1 CITY OF
2 LAND USE AND ZONING
3 COMMITTEE
4
5
6 Proceedings held on Wednesday, January 19,
7 2011, commencing at 5:25 p.m., City Hall, Council
8 Chambers, 1st Floor,
9 Diane M. Tropia, a Notary Public in and for the State
10 of
11
12 PRESENT:
13 JOHN CRESCIMBENI, Chair.
RAY HOLT, Vice Chair.
14 WILLIAM BISHOP, Committee Member.
DON REDMAN, Committee Member.
15 REGINALD BROWN, Committee Member.
16
ALSO PRESENT:
17
18 BILL KILLINGSWORTH, Director, Planning Dept.
JOHN CROFTS, Deputy Director, Planning Dept.
19 SEAN KELLY, Chief, Current Planning.
FOLKS HUXFORD, Zoning Administrator.
20 KEN AVERY, Planning and Development Dept.
STEPHEN SMITH, Planning and Development Dept.
21 DYLAN REINGOLD, Office of General Counsel.
MERRIANE LAHMEUR, Legislative Assistant.
22 SHARONDA DAVIS, Legislative Assistant.
23 - - -
24
25
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 January 19, 2011 5:25 p.m.
3 - - -
4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Good evening,
5 everyone.
6 This is the Wednesday, January 19th, 2011,
7 meeting of the Land Use and Zoning Committee.
8 I apologize for the late start, but we had
9 a joint committee meeting between LUZ, Rules,
10 and RCD that ran right up until 5 o'clock and --
11 just gave our members that are -- were sitting
12 on that joint committee meeting some
13 opportunities to go up and get their materials
14 and get a glass of water or what have you.
15 So, with that said, we'll begin with our
16 introductions.
17 And, Mr. Crofts, hang on a second.
18 Mr. Redman complained last week that he's never
19 first, so we're going to start over on this side
20 (indicating) for a change.
21 MR. REDMAN: Whoever listens to me anyway.
22 Don Redman, District 4.
23 MR. BISHOP: Bill Bishop, District 2.
24 MR. HOLT: Ray Holt, District 11.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm John Crescimbeni,
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
3
1 at-large, Group 2, and chairman.
2 MR. BROWN: Reginald Brown, District 10.
3 MR. REINGOLD: Dylan Reingold with the
4 Office of General Counsel.
5 MR. AVERY: Ken Avery, Planning and
6 Development.
7 MR. HUXFORD: Folks Huxford, Planning and
8 Development.
9 MR. SMITH: Stephen Smith, Planning and
10 Development.
11 MR. KELLY: Sean Kelly, Planning and
12 Development.
13 MR. CROFTS: John Crofts, representing the
14 Planning Department.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: How does it feel to be last,
16 Mr. Crofts?
17 MR. CROFTS: That's fine.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
19 MR. CROFTS: I'm very comfortable with it.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We have a short
21 agenda tonight. We only have a -- one item that
22 we're going to -- we're scheduled to take action
23 on and we do have some public hearings, but
24 before we get into that, Mr. Reingold, will you
25 read the LUZ creed, please?
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
4
1 MR. REINGOLD: Delighted as always, sir.
2 Good evening, everyone.
3 Anyone who would like to address the
4 committee must fill out a yellow speaker's card
5 in its entirety. The yellow speakers' cards are
6 located on the desk up front, near the podium.
7 Once completed, please return the speaker's card
8 to the basket on the front desk.
9 Any person who lobbies the City for
10 compensation is considered a lobbyist and is
11 therefore required to register their lobbying
12 activity with the City Council secretary. If
13 you are a lobbyist and have not registered with
14 the City Council secretary, you will not be
15 permitted to address the committee tonight.
16 Because a verbatim transcript of this
17 meeting will be prepared by a court reporter, it
18 is important that you speak clearly into the
19 microphone when you address the committee. It
20 is also important that only one speaker speak at
21 a time.
22 Any tangible material submitted with a
23 speaker's presentation, such as documents,
24 photographs, plans, drawings, et cetera, shall
25 become a permanent part of the public record and
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
5
1 will be retained by this committee; therefore,
2 please be sure to keep a copy of anything
3 submitted in case you need it later.
4 As a courtesy, please switch any cell
5 phones, pagers, or audible devices to a silent
6 mode.
7 Additionally, there shall be no public
8 displays of support or opposition, so please
9 refrain from applause or speaking out of turn.
10 Items are generally addressed in the order
11 in which they are listed on the agenda. Copies
12 of the agenda are located on the desk up front,
13 near the podium.
14 On occasion, items may be heard out of
15 order for the sake of efficiency or to
16 accommodate scheduling conflicts.
17 Unless there is a formal hearing on a
18 particular item, each member of the public is
19 limited to a three-minute presentation.
20 Therefore, presentations should be focused,
21 concise, and address only the item pending
22 before the committee.
23 Prior to addressing the committee, please
24 state your name and your address for the court
25 reporter.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
6
1 The next section is about quasi-judicial
2 proceedings. I do not believe we're taking any
3 final action tonight on those items, so I will
4 not give that part of the presentation.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Reingold.
6 Okay. If everyone will turn to page 2 of
7 their agenda, item 1, 2010-585, is deferred, as
8 are item 2, 2010-618, and item 3, 2010-670.
9 On page 3, at the top, item 4, 2010-844, we
10 have a public hearing scheduled this evening.
11 The public hearing is open. Do we have any
12 speaker cards on item 4?
13 (Ms. Davis tenders speaker card.)
14 THE CHAIRMAN:
15 Is Ms. Hipps here?
16 MS. HIPPS: Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: A former council president.
18 (Ms. Hipps approaches the podium.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Welcome, Ms. Hipps.
20 MS. HIPPS: Thank you.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: We're not going to take any
22 action on this tonight. We're going to continue
23 the public hearing until February 1st, but
24 you're free to address the committee.
25 MS. HIPPS: I'm just here --
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
7
2 questions tonight.
3 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions from the
5 committee?
6 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Hipps.
8 MS. HIPPS: Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any other
10 speakers?
11 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no one, the public
13 hearing is continued until February 1st.
14 And, Ms. Hipps, we'll see you hopefully on
15 February 1st.
16 MS. HIPPS: Thank you.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: No further action on that
18 bill.
19 Item 5, 2010-856, the subject of our
20 earlier joint meeting, that bill is deferred.
21 We've appointed a special subcommittee with
22 members of the LUZ Committee, RCD Committee, and
23 Rules Committee, and there will be a subsequent
24 notice about when they will meet to take further
25 discussion and comments on item 5.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
8
1 Item 6, 2010-874, we have a public hearing
2 scheduled this evening.
3 The public hearing is open. Are there any
4 speaker cards?
5 MS. DAVIS: No.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none,
7 anyone care to address the committee?
8 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: That public hearing is
10 continued until February 1st as well and we're
11 taking no further action.
12 Item 7, at the bottom of the page,
13 2010-893, is deferred.
14 Turning ahead to page 4, at the top,
15 item 8, 2010-899, we have a public hearing
16 scheduled this evening.
17 The public hearing is open. I do have one
18 speaker's card, Randy Gallup.
19 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gallup.
21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
22 Randy Gallup,
23 I'm here on behalf of AY Commercial to
24 answer any questions about the development
25 agreement.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
9
1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
2 Any questions from the committee?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
4 THE CHAIRMAN: And I forgot, but we have
5 Mr. Smith here to give us a synopsis of the
6 agreement.
7 Mr. Smith.
8 MR. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
9 Thank you.
10 Members of the committee, ordinance
11 2010-899 is an application seeking a
12 performance-based development agreement for the
13 purpose of reserving traffic circulation
14 capacity. The property consists of
15 approximately 2.1 acres. It's located on
18 approximately 26,000 enclosed square feet for
19 shopping center uses. The duration is for three
20 years.
21 The staff has reviewed the application for
22 compliance with Chapter 655, Ordinance Code, and
23 has a recommendation to approve.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Smith.
25 Any questions from the committee for
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 Mr. Smith?
2 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions for
4 Mr. Gallup based on Mr. Smith's comments?
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
7 Mr. Gallup.
8 Anyone else care to address the committee?
9 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
11 the public hearing is closed.
12 Is there a motion?
13 MR. BISHOP: Move the bill.
14 MR. REDMAN: Second.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion by Bishop, second by
16 Mr. Redman.
17 Discussion?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: If not, open the ballot,
20 vote.
21 (Committee ballot opened.)
22 MR. CRESCIMBENI: (Votes yea.)
23 MR. HOLT: (Votes yea.)
24 MR. BROWN: (Votes yea.)
25 MR. BISHOP: (Votes yea.)
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
11
1 MR. REDMAN: (Votes yea.)
2 (Committee ballot closed.)
3 MS. LAHMEUR: Five yeas, zero nay.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: By our action, you've
5 approved item 8, 2010-899.
6 Item 9, 2010-900, is scheduled for a public
7 hearing this evening. We will not take up this
8 bill; it's still in Planning Commission, but I
9 do have several speakers' cards.
10 The public hearing is open. I'm going to
11 call your name, if you will come to the podium.
12 Leslie Goller, who will be followed by
13 Lad Hawkins and Rachel Cocciolo.
14 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Before I start speaking,
16 could I have these (indicating) -- or before my
17 time starts, could I have these delivered to
18 each one of the City Council members?
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.
20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: It's copies from what I'm
21 going to be referring to.
22 My name is Leslie Goller. I live at 2247
23 Smullian Trail South.
24 I am not being paid for advocating to you.
25 I oppose this legislation, and I'm going to give
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
12
1 you a simple reason why. Many of you-all know
2 me. Way back, a long time ago, I worked with
3 Capsigns to get the billboard ordinance and to
4 get restrictions on signs. It's important to
5 our city to have them because it makes our city
6 look better and it makes our city more safe.
7 One of the things that I ask you to ask is
8 why there's been such an about-face by the
9 Planning Department which has a policy that said
10 that the changing could only occur once every
11 three minutes. That was what was proposed to
12 you in ordinance 2010-767, and they recite all
13 sorts of important language, which I've
14 highlighted for you and I hope you read, but
15 basically they're talking about not only safety
16 issues and the fact that there's a -- Federal
17 Highway Administration has conducted a study
18 saying that these devices lead to a high
19 frequency of -- with a high frequency of change,
20 leads to driver distraction and a significant
21 increase in the number of accidents. That's not
22 what we want for
23 been an about-face?
24 Well, one of the things that --
25 investigation that City Council needs to do is
Diane M. Tropia, Inc.,
13
1 to talk to who drafted the original ordinance,
2 Steve Durden. What happened was there was a
3 typographical error that occurred and a "not"
4 got left out, and so the preposterous situation
5 of -- that it was illegal to have a sign that
6 changed more than once every three minutes --
7 be -- was -- you had to change more than once
8 every three minutes.
9 Well, policy, being smart and knowing that
10 wasn't what was originally what was meant by the
11 ordinance, said, no, our policy is going to be
12 that the maximum amount you can change is once
13 every three minutes.
14 I, frankly, don't want to have signs that
15 can change, but that is what the policy became
16 and that's what we should stick with. We
17 shouldn't be kowtowing down to the -- the
18 billboard industry, who wants to build these
19 cash cows that are going to change once every
20 eight seconds.
21 And we're not just talking about billboards
22 either. We're also talking about on-site signs,
23 not just off-site signs, that are going to be
24 flashing and changing and they're not going to
25 be synced and they're going to be distractions.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
14
1 You need to realize what occurred was
2 that -- that the billboard company -- the
3 largest billboard company and the one here has
4 applications that they submitted right away to
5 build eight of these huge Jumbotron billboards,
6 and they're going to have 14 faces -- eight of
7 them having 14 faces, and that's just the
8 start.
Is that what we want for
9 I say no.
10 Safety and aesthetics, that's what you need
11 to do because that's what the citizens wanted
12 when 77 -- 57 percent of us voted to have sign
13 restrictions. And people haven't changed their
14 mind about that, and that's a high percentage
15 for
16 bad voting record.
17 Thank you.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Goller.
19 Any questions from the committee?
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly or Mr. Crofts, has
22 the Planning Department rendered a report on
23 -900?
24 MR. KELLY: Yes, sir, we issued a report.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. For some reason I
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
15
1 don't have it in my book, but I will figure out
2 why.
3 All right. Thank you.
4 Our next speaker is Mr. Hawkins, followed
5 by Ms. Cocciolo, and then James Green.
6 Mr. Hawkins.
7 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
8 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
9 My name is Lad Hawkins. I'm here speaking
10 in opposition to 2010-900. I'm personally
11 opposed to it. I'm also speaking for the
12 Greater
13 last January meeting unanimously opposed this
14 ordinance on the basic premise of safety as well
15 as site aesthetics.
16 I'm also on the CPAC land use and zoning
17 subcommittee. And since there isn't anybody
18 else from CPAC here to -- this is the
19 Arlington/Beaches CPAC -- to mention this, the
20 Arlington/Beaches CPAC also unanimously opposed
21 this legislation.
22 I think it's important to listen to the
23 people. This is something that is not good for
24 the people of
25 that may be good for some big sign companies,
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
16
1 but this is like the nuclear arms race. When
2 you start making one business have a big
3 blinking sign, then the other businesses have to
4 have a big blinking sign, and it's not good for
5 businesses. It costs them money to keep up, and
6 it is not necessary. And I think if we study
7 this thing a little bit more thoroughly, we'll
8 find out that this really is a bad idea.
9 I encourage you to -- to think very hard
10 about this and vote no.
11 Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins.
13 Any questions from the committee?
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. The next speaker
16 is Rachel Cocciolo, followed by Mr. Green, and
17 then Tracey Arpen.
18 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
19 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I also have some
20 materials for the City Council members.
21 Hi. My name is Rachel Cocciolo. I reside
22 at
23 32246.
24 I just want to follow up on something that
25 Mr. Hawkins just said to you, which is --
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
17
1 actually, what I'm passing out to you is kind of
2 an illustration of the arms race that he
3 mentioned.
4 You can imagine how once one of these signs
5 goes up, a neighboring business will want
6 another -- their own digital sign until
7 basically everybody has a digital sign. And, I
8 mean, what's the benefit?
9 Okay. But what I wanted to talk to you
10 about was actually a document that I believe
11
some of you have received. It's
called
12 Digital Timing Change Requirements by
13 Municipality. I believe it came to you from one
14 of Clear Channel's lobbyists, and I just want to
15 point out -- because I'm not sure whether or not
16 this pertains to digital billboards or to
17 on-site signage. If it's meant to pertain to
18 on-site signage, it's misleading at best.
19 The city of
20 time -- or a -- an interval requirement of eight
21 seconds. Well, that's for digital billboards as
22 part of a pilot program.
23 not allow changing electronic message signs.
24 And I also -- I have the ordinance whereby
25 they are prohibited. Can I please tender that
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
18
1 as well? I'm sorry.
2 (Tenders documents.)
3 Also, this document says that the city of
4
5 on the change time for electronic signs. I'm
6 not sure where that information came from
7 because the city of
8 these signs. In Article 3, Zoning, Division 42,
9 at Section 3.42.18(8), these signs are
10 prohibited.
11 Let's see. Another one. Winter Park also
12 prohibits these signs at Section 58-135 of their
13 Land Development Code.
14 And I'm only giving you all of this
15 information because this document is
16 misleading. It should say, you know, digital
17 billboard requirements, not just digital signs.
18 If any of you have any questions regarding
19 this document, I would be happy to answer them.
20 Please disapprove ordinance 2010-900. It's
21 not good for the city of
22 are many other cities that don't allow these
23 types of signs. We do allow this type of sign.
24 We have a liberal three-minute dwell time
25 requirement, and that should be sufficient for
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
19
1 any business.
2 Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
4 Now, I'm sorry, I was taking some notes
5 here on something else. Did you -- what were
6 you saying about
7 say that there was something that suggested that
8
9 MS. COCCIOLO: Well, at the Planning
10 Commission last week, one of the commiss- -- the
11 chair of the commission asked what
12 dwell time requirement was, and one of the
13 planning staff members answered that it was
14 eight seconds without qualifying that that was
15 for digital billboards and -- as opposed to
16 on-site changing electronic message signs or
17 changing message devices.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: One of our planning staff?
19 MS. COCCIOLO: Yes.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crofts, Mr. Kelly, do
21 you have any information about
22 MR. KELLY: No. To the Chair, we don't
23 have any information with us tonight with
24 regards to that.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Who made the claim?
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
20
1 MS. COCCIOLO: It was Mr. Kelly.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly. All right.
3 Will you look into that for us, Mr. Kelly,
4 and have a report at our next meeting?
5 MR. KELLY: Sure.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
7 Thank you, Ms. Cocciolo.
8 MS. COCCIOLO: Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Question from Mr. Brown.
10 I'm sorry.
11 MR. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair to the
12 speaker, you mentioned that -- the three
13 minutes, and I'm just trying to get a handle on
14 the three minutes versus the eight minutes.
15 MS. COCCIOLO: Eight seconds.
16 MR. BROWN: Eight seconds, I'm sorry.
17 Could you elaborate on that? Because I'm
18 thinking, if -- and I'll use this analogy, that
19 if it says there's an accident, five minutes,
20 and then -- there's a pause in it because it has
21 to go to the next slide, if you will.
22 MS. COCCIOLO: Okay.
23 MR. BROWN: Will the three minutes be there
24 or where would the three minutes --
25 MS. COCCIOLO: You mean will the message be
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
21
1 displayed for the entire three minutes?
2 MR. BROWN: Right. Will that one sentence
3 be -- a part of that sentence be --
4 MS. COCCIOLO: Oh, right. Right. Are you
5 talking about scrolling?
6 MR. BROWN: Right.
7 MS. COCCIOLO: Scrolling --
8 MR. BROWN: How does that work?
9 MS. COCCIOLO: Scrolling is not a good
10 idea. I don't believe it's allowed currently in
11
12 allow it. And scrolling just, you know,
13 continuously goes across the screen.
14 MR. BROWN: Okay. So if -- because I know
15 that when I see these signs in different places,
16 it's a continuation, so it will say something
17 like -- and I'll start over again -- there's an
18 accident five minutes ahead, and then the next
19 one would say, get off on Exit 76 to avoid --
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, you're talking
21 about the DOT signs or you're talking about --
22 you're talking about the DOT signs that overhang
23 the --
24 MS. COCCIOLO: Interstate?
25 MR. BROWN: Right, signage.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think it would
2 apply -- there's no application to the DOT
3 signs. This bill --
4 MR. BROWN: This is the same thing, though,
5 right, in terms of -- we're talking time, eight
6 seconds -- I mean, eight seconds versus three
7 minutes?
8 MS. COCCIOLO: No.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: This bill applies to -- I'm
10 guessing --
11 MS. COCCIOLO: Local roadways.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: -- yeah, local -- commercial
13 signs that are -- commercial signs on
14 businesses.
15 MR. BROWN: Okay.
16 MS. COCCIOLO: On-site signage.
17 MR. BROWN: So it's not going to impact --
18 THE CHAIRMAN: No.
19 MS. COCCIOLO: No, it wouldn't impact FDOT
20 signs.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold or Mr. Kelly,
22 can you expound on that?
23 MR. KELLY: The changing message devices
24 are basically on site and off site. They're not
25 related to public safety as it relates to, like,
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
23
1 DOT public safety signs on the highway.
2 MR. BROWN: All right.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that answer your
4 question?
5 MR. BROWN: Partly. We'll continue.
6 Go ahead. That's fine.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
8 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
10 Mr. Green, followed by Mr. Arpen, followed
11 by
12 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening.
14 James Green,
15 32277.
16 Other speakers are very adequately covering
17 the -- the problem with the eight-second timing.
18 There's a few things that -- as you go back
19 and look at this bill, that are not included.
20 There's nothing to regulate the brightness,
21 particularly at night, the same number of lumens
22 or whatever they call it that you need in the
23 daytime. If you had that at night, it would be
24 extremely distracting and -- and annoying to
25 people living in that area.
Diane M. Tropia, Inc.,
24
1 Spacing of the signs and proximity to
2 residential areas or intersections are not
3 addressed as I recall from reading the draft
4 ordinance. And I'd like, as you go back to look
5 at this, that you include these factors.
6 Ideally, you will completely reject this
7 proposal and stay with the three minutes or
8 something along --
9 Thank you.
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Green.
11 Any questions from the committee?
12 MR. BROWN: Yes.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown.
14 MR. BROWN: Through the Chair to the
15 speaker, illumination, you mentioned that,
16 because I -- I believe that with everything,
17 sometimes you can find a happy medium. Do you
18 have a thought in terms of illumination, what
19 would satisfy, what -- what degree of lighting
20 are you talking about?
21 MR. GREEN: Not off the top of my head.
22 There -- there has been research on
23 different brightness levels, but I don't have
24 that with me.
25 MR. BROWN: Okay. Can someone help me with
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
25
1 the brightness level? What's the state
2 requirement right now or do we -- okay.
3 Go ahead.
4 MR. KELLY: The City currently regulates,
5 under Chapter 326, the lumen levels of signs.
6 It's basically the equivalent of a 40-watt light
7 bulb.
8 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.
9 Through the Chair -- well, not necessarily
10 to the speaker, then. Are we looking at, with
11 this bill, doing something different in terms of
12 the wattage?
13 MR. KELLY: No. The bill that's proposed,
14 that was introduced, is specifically a
15 definition and clarification of the existing
16 definitions and establishing a new performance
17 standard for a changing message device.
18 MR. BROWN: Okay. So I'm clear to
19 understand that the wattage would be 40 for the
20 illumination?
21 I just want to make sure that --
22 MR. KELLY: Right. There's no proposed
23 change to that requirement in the code.
24 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
26
1 Any other questions for Mr. Green?
2 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Green.
4 Mr. Arpen, again, followed by Mr. Collins,
5 followed by William Brinton.
6 (Mr. Arpen approaches the podium.)
7 MR. ARPEN: Tracey Arpen, 3489 Loretto
8 Road.
9 This bill was deferred in Planning
10 Commission, I think, in part because of the
11 Planning Commission's recognition that this is a
12 very complex issue, as you've gotten just a
13 flavor of today when you're talking about issues
14 such as brightness, spacing, how close these
15 signs ought to be to signalized intersections
16 where they can be a distraction. All those
17 things, I think, were things that the Planning
18 Commission thought really needs an in-depth
19 study, much more so than you get in the context
20 of three-minute sound bites during public
21 hearings. So there are going to be some
22 workshops held to facilitate that kind of
23 information exchange.
24 The other thing, quite frankly, I think,
25 that led to the Planning Commission to defer it
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
27
1 is I think some of the commissioners were, quite
2 frankly, befuddled at the Planning Department
3 report on this bill compared to their report on
4 the bill last year.
5 Last year they issued a recommendation on a
6 bill strongly in support of a three-minute rule,
7 citing the -- at great length, the concerns
8 about traffic safety and problems along those
9 lines. This time they've announced to -- their
10 support for a bill to allow eight seconds, which
11 gets me to my other point, which is this isn't
12 really an eight-second bill. We've called it an
13 eight-second rule. It's a really not an
14 eight-second rule because the bill also, for the
15 first time in the city of
16 signs to scroll continuously. So there's no
17 pause, there's no break, they can scroll nonstop
18 for as long as they want to.
19 I was driving by -- not driving by because
20 I was stopped to time it, and it -- it took nine
21 seconds for the scrolling message to move
22 across. If you were going down the highway at
23 45 miles an hour, the speed limit, you would
24 have moved 800 feet in those eight seconds
25 waiting for that sign message to be read and --
Diane M.
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1 without your eyes being on the road where they
2 should be.
3 The other thing I'd like to do is just to
4 dispel a couple of myths. One is that this bill
5 is antibusiness. As you heard earlier about the
6 potential for an arms race on signs, that's what
7 this bill would invite because right now there's
8 a relatively level playing field, but if the
9 floodgates are open and businesses start
10 throwing up these electronic changing message
11 signs that can change every eight seconds, it's
12 going to really force other businesses to do it,
13 and small businesses can't afford this type of a
14 sign. It's going to put them at a competitive
15 disadvantage.
16 The second myth is that this bill doesn't
17 have anything to do with billboards. The next
18 time a lobbyist comes to see you and tells you
19 that this bill doesn't have anything to do with
20 billboards, just ask them who they're being paid
21 by and why they're being paid by Clear Channel
22 if the bill doesn't have anything to do with
23 billboards.
24 It certainly has to do with billboards
25 because the billboards will follow the same
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 rules that the on-site signs will with respect
2 to electronic changing messages. The
3 distinction is, instead of having an electronic
4 changing message sign that might be 50 square
5 feet or 100 square feet, what this will be
6 instead will be a billboard that's changing
7 every eight seconds that's 672 square feet. And
8 so, yes, it does have to do with billboards, as
9 it will apply to those, and that makes the bill
10 even more obnoxious and one more reason why it
11 should be defeated.
12 I'll be glad to answer any questions the
13 committee might have.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Arpen.
15 Any questions from the committee?
16 MR. BROWN: Yes.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown.
18 MR. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair to
19 legal, because I want to -- I want to make sure
20 we have clarification here regarding the signage
21 and the billboard, following the same policy
22 or -- or guidelines.
23 You just stated that it definitely
24 impact -- it will follow the same guidelines as
25 the billboard. I just want to make sure that we
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 have some clarification because I had some other
2 information that stated that there was two
3 different criteria or stipulations or policies
4 that -- one had nothing to do with the other.
5 So I guess in -- in simple, do they fall up
6 under the same guidelines or do they not fall up
7 under the same guidelines?
8 MR. KELLY: Well, to the -- through the
9 Chair to Councilmember Brown, the settlement
10 agreement regulates the off-site billboards.
11 The Zoning Code regulates the on-site signs as
12 well as the Building Code.
13 What's proposed is the frequency of change,
14 which is eight seconds, and it's been --
15 clearly, it would apply to on-site signs. And
16 that's, I guess, debatable whether or not it
17 would actually apply to the digital billboards
18 or off-site signs.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions,
20 Mr. Brown? Did that answer your question?
21 MR. BROWN: No, Mr. Chairman.
22 What I was looking for -- maybe -- and I
23 don't know whether we can reduce it to a simple
24 yes or no, but that would really help me. You
25 know, I was not really following this process.
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 I'll have to do a little more in-depth reading,
2 but just to get some clarity, just yes or no,
3 are we going to use the same --
4 I think what I heard was two different
5 policies or guidelines is what I heard, but if
6 we can just do a yes or no because what I just
7 heard the speaker say was that there's one
8 guideline for both signage and billboards; am I
9 correct?
10 MR. ARPEN: That's correct.
11 MR. BROWN: Okay.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, do you concur?
13 MR. KELLY: Yes. That's what's proposed.
14 I mean, they are treated differently in the
15 ordinance, but as an operational standard,
16 they're proposed to be equal.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
18 Mr. Bishop.
19 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: My queue is not working, so
21 just -- oh, now it's working.
22 Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 Mr. Arpen, in your experience in dealing
25 with this sort of thing for many years, would
Diane M.
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1 you say -- how do I ask this?
2 Under the criterion in this bill for a
3 continuously scrolling message, would a
4 television screen that shows full-motion video
5 be considered continuously scrolling for
6 purposes of this ordinance?
7 MR. ARPEN: The way the ordinance is
8 drafted, I don't believe it would because it --
9 the ordinance code still prohibits animation.
10 The way the ordinance code -- this bill
11 defines "scrolling message," I don't believe it
12 would permit a -- an animated TV screen, like a
13 video playing up there, but it would permit the
14 billboard or any on-site sign to be a
15 continuously scrolling sign with no break and
16 nothing to redirect the driver's attention back
17 to the roadway.
18 MR. BISHOP: Okay. This would be a
19 question for Mr. Kelly. Are full-motion video
20 signs allowed under the current law, as you
21 understand it?
22 MR. KELLY: No. They would be considered
23 animated signs, prohibited.
24 MR. BISHOP: Okay. This is just a general
25 comment for anybody: Does everybody realize
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 they're out there right now?
2 Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
4 Mr. Redman.
5 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 Would I be allowed to give an amendment to
7 say that these will not be on billboards, that
8 we could not put the scrolling --
9 THE CHAIRMAN: We're not going to take the
10 bill up tonight. But, you know, when we do take
11 the bill up, you're welcome to make any
12 amendments that you'd like to.
13 MR. REDMAN: All right. I think that would
14 be a good idea when we get to it.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
16 Mr. Redman.
17 Any other questions for Mr. Arpen?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Arpen has disappeared, I
20 guess.
21 Mr. Collins, I believe you were next.
22 MR. COLLINS: I'll defer to Mr. Brinton.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: You're deferring? So you
24 don't want to speak?
25 MR. COLLINS: No, thank you, not at this
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 time.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Brinton.
3 And then Mr. Brinton will be followed by
4 Randy Taylor and then Karl Sanders.
5 (Mr. Brinton approaches the podium.)
6 MR. BRINTON: Bill Brinton, 1835 Challen
7 Avenue,
8 And I look forward to answering and
9 hopefully clearing up the questions that have
10 been asked by -- as many of you know, I've
11 worked in this area for 25 years and I'm -- I
12 represent local governments across the United
13 States.
14 The one thing I wanted to bring to your
15 attention -- I sent you an e-mail today -- is --
16 I was hired by
17 with a decade ago in negotiating a settlement
18 agreement with Clear Channel. I was hired by
19
20 ago
21 prohibiting any further digital billboards in
22
23 as to the circumstances under which they would
24 be allowed; how many traditional billboards
25 would have to be traded in to allow a digital to
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 go up; to address the issues that Mr. Green
2 raised, how far away from a signalized
3 intersection are you going to put a digital
4 billboard or are you going to allow a digital
5 billboard that changes every eight seconds to be
6 right behind the traffic light, or --
7 And this is a Clear Channel billboard
8 (indicating). I personally took this photograph
9 several years ago in -- in
10 where you'll see the digital billboard right
11 behind people's homes, their backyard. You can
12 see it from the front yard of the -- of the
13 homes across the street.
14 There is no provision in what's proposed to
15 you for the placement of a digital billboard
16 away from residential property.
17 is suggesting that it be at least 500 feet. And
18 I know that there are digital billboard building
19 permit applications today at the Building
20 Inspection Division that will allow digital
21 billboards to be much closer than 500 feet to
22 existing residential properties.
23 I think -- you can see out in the
24 landscape, you have scrolling signs, changing
25 message signs, not billboards that are right
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 next to residential property, right across the
2 street.
3 Now, I don't want to call this an
4 eight-second rule. I want to call it a
5 10,000-messages-a-day rule because every eight
6 seconds is 10,000 times a day.
7 I know that rep- -- that commiss- -- that
8 councilmember -- Dr. Gaffney has withdrawn his
9 name as a cosponsor of the bill because he now
10 has -- understands, as I've been advised, that
11 this is going to allow 10,000 changes a day on
12 on-site signs across this city, thousands, maybe
13 tens of thousands of signs, on premise, that can
14 change 10,000 times a day, freestanding signs,
15 wall signs in CCG-1, CCG-2,
16 I hope the Planning Department will have a
17 number for you on how many parcels will be
18 affected and how many signs throughout the city
19 can now be changed to every eight seconds or
20 10,000 times a day. Three minutes is extremely
21 liberal. Three minutes is over 400 times a
22 day.
23 So, again, there are many issues here. I'd
24 be happy to answer questions and help illuminate
25 this question.
Diane M. Tropia, Inc.,
37
1 And, by the way, I hope you'll have a
2 chance, because you are the LUZ Committee, to
3 attend the workshops. One will be next week and
4 I believe one will be a week or so after.
5 Thank you very much.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Brinton.
7 Mr. Brown, do you have a question?
8 MR. BROWN: I do. I'm not sure whether --
9 well, I'll just throw it out there,
10 Mr. Chairman.
11 Through the Chair, it was mentioned that
12 there's no restrictions right now for where
13 billboards or signs can go. They can go on
14 CCG-1 property, CCG-2. Are we --
15 MR. BRINTON: I'm not --
16 MR. BROWN: Go ahead.
17 MR. BRINTON: I'm not -- if we're talking
18 about on-site signs and not billboards, that's
19 one issue. If we're talking about billboards,
20 that's a separate issue. And these two issues
21 are getting conflated together and causing a lot
22 of confusion, and I'm hoping to undo that
23 confusion by answering questions about
24 billboards.
25 I know Councilman Redman was talking about
Diane M.
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1 a possible amendment, but also talking about the
2 tremendous impact across the city if you allow
3 10,000 changes a day on all signs, on all
4 properties in CCG-1, CCG-2, and the other zoning
5 districts.
6 MR. BROWN: Okay.
7 MR. BRINTON: Just imagine driving down
9 sign every eight seconds on every parcel, at
10 least two on every parcel.
11 MR. BROWN: Right.
12 Well, Mr. Chairman, my question really -- I
13 guess it would deal with signage.
14 MR. BRINTON: Okay.
15 MR. BROWN: What areas, in terms of -- and
16 this varies with zoning -- would these signs be
17 allowed? Because right now, I'm -- what I'm
18 hearing is that -- it's like it's going to be
19 all over the city and I just want to make
20 sure --
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, can you read the
22 zoning districts that this ordinance applies to
23 with regard to allowing changeable message
24 signs --
25 MR. KELLY: Certainly.
Diane M.
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1 (Simultaneous speaking.)
2 MR. KELLY: As it stands today, on-site
3 signs, changing message devices are basically
4 permitted within the commercial neighborhood
5 zoning district, CCG-1, CCG-2, industrial zoning
6 districts, which include
7 Additionally, they would be permitted through
8 the grant of a waiver in residential districts
9 for churches and things like that.
10 MR. BROWN: Okay. And the waiver would
11 come through your office?
12 MR. KELLY: Actually, a waiver would come
13 directly to this board.
14 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, this would apply
16 to all current on-site signs, whether they be a
17 pole sign, monument sign, wall sign? They could
18 all be converted to digital, correct, within the
19 zoning district --
20 MR. KELLY: Within the zoning districts,
21 that's as it stands today, correct.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is there a way we can
23 extract how many sign permits we have that exist
24 in all those zoning districts? I bet you could
25 do that, couldn't you?
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
40
1 MR. KELLY: I mean, as a basic kind of
2 rough estimate through GIS, we can -- you know,
3 based upon the parcels, what allowable
4 signage -- I mean, PUDs --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I mean, when we pass a --
6 when I drive by a shopping center, a strip
7 center that's got 40 or 50 stores in it, I mean,
8 every one of those wall signs could be converted
9 to digital, right?
10 MR. KELLY: Well, yeah. I mean, a wall
11 sign -- although that's --
12 THE CHAIRMAN: And the sign out front could
13 be converted to digital, correct?
14 MR. KELLY: There's a spacing requirement
15 for the on-site signs --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Of?
17 MR. KELLY: -- two hundred feet between
18 signs.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: That exists today?
20 MR. KELLY: Correct.
21 THE CHAIRMAN: So, I mean --
22 MR. KELLY: In the commercial districts.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. And they could
24 all change every eight seconds?
25 MR. KELLY: That's today, correct, more
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
41
1 than -- basically more than once in three
2 minutes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I've got signs. I had
4 to buy sign permits for them. You get a little
5 sticker. They fade out after a few years. I
6 would ask you to look into that and find out how
7 many sign permits are out there in those zoning
8 districts.
9 Does this ordinance add any new zoning
10 districts that aren't currently -- other than
11 the residential that you mentioned?
12 MR. KELLY: No.
13 What's only proposed is a clarification in
14 the definition because, currently, the -- the
15 way it's specifically written in the code, the
16 definition of a "changing message device" allows
17 messages actually to scroll, that -- messages
18 that move or appear to move are provided in the
19 definition, and that change is more than once
20 every three minutes.
21 So there's no limitation right now on the
22 frequency of change. This bill proposes a
23 frequency level of eight seconds to that for the
24 on-site signs and changing message devices.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
Diane M.
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1 Our next speaker is Mr. Randy Taylor.
2 I'm sorry, were there any other questions
3 for Mr. Brinton?
4 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
6 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
7 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Randy Taylor, 4162
9 I'm in favor of 2010-900. I've been here
10 at every single meeting through the beginning of
11 the whole process. I've listened to pretty much
12 the pros and the cons of everything.
13 Every time we get up here, it seems like
14 this thing keeps getting off on billboards.
15 This legislation is for an eight-second hold
16 time, period, not what somebody does in Pinellas
17 County, not what somebody does in any of these
18 other counties. We can go on and on and recite
19 what codes and counties and what they're for.
20 We're here to find out what's good for
21
22 Right now there's a lot of these boards out
23 there and right now there is no regulation on
24 these boards. These boards do flash, they do
25 pop, they do all kinds of crazy things. This
Diane M.
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43
1 legislation changes that. This puts regulation
2 on these signs.
3 Eight seconds is a reasonable hold time,
4 and what that does -- that means there will be
5 no fireworks, that means there will be no bombs
6 and blasting in the background. When this goes
7 up, it's a static message, which means that
8 message holds for eight seconds and then it
9 changes.
10 There are signs that can scroll. How many
11 signs do you see that constantly scroll? You're
12 not -- everybody -- that's not their intention
13 of these signs. They're trying to get a message
14 up there. They have a -- a sale for the day for
15 Valentine's Day. They want that message up
16 there for the day.
17 This is not talking about -- they're not
18 going to see how many times and messages they
19 can get across because if you're driving in a
20 car, think about it, you can't read the whole
21 message. It's -- it's stupid advertising if
22 you're going to think that way. That's not the
23 intent of these boards and it's not the purpose
24 of them, and to think that way is crazy because
25 this is not
Diane M.
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1
2 As they just talked about, all the
3 different zoning areas that these are in --
4 they're CCG-1, they're CCG-2. They're not in RR
5 districts, they're not in residential districts,
6 they're not allowed in these districts. They're
7 there to be in commercial districts where they
8 promote business, where the people in
9
10 and let the economy grow. That's what this is
11 about.
12 I don't care about the billboards and
13 everything else. This is an eight-second rule,
14 about an eight-second hold time for these
15 boards, and I think everybody is getting off
16 track in all these different tangents.
17 Like I said, all the small businesses here,
18 this is what they need in this time. In this
19 bad economy, this is generating business for
20 these folks. These boards, they've spent
21 hundreds of thousands of dollars on these boards
22 and they're for a reason, to generate business.
23 And if these boards are regulated like you want
24 to regulate them, they're going to go out of
25 business,
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
45
1 and -- and things are not going to be what they
2 should be.
3 This is something positive. This is
4 regulating these boards. This is giving them
5 static hold times. This is taking away the
6 flashing. This is taking away the animation.
7 This means the code enforcement can go out and
8 do their job and say you're breaking the rules,
9 you're going to get fined if you do it again.
10 That's what this is about, and I just think it's
11 getting off track and everybody's going in
12 different areas, that -- this is what we need to
13 focus on, what is good for
14 business.
15 These signs are good. They've been around
16 since 1987. We have haven't had any problems.
17 There's no accidents, there's no -- we don't
18 have people coming up and saying these boards
19 are a nuisance. How many complaints has the
20 City had for these boards? I don't think we had
21 any. If there is, I'd like to see them.
22 Thank you.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Taylor.
24 Any questions for Mr. Taylor?
25 MR. BROWN: Yes.
Diane M.
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown.
2 MR. BROWN: I have two questions. Through
3 the Chair to the speaker -- I think I can better
4 ask my first question when I ask about the
5 message and the eight seconds versus the three
6 minutes.
7 Now, if I'm a business and I'm selling
8 flowers and I -- half -- the first half of the
9 message is, one half off of one dozen roses, am
10 I to understand that I would have to sit there
11 and wait three minutes to get the other half,
12 between March 1st and --
13 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah. If it's just -- that's
14 the message you put up and that fills up the
15 board, then, yes, you would have to wait three
16 minutes to get the back half of that message.
17 MR. BROWN: Okay. So --
18 MR. TAYLOR: So if you said, half-off sale,
19 and you want to know when or what the price is,
20 you'd have to wait another three minutes to get
21 the price or the date.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, Mr. Taylor, couldn't
23 you put the whole message on the same board?
24 MR. TAYLOR: It depends on what type of
25 board you have. Some boards are only
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
47
1 one-liners, some are two-liners. So if you
2 can't get it on there, you'd have to do it in
3 two messages.
4 MR. BROWN: Mr. Kelly, do you --
5 MR. KELLY: Well, I was going to just kind
6 of agree in concept because that was the
7 department's position and interpretation as it
8 related to the frequency, was the three-minute
9 rule, and that was based upon the Goldsbury
10 memorandum. However, you know, the -- after
11 consulting with the Office of General Counsel
12 and reading the plain language of the
13 definition, it became essentially unenforceable
14 for that three-minute rule and it was something
15 that the department, in terms of past history,
16 had not actually cited people for violation of
17 the three-minute rule, so it was -- it was a
18 policy that had never been enforced, the three
19 minutes, but it was not enforceable under the
20 terms of the code.
21 MR. BROWN: So basically what I'm
22 understanding, through the Chair, is that it's
23 dependent on the prototype, if you will, if one
24 is a one-liner versus a two-liner --
25 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah.
Diane M.
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48
1 MR. BROWN: -- is what you're going to end
2 up getting in terms of the eight-second or the
3 three-minute rule?
4 MR. TAYLOR: (Nods head.)
5 MR. BROWN: The second question is -- you
6 mentioned -- you weren't the first to mention
7 accidents. There's no documentation. Do we
8 have -- I mean, because that -- that did come up
9 as a concern in some of my other readings,
10 that -- it was alleged that it can create
11 accidents.
12 Do we have any documentation, if not in
13 Duval County or cities such as
14 maybe, that would support an increase of
15 accidents at intersections because people are
16 paying attention now more to the signage versus
17 driving?
18 Thank you.
19 MR. KELLY: There are -- obviously, I mean,
20 there's numerous studies in support of and
21 against, and we're going to compile a lot of
22 information for the workshops that are proposed
23 to be coming up.
24 You know, the one study that we relied on,
25 which was the
Diane M.
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1 [sic] study, there was no clear correlation;
2 however, the guidance from FDOT was a minimum
3 six-second static change, and so we -- we looked
4 at that and -- and the eight seconds, we felt,
5 was more restrictive than even the FDOT guidance
6 and the
7 MR. BROWN: Through the Chair to Mr. Kelly,
8 did I understand you to say that the State
9 policy standard is six seconds?
10 MR. KELLY: The six seconds applies to the
11 digital billboards.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kelly, in all due
13 fairness, the digital billboards are on the
14 sides of interstates, which is what the State
15 regulates. Aren't there spacing requirements
16 for those?
17 MR. KELLY: In the city of
18 per the settlement agreement, there's spacing
19 requirements.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: We're talking this -- you're
21 talking about the State code?
22 MR. KELLY: That's correct.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Are there spacing
24 requirements --
25 (Simultaneous speaking.)
Diane M.
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1 MR. KELLY: Yeah, I do want to make the
2 distinction, you know, versus the changing on
3 site as opposed to off site, and clearly the --
4 you know, the frequency. We have separation
5 rules for on-site signs of 200 feet as opposed
6 to, you know --
7 THE CHAIRMAN: But not for wall signs?
8 MR. KELLY: Correct.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. So we -- there is no
10 six-second -- I mean, I'm sorry, a six-second
11 DOT rule, but it applies to off-site signs on
12 interstates, and I think there's -- they're
13 1,500 feet, 2,000 feet apart from each other.
14 This bills affects all signs that are, you
15 know, 3 feet apart from each other on the wall
16 or 200 feet apart from each other on the side of
17 the road that's -- you know, advertising in
18 shopping centers.
19 MR. BROWN: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: And, Mr. Kelly, did I
21 understand you to say that the City has never
22 enforced the three-minute rule?
23 MR. KELLY: The frequency of change --
24 we've enforced what we felt was determined to be
25 animated or flashing. There's been probably
Diane M. Tropia, Inc.,
51
1 less than ten complaints --
2 THE CHAIRMAN: But those were all for
3 animated signs?
4 MR. KELLY: We determined them to be --
5 considered flashing or animated, not necessarily
6 a violation of the three-minute rule.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
8 Mr. Redman, you had a question?
9 MR. REDMAN: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 You mentioned the scrolling signs?
11 MR. TAYLOR: Uh-huh.
12 MR. REDMAN: Now, would they be regulated
13 on an eight-second --
14 MR. TAYLOR: Yes.
15 MR. REDMAN: -- rule as well?
16 That would mean, from the time that that
17 started scrolling, it had eight seconds to
18 finish the wording?
19 MR. TAYLOR: To complete its wording and
20 then it would hold. If it completed its wording
21 in four seconds, it would hold for the remainder
22 of the four and then it could change again.
23 As I mentioned, most signs don't scroll
24 constantly. I mean, they're there to get a
25 message out, but they're -- they're not trying
Diane M.
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1 to give you a sentence because most people know
2 that if you're driving along, you can't read a
3 full sentence because, obviously, you're going
4 by 45 miles an hour. You're looking at the
5 sign. You're not going to get the whole
6 message, and people are aware of this. So
7 they're trying to get up there --
8 Anybody in advertising will tell you
9 that -- I mean, to get a message out, it's short
10 and sweet. I mean, you're not going into a
11 wordy situation when you're trying to
12 advertise. You're basically out to say you have
13 a sale, half off, 50 percent off. It's -- it's
14 just basically getting a quick message out to
15 the public to let them know that they have
16 something to offer, which generates business in
17 their door, which generates revenue, which keeps
18 everybody in business.
19 MR. REDMAN: Right. Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions from the
21 committee?
22 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Steve, this queue is just
24 intermittent, so we need to check this out.
25 All right. Thank you, Mr. Taylor.
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1 MR. TAYLOR: Thank you.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: And our final speaker is
3 Mr. Sanders, Karl Sanders.
4 (Mr. Sanders approaches the podium.)
5 MR. SANDERS: Good afternoon or good
6 evening, Mr. Chairman.
7 Karl Sanders,
8 I'm here speaking on behalf of
9 Clear Channel Outdoor, which is one of the
10 billboard companies that you've heard about
11 today.
12 I'm going to try to make my comments
13 brief. I just want to kind of address a few
14 issues that were brought up today by various
15 speakers and hopefully provide a little bit of
16 clarity in this debate.
17 First and foremost, as someone mentioned,
18 the Planning Commission did defer this bill.
19 They asked that staff set up a workshop. They
20 asked for some additional studies that they
21 could review and have time to digest and go
22 through, and both sides agreed to do that.
23 In fact, Mr. Killingsworth and Mr. Brinton
24 and I and Mr. Dylan Reingold met this afternoon
25 to talk about exactly what kind of format that
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1 would be and when that would take place, so
2 we're looking forward to that to answer those
3 questions and hope to have a report for you --
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. Who participated
5 in that meeting?
6 MR. SANDERS: I'm sorry?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Who participated in that
8 meeting?
9 MR. SANDERS: Mr. Killingsworth,
10 Mr. Brinton, and myself, and Mr. Reingold.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
12 MR. SANDERS: At any rate, what we're
13 here -- obviously, the public hearing is open
14 tonight, but there are a few things that I
15 wanted to just make clear.
16 One, a lot of shots were taken at the
17 Planning Department for an allegedly
18 inconsistent report. If you read both reports,
19 there's no inconsistency whatsoever. If you
20 look at what they were reviewing at the time
21 of -- I think it was 2010-767, on changing the
22 rule to say three minutes -- or to say no more
23 than three minutes, what the report says is that
24 where you have a -- a high frequency of change,
25 you can have traffic safety problems. It's very
Diane M. Tropia, Inc.,
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1 logical. The question is, what's a high
2 frequency of change? They didn't take a
3 position on that then.
4 And so what you have before you today is a
5 bill sponsored by several council members that
6 says eight seconds is not high frequency. The
7 Planning Department has rendered an opinion that
8 said that they agree with that. Eight seconds
9 is not a high frequency that would result in
10 accidents. They based that upon lots of things,
11 not the least of which is the
12 Administration, which spends quite a lot of time
13 looking at this issue.
14 That being said, there was another comment
15 about -- lots of comments about billboards. I'm
16 not here to talk about billboards today. The
17 billboard regulations are set forth in a
18 settlement agreement, a very detailed settlement
19 agreement that both Mr. Brinton and Mr. Arpen
20 worked on years ago.
21 We are currently in litigation.
22 Mr. Brinton's group, Scenic
23 filed litigation against my client -- has got a
24 lawsuit against my client over what that actual
25 settlement agreement means, so it would be
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1 wholly inappropriate for me to speak with this
2 board as to what that is.
3 I will say this, though, about the
4 ordinance that's proposed before you tonight and
5 about the ordinance -- the sign regulations in
6
7 eight-second dwell time apply to billboards in
8
9 Well, I'll tell you that my client will
10 stipulate that it will if it's eight seconds,
11 but I'll also tell you that right now those sign
12 regulations in Chapter 326 do not regulate
13 billboards, they cannot regulate billboards.
14 Why can they not regulate billboards? Because
15 billboards are not allowed in
16 you can't write a law to regulate a use that's
17 not permitted.
18 I see my time is up, Mr. Chairman. I'm
19 available for --
20 THE CHAIRMAN: I took a few seconds of your
21 time. So if you have anything else, you can
22 close.
23 MR. SANDERS: I'm available for any
24 questions that you-all may have tonight.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sanders, so are you
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1 saying that this bill has nothing to do with
2 billboards?
3 MR. SANDERS: I've said that from day one.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Why is it that you're here
5 representing a billboard company and speaking on
6 it?
7 MR. SANDERS: Well --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it just public service
9 or --
10 MR. SANDERS: No, I -- for a number of
11 reasons. One, it provides clarity in the law
12 that's not there today.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: For who?
14 MR. SANDERS: I'm sorry?
15 THE CHAIRMAN: For who?
16 MR. SANDERS: For lots of people; for the
17 on-site sign guys, and it can provide clarity
18 for the off-site guys. If it's --
19 THE CHAIRMAN: How does it do that?
20 MR. SANDERS: If you let me finish, I'll
21 tell you.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
23 MR. SANDERS: It can provide clarity for
24 the off-site guys because if there's a time
25 limitation that the council, as a body, feels is
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1 a reasonable time limit for the dwell time for
2 changing messages, for off-site signs, then I
3 suspect -- at least my client would be willing
4 to stipulate to have that apply to our digital
5 billboards in
6 Right now, you have no regulations on the
7 books that could regulate --
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I'm little confused --
9 MR. SANDERS: -- digital --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me interrupt.
11 I'm a little confused. You said it didn't
12 have anything to do with billboards, but you're
13 saying that if we adopt this, your client is
14 going to stipulate that it applies to
15 billboards, so -- so it does have something to
16 do with billboards?
17 MR. SANDERS: Well, if you passed it at
18 eight seconds, it could. Right now you have
19 nothing. So what's better, two seconds or eight
20 seconds?
21 THE CHAIRMAN: So if we pass the bill, it
22 could apply to billboards?
23 MR. SANDERS: If the billboard companies
24 agreed to have it apply to them, yes.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I suspect, because
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1 you're here, they would probably take that
2 view. Wouldn't you --
3 (Simultaneous speaking.)
4 MR. SANDERS: Absolutely.
5 I mean, eight seconds is the industry
6 standard.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, I just --
8 MR. SANDERS: Why wouldn't we?
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I just think it's funny that
10 you say it doesn't when you're telling us now
11 that it could and probably will.
12 MR. SANDERS: It's not funny --
13 THE CHAIRMAN: That's all I'm saying --
14 (Simultaneous speaking.)
15 MR. SANDERS: -- I mean, it's just the law,
16 so --
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, matter of
18 perspective.
19 Questions for Mr. Sanders?
20 MR. BISHOP: (Indicating.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop.
22 MR. BISHOP: You asked the question I was
23 going to.
24 Thank you.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions for
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1 Mr. Sanders?
2 MR. REDMAN: (Indicating.)
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
4 MR. REDMAN: Thank you.
5 Now, did I understand correctly there, that
6 you would -- your company probably would adhere
7 to the eight-second rule, but that at this point
8 now there is no rule that you could put the
9 digital sign on a billboard with no regulation?
10 MR. SANDERS: There is no rule in place
11 right now that regulates how frequently a
12 digital billboard message can change, that's
13 correct. If the council -- if the council were
14 to adopt a rule that said eight seconds applies
15 across the board, my client would agree to be
16 bound by that rule.
17 MR. REDMAN: Okay. But right now there is
18 no rule, so right now your client could put a
19 digital sign up on that billboard at whatever --
20 you know, at three seconds --
21 MR. SANDERS: Yes, sir.
22 MR. REDMAN: -- legally?
23 MR. SANDERS: And I think that's the
24 opinion of the General Counsel's Office as well.
25 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
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1 MR. BISHOP: Mr. Chairman.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bishop.
3 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 This may be a question for either
5 Mr. Reingold or Mr. Kelly. Based on what
6 Mr. Sanders just said -- I think I heard him say
7 two different things, one of which, billboards
8 aren't permitted in
9 that there is no regulation on the books
10 regarding digital billboards in
11 Is that an accurate paraphrase of what you
12 said, Mr. Sanders?
13 MR. SANDERS: That's correct.
14 In the City's ordinance code, there are no
15 regulations for billboards --
16 MR. BISHOP: Okay. Mr. Kelly --
17 MR. SANDERS: -- operation of billboards.
18 MR. BISHOP: -- and/or Mr. Reingold, what,
19 in your opinion, is the state of
20 regulations regarding billboards within the city
21 limits?
22 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair to
23 Councilmember Bishop -- and I'll be very honest
24 about this. We are researching the issue that
25 Mr. Sanders has raised. I've actually had a
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1 conversation with him yesterday, and we are
2 researching the settlement agreement, looking at
3 it, determining about his -- his claims about
4 the application or nonapplication of this
5 ordinance to his billboards. I don't have a
6 definitive answer right here today, but we are
7 researching that issue.
8 MR. BISHOP: When do you think you might?
9 MR. REINGOLD: I need to get one as soon as
10 possible.
11 MR. BISHOP: Thank you.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sanders, I've got a
13 couple more questions for you.
14 (Mr. Sanders approaches the podium.)
15 THE CHAIRMAN: We had a similar matter
16 before this committee a few months ago,
17 2010-767, that was trying to clarify and
18 establish a three-minute hold time. You came
19 and spoke before this committee. Did that bill
20 have anything to do with billboards?
21 MR. SANDERS: Did I speak before this
22 committee?
23 THE CHAIRMAN: You spoke before the
24 council. You remember you told us --
25 MR. SANDERS: Oh, it may have been --
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1 okay. I think it may have been Rules or one of
2 the other committees. I didn't think it was
3 taken up here, but -- did that bill have
4 anything to do with billboards?
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Right.
6 MR. SANDERS: That bill had to do with
7 temporary directional signs and it had to do
8 with changing the definition of changeable
9 message devices, and we --
10 THE CHAIRMAN: And it created a
11 three-minute hold -- it clarified a three-minute
12 hold time.
13 MR. SANDERS: Well, it created one. It
14 didn't clarify it. It doesn't exist today,
15 so -- I don't know what you want me to say.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Did it have anything to do
17 with billboards, yes or no?
18 MR. SANDERS: Would that have had anything
19 to do with billboards? No. You can't regulate
20 a use that your laws don't permit. It would be
21 like passing a law saying -- or a charter
22 amendment that says -- I've got a Golden
23 Retriever -- you can have no Golden Retrievers
24 in Duval County. And that's the law that's on
25 the book. And then you turn around a year later
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1 and say, if you do have a Golden Retriever, here
2 are the hours within which you can take it for a
3 walk. It makes no sense.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, on that bill that was
5 pending before the council, did your client --
6 was it in the process of developing permit
7 applications for digital billboards in
8 Duval County?
9 MR. SANDERS: I have to go back and look at
10 when that was. I don't see what that has to do
11 with this, though.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: It's just a question, sir.
13 MR. SANDERS: Okay.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: So you don't know?
15 MR. SANDERS: If you've got questions about
16 the bill, I will answer questions about the
17 bill.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, the -- did your
19 client file any billboard permit applications
20 for digital billboards after that bill was
21 passed without the clarification in it?
22 MR. SANDERS: And that relates to this
23 bill?
24 THE CHAIRMAN: It's just a question,
25 Mr. Sanders. If you don't want to answer it,
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1 just say, "I don't want to answer it."
2 MR. SANDERS: The facts are what they are.
3 I think -- I think you know. I know that
4 you know. As a paid executive director of
5 Scenic
6 what we've done.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not a paid director of
8 Scenic
9 MR. SANDERS: Is that right?
10 THE CHAIRMAN: You need to get -- that's
11 exactly right.
12 MR. SANDERS: Okay.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: So yes or no?
14 MR. SANDERS: What's the question?
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's try it again,
16 Mr. Sanders. Did your clients apply for any
17 billboard permits after -767 was approved by the
18 council without the three-minute hold time in
19 it?
20 MR. SANDERS: We've applied for several,
21 yes.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: The digital billboards?
23 MR. SANDERS: Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. I
25 appreciate the answer.
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1 All right. Any other questions?
2 MR. REDMAN: Yes.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Redman.
4 MR. REDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 The time -- the digital billboards that you
6 are talking about, that you might put on here in
7 the county,
8 billboards that you have there now, that you
9 have permission to keep even though billboards
10 are not permitted in
11 MR. SANDERS: Through the Chair to
12 Councilman Redman, it's -- it's quite
13 complicated, but suffice it to say that the
14 settlement agreement requires my client --
15 required my client to take down a number of
16 boards. I think that -- since 1995, they've
17 taken down over half of their existing
18 inventory.
19 If we want to build a new board, the
20 agreement gives us a right to do that and
21 there's a process that we have to go through to
22 get there, and we have credits to build new
23 boards that we are pursuing now.
24 MR. REDMAN: I understand you have to take
25 down two billboards to put up one or three
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1 billboards to put up one; is that correct?
2 MR. SANDERS: Essentially. I mean, it's
3 defined in terms of sign faces, but that's
4 effectively what -- what it is.
5 MR. REDMAN: Okay. But in the end, you
6 would still have a billboard, possibly a new
7 billboard, and you could put digital lights
8 on -- digital signs on that --
9 MR. SANDERS: That is correct.
10 MR. REDMAN: -- is that what you're
11 saying?
12 MR. SANDERS: Yes, sir.
13 MR. REDMAN: Okay. Thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sanders, your client has
15 removed billboards from
16 the settlement agreement?
17 MR. SANDERS: Hundreds of them.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Were they allowed to keep
19 any up that the original charter amendment would
20 have required that they take down? Did the
21 settlement agreement allow some to stay up that
22 ordinarily would have had to come down?
23 MR. SANDERS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not --
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sanders --
25 MR. SANDERS: Mr. Chairman --
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: -- I'm trying to ask these
2 questions as simple as possible.
3 MR. SANDERS: Okay. Here's my answer.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
5 MR. SANDERS: Scenic
6 a lawsuit, as you know, against my client --
7 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't have anything to do
8 with Scenic
9 MR. SANDERS: -- raising -- you don't have
10 anything to do with Scenic
11 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I don't.
12 MR. SANDERS: Okay.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: I used to, but I resigned
14 before I rejoined the council in 2008.
15 MR. SANDERS: Scenic
16 a lawsuit against my company. We're in court
17 now and it would be wholly inappropriate for me
18 to answer those types of questions, and I will
19 not.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I just figured, since
21 you were up here talking about the ones that you
22 did take down, you might want to talk about the
23 ones that you hadn't -- that you were allowed to
24 leave up, but I'm mistaken.
25 Mr. Brown.
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1 MR. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair to
2 Mr. Sanders, I did hear that you-all are going
3 to have two committee meetings or two meetings
4 to discuss both sides?
5 MR. SANDERS: Yes, sir.
6 MR. BROWN: What is the -- the purpose of
7 it? Is it to -- for you-all to come together
8 and reach an understanding and then bring it
9 back before the council; is that what I'm
10 understanding the purpose of these two committee
11 meetings?
12 MR. SANDERS: Well, that may be more
13 appropriate for the director, but as I see it --
14 or for Mr. Brinton.
15 The Planning Commission made a
16 determination that they did not have enough
17 information to make a decision, and they asked
18 for us to provide additional information to
19 staff and to them, and so I think that purpose
20 is to give them as much information as possible
21 so they can make a well-reasoned and thoughtful
22 decision before they take their vote.
23 MR. BROWN: Okay. And this last question,
24 Mr. Chairman, is through the -- the counsel.
25 Any impact on this committee that we're putting
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1 together to have these two meetings --
2 understanding that there's litigation pending
3 right now, will there be a conflict, having this
4 meeting and discussion, making decisions here on
5 the council prior to that litigation that's
6 filed on this?
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Reingold.
8 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair to the
9 council member, I think -- there's not going to
10 be a separate committee set up. I think what
11 happened was the Planning Commission was a
12 little bit overwhelmed on Thursday, last week,
13 with all the information that was put before
14 them, and also -- so they wanted a little bit
15 more time, and thus the chair said, let's set up
16 some workshops so we can have a little bit
17 easier forum for our discussion.
18 And what Mr. Sanders explained was that
19 Mr. Brinton, Mr. Sanders, Mr. Killingsworth and
20 I sat down. We tried to hash out some ground
21 rules that we could present to the Planning
22 Commission chair and say, here's what we intend
23 to do. We're going to go to the chair to
24 discuss that, but essentially it would involve
25 maybe a workshop with some presentations from
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1 both sides, which will then be followed by
2 potentially another Planning Commission meeting
3 to discuss all the information that's presented
4 to them.
5 With respect to the confidentiality issues
6 or the lawsuit issues, the City is currently not
7 involved in any lawsuit. Whatever information
8 both sides can present to the Planning
9 Commission would be helpful. Whatever
10 information they feel they cannot divulge for
11 some reason, that's the decisions they have to
12 make, but the City itself is not involved in any
13 lawsuit at this time.
14 MR. BROWN: Okay. The second part of that
15 question, Mr. Dylan -- I understand that the
16 City is not involved. Is it the position of
17 this body to wait until that lawsuit is
18 dissolved before we move forward?
19 MR. REINGOLD: (Shakes head.)
20 MR. BROWN: What impact would it have on
21 us?
22 MR. REINGOLD: Through the Chair to the
23 council member, at this time we're essentially
24 looking at a decision about the definition about
25 changing message devices and it's certainly the
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1 will of this council and the Planning Commission
2 to move forward with a decision on that issue.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
4 Any other questions?
5 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you,
7 Mr. Sanders.
8 Our last speaker is Greg Breyfogle.
9 (Audience member approaches the podium.)
10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good evening,
11 Mr. Chairman.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: Did I pronounce your name
13 correctly?
14 AUDIENCE MEMBER: You did. Thank you.
15 Greg Breyfogle, Dektronics Inc.,
16
17 customers, the local sign companies, as well as
18 my customers, the businesses of
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Breyfogle, are you being
20 compensated for your appearance here tonight?
21 MR. BREYFOGLE: No, sir.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You're not? You're not on
23 the clock?
24 MR. BREYFOGLE: No, sir.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Go ahead.
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1 MR. BREYFOGLE: I just wanted to help
2 clarify a few things.
3 Mr. Brown had a few questions pertaining to
4 the eight-second versus the three-minute hold
5 time, and I -- you had a very good point, and
6 I'm going to help, hopefully, answer that
7 question.
8 When you have a longer hold time, say, a
9 three-minute hold time, somebody's trying to put
10 a message on the display, they want to get an
11 entire message up there. They're trying -- they
12 almost start to try to write a paragraph on the
13 display at that point, which takes very small
14 text and a lot of verbiage, which, in our
15 opinion, is very distracting because now that
16 passerby who's driving has to squint, look, to
17 try and read the little four-inch characters on
18 these displays and an entire paragraph in a
19 limited amount of time when you're driving by
20 the display.
21 If you go to, say, like, an eight-second
22 hold time, there's a good chance you can do --
23 per his -- you know, his example, you can do
24 half off flowers, you can put that up there in
25 very big text. A passerby can read that in a
Diane M. Tropia, Inc.,
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1 very short period of time. That display can
2 change in eight seconds. There's a good chance
3 they're going to catch that second half of that
4 message. Again, they're big characters, very
5 easy to read, and very -- and can read it very
6 quickly versus trying to read that paragraph.
7 That's one of the things I wanted to help
8 address.
9 The other thing is -- Mr. Chairman, you
10 brought up wall signs several times. I have two
11 of the largest sign companies here with me in
12
13 manufacturer of this type of product. In the
14 city of
15 has been open to digital displays for years
16 now. It's been kind of a free-for-all, as we
17 know. That's why we're here addressing this
18 today.
19 I have not -- these two sign companies have
20 not sold a wall sign in a shopping center that's
21 a digital display. I just want to make that
22 point. You're not going to see them on every
23 shopping center three feet apart.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you have a problem if
25 we prohibited digital wall signs in the
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1 ordinance?
2 MR. BREYFOGLE: It's something I would like
3 to think about before I make that answer.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
5 MR. BREYFOGLE: If you -- I mean, there's
6 nothing wrong with a wall sign. I mean, you're
7 not going to see a big customer base with that.
8 These things are made to get passerbys to turn
9 into your driveway to buy the product, the
10 flowers.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, why don't you think
12 about that and --
13 MR. BREYFOGLE: I will. I will.
14 The other thing -- you know, this arms race
15 thing -- like I said, it's been a free-for-all
16 in
17 up and down the highways, you see some digital
18 displays. You don't see them at every business,
19 every street corner. If there was going to be
20 an arms race, it would have happened.
21 I mean, they're cost prohibitive. You're
22 not -- most businesses can't afford them.
23 There's a very select few that can, and that's
24 why you see the number out there today that
25 there is. Yeah, there's a few more coming up,
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1 but there's a few coming down too. You know,
2 people go out of business, displays come down.
3 You're not going to see it on every street
4 corner. I mean, these things have been open in
5 many cities for a long time and you don't see it
6 everywhere, like you guys are talking about.
7 Three minutes is up. Any questions?
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir.
9 Questions, yes. I'm trying to get this
10 queue.
11 Mr. Bishop, were you still on there?
12 MR. BISHOP: Yes.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: And Mr. Brown, I think.
14 MR. BISHOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 Did I understand you to basically imply
16 that changing message signs are safer than
17 static signs and quicker changes are better than
18 longer changes and that they're -- that they're
19 safer; is that what I'm hearing you say
20 essentially?
21 MR. BREYFOGLE: I never said "safer."
22 I said that they're much easier to read if
23 they change at a reasonable amount of time,
24 which I -- my opinion, eight seconds is a
25 reasonable amount of time. It's -- it gives the
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1 ability for that business to get their message
2 out there without having to type a paragraph up
3 there that's very hard to read.
4 MR. BISHOP: You're right, I tried to put
5 words in your mouth. You didn't actually use
6 the word "safer." That's just the way it kind
7 of came across to me.
8 Thank you.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bishop.
10 Mr. Brown.
11 MR. BROWN: Yes. Through the Chair to the
12 speaker, you mentioned cost and that -- cost
13 effective or not -- my words are "affordable."
14 What's the average cost for one of these signs?
15 MR. BREYFOGLE: A starter, for a normal
16 pylon-type sign, to do a two-sided display,
17 you're talking over $20,000 easy.
18 MR. BISHOP: Over $20,000 --
19 MR. BREYFOGLE: That's right.
20 MR. BROWN: -- for a sign?
21 MR. BREYFOGLE: Correct.
22 MR. BROWN: And a billboard -- well, I
23 could pretty much answer that question -- to pay
24 to have it for a month, but -- make sure I
25 understand. You said 20,000 for the average
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1 size?
2 MR. BREYFOGLE: Average, on-premise,
3 starter display.
4 MR. BROWN: About how many do you have
5 right now up in
6 number?
7 MR. BREYFOGLE: I don't have that on me.
8 We did do a count at one point between the
9 sign companies. I don't know what that
10 information is.
11 MR. BROWN: Okay. If you can get that and
12 just call my office. I -- I'm just interested
13 because it -- it's a little pricey for me, and I
14 think that it's probably more targeted towards
15 larger companies, definitely not for the smaller
16 companies. In my community, in my district, I
17 don't -- I don't see anyone being able to --
18 maybe a church or something -- being able to
19 afford a sign like that, but a lot of the small
20 mom-and-pop stores probably would not. There
21 will be -- and make sure I understand, they'd
22 definitely have access, if they could, but the
23 likelihood is what I'm hearing you say is --
24 probably not going to oversaturate the area
25 because of the -- the cost?
Diane M. Tropia, Inc.,
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1 MR. BREYFOGLE: Correct.
2 MR. BROWN: Thank you.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: What size are we -- I mean,
4 what size are you talking about when you
5 say "average"?
6 MR. BREYFOGLE: Like replacing a -- you
7 know, the manual changer boards, you know,
8 four-by-eights, you know, average.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: A four-by-eight will cost
10 you 20 grand --
11 MR. BREYFOGLE: Yeah.
12 THE CHAIRMAN: -- two sided?
13 MR. BREYFOGLE: Or above.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
15 Any other speakers care to address the
16 committee?
17 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any other questions,
19 I'm sorry, from the committee?
20 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing no one,
22 then, the public hearing will be continued until
23 February 15th, and we have no other action on
24 the bill.
25 Thank you all for coming tonight on that
Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,
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1 issue.
2 Item 10, 2010-901, we have a public hearing
3 scheduled this evening.
4 Are there any speaker cards?
5 MS. DAVIS: No.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Seeing none, the
7 public hearing is also continued till
8 February 1st, no other action on that bill.
9 The Rules Committee today -- or yesterday,
10 adopted a substitute which we will take up at
11 the appropriate time.
12 Turning to page 5, items 11 through 16 are
13 all read second, as is the last item on page 6,
14 item 17, read second.
15 Anything else to come before the
16 committee?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: (No response.)
18 STAFF MEMBERS: (No response.)
19 THE CHAIRMAN: I appreciate everyone being
20 here on a Wednesday. We will meet again in
21 thirteen days, on the 1st of February, and we'll
22 see you then.
23 Thank you all. Good night.
24 This meeting is adjourned.
25 (The above proceedings were adjourned at
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Diane M. Tropia, Inc.,
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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3 STATE OF
4 COUNTY OF DUVAL :
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6 I, Diane M. Tropia, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 Dated this 23rd day of January, 2011.
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Diane M.
Tropia, Inc.,