer version than I did
12 previously, but -- application for waiver of
13 road frontage, WRF-10-16, also known as
14 ordinance 2011-40, is a request to reduce the
15 required road frontage from eighty feet to
16 zero feet for a residentially-zoned property
17 located north of 103rd Street on the Westside.
18 Staff reviewed the application. We did
19 have some concerns primarily regarding access
20 and the continued development of land using an
21 accessway that's not improved, and so we have
22 recommended denial.
23 Based on the comments the applicant gave
24 at LUZ last time around, the committee asked
25 that we consider some conditions that they
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1 might want to take into consideration should
2 they decide to approve this, and we have come
3 up with four conditions, and I will read those
4 into the record. We have shared these with the
5 applicant. Those conditions would be:
6 The accessway to the subject property
7 shall be 25 feet wide and maintained as a
8 stabilized travel surface that does not alter
9 the existing drainage patterns, subject to the
10 review and approval of the Planning Department.
11 The accessway shall be improved to meet this
12 requirement within 12 months of the granting of
13 a permit for the residence.
14 Second, the accessway to the subject
15 property shall be named and a street sign
16 placed at the intersection with 103rd Street,
17 subject to the review and approval of the
18 Planning Department.
19 Third, the address for the subject
20 property shall be clearly identified on
21 103rd Street, subject to the Planning
22 Department review and approval.
23 Fourth, the subject property shall not be
24 further subdivided.
25 Thank you.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Huxford.
2 Does that have any impact on the Planning
3 Department's recommendation with the inclusion
4 of those four conditions?
5 MR. HUXFORD: We would -- we still have
6 some concerns from a planning principle given
7 that the accessway would not be developed to
8 have to meet City standards, yet it does serve
9 numerous residences. We just -- from a
10 planning principle, we just don't -- don't tend
11 to support those.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: So it doesn't change your
13 recommendation?
14 MR. HUXFORD: No, sir.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And the 25-foot-wide
16 stabilized accessway, that's within 12 months
17 of what, the issuance of the permit?
18 MR. HUXFORD: The issuance of a permit.
19 I don't know if he's going to place a
20 mobile home on the property, which would be a
21 move-on permit, or if he's going to do
22 site-built construction, which would be a
23 building permit, so --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: That would allow the mobile
25 home to be on the property for 12 months prior
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1 to the stabilization of the accessway?
2 MR. HUXFORD: Yes, sir.
3 We discussed it as a department, and it is
4 a considerable distance and it may take him
5 some time to get that stabilized, and we
6 don't -- if the committee does grant the
7 waiver, we don't want to prohibit him from
8 going ahead and setting up residence. I
9 believe he's from out of town.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: And the other conditions,
11 the naming, the identification up on the main
12 road, is that -- is that also subject to the
13 12 months or is that immediate?
14 MR. HUXFORD: Actually, he's already been
15 engaged with the addressing section to proceed
16 with that, so we didn't see the need to go
17 ahead and put a time limit on it. I'm pretty
18 comfortable that he's going to go ahead and do
19 that.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
21 Any questions from the committee for
22 Mr. Huxford?
23 MR. HOLT: Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
25 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
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1 Through the Chair to Mr. Huxford, was one
2 of the issues staging of garbage at the road?
3 How many homes are down there? Because
4 that's -- on these kinds of things, sometimes
5 that's an issue. I have an area in my district
6 that has that problem.
7 MR. HUXFORD: It can be.
8 I don't know how garbage collection is
9 handled. The applicant might know that. I can
10 say that we are aware that the mailboxes are
11 placed in front of a convenience store located
12 along 103rd Street. I don't know if they have
13 to haul the garbage all the way out there or if
14 a truck goes up in there.
15 MR. HOLT: How many homes --
16 MR. HUXFORD: The number of residences was
17 probably slightly less than a dozen, I would
18 say.
19 MR. HOLT: So about eight to ten.
20 Is the -- sir, is that -- isn't this --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt, we're going to
22 hear -- we have a speaker's card, it's the
23 applicant's --
24 MR. HOLT: Okay.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: -- so if you'll hold that
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1 question --
2 MR. HOLT: If he can answer that when he
3 comes up, that would be wonderful.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: It might not be part of his
5 three minutes, so I'll let him answer
6 afterwards.
7 All right. Any other questions for
8 Mr. Huxford?
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. This is a
11 quasi-judicial matter. Does anyone have any
12 ex-parte communication to disclose?
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
15 then, we have a public hearing scheduled this
16 evening. The public hearing is open. I have
17 one speaker's card, Bryan Cribbs.
18 Mr. Cribbs.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Bryan Cribbs, 179
21 Tiffany Circle, Spring Lake, North Carolina
22 28390.
23 I'm excited about those conditions as
24 maybe meaning we may be leaning towards my
25 direction, but I didn't get a chance to include
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1 one other thing that is positive for allowing
2 me to move here, and that is the fact that --
3 instead of a lot that's in a residential area
4 being vacant, abandoned, overgrown, and
5 littered, it will be occupied and clean and
6 well-kept.
7 Just yesterday, the -- and the creek
8 itself brings in new debris. I got a 5-gallon
9 gas can out of the creek yesterday, so -- not
10 even the -- just the things you can see, but
11 the things you can't see. My being there will
12 be beneficial to the neighborhood, and I'm sure
13 they would rather have the -- someone occupying
14 that lot than it to be inviting to some folks
15 to maybe discard their debris there.
16 I'm available for any questions.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Cribbs, the --
18 you heard the four conditions that were read
19 into the record?
20 MR. CRIBBS: Yes, sir.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you accept those four
22 conditions?
23 MR. CRIBBS: Yes, sir.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you for that.
25 Any questions from the committee?
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1 MR. HOLT: (Indicating.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt, you had a
3 question?
4 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
5 Through the Chair, sir, do you know how
6 the garbage typically is staged out there?
7 MR. CRIBBS: Yes, sir.
8 MR. HOLT: Because that's sometimes a
9 problem with these things, as well as the
10 mailboxes that Mr. Huxford mentioned, but is
11 there an area that all these homes stage their
12 garbage or do -- does the provider come down
13 the road?
14 MR. CRIBBS: From what I've seen, the
15 occupants or residents take their garbage down
16 to 103rd. It's very near where the mailboxes
17 are. It's also where the trash is placed.
18 MR. HOLT: And there seems to be room
19 there?
20 MR. CRIBBS: Yes, sir.
21 MR. HOLT: Okay. That's my only concern.
22 Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Is the garbage
24 containerized at 103rd?
25 MR. CRIBBS: Well, I guess I've probably
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1 seen some in trash cans and -- I'm really not
2 sure. Maybe it was large items that I saw. It
3 didn't look like it was in a container, but --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you see any trash cans
5 up there, like, throughout the week that just
6 aren't collected and brought back to the
7 property?
8 MR. CRIBBS: No. No, sir. I don't think
9 so.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any other
11 questions for Mr. Cribbs?
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: No one? All right.
14 Thank you, Mr. Cribbs. Don't go far.
15 Anyone else care to address the committee?
16 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
18 then, the public hearing is closed.
19 The committee would need to make an
20 amendment to grant or deny the waiver if
21 interested.
22 MR. HOLT: I make an amendment to grant
23 the waiver.
24 MR. R. BROWN: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the amendment to
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1 grant the waiver by Mr. Holt, second by
2 Councilman Reggie Brown.
3 Any discussion?
4 MR. REINGOLD: (Indicating.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
6 MR. REINGOLD: I'm going to make an
7 assumption here that that was an amendment to
8 grant the waiver subject to the conditions?
9 MR. HOLT: Yes, with the -- with the
10 conditions as read by Mr. Huxford.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: The --
12 MR. REINGOLD: All right. That was a
13 motion to amend the bill, with --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: To grant the waiver --
15 MR. REINGOLD: -- to grant the waiver with
16 the conditions as read into the record by
17 Mr. Huxford.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: That is correct.
19 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any discussion on the
21 motion with the conditions?
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot.
24 I'm sorry, on the amendment. All those in
25 favor, say yes.
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed, say no.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
5 adopted the amendment.
6 MR. HOLT: Move the bill by amended.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the bill as
8 amended by Mr. Holt.
9 Is there a second?
10 MR. D. BROWN: Second.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Second by Councilman
12 Dick Brown.
13 Discussion?
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: If no, open the ballot,
16 vote.
17 (Committee ballot opened.)
18 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. R. BROWN (Votes yea.)
23 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
24 (Committee ballot closed.)
25 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you have
2 approved item 6, 2011-40, as amended.
3 Turning to page 4, item 7, 2011-74.
4 Mr. Shelton, are the folks from the sod
5 industry here tonight that --
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: They're here? Okay. Good.
8 (Mr. Shelton approaches the podium.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Shelton, do
10 you want to do your presentation?
11 MR. SHELTON: Yes, sir.
12 Good evening. My name is Mark Shelton
13 with the Planning and Development Department.
14 I'm here today with Lisa Rinaman with the
15 mayor's office and Dylan Reingold with the
16 Office of General Counsel and Paul Davis, also
17 with the Planning and Development Department.
18 I'd like to take a few minutes and
19 introduce you to this -- to our
20 Florida-friendly residential ordinance. If
21 today's presentation seems familiar, it's
22 because we've been here before, last July,
23 introducing the commercial portion of this
24 effort. It dealt with commercial, industrial,
25 multifamily, and public projects, and some of
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1 you are hearing this presentation for a fourth
2 time.
3 This ordinance, once again, establishes
4 new landscape and irrigation design techniques
5 and methods to encourage water conservation,
6 only this time around it focuses on
7 residential.
8 As you can see by the above references,
9 the State of Florida requires the addition of
10 Florida-friendly language in our municipal
11 code. Our own comprehensive plan requires the
12 inclusion of Florida-friendly language as well
13 in policy 2.3.7 and objective 3.3 of the
14 Conservation Coastal Management Element.
15 So what is Florida-friendly landscaping
16 and why should we revise our code to include
17 it? Florida-friendly landscaping achieves
18 three main goals. It conserves water, it
19 improves the aesthetics of yards, and it
20 encourages a diversity of plants.
21 As mentioned, last year's Florida-friendly
22 ordinance provided the framework and basis for
23 this year's residential component. The
24 ordinance before you today only impacts new
25 single-family developments. As you can see in
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1 2009, it affected commercial, industrial,
2 multifamily and public projects.
3 Once again, to stay consistent with other
4 municipalities, we use FDEP's model ordinance
5 as a template, taking (inaudible) of our new
6 language straight from this guideline.
7 Throughout the process we have worked with
8 numerous individuals, organizations and
9 departments. As you can see by this list, we
10 have worked with the Water Management District,
11 JEA, Northeast Florida Builders Association,
12 and the riverkeeper, among many others. The
13 result of this outreach effort was beneficial
14 as it provided us with different perspectives
15 and easier-to-understand language.
16 To conclude, there are just a few points
17 of interest we'd like to point out:
18 Irrigation plans must now consider soil,
19 slope, and other site characteristics in order
20 to minimize waste water, including overspray.
21 We now require more specific input on what
22 type of irrigation head is where and why to
23 help prevent water waste.
24 The use of micro-irrigation is now an
25 option for landscapes. Irrigation systems
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1 could now comprise of an automatic underground
2 system, micro-irrigation, quick coupling
3 valves, or hose bids, where micro-irrigation
4 was not previously an option.
5 Applicants may now choose from three types
6 of sensory devices. New technology allows more
7 precise detection in application of the need
8 for irrigation water; therefore, we're able to
9 update our code through this effort and include
10 new devices, such as a weather sensor and
11 moisture sensor.
12 Finally, in an effort to simplify the
13 permitting process, we've included a provision
14 to allow a palate of landscape plans to be
15 approved for each new subdivision during the
16 ten-set review stage.
17 We appreciate your time to make this short
18 presentation and we'll be happy to answer any
19 questions as we stand by for them.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you,
21 Mr. Shelton.
22 Any questions from the committee?
23 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Reingold,
25 did you have something you wanted to put on the
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1 record?
2 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, I'm just here
3 for additional questions.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you.
5 We have a public hearing scheduled this
6 evening. The public hearing is open. I have
7 one speaker's card, and that's Betsy McGill,
8 from the Florida Sod Growers Co-op.
9 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Betsy McGill.
11 I'm with the Florida Sod Growers Cooperative.
12 We're headquartered in LaBelle, Florida, just
13 east of Fort Myers, but we have 54 member
14 companies throughout the state producing sod of
15 every variety for roadsides to sports turf and
16 home lawn uses.
17 I'd like to, first of all, thank you,
18 Chairman Crescimbeni, for the opportunity to be
19 here and to offer some comments and also say
20 how much we have appreciated the opportunity to
21 work with the staff on both the commercial
22 ordinance and this residential ordinance,
23 particularly Mr. Shelton, Mr. Reingold,
24 Ms. Stewart have been exceptional in reaching
25 out to us and hearing our comments.
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1 We are actually only here tonight to talk
2 about a couple of terms. In the design
3 standards, Section 656.1211, in the definitions
4 of "high water use zone" and "moderate water
5 use zone" and what materials are allowed there,
6 it says in the high water use zone, it says,
7 this shall include non-drought-tolerant turf
8 grass varieties. And in the moderate water use
9 zone, it refers to drought-tolerant turf grass
10 varieties. This is of some concern to us
11 because the use of the terms almost beg for a
12 definition of which is what, and that is one of
13 the very things that University of Florida
14 researchers, researchers at Texas A&M and
15 across the country are looking at right now.
16 What does the turf actually need in terms of
17 minimum water to stay healthy and to do its
18 job? Because we know that one of the bigger
19 problems we have is simply watering too much
20 when the turf doesn't need that.
21 What we would suggest and what we sent in
22 our letter to the council dated February 22nd
23 is just removing those terms -- and the
24 language is almost identical to say -- for
25 example, in the high water use zone, areas of
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1 the site limited to a maximum of 30 percent of
2 the total landscaped area with plants and turf
3 types that require supplemental water
4 year-round in additional [sic] to natural
5 rainfall to survive and are generally
6 considered -- not considered drought tolerant,
7 and also in moderate water use zones -- again,
8 including turf grass varieties generally
9 considered drought tolerant.
10 It simply moves us away from that
11 expectation that there is one or the other and
12 you must choose one or the other in order to be
13 able to meet the standards in this. It's a
14 very small delineation, but we have found in
15 calls from professionals, from homeowners and
16 in working with other cities and counties that
17 they go, "Where's the list? What can I put on
18 here to approve it?"
19 And how would that impact our growers?
20 Well, we are concerned that -- since
21 Florida-friendly landscaping is a -- is a
22 wholistic approach looking at soil, site,
23 growing conditions, sunlight, everything that
24 goes into that, that there could be a turf
25 grass that might fit into a landscape, but
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1 someone would be reluctant to use or may not
2 use because of the perception that it doesn't
3 fit into this category or that category. And
4 we're looking at a group of farmers that in the
5 past three years are looking at a 60 to
6 70 percent hit to their businesses. We are
7 losing bright young people, great minds that
8 will be the future of our industry because of
9 economics, and we don't want regulation to
10 continue with that, so --
11 I know my time is up. We'd just like to
12 offer to continue to work with education and
13 outreach in any way we can and especially
14 through our (inaudible) world greener program
15 where we encourage less watering and
16 responsible --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. McGill.
18 A couple of questions.
19 MS. McGILL: Yes, sir.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Apparently you're following
21 this with other counties in Florida, correct --
22 MS. McGILL: Correct.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: -- your association is?
24 What -- the language that you're
25 suggesting, has that been adopted by any other
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1 county?
2 MS. McGILL: It is very similar to what's
3 been adopted, and many have not even referenced
4 specifically "drought tolerant" or "non-drought
5 tolerant." They've steered away from that.
6 And they've certainly steered away from any
7 list, which is a smart thing that -- that you
8 guys have done as well.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And what about --
10 when we took up the residential component of
11 this same approach, wasn't this -- this was a
12 consistent argument that you had with the
13 residential side, wasn't it?
14 MS. McGILL: In the commercial side, they
15 referenced the Green Industry Best Management
16 Practices Handbook, which kind of gave an
17 idea -- a list for these folks to go from.
18 There was not a reference here. And to be
19 frank, you can find several lists that give you
20 different drought tolerances that just reflects
21 the fact that the -- the information is ongoing
22 an being updated consistently.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you aware of any other
24 jurisdictions that use the terms "drought
25 tolerant" or "non-drought tolerant" in what
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1 they've adopted?
2 MS. McGILL: We know that several have
3 tried. And I cannot honestly tell you which
4 ones may have adopted that language, but I
5 don't know of any that have specified in the
6 other, but that's not to say that there, in the
7 67 counties, might not be one.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
9 Councilman Bishop for questions.
10 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11 Thank you for your comments. I do have a
12 question. How does one know -- or how can one
13 tell what sort of turf grass is drought
14 tolerant and -- generally tend to be drought
15 tolerant and which ones generally tend not to?
16 MS. McGILL: Exactly.
17 Well, what we're talking about with this
18 ordinance and what we talked about with
19 Ms. Stewart is, since this is coming from
20 professionals, they're going to be relying on
21 the people creating these plans to specify what
22 they believe would fit into these categories.
23 And, there again, if they're doing their job,
24 they're looking at what is your soil type like,
25 what are your growing conditions like, how are
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1 you going to care for that, and you are not
2 going to put a grass that tends to, for
3 example, die after 30 days with no water in an
4 area where it's not going to thrive.
5 MR. BISHOP: How is John Q. Public
6 supposed to know that?
7 MS. McGILL: Precisely. That -- that's
8 our concern, and that's another reason why the
9 University of Florida and extension service are
10 working hard to be able to give some guidelines
11 that tell not just is it this or is it that,
12 but what happens.
13 Homeowner expectation is a big deal.
14 Zoysia grass is touted as being very drought
15 tolerant and it can survive a long time with no
16 water. However, if a homeowner is not told
17 that the way it's drought tolerant is by going
18 brown and turning off color, then when they
19 come out and their lawn is brown, they start
20 calling us and saying, "Is it dead? Do I put
21 more water on this or more fertilizer?" And
22 they need to know, no, you absolutely don't.
23 So it's to get that educational ball
24 rolling because the -- the component is going
25 to be what happens when it's sitting in that
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1 yard. That is really critical, the care and
2 maintenance.
3 MR. BISHOP: Well, I guess what I'm
4 hearing is there really isn't an answer to the
5 question, and I'm -- and I'm kind of having a
6 little trouble understanding the fine nuance
7 difference between the way it's worded and the
8 way you're suggesting it's worded, other than
9 that the way it's worded here uses fewer words
10 than you do, but I don't hear a substantive
11 difference, so I guess, what's the point?
12 MS. McGILL: Right.
13 It's the idea of generally associated with
14 drought tolerance versus saying it is drought
15 tolerant, because if you put the same plant in
16 a different setting, you may find that it's not
17 going to respond the same way.
18 I've taken home plenty of things from the
19 nursery that were supposed to be drought
20 tolerant or bulletproof, but, you know, I can
21 kill them all. It's -- it's pretty bad.
22 MR. BISHOP: So I guess what I'm hearing
23 is we can change the wording around to what
24 everybody is comfortable with, but there really
25 is no way to tell whether anything is drought
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1 tolerant or not?
2 MS. McGILL: It's a living plant, and I
3 can't guarantee that it's going to survive any
4 specified amount of time, but I can tell you
5 what happens at 30 days, 60 days, how it
6 responds to drought, and if that magic -- we
7 have people with St. Augustine lawns, no
8 irrigation system, no problem. So that -- that
9 has us all looking and going, "There's more
10 going on here than -- than is black and white."
11 MR. BISHOP: Okay. Well --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that clear, Mr. Bishop?
13 MR. BISHOP: It's clear as mud.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
15 Any other questions from the committee?
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. McGill, and tell me
18 again, now, your industry has a concern
19 because --
20 MS. McGILL: We --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: You fear that -- what,
22 we're going to be --
23 MS. McGILL: Right. We're concerned that
24 there's going to be a perception that one is --
25 oh, this is not drought tolerant and therefore
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1 it's not going to pass through the planning --
2 so I'm just going to use this one because I
3 know it's going to get through. When, in
4 reality, it may indeed be high on the drought
5 tolerant scale, this one factor, but there may
6 be a lot of other factors that go into that
7 landscape mix that makes another choice just as
8 good. And our growers have a 12- to 18-month
9 turnaround on a crop.
10 We are happy to meet market conditions, we
11 are always looking for new varieties, we're
12 supporting research, and we never come to you
13 and say put turf where it doesn't belong or put
14 in more turf than -- than what that landscape
15 needs, but we do ask for that -- that fair
16 opportunity not to contribute to more confusion
17 and to give us the opportunity also to -- to
18 educate.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: And you referenced earlier
20 the development of some standards by -- you
21 said by the Department of Agriculture? Who
22 would do that? Who were you talking about?
23 MS. McGILL: You mean as far as drought
24 tolerant studies?
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
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1 MS. McGILL: The University of Florida is
2 working on that. The West Florida Research and
3 Education Center at Milton has a -- what they
4 call a linear gradient irrigation system, huge
5 system looking at how much water will this turf
6 survive on, small, medium lots; what happens to
7 it, to give us an idea of what really happens
8 when this goes out on your lawn and how little
9 water can we put on that for it to survive and
10 to be healthy.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: And they're conducting that
12 study at whose request? Is that something that
13 your industry is --
14 MS. McGILL: That's -- the university is
15 doing it, that's right. And Texas A&M did a
16 drought study. That's linked on their website
17 for their agriculture department, and there are
18 other areas. The University of Florida is
19 feverishly working on answering a lot of those
20 questions that Mr. Bishop had as well.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you for your
22 input.
23 Anyone else have any questions for
24 Ms. McGill?
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
2 Ms. McGill.
3 MS. McGILL: Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: You may want to sit on the
5 front row in case anything crops up.
6 MS. McGILL: Yes, sir.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone else care to address
8 the committee on this bill?
9 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
11 then, the public hearing is closed. We're back
12 in committee.
13 Mr. Shelton, can you respond to
14 Ms. McGill's suggestion --
15 MR. SHELTON: Yes, sir.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: -- or concern about the
17 tolerant and nontolerant?
18 MR. SHELTON: Yes, sir.
19 And I also ask for a little bit of default
20 to Dylan Reingold, who was instrumental in this
21 as well, but --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: He already said he didn't
23 want to -- he didn't have anything to say,
24 so --
25 MR. SHELTON: There's a few points.
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1 The first point is that the -- our
2 landscape reviewers don't actually regulate
3 turf grass. We ask for an indication of where
4 your high water use zone, moderate water use
5 zone, low water use zone is located. What
6 grass goes where is up to the landscape
7 designer, and they're kind of responsible that
8 they're going to submit plans that -- they're
9 responsible if these plants are going to die
10 within the first year or not. So the burden is
11 on the plan designer, not the plan reviewer for
12 the City of Jacksonville.
13 Also, the developer is the one who is
14 responsible for this because he submits it
15 during your subdivision plan submittal. The
16 individual homeowner never has to worry about a
17 plan. It's only the developer.
18 And, yes, after the developer develops the
19 subdivision, and the homeowner, a couple of
20 years later, wants to switch things around,
21 that would be up to him. We only regulate
22 during the plan review ten-set as a good-faith
23 gesture to try to control a little bit of this
24 irrigation use.
25 There's also a couple of points -- and I
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1 do apologize if I've made this point before,
2 but this is language that is unchanged. It's
3 been there since 1991, and we're not really
4 tinkering with that language and we really
5 haven't had an issue with it. We talked to
6 Kim Stewart, our landscape architect, and she
7 said it really hasn't been too -- too
8 contentious in the past on this.
9 Also, I did want to kind of default this
10 to Dylan to explain the -- the tradeoff between
11 high water use zone and low water use zone and
12 how one can achieve 100 percent
13 St. Augustine turf or any other kind of turf as
14 long as you're not having a high water use zone
15 that is greater than the low water use zone,
16 and that's something that Dylan put in.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And so are you
18 saying when the plans come in for review, if
19 they're using -- if you're looking at the
20 high -- I'm sorry, the low water use zone on
21 the plans, you're not looking at the turf grass
22 specifically to determine whether it's high use
23 or low use? You're just -- you're not even
24 focusing on that, so -- is that what you're
25 saying?
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1 MR. SHELTON: Correct.
2 The landscape architect says she's never
3 really stopped anyone from -- saying you can't
4 put that grass there --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: If they specifically list a
6 high-use turf grass, but they're putting it on
7 the ten-set review in a low-use irrigation
8 area, you're just going to let it ride through?
9 MR. SHELTON: The landscape reviewer told
10 me that that's never happened before and that
11 she really hasn't had -- and that kind of
12 issue, I guess it would ride through.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, aren't we
14 trying to accomplish something with this
15 legislation?
16 MR. SHELTON: We are. I think Dylan can
17 clarify that.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
19 MR. REINGOLD: Absolutely.
20 To the Chair, first off, Mark Shelton is
21 absolutely right on this issue, is -- it's
22 interesting that the sod growers came to us and
23 said, we're really uncomfortable with the high
24 water use zone definition and the moderate
25 water use zone definitions, when those are two
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1 definitions that are not being proposed to be
2 changed in this legislation and, in fact,
3 haven't been changed for over 18 years. Those
4 are definitions that our City staff has been
5 using for a long time and pretty comfortable
6 with.
7 To follow-up on that and have some
8 agreement with the sod growers is the important
9 aspect under this ordinance is that the best
10 management practices, essentially studies out
11 in the field, are what's critical to
12 determining what's a high-water-use plant or
13 what's a low-water-use or what's a
14 moderate-use, and the studies that we've -- and
15 we've talked to the sod growers about this.
16 We have several studies out there, the
17 University of Florida has put out, Texas A&M
18 has put out, and they talk about, well, these
19 plants are -- you know, these types of turf
20 grass are low -- you know, have -- are drought
21 tolerant, these are fairly drought tolerant,
22 these aren't drought tolerant at all, and we've
23 actually provided that information to the sod
24 growers and have that available to anybody.
25 And so I think in terms of, you know, the
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1 years of working with these definitions with
2 our landscape architects at the City and the
3 studies that rely on -- we just didn't feel
4 there was a need to make any changes, but
5 certainly that's up to the committee.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
7 Mr. Shelton, when you review the plans
8 with regard to other plants that are being used
9 in the particular zones, are you going to pay
10 closer attention -- I mean, if there's -- if
11 there's an inconsistency -- if you view a high
12 use -- a high-irrigation use plant being used
13 in what they're claiming to be a low irrigation
14 zone, is that going to fly? Is that going to
15 go through without being questioned?
16 MR. SHELTON: Yes, sir.
17 If the plans reviewer sees a high water
18 use area, that's --
19 THE CHAIRMAN: A high use -- high-water
20 use plant listed in a low-use irrigation area
21 on the plan, is that going to -- I mean, when
22 do you start asking questions or saying, "Hey,
23 that's not going to work"?
24 MR. SHELTON: I will default to our
25 registered landscape architect because he's
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1 been reviewing some of these plans.
2 (Mr. Davis approaches the podium.)
3 MR. DAVIS: To the commission [sic], Paul
4 Davis, Planning Department.
5 We generally rely upon the private sector
6 professional who's preparing the documents to
7 select the appropriate plant material. In
8 terms of regulating water use, we're looking at
9 the irrigation system and whether the system is
10 delivering a high capacity water use, low
11 capacity water. We rely upon the private
12 sector licensed professional who's making
13 judgment on the basis of best scientific data
14 available, usually from the University of
15 Florida or other research.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: So as long as it's got a
17 seal on there, it's going to go through; is
18 that what you're telling me?
19 MR. DAVIS: Not necessarily.
20 There would probably be a conversation if
21 there's something that's really egregiously
22 deficient. There could be a review comment.
23 And there's an internal review process and
24 appeal process internally that could be where
25 the applicant could appeal a decision that --
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1 that would be -- most of the information is
2 readily available to everybody and an informed
3 applicant and an informed reviewer is going to
4 come to a very similar judgment.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I've been
6 supportive -- I was supportive of the
7 residential, I've been supportive of this, but
8 I want it to be more than just window dressing.
9 I want us to accomplish what we're being tasked
10 to accomplish.
11 Mr. Bishop, do you have a question?
12 MR. BISHOP: I thought I did, but I kind
13 of do in a sense that -- I'm just --
14 Mr. Crescimbeni made some good points, that --
15 I mean, for the most part responsible
16 professionals understand this stuff and they
17 know what they're doing. You don't have
18 problems with those, but without some sort of
19 standards as to what is -- or in this
20 particular case, what is or is not drought
21 tolerant, what do you use as a review or a
22 basis to review things by? In the sense -- if
23 you say, well, what's -- somebody is going to
24 be responsible for it, so they can basically do
25 what they want and we're not going to reject
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1 anything, then it gets to be what's the point
2 of the ordinance if there's -- if there's no --
3 nothing in which to base a decision on?
4 MR. DAVIS: Again, we're relying upon
5 published information. The most authoritative
6 source for this region is going to be the
7 Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences out
8 of Gainesville. They have published lists.
9 Water Management District also publishes a list
10 that's similar but may have some discrepancy.
11 MR. BISHOP: Okay. Would it not, then,
12 make sense to reference that material in here
13 as a starting point, as a guide -- Mr. Dylan --
14 Mr. Reingold is waving his hand over there,
15 but -- at least as a guide, as some sort of
16 objective measure, if you will, that if there
17 is a dispute over whether something is or it
18 isn't, you can go to some -- I mean, you don't
19 have -- necessarily have to have a list in the
20 ordinance, but wouldn't it make sense to have
21 some sort of -- have this guideline material
22 here to use as a -- as a reference point as
23 opposed to nothing?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Davis, do you want to
25 yield to Mr. Reingold?
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1 MR. DAVIS: I'll yield to Mr. Reingold.
2 He has a comment -- he has the draft of the
3 ordinance.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
5 MR. REINGOLD: To the committee, I think
6 there have been some really good points,
7 obviously, that have been brought up and
8 hopefully I can address those issues.
9 First off, with respect to the zones and
10 the plants, under the ordinance you're now
11 going to establish minimums and maximums for
12 all type of areas of planting and not just of
13 the water use zones, so now you're going to
14 have a certain minimum of low-water use zones,
15 maximum of high-water use zones, and everything
16 else being moderate. There will now be allowed
17 for a tradeoff between -- if you decrease the
18 amount of high water, you can now decrease the
19 amount of low water.
20 And certainly our reviewers are going to
21 look at that and go, "Well, where are your
22 low-water use zones? Wow, it looks like you've
23 got -- a hundred percent of your site is high
24 water. That doesn't work. That's not even
25 going to pass muster under our ordinance code."
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1 What it's telling the landscape architect
2 is you're going to have to now set aside
3 30 percent of your land for this, 40 percent
4 for this, 30 for this.
5 Additionally, to go to the idea of, you
6 know, why don't we a have list somewhere -- in
7 fact, one -- first off -- the first policy
8 reason behind that is that we didn't want to
9 have a definitive list of plants or studies
10 that said these are the ones you use because
11 the plants are always going to change and the
12 studies are always going to change. And, in
13 fact, the ones that we've been directing people
14 to so far are some, I believe, that are even on
15 our website that we forward to people and
16 include a University of Florida study, and one
17 I've got sitting right in front of me talks
18 about how bahia grass is excellent for drought
19 tolerance, Bermuda grass is excellent. It says
20 carpet grass is very poor and centipede grass
21 is fair and zoysia grass is excellent.
22 So we've got several varieties out there
23 and studies that we already use within the City
24 that tell people these are the plants that are
25 acceptable for these areas and these are the
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1 ones that are not.
2 MR. BISHOP: Not to belabor it or to cut
3 you off necessarily, I understand what you're
4 saying. I guess my point here is, I agree, we
5 don't want to have a comprehensive plant list
6 in here and then every time something new
7 happens we've got to change it by legislation.
8 Could we not incorporate something by
9 reference, like -- this happens in building
10 codes all the time. We -- you incorporate ANSI
11 standards or ASTM standards by reference
12 because there are organizations that do that on
13 a daily basis for -- they live and breathe this
14 stuff. And when new science comes out, those
15 change, the code is immediately updated for the
16 new technological information. Could we not do
17 something like that here that would then take
18 some of that guesswork out of it without us
19 being responsible for developing an entire list
20 of plants?
21 MR. REINGOLD: Actually, this issue was
22 already addressed in 2009-864 specifically
23 within the appropriate plant selection portion
24 of that ordinance. It says, "Information
25 regarding plants classified as prohibited,
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1 invasive, exotic, controlled, or
2 Florida-friendly can be obtained from the
3 Florida Department of Environmental Protection,
4 the University of Florida, IFAS, Duval County
5 Extension Office, and the City of Jacksonville
6 Building Inspection Division landscape
7 section," so we already reference a number of
8 sources already in our code. And we'd be happy
9 to add sone more if that's what the committee
10 wanted to do, but we've got -- we've already
11 got a list that we already send people to, hey,
12 come to Building Inspection, go to DEP, go to
13 IFAS, Duval County Extension, go to the
14 University of Florida. So we're already kind
15 of pointing out some places already in our
16 ordinance code where we can have people look
17 for those types of lists.
18 MR. BISHOP: Okay. Well, I guess it would
19 strike me as -- that would be the material that
20 the reviewers would go to when they review a
21 plant selection as to whether it does or it
22 doesn't comply with drought tolerant standards,
23 but -- and I guess that's an administrative
24 issue, not necessarily an ordinance issue.
25 (Mr. Killingsworth approaches the podium.)
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1 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: Mr. Chairman, if I
2 may?
3 Bill Killingsworth, director of Planning
4 and Development.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Pull that mic up a little
6 bit, sir.
7 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: In terms of the review
8 process, we wanted to provide flexibility;
9 however, if a reviewer noticed that there was a
10 plant material that they felt was inappropriate
11 for the zone that it was in, then it would be
12 the reviewer's responsibility to challenge the
13 designer or the landscape architect to
14 demonstrate why it is in that micro-climate
15 that plant material is appropriate where
16 generally it is not.
17 So I don't know if that answers your
18 question in terms of the review process or not
19 because I think one of the things you heard
20 from the sod growers is sometimes
21 St. Augustine, depending upon the climate and
22 the soil conditions and everything else, may
23 very well be drought tolerant in that
24 particular instance. In general, it may not
25 be. So a reviewer may see St. Augustine in a
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1 drought -- low-water use zone, and we should
2 challenge that. And if they can provide
3 documentation as to why in that specific site
4 it's okay, then it should be okay.
5 MR. BISHOP: Okay. I guess that makes
6 sense.
7 Thanks.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: So, Mr. Killingsworth,
9 you're saying, then -- to use my example,
10 you're saying -- because I had a different
11 answer before, but you're saying if a ten-set
12 plan comes in for review and it shows high --
13 it shows, like, low-tolerant plants depicted in
14 a -- yeah, low-tolerant plants depicted in a --
15 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: Yes, I believe --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: -- in an area that's going
17 to be low irrigation, I heard that they were
18 just going to rely on the designers, the
19 architect or whoever, on their -- on their
20 expertise, but you're saying they're going to
21 challenge that, so --
22 MR. KILLINGSWORTH: Yeah, I believe
23 that -- Mark misspoke there.
24 It would be my expectation that if plant
25 material that is widely believed to be a high
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1 water use material ended up in a low water use
2 zone, that we would challenge the designer or
3 the architect to demonstrate why in this site
4 that is the appropriate material. And if they
5 can, then fine. If they can't, then it's
6 inappropriate.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. That's what I wanted
8 to hear.
9 All right. Anything else?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. No one else
12 cares to address the committee.
13 I can't remember if we closed the public
14 hearing, but -- if not, the public hearing is
15 closed and we're back in committee.
16 MR. HOLT: Move the bill.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: There's a motion by
18 Mr. Holt on the bill --
19 MR. REDMAN: Second.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: -- second by Mr. Redman.
21 Any discussion?
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot,
24 vote.
25 (Committee ballot opened.)
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1 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. R. BROWN (Votes yea.)
6 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
7 (Committee ballot closed.)
8 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you have
10 approved item 7, 2011-74.
11 Item 8, 2011-78.
12 Mr. Huxford, your report, please.
13 MR. HUXFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 Ordinance 2011-78 is an application for a
15 sign waiver for property located at 657
16 Wonderwood Drive, just east of Mayport Road,
17 multiple requests. One is to have a second
18 primary sign on the property; second, to allow
19 for a reduction of the distance between the new
20 sign and an existing pylon sign from 200 feet
21 to 100 feet; and, lastly, to allow for the
22 continued placement of the existing pylon sign,
23 which has been there since the '70s, from
24 10 feet to 4 feet along the road frontage.
25 Staff reviewed the application. We are
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1 recommending approval. We feel that the roof
2 sign, given the size of it and the location on
3 the property, is not obtrusive or incompatible
4 with the area. I believe it's going to be a
5 43-square-foot roof sign. And if this sign was
6 actually located underneath the roof as opposed
7 to being above it, it would simply be a wall
8 sign that would be allowed by right and the
9 applicant wouldn't even be here.
10 As I said, we feel that it would be
11 consistent with the character of the area.
12 It's not practical to ask them to be 200 feet
13 apart. The property simply isn't large enough
14 to accommodate that. Also, the existing pylon
15 sign, as I said, it's been there since the
16 '70s, if it were located 10 feet back from the
17 right-of-way, it would, in fact, be in the
18 vehicular use area and could become a traffic
19 hazard.
20 So subject to those considerations, we are
21 recommending approval subject to one condition,
22 that condition being that the roof sign shall
23 be substantially consistent with the sign
24 exhibits dated October 2010 provided in the
25 application. And a copy of that is located in
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1 the report.
2 Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Huxford.
4 Any questions from the committee?
5 MR. HOLT: Yes.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: You have a question for
7 Mr. Huxford?
8 MR. HOLT: Yes.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
10 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
11 Through the Chair to Mr. Huxford, has the
12 Greater Arlington/Beaches CPAC reviewed this?
13 Did y'all get a -- any kind of indication from
14 the CPAC?
15 MR. HUXFORD: I'm not aware of that and I
16 did not hear from the CPAC planner.
17 MR. HOLT: Okay. Mr. Chairman, would you
18 mind if we deferred this item so I could get
19 a -- when do they meet normally? Would one
20 cycle do it? And we could get them to review
21 it.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I think they just met last
23 night, didn't they?
24 MR. HOLT: Probably.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hawkins --
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1 MR. HUXFORD: Our CPAC planner may be
2 here.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hawkins, aren't you on
4 the Arlington/Beaches --
5 MR. HAWKINS: Yes. It was not discussed
6 at the CPAC last night.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
8 Did you catch that, Diane?
9 THE REPORTER: Yes.
10 MR. HOLT: Well, I'd like an opportunity
11 for the CPAC to review it. If -- if we could
12 defer this item, I'd appreciate it.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
14 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't have a problem
16 deferring that. I do have a public hearing
17 scheduled this evening that will have to be
18 opened.
19 This is a -- I guess we don't have to
20 declare ex-parte, then, since we're going to
21 defer it?
22 MR. REINGOLD: (Nods head.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We do have a public
24 hearing scheduled on this item tonight. We are
25 going to defer this for two cycles, but we
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1 do -- and continue the public hearing until --
2 that will be April 19th, but I do have one
3 speaker's card.
4 And, Brad, I cannot read your last name.
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Sure.
7 I'm Brad Ginzig. I represent General Sign
8 as an agent to the owner.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. If you'll give your
10 address too, please, and then we'll start your
11 time.
12 MR. GINZIG: 1940 Spearing Street.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
14 MR. GINZIG: I know you guys want to defer
15 this, but, quite frankly, this wouldn't be an
16 issue if the inspector didn't come out after
17 the Planning Department signed off on this as a
18 wall sign. So we built this sign. We received
19 a permit. We installed the sign, and now we
20 get an inspector out there that says this is
21 different than what your Building Department
22 approved of.
23 So, I mean, I don't see how you can
24 approve something in the plan review process,
25 make us pay the permit, build the sign, put it
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1 up, and then tell us that we can't do it.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, that is a good
3 question. Let's see if we can get an answer
4 for you on that one. I'm curious as well.
5 And what was your last name, Gin- --
6 MR. GINZIG: Ginzig.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ginzig?
8 MR. GINZIG: I mean, we worked out
9 everything, but now that it's keeping to move
10 on -- moving on and on and on -- you know, we
11 have a customer and they have a sign that they
12 want to have up and it's just getting pushed
13 back further and further throughout these
14 meetings, and they're really -- if this was a
15 wall sign, all this would be approved.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's see if we can
17 get an answer to that question.
18 Anybody like to address that from the
19 Department? Feel free to raise your hand.
20 MR. KELLY: I'll try my best.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, you're very
22 brave, sir.
23 MR. KELLY: The application did come in.
24 One of the planners reviewed that request.
25 Because of the actual -- kind of architecture,
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1 the building, the sign is above the roof line
2 but it's actually on a wall or an end wall of
3 the building, so they had some confusion when
4 they were doing their review.
5 They inadvertently approved it as being a
6 wall sign. The permit was issued. The
7 inspector came out and said this is not a wall
8 sign; this is essentially a roof sign, and it
9 met the definition of a roof sign.
10 At that point in time, we recognized the
11 deficiency between the separation of signs
12 because a roof sign is considered a street
13 frontage sign which has to be separated from
14 any other street frontage sign by 200 feet;
15 hence, the need for the waiver, but it was, I
16 guess, a combination of errors or -- arguably,
17 it just -- you know, it is on a wall, but it is
18 above the roof -- the level of the roof, so it
19 would constitute a roof sign, in our view, but
20 I can understand the planner's position at the
21 time thinking it was a wall because it was the
22 end wall of the building. It's a certain kind
23 of architectural style.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, is the roof sign
25 or the wall or whatever that structure is
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1 that's above the roof, is that perpendicular to
2 or parallel with the front of the building?
3 MR. KELLY: It is perpendicular to the
4 front. It is an end wall along the back of
5 the -- the side of the building.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Kind of like the
7 old-fashioned 7-Elevens. You're probably too
8 young to remember those, but they used to have
9 those end walls with their sign on them, so --
10 Okay. Mr. Holt, do you have any -- you
11 still want to defer?
12 MR. HOLT: I would like to (inaudible).
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
14 All right. Mr. Ginzig, is it?
15 We're going to defer this item. We're
16 going to continue the public hearing until
17 April 19th. I regret that you came down
18 tonight, but these things happen.
19 MR. GINZIG: I understand.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: So come back and visit us
21 on April 19th and hopefully we'll have a little
22 bit better luck.
23 We have two council members -- two
24 committee members on the queue. Questions for
25 the speaker or internal?
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1 Mr. Redman first, followed by Mr. Bishop,
2 and then Councilman Richard -- Dick -- Reggie
3 Brown, I'm sorry.
4 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair to the sign
5 man --
6 MR. GINZIG: Yes, sir.
7 MR. REDMAN: -- Ginsing [sic]?
8 In my business, I ran into this same
9 problem where you cannot have the sign above
10 the top of the roof.
11 MR. GINZIG: Right.
12 MR. REDMAN: Could you not put the sign to
13 where it would not be extending above the
14 roof -- roof line?
15 MR. GINZIG: It would not -- it would not
16 fit. I mean, the sign band area is not large
17 enough for the sign to go on it. You know,
18 that's why when we -- we went downtown to make
19 sure that it was okay, that we would be allowed
20 to do what we permitted -- or tried -- did the
21 application for. And, you know, we built the
22 sign. It's done. They've paid their deposit
23 for it. They want it up, and they can't put it
24 up directly in front of the -- it's just not
25 large enough in area.
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1 MR. REDMAN: You're in the sign business.
2 Do you not know what the ordinances are and --
3 MR. GINZIG: No, I do understand the
4 ordinance --
5 MR. REDMAN: -- signs on a business?
6 MR. GINZIG: I do, but the fact of the
7 matter is that's why we came down, that's why I
8 asked for permission, if this would be okay,
9 before we built the sign, before we permitted
10 the sign. We had to get the permit in order to
11 build it. So we built the sign, we put it up,
12 and then it was failed. Afterwards, they --
13 after it was initially permitted as a sign that
14 was allowable or permissible, and then after
15 the fact they decided that it's not.
16 So there -- I mean, we can move it, but
17 the area that -- right above the door, for
18 example, would not be large enough for the
19 sign -- or the sign band area, for example, not
20 large enough. I don't know where else you'd --
21 where we could move it. I mean, we can move
22 onto the other side of this same wall, but then
23 it would be another roof sign.
24 There's no other area on this building,
25 the way the building is designed, for the sign
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1 to go up, and that's why we asked if it was
2 okay -- if this would pass as a wall sign
3 rather than a roof sign, and we were told it
4 would, and so that's why we applied for it. It
5 wasn't -- it wasn't anything in our
6 shortcomings of understanding the ordinance as
7 much as it was, this -- you know, it's a
8 strange building.
9 MR. REDMAN: So do you have something in
10 writing that says you were approved to put it
11 where you want to put it?
12 MR. GINZIG: Yes. We have a permit. We
13 have a permit issued. And then after that, the
14 sign was failed, the permit was failed and we
15 were told that it has to come down and you have
16 to either do the sign waiver to allow it up or
17 to -- or just, you know, take it down, but
18 that's after it was built, that's after we
19 received a permit, both an electrical and a
20 sign permit, and after we installed it.
21 MR. REDMAN: Okay. I mean, evidently, we
22 got a problem with a permit --
23 MR. GINZIG: I mean, it's not any of their
24 faults. I mean, I -- but it just seems like
25 there's a lack of communication between
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1 different departments and -- that matter, and,
2 you know, after -- after the fact.
3 You know, I can see where it can be
4 construed as a roof sign. I understand. It's
5 above the roof line; however, there is no other
6 place for it to be and it was approved.
7 MR. REDMAN: Yeah. Well, hopefully we'll
8 get it straightened out in two weeks.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
10 The sign is installed, correct?
11 MR. GINZIG: Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: And is it on just one side
13 of the wall or is it on --
14 MR. GINZIG: It's just on one side of the
15 wall.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: The interior side?
17 MR. GINZIG: It's on the interior side,
18 yeah.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Bishop.
20 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 Through the Chair to Mr. Kelly, this
22 particular sign, is it mounted to a structure
23 that is an extension of the wall below or is it
24 in a sense a pylon sign mounted on top of the
25 building in line with the wall below?
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1 MR. KELLY: My understanding is that it's
2 actually structurally integrated with the wall,
3 that it's not a stand-alone pylon sign, that it
4 would be a component of that end wall.
5 MR. BISHOP: So the wall extended up and a
6 sign face was placed on the wall?
7 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
8 MR. BISHOP: Okay. So, then, does the
9 sign -- this is for my own edification, then,
10 the sign ordinance prohibits signage on a wall
11 above a roof?
12 MR. KELLY: No. The -- the type of sign
13 would be allowed, it would be a roof sign. The
14 issue is the separation standards. If it was
15 on the wall of the building, in the front,
16 there would be no separation requirement with
17 the actual street frontage sign.
18 MR. BISHOP: Okay. That part I
19 understand. So a wall above a roof is not a
20 wall for purposes of the sign definition?
21 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
23 Mr. Reggie Brown.
24 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair to
25 Mr. Kelly, just want to make sure I understand
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1 the dates of event, and then also, when the
2 error occurred, how long was it before we
3 notified the applicants because what -- what
4 I'm understanding is that it was approved. So,
5 of course, paid for, built, and then installed.
6 And the applicant, in good faith, based on a
7 permit that was issued by our agency, moved
8 forward.
9 And I guess my -- my real question is
10 that -- you know, can we move forward -- I know
11 this is going to be deferred, but with an
12 exception because of the error made by our
13 office and the fact that it's already been
14 installed and there's no other way to correct
15 this error other than build another sign is
16 what I'm hearing.
17 MR. GINZIG: Well, we -- you know, we
18 spoke about this when it first came up, and,
19 you know, we -- we're fine with everything that
20 we've put in this waiver. You know, we
21 understand that. We're -- we understand that
22 these things happen, but, you know, I would
23 prefer to be able to be done with this. And,
24 you know, I understand that you have
25 constituents that you have to answer to and I
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1 understand that you have to deal with that,
2 but, I mean, it's been -- it's been months and
3 it's just going to push this back two more
4 weeks for -- or, what is it, the 19th, four
5 more weeks for this? And then I still have to
6 go to City Council again to get this approved.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, if this committee
8 were to take it up and send it to the City
9 Council -- you can certainly attend the council
10 meeting, but you're probably not going to be
11 able to speak at it at council.
12 MR. GINZIG: No, I understand that.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: The public hearing is going
14 to end here.
15 MR. GINZIG: Yeah. I'm not -- you know,
16 we're happy with everything that's on this
17 waiver. I mean, I understand that your
18 constituents might have issues with it, but is
19 there -- is that the most -- the next meeting
20 is four weeks?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, you know, I'm sorry
22 that it's come down to this. I've got a
23 request from the district council member. We
24 take those requests pretty seriously --
25 MR. GINZIG: I understand. I understand.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: -- and I'm going to honor
2 his request, so --
3 MR. GINZIG: Okay. That's fine.
4 Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: If there's a change of
6 heart by the district council member between
7 now and our next meeting, which will be in two
8 weeks, then we'll talk about it again, but --
9 MR. GINZIG: Is there any way that it
10 could be deferred two weeks?
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, we could do that.
12 What I'll do is I'll continue the public
13 hearing for two weeks, instead of four weeks,
14 so I'll continue it for two weeks, but --
15 unless the council member is on board --
16 MR. GINZIG: Right. I understand. I
17 understand.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: -- please come prepared to
19 have it extended or continued for another two
20 weeks, back to the 19th. Is that fair?
21 MR. GINZIG: That's fine.
22 Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you for
24 coming.
25 All right. So the public hearing will be
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1 continued for two weeks instead of -- until
2 April 19th.
3 MR. D. BROWN: Mr. Chairman.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, I'm sorry.
5 MR. D. BROWN: Could I ask one question?
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Besides that one?
7 MR. D. BROWN: Pardon me?
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Besides that one? Yes, you
9 may.
10 MR. D. BROWN: Can I ask two? Oh, I used
11 that one too, didn't I?
12 Mr. Holt rightfully wanted to get some
13 feedback back from Greater Arlington. Would it
14 be appropriate to take action on this
15 contingent on getting the feedback before the
16 next council meeting and find out if there's
17 any problems with it? Because it looks like
18 we'd be marching toward approving it, just at a
19 later date, but I was just thinking, if you
20 were satisfied between now and the council
21 meeting, then maybe everybody could move
22 forward with that, if you were satisfied with
23 it.
24 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hawkins, would you
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1 mind -- I know you're not --
2 MR. HAWKINS: Yes.
3 CHAIRMAN: Would you come to the podium?
4 (Mr. Hawkins approaches the podium.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you give me your name
6 and address? I know your name and address,
7 but --
8 MR. HAWKINS: Lad Hawkins, 1924 Holly Oaks
9 Lake Road West.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: And what's your capacity
11 with the Greater Arlington/Beaches CPAC?
12 MR. HAWKINS: I serve on the Land Use and
13 Zoning Subcommittee and I'm the Environmental
14 Subcommittee chair.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you see any way that the
16 Arlington/Beaches CPAC could address this
17 issue -- you just met last night; is that
18 correct?
19 MR. HAWKINS: Yeah.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. So your next
21 meeting is not for four weeks?
22 MR. HAWKINS: The second Monday, yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Second monday.
24 So is there any ability for you-all to
25 render an opinion before two weeks from
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1 tonight?
2 MR. HAWKINS: I don't think so, no, but we
3 could render it one day before your meeting a
4 month from now.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Got you.
6 All right. Thank you.
7 MR. HAWKINS: Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We're going to
9 continue the public hearing for two weeks and
10 we're deferring the bill.
11 Bottom of page 4 --
12 MR. REINGOLD: (Indicating.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
14 MR. REINGOLD: I'm sorry, this is being
15 just technical.
16 We're actually -- why don't we just open
17 and continue to April 5th. I believe there's a
18 fifth week involved, so there's actually a
19 little bit of lag time --
20 THE CHAIRMAN: A fifth week? Hallelujah.
21 April 5th, then. We'll continue the
22 public hearing until April 5th and no further
23 action on that bill.
24 Bottom of page 4, item 9, 2011-110, is
25 deferred.
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1 Turning to page 5, the top, item 10,
2 2011-111, is deferred. And then the remaining
3 items on the agenda, starting with item 11,
4 2011-151, through page 6, ending with item 18,
5 2011-159, all those bills are read second.
6 All right. So that takes us back to the
7 top of page 2 -- no, page 3, item 4, 2010-900.
8 Anybody here for that tonight, raise your
9 hand.
10 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Indicating.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, boy. Great.
12 All right. What we're going to do is --
13 well, let's see. Mr. -- we're going to get a
14 report from Mr. Kelly in just a moment, but we
15 are going to open the public hearing. I'm
16 going to take all the folks that are proponents
17 of the bill first and then all the opponents of
18 the bill second.
19 Our court reporter is good for two hours.
20 We started at 5:00, so wherever we are in the
21 format at 7 o'clock, we're going to have to
22 take a brief recess so that she can regain her
23 feelings in her fingertips. So we'll take,
24 like, a ten-minute break. We may be done by
25 then, I don't know, but I'm just going to tell
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1 you in advance that that's what's going to
2 happen.
3 So we'll start with the report from
4 Mr. Kelly.
5 Mr. Kelly.
6 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
7 To the Chair and Committee, ordinance
8 2010-900. This legislation, as you know, seeks
9 to amend both Chapter 362 and Chapter 656,
10 specifically Part 13, as it relates to sign
11 regulations.
12 What the bill does is basically clarify
13 the definition of a changing message device and
14 eliminates an inconsistency between definitions
15 of what's considered an animated sign and a
16 changing message device.
17 What the bill provides to do is to allow a
18 changing message device to change in two
19 different ways. One is, a message that
20 consists solely of words and numerals may
21 scroll continuously from left to right with all
22 other parts of the sign remaining static and
23 unchanged. Or, two, the entire face of the
24 sign must change simultaneously within one
25 second, after which the message must remain
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1 static for at least eight seconds before making
2 another entire face change.
3 The Department has reviewed this with
4 the -- for consistency with the comprehensive
5 plan, in addition to consistency with the State
6 Florida Administrative Code and Federal Highway
7 Administration policy memos. The Department
8 finds that this is consistent with the
9 comprehensive plan, that it would basically
10 reduce or mitigate for adverse land use impacts
11 on adjacent uses, obviously through the
12 noise -- or through the aesthetic controls and
13 visual aesthetic controls as it relates to the
14 dwell time -- the limited dwell time of eight
15 seconds.
16 Additionally, we find it consistent with
17 other land development regulations at the state
18 level as well as the federal level and
19 recommendations from the Federal Highway
20 Administration, specifically Florida
21 Administrative Code, Chapter 14-10 as it
22 relates to outdoor advertising sign
23 regulations; Section 14-10.004.
24 In addition to that, the Department has
25 reviewed this. We're supporting the bill as
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1 proposed; however, there was an amendment at
2 Planning Commission. The amendment was that
3 scrolling signs should be prohibited and also
4 that the hold time for a changing message board
5 should be three minutes instead of eight
6 seconds. The Department does not support that
7 amendment. However, we are supporting the bill
8 as originally drafted.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
10 All right. Is there a Nancy Landau in the
11 audience?
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Landau, I need you to
14 sign your speaker's card.
15 And, Mr. Sanders, I need you to sign your
16 speaker's card as well, if you'll come on
17 forward and do that.
18 Bonnie -- - I'm sorry. We have a public
19 hearing scheduled this evening. The public
20 hearing is open. I have several speakers'
21 cards. We will start with the proponents of
22 the bill.
23 Bonnie Modling, you turned in a card, but
24 you do not want to speak. Are you here?
25 Is that correct?
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Nods head.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
3 All right. Ronny Andrews, you turned in a
4 card, but you don't want to speak?
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Nods head.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Vince Serrano.
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to speak, sir?
9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I just wanted to see how
10 you handle this, John.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, thanks for
12 being here.
13 That's one of my opponents.
14 Ms. Coleman-Rao, would you like to speak?
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Come on down.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
19 Angie Coleman-Rao, 11578 Derby Forest
20 Drive, and I'm here today representing my
21 employer, Jax Federal Credit Union. We own one
22 of these signs and it's located at our branch
23 on 103rd Street. We've had it for several
24 years and it has really helped our business.
25 We can build awareness about our products and
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1 services.
2 We're supporting eight seconds because it
3 allows us to give clear and conspicuous
4 disclosure. We're heavily regulated by the
5 NCOA, and there are so many regulations that we
6 must comply with. For example, we could put on
7 our sign "Auto loans as low as 3%." That's a
8 trigger term, so it requires additional
9 disclosure such as "for well-qualified
10 borrowers, a 16-month" -- you have to state
11 more than just, you know, what it is.
12 And we really want to avoid, you know,
13 flashing kind of Las-Vegas-style signs, and
14 we're a, you know, classy organization and, you
15 know, we feel that a smooth transition between
16 messages is not distracting.
17 Also, it's very passive advertising. If
18 you don't look at it, it's -- and it's not
19 flashing and doing crazy things; you know, it's
20 a very passive form of advertising. If you're
21 sitting at a stoplight, you're able to, you
22 know, watch the messages go through, and then
23 the light turns green and you can go on.
24 You know, a sign changing every three
25 minutes would be a really long span between
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1 getting that interest rate of -- as low as 3%,
2 you still don't know the term. You know, you
3 don't have enough information to do that. And
4 the space on our sign doesn't always allow --
5 to put everything out there.
6 So, you know, we haven't had any traffic
7 accidents or anything like that. And, you
8 know, businesses are hurting in this economy.
9 And we had purchased an old, abandoned building
10 and, you know, we renovated that building. We
11 put up our beautiful, modern LED sign and, you
12 know, we plant flowers around it in the spring
13 and it isn't an eyesore as the old abandoned
14 building was. And, you know, we need that
15 eight-second rotation in order to provide that
16 clear and conspicuous disclosure that's
17 required by our regulators.
18 Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
20 Couple of questions from -- don't go
21 anywhere. You've got a couple of questions.
22 Councilman Reggie Brown, followed by Mr.
23 Redman, and then Mr. Bishop.
24 MR. R. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 Through the Chair, you did answer my
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1 second question. I was going to ask about
2 accidents on 103rd or in your parking lot, and
3 what I understand is, at this time, no --
4 MS. COLEMAN-RAE: No. And I'm sure that
5 people would not hesitate to come in and blame
6 a financial institution if they had an accident
7 as a result of, you know, something that we
8 did.
9 MR. R. BROWN: Right, which was actually
10 going to lead into my other question about any
11 complaints at this time that anyone has filed
12 with your organization.
13 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: No, not all.
14 I mean, we're in a very heavily -- it's
15 all commercial businesses and so it clearly is
16 zoned, you know, for a business district. And
17 so, you know, residents are far removed from
18 the -- you know, the illumination of our sign
19 and, you know, it isn't just -- you know, where
20 it's supposed to be. It's advertising.
21 MR. R. BROWN: Approximately, how many
22 seconds currently do your signs change at this
23 time?
24 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: Well, when we first --
25 you know, when I first started coming to these
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1 meetings, you know, when I heard eight seconds,
2 I really -- I wanted to see what that looked
3 like. So we actually have had our sign
4 programmed at eight seconds, and it's quite
5 a -- eight seconds is a long time. If you,
6 like, just sit here and look at your watch for
7 eight seconds, I mean, that's a lot of time.
8 And that's exactly -- if you want to see our
9 sign, drive by 103rd Street, and it's actually
10 at eight seconds right now.
11 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. This is the last
12 question. Have you tried it for three minutes
13 yet to just observe one of your signs; like,
14 you gave an illustration of 3.9% interest rate,
15 and then sit there and wait for three minutes?
16 Have you tried that to see whether or not --
17 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: No, I haven't.
18 MR. R. BROWN: -- it would be just as
19 effective?
20 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: Well, actually the way
21 that the cars are passing through that
22 intersection, unless they were to pull into our
23 parking lot and sit there and watch our sign
24 change, they would be, you know, at two
25 stoplights down in a three-minute time span.
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1 So, you know, the traffic does move through
2 there pretty quickly unless there's, you know,
3 traffic jams or something.
4 MR. R. BROWN: I just want to make sure I
5 understand what you're saying. Then from your
6 vantage point, that if we were to agree to have
7 this sign rotate every three minutes, it would
8 probably impede traffic on 103rd?
9 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: No, no, no. I'm sorry.
10 That wasn't what I was stating at all.
11 What I intended to say was that the
12 traffic going by there would be long gone
13 before they got the complete disclosure.
14 MR. R. BROWN: But if they wanted to
15 stop --
16 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: If they wanted to pull
17 in --
18 MR. R. BROWN: -- and read it --
19 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: Right.
20 MR. R. BROWN: -- on 103rd, it would
21 definitely impede traffic, so they would have
22 to pull into your --
23 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: Right.
24 MR. R. BROWN: -- location?
25 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: Yes.
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1 MR. R. BROWN: Okay.
2 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: And I do believe this is
3 a passive form of advertising. Like all
4 signage, somebody has to actually look or
5 glance at the sign in order to read it. It's
6 not like it's, like, in their face or anything
7 like that. It's -- you know, it's a -- it's a
8 passive form. So --
9 MR. R BROWN: Thank you so much.
10 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: Okay. Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
12 What would be an example of a non-passive
13 form of advertising?
14 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: I think one that you
15 would interact with, that would be -- for
16 instance, if you were on the Internet and you
17 get a Pop-Up, that would be a -- non-passive.
18 It would be actually coming up and in your way,
19 you know. It doesn't happen, luckily, when
20 we're driving, so --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: And what was your -- when
22 you reprogrammed your sign to eight seconds,
23 what was it operating at prior to you
24 reprogramming it to eight seconds?
25 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: I'm not really sure.
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1 We always have avoided, you know, flashing
2 strobe effects and things like that because we
3 want people to read and not, you know, get in a
4 traffic accident, so we've intentionally tried
5 to be safe and have that, you know, frame of
6 mind.
7 So I don't know that we had actually timed
8 it out, but we -- what we would do is when we
9 programmed the sign, we would look, could we
10 read it? Yes. Then we would transfer on to
11 the next screen. And so it was really managed
12 more by your ability to read the thought before
13 it moved on to the next one.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
15 Councilman Redman.
16 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair, so you
17 feel like it would impede business if this was
18 more than eight seconds?
19 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: Absolutely. And
20 primarily because of the -- it would limit our
21 ability to market certain products. You know,
22 right now we have money to lend. We really
23 need to get some loans out there into the
24 community. And so to be compelling -- you
25 know, if you just say "Auto Loans," people
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1 already know you offer auto loans. What the
2 compelling advertisement is, is what is that
3 rate, how low are your auto loans. You know,
4 3% is a pretty good rate right now. And so if
5 we can get that message out there to people who
6 live in that community and drive by that
7 business district, that helps business. So
8 yes, it's important.
9 MR. REDMAN: Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
11 Mr. Bishop.
12 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 You indicated that you need the eight
14 seconds so that you can display all of the
15 disclosure information that you're required to
16 do because you're in a heavily regulated
17 business.
18 At eight seconds -- and since these signs
19 are geared toward motorists, for the average
20 driver driving down 103rd Street, at eight
21 seconds a clip, how much of that disclosure
22 statement do you think one is actually going to
23 logically see?
24 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: Well, the full
25 disclosure statement that we're required is "to
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1 see inside for details." So we can't provide
2 every little finite mice print that is normally
3 in a printed ad. And our regulations do allow
4 that as long as it's accompanied by the
5 language, "see inside for details." So that
6 when they -- you know, something piques their
7 interests, they see "Auto loans as low as 3%,"
8 they pull in to, you know, check inside and get
9 the complete details, get pre-qualified,
10 hopefully, before they shop, and then we can,
11 you know, get the auto loan and they get a new
12 car.
13 MR. BISHOP: So your sign can't say "Auto
14 loans 3%, see inside for details" in one fell
15 swoop?
16 MS. COLEMAN RAO: It does have to say --
17 the trigger term is the rate, and so it does
18 also have to disclose the term, which would be
19 16 months, 38 -- you know, 36 months, 48,
20 whatever the term is.
21 So there are certain things that we do
22 have to disclose and, you know, term is one of
23 those. And many times you can't crowd that
24 all -- you'd have to get your font so small to
25 get it all on one screen, and that would sort
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1 of defeat the purpose.
2 MR. BISHOP: So is your sign a single-line
3 sign?
4 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: We can do -- based on
5 the font size, we can do single or double, I
6 believe.
7 MR. BISHOP: So even with two lines, you
8 can't say, "Auto loans 3% APR, see inside for
9 details"?
10 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: No, I do not believe so.
11 MR. BISHOP: Not a very big sign.
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
14 Mr. Brown, for the second time.
15 MR. R BROWN: Yes. And a perfect segue to
16 my question -- and it's through the Chair.
17 You used the language, "defeat the
18 purpose," eight seconds versus three minutes.
19 And I'm just wondering, so we as a body can
20 have that realtime experience, what it would be
21 like maybe if you-all can start a sign, put it
22 up, and we sit here for three minutes and then
23 we change it so we as a body can get an
24 experience as to what it's like for -- an
25 individual passing by would have if they had to
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1 either pull over to read the sign --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Did anybody bring a sign
3 with them?
4 MR. BROWN If we could do something like
5 that so we can get a realtime experience.
6 MS. COLEMAN-RAO: I do believe there's
7 a --
8 MR. KELLY: I was going to say -- the
9 lighting system is a three-minute speaker rule
10 usually pre-set for the meetings.
11 MR. R. BROWN: Would you like to -- for us
12 to take a moment (inaudible) so all of us can
13 experience this three-minute wait time?
14 THE CHAIRMAN: It's up to the committee.
15 I think I know what -- yeah, we can do it on
16 the next speaker.
17 MR. BROWN Okay. That would be great.
18 Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Excellent.
20 Any other questions for Ms. Coleman-Rao.
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for being here
23 tonight. You've made many trips, ma'am.
24 All right. Next speaker is Albert
25 Fitzgerald.
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'll defer, sir.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Defer?
3 Are you here?
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Gerri Sexsion.
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Very good.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Did I pronounce it
8 correctly?
9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, sir.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: You have to pronounce mine
11 when you come up to the podium.
12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay. I'll do my best.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll trade.
14 No, I'm just teasing.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm Gerri Sexsion. My
17 address is 721 Greystone Lane.
18 I am representing Jax Federal Credit
19 Union, also as Angie was. I'm the president
20 and CEO. We have 34,000 members in Northeast
21 Florida. As Angie mentioned, we do have one
22 branch, the branch on 103rd, that does have a
23 sign. I very often worked there, and the sign
24 at the eight seconds is -- it's a little long,
25 but I think it's doable. The three minutes, I
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1 think we would end up with losing the interest
2 of drivers as they go by.
3 I wanted to add one thing. Angie talked a
4 lot about the disclosure issue, which is true.
5 We do have a number of disclosures, and you
6 have to balance that against how much you can
7 put on that sign because it is limited to two
8 lines, as I recall. So that -- it answers that
9 question there. We can't really get that full
10 statement out in one pass of the message.
11 The other item I do want to talk about,
12 too, is that we currently employ six people
13 there -- six full-time employees and one
14 part-time employee -- and the capacity there is
15 for three more people. And if we, you know,
16 lose that sign, we really feel that we'll lose
17 one important avenue of advertising that -- if
18 we could increase the business there, we could
19 employ possibly three more people from the
20 community, and I know that jobs are very
21 important.
22 So that was all I had to say.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
24 Any questions from the Committee?
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Sexsion, if you had a
2 bigger sign, could you get all the message on
3 there at once?
4 MS. SEXSION: Yes. I think if -- but
5 again, I think -- if I recall correctly, that
6 was limited when we permitted for the
7 renovations back in 2006.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: The size of the sign?
9 MS. SEXSION: Uh-huh.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
11 All right. Thank you.
12 MS. SEXSION: Okay. Thanks.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sanders.
14 (Mr. Sanders approaches the podium.)
15 MR. SANDERS: Good evening, Mr. Chairman
16 and members of the Committee.
17 Karl Sanders, 6 East Bay Street.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Before you start
19 Mr. Sanders' time -- Mr. Sanders, are you
20 representing anybody tonight?
21 MR. SANDERS: I represent Clear Channel
22 Outdoor.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Do you mind -- I
24 didn't catch that earlier, but you'll need to
25 amend your card and declare that.
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1 That's okay. You can just -- you can just
2 finish this when you're done. Go ahead.
3 MR. SANDERS: Where would I write that on
4 here?
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Where it says if you're
6 representing somebody.
7 MR. SANDERS: Okay. It's the same form I
8 filled out earlier, but I'll be happy to do
9 that.
10 Hopefully, we won't do the three-minute
11 silent experiment on me, Councilmember Brown.
12 But before I do start, I just have a few
13 comments before I do start. I do think what
14 the first speaker said is worthwhile to think
15 about. Eight seconds doesn't sound like a long
16 time. Particularly when you're driving, it's a
17 lot longer than you think. So let me pause for
18 eight seconds.
19 (Pause in the proceedings.)
20 MR. SANDERS: That's not a flashing sign.
21 That's a changing message sign. That's a
22 changing message sign that the Federal Highway
23 Administration says is a reasonable and safe
24 interval for changing electronic messages, and
25 that's what the ordinance before you this
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1 evening proposes to do.
2 When we were at the Planning Commission,
3 we had several hearings and a workshop. I
4 believe it was at the last meeting that
5 Brinton's closing was as follows: He urged the
6 Commission to go back. Let's go back is what
7 he said. Let's go back to where we were
8 25 years ago, and let's go back to an arbitrary
9 three-minute hold time.
10 What I would urge this committee to do
11 this evening is quite the opposite. I would
12 urge you to follow the lead of the Public
13 Health and Safety Committee, and I would urge
14 you to go forward. Let's go forward, not back.
15 Let's embrace this digital technology that's
16 available today that wasn't around or as
17 prevalent 25 years ago. Let's help our small
18 businesses like the ones that you just heard
19 from, as well as the big ones. Let's help them
20 get their messages out more efficiently and
21 more effectively. Let's help our churches do
22 the same thing. Let's help them spread their
23 messages to as many people as they possibly
24 can, and let's help our local nonprofits do the
25 same as well.
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1 Let's regulate the operation of this
2 technology, but let's do it based on facts, not
3 fears. When you plant the seed of fear in
4 people, when you demonize the opposition, when
5 you sensationalize the facts, you get bad law.
6 Let's not do that. Let's move forward, not
7 back, and I urge this Committee to follow the
8 lead of PHS and approve 2010-900.
9 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Sanders.
11 And I do need you to check the box on your
12 card. Where it says, Are you a registered
13 lobbyist, you'll have to check yes or no.
14 MR. SANDERS: Okay.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions for
16 Mr. Sanders?
17 MR. BISHOP: Yes.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop.
19 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 Mr. Sanders, the federal standards that
21 you referenced, were those for on-site or
22 off-site signage?
23 MR. SANDERS: Those are for off-site
24 signage.
25 MR. BISHOP: Okay. How does that relate
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1 to on-site signage?
2 MR. SANDERS: They're both changing
3 message signs.
4 MR. BISHOP: Are there any distance
5 criteria in those federal standards between
6 changing message signs or would they be allowed
7 under Federal Rules essentially -- sequentially
8 with no distance requirement?
9 MR. SANDERS: Under the Federal Highway
10 Beautification Act, there are distance
11 limitations. In Jacksonville, there are
12 limitations as well.
13 MR. BISHOP: Okay. So if we were to
14 strictly follow those standards, how would
15 that -- what impact would that be on the
16 on-site signage on commercial zoning districts
17 that essentially allow a sign on -- if you have
18 a whole street full of appropriately-zoned
19 parcels, how do you rectify the two?
20 MR. SANDERS: Right. Well, if we're
21 talking about a parade of horribles, I don't
22 think that's what you'll see.
23 MR. BISHOP: Well, I'm just asking how you
24 rectify the standards, that's all.
25 MR. SANDERS: I don't -- I'm not here to
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1 rectify the standards. I'm -- just to point to
2 an example that I think works and has worked
3 well.
4 But there are regulations in the current
5 zoning ordinance that do, I believe -- and I
6 would not be the expert on this, that would be
7 your staff, but -- that regulate, for example,
8 I believe, the distance from intersections for
9 on-site signage in that -- in that manner.
10 But there are none, to my knowledge, that
11 regulate the distance between, you know, one
12 sign in the middle of Beach Boulevard and
13 another one.
14 MR. BISHOP: Okay. That's what I had
15 thought.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. SANDERS: Yes.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sanders, your
19 eight-second example, you said that wasn't a --
20 can you say that again? Following your eight-
21 second quiet period, you said that wasn't the
22 example of what? A flashing sign?
23 MR. SANDERS: That is correct.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: What would, in your mind,
25 constitute a flashing sign, how many seconds?
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1 MR. SANDERS: (Indicating.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Like multiple times a
3 second?
4 MR. SANDERS: Multiple times. Maybe once
5 every one second.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Every one second. Okay.
7 All right. Any other questions?
8 Mr. Reggie Brown.
9 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair to
10 Legal, Mr. Reingold. I just want to make sure
11 that we're in the correct posture legally
12 regarding -- you know, I keep hearing possible
13 violations of regulations of policies dealing
14 with on-site, off-site, distance; now, you
15 know, flashing signs. If we're in the right
16 posture to move forward, I just need some
17 clarification because what I don't want to do
18 is make a decision and we're not in the right
19 posture.
20 I believe that our Planning Department
21 would not lead us astray, but I just need to
22 hear from Legal that we're in the right posture
23 to make a decision today and we're not
24 violating any regulations or policies.
25 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair to the
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1 council member, we are absolutely in the right
2 posture today to take this up.
3 Essentially, what this bill is is defining
4 what a changing message device is. That's all
5 this bill does.
6 MR. R. BROWN: Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
8 Mr. Redman, question for Mr. Sanders?
9 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair to
10 Mr. Sanders. Mr. Sanders, you have a business
11 that requires you to have signage?
12 MR. SANDERS: Not really. I'm an
13 attorney, so the type of law that I practice,
14 we don't really rely upon signage.
15 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions for
17 Mr. Sanders?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Our next
20 speaker is Randy Taylor, followed by Anthony
21 Romano.
22 Mr. Romano, if you want to work your way
23 forward, that might save a few minutes.
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I defer, sir.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: You defer. Okay.
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1 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Randy Taylor, 4162
3 St. Augustine Road, Jacksonville, Florida.
4 And, yes, I've been here many times
5 myself. I am in favor, of course, of 2010-900.
6 Unfortunately, a lot of my client base is
7 not able to attend a lot of these meetings --
8 as many of these meetings as I have. They are
9 concentrating on trying to grow their business
10 and they do have a definite interest in the
11 outcome of this.
12 This law was written back in 1987 allowing
13 changeable message devices to be displayed in
14 Jacksonville. So for many years, businesses
15 have been buying these boards and increasing
16 their business and working off the old law.
17 I agree this needs to be regulated. The
18 way it sits right now, the interpretation of
19 the law, these signs are flashing and they are
20 a distraction. This eight-second rule will now
21 put some restraint on these boards to where
22 they have to conform and they have a certain
23 purpose now and they are easy to read and you
24 won't have flashing and bombs and fireworks
25 going off in the background. So this is a
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1 positive step in the right direction.
2 The three minutes, that's not what these
3 boards are designed for. These boards are
4 designed for a quick three- to eight-second
5 time hold so that the information can get out
6 quickly to the public and in a positive
7 fashion. They are a -- they are a passive type
8 of advertising. They -- it all depends on how
9 it's used and how it's regulated, and that's
10 what your job here tonight is to do is to
11 regulate those things, but not to go above and
12 beyond and over-regulate. Over-regulating just
13 hurts business. Right now, we're in a bad
14 economy. Business people are reaching out to
15 the public to get their businesses going.
16 These signs allow them to do that.
17 We're in a new age of technology. We can
18 go back to the old boards where the guy has got
19 the stick out there and the wind's blowing and
20 his letters are flying off into the air, and
21 the boards get mildewed and they look nasty,
22 and after several years they're all mildewed
23 and dark and the letters are yellowed-out. If
24 that's what you want to propose for
25 Jacksonville? I don't think so. That's not
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1 the way to go. This is a new technology. It's
2 just like -- you know, you look at your cell
3 phones. Now we have iPhones. We have iPads.
4 We have to kind of flow with technology. And
5 what your job, I think, to do is to kind of
6 look at that. And, yes, we do want to regulate
7 it, but we don't want to over-regulate.
8 So I'm just here tonight to throw my
9 thoughts out here. And if you guys have any
10 questions for me -- I've been in the sign
11 business for 13 years. I've sold these boards
12 to people. I've gotten feedback from these
13 people. These boards do positive things. If
14 they're done in a correct fashion and a good
15 manner, it is a positive thing for
16 Jacksonville. It's not a blighted thing.
17 They're only allowed in certain areas. They
18 allowed in commercial, CCG-1, -2, industrial
19 light zoning areas. They're not allowed in the
20 rural residential. They're not allowed in COs,
21 the CROs, or Commercial-Residential-Office, or
22 mingled in with businesses that look like
23 houses. They're not allowed in those areas.
24 There is a certain area for them, there's
25 a certain place for them, and they're
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1 restricted in size. Size is dictated by the
2 length of the property. If you've got a
3 50-foot length of property in the front of your
4 property, you're allowed to have a
5 50-square-foot sign.
6 And that's pretty much -- my time is up.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Taylor.
8 Questions from the committee?
9 Mr. Holt.
10 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
11 Through the Chair, you have got quite a
12 bit of experience with these signs, so I wanted
13 to ask you some specifics about what's out
14 there.
15 There's been some discussion with
16 scrolling signs and flashing signs and -- can
17 you give me an idea of what percentage out
18 there are capable only of scrolling?
19 MR. TAYLOR: The boards are definitely
20 capable of doing more than just scrolling.
21 That's what they're designed for. That part of
22 it is regulated by the person controlling the
23 sign. There is a -- there is a way that you
24 can program these for flashing or scrolling or
25 spinning. There are special effects.
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1 MR. HOLT: So what you're saying is that
2 any board -- any sign out there that we see
3 scrolling with lights is most likely also
4 capable of putting out a message -- a static
5 message -- for eight seconds?
6 MR. TAYLOR: Yes.
7 MR. HOLT: Okay. Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions for
9 Mr. Taylor?
10 Mr. Bishop, followed by Councilman Dick
11 Brown.
12 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 Mr. Taylor, what is your understanding of
14 the sign ordinance right now regarding
15 animation?
16 MR. TAYLOR: Animation doesn't apply to a
17 changing message device. They are two separate
18 items.
19 MR. BISHOP: I understand that, but part
20 of the rationale for the eight seconds in this
21 ordinance is to clean up what we have -- is to,
22 in a sense, control the flashing bombs and all
23 of the fancy flashing lights --
24 MR. TAYLOR: Correct.
25 MR. BISHOP: -- and that this ordinance
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1 would do that.
2 MR. TAYLOR: Right.
3 MR. BISHOP: So my question is, what is
4 your understanding of the ordinance right now
5 relating to flashing bombs and flashing lights
6 and all that sort of thing?
7 MR. TAYLOR: It's not my position to
8 interpret what that is, but I can say that
9 there's a lot of that going on, but this new
10 eight-second rule would stop that.
11 MR. BISHOP: I have a question to
12 Mr. Reingold.
13 It's my understanding the sign ordinance
14 right now prohibits animation on signs. Am I
15 correct on that?
16 MR. REINGOLD: Our ordinance code
17 currently does not allow animated signs.
18 MR. BISHOP: So this ordinance really has
19 nothing to do with animation?
20 MR. REINGOLD: That is correct. It deals
21 specifically with changing message devices.
22 MR. BISHOP: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
24 MR. BISHOP: No.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop, you done?
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1 MR. BISHOP: Yes.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Dick Brown.
3 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 Concerning the scrolling signs, I've seen
5 a couple of -- in fact, I think it was schools
6 that had a strip -- a long strip, and it may
7 not be the newest generation of signs. Are
8 there some that were made, to start with, that
9 only scroll? These look like they were just
10 designed for a one line and I just wondered
11 if --
12 MR. TAYLOR: Not really. Most of them are
13 designed to do other things. It's just really
14 the person that's controlling it, their intent
15 might be just to get that scrolling message
16 out. That's all they want. Some of the
17 time -- my customers are not always looking for
18 the bombs and the things. They're just looking
19 to get the message out there, such as Jax
20 Federal Credit Union. They just want to get a
21 scrolling message that gets the message out
22 there, and that's what I would say probably 80
23 to 90 percent of my customers are looking for.
24 There are the few that want to do -- you know,
25 get the attention and do the distraction to get
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1 people's attention, but that's -- that's a few.
2 That's not -- that's not the majority of the
3 people that buy these boards. Their intent is
4 to get a message out, to get people in the door
5 to generate business so they can grow.
6 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
8 Any other questions for Mr. Taylor?
9 MR. REINGOLD: (Indicating.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold, do you have a
11 question?
12 MR. REINGOLD: I do not have a question
13 for Mr. Taylor. I actually have a
14 clarification --
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Can I excuse
16 Mr. Taylor?
17 MR. REINGOLD: You're certainly allowed to
18 excuse Mr. Taylor.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Taylor.
20 MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, gentlemen.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: And before you go,
22 Mr. Reingold, I have two other questions.
23 Is there a Leroy Kelly here?
24 MR. ARPEN: He stepped outside, briefly.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Does anybody know if he's
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1 an opponent or a proponent?
2 MR. ARPEN: He's in opposition to the
3 bill.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And Jasmine Quezada,
5 are you here?
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you a proponent or an
8 opponent?
9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry?
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I believe -- I'm just
12 representing --
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you for or against the
14 bill?
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm for. Sorry.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: For the bill. Okay.
17 All right. Mr. Reingold.
18 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, I kind of
19 wanted to clarify my answer to Mr. Bishop -- or
20 Councilmember Bishop.
21 Essentially, right now, what it says is
22 animated signs are signs with motion, action,
23 flashing, other light or color changes.
24 However, it does not include changing message
25 devices. So if a sign were to change every
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1 eight seconds -- if it were to change any more
2 than that, that would be an animated sign. If
3 it were to -- the rule were to say it needs to
4 hold for a minute, then anything that held for
5 under a minute would be an animated sign.
6 So there is some sort of effect on
7 animation, but the idea of animation being
8 otherwise motion, action, flashing of lights,
9 dancing bears, the whole nine yards, those are
10 animated, those don't change. But if it was to
11 change -- essentially the changing that -- the
12 changing message device definition essentially
13 would dump some other signs into being animated
14 signs.
15 MR. BISHOP: Mr. Chairman, I did
16 understand that.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
18 MR. BISHOP: Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
20 Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
21 Ms. Quezada. I'm probably not pronouncing
22 your name correctly, am I?
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Quezada.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Quezada. Okay.
25 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hello.
2 I'm Jasmine Quezada, 2592 Benjamin --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you pull that
4 microphone down just a little bit so we can
5 make sure we hear you?
6 MS. QUEZADA: Five foot three, I know.
7 Jasmine Quezada, 2592 Benjamin Road.
8 I represent Don Juan's Mexican Restaurant.
9 My parents own the restaurant, and we have a
10 sign on our property. The marquis helps us
11 advertise to our customers whenever we have
12 food and bar specials. We also like to
13 announce any special events, holidays, you
14 know, Merry Christmas, anything just kind of --
15 just makes our customers well aware that we
16 have specials and just, you know, thinking of
17 them for the holidays.
18 We also announce, you know, our -- we
19 place messages for the city so it respects --
20 for the city that respects thank you awarding
21 more years for the Florida/Georgia games. We
22 just do a lot of advertising with our -- with
23 our sign.
24 Our sign just holds, like, two lines. It
25 switches off. Nothing ever -- nothing flashy.
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1 Just pretty much simple, to the point, our
2 specials, Margarita Mondays, and right now we
3 have Margarita Mondays and St. Paddy -- Happy
4 St. Paddy's Day, since St. Paddy's Day is right
5 around the corner.
6 I mean, we're for the eight-second rule.
7 We don't really need anything long, nothing too
8 distracting. Our location is on -- like, on
9 San Jose and Mandarin. It's right before the
10 Julington Creek Bridge, so it kind of attracts
11 the people from St. Johns County and Mandarin
12 going back and forth. I mean, we like our
13 sign.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
15 Any questions from the Committee?
16 Mr. Redman.
17 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair to
18 Ms. Quezada, do you feel like the -- anything
19 over eight seconds would be detrimental to your
20 business?
21 MS. QUEZADA: I don't believe that. I
22 believe that anything -- whatever we have to
23 say, we just say it straight to the point.
24 We're not trying to -- like I said, we're not
25 trying to distract anyone. We're just trying
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1 to get our little message out of what specials
2 we have to offer. I mean, the three-minute
3 rule, I -- I just see people not -- I mean, how
4 long it takes, I don't see it being beneficial
5 to us. I feel like it would be -- it would
6 defeat the purpose of even having a sign.
7 MR. REDMAN: How often does your sign
8 change -- the message change, at this point?
9 MS. QUEZADA: I want to say, like -- I
10 would say probably every ten seconds or so.
11 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
13 Any other questions?
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: You're having a
16 St. Patrick's Day special at the Don Juan's
17 Mexican Restaurant; did I get that right?
18 MS. QUEZADA: Yeah.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, that's what I
20 call multicultural. And I don't want to ask
21 what tonight's special is because we're all
22 hungry, so we're not going to even go there.
23 Any other questions?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for coming down.
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1 MS. QUEZADA: Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Anybody else care to
3 address the Committee? That's all the
4 speaker's cards I have in support of the bill.
5 Anyone else care to address the Committee in
6 support of the bill?
7 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none,
9 then, I have a big stack of those in opposition
10 to the bill. And it's ten till 7:00, so maybe
11 before we get into that -- Diane, do you want
12 to do a break? How much time do you need?
13 (Discussion held off the record.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Ten minutes.
15 All right. We're going to take a
16 ten-minute recess. We will reconvene at
17 8 o'clock exactly, so don't go very far. I
18 mean 7 o'clock. 7 o'clock. Yeah, I set my
19 clock ahead two hours.
20 There's restrooms out in the hallway if
21 anybody needs to visit those.
22 So we're going to stand adjourned and
23 restart in ten minutes.
24 (Brief recess.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We are going to
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1 reconvene the Land Use and Zoning Committee
2 meeting. It's about 7:04.
3 Let the record reflect that
4 Councilman Bishop's in attendance,
5 Councilman Holt, myself, and Councilman
6 Dick Brown.
7 All right. We're still in public hearing.
8 Mr. Redman -- and yeah, and let the
9 record reflect that Mr. Redman is here as well.
10 We're still in public hearing and we have
11 about 14 yellow cards for opponents of the
12 bill.
13 The first speaker will be Patrick Corrado.
14 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
16 I'm Patrick Corrado. I reside at 12709
17 Mandarin Road. I'm here on behalf of the
18 Southeast CPAC this evening.
19 On February the 15th, Chairman Crescimbeni
20 sent a letter out to us -- to all of the CPAC
21 Chairs -- regarding input as to how we would
22 recommend procedure on this.
23 We submitted a letter opposing --
24 supporting the Planning Commission's --
25 opposing the ordinance and supporting the
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1 Planning Commission's two amendments to the
2 ordinance. I hope that you-all received that
3 in your e-mails. I think it was sent via
4 e-mail.
5 My concerns, and our concerns, during our
6 discussions have been primarily with the safety
7 aspects of the scrolling or the
8 constantly-changing signs. A lot of references
9 have been made this evening to the fact that
10 people are driving along and they want to get a
11 message to them. And they've compared a lot of
12 these to the Federal Highway situations where
13 there's a four-second criteria that's been set
14 forth. If you -- if you're driving on the
15 interstate and you see that highway sign right
16 above your head that changes every four
17 seconds, the purpose of that sign is to -- is
18 for public safety; okay, is to inform you of
19 things that are happening on the highway, and
20 it changes so that it does inform you and you
21 have enough time to read it one or two times
22 before you get through the sign actually.
23 These signs that we're talking about, they're
24 not for public safety. They're to distract the
25 public.
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1 Our concerns during our discussions were
2 we have enough distractions on the highway
3 today on our roadways. Travel down San Jose
4 Boulevard and you'll see people fixing their
5 hair, fixing their makeup, checking their
6 phones, reading the newspaper even. Our
7 concerns are do we really need more
8 distractions?
9 And while we don't want to inhibit
10 advertising for small business -- I'm a small
11 business owner, too, and I understand the need
12 for it, but we don't want to inhibit the
13 advertising or to penalize small business.
14 During our discussions, the entire CPAC
15 felt that this is a public safety issue. We
16 hope that you will consider that when you
17 consider this.
18 Thank you very much for your time.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
20 Questions from the Committee?
21 Mr. Redman.
22 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair, do you
23 know of any accidents that were created by
24 these signs?
25 MR. CORRADO: Not specifically by these
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1 signs, no, sir, I don't. I couldn't relate to
2 one.
3 MR. REDMAN: Okay. In the CPAC
4 discussions, did anybody there come up with an
5 accident that they knew about that was created
6 by these signs?
7 MR. CORRADO: I couldn't really say that
8 anybody came up with a specific instance, no,
9 sir.
10 MR. REDMAN: All right. Thank you.
11 MR. CORRADO: Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Corrado.
13 Our next speaker is John Allmand.
14 MR. MANN: He had to go home.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: He had to go home? Okay.
16 Leslie Goller.
17 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Leslie Goller, 2247
19 Smullian Trail South.
20 I'm here and I've turned in several forms
21 that people have signed petitions, probably
22 about 40, that are in opposition to this bill
23 as it stands. As a matter of fact, of all the
24 people that I've talked to, except for the
25 proponents that come to these meetings, I've
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1 only met one person that has said that they
2 actually support this bill. Everyone that I
3 talked to is against it, and you should be --
4 realize that by all the different members of
5 the CPAC that are coming forward and telling
6 you that they oppose this bill.
7 We have to decide -- you know, you've
8 gotten painted tonight and it was advocated, it
9 was very lawyerly, to try to tell the story
10 that this is mom and pop, mom and apple pie,
11 and we need to move forward. We need to think
12 about what kind of city we want Jacksonville to
13 be. We're not punishing small business. We're
14 not punishing sign or -- sign-makers or people
15 that have signs by having a three-minute rule.
16 We're actually supporting what our own city's
17 organization had decided was an acceptable hold
18 time.
19 If you look at it, you know, and you're
20 trying to look at it, let's have a compromise,
21 we're only going to do the eight seconds.
22 That's not the compromise. The compromise is
23 the three minutes. If it was me -- and I used
24 to be on the Environmental Protection Board,
25 and basically these electronic signs are sign
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1 pollution. Let's get that straight. I
2 wouldn't be having electronic signs if I had my
3 way. The compromise is the three-minute rule,
4 and you need to realize that that is the
5 compromise.
6 Another thing you need to realize, too, is
7 how much this is going to cost the City if we
8 end up having these electronic, megatron, jumbo
9 billboards.
10 In other litigation that's going on, when
11 there's a so-called taking, when the City
12 decides that they want to take it down, they've
13 said that one of those costs $11 million. I'm
14 a taxpayer. I don't want to pay $11 million to
15 Clear Channel or any of the other companies
16 that put up these giant billboards to take when
17 our roads are going to have to get widened
18 because we are a growing city. So think about
19 that. You've got to do the responsible thing
20 for us as taxpayers.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Goller.
23 Any questions from the Committee?
24 Mr. Redman.
25 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair,
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1 Ms. Goller, do you have a business that would
2 require a sign?
3 MS. GOLLER: I'm a lawyer. And as a
4 matter of fact, we've had billboards in the
5 past. I objected to our -- us having them.
6 They weren't the electronic billboards, but we
7 found they weren't effective, and we don't have
8 them and we haven't had them for probably a
9 year and a half to two years.
10 MR. REDMAN: These 40 signers on the
11 petition, are these business owners or --
12 MS. GOLLER: Some of them are. Some of
13 them aren't. They're people all across the
14 board.
15 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
16 MS. GOLLER: And I'm not against companies
17 having signs. I'm just against ones that
18 change more than every three minutes.
19 MR. REDMAN: Thank you.
20 MS. GOLLER: Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Goller.
22 Our next speaker is Chuck Mann.
23 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Chuck Mann.
25 I live at 1086 Ingleside.
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1 I represent, presently, the Southwest
2 CPAC, and we will have another speaker on next
3 in that regard. I also belong to the Murray
4 Hill Preservation Association.
5 To be quite frank with you, I've listened
6 to these mayoral candidates talk off and on all
7 week, all month, and I'm quite concerned that
8 you're going against what they have proposed.
9 They were asked directly whether they support
10 this bill. In detail they were asked, and they
11 were also asked by me personally, and none of
12 them support this bill. So why don't you just
13 delay this until we get an election behind us
14 and we'll move on?
15 With that said, I'd like to know how many
16 of you would like to have a sign in your area
17 because I want to get your names right now and
18 make sure that if this passes, you get one.
19 Mr. Brown?
20 MR. D. BROWN: What's the question?
21 MR. MANN: Do you want a sign in your
22 area?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mann, we're here to
24 hear from you tonight, so --
25 MR. MANN: Well, I'm just trying --
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand.
2 MR. MANN: -- trying to find out where we
3 are because I understand this safety committee
4 passed this this afternoon. Obviously, they
5 haven't heard some of the facts that we've
6 heard in the CPACs and some of the detail that
7 we know.
8 Mr. Redman, I'd like to comment about your
9 participation in this. You at least had the
10 wherewithal to go out and look, and that's
11 good. I'm glad you're not reup [sic], too.
12 Anyhow, with this -- all these mayoral
13 candidates against this -- and I'll do -- I
14 will admit that Mullaney danced around the bush
15 a little bit before he answered.
16 I really think that we should have -- take
17 this opportunity -- you have an opportunity
18 here to make this into something that the
19 Planning Commission suggested. I, myself, am
20 very interested in having this amended as they
21 recommended. I also would like to have digital
22 billboards eliminated from the repertoire
23 because I have a TV at home and I don't want to
24 see one down the road.
25 What you really need to ask yourself, in
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1 my view, is, are you really willing to put your
2 life in danger, your family's life, friends?
3 It's bad enough you don't know whether you're
4 driving behind a drunk, et cetera, et cetera,
5 et cetera, telephone, whatever. Add one more
6 thing, these digital flashing signs to the
7 repertoire, and you're going to kill some
8 people. I may not have the statistics on hand
9 right now, but I'm sure I can find them between
10 Orlando and Las Vegas and the places where
11 these trashy things are put up. There's plenty
12 of that, and I don't want us to be the guinea
13 pigs to supply more data.
14 Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Mann.
16 Questions?
17 Councilman Reggie Brown, followed by
18 Mr. Redman.
19 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair to
20 Mr. Mann.
21 MR. MANN: Yes, sir.
22 MR. R. BROWN: I personally -- and I want
23 to ask you this question because I went through
24 several communities, and what I've noticed is
25 an increase of churches -- these are people of
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1 supposedly good faith -- and schools,
2 restaurants, that are all moving in the
3 direction that technology is taking us in. And
4 I'm hearing you say that basically all those
5 folks, you know, are wrong.
6 MR. MANN: No. No, no. Excuse me.
7 First of all, you have to assume that
8 technology is taking us where this bill says
9 we're supposed to go. I challenge that premise
10 to begin with.
11 The churches and various people are very
12 conscious about what they do, most of them. I
13 know the one on Roosevelt, et cetera, all these
14 people.
15 The thing that we're objecting to is the
16 time and the flashing and the 600-square-foot
17 billboards. I think you ought to put this in
18 this bill right now so that it can be discussed
19 with the full council.
20 I don't have any problem with a business
21 trying to make -- do what they need to do, but
22 all these -- a lot of these people have come up
23 here I've talked to -- and, of course, I've
24 been around the community quite a while and I
25 even had a business of my own. Changing every
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1 eight seconds is, you know, perfectly adequate.
2 It's been proven. I mean, it worked for me.
3 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. And then you
4 mentioned quite a few things, through the
5 Chair. My understanding -- and, Mr. Reingold,
6 you can correct me -- that the only purpose
7 we're here today is talking about the changing
8 message sign.
9 MR. MANN: Right.
10 MR. R. BROWN: Nothing more than that.
11 Okay?
12 MR. MANN: Changing message sign.
13 MR. R. BROWN: And in this discussion,
14 we're talking about the difference between
15 eight seconds and the recommended three
16 minutes --
17 MR. MANN: Yeah, three minutes.
18 MR. R. BROWN: -- is that your
19 understanding.
20 MR. MANN: Yeah. I'm -- I'm trying to get
21 you folks to change this to say three minutes.
22 I'm trying to get you to stop the flashing, and
23 I would like you to say that we're not going to
24 have 600-square-foot flashing billboards, TV on
25 a pole, and add that to this legislation.
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1 MR. R. BROWN: And through the Chair to
2 Legal, I think -- and even to the Chair --
3 this -- because we are -- some of the speakers
4 were talking about several implications here
5 that has nothing to do with the bill, which --
6 MR. MANN: Wait a minute.
7 MR. R. BROWN: Let me finish.
8 MR. MANN: Everything I've said hasn't to
9 do --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mann --
11 MR. R. BROWN: Right, if I can just
12 finish.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Make this a question.
14 MR. R. BROWN: I will.
15 So I just want to make sure that we
16 understand -- this is for the record -- that --
17 the only thing that we should be concerned
18 about tonight as a voting body is the changing
19 message sign dealing with the eight seconds and
20 the recommended three minutes --
21 MR. MANN: And the flashing.
22 MR. R. BROWN: -- And that's through
23 Legal.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, Mr. Brown, that's
25 what's before the Committee, but -- I mean, any
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1 council -- any committee member can make an
2 amendment --
3 MR. R. BROWN: Okay.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: -- to the bill that could
5 address a variety of subjects, including maybe
6 some suggestions that came forth from the
7 podium --
8 MR. R. BROWN: Right.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: -- from either side.
10 MR. R. BROWN: Right. I understand that,
11 Mr. Chairman, but at this point we have not had
12 any amendments or -- made at this time.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: We're not in the posture to
14 take amendments.
15 MR. R. BROWN: Okay.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: We're in public hearing at
17 the moment.
18 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. And so since we're
19 not at that posture -- and this is what
20 Mr. Mann is talking about, and we heard from
21 both sides, and I'll ask the question again,
22 Mr. Mann. Eight seconds, in your opinion,
23 appears to be very fast and it distracts --
24 MR. MANN: I would like it changed to
25 three minutes.
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1 MR. R. BROWN: Right. Three minutes.
2 MR. MANN: I would make myself perfectly
3 clear.
4 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. And so my question,
5 then; three minutes, would you recommend that
6 someone pull over to the side or sit at a
7 traffic light to read the sign for three
8 minutes?
9 MR. MANN: Whatever it takes. What do
10 they do when they're talking on the phone? The
11 recommendation is not to kill yourself --
12 MR. R. BROWN: But that's not what we're
13 talking about, sir.
14 MR. MANN: -- to pull over -- same
15 difference.
16 MR. R. BROWN: No, it's not what we're
17 talking about.
18 MR. MANN: If you're glancing at a sign --
19 MR. R. BROWN: Thank you, sir. I
20 appreciate it.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
23 Mr. Redman.
24 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair to
25 Mr. Mann, you said you did have a business.
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1 Now, I assume that you realize the importance
2 of having signage for a business to -- so that
3 you can do some business. Now, did your
4 business have signage?
5 MR. MANN: It did.
6 MR. REDMAN: Okay. And I'm sure that was
7 a very important part of attracting people to
8 your business, right?
9 MR. MANN: To be frank with you, it's not
10 as important as I thought it was when I spent
11 the money to put it up, but it was effective.
12 MR. REDMAN: Okay. And it seems that the
13 problem of accidents or the danger is -- was
14 y'all's main concern as you were discussing
15 this at CPAC, and did you y'all come up with
16 any situations or accidents that were caused by
17 this?
18 MR. MANN: I have -- I have no accident
19 data, but I don't want to be part of an
20 experiment, either.
21 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
23 Any other questions for Mr. Mann?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Mann.
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1 MR. MANN: Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Next speaker is Mark
3 Stewart.
4 MR. BRINTON: Mr. Stewart left and left me
5 a letter to be put in the record.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Brinton, you're
7 the next speaker.
8 (Mr. Brinton approaches the podium.)
9 MR. BRINTON: Bill Brinton, 1835 Challen
10 Avenue.
11 I had materials delivered, I know, to some
12 of the council members at an earlier meeting
13 and the balance to the council members here
14 today.
15 I'm going to try to restrict my comments
16 to just -- I'll be brief on two things and a
17 little bit lengthier on a third.
18 I know Mr. Sanders, at an earlier meeting
19 today, mentioned NFL cities allowing digital
20 billboards and he talked about Indianapolis.
21 Indianapolis does not allow digital billboards.
22 The city of St. Louis, within the last two
23 months, passed an ordinance prohibiting digital
24 billboards. The city of Houston, an NFL city,
25 does not allow digital billboards.
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1 I just wanted -- Orchard Park, New York,
2 one of the south towns of Buffalo, a former
3 client of mine, I defended them in litigation
4 for years and years in a billboard fight. They
5 have no billboards and they do not allow
6 digital billboards as an NFL town.
7 I just wanted to clear that up because
8 of -- because of the references to Indianapolis
9 and NFL cities at an earlier meeting today.
10 Scrolling message signs, I would
11 recommend -- I know Mr. Redman has seen
12 scrolling message signs in the southern part of
13 Duval County, as it's about to transit into
14 Clay County, and I don't think anybody would
15 say those types of scrolling message signs are
16 what we want to have along our roadways. That
17 is a problem.
18 My office has done a survey of 153 cities
19 across the state of Florida, 152 prohibit
20 scrolling message signs, one allows it. If you
21 include Jacksonville, it will be two.
22 The Planning Commission, and I believe all
23 six CPACs, have recommended that scrolling
24 message signs be prohibited in our code for
25 obvious safety reasons.
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1 Here we're not talking about every eight
2 seconds or every fifteen seconds. We're
3 talking about a continuous scroll of where
4 you're looking -- you're being asked to look,
5 as you're driving, at a message that may last
6 five seconds, ten seconds, twelve seconds, but
7 to read it, you have to look at it
8 continuously. It is a flat-out danger.
9 You know my position about digital
10 billboards and why we should prohibit them.
11 You have a lot of literature on that.
12 My remaining point -- and I want to get
13 right to the heart of the three minutes. I
14 passed out, and y'all should have it, which I
15 think is a classic example, it's Normandy and
16 Lane Avenue. There are three signs there, an
17 off-site sign and two on-premise signs. I
18 really hope you take a close look at this
19 because if these were all changing at every
20 eight seconds -- and, of course, they're not
21 going to be coordinated, but this is just one
22 small part of Normandy Boulevard. If every
23 sign along there is changing at eight seconds,
24 can you imagine the safety impact? I mean,
25 there is an obviously aesthetic impact.
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1 There's a safety impact, too.
2 I've sat in a parking lot -- and I've also
3 sat in the parking lot at the bank. I've sat
4 in the parking lot of CVS, and they had eight
5 different messages on three-minute intervals
6 where people can see those signs, but if it
7 were eight-second intervals and you're driving
8 at 45 miles per hour, I don't think you're
9 going to be able to see hardly any of those
10 messages. CVS is doing it responsibly.
11 They're doing it like many communities
12 throughout this nation.
13 And just very quickly -- do I have any
14 time left or --
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Your time is up.
16 I have a question from Mr. Redman.
17 Mr. Redman.
18 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair.
19 Mr. Brinton --
20 MR. BRINTON: Yes.
21 MR. REDMAN: -- and I want to thank you.
22 Mr. Brinton took me around and -- for a
23 couple of hours, I believe it was, and we --
24 MR. BRINTON: Two.
25 MR. REDMAN: -- two hours, and we toured a
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1 lot of Duval County and then a bit of Clay
2 County, and I saw a lot of signs, but -- and he
3 and I have a different opinion, but the issue
4 is not about billboards the way I understand
5 this bill; is that correct? This is strictly
6 the timing of the changing of the message?
7 MR. BRINTON: Mr. Redman, I would tell you
8 that the reason Clear Channel's lobbyists sent
9 the language over to a council member's aide is
10 because they have an interest in operating
11 billboards as digital billboards in this
12 market. It's the difference between on-site
13 signs and off-site signs, and you can regulate
14 the two differently. And so the reason you
15 have had Clear Channel executives travel here
16 from out of town and you have four paid
17 lobbyists working the issue is because it's
18 important to the off-site sign industry, the
19 billboard industry, to have this legislation
20 passed.
21 You have heard of owners of businesses
22 on-site that are concerned about this in
23 connection with their businesses and how they
24 operate and the local sign companies that sell
25 signs to people that have businesses that are
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1 on-site signs, but this legislation affects
2 both. It sets the rules for not only
3 on-premise signs but also for off-premise
4 signs.
5 MR. REDMAN: But it does not mention
6 billboards. It strictly mentions the timing of
7 the changing of the message on whatever kind of
8 sign it might be.
9 MR. BRINTON: On-site or off-site, that's
10 the -- the problem in Jacksonville is --
11 billboards are prohibited, new billboards are
12 prohibited. There is -- there are 12
13 settlement agreements that allow certain things
14 to happen under certain conditions, but those
15 settlement agreements do not prohibit the City
16 from passing laws dealing with lighting or
17 illumination.
18 If we had the three-minute clarification
19 back in October, you know, when it was before
20 this body and it got stripped out of the bill
21 on -- I think it was, like, October the 22nd or
22 23rd, about eight days before eight building
23 permit applications came in for digital
24 billboards -- if that was clarified at three
25 minutes, then Clear Channel, in erecting --
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1 this is my position as a lawyer -- in erecting
2 billboards in this market would be limited to
3 having those 672-square-foot billboards change
4 only once every three minutes, assuming they
5 could do it under the settlement agreement,
6 which my position is they can't. But if they
7 could, arguably the dwell time would be three
8 minutes, not as proposed, eight seconds.
9 Pinellas County is a client that I
10 represent. Mr. Musica, who is here in the
11 audience tonight, represents Clear Channel not
12 as a lawyer, but he's internally with Clear
13 Channel, and Pinellas County is grappling with
14 a one-minute rule that applies in Clear Channel
15 today -- to Clear Channel today in that county,
16 and they're talking about what you're going to
17 trade to get digital billboards operating at
18 every 15 seconds as opposed to every
19 60 seconds.
20 So this -- this language in this bill is
21 applicable to both on-site signs and off-site
22 signs, and you need to understand that.
23 MR. REDMAN: But from what you've told me
24 about billboards -- now, these billboards, they
25 have an agreement that over a period of time
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1 they'll all be gone; is that not correct, and
2 that, you know, they're phasing out one-by-one
3 or dozens-by-dozens, so there's less now --
4 there's less now than there was a year ago?
5 MR. BRINTON: There are less every year.
6 All billboards will not be gone in the
7 county. They have a right to -- and here's the
8 rub of what the legal dispute is. They have
9 the right to rebuild and relocate existing sign
10 faces to other locations. The position of one
11 side to that agreement is that doesn't allow
12 you -- relocating an existing sign face doesn't
13 allow you to erect a digital billboard. It
14 doesn't allow you to take down a billboard on
15 San Jose at Kori Road and then re-erect it with
16 two eight-ton digital sign faces worth a
17 half-million dollars. That's not what the
18 settlement agreement provides.
19 Mr. Sanders has a legal position that is
20 absolutely 180 degrees from my legal position,
21 and that's going to have to get worked out
22 probably in a court of law. However, the City
23 does not -- is not prohibited from passing
24 legislation, and the legislation you're dealing
25 with will have an effect on both -- on all
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1 signs; off-premise or on-premise.
2 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brinton.
3 MR. BRINTON: Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brinton.
5 Mr. Brinton, could language be added to
6 this legislation that would differentiate the
7 two --
8 MR. BRINTON: Yes.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: -- off-site and on-site?
10 MR. BRINTON: I believe it could.
11 You'll have to -- obviously, I always tell
12 a client to rely upon the advice of their
13 lawyers, but I believe it could, but
14 Mr. Reingold would need to respond to you on
15 that.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
17 MR. REINGOLD: Our office has taken the
18 position -- Mr. Brinton is correct on that
19 issue -- that you could have a different -- you
20 could have differences between off-site and
21 on-site signs.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
23 And, Mr. Brinton, did I understand you to
24 say that Orchard Park has no billboards at all?
25 MR. BRINTON: No billboards.
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1 They were sued by Lamar Advertising to put
2 88 billboards in the town of Orchard Park. And
3 that was in a suit filed in 2001, resolved in
4 around 2008, and that's the way it is today; no
5 billboards, no digital billboards.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
7 Mr. Reggie Brown.
8 MR. R. BROWN: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman.
9 In fact, you led into the question that I was
10 going to ask about the impact of on-site and
11 off-site signs, which is fine, which -- I guess
12 that answers my question.
13 So once we get to the -- to that point, if
14 we need to make an amendment -- because I -- I
15 want to make sure that -- and my biggest thing
16 is that we do everything within the law that's
17 going to protect the citizens of Jacksonville.
18 But, Mr. Brinton, you mentioned -- you
19 used CVS as an example --
20 MR. BRINTON: Yes.
21 MR. R. BROWN: -- of an organization or a
22 company that's demonstrating safety in terms of
23 advertising, and they used -- my understanding
24 is that -- three-minute interval for each
25 advertisement?
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1 MR. BRINTON: That's correct.
2 And I would say safety and at some point
3 common sense because -- and I'm not sure all
4 the speakers understand this. You know, the
5 three minutes -- there are -- there are
6 electronic signs galore at the beaches and in
7 St. Johns County operating at intervals of
8 hours. The proposal from the Planning
9 Commission was three minutes, but some of the
10 discussions have been -- and they haven't come
11 out and talked about message sequencing, but
12 message sequencing is when you have a message
13 that says something which is obviously
14 incomplete because there's something else to
15 follow, which means -- let's say it's eight
16 seconds. It means you've got to be looking at
17 that during that eight-second interval and then
18 wait for it to change to another period of
19 time.
20 That is -- if I had a client that was
21 doing that, I would say "cut it out" because if
22 there's an accident where a P.I. lawyer is
23 going to say it's the fault of that sign, you
24 know, you're going to have a problem.
25 And 103rd Street, which is like the worst
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1 example to give as a location, dealing with
2 safety, is -- there have been five pedestrian
3 deaths in less than -- less than the last
4 24 months there have been five pedestrian
5 deaths on 103rd Street in a two-mile stretch,
6 which is commercial on both sides, which takes
7 into [sic] where the savings and loan or the
8 bank has their office.
9 Now, is it the fault of a flashing or
10 changing message sign? Maybe not, but when you
11 have five pedestrian deaths along a two-mile
12 stretch of roadway, there is a -- and you can't
13 interview the pedestrian; they're deceased.
14 And the drivers may not, like, admit that, Oh,
15 I was -- I was looking at this or that over
16 there, but something is going on on that
17 commercial stretch. If you drive it, as I
18 have, it's dangerous. And when you add more
19 distractions to that roadway, it's more
20 dangerous.
21 But we should not be doing message
22 sequencing certainly in school zones. I mean,
23 doing a message sequencing in a school zone
24 would not make any sense. It would be the last
25 thing that a school or a school board would
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1 want to approve.
2 The example dealing with the lines of
3 text -- and the pictures that I took at CVS
4 shows three lines of text and some -- like two
5 columns where you could have, hypothetically,
6 "Car loan, 5" -- you know, "3%, 18-month term."
7 You could work it all in there. I've seen the
8 sign on 103rd Street. That's easily all worked
9 in there. It's just a question of how you want
10 to operate it.
11 But, you know, nobody should be operating
12 this as message sequencing, which I've heard
13 tonight several times, and it's -- it's
14 dangerous and it's not the way to operate a
15 sign.
16 Most cities go either hours, minutes or
17 seconds, in the state of Florida, that allow
18 them to. Seventy-five percent of the cities
19 don't allow electronic message signs. We're
20 one of -- we're part of the 25 percent of the
21 cities that do. And so the choice is, where do
22 you want to put the timeline? Do you want to
23 do like the beaches do at 24 hours or St. Johns
24 County at two hours or do you want to do what
25 we've always been doing is minutes or do you
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1 want to move it to terms of seconds?
2 I have to tell you -- because this is my
3 practice. This is -- I do this around the
4 country. I draw up sign ordinances and I
5 consider all sorts of things. The reasonable
6 middle ground is in minutes. Lynette Self drew
7 [sic] an ordinance a number of years ago. I
8 sat on a committee for two years, and she came
9 up with one minute. When it came to the
10 council, it was pulled, a one-minute dwell
11 time.
12 Most minutes -- things are in minutes are
13 at one minute. I would certainly prefer it to
14 be a longer period of time, but that -- that's
15 where the -- that's where the range is. That's
16 where the range is.
17 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. My last question.
18 Mr. Brinton, you talked about safety on
19 103rd, and I frequent 103rd and I can tell you
20 that a lot of the pedestrians do not use the
21 designated crosswalks throughout. And I'm not
22 trying to remiss what you're saying -- or
23 dismiss what you're saying. However, I think
24 that there's probably multiple factors as to
25 the cause of accidents, and what I'm hearing --
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1 unless you have some other information --
2 MR. BRINTON: I want to say you're exactly
3 right. It is multiple -- usually an accident
4 like that is not due to one thing or two
5 things. It's usually due to three or more.
6 That's what the traffic -- safety experts and
7 human factors engineers will tell you, and so
8 you're -- there are all these things out there
9 in the environment. There are things that can
10 distract pedestrians, too. So it's a multiple.
11 You can't sometimes put it "it's just this one
12 thing." It's a combination of things.
13 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
15 Any other questions?
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brinton.
18 MR. BRINTON: Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Our next speaker is Douglas
20 Vanderlaan.
21 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hello. I'm Douglas
23 Vanderlaan. My address is 1453 North Market
24 Street.
25 I'm the Chair of the Urban Core CPAC, and
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1 I'm here tonight to tell you that we, at the
2 Urban Core CPAC, approved a motion opposing the
3 ordinance in its current form. We would
4 support the amendments to ban scrolling
5 messages and to change the time from eight
6 seconds to three minutes. We also would
7 support an amendment to prohibit digital
8 billboard faces.
9 Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
11 Any questions?
12 Mr. Reggie Brown.
13 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair,
14 sir, at your meeting, did you have
15 representation from both sides to explain to
16 the constituents the pros and cons on both
17 sides?
18 MR. VANDERLAAN: We did. We had --
19 Mr. Sanders from Clear Channel came and gave a
20 presentation, and Mr. Arpen and Mr. Brinton
21 came and gave an opposing presentation.
22 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
24 Mr. Redman.
25 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair, what were
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1 the deciding factors that convinced you to
2 oppose the eight-second rule?
3 MR. VANDERLAAN: Well, I can't speak for
4 each member of the -- our CPAC committee, but I
5 can tell you that there was discussion
6 relating -- and I think, obviously, concern
7 about safety was probably our primary concern;
8 traffic safety, and sort of the common-sense
9 thinking that anything that distracts a driver
10 from the road is a traffic hazard.
11 MR. REDMAN: Did anybody in the
12 congregation know of any incidents that were
13 caused by flashing lights?
14 MR. VANDERLAAN: The question of specific
15 incidences did not come up, so I'm -- not that
16 I'm aware of.
17 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
19 Mr. Reggie Brown for the second time.
20 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair,
21 why did you choose Clear Channel instead of a
22 business owner that presently have those signs
23 or a sign-maker -- well, Clear Channel is a
24 sign-maker -- or one that builds those
25 electronic -- those electronic signs?
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1 MR. VANDERLAAN: I can't tell you exactly
2 how we came to have the specific individuals
3 that came and spoke at our meeting. It seemed
4 to me that Clear Channel certainly has a stake
5 in this and probably could present that case
6 very well. And I think Mr. Sanders did do a
7 good job of explaining that case and we just
8 disagreed.
9 If there had been any business owners
10 there that wanted to speak on one side or the
11 other of the issue, as Chair I certainly would
12 have been happy to allow them to speak.
13 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Was that a noticed
14 meeting? When I say that, that you were going
15 to talk about that particular subject --
16 MR. VANDERLAAN: Yes.
17 MR. R. BROWN: -- that night? Okay.
18 MR. VANDERLAAN: Yes.
19 MR. R. BROWN: Thank you, sir.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
23 Mr. Vanderlaan.
24 MR. VANDERLAAN: Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Appreciate you being here.
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1 Richard Sapp, followed by Lad Hawkins.
2 Lad, if you'll make your way forward,
3 please.
4 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening, Committee.
6 My name is Richard Sapp; that's Sapp with
7 two Ps. And I live at 923 Melba Street. This
8 is in Murray Hill.
9 I'm on the board in the Murray Hill
10 Preservation Association, and we're one of the
11 representatives to the Northwest CPAC.
12 I'm going to limit to my comments. I
13 think there's -- some excellent points have
14 been brought up, particularly on the opposition
15 to this, and mine is aesthetics to begin with,
16 a little bit on safety.
17 You know, quality of life, I think in the
18 overall mix, we want to go ahead and achieve
19 that.
20 Now, I just mentioned at the CPAC
21 meeting that I went to Vegas a couple of weeks
22 ago, and this is for a convention. And, you
23 know, I've been through the war. I've done it
24 all, right? But I'll tell you, if you want a
25 shock for your visual observation, go to
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1 Las Vegas. And the great thing about Las
2 Vegas, if you're not gambling, is getting out
3 of there, and that's what I did.
4 But I'm really serious about this, and I
5 think, as it was quoted, that one jurisdiction
6 at least in this country has outlawed signs all
7 the way.
8 You know, when I watch TV, I have the mute
9 button. And when those obnoxious car salesmen
10 come on there, I mute them. At least I can
11 restrict it. But when I go out in this city as
12 a citizen, I can't restrict it unless we come
13 here and try to get some sensibility in terms
14 of what is our quality of life.
15 Number two. On the -- and I'll address
16 Councilman Redman and perhaps a few other
17 councilmen here. You know, on safety -- I was
18 at one time, in a previous life, a claims
19 adjustor for a major company, and I tell you --
20 and there's a police officer over here -- I
21 dare say it's very limited, the number of
22 people [sic] say, "Officer, I was looking at
23 this sign and I didn't see the person."
24 You know, people, when it gets down to
25 that insurance rate, they want to go ahead and
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1 reduce their exposure, and that's not something
2 people commonly do, I'm sorry. So it's just a
3 small point because it keeps coming up; do you
4 have an accident to prove this.
5 So let me go ahead and rest my case more
6 on the aesthetics, it hasn't been brought up,
7 and I think we want to create an atmosphere
8 that we can relate to as a community that's
9 inspiring and uplifting. If you want to go
10 down these highways and see these signs, you go
11 back and you need to go ahead and refresh your
12 spirit, and that's my major thing I want to
13 offer this evening.
14 Thank you very much.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
16 Any questions?
17 We do have one question.
18 Mr. Redman.
19 Mr. Sapp, Mr. Redman has a question.
20 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair, Mr. Sapp,
21 you say that you don't like signs in general.
22 MR. SAPP: I had a --
23 MR. REDMAN: Do you have a business?
24 MR. SAPP: I've had a business and I've
25 had -- over many years -- and I understand the
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1 need to advertise. But I'm going tell you, we
2 talk about modern technology. Do you know
3 what -- going online comparing interest rates
4 for banks? It's at the touch of your finger.
5 We talk that we've got to use technology for a
6 purpose that I disagree with. Digital flash?
7 There's technology to do things that are
8 sensible. When you talk about technology that
9 is the great thing that we need to bow down to,
10 look at the computer. Do you know -- and I
11 deal, as assistant pastor, with the problem of
12 pornography. Do you know what's in that
13 computer, that technology? Technology has a
14 negative aspect, and here's a good case when
15 you talk about flashing signs. So that's my
16 contention.
17 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
19 Mr. Redman. Thank you, Mr. Sapp.
20 Next speaker is Lad Hawkins, followed by
21 Leroy Kelly.
22 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
24 Lad Hawkins, 1924 Holly Oaks Lake Road
25 West.
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1 I've worked as a planner here in
2 Jacksonville for 40 years, and most of you know
3 me as a community grass-roots activist
4 probably. I was involved in the Capsigns
5 ordinance that went to the voters and was
6 passed. I was involved in the tree ordinance,
7 which we took to the voters and got passed.
8 And these were all things that were things that
9 made Jacksonville a better city. And I'm on
10 the CPAC and I'm the president of the Greater
11 Arlington Civic Council. Both of those
12 organizations have passed the same resolution
13 that all six of the CPACs have passed.
14 Arlington Beaches passed theirs last night, so
15 I don't know if you've got it in your file yet,
16 but it's identical to the other ones except it
17 says Arlington Beaches. So all of them have
18 passed the same resolution.
19 You need to listen to the people. These
20 are your constituents. These are the people
21 who put you here. This is not good for the
22 people of Jacksonville. This isn't good for
23 businesses. Nonprofits don't have any money.
24 They're all poor. They can't spend $20,000 for
25 a sign. They're going to be competing with all
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1 these other people who can afford them, and
2 you're going to run them out of business and
3 make them not be seen. This is not good for
4 the people.
5 Of all these CPACs -- there's six CPACs --
6 they were -- every one was unanimous except for
7 one of them had one person who voted in favor
8 of this ordinance. Now, does that tell you
9 something?
10 Vote no on this, and we -- we strongly
11 encourage you to adopt what has been asked for
12 here; no scrolling signs, go from eight seconds
13 to three minutes, and get rid of digital
14 billboards. If you would put that in your
15 ordinance and pass it, you would make the
16 people happy and you would solve a problem that
17 has been created in this city because there's
18 confusion.
19 Thank you very much.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins.
21 Question from Mr. Redman.
22 Mr. Hawkins, will you return to the
23 podium, please?
24 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair to
25 Mr. Hawkins, do you not think that this would
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1 hurt some of the businesses that have these
2 signs at this point in time if they were
3 restricted, and do you have a business that you
4 use advertising with?
5 MR. HAWKINS: I have a business that
6 doesn't depend on advertising.
7 And I really don't have a good feel for
8 what it might or might not do, but my opinion
9 is that we need to have a very clear law of
10 what is the rules and enforce it. You know,
11 right now it's muddy and we need to -- we need
12 to fix that. And I think common sense tells
13 you -- and listen to your people -- every
14 CPAC -- that's Citizen Planning Advisory --
15 their advice to you is no. You know, listen to
16 them.
17 MR. REDMAN: Well, I've talked to the
18 public out here and I get different opinions
19 from them, majority of them.
20 And you said nonprofits do not -- cannot
21 afford this. Salvation Army has one out on
22 Beach Boulevard that does this, and a lot of
23 your smaller churches do, too.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
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1 Mr. Kelly, followed by Rachel Cocciolo.
2 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Leroy C.
4 Kelly. I reside at 8443 Finch Avenue.
5 I'm president of the district -- Northwest
6 District 5 Citizens Planning and Advisory
7 Committee.
8 District 5 had the opportunity of
9 receiving information from both parties; those
10 who were in favor of the ordinance and those
11 who were opposed to it. And after having
12 received the information and being in a
13 position to inquire from each party -- well, we
14 only had one party present. Another one sent
15 us a letter explaining their position why we
16 should support -- the committee unanimously
17 supported the concept of opposing Ordinance
18 2010-900 as it is -- as it is presently
19 written. However, they supported the
20 recommendations that calls for the prohibit
21 [sic] of scrolling signs and accepted time --
22 hold time for changing message; hold as three
23 minutes rather than eight seconds. The
24 committee felt that it was -- that was the best
25 way to go. They felt that three minutes would
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1 allow an opportunity for an individual -- for
2 organizations and -- to get their full message
3 out and, likewise, allow the -- the pedestrians
4 an opportunity to receive the amount of inform
5 [sic] they needed.
6 Thank you.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
8 Any questions from the Committee?
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
11 Mr. Kelly.
12 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Cocciolo, followed by
14 Tracey Arpen.
15 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
16 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
17 My name is Rachel Cocciolo. I reside at
18 9727 Touchton Road, Apartment 1014.
19 I am here to oppose this ordinance. I was
20 extremely disappointed to hear about the action
21 that the Public Health and Safety Committee
22 took this afternoon when it recommended
23 approval of Ordinance 2010-900. This flies in
24 the face of the recommendation of the Planning
25 Commission, the resolutions of the six CPACs,
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1 and opposition by the Greater Arlington Civic
2 Council, the Mandarin Community Club, the City
3 Beautiful Coalition, the San Marco Preservation
4 Society, Springfield Preservation and
5 Revitalization, the Murray Hill Preservation
6 Association, and the Sierra Club, not to
7 mention the opposition from countless
8 unaffiliated citizens like myself. And I
9 reside in your district. I am your public.
10 Instead of considering the will of its
11 constituency, the Committee opted to acquiesce
12 to the pressure intensely applied by sign
13 industry lobbyists. It's very upsetting that
14 the Committee actually did, it appears, the
15 opposite of what it is charged to do, which is
16 presumably to protect the public health and
17 safety. And, contrary to the message sent out
18 by PH&S, bowing to the special interests of the
19 sign industry, is not in line with that goal.
20 All this rhetoric about small business and
21 nonprofits is extremely frustrating and I'm
22 tired of it. Honestly, how naive do you think
23 we are? This ordinance is not about small
24 businesses and nonprofits, which is the reason,
25 number one, that it originated with the
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1 lobbyists working for Clear Channel. Number
2 two, that Clear Channel's attorney and Clear
3 Channel employees attend nearly every meeting
4 where it's discussed; that the president of the
5 Florida Outdoor Advertising Association, who
6 lives in Winter Park, by the way, where these
7 signs are not allowed, has come before you to
8 discuss it; that a Daktronics representative,
9 who lives in Tallahassee, where the required
10 dwell time is three minutes, has come before
11 you to speak about it; that Kenneth Peskin, who
12 lives and works in Alexandria and Arlington,
13 Virginia, both of which prohibit these signs,
14 has come before you on behalf of the
15 International Sign Association, which, by the
16 way, used to be known as the National Electric
17 Sign Association; that Lou Musica, a Clear
18 Channel representative who lives in Orlando,
19 where these signs are prohibited, period, has
20 come to Jacksonville to speak to you about it;
21 that lobbyists like Jim Catlett and Deno Hicks
22 come to see you in your offices; and that sign
23 owners come to discuss this ordinance -- I
24 mean, sign -- sign industry owners; and that
25 the initial draft of the proposed ordinance was
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1 prepared almost simultaneously with --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Cocciolo, let me
3 interrupt for a second.
4 Hold the time.
5 Are you reading from something?
6 MS. COCCIOLO: Yes, something that I
7 prepared.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that -- we're going to
9 need to get a copy of that because our court
10 reporter is -- she's quick, but she's not quite
11 that quick. Did you used to do a Federal
12 Express commercial, by any chance?
13 MS. COCCIOLO: No. I'm trying to get a
14 lot in.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. I understand, but if
16 you could leave that copy for her --
17 MS. COCCIOLO: I will leave it with her,
18 happily.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: -- because she's going to
20 need to -- all right.
21 Thank you.
22 MS. COCCIOLO: Okay. And I was going to
23 say that the initial draft of the proposed
24 ordinance was prepared almost simultaneously
25 with Clear Channel's application to erect more
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1 than a dozen digital billboard faces within a
2 city that has voted to prohibit new billboards.
3 While much of the support for this
4 ordinance is coming from financially-interested
5 and often non-local parties, all of the
6 opposition to this ordinance is coming from the
7 citizenry. However, it is perfectly obvious
8 that the members of certain committees listen
9 best to lobbyists paid for by the sign industry
10 as opposed to the unpaid citizens who have
11 taken the time to express their legitimate
12 concerns with this ordinance.
13 All I feel is disgust, and I hope that
14 this committee will not add to it tonight.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Cocciolo.
16 Questions from the Committee?
17 Mr. Redman.
18 And Ms. Cocciolo, you can answer --
19 MS. COCCIOLO: Slowly, now I can.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
21 Thank you.
22 MR. REDMAN: All right. Through the
23 Chair, Ms. Cocciolo -- Cocci- --
24 MS. COCCIOLO: That's close enough.
25 MR. REDMAN: Yeah.
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1 I mean, you mentioned a lot of names and
2 talked about a lot of people, but what is your
3 main concern against these digital signs --
4 MS. COCCIOLO: My --
5 MR. REDMAN: -- and the time -- the
6 difference between eight seconds and three
7 minutes?
8 MS. COCCIOLO: Well, my main concern is
9 that I believe three minutes is very liberal
10 and that it is business-friendly.
11 You heard Mr. Brinton say that his office
12 had conducted a survey of 152 municipalities.
13 It was actually me, and I conducted a survey of
14 195. And of those, I believe it was 38 that
15 allowed these signs, period; that even allow
16 them. So -- I mean, that tells you how many
17 people just don't allow them. And then those
18 that do allow them, the dwell times range
19 anywhere from 24 hours to -- down to two
20 seconds, yes, but the average of those dwell
21 times was two-and-a-half hours. So I believe
22 that three minutes is eminently reasonable. I
23 believe it can be done. It's done all over the
24 country, all over Florida.
25 My other concerns are safety and
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1 aesthetics. And I also object to legislation
2 like this being driven through our government
3 by lobbyists paid for by the sign industry.
4 MR. REDMAN: Okay. And you work for
5 Mr. Brinton, right?
6 MS. COCCIOLO: I do.
7 MR. REDMAN: Okay. And --
8 MS. COCCIOLO: But I'm here representing
9 myself.
10 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
11 All right. And do you know of any
12 accidents that may have occurred because of --
13 MS. COCCIOLO: Actually, I do, and I can
14 send to you an article. Actually, I believe I
15 have already e-mailed it to you in the past,
16 but I'll send it again.
17 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
18 All right. Thank you.
19 MS. COCCIOLO: You're welcome.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown; Reggie Brown.
21 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair,
22 could you please explain to me your concerns
23 about Clear Channel? I'd like to make sure I
24 clearly understand what your concerns are.
25 MS. COCCIOLO: My concerns about Clear
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1 Channel and other --
2 MR. R. BROWN: No, just Clear Channel.
3 MS. COCCIOLO: Okay. Well, they're
4 members of the sign industry, and I feel
5 that -- to base our sign regulations on what
6 members of -- to regulate the regulated based
7 on how they want to be regulated is basically
8 the same thing as not regulating them. You're
9 letting them do whatever they want, and that's
10 my concern.
11 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. And I'll try to
12 research that response.
13 The second question -- and Councilman
14 Redman, he touched on it -- the eight-second --
15 The reason we're here is to only discuss -- and
16 I keep saying this -- the changing message
17 sign, and I'm hearing now that it's going to
18 have some impact down the road on some other
19 areas.
20 The argument -- and then I'm going to
21 paraphrase this and then ask the question. The
22 argument is that it's going to impede traffic
23 or people will have to pull over if they're
24 going to really get the full benefit of a
25 three-minute sign. Your position on that.
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1 MS. COCCIOLO: I would ask you whether you
2 drive around stopping to read every sign that
3 you pass. I mean, that's not the way people
4 drive. They're going to pass -- I mean, in
5 terms of seconds anyway, so having a
6 three-minute sign -- I mean, they're only going
7 to be exposed to it for a certain amount of
8 time anyway. The problem is, when you consider
9 all of these signs changing every eight
10 seconds, that creates a distraction.
11 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. My last question,
12 then, is to Planning.
13 Do we have a restriction as to the
14 number -- like we do with billboards -- the
15 number of these flashing signs? Because I keep
16 hearing, you know, Vegas and other places that
17 may have signs. I personally don't think that
18 there is anything --
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, is your
20 question -- I'm sorry, what's your question?
21 MR. R. BROWN: My question is, do we have
22 a restricted number of --
23 THE CHAIRMAN: On-site signs?
24 MR. R. BROWN: -- electronic -- yes.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, is there -- is
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1 there any restriction on the number of on-site
2 signs?
3 MR. KELLY: The Part 13 sign criteria in
4 terms of the number is based on a street
5 frontage amount per parcel. So, typically,
6 it's one sign per parcel, based on -- in terms
7 of area, it would be based on the linear feet
8 of frontage up to a certain amount, maximum
9 sign. So if you had 300 feet of frontage, you
10 could have potentially up to a 300-square-foot
11 sign within that property.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, are you asking
13 per property or just --
14 MR. R. BROWN: Right.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: -- within the city?
16 MR. R. BROWN: Within the city and then on
17 the street.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Do we have any restrictions
19 on the number of signs on the --
20 MR. R. BROWN: On 103rd, how many --
21 MR. KELLY: Well, the signs are -- again,
22 I mean, it's a general -- there's sign
23 requirements and criteria that are restricted
24 by the type of sign in that zoning district.
25 For instance, these are not permitted in the
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1 CRO or CO. Residential zoning districts would
2 only be allowed for institutional uses through
3 a waiver. As it is now, the CCG-1 and CCG-2
4 and Commercial Neighborhood are the only
5 districts -- and the industrial, I apologize --
6 the industrial zoning districts that would
7 allow for that type of sign.
8 We do, obviously, have the sign area
9 requirements, sign setback requirements,
10 intersection visibility requirements, that all
11 apply to where the signs can be placed on the
12 property.
13 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Mr. Kelly, through
14 the Chair, make sure I understand, you say
15 CCG-1 and CCG-2, and these are typically our
16 older communities? These are not the newer
17 communities? Because -- am I understanding
18 that correctly?
19 MR. KELLY: I mean, there's CCG-1, CCG-2
20 entirely within the city. I mean, all over the
21 city. Primarily on your major corridors, your
22 Atlantic Boulevard, your Southside, your Beach
23 Boulevard, 103rd Street; those areas.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, maybe this will
25 help. I asked you -- or I'm not sure if I
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1 asked you. I think I asked Mr. Killingsworth,
2 but somebody -- I'm not sure. You may have
3 done the legwork on it. How many parcels -- I
4 asked you to identify how many parcels would be
5 affected by 2010-900, and you came up with a
6 number. Do you remember what the number was?
7 MR. KELLY: I think --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words, the
9 question would be, how many parcels could have
10 a digital sign in Duval County? Not -- and I
11 know we can't figure out how many signs per
12 parcel because we don't have the acreage, but
13 how many parcels --
14 MR. KELLY: Right.
15 The issue -- the issue with that, that
16 number -- and I think it was 17,000, something
17 like that --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Seventeen thousand parcels.
19 MR. KELLY: But let me -- let me put a
20 caveat on that because that included PUD
21 zonings and individual residential lots within
22 PUD zones, so I don't think it took --
23 THE CHAIRMAN: But some of the parcels,
24 like a big shopping center that had multiple --
25 MR. KELLY: Okay. Clearly, it's not
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1 17,000. I think --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: They could all have a
3 digital sign, correct, even though it was one
4 parcel? Wall sign.
5 MR. KELLY: Right now, there's no
6 prohibition against a wall sign being a
7 changing message.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: So one parcel, even though
9 it was a large parcel, could have more than one
10 sign?
11 MR. KELLY: Well, there's criteria,
12 correct.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand.
14 Mr. Kelly, I'm just asking a
15 straightforward question.
16 Thank you for your help.
17 Does that help, Mr. Brown?
18 MR. R. BROWN: Yes.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
20 MR. R. BROWN: Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any other
22 questions for -- Mr. Holt?
23 Mr. Bishop, you just dropped off. Did you
24 want to drop off?
25 MR. BISHOP: No questions.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Holt.
2 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: For Mr. Kelly. Okay.
4 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
5 Through the Chair to Mr. Kelly. Along the
6 same lines of what Mr. Brown was saying, does
7 the Planning Department sometimes require more
8 than one business; for example, in a strip
9 mall, to use the same electronic sign?
10 MR. KELLY: The -- within PUD developments
11 right now? Because, actually, if you had a
12 mall that had outparcels and other
13 parcelization within the overall scheme of the
14 mall, you can't have an off-site sign.
15 The only way an off-site sign -- through a
16 PUD and a master plan development, basically,
17 we allowed the shared signage, but individual
18 businesses, as part of that mall, would have to
19 have a stand-alone sign unless the whole mall
20 was singularly owned.
21 MR. HOLT: I can think of one right now
22 where the same electronic sign is used by two
23 separate businesses. It's over on Beach
24 Boulevard. Cuba Libre and there's a health
25 business, like a doc-in-a-box, they use the
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1 same sign, but my question is --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: The same structure or the
3 same sign?
4 MR. HOLT: Same sign.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Same sign.
6 MR. HOLT: It will put up a message for
7 the restaurant and then it will put up a
8 message for the medical business.
9 My question is, does the Planning
10 Department ever take advantage of that
11 situation and require that more than one
12 business use the same sign?
13 MR. KELLY: We do all the time with
14 Planned Unit Development zoning districts under
15 the existing Part 13 criteria. Shared signage
16 in a lot of cases would result in off-site
17 signage because one of those businesses would
18 not be located on the premises where the sign
19 is. So that's the dilemma that we have. We do
20 accommodate it through a PUD and encourage it,
21 in fact.
22 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop.
24 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 To Mr. Kelly, I'm just looking at a map
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1 here from -- approximately from University
2 Boulevard to St. Johns Bluff is about a
3 five-mile stretch. Virtually all of the
4 properties on both sides of that street are
5 either CCG-1 or CCG-2 encompassing literally
6 hundreds of parcels.
7 Am I correct that it is possible for every
8 single one of those CCG-1 and CCG-2 parcels to
9 have a digital sign?
10 MR. KELLY: They've been allowed -- since
11 1987, that's been the ability for any CCG-1 or
12 -2 zoning to have a changing message device.
13 MR. BISHOP: So the answer is yes?
14 MR. KELLY: Yes.
15 MR. BISHOP: Okay. So if this bill
16 passed, every one of those, potentially
17 hundreds of digital signs, could be changing at
18 eight seconds; is that correct?
19 MR. KELLY: Again, as --
20 MR. BISHOP: Yes or no?
21 MR. KELLY: If everybody applied for a
22 permit on those commercial parcels to -- yes.
23 MR. BISHOP: Thank you.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
25 Mr. Kelly, the bill that was approved in
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1 1987, that was under the premise of a
2 three-minute change, correct?
3 MR. KELLY: The language was that it
4 would -- obviously changes more than once every
5 three minutes. And so that's the issue,
6 obviously, from the Department's perspective
7 with the interpretation, that we can't legally
8 defend that.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: And Ms. Cocciolo, going
10 back to your comments about -- I forgot who
11 asked the question, but would you -- would you
12 feel more comfortable or would any of your
13 concerns be alleviated if the Committee amended
14 the bill to differentiate -- or restrict the
15 eight-second change to on-site signs and
16 prohibit an eight-second change on off-site
17 signs?
18 MS. COCCIOLO: That would alleviate my
19 concerns in part.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: But not completely?
21 MR. COCCIOLO: No.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you.
23 Any other questions for Ms. Cocciolo?
24 Mr. Brown.
25 MR. R. BROWN: (Inaudible.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Ms. Cocciolo,
2 thank you.
3 MS. COCCIOLO: Thank you.
4 And I'm sorry, Diane.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown.
6 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair to
7 Planning, I know that we're talking about, in
8 1987, allowing these electronic signs, but at
9 the same -- on -- I guess, Mr. Kelly, when it
10 come to on-site signs, all of these properties,
11 with that five-mile stretch that my colleague
12 was just talking about, all these companies
13 can't have an on-site sign as well; am I
14 correct with that?
15 MR. KELLY: Well, they're only allowed to
16 have an on-site sign. The -- all off-site
17 signs are illegal in the city of Jacksonville
18 right now. So this bill is only proposing to
19 regulate essentially the on-site signs. For
20 all intents and purposes, everything to do with
21 656 and the Municipal Code, that's what this is
22 regulating. It's not settling the -- or the
23 settlement agreement, it's not doing that.
24 So, yes, I mean, those signs, they've
25 always had that right within that areas
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1 [sic] -- within those commercial areas to have
2 those changing message devices.
3 The fact -- the fact of the matter is most
4 of them don't do it because there's a
5 substantial cost involved. The larger centers
6 do do those, and those are areas where they're
7 on shared signage.
8 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. But they -- and
9 through the Chair, but they do have -- often a
10 lot of these stores do have some type of sign
11 up there, right? Am I correct?
12 MR. KELLY: Correct. Just a standard
13 business sign, where -- right, either a pylon
14 sign or a monument sign that, you know, is
15 advertising the name of the business and the --
16 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. And the purpose of
17 those signs, one would believe when they submit
18 the permit, is because they want folks to know
19 that they're there; is that also correct?
20 MR. KELLY: Correct. They'd like to
21 reasonably communicate their message to the
22 public.
23 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Now, would the
24 distance be greater from those electronic signs
25 and the signs that's on -- presently on the
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1 store itself -- on the storefront in most
2 cases?
3 MR. KELLY: Well, there's two different
4 types of signs. I mean, there's still sign
5 separation rules for same sites that have to be
6 at least 200 feet apart. You saw the waiver
7 tonight. That was a roof sign, which, in
8 essence, by definition, constitutes another
9 ground sign, so it has to meet that distance
10 separation of 200 feet. There's no distance
11 requirement between a wall sign and a street
12 frontage sign or ground sign.
13 MR. R. BROWN: Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: So any shopping center or
15 commercial establishment that's properly --
16 that has properly-permitted existing signs,
17 they could all be converted to digital and
18 there's no distance restriction; is that what
19 you're saying?
20 MR. KELLY: Well, as long as they all
21 conform to the current code, right. We would
22 not allow that for --
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. But my question
24 deals with --
25 (Simultaneous speaking.)
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1 MR. KELLY: -- a nonconforming sign.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: -- (inaudible) all
3 permitted.
4 So the answer is yes?
5 MR. KELLY: Well, they still may be
6 nonconforming regardless if they were permitted
7 or not, depending on the time, so ...
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
9 MR. REINGOLD: I'm just going to add one
10 caveat to that.
11 I believe in the Riverside/Avondale
12 Overlay zoning district and possibly in others,
13 I believe in Mayport, there's actually some
14 provisions prohibiting internal illumination.
15 I just wanted to throw that out there
16 for --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
18 MR. REINGOLD: -- full information.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
20 All right. Our next speaker is Tracey
21 Arpen, followed by Nancy Landau.
22 (Mr. Arpen approaches the podium.)
23 MR. ARPEN: Good evening.
24 Tracey Arpen, 3489 Loretto Road.
25 And before I get started, I know we lost
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1 quite a few people because they had to leave.
2 I'd just like to -- since this is not a
3 quasi-judicial matter, to ask anyone who's here
4 in opposition to the ordinance and is present
5 for them to please stand.
6 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (Comply.)
7 MR. ARPEN: And then -- thank you.
8 And I'd like to ask any of them who are
9 being paid to be here tonight to please raise
10 their hand.
11 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 MR. ARPEN: And there are none.
13 Speaking of those who are paid to be here
14 tonight, I saw Mr. Catlett pick up one of the
15 cards to speak out, and it looks like he wants
16 to sandbag us again, have the last word. I
17 hope that if he's going to speak tonight, he'll
18 speak when he's supposed to have spoken, and
19 that's already passed, but I hope he'll speak
20 at an appropriate time rather than holding out
21 until the end --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, hang on one second,
23 Mr. Arpen.
24 Mr. Catlett, do you have an intention to
25 speak tonight?
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1 MR. CATLETT: No, sir.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
3 MR. ARPEN: Okay. Thank you.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that make you feel
5 better?
6 MR. ARPEN: One thing I'd like to comment
7 on first is the issue about how we need to pass
8 this eight-second rule because the current rule
9 is unenforceable. That's kind of like you find
10 out your 15-mile-an-hour speed zone is
11 unenforceable and somebody saying, "Well, we
12 need to get this 50-mile-an-hour speed zone
13 passed because the current one is
14 unenforceable." The fact is you don't need to
15 go to eight seconds. The three-minute rule, if
16 it's unenforceable, can go back to three
17 minutes.
18 From a safety standpoint, I'd like to just
19 touch on one thing. Mr. Sanders continues to
20 represent that the Federal Highway
21 Administration has recommended four to eight
22 seconds as being safe. They have not. What
23 they have said is that states who adopt a rule
24 in that range for billboards can do so without
25 violating the federal/state agreements. They
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1 have made no representations whatsoever so far
2 as safety. It's simple not true.
3 I would point out, again, that those rules
4 apply to signs that, by regulation, are spaced
5 typically 1,000, 1,500 feet in Jacksonville
6 through -- some of them weeded out -- maybe
7 even several miles apart. They're analogized
8 to the ones along the highway the State puts
9 up. Those are even further apart for -- and
10 maybe four or five miles apart.
11 We're talking about signs that -- even
12 though on the same parcel they've got to be
13 200 feet apart, on multiple parcels that are
14 adjacent, it's -- you know, it's determined how
15 wide the lot is. You may have them 50, 75 feet
16 apart on smaller lots.
17 The main thing I want to talk about is the
18 CPAC process and how we got tonight where we
19 did because I attended most of the CPAC
20 meetings, and it was an amazing process. I
21 think it may be the first time in history that
22 all six CPACs have adopted identical
23 resolutions, all supporting the Planning
24 Commission's two amendments to prohibit
25 scrolling signs and to establish the hold time
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1 for a changing message board as three minutes
2 rather than eight seconds. They also supported
3 an amendment that would prohibit
4 internally-illuminated billboards.
5 There was an amazing diversity. I -- you
6 know, you had representatives from Moncrief to
7 Mandarin and from Oceanway to Ortega. It was a
8 truly diverse group, and has been pointed out,
9 it was unanimous with one exception of one
10 person in the Southwest CPAC who indicated that
11 he was in the sign business and could not
12 support it. I think that it's almost
13 unprecedented to have that kind of unanimity
14 among neighborhoods and neighborhood
15 organizations.
16 I hope that you will abide by the
17 recommendations and support the Planning
18 Commission and also prohibit
19 internally-illuminated digital billboards.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Arpen.
21 Any questions from the committee?
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Arpen, the beaches have
24 a restriction on how often their digital signs
25 can change, and I'm not sure about Baldwin.
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1 Do you have any information about those
2 four --
3 MR. ARPEN: I don't know about Baldwin. I
4 know the three beaches communities allow their
5 electronic changing message signs to change
6 once a day. And, if you recall, they're
7 actually the replacements for the guy who used
8 to go out there with the letters on a poll,
9 that they might change once a day or once every
10 several days. You know, here we let them
11 change 480 times a day with the three-minute
12 rule. So in the beaches case, they get to
13 change once a day with the electronic signs.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
17 Nancy Landau, followed by Bruce Tyson.
18 And, Mr. Tyson, you're the last card
19 unless there's anybody else that wants to speak
20 in opposition.
21 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
22 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. Good evening.
23 Nancy Landau, 13773 Fish Eagle Drive West,
24 Jacksonville 32226.
25 I'm here representing the North District
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1 CPAC, District 6. Again, consistent with the
2 other CPACs, we considered this legislation at
3 our March 2011 meeting. That was a noticed
4 meeting. We did hear presentations from
5 Mr. Sanders, Mr. Arpen, and Mr. Brinton giving
6 us their positions on both sides. And after
7 hearing those presentations and having ample
8 opportunity for questions and answers by both
9 the proponents and opponents, the North
10 District CPAC did vote unanimously to adopt the
11 same resolution as the others supporting
12 2010-900, only with amendments, those
13 amendments being to support the Planning
14 Commission's recommendations to prohibit
15 scrolling signs, establish a hold time of three
16 minutes, and also voice our support for an
17 amendment for Ordinance 2010-900 to prohibit
18 digital billboard faces.
19 The primary topics of discussion there
20 were focused on aesthetics, quality of life,
21 distractions, and safety. We did cover all of
22 those topics.
23 I'm going to pause really quickly here and
24 try and proactively answer a couple of
25 questions I've heard council members ask other
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1 people individually. And, of course, at this
2 point, I think most of those were targeted
3 toward asking the speakers their individual
4 experiences.
5 As far as owning a business or being
6 involved in a business that had used digital
7 signs years and years ago, yes, I was
8 associated. I have an ex-husband who at the
9 time had a business on Beach Boulevard and Dean
10 Road and did use those message signs, primarily
11 static focus. They weren't -- these were the
12 old style ones -- this was way back in the
13 '80s -- but primarily for static focused [sic]
14 and to deliver singular messages to potential
15 drive-by people. Typically -- he was in
16 software sales, a new -- you know, the
17 latest -- whatever the -- you know,
18 face-to-face, shoot 'em up person game was, was
19 what would be displayed on that message board.
20 This software is in. That would be the extent
21 of it.
22 One question I also heard was related to
23 the applicability of this to digital billboard
24 signs. And I think I heard a question as to,
25 "Well, there aren't any more billboard signs
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1 being added to Jacksonville." Well, we -- on
2 our district, we have noted one that supposedly
3 is a Main Street address but is not visible
4 from Main Street and is only visible from 9A,
5 so we did have some questions on that.
6 Also, to the small businesses that are
7 using these to deliver their messages, we
8 support that. We understand that. The one
9 message I'd like to deliver to them is brevity
10 benefits, conciseness compels. Keep it short,
11 simple, to the point. That's how you gain
12 business. You don't need long scrolling
13 messages or rapid hold times or continuous
14 messages. Don't need to know everything CVS is
15 selling, just need to know they're selling
16 something.
17 Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Landau.
19 Any questions from the Committee?
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Tyson.
22 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
24 Bruce Tyson, 7214 Old Middleburg Road
25 South in Jacksonville.
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1 I'm here representing the Southwest CPAC,
2 past chair, current vice chair.
3 On February the 14th, we met at a CPAC
4 meeting and -- to take up this issue. It was
5 an announced meeting. We invited both sides to
6 appear to present their position. The
7 proponents of the bill did not attend our
8 meeting.
9 Mr. Arpen did bring a presentation to us.
10 And after the presentation, there was
11 approximately a 30-minute conversation,
12 question-and-answer period. It actually swung
13 in all different directions and involved not
14 only safety, but aesthetics, and what we wanted
15 for Jacksonville. And at the conclusion of
16 that discussion, it was voted on by the CPAC,
17 with the one descending vote, to support but --
18 to oppose 2010-900 in its present form, but to
19 support the Planning Commission's two
20 amendments to the ordinance prohibiting the
21 scrolling signs and to establish the hold time
22 for a changing message board as three minutes.
23 We also voted to support an amendment to
24 the -- ordinance number 2010-900 that would
25 prevent the digital billboard signs -- faces.
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1 And, in addition, we would urge
2 Mayor Peyton to veto the ordinance should it --
3 the amendment not be incorporated and the
4 ordinance be passed.
5 And this was signed by our Chair, Roseanne
6 Vernon (phonetic), who could not be here this
7 evening.
8 As I said, all points were discussed, from
9 safety to -- to esthetics, and it was a general
10 consensus of the folks there that we did not
11 want this in its present form. And it was
12 probably one of the livelier meetings that
13 we've had in some time. And this is our
14 position.
15 Thank you.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Tyson.
17 Any questions from the committee?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
20 Anyone else care to address the Committee
21 in opposition to the bill?
22 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one
24 else, then, the public hearing is closed. We
25 are back in committee.
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1 Ms. Diane, are you okay?
2 THE REPORTER: Yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
4 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt, do you want to go
6 on the record with that? Do you have a
7 question?
8 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
9 Through the Chair, I didn't know if we had
10 an amendment yet or --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: There's an amendment on
12 your agenda from -- these are the Planning
13 Commission amendments, Mr. Reingold?
14 MR. REINGOLD: There are two separate
15 issues, actually. There are Planning
16 Commission amendments, which the Planning
17 Commission deleted through the -- permitting
18 the scrolling signs and to having the hold time
19 being three minutes instead of eight seconds.
20 Additionally, there is a PHS amendment,
21 which was to essentially say whatever you do
22 with the two sections referenced in the
23 ordinance, you should do the same thing for
24 656.1601. And there's another reference to
25 changing message (inaudible) --
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: The --
2 (Simultaneous speaking.)
3 MR. REINGOLD: -- there.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: The first amendment at the
5 top is PHS, and the other two are the Planning
6 Commission. Does that answer your question,
7 Mr. Holt?
8 MR. HOLT: Yes.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right.
10 Mr. Dick Brown.
11 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 I just had a question. Do we go into
13 amendments or do we put this in a posture by
14 moving it and then going to work on it?
15 What --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll need to -- we'll need
17 a motion to put it on the floor, and then if
18 anybody wants to amend --
19 MR. D. BROWN: I would -- I would move
20 approval of the bill so that we could --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion to approve by
22 Mr. Brown --
23 MR. R. BROWN: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: -- second by the other
25 Mr. Brown. Dick Brown on the motion,
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1 Reggie Brown on the second.
2 Discussion?
3 Mr. Bishop.
4 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 I have three amendments that I'd like to
6 make. Would you like them one at a time?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that might be a
8 little cleaner to handle.
9 MR. BISHOP: All right. Let's start with
10 the first amendment would be to include in this
11 bill a prohibition against
12 internally-illuminated digital billboards.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll second that amendment.
14 Is there discussion?
15 Mr. Brown.
16 MR. D. BROWN: Could you repeat that?
17 MR. BISHOP: The amendment would be to
18 include in this bill a prohibition against
19 internally-illuminated digital billboards.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop, is that an
21 amendment to address the concern about the
22 change times for off-site signs that was
23 mentioned by several speakers? Does that
24 address that issue?
25 MR. BISHOP: That would address that
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1 issue.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
3 All right. Mr. Reingold, do you have a
4 question?
5 MR. REINGOLD: No.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: You don't have a question.
7 MR. REINGOLD: Did I hear a second on
8 that?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I seconded it.
10 MR. REINGOLD: Okay. I just wanted to
11 state that in the settlement agreement -- in
12 the Clear Channel settlement agreement -- and I
13 know there are others out there -- I just
14 wanted to -- the Committee to be aware that
15 essentially the decision by the City has been
16 that digital billboards can be constructed
17 under the settlement agreement. And if the
18 City Council decides to adopt legislation
19 such -- or an amendment such as this, it
20 would -- at this point would not be
21 enforceable, but I just want to make that
22 clear.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Why wouldn't it be
24 enforceable, Mr. Reingold? Because --
25 MR. REINGOLD: At the current time,
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1 there's a provision within the settlement
2 agreement that says that, In consideration
3 of -- for Naegele's agreements as expressed
4 herein, the City and Capsigns covenant that
5 they shall not sue or otherwise bring any
6 enforcement or regulatory action against
7 Naegele, its successors or assigns, in
8 connection with the billboards listed in
9 Exhibits A, B, E, F, and G insofar as those
10 billboards and the specific rights granted
11 herein to maintain, repair, replace, or
12 relocate said billboards are affected by any
13 existing or additional regulations, and then it
14 goes to include a bunch --
15 One of the interpretations of the City
16 currently is that they're allowed -- Cap- --
17 Clear Channel is allowed to rebuild its signs
18 with digital billboards.
19 MR. BISHOP: Mr. Chairman, if I may ask of
20 Mr. Reingold, what is the basis for that
21 interpretation? Because in everything you've
22 read, I did not hear the word "digital
23 billboard" listed at all. In fact, digital
24 billboards didn't exist when those settlement
25 agreements were written.
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1 What's the basis for that interpretation?
2 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair to the
3 Council Member, the basis of that
4 interpretation is that -- in a couple of
5 sections of the settlement agreement, it talks
6 about you cannot reconstruct a sign or repair a
7 sign with different types of construction. And
8 then in -- specifically in the section about
9 rebuilding, it left out the phrase about
10 different types of construction; therefore, the
11 interpretation of it was there was a reason
12 that you left out that phrase, but I can
13 certainly research that very quickly and pull
14 that --
15 MR. BISHOP: I would appreciate that
16 because I, quite frankly, don't get it.
17 MR. KELLY: Through the Chair, just to
18 also kind of add -- I think the -- the issue is
19 dealing with an on-site and an off-site sign,
20 and an off-site -- all billboards are off-site
21 signs. As such, they're illegal in the city of
22 Jacksonville today. So all the terms of every
23 billboard are subject to the settlement
24 agreement. So any amendment to the code would,
25 in effect, not have any effect on the
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1 billboards or the settlement agreement.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
3 Let me just jump in here, Mr. Bishop.
4 Maybe I'm having, like, a brain warp or
5 something, but didn't I ask that question
6 earlier, Mr. Reingold, about whether we could
7 amend the bill before us to prohibit the
8 changing on off-site signs?
9 MR. REINGOLD: The idea was -- is could
10 there be a difference between off-site and
11 on-site signs? For instance, did we want to
12 have different dwell times for them, distance
13 requirements for on-site signs that are
14 digital?
15 THE CHAIRMAN: You're saying we can -- so
16 you're -- the answer to that question earlier
17 was that, in this bill, we could put a
18 different dwell time for off-site signs, but
19 you're telling Mr. Bishop that we can't
20 prohibit changing message signs on off-site
21 signs; is that what you're saying?
22 MR. REINGOLD: Well, my issue with what
23 the Council Member proposed was that you're
24 actually talking about the construction and not
25 the dwell times.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
2 MR. BISHOP: Well then, for purposes of
3 tonight, I will change my amendment to state
4 that the dwell time for off-site signs cannot
5 be shorter than 24 hours.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I'll second that for
7 discussion, Mr. Bishop, but -- Mr. Brown --
8 Mr. Holt, you're on the queue.
9 MR. HOLT: I'm on the bill.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: You're on the bill.
11 Okay. Mr. Redman, you're on the queue.
12 Are you on the amendment or on the bill?
13 MR. REDMAN: On the amendment.
14 Through the Chair, Mr. Reingold, from what
15 I understand now, this bill that we're voting
16 on has nothing to do -- period. It will not
17 affect off-site signs at all, including
18 billboards, has nothing -- and that they will
19 not be included in this vote.
20 MR. REINGOLD: No. Actually, in fact, the
21 eight-second dwell time hold would apply to all
22 signs, whether they're off-site or on-site.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman, how did you get
24 back on the queue already? You're back on the
25 queue.
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1 All right. Mr. Brown.
2 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 I was just going say that we have had some
4 real quality discussion tonight and public
5 input, and it would seem that we should avoid
6 any sort of impulsive attempts to deal with the
7 billboards. It might be worth a separate
8 ordinance so that we could really get some good
9 advice and background, but I -- I couldn't
10 support that if that's something we want to
11 take to a vote. It -- it is not thought out
12 and deserves a good bit of attention.
13 MR. BISHOP: Through the Chair to
14 Mr. Brown, this is well thought out, and it is
15 not impulsive. And considering that this
16 particular bill will affect off-site signs, I
17 think it's very much pertinent to the
18 discussion tonight.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
20 Mr. Bishop.
21 Anything else, Mr. Brown?
22 MR. D. BROWN: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion on
24 the amendment?
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Let's have a show of
2 hands. All those in favor of the Bishop
3 Amendment, raise your hand.
4 (Indicating.)
5 MR. BISHOP: (Indicating.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed.
7 MR. REDMAN: (Indicating.)
8 MR. HOLT: (Indicating.)
9 MR. D. BROWN: (Indicating.)
10 MR. R. BROWN: (Indicating.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: That amendment fails.
12 MR. BISHOP: Okay. Mr. Chairman, my
13 second amendment would be to incorporate the
14 Planning Commission's suggested amendment to
15 prohibit scrolling message signs.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll second that for
17 discussion.
18 Any discussion?
19 Mr. Holt, I'm going to take you off the
20 queue, but I'll keep you on first for the bill;
21 is that okay?
22 MR. HOLT: Yes.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
24 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair, the
25 scrolling signs, if they're scrolling once
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1 every eight seconds and they attract
2 business -- I hate to do that to businesses
3 that are using them now and using them
4 successfully.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman, for
6 clarification, I think a scrolling sign is one
7 that just kind of scrolls, like, you know, at
8 the bottom of the TV screen --
9 (Simultaneous speaking.)
10 MR. REDMAN: Yeah. From what I
11 understand, it can only go across, you know, in
12 an eight-second period of time.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold, would you
14 clarify that? Does it stop for eight seconds
15 and then resume? It just continuously scrolls?
16 MR. REINGOLD: The issue was essentially
17 that scrolling messages were ones that were
18 just words or numbers and they would move
19 continuously across the screen.
20 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reggie Brown.
22 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair --
23 THE CHAIRMAN: On the amendment.
24 MR. R. BROWN: -- on the amendment,
25 dealing with the scrolling signs, I just want
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1 to make sure I have some understanding because
2 this is new to me as well.
3 And I understand scrolling, but, you know,
4 I was really thinking that -- if there's a
5 break and then -- it was just the structure of
6 the message that was different, not
7 necessarily, you know, the consistency of a
8 message scrolling.
9 So my question -- a scrolling sign, we
10 have -- we can also use this with billboards as
11 well, off-site, and get the same --
12 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair to the
13 Council Member, essentially under the
14 definition, there are two sort of options for
15 changing message devices. One is one in which
16 there is a verbal or numerical message that
17 continuously scrolls from left to right. And
18 then, two, that's when your entire face changes
19 all at once. So those are your two options.
20 And then the hold time essentially applies to
21 when your message changes all at once.
22 But if you're scrolling, all it says is,
23 "displays a verbal or numerical message that
24 continuously scrolls from left to right with
25 all other portions of the sign static and
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1 unchanging."
2 THE CHAIRMAN: So it would be like the
3 bottom of your TV screen when they're telling
4 you there's a thunderstorm coming. You know
5 how it -- I think it actually goes from right
6 to left, though, not left to right.
7 MR. REINGOLD: If that is correct, I'd be
8 happy to hear an amendment on that.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Maybe another continent
10 would read it the other way, but --
11 Mr. Holt.
12 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
13 Through the Chair, I guess I'll go ahead
14 and kind of give my whole thoughts on this
15 because I'm going support this amendment.
16 I think that the three-minute hold time
17 would render a lot of signs out there --
18 millions of dollars worth of signs -- much less
19 effective. The point of the signs is to get a
20 message to people who are passing by, possibly
21 stopped at a stop sign or a red light.
22 And we've seen some examples tonight where
23 someone absolutely has to have more than one
24 message reach someone. If you pull up to a
25 sign and it just says "24-month term," then you
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1 didn't get the whole message. So I think that
2 the three-minute hold time would really affect
3 a lot of businesses and hurt a lot of folks
4 that have spent tens of thousands of dollars on
5 these signs.
6 The scrolling messages -- I think
7 scrolling messages beg for you to continue
8 reading and put you in an unsafe situation. By
9 the nature of the scrolling message, you have
10 to finish the sentence to get it, and I think
11 that's unsafe, so I will support this amendment
12 to oppose the scrolling message.
13 Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Holt.
15 Dick Brown, followed by Reggie Brown.
16 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 I could support that, but I -- I hadn't
18 heard information that there were certain signs
19 that were only built to scroll. And if we do
20 amend them out while passing a bill that allows
21 some form of changeable message boards, that
22 would seem to be discriminating, but I -- I
23 don't know. It would --
24 If there was a generation of signs -- I'm
25 picturing some in front of schools, and -- it
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1 appears the design is nothing more than a
2 single line that scrolls, but I guess we could
3 always talk about it later if we --
4 I agree it's not as desirable, but if it's
5 the only thing that technology did and that
6 generation of sign owners got amended out
7 and -- that would certainly be something I
8 think we'd want to talk about, but we don't
9 have that information. It's -- and I didn't
10 have a -- I had heard that understanding from
11 someone discussing the sign ordinances, but
12 the -- the gentleman who spoke earlier was not
13 totally clear on it, and he did -- he seemed to
14 think the signs can be programed to do both.
15 If that's the case, that would be a simple
16 solution, is just adjust your sign for your
17 message without scrolling.
18 But I -- I'm asking that we think about --
19 if we've -- if we were going to outlaw it --
20 one segment that -- by mistake, then we'd
21 almost have to deal with that again. I don't
22 know the best way to approach it.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
24 Mr. Reggie Brown.
25 MR. R. BROWN: Right. And I'm -- through
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1 the Chair -- and -- on the same lines -- and
2 this is probably more of a question for
3 Planning. Do we know the impact, if we were to
4 amend this bill and not allow scrolling, how
5 many companies will be impacted by this? And
6 do we have an alternative, you know? We don't
7 want to impose an expense on folks that are
8 already invested, you know, in these signs.
9 MR. KELLY: I guess there's -- through the
10 Chair to Councilman Brown, I guess there's two
11 schools of thought. One is from an enforcement
12 perspective and whether or not it is an easily
13 correctable situation, if it's just a
14 programming thing with the sign. The other
15 would be probably looking at a grandfather
16 clause for those signs that were permitted
17 prior to enactment of this ordinance, and they
18 would be grandfathered until such time as maybe
19 the property changed hands. That's kind of the
20 way we deal with it now, with existing
21 nonconforming signs, as they're required to be
22 brought into compliance with a -- a change in
23 ownership of the business or the property or
24 putting up a new sign.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
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1 Mr. Holt, I have Mr. Bishop for the first
2 time and then I'll come back to you.
3 Mr. Bishop.
4 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 My understanding of the technology of
6 these scrolling message type signs is they're
7 all controlled by a computer. Somebody sitting
8 at a desk can reprogram it to go from scrolling
9 to static. It doesn't cost anything except
10 maybe somebody taking 30 seconds to open up the
11 software and make it work.
12 So this isn't an issue of old technology
13 only being able to scroll. The more it moves,
14 the more sophisticated the technology. The
15 original old, old signs couldn't do anything
16 more except flash a message. When you start
17 scrolling, now you introduce higher levels of
18 technology. So the old signs -- it's not an
19 issue of only being able to scroll. Those
20 things can all be changed back to go to static
21 with very little effort at all.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
23 Mr. Holt.
24 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
25 Through the Chair, could we have the
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1 gentleman come down from Taylor Signs?
2 I had asked him earlier this question and
3 I believe his answer was that signs that scroll
4 can also be put on a static message.
5 (Mr. Taylor approaches the podium.)
6 MR. HOLT: Is that correct, sir?
7 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, they can be programed to
8 be a static message or a scroll.
9 MR. HOLT: Okay.
10 MR. TAYLOR: Most signs that you see
11 scrolling -- it is in their best interest to
12 have it scrolling continuously because,
13 obviously, you can't sit there long enough to
14 read the entire message, so they usually are
15 short and sweet.
16 A scrolling message is basically --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor --
18 MR. TAYLOR: -- a one-liner.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: -- the question was, can
20 they be programmed to be not scrolling? And
21 you answered that.
22 Thank you, sir.
23 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, sir.
24 And I was trying to elaborate on the --
25 the one- or two-liners -- okay.
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1 That's fine.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Taylor.
3 MR. HOLT: All right. Thank you, sir.
4 And so I think Mr. Bishop is correct in
5 that if somebody has a scrolling message that
6 has a sentence, it could be changed to have --
7 on an eight-second pattern, part of the
8 sentence and the rest of the sentence, or it
9 can be changed in such a way that it would be
10 just as effective without the safety risk of
11 scrolling.
12 Thank you.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Holt.
14 Mr. Redman.
15 MR. REDMAN: Through the Chair, could I
16 have the gentleman from the sign company come
17 back up?
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Which sign company, Taylor?
19 MR. REDMAN: Taylor.
20 (Mr. Taylor approaches the podium.)
21 MR. REDMAN: So if they can change these
22 scrolling signs to where they would go on and
23 off, could they not, whatever the message is,
24 time it to where there would be eight seconds
25 between each message?
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1 MR. TAYLOR: Yes.
2 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Now, that would be,
3 you know, I would think, doing the same thing
4 that we're doing with the eight-second hold on
5 the other signs?
6 MR. TAYLOR: Right.
7 MR. REDMAN: Thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, again,
9 Mr. Taylor.
10 Maybe you should sit on the front row.
11 MR. TAYLOR: That's okay. I need the
12 exercise.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: There may be some more
14 questions.
15 Mr. Reggie Brown for, like, the third time
16 or something, fourteenth --
17 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair, I
18 just want to make sure I understand my
19 colleague regarding the scroll and -- we could
20 have the same process with the eight-second
21 delay for each message. Are we presenting that
22 as an amendment or what are we doing? I guess
23 I'm trying to figure it out.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, I think the
25 amendment on the floor is to prohibit scrolling
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1 signs. So assuming the bill passes in its
2 present form, the only -- their option would be
3 a static message for no less than eight
4 seconds.
5 All right. Any further discussion on the
6 Bishop Amendment?
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. All those in
9 favor raise your hand, please.
10 (Indicating.)
11 MR. BISHOP: (Indicating.)
12 MR. HOLT: (Indicating.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed.
14 MR. REDMAN: (Indicating.)
15 MR. D. BROWN: (Indicating.)
16 MR. R. BROWN: (Indicating.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, that
18 amendment fails.
19 Mr. Bishop, did you have one additional
20 amendment?
21 MR. BISHOP: Well, in light of the first
22 two, I don't expect this to go too much farther
23 either. But considering the sentiment, I would
24 propose that we change the dwell time to one
25 minute instead of eight seconds. At least it's
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1 not as short as eight seconds; it's not as long
2 as three minutes. But one minute is certainly
3 reasonable with respect to the concerns being
4 expressed this evening about the proliferation
5 of these things and the -- in effect, what it
6 would amount to, a flashing experience going
7 down a length of road.
8 And, as we all know, as economies of scale
9 being what they are, the more these things are
10 allowed, the more people buy them, the less
11 expensive they get, then it becomes a
12 self-propagating event. And so I would propose
13 that it be changed to one minute.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll second the amendment
15 for discussion.
16 Discussion, Mr. Redman.
17 MR. REDMAN: The -- you know, you talk
18 about the proliferation of these signs. It's
19 the price of them, and I don't think that
20 they'll go down that much. They've been out
21 there for quite some time. I mean, I'd love to
22 have one myself, but I couldn't afford one, and
23 most businesses, even larger than mine, cannot
24 afford one. So you're going to be very limited
25 on the amount of them that appear on any given
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1 street.
2 But, you know, I oppose the one minute.
3 You get past the eight seconds -- I think eight
4 seconds is a fair time to see what's going on.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
6 Any other discussion on the third Bishop
7 Amendment?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. All those in
10 favor raise your hand, please.
11 (Indicating.)
12 MR. BISHOP: (Indicating.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed, raise your hand.
14 MR. REDMAN: (Indicating.)
15 MR. HOLT: (Indicating.)
16 MR. D. BROWN: (Indicating.)
17 MR. R. BROWN: (Indicating.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. By your action, the
19 amendment fails.
20 Any other discussion?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Would anybody like to move
23 the first amendment, the PHS amendment?
24 MR. HOLT: I move the amendment.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: There's a motion by
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1 Mr. Holt on the PHS amendment.
2 Second --
3 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: No. This is just to make
5 it consistent in 656.
6 MR. R. BROWN: Second.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Second by Mr. Reggie Brown.
8 Discussion on the PHS amendment?
9 MR. REDMAN: Is it on the agenda?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: It's not listed on your
11 agenda. It's the one that says -- just make it
12 consistent with the definition in 656.1601.
13 Mr. Redman, discussion on the amendment?
14 MR. REDMAN: No.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: You have the floor.
16 MR. REDMAN: No.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anyone else?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other
20 discussion?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. All those in
23 favor of that amendment, raise your hand.
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (Indicating.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. That amendment is
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1 approved unanimously.
2 Mr. Redman, did you want to offer another
3 amendment?
4 MR. REDMAN: Yes, sir.
5 I'd like to make an amendment saying that
6 the scrolling signs be allowed but that there
7 be an eight-second interval between each
8 message that goes across.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that inherent in the
10 bill if the bill passes, Mr. --
11 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, to the
12 question -- or to the Chair about -- about that
13 issue. Actually, right now --
14 THE CHAIRMAN: I've answered my own
15 question. Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
16 Motion by Mr. Redman, second by Mr. Reggie
17 Brown.
18 Discussion on that amendment, Mr. Bishop.
19 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 To either the -- Mr. Redman or somebody,
21 what exactly does that -- would that amendment
22 do? I mean, scrolling is scrolling, and
23 changing at eight seconds is changing at eight
24 seconds. How do you combine the two and what's
25 the effect? What does it do?
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1 MR. REDMAN: You would have a break in
2 between each message. I mean, still it would
3 be scrolling, but you would have eight seconds
4 before the next message comes across.
5 MR. BISHOP: So you're saying a message
6 would start at one end and scroll across the
7 screen, and it would sit there for eight
8 seconds, and the next one would scroll across
9 screen; is that what I'm understanding that to
10 mean?
11 MR. REDMAN: There would only be a message
12 every eight seconds to start scrolling across
13 the screen.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. --
15 MR. BISHOP: But --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me interrupt.
17 MR. BISHOP: Okay.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman, is your
19 amendment saying that the scrolling message can
20 only last eight seconds on the screen?
21 MR. REDMAN: That -- each message, that
22 there will be eight seconds between each
23 message that is scrolled.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: So the message could scroll
25 for an hour across the screen, but if it -- but
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1 you would have to have an eight-second --
2 MR. REDMAN: Well, okay. We'll make it --
3 THE CHAIRMAN: I mean, it could be like --
4 I mean, that -- if you had a continuous
5 message, I mean, you would never have an
6 eight-second break.
7 MR. REDMAN: Okay. So we need to limit
8 the time of the message itself to say an
9 eight-second message and an eight-second break.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. So you're going
11 to offer a substitute amendment for an eight --
12 scrolling messages limited to eight seconds and
13 then there's an eight-second break in between
14 the next scrolling message; is that what you're
15 saying?
16 MR. REDMAN: Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is there a second to
18 that amendment?
19 Do you have that, Mr. Reingold?
20 MR. REINGOLD: I'm sorry. I'm just trying
21 to envision it.
22 So you're going to have a message that --
23 THE CHAIRMAN: A scrolling message would
24 be allowed that could continue across for an
25 eight-second message, at which point there
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1 would have to be an eight-second break before
2 the successive message could begin scrolling,
3 which in turn would be a maximum of eight
4 seconds.
5 MR. REINGOLD: Right. And the
6 eight-second break is essentially nothing on
7 the screen?
8 MR. REDMAN: Right.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is there a second to
10 that amendment?
11 I'll second it for discussion.
12 Discussion? Any discussion?
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. All those in
15 favor of that amendment, raise your hand.
16 (Indicating.)
17 MR. BISHOP: (Indicating.)
18 MR. REDMAN: (Indicating.)
19 MR. D. BROWN: (Indicating.)
20 MR. R. BROWN: (Indicating.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed, raise your hand.
22 MR. HOLT: (Indicating.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: That amendment is approved.
24 Mr. Holt, would you like to take the
25 chair?
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1 (Mr. Holt assumes the chair.)
2 THE VICE CHAIR: Mr. Crescimbeni.
3 MR. CRESCIMBENI: Thank you, Mr. Vice
4 Chair.
5 I'm not sure where to start. I guess the
6 first place I'll start is I'm quite intrigued
7 that the beaches council member has introduced
8 legislation that will affect the City of
9 Jacksonville when the three major communities
10 that he represents all have dwell times of
11 24 hours.
12 I can't imagine in our wildest dreams if
13 that scenario was reversed what kind of
14 squawking we would hear from the beaches
15 communities about home rule, so I'm troubled by
16 that.
17 We've heard from every single CPAC
18 tonight. We have letters in the file from the
19 Greater Arlington Civic Council, the Murray
20 Hill folks, San Marco Preservation, Mandarin
21 Community Club. I mean, the list goes on and
22 on. And they all said one thing, and that was
23 to follow the recommendation of the Planning
24 Commission and to restrict internal --
25 internally-illuminated off-site signs.
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1 I can't recall when we've had that many
2 organizations come out and all be lined up on
3 an issue like that before, and I'm not going to
4 ignore that perspective. Those folks have just
5 as much right to express an opinion about what
6 goes on in this city as a business owner with a
7 sign, no different.
8 So I'm not going to support the bill. And
9 I've been in this situation before, and the
10 council -- when the council botched the
11 handling of legislation, in the humble opinion
12 of the citizens, and they took matters into
13 their own hands. And I suspect that's probably
14 what's going to happen this time.
15 But, with that said, I would offer an
16 amendment similar to Mr. Bishop's that would
17 differentiate between dwell times for on-site
18 signs and off-site signs and suggest that
19 off-site signs be restricted to -- and we heard
20 this from countless people that came to the
21 podium today. And if this isn't about off-site
22 signs, it's just about on-site signs, then this
23 amendment should be approved. But maybe it
24 isn't. Maybe it is about off-site signs. I
25 mean, I haven't met with any of the off-site
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1 sign people, but some of you may have.
2 But my amendment would be to restrict the
3 dwell time of off-site signs to at least three
4 minutes, no more frequent than three minutes.
5 MR. HOLT: Second.
6 (Mr. Crescimbeni resumes the chair.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Discussion on
8 that amendment?
9 Mr. Dick Brown.
10 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11 I need to give a little background on
12 introducing this bill. I realized how many
13 signs were out there and how many nonprofits --
14 churches, schools -- and this, of course --
15 maybe I just -- in fact, I would venture to
16 say, respectfully, most of us don't pay too
17 much attention unless it's a message you're
18 looking for or a business you're looking for,
19 and --
20 But when we separated those bills, when we
21 separated the message boards out from the real
22 estate open-house signs a while back, I
23 realized that it needs some clarification. And
24 then as we debated it, talked about it, that's
25 when I realized how many churches, how many
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1 schools --
2 And if you picture a school, the -- the
3 school board darn sure didn't buy a message
4 board for a -- for a school. Not all schools
5 have them. Some hard-working PTA folks or
6 advisory council members worked hard, did
7 fund-raising, and put a sign up that is truly
8 in the public interest. The parents can get a
9 notice about an open house, a carnival, a PTA
10 meeting, and the sign can give them the date
11 and the time and hopefully encourage
12 participation. That type of thing is what
13 prompted me to go ahead with the -- with a
14 bill.
15 Small businesses, we've heard, depend on
16 these signs. And certainly in a downturn in
17 the economy -- and we're getting ready to
18 over-regulate another segment of the community
19 with -- with the signs that would diminish the
20 value of the sign.
21 It's a huge investment, as Mr. Redman
22 said, and somebody could sit down and tell you
23 what that sign would be worth when -- when you
24 restrict it to three minutes or more. Maybe
25 it's worth a fourth of what it would be before
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1 because you don't have the continuity of any
2 messages. And so I -- I felt very strongly
3 that -- that we -- with all due respect to the
4 folks who are here today, this was very well
5 orchestrated. And my hat is off to you,
6 Mr. Chairman, because you did a good job with
7 that, and --
8 But I venture to say that the folks out
9 there representing some of these churches that
10 have also raised money to try to reach their
11 community and get them to -- to be part of
12 their church community, most of those folks
13 don't know what we're working on. They have no
14 clue that they may be cited and not be able to
15 use their signs the way they did in the past,
16 and that's what has motivated me to -- to
17 introduce the bill and to support the bill.
18 This was not an issue that we talked about
19 until we put it on the table. None of us got
20 phone calls about "do something about these
21 signs" until we -- we created the issue, and we
22 fanned the flames. And I respect the opinion
23 of these folks that were here today, but that's
24 just scratching the surface.
25 And so I would -- I would urge you to not
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1 try to reach out to some issue that we haven't
2 debated and we don't know the legality of. I
3 think we should deal with what we have on the
4 table right now, and then I may be willing to
5 support something that deals with the off-site.
6 But some of these things are far-reaching
7 in -- both financially and legally, and we
8 should know where we're going when we tackle
9 them. And I would urge the Committee to -- to
10 reject the off-site amendment, and then we can
11 move the bill.
12 And I think we need -- there's another
13 segment of the community that deserves our
14 respect as much as our CPACs, and that is the
15 folks who have nonprofit, small businesses,
16 people like that who don't -- just don't have a
17 clue of what's going on right now. Nobody has
18 provided them with prepared resolutions and
19 called them to a meeting or given them a chance
20 to speak out on what it does for their
21 businesses.
22 So I encourage your support, and then
23 we'll deal with separate segments of this,
24 properly, with -- with equal debate and details
25 and information from our attorneys.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
2 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you for the time.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
4 Mr. Redman. On the amendment, please.
5 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
6 Yes, I agree with Mr. Brown that -- you
7 know, that we're dealing -- trying to deal with
8 something that is not what we're here to deal
9 with. And I'd like to ask Mr. Reingold if that
10 is a legal amendment that can be made in this
11 situation.
12 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair to
13 Councilman Redman -- but, first off, I just
14 want to get clarification as to who seconded
15 that. I know Council Member Crescimbeni --
16 Okay. Council Member Bishop.
17 Thank you.
18 To answer the question, I think it's a
19 legal -- I think you're legally able to
20 distinguish and say the off-site signs need to
21 be three minutes, the other on-site can be
22 eight seconds. However, if you're going to
23 make these types of distinctions -- I'm not
24 saying you can't. And I'll certainly quote
25 from -- from Mr. Bill Brinton, is, "From the
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1 standpoint of a lawyer who represents local
2 governments in their defense against legal
3 challenges to sign regulations, however, I
4 would caution any local government to be very
5 careful in the treatment of this issue so that
6 one regulation does not undermine the rational
7 basis as in esthetics and traffic safety or
8 another regulation." And his statement
9 specifically addressed the fact of having
10 different dwell times for off-site versus
11 on-site signs.
12 I would just -- would love to hear on the
13 record some reasons or bases for that
14 distinction. And I'm not trying to persuade
15 you guys not to. I just want to make sure I
16 kind of understand the basis for why the
17 billboards would be -- how off-site billboards
18 would be held to three minutes and the on-site
19 signs, that would be held to eight seconds.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. REDMAN: In that case, I agree with
22 Mr. Brown that we need to take this up at a
23 different -- as a different issue at a
24 different time.
25 Thank you.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
2 Mr. Bishop.
3 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 A couple of points. Number one, I believe
5 this amendment is totally germane to this
6 discussion because, as we have just heard, this
7 ordinance affects both on-site and off-site
8 signs, so it is completely relevant.
9 With respect to some offered reasons as to
10 why they should be different is -- the off-site
11 signage are orders of magnitude larger than
12 on-site signs, and the longer dwell time is
13 necessary for public safety purposes because
14 when a larger sign of that -- of that size
15 flashes at a much quicker frequency, it is
16 going to provide a much larger distraction and,
17 therefore, it would be totally relevant to
18 regulate those as a longer distance.
19 So that's my rationale for doing it.
20 I'm not quite sure what churches and
21 nonprofits have to do with this amendment
22 because they don't advertise off-site anyway.
23 They're completely on-site. They don't have
24 off-site signage, so I would -- I don't quite
25 get that.
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1 So with respect to rationale for doing it,
2 the reason I offered is -- was -- is my
3 rationale for doing it, my rationale for
4 supporting it.
5 Thank you.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
7 Mr. Reggie Brown. On the amendment,
8 please.
9 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair, I
10 actually share some of your sentiments, if you
11 will, regarding the differences -- the
12 differences with the beaches and other areas,
13 but that's one of the consequences of a
14 consolidated government with exceptions.
15 And looking at off-site and on-site and
16 coming up with disparities, these are just, in
17 my opinion, more disparities, the way that we
18 treat things, which we treat things
19 differently.
20 But my question is really more to
21 Planning, dealing with billboards and this
22 whole off-site conversation and when it comes
23 to electronics, what impact would it have on
24 the current billboards out there presently?
25 MR. KELLY: Again, I mean, the Department,
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1 we don't regulate off-site signs. The City --
2 again, those are under the terms of the
3 settlement agreement.
4 The difference between the dwell time --
5 there's a statement made, and -- and I guess
6 it's an equitable issue. From my perspective,
7 if it was more of a problem potentially for the
8 on-site.
9 From the way the discussion was going
10 previously, it was the number of signs, the
11 proliferation of that, not the one that's every
12 half a mile or a mile away from another one.
13 So I was thinking -- or -- thinking that the
14 trend was going to be towards maybe amendments
15 to the on-site signs that, you know, have the
16 setbacks from the intersections greater -- or,
17 you know, make that on-site sign area for the
18 changing message device smaller based on a
19 performance standard, according to the road
20 frontage or something.
21 I didn't -- I didn't see it going that
22 direction, but it wouldn't have any effect on
23 the way the Department current regulates.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion on
25 the amendment?
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1 MR. REINGOLD: (Indicating.)
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold, you have
3 discussion?
4 MR. REINGOLD: I'm sorry. I just wanted
5 to add one other thing with regards to the
6 amendment. I assume Councilmember Bishop was
7 also thinking in terms of, like, an aesthetic
8 argument, that the large signs changing a lot
9 would have an aesthetic impact on our city?
10 MR. BISHOP: You can add that as well.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
12 Any further discussion?
13 Mr. Brown -- Reggie Brown.
14 MR. R. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair,
15 maybe I'm confused because we -- and this is --
16 definitely has to do with the off-site signs in
17 other areas. I mean, when I'm passing
18 through -- and I keep hearing Winter Park,
19 Orlando -- these signs change. You know, they
20 don't just sit there. I mean, maybe every, I
21 don't know, ten seconds they change to
22 something else. But I keep hearing that, you
23 know, it's illegal in other municipalities, and
24 I'm not really following that because I see
25 this any time that I'm traveling in that
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1 Central Florida area.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: It depends on what
3 municipality you're in, Mr. Brown. If you go
4 to some municipalities, they have digital --
5 you're talking about off-site signs.
6 MR. R. BROWN: Right.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: We call those billboards.
8 All the municipalities don't have them.
9 Some municipalities require them to not change
10 any more than 24 hours, all the way down. I
11 think we heard somebody say to -- was it two
12 seconds or something? So there's a gamut. But
13 some municipalities don't allow billboards,
14 period; some don't allow digital billboards;
15 some restrict how often they can change.
16 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. So it's really at
17 the discretion of --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
19 MR. R. BROWN: -- the body.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I mean, I think
21 Ms. Cocciolo was the speaker. Maybe she can
22 give you a list of places to drive to.
23 All right. Any further discussion?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor of the
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1 amendment, raise your hand, please.
2 (Indicating.)
3 MR. BISHOP: (Indicating.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed.
5 MR. REDMAN: (Indicating.)
6 MR. HOLT: (Indicating.)
7 MR. D. BROWN: (Indicating.)
8 MR. R. BROWN: (Indicating.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, the
10 amendment fails.
11 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: We're still on the bill.
13 Any more amendments?
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 MR. HOLT: (Inaudible.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
17 MR. HOLT: I just wanted to say a little
18 bit more about the bill before we go ahead and
19 vote on it.
20 We've heard a lot tonight about what
21 effect this might have, and one of the things
22 that was brought out tonight -- the Planning
23 Department sometimes uses the opportunity to
24 have these electronic signs to minimize the
25 number of signs out there. These are not
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1 nearly as offensive to me as some of the things
2 out there, particularly people wearing signs,
3 signs that are right up against the side of the
4 road, banners, and things like that, but --
5 (Inaudible discussion.)
6 MR. HOLT: Yes, campaign signs, really
7 offensive to me right about now.
8 But I've got several businesses in my
9 district that have reached out to me and said,
10 "You know, I spent $20,000 on this sign,"
11 thinking of a guy in Dinsmore that has an
12 air-conditioning business and he has animation
13 on his -- has an American flag that waves, and
14 that's going to be eliminated and he's upset
15 about that. But I think that that's something
16 that is -- we're meeting in the middle here.
17 We're eliminating the animation. We're --
18 I also would have supported and did
19 support eliminating the scrolling because I
20 think that -- that does get us in a position
21 where public safety is more at risk, and I
22 think that will probably come up in council
23 next week.
24 I've got folks out in Baldwin that have
25 these signs and actually has an actual video of
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1 a train going by. They will lose that through
2 this bill. Again, I think we're meeting in the
3 middle here in order to agree on an
4 eight-second hold time for a message.
5 So there are arguments on both sides, and
6 there are people who feel strongly on both
7 sides in all of our districts. We all have
8 people who run businesses, and we certainly
9 don't want to risk public safety in order for
10 these people to continue advertising their
11 businesses, but I think we've struck a good
12 middle ground here.
13 Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt, I think if the
15 train doesn't last any longer than eight
16 seconds -- right?
17 MR. REINGOLD: No.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: No. Why? It's got to be
19 verbal?
20 MR. REINGOLD: Yes, it's got to be verbal
21 and numbers.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: There went the rain.
23 Mr. Bishop.
24 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 Well, I will probably enhance my
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1 reputation for over-hyperbole here, but I think
2 what we're witnessing tonight is a sad day for
3 Jacksonville. This, I believe, is going to
4 lead to the re-uglification of the city.
5 And just close the comment -- this is sort
6 of a little, small, visual preference survey,
7 you know, the kind of thing, do you like this
8 or do you like that. I'll leave you with a
9 tale of two locations, the state of Vermont
10 versus the city of Destin. Visit each and see
11 which one you like best.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
13 Mr. Redman.
14 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
15 You know, I appreciate Mr. Brinton taking
16 me around, and I understand his passion and the
17 passion of those that came tonight to speak
18 against this, but I -- I have to say, I've been
19 in business for over 40 years. I've struggled
20 to get my business out there. It's tough.
21 Times are tough. I know of many other people
22 that are struggling to get advertising the best
23 way they can.
24 So, you know, to take that away from
25 people just, you know, takes away from -- you
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1 know, I'm different from most people, I guess.
2 I go down the road. I get upset if I can't
3 find the business I'm looking for. I need a
4 sign, something to tell me what I'm looking
5 for. You know, if it's got lights on it, I'm
6 going to see it before I do the others, I
7 suppose.
8 So, you know, I'm -- you know, I hate to
9 see your businesses struggle as much as they
10 are, and to do something -- to take an
11 opportunity away from them, I think, is very
12 wrong at this time.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dick Brown.
14 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 I move approval of the 2010-900 as
16 amended.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: We already have a motion
18 and a second on the floor, Mr. Brown. We're --
19 MR. D. BROWN: It's on the floor?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. It's been on the
21 floor. We had to have that before all the
22 amendments were made.
23 MR. D. BROWN: Very good.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any further
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1 discussion?
2 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Without getting
4 out of the chair, just one final comment.
5 I think the beaches have it right,
6 Mr. Brown. I think your neighborhoods have got
7 it right by restricting these things to
8 24 hours. I regret that Jacksonville sees it a
9 different way.
10 If there's no further discussion, open the
11 ballot, please.
12 Vote.
13 (Committee ballot opened.)
14 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes nay.)
15 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
16 MR. BISHOP: (Votes nay.)
17 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. R. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
20 (Committee ballot closed.)
21 MS. LAHMEUR: Four yea, two nay.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you've
23 approved Item 4, 2010-900.
24 I want to thank everyone in the audience
25 for attending tonight and participating in the
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1 process. I also want to thank everyone in the
2 audience for maintaining a good demeanor before
3 this body tonight on this controversial issue.
4 Mr. Reingold.
5 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair and the
6 Committee, I'll have that wrapped up as one LUZ
7 amendment between the -- what was adopted
8 earlier today and -- the PHS and what was
9 adopted --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Again, that's 2010-900
11 approved as twice amended.
12 All right. Anything else --
13 MR. REINGOLD: One amendment.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: One amendment.
15 Okay. Anything else to come before the
16 committee?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one
19 else, anybody that wants to have some more fun,
20 come back in three weeks and we'll entertain
21 you.
22 And this meeting is adjourned.
23 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
24 9:05 p.m.)
25 - - -
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1 CERTIFICATE
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3 STATE OF FLORIDA)
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4 COUNTY OF DUVAL )
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I, Diane M. Tropia, Court Reporter, certify
6 that I was authorized to and did stenographically report
the foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
7 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
8
9 DATED this 20th day of March, 2011.
10
11
12 ___________________________
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