1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Tuesday, February 1,
7 2011, commencing at 5:00 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 JOHN CRESCIMBENI, Chair.
RAY HOLT, Vice Chair.
14 WILLIAM BISHOP, Committee Member.
DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
15 STEPHEN JOOST, Committee Member.
REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
16
17 ALSO PRESENT:
18 BILL KILLINGSWORTH, Director, Planning Dept.
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
19 SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
20 KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.
21 MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
SHARONDA DAVIS, Legislative Assistant.
22
- - -
23
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 February 1, 2011 5:00 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon, everyone.
5 I'm going to call the February 1st, 2011,
6 Land Use and Zoning Committee meeting to order.
7 We appreciate everyone being here. It
8 looks like we have a fairly short agenda, so
9 hopefully we can get everybody on the -- on
10 their way shortly.
11 We will begin by having everyone introduce
12 themselves for the record.
13 And, Mr. Crofts, if you can start, please.
14 MR. CROFTS: Good evening.
15 John Crofts, representing the Planning and
16 Development Department.
17 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
18 Development.
19 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford, Planning and
20 Development.
21 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
22 Development.
23 MR. REINGOLD: Dylan Reingold with the
24 Office of General Counsel.
25 MR. D. BROWN: Dick Brown, City Council,
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 representing District 13.
2 MR. JOOST: Stephen Joost, Group 3,
3 at large.
4 MR. R. BROWN: Reginald Brown, District 10.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm John Crescimbeni,
6 at large, Group 2.
7 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt, District 11.
8 MR. BISHOP: Bill Bishop, District 2.
9 MR. REDMAN: Don Redman, District 4.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
11 everyone.
12 Mr. Reingold, would you like to deliver the
13 Land Use rules and regulations, whatever we call
14 them?
15 MR. REINGOLD: I would be absolutely
16 delighted, sir.
17 Anyone who would like to address the
18 committee tonight must fill out a yellow
19 speaker's card in its entirety. The yellow
20 speakers' cards are located on the desk up
21 front, near the podium. Once completed, please
22 return the speaker's card to the basket on the
23 front desk.
24 Any person who lobbies the City for
25 compensation is considered a lobbyist and is
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 therefore required to register their lobbying
2 activity with the City Council secretary. If
3 you are a lobbyist and have not registered with
4 the council secretary, you will not be permitted
5 to address the committee tonight.
6 Because a verbatim transcript of this
7 meeting will be prepared by a court reporter, it
8 is important that you speak clearly into the
9 microphone when you address the committee. It's
10 also important that only one person speak at a
11 time.
12 Any tangible material submitted with a
13 speaker's presentation, such as documents,
14 photographs, plans, drawings, et cetera, shall
15 become a permanent part of the public record and
16 will be retained by the committee.
17 As a courtesy, please switch any cell
18 phones, pagers, or audible devices to a silent
19 mode.
20 Additionally, there shall be no public
21 displays of support or opposition, so please
22 refrain from applause or speaking out of turn.
23 Items are generally addressed in the order
24 in which they are listed on the agenda. Copies
25 of the agenda are located on the desk up front,
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 near the podium.
2 On occasion, items may be heard out of
3 order for the sake of efficiency or to
4 accommodate scheduling conflicts.
5 Unless there is a formal hearing on a
6 particular item, each member of the public is
7 limited to three minutes for their
8 presentation. Presentations should be focused,
9 concise, and address only the item pending
10 before the committee.
11 Prior to addressing the committee, please
12 state your name and address for the court
13 reporter.
14 Decisions on rezonings, including PUDs,
15 waivers of road frontage and sign waivers are
16 all considered quasi-judicial in nature and
17 certain protocals will be followed for these
18 items.
19 First, each council member must disclose on
20 the record any ex-parte communications they have
21 had with any members of the public prior to the
22 public hearing on each applicable item. This
23 includes a brief statement of when the
24 communication took place, who the communication
25 was with, and what the subject matter of the
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 communication was about.
2 Second, the normal format is to allow the
3 applicant or agent thereof to make their
4 presentation first, followed by members of the
5 public who wish to speak in support of the item,
6 then members of the public who are in opposition
7 will be allowed to speak.
8 After all of the public comments have been
9 received, the applicant will have a brief
10 opportunity to wrap up or present a brief
11 rebuttal. The wrap-up or rebuttal shall be
12 limited to the issues brought up by the
13 speakers.
14 In some instances, the Chair may permit a
15 concise surrebuttal or response to the
16 applicant's rebuttal, which will be followed by
17 a brief final response by the applicant.
18 Finally, all quasi-judicial decisions must
19 be based on competent substantial evidence,
20 which means that the committee's decision must
21 be supported by fact-based testimony or expert
22 testimony and it cannot be based upon just
23 generalized concerns or opinions.
24 Thank you very much.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 You'll have that memorized. You won't need
2 to read it soon. You'll be able to just rattle
3 it off from memory.
4 All right. Page 2 of our agenda, item 1,
5 we have a public hearing scheduled this evening
6 on that. We're not going to take any action on
7 the bill.
8 Do we have any speaker cards? Anyone care
9 to address the committee?
10 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. The public
12 hearing is continued until April 5th, so we will
13 not have to deal with that any longer.
14 Item 2, 2010-618. The agent for the
15 applicant submitted a request to withdraw this.
16 Mr. Redman, you have worked extensively on
17 this. Do you want to give us a brief report?
18 MR. REDMAN: Yes. I -- first, I probably
19 need to declare ex-parte. Should I do that
20 now?
21 MR. BISHOP: On a withdrawal?
22 MR. REDMAN: Well --
23 MR. REINGOLD: It can't hurt.
24 MR. JOOST: It's quasi-judicial.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: It's quasi-judicial, but --
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 yeah, it probably wouldn't hurt, so if anybody
2 has any ex-parte and you want to go ahead and
3 disclose that --
4 MR. REDMAN: Okay.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: -- play it safe.
6 MR. REDMAN: All right. In June of last
7 year, we met -- had a community meeting to
8 discuss the rezoning with Wyman Duggan and
9 Sean Kelly for property uses -- possible uses of
10 the property.
11 On the 23rd of August, I had a community
12 meeting, Wyman Duggan, Sean Kelly, and the
13 community, same thing.
14 And on January 17th, met with Wyman Duggan,
15 T.R. Hainline, Chip Skinner to discuss the
16 property and possibilities.
17 Then on the 18th of January had a community
18 meeting to discuss the withdrawal of this bill
19 with the community, so -- and with Wyman Duggan
20 and Sean Kelly.
21 In these meetings, we had quite a bit of
22 discussion about the property and -- and we've
23 come to the conclusion -- I agree with the
24 applicant, that until we find -- or until they
25 find a user for this property there would be no
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 need to rezone it at this time as a PUD because
2 the -- it would be impossible to tell the
3 community what is going to be there and allow
4 them to have input in what they would like there
5 or be happy with, and we assured them that when
6 this does come about and the application comes
7 through again that they will be notified and
8 they will have input, so I would recommend that
9 we go along with the withdrawal.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
11 Any other ex-parte disclosure?
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Does the
14 applicant's agent want to just confirm for the
15 record the request for the withdrawal?
16 (Mr. Duggan approaches the podium.)
17 MR. DUGGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 Wyman Duggan,
19 Suite 1500.
20 Councilman Redman's recounting is entirely
21 correct. I would add only that we committed to
22 the neighborhood that when there is a user, we
23 would do a PUD so that they would have a --
24 tightly-structured protections.
25 They're concerned about buffering and
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 screening. And until we know what the use is,
2 it's hard to do that in a way that protects
3 them, so -- we can't move forward without a
4 rezoning, so we'll have to come back.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
6 Any questions from the committee for
7 Mr. Duggan?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
10 MR. DUGGAN: Thank you.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a motion to
12 withdraw?
13 MR. JOOST: Move to withdraw.
14 MR. REDMAN: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion by Councilman Joost
16 to withdraw, second by Councilman Redman.
17 Discussion?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot,
20 vote.
21 (Committee ballot opened.)
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 MR. R. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
4 (Committee ballot closed.)
5 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nay.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: By your action, you have
7 withdrawn item 2, 2010-618.
8 MR. DUGGAN: Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
10 Item 3, at the bottom of page 2, is
11 deferred.
12 Turning to page 3, item 4, that's scheduled
13 to taken up tonight.
14 Mr. Kelly.
15 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
16 To the Chair and Committee, ordinance
17 2010-844 seeks to rezone approximately
18 11.6 acres of land located at 4901 Richard
19 Street. This is immediately west of I-95 and
20 north of
21 The property is owned by the Memorial
22 Health Care Group. The zoning is going from -2
23 to -3. The department finds that -- this is a
24 conventional zoning, again, is consistent with
25 the underlying future land use as well as the
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 comprehensive plan and furthers specific
2 objectives and goals within the comprehensive
3 plan, specifically objective 3.2 and
4 Use Element policy 3.22.
5 The department finds that it will not
6 conflict, again, with any land development
7 regulations, and the department is recommending
8 approval.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
10 Any questions from the committee?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. This is a
13 quasi-judicial matter. Does anyone have any
14 ex-parte communication to disclose?
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none, we
17 have a public hearing this evening. The public
18 hearing is open. I have one speaker's card,
19 former council president
20 (Ms. Hipps approaches the podium.)
21 MS. HIPPS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22
23 32204.
24 I'm here to answer any questions and
25 appreciate your vote of approval.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Anybody have any questions
2 from the committee?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Hipps, she made a
5 special trip down here to answer some questions,
6 so -- sorry, Ms. Hipps.
7 MS. HIPPS: No problem.
8 Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone else care to address
10 the committee?
11 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I have no other
13 speakers' cards. The public hearing is closed.
14 And, Mr. Reingold, we need an amendment on
15 this to do what?
16 MR. REINGOLD: To the Chair, the amendment
17 essentially is to reflect that
18 the agent. There was another agent listed on
19 the legislation, but there was a change during
20 the process.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a motion on that
22 amendment?
23 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
24 MR. HOLT: Second.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion by Councilman Joost,
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 second by Councilman Holt.
2 Discussion?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor, say yes.
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed, say no.
7 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
9 adopted the amendment.
10 MR. HOLT: Move the bill as amended.
11 MR. JOOST: Second.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the bill as
13 amended by Councilman Holt, second by
14 Councilman Joost.
15 Discussion on the bill?
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot,
18 vote.
19 (Committee ballot opened.)
20 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. R. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nay.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
5 approved item 4, 2010-844, as amended.
6 Item 5 is deferred.
7 Item 6, we are scheduled for action.
8 Mr. Kelly.
9 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
10 To the Chair and Committee, application for
11 rezoning 2010-874 seeks to rezone 5,520 acres of
12 land from AGR and planned unit development to a
13 planned unit development satellite community.
14 The PUD-SC is being sought so the property
15 can be developed as a rural village,
16 master-planned community. The original PUD on
17 this property contemplated a 2,250-acre rural
18 village master plan that was approved back in
19 2006. The purpose of this rezoning is to add
20 acreage to the overall development.
21 The development will contain single- and
22 multifamily dwellings as well as offices,
23 retail, commercial and parks. A maximum of
24 15,000 dwelling units, 750,000 square feet of
25 commercial, and 300,000 square feet of offices
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 is proposed for the site. There will be at
2 least three residential types with no single lot
3 type comprising more than 50 percent of the
4 project total.
5 The department finds, again, under the
6 criteria for a rural village, that this is
7 consistent with the comprehensive plan; it is
8 consistent with the future land use elements,
9 specifically policy 1.1.10, 1.1.11, and 1.2.1.
10 We find, additionally, that the site plan
11 and the written description provide for internal
12 and external compatibility with surrounding
13 properties. We find the intensity of
14 development, under the rural village, is
15 appropriate at this location and are
16 recommending approval subject to the three
17 conditions in the staff report.
18 There's a change to the date of the written
19 description, which was originally January 21st,
20 but has now been changed to February 1st.
21 The conditions are:
22 "The development shall be subject to the
23 original legal description dated October 15th,
24 2010."
25 Condition 2 "The development shall be
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 subject to the revised written description dated
2 February 1st, 2011."
3 Condition 3, "The development shall be
4 subject to the original site plan dated
5 October 25th, 2010."
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
7 This is a quasi-judicial matter. Does
8 anyone have any ex-parte communication to
9 disclose?
10 MR. HOLT: Yes.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Holt.
12 MR. HOLT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
13 I met with the agent, T.R. Hainline, on
14 January 19th and we discussed the traffic flow
15 in the area and some of the amenities in working
16 with our Parks Department in order to make sure
17 that amenities were not duplicating those that
18 already exist.
19 Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Holt.
21 Any other ex-parte disclosure?
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none, we
24 have a public hearing this evening. The public
25 hearing is open. I have two speakers' cards,
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 T.R. Hainline, followed by Paul Harden.
2 (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)
3 MR. HAINLINE: T.R. Hainline, 1301
4 Riverplace Boulevard, representing ICI Villages,
5 the owner and proposed developer of this
6 property.
7 David Hoss, with ICI Villages, is here with
8 me, as is Tony Robbins, our planner with
9 Prosser Hallock.
10 As Mr. Kelly said, this was approved as a
11 rural village in 2006, and this is an amendment
12 to expand it to about 5,500 acres, which, of
13 course, is a lot of property. There's about two
14 miles of frontage on US-301 as an illustration
15 of the -- of the size of this thing.
16 We've worked very hard with your Planning
17 Department staff on a variety of issues. We had
18 a long preap process in which we amended our
19 written description and plans a good bit. And
20 after we filed, the Planning Department asked us
21 to incorporate a lot of things in several
22 different stages, and so we worked hard with
23 them to incorporate all kinds of things in this
24 large development to address the types of things
25 that you would expect us to address in a
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 development of this size, such as recreational
2 amenities. We met with the Planning
3 Department's parks people to make sure that the
4 types of amenities we're putting in -- fields,
5 et cetera -- were what are needed. The kinds of
6 design guidelines that the Planning Department
7 publishes and is on its website, we incorporated
8 those into this written description as well.
9 They wanted mixes of uses specified, mixes of
10 residential densities specified. We did all
11 that.
12 So we've worked hard with them to do those
13 things and to incorporate it into some of the
14 provisions in the mobility plan -- in the
15 upcoming mobility plan.
16 So we've worked hard to have this be
17 anticlimactic, we hope, and to have this be
18 something that years from now is going to be a
19 very good thing for the Westside and for
20
21 Toward the end of the process, we did meet
22 with our neighbor, who is the City, who is the
23 landfill operator and permittee,
24 Waste Management, as to the Trail Ridge
25 Landfill, which is at the southwest corner of
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 our site, and we agreed to insert some
2 conditions in the PUD that was requested by the
3 representatives of Waste Management, including
4 Mr. Harden.
5 And we've agreed, as a separate document,
6 as a private set of covenants and restrictions,
7 we've agreed to record some covenants and
8 restrictions. And that is also addressed in the
9 PUD at two provisions, 5.11.6 and 5.11.7. Those
10 provisions address a couple of things, which
11 I'll just summarize quickly here. One is a
12 buffer and setback from that part of our
13 boundary that adjoins the landfill site. Of
14 course, it's a large landfill site that includes
15 future expansions, but -- so we have buffers and
16 setbacks that are built in one of the
17 conditions.
18 And in another condition we agreed to
19 record covenants and restrictions which provide
20 notice and disclosure and which also require
21 our -- us and our buyers not to interfere with
22 or challenge permits for -- or challenge
23 anything having to do with the expansion of the
24 landfill.
25 We've worked all that out with Mr. Harden.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 The only thing that we would ask today in terms
2 of -- as Mr. Kelly mentioned, a February 1
3 written description. I've given to Mr. Reingold
4 some minor modifications to section 5.11.7 of
5 the written description, and what these would
6 do -- again, worked on with Mr. Harden -- is,
7 number one, they would clarify that it is the
8 applicant and owner, ICI Villages, who will be
9 recording these covenants and restrictions with
10 the disclosure in it and with the
11 noninterference provision in it.
12 And then as the other change to this
13 section, we also agreed to insert a sentence
14 which allows Waste Management, as the City's
15 landfill operator and permittee, to enforce
16 these covenants and restrictions. So that
17 sentence, which, again, Mr. Reingold has, says,
18 "The covenants and restrictions shall provide
19 that the City, the applicant" -- which is
20 us -- "and the landfill operator and/or
21 permittee shall have the right to enforce the
22 covenants and restrictions."
23 So, with that, it's our understanding that
24 we've addressed the concerns of Waste Management
25 and its representatives and be happy to answer
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 any questions before or after Mr. Harden speaks.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Hainline.
3 Any questions from -- Mr. Reingold.
4 MR. REINGOLD: I guess I -- I wouldn't mind
5 just reading into the record what Mr. Hainline
6 was talking about before Mr. Harden gets up
7 there for -- both Mr. Hainline and Mr. Harden
8 can both nod their heads, hopefully, and agree
9 that that is the exact language in the written
10 description.
11 It was being referred to in Exhibit 2,
12 page 23 of 27, buffering and screening, 5.11.7,
13 a couple of rows down, it, again, references:
14 1, "Provide notice and disclosure to
15 successors and assigns of the applicant and
16 owner that the property is located adjacent to
17 the Trail Ridge Landfill and related operations,
18 including related soil and stormwater
19 facilities."
20 And, 2, "Prohibit the applicant and owner
21 and its successors and assigns from interfering
22 with" -- and it goes on.
23 Right before the last sentence, right
24 before the sentence that starts, "The applicant
25 shall deliver" -- "the covenants and
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 restrictions shall provide that the City, the
2 applicant, and the landfill operator and/or
3 permittee shall have the right to enforce the
4 covenants and restrictions."
5 MR. HAINLINE: Yes.
6 You wanted me to nod helpfully, right?
7 MR. REINGOLD: (Nods head.)
8 MR. HAINLINE: Okay.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
10 Any other questions from the committee?
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
13 Mr. Hainline. Stand by.
14 Mr. Hainline, I'm going to send your card
15 back out to you. I need you to put the date on
16 there for me.
17 Mr. Harden.
18 (Mr. Harden approaches the podium.)
19 MR. HARDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 My name is Paul Harden. My address is
22 Waste Management and its affiliated companies,
23 including Trail Ridge Landfill, Inc.
24 I told Mr. Hainline I would not say
25 anything to denigrate his project and that is
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 not my intention, but I want it on the record --
2 a couple of -- a couple of things.
3 Two landfills in the city of
4 have been shut down with capacity. Sunbeam
5 landfill was shut down with eight years of
6 capacity left,
7 down with capacity because people moved into the
8 neighborhood after the landfills were operating
9 and there were complaints made.
10 I want it clear on the record that we,
11 Waste Management and the City of
12 intend to operate as an outparcel, as you can
13 see on their PUD, on the 950 acres, a landfill.
14 I don't suspect that the City of
15
16 landfill within the confines of
17 This landfill is bumping up against the corner
18 of
19 developed, was put as far away from any
20 development as we could.
21 Obviously, at some point, people are going
22 to move to that part of the world, but we are
23 going to move forward with the expansion on
24 behalf of the City of
25
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1 this site operating as a landfill.
2 One of the covenants and restrictions that
3 is included and referenced in 5.11.7 basically
4 says that ICI won't interfere with the operation
5 of the landfill.
6 Respectfully, they've sued us at this
7 location already on a piece that's next door,
8 and so we have reason to believe that, given
9 that opportunity, we might bump into that
10 again. We don't want to do that. We want to
11 make sure it's clear that we don't intend for
12 ICI or their successors to interfere or to take
13 any action that would stop the operation of the
14 landfill or the future permits at that location.
15 One of the things T.R. and I clarified
16 today -- and I just want to make this part of
17 the record -- that Waste Management and Trail
18 Ridge Landfill, Inc., as the operator of the
19 landfill, are entitled to enforce the covenants
20 and restrictions as well.
21 There was one other issue about potable
22 water. They're going to not put any potable
23 water within 500 feet of the property line
24 because that's a -- you can't have a landfill
25 within 500 feet of a potable water facility.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 So, again, not here to denigrate or oppose
2 their project, but we want to live in peace as
3 the next-door neighbor. We don't want to get
4 sued. We want to be able to operate the
5 facility as it's intended to be operated, and
6 it's going to be operated on that whole 954
7 acres at some point. At some point probably I
8 won't care, but the -- the plan for the City is
9 to expand to those borders and it's going to be
10 a landfill located at that location.
11 So I just want to make that clear for the
12 record. And I think the language, hopefully,
13 that we -- we've agreed to does that, but just
14 so we know the intent is to allow
15 Waste Management and [sic] enforce the
16 covenants, and the covenants are that the --
17 that ICI and its successors, as the owner of the
18 property, and the applicant won't interfere with
19 that landfill operation or future expansions of
20 the landfill operation.
21 Thank you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Harden.
23 Any questions from the committee?
24 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: How do the -- assuming that
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Tropia, Inc.,
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1 homes are built and sold -- and, Mr. Hainline,
2 you may want to come up and respond to this.
3 How do those covenants get transferred to
4 individual lots and homeowners?
5 MR. HARDEN: Yeah, well, the covenant --
6 and T.R. could answer it either way, but --
7 because he thinks he's a better transactional
8 lawyer than me probably, but --
9 The covenant has a legal description. That
10 will be recorded. And any time anybody buys a
11 piece of property, when they do the title work,
12 they'll pick up that covenant.
13 And, in addition to that, they've got --
14 it's akin to the AICUZ notification requirement
15 in there, so there's a -- there's a requirement
16 they give them notice, but the public records
17 will pick up this -- this covenant, which says
18 there's a landfill here and if you live here and
19 buy this land, you won't interfere with the
20 operation of the landfill.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You concur with that,
22 Mr. Hainline?
23 MR. HAINLINE: Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Because I know when I
25 was on the council before, in the '90s, Girvin
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1 was open when I came here and we used to get
2 constant complaints about people that bought a
3 house across
4 you know, the birds didn't recognize the
5 boundary of the landfill, so they would go and
6 pick stuff up from the landfill, and when they
7 were done with it, drop it. And that frequently
8 happened, you know, over developed property, and
9 that's -- that's a concern, so --
10 MR. HAINLINE: I guess --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: So those folks, they'll look
12 at their deed and say, "We can't complain,"
13 right?
14 MR. HAINLINE: I guess the -- the only
15 thing that I would say is that, when
16 Mr. Harden asked us to do this, ICI didn't have
17 any problem with agreeing to all this stuff, and
18 those meetings really -- I wouldn't describe
19 them as protracted or -- or, you know, long.
20 They have 5,500 acres there. That's a lot
21 of property, two miles along US-301. There's
22 plenty of room to work within that property and
23 yet still respect the use that's next door,
24 agreed to the buffers and agreed to these
25 disclosure provisions, which Paul accurately
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1 described as kind of like the AICUZ provisions
2 that will be in the covenants -- not only in
3 these covenants and restrictions but also
4 disclosures in the covenants and restrictions
5 that are recorded for the various communities as
6 they -- as they're developed.
7 So let's put it this way: There's nothing
8 more that was asked of us that we said no to or
9 anything and these are -- this is the most that
10 can be done to notify people and to bind them to
11 covenants and restrictions on their property
12 that they won't somehow interfere with the
13 landfill's operations. And, as Mr. Harden said,
14 it gives Waste Management the ability to enforce
15 that specific provision.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: But those provisions, they
17 trickle down to, like, an individual lot --
18 MR. HAINLINE: Yes, sir.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: -- that you'll sell at some
20 future --
21 MR. HAINLINE: Yes, sir, both legally and
22 in terms of what we tell them.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: I have questions from a
24 couple of the council -- committee members --
25 MR. HARDEN: Let me also clarif- --
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1 likewise, not only does Waste Management have
2 the right, but the City does too. So, I mean,
3 we have an interest, but -- but I think you have
4 an interest you should be protecting as well.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Joost.
6 MR. JOOST: Question for Mr. Harden.
7 MR. HARDEN: Yes, sir.
8 MR. JOOST: Through the Chair, aren't you
9 going from one potential litigant with ICI to
10 5,000? I mean, there's nothing in there that
11 says the residents can't sue the landfill.
12 MR. HARDEN: The -- yeah. Yes.
13 The intention is that -- ICI and its
14 assigns and successors. So somebody who bought
15 a home is an assign or a successor to ICI, and
16 these covenants are intended to bind them as
17 well.
18 Yeah, there's going to be --
19 MR. JOOST: So if I'm a resident in the
20 area -- and let's bring up Councilman
21 Crescimbeni's example -- and, you know, I've
22 got, you know, trash coming in my yard and in --
23 I've been out there, and you're right. I mean,
24 there are thousands of -- of birds out there,
25 and so --
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1 MR. HARDEN: Beautiful, aren't they?
2 MR. JOOST: Bald eagles. What did we see,
3 18 of them the day we were out there?
4 MR. HARDEN: Yeah.
5 MR. JOOST: It was incredible.
6 But, you know, that scenario happens. I
7 can't complain -- I'm not allowed to complain,
8 I'm not allowed to sue, I'm not allowed any
9 legal representation --
10 MR. HARDEN: I think you can complain. You
11 probably can't sue or interfere with our -- I
12 don't think we're saying you can't -- I
13 anticipate people are going to complain, but --
14 MR. JOOST: Now, let's say we're ten years
15 into this and this place is built out and ten
16 years later this council is -- right here, is
17 faced with 5,000 people in this chamber telling
18 us to -- to change the rules, can we do that?
19 MR. HARDEN: You know --
20 MR. JOOST: Or does that --
21 MR. HARDEN: Yeah. You might want to ask
22 your lawyer that question.
23 I -- that's what happened at Sunbeam
24 landfill, and they said, no, we're not going to
25 change the rules. We're going to shut down the
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1 landfill.
2 I don't think that's ICI's intention. It's
3 clearly not Waste Management's intention, but I
4 just want it on the record so when those 5,000
5 people can come up here -- and hopefully I'll
6 still be here and have my back to them and
7 can -- and, you know, can tell them that -- you
8 know, how that works out, I can't tell you, but
9 you ought to get your lawyers to answer that
10 question.
11 MR. JOOST: Mr. Reingold, do you have an
12 opinion?
13 MR. REINGOLD: Well, I just -- I want to
14 make it clear, in the written description it
15 talks about, so long as there have been
16 activities that are -- they're acting properly
17 in -- well, so long as such activities have been
18 or are being properly permitted and performed in
19 accordance with all applicable laws and
20 regulations.
21 Thus, essentially what is happening, as
22 long as the landfill operator and the City are
23 operating consistent with the permits, have
24 obtained all the permits, then what ICI has
25 bound the residents to do is to not sue the
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1 City for such lawful operations. If it steps
2 beyond the lawful operations, then we've sort of
3 subjected ourself potentially.
4 But in terms of the ability to change a
5 PUD, there's always the ability to rezone a
6 piece of property from PUD to PUD, but then
7 it -- you know, then you're subject to potential
8 ramifications from property owners for doing
9 such action.
10 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Chairman -- Mr. Joost.
11 MR. JOOST: Certainly.
12 MR. HAINLINE: Let me mention that -- make
13 it very clear that in addition to the PUD, the
14 PUD requires the covenants and restrictions to
15 be recorded against all of the property, which,
16 again, will bind our successors, including a
17 single-family homeowner that -- that buys within
18 there.
19 Changing the PUD doesn't change those
20 covenants and restrictions. Those covenants and
21 restrictions are still there and they are still
22 enforceable not only by the City, but by Waste
23 Management. So if ICI doesn't -- somehow
24 doesn't record covenants and restrictions
25 somewhere, ICI -- I'm sorry -- either the City
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1 or Waste Management can sue to enforce that
2 restriction on us.
3 So when someone buys a lot within that,
4 they're going to have a disclosure, first of
5 all, a notice and a disclosure telling them
6 about the landfill. And, second, they're going
7 to have these covenants and restrictions on
8 their property, which binds them, just like if
9 you buy a lot in a subdivision and it says you
10 can't hang laundry out, you -- you can't hang
11 laundry out, and it's enforceable.
12 It says -- I mean, I'll read to you from
13 the covenants and restrictions that Mr. Harden
14 and I have agreed upon.
15 "ICI covenants and restrictions
16 acknowledge and agree that ICI consents to the
17 landfill operations on the City landfill
18 property, and to that end neither ICI nor any of
19 its successors/assigns, successors in title or
20 affiliates will interfere with, file any
21 objection to, oppose, delay, or obstruct the
22 landfill operations conducted or to be conducted
23 on the City landfill property (including,
24 without limitation, any applications for permits
25 submitted by the City or any of its agencies,
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1 contractors or agents) so long as such landfill
2 operations have been or are being properly
3 permitted and performed in accordance with all
4 applicable laws and regulations governing the
5 landfill operations."
6 That provision is virtually -- oh, I'm
7 sorry, "The provisions of this" --
8 MR. HARDEN: Paragraph.
9 MR. HAINLINE: This is where I'm reading
10 Mr. Harden's writing --
11 MR. HARDEN: Let me read it to you.
12 "The provisions of this paragraph are
13 specifically enforceable by Waste Management and
14 Trail Ridge, Inc., as operator and permittee of
15 the Trail Ridge Landfill."
16 MR. HAINLINE: And that is a private
17 covenant and restriction that is on the property
18 that is enforceable, and that will -- that will
19 prevent anyone from being able to object or sue
20 or anything like that.
21 To that extent, this is much stronger than
22 any AICUZ provision that I've ever seen or any
23 disclosures in an AICUZ around an airport that
24 I've seen. This one takes the extra step.
25 And the other point I would make about that
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1 language, that language duplicates language that
2 the City and ICI already agreed to in 2009. In
3 2009, covenants and restrictions were placed on
4 a portion of this large property, not the full
5 5,000 acres but just a portion of it, that
6 contained this exact same provision. The City
7 was fine with it at the time.
8 So when Mr. Harden said, hey, I want to do
9 a provision that does this, we said, well, we
10 already have a provision over a portion of the
11 property. Why don't we just stretch it out over
12 the whole thing and make that same provision.
13 The City was fine with it then, should be fine
14 with this now, and that's what led us to this
15 particular language.
16 MR. JOOST: Okay. Just curious. You two
17 hammered out the agreement?
18 MR. HARDEN: The current one?
19 MR. JOOST: Yes, sir.
20 MR. HARDEN: Yeah, but let me give you some
21 background. T.R. just --
22 MR. JOOST: Well, I was just kind of
23 curious because doesn't the City actually own
24 the landfill? I mean, where's our attorney in
25 this meeting, to look after --
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1 MR. HARDEN: I started my conversation by
2 saying you should do your own due diligence
3 because it's -- you have the investment there.
4 MR. HAINLINE: The Planning Department --
5 in addition to Mr. Harden, who we worked with --
6 actually, before Mr. Harden contacted us, the
7 Planning Department asked us to put in both of
8 these provisions, which is 5.11.6, which is the
9 setback provision, and 5.11.7. They want -- the
10 Planning Department asked us to have -- to have
11 in our covenants and restrictions notice and
12 disclosure provisions.
13 So the Waste Management folks did take it a
14 step farther than the Planning Department did,
15 but I don't want to leave anybody with the
16 impression that -- the Planning Department, as
17 your City staff, also asked us, before we met
18 with Mr. Harden, to put in both a setback
19 provision and a notice and disclosure provision.
20 MR. JOOST: I guess, just for me, I'm --
21 I'm leery of -- it's like building homes next to
22 the airport, you know, scenario, and I'm -- what
23 do we have, 75 years left on that deal?
24 MR. HARDEN: You know, they asked me that
25 question at the -- at the Planning Commission --
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1 MR. JOOST: I'm trying to remember, but --
2 MR. HARDEN: Well -- but just so you'll
3 know, we -- we've got probably another 13 or 14
4 years --
5 MR. JOOST: I'm talking about the life of
6 the entire landfill, not --
7 (Simultaneous speaking.)
8 MR. HARDEN: That's where I'm heading with
9 you.
10 We've got probably another 13 years,
11 14 years left on the -- the current 160 --
12 whatever it is -- cell. If we expand through
13 the valley, that's probably another -- that's
14 probably 45 years, but that's only a third of
15 the property, so -- as you -- as you go out,
16 there's -- I mean, there's potential for a
17 couple hundred years. And as the base of the
18 landfill expands, you can go higher. Right now,
19 we're limited to 165 feet because the bottom --
20 Mr. Bishop can probably explain this better, but
21 the bottom of the pyramid is -- limits how high
22 you can --
23 (Simultaneous speaking.)
24 MR. JOOST: -- (inaudible) three-to-one
25 slope.
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1 MR. HARDEN: Right. As you -- right.
2 That's good. Good memory.
3 As you further go out -- so -- and -- but
4 the ICI guys know that, and we just -- I mean,
5 we wanted to clarify it for the record, that --
6 that it's going to be a landfill and it's -- we
7 want to be a good neighbor, and that's what's
8 going to be there.
9 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Joost, if I might.
10 MR. JOOST: Yes, sir.
11 MR. HAINLINE: This is, again, 5,500 acres
12 of property. It's a huge piece of property.
13 MR. HARDEN: Your piece.
14 MR. HAINLINE: Our piece is.
15 The landfill is at our southwest corner.
16 Obviously, it wouldn't be the City's position,
17 "ICI, you can't develop any of that property; we
18 have a landfill there." So then that starts the
19 discussion of, okay, what's the appropriate
20 buffer? What's the appropriate protections for
21 both the residents, who years down the road will
22 move in, and the landfill? That's what we
23 worked with, your Planning Department initially,
24 and then with Mr. Harden and Waste Management
25 folks subsequent to that.
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1 So I guess what I'm saying is this is a
2 legitimate concern. We knew it was legitimate
3 when the Planning Department raised it with us.
4 We knew it was legitimate when Mr. Harden raised
5 it with us. That's how -- that's why we've
6 responded the way we have. We've agreed to what
7 has been proposed, and so I -- I would
8 acknowledge this as a legitimate concern, but
9 what I would say is this is a very large piece
10 of property. We've put in the buffer that was
11 requested, we've put in the protections in these
12 covenants that were requested, we have dealt
13 with it in that manner, and --
14 MR. JOOST: Just one last question and I'll
15 let the other committees -- members get in.
16 Just say, okay, in a worst-case scenario,
17 if you will, where the landfill has been
18 completely expanded out, how much of a buffer
19 are we talking about, between where the nearest
20 house would be and where the actual landfill
21 starts?
22 MR. HARDEN: Two hundred feet.
23 MR. HAINLINE: That's 200 feet from -- from
24 where we have it to -- to the boundary with the
25 landfill site. On the other side --
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1 MR. JOOST: On the other side of the
2 boundary, how many more feet?
3 MR. HARDEN: On our side?
4 MR. JOOST: Yes, sir.
5 MR. HARDEN: We're going to try to permit
6 right up to the line, so that's why --
7 MR. JOOST: Yeah, but, you have to have the
8 drain field -- I mean, I did learn something
9 through the process. You have to have the drain
10 field, there's got to be some buffer between
11 where the actual landfill stops and where the
12 property line is, so --
13 MR. HARDEN: Sure. Yeah, and there would
14 be -- there would be what I'm going to say is
15 the sewer system, and that might be 20 or 25 --
16 I don't know that we'll get that -- here's the
17 only scenario where that's going to happen at
18 any time when ICI is developed and in the city,
19 if we had two hurricanes. You can fill up 30 or
20 40 years of a landfill pretty quick with a
21 hurricane.
22 You know, when Andrew went into South
23
24 were supposed to last 30 or 35 years. Unless
25 something like that happens, it's going to be
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1 75 years before we're moving over into the
2 portion of that 900 acres that bumps up against
3 them, but -- but if we needed that airspace, we
4 would want to go as close as we could to the
5 land -- in fact, that's one of the --
6 I think the only provision in the current
7 landfill regulatory provisions that would not
8 allow us to go pretty close to the -- right at
9 the border is the potable water issue, which
10 T.R. has agreed with the ICI folks that they
11 won't have within 500 feet of the property
12 line.
13 Other than that, we're going to be bumping
14 up -- you know, as you get that far down the
15 line, which -- you know, all things being equal,
16 no hurricanes, no huge boom in population, is
17 going to be 75 years or so.
18 MR. JOOST: All right. Thank you.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Joost.
20 Councilman Reggie Brown.
21 MR. R. BROWN: This is a -- through the
22 Chair, this question is actually for
23 Mr. Hainline.
24 It does not appear that -- as I listen to
25 this conversation, that we've learned from the
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1 Girvin landfill situation. When I say that, I'm
2 talking about the concerns that future residents
3 may have, and it's evident that -- I mean,
4
5 People don't have to go there. People can
6 choose to move wherever they want, but as I
7 heard, that -- eventually folks may decide to
8 reside close to the landfill. The landfill is
9 already there, then they have to deal with, I
10 guess, the conditions, the smell, the -- the
11 birds, and all the other things, and so -- I
12 don't really know whether or not we've learned
13 as a city from that situation. Are we taking
14 all of the lessons from that situation, taking
15 them into consideration?
16 My question is actually twofold -- and know
17 that there are residents somewhere along that
18 301 area that we're talking about. Did we reach
19 out and speak with the neighbors in that area?
20 MR. HAINLINE: Yeah. Mr. Brown, they --
21 we've had now multiple hearings on this. Not
22 only have we had multiple hearings; that is,
23 hearings before the council, but what I can tell
24 you is that we were asked by the Planning
25 Department to put up, I think, about 40 signs
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1 along 301 there. And I've driven by it while
2 the signs are up. There is no way anybody is
3 going to not know that something is happening on
4 that property because literally every 200 feet
5 there is a zoning sign right there, right on 301
6 along there, so -- although we did the notices,
7 put up the signs -- the last time we did this,
8
we met with the mayor of
9 everything that can be done.
10 No people who live near there anywhere have
11 come and spoken in opposition, so I -- other
12 than put up those 40 signs, which are visible to
13 the max, you know -- and the last time we went
14 through this meeting with the mayor of
15 et cetera, we -- we haven't done something like
16 that.
17 Of course, we did work with the district
18 councilman. We met with Councilman Holt when --
19 both before we filed it and then while we were
20 in the process, so we certainly worked with him,
21 and so, I mean, that's how I would address
22 that.
23 Again, I just stress, this is a very large
24 piece of property. We have agreed to everything
25 that everybody has asked us to do, so unless the
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1 City wants to say, "ICI, you can't develop your
2 5,000 acres" -- we've done what everybody has
3 asked us to do. This is what the -- both your
4 planners and the Waste Management folks have
5 said is reasonable in terms of setbacks and
6 restrictions on us from complaining. We have to
7 assume that reasonable, intelligent people have
8 told us what to do, and we've agree to do it.
9 So on that basis, I would ask you to approve
10 this.
11 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Last question,
12 through the Chair to Mr. Hainline, you mentioned
13 that you spoke with the mayor of
14 we -- did you speak with this administration,
15 and also did we speak with the council? Because
16 a future -- possibilities of lawsuits. Anybody
17 can file, going from one to what I heard, 5,000,
18 and basically we have to do due diligence in
19 terms of protecting the city, and just not the
20 city, this council, our -- you know, what we do
21 today and how it's going to impact 10, 15 years
22 from now. I think we have an obligation to do
23 that. And I did hear you say that you spoke
24 with the mayor of
25 MR. HAINLINE: Sometime ago, yes, sir.
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1 MR. R. BROWN: Yeah, and that's very
2 important. Have we consulted with this
3 administration to get their position on it as
4 well as our counsel?
5 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Brown, we did that
6 through our meetings with your Planning
7 Department and through the folks that it
8 referred us to, which included Parks and
9 Transportation and other people. We did that.
10 I have talked to Dylan about these provisions
11 and -- in the PUD, and how they read and what
12 they should say, and he's aware of the covenants
13 and restrictions that we're recording.
14 So we talked to everybody that the
15 administration -- including the planning
16 director, who is sitting down here. We met with
17 the Planning Department, who works for the
18 mayor. So we have talked with the
19 administration's representatives that we need to
20 deal with as people applying for a rezoning.
21 We've talked with your general counsel. And,
22 again, we've done everything that everybody has
23 asked us to do. There's not something that
24 somebody said please do and we said no, so --
25 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. Last question. This
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1 question is for Mr. Dylan.
2 Your position, General Counsel, regarding
3 the lawsuits. I do hear very clear that
4 everyone that's in this particular situation has
5 representation, you know, regarding an
6 attorney. I haven't heard the position of our
7 attorneys regarding this situation. What's our
8 position?
9 MR. REINGOLD: Thank you very much,
10 Councilmember Brown.
11 Through the Chair to Councilmember Brown, I
12 think the issue -- and Mr. Joost also sort of
13 raised it also -- is to step back and consider
14 what we're actually looking at today, and what
15 we've got before us today is a request for a
16 rezoning of property, and the request is for
17 roughly 5,000 acres for a variety of types of
18 uses. Mr. Hainline, I'm sure, and the Planning
19 Department could explain those types of uses
20 much better than I could, but the context of
21 which we're looking at -- what we're looking at
22 is very important.
23 I know there's an issue of, well, citizens
24 suing the City, citizens suing the landfills,
25 lawsuits between different parties. This is a
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1 question of whether the use that Mr. Hainline is
2 offering or proposing, is that consistent with
3 the area, is that consistent with it being next
4 to a landfill and all other types of uses? And
5 if it is or isn't, is there some way to mitigate
6 for whatever impacts we're concerned about?
7 And the offer that Mr. Hainline has
8 provided is I'm willing to put in some buffers
9 and I'm willing to provide notice to the
10 individuals on who will be buying property in
11 our area of these concerns that may exist.
12 The question for the council is, is that
13 sufficient for you? And if it is, then, you
14 know, you would obviously vote for the PUD in
15 the condition that it's in or the format that
16 it's in. If it is not sufficient, you can
17 certainly say, I want the Planning and
18 Development Department staff and the Office of
19 General Counsel to work with the applicants to
20 come up with better buffers or you can come up
21 with them here, say, I want the buffer to be
22 extended not 200 feet, but 300 feet, and -- but
23 that's sort of the context of what we're talking
24 about today instead of just looking at, have we
25 reviewed the agreements, have -- you know, are
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1 we comfortable with whatever covenants, because
2 those issues, at the end of the day, are really
3 private party agreements between ICI and the
4 neighboring Trail Ridge Landfill.
5 MR. R. BROWN: Okay. If I could -- just to
6 respond to that. Fast forward 20 years from
7 now, we're gone. Five thousand people show up.
8 What are the options that this body will have in
9 response to those 5,000 if they come down and
10 want to petition to stop any more dumping at
11 those -- at the landfill site? What would --
12 what options would we have?
13 MR. JOOST: (Inaudible.)
14 MR. R. BROWN: Right.
15 MR. REINGOLD: Well, I would have to look
16 at our agreement with Trail Ridge and figure out
17 what our obligations are in terms of what we're
18 allowing them to do and not allowing them to do,
19 but certainly considering the future -- and you
20 do this with all rezonings, with potential
21 future property owners. The thought for this
22 committee today is, how do we buffer against
23 that? How do we mitigate against that? And if
24 you don't think you can, then, you know, you can
25 certainly vote a denial or certainly vote for
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1 some additional conditions.
2 So in terms of how do we prevent those
3 5,000 people from showing up, the question that
4 you need to ask yourself is, is the buffering
5 that has been raised or the mitigating factors
6 that have been raised by Mr. Hainline, are those
7 sufficient to alleviate your concerns? If not,
8 then what -- what way that we can either to
9 mitigate it, or if you don't feel you can, then
10 you need to vote denial.
11 MR. R. BROWN: Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
13 I know you have to -- you have another
14 commitment this evening, so whenever you need to
15 leave, just feel free. And if you hear me say
16 that it's going to be a short meeting in the
17 future, just lean over and push that button off,
18 will you?
19 Mr. Holt.
20 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
21 Through the Chair to Councilmember Brown,
22 just to kind of alleviate some of your fears
23 there, we've discussed the buffering that
24 we're -- was committed to by both sides there,
25 but I would also point out -- I'm looking at an
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1 aerial right now that -- north of the landfill
2 property, an extensive amount of wetlands that
3 they will not be building on.
4 So, in reality, they will be -- they will
5 end up being more -- much more than -- the
6 closest homes would end up being much more than
7 200 feet from the property line. I can't give
8 you an amount here, but I'm just looking at a
9 strip of wetlands across the north end here that
10 no one could build on.
11 Thank you.
12 MR. R. BROWN: If I could just respond to
13 that. The areas -- I'm sure, a similar nature,
14 Girvin, and also the -- Trail Ridge. And I'm
15 sure they had similar conversations, I'd like to
16 believe, so there were buffers set up at Girvin
17 as well, but we still have some of the same
18 concerns because we can't control -- my
19 understanding, we can't control the birds that
20 pick the garbage up and fly out, and so --
21 I hear and respect your position, but the
22 concern is still there. And it's really more
23 so -- as I stated earlier, just fast forwarding,
24 what I don't want is, you know, for those that's
25 going to be here in this position to have a room
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1 full of folks and they're looking at the work
2 that we did today as bad work and we should have
3 known better because we -- we have a situation
4 that's before us right now,
5 saw what happened with it. And it's crystal
6 clear that the intent is to fill this landfill.
7 That -- that's just my concern because --
8 and I agree, people can choose to live wherever
9 they want, but -- and this is why -- my question
10 to you was, you know, could we defend this? You
11 know, could we say, okay, enough is enough. We
12 have 5,000 folks out here, they're against it,
13 or will we have to look as elected officials --
14 look at those 5,000 and say, well, if you vote
15 against it -- if you don't do it, then you're
16 out of here.
17 I mean, you know, these are real scenarios
18 that could occur, so that's why I'm looking to
19 you, Dylan, for some -- for some guidance.
20 MR. HAINLINE: Mr. Chairman, if I may.
21 These restrictions that have been placed on
22 us, which will be binding -- which are binding
23 on us and are going to be binding on our buyers
24 are the strongest that can be put on there. And
25 we're saying -- we're not saying we'll just put
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1 it around the landfill, by the way. We're going
2 to put these restrictions on the entire 5,000
3 acres. I mean, that came up. Are you just
4 going to put them right around the landfill or
5 the entire -- we said, we're fine, put them on
6 the entire 5,000 acres.
7 These are the strongest restrictions that
8 you can put on us. The buffer is exactly what
9 was asked of us, so we said yes to that.
10 Now, if people come and complain -- I know
11 people can complain about anything, believe me,
12 but if they -- but if they come and complain,
13 they are coming and complaining in violation of
14 a covenant and restriction really and they are
15 complaining despite both notice and disclosure
16 to them in the most aggressive ways is what's
17 provided in these covenants and restrictions.
18 This is more aggressive than is around the
19 airports. It's more aggressive than is around
20 any of the landfills currently. So this is the
21 most aggressive thing that can be done.
22 An alternative, of course, is to buy a
23 thousand acres from ICI or whatever so you know
24 you have a big buffer where nobody's going to
25 live, but no one has proposed that and no one
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1 has said that that's necessary.
2 What people have said is necessary are
3 these restrictions binding on us and our buyers
4 and the buffer, and that's what we've agreed
5 to. So the most that can be put on this
6 property in terms of restricting the future
7 complaining of those neighbors is what we've
8 agreed to. Nobody has suggested something
9 stronger because I -- I'm not aware of anything
10 stronger, so I -- that's all I can say.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Hainline.
12 Anything else?
13 MR. R. BROWN: No.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Brown.
15 Mr. Bishop.
16 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 Just a couple of quick questions to kind of
18 put things in perspective as I see it, and this
19 may be a question for Mr. Reingold.
20 Are there any disclosure covenants on any
21 of the property right now that's in this subject
22 area?
23 MR. REINGOLD: To Councilmember Bishop,
24 there actually is a declaration of covenants and
25 restrictions between ICI Villages, LLC, and the
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1 City of
2 MR. HAINLINE: It's --
3 MR. BISHOP: What does it say?
4 MR. HAINLINE: It's at the southern end.
5 It says the same thing as this, but it's
6 only on pieces of two sections of the property
7 at the southern end. It's due to previous
8 negotiations in 2009. We put covenants and
9 restrictions on there. That's a small piece
10 that's down right near the landfill and that
11 landfill road, but what we're saying is we'll
12 put that same restriction on all 5,000 acres.
13 MR. BISHOP: I understand.
14 So, at the moment, if this -- if this
15 proposal did not go through, then the property
16 has some ability to have building by right on it
17 as it is and a lot of that property has no
18 disclosure requirements at the moment at all?
19 MR. HAINLINE: Right.
20 MR. BISHOP: This adds that as another
21 layer of --
22 MR. HAINLINE: Yes, sir.
23 MR. BISHOP: -- notification --
24 MR. HAINLINE: Yes, sir.
25 MR. BISHOP: -- as you will.
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1 From a practical perspective, how close is
2 the closest house going to get to the landfill
3 property?
4 MR. HAINLINE: To the property, from a
5 practical perspective -- I mean, the restriction
6 that's put on is 200 feet. I'm sure there's
7 some wetlands that would push it a little
8 further back. Exactly what that might be, I --
9 I can't tell you whether that's -- I can't give
10 you an exact number of that, but there's a
11 minimum of 200 feet, which is what was asked of
12 us --
13 MR. BISHOP: Okay.
14 MR. HAINLINE: -- on our side.
15 MR. BISHOP: Well, I understand
16 Mr. Harden's concern here. They have an
17 existing landfill operation and they don't want
18 to hear about it down the road, but the point is
19 this is a huge piece of property, folks, and
20 there's a lot of land out there and some of it's
21 a mile, two miles away from the landfill.
22 We're hearing that it's going to be
23 generations before the landfill even gets close
24 to this. I would personally venture to say
25 we're never going to fill that thing up. Who
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1 knows what's going to happen 75 years from now.
2 If we're still dumping stuff in the landfill,
3 we've got other issues than this particular
4 issue we're going on right now.
5 That's just an editorial comment on my
6 part, but I think that -- that this particular
7 proposal makes sense to me because we -- this is
8 a massive piece of property. It is a massive
9 development. It's going to take probably 25 to
10 30 years before it gets built out. I'm sure ICI
11 would like to do it sooner than that, but I
12 would venture to say that's probably realistic
13 and we're talking about, you know, two
14 generations before the landfill even gets close
15 to that.
16 So I think that -- you know, this --
17 actually what this does, to me, is it gives a
18 level of protection to some of this property
19 that it doesn't currently have, so -- I mean, I
20 intend to vote for it when it gets to the --
21 gets to the vote at this point, assuming that it
22 does, and I would just consider that -- let's
23 take a step back and understand what's really
24 going on here. And, to me, it makes sense.
25 Thank you.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
2 Councilman Dick Brown.
3 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 Let me echo --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: We're still in the public
6 hearing now too, so --
7 MR. D. BROWN: The --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: We're in the public hearing,
9 so -- do you have questions for the --
10 MR. D. BROWN: No. I just want to
11 discuss -- like he did.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I put you on hold?
13 MR. D. BROWN: Yeah.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman, do you have --
15 MR. D. BROWN: Come back to me.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: -- any more questions for
17 the --
18 MR. REDMAN: No questions.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anyone else care to
20 address the committee?
21 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
23 the public hearing is closed.
24 Mr. Brown.
25 MR. D. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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1 Appreciate it.
2 I, too, would like to put this a little
3 more in perspective. First of all, with our
4 current economy, it's pretty exciting to even
5 have somebody come before you and ask to start
6 taking the first steps of a development, but,
7 again, Mr. Bishop said it quite well. Imagine
8 5,000 acres, and a wise developer is not going
9 to rush down to the south end of the property
10 and try to build something in the shadow of a
11 landfill. There's plenty of buffer out there
12 for that and all the steps are in place.
13 You mentioned it's generations before we --
14 we see it built out, and the marketing team with
15 somebody as big as ICI is going to take all of
16 this into consideration. There's not going to
17 be the type of thing that -- there's houses in
18 the shadow of a landfill. That's just unheard
19 of, that they would even think of doing that.
20 I support the project and I think it's a --
21 with 5,000 acres, you could build a little city
22 and still not see the landfill. It sounds like
23 a good one.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
25 Mr. Redman.
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1 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 As Mr. Bishop and Mr. Brown have said,
3 we've got over 55,000 [sic] acres here, that --
4 it will be a shame to tell somebody they can't
5 do anything with 55,000 acres because there's a
6 landfill. That -- and, you know, anybody moving
7 out in that area would know that the landfill is
8 there. And with the restrictions and the -- the
9 things that have been put in this to protect the
10 developer and anybody that might move in there,
11 I -- I would have to, you know, support it and
12 think that, you know, more power to them.
13 Somebody that would go and develop it and -- and
14 hope to, you know, get somebody out there,
15 that's great.
16 Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Redman.
18 Mr. Joost.
19 MR. JOOST: Thank you.
20 Through the Chair, just to engage my good
21 colleague Mr. Bishop down there, because you --
22 you're an architect. Wouldn't we at least be
23 smart to know exactly what the footage is, where
24 the nearest house could be next to the
25 landfill?
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1 And then what I was thinking -- I mean, I
2 agree, okay, the number one issue of the economy
3 is jobs, you know, and we don't want to prevent
4 that. Wouldn't we be smarter to say, okay, just
5 on that southwest end, because it's -- it's
6 mixed use, to say, okay, that would be your
7 commercial area, to provide even more buffer
8 before you even got to the residential?
9 MR. BISHOP: Through the Chair to
10 Mr. Joost, it's a good point. As far as --
11 again -- and it's -- in theory, yeah, that makes
12 a lot of sense. You want to buffer as much as
13 you can away from the landfill the residential
14 portion of this because that's where people
15 live.
16 The site plan that we see as a part of the
17 application -- and I'll maybe pull Mr. Reingold
18 into this -- is pretty generic. There's really
19 not a whole lot of specificity to it.
20 Is this the -- is this the final end game?
21 Because at some point they're going to have to
22 do engineering drawings to show exactly what
23 they're going to build. You know, I --
24 Mr. Joost, you have a good point. Now, how
25 we would address something like that at this
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1 point without potentially opening up a whole can
2 of worms as far as site plan design? I don't
3 know at this point.
4 This is -- this is a huge project and it
5 isn't fully designed from the standpoint of
6 exactly where everything is going to go. I
7 don't know how fast ICI wants to move forward on
8 this, but it does strike me that they're
9 probably -- I don't know where they're going to
10 build the first phase of this thing, but I would
11 suspect it's probably not right next to Trail
12 Ridge, and so there's a lot of time to figure
13 out how that's going to go. Any number of
14 things can happen between now and the time when
15 it does get built.
16 But to answer -- more specifically answer
17 your question, you're right, the commercial
18 ought to be -- there's something to provide some
19 more buffer, at least at the closest place would
20 be a -- probably be a good idea.
21 MR. JOOST: Yeah. Just the -- the hat I'm
22 wearing right now is, this is our landfill, the
23 City's, you know, and we need to protect it
24 because it's going to be around long after we're
25 gone, long after they're gone. And 50 years
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1 from now, where are we, you know, because we
2 didn't provide adequate protections?
3 And, you know, the huge fight we've had
4 over this thing -- I mean, it's the only class 3
5 landfill we have. And so, you know, that --
6 that's my concern. If there's a way to make the
7 plan better, then we ought to do it versus,
8 like, okay, the here and now is about jobs, you
9 know, and I get that, you know. And, trust me,
10 I want 50 -- you know, I want 5,000 more, you
11 know, sub-eating customers moving to
12
13 But, now, I'm wearing my City Hall hat. I
14 want to protect that asset, and I don't know --
15 I guess my dilemma is, at this point, I don't
16 know how many feet away from the landfill we're
17 talking about. Can we make it better? Because
18 it's going to be mixed use. You know, can we
19 put, you know, commercial down there, you know,
20 then have maybe some parks and -- and bicycle
21 paths and then we finally get to the
22 residential? You know, I -- that's where my
23 head is at this point.
24 MR. D. BROWN: I'll call the question.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I have to -- are you
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1 finished, Mr. Joost?
2 (Simultaneous speaking.)
3 MR. JOOST: I'll just ask --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: -- (inaudible) asking
5 Mr. Bishop, okay.
6 MR. BISHOP: Through the Chair to
7 Mr. Joost -- and then I -- I guess the -- the
8 question becomes, is there a state-of-the-art
9 best practice, whatever you want to call it,
10 that one would place other uses or residential
11 uses or commercial uses away from a landfill?
12 Is there some sort of industry standard out
13 there? And if there is, we probably ought to --
14 it might be good to know what that is. How does
15 this project stack up to that? Because what I
16 don't want to see us --
17 I understand exactly what you're saying.
18 This is the city's landfill, and it, for all
19 practical purposes, is going to be ours for a
20 hundred years or however long it's going to be.
21 We want to make sure it's compatible with a --
22 whatever else is going around it is compatible.
23 That's a very good point.
24 But, by the same token, I don't think we
25 want to hold up potential development on 5,500
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1 acres, the entire thing. That's not something I
2 think we want to do either.
3 There is a point at which we're in the safe
4 zone. What is that safe zone, does anybody
5 know? And maybe I'll ask Mr. Hainline, do you
6 know? Is there any sort of -- you've lived this
7 for quite sometime now. Is there some sort of,
8 quote-unquote, safe zone over which it's
9 generally considered not an issue anymore?
10 MR. HAINLINE: First of all, in terms of
11 plan review, certainly for each village, each
12 phase of this project, we need to get site plan
13 review for that aspect. There's no question
14 there will be site plan review as the villages
15 advance back from 301 back, both north, away
16 from the landfill, and south towards --
17 southwest towards the landfill. So we have to
18 get site plan review. That's number one.
19 Number two, when we talked about setbacks
20 from the landfill, which was brought up, I mean,
21 the discussion went -- went smoothly in the
22 sense that what was asked of us was a 200-foot
23 setback, and that's what we agreed to.
24 Now, there was some discussion, looking at
25 what our design criteria -- the Planning
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1 Department -- and I was aware of them anyway --
2 mentioned setbacks from heavy industrial uses,
3 for example, which can be very intensive, noisy,
4 sometimes, you know, fumes and stuff uses. And
5 currently the Planning Department's design
6 guidelines from that, I think, go anywhere from
7 100 feet to 250 feet. Those are the various
8 buffers you can choose from. So that is a kind
9 of guideline.
10 There's no regulatory setback. Again, what
11 was suggested by both the City and the Waste
12 Management folks were 200 feet, and that's what
13 we agreed to.
14 Certainly when we go in to submit site
15 plans for the villages as they get closer to the
16 landfill, we anticipate that the City will be
17 reviewing our site plan for compatibility with
18 the landfill, and what will likely -- this is
19 now practical terms -- what will likely go back
20 near there is not a commercial use because,
21 frankly, Mr. Joost, that's back in the southwest
22 corner. But what will likely go back there are
23 recreational uses, specifically a golf course.
24 It is planned to have at least one, maybe
25 multiple golf courses on this -- in this
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1 community, and so golf courses would be a good
2 thing to provide a buffer or a setback from that
3 landfill site.
4 We do anticipate, when we go in for site
5 planning with the Planning Department, that the
6 Planning Department is going to look at these
7 compatibility issues based on the science and
8 the facts that are known at that time.
9 So, you know, that's the reality of it. If
10 you-all wish to add a sentence that says, site
11 plans that are in closest proximity to the
12 landfill will be reviewed for compatibility with
13 the landfill, I'm happy to agree to such a
14 condition because that's what we expect the
15 reality is.
16 MR. BISHOP: That sounds good to me.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
18 Mr. Joost.
19 Mr. Bishop, you were on the queue --
20 MR. BISHOP: (Shakes head.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Nothing? Okay.
22 All right. Mr. Brown, you -- we can't call
23 the question because we don't have anything
24 before us, so would somebody like to offer a
25 motion on the amendment, which would --
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1 MR. D. BROWN: Move the amendment.
2 MR. JOOST: Second.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Motion on the
4 amendment by Mr. Brown, second by Mr. Joost.
5 Mr. Reingold, do you have all the
6 provisions for the amendment?
7 MR. REINGOLD: All I have right now is that
8 the amendment essentially is that the -- is that
9 the development would be subject to -- I'm
10 trying to find -- the revised written
11 description dated February 1st, 2011. That's
12 the only change from the current format which
13 the bill is drafted.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have a copy of that
15 written description?
16 MR. REINGOLD: I've got a copy of the
17 written description -- it essentially is what's
18 in your book -- and the handwritten one, which
19 is sitting in front of me. I'll use a better
20 copy tomorrow with it actually typed in.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
22 We have a motion and a second.
23 Mr. Holt.
24 MR. HOLT: Thank you.
25 Through the Chair, Mr. Hainline, could you
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1 come back up?
2 (Mr. Hainline approaches the podium.)
3 MR. HOLT: I would like to wrap that
4 amendment that you just mentioned into our
5 amendment, requiring, as you said, site review
6 for those homes closest to the -- to the
7 landfill site, to the southwest corner.
8 MR. HAINLINE: I mean, I can -- and if -- I
9 can certainly write it out, but the sentence
10 that I think I said before -- and it could be
11 added as section 5.11.8 in the written
12 description, which I'm happy to do, and send to
13 Dylan tomorrow.
14 But the sentence would be, the site plans
15 for the villages, slash, phases, which are in
16 closest proximity to the Trail Ridge Landfill
17 shall be reviewed by the Planning and
18 Development Department for compatibility with
19 the landfill.
20 MR. HOLT: I'm happy with that and -- and
21 I'm sure will give everybody a little more
22 comfort.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
24 MR. REINGOLD: Now, my question for the
25 commission -- I'm sorry, for the committee is,
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1 is this going to be a condition to the ordinance
2 or is this a modification of the written
3 description?
4 MR. HAINLINE: I'd like to ask that we
5 write it into the written description and send
6 it to Dylan tomorrow, please.
7 MR. HOLT: Yeah, that would be fine. That
8 is with the spirit of my amendment.
9 MR. REINGOLD: All right. Then I'm going
10 to ask for the patience of the committee because
11 I want to make sure I write this down because --
12 usually what we do with conditions is we wait
13 till the transcript comes out, but if this is
14 truly the written description that is coming out
15 tonight, I want to make sure I've got all the
16 wording right.
17 But I've got a question, if I may, through
18 the Chair to Mr. Hainline. I believe the phrase
19 was for those phases in the closest proximity of
20 the landfill. I'm just trying to figure out
21 what that means. Do we have a distance we want
22 to work with? Do we have certain phases
23 that are identified in the site plan that we
24 want to utilize?
25 MR. HAINLINE: It's basically the ones that
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1 are abutting the landfill, Dylan, that I can
2 see. I mean, again, this thing is going to be
3 carved up into phases or units and --
4 (Mr. Killingsworth confers with
5 Mr. Hainline.)
6 MR. HAINLINE: Any phase that touches the
7 200-foot buffer. We're happy to do that.
8 Good suggestion from your planning
9 director.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Any phase that's contiguous
11 to the 200-foot buffer?
12 MR. HAINLINE: Site plans for any
13 villages/phases which abut the 200-foot setback
14 from the landfill shall be reviewed by the
15 Planning and Development Department for
16 compatibility with --
17 (Mr. Killingsworth approaches the podium.)
18 MR. HAINLINE: -- uh-oh, here comes the
19 planning director again -- from the landfill
20 site shall be reviewed by the Planning and
21 Development Department for compatibility with
22 the landfill.
23 Do you want me to read that again?
24 MR. REINGOLD: (Nods head.)
25 MR. HAINLINE: Site plans for any villages,
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1 slash, phases which abut the 200-foot setback
2 from the landfill site shall be reviewed by the
3 Planning and Development Department for
4 compatibility with the landfill.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold, do you have
6 that?
7 MR. HAINLINE: That would be -- I'm going
8 to insert that as 5.11.8 and send it to you
9 tomorrow, Dylan.
10 MR. D. BROWN: I second the Holt amendment.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, we -- that's
12 just one amendment. I forgot who moved it.
13 We're just going to roll it all into -- roll it
14 all into one.
15 Mr. Harden, do you have any objections
16 to -- you haven't been able to comment on this,
17 so --
18 MR. HARDEN: Do I have any objections to
19 what?
20 THE CHAIRMAN: This latest revision to
21 this -- to the amendments, to the written
22 description that you worked out previously.
23 MR. HARDEN: Oh, no. If you -- whatever
24 reviews you want to do is up to you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
Diane M.
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1 All right. Motion and a second on the
2 amendment.
3 Mr. Reingold, you'll get that from
4 Mr. Hainline tomorrow. If there's any questions
5 about that, let the Chair know. We can always
6 bring this back to committee.
7 All those in favor of the amendment, say
8 yes.
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed, say no.
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
13 adopted the amendment.
14 MR. HOLT: Move the bill as amended.
15 MR. JOOST: Second.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the bill as
17 amended by Councilman Holt, second by
18 Councilman Joost.
19 Discussion?
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, open the
22 ballot, vote.
23 (Committee ballot opened.)
24 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
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1 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. R. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
6 (Committee ballot closed.)
7 MS. LAHMEUR: Seven yeas, zero nay.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you have
9 approved item 6, 2010-874, as amended.
10 Thank you, Mr. Brown, for staying.
11 (Mr. R. Brown exits the proceedings.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Bottom of the
13 page, page 3, item 7, 2010-893.
14 Mr. Kelly.
15 MR. KELLY: Thank you.
16 To the Chair, to Committee members,
17 ordinance 2010-893 is a request for a sign
18 waiver to allow for internal illumination of a
19 sign for a church along the Wonderwood/McCormick
20 Road Expressway [sic]. The sign would be for a
21 church,
22 The zoning of the property is currently RLD-90.
23 And, as such, the internal illumination is via
24 the sign waiver.
25 The department reviewed this for
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1 consistency with the waiver criteria, in
2 addition, reviewed for consistency against the
3 Wonderwood Connector corridor and land
4 use/zoning study.
5 The department finds that this sign, again,
6 would remove an existing nonconforming sign and
7 the proposed new sign would have a conforming
8 setback. The size and scale of the sign is a
9 monument sign that we feel is compatible and --
10 compatible to the contiguous signage in the area
11 and would not negatively alter the aesthetic
12 character of the area or be a detriment to any
13 vehicular traffic or sight distance in relation
14 to the views from the corridor.
15 The department finds, again, that this is
16 an acceptable waiver in this instance and is
17 recommending approval.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
19 The current zoning is what?
20 MR. KELLY: It's RLD-90.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
22 This is a quasi-judicial matter. Does
23 anyone have any ex-parte communication to
24 disclose?
25 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
2 we have a public hearing scheduled this
3 evening. The public hearing is open, and I have
4 one speaker's card,
5 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
6 AUDIENCE MEMBER:
7 Road,
8 I am the agent for the applicant, and with
9 the -- what Mr. Kelly identified and in trying
10 to help you make up a little lost time from the
11 past agenda item, I will just make myself
12 available for questions if you have any.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
14 Any questions from the committee?
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grimm, do you know what
17 type of sign they intend to install?
18 MR. GRIMM: Yes. It's a sign that's --
19 it's internally illuminated. It has an acrylic
20 exterior to it with fluorescent bulbs on the
21 interior and then there's a message center below
22 that that's also electronic.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it a digital message
24 center?
25 MR. GRIMM: It's a -- well, electronic
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1 mess- -- when you say "digital," I don't know --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Changeable message.
3 MR. GRIMM: Programmable from within the
4 office, but it's not a moving message.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that permitted in RLD,
6 through the Chair?
7 MR. KELLY: The department has opined on
8 this in the past with other assembly
9 institutional uses, that the waiver for the
10 internal illumination would also essentially
11 cover a static changing message.
12 My understanding was, in this instance, it
13 was a manually-changed letter board, but this is
14 new information.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: You're understanding was it
16 was a manually-changing reader board?
17 MR. KELLY: Correct.
18 I believe in -- even in the staff report,
19 the staff member indicated that it was a
20 manually-changed message, changing message.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Questions from the
22 committee?
23 Mr. Joost, then Mr. Bishop.
24 MR. JOOST: Through the Chair to
25 Mr. Reingold, refresh my memory. Wasn't there a
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1 church out in Mandarin where we gave them an
2 electronic sign board or no, last year?
3 MR. KELLY: Yes, that's correct.
4 MR. JOOST: What were the conditions on
5 that? Because it seems like this may be a
6 similar situation.
7 MR. KELLY: I think there was -- I'm not
8 sure if it was related to the frequency, but I
9 thought -- I'd have to get a refresher on that.
10 I think it might have had to do with the hours,
11 also, of operation, that it was shut off after a
12 certain point at night. That was in Mandarin,
13 on
14 MR. JOOST: Yeah, and even -- who's the
15 fellow that used to work for the City? And he
16 showed up on that one.
17 MR. CROFTS: Tracey Arpen.
18 MR. KELLY: Tracey Arpen.
19 MR. JOOST: Yeah, Mr. Tracey Arpen spoke up
20 on that and was satisfied with those conditions,
21 so that may be a model --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't recall Mr. Arpen
23 being satisfied. I think he was objecting to
24 that, but I'll go back and check.
25 Mr. Kelly, can you look into that for us?
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1 And, Mr. Bishop, the Chair is inclined to
2 defer this bill.
3 MR. BISHOP: That's fine.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We're going to -- any
5 other questions before --
6 MR. JOOST: I thought he was happy. I
7 don't know.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't -- I'd be
9 surprised. I recall him being here in objection
10 to that, but my memory isn't as good as it used
11 to be, so --
12 MR. JOOST: Mine either.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop.
14 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 I do have a -- I do have a question for
16 Mr. Kelly.
17 Mr. Kelly, you stated earlier you had
18 thought that the staff report was based on what
19 you thought was a manually-changed message
20 sign. Do you think the staff report would be
21 any different if you knew that it was an
22 electronic message board? Which is, in fact,
23 what the application calls for.
24 MR. KELLY: Well, I think if it was an
25 electronic message board, we would have probably
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1 imposed similar conditions to the
2 waiver -- sign waiver, to be consistent with,
3 you know, our past opinions. I think -- I think
4 that dealt with the dwell time as well as the --
5 we weren't regulating content, but I think it
6 was more specific to the hours that the message
7 could be seen, hours of operation.
8 MR. BISHOP: Okay.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
10 Mr. Grimm, are you being compensated for
11 your representation of the church?
12 MR. GRIMM: No.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you a church member?
14 MR. GRIMM: I am a church member and this
15 is gratis.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you have a problem
17 with this being deferred so we can look at
18 this?
19 MR. GRIMM: No. That would be fine.
20 Could I make a couple of comments?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
22 MR. GRIMM: There's a church on Heckscher
23 Drive as well that has an electronic message
24 center, which is where the idea came from. And
25 we looked at that zoning, which is -- they have
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1 a split zoning. Part of it is commercial, part
2 of it's residential, but the sign is on the
3 residential zoning, on
4 And just for a point of clarification --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: You're not trying to get
6 them in trouble, are you?
7 MR. GRIMM: Just to make sure I'm not in
8 trouble here.
9 The application did have "electronic
10 message center" in it. I did get a phone call
11 for clarification from one of the planners, and
12 I did identify that it was electronic, it was
13 going to be changed by a computer from inside
14 the office. He asked what color the light was,
15 which I responded amber. And so I apologize if
16 there's any confusion here. I thought it was
17 clear.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll get it straightened
19 out, and we -- by the time we convene again in
20 two weeks, so I apologize for that, but I
21 appreciate your cooperation.
22 So we're going to continue the public
23 hearing until --
24 MR. REINGOLD: (Indicating.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
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1 He's got his hand up; that's always a bad
2 sign.
3 MR. REINGOLD: No, I hope it's not a bad
4 sign, sir.
5 I'm looking at a sign waiver that was
6 approved, sign waiver 09-09, for a sign,
8 Presbyterian Church. It had a condition on it.
9 I just -- I wasn't sure if this was the issue
10 the committee was talking about, but there was
11 an amendment that said that the sign shall
12 provide -- it was approved subject to the
13 following condition: The sign shall provide a
14 static message only and may not change more than
15 once every ten minutes.
16 I'm not sure if this was one of the
17 conditions that the Planning Department was
18 talking about or if this was the site the
19 Planning Department was talking about.
20 MR. KELLY: Folks was kind enough to find
21 the ordinance on Loretto, and specifically that
22 waiver was conditioned with five conditions.
23 It said, the sign, other than the
24 electronic message component, shall be
25 externally illuminated. It said, the LED
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1 component shall display only static messages,
2 which messages shall change no more frequently
3 than once every three minutes. At the time,
4 that was the department's position as it related
5 to dwell time.
6 Condition 3 was the messages shall change
7 and be displayed without the use of scrolling,
8 rotating, zooming, flashing or any other form of
9 animation.
10 And the fourth condition was the LED
11 component shall use only amber lights, which, I
12 think, is the identical proposal here.
13 Additionally, the LED component shall not
14 be illuminated between the hours of 9 p.m. and
15 6 a.m.
16 Those were the conditions for the Loretto
17 Road --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: The Chair is inclined to
19 defer so that --
20 (Inaudible discussion.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah.
22 If you're okay with that, Mr. Grimm, we'll
23 take it up in two weeks. That will be the 15th
24 of February. We'll continue the public hearing
25 until the 15th, so you'll have an opportunity to
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1 come back and address the committee, and then
2 you may want to get with Mr. Kelly and we'll --
3 we'll get it sorted out.
4 MR. GRIMM: All right. Thank you.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
6 Sorry you had to sit through all this for
7 nothing.
8 All right. So no further action on that
9 bill.
10 Turning to page 4, at the top, item
11 2010-900 is deferred.
12 Item 9, 2010-901, we will take up.
13 Mr. Barton, are you still here?
14 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Paul, are you taking over?
16 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. This was approved --
18 a second rule substitute was approved yesterday
19 in Rules.
20 (Mr. Crawford approaches the podium.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: If you can just give us a
22 quick recap.
23 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, sir. This is a bill
24 addressing the blighted condition --
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Name and address.
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1 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, sir.
2 Paul Crawford,
3 downtown
4 This is a bill that addresses the blighted
5 condition of some of our downtown parking lots.
6 I've spoken to many of you about it. It
7 reflects the need to invest in our downtown. It
8 reflects the need to increase property values
9 and address some of the aesthetic issues in
10 downtown.
11 I can get into details or I can --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Does the -- any committee
13 members have any questions?
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we're pretty well
16 versed on it.
17 All right. Thank you, Mr. Crawford.
18 Stand by.
19 We do have a public hearing scheduled this
20 evening on this bill. The public hearing is
21 open. I have no speaker cards.
22 Anyone care to address the committee?
23 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no one, the public
25 hearing is closed.
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1 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a motion on the
3 second rule sub?
4 MR. JOOST: Move the sub.
5 MR. D. BROWN: Second.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Second rule sub by
7 Mr. Joost, second by Mr. Brown -- Dick Brown.
8 Discussion on the bill?
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot --
11 MR. HOLT: Voice vote.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. On the
13 substitute, I'm sorry.
14 All those in favor of the second rule
15 substitute, say yes.
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed, say no.
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
20 adopted the second rule substitute.
21 MR. JOOST: Move the bill to adopt the
22 second rule substitute.
23 MR. REDMAN: Second.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion by Mr. Joost, second
25 by Mr. Redman.
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1 Discussion?
2 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, now you can open the
4 ballot, vote.
5 (Committee ballot opened.)
6 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
7 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
8 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
9 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
12 (Committee ballot closed.)
13 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
15 approved item 9, 2010-901, as substituted.
16 Thank you, Mr. Crawford.
17 MR. CRAWFORD: Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Item 10, 2011-9.
19 Mr. Williams, is that your bill? Do you
20 want to -- is there a motion?
21 MR. BISHOP: Move the bill.
22 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion by Mr. Bishop, second
24 by Mr. Joost.
25 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Williams, do you want to
2 offer any comments? You've been sitting
3 patiently the whole night.
4 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, I thank
5 you, but -- unless you have any questions, I'm
6 good.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions from the
8 committee?
9 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We have a motion
11 and a second.
12 Any further discussion?
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot,
15 vote.
16 (Committee ballot opened.)
17 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
22 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
23 (Committee ballot closed.)
24 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
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1 approved item 10, 2011-9.
2 Flipping to page 5, item 11, 2011-10.
3 MR. JOOST: Move the amendment.
4 MR. BISHOP: Second.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the amendment by
6 Mr. Joost, second by Mr. Bishop.
7 Discussion on the amendment?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, all those in favor,
10 say yes.
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Yes.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Opposed, say no.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
15 adopted the amendment.
16 MR. BISHOP: Move the bill as amended.
17 MR. JOOST: Second.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the bill as
19 amended by Mr. Bishop, second by Mr. Joost.
20 Discussion?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot,
23 vote.
24 (Committee ballot opened.)
25 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
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1 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
2 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
3 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
4 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
5 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
6 (Committee ballot closed.)
7 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
9 approved item 11, 2011-10, as amended.
10 Thank you, Mr. Williams.
11 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Don't forget to send a thank
13 you note to the Rules chair.
14 Item 12, 2011-11. Mr. Smith.
15 Is Mr. Smith here?
16 MR. SMITH: Yes.
17 Mr. Chairman, members of the committee,
18 ordinance 2011-11 is an application seeking a
19 performance-based development agreement for the
20 purpose of reserving traffic circulation
21 capacity.
22 This property consists of approximately
23 1.5 acres and is located on
24 between
25 Place.
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1 The proposed development agreement includes
2 approximately 70,000 enclosed square feet of
3 general office uses, and the duration of the
4 agreement is for five years.
5 Staff has reviewed the application for
6 compliance with Part 2, Chapter 655, Ordinance
7 Code, and does have a recommendation to approve.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Smith.
9 We have a public hearing scheduled this
10 evening. The public hearing is open. I have
11 one speaker's card, Greg Kupperman.
12 (Mr. Kupperman approaches the podium.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kupperman.
14 MR. KUPPERMAN: Greg Kupperman, 200 First
15 Street,
16 I don't have anything to add to Mr. Smith.
17 I'll be glad to answer any questions.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
19 Mr. Kupperman.
20 Any questions from the committee?
21 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kupperman is a former
23 Planning Department employee from years ago. He
24 was sitting over here (indicating) when I first
25 came on the council way, way, back.
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1 All right. No questions.
2 Anybody else care to address the
3 committee?
4 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no one, the public
6 hearing is closed.
7 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
8 MR. BISHOP: Second.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the bill by
10 Mr. Joost, second by Bishop.
11 Discussion?
12 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
13 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot,
14 vote.
15 (Committee ballot opened.)
16 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
17 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
18 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
19 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
20 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
21 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
22 (Committee ballot closed.)
23 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
25 approved item 12, 2011-11.
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1 Item 13, 2011-12.
2 Mr. Smith.
3 MR. SMITH: Yes. Mr. Chairman, members of
4 the committee, ordinance 2011-12 is an
5 application seeking a performance-based
6 development agreement for the purpose of
7 reserving traffic circulation capacity.
8 This parcel consists of approximately
9 10.1 acres and is located on
10 between
12 approximately 72,800 enclosed square feet for a
13 private school use and approximately 768
14 students. The duration of this agreement is for
15 five years.
16 Staff has reviewed the application for
17 compliance with Chapter 65 [sic], Ordinance
18 Code, and has a recommendation to approve.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
20 Mr. Smith.
21 We have a public hearing scheduled on this
22 bill. The public hearing is open. I have one
23 speaker's card, Mr. Randall Gallup.
24 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gallup.
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1 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening,
2 Mr. Chairman.
3 Randy Gallup,
4 I'm the agent on behalf of Millennial
5
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions from the
7 committee?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: What's the -- is the
10 school's name spelled correctly on this bill?
11 MR. GALLUP: It's spelled correctly in the
12 ordinance bill itself, but on the -- on this
13 (indicating) it's incorrectly spelled.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any questions from
15 the committee?
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
18 Mr. Gallup.
19 MR. GALLUP: Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Anyone else care to address
21 the committee?
22 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no one, the public
24 hearing is closed.
25 MR. JOOST: Move the bill.
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1 MR. HOLT: Second.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion on the bill by
3 Mr. Joost, second by Mr. Holt.
4 Discussion?
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot,
7 vote.
8 (Committee ballot opened.)
9 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
10 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
11 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
12 MR. D. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
13 MR. JOOST: (Votes yea.)
14 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
15 (Committee ballot closed.)
16 MS. LAHMEUR: Six yeas, zero nay.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
18 approved item 13, 2011-12.
19 Item 14, at the bottom of the page, is read
20 second.
21 Top of page 6, items 15, 16, and 17 are
22 deferred.
23 And the remaining items -- 18 through 25 --
24 are all read, second and rerefer.
25 That completes our agenda.
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1 Anyone else have anything to come before
2 the committee?
3 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, I thank
5 everyone for being here.
6 And thanks to the staff who puts up with
7 all this and gets us set up. You guys often get
8 overlooked, so I want to recognize you tonight,
9 and our court reporter.
10 And we'll see you back here in two weeks,
11 the day after Valentine's Day. Don't come in --
12 don't show up the day after Valentine's Day
13 hung over or anything.
14 Thank you.
15 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
16 5:35 p.m.)
17 - - -
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 STATE OF
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
5
6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 5th day of February, 2011.
11
12
13
14 Diane M. Tropia
15
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Diane M. Tropia,
Inc.,